View Full Version : OSG1 - Team One - Da n00bz


Sirian
Apr 10, 2004, 08:56 AM
This is a succession game for the ancient classic, Master of Orion, sponsored by Realms Beyond for our players. Thanks to CivFanatics for continuing to supply us with a home for all our succession game activities -- mostly Civ3 SG's, which I note have spread to the point where there's now a "Succession game of the month" starting up. Go SG play!

So... this is the thread for Team One. Teams have been organized over at Realms Beyond (http://www.lurkerlounge.com/realmsbeyond/forums/), where we're just gearing up our Master of Orion activity. Anyone interested in MOO1 gaming is invited to pay RB a visit. We're running a tourney, much like the Epics for Civ3, and now we're (obviously) also expanding to MOO1 succession games.

The players on this team's roster will take turns playing the game. Ten game turns per round. Each player reports their results and hands off to the next player. Fun for all ages. At least one other team will be playing this same map. Tune in to their thread to follow their results.

If you are a member of another team, you should not be reading this thread unless your team has finished the game. Thanks. :)

NOTE: The game involved here is the original Master of Orion. This thread has nothing to do with MOO3. RB participation with and interest in MOO3 died out almost a year ago.

OK, here we go with this SG.


Difficulty Level: Average
Map Size: Large
Race: Bulrathi
Opponents: Five
Color: Red
Minimum Victory Level: Conquest

(See the Imperium tournament rules at Realms Beyond Orion (http://www.realmsbeyond.net/orion/) for more details about "victory level").


Scenario: Let's pound some dirt. Boots on the ground. Knock some heads. Mix it up. :hammer:

Ten turns per player. 24 hours Got It, up to 48 hours to play and post.


Team One - Da n00bz - ROSTER

Sirian
Charis
Jabah
Justus II
Isit
Garath


- Sirian

Sirian
Apr 10, 2004, 11:15 AM
The first task in a game of Master of Orion is to examine the playfield. Identify all stars within three parsecs of your homeworld. For this game, there are three such stars.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2300ad.jpg

The yellow star selected in the shot above, plus the two green stars, are the important stars for now. These are stars our initial colony ship can reach immediately.

Generally, the best plan is to pick the star most likely to have a planet with a normal environment. Stars are rated by color. The color of the star determines its range of possibilities.

Yellow
Green
Red
White
Blue
Purple

That's the color order from best to worst, for likelihood of good quality planets. Individually circumstances can defy probability, buck the trends, but generally, to open a game, it is best to choose the likeliest looking site and send your colony ship there first thing.

This time we have a single yellow planet. That is clearly the most likely to have a habitable planet, and if it does, the most likely to have a larger planet. (Bigger is better).

In a few circumstances, other concerns might override star color. Or, if there are more than one of the best available color type in range, you have to choose between them. In these cases, you should look at the other stars and weigh additional factors, but I'm not going to go over all of that now.

So the first command is to send the colony ship to the yellow star, and then to send the scouts to the two green stars. We want to scout those green stars in case there turns out not to be a habitable world at the yellow star. We'd want to know to which green star (if any) to then redirect our colony ship.


Now it is possible to build more scout ships immediately, but I tend not to do that except maybe on a small map. So I will let the homeworld build more factories while we wait for the ships to travel.

Click next turn, next turn, next turn. Our colony ship arrives at Gion.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2303ad.jpg

That's good news! :band: Not only a habitable world, but a large one.

I have to decide immediately whether to settle. If I pass up the chance, so I can see what the scouts report back, I won't get another chance to settle at Gion for a full turn. You can only settle during the events phase, "between turns". Well, this size 80 planet is plenty good enough, so I order the ship to settle.

Colony ships don't always go first. Rather, the stars are (mostly) numbered from left to right in rows, top to bottom. The game handles events at each numbered star in turn, so stars with lower ID numbers (as far as the game is concerned) are handled first. This usually means ones closer to the top of the map go first. On some maps you get lucky and can read scout reports before deciding whether to settle immediately, other maps not.

So here are the scout reports, from the same turn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2303ad-a.jpg

A hostile environment. Not the best news, but in this case not bad news.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2303ad-b.jpg

A second habitable planet. Smaller than the size 80, so the local terrain has played out according to probability, this time, and we have been rewarded for going straight to the yellow star. That doesn't always happen, but you either play the probabilities and come out ahead most of the time, or you play hunches and take your chances.


Always remember that immediately after your first colony ship settles, you are relieved of a significant maintenance cost on that ship. This tends to be worth TWO ticks on the ecology slider. That is, once the money that was maintaining that pricey ship is freed up, your total available spending goes up. Yet the cost of cleaning up after your factories has not gone up. The game has not adjusted your spending sliders at the homeworld, though. The same number of ticks are allocated to ecology after the colony ship is gone as were before it was gone. Only now, each tick is worth more (per tick) than before, so you need fewer total ticks into ecology to do the waste cleanup.

Short version: you can reduce Eco slider spending by two ticks! I move those from Eco to Industrial to build more factories. The Eco slider still says Clean, which is what we want.


Since we're playing on Average, our homeworld started with 50m colonists. We're ready to send some to Gion. (On higher difficulty, you start with 40m and won't be immediately ready to send colonists). In this case, we have 58m, and it would be ideal to send 8, leaving the homeworld at 50m, or exactly half full, which is where population growth is the fastest. However, in this case I'm only going to send 7m, and let me explain why.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2303ad-c.jpg

While it is best for pop growth to send 8m, there isn't a huge difference between being at 50% full or 51% full. However, if I send 8m, the Eco slider changes to say Waste, and I would have to add a tick to do all the cleanup. If I send only 7m, the Eco slider does not change to say Waste. I can do all the cleanup without adding a tick.

So we have a choice. We can have our cake OR we can eat it, but not both. We can have the absolute best pop growth rate for the next turn, but we spend a whole extra tick on waste cleanup. Or we can spend the minimum possible on waste cleanup and send one less colonist on this turn. The pop growth difference is smaller than the Eco spending difference. Thus I keep one colonist behind to save a tick on waste. That's one extra tick applied to factory construction NOW when it counts more.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2303ad-d.jpg

Or, in this case, one extra Scout 2 ship produced next turn.

(If you don't know what a Scout 2 ship is, you might want to read My MOO1 Tutorial (http://sirian.warpcore.org/moo1/tutorial.html) to learn about how to play this game or read my generic advice. I talk about Scout 2 ships there, along with a lot of other basics that I don't intend to regurgitate here).

Checking all stars within six parsecs of our initial two colonies, I count eleven, in addition to the four we've already scouted. So we need at least eleven Scout 2 ships to send one to each star. We will get five on this turn.

Having sent transports to Gion, scrapped all the default ship designs and built our own Scout 2 and Colony designs, and ordered up a round of Scout 2's, we're done on this turn. Next turn:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2304ad.jpg

We have 54m colonists. If I send 4m, the Eco slider again says Waste, so I send 3m instead. Continuing to build scouts, we will have six more this turn. That would be eleven, the exact number we need. I order our Scout 2 ships, one apiece, to scout some of the stars. I select coreward stars first. Rimward stars will be less likely to be in reach of our rivals, so those wait until next turn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2305ad.jpg

We have produced six more scouts. That's all we need for now, so I change spending back to Industrial for factory construction. I send out the rest of the scouts.

We still need to send more colonists to Gion. My usual rule of thumb is to send more each turn, keeping the homeworld at half, and stopping when the second colony reaches about one third of its maximum. That being a large planet, size 80, it takes more from the homeworld to reach that target than a smaller planet would.

However, this time when I try to send colonists (we have 54 again) I find that sending more than 1m changes the Eco slider to say Waste. Well, sending 1m just won't do. So I add a tick to the Eco slider and look to see what the maximum number is that I can send before it changes (with that added tick) to say Waste again. I find that I can send 9m at the new setting before I would need to add a second extra tick to complete the cleanup.

I go ahead and send the 9m! :eek:

Why, you ask? Won't that cause the homeworld to fall below the half-full point and hurt pop growth? Yes, it will. But in this case, the homeworld's loss would be the second colony's gain. That is, we DO lose a tiny bit of pop growth on homeworld by doing this, but that is countered by gaining pop growth rate at the new colony a bit sooner. I can send three each turn for three turns, or I can send nine right now and minimize overspending on cleanup for this turn. I go ahead and send the nine. Homeworld will be back to half full in a couple of turns, and those were going to be shipped offworld anyway, so the homeworld doesn't really lose much. We're talking 0.5 BC per turn for each colonist removed, so figure a total of 3 BC for six extra colonists missing one turn, and 1.5 BC for three missing another turn. One tick on the Eco slider is worth several BC, so really, homeworld breaks even but second colony gets a tiny boost. Make sense?

These kinds of small things are not really crucial. Some may even be debatable, and I don't always bother. In the long run, a few BC here or there, even in the very beginning, won't matter. The opening is a good time to learn about small details, though, to help get players thinking about what it means to spend here or spend there, and what it means to speed growth curve here, or slow it there, or make a tradeoff on this vs that.

Sirian
Apr 10, 2004, 11:57 AM
With our scouts now built, and homeworld waiting to regrow to half-full before any more colonists would be sent out, there's nothing to do. From 2305AD to 2308, I click Next Turn, next turn, next turn. Our Scout 2 ships are fanning out nicely.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2308ad.jpg

Gion is nearing one-third full, which it will reach when it has 27m, and it's nearly there now. I wouldn't have to send any more, as it is now up and running, but I decide to go ahead and send 3m more anyway, and those will be the last. No more being sent off the homeworld, possibly ever again. (We'll see).

As you can see, the homeworld is half full, still. Now it will start to grow. There are already more factories than population.

If we want to max the homeworld before moving on to research and colony ship construction, the way I would do it is to keep going with factories at max rate. When factories get into the 160-165 range, it will take only three, maybe three and a half turns to max them out from there. That would be the moment to send colonists from Gion back to Ursa. Whatever Ursa's got at that point, probably about 80m or thereabouts, its growth will be slowing as it moves away from the fat part of the growth curve and into the narrow, marginal region. It would take a while to grow those.

You have to remember the transit time from Gion back to Ursa, though. That's three turns. Figure Ursa may grow at up to 2m per turn. You don't want to waste people by sending too many. So figure 2m per turn self-growth at Ursa, that would be 6m. So if Ursa were at, say, 82m when you get to 165 factories, and figure to add 6m more by the time any arrive from Gion, that would be 88m. Safe to send 12m from Gion, and have them arrive right at or around the time the homeworld is maxing factories. You'd come close to maxing pop and industry at the same time, and the homeworld would be ready to rock and roll on colony ship building at the best possible rate, while the second colony could start research.

That would be a standard opening for me. A few things could change it. Up to that point, no research has been done. Is it worthwhile to research anything before finishing off factories? Perhaps. +10 Terraforming might be worth grabbing sooner, if available, especially if your second colony is small. Industrial Tech 9, maybe, particularly for the Meklars. Research costs are tied to difficulty level, so for someone like me who plays mostly on Impossible, doing research before maxing factories on the homeworld is less attractive. Here on Average might be another story. I suppose one question to ask is whether we want to do what works best at this level, or to pursue what I consider sound techniques that hold up on higher levels.

The Silicoids would be the one race for which this opening does not function. They require a whole different approach. We'll cross that bridge another time.

And of course, our rivals may not cooperate. If somebody shows up with colony ships trying to settle worlds we'd like to grab, we might want to consider building a few ships to man a blockade, in which case the above plan would be tossed. But that too is a bridge we cannot yet cross.


As I click through to 2309AD, our first Scout 2 reports back.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2309ad.jpg

Ultra Poor? That's not good. Plus that is a coreworld world, possibly in the line of fire of a neighbor who may lie in that direction. Ultra Poor worlds are enormously difficult to stand up and to defend. They can make life... interesting.

Another scout report, more bad news.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2309ad-a.jpg

A mineral Poor planet. Not as bad as ultra poor. In fact, way better. That system may be in a rear guard spot, or maybe not. We'll have to see if there is anybody to our south.


So. I have one more turn to go on my round. Let me do something I would NOT do in single player (solo or tournament). Let me drop a few BC to the tech slider and check our first-gen tech options for the three fields that contribute to early expansion.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2309ad-b.jpg

Need 3 BC per field to be sure to kick off research. (Try being ultra stingy and put only 1 BC, see where that gets you!) I want to check three fields, so I allocate 9BC.

Here we go.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2309ad-c.jpg

That is good news. First-clean cleanup tech is present.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2309ad-d.jpg

Hmm. We're missing +10 Terraforming. Not good. But we have both of the other options, and most importantly for THIS map, we have Controlled Barren. Since we not only have a barren planet in reach, but it is bridging the way to a bunch of other stars, it is good that we can learn the tech quickly and grab it quickly. I choose Barren.

The other tech is also great. Improved Eco? Waste cleanup, helps immensely with spurring growth.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2309ad-e.jpg

Aha. Range 4 tech, but not Range 5. This will afffect our expansion plans. Note the cost is only 270BC. The cost on Barren is the same. If we research both together, we could then swap and research both waste cleanup techs together. After learning all four of these techs, we'd gain an important early edge in economics, and then would want to open the other three fields and catch them up.

One more scout arrives, and that completes the action on my round.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2309ad-f.jpg

Another habitable planet, beyond that barren planet. It really is good that we have Barren tech available.

Now for some strategizing.

Sirian
Apr 10, 2004, 12:47 PM
Here you can see stars I've scouted. (Unscouted systems show as gray dots). Also shown is the location of the two poor planets.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2310ad.jpg

Now for the first MOO1 dotmap. :D

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2310ad-a.jpg

A key to formulating expansion strategy is understanding PRECISELY which techs you need to be able to put a colony ship at each given star. You also have to find out which techs are missing from your tree, and in some cases you may learn that a gap will shift your strategy.

I've used color in the above graphic to differentiate potential expansion moves. If anybody is colorblind and needs help with the graphic, let me know.

The pink arrows represent an expansion path that could be done without having to learn any technology. That is, we could start building colony ships at any time and advance them along that route, each stop in turn. If either of the as-yet unexplored stars on the end of that route were hostile, that would halt the chain there.

That is, the planets in the pink chain are each three parsecs or less from the previous link in the chain. We could go from Ursa (T) to the ocean planet (O). Only AFTER settling the (O) would we be able to grab the Mineral Poor arid planet (A). And only after settling there would the next one in the chain come into 3-parsec range.

The yellow arrows indicate moves that could be made after we research Range 4 tech. With range 4 fuel cells, we could settle the poor arid planet without having to have settled the ocean planet first. Likewise, if the fourth planet in the pink chain should turn out to be hostile, we could jump from the ocean planet to the last planet in the pink chain with Range 4.

The white arrows indicate moves we could make after learning Controlled Barren environment. We would have to go through the barren planet to make any of these moves. Settling the barren planet pulls that ultra poor arid planet into 3-parsec range. (You can check by asking a scout to move from one to another and looking at the ETA, then cancelling the order). We could then follow the rest of the white chain without having need of Range 4 tech. That is, we could do the entire white chain just by learning Controlled Barren.

The orange chain, and all moves marked by orange arrows, would require BOTH Controlled Barren and Range 4 techs to be researched first.

The red arrows point to planets six parsecs away, which we will not be able to grab until either learning Range 6 or better tech, or being able to put a Reserve Fuel Tank on a colony ship.


Now suppose we didn't have access to controlled barren tech. We would be UNABLE to advance along either the white or orange lines. ALL of those moves would be impossible without acquiring either advanced range tech, or advanced environment tech. We might open the way with Controlled Tundra or Controlled Dead, if they are available, but that would take longer.

Suppose we did not have Barren tech, but we did have Range 5 tech. If we had Range 5 tech, we could skip past the blockade of the barren planet by following moves marked with light blue arrows in the picture below.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2310ad-b.jpg

And of course, if all of this fails, if we had Range 4 tech and then a range drought in our tree until Range 7 or even Range 8 :eek: and we had an environment gap, with nothing available before Controlled Inferno, then we could still get around the problem by focusing on construction techs to miniaturize those Reserve Fuel Tanks to fit them onto a large class ship with a colony base.

A key to deciding early research priorities is to look at the map, see where you can get without learning any tech at all, then see where else you can get to if you learn low level techs that are available to you. When there is only one propulsion option, you take it and make the best of it. But when you have both, you need to be clever about your choices. Should you research both? Should you grab Range 4 quickly and try to skip Range 5? Should you forget Range 4 because it won't help you much and skip right to Range 5? Or should you do both, grabbing 4 because it just can't wait, but then also doing 5 because that too is worthwhile?


One thing we're not ready to do right away is research. I put spending back to factory construction. The pitstop on the tech slider was strictly to see what our options were so we could plan and I could do all this blabbing. :lol: Now that we know which techs are available, we need to build up the home planet quite a bit before we start to think about shifting our spending.

In this game, we have seven scouts due to arrive early in next player's turn. There may be an artifacts world, which would change the situation. There may be AI's lurking. Anywhere we find AI's, especially AI colony ships, we need to pay attention and make some choices. Military to guard systems we want? Prioritizing techs? Should we research both Range and Barren, or focus on one and let the other wait? Should we build colony ships ASAP and follow the pink line, or get after those techs immediately so we can do the white or orange moves?

These are all questions to be explored on next player's turn, even though the action will mostly involve pressing Next Turn and watching factories being built.

Oh look who's up. Charis! My man. :hammer: Step right up and deliver us into the hands of our expansion strategy plan. You're in the hot seat now. Lead us on to glory.

Da n00bz - President Charis's inauguration (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2310ad.zip)


Team One - Da n00bz - ROSTER

Sirian
Charis <<<< UP NOW
Jabah <<< On Deck
Justus II
Isit
Garath


- Sirian

Justus II
Apr 10, 2004, 04:41 PM
Checking in, and :goodjob: on the 'dotmap'! I usually try to settle what I can, then prioritize the techs I need to get to more desirable planets, but I like the idea of "pathing" your expansion, and showing how different tech options really create distinct courses of action, allowing for a more informed (and more integrated) tech choice.

One question, I know you did the tech 'preview' for the purposes of SG discussion, but do you normally only open a few fields of research, or all at once. I will sometimes invest a little to get an idea of my choices, but tend to do all 6 fields at once, but I see that that is somewhat wasteful, if I have no intentions of researching those areas early anyway. Is that why you only chose those 3 categories?

Charis
Apr 10, 2004, 06:24 PM
Lions and tigers and BEARS, Oh my!! Not one to be scared at being
WAY over his depth and even less scared of being thought a fool,
Charis Ursus signed on for a task he had never undertaken. His grasp
of the subtleties of the ways of Orion were smaller than any could imagine,
and yet his comrades were both honorable and bright men, and he
expected to learn much.

Looking at the start, Charis Ursus tried to gauge what he would do
first. Our starting area looks quite nice, and his guess is that two
other races are going to have prime starts and two will have duds, with
the last an average one. Who would they be though? Our opponents were
Psilons (uh oh), Silicoids, Sakkra, Darloks and Alkari. The latter make
for a game both with ground pounders and strong fighter pilots.

The start does look good, with the three range-3 stars as pointed out by
Sirian. My first impression would be to send the colony to the yellow right
away and scout the two greens. The only reason I wouldn't is because there are
no NEW stars opened up by a yellow colony, and I would see if a green one might
support a good population and help open up new venues quickly.

> We chose the yellow star immediately.
Ok, at least my second choice is a good one, and straight yellow makes sense.
A posteriori Gion turned out better. That was the most likely result, although
Imri isn't bad either.

How many colonists to send? Sirian likes to send enough to put homeworld at half,
and chose one left due to micromanaging efficiency (I like that trick, btw).
How many would I have sent? 25 (!) I'll explain the math in another post.

Scout2 ships were ordered up, as expected, and he got the typical 5.
I also like how you found out research options for the three best fields quickly.
Before I read what you pick, let me see how I would have fared.
Reduced Waste 80%, a fine tech, and no choice to make.
Control Barren or Improved Eco? Interesting, we do have a barren in first ring.
I have to look up what Improved Eco does. Eliminates waste for a fixed cost.
While that's nice, quite nice, we're already heading for Reduced Waste. With a
barren so close and other planets looking a little dudly, I favor Control Barren.
> We chose Barren "since we not only have a barren planet in reach, but it is bridging
the way to a bunch of other stars" Yay!
Range 4 fuel cells is also a nice one, pretty expected.

Again for practice, I consider a dotmap before looking at Sirians...
I like Imra the ocean one soon and Klystrom after that. Yes, it's ultra poor
but it's coreward and opens up more planets. Everything else depends on how the
upcoming scouting goes. I look at Sirian's dotmap and see just how 'crude' my thinking
is :P At least it makes complete sense, he's not speaking Greek.

How do we stand? Ursus pop 56 factories 61 growth 3, pop 32 factories 4, growth 5
Total net income (after clean eco) is 57+16 = 73.

What would it look like if I sent 25 instead of 7 colonists way back when?
Well, 24 after using the tick trick. I play through that and see, the results are:
In 2310, Ursus is pop 54 fac 58 gro +2, Gion is 36/6/+3. Total income is 54+20 = 74.

Just to compare apples to oranges I'm going to send BACK colonists to Ursus to equal
what went went on in the 'real game', and compare in the year 2413. (AFTER my real turn was done!!)
Sending 7 : U 65/79/+3 G 39/10/+2, Inc 70+23=93
Sending 24: U 68/76/+7 G 38/13/+2, Inc 70+25=95 (after sending 5 pop BACK to Ursus)

What's the difference? The total population is +2 higher, the total factories are
the same, with a few more on the colony and a few less home, and income is +2 higher
due to the pop being higher. That's with an extra send-back of 5 that I may not have
actually done, just to make the comparison cleaner. So sending enough pop to put you
closer to 34-40% of max, not 50% of max is optimal from a growth point of view. The
downside... sending colonists off Ursus slowed down my Scout2 production, for a 1-2
turn delay getting scouts out. That's not insignificant, but is situation dependent.
If you need less scouts, send more colonists right away.

OK, back to reality, and after all that verbiage, I'm ready to start my turn.
Should I hope to find wonderful news that will require bold decisions, or non-descript
planets found that won't rock the boat?! Fortune favors the bold!
Note this report will be more detailed than most, as I'm looking for any comments
on moves that I can get. I'll be short on screenshots as I don't know how to take them
just yet. (Note later: I found I can do them with DOSBOX at the cost of jerky play)

2310 - Hit return...

2311 -
- The gray NE star is Mu Delphi. Hostile Inferno 40.
- The blue NW star is Incedius. Hostile Tundra 30. Double ouch.
- The green E star is Argus. Ocean 70. That's better!
- The red SE star is Gienah. *ARTIFACT* Minimal (better than hostile) max
Free tech: Industrial Tech 8, factories cost 8. Cool!

That DOES impact our plans. Gienah is 6 parsecs away but can make it via hop via
the 'purple' path in the dotmap. I would have to think this planet takes priority,
and sets our agenda for colonization. The only question is when. I think when Ursus can
build the colony ships in 4-5 turns it will be time to go. No real need to push
faster because we need four hops, or two hops with range 4 tech. Actually, that does
suggest accelerating research toward range 4.

Our rate to a colony ship now is 10 turns, so we're not even close. Factories it is!
To get it down to 5 turns will take double the factories, and as we're now producing
about 7 per year we could start to build colony ships in about 9-10 turns. It would
be ideal if before year 14 we had the range 4 tech. Is that possible? At 270 RP
with an average 1.4-1.5 of minimum, we would need to spend 27 RP per year to make it
in time. How feasible is that? It would cut our factory production rate well over half.
Nope, can't do it, too short sight. Voices ring in my head... "I urge you to think
long term!" Max factories continues to be the path here.

2312 -
- Space combat!! At the north green star the Sakkras want some... they get some,
as our unarmed scout chases off an unarmed colony ship. (gulp)
- Second space combat! Just below there, a small yellow star, we find to have a
planet and some ships in orbit. It's a green flagged star, the Sakkra.
Planet name: SSSLA. 5 spectre, 5 scout, 1 fighter, 1 colony ship. Population 95
Industry 51. 96? Must be their home world (?)

We reached the north green star the same turn as the colony ship, since we now get
the report that the system is called Iranha.

I interpret the above that the Northern edge central yellow stars are home to Sakkra.
In fact, the small yellow star (Sssla) is almost surely their capital. These guys are
close, and we're going to be in conflict for worlds sooner rather than later. I think
I'm glad I have the turn finding out this info rather than having to take it to them :P

The fact that we chased off a colony ship and that we're in their first ring means
that at some point, perhaps not long, the Sakkra will come back armed. Do I want to
do something about that? No, not really. It pulls off too far away, it would slow our
growth considerably, and we're good at ground combat, not ship combat.
(Hmm, he sent his colony ship to an uninhabitable world? Go ahead, bring an escort!)

- I send the retreated ship back to Klystron, where it will be ready to visit the next
unexplored planet after we settle the ocean world.
- The good news... if I understand the map and technology correctly, the Sakkra can *NOT*
contend with any planets with us for quite some time, as the only border ones are
uninhabitable and hostile (tundra). They'll need tundra and range 5 (4?) to reach us.
- Continue to max shields. Note that to optimize overall pop/factory growth I should
send more colonists from Ursus to Gion, but what I think I want to do is to emphacize
not total growth right now but Ursus, to be able to crank on colony ships.
In fact I *almost* want to pull back about 8 colonists from Gion, but as the population
will sustain the factories through the first 2 colony ships, there's no advantage.

2313 -
- Scout red start up North - Spica Mineral Poor Jungle 80.
- Next turn, as we stick to factories.

2314 - Nothing.
2315 -
- No report IBT
- Ursus: 70/102/+3 (+10 fact) net inc 84. Would take 7 years for a colony
- Gion: 42/18/+2 (+3.7 fact) net inc 30.
Optimal growth swap would be 7 colonists to Gion, but we stick with Ursus factory push.

2316 - Nothing.
2317 -
- No report IBT
- Ursus: 74/123/+2 (+12 fact) net inc 97. Would take 6 years for a colony
- Gion: 49/26/+3 (+3.7 fact) net inc 37.
In a few turns there will be more factories than we could man at Ursus, so I have
a few choices: let that happen anyway, send over a few colonists, or start a colony.
I think we can wait 1-2 more turns then crank out colony ships and our factories
will be twice pop, while Gion has enough pop to transport some people.

2318 - Nothing.
2319 -
- No report IBT
- Ursus: 78/149/+2 (+12 fact) net inc 112. Would take 6 years for a colony
- Gion: 53/36/+2 (+5.5 fact) net inc 44.
Ursus is only 7 factories from max for pop, it's time for a ship. I go near max
on ship, backing off two ticks keeping 6 turn ETA but building a few more factories.

I've shifted Gion to research, as it will be sending troops soon, as as we would
like range 4 tech sooner rather than later. Our next leader can throttle back if
this isn't smart, but for now, I'm spending 2/3 propulsion and 1/3 planetology, 44 RPt.

2320 - (no report IBT)
- Ursus: 80/150/+2 (+1.8 fact, ship in 5) net inc 112.
- Gion: 53/36/+2 (+5.5 fact, 45 RP) net inc 45.

There we have it, some interesting analysis and decisions to make up front, and an
uneventful remainder of the turn which is fine.

Recommendation: send some troops from Gion to Ursus in 1 turns, so that you can continue
them on along to the new colony, and save 3 turns in getting them there.
I would send to Imra (max 55) 23 colonists, although 18 ish to drop Gion to 40 would work.
After it's colonized, get a couple more scout2's and explore/blockade.

Thoughts? Comments? Give me da prod! :hammer:

Da Bears OSG1 2320 AD Save 4 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2320ad.zip) -- To Imra!

Charis

Matrix
Apr 10, 2004, 07:49 PM
Where does this succession game come from all of a sudden? :confused: I like it though. :) (Not that I'll take a part of it. No time.)

Bam-Bam
Apr 10, 2004, 09:01 PM
Matrix,

Some of us RB folks have been playing (some still playing) Galactic Civilizations for several months now. You've probably seen our succession games in the main "all other games" forum. Sirian stopped playing GalCiv about two months ago--the game having lost its legs for him. Suffice to say, its got some balance issues. Sirian had intended to run an RBCiv Epics style tourny for GalCiv, but the game has not had kind of patchs to balance the game that Civ3 has enjoyed.

After that, it seems Sirian went back to his (and many of our) favorite Empire game. He's got a pretty good site with lots of info on MoO, including a resources on how to get the game, a tutuorial, some solo game reports, and lots more.

He's also organized a tourney for MoO, the Imperia. The first game opened April 5 over at Realms Beyond Orion (http://realmsbeyond.net/orion/index.html)

Calls for a succesion game rang out, and here we are.

Oh yeah---and Good luck to Team One! You are in good hands. Excellent report to start out (as expected), Sirian.

One thing, Charis--you are a math NUT! :lol: This is going to be lots of fun to watch.

Charis
Apr 10, 2004, 11:45 PM
One thing, Charis--you are a math NUT!

Bam-bam, you have NO IDEA!! I spent several hours in Excel and deriving equations, taking a composite non-linear growth curve, taking the derivative with respect to time then another derivative with respect to transport size, to get a quadratic equation which I solved for the optimal transport size, *if* you want to maximize empire growth (as opposed to homeworld factory growth or some other pressing need).

So why did I say I would consider sending 24 colonists instead of 7?
For a homeworld at 57 of 100 and a colony of 2 of 80
transport_optimal = ( 57*80 - 2*100 ) / (80 + 100) = 24.2 colonists.

For the formula and a growth curve graph, see:
Optimizing transport size (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84644)

I mention it there but reiterate here... the optimal transport size for maximizing empire growth is 24, but the correct amount to transport in our own game situation was probably 7, the number that Sirian sent - as it allowed just the right number of scout ships to be built over the next two turns. We ended up tying a Sakkra colony ship to one new star and chased him away. It ended up being inhospitable but if it was a great planet then a 1 turn delay in the scout would have lost it.

I'll be curious to see if experienced players have any thoughts on this. I'm rather good at math but the rankest newbie at MOO! :p
They key take-home point of that post was: don't stress out trying to stick too close to 50 of 100, anywhere from high 30's to low 60's is almost as good for growth on the sending planet, and will improve overall empire growth.

Charis

Sirian
Apr 11, 2004, 01:17 AM
I spent several hours in Excel and deriving equations, taking a composite non-linear growth curve, taking the derivative with respect to time then another derivative with respect to transport size, to get a quadratic equation which I solved for the

Told ya this would be a math wiz's playpen. :p

Can you believe I envisioned a scenario exactly like you describe, where a lightbulb goes *CLICK* and flips on, then an excited Charis starts poring over spreadsheets and equations? :lol: That is an image straight out of a vision I've imagined, subtitled "Charis's Paradise" :lol:

I'm glad you decided to give this a spin. :) I hope that it continues to entertain you.


the optimal transport size for maximizing empire growth is 24, but the correct amount to transport in our own game situation was probably 7

You've aced one of the vectors. That's for sure. You grok the pop growth bell curve and how to maximize it. In fact, you've already refined it down to an exact science. Now for learning about all the other relevant vectors, and finding appropriate balance.

The great thing about this game is that there are real tradeoffs to be made, real choices. Not phony choices, where Option A is always best and B C and D are just for show or for suckers (or variant scum).

When it comes to early game economics, there is a fairly narrow range of "best" options. But as my Kitten Kaboodle game shows, there can be competing interests (and alternative choices) to pursuing max initial growth. And there is choice to make about how much strength to move from the homeworld to the second colony. Thus, even when you have fairly well mastered how to play the opening, you don't end up executing the same formula game after game. There is a wider variance in the terrain than we see in Civ, for instance. Different size planets at different ranges, some hostile, some with production bonuses or penalties attached. Different situations involving neighbors, and disputed territory, decisions about where and when to fight or blockade.


optimal transport size, *if* you want to maximize empire growth (as opposed to homeworld factory growth or some other pressing need

Right. As I showed with micromanaging ticks on the Eco slider, there are other vectors to consider.

There's also one other item... it costs money to build transports. Not much, but enough to deter flinging population all around in search of perfect returns on the growth curve. The cost seems to be about 0.5 BC per transport or thereabouts. You cannot send more than half of the current pop level, and if you have no factories built and you send the max, it may even take all of your current production. Perhaps the cost is closer to 1 BC per 3 transports. Plus you do lose the production of population points while they are in transit.

In my experience, it's best not to "juggle" population. We could further expand on growth by flinging transports back and forth, but at ever-increasing costs to other priorities. Thus I tend to send X amount out from the homeworld to second colony (depends on size of second colony), and usually one single shipment back home to "top off the tank" of homeworld pop as factories are maxed.

One thing I'm certain of. It's stronger to use some colonists from second colony to help homeworld max out ASAP. If you have homeworld spend on ecology to grow colonists, that costs nearly 20BC apiece. If you wait on building factories so that you never have idle factories, and you wait for homeworld to fill up on its own using growth, you will pass up a lot of turns of production.

Here's the key factor in this concept: employed vs unemployed workers. At the time the homeworld is nearing, but not quite yet arrived at, max factories (max TOTAL factories, not max for current population), second colony is still standing up its factories. It's got way more people than jobs. If the colonists in question are left at the second colony, their production value is "unemployed". They produce 0.5 BC per million. If these same folks are moved back to the homeworld, AND (key point) homeworld continues to spend on factories, then there will be factories and jobs waiting for those colonists when they immigrate to the homeworld. You thus have a choice between leaving these folks on second colony as unemployed, or moving them back to the homeworld and fully employing them. Bigger bang for buck at the homeworld.

Let's take Charis's numbers from his turn.

Ursus: 78/149/+2 (+12 fact)
Ursus: 80/150/+2 (+1.8 fact, ship in 5)

Charis saw the "Max" reading in the Industrial slider and may have read too much into it. In the second turn there, he could have had up to ten more factories IN USE if they had been built. Even if not bringing some colonists back from the second colony at the end stage of homeworld ripening, it would be a good idea to try to keep factories at double current pop, even if that peels a turn off the colony ship he started.

Let's extrapolate these numbers. These are approximations.

Ursus: 78/149/+2 (+12 fact)
Ursus: 80/150/+2 (+1.8 fact, ship in 5)
Ursus: 82/152/+2 (+2 fact, ship in 4)
Ursus: 84/154/+2 (+2 fact, ship in 3)
Ursus: 86/156/+2 (+2.2 fact, ship in 2)
Ursus: 87/158/+1 (+2.4 fact, ship in 1)
Ursus: 89/161/+2 (+2.5 fact, ship built)

Here's an approximation of what I would have done instead:

Ursus: 78/149/+2 (+12 fact) - CONTINUE TO BUILD FACTORIES
Ursus: 80/162/+2 (+13 fact) - SEND 14m from Gion back to Ursa!
Ursus: 82/176/+2 (+14 fact) - transports en route
Ursus: 84/190/+2 (+14 fact) - transports en route
Ursus: 100/200/+2 AND 14 arrivals (+10 fact AND 40 BC to shipbuilding)
Ursus: 100/200 - max shipbuilding, ship in 4
Ursus: 100/200 - max shipbuilding, ship in 3

The first ship comes out later, but the third and fourth will come out faster. The key is understanding that when the Industrial slider says Max, that doesn't mean it stops building factories. You can continue to build factories beyond what your CURRENT pop can use. It won't stop until you get to the maximum for your planet size and current factory controls tech level. This doesn't even cost you anything. Idle factories do not produce waste. The slider won't help you with that, though. You have to have an advanced understanding to manage past that point. For the homeworld, that will be 200, but in other situations you have to factor your Robotics Controls level with the planet size. You have to know what the true max value is for factories, and if necessary, you may have to borrow the tech slider to apportion out a precise number of BC for spending, once the Industrial slider changes over to the unhelpful "Max" reading and no longer lets you know how much you're adding or taking away when you move ticks. (In my tutorial, I showed how to "borrow" the tech slider to measure out BC for terraforming expenditure. The same principle applies to factory construction. If you know your exact cost per factory, based on Industrial Tech level and Robotics level, you can build exactly the number you want, if there is any important reason to build a specific number, no more no less).

Example:

Ursus: 84/190/+2 (+14 fact) - transports en route
Ursus: 100/200/+2 AND 14 arrivals (+10 fact AND 40 BC to shipbuilding)

When at 190 factories, only 10 more will fit. The game will not build beyond your true max value. Yet we have the dough to build up to 14 factories. If we spend all of that, the overrun will be taxed and socked away into reserves. If we'd rather not put that overrun into reserve, but spend it directly on a secondary priority, we can measure out the spending.

Assuming 10 BC per factory (the initial cost, and ignoring the free tech we got from the artifacts planet), to build ten factories, we need to spend 100BC or more. So put enough ticks into the tech slider to meet that target, move the rest to shipbuilding, then move the precise amount measured from tech to industrial, and blam, just the right amount to max factories but with no waste, putting all the extra to our colony ship.


Using one appropriately sized batch from second colony to top off the pop growth at homeworld, while homeworld beelines to 200 factories, is the fastest way I know of to fully stand up the homeworld, but still have a vibrant second colony. I believe the homeworld can be ramped up a bit faster by never bothering to send colonists to the second colony in the first place, or by sending fewer, but that speeds colony ship construction a little bit at the expense of not having a ramped up second colony to do research and to supply population to help speed all the later colonies.

Of course, even this depends on the situation. Here we have a lot of stars we can grab. In situations where only one or two other stars are in range, it may be wiser to speed the output of the first or second colony ship, rather than trying to speed the fourth and fifth ones, because there aren't going to be fourth and fifth ones. Always choices to be made, never a pat answer that fits all situations.

As experienced as I am and as balanced as my methods may be after years of refinement, I'm sure there's room to improve upon my performances, as well as slightly different emphasis and pursuit of different goals, which may be more successful in many situations. I'm looking forward to tournament results and comparisions and debates. There may be plenty I can learn from others, such as Charis's clinic on how to use math to actively determine the exact optimal value for maxing total pop growth.

More to come...


- Sirian

Sirian
Apr 11, 2004, 03:36 AM
Continuing with my analysis...

I also like how you found out research options for the three best fields quickly.

I would not recommend this move in general. What can wait, should wait. Until the first two worlds ramp up to where you want to do bona fide research, not just "check options", it should wait.

The 9BC I did not put to a factory here means one less factory. One less factory now means 2BC in total income less per turn, and after adding one unit of waste that has to be cleaned, will either be 2BC or 1BC of net production lost on each subsequent turn, from here until production is maxed. Figure 1.5BC average loss per turn, after six turns that's a second factory we would have had, that now we won't! So this little "check" move has put a small crimp in our growth curve. That 9BC diverted now will translate into a net expenditure of quite a bit more, as time rolls on. Rather like charging an item to your credit card and making minimum payments, paying lots of extra fees by the time you pay it all off. If the purchase could have waited, interest charges could be saved.

The question is what do we get for the tradeoff? By "checking" research options earlier, we DO find out what's on the table, but we also must COMMIT to making a selection in the areas where there are choices available (more than one tech option in that branch of the tree). That could be bad. I didn't wait for the rest of our scouts to report back in.

I WOULD NOT HAVE DONE THIS IN A TOURNEY GAME. That this is an SG is what changed the balance. Plus, I could see that Barren planet. That's a special case. Having a barren planet in the first potential expansion ring is uncommon. Having one that is a doorstop to most of our potential empire is even less common. Whether or not Controlled Barren is in the tree is directly relevant to our strategy. Even then, there's no point in checking too soon. Wait for all the initial scouts to report back, so we see the full range of our situation before committing to irreversible choices.


One question, I know you did the tech 'preview' for the purposes of SG discussion, but do you normally only open a few fields of research, or all at once.

Justus, all at once. Every time. And not until I'm ready to actually begin a commitment to research, or at least come to a crossroad where I need to determine whether to build colony ships first or research, or both.

I scouted only three fields in this case to minimize the damage to our growth curve done by the premature tech check. This really was for SG purposes only, although the move might be relevant in other SG situations. I wouldn't recommend it for Imperial games.


My first impression would be to send the colony to the yellow right away and scout the two greens. The only reason I wouldn't is because there are no NEW stars opened up by a yellow colony, and I would see if a green one might support a good population and help open up new venues quickly.

Your first impression was good. Selecting between multiple habitable worlds in initial range has little to do with "opening" anything. The colors on the arrows I used with the dotmap are not affected by choosing this planet first vs that one. Rather, it is technology that "opens" additional expansion paths.

On large and huge maps, you ALWAYS want to go for the best available planet, if there are multiple valid choices to open. On small maps, as my Kitten Kaboodle game, position may trump planet strength. On medium maps, in select terrain layouts, position may matter, but usually grabbing the strongest planet would be better.

The only thing gained by changing position of second colony from this one to that one is the difference in range factors for early blockading. Both long range ships (Scouts, LR Laser) and standard range ships (Fighters, Laser Ships) are affected, and if you might fight for and win a disputable system with one choice for second colony but not another, that may be important.

Of course, playing a hunch or playing against probability to pursue position can pay off. Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. :whipped: But in MOO, it is usually wiser not to press your luck. :lol:


Voices ring in my head... "I urge you to think long term!"

:lol: Yep. Yeppers. Appropo.


We reached the north green star the same turn as the colony ship

Not necessarily. If that system has a hostile planet, that colony ship may have been parked there for a while. If the system has a normal environment, then definitely, we tied them there and if we had come later, the system would already have been settled. If the Sakkra have settled all habitables within their initial range, their colony ships could be sitting around waiting for new orders, which cannot come until they learn some tech.

Sssla is the Sakkra homeworld.

Sakkra - Sssla
Psilons - Mentar
Silicoids - Cryslon
Darloks - Nazin
Alkari - Altair


We're not likely to contend with any aliens where a system is 3 or 4 parsecs from their homeworld and 7 or 8 away from ours. Better to cede ground that is not rightfully ours than to spend a lot of resources on blockades. Have to know when to hold em and know when to fold em. Know when to walk away, and know when to run. Never count your money when you're sittin at the table. There'll be time enough for countin' when the dealin's done. :lol:

Of course, if they don't stand up a whole lot of defenses, we might pull the AI's trick of sending transports. Like, at the first chance we get. Pound some dirt. Boots on the ground. Knock some heads. Mix it up. :shotgun:


Team One - Da n00bz - ROSTER

Sirian
Charis
Jabah <<<<< UP NOW
Justus II <<< On Deck
Isit
Garath


- Sirian

Jabah
Apr 11, 2004, 09:42 AM
Whaou, long discussion here...

I think I tend to agree with Sirian on maximizing the native planet vs the colony, but now I know that I also have to check exactly how many people I send vs changing the sliders ...

I am not sure about research in a colony with industry far away from maximum (well need to check the map to see if barren is that urgent)

Got it and will be playing right now, just have to make sure I understand the Moo saving system (thks I have no active game to lose) and check the compatibility of MWSnap with DOS windows.

Back in a minute (or so)

Jabah

Jabah
Apr 11, 2004, 11:40 AM
Foreign situation

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/image004.png

The Sakkras are in our NW, their homeworld (Sssla) is the yellow star in the nebula.
Sssla is 6parsecs away from our colony Gion, 3 parsecs away from the empty system (Iranha) where we 'fought' their colony ship, but only 3parsecs (not4) away from the tundra (Incendius) where we have a scout. Incendious is 5parsecs away from our colony Gion and 4 parsecs away from the barren Trax.

Denying the Sakkras first access to Incendius then colonisation might be difficult (out of normal range) but is probably needed if we want to have a 1 system border only (for a while).

Scoutwise, all systems in range are explored, I move back the original scout around our colonies to:
1. prevent Sakkras to scout them &
2. scrap them (much later) without abandonning a system without scout.
The 2 systems without scout now are the 2 just East of Ursa. I dare not remove the scout from the NE as we don't know for sure if the top NE yellow 8parsecs away is an AI homeworld (very unlikely)


Back to our empire.

Ursa : I want to maximize Ursa first before building ship (see Sirian post), so until further notice Ursa will be mainly on Industy (to MAX) and the rest on the ship construction.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/image005.png

Gion : back to industry (stop research) until a more decent production.
Pop wise Ursa is 80/100 (+2) and Gion is 56/80 (+3), send 10 back to Ursa.

Press enter
(Now I have a question, how do you find the year to check how long you have played?)

IT nothing

turn (1) MM Ursa to keep it MAX
IT nothing

turn (2) same
IT nothing

turn (3) transports arrive, need to go full industry on Ursa again
IT nothing

turn (4) MM Ursa to keep it MAX
IT nothing

turn (5) same (only 1 click on industry this time - pop 98/fact 196)
IT nothing

turn (6) same, Colony in 1t, keep ship at maximum to 'prebuild' the next
IT - Year 2327 - Colony built and Ursa reach its Industry maximum. (Is it IT or turn7, probably the later)

turn (7) send the colony to Imra (in 3t) and put the few research (set by AI) back to ship (next in 4t)
IT nothing

turn (8) Imra is a size 55 planet, I will send 25 colonists later from Ursa so in anticipation, I send 20 colonists now from Gion (pop 64/80) to Ursa (3t) to have it almost full the following turn.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/image007.png
Gion can reduce industry production to MAX and restart some research.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/image008.png
IT nothing
turn (9) MM Gion to keep it MAX
IT - Year 2329 - Colonize Imra
turn 10 send 25 colonists from Ursa to Imra (in 3t)
2 new systems are now in range, start some scout dancing to explore those 2 and keep scouts around away system.


Notes for next leader.
- Ursa should build a colony next turn, probably continu that until we reach the artifact world.
- 25 colonists are leaving Ursa, don't cancel them otherwise the 20 coming from Gion will die.
- Check Gion to MM production between industry & research.

Jabah

The SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2330.zip)

Justus II
Apr 11, 2004, 12:13 PM
I got it, but won't be able to play until this evening. (Easter Sunday with 8+ children in the house is not conducive to optimal moves!). Any suggestions on research priorities? I'm leaning to Barren, as it lets us open up the 'white arrow' planets before the Sakkra get to them.

Isit
Apr 11, 2004, 12:20 PM
(Now I have a question, how do you find the year to check how long you have played?)

On the races screen click on the status button. The year is displayed at the top of the screen.

Charis
Apr 11, 2004, 01:51 PM
Quick tip: Isit is correct, I just wanted to add that it's almost instant if you type: 'r' then 's' no pause needed.

As for tech, my uninitiated vote is for barren, although the path we've taken, I'm not sure now if that or range 4 would get us to the Artifact planet quicker.

Charis

Matrix
Apr 11, 2004, 02:11 PM
Thanks for the explanation, Bam-Bam. :)

Garath
Apr 11, 2004, 05:41 PM
Checking in, having finally got the forum to play nice with my email account and let me create an account here. I'm back at University from tomorrow, so I should be able to play by the time my turn comes up. Don't expect any pictures in my first turn, but I'll try to figure out how to get them after that, once I have some more time. Equally, I've never actually had to upload a file to here, so I don't know offhand how to. I should be able to figure it out, though.

Looking forward to it, Garath

Bam-Bam
Apr 11, 2004, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Charis
Bam-bam, you have NO IDEA!! I spent several hours in Excel and deriving equations, taking a composite non-linear growth curve, taking the derivative with respect to time then another derivative with respect to transport size, to get a quadratic equation which I solved for the optimal transport size, *if* you want to maximize empire growth (as opposed to homeworld factory growth or some other pressing need).


Actually, I guessed correctly. I could hear the OCEM (Overdrive Charis Excel Math) all the way on the east coast. Charis' version of damnation--life without excel. "Honey, you can take away my games, but PLEASE don't take away my spreadsheet!" :lol:

Seriously, I am just as tickled to see you jumping in with both feet. I anticipate that tourney results and SGs are going to be chock full of learning for all of us.

Jabah
Apr 11, 2004, 06:50 PM
A few more comments

I didn't change anything in research priority (in fact I didn't research a lot before the last turns).
Range 4 is probaly not urgent as we can reach the artifact system with our range 3 tech with OK planet on the way (Ursa is building colonies in 4/5t each)
Barren is necessary to expand SW.
--> barren is probably what we need first, on keep Ursa building Colony until we reach the Artifact world then switch it to research (as opposed as have Ursa doing research on its own first)

Jabah

Sirian
Apr 12, 2004, 05:23 AM
Nice round, Jabah. Allow me to offer some commentary.


The transport relay is good work. That will put colonists on Imra one turn sooner.


"MM Ursa to keep it MAX" is solid but not ideal. Rather, that falls a little bit short of ideal, if the goal is to max per-turn production. The "Max" tag is "out of synch" with reality by one turn. It measures max for the CURRENT population, but does not, cannot factor population changes. Yet next turn's production will be based on NEXT TURN's population, so the ideal performance is to "look ahead" to what the pop will be on the next turn, and have that many factories ready and waiting to be put to use. The Max reading doesn't factor pop growth, or any orders sending transports outgoing or bringing some incoming.

Note that in my comments following Charis's turn, I suggesting ignoring the "Max" reading altogether and pushing way way past it. At one point in my approximation, I showed 84 pop but 190 factories. Those 84 pop could only use 168 factories, but I had sped on to build factories asap. 22 factories sat idle that turn, and I did not see this as a problem. I always had factories ready to go for newly grown or immigated population points.

Let me put this another way. If it doesn't say Max at ALL times in the Industrial slider, then your current factory count is short of ideal and at least some population are unemployed. You are missing out on at least a small amount of production that your population could have supported. Instead you want it to say Max even when you would be building a single factory, because that means you are CURRENTLY at max. That make sense? Anybody not following this point?

Some facts to consider:

* There is no cost for idle factories. No waste, no maintenance.
* There is no reason to avoid building idle factories.
* There is a reason to avoid even minimal unemployment, if you can avoid that.
* If you use the changeover in the industrial slider from numbers to "Max" reading, you are targeting next year's factory total to this year's population. If you could target instead to next year's population, THEN you're at ideal performance.
* You will have to build the factories eventually. Why go through the micromanagement work of matching ideal ratio of factories to population? Max out the factories -- it costs you nothing -- then shift to other tasks. NO PRODUCTION GETS WASTED. You simply get the factory part out of the way up front and delay the expenditure of a few BC into whatever else you would be doing. If those few BC are not decisive (in a few cases they might be) then they won't really be missed, only delayed at no real penalty, so save yourself a bunch of makework that won't gain you anything.

See? Even when it comes to the micromanagement aspects, this game is a masterpiece. There's plenty of micro available for efficiency nuts, but a lot of it REALLY DOES NOT MAKE AN ACTUAL DIFFERENCE when you look closely, so learning when to bother and when not to bother can save you time and energy and let you remain focused on the strategics, not the minutiae.

The homeworld is a bit of a unique case. It gets such a massive head start on factory construction compared to all other colonies, that it may warrant bringing some colonists home at the tail end of its ripening to speed the arrival at max output. That is because there are a bunch of unemployed on the second colony, who can be put to better use. For all other colonies, this won't be the case on most maps. New colonies will be founded fairly close together and will "grow up together", in a way that doesn't lend to shuffling population around in search of significant benefits.


Jabah did bring colonists home from Gion, and he did not miss out on much production, so he did a very fine job. Maybe 70-80 total gross BC missed and after cleanup costs, 40-45 net BC not earned. Figure 4 BC gross lost for each pop who went unemployed for one turn (each employed factory put outs 2 BC, times two for each pop point). Each newly grown pop point, or each arriving immigrant, only went one turn without jobs, because Jabah would build factories for them after that one turn. So... overall, like I said, only about 40 BC net that was missed. That won't even make one turn's difference on a colony ship, and we're not talking about spending that is applied to a key point in a planet's growth curve, so no "penalties and interest".

My spending 9BC to check the three tech fields cost us MUCH more than this, to give you a comparison.

Now the homeworld is fully ramped up and potential choices for our civ have hit that critical point where strategy will decide our fate, where the choices leave the realm of "no brainer" and enter into greater complexity. I find myself hoping that Team Two scored a high quality tech out of the artifacts world, so that our results will be more closely comparable, but that's out of our hands.


We've had no word yet about AI scouts showing up at planets to the southwest. We know that the Sakkra are not a threat to those systems. In that case, if I were Up Now, I would follow the pink chain and grab everything there without prioritizing any research. That would form our back line core and open additional scouting to the south, where either there are virgin lands, or a neighbor. In either case, expanding our prospects.

We could let Gion ramp up to 80-100 factories, enough to keep 40-50 pop full employed while we KEEP that colony around that level and use it to do research at full rate and use its pop growth to feed a steady stream of people to other colonies. And to that end, I would ignore Charis's most excellent insights into "maxing empire wide growth rates" and keep Gion right AT 50% full, because Gion has a 5+ parsec distance to everything to the south, and the key element to supplying the most troops to the most number of new colonies is the SOURCE RATE, RIGHT NOW, not the total growth rate, which is harmed significantly by having too many transports in flight from Gion to colonies. The bird in the hand of colonists at Gion NOW beats the two in the bush of sending too many from Gion up front and having them not growing while in transit. Especially when Gion is also in good position to feed colonies on the white path.


Now as for research, when Jabah HALTED research, the portion that Charis had already invested began to decay. Research points are LOST if research is completely halted in any given field. We did not have many invested, so this may even have been the right choice to make, but it would NOT have been wise if a heavy investment had been made. We could be losing dozens of RP to decay, and later in the game could lose hundreds or even thousands of RP if any such research halt is ordered. Even a minimal trickle prevents decay.

MOO1 rewards steady research efforts over erratic and dramatic micromanagement shifts. Not only is there a decay factor for halting research. There is also a bonus factor for steady research, which ramps up as a steady amount of BC are invested into each field. That's why Zed recommends choosing the ratio you want for emphasizing fields and "leaving well enough alone" once you do. I tend to do a little bit more active tech management, but even that is with only about 40% of the research budget, keeping a steady 10% (x6) into each field as a minimum baseline, so I'm always gaining the max bonus for steadiness on at least 60% of my research effort. The other 40%, if concentrated into one field, would see a single field getting as much as half of all my current research investment, and it too will enjoy some steadiness bonus if I'm not flinging it around too often.

I still recommend a 50-50 split on researching Barren and Range 4 simultaneously (they cost about the same) followed by a 50-50 split on both cleanup techs (which, again, cost about the same). That seems like a clear winner to me on research strategy. The strategic choice was not so much how much to emphasize this research field over that one, but instead whether or not to keep homeworld ONLY on shipbuilding, to follow the pink line ASAP, or to put more to tech sliders up front and learn the techs to open the white and orange paths to settle those BEFORE the pink path worlds. Well, the scouting on Charis's turn answers these questions. There's an artifacts planet on the pink path, and ALL planets on that path are nonhostile. Everything on the orange path is lost to us because of hostile environments and Sakkra presence. No major threat has emerged to the white path, so let's take the path of least resistance (literally) and go pink first.

That would be my analysis. Players who are up need not follow these suggestions. Other choices are available.


- Sirian

Jabah
Apr 12, 2004, 06:43 AM
Originally posted by Sirian


"MM Ursa to keep it MAX" is solid but not ideal. Rather, that falls a little bit short of ideal, if the goal is to max per-turn production. The "Max" tag is "out of synch" with reality by one turn. It measures max for the CURRENT population, but does not, cannot factor population changes. Yet next turn's production will be based on NEXT TURN's population, so the ideal performance is to "look ahead" to what the pop will be on the next turn, and have that many factories ready and waiting to be put to use. The Max reading doesn't factor pop growth, or any orders sending transports outgoing or bringing some incoming.



I knew the MAX was based on the current population, but since Ursa was growing only 1 or 2 pop at this time and had a strong production (with 1 more click building like 3-4 factory? can't remember), I though MAX would be 'enough' and was hoping to be able to get the colony 1 turn sooner. Of course, the 'good' solution is to look at the planet and count (except that after MAX you have to estimate the number of factory that would be built with each extra 'click')

The 'only' turn where it might have been quite sub-optimal was when the transport arrived.

But it leads to another question : are new colonists (from transport or normal growth) taken into account before production - in that case you need to have the factories for them - or after production - in that case it does matter-

Since you can spend production in the eco slider to hurry growth, it would be more logical that growth happens after production, no (or you have 2 different growths, normal before and special after) ?


Originally posted by Sirian



We could let Gion ramp up to 80-100 factories, enough to keep 40-50 pop full employed while we KEEP that colony around that level and use it to do research at full rate and use its pop growth to feed a steady stream of people to other colonies.



AFAIR Gion is already at that point, if you look at the last picture (3t ago), Gion was at 64/80 pop minus the 20 going to Ursa and able to reach MAX in production (so around 90 factories)


Originally posted by Sirian


Now as for research, when Jabah HALTED research, the portion that Charis had already invested began to decay. Research points are LOST if research is completely halted in any given field. We did not have many invested, so this may even have been the right choice to make, but it would NOT have been wise if a heavy investment had been made. We could be losing dozens of RP to decay, and later in the game could lose hundreds or even thousands of RP if any such research halt is ordered. Even a minimal trickle prevents decay.



That, I didn't know. How fast are RP dying ?
When I got the save, there was almost no light on the research lightbulb so I hope we did lose too much :cry:


Jabah

and BTW, thks for the commentaries, that is the all (well almost) point of this SG.

Justus II
Apr 12, 2004, 07:32 AM
Disclaimer I played most of my turns, and had typed most of this report, last night. So when I saw Sirian's post this morning, I was a little concerned that I had missed out on important instructions, but after reading it I was reassured that most of my moves fell in synch with his recommendations. Those that didn't, will provide more 'teaching opportunities.' ;)


The first decision I looked at is which exploration path we are going to pursue, as that will guide me in prioritizing tech investment as well as build decisions. From Sirian's earlier 'dotmap', we had three primary courses of action:

Route A) Use the Pink Arrows to colonize the planets we can reach with range 3 tech in sequence. We have already begun this process, and at the current rate of one ship/4 turns, should be able to complete in 15 turns (Gorra's colony will complete next turn, so Argus at T+5, and Gienah at T+9, plus 6 turns travel time, means we can settle Gienah (artifact planet) in 15 turns. (Actually I thought it would take at least two turns longer than that, as the last colony ship won't be able to launch until Argus is founded, but I found a solution to that problem ;) ).

Route B) Follow the Yellow arrows, utilizing Range 4, to "hopscotch" a couple planets and settle the Artifact planet quicker. Of course, we don't have range 4 yet, and would have to complete research in less than 10 turns to reach the artifact planet any sooner than choice A, which is no sure thing. While it was a valid strategy, at this point we are already far enough along Route A that we have passed the point of it having significant advantages.

Route C) Follow the White arrows, by learning Controlled Barren. Once the barren planet (Trax) which then opens up the arid ultra-poor and the jungle, as well as potentially another coreward system. Again, we don't yet have the required tech.

I think Route C is key for our long-term prospects, but I also want to get that Artifact world up and running ASAP, so I am going to pursue Route A, while letting Gion focus on Barren research. This should open up Route C about the time our Colony ship is on it's way to our Artifact world, so Ursa can continue building colony ships. I know this delays Range 4 research, although I will invest a minimal amount to avoid the research already spent being 'shelved', but Range 4 doesn't open any planets that we aren't already on track to reach at this point.

A related decision is how to manage the Research/Factory production at Gion. My first inclination was to put enough into factory construction to build enough new factories to keep pace with pop growth, and devote the rest to research. It is currently at 48 pop/93 factory, growth of 2 last turn. So after building 7 factories this turn, I should be able to put (4x8)=32BC/turn into factories, adding enough to employ the 2 new pop/turn, and add the rest to research. However, I expect that Gion will continue to be our source of "seed corn" (to borrow a phrase), sending batches of pop to our new colonies as they are founded, since I don't want to reduce Ursa's pop now that it is maxed. That means that every 5-6 turns, Gion will grow up to ~60, then drop back to ~40 after shipping out another batch, and any new factories (as well as some existing) will go idle. Therefore, I am going to put all of Gion's net income into research to speed along Barren until we have another pop-farm established among our 'southern' planets (probably the poor ocean world).

Kind of a long explanation, when I haven't even hit Next Turn yet! But especially for this SG, I want to get some feedback on the decision-making process, as all my prior MOO gaming was in 'isolation.' ;)

OK, pre-turn MM'ing. Ursa is maxed on factories, and has a little excess in Eco, for a growth, even though it is also at max pop. I know after the transfers take place, it will have a net loss of 5, but I don't know if that is before or after the natural growth is calculated, so it may go to waste. Also, at a net income of 144, it can (just) complete a colony ship every 4 turns, so whatever production is lost next turn with the pop shuffle, may cost us an extra turn. So, I put all our income into ship-building, which will leave an excess of 45BC in the "shipyard account" to smooth over any bumps and make sure we stay on the 4-turn pace. At Gion, I pull the factory spending into research as I mentioned, which gives us a total of 67RPs. I allocate them 90% planetology, 10% propulsion, just to keep the interest accruing there. I also redirect a scout, as we had 2 scouts headed to the same planet, shifting the extra to Gienah, so it can push south when Gorra is founded.

2331 (1): Colony ship completes, which I send to Gorra. Ursa can still complete the colony ship in 4, but just barely, even one tick away changes it to 5, even with the extra 45BC. There is also one waste at Ursa, probably from the population shuffle reducing eco spending slightly, but it will clean itself without additional clicks.

2332 (2): Nothing special.

2333 (3): Nothing special.

2334 (4): Scout chases off a Silicoid Colony ship at the blue star to the SE, and it's a good thing, too:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/OSG1_Team1_2334_Primodius.jpg

Primodius is a Rich Radiated 25. Any other race wouldn't be as critical, but since the Silicoids can settle any environment, a rich colony here would have been a strong base on our borders. We definitely want to blockade this one as long as possible. Our other scout brings us less promising news, as Xudax turns out to be an Ultra-poor jungle world, athough a max pop of 90 would make it a good pop-farm, or for us Bulrathi, a marine-farm! :hammer: I also start a pop-transfer of 19 from Gion to Ursa, which can then Ďforwardí a like amount to Gorra after it is founded.

IBT: We establish our colony on Gorra, and another Colony ship completes, ready to head to Argus.

2335 (5): As research on Barren is now showing a 21% chance to complete, I back off the slider, and start to invest more into Propulsion (Range 4) and restart research on Construction (Reduced Waste 80). I will leave it to the next leader to open any new fields, but if we can get the waste reduction techs, that will make a big boost to our net production. The new colony does not open any new systems for scouting, but Argus should. Colony ship is sent, will arrive in 6. I have figured out how to avoid the 2-turn delay when the next colony ship, which will complete in 4, would have to wait for Argus to be settled before Gienah is in range. By setting Ursa to Relocate ships to Imra, I can use the Ďfreeí turn of movement and arrive at Imra 2 turns after the Colony ship is completed, just as Argus is founded, and then make the 4-turn trip to Gienah.

2336 (6): Send 19 pop from Ursa to Gorra, to be replaced next turn by the arriving transports from Gion. Fine-tune research a little more, balancing between the three techs.

IBT: We have mastered the ability to control a Barren Environment:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/OSG1_Team1_2336_Barren.jpg

I chose Improved Eco restoration next, our only other choice was Tundra environment, and I think the consensus was we wouldnít be able to contend for the Tundra world so close to Sakkra space.

2337 (7): Check the tech screen, but leave the sliders alone for now. Range 4 is at 10%, once it comes in I will focus on the two waste techs. I indulge in a bit of ship design, since the Barren tech has the useful side effect of reducing the cost (and size) of a standard colony base. By redesigning a new Colony ship (named, originally enough, Colony 1), the cost is only 525, rather than 570, so I swap Ursa over, saving 45BC. I also design our Barren Colony ship, which we will be building next, and it will cost 595, so the 45 we save (which I continue pouring into shipbuilding) should be enough to ensure we can still complete it in 4 turns after the current one completes. Itís not often I would have the luxury of using 3 design slots for colony ships, but for now, if it shaves a turn off the barren colony ship, itís worth it.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/OSG1_Team1_2337_Fleet.jpg

BTW, my naming convention is pretty simple, I pick a name based on function (Colony, Scout, Missile, Gunboat, etc,) then add a number for the warp speed, and a letter for special features (as in B=Barren, X=eXtended Range, etc). Iím sure most players have, or will develop their own system, I just like to have the speed in the name so when I am selecting fleets to move, I donít accidentally slow the fleet down by including an older ship. We should probably agree to a standard naming convention for this SG, however, as it could get confusing with different players using different abbreviations, etc.

(Continued)

Justus II
Apr 12, 2004, 07:35 AM
(Continued)

As the Range 4 tech is getting closer, I also decide to squeeze out a couple more Scouts from Imra, which reduces itís factory buildup by a turn, but we donít have enough scouts to reach the systems that will open up and continue to blockade those we are already orbiting.

IBT: 2 Scout 2s complete, and the Colony ship, which gets itís head start toward Imra.

2338 (8): It looks like I made a mistake in shuffling scouts around, as Trax, our barren gateway, doesnít have a scout in place, and I see a pair of Sakkra scouts headed that way. I slip a scout into production at Gion, and send the scout there to Trax, which should arrive the same time as the Sakkra.

IBT: We discover Hydrogen Fuel Cells (range 4). Our only choice is Inertial Stabilizer, a good tech. Scout 2 completes at Gion.

2339 (9): It looks like my scout will tie the Sakkra scouts to Trax, but a Silicoid scout that wasnít visible last turn is only one turn out, and will beat me to it. Send scouts out to planets we can now reach. Gion is over 50 pop again, and I donít think we will be using it for pop transfers as much in the future, so it is probably time to think about getting the rest of the factories built. I think Imra can send pop to boost our new colony on Argus when it completes, and then Gienah in turn, so the southern planets can take care of themselves. I would think Gion would send some pop to Trax when it is settled, but as a 40-max, thatís only about a dozen, and Gion will grow that many before Trax is even settled. But I donít want to pull the plug on research, so I compromise, setting Gion to build 4 factories/turn, matching itís current growth of 2/turn (still leaving some workers idle, as it was only at 93 factories to start) but keeping 35+ going into research so we continue to get our ďinterestĒ on our research investments.

IBT: We run into the Alkari for the first time, but thereís no bluffing our way through this fight:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/OSG1_Team1_2339_Alkari.jpg
This is at Jinga, the Jungle planet to the SW of Trax, and here is the result:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/OSG1_Team1_2339_Jinga.jpg

2340 (10): I redirected our retreating scout to a closer star, but otherwise havenít given any new orders to scouts. Several should be arriving at new planets in the next couple turns. Argus will be settled next turn, and then the colony ship which will arrive at Imra can be sent to Gienah, the Artifact world. We will also have a Colony 1B (barren) complete in 2 more turns, to settle Trax and open up at least one more planet, although the Alkari took the second. The Silicoid scout did beat us to Trax, so they have scanned it, but our scout will arrive next turn, and can chase it off, as well as the 2 Sakkra and one Alkari scout also headed to it!

The next leader should check the scouts, there are a lot of them in motion, and I hope I didnít leave any other planets out in the game of musical scouts. We could use 3-4 more scouts, or some cheap fighters, for blockade duty, but we donít really have a good planet to build them from.

Next leader should also look at Gion, and decide whether to go for max factories, max research, or continue to compromise as I did. :rolleyes: I wouldnít want to shut research off, or reduce it much below where it is now, but thatís up to the next leader. Once Gion is built up to the point where we can increase research, we need to open up the other categories, but for now my focus was on the two waste reduction techs, which will save us a lot of BC in the long run, and just minimal (10%) research into propulsion.

Fend off the Poachers! (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/OSG1_Team1_2340.zip)

Jabah
Apr 12, 2004, 08:46 AM
Did I really send two scouts to the same planet ? ooops. I remember trying and changing direction a lot to 'cover' every 'risky' systems, but thought I finally found a good solution, obviously I forgot to double check :crazyeye:

Did redesigning the same ship really change its price (well I knew for the 1st turn thing), I thought the prices were automatically adjusted after discoveries.

I agree with the ship convention, obviously Sirian does as well (according to his reports) except for the funny 'Scout 2' :lol:

Jabah

Sirian
Apr 12, 2004, 09:04 AM
Good work, Justus! Some fine moves in there. I especially liked the research handling, the analysis about the Silicoids, and the strategic planning to open your turn. Upgrading our colony ship design was also great. Retire the old line when the last of its ships are used.

I spelled out my colony ship naming convention in my tutorial. Any who have not read it will have missed it. The reason I don't mark warp one ships with the number 1 is that it may confuse with the I for Inferno. If there's no number on my design, it's a warp one. I put a number for all higher speeds. I preface ships with LR if they have long range (extended tanks). The rest equates to what Justus described.

My advice to the team from this point is to buckle down at Trax and try to make that our strong point on the white-orange line. We will not defeat that Alkari force in space and should not try. The Alkari are especially tough foes to tackle in early-game brush wars, at least as far as trying to blockade them. Instead, cede the ultra poor planet to them KNOWING they cannot stand up significant defense bases there. Let them build some factories, and down the line we invade and try to grab techs. Boots on the ground. Knock some heads. Etc etc. :lol:

We probably can seize the tundra planet, and should try, but not at the expense (in my opinion) of slowing down to do so. Keep grabbing what we can, keep working on waste techs, and then open up the other three tech fields some time soon and see what is on deck. Preferably, not spending more than 3 or 4 RP into each unopened field. The initial investment is wasted. We could open the other fields at any point, then stop research to them immediately if we aren't ready to dedicate investment to them.

The rate of decay for invested RP if research is halted is fairly steep. I don't remember the exact value. Maybe it's 20%, maybe 10%, maybe less, maybe variable. It's definitely significant and proportional. Since we had little invested, little was lost, so don't sweat it this time.


Team One - Da n00bz - ROSTER

Sirian
Charis
Jabah
Justus II
Isit <<<<< UP NOW
Garath <<< On Deck


- Sirian


EDIT: Sorry to be confusing about the Scout 2's, Jabah. If I design a scout with a warp two or warp three engine, I call it "Fast Scout". "Scout 2" is laziness in motion. Since I have to do that every game, I don't bother to say "Cheap Scout" or "Scout 1A". It doesn't really matter, as long as the ship name differentiates from the default "Scout". That is also why I call them "Colony" instead of "Colony Ship". If other folks open a game -- SG, or a tourney game -- and name the redesigned scout something else, that's fine. After a decade of "Scout 2", though, my brain is hardwired, the neural paths burned through, and thus I'll be calling them Scout 2's from here to eternity. Sorry 'bout that, Chief. :lol:

Justus II
Apr 12, 2004, 12:03 PM
@Jabah,
Don't worry about the scouts, I know I had recovered all planets earlier in my turn, but when I started shuffling forward again in anticipation of Range 4 tech, I must have reassigned the scout for Trax.

As for the ship design, yes I did have to redesign it. I thought I had read somewhere that prices were automatically adjusted as well, but not the case here. You can see from the Fleet Screenshot that the Colony ship we had been building was still at 570BC, the new Colony 1 ship (with no other changes) was only 525BC, and finally the Barren at 595BC.

Sirian
Apr 12, 2004, 12:50 PM
Prices do automatically adjust in many cases. You'll see plenty of evidence of that in coming days. I even showed an example in my tutorial where a colony ship price dropped. There may be an exception to the rule, or a bug, or some other factor I don't know about or have forgotten.

Perhaps the price drops on colony bases work differently. Price drops on colony ship designs that happen automatically may be due to price drops on the propulsion systems, armor, and structure, too. Could be that colony base prices are not automatically adapted, for reasons unknown.

You definitely did well to go with the new, cheaper design once the new tech had come in. No doubt about that. :)


- Sirian

Isit
Apr 12, 2004, 01:11 PM
Got it. I should have my turns up by this evening.

Justus II
Apr 12, 2004, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Sirian
Prices do automatically adjust in many cases. You'll see plenty of evidence of that in coming days. I even showed an example in my tutorial where a colony ship price dropped. There may be an exception to the rule, or a bug, or some other factor I don't know about or have forgotten.

Perhaps the price drops on colony bases work differently. Price drops on colony ship designs that happen automatically may be due to price drops on the propulsion systems, armor, and structure, too. Could be that colony base prices are not automatically adapted, for reasons unknown.


I was actually wondering along the same lines, as I *knew* price drops normally took effect automatically, but when it didn't, I did the redesign. Because the only new tech we had would affect the colony base, I started to think that might be the culprit, that although discounts for 'normal' systems (propulsion/conststruction/etc) would update automatically, maybe specials didn't. I will have to test it when I have some time.

Isit
Apr 12, 2004, 11:19 PM
Things are going pretty good. One colony will be started on the next turn with the 2nd soon to follow. We can grab the barren world when our new colony ship design finishes. I agree that we wonít be able to take or hold the other habitable worlds to our south. I might take a shot at them if they were normal but since both are ultra poor itís not worth the risk. My general plan is to finish colonizing what we can and then build up our colonies and start research.


2340: My general strategy with colony development is to not build anything but factories until a colony is maxed. Only in very rare instances will I change this. While there are some gains to be made by micro managing they are rarely worth the effort. I switch Gion back to building factories, leaving one click in the research slider so we donít lose any points. Nothing on our current research list is very import and at only 38 points a turn we wont get anything very fast. Much better in my mind to let our second colony build up to itís full potential before we start doing anything with it.

After making that one change I hit end turn.


2341: We found our new colony, Argus. We have three combats between turns, two with the Sakka and one with the birdbrains. We uncover a poor terran to our northeast but have to chase off a Sakka scout. I transfer 20 colonists to Argus from our homeworld since it is the only planet in range with the population to spare. I could transfer from Imra I suppose but that is a front line world and I want it developed as quickly as possible.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-transport.jpg

Speaking of Imra, our colony ship has arrived so I send it on to the artifact world below Argus. We also have a scout parked on top of an Alkari colony. No sense straining relations so I move it onward to scout deeper into their territory.

There is nothing else to do so I hit end turn.


2342: Our scouts find a couple of more Silicoid colonies. I pull them back once they finish scouting.


2343: A couple of Silicoid colony ships meet up with our scouts. We drive them off for now but they wont hold for long. As soon as we grab everything we can with our current tech I will pull them back and avoid any further diplomatic loss, not that it will make much difference with a typical Silicoid ruler. Nothing else going on so we end the turn.


2344: We find the Sakka homeworld in the middle of a nebula. That might be a lucky break for us when it comes to war since they cant use planetary shields in a nebula. Of course that makes it just as hard for us to hold but it would be ideal for an early game tech raid.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-sakkahomeworld.jpg

Our barren colony ship finishes and I send it off to colonize the barren world. There is a terran along the east edge of the map that will be in range when we settle the artifact world. Itís quite a ways away but given our meek array of worlds and the Silicoids nearby I decide to make a shot for it. I put together a basic destroyer design with two heavy lasers and level 1 battle computer. I will produce about 4 of them and then send them down to hold the terran while our colony ship arrives. I relocate to Argus so that these ships will get a free first move.

Given that we are the Bulrathi itís likely that we can hold it even if the Silicoid want it. Early boarder wars usually end up in ground combat rather then a bombed colony, an area at which we excel. I end the turn.

Isit
Apr 12, 2004, 11:27 PM
2345: It seems I misjudged on the terran world. Even after settling our new colony it is still 5 parsecs away even though it looks like 4 to me. At any rate I cut production of combat ships and switch our homeworld to research. I put a click into our unstated fields so that they will open up next turn. I send 15 colonists from our homeworld to the artifact world, Gienah.


2346: Our tech trees come up. I go for jammer 1 with computers as the only other option is deep space scanner, which is not worthwhile at this point. I pick class two shields and gatling laser for force fields and weapons respectively as they are our only choices.

Time to look at the map again. We have one tundra planet in range that we might grab if we can beat the Sakka to the tech. We have a poor jungle up north that we can grab as soon as we get range 6 tech. Both of these are worth perusing so I split the bulk of our research efforts to propulsion and planetology.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-earlytech.jpg


2347: We settle the barren world, Trax and meet the Alkali. Our 2nd colony also maxes on factories and switches over to research, which is where we want it. Looking at the map, the Alkali Empire extends vertically from the west, with only one colony close to ours. Looking at the races screen, the Alkali are xenophobic expansionists. They are also currently allied with the Sakka.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-meetthebirds.jpg

Xenophobic means that our diplomatic actions will have half the effect they normally would. It will be hard to establish trade. Expansionist means that they will focus on propulsion tech and founding new colonies. While not highly aggressive like the ruthless or aggressive types they will get into conflict easily during their land grab. They will probably end up at war with almost everyone else in the galaxy by the midgame. Peace will be hard if not impossible to maintain long term. I hate xenophobic races.

A couple of long-term strategy notes here. The AIs form alliances easy during the starting game. They do this without regard to personality types. Because of this its possible for the Alkali to ally with many races for early expansion and then declare war on us and bring their allies along for the ride. This can be really harmful in the early game and can cost the election later. I would keep a careful eye on their report in the races screen. If they hang onto any alliances past the very early game it might make sense to try to get the other races to break them.

On the flip side it is not unusual to have xenophobic races end up at war with half the galaxy. Because of this they make excellent targets for early conquest since when we attack them we will gain relations with anyone they are at war with. I have won elections in the early game due to this easy relations boost.

Back to the game, I transfer 10 colonists from Gion to Trax. I open up channels with the Alkari and get them to agree to 25BC of trade a turn. They wont agree to anything higher ATM and after working my way down the trade option they withdrawal their ambassador. I hate xenophobic races.


2348: End turn.


2349: End turn.


2350: Game saved. We currently control 7 colonies. Not a bad start but not great either. I have grabbed everything in range. A few more colonies will open up at range 5 and 6 and at the discovery of the control of barren planets. The Alkali have brought back their ambassador so the next leader might want to bug them about more trade. Donít be surprised if itís many turns before they accept though.

The final map:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-finalmapisit.jpg

The game:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1_tem1_2350.zip

Good luck to the next leader!

P.S. Sorry about the small images. I will resize them for my next turn.

Sirian
Apr 13, 2004, 06:06 AM
We're moving along nicely. Thanks, Isit. Garath, you're up. :)


A few comments...

* Range 6 tech is not in our tree. Unless we acquire range 5/6 from another race, somehow, we will not see a range extension until range 7 or even 8.

* Learning Industrial Tech 8 for free from the artifacts world is a major boost. Having learned Range 4 and Barren, we may be approaching the point at which we can fit a reserve fuel tank onto a large colony ship. If we're not there now, we may be after researching Improved Eco Restoration. We should definitely be there no later than after learning Reduced Waste 80, Tundra, and Inertial Stabilizer. Players should keep an eye on this. As soon as we can build LR Colony ships, we should do so. Grab at least one planet to the north along the red path and also make that jump to the terran planet to the south, perhaps more.

* Gatling Laser as the only early weapon choice is a stinker. Missing out on both the cheap gropo upgrade (Hand Laser) and the cheap missile upgrade (Hyper-V) is not good. Hopefully we'll have some better options in the next tier.

* Pulling back from the established alien colonies was wise. I don't know that I'd pull back from unsettled systems, though. I'm from the school of thought that says "Show me the money." An AI has to go to the trouble to arm its colony ships or bring escort to chase me away. There's less of a diplomatic hit to encounters at neutral stars than there is at AI colonies. Now once an AI has proven it has stepped up its activity and has armed its colony ships or built escorts, I may pull back at other places. No use taking even a minor hit when there's no chance of turning them back, but my ability to predict exactly when they will ramp up to an armed colony expedition is limited. In addition to attitude issues, there are also respect issues involved. The AI's will respect you more, fear you more, treat you more seriously, if you've shown some backbone. That usually pertains more to blockades and brush wars in which you stand your ground.

* Xenophobics don't bother me. All six personality temperaments have pros and cons. Personality helps determine leanings, thresholds, borderline issues, but the interests of the civ trump personality leanings. That is, none of them are designed to be stupid. Even an Erratic whose dice say, "OK, now you declare war on Race X" will not attack willynilly, but try to gather a winning fleet and strike where they have a chance to accomplish something. The AI is half-decent about judging these things. Look at the Klackon and Meklar moves in my Kitten Kaboodle game.

* We still have a lot of factory building to do.


Good luck, Garath.


- Sirian

Garath
Apr 13, 2004, 06:50 AM
There are a few things that I change before starting my first turn, though I am reluctant to do so being so new, and Isit is an old hand. Regardless, I go ahead and change them anyway, I'll probably learn more from the comments.

First, Ursa is not at maximum population. I really wouldn't have sent pop from Ursa to stand up a new world, since those people would have been using the factories that only Ursa really has to build colony ships, directly impacting our growth curve. I send back 11 colonists from Imra who do not have factories to use, and which is still in a better part of the growth curve. Speaking of colonies, while I agree that the Ultra Poor on the Alkari border is probably unholdable, I disagree about the one on the Silicoid border, I think we can probably get that, particularly against the Silicoids who always send such wimpy troop numbers early in the game. I rebase the Sentinel ships there, and start building a colony ship at Ursa, 5 turns since it's not on max pop. Relocating via Imra to gain a turn.

On the tech front, Inertial Stabilisers aren't that much use yet, and I only leave one tick in the Force Fields slider, since we really want those cleanup techs. Oh, and by the time the game got here, those two colony ship designs both had the same price, anyway. Clearly the reduction did cut in, just a bit late. Or something like that, anyway.

Right. Next turn.

2351: chase away another Silicoid colony ship from the radiated Rich planet, Primodius, and spot one of their scout heading into our territory. Shouldn't matter though. I doubt I'm going to get any armed ships to Primodius in time to stop them when they come back though.

2352: Nada.

2353: scout the world below the Terran on the east edge, it is Desert 50. then have to send the scout back to the Terran to repel the Silicoid scout, since it seems to be headed there. I've already got another one headed over to take its place, though. Transports get to Ursa, dropping time for the colony ship to 1 turn from 2. Checking ranges with my scout, both those planets are still at range 5 from the Ultra Poor, annoyingly. starting to look like range 6 would be rather handy, since we don't have 5 in our tree. I'll set some research back to propulsion after we finish the cleanup techs.

2354: colony ship finished. we're going to need more ships to hold the Silicoids off some of these worlds, but I think that 6 standard lasers are rather more use at this stage than 2 heavy lasers, so I design a new ship to those specifications, since there are still design spaces. Still relocating the Imra, since they're going to be needed in the south.

2355: Improved Eco Restoration comes in. Controlled Tundra is our only option, so I pick it. It might well be useful, but even so I set some of the research back to Propulsion from Planetology to try to get some range in later.

2356: Reduced Industrial Waste 80% -> Duralloy Armour, to further accentuate our Bulrathi edge. Not a real research priority, however. Colony ship sent onward from Imra, and the Sentinels have now arrived at the UPoor planet, so we should get it. Imra also maxes factories, and stays on research to get things moving a little faster. Up the trade route with the Alkari to 100bc/year, and the report shows them allied with only the Psilons now. Still no wars, though. Realise I can't yet send ships to the Radiated Rich yet either, without range 5, so I'm pretty sure that one's going to fall. I'll send a few more ships down to Xudax, and then I suspect I should get a small force at Trax to deal with the Alkaris when they come. A couple of deterrent ships out at the Tundra world would probably be good too.

2357: Not much

2358: ECM JammerI comes in, switch to Robotic Controls III since we have factory cost 8, and most of the colonies are getting there on factories now.

2359: Nada again

2360: Nothing again. The Alkari are now allied with the Silicoids, which is not one we want to persist, but it probably won't. Game Saved. Game exported to PC format. And even uploaded, all of which seem to work.

The file is at:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1_bears_2360.zip

Hopefully I didn't make *too* many mistakes.

Garath

Final comments after having seen Sirian's post, after I played my turns I'm afraid:

I didn't think of designing LR Colonies, I thought you couldn't do that until rather later in the tree. We probably have plenty of combat ships to cover current needs, though, so you can get right on it. Pinching the two habitables on the east edge before the Silicoids get there would be a nice boost. A fairly large chunk of that factory building you mentioned has been done, though. :)

OK then. Guess you're Up, Sirian.

Isit
Apr 13, 2004, 12:20 PM
Xenophobics don't bother me. All six personality temperaments have pros and cons. Personality helps determine leanings, thresholds, borderline issues, but the interests of the civ trump personality leanings. That is, none of them are designed to be stupid. Even an Erratic whose dice say, "OK, now you declare war on Race X" will not attack willynilly, but try to gather a winning fleet and strike where they have a chance to accomplish something. The AI is half-decent about judging these things. Look at the Klackon and Meklar moves in my Kitten Kaboodle game.

Thatís a very true assessment of the way the AI works. The problem I have is not with the fact that the AI attacks but with the early game alliances it makes. Often an erratic or xenophobic race will be allied with half the galaxy when they attack you, which is one aspect of the game that I dislike.

The way I typically deal with this is to either get the race to attack someone else first or to make sure they have no allies when they do decide to attack. To aid in this I usually try to get strong relations built up quickly with everyone I can. Thatís why I pulled our scouts back. In my mind itís more important to be able to survive a war when it comes then make it less likely to come by blockading stars and making the AI respect us.

I suspect that my midgame focus differs from yours in my emphasis on diplomacy. I rarely end up in many wars and I typically build a lot few missile bases then you do. (At least judging from your reported games) I almost always go to war at some point but itís usually with an erratic or xenophobic race that has a lot of enemies.


First, Ursa is not at maximum population. I really wouldn't have sent pop from Ursa to stand up a new world, since those people would have been using the factories that only Ursa really has to build colony ships, directly impacting our growth curve. I send back 11 colonists from Imra who do not have factories to use, and which is still in a better part of the growth curve. Speaking of colonies, while I agree that the Ultra Poor on the Alkari border is probably unholdable, I disagree about the one on the Silicoid border, I think we can probably get that, particularly against the Silicoids who always send such wimpy troop numbers early in the game. I rebase the Sentinel ships there, and start building a colony ship at Ursa, 5 turns since it's not on max pop. Relocating via Imra to gain a turn.

The first batch of colonists I sent out from Ursa was during a colony ship build but it was late in the build and so they didnít effect the time it took to get the ship out. After that I was done building colony ships and the 30 point decrease in research from sending the second batch out was minor.

I had two reasons for not sending colonists from Irma:

1. Irma is a front line colony and I wanted to stand it up ASAP. While colonists donít add a whole lot to production they do add up to maybe one less turn of factory building over the course of standing up the colony. They also act as guards in case the AI sends an early attack. Of course that isnít as much of an issue with the Bulrathi as someone else.

2. I donít really play MOO as a micromanagement game. I donít usually worry much about fine-tuning colonist levels to factory levels or transport more then one load of colonists to and from a colony. While there is something to be gained from this micromanagement I believe that it is so close to a wash that itís not worth the time.

Its defiantly worth know how to micromanage your colonies, especially when you are starting out, but I wanted to point out with my turn that you can skip a good chunk of it and still come out with a win.

Sirian
Apr 13, 2004, 04:19 PM
In my mind itís more important to be able to survive a war when it comes then make it less likely to come by blockading stars and making the AI respect us.

Blockading stars definitely does not make wars LESS likely to come. Instead, it gives you a chance to obtain more territory more quickly, possibly at less cost. It is a form of warfare in itself, brush wars: an aggressive gameplan. Avoiding war's not going to happen with Erratic and Ruthless opponents. It's not going to happen if you're playing one of the races whose strength is warfare and you play with a strategy to try to make use of your strength. It's not going to happen if you have a neighbor who has no other direction in which to vent his expansion urges.

I agree with you that the AI "cheats" when it comes to those early alliances, and I can understand why you'd find it annoying. I do too, sometimes. It reminds me that this is an AI, not an intelligent opponent, and that in a few cases, it's playing by different rules. Those early alliances tend to be rather short-lived, though, and the AI is not predisposed to declare war out of the blue (except for erratics). Instead, it targets worlds.

Real alliances, in the middle of the game, are much more likely to bring unwanted war declarations down upon you, from the allies of your enemies. Short-lived early alliances bringing a dogpile onto me is just not a mechanism that has cost me a game, to my recollection. Perhaps that is why I don't attach the same threat level to that issue as you do. You don't attach the same threat level to things I worry about more, and our different strategic priorities may explain the differences in these threat barometers.

Of all the races, I tend to be the most aggressive with the Bulrathi. That's what Zed meant about our different approaches, and seeing how things turn out.

I intended for this to be a mix-it-up kind of game. I've tried to be clear about that at every stage. :) All that rah-rah "mix it up" chatter. Most of our newer players have emphasized curiosity about combat as their primary interest. The economics are a bit less involved and a bit more intuitive. Combat is something that requires experience to understand and learn. Thus, the Bulrathi and the "conquest" as minimum victory. We're going to be doing a lot of fighting, and the more stages at which we do some fighting the better. Get to see different stops along the tech tree in action.

I generally try to make nice with all the AI's as well. Picking fights in which you have no way to make gains is not a bright way to be playing. This SG was never destined to be a "sit back and make nice" kind of adventure, where we emphasize diplomacy. If that wasn't already clear, I'm sorry. I hope that idea does not disappoint you in any way, as I'm glad to have someone who does things differently than I do participating. The others get to see different choices and that may give them a better understanding.


On to Garath... Hi Garath. :) Been way too long since we got to share a game together. Civ3 dropping Mac support at Epic Seven.

I really wouldn't have sent pop from Ursa to stand up a new world, since those people would have been using the factories that only Ursa really has to build colony ships

I probably wouldn't have, either. I'd have tried to send some from elsewhere. If I did decide to send from a maxed out colony, I'd probably spend heavy on Eco to regrow the pop quickly, rather than let a significant number of factories sit idle for a while.

It -is- important to try to stand up new colonies more quickly, though, so I don't argue Isit's objective there. That's a smart thing to be doing, and debatable as to which way to do it.


On the tech front, Inertial Stabilisers aren't that much use yet, and I only leave one tick in the Force Fields slider,

And nothing wrong with that. Except... I have plans. I have had plans for a while now. :satan:

To open my turn, the first move is to increase priority on force field research. We want to be immune on planet surfaces to any popgun fighter swarms the Alkari may bring into the fight. I want those shields. :)


- Sirian

Isit
Apr 13, 2004, 04:56 PM
Blockading stars definitely does not make wars LESS likely to come. Instead, it gives you a chance to obtain more territory more quickly, possibly at less cost. It is a form of warfare in itself, brush wars: an aggressive gameplan. Avoiding war's not going to happen with Erratic and Ruthless opponents.

Actually, I have had quite a few games where I have had long-term alliances with erratic and ruthless types. This usually happens in a situation where it come down to a 2 or 3 person alliance vs. everyone else in the galaxy. In fact its fairly common because these races tend to end up at war with the strong races I need to knock out to win the vote. The trick is make them target someone else which is very hard with an aggressive strategy since you typically have at least one or two weak system that you just took.

On the other hand I usually end my expansion early and by the time anyone is out of space to expand into I am well fortified and a much tougher target then the other AI races.

You will see this tendency come out in other things such as how I defend my planets, design ships and go about conquering my neighbors. I am sure that many interesting discussions will evolve from comparing our two strategies, which is after all what a good succession game is all about. :)


I agree with you that the AI "cheats" when it comes to those early alliances, and I can understand why you'd find it annoying. I do too, sometimes. It reminds me that this is an AI, not an intelligent opponent, and that in a few cases, it's playing by different rules. Those early alliances tend to be rather short-lived, though, and the AI is not predisposed to declare war out of the blue (except for erratics). Instead, it targets worlds.

I think you hit it on the head there. I can remember at least four or five recent games where I have lost to that mechanism in my struggle to be consistently successful at higher difficulty levels. I donít have as much trouble with it now but its still fresh in my mind and thus influences my strategy.

Of course I also favor a little less aggressive strategy then you. I think on the whole I am much more likely to yield some stars early in the game rather then aggressively contest them. Instead I like to hold back, be peaceful and make my move later in the game.

On the other hand, if I do have a general weakness in strategy gaming it is that I am not aggressive enough. I certainly wouldnít be surprised if I needed to adopt something different to push up to impossible level. We shall see. If nothing else this will be a good opportunity to practice something diffrent.

Sirian
Apr 13, 2004, 05:15 PM
The Alkari have not expanded to the Ultra Poor world. I'm a bit surprised at that, but believe it or not, my prediction ability is not calibrated to Average difficulty, so I may err more in trying to anticipate AI performance here than I would on higher difficulty, underestimating some things, overestimating others.

The first thing I do is check for LR Colony ships. Yes, we can build those with some room to spare. I design the ship and order up three of them at our core systems. This will slow research markedly, but I still keep between 50 to 100 RP flowing from a combination of trickles.

I assess our defense base situation and find none. That will be rectified. I will make standing up some defenses a priority.

As mentioned in my last post, I increase force field funding so that it surges past other projects. This is because I intend to attack immediately. :eek:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2360ad.jpg

Gorra's a poor world with lots of unemployed. Shipping some off to pound some dirt :hammer: WILL slow this planet's growth, but better here than anywhere else. Conveniently, troops from this system can reach the target planet in ten turns, the exact duration of my SG round, so that I will get to see the action and fight for space superiority on the incoming, if the Alkari have ships in orbit. Good. I confirm the order to send the maximum number.

This is a gambit. I am sending troops "blind". We have a couple of laser frigates (unshielded?) at Trax, and I will build one or two more to send with them. The Alkari had a couple dozen popgun fighters. Those may still be hanging around. If so, even if the small force of ships I intend to send in loses, I'll attrit some of the enemy and most of our transports will make it through.

The risk is, if the Alkari bring forth a larger force than I expect, it is possible they will have enough in orbit to destroy ALL of our incoming transports, in which case the entire attack and all the expenditure and lost productivity will go for naught. That's the risk.

A more prudent course of action would be to build warships and establish space superiority at the system first. But trying to attack this early doesn't lend well to that because it will take SO LONG for the transports to follow through, it might be worse than sending them blind. The Alkari might retaliate with a stronger force and knock our fleet out of orbit, where a surprise attack might have gotten through. Still, it would be safer to send a larger fleet escort, but I've got our core planets working on LR Colony ships instead of building warships, so this really is going to be a gambit move. Whichever way it works out, I promise you it won't be boring! :lol:

After making my initial changes to orders, as listed above, I also decide to allocate all of our 40BC in reserve. I spend a max amount at Trax, 29BC, to double its production this turn. I spend the rest down at the artifacts planet. In both cases, I reduce the eco slider some to reflect the addition. Adding money to a planet usually means a lower percentage of the new total is needed, so you'll waste a couple of ticks if you don't adjust it.

Now I press next turn, then again, and our colony ship arrives at Xudax, the U-poor in the south.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2361ad.jpg

We're first to eight systems. At least the Psilons aren't running away with the game on the other side of the galaxy!

Imagine if we met a race of extraterrestrials (in real life) and this was their first message to us.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2361ad-a.jpg

Haha! Well, I guess we'll put that theory to the test some day.

Here's a look at the glorious Silicoid empire.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2362ad.jpg

They have seven systems. We didn't beat them to eight by much, did we?

I initiate the maximum trade agreement.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2362ad-a.jpg

Since I know this will incur an initial monetary cost (loss) this will also siphon a few BC from each planet and most will need another tick in Eco to clean up all the waste. Since I need to go through all our planets now and check for waste, I decide now's a good time to initiate espionage against our Alkari targets.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2362ad-b.jpg

Siphoning a percentage of our total budget to spend toward spy networks or internal security also messes with the planets, so if I do both these things at one time, a single readjustment round will correct for both planetary income changes at one time.

Like the planetary sliders, the spy sliders have 25 ticks. I add ten to our Alkari spying and press the Espionage button so our spies will attempt to steal research. (Leaving spies on Hide means they only gather information on techs and try to avoid being detected).

Sirian
Apr 13, 2004, 06:20 PM
The primary down side to spying is getting caught. This can hurt relations, and if spying on friends with whom good relations are important, this could cost you a game. On the other hand, if you are already at war, there is no down side to being caught. (Well, other than your spies being, uh, "interrogated" and the suffering they will experience, but this is brutal kind of game, at times, you see). In empire terms, the only down side to spying while at war is the cost invested into the spy networks. If your returns are worth less than what you spend, well, then you spent unwisely.

Spying involves significant strategic elements.

The cost of the first spy (spy network, but hereafter to be called "spy" because I'm lazy) is related to your computer tech level. The second (having two at the same time) costs DOUBLE what the first costs. The third costs double what the SECOND costs. Thus, the costs ramp up exponentially. Each additional spy supported simultaneous costs more than all the others already active, COMBINED.

Well then... the answer is obvious, right? Spend cheaply. Keep one or maybe two spies active at all times and let them work.

Nope, that's not the answer. Each individual spy network has a fixed maximum capability. In terms of sabotage, it's a few factories per spy per turn that could be blown up, or a small number of missile bases, or a limited number of target population that are incited to revolt. In the case of espionage, each spy has a limited ability to penetrate into the target's research facilities. SPIES CAN COMBINE THEIR EFFECTS. If multiple spies are highly successful on the same turn, the combined effect will have much more impact in the case of sabotage, or be able to penetrate the enemy research network more deeply to steal more highly classified research projects.

Stealing high level techs from high up on the tree is a difficult proposition even for the Darloks. You get what you pay for.

Espionage can be a powerful tool in this game, but there's nothing no-brainer about it. Spying early in the game is a fairly easy proposition as one or two spies can penetrate and gain access to all the available techs, or knock off factories or missile bases to significant effect when one or two missile bases is a big deal, or half a dozen factories lost on a key border world really sets back its growth curve. Later in the game, you've got to spend a lot more if you want that kind of effectiveness.

Spying and GETTING CAUGHT pisses off the target. Sometimes the worst thing you can do is spend a trickle into spying trying to fish around for techs, making miniscule penetrations and ending up at war over a theft of ECM Jammer I or Controlled Barren.

Intense diplomatic strategies that make espionage a significant strategic priority can be effective, but one needs to understand how (when possible) to identify from the available fields just how much penetration has been accomplished on a given successful espionage mission, so that you can get the most valuable tech available.

Zed suggested (somewhere on the RB forum -- I haven't been to the Team Two thread) that a good strategy when aiming for a particular tech is to keep stealing from the same field. That's a good plan, and it will work if the desired tech does not lie beyond your maximum possible penetration level for the amount of spying that you're doing. But that's not the end-all strategy. If you know the tech tree, and you've studied your opponents and the techs they currently know, and you can correctly identify the level of a given penetration, you can know exactly which techs you'll pull in many situations.

(Can you tell I've played the Darloks a time or two? :lol: )

Now here's another key. Successful spies can also combine their chances to frame another race for your activity. If multiple spies are successful on the same turn, and none are caught, you only need one to succeed in the effort to blame another civ, so having more chances to do it improves the ratio at which you manage to frame others. Thus you not only score bigger grabs or inflict more pain when funding multiple spies, you also turn rivals against one another more often.

Remember, though, EACH additional spy costs as much as all the previous ones combined. So it gets really REALLY pricey trying to make spying a central strategy. You don't have to be a Darlok to pull it off, though. They just happen to be able to do it a lot better.

Even if you don't make spying your gameplan, though, it will often be worth your time to understand as a tool in your tool chest.


In this game, since I've launched an attack against the Alkari, they make for a good spying target right now. If we get caught, it won't hurt us much because when that attack arrives, that's going to dwarf any upsets they have with us over espionage.

In fact, if the attack succeed and we take the planet, they WILL declare war. If any of the troops run the gauntlet of their orbiting defenses and manage to land, then even if they keep the planet they'll be REALLY UNHAPPY. Only if they have a major fleet parked in orbit and blast all the transports to smithereens will they not care and not react negatively. Then again, I'm going to send attack ships, too, so there will be a fight one way or another. And if you know you're in for a hot war, that's a good time to decide to do some spying.


2364AD: Four turns have passed since the attack was launched. The ETA on our transports is now 6 turns. I expect the planet to be full of Alkari when I arrive (full as in maxed on pop) because the AI doesn't pussyfoot with sending colonists. It ships lots and fills up new colonies quickly.

Even Bulrathi are well short of invincible in ground combat. That's a size 45 planet, and I've got 30 on the way. Would be nice to send more. Well, that's what I do.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2364ad.jpg

When coordinating assaults from multiple source planets, it is often wise to synchronize arrival times. With 6 turns to go on the transport fleet from Gorra, and 6 turn ETA from Ursa to the target, now's the time to launch from Ursa. I send 18m. Then I max spending to the eco slider to replace these faster.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2364ad-a.jpg

Ursa has about 158 BC net, and at 20 BC per million colonists grown with eco spending, you can see it adds up to +8m. Pricey, but if the attack succeeds, we will have taken a planet. How much cost is it worth to add another planet to our empire? How much is it worth to deprive an enemy of the planet?

This attack could have waited, and perhaps ideally it SHOULD have waited; but for this situation, it should not have waited another 60 years for the game to come back around to me, and I didn't want to push any of our little birdies out of the nest with instructions to attack. "Go fly little birdie". Birdy drops like a stone and goes splat on the ground. Oops. Nope, don't want that, so I'll show all the little birdies a bit about how to flap the wings, launch from the nest, catch a thermal updraft, etc. THEN I'll push the lil bastids out of the nest and tell em to fly. :lol:

And if my gambit fails, I'll have the ignominious glory of instructing you all to "do as I say, not as I do". :p

Papa bird may be so busy looking back to chirp at lil birdies that he doesn't watch where he's going and flies into a tree trunk. :lol:


By the way, I built an LR Colony on the previous turn, then learned I could build only one Laser1 frigate on this turn, so I did that. I have only one to send from here, plus three at Trax to send. Will four frigates be enough? Maybe. Maybe I'll get lucky and find nobody at home and it won't matter.

Now here's a trick. If an important colony ship is just one tick short on the last turn, you can "cut corners" by shorting the Eco slider.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2364ad-b.jpg

Divert money from waste cleanup to finish the ship that turn. This will get a colony started a whole turn sooner.

IMPORTANT: don't short eco two turns in a row. It will drop the max planet pop value and may kill millions of people. Shorting the waste cleanup is a one-turn-only emergency measure. This is also a useful move when desperately trying to stand up an extra missile base while there are enemy incoming.

Sirian
Apr 14, 2004, 02:07 AM
Clicking next turn, a scout finds another R system in the south.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2364ad-c.jpg

That could make it difficult for us to reach those two isolated stars down in the corner.

Our spying efforts reveal the Alkari tech situation.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2365ad.jpg

Note the "Environ" display bug. Usually that is contained to the Planetology panel, but this time it has spilled into the Propulsion section also. I have no idea what causes it, but it shows up almost every game and can be a little confusing. If you know the tech tree or have a reference sheet handy, you can figure out what it's supposed to be saying. In this case, the two buggy displays are Terraforming +10 and Range 5.

All five of the tech they have that are missing from our tree would be really sweet to grab. I decide to continue funding spying at the current level.

Press Next Turn...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2365ad-a.jpg

Bingo!

OK, let's examine the penetration level. Looking at the previous graphic, we see that the Alkari know techs we don't in planetology, propulsion and weapons. However, we have not penetrated enough on this mission to steal ANY propulsion techs. This reveals the penetration range and allows me to see that in fact this is a rather feeble success. Range 5 is a tech level 5 propulsion advance. We have not penetrated enough to steal tech of that level. Therefore, we have not penetrated enough to steal any techs of that level or higher in any other field, either.

The level of penetration sets the maximum possible tech level that you can grab. You not automatically grab the best available! That is important to know. Instead, the game will identify all techs that are accessible to that mission's degree of penetration, then all techs that you COULD steal in a given field, on that mission, are dumped into a pool and one is grabbed at random.

So suppose there were three construction techs that they knew that we didn't. Suppose one was tech level 3, another tech level 8 and a third tech level 11. If we made a penetration to level 5, and chose construction as the field from which to steal, the only tech that goes into the drawing would be the level 3 tech, and that's 100% chance that we'd steal that one. If our penetration level instead went to level 9, and we chose from this field, we'd have a 50-50 chance of grabbing either the level 3 or the level 8 tech. If we penetrated to level 13, it would be a one-third chance for each.

Now suppose, taking the example above, that we would really like to get the level 11 tech. However, there's a tech in another field at level 12 that we might also want, and it is the ONLY tech in that field that they have that we don't know. If we made a level 13 penetration, we'd have only a one-third chance to grab the higher level construction tech, but a 100% chance to grab that level 12 from the other field.

So how can this be applied to the current situation? Well, if had penetrated enough to be eligible to steal a propulsion tech, we would have no idea how deeply we'd penetrated. We'd only know that it was at least to level 5, because any less and there would be no propulsion options on the table. Instead, we know that we did not reach level 5.

There's only one weapon tech in play, but there are two techs in the planetology field. On THIS MISSION, we have not penetrated enough to have any chance at all to grab Terraforming +20. So our choice is between +10 and Hand Laser. Being Bulrathi, with an attack already in progress, I opt to get the Hand Laser now. The terraforming would be more valuable to pump up our economy, but perhaps the Hand Laser will make the difference in our success on the invasion mission.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2365ad-b.jpg

Our troops will automatically use the best available, so that means these new Hand Lasers will become available for the invasion. (Don't ask me how they're manufactured onboard our attack fleet prior to the invasion, because I don't know).

Since we are about to engage in hostilities, I am building some bases in our core.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2366ad.jpg

The first to be built will be at Gion. Ursa and Imra are also building bases. Ursa has regrown its 18 pop points in two turns. That includes both natural growth and economic spending, combining to restore the planet to max pop after two turns and about 300BC of investment.

2367AD: We have been nurturing a ripening on weapons tech since my round started. I came in with a low probability to learn Gatling Laser and that has been slowly creeping up. Research spending has been very low this round because I build colony ships at a fast clip, and now building defense bases at a catch-me-up rate. Finally, Gatling Laser is learned, and our choices for the next tier are also quite thin.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2367ad.jpg

I take the Ion cannon. It appears that Ion Rifle ground weapon is also absent from our tree. (I think). So good that we stole the hand laser. In other bad news, Hyper-X missiles are not an option, and Scatter Pack V may also be absent. Ion Cannon is a nice weapon to have if we're going to be in a fight, though. The useful lifespan of lasers (even gatling laser) comes to an end once the enemy deploys Class III deflectors. Ion cannons will retain some ability to damage the enemy far beyond that, and heavy ion cannon can have an even longer run.

My focus on force fields has Class II shields also now ripening.

We are hit with a disaster:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2367ad-a.jpg

Xudax? That's the U-poor in the south. Lucky break for us, maybe. That system has only a few pop points. I check... Oops, maybe not. Twenty transports have just arrived between turns, concurrent with the Nova event. You know, I'm not sure I've ever seen that before. I know the Nova event scales to the planet's current production (so that you always have a valid opportunity to save the star system) but I don't know if it will use the small population number that was there last turn or the much larger number that was there this turn! We'll find out.

I had nothing in the reserves. (Remember I spent it at the start of the round, to give two of our vital colonies a shot in the arm on their growth curves). If the Nova did not account for the arriving immigrants, then they will pump up production mightily and the Nova event will be solved very quickly. If the Nova factored in the new arrivals, the total cost to solve the problem will be much higher. I set Ursa to pump enough money into reserve to be able to double Xudax production next turn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2368ad.jpg

Just in case the worst case happens, we don't want to risk losing the system. (If the Nova is not solved, the planet will be destroyed).

Sirian
Apr 14, 2004, 02:34 AM
Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good.

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We have learned Class II shield while the breakthrough percentage was still very low! I guess that makes up for the delays on learning Gatling Laser, which had dragged out.

Class III is missing from our tree. So Personal Deflector it is. That is good, another gropo tech. :hammer:

In other news, the Nova event did not factor the new arrivals at Xudax, and they have boosted production so much, the problem has already been solved!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2368ad-b.jpg

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. :lol:

I didn't even have to use any of the reserve. I take Ursa off of industrial spending and put that money back into bases and research.


OK, so it is now 2369AD. My coordinated 3-system attack is about to play out. We have transports from Gorra and Ursa, and ships from Ursa and Trax, all arriving simultaneously at Jinga.

I press next turn. Let the battle be joined! :shotgun:

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Space combat. Yeah, bring on those popgun fighters. Yeah.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2369ad-a.jpg

Um... no. What is that doing here? Aw crap. It usually takes about six or seven medium ships to equal a large. This is not good news. I anticipated facing SMALL ships, which is what we knew they had from before.

Well, we still have a chance. Our four medium ships have battle computers and six lasers each. As anticipated, the planet is at max pop. We know that ship has no advanced weaponry, because we've seen the Alkari don't know any weapon tech besides hand laser. They didn't have a shield tech above class I either, nor any armor. Indeed, their ship has 100 hp. I must tell you frankly, though, the odds here do not favor us.

I use our Scout 2 ship to approach the enemy ship first. It gets blasted out of the sky at two space range. The enemy design is packing heavy lasers and nuclear missiles. Our frigates close and engage.

We shoot, they shoot and back up a space. We chase, we shoot, they shoot. We chase and shoot, they shoot and destroy one of our ships. Here's the situation at this point, their ship still above half strength.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2369ad-b.jpg

We are still in the fight! Maybe we can pull this off.

We shoot, and mostly we miss. They shoot, POW. High damage, killed a ship in one shot. Yeowch. I don't give up. We close, we shoot, arrgh another low damage shot for us. They shoot, POW, we're down to one ship. Game, set and match to Alkari.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2369ad-c.jpg

We brought a knife to a gunfight. Uh... oops.

I manage to limp out of there with one survivor. The Alkari got in another shot (there is a one-turn delay between ordering a retreat and actually retreating). I think we had 1 hp left, or maybe 2. This is not good news. That large ship and its weapons will be shooting our incoming transports like duck cutouts at a carnival shooting booth.

Sirian
Apr 14, 2004, 02:58 AM
I have been keeping an eye on Alkari tech. They have learned two techs since our weapon theft. They have learned ECM Jammer II and Industrial Tech 9.

Our invasion is still pending. Space combat took place first, now espionage, then a colony ship will settle, and the invasion will be the last thing resolved for this between-turn phase.

Our spies succeed!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2369ad-d.jpg

We have not penetrated enough to grab ECM II, which is a level 7 tech. Yet we can grab a propulsion tech. This means we have penetrated 5 or maybe 6 layers of security. Terraforming +20 is a level 8 tech and we have no chance to grab it on this try. So, the options on the table include: Industrial 9 (we already have 8), Terraforming 10, Range 5 and MAYBE Nuclear Engine, which is a level 6 tech. Maybe the engine, maybe not. I can conclude only that our penetration is above level 4 and below level 7.

Clearly the best value in this case is to grab a propulsion tech. We could take Terraforming 10 another day, on a lower penetration success. We may have needed TWO spies succeeding to get this deep. If not, we certainly needed a luckier roll, as we have gone deeper than the last time out. We ourselves have such a drought in our propulsion branch that either propulsion tech will offer a major boost. I make the logical grab.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2369ad-e.jpg

Either the engine was not an option, or we rolled unlucky. In any event, we grab Range 5. That's a 1000 RP value.

Our first LR Colony arrives up north.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2369ad-f.jpg

I will send a scout on from there to the unscouted system up in the corner. Whether or not to send colonists on a long journey up to that system will be Charis's decision to make.


OK, so now for the big battle. Ouchie. That lone Alkari ship shoots down half our transports! The other half run the gauntlet and make it to the planet surface.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2369ad-g.jpg

OK, here we go. Pound some dirt. Boots on the ground. Knock some heads. Mix it up. :hammer:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2369ad-h.jpg

Due to losses inflicted in space, by the orbiting Alkari fleet of one ship, the invasion fails. :(

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2369ad-i.jpg

We inflicted significant casualties, so the mission is not a total wash, but I failed to anticipate the Alkari building a large ship and having it parked there. (They tend to favor small ships!)

I hope you find this instructive. How to coordinate an attack, how many troops to send, the risks of sending an attack blind, without first having firm control in orbit with a fleet, and the potential rewards of aggression if you do correctly identify how much strength is needed to win the day.

Sirian
Apr 14, 2004, 03:40 AM
Thanks in part to the small boost I gave to its growth curve earlier, transfering some BC from reserve to the artifacts planet, it has maxed factories as my round ends.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2369ad-j.jpg

I order a missile base to be built at the best possible rate. Be nice to have two or three in place there before we turn the planet to heavy research. At least, that's what I would do. I'm a cautionary sort when it comes to protecting my territory.


The Alkari are less than pleased, to say the least.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2370ad.jpg

However, they have only withdrawn their ambassador. No war declaration was issued, and they have not cancelled our trade agreement. If we had succeeded, we'd be at war right now. They may yet declare on us soon, as relations are now in the toilet. In for a penny, in for a pound. If I were in charge next round, I'd press another attack!

Also note, TWO spies. We may have needed both to penetrate as deeply as we did, or maybe not. If at any point one of the spies gets seriously unlucky, found, interrogated, and gives up information, all our spies in place at that time will be discovered and we'll be starting over on building up our spies. Thus, the more spies needed to succeed at a hard task, the longer the odds become of pulling it off. Keeping up in computer tech is absolutely essential to any spying strategy. Fall too far behind and it becomes virtually impossible to achieve a major penetration.

Meanwhile, Trax (which also got an earlier boost from reserves) has reached the factory threshold. There are 32m pop, 63 factories. I change the spending over to defenses. Be nice to stand up a base here at this point, maybe two, in case the Alkari counter with an offensive move of their own.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2370ad-a.jpg

If we are going to battle for Jinga again, we will need to assemble a winning fleet. We just learned new weapon and shield techs. If we are ever to put them to good use, now's the time, as their value decays toward obsolescence with each passing turn.

I design a new warship.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2370ad-b.jpg

We need to gain as much attack rating benefit as we can, thus the need for better computers. We can gain a level of computer value from a Battle Scanner, but those are currently too pricey to put on medium ships. Thus, a large ship. Also, we want to load up that new shield, and that is also better done on a large ship. Also, we suffered attrition in the medium ships. Even if we had won the day, we'd have lost strength. In this situation, I'd say we're clearly better off with a couple of large ships loaded to the gills with our best goodies, than we would be with a swarm of smaller ships. If a large ship gets in trouble, retreat can be ordered with less likelihood of having taken any casualties. All ship damage is repaired between turns, so any ship that survived a fight will be back to full strength next time. (Yep, that means we did NO damage to Alkari fleets in this attack).

I order up our best two worlds to construct the new design. We'll produce one apiece at Ursa and Gion in five turns. With relocate orders, that's two more turns to reach Trax, and four turns from there to Jinga. So it will take at least eleven turns to return to Jinga, from the current situation.

HOWEVER... we do have active spies in the Alkari empire. Should we steal more tech BEFORE any of the new Gatling ships are built, a redesign should be done. If we steal nuclear engines (the most desired prize in this situation), add the new engine, add class 2 maneuvering, and reduce weaponry accordingly, with as many gatlings onboard as will fit, then whatever looks good in the leftover space. If we steal ECM II, that won't help a lot, but will reduce computer costs and may allow for replacing that nuke rack with another gatling, or some other similar deal.

The thing about designing ships is there are only six total slots. So if we field a lot of designs, we'll have to scrap older models to enable more upgrades. Right now, the original scout design could be scrapped, if desired.

Unless we steal Warp Two engine from the Alkari in the next couple of turns, Charis will not be able to see a winning combat move on his round, due to the unavailability of naval vessels. If nuclear engines are stolen in time, the Gatling ships would move faster and could reach Jinga on this round. Unfortunately, trying to guess around this unlikely but possible scenario is too risky to be betting the lives of troops. We would not want to send troops from Gorra too soon, only to have them all shot up and the navy arrive the next turn, a turn too late. :crazyeye: Sending troops from closer systems might be a good possibility, though. If Charis does steal the engine tech, he could carry out an attack that plays on his turn. If not, at best can set up Jabah. Charis has the green light on any attack move he wants to try.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2370ad-c.jpg

Whether or not it's worth sending troops from Gorra up to Spica is Charis's choice. There are also two LR Colony ships in flight to the south, due to arrive on his round, and Gorra might be the best supply point for populating them. We have some frigates down there for roughing up any Silicoid aggressors, so keep an eye on their fleet movements and try to respond accordingly if they make an aggressive move.

Here's the galaxy as it now stands.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2370ad-d.jpg

Charis, you can also call off the Gatling construction if you decide not to try to make another push for Jinga. We could wait for armor upgrades, more weapons, etc, but keep in mind that Gatlings have a limited lifespan, so don't go half measure. Pick aggression or growth and prioritize it, would be my advice. Either can work.


Charis Ursan Takes Charge (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2370ad.zip)

Good luck. :goodjob:


- Sirian

Charis
Apr 14, 2004, 08:57 AM
Pound some dirt. Boots on the ground. Knock some heads. Mix it up. :hammer:

:eek: <-- little birdie

Methinks there is a correlation between mama birdies moves and the roster order :lol:

They don't call 'em gambits for nothing :P That was very instructive indeed. I'm not sure I've ever even done a ground invasion, so that was a needed clinic. The spying was also hugely instructive, and far more profitable than I would have imagined.

We seemed to get a 3:2 kill ration on the invasion, so with 45 defenders, at the current technology level we need to have 31+ troops survive the gauntlet and make it to the planet in order to own it. It's rather interesting for the gropo race to mix it up with the fighter pilot race. Do we really stand a chance to outgun them and take control of the airspace? They had no bases in place last time, would I be correct in thinking next time they should have one or a few?

There's one thing I agree on, it's full bore or just snore. I'm not sure which path yet, I'll have to take a closer look at things
Is there any threat from the Silicoids or other neighboring race?

Charis

Sirian
Apr 14, 2004, 10:34 AM
It's rather interesting for the gropo race to mix it up with the fighter pilot race. Do we really stand a chance to outgun them and take control of the airspace?

Did they really stand a chance to beat us on the ground?

The answer to both is yes. Bring more dogs to the race, or equip your dog with the latest greatest Nikes. :lol:

Our class II shield and gatling lasers help give us an edge. For the moment. That balance will shift again, but the Gatling I designed should be the equal of the Alkari large ship OR BETTER, even factoring their defense bonus. They not only have to have the ships, they would have to have them in position. If you build two Gatlings, that may do the job. It may not. Might need four. If you send em and the numbers during combat aren't looking good, beat a retreat and live to come back with a larger fleet.

They will ship troops to the planet. It only had ten factories built, it's a decent interval away from building a base. If we keep up the pressure, they won't get a base stood up. If we pull back now, they might have the chance to entrench. Whatever planet they send troops from will suffer. They don't tend to pay heavy on eco to regrow pop, so having them shipping off colonists to the front lines to reinforce will weaken their core more than it will ours, since we won't leave our core planets with max factories on low pop for extended periods. Pay to regrow them, or ship some back from Gorra, or some other solution that minimizes idle factories.


They had no bases in place last time, would I be correct in thinking next time they should have one or a few?

Look at how long it will take Trax to build a base. That's FIVE TURNS to build ONE base with 63 fully utilized factories. So figure about 300 or so factory-turns. At their current level of 10 factories, if they spent max on base building it'd take approaching thirty turns to build a base. If they infuse the planet with reserve cash peeled off the core, it would still take 15 turns. And you can bet they aren't going max on base building. They're still trying to stand up factories.

The AI can surprise you with how much sooner it can stand up new bases, because it makes heavy use of taxation and redistribution of reserve money. But it does obey the same general rules mechanics on the economic side, so I'd bet at least twenty turns before we see a base appear there. Especially since I just killed off 70% of the population. :lol:


As for other threats... No threat from the Sakkra for the foreseeable future. The Silicoids have been fairly respectful of our blockades. They are the slowest growing race, the one who can least afford to throw away population trying to invade Bulrathi colonies. We could get aggressive with them, too, but you know the addages about two-front warfare. Build a couple of bases on our southern core colonies, especially at the artifacts planet, and that should contain the damage even if they attack. Last I checked, we had higher fleet strength than they do, and we've got bubkis for ships. You can keep an eye on their fleet bar on the graphs to see if that balance starts to change. I doubt it will during your round.


They don't call 'em gambits for nothing :P

I tend to play it safer with most races. For some reason, the Bulrathi inspire me to take big risks. That wasn't a move inconsistent with my general Bulrathi playstyle. Not in the least. Just that if I were doing it solo, then (just as with the early tech check on my last round) I wouldn't be bending to the SG structure. I'd have gone with a slightly stronger fleet than that and taken less risk. However, for these purposes, I almost welcome the mixed result I did get. More informative about figuring out how much strength is needed and how to evaluate for that.

Safe flight, lil birdie. And remember, it's not the fall that hurts, but the sudden stop at the end. :lol:

It ain't over until the fat chickadee sings. As long as you haven't actually impacted the ground yet, there's still time to beat those wings and catch the wind.


- Sirian

Justus II
Apr 14, 2004, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by Sirian

It ain't over until the fat chickadee sings. As long as you haven't actually impacted the ground yet, there's still time to beat those wings and catch the wind.

- Sirian

Just had to comment on the irony of that statement. Although it's generally a truism, Ground Combat in MOO is one area it doesn't quite apply to! Once the Marines are sent, they WILL impact the ground, or die trying, there's no wind to catch. ;) That's why they are the deciding factor in timing an invasion: fleets can always retreat and be resent, but once the ground troops are committed, D-Day is set.

Fleets and troops in MOO reminds me of the moral of the bacon and egg breakfast. The chickens may be Dedicated, but the pig's Committed! ;)

And whatever you do, don't bomb the colony out of existence while they are enroute, as they will then experience that Sudden Stop you mentioned earlier. :eek: (Not that I've had any recent experience with that.... ) :rolleyes:

Charis
Apr 15, 2004, 12:44 AM
Charis Ursan takes the world stage while yet but a regent, in the midst
of a situation that is tense. We're in a feud state with the Alkari, but not
(yet) an open war. We made a very bold attempt to wrest the planet Jinga from
them, and came up just a bit short. The big question is... go full bore after that
planet with the temporary edge of new gattling laser technology, or solidify our
position with Gorra and the other LR world to be colonized up by Spica.
Not even Charis' closest advisors know, but they look closely at the situation.

Two points strike me as odd. First, next to Jinga, is an *un*occupied Arid world.
To bypass that for Jinga is interesting. Second, there is an unexplored yellow star
up North. I look through the records to see if we know anything about this world.
I find nothing. Ah, a scout from Spica is due to head there.

I take a look at planets and population. We have two max pop/factory planets, and
the rest are building industry. There are two Gattling ships in production, which
seem like enough to match what they should have at Jinga.

The thing that impresses me about Jinga is that it's an ideal launchpad for the
Alkari, and a critical point defense for us. If we can hold it and stand up, the
Alkari can never hurt us. If we let them keep it, several of our other worlds are
in jeopardy. I favor continuing the theme, knowing that if I fail, well... the game
will take the flavor of 'impossible' and keep it interesting for our stronger players!

Assuming we want the mini-fleet to arrive the same turn as the troops, and they'll
take about 5-6 turns to get there, the timing will be off.

2370 - I want to know asap about the NE corner yellow star. A scout from Mu Delphi
to its SW can reach it one turn earlier than the scout planned from Spica,
so I divert the Spica scout to Mu and send a Mu scout to yellow, eta in 3.

I speed up the ship due at Ursa by one turn. To do the same at Gion I will need
a small bit of planetary reserve. I do this transfer. I put Imra above max on ind
to build up a few more reserves. It's hopefully not a huge setback, but will mean
I can have two Gattling ships on hand instead of 1 on the turn I want.

ETA for the invasion force to hit is turn 10. Where will troops come from, and how
far away are they?
- Imra 55/55 7 turns can spare 20 on turn 3
- Gorra 53/70 10 turns, could spare 15 *now*
- Argus 51/70 10 turns, could spare 15 *now*
- Trax 32/45 4 turns, could spare 10 on turn 6.
- Xudax and Spica are too small. Gienah is our artifact planet, not wise.
- Gion and Ursa are 6 away but we need all pop for ship production

I estimated we need 30 troops on the ground to land to take the colony. With some
margin for safety that would be 40 and if we account for 0-50% attrition in space,
we'll want to send 40-80 troops. I'm counting 40-50 above.

Is there any way to colonize Klystra (the arid green) and the long range NE this turn?
If the two ship planets build colonies next, yes. That then is the plan for this
reign, for better or worse, lots of people movement.

Charis Ursan must pull the trigger NOW and sends marines from Gorra and Argus.
Finally, I increase research at our artifact planet, and slow its base. It's way too
backline for my fears and a new tech in next 5 turns could be a huge break in the war.

2371 - zzz
2372 - Nothing on my turn, but IBT we scout Bootis the corner yellow star. Not bad,
a jungle 85. More important, our colony ship arrives at Dunatis and we found there,
a yellow Terran system, pop max 95, excellent.

In worse news though, we see an Alkari ship! :eek: It's a lone colony ship. I'm
not sure if it's armed, but it's heading for that green unclaimed planet east of
Jinga. This is *our* planet in my mind, and even if it's armed, we're going to
take that one as well as Jinga. Actually, we have a single Laser ship guarding
the system!

2373 - Marines take off from Imra! Ursa's ship is due next turn, and I micro the
ind slider to avoid wasting BC on the ship. For Gion to finish it's ship next turn,
I have to go into waste for 1 turn. It will get cleaned next turn, but we seem
to be just a few pennies short of making this critical ship show up next turn.

I'm concerned I'll end up short and look for extra reserve pennies. I find a few,
in an unexpected place. We want to scrap the original scout design, but we have two
of them. The ones we have are at our own planets, and so are not critical for blockades.
I scrap the design and take the few BC from those and thrown them at Gion. Presto,
the Gattling ship is due next turn! (Note, if it was NOT, now that I had an empty
slot, I was free to make a mini-Gattling design with one less gun and be sure it could
be ready next turn too.)

IBT - Excellent news...

** Our spies infiltrated an Alkari base ** My first steal!! We have FOUR choices to
us, Computer, Construction, Planetology, Production. I look over Sirians notes and see
that this could mean almost anything as far as infiltration level. I wish now I had
looked to see what tech they had (ok, that's a learning tip) The computer choice is
brand new, suggesting either a higher infiltration, or they learned a non-state-of
the art computer tech. With our ships due this turn, propulsion/Nuclear Engine
would be a turn late. I think that if we wanted the highest 'lvl' tech, I would
pick Computers, since it picks "up to" the infiltration level, and that field has
the highest 'lowest' tech. But it would probably be an ECM system that I'm not
fond of. The Propulsion one would be Nuclear Engines, nice, even if late. The
planetology would be some kind of terraforming. Construction would be... improved
tech. I think those fast engines will help us compete with these fighter pilots,
so I do choose the Propulsion field.

** We steal Nuclear Engines ** (Comments? Should I have gone for lvl 7 computer tech)

BTW, the Alkari colony ship is not heading for Trax. It's heading NE.

Finally, we found the desert planet of Rana 40.

2374 - I now get a report, here what was on the table:
Computers: ECM III and Improved Robotics III (gah, if I read Sirian's articles correctly,
this would be too soon and actually hurt our growth). Construction: Imp Tech 9 (minor)
Propulsion: nothing up on us, just the warp 2. Planetology Improved Terraform +10/+20.
I think looking at these, warp 2 was best.

BTW, we're down to 'Hate' from Feud and an ambassador is in place. Not for long!

Gattling ships are ready to leave from Ursa and Gion!! :hammer:
These planets were going to start on LR Colony and Colony respectively, but
we now have a tiny window to try to build a few new warp 2 ships?
Gion and Ursa can make a Laser2 in one turn, with warp 2, one gattling, one laser,
and to soften the planet(?) one nuclear bomb. This is likely a bad design you'll
want to scrap, but let's see if it can help.

Imra sends 15 colonists to the new terran world Dunadis. Argus send 18 to Spica.
Xudax sends 16 to Rama. Some will take a while to get there, but this will get
every new world into the accelerated zone for growth.

IBT - Scout in nebula finds green star Moro as barren (hostile).
The Alkari ship is moving due north, lol, right toward the uninhabited green star :P
Two Laser2's are produced and autorouted to Trax.

2376 - Marines take off from Trax. There is now a coordinated flow of ships all
heading for Jinga! Two more Laser2's are produced. T-4 for assault, and so it's
time for troops from Trax itself to ship out. The Gattling duo and two Laser 2 join them.

Ursa and Gion both start a LR Colony ship now, due in 4. (One could have been a
normal colony ship, as it's just heading right next to Jinga, but my extra Laser2
has not left us with a free design right now.)

That's the end of prep, next four turns will I hope be coasters.

IBT - At Moro a Psilon colony ship enters the system and it's armed, so we retreat.
What are they doing way over there?

2377 - zzz. IBT - Silicoids 'attack' us at unclaimed Klystron. We have a single Laser1
there, and they have just a colony ship. Why not contest it? It just retreats.
I notice now, rather late, we have some sentinels down south, and laser ships. I can't
do anything with them on my turn, but I point them out so maybe our next ldr can.

2378 - The nuclear engines on my baby Laser2 ships enable two of them to leave
Trax now and make it in time (2 turns) for the festivities.

2379 - I MM Usra and Gion sliders to just finish their ships and put extra to research.
Nervously, I await as the "Charis Armada" is due to engulf Jinga this round!... IBT:

SPACE COMBAT TIME! They have one large ship, a Wareeagle 100hp, and 7 Medium Sky Hawks
with 18hp. We have our two gattlings and four laser2's. It's my first 'serious' space
combat so I can only hope I don't ruin this. I scan first. The large ship has a scanner,
3 Nuclear missiles and 7 hvy lasers, 1 small laser. No shields. The smaller ship has
2 hvy lasers, no shields, warp/manuever 1. We likewise have 100 and 18 hps, and seem
to have good chances here. First to move is our Gattling ships. We move our guys up,
hiding behind astro fields, and they move up as well. My plan is to focus ALL firepower
at the big ship first, and will let the laser2's draw first fire. But is there any
reason not to let them move to us? Do we not get some asteroid protection? Why run
in the open to eat their missiles? The planet has no bases. We wait...

This works well - they split their ships, large one north, small south, and our
greater speed lets us flank them. Our large ships trade a missile, then we assault
with all we have from their northern flank. We take it down to 17hp in the first
real round of combat, and blow it out of existence in the next round. Our Gattlings
still have 49hp!

By using the wait command, I move up with the Laser 2, shoot, AND move back before
their lil guy can shoot. Likewise my gattling gets TWO full shots in before they
can retaliate and the first round I cut their number from 7 to 3, and they back up.
We again get first shot, and they're wiped out. I must say, my Heroes of Might and
Magic expertise paid off here in spades! (After posting the save file I came back
and loaded this turn just to hit 'auto' and see what happened, and the computer
managed to lose one Gattling and most Laser2's?? Oh my! Important tip learned in this:
even if you lack confidence, run the show, don't let it do auto ???)

Total annihilation of the Alkari Air Force at Jinga, and now we are able to land the
full complement of Bear Marines! :hammer:
They have 47 units and 19 factories. As suggested, I do NOT bomb.

We have 40-50 troops en route - almost a fair match. Except for 1 TINY little thing...
Remember I said I sent 50 colonists to Jinga? I lied! The thought of going this far
then failing by 10-15 units was something I couldn't stomach. So instead I stretched
out another 7 from Imra (27), 11 from Gorra (26), 5 from Argus (20), 5 from Trax (15),
and (gulp) 10 from Gienah, planning to repop those asap. It's a lot of shifting, but
it fit with the in-for-a-penny, in-for-a-pound philosophy. Oh, I sent 10 more for
good measure from Gion back on turn 4. Shoot me, but I *really* want Jinga!
That's a total of 101 Bears!! How much better than 101 Dalmatians?! Hmm, it says 81.
Well, doh, now that I look at it, I forgot to send the 20 from Argus?! Argh! :smoke:

Titanium and hand lasers on both sides, 81 Bears to 47 Birdies. We pound the ground.
Hit the dirt. Mix it up. When the dust settles, there are 57 Bear Marines still
standing, tall and proud, and there is no trace left of birds except for the
19 factories! :)

"We will follow you to the ends of the earth and rid the universe of the Bulthari
infestation (ambassador recalled)" Ha, come get some!

2380 - On another pleasant note, Argus just max'd factories, and is at 52 of 70 pop
since I forgot to send their marines. I see too now that the population is 51 max,
meaning that there was not enough room for 6 of the marines. I thought there was a
chance of that but ouch, it would have hurt pretty bad to lose an additional 20 from
the planned Argus shipment! Now THAT is a case of better lucky than good.

We're now officially at war, and trade has stopped. The silicoids have TWO single colony
ships heading somewhere, from just below Jinga. There are also a pair of fleets coming
in at Jinga. One is a single warbird (large) and one is a sky hawk (wimpy medium)
If they're heading for Jinga we will clean their clocks.

There's an LR Colony in Gion - send it where you like but I was thinking the yellow
NE system. The Ursa colony ship is auto-moving to Trax, where it can then continue
on to Klystrom I would think.

Jinga can put up a missile base in 7 turns, and I set it to do so. Consider even
throwing some reserve at it. Or if you prefer to make it stronger, go Industry.

Status shows that we gained on the Alkari on fleet strength after that battle,
are almost even in tech, are #1 in production (despite the choices we made that
slowed initial growth to go military) #1 population, #1 planets, and distinctly
#1 in overall power! :hammer: Go Bears!

I'm delighted at how this turn went. It may not be perfect, and I really welcome any
comments on it, but I took the bold path and it went well, and the invasion plans
worked to a tee. Add in a stolen tech to boot, and the bears are in great shape!

Sirian
Charis
Jabah <-- UP, and here is The save for 2380 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2380ad.zip)
Justus II <-- ON DECk
Isit
Garath

Good luck to Jabah, he's got a hot war on his hand but also the task of
continued colonization and build up and research! Pardon my lack of pictures, but I
hope the story telling has compensated?!

Charis

Justus II
Apr 15, 2004, 01:33 AM
Way to go, Charis Ursan! Your deeds will be recorded in the annals of Bear-kind! Good job making the most of the Nuclear steal, to get some more firepower into the fight. You may have also (inadvertently?) hit on a little trick in ship design:

Gion and Ursa can make a Laser2 in one turn, with warp 2, one gattling, one laser, and to soften the planet(?) one nuclear bomb.
By using the wait command, I move up with the Laser 2, shoot, AND move back before their lil guy can shoot.
That bomb comes in handy! Normally, when any ship fires all it's weapons, it's turn is over, even if it has movement remaining. However, if it has unfired weapons (i.e., in this case that lone bomb), you still get the ability to use it's remaining movement after the attack. That's why it's often a good idea when you have a little space remaining on a gun design to throw in a small bomb (or a single missle, but then you have to manually toggle the missle off during combat to get the 'split-move' effect).

Important tip learned in this: even if you lack confidence, run the show, don't let it do auto ???
Yep, the auto feature is about as effective as automating workers in Civ! :crazyeye: I only use it for fights where the AI is likely to retreat anyway, like when a lone colony ship arrives near my main fleet, and I don't want to waste the time to move all my ships first.

Great planning on getting the ground troops there, it's rarely a bad thing to send TOO MANY troops, as the extras just help get the new colony stood up that much quicker.

Jabah
Apr 15, 2004, 06:13 AM
quick 'got it', will play tonight .

Jabah

Bam-Bam
Apr 15, 2004, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by Justus II
That bomb comes in handy! Normally, when any ship fires all it's weapons, it's turn is over, even if it has movement remaining. However, if it has unfired weapons (i.e., in this case that lone bomb), you still get the ability to use it's remaining movement after the attack. That's why it's often a good idea when you have a little space remaining on a gun design to throw in a small bomb (or a single missle, but then you have to manually toggle the missle off during combat to get the 'split-move' effect).



Note that this trick only works when you are attacking a rival colony. Once you are defending or in neutral space (unclaimed world), the game will not retain movement because you have a bomb installed (nothing to bomb).

Charis
Apr 15, 2004, 08:57 AM
While I would like to say "yah! That's what I planned!" I in fact did not toggle the missile button off. I've seen mention of that but don't have a good understanding of bombs/missiles.

- If you don't hit the toggle, how do you fire missiles or bombs?
- If you do hit the toggle, how do you fire missiles or bombs?
I only see a green cursor on the target and no real choice about what I'm firing. If anyone has more detailed comments or a link on missiles, bombs, the missile toggle button, streaming, or other space combat tips, I would just love to hear them or get a link! :hammer:

Nope, I toasted these guys on raw maneuverability and HOMM tactics alone. I would get to just beyond their laser range, then hit 'wait'. If they move up I fire and will get to move before he can return fire. If they sit still I move up and fire, and still get to move before he can return fire. Likewise, from a longer distance, I can wait behind an asteroid field, move up, fire missile, and pop back down before a lower initiative ship can go. This is why we had no casualties, and why the autoplay got smacked down - it send one stack after one enemy stack, and one stack against another, got to min range and just traded shots! :eek:

The Alkari obviously have warp 2, as we stole it from them, so expect newer ship designs after the ones currently in service to match us in maneuverability. That doesn't bode well for our Gattling1 design. What to scrap next btw? We have LR Colony (2), Scout 2 (many), Laser1 (7ish?), Laser2 (4), Gattling1 (2), Sentinel (2??). I'm not sure if the Laser2 design is anygood either, with that bomb on board. Due to their ability to do well with nimble small designs, fighting against the Alkari, wouldn't we be better off with larger ships?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but effective use of the 'wait' button seems to me to be one of the most powerful tactics one can use in space combat. (?!)

BTW, is spying normally this effective? I was surprised (happy!) to see it come up this round for me, and it's come up twice before? While we have the 'luxury' of a hot war, would it make sense to get a third spy in there? We're running 2 spies for 4% income now. We could afford another 4% and it would double our chances and improve penetration? Picking up some planetary techs, or getting any new propulsion/weapon/shield/computer techs would be a nice addition to our 'overall research effort'.

While I'm at it, I have one last comment. The SG nature of the game is manifesting itself here strongly. What do I mean by that? The opening of research fields to know what's up and to discuss colonization plans, and two turns back to back that had precisely 10 turn campaigns. Unlike civ3, it's easy to see 10 turns in advance precisely how many turns it will be until you attack a given star, AND the battle for the 'city' takes one turn, succeed or fail. You may re-try, but the units come in waves rather than sending a few knights ahead then trickling in reinforcements. (Well, good players will have mini-waves, but don't feel compelled to wait until there is a single SOD with everything you plan to use before attacking)

The need to commit far-away troops early sets the exact turn of an invasion. In this last turn, my furthest troops to send were exactly 10 turns away. In a solo game I would not have used reserves to get the ships ready on time. It was a small amount, but it made the difference between an invasion in 10 vs an invasion in 11. Note that if it was going to be 12 or 15, I would cheerfully setup the next player, but so close to 10 I didn't want to have things go south on Jabah's turn 1 since, unlike Civ3, those troops are *committed*, the next leader can do NOTHING to break off the attack. It's like a giant "go-to" that includes the first round of attacks with it! It's a double edged sword really, the hard part is that you really have to trust your teammates (and if you follow a n00b like me, eep!), and the good part is... you really have to trust your teammates! The limited number of design slots calls for coordination. And while you can 'veto' the build queue so to speak, you can't re-call ships in flight (til a later tech) and you can't wildly adjust the research/lux sliders :P

So three questions -
1) Any thoughts on how the go-to nature of invasions will impact a succession game, or how it should impact a player's turn?
2) How are you guys feeling about the turn length of 10 turns? (It's not bad, I think, and if it seems slow now, that's good, as it will balance the fact it seems long later)
3) How hard is the limit? I'm taking it as a hard 10, is that correct (tis the host's call, Sirian in this case)

Charis

Justus II
Apr 15, 2004, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by Charis
While I would like to say "yah! That's what I planned!" I in fact did not toggle the missile button off. I've seen mention of that but don't have a good understanding of bombs/missiles.

- If you don't hit the toggle, how do you fire missiles or bombs?
- If you do hit the toggle, how do you fire missiles or bombs?
I only see a green cursor on the target and no real choice about what I'm firing. If anyone has more detailed comments or a link on missiles, bombs, the missile toggle button, streaming, or other space combat tips, I would just love to hear them or get a link! :hammer:



I don't have a good link, but I'll do my best to answer your questions. By default, in combat your ship is set to fire your weapons all at once, at whatever you have targeted with the cursor. They will get hit with everything on that ship (really, stack of ships, but during combat it is treated as one), with a few (important) restrictions. First, the weapons are fired by banks. When you design a ship, you can add up to 4 banks of weapons, with all weapons of a given bank being the same type. With smaller designs, normally that means each type gets it's own bank or slot. In combat, the game will fire each bank, in order, at the targetted ship, if that weapon can be used against that target. It then proceeds to the next bank and fires against the target. That's why sometimes you will see the ship fire multiple times. If those weapons cannot hit that target (due to range or type, like bombs vs. ships) they will not fire, and will 'wait' if there is another valid target in range for that weapon type.

This is where the bomb 'trick' comes in. If you have a bomb on board, AND there is a planet in that system (good point Bam-Bam, I forgot to mention that), AND you have movement remaining, the game will treat that as an automatic 'wait' after you have fired, so that you can then move to the planet and use the bombs. Whether you actually could reach the planet with your remaining movement is irrelevant, just that you have some movement remaining. This allows for the dart in-fire-dart out tactics. Even if you have used all your movement, if you ARE adjacent to the planet, you will get the opportunity to fire your normal weapons at another target, and it will still wait for you to target the planet with bombs.

A missile can give you a similar effect, by making use of the MISSILE toggle switch. By default, missles are "on", and when you target someone, you fire all your beam weapons as well as launching missiles at them. However, the toggle allows you to target the missiles at another target (such as bases) while firing at ships. When you hit the MISSILE button, you disable missiles. When you fire, all beam-type weapons will fire at the target, but then you will be in "wait" status, and can re-enable the missiles to target someone else. You can also use this pause to take advantage of your remaining movement.

How do the banks play into all this? The other important restriction is that normally, all fire is directed at a single target, and any damage beyond what is required to destroy it is wasted. However, it fires one bank at a time, and if the firepower of one bank completely destroys the target (the whole stack), then you will be given the opportunity to choose another target for your remaining weapon banks, to include using any remaining movement. On smaller ships, it's not as big of a deal, as you have few weapons to divide across banks, but as you get larger ships, and have multiple weapons of the same type, it is sometimes useful to divide them into 2 or more banks. For example, if we had a ship with 8 Gatlings, it might be better to put 4 Gatlings in the first bank (slot), then select 4 Gatlings for the second bank, then maybe a small missile or bomb if there is room. This way, if we are able to finish off a crippled enemy with only a few shots, we will only waste the fire from the first bank, and can then move and target someone else with our remaining firepower. It's not a game-breaker, but it comes in handy sometimes.

There is a similar effect with weapons of different ranges as well, if you have mostly Heavy lasers (range 2) for example, and a bank of range 1 Lasers, you can fire at one target at range 2, them move, since you haven't fired the Range 1 lasers yet, and target someone else.

Well, I hope that answers the questions, without causing even more confusion, it just shows there are some more intricacies to ship design if you want them! ;)

Sirian
Apr 15, 2004, 11:36 AM
Bravo, Charis Ursan! :jump: That was superbly executed. [party] :band:

I really don't have much to say. Lil birdie is off and flying. Go birdie go! Whee! Told you it would be fun. :p Now to attend to the rest of our nest.

The propulsion vs computer choice on the espionage was a bona fide choice to be made, not a no brainer, and I have no problem with the choice you chose. You correctly identified the immediate benefit to our war effort and chose the most valuable option to that end. The computer choice would have been valid also, helping our espionage significantly (improving odds of further theft and gaining advances in our weakest field).

We're past the point at which it would be crippling to learn Robotics III. It would slow our poor worlds and our latest colonies, but our core are all maxed out on factories, so the total net effect would balance. We are, in fact, researching Robotics III ourselves, and we do have Industrial Tech 8 which helps significantly.

Espionage DOES offer some major rewards. I tend to play a bit looser with it on lower difficulty because I fear the consequences of ticking off these AI's a bit less. :p On their best day, they're not going to rise to the level of that ruthless bastid from Kitten Kaboodle who brushed me off, saying, "Yes, the young of the Meklar also throw tantrums," when I protested his smashing half my empire's core with an iron fist. :lol:

Your HOMM combat experience is indeed an asset. You fully understand the battlefield tactics, the group dynamics, the initiative system, the range effects, etc. (Note another reason I thought you would get up to speed fairly quickly. This game is not hard to learn. Mastering it takes a bit more. But you already understood the combat engine). No heroes, of course, but that's a GOOD thing, IMHO. Strategy turns on your units, which you get to customize, rather than on your heroes, which in HOMM is all that you get to customize. Researching through a tech tree that increases performance options for designing ships is a gameplay element I prefer over the "experience" system for heroes, and the choices of which spells to buy. Note that HOMM has some variability to spell availability, though, which is somewhat akin to variable tech trees in MOO.

The one question I have is, did you redesign the LR Colony with a warp two engine? If not... :smoke:

I believe at one point there, all our existing colony ships had arrived and settled, so a chance to scrap that design and replace with the faster variety. If you did that, bravo!


Anyhow, you've significantly exceeded my expectations. You made a superbly coordinated multisystem assault, adapting both the gropo forces and the naval forces in effective ways. You've cleaned their clocks in the space combat, took no losses, and established clear naval dominance in orbit over Jinga, giving us an almost certain opportunity to secure that planet and establish it as our forward base. I hope that was as much fun for you as it was for all of us to read!

It will be interesting to learn where Team Two stands at a similar point in their game. Zed might surprise me, or someone else on the team might make an aggressive move, but I would anticipate that if Zed is leading the planning, that aggression would wait for "tech level 12 to 15" where he reports usually moving for the first time to an aggressive stance.

The chief danger of spying too much is ticking off too many rivals at one time. The game can be lost on the vote if everybody hates you. (Final War is an option if playing below your skill level, but not much of one if playing AT your skill level. Sort of like Always War in how it pumps up the challenge factor).

The size 51 planet at Jinga is actually a size 45 with 6 units of terraforming improvement in place by the Alkari. If we learn +10, only +4 more would be available at Jinga, etc. That is, we can benefit from levels of terraforming another race has enacted, but we cannot build on it unless we have sufficient tech to do so.

As for which designs to scrap if we need more room, that choice should be made at the time, based on position of existing ships, numbers, and threat levels. Killing the Scout 2 ships now could be very bad, giving the Silicoids, who are currently blocked, free access to several worlds on our southern border, including a rich radiated. Obviously, we don't want to scrap anything holding the line at Jinga. Ships should be built with a specific mission in mind. If we've got enough to hold at Jinga, and enough to deter down at Xudax, then perhaps we should focus on butter and books, rather than guns, for the next period. The Alkari probably DO have bases stood up on the next world in their chain, and none of our forces are strong enough to deal with that, right now. We're more geared for brush wars.

In fact, at this point, making peace with the Alkari might not be the worst idea. We've achieved our objective. Or maybe wait for the incoming Alkari ships to show up, get tagged, and THEN try to make peace. Or we can stay at war and let them come calling for peace, which would more likely hold up for a longer term.


As for espionage...

Since we can already penetrate to their high level techs, more spending is probably not called for. The number of spies we have currently is NOT based on the funding level. Instead, funding pays for spy networks, with each additional network costing more. But the enemy is always trying to find and eliminate spies, and it will do so with success from time to time. As soon as a spy is wiped out, our "current" total drops and so does the price to "add a spy to the current total". So the funding level tends to determine the maximum number, as it sets how quickly lost spy networks are replaced. It also increases likelihood of funding more networks before the next "security sweep" where the AI spends heavily for one turn on getting rid of any spies. AI security sweeps tend to happen at intervals, with your best hope for spying success coming when you've built up several spies, right before a sweep will hit. But then, there is ALWAYS the chance that each spy could roll unlucky and be found, interrogated, and broken, revealing all other spies and "cleaning house". So sometimes you end up working against yourself to spend too much on spying. More is not always better.

I've got a high level of spending already in place. Note that we're bringing in stolen tech faster than you see in my various spot reports from Impossible games. Most of those have about 4% spending split between all parties, and have often seen me doing no spying at all because there's not enough reward on the table to justify the risks.

Since we're already at war with the Alkari and do not currently fear them in any capacity, continuing to try to leech off them at the current rate might be a good plan. They still have plenty we could grab of use, especially another computer tech and a terraforming, for which we're hurting.


All hail Charis Ursan, vice marshall and marines champion. :hammer: [plasma]

A holiday is called in honor of his successful campaign at Jinga.


- Sirian

Sirian
Apr 15, 2004, 11:42 AM
As far as turn length, yeah, a firm 10 turns for this game. Other games could be run with softer limits, but with the purpose of this game being to explore and learn, as much as to win, passing off to a teammate and setting up a teammate rather than running overtime to "finish it yourself" seem more appropriate.

Curious players can go back, after the fact, when the playing is done, and play out or experiment with different choices, or play parts for themselves that they only got to spectate during the SG.


- Sirian

Charis
Apr 15, 2004, 01:22 PM
Grazi for the kind words! :p

I was glad to see the good tip:

The one question I have is, did you redesign the LR Colony with a warp two engine? If not... :smoke:

Phew, it's really Sirian, not an imposter! Oddly, it didn't even occur to me to do so. Tunnel vision - I saw the warp 2 as needed for the military but had in my mind pre-programmed my task with the colony ships, and didn't redesign. :wallbash: One will reach its target very soon but the other... it's a good 10-11 turns off.

In fact, given the time involved in the trip and the maintainance cost, we would possibly be better off by letting the very close one land and then immediately scrap the LR Colony ship. We would get back 1/2 the cost, build a redesigned new one in a few turns, and still beat the original one to the far away star.

Definitely let the piddly incoming Alkari enter Jinga space and get blasted first, but after that taking peace and pushing infrastructure would probably be a very good path to take. We'll get to see a bit of Jabah's preferences and aggressiveness in how this decision gets made.

And yes, that turn was truly a blast to play! :hammer:
I'm glad you pushed on the birdie, I would never have chosen to fly so soon otherwise,
Charis

Sirian
Apr 15, 2004, 02:23 PM
Phew, it's really Sirian, not an imposter!

:lol: :rotfl: :lol:


we would possibly be better off by letting the very close one land and then immediately scrap the LR Colony ship.

No. We only get back a quarter of the value. That's kinda sort LIKE getting back half the value and socking it away into reserve, since putting money into reserve costs money itself. For every two spent, one appears in reserve. If you add that up and then use the money for strategic purposes, it may have extra value. so that it's like getting back up to half the ship value. But to turn it right around and apply to another colony ship... No. In that case, there's no benefit to having socked it into reserve and we'd only see the actual "four spent, one put back into play" effect.

No, don't scrap those ships! Just put up with the delay. There are some unhappy ursines onboard, wondering how their "brand new colony ship" is packing 2360's engine technology [pimp] but nobody's going to know about their upset for years to come, because we don't happen to have hyperspace communications. :p

It's not a big deal. One nit out of a whole round where Charis made choice after choice and strung together a series of creative moves and achieved a simply smashing :hammer: military success... Still an A+ performance.


Definitely let the piddly incoming Alkari enter Jinga space and get blasted first

That's the spirit! :whipped:


- Sirian

Justus II
Apr 15, 2004, 04:51 PM
Regarding the ship-scrapping, I would recommend scrapping the Sentinel. We only have 2, and they are at Xudax, which already has 7 Laser-1s for defense. That slot would then be free for some new ships. I don't see any other worlds worth colonizing right away, so I wouldn't worry about Colony-2's, but I would build some Scout-2's/Fast Scouts to replace our warp 1 versions. There are plenty of systems that could still be scouted to the S and NW, and it's always a good idea to keep pushing out and expanding our knowledge base. Our current scouts could remain where they are as blockers, or be scrapped once they are replaced by Laser-2's or something else. Also, any of our colonies that have bases stood up no longer need a scout to chase off enemy scouts, as a base will prevent them from remaining in orbit and scanning the planet.

Jabah
Apr 15, 2004, 05:41 PM
Sorry for the quite unfriendly report but between finishing work late and packing for going away for a 3 days weekend, I did my best to play but not to right...


Here we go...



Pre-turn

Have to do a little scout dance as the 2 most 'southern' systems are within range and I can't find references to those being scouted. There seems to be a terran system with no colony in the NW, send a (spare) scout to check and blocade if ever it is.

LR colony set to the NE Jungle Bootis in 8t at warp1 speed :lol:

Diplo check, we want either Computer or Planet tech from the Alkaris, since they have 2 'extra' in each while they only have old tech (construction) or no tech in other field.
Try an audience with Silic. but no effect.

Check Tech
Planetology is already at 16%, reduce it to increas weapon (ion should be much better than laser). Reduce a little bit Propulsion (stabilizer) for Construction (durraloy) to try to have them more or less 'at the same time'
We will have several nice tech to boost our fleet (armor, stabilizer, ion...) but we will need the 3 before designing our new warship (or an emergency!).

Back to our empire.

For fleet building, no ship are now really optimum, Gatling are speed1 and Laser2 have a bomb instead of better shield (and are small). The other have speed1 and 0shield.
Speed might be more important with our long border, so Laser2 is the one we will manufacture.
---> in fact the three ship building planets are set to research to speed the new design.

Press enter

IT Alkaris attack Jinga with 1 warbird + 1skyhawk -> destroyed with no casualty.


2381 (1) nothing

IT We get Tundra colony, get the choice between Inferno and Clean5, I hate the fact that you have to relie on your memory regarding the surrounding system. Checking the forum, there seems to be at least 1 inferno around but I decide for the cleaning tech that will be usefull on all our planet.
(checking after there was a inferno size40 and a toxic size20 to gain)

2382 (2) There is a 'falcon' coming at us...
send the 2nd LR colony from Trax to Kystron

IT nothing, the falcon is going further (at speed 2 at least)

2383 (3) nothing

IT Discover the Duralloy, only choice, reduce waste60%

2384 (4) 1spy hiding in the Silic, they have some nice tech : Shield3, Range6, Rocket5

IT A spy in Alkari manages a small steal (planet only choice) : Terraform+10, nice anyway
Colonise the UPoor Arid size 65 Klystron next to Jinga.

2385 (5) Set all decent planet (full grown) to Terraform in 1t or max

IT nothing

2386 (6) Regrow the industry in terraformed planet, send a few colonist to new colony (forget last turn).
The falcon reappears heading toward Xudax and its 7 laser1 waiting.

IT Discover Ion Cannon, we have a choice between 4 techs: anti-missile, Ion rifle, Mass Driver and Merculite. We go for the Missile as our base are not very frightening now.
Scout explore hostile toundra in the far south.

2387 (7) The falcon went over Xumax an continue toward the toxic or radiated system further ?

IT in the NW our scout reach Rotan and this is a Sakkra Colony now (terran poor), no base but a 'spectre' defending -> retreat
The 'falcon' arrived at Tauri - toxic hostile s20 - retreat our scout, but I forget that we had 2 'sentinel' as well. Combat Falcon has a tactical move of 1 only, 1 missile (2 missed) and heavy laser(s), go for contact and we manage to win without loss.
Discover Inertiel Stabilisator, range7 only available
Colonise Bootis, Jungle 80 in the NE corner.
Scout another Rich Inferno in the SE corner.

2388 (8) Jinga gonna be hot next turn, 4colonies, 14 falcon and 42 sparrow arriving, we have 1 base, 2 gatling and 4 laser2 there.
Time to build a new warship, scratch the colony design and let me introduce 'Air Superiority 2', top of techno (well except antimissile), but a little pricey.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AirSupIon2.png

Wish I had another spot to do a smaller version...

IT Attack at Jinga ... Scanner reveals
Colony : 3Hv Laser
Falcon : 1 nuclear Msl, 1Hv Laser, shield1
Sparrow : 1 laser
Lose the fleet killing all the sparrow and 1 falcon (shield+bird defence = laser is almost useless)
base is taking between 1and3 per turn while sending a missile to the falcons (or Colony later as the falcon seems to avoid them too easily), tense...
It is a draw while the base is at 11/75 and manage to kill a great total of 2falcon, bird+shield= trouble


2389 (9) the bird are retreating... and we have a empty spot for medium ship (in fact 2)
choice for 'Ion2' is the same but medium with only 2 normal Ion+stabiliser or 3 normal Ion, I choose the first but can be veto (no buiolding yet as 2 techs are coming that might decrease price)

IT
Discover Robotic3 choice between Jammer 2or 3 and Computer 3or4 -> Comp4 (Comp3, cheaper might have been better as we still are on Comp1?)
and Perso Shiel, choice between Shield4 or planet Shield5 -> planet5 (for base)
Meet Psilion in the SW

2390 (10) Trade max (325Bc) with Psilion, they have some usefull tech to change (Comp2, drive3 and rocket5 to name the best) but will let the next leader and the council decide.



Notes for next leader.
- I have done nothing on the 10th turn, factories need to be refitted (apparently) so we have to decide between that and ship building
- The alkaris rule the sky (for now) but they don't know how to land and break a base in time. Hope they don't know how to fight on the ground.
- trade with Psilion might be good for info they want Factory3 for drive3 and Tundra (or other old tech) for Comp2), not sure about giving factory but our ship could have a better computer
- not completely sure I choose the right tech every time...

- I am away for 3 days, but will read all the comments when back.

Jabah

The SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2390.zip)

Sirian
Apr 15, 2004, 07:30 PM
- not completely sure I choose the right tech every time...

No, that was great. The weapon tech choice is particularly important. We just got a new gun (and already spent two projects on beam weapons) so the mass driver would not have been good. We already have Hand Laser so Ion Rifle not a major boost. The anti-missile rockets are space hogs and useful chiefly for going full-bore ruthless on early planetary assaults, into the teeth of enemy bases -- not something I can remember ever deciding to do as an optimal choice, but only "to see what happens". Meanwhile we haven't had a missile upgrade, and jumping from 4 dmg per shot to 10, especially considering enemy shields, will be very important.

Good thing Charis stood up a missile base at Jinga! That saved the day, and apparently, also needed the help of the fleet that Jabah used. Closer call than we'd have liked, but nevertheless a victory. Draws go to the defender, as attackers are forced out.


Everything else sounds good, too. DO NOT trade away robotics controls, though. Or reduced waste, or other economic techs. Unless you're sure you're getting a stellar value that is worth more to us than we give out.

I'm glad we stole a terraforming tech. We're getting our value out of those spies!


One important issue with that ship design with the ion cannons. It's a fine design in every way except one: lacking a battle scanner. Against the Alkari IN PARTICULAR, every level of attack rating is precious. Since we're still stuck on Mark I for the moment, pending theft, research or other acquisition, that extra level available with a scanner is priceless. Should have left off a gun, even two, to add a scanner. More damage would be done to the Alkari by doing so. And as their propulsion tech climbs, well, you get the idea.

Please make sure any new designs max our attack rating. Probably best to stick with large class ships for that reason. Interesting that the Alkari came back with small ships, and that our missile base was ineffective in shooting them down quickly.

We should prioritize factory construction in the core. We've got to refit existing factories plus build new ones at a higher price, so it will actually more than double the cost it took to build 200, to get to 300. (200 @ 1x = 200x a normal factory price. 300 @ 1.5x = 450x a normal factory price, thus going from 200 to 450 is more than doubling the total cost). However it's worth it anyway, so stick with it.

We may want to go "priority research" (half our budget) into Battle Computer Mark IV when the factories level off. Remember to keep a few ticks (at least) in research so existing progress does not decay. I would also prioritize bases on the frontier. No use having more factories if the Alkari retake the system!

Also a nice job on getting the terraforming boost handled. That has surely already helped us significantly. Perhaps now that we beat back the Alkari fleet (the real one), we should offer peace?

Oh, and maybe grab the tundra planet?


Justus, you're up. Lead us through interesting times. :)


- Sirian

Justus II
Apr 15, 2004, 08:09 PM
Got it, I was actually looking over the save, then came back here to see Sirian's post. I'm definitely in favor of taking an "Operational Pause" and seeing if we can get peace from the Alkari to buy time for a major factory retooling. In the long run we will come out well ahead, and I see very little short-term to gain from continuing the war, we have achieved our limited objectives. I would be content with building some bases, probably a newer warp-2 scout, and see if we can get a new Battle computer at least before building more ships.

On the tech front, I think the trade for computer Mk II is worth it, giving up Tundra won't kill us, especially if we can quickly get a Colony 2 Tundra ship headed south before they can get there (I think we can). I don't think I've ever seen the AI build faster than warp 1 colony ships. Whereas Mark II fills a critical gap if one of our neighbors isn't kind enough to wait for us to get Mark IV. I definitely agree with Sirian about Robotics, though, the last thing we want is to accelerate the Psilon's growth curve. :eek:

Regarding the costs of the Robotics upgrade. I made a post over at Realms Beyond regarding my "theory" of how the costs are calculated, but was only partially right. My original post is here (http://www.lurkerlounge.com/realmsbeyond/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=40&p=541&linear=0) , and my new thread with conclusions is Here. (http://www.lurkerlounge.com/realmsbeyond/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=53&)

Basically, Sirian is right in that Robotics results in an immediate increase in the price of all factories to 1.5*base, and you will also have to pay to refit exisiting factories, but the refit comes due sooner than you think (or at least sooner than I would have thought). In our case, with several colonies at or near max, we will benefit from it, but it does show it can be a real hinderance if gotten too early.

I won't probably get to play until late tonight/early tomorrow morning, I'm on a wierd schedule these past couple weeks, so any suggestions/comments are welcome!

Justus II
Apr 16, 2004, 01:53 PM
My goals for this turn are to focus on retooling our industry to take advantage of our new Robotic Controls technology, while strengthening our defenses and finishing our last bit of expansion, grabbing the tundra in the south. I would also like to upgrade/reorganize our fleet if possible, replacing our slow scouts with fast ones, and designing (and maybe building) a new faster ship to replace our Gatling and Laser1 designs. In order to do all that, I want to avoid distractions from the Alkaris, so I am going to seek peace as well.

Pre-Turn. I start with diplomacy, to see if we can get our peace. Not only will the Alkaris not agree to peace, they remove their ambassador. :( The Psilons are just as impatient. Although Battle Computers II is available, they will only take Robotic Controls III, and when I refuse, they also withdraw their ambassador. Warp 3 drives wasnít even an option. Now that I think about it, if Jabah had already proposed those trades on this turn, then said ďforget itĒ we would have already exhausted their patience, and so had a negative modifier to any dealings. One thing about MOO diplomacy, unlike Civ3, there IS a cost to Ďcomparison shoppingí. If you open an audience with a leader, it automatically increments their Ďpatience modifierí, and once it gets too high, they will withdraw the ambassador. Similarly, every agreement/treaty/trade you propose, even if not accepted, increases the negative modifier toward that agreement, meaning asking repeatedly for something will get increasingly worse odds. So itís always a good idea to do your homework before an audience (read your report on their techs and alliances, know what techs you have or are working on, etc) so you can make the deal while you are there, without backing out to check on something. For SGs, it means itís more difficult to have discussion about possible trades, because the act of checking the possibilities lowers your chances of actually making the deal, at least temporarily. Probably better off to avoid diplomacy on the last turn, so the next leader has a clean slate with no negative modifiers. :)

Anyway, back to the game. First priority is to design and build a new colony ship for Antarres, the tundra to the south. The LR Colony2T is designed, with reserve tanks, Tundra base, Warp 2 engines, and 2 ion cannons, since it will be going without escort (we donít have any LR ships left). I swap Argus over, which can build it in 3, and set Reloc to Rana. It should complete and move to arrive on my last turn. I also redesign a Warp 2 scout, called Scout 2X to distinguish it from our Scout 2s. I set Trax and Dunatis to build 6 each, for the north and south. Some will be used to cover planets from prying eyes, but I also want to be able to check on our neighbors worlds if we can. Also, several of our planets with scout coverage have bases now and no longer need the scout. I also move a couple Laser1ís from Xudax to cover open hostile worlds, in case we start to see armed colony ships.

On to industrialization. Rather than just setting every planet on blanket refits, I decide to prioritize a little. As mentioned, a few planets delay a turn to crank out our new Scouts and Colony ship. I also postpone Gorra. It is poor, and at the point where it would spend a long time in refit status, without increasing output at all. Instead, I set Gorra up to carry our research burden while the other planets industrialize, and then it can refit later. This allows me to continue research at least over 100rps, which will avoid wasting as much Ďinterestí on existing research investments. Xudax is also not included in the refit program for now, as an ultra-poor it will be slow going. However, it is starting to grow out of the fat part of the growth curve, and hasnít terraformed yet, so I prioritize that first.
I leave research spread evenly, as we arenít putting much more than maintenance in, and I donít want to reduce any of the categories any further than they already are. Once our main worlds start to come back on line, I will prioritize computers. I also shift our spying around, put a couple ticks toward the Psilons to establish a network there.

IBT: Produce 13 Scout 2Xs, swap Trax and Dunatis to factory refits.

2391 (1): We get a report on the Psilons, they are Honorable Technologists, and allied with both the Silicoids and Alkari. They are ahead in tech (surprise!). Just the latest: Battle Computer III, Industrial 7, Shield III, Death Spores, Range 8!/Warp3, Mass Driver, plus more filler techs. No problem. ;) Still wonít talk to us, though.

IBT: Chase a silicoid scout from Primodius.

2392 (2): Nothing interesting.

2393 (3): Our LR Colony 2T completes, and is auto-sped on itís way to Rana. Argus starts the refit process. We can finally talk to the Psilons again, and are able to swing the Battle Computer II for Tundra deal, but his patience is again exhausted. The Silicoids will trade Hyper-V rockets, but want too much, so I pass. Our scout reaches Yarrow, and we can see itís at 46 pop, 38 factories, 2 bases. In orbit are 31 Falcons (medium), 17 Sparrowhawk (Small), and 4 colony ships, this looks like their staging base. Canít stick around here!

2394 (4): The first Vote! We are nominated, as are the Psilons. Voting is as follows:
Psilon (5) themselves, Silicoid (5) Psi, Sakkra (3) Abstain, Darlock (2) Abstain, Alkari (4) Psi, and we (9) abstain, rather than anger the Psilons unnecessarily. Vote total is 28, so we donít quite have enough to block if everyone voted against us. Our scout has arrived at the Psilon world of Esper, which is undefended, it is a Fertile Arid 80, 68 pop, but no bases.

IBT: We get a successful steal from the Alkari! We can choose between Computers, Construction, or Planetology. I know they have cheap and/or obsolete computer (ECM) and Construction (Industrial 9) techs, but we already have the cheaper planetology techs, so it would have to be at least level 8, and I choose that. We are rewarded with Terraforming +20, which was missing from our tree. I say no to the auto-adjust dialog, I prefer to do those myself. Then we get a strange message:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/OSG1_Team1_PsilonWar.jpg
What did we do to deserve this??

2395 (5): I look around, but donít see any Psilon fleets. In fact, our scout is still orbiting defenseless Esper, which would seem to be their closest planet, and canít see anything. (I hope having a scout there wasnít enough to provoke a war, I wouldnít have thought so. Maybe the Alkari asked them to honor their alliance). Try again for a peace deal with the Alkari, but no dice. In fact, the Alkari fleet has left Yarrow, looks like itís headed for Jinga again. Still 4 Colonies, 31 Falcons, and 17 Sparrowhawks. Looks like they will arrive in 4 turns? What can I do in time for that. I swap Ursa and Gion, who were maxed and working on Terraforming, to my newly designed Ion Cruiser 2. Ursa can finish and relocate in time, Gion will probably be a turn late, but I do it anyway, as we need some defenses. I also switch Jinga to building a second base, it should complete just in time. Thereís a spare Laser1 at Klystrom, I send it over. Other planets canít get there in time for this battle, so they focus on factories for the next one. In good news, Gienah is maxed out on factories, and swaps over to terraforming, and is also able to start some research again. Since we are at war, I boost spy spending, trying to get multiple networks vs. the Psilons, and switch them over to espionage, as we KNOW they have some good techs.

2396 (6): After reviewing the planets, Klystrom (poor) does Terraforming before factories, it can be a marine barracks to reinforce or launch attacks from.

2397 (7): Scout Obaca, an Ultra-Poor Silicoid world. Time to send our Colony 2T on to Antarres. I know itís not the best bargain, but I trade the Silicoids Warp 2 engines for Hyper-V rockets, we have to have some firepower for those bases at Jinga. The only other choices they would settle for were all higher-level techs (Duralloy, Robotics, or Terra +20).

IBT: When it rains, it pours! Our spys are successful vs. both the Psilons AND Alkari. Vs. the Psilons, we have a choice of all fields. I know they have techs at various levels, so I donít know what level of penetration for sure, but looking at the chart, I know we have everything in Force Field short of Class III, so I chose that one, and sure enough, we get Class III shields. This will also help our bases, and maybe allow for another redesign. Against the Alkari, our choices are Computers or Construction, which both have older techs, I chose computers, just to help our spying percentage, and get ECM II.

2398 (8): Time to prepare for the big battle, we have our first Ion Cruiser in place. I look at a redesign, but putting the new shields in takes away weapons, Iíll leave it for the next leader to decide on a new design.

IBT: Fourth Battle for Jinga. Heís bringing the fleet, we are relying on our bases and our new cruiser.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/OSG1_Team1_JingaForces.jpg

I send the cruiser to take on the Sparrows first, while the base fires itís missiles at the Falcons. The colony ships have a much higher HP/firepower ratio, so Iíll leave them for last, I want to reduce his firepower as quickly as I can. It takes several rounds to eliminate the Sparrows, and the Ion cruiser takes some damage from the Sparrows and the heavy lasers of the bigger ships. Our Laser1 absorbs the missile salvo from the Falcons, and dies. The bases missiles are gradually taking out about a Falcon per turn, until they back off, and then I target the colony ships. After many rounds of constant pounding, our Ion cruiser is finally destroyed, but the Sparrowhawks are gone, he has lost 8 of the Falcons, and 2 colony ships, and retreats. I probably should have focused everything on the Falcons, as the Sparrowhawks had trouble damaging the cruiser, but at least Jinga holds.

We also chase another Silicoid colony ship from PrimodiusÖbut it doesnít run away! Ruh roh. We have a Laser1, a Scout 2, and a Scout 2X, and he has . . . I donít know, I donít have scanners. Well, Iím not giving up without a fight, bring it on. I have 6 lasers, but only 18hp to his 100, this could get ugly. I approach, and do 10 pts the first round, he fires back and only does 1. Thatís good! The scouts move on him aggressively, for no real reason, he doesnít waste time firing on them. Many of his attacks cause no damage though, he must have left the battle computers at home. ;) Itís still pretty tense, as I have some rounds where I only do 4hp, but at least I am doing something every round, whereas his are hit or miss. Finally I get down to 5hp, but destroy his colony ship! Chalk another one up one for the Da Bears!

2399 (9): Our Scout 2Xís and Lasers are in position to replace all our old scout 2ís on blockade duty, so I scrap the old ones, but leave the money in reserve. We could also scrap the 2 Sentinels, as there are Laser1ís there also, but Iíll leave that for the next leader. Jinga starts on a third base, due in 5.

IBT: Antarres is founded on the tundra to the south. We have another vote, as itís 2399. Results are similar: Psilon (6) Psi, Silicoid (5) Abs, Sakkra (3) Abs, Darlok (2) Abs, Alkari (4) Psi, and we have 10 votes of the 30. Still not quite enough to block, but we are growing. Another Cruiser completes and is enroute to Jinga.

2400 (10): Havenít done much, except to MM planets. Most have completed the +20 terraforming, and refits, and are just filling in factories for the new growth. Ursa and Gion are building Ion Cruisers, with enough going into factories to keep ahead of growth until they re-max. Argus has been working on an Ion also for the southern border. We need to send colonists, and probably some defenses, to Antarres, it may be a reach, but it gives us a base for more exploration. Scouts should be able to push west along the southern boundary now also.

Havenít done much with tech this round, just keeping it steady, as most of the time we were only at around 100-150RPs. We are up higher now, as Gienah is mostly back online, so I will let the next leader reprioritize our research. I havenít done any diplomacy this turn either, mostly because they wonít talk to me anyway. :rolleyes:
I would try to make peace with the Psilons if we get a chance, still havenít seen any ships, but when they do come, they will undoubtedly outclass us, and they are too far away for us to launch an assault on them.

Here be Interesting Times (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/OSG1_Team1_2400.zip)

Isit
Apr 16, 2004, 08:24 PM
I got it. I should have my turns up by tomarrow. :)

Isit
Apr 17, 2004, 12:06 PM
I am a bit short on time this morning so this is going to be a quick and dirty report.


2400: We are in very good shape to start my turn. I think it would still be possible to take another Alkari world if we can field a decent bomber design. Since the Alkari only have nuclear missiles I setup a medium ship with level 3 shields, 3 nuclear bombs and internal stabilizer and the best computer I can fit in. This ship will be almost immune to current Alkari missile bases since they will only do 4 damage each. We will still need a good fleet of escort ships too so I leave our two worlds producing ion battleships for now.

I tweak a couple of other planets but mainly leave things setup as they are. I also update our trade with the Silicoids, doubling it to 250 a turn, and sign a non-aggression pact with them. I increase our espionage level on the Psilons since they have lots of goodies that I want. Of course itís usually damn hard to steal from them so I will reevaluate this at the end of my turn to see if itís worth continuing. I reset our research to focus heavily on force fields. Once we get the first level or planetary shields I will break to do a general defense buildup to get shields and at least one missile base built at all our colonies.

Once we get our colonies built up to that point they are A. Safe from any fleet that cant penetrate our shield level B. Ready to rush build missile bases of a big fleet starts heading in. Of course our frontline colonies will get more then one base.


2401: I order Jinga to start teraforming. The two missile bases we have plus our fleet is enough to protect it. I tweak a couple of more planets.


2402: We grab industrial tech 9 from the Alkari (the only option).


2403: The Silicoids break our non-aggression pact. Looking at the races screen they have allied with the Psilons! If we arenít careful we might end up with 3 races at war with us. The Psilons donít want to make peace ATM and the Silicoid ambassador is gone so there isnít much that I can do at this point.


2404: The Alkari ally with the Psilons as well. I set a few more planets to build ships. In another few turns we should have enough ships to take a shot at an Alkari world.


2405: Tweak ship production and a couple of planets.


2406: Tweaked a planet.


2407: End turn


2408: The Silicoid ambassador lands at our homeworld long enough to declare war and then takes off again. Nothing surprising about this but now we are in a 3-way war. The Psilons are allied with both the Silicoid and the Alkari but so far the Alkari and Silicoid are not allied with each other. I am still not seeing anything that worries me from any of these races. No signs of large fleets or even any attacks. The Psilons are ahead of us in technology but we are ahead of the Silicoid and Alkari.

Of course they probably do have a fleet of doom someplace in the wings but if we can get our shields up in time we should be fairly safe from it.

The Silicoid colony of Proteus is a rich minimal world. Itís right next door to Xudax, which happens to have a small fleet in orbit. Since Proteus doesnít have any missile bases up yet I am going to throw some transports at it from Xudax and move our fleet over. Since itís a rich world it can probably throw up a missile base quickly to assist our outdated fleet in defending it.


2409: There is a Psilon colony ship heading to an inferno world behind our lines. I order one of our ion ships to intercept it at its destination. Cant have them settling behind our lines, especially on worlds that we donít have the tech to invade yet!


2410: Our spies steal battle computers 3 from the Psilons and an unknown spy destroys 5 factories on our homeworld. I think our fleet is large enough to launch an attack. Possible targets are the Alkari or Silicoids to the south. The Alkari are a softer target since they have a weaker missile tech then the Silicoids but the Silicoids are probably more of a threat. Our research in force fields is maturing very quickly and could pop at any time. Once its done we should have enough shielding technology to provide complete protection from the Alkari and Silicoids and partial from the Psilons, depending on whether they bring their new bomb along or not.

I leave the matter of spying to the next leader. We arenít getting great returns from the Psilon net but it might be worth keeping it around of buffing it up since the Psilons have such a nice store of technology.




http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/OSG1_Team1_2410.zip

Sirian
Apr 17, 2004, 01:17 PM
Interesting times, yes indeed. That computer theft from the Psilons should help a bit.

Garath is up. :)


- Sirian

Garath
Apr 18, 2004, 04:04 AM
Got it, but it's 10 in the morning here, and I haven't been to sleep yet. might be a little while before I can actually get the turns up, I'm certainly not playing them now.

Garath

Jabah
Apr 19, 2004, 03:30 AM
quick answers/comments

To Sirian about the Ship design

Yes, I keep forgeting that battle Scanners give attack bonus and therefore are more than a expensive tool for checking the AI's ship weapons/design.

To everyone about Ship design.

Do we want to have only normal Ion instead of Heavy Ion (or mixed).
One one hand (AFAIR) heavy cost (more or less) the double for only 50% more damage, so against no shielded Alkaris they should be better, but against shielded ship (or planet) or if ever some AI manages to get repulsor, the 1 range will be useless.
On a (very) minor point, the Scout2X have the old armor, was it on purpose (since no fighters), the new Duralloy is quite cheap (both in price and space) why not use it.

To Justus II about last turn diplomacy.

Yes, that can be a problem trying to see what an AI has to offer and pass the game. The facts are that we had contact with the Psilions just the turn before turn and I contact them to sign a trade aggrement, so while there, I check the other options. It is probably better to have the trade ASAP, if so either I should have stop the 'discussion' right after to let the next leader decide the tech exchange or do it right now.

To everyone about military plan.

From what I remember from my turns, the Silics colonized (or were going to) the Tundra system just north of Jinga. Since this is very close to home, we should invade that and have the bonus of 'officially' contacting the Sakkras.

Jabah

Garath
Apr 19, 2004, 06:50 AM
Yarrow, the next Alkari world, would be a big stretch outwards, whereas some of the nearby Silicoid worlds would fit much more easily into our empire for reinforcements. Also, if I wait much longer they're likely to get planetary shields, rendering our current bombers basically useless. I launch the fleet at Helos, and also throw a few transports at Incedius, which is too young to have any bases up, and has no local fleet.

I also put a tick or two back into bases at our developed worlds, with no spending at all I don't think they'll even be upgraded. There seem to be a couple of Psilon colony ships also heading into our back lines, so the next cruiser I get is going to go and guard the other planet there. I decide to leave the espionage with the Psilons, we aren't too far down on Computer tech, and there are some nice goodies up for grabs, whereas the others have nothing much.

2411: The invasion fleet at Proteus lands, and shatters the Silicoids with a combat differential of 40, I think. REgardless, we lose 3 of 30 invading troops, they lose all 25 of theirs. It comes with 18 factoreies, and a decent rate of building more. I send a scout out from that fleet to find out what the defenses of nearby Tyr are like.

2412: THe fleet arrives at Helos, the four bases all fire at the Ion Cruisers, and so the bombers get in to the planet easily. NO losses, planet ready for the taking. I send 30 troops from Ultra Poor Klystron, they'll land in 3 turns and should be plenty to take the planet. But I send a few more from Jinga also, to have a few more to build Helos up.

2413: Steal Range 6 from the Silicoids with our 1 tick in the slider, and frame the Psilons. Planetary shields come in, switch to Deflector V, skipping IV. Tyr turns out to be Toxic, so we can't invade it anyway, but I do get in, so we'll have a count of bases now. The range 6 allows us to meet the (Pacifistic, Expansionistic, 2PE) Sakkras, who we get a 125 BC/year trade route with. I also put a single tick in the espionage slider to find out their current tech situation, I'll take it out when that's done. Oh, and the Alkaris come a-calling, and I take the offered peace treaty. Phew! What an interturn! I choose not to put any more spending into the planetary bases, nowhere is in great danger, so they can wait until they come in with normal spending. I put our extra tech spending into Planetology, the cleanup will be useful and I want to get an antidote to the Death Spores that the Silicoids and Psilons have, I've had bad experiences with them in the past.

2414: nothing much. tracking a couple of incoming Silicoid ships, but nothing to worry about. Remeber to take the single tick out of the Alkari espionage slider, no point in antagonising them further.

2415: troops land at both Incedius and Helos, taking both easily, and we get the 18 systems message. We also steal Speed 3, Hyper-V and Death Spores from the ruins of Helos, pretty good that. send a small task force out to Nitzer, which also lacks bases.

At which point my Classic Environment shut down on me, quitting MOO.
And blast it, I have no autosave either, so I'm going to have to start from scratch. I'll try to replicate everything as closely as possible, but I';ve run out of time, so it'll have to be late tonight or tomorrow, I'm afraid. Sorry about that.

Garath

Ozymandous
Apr 19, 2004, 07:33 AM
MOO autosaves during every turn. If you hit "continue" on the main screen you should go back, at most, to the beginning of the previous turn but I doubt you'd go even that far back.

Sirian
Apr 19, 2004, 07:36 AM
At which point my Classic Environment shut down on me, quitting MOO.

Classic Environment? A Mac-specific issue?

I'm surprised about the autosave. My game seems to autosave each turn, or perhaps two at most. If your version does not autosave, I suggest using F10 to force a save each turn before pressing Next Turn. Uh... call it "manual autosave". :lol:

We await your results.


- Sirian

Charis
Apr 19, 2004, 09:15 AM
Quite an interesting set of turns! I hope they 'count' :(
Just hitting 'continue' should do it, as far as snagging the autosave, which is kept under SAVE7.GAM in the moo folder.

On the subject of saves... do you guys NOT regularly save your work??? :confused: Whether in gaming or research paper or coding for a client, there's no substitute for saving your work often, AND for backing things up on a regular basis. Please don't wait until your hard drive fails and you lose absolutely everything you have (at least the 1's and 0's on that machine)

I couldn't conceive of not saving every turn, and if there's a lot of action, I sometimes save several times per turn. Don't be burned guys, make regular 'saving' a habit in all aspect of your computer usage :hammer:

Charis

Garath
Apr 19, 2004, 01:40 PM
Hmmm.

Having got back to the game, I discover that while I can't find what should be an autosave (the Mac version doesn't have the same naming system, I can have as many saves as I want with whatever names I want), the original file that I started from is now in 2415. It seems to have autosaved over the old game. With regard to saving, usually I save quite regularly, but it must have been that absorbing that I didn't. Anyway, nothing lost, so here we go:

2415: Interestingly, I can replicate the crash. It seems to come up when attempting to enter the ship design window. So I won't be looking to see if we have enough miniaturisation to make it worth designing something to use the Warp 3 Engines that we got. Fortunately I don't think it's *that* urgent, so I'll leave it for Sirian and try to make sure I have it fixed by next time.

2416: scout at Exis discovers 1 missile base, and we drive off a Psilon colony ship from the Inferno world behind the lines. I send half the task force to check out Exis, but I can't send any troops yet, and indeed it might be hostile anyway. I realise Nitzer is Tundra and without bases, so I send a small task force to take that out as well.

2417: not a whole lot

2418: discover 1 base at Darrian also, and none at the Psilon world of Phantos. Take out the 1 base at Exis and send in the troops to land in 3 turns. Gorra maxes factories, left on tech since the Psilons are somewhat ahead.

2419: troops arrive at Nitzer, take it fairly easily. only 10 of 20 left, though. For your information Sirian, we are currently managing about a 4:1 kill ratio against the Silicoid At least the transports have finally sped up with the Sub-Light Drives now.

2420: Blasted research in Planetology has still not come in, after maturing for most of my turn. That leaves you with 3 different fields almost done. I would dare to suggest that going back to some more priority in computers might be a good thing, the Psilons are pulling ahead with Factory Controls IV. You also have an invasion about to land on Exis this next turn. The fleet has been broken up a bit more as I took more worlds, but since I haven't seen the slightest sign of the vaunted Silicoid fleet (the Status claims they have a pretty decent one) that shouldn't be a problem. They have 16 or so large ships in a chain going to their most recent Northern colony, but they're travelling at Warp 1, so they shouldn't be an issue for us for some time. You'll probably want to take a look at Ship Design too, I haven't been able to do that.

Comments and Criticism Welcome.

Here's the save (I hope):

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/MOOSG1-team1-2420.GAM.zip

Enjoy, Garath

Sirian
Apr 19, 2004, 11:17 PM
I've got it. I played. I'll report tomorrow.

Two words: :hammer: :lol:

- Sirian

Sirian
Apr 20, 2004, 07:09 PM
IT 2420AD: Our Ion warship is packing obsolete engines and other outdated technology. I call a halt to ship production. I'll design a new ship later in the round, after ripening research hits. In the mean time, I would feel better with more static defenses. We're lounging around in a few cases, and in others focusing on shipbuilding. Except in true back line systems, I increase defense spending. In some cases, I shift everything to defense, get those shields built quickly, get a few more bases built, freeing next player to move more aggressively on offense, research or anything besides homeland security. I'm the sort who says, "We learned a new planetary shield? Build it yesterday, on the double."

Although I look everything over, and I've read the preceding reports with some care, I don't have the "feel" for momentum and where our opponents stand. Other than the strategic shift, on the economic front, I pretty much don't touch anything. An attack at Exis will commence.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2420ad.jpg

Garath said we're losing about 1 to 4. We lose 12, take out 40. Good eye, Garath! That kind of info could be very valuable to pass on during an SG.

No techs grabbed. (Factories need to be measured in hundreds, not dozens, to be assured of finding loot, but then, if you wait for factories to mature, bases come with them, so forget the no-brainers, they don't exist).


2421AD: Our forward position on the Alkari front is weak.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2421ad.jpg

We are not currently at war with the Alkari, or that site would be toast. Note to Charis, this is a Kitten Kaboodle situation. We must stand up defenses before the next hot war or we could lose our gains here. The defenses here (and some other sites) will have to come on your watch, as the economics are just too weak to start now.

Meanwhile, I will stand up defenses at our new planets on the Silicoid front. The rich planet and the large planet at Helos will be secured on my watch. Others, I can only "move toward" securing. Our fleet is losing steam and now stretching to cover what we've taken. I'd like to consolidate our gains, rather than pull a "Civ3 AI" and press ever onward until we run out of gas.

I do see one important target for this round, though. Esper. That's the forward Psilon position, and I note no bases there, now that we have Exis in scanning range. If I press our frontier to its max, I can round up about 100 troops to deliver at Esper. The order is given.

Pound some dirt. Boots on the ground. Knock some heads. Mix it up. :hammer:

TARGET ACQUIRED. PSILONS HO. :sniper:

Let's rock-n-roll! [plasma]

Sirian
Apr 20, 2004, 07:29 PM
What an excellent SG team, this is. Buncha really nice guys. They got together and have delivered up a Psilon target for me on a silver platter. Aw shucks, fellas. I didn't know you cared so much! :lol:

Saving the first Psilon pounding for me?!? :thanx:

Lock and load. :shotgun:


2422AD: Ever concerned about our environment (and more importantly, our bottom line, because pollution is bad for business) we implement new cleanup technologies.

Our scientists are directed to look further into controlling hostile environments. (Those Silicoids can't hide forever!)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2422ad.jpg

Soil Enrichment would be good, but controlling any environment not only gains us access to a pack of idle planets, but also the wartime application of being able to invade and take over hostile worlds, too. Plus we're still parked at Tundra? Not good.

Terraforming, we might steal from the Alkari. In fact, I order a change in our espionage emphasis, to pursue the few techs the Alkaris have that we want.

I check techs for the Psilons and Alkari. Psilons have Battle Computer IV which is ripening, so we don't want to steal that. I would go for construction tech, it looks like, on a full penetration. Alkaris have one propulsion tech and two planetology that we lack.


2423AD: We penetrate the Alkari! Should I grab a planetology tech or get that Range 8 tech they're holding? Tough choice. The bastids sure are good at propulsion research, aren't they? I decide to go for that while we're here.

We steal... Range 7 ?!? Uh...

OOPS. I confused the Alkari with the Psilon. The Psilon are the ones that know Range 8. I've just stolen a tech we were almost through researching!

:smoke: [pimp] :smoke:

Uh... sorry guys. My bad. I plead "hazards of SG play". Too many techs in play for me to keep track, apparently. Strategic malfunction. SILVER LINING: Um... On the up side, I've provided an example of how easy it is to blow an espionage opportunity. You really have to be on top of the current tech situation across all opponents to maximize espionage results. My first gambit failed, and now this. Uh... "Do as I say, not as I do!" :lol: :lol:

Now that we have Range 7, we are brought into contact with the Darloks, the last of our neighbors.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2423ad.jpg

Filthy Bulrathis? Big talk for a three planet empire.

Sirian
Apr 20, 2004, 07:52 PM
2424AD: Our forces converge on Esper.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2424ad.jpg

Klystron (u-poor) sent all it could, and is being allowed to regrow naturally. Jinga sent all it could and is now spending max on Eco to regrow (plus I may send some from Klystron). Helos sent a lot, but you can see incoming replacements from the eastern u-poor at Xudax. Exis sent a few. I also sent all ships in the region except one ion to guard exis vs feeble Silicoid retaliation.

By the way, here's a peek at the stats now that all players are in contact.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2424ad-a.jpg

The Darloks are behind even 2PE Sakkra in population. Now that's sad.

Hmm... Date = ##24? Election year! That graph LOOKS like we're in the clear (over 1/3 total pop) but my eye could be telling me wrongly. Let's get some insurance.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2424ad-b.jpg

If the Sakkras choose wisely, perhaps they will be spared in the coming storm.


TARGET ACQUIRED. PSILONS HO.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2424ad-c.jpg

Mmm, nerds. Grape and strawberry, lime and watermelon. Nerds in all flavors.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2424ad-d.jpg

"I see dead people."

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2424ad-e.jpg

Doing this on Average, where these are but the little cousins of the variety I'm used to facing, ought to mitigate the sweetness of watching those swollen head types blinking out of existence, but you know what? It doesn't. :lol: Git em, Boys! GET THEM.

Yeah. :goodjob:

Brainiacs sleeping with the fishes. :fish:

We're gonna party like it's 2999! :band:

Sirian
Apr 20, 2004, 08:20 PM
OK, now that our feature presentation is over, we have some smaller dramas to present. First up, "They Chose Wisely."

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2424ad-f.jpg

After taking Esper (which counts toward this vote, btw) we're now easily in the clear on avoiding any "untoward incidents" at the high council meetings.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2424ad-g.jpg

2425AD: Oh, by the way, Mark IV's came in recently, and the only choice was to move on to Robotics IV. I'm still kinda-sorta hoping to obtain that from the Psilons. Plus, with nary a glimpse of better scanner tech, I opt to "go back for" Deep Space Scanner. Won't take long. In fact, we're already ripening after two turns.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2425ad.jpg

That weapons project is being stubborn, though. And it's holding up our new ship design. We've completed shields at our core worlds and even some backline worlds, and building bases now. Charis won't have to worry about bases in the core, I'll make sure of that!

Press next turn... Bingo.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2425ad-a.jpg

Uh... darnit. I can't remember what the weapon tech is in the low range. (This is clearly not a deep penetration). The planetology tech is Controlled Dead. That much I know. Fearing accidentally blowing another espionage theft on something like neutron pellet gun or anti-missile rockets (obsolete at this point) I opt for the planetology option.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2425ad-b.jpg

Aw nuts. Disaster strikes us on the Silicoid front.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2425ad-c.jpg

2426AD: When there is an industrial accident, you get one (and only one) opportunity to save the lives of millions of people. GET THEM OUT OF THERE.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2426ad.jpg

Check the new planet size on the planet screen, shown above. Size 50 in this case, while 74m currently live there. Evacuate anybody above that number, and maybe one or two more for good measure, if possible. I send 28m to our point position on the Alkari front, where their needed reinforcements got rerouted to join the Esper assault.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2426ad-a.jpg

Nitzer will receive the refugees. Make sure to spend enough into Eco to clean up the mess immediately.

By the by, Zed-F was right about the accident event. It -IS- buggy. Once Atmospheric Terraforming and Soil Enrichment techs are learned, the planet can be terraformed back to its original value, PLUS the 20m for converting from radiated to normal environment, making the planet's final size larger than before the accident! Nothing to be done about this bug now, though. The accident is a penalty at first, then later becomes an asset. Go figure.

With Xudax now over 100 factories, I swap it to defenses to build a shield and a few bases. Ultra Poor planets are ungodly slow at building defenses. Nevertheless, unless you want to leave them wide open forever (not wise) at some point you have to decide "we have enough factories to build some defenses now" and just do it. I make that move at Xudax. When it gets to, say, 3 to 5 bases, depending on the situation with Silicoids, put it back on its long slog of factory construction.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2426ad-b.jpg

OK, time to press next turn again.

Sirian
Apr 20, 2004, 08:59 PM
We have found Orion.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2426ad-c.jpg

Message received from our scout ship:

"An alien vessel is orbiting this planet. Wow, that thing's bigger than my mother-in-law! ... The bogey is moving toward us. They are powering up some equipment. This could be a first contact situation. ... Incoming transmission from the alien vessel. I'm putting this onscreen."

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2426ad-d.jpg

"Holy Honeycomb! Command, are you seeing--"

Transmission ends.


2427AD: Our weapon research finally breaks through. Urg. Not a stellar list of choices. We could use a new gun upgrade, but instead we can only choose between a bomb the Psilons already have and yet another missile tech. Sometimes when it rains it pours.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2426ad-e.jpg

I opt for the missile tech. Significant jump from Merculite-10 to Stinger-15.

It's finally time to design a new warship. I look around and settle on a typical missile boat. However, Merculites are still a bit slow, so rather than a single 5-rack and lots of goodies, I opt for two 2-racks (with bonus to-hit and bonus speed) and fewer goodies. Goodies include max engine, max maneuverability (defense rating), our best armor, and a Mark III. Should be a viable shock unit, but can't hang in a fight worth spit. Best we can do at the moment. Note, no shields, no scanner, and no stabilizer! This is a hit and run vessel, good for shock strikes or escort, but not for prolonged fighting or defense. Strong initial damage value, but runs out of gas almost immediately. Should retain value for some time, though value against planetary targets runs out against anybody who learns a planetary shield tech.


2428AD: Psilon probe force checks our defenses at Exis. I saw the attack coming and moved some Ions back there. We have three ships to their two. Note, one has death spores.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2428ad.jpg

I target the death spore ship first. Their weapons, computers, and whatever else are doing little damage to us. We're doing significant damage to them. I manage to wipe out the death ship (barely) before it drops any spores.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2428ad-a.jpg

Then mop up the other ship. No losses on our side. These Ion ships are an effective design. They beat any equivalent ship from any opponent, in this era. Nice work. And we have enough, for now, to protect our gains, as there is no sign of an alien SoD. Still a priority (IMO) to stand up shields and bases on our newly acquired planets, though. Plus accumulate an impressive number of missile boats for the next push.

I'll get us started off on the right foot in that regard!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2428ad-b.jpg


2429AD: I would like to cultivate the Sakkra as a friend. Would be nice to have at least one friend in the galaxy, right? Even if they don't have a lot to contribute. Be good practice in terms of diplomacy. I hope.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2429ad.jpg

Giving tech away offers the most benefit to diplomacy, except for bombing the tar out of somebody else's enemy. THAT really gets their attention. A gift is appreciated, too, though. Sometimes it will buy you a "return favor" when they agree to something they would otherwise not have agreed to, to "repay their sense of indebtedness". You can't predict that with certainty, though. The value of the gift is linked to its amount of sway.

Giving away certain techs the AI prizes (especially unique techs like Soil Enrichment and Inertial Stabilizer) can bring major boosts. Too much of this could potentially "buy votes" and swing an election outcome, Civ3-style. I've never maximized this in my own play, so it's one of the items I'm keeping an eye on for the tourney, as an area of potential regulation, if it turns out to be an imbalancing or fun-reducing factor.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2429ad-a.jpg

Meanwhile, this small gift (the Sakkras have learned NO advances at all in computers or construction at this point) doesn't even improve relations a single category, so my goal of being able to sign them to a NAP now falls short. Oh well.

2430AD: Here's the galaxy to end my round.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2430ad.jpg

Militarily, we have reached a winning position. Diplomatically, though, we have no friends yet and could theoretically fall back out of the "safe" range on avoiding Final War if we slack off.

Charis, I set our four westernmost systems to max defense spending on THIS TURN. If you want to go with more factory spending first, no investment into defense has been made yet, so you have flexibility to choose your own priorities. The system in the far south is also in that category.

The system in the far northeast has just maxed out and is about to finish its shield. Should be a good research facility.

I tripled our base count, or more. Our defense costs are now measured in single digits of percentage, rather than fractions of one percent. Other than the worlds that still lack any defenses yet (all recent acquisitions, as you'll see), our defenses should be solid and you are free to fly in any direction that looks good to you.


Vice Marshall Charis Ursan - 2430AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2430ad.zip)

Good luck, soldier. Come home with your shield... or on it. :hammer:


- Sirian

Charis
Apr 21, 2004, 11:43 PM
Much progress indeed! Twas too late a night out tonight, but I hope to get to this tomorrow. Should be an interesting turn.

Charis

PS EDIT - Update! I'm a few turns in, so far so good, and I've been told I have to take my 3 boys (and me) for a haircut. At least I'm on it, more tonight :hammer:

Charis
Apr 24, 2004, 06:07 PM
Pardon the delay, I've had a few nights of expected RL activities, then two more nights
of unexpected ones - all good at least. Anyway, here we go...

Quite an interesting turn for Sirian. A good one, of course, although it comforts me
to see an occasional: "We steal... Range 7 ?!? Uh... OOPS." :lol:
The graphs all look 'right', and I would start to view this as an 'essentially won'
game. Does that mean the engine will recognize it as such soon? I imagine if we wanted
to specifically shift it in that direction, we would get a dogpile on the Psilons just
shortly before the next election in 2449, and be sure we had an attack on them in the
preceeding year, but I'll not assume that route - our next leader will have that option.

In the most recent turns we fended off a Psilon attack on Exis (which in my mind I called
Ember, surely a Freudian slip?!), and designed a new Merculite missile boat (I've never
used such a beast, should be interesting)

I have the choice, coming in, of maxing defense or shifting to max factory on the four
western worlds. The overall direction however, is wipe open, let's take a look.

On the map, the 'shape' of our border with the Silicoids bothers me. They have two systems
which directly impinge in our core lands and which I would prefer to be in our camp, but
with a hot war with the Psilons, and with no friends, taking on a new enemy for worlds
which are radiated and toxic makes no sense, especially when we're still learning to
control radiated. What's that? We *are* at open war with Silicoids? Hmmm... !
(edit note- we must have got some other bypassed useless tech. We do NOT have Con Radiated)

My, we're doing well in tech. Most races are backward, the Alkari are ONLY up in
Planetology with Terra+40 and Control Inferno. The Psilons have: Robotics IV (Comp),
nothing up in Force Fields, Range 8 (Propulsion), ImpTech 7 and Zortium Armor (Constr),
Control Toxic and Soil Enrichment (Planetology), and Fusion Bombs, Scatter Pack V and
Anti-Matter bomb (wpns). That's quite a bit, I see why we have 3 spies there. I might
even go to 4 (will be double, iiuc)

Fleet? 9 Scout2X, 16 IonCruiser2, 35 Merculites (again, what do you do with these?),
2 sentinels and 32 bombers (are these to knock out planet defenses, or do bombs work
on ships? My n00biness is shining through here...) Our ion cruiser seems to be our
air superiority ship, bomber for planet, merculites are glass cannons which could be
good if they had cover. We don't have 'every' planet scouted, so may as well keep
around the scouts. There's room for one more design, and from the tech screen I would
say this will be a Stinger ship with Fusion drives. It would be nice to see these techs
come online around the same time, as we wouldn't want to use our last design slot with
just one of those techs. We want all six techs though, so I do not adjust sliders.

The four 'western' cities on defense are: Ember, Exis, Nitzer and Promedius. I'm going
to let the shield complete then swap to factories - without the shield done there is
no way to know how long it's going to take, and no way to know how long to put up a new
base. Spica is undefended and no bases planned, but it's backline.
Klysron seems particularly vulnerable - no ships, no base/shield, not far from front.
Tis much harder for me to 'grok the situation' here than in other games, and so
I have to hope my predecessor left me in good shape and pointed out any must-do's :P

I really do need to find out what the Merc's can do, so I'm going to have to hit the
dirt, get some boots on the ground, and mix it up. But where? After we get the tech to
own them, the two silicoid worlds, but apart from that... Phantos of the Psilons.
It's unexplored, so I'm going to have to remedy that.

2430 - Two ion cruisers and six bombers depart from the safety of Esper with a mission
to scout Phantos. Two cruisers shift from Exis to cover the ones leaving Esper.

Two ions, five bombers, 10 mercs ship out from Jinga to Esper.
12 colonists shift from Klystron to Exis. Spica shifts 35 to Klystron to cover and prep.

IBT - Wow, lots of movement, red ships on the prowl everywhere. Not much else. 14 mercs.

2431 - Bootis completes its class V shield and swaps to pump 300gpt into research,
plus finish two bases within the next 8-10 yrs. The only Psilon ship of note is a
Sun Wing moving towards Phantos. IBT - We meet up at Phantos at the same time!
Our two Ion Cruisers and 9 bombers vs his Sun Fire, with 2 Hvy Ion, 5 Ion, shield 2,
and Death Spores. There's also 4 lil Star Wings with 2 ion cannons, and the planet
has 3 missile bases, 1 beam, lvl 2 shield.

Admiral (Corporal??) Charis does manage to split the defenders, and take out their
cruiser while the bomber slipped into the planet and wailed on it. They did manage to
retreat 2 of their Star Wings.

Then in equally good if not better news, we managed a tech steal off the Alkari.
Planetology was the only choice, and we got Control Radiated (yay!) Even better,
we got to frame Psilon or Silicoids for it. (Psilon chosen) This all happens BEFORE the
scouting of a 'new system'. Phantos is jungle 77 with 93 factories. What I wish I knew is
the impact of planetary bombardment. 77 is a lot to defeat - would bombs prune the
defenders (good) or knock out 'our future factories' (bad) or something in between? I'm
afraid there's just one way to find out, and I pull the 'bomb' trigger. (??!)
Result: 6 mill killed, 31 destroyed. Ok, now I know. If we plan to invade, not best,
if we plan to disrupt, a good call. Let's get some boots on the ground!!!

2432 - I look around and see no Psilon ship that can beat us to Phantos, so I call forth
some gropos. (Conveniently pre-envisioned two turns ago)
Specifically, 46 from Esper to Phantos, due in 2.

I'm confused on research. We just got Control Radiated from our spy, but it doesn't
look like we're researching anything new or have any choice to?
I hit 'C' by accident and do see Psilons' captured 1 spy. Was it this turn? I look
at the race screen and see we have five (!) spies there? Total spending still 6%? Odd.
I look at their techs and see they've picked up both Impr waste +40% and 'Omega bomb'

I look at the Alkari fleet at nearby Yarrow. YOWZA! 6 warhawks, 500 baby fighters,
45 Falcons which look good size, and 28 medium ships. Tis not open war, I think I
would prefer to open up some trade with them and stand down on that front (we don't
need 3) Then again, I've not see them do anything. I'll hold a bit.

No other changes... IBT - We chase off a Psilon colony ship then two baby wings,
then we penetrate Psilon network and have choice of Wpns or Planetology.
It's 50-50 good stuff on Planet, and 66+ good with wpns - I choose the latter and get
Fusion bomb. We decline to further bombard Phantos.

2433 - Jinga shifts 100gpt from defense to research. Espionage situation looks odd.
I hit 'C' and see the Psilons have caught *6* of our spies (1 left), the Silicoids
caught 1 and the Alkara caught 1. Yowza, sounds like a major galactic sweep.
We even caught one Psilon spy. In fact, I kick slider up in counterespionage.

IBT - We beat back a silicoid Mako, then run away a Star Wing on Phantos.
I choose not to bomb, and our 46 gropos arrive, vs 73 on the planet. Good odds!
We win, and have 19 left, about a 2.3 kill ratio. It would have been better but
they have Zortium armor. The planet is ours, with 70ish factories, and a new tech found:
Omega-V bomb (yay!) and Control Toxic.

In worse news, the Alkari say they've had enough and pull their ambassador!

2434 - Esper completes its planetary shield, base due in 2. 'c' reveals Psilons caught
3 of ours (bah) and we caught 1 silicoid.

I send mixed Ion Cruiser/Merc forces to two near Psilon worlds to explore them -
Xendala and Mobas. On the way in, not close yet, is a single large/huge Psilon ship.
Kylstrom shifts 20 colonists to Phantos. Esper sends 21, Exis a dozen. Spica->Kly 12.

IBT - Contact broken with the Darloks. One of our long range scouts finds empty system.
Antarres finishes its shield, swaps to tech.

2435 - The huge Alkari fleet at Yarrow has dropped out of Orbit! Where is it heading?
Jinga? Two Psilon Coraona perhaps headed to Nitzer. A dozen Mercs from Jinga are
dispatched there, and shield construction goes forward as fast as we can.

IBT - A big old Sun Fire comes calling at Phantos, with a colony ship, but our pair
of Ion Cruisers blow them out of the sky. In research, Improved Tech 6 comes in.
Our sole choice is Reduced waste 40. Fleet production is 1 Ion Cruiser, 15 Merc, 2 sent
Xydrax completes its planetary shield.

2436 - Xudax sends 22 troops to Tyr, a Toxic silicoid planet. It will rendevous with
an Ion cruiser. Rama starts to produce a toxic colony ship.

IBT - Expeditionary force arrives at Xendalia, facing just 5 star wing. But... planet
has 3 scatter-pack-V launchers. I think (??) they would chew up our ships and I may
not stick around for this battle :P The Ion Cruiser allows itself to take one hit,
and indeed, it would not survive a second. They kill one wing but must retreat.
Mobos is about the same in planet defenses, and a 200hp ship with 5 scatter pack V's.

Psilon base infiltared. Choice in everything but Force Field. That suggests pretty
deep penetration. Computers will help us keep on doing this, and should finish off
Robotic IV. Although we're researching it, we're not many 'beakers' in.
Indeed, that's what we get, and I'm given a choice of ECM 3 or 5, I pick 5.

The Psilon's come to talk to us. Do they want peace?? (Do *we* want peace*?)
I think with the capture of Phantos I, and outclassed by their planet defenses, I
have no further desires on Psilon planets.

I take peace with the Psilons.

Nitzer, Incedius, Gorra, Exis all finish their shields, good.

2437 - Ok, time for 'core' worlds to make another factory push, now that we can handle
four factories per unit pop with the new Robotics. I do this manually.

I don't know where the Yarrow fleet is headed, but it's halfway there! I have a chat
with the Alkari. No I don't, diplomat is gone. Ok, I'll talk with the Psilons, and
work out a 600gpt trade agreement. IBT - Nothin!

2438 - We're pulling ahead on the graphs, almost double pop of next competitor,
equal in fleet, almost equal in tech, top in production. Next phase we have a
Silicoid invasion of Tyr, and that Alkari fleet bothers me.
IBT - Our Ion Cruiser reaches a 'neutral' world that a Silicoid Mako and Colony
ship get to just now to face our Merc ship. We splat both of them. Next at Tyr,
there is no orbital defense, and we have choice to bomb the 30 pop / 34 factory
planet. We have 20 troops on the way, which should be sufficient, so I don't.
We capture Tyr with 20 left, and start to make use of those factories for defense.

2439 - That Yarrow fleet is past Jinga, and our armada there. They are quite likely
to go for Klystrom. Too bad you can't 'intercept'. If they do take it, they won't
likely hold it, but I don't think I can stop them. 8-\
I stick with a build-up turn, and plan no further invasions. 'Next turn'.

IBT - Indeed, it's Klystron. Our scout cannot defend it, and retreats. They have
508 Pelicans and 28 Sparrowhead smalls, 45 medium falcon, 4 colony ships, 7 warhawks.
Our planet is size 70 with 47 factories, no launchers. They'll never successfully
beat our troops though, and will have to bomb us out of there. They do, and how!
37 mill troops killed, and all 47 factories go poof! Worse... "Your transports trying
to land on Klystron were destroyed" :eek: OH GAH! I had used it as a minor staging
zone for troops. I 'thought' it was ok as it was behind the front lines. The AI
hit a weaker supply line planet instead of a strong point defense at front? Wow! :P
I think that means 'only' 20 colonists - my bad.


2440 - Our toxic colony ship completes, and I send it from Rama to the nearby green star.
ETA is just one turn (after which the design could be scrapped).
Most planets are working hard to finish their 4X factories, when research can go back
to normal, or when we can build a more offensive fleet. Gion for example is just
about done. Force field is due before long techwise, other things show moderate progress.
Hitting 'c' showed Psilons caught 4 of our spies last turn 8-\

Contact with the Darlocks is reestablished. I give them tribute of Improv Tech 9
(they are way backwards) and when I ask for a trade agreement of 50, they tell me
how "Imp Tech 9 has been invaluable to us, how could we refuse?" Ok, nice :P

Our next leader will have to decide if we send our Jinga armada at the Yarrow
fleet. My read would be that we would get annihilated if we tried that. We need
a huge auto-regen ship to crack that nut.

I would send an Ion cruiser and a few small ships to Promodius to dominate the
orbit, and as soon as we learn controlled Radiated, capture it.
The air is thick with Silicoid ships, but I see no killer SODS like the Alkari one.

That'll do it! We lost no ground, I took another Psilon ship, kept up the spying
and snagged several techs, and the only mishap is that Klystron is under pressure.
We're due to colonize a new planet next turn, have good defenses, and are near a
25% increase in factory output compared to 2430. Not superb, but it'll do :hammer:

Sirian
Charis
Jabah <-- UP, and here is The save for 2440 (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2440ad.zip)
Justus II <-- ON DECk
Isit
Garath

Good luck to Jabah...
Charis

Sirian
Apr 24, 2004, 07:12 PM
A productive round. :goodjob: Gains both in the game and especially on the learning curve. :cool:

Some quick comments for now, more details later.

* I think you stole Controlled Inferno from the Alkari. Otherwise we would not still be researching Radiated. (This makes my previous espionage goof even worse, though, because we'd have learned +40 terraforming on your grab, most likely, if I had stolen Inferno tech already. :smoke: Spilt milk, though. Spilt by me, that is, not you. :lol: ).

* Missile boats are the ideal force to use against massive enemy SoDs when you can't win a full engagement. Your boats meet their fleet, you fire off a shot, maybe two, before they can close. You attrit a few ships, then retreat, taking no losses (you hope). Sure, it's evil to hit and run, giving the enemy no fair fight, but this is war, my man. War's not supposed to be fair. :lol: The AI will pull the same tactic if it goes heavy on missile boats, so don't hesitate. Stick-n-move. Rinse, repeat.

* Klystron is now officially a hot potato. They'll wipe it out, on the next turn or two, or stop short and send troops. Either way, all those factories are gone. Forget rebuilding them. We have no way to stand up defenses there. Swap all spending to Eco to grow more people or to Tech to get a few RP out of there. Don't even try to rebuild there unless/until it is firmly in the back lines and nobody can reach it. NOTE: This is what will happen to any planet when a rival has a SoD you can't beat with your ships, during the middle game, and war is on, hot or cold. If they can overcome defenses at any system, they will, and then they'll wipe it out or capture it. This is why I tend to err on the side of building too many bases. Build too many, no big whoop. Build too few, whole systems go spudly on you, lost to you as far as production and defense go. In the worst cases, the AI may even be able to assimilate them against you, adding to their collective, although that won't happen at Poor systems.

* We're not playing for diplo victory. Keep that in mind. Check the scenario parameters, note that conquest is the minimum victory condition. That means we don't stop until we have 2/3rds or more of total galactic population. (That's actually intended, in this case, to extend the game past the "winning position" so we have more time with it to conduct warfare across more tech levels and situations, and get to see more toys in action). It's akin to going for a domination win in Civ3, rather than stopping in the late middle ages when our Cavs have put the smack down and ensured our eventual victory. (If that depiction helps anybody) :p


OH GAH! I had used it as a minor staging zone for troops. I 'thought' it was ok as it was behind the front lines. The AI hit a weaker supply line planet instead of a strong point defense at front? Wow! :P

Yeah, this is isn't Civ3. :lol: Due to the nodal nature of the game, and how fleets in transit are "in hyperspace" and cannot be intercepted, there are no real "lines". There are only targets in range of the enemy or not in range of the enemy. Thus the real split between "front line" and "back line" is what the AI can currently reach, or not. And that can differ per AI. As their tech advances, they can reach deeper and deeper, too.

And yes, this AI can smell weakness. It plays, at times, with very adept strategy. But again, not many variables it has to cope with in a nodal environment. Easy to amass a SoD. Easy to choose a target. Forces cannot be distracted en route. Combat takes place at the level of entire fleets engaging, rather than single units engaging in series. Due to these differences, even a feeble AI ten years old can put in a strong performance.

Would be nice if the next Civ AI could operate strategically. One can pray, yes? :p

More comments to come later. Don't wait on me, though, Jabah. Play as soon as you're ready!


- Sirian

Jabah
Apr 25, 2004, 06:51 AM
Got it.

Will play within the following hours.

Jabah

Jabah
Apr 25, 2004, 06:14 PM
Pre-turn

Check Races.
War with Alkari & Silicoids.
Silicoids have ClassIII and Hyper-X Missile (for their bases) and gatling laser and warp3 (for ship)
Alkaris have ClassIII and Hyper-X Missile (for bases) and Ion and warp2 (for ship)

Our base can have shield 8 (PlanetV+ClassIII) so are safe except from Bio attack and classic Bomb. --> try to have a least 1 on all planets.

Check Races.
War with Alkari & Silicoids.
Silicoids have ClassIII and Hyper-X Missile (for their bases) and gatling laser and warp3 (for ship)
Alkaris have ClassIII and Hyper-X Missile (for bases) and Ion and warp2 (for ship)

Our base can have shield 8 (PlanetV+ClassIII) so are safe except from Bio attack and classic Bomb. --> try to have a least 1 on all planets.

Remove all research from the 'front line' planets without at least a base.

There are 2 inferno systems (NE and SE corner) to colonise in our
Remove all research from the 'front line' planets without at least a base.

There are 2 inferno systems (NE and SE corner) to colonise in our backyards
Bootis is set to a colony (toxic as I don't want to scrap or wait)
Dunatis as well.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/InitialMap.png

We also need some gunship with warp3, but that will wait the discovery of weapons, propulsion & force field. Here is what we know (reminder for later)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Techno_1.png http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Techno_2.png http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Techno_3.png
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Techno_4.png http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Techno_5.png http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Techno_6.png


Sent some ships to Klystron to start attacking the Alkari SoD.

Hit enter

IT
Klystron battle.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Battle1_Bul.png http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Battle1_Alt.png

Move forward but wait for their fast ships to arrive, 1st volley hit the warhawks, killing 4/7 and badly damaging the 5th one. Ions finish the 5th, 2nd volley at the falcons, 14 to the bin. 5 Sparows shut down by Ion (not very efficient, but the only at range), Merculites retreat (1 lost), Ions retreats before taking too much hits (no lose, but not far) killing another 4 Sparows. Unfortunatly, they bomb and raze the system ...

Primodius (Silicoids, radiated system within our borders) bombing with far too few ships, just scratch 2 factories !!!

TURN1 : 2441
Gion is at max industry.

QUESTION : is sending retreating fleet back to attack the same system considered a cheat or not ? while waiting for clarification, the Klystron fleet retreats to the closest system (1t away)


Jabah

Jabah
Apr 25, 2004, 06:15 PM
IT

Primodius battle, 1 morey (1 Hyper-X missile boat) defends the planet and retreats against our 27 merculites. bomb 4M this time.
Build the colony at Tauri (Toxic 20).

TURN2 : 2442
Trax, Ursa, Jinga, Gienah (artifact) are at max industry.
The alkari didn't colonised Krystron after razing it, strange or they know they can't keep that safe.
4 techs are already in % stage.

Chat with Sakkra, get Anti-Missile for Improve-Industry8 (old), in case we want a really anti-heavy base bomber. (could help our weapon level ? now we are lvl25).

Send a small task force (+45 troops) to Obaca (UPoor Ocean)in 4t to start removing the Silicoids from the SE quadran.


IT

Primodius battle, same deals

Discovers ClassV & Control Radiated.
Choice between ClassIV (no), RepulsorBeam (?), Personal Absorb Shield, PlanetX or ClassVI -> difficult choice, either bonus attack or defense base... I take the PlanetX.
Choice between Soil Enrich, Terraf40, Cloning, Atmo Terraf or Adv Eco Restor. I go for the cheapest Soil Enrich to let the next leader(s) to have the same problem and decide what is better for later. :lol:
Build a colony at Mu Delphi (inferno 40) in the NE and Misha (inferno rich 25) in the SE.

TURN3 : 2443
Bootis, Argus, Dunatis, Proteus are at max industry
Scrap the Toxic colony for a Radiated.
Send troops to capture the radiated Primodius.
Send the fleet to Krystron to intercept a small Alkari fleet (28 pelican & 1 warhawk).

IT
Alkari retreats at Klystron.
Discovers Fusion Drive, start the Impulse Drive

TURN4 : 2444
Helos is at max industry.

IT

Our spies manage a steal in Psilon, chooce between all the tech but Computer, look at my notes (from the 1st turn), Propulsion is range8, Force field in ClassIV, Planet is Soil Enrich, Weapon is Scatter Pack or Antimatter Bomb, Construction is 1 useless (Improv7) 1 ok? (auto repair) and 2 nice (Zortium & Reduce Waste 40%) ... Go for Construction --> the useless but we frame the silicoids. :lol:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Steal1.png


Primodius: 20vs20, we capture with 9 casualties
GNN headline : We have 26 stars.

TURN5 : 2445
Tech - weapons is now at 29%. Still waiting.
Send a 3 systems attack on Darrian, unfortunatly it is not scan so soldier will have to wait.
Chat with Psilion, get ScatterPackV for ImprovedIndus6

IT
Discover the Stinger missiles, choice between : Ion riffle, MassDriv, AntiMatter BB & Torp, Megabolt, Tachyon Beam ... Go for the Megabolt (some AI have some cheapest tech)
Colonise Paranar (radiated 35 in NE) and Thrax (radiated rich 25 in SE)
Land in Obaca 46vs55 and capture losing 21 soldiers
Reject peace with Silicoids.

TURN6 : 2446
Redesign our Gunship -Ion 4- and MissileBoat -Stinger 4- Scraping the (useless) Sentinell and Colony.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Sh_Ion4.png http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Sh_Stinger4.png


IT
Attack Darrian (Inferno 20), blow the 2 bases.

TURN7 : 2447
Send 50 soldiers to Darrian (in 1t)

IT
Phantos is under attack...
4 bases (Stinger+ScatterV) + 25 Merculite + 2 Stinger facing 2 Sharks, 1 Mako and 15 Moreys

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Battle2_Map.png
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Battle2_Sil.png
--> no survivor (them) for no casualties (us).

Darrian attack --> they retreat before combat.
Cryslon attack : 12 bases against 2 ions (old) and 19 Merculites --> retreat after blowing 3 bases.
Darrian landing --> capture and get new tech : BattleSuits,

TURN8 : 2448
The Alkari SoD is moving NE from Yarrow, slowly, to Incedius or more likely to Spica, might try tp blow there base while it on mission...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SoD_2448.png

IT
1 shark attacks Tyr, 9 new Stinger4 are there defending. 1st volley desintegrates the shark.
Lost contact with darlok ... THE Alkaris have captured their closest planet.

TURN9 : 2449
Send 162 Merculites + 14 Stingers to Yarrow to 'explore' and blow the hell out of that bird nest.
send 19 Merculites + 9 Stingers to Cryslon as well.
12 Makos seems to approch Phantos.

IT
The battle at Yarrow
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Battle3_Alt.png
Somehow, I missed something are we have only 12 Merculites + 14 Stingers + 2 Ions2 there facing 5 bases+ 1 warbird+1warhawk+28pelicans ---> blow the 5 bases, the 2 warXXX and retreat losing 1 Ion2 (other escapes with 5/150) and some missiles boats.
At Kryslon, barely destroy all the 7 bases thanks to some Ions2 finishing the job (against shield3 base)
Vote: Psilion (19) vs Us (2).
Psilons : 9 for Psilons
Silicoids : 5 for Psilons
Sakkras : 2 for us
Darlosks : 1 for Psilons
Alkaris : 4 for Psilons
We : 18 abstains to be nice
But Psilons say they can tolerate our acts of terrorism ?!?

TURN10 : 2450
The 150 Merculites that should have arrived at Yarrow were slowed by a scout and some bombers (I thought I had removed them)

Do nothing and pass the game.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/FinalMap.png

Few comments.
1/ The SoD is moving NE
- probably to Spica will take another 10t (at least) at warp1.
- still a chance that they move to Incedius (dificult to tell), A 'small' task force is there and 1 Ion4 and 8 Stinger4 should arrived next turn, but even if that enough to crack any decent planet, they won't be able to do lots and the planet despite a few bases might be toasted.

2/ Should send troops to Cryslon, even if it say Terran20, it is a size100 planet with lots of waste to clean. Since there are more than 100 Silicoids troops, send at least as much.

3/ Should scrap all this stupid scout (or move them out of the way), it too easy sending them slowing some troops. In general having Warp2 (scout, bomb, Ion2), warp3 (merculite) and warp4 (Ion4, Stinger) on the same system is a nightmare.

4/ Alkaris have shield4 now.

5/ We are at war again with Psilons.

6/ My missile boat is without computer (and Ecm, shield...) to have the maximum damage on board, since missiles do a fixe amount of damage, computer are probably less needed (Sirian Missile had some computer but no Scanner).

7/ Not sure MoO is great for SG, I spent almost as long getting into the situation (our tech, planets, AIs tech, planet ship... some which without playing the previous turns are even not possible to know) than playing the 10t. (had to make lots of screen shots (like our techs, AI reports, ships encountered) to avoid silly mistakes).

Jabah
Sorry for the small pictures, but it is getting too late for playing with the editor for 17 pictures.

The SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/osg1-team1-2450.zip)

Sirian
Apr 25, 2004, 07:08 PM
Quick Comments. More details remarks later.

* Re-ordering a fleet to stay at the system it is retreating from is not cheating. The game allows it, and in fact was changed to allow it. (The original version, unpatched, handled retreat automatically and you couldn't do anything). Now, whether or not allowing fleets to stay at a system is "too strong" and needs regulating is another question. This is one of those "keeping my eye on it" issues to see how things go. We will probably eventually have rules covering this, but on a graded scale where different games and scenarios operate at different levels of permissiveness.

* Battle Computers indirectly affect missile damage. They affect the hit ratio. Missiles that do not hit do no damage. Having more of your missiles hit means more damage. Also, initiative is affected by attack rating, too. Moving first and firing first are important to a missile boat. If an enemy ship has high initiative and moves TWICE before the missile boat moves once, it can be rendered completely inept both in carrying out its mission and in mere survival. Neglecting computers on a missile boat becomes increasingly unwise as the tech tree progresses. Missile boats usually don't need state of the art computers, though. If current best is, say, Mark VII, then a Mark V or Mark IV might be the best value. "None" is usually not the best choice, though, unless we're talking about Nuke Boats in the earliest parts of a game.

* Well done on capturing three Silicoid systems and nabbing what I think is our first techs acquired from looting during an invasion. Battle Suits! Yes. :hammer:

More later. I, erm, need to finish up the final touches on my Imperium One report. :crazyeye:


- Sirian

Justus II
Apr 25, 2004, 10:04 PM
Got it, but it's late, so I will play tomorrow night, which will give me time for

getting into the situation (our tech, planets, AIs tech, planet ship... some which without playing the previous turns are even not possible to know) than playing the 10t. (had to make lots of screen shots (like our techs, AI reports, ships encountered) to avoid silly mistakes).

AND

finish up the final touches on my Imperium One report.

;)

Jabah
Apr 26, 2004, 03:15 AM
I realized too that reducing the computer level might have been a bad idea. The initiative, we can do without, as I usually was waiting for the ennemy to come closer, the decrease in hit% is more a problem, even if now we were using them to strike on planet which have a very little defence (or not?).

With our new techs and the AIs higher level of shield & missile, it might be good (or not?) to build a 'planet burster' : large ship, state of the art ECM, Shield, Anti-missile, with the latest Bomb (the 50dmg or 40dmg).

Jabah

Sirian
Apr 26, 2004, 02:46 PM
Having computers on a missile boat is more important if targetting planets (enemy missile bases) for hit and run. Missile bases have ECM Jammers built in. Normally the bonus targetting for advanced missile types counters this, more or less, but that is assuming you keep up in Battle Computers.

This particular game is as much a training/exploration exercise as any other purpose, though, so the more of these finer points that come to light, the better, in my view. In SG format, they stretch out more, too, making it easier to absorb them and remember.


- Sirian

Justus II
Apr 27, 2004, 02:00 AM
OK, we open with a three-front war, but we are also solidly in the lead. Doing well in tech, although (of course) the Psilons are up by an advance or two in each field. Espionage has been paying off nicely, definitely want to continue that. In fact, we just got a round of tech in, so itís time for a new ship design. Actually, Jabah just created a new Ion 4, but looking at our current fleet, itís time to scrap the Scout 2Xs, and probably replace the bombers as well. I think we can make some headway on both the Silicoid and Alkari fronts, while trying to steal whatever tech I can from the Psilons. I also see that our only non-enemy, the Sakkra, is also at war with the other three. Perfect candidate for an alliance, but he doesnít agree. He will accept a Non-Aggression Pact, though, which I sign.

On the home front, we have a few planets that still need shields, and quite a few still growing and building up factories, but we do have a handful of strong, maxed planets for research or shipbuilding. I keep most of the planets building Ion 4ís, and hold off on any more Stinger 4ís until I see how they do in combat without a computer. We have plenty of missile boats for now, and I want to boost our tech spending. I also beef up defense spending at Darrian, which is on the border, and Primodius, also a border and possible target. I send some of our reserve cash over. I go ahead and scrap the Scouts, although I donít replace the design yet, Iím thinking about a new bomber with the Omega V.

Start the invasion of Crysalon, by sending 26 from Antarres and 36 from Xudax, due in 3. I will add some from Darrian next turn. I also send a group of Ion 2ís and bombers against Omicron, and redirect our retreating fleet back to Yarrow, to meet up with the 150 Merculites. Send a few of our

IBT: The Alkari SoD does indeed attack Incedius! Good thing Jabah had some newer Ion 4ís and Stinger 4ís there, and more on the way. Hereís the breakdown:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/OSG1_2400_Incedius_Alkari.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/OSG1_2400_Incedius_Us.jpg

Laserís canít do anything to the Ion 4ís, and not much to the Ion 2ís. The WarBirds have the Ion cannons, theyíre the bigger threat, along with his armed Colony ships. After waiting one round for him to move in closer, the missile ships and bases concentrate on the Warbirds, then the Colonies with the second round. Meanwhile, my Ion 4ís maneuver along the top edge, to see who will separate from the pack. I move in to finish the Warbirds after the first salvo hits, while the missiles are enough to kill the Colony ships outright. Warhawks take a couple rounds from the planet and Ion 2s, while our missile ships are now spectators. Once all the large ships are gone, it is a steady game of attrition, as I start to whittle down the fighter stack, with scatter-Vs from the planet and my Ion ships, I am killing 60 or so per turn, while he does 10-20 damage to my Ion cruisers. Eventually, he retreats with 128 survivors, all at the cost of one Ion 2. :)

Yarrow is explored, as his fleet is gone. It is a size-80 Artifact world, currently at 53 pop and 125 factories. I definitely want to take this one intact. A Silicoid Colony ship bombs our colony at Paranar (I thought we had a base there, sorry I missed it) killing 4 pop and 12 factories, but then his ship is gone the next turn (Out of range?).

2451: Launch the invasion of Yarrow, with 24 from Incedius, and 30 from Jinga. I also add another 23 from Darrion to the Crysalon invasion, in 2 more turns. Shift some new ships around.
IBT: At Darrian, the Silicoids arrive with 12 Mako, basically a large missile boat with 5 Hyper-X launchers (2x5, 3x2) and a scanner. We have an Ion 4, 25 Merculite, and 9 Stinger-4ís, and after our first 2 salvos knock him down to 8, our Cruiser goes toe to toe, and he obligingly sticks around as I kill one every other round, until the last survivor finally retreats. More scouting reports, Omicron is a Rich Inferno, Iím not in a position to take it, so I do bomb here, killing 35 pop and 32 factories. We get a message from the Sakkra, as they also notice the growing threat of the Silicoid empire.

2452: I follow up with our Sakkra friends, and this time they do sign an alliance. Obaca chips in 20 to the assault on Cryslon, Nitzer sends 20 to join the assault on Yarrow. Psilon fleets on the move, could be Phantos or Darrian, which doesnít have any bases yet.
IBT: Chase a Warbird from Yarrow. The ground pounders arrive at Yarrow, and mix it up. Our 74 troops overwhelm his 34, in fact we only lose 7. (I see later he sent 28 transports out the turn before we arrived :crazyeye: ). Our assault at Crysalon also arrives, more evenly matched (105 to 110), but the result is a blowout. Silicoids are destroyed, and we lose 23, 82 pop left to stand up the planet! Not to mention all the factories intact. From our two assaults, we get two techs: Class IV Shields from Yarrow, Mass Drivers from Crysalon.

2453: The Psilons are moving in 2 groups, at different speeds, but Iím not sure if they have 2 different targets, or are both headed for Darrian. I shift more ships to Phantos, I should be able to double back to Darrian if the 2nd group passes Phantos for Darrian.
IBT: Yep, heís hitting both targets, good thing I shifted forces. Main battle is at Phantos. He brings 5 large and 27 Medium Star Wings, vs. my 1 Ion 4, 6 Stinger 4s, and 22 Merculites, as well as 8 bases.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/OSG1_2400_Phantos_Psilon.jpg
Main threat to the planet are the Sunfires, with the spores, so I target them first. In fact, the missile volleys take out all the large ships, and my Ion kills 3 of the Star Wings before they retreat. Our second battle is at Darrian, where 8 Ion 2ís and 5 Stinger-4ís chase off a Star Wing and a colony ship.

2454: The Alkari are broken, time to go for the kill. I converge my fleet on Altair, from Yarrow and Nitzer.
IBT: Altair has 15 bases, and 3 Warbirds and a Colony. I have 4 Ion 4ís, 31 Stinger-4ís, and our 160+ Merculites. They make short work of the bases, even from a distance, although the first couple volleys reach us, costing me 11 Stingers, but his bases are destroyed (the ships retreated). I chase his remaining small Pelicans from Yarrow. The Alkari ask us to break our alliance with the Sakkra?

2455: Now that we have scanned Altair, time to put some Boots on the Ground! 25 from Nitzer and 35 from Yarrow ought to do it.
IBT: The 60 troops land on Altair, to face his 110. We are again victorious, losing only 15 troops, and capturing 363 factories and Terraforming +40. We also get the GNN message that we control a majority of the galaxy. Meanwhile, some of our older bombers have reached the Psilon colony at Morrig, which he has conveniently left undefended. The planet has 72 pop, but my bombardment kills 8, and 32 factories.

2456: Adjust sliders for Terraforming (manually). Launch task forces to Ukko and Ajax (3 turns) to finish off the Alkari.
IBT: Our first fleet arrives at Ukko, which has 10 bases, but with 72 Merculites, they donít last long. Bomb Morrig again, killin 11 and 31 factories.

2457: Continue the westward invasion march by sending 24 troops from Altair to Ukko. Ursa is already maxed in pop, now for building the new factories.
IBT: I see another 3 Warbirds and a Colony at Ukko, which I destroy. Our landing force arrives, 24 mil vs. his 90. Weíve been averaging a 5-1 or better kill ratio, but this time I cut it very close, we win with only one to spare, but we do get Iridium Cells (Range 8):
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/OSG1_2400_Ukko.jpg
This also puts us in contact with the Darloks, who are also worried about the Psilons!

2458: After checking diplomacy, I decide to cut back on spying, as most races have nothing we would want. I keep a small trickle going in, but less than before. I am able to get a 75BC Trade Deal with the Darloks, but donít push for an alliance, next leader can decide that.
IBT: Our fleet is now at Ajax, which also has 10 bases, and a couple Warbirds. Once they are out of the way, however, our bombers struggle to get close, losing 9 of 12 trying due to his missiles, and they also arenít that devastating to the planet bases. Ajax will have to wait for a bigger ship or more bombers. Another battle breaks out with the Psilons at Esper. His 25 Star Wings come in against our Ion cruisers and Merculites, but they donít make it out alive! Morrig loses another 10mil, Iím amazed that he hasnít sent some ships to chase my bombers off yet!

2459: I send some more Merculites to Ajax.
IBT: Not a lot, although many planets are now re-maxing at the +40 size. Silicoids ask that I break my deal with the Sakkra, but forget that.

2460: Shuffle some population forward from rear systems. I have left most ships unmoved, for the next leader. Be very alert in the south, near Phantos and Darrian, as the Psilons have ships going back and forth, and some Iím sure are targeted on them. Itís hard to tell the destination with them so close, but at least you can usually react a fleet from one to the other. This turn, you will probably need to move some ships from Phantos to Darrian.

Other Notes:
- I havenít made an alliance with the Darloks yet, but Iím sure we can.
- I also havenít scrapped our old bomber, or started our new one, although the design is there. Itís just an Omega V with our best engines, and decent computers and speed. The next leader can scrap the bombers and come up with a new design.
- Also, the first turn some fleets should be arriving at Ajax, and should be able to finish off the Alkariís last colony, but do we want the rep hit for genocide? Again, I leave that call up to the next leader.
- Most planets have completed terraforming, and are steadily building the factories to use the new land. A few still are putting a sliver into ship construction.
- Although weíve been making progress in the west, we need to be careful of all those Psilon ships in the south, so I havenít made any push yet, itís been all reaction.

OK, lead us to victory in finally grounding the Alkari!

Here's the Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/OSG1_Team1_2460.zip)

Sirian
Apr 27, 2004, 04:11 AM
Down with the Alkari. :hammer: Vengeance for Klystron! [plasma]

Pound some dirt. Boots on the ground. Knock some heads. Mix it up. :sniper:


- Sirian

Jabah
Apr 27, 2004, 05:39 AM
Originally posted by Justus II


- I also havenít scrapped our old bomber, or started our new one, although the design is there. Itís just an Omega V with our best engines, and decent computers and speed. The next leader can scrap the bombers and come up with a new design.


Do bombers need computer?
Is bombing an automatic hit, or you have to roll attack against defence ?
I guess, bomber might need a tactical speed of 4 only to be able to strike the planet before facing the second volley. (You might need a computer to have initiative - I am answering my own question :lol: )

Jabah

Charis
Apr 27, 2004, 08:35 AM
Some outstanding turns there guys, good job! :hammer:

I also really appreciate the questions that are going around on the need for computers, and would ask you continue, even if you think you know the answer, please!

I will echo Jabah's comment though, also I'm too new to know if it's a Moo-SG thing or my own insecurity, but getting into context is a *bear*. The diplo and attitudes aren't reflected by a status of war or lack of war, knowing where ships are headed is tough, and I don't have a good sense of 'what should I be doing know'. I think it will come, and things will get at least somewhat better. One thing I found helpful as a reader in other SG's, and which I did myself a lot, was to take an extra few minutes after that significant getting-into-context period - to jot down what seems to be our weaknesses and opportunities, and what you plan to set about doing on your reign. What seems to be the case here more than in Civ though, is that it's a lot more dynamic and fluid. There, I can make a plan and expect 80-90% of the time to stick with it - only an unexpected war declaration or catastrophe would see a big shift in plans. Here it's more like always war in that every front you have is hot or potentially hot, and your exact moves in 5 turns are unknown and will depend more on what your opponents do. This makes for a richer game, but it also makes for a rougher succession.

Charis

EDIT - I have to remind myself... we're only in OSG *1*! The team here is *so* much more on board with the whole concept of a SG, and the skill level higher than for something like (cough) RBD1. It's also clear though... our expectations of ourselves and of the SG experience are higher this time :D

Justus II
Apr 27, 2004, 08:48 AM
Good points, Charis. I also think one thing that makes long-term planning more complicated is the tech model. Whereas in Civ, you have one research topic, and generally know to the turn when it is coming in, here you could have multiple techs coming due, and their arrival is unpredictable, so it's harder to come up with specific plans like 'pre-builds' as you would in Civ, you just have to be flexible, and have some general objectives. It's particularily important in planning when to design/redesign a ship, and when to stop production of older, but still useful ships, that you may be scrapping soon.

Isit
Apr 27, 2004, 12:23 PM
I have it. I should have my turns up sometime tomarrow.

Sirian
Apr 27, 2004, 03:49 PM
Computers do matter on a bomber. ECM doesn't affect bombs, though, so I think Mark V (or maybe Mark VI) nets you "autohit". Bombs do a range of damage, and like with beams, I think (don't quote me) that additional computer levels continue to improve minimum damage. Meaning, yes, they matter.


Charis: yeah, there is some "always war" feel to this game. It's not quite that bad, though. If an AI has multiple directions in which to push, good relations with them matter. The only times good relations do not matter are:

1) Erratics will declare out of the blue, governed by the dice.
2) If the only targets in range of a given AI are your worlds.
3) If a civ allies with another civ with whom you are at hot war, they may "honor" their alliance regardless of relations with you.

These AI's are coded with high pressure to expand territory. Any of them will attack, with certainty, if their pressure meters rise to critical levels. As soon as all the habitable stars have been grabbed, pressures will start to rise to obtain territory by any means necessary.

There are pretty much four states of relations:

* Hot war (declared war)
* Cold war (undeclared war - same as above, except not declared)
* Brush war (also known as "normal operations")
* Alliance. (Only your allies are true friends, and even they can decide an alliance no longer serves their interests, and break it!)

Hope that helps.


- Sirian

Isit
Apr 29, 2004, 02:38 AM
Sorry I am running a bit late this time around. I will have my turns up tomarrow morning.

Isit
Apr 29, 2004, 11:30 AM
I am very sorry but I think I am going to have to skip my turn this time around. I just got back from class this morning with another paper to write which makes a grand total of 5 due next week. This means I just dont have time to take 2-3 hours to do my turn right. Sorry about the late notice, hopfully if things get around to me again school will be over for the summer.

Sirian
Apr 29, 2004, 02:30 PM
Isit: OK. Pound some books. Boots in the classroom. Fill your head. Learn it up. :hammer:

Garath, you're UP NOW. Lead us to glory.

- Sirian

Garath
May 01, 2004, 04:04 AM
Got it.

However, I probably won't be playing immediately, since I've got family visiting in RL. I'll get to it within the next day or so, though.

Garath

Ozymandous
May 01, 2004, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Justus II
Good points, Charis. I also think one thing that makes long-term planning more complicated is the tech model. Whereas in Civ, you have one research topic, and generally know to the turn when it is coming in, here you could have multiple techs coming due, and their arrival is unpredictable, so it's harder to come up with specific plans like 'pre-builds' as you would in Civ, you just have to be flexible, and have some general objectives. It's particularily important in planning when to design/redesign a ship, and when to stop production of older, but still useful ships, that you may be scrapping soon.

I hope I am not intruding (pardon if so) but what you're describing is what makes MOO so much better than almost any other Strategy game before or since it's time.

You cannot plan out every single move and 'optimize' to exploit the games weaknesses time after time. The saying about the best plans never survive first contact with the enemy is especially valid here, IMHO. Not saying you can't plan ahead some, but this game definitely isn't Civ3 where you can sit down almost from turn one and map out 95% of the game and how it will play out. The fact that on it's hardest level it can almost consistently hold it's own and beat some of the best players around is proof of it's success in forcing 'out of the box' adaptable thinking, which is almost never a bad thing in a game.

This is what makes MOO such a great game because as a player you have to always adapt, and use what advantage you get when you can. Yet I don't think I have ever seen something like the Cavalry rush issue in Civ3 with MOO becase there isn't usually one specific unit that can break the game so quickly.

Anywho, glad that everyone is having fun here, and looks like you all are doing well. Good luck. :)

Zed-F
May 01, 2004, 12:48 PM
Well not until the end-game anyway. :) High speed bombers pretty much trump all. There are ways to deal with them, but the AI doesn't know them. This does, of course, assume you have some reasonable bombs available to you, however.

Garath
May 03, 2004, 04:33 AM
OK, let's do this!

Unfortunately, the first point on loading the game is that I still can't design ships in this game: my private games are fine, but even redownloading the game and restarting the computer had no effect on this one. I don't think I'll be able to design ships anymore in this SG. If that's too big a problem, feel free to drop me from the roster.

First order of business is to check over the realm:
1. I put some more spying into the Psilons, as usual they have some nice stuff.
2. I will wipe out the Alkari, we're unlikely by now to be able to get back in with the Silicoids or Psilons anyway, and their fleet is still large enough to be annoying if I don't.
3. Most of the place is re-maxing factories, so I leave them alone.
4. There is an unsightly white blot at Klystron, in the middle of my territory. It must die! (I know it's Ultra Poor, but it costs me almost nothing to take it, and if they want to waste time sending a fleet all the way in to retake it, they're welcome to.
5. There are no enemies anywhere near Cryslon, and it's standing up bases pretty fast now, so I send the 3 Ion Cruisers there to Denubius in the South, the Silicoids appear to be almost empty there. I'll send some tropps to go with them in a turn or so.
6. I take the alliance with the Darloks. Pretty much seems to have come down to the two sides now.

OK, let's go:

2461: Fleet arrives at Ajax, the Merculites wipe out the bases there quite spectacularly. I don't bomb Ajax, as it's the last, with quite a lot of factories (300+). Continue bombing Morrig. Capture Klystron. A few planets start maxing factories, mostly they go back on ship construction. I send 80 or so troops to arrive at Ajax in 3 turns, which should be more than enough to take, and leave a fair few to build up from. Troops also sent to Denubius, I'll have captured it by the time the Silicoid transports arrive from halfway across the galaxy. Send a few ships from Ukko to the *actual* last Alkari colony, having now seen it, Tau Cygni in the north. Troops to follow to coincide with the arrival, there are no bases there.

2462: Defend Darrian against not much Silicoid. I feel like I could really do with a better beam weapon, though, the Ion4s aren't really doing all that much damage. Wwell, the Megabolt Cannon is coming in, unfortunately I won't be able to make use of it though. Sirian should have it by his turn. I switch some planets off building them onto Bombers and stingers, though, since they are probably obsolete soon.

2463:Capture Denubius. Run out of time before this evening, but I've been writing this as I go, so I'll post this and get the rest up later.

Garath

Garath
May 05, 2004, 08:08 AM
Too much family...

anyway:

2463(cont): Send the fleet on from Phantos to Rich Omicron, Phantos has stood up enough bases now. I feel confident enough to send troops as well, due in 3 turns.

2464: space fleet at Ajax negligible. Alkaris attack Ukko slightly, but are easily fended off. Ajax captured for the loss of 40 of our troops against 135 of theirs, and ECM Jammer IV stolen. Several planets finish Soil Enrichment. Psilons come calling to try to get me to break off my current alliances. Surprisingly, I'm not having any of that.

2465: Reduced Waste 40% comes in (only choice Improved Industrial 4), and I tell everywhere to reduce spending automatically, before realising that there are currently a load of planets on Soil :( Oops. On the plus side, we finally capture Tau Cygni, eliminating those pesky Alkari. While I'm faffing around with all the planets, I realise that a lot of them are currently building factories at part speed, or are low on colonists, and I set them up to fix as many of those as I can by the end of my turn, at the expense of some research for a bit (in fact, most of the research. There's a lot to be done). Oh, and I finally bombed Morrig into the ground.

2466: capture Omicron. The Psilons have some decent gropo techs, the losses are more significant against them. Still only about 1:2, but worth noting. We could do with a couple of steals from them.

2467, 2468: nothing much of note, just a lot of planets maxing either colonists or factories.

2469: mess up slightly, leaving Ukko without amazing cover, and lose 11 merculites when the Psilons attack it. Not all that big though. Discover Zoctan to be empty of bases, send troops in. The Psilon Star Blade ship is really rather scary, Large with 15 or so Antimatter bombs and 7 death spores. And there seem to be several small fleets of them floating around, and I *still* don't know where they're headed. More bases all round at the front, I say!

2470: 6 Star Blades hit the 7 bases at Altair, the most I could stand up in time. Which aren't nearly enough. I only kill one before they're on the planet with their Inertail stabilisers, and they only take 2 rounds to kill all the bases. And then they shell Altair into the ground. Grrrr... Impulse Drives came in, Range 10 the only option.

Not, perhaps, the best situation I could have left you with Sirian. I apologise. On the plus side, there's absolutely no way we're going to lose from control of over half the galaxy. Might we even win on your vote?

Here's the game: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/BigRed-2470(team1).zip

Garath

Sirian
May 06, 2004, 01:04 AM
Looks like those parentheses jacked up the link. I found the file so you don't have to fix the link, but be warned, no parentheses in future zipfile names. They cause problems.

As far as your results, losing Altair is not a disaster. If the Psilons have a decent fleet out there, we either move more slowly or we accept that they'll turn a few sites into spuds. As long as our core holds and theirs is diminishing, we're going in the right direction.

Pound some dirt. Boots on the ground. Knock some heads. Mix it up! :hammer:

I've got the game now. I'll be back later. :)


- Sirian

Sirian
May 07, 2004, 07:15 AM
Guys I've got a problem. For business reasons, I had to upgrade my Internet Explorer from version 5 to version 6. This has broken the "fix" I had in place to enable EMS memory under WinME. At present, I cannot run MOO1 on my main computer.

I will work around this one way or another, but I may not get to it in a timely fashion. Go ahead and skip past me.

Charis... you're up! :eek:


I had intended to open Imp3 on Monday, but I may have to push that back a week. :crazyeye: We'll see.


- Sirian

Charis
May 07, 2004, 07:55 AM
This has broken the "fix" I had in place to enable EMS memory under WinME. At present, I cannot run MOO1 on my main computer.

:eek:

Got it...
Charis

Charis
May 10, 2004, 06:41 PM
First post in the 'new' forum, so let's give this a try. BTW, they request
that attachments under 500 KB in size be posted via the 'attach' feature, NOT the 'upload page'. There is now a very handy 'remove old attachments' feature on the board, although larger files should still go via upload.
---

SitRep: We're at war with Psilons and Silicoids.
Psilons are up: ECM III, Adv Scanner; Personal Suit; ; Automated Repair, Zortium, Andrium;
Atm Terraform; Anti-Matter bomb and hard beam. (We have SIX spies vs them! Yummy)
Silicoids are only up ECM III, and others have nothing on us.
OMG we are **way** ahead on pop and planets, and distincts tops in fleet and total power.
Though the CFC forum is down, RB forum says min victory is conquest. This n00b must
check what that means... can vote yourself emperor on your votes alone (2/3), as opposed
to domination with 50%. We may just be there?! Taking a few more Psilon planets, or
glassing them, should do it. The look at the galaxy map is as impressive as I've ever
seen :P

2470 - I see troops en route for Zoctan, and a huge fleet of ours in orbit there.
Past Zoctan, there are no explored Psilon systems, but these are in close range:
Beta City, Mobas, Xendalla, Escalon, Guradas. Not knowing what's there I send
at least a small ship to each to see.
IBT - NW-most yellow star is Orion, I get to see the 6000hp guardian! (eep!)
At Nimzer, we wipe out 12 invading star wings, 7 escape. Closeby we drive off a ship.
At Yarrow, Psilon spies detroy 19 factories. SW scout blue system Beta Ceti.
Also scout Cygni in the south, a dead system. We have the choice to bombard Zoctan,
with 40 pop and 60 facs, but with 40 bears en route, no need. We demolished them,
losing only 4 (!) in the process, 10:1 kill ratio. A new tech from this: ECM Jam III.
Finally, 5 systems complete their terraforming.

2471 - Troops send to pound the ground at Beta Ceti.
IBT - We see 12 star blazers defending 105 Mobas and must run away.
New tech comes in FF: Class X Planetary shield, start on Repulsor beam. Also start
Pulsars in wpns. Capture Beta Ceti, with 9 of 26 surviving against about 30. In the
attack we learn atmospheric terraforming.

2472 - Omicron sends troops against Morrig. IBT - We see on Guradas (pop 17) only
one medium Star blazer defender, no bases.
At Escalon(125) is a single large star blade (with death spores and bombs only), and
4 bases with scatter packs. Insufficient force, so we retreat.
Xendalla(100) has a Coronna, 5 Star Blades, 18 Star Blazers, 24 Star wings.
ECM 5 comes in, we start improved Robotics 5. Morrig is captured with no losses (8 on 2)

2473 - Move ships to the front. IBT -

We scout Willow of Silicoids, size 17 tundra pop 49?. Scout Aurora pop 38 of 11.
A Mako or 2 slip by and attacks Klystron, destroying 1 factory, whoops.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=54245&stc=1 <-- the URL for the img surrounded by IMG tag, doesn't work

Hmmm... if I use 'attachments', I can't really position them mid-post, can I? That won't do
for multiple picture storytelling, but for now, I'll close with an attachment of a galaxy map... (below is 'attachment' jpg)

Charis

Charis
May 10, 2004, 06:43 PM
2474 - Most key cities finish their Class X planet shields.
I think the vote is in the bag, and I'm sure we're over 2/3. Hit next turn...
Actually, first I'll exit and switch to DosBox for what I hope will be a good
screenshot. (I don't normally play using that as it's VERY choppy)

IBT - Here's the vote result...

Charis
May 10, 2004, 06:46 PM
IBT - We park in Guradas, and bombard Willow and Aurora. Also, a steal comes in
vs Psilon, and we chose weapons. Anti-matter bomb is the result.
IBT - 10 Psilon for Psilon, 4 Silicoid votes for Psilon, 3 Sakkra votes for us (!),
1 Darlok vote for the Bulrathi! How many total votes?
56, and we have 38. The conquest limit of 2/3 is... 37.33. We have 67.86% Bingo!

We accept the ruling, and an honor guard escorts us to Orion! :hammer:
The Galactic Imperium has been reformed, by da Bears!

Excellent game guys!! That was quite a bit of fun. I learned alot but didn't feel
completely useless :P

Here's the save in 2474 before the vote, in case anyone wanted to press on further,
or to see the vote/win for themselves.

(I'm trying to attach a final img and the 2474 final save... seems to work well..
doh, the image doesn't show up as an image 8-\ )

:hammer:
Charis

Sirian
May 10, 2004, 07:03 PM
Great job, Charis. Wow, the game's already over? :eek:

I'm glad I had to pass it on, so you'd get another go-round. The cosmos sometimes works in mysterious ways. :p


BTW, they request that attachments under 500 KB in size be posted via the 'attach' feature, NOT the 'upload page'. There is now a very handy 'remove old attachments' feature on the board, although larger files should still go via upload.

That sucks. That positively, absolutely STINKS.

I am not writing whole posts then attaching a slew of pictures at the end. That will just not happen. I will not crimp my style. My answer to this will be either to continue to use the uploads folder (why fix something that ain't broken?) or to make one reply per screenshot. The effect of images is to illustrate the commentary. The pics belong inside the post, with commentary before the image, and commentary after the image. If I have to stretch my commentary out across a lot (A LOT) more posts, just to retain control over where in the commentary a particular image appears, I'll do that.

This is a significant DOWNGRADE in the forum capability, IMO. This is just plain bad news for the SG community, as far as image handling goes.


- Sirian

Zed-F
May 10, 2004, 07:47 PM
I'm pretty sure they won't object too strenuously if some of us prefer to continue using the uploads folder.

As regards the game, congratulations on a solid game! :hammer: Interestingly, the net effect of early warfare in your game was not much different from our relatively peaceful expansion (at least until someone chose unwisely.) Was that because the AIs expanded less aggressively in our game, or because the fact that we concentrated less on shipbuilding meant that we were able to expand faster ourselves?

We did lag behind your game for a while in terms of tech, due to the fact that we were not at war and hence not stealing/capturing as much tech, but we did ultimately capture a bunch of tech that way once war was declared.

Any other thoughts?

Charis
May 10, 2004, 08:10 PM
Regarding the uploads... I think Zed is right in that the uploads folder is still available. They've changed the standalone 'upload' page to have one file at a time instead of doing 3 at once, but you can still do that for inline pics.

The new 'addition', and reason they're leaning towards attachments is because now in your control panel there is a "manage attachements" feature where you can see every attachment/post you've made and can delete them. I probably deleted 20+MB of attachments because now 'I could'.

I might think something like this would work fine:
- "Upload" as before all img's (compressed as usual, for smaller file size)
- "Attach" non-images, ie the save files.

As for game comparison, I'm looking forward to expert commentary, and will now have to read through the 'other game' in detail :hammer:

Charis

Justus II
May 10, 2004, 08:24 PM
So, we actually got the Sakkra to see the light? Good game, good refresher on the power of ground combat, I had been taking that somewhat for granted in the first Imperium, but a small advantage adds up quick. An important lesson, even if you're not 'da Bears', because it's easy to overlook the Gropo techs, but they do have a good payoff. More tech steals, faster to stand up defenses on new conquests, etc.

Thanks to the team, and to Sirian for hosting the SG, good idea to get the ball rolling. Now I also have to check out our "mirror mirror" universe. ;)

Isit
May 11, 2004, 02:42 AM
Good game everyone. I am looking forward to reading through the other team's thread. :)

Ozymandous
May 11, 2004, 12:57 PM
That sucks. That positively, absolutely STINKS.

I am not writing whole posts then attaching a slew of pictures at the end. That will just not happen. I will not crimp my style. My answer to this will be either to continue to use the uploads folder (why fix something that ain't broken?) or to make one reply per screenshot. The effect of images is to illustrate the commentary. The pics belong inside the post, with commentary before the image, and commentary after the image. If I have to stretch my commentary out across a lot (A LOT) more posts, just to retain control over where in the commentary a particular image appears, I'll do that.

This is a significant DOWNGRADE in the forum capability, IMO. This is just plain bad news for the SG community, as far as image handling goes.


- Sirian


Or... You host the images yourself and insert them where needed into the document. That would also work. :)

Sirian
May 12, 2004, 02:21 AM
Charis's suggestion sounds good. The save files tend to be large for civ (remember when they were, like, a couple of MEGS each?)

Zed, the range tech you pulled from the artifact created a different strategic situation for your team. We chose to settle south prior to teching for westward expansion, and that delay on moving west let the AI's grab planets they didn't reach in time in your game. Thus you were actually ahead of us on land. We ended up having to fight for lands you scored much more easily by getting the drop on the AI's with rapid westward expansion. I think there are some interesting and valuable strategic implications to that. :)


- Sirian