This lets the players have some fun with the game for experimental exploits. I'd have to dig up Civ II to see what all of the options were, but the most useful one was View Entire Map. I always disapproved of them removing this feature. One should never remove good features when trying to advance the standard of a game. I hope Firaxis already has this on the drawing board.

Cheats ruin any and all games, so I said no keep it out.

Originally posted by CIVPhilzilla
Cheats ruin any and all games, so I said no keep it out.

How does allowing a scenario maker the ability to add or subtract units, etc, on the fly "ruin the game"? Actually, it was absolutely vital and one of THE most complained about changes in vanilla Civ3. It was very, very, very time consuming to balance modern age mods because you had to play an entire game to get to those units.

Exactly

Bring back the cheat mode! How do cheats take away from the game? By tempting you to use them? No reason why that's gone.

Please no...
Let's us be more honest please.

I never used the cheat mode in Civ 2, but I voted Yes. It seems to me that "honesty" has nothing to do with this, and "cheat mode" is a misnomer: its really a powerful tool for testing mods. If you want to play the game without "cheating" (as I do) than simply do so: the presence of this tool would in no way force anyone to use it. If the name "cheat mode" bothers you, maybe they could call it "Modify this game." And as I recall, if you turned on "cheat mode" in Civ 2, you became ineligible for the high score list. Presumably, in Civ 4, you also couldn't use this feature in the middle of multiplayer games.

Besides, even if someone wanted to use this to "cheat" rather than to test a mod, why should I care? Nobody appointed me to be Honesty Police. I say put it in: I'll never use it (unless I somehow get a lot more free time and decide to try to make my own mod) but I think it should be there for the modders' sakes. No offense meant to anyone, but I fail to see how the presence of this tool "ruins" the game for anyone: unless someone cheats at multiplayer, how does what anyone else does with their game affect my game experience at all?

Come on it was fun nuking them in 3000 Bce.

There was a cheat mode??? I always played my on regular game..;) It would be fun to nuke in 3000BC..talk about world history.....weird:crazyeye:

My concern is that it will encourage new players to cheat rather than learn to play the game.

Playing with cheat in civ 2, at the time, may have been fun, but as I look at it back from now, I know it would be much better if I started playing the game authentically.

If you want to test mods, then use the editor debug mode. No need for cheat mode, IMO. :)

I agree with the "Cheat Mode" request. I learned Civ 2 by watching what the AI did. This allowed me to understand how units could be used and how the AI civs got advantages at certain difficulty levels. Besides, sometimes I just liked watching the AI duke it out!

As long as you can't cheat in multiplayer games why should it matter to anyone else if someone cheats in their own single player game?

What's wrong with Debug mode in the editor?

I used the cheat mode in Civ 2 until I realized it was like playing with toy soldiers in a sandbox - I wasn't really playing the game. At this point, I wouldn't use it if it were available, so I wouldn't be bothered by it. But I do want the designers to spend all their time working on making the game better. If it takes them more than about 15 minutes to code the cheats, it's not worth it, IMO.

One of the best things about Civ is that it is a REAL challenge and all decisions are important. Allowing cheats takes away the importance form any decision making and completely removes any challenge.

Like in the other thread, allowing cheats would be a decent extra as long as using cheat mode cannot be hacked into and it is completely obvious when someone cheats by recording this with their score. The only possible problems would be cheats like reveal map that can be undone by loaded an older save but this is already possible by retiring and looking at the map.

I really don't care. If people want to cheat, whom am I to say that they can't. I would suggest bring it back but once enabled, score is not calculated. That way modders can test their creations and "cheaters" can not claim high scores as legit.

Yep the important thing about implementing a cheat mode is to specify that once cheat mode is used this is recorded so that people cannot get ihigh scores through cheating.

My problem is that once this is in the code base, some unscrupulous player will find a way to abuse it for competitive games. If it isn't in the code base at all it's that much harder.

Its already possible to edit PBEM saves to cheat...

My problem is that once this is in the code base, some unscrupulous player will find a way to abuse it for competitive games. If it isn't in the code base at all it's that much harder.


There are models out in the industry that help curb abuse. I am not sure how it works since I am not a programs. There is a baseball simulation (Out of the Park Baseball) that runs multi-player leagues (I enjoy the sim but do not take part in the multi-player aspect). There are many ways to cheat during each individual game, the simplest is restarting when your team is losing. Without going into too much detail, the game recognizes when someone does not complete a game correctly and will not allow those results to be included into the mulitplayer model. Again, I am not sure how this is done, but it is supposed to work.


The simplest thing for civers to do, once it is discovered that another player is a cheater is not to include him/her in any multiplayer games. People are gonna cheat with or without the cheat codes. There should be, and I believe is, an honor code system among most of the fequent hall of famers and GOTMers follow it. I for one have never submitted my scores for inclusion into the hall of fame because I play a slightly modded game. I don't consider this a cheat, but I am sure that some purists do.

I think it should be broutght back in single player but not in multiplayer. I ahve only played 3 multi games and they were great fun. Cheats on Multi player would ruin a game. On single player I don't mind it at all in fact I would encourage it to a certain extent.

Depending on the cheats available then it could even be optional for mp games as well although it should be off by default and its unlikely that it would ever really be used.

If rcoutme proposal
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=1877326#post1877326
is implemented i bet you we'll want a cheat mode...lol

If it was too annoying to try to win, I wouldn't play. If I have to cheat to win then what's the point of playing?

I think you misunderstood me
I do want rcoutme's proposal to be implemented so that a cheat mode will be useless...

It's an interesting mechanism he proposed (and an entertaining read), but very easy to exploit ;)

I still don't see where his article has anything to do with cheat modes. It seems like you are spamming the threads with links to it. Firaxis reads the threads (trust me, they do). So do the mods.

I think that a good idea with such influence on the gameplay relates to everything.
I think that it deserves to be promoted even if it does not have an impressive title like Armageddon....or Giant Death...
I think that there is a distinction between spamming and being interested in assisting the improvement of the game.
I think that this answer is much more guilty of spamming than an 1 line link
I am sorry that I offended you(if I did)

NO NO NO! Cheating is bad!

If it was too annoying to try to win, I wouldn't play. If I have to cheat to win then what's the point of playing?

I already cheat. I love Civ3, but it takes too long for me, so I cheat using the Editor before starting the game. It's a much harder way to cheat, and requires a lot of premeditation, but I managed to create a new balance in the game that allows me to win faster (but not so fast that the game gets pointless).

I would love to see the cheat back

I find cheats or helps beneficial in so much as I find them useful for trying new things that would otherwise take along game to get to. For example if I wanted to see how my edited units behave in an emporer level game, then a few cheats to speed things up in some way or allow me to start with certain things to improve the game as I would like to play it, then the variables are there for me to try out. When your cheating yourself, your not fooling anyone but yourself, if you think you legitimately completed the game. Put them in.

A few suggestions for cheats I would use maybe,

remove movement restrictions,
allow trade with countries without a harbour or connected road,
autoupgrade units for free,
choose the technology you want to start with,
have a fixed rate of 2 turns for each discovery,
No revolt/corruption/disease/disarsters,
Money from cousin vinnie,

I am sure that there would be more. However I think that the final credit should show you as a (Cheater) for that game.

Kulgan, what you describe in your first paragraph isn't cheating, but rather debugging. It is needed for scenario and rules modding and is in the game now.

Looking at the poll result, I think most of those who love the "Cheat mode" has given up the game and this forums...

Its 60% to 40% which is reasonably close...

Hi warpstorm,
"If I have to cheat to win then what's the point of playing?"

Not everyone cheat to win, most of us cheat to have fun!
Take "Reveal map" as example , I can always win without revealing map, but I prefer to start my single player game with the map revealed. I have more fun playing that way. So "cheating" like the one offered in Civ2, is a mean for user to play the way they want. I don't really care about wining and the score, what I want is more fun in the process of playing...

I'd say no because cheats ruin the game and plus if you use cheats you don't get to play the whole game and you won't experience the games potionalnal. But i would agree to have cheats if you have completed the game fully then i would use cheats but i would have to play the game.

I never used the cheat mode in Civ 2, but I voted Yes. It seems to me that "honesty" has nothing to do with this, and "cheat mode" is a misnomer: its really a powerful tool for testing mods. If you want to play the game without "cheating" (as I do) than simply do so: the presence of this tool would in no way force anyone to use it. If the name "cheat mode" bothers you, maybe they could call it "Modify this game." And as I recall, if you turned on "cheat mode" in Civ 2, you became ineligible for the high score list. Presumably, in Civ 4, you also couldn't use this feature in the middle of multiplayer games.

Besides, even if someone wanted to use this to "cheat" rather than to test a mod, why should I care? Nobody appointed me to be Honesty Police. I say put it in: I'll never use it (unless I somehow get a lot more free time and decide to try to make my own mod) but I think it should be there for the modders' sakes. No offense meant to anyone, but I fail to see how the presence of this tool "ruins" the game for anyone: unless someone cheats at multiplayer, how does what anyone else does with their game affect my game experience at all?

Very well said.

Sorry guys, but sometimes I wonder how many of the posters concern the behaviour or others in their games. That's just not your business.
If somebody likes to have 10,000 ICBMs at the third turn of his game, fine. Where is the problem? How am I concerned with that?

Just rename the "cheat mode" to "testing mode", and everyone will cheer and call this the best idea ever.
Make the game track all saves and make it put in a marker in said saves after entering the testing mode, and the HOF issue is solved.

If somebody really wants to "cheat" - that is, getting a better score than he could have gotten without - he will find a way.

Why do you want a cheat mode? It just ruins the game. If you can't win, play on chieftain.

Cheats are always fun, but they ruin the game! :(

Why do you want a cheat mode? It just ruins the game. If you can't win, play on chieftain.

If you read some of the other posts then it might give an idea of why other people feel it might be of some use through testing or just for a little extra bit of fun by perhaps being able to make certain events occur like an alien invasion to just have a brief break from just having another game of Civ...

like an alien invasion
Darn! I never thought cheat mode in that way :mad:
( http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=89379)
could I change my vote now?

You could try PMing a mod although I'm not sure whether they would view changing votes as a priority...

Use the power bar

Cheats really ruin games.

Call it "Sandbox Mode" and everyone will be happy!! :) :)

I never used cheat mode for cheating in Civ2. I did use it however to help me. For example when I was founding cities I would place settlers where I wanted them to see how it looked. It's easier than doing it on paper or in my mind. For multiplayer and GOTM why not have a "cheat perm disable" box? Once checked then cheat can never be enabled but it starts out unchecked. That way single players can do what they want while multple can agree without the "cheat to look at map then restore before cheat" cheat.
Of course I would rather have other things but I doubt this will add too much time or money to developement.

Yes, as long as it can't be exploited. :)

i hate cheats of any kind but i like the easyness of createing scenerios in civ2 which i cant to in Civ3 in fact Civ3 is hard to create scenerios and as of yet i havent created one as its hard

I don't see what everyone's problem is with OTHER people cheaing in their OWN SP games. :p Not even GOTM or other competitive ones. :p Why do you care so much? If people want to cheat, let them. If that's how they have fun then what right do we have at preventing them from doing that as long as they're not impacting anyone else? :p

The cheat mode was just a compensation for a very limited editor. CivIV should have an editor at least as powerful as the CivIII one, so a cheat mode shouldn't be necessary.

My position is that you must have a possibility to cheat. If you want to you can. But that must reflect on your score. Period.

If anyone takes a look at any properly working ‘trainer’ made by anyone in these forums. You can easily notice the number of times the ‘trainer’ was downloaded. To make it short, who cares? There are a number of people who play chess just for fun with no wish to get better. The same principal applies to people who play civilization III.

I say, to hell with the cheats. If Civ 4 has a map maker like Civ 3, theres absolutely no need for them at all. I think an accelerated startup option is the closest thing to cheats the game should ever need

I dislike cheats in a civ-type game, it just does not feel right for that type of game. Maybe in a FPS or possablity a RTS, but not a TBG.

Cheats ruin any and all games, so I said no keep it out.

depends on the temperment of the player. after i mastered deity level i started using the cheat menu to handicap me. for example giving the other civs extra starting settlers or improvements or technologies to start with. ive used it to modify preexisting maps or alter my starting location to make it harder for me.

some of my modifactions led to weird games. the ai is tuned to play the default game and sometimes plays very badly on modified games. but ive also come across some pretty good ideas using the feature.

Why do you want a cheat mode? It just ruins the game. If you can't win, play on chieftain.

chieftan is cheating silly. the ai is severely handicapped.

I don't think there should be a cheat mode (It's known that Civ4 will use Python, so I'm pretty sure it'll be easy give player1 (yourself) 999,999,999,999 gold on turn1).

BTW, I used to use the cheat mode a lot on Civ2 to create scenarios (even though I never uploaded them to Apolyton). Most of the time was to switch between players to give myself a challenge.

Cheat mode is no good, there would be no fun in it...

IF it has to come again, at least put it in a special an hiden menu, that doesn't lock your attention and tempt you every turn, like in CIV2.

Another ide is to make it an option in the "Victory Limits" table in the begining!!!
1. If you want to test a mod, you would just turn it on.
2. If you want an easy game, you'd do the same.
3. NO MORE SMART Stragegies like: Save, Cheat, Load knowing all enem secrets...

How about this?

IF it has to come again, at least put it in a special an hiden menu, that doesn't lock your attention and tempt you every turn, like in CIV2.

Another ide is to make it an option in the "Victory Limits" table in the begining!!!
1. If you want to test a mod, you would just turn it on.
2. If you want an easy game, you'd do the same.
3. NO MORE SMART Stragegies like: Save, Cheat, Load knowing all enem secrets...

How about this?
Good! :goodjob:

This does seem to be a moralistic issue then a gameplay one. If someone wants to chea to win on Monarch, let them. For those of us who want to try and recover from our own devastating first strike, let them as well. Maybe if they also had a 'Edit Game' fucntion, it would start the editor with the current state. This would make modding easier and should even allow you to play test it as part of the editor.

Cheat Mode was how I made scenarios in CivII, so I had to go with yes on this one.

Wow, I just made the tying vote - 64 yes, 64 no. :) I voted no - there is already a debug mode to test things out. Cheats will only take up precious time the developers have to create the game.

Cheat Mode was how I made scenarios in CivII, so I had to go with yes on this one.

There's a scenario editor in the Civilization III directory...

I can't believe people want a cheat mode.....For what? Cheats takes much playability of games. One thing is editing the game, other is cheating.....

well i like my beer cold and my cheats enabled !

Want cheats? download trainers from the internet......

yes, it's up to the owner what they do, but have it flagged. One thing to bear in mind is that this is a site where the best players or players who play often go so the poll only really reflects their opinion, i'll vote yes for the little guy :)

noooooooo its far too tempting! id rather ge stuffed then cheat bt i always used to cheat on civ2. i know i know im a failure :(

For me the cheat mode is too much of a temptation when I wasn't doing well in a game. :blush:

I thought cheat mode was like Sim City with the Aliens and stuff. SHouldve read before voting :p

it kinda is, and that should be expanded as well

Cheats create a lazy attitude which the world does not need at this stage.

Afrikaners as a Civilization
Militaristic Industrious

Leaders:
Oom Paul Kruger (Male)
Johanna Brandt (Female)

Militaristic
Fanatic in war fare as they believe that they fight for the land God has given them. According to General Montgomery, the Afrikaners had the best Mounted Cavalry(Die Ruiters) since Genghis Khan and the Mongol Horde.

Industrious
SASOL was a brain child of General Hertzog and is today one of the foremost industrial corporations in the world regarding Steel, Oil and Fuel.

Unique unit
- Ruiter - An upgraded Cavalry unit (6.3.3?) – Industrial Age
- G6 Artillery – could have an extra range (?) – Modern Age
- Rooivalk Attack Helicopter – (?) – Modern Age

I think you got the wrong sub-forum :)

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! DONTDONTDONT BRING IT BACK NOOOO!!!!!! :cry:
SID!!!!... LISTEN TO MEEE!!!! :cry: it always ruined my games... its... its too tempteiting :cry: :cry:

Constantly getting 9999999 gold and then declaring war when my budget was something like 20000001 gold held me back a long time. People talk about 'Wonder addiction' - this is just as bad. Needless to say I voted no.

So your saying because someone doesn't have the will power to try winning legitimately those who can should be penalized?

How are players who try to win legitimately penalized by not having cheats? I must have seriously read your post wrong if that's what what you appear to be saying.

What I am saying is that players should ahve the cheat option and not be limited from it becasue soem people cannot try and enjoy the game legitimately as well. You should be able to choose whether you want to play legitimately and take a cheat break, or cheat all the time if that is what you like. Maybe it could be a feature whose activation secrets are only realised on these sites.

Plus, the 'cheats' would be highly valuable for testing mods and scenarios for people like myself...

As long as the cheat mode is single player only, i dont really care. But if it goes online i will be pissed.

Of course there should be a cheat mode. I don't cheat, but I play games for fun. If other people have fun by cheating, it only makes sense to allow cheat mode. This alone is a valid arguement, but then it would also help to test scenarios and mods, seeing how the A.I. handles new units. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

I've plays War3, which has cheats. Cheating in single player is fun, for just fooling around or seeing what the spells / units do. And, to see what the storyline is like in single player. (The Reign of Chaos storyline is actually quite good.) Obviously cheating is turned off in multiplayer...this is another no-brainer.

I don't know very much about programming...but from what I do know, allowing cheats is quite easy to implement. To give the player 1,000,000 gold would take 30 seconds to do.

You never know though. There was no cheating in socom in the beginning too. Now look were it stands. People find ways to cheat online. Hacks, etc. I say leave it out altogether so no one even has a chance of cheating online. But most people play single player only so.... screw it i agree with wakiki

Well, adding a cheat mode in single player wouldn'y increase the chance of hacking on multiplayer. The difficulty in "cheating" in ignle player is editing some hex numbers (I think) while the difficulty in cheating in multiplayer is hacking into the servers to edit the code, and then finding how not to get detected by the server.

Well, the pole pretty much states that EVERYONE thinks that they shouldnt bring back the cheats. lol (sarcastic) It is a very close poll.. But really, they Should add it, because people that want it.. .really want it ... people that voted no, most of them dont really care.

That is not true, AndrewH. I voted no, and I really mean NO, not I don't care. Cheats ultimately ruin games and peoples' enjoyment of the games.

Shudder... bring it back and you have my brother filling up my hall of fame with cheated victories... No thank you!

hmm, well you both proved me wrong then. I would rather see it out... i voted no

After this was posted, I created a same poll later but it showed up with much different results (out of 60votes):
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=110284

Dang... this one's a nail biter, the other, an obvious victor!

Cheat mode was valuable for other things besides cheating.

I can't remember if it was the cheat mode in Civ II or in Alpha Centauri, or both, but I remember I used to use it to help me plan where I was going to place my cities. I would do this without revealing the entire map--I'd only reveal the part that I knew--and I could experiment with what the map would look like if I destroyed certain cities and placed cities in certain locations.

After I'd figured out my "perfect" city layout, I'd save the game or do a screenshot and use it as a reference.

(And, of course, some other civ would then come along and mess up my perfect plan, but, hey, that's what the game's all about!)

The Cheatmode is essential for Scenariomaking and Testing. But i a normal game it shouldn't be used.

The Cheatmode is essential for Scenariomaking and Testing. But i a normal game it shouldn't be used.
Why? What if I want to see whats there and don't want to waste time playing?

I would do this without revealing the entire map--I'd only reveal the part that I knew--
:confused:

:confused:Maybe I'm confusing the cheat mode in Alpha Centauri with the cheat mode in Civ II. In AC, you could enter cheat mode without revealing the entire map. I don't recall whether you could do that in Civ II.

Well, the sentence was confusing. You didn't reveal the entire map, just the part that you knew. Umm... duh? Seems redundant. But in Civ II cheat mode you could reveal the entire map or only a specific tribe's map.

The cheatmode was fun to use once in a while so I would like to see it again. It is not like you have to use it so I don't see why people are opposed to it.

How does allowing a scenario maker the ability to add or subtract units, etc, on the fly "ruin the game"? Actually, it was absolutely vital and one of THE most complained about changes in vanilla Civ3. It was very, very, very time consuming to balance modern age mods because you had to play an entire game to get to those units.

I strongly agree with this.

Scenario makers don't need cheats to test the scenarios...

Scenario makers don't need cheats to test the scenarios...

In that you would be correct, but it certainly makes it easier.

So why not a debug mode, in which cheats are available for scen-makers? Quite honestly, I don't understand why you would want cheats for anything but scenario testing... Where's the intellectual challenge? Civ is supposed to ruling a nation! C'mon! Think! Games with cheats quickly become boring, because you can win with a few keystrokes.

If the cheat mode is again integral to the scenario creation, it will have to be there.

But I think there will be a new system for modding now...

:)

No, I think it takes the fun out of the game. There should be no cheat code.

Ah! Those who don't want cheat mode loss?

Will Firaxis respect the majority's interest?

Sorry to resurrect this one, but since Civ4 is coming soon, they better add cheats now

So far, there is very good reasons to put the cheat mode back :
- Scenario testing ("debug mode").
- Some people having fun with cheating.

And the only reasons against this cheat mode are simply people who want to force their own vision of the game upon others (ie : not a reason at all).
Nobody force you to cheat. If you don't want to, don't use it. But what gives you the right to decide for OTHERS how they will play ?
That's plain arrogance. Go deflate your head and ego, and mind your own business. I don't tell you how you should play, so don't do it to me.

Well, since they've said that you can start a nation at whatever era you like (one of the ways I used cheat mode in Civ II was to bring everyone up to the modern age for some fun tank on tank action), I see no need for a cheat mode.

Well, since they've said that you can start a nation at whatever era you like (one of the ways I used cheat mode in Civ II was to bring everyone up to the modern age for some fun tank on tank action), I see no need for a cheat mode.
Well, it's written in my message above :

- Test scenario.
- Have fun.

You'd think that the simpleness of the thing would be obvious to everyone, but seemingly no...

lolol.....well, looks like the pool are equal in both decisions....thats a dificult matter to decide =P....

Hmmm, I just made the 109 vote for 'no', putting that 1 ahead of the 'yes' vote :D

No, I think it takes the fun out of the game. There should be no cheat code.
So if *I* cheat, it takes the fun out of *YOUR* game ?

That's one of the most stupid argument I've ever seen :lol:

he doesn't meaned that, you know it.....he was saying that basically cheats ruin games....

AFAIK, there's an editor ("WorldBuilder") for making scenarios; but there's no 'Cheat Mode' ;) , so everyone should be happy.

The editor can mod your civs to be invincible, so no need for the cheat mode.

cheat mode is teh sUxXoRz.

Only the weak want it.

he doesn't meaned that, you know it.....he was saying that basically cheats ruin games....
And I was pointing that if *I* use, it won't damage *HIS* game. And AFAIK, I don't hold a loaded gun on his temple to force him to use the cheat mode.

So I ask : HOW does that CAN ruin the game ?
I mean, it only works for those who WANTS it, right ? So if someone doesn't like it, he just have to not use it.

So far, all the "arguments" against the cheat mode are idiotic "it ruins the game !", "cheating is not fun" and so on. Well, nobody FORCE them to cheat, so why do they care ?

Seems to me that they are simply so weak-willed that they are afraid to not be able to prevent themselves from using it. And because they aren't able to discipline themselves, they want to deprive everyone from a very useful feature. Bah, pathetic.
The editor can mod your civs to be invincible, so no need for the cheat mode.
If we can activate the editor during a game, then it actually acts like a cheat mode, and is all what is needed.

when you have the possibility of cheating so close to you, you feel inclined to use them to solve your dificult problems. That takes the playability of the game. Nobody said that you ruined my game if you use cheats on your game, but it ruins YOUR game.

In the other way, if you dont have cheats and want to solve the problems anyway you go to the help forums and expose your problem to the other, learning from their experience....

when you have the possibility of cheating so close to you, you feel inclined to use them to solve your dificult problems. That takes the playability of the game. Nobody said that you ruined my game if you use cheats on your game, but it ruins YOUR game.
I think I'm aged enough to know myself if my game has been ruined or not, or if I'll use cheats or not, thank you. I don't think anyone to come over a game I play and have fun, and say "no you're not having fun, your game has been ruined".

Only the weak want it.

That reminds me of one of the cheat codes from one of the Simcities: ctrl+c, and type "i am weak" to get free zoning and roads. I used that one a few times.

I think the cheat mode should be in. If not a cheat mode, an easy way of saving a game, modding it (giving yourself 50 tanks etc.) and playing from there. I don't think I would use it often - but just to experience different things.

What cheat mode? What is a cheat?

I think I'm aged enough to know myself if my game has been ruined or not, or if I'll use cheats or not, thank you. I don't think anyone to come over a game I play and have fun, and say "no you're not having fun, your game has been ruined".

No Problem Akka, i'm glad you have age enough to do that. It's obvious that neither I nor you are going to give up our statements because of this dialogue, even if it last forever. So, i think the solution is to settle this matter and stop being repeatedly boring...

Wow its tied right now, 120 - 120. Anyways... Cheatmode should come back I think. It makes the game a lot of fun for some people. If it was in, you could use the cheats if you wanted to and you could just ignore them if you didn't. No harm done, both sides are happy...

Well this discussion is completely moot: "Since the world builder can be launched at any time during a game, players can "add rivers, place tiles, resources, roads, improvements, cities, units, and nearly anything else that appears on a map," says Barry Caudill in his second Developer Diary."

So there that should make everyone happy. There is no "cheat mode" because it's now called "world builder". ;)

Man what a ridiculous discussion this has been. The very fact it will be so mod friendly means that, of course, you'd be able to change anything at any time. It annoyed the heck out of me when they changed Civ 3 so you couldn't change things in saved games because I'd always forget to mod something the way I liked it and wouldn't discover it until late in the game when the unit or whatever became available. Of course, I wound up editing the files anyway once I found the file format info. Even if it's not mod friendly, the fact the files and code our on your machine means you'll always be able to "cheat", it's just a matter of how much effort.

"You shouldn't be allowed to cheat because I don't like it and I know what's right for everyone", it's just this kind of thinking that gets us things like DRM and laws against drugs and pornography. :)

"You shouldn't be allowed to cheat because I don't like it and I know what's right for everyone", it's just this kind of thinking that gets us things like DRM and laws against drugs and pornography.

Amen brother!

We can see that YES and NO options are both very popular...

Maybe an option in game settings to let it appear or not could be a solution? If someone wants to play honest, he can. If someone wants to use cheats to play or create scenarios, he can. All satisfied, no problem anymore!

"world builder" does not cheat (e.g. allow one to start playing with a reveal map), so basically it is for those who is not clever enough to enjoy a cheat mode game... or those who play a game not for fun but for virtue


There is no "cheat mode" because it's now called "world builder". ;)
...


There is no "cheat mode" because Firaxis is going to put that in an expansion 3 months after Civ4 is out and make their money 1 more round.
The expansion title "Civ4: The Cheat"

Don't get cheated

No Problem Akka, i'm glad you have age enough to do that. It's obvious that neither I nor you are going to give up our statements because of this dialogue, even if it last forever. So, i think the solution is to settle this matter and stop being repeatedly boring...
The only difference is that I have a good reason for wanting a cheat mode (being fun for some, and above all allowing extensive modding and testing), while the anti-cheat-mode have NO real argument (the only being "I don't want to cheat, so everyone should be deprived of it", which is a big zero argument).

Anyway, as it has been pointed, the world builder include anything that is necessary, so the point is moot, and modders of the world can rejoice and be reassured that some "I can't help myself to cheat if I can so let's punish everyone for that" didn't got their chance to ruin the game for everyone else :p
Man what a ridiculous discussion this has been. The very fact it will be so mod friendly means that, of course, you'd be able to change anything at any time. It annoyed the heck out of me when they changed Civ 3 so you couldn't change things in saved games because I'd always forget to mod something the way I liked it and wouldn't discover it until late in the game when the unit or whatever became available.
Gosh, so true... How many games were ruined because of a single space left in one of the unit's description file, or a ";" rather than a "," or other tiny little things that crashed the game and forced to restart from scratch each time...

God how I hated Firaxis for this stupid modification !

I think I posted on this thread in the past, but I'm all for bringing it back. I liked giving the enemy every advantage he could get. This is a little OT, but did anyone else like the advisors in Civ 2?

I think that a cheat mode shopuld be added, however the game will not be scored, and that game could not be submitted, I know at times, believe it or not, Civ to some, can get a little well, drawn out. So this might get a wider fan base in, who would then discover the fun of civ eventually without cheats, and for others it would open them just to the civ experience.

Cheats should never be allowed in Multi-player games!!! I stress this very much.


Mathias

Since the World Builder can be launched at any time during a game, players can "add rivers, place tiles, resources, roads, improvements, cities, units, and nearly anything else that appears on a map," says Barry Caudill in his second Developer Diary. He also goes on to say that, "Players can determine which buildings are in the cities, how many people live in any city, what each city is producing, what each Civ has researched. They can also establish who is at war and each AI’s attitude toward every other Civ.

It is very important to the modding community that a Debugging Mode be included, so you can switch off the FoW (otherwise known as the "Fog of War") and watch how the AI behaves and plays.

Sid Meier's Civilization IV: Pre-release Information (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/)


[party]It's Decided! [party]

Cheat mode is coming back! Placed in the form and implementation of the World Builder and a Debugging Mode. I really do think it was a good idea to not only bring this back, but change the name. I think a lot of people got the wrong idea.

I was myself going to have this be one of my first mods to the game once the SDK was released (since it would certainly require that level of interface). Nice, I can concentrate on a few other interesting ideas I've had once the SDK comes out.

This is very good news indeed. I wonder if a mod couldn't put a symbolic vote into the poll for Firaxis? :goodjob:

Flak:
I was myself going to have this be one of my first mods to the game once the SDK was released


Well you could still mod in a messagebox that appears when someone opens the WorldBuilder. The message could be:


Every time you cheat, God kills a kitten.


Maybe that'll satisfy the people who are so against 'cheat mode'.

The only difference is that I have a good reason for wanting a cheat mode (being fun for some, and above all allowing extensive modding and testing), while the anti-cheat-mode have NO real argument (the only being "I don't want to cheat, so everyone should be deprived of it", which is a big zero argument).


The question here, thinking abstractely, is a battle between liberty and control. The point is to give or not much or less importance to the fact that someone cheats. In a more protective perspective, if someone cheats it will cause reactions on other players, like jealows or even unfair competition. Of course all of this is a question of giving or not importance to that fact, but , giving an example, what if everyone decided from this moment to now on tell only lies to each other? Nobody says that its forbiden, but certainly it won't be such usefull

I'm afraid, in my opion, that i strongly disagree with you that the anti-cheat concept has zero or little arguments. Every concept has arguments. So it's wrong to say that this one has no arguments at all, just because you don't understand or you don't acept the argument.

. . . Every concept has arguments. So it's wrong to say that this one has no arguments at all, just because you don't understand or you don't acept the argument.I think we're starting to drift off topic, but certainly you aren't claiming that all arguments are equal? Some arguments, quite simply, suck, and can therefore be legitimately characterized as "non-arguments." :p

Sorry for distancing the matter at hand, but i think all arguments are equal: none are better or worse than the other, they are just on diferent perspectives. How can you know, for instance, that your convictions and the concepts you think that are correct are truly the best, if someone else tells you the contrary? What is the prove that you have that your concepts are the right ones, and the other "sucks"?

I'm afraid, in my opion, that i strongly disagree with you that the anti-cheat concept has zero or little arguments. Every concept has arguments. So it's wrong to say that this one has no arguments at all, just because you don't understand or you don't acept the argument.


Sorry for distancing the matter at hand, but i think all arguments are equal: none are better or worse than the other, they are just on diferent perspectives.


From my own concept or perspective which unfortunately is different from yours, (my argument is the same with Akka's) - *the anti-cheat concept has zero or little arguments

Would you want to treat my argument as equally or differently?

It does not matter what is your answer, since according to your own statement saying all arguments are equal, it then is easy to conclude that, your argument which argues that "someone has a wrong argument" is wrong

Since your argument is wrong and mine/Akka's is right, so not all arguments are equal!

Please, continue argue...

Cheat mode should be brought back. Really, it was a great help when you still were in Chieftain.

I suspect that players who cheat to win at Chieftain are actually slowing down their progress through the skill levels.

I suspect that players who cheat to win at Chieftain are actually slowing down their progress through the skill levels.



I learned many AI strategies with the cheat mode, so I could face AI civs better.

There should be a cheat that takes away cheats from AI! So we can play in Deity mode and stand a chance.

I suspect that players who cheat to win at Chieftain are actually slowing down their progress through the skill levels.
Well, and then so what ?

Since your argument is wrong and mine/Akka's is right, so not all arguments are equal!


The argument is wrong for you...but it's right for other people. So who's got the reason? Basically nobody, because discussions aren't made for winning or losing, but to expose the two ideals.

The argument is wrong for you...but it's right for other people. So who's got the reason? Basically nobody, because discussions aren't made for winning or losing, but to expose the two ideals.

Expose ideas in a discussion is one thing, having a reasonable ground in one's argument is another, all normal human being has common sense. Every one can have different opinion, but that does not mean every opinion is reasonable. There are just mindless opinion which does not has any reason behind to support it. i.e. the right for everyone to put forward their idea in this forum is equal, but that does not mean all arguments are equal, some simply has no reasoning, like yours.

Btw, the anti-cheat mode party has zero reasoning behind their argument. Do you sense that?

Even Hitler had arguments, so don't say that anti-cheat don't has....

Just because you think it is not reasonable, it don't means that it is, because this is an opinion, that's all.

Even Hitler had arguments, ....


I assume you mean the historical character that I hate the most, ya he is as mindless.

Definately a mindless for you, or maybe for much of us, but still he was elected by his ideals in the past. So there's a proof that today one thing can be wrong, and tomorrow that same thing can be right...

Man, this is becoming downright ridiculous to embarassing extend... -_-

Okay, Comrade Pedro and hclass: This is the point where both of you stop with your discussion. Get back on topic.

Let's make things clear: this is only a GAME!

Let's make things clear: this is only a GAME!

Agree!
Let the game be fun and so speaks the title of this thread!

if anyone want to cheat - he can use a trainer.

Sigh...

If you don't want to use cheats, THEN DON'T, DAMN IT! The cheats are an added feature to the game, and you can cheat just as much in the scenario editor by giving yourself a lot of advantages and the A.I. a lot of disadvantages. It is pretty freakin' simple, include a cheat mode and cheaters like myself can use it and purists like you others ones can not.

I beg all of you my apologies if i break the forum rules. Sorry if i onfended anyone.

If some one doesn't like cheats, the don't use them. Why impose your ideology on others who want to try out different situations in the game ASAP.

It seems there are a number of different personalities:

1) People who don't want cheats, broken down into
1A) People will not play with cheats even if they're in
1A1) These people don't want cheat mode to exist
1A2) These people do want cheat mode to exist
1A3) These people don't care if there is a cheat mode
1B) People who consider themselves 'weak' who want to play without cheats but know they can't resist the temptation if it's in

2) People who do want cheats, broken down into
2A) People want to cheat because they think it makes for a more fun game
2B) People want to cheat to more easily win
2C) People want to cheat to learn

If cheating is out, the people who do want it are unhappy and if it's in, the 'weak' people are unhappy. I'd say, throw it in and for the 1B) people: work on your will power, maybe Civanon can help :)

You've forgotten probably the largest group, and arguably the most important group, who want this mode besides perhaps those in 2A: those of us who interested in modding the game and looking for fast powerful methods of testing those modifications quickly and efficiently. I believe that is the major reason Firaxis has decided that this mode not only be back in, but be very easily accessible. They're basically sowing the fields for customization, and probably hoping to reap the benefits of that customization later on.

If Civ II is any good example (a game whose vanilla version was wonderfully moddable), then as long as the vanilla version of Civ IV is solid, I think they will indeed profit quite a lot from having this back in.

I'm a 2C usually when I get a game then 1A2/2B after I learn the game ok but all depending on my mood. When learning a game like this, I like to see all the units on the board to get used to them and test their attacks against other units. Helps me learn the units.

I'm a programmer and sometimes I get home and my brain's pretty well fried from work (like today). Sometimes, I just want to blow stuff up. Sometimes I just want to type "~god" and pull out your BFG2K and blow the crap out of something. I think the nukes will be nice for this. But if my brain isn't fried, I actually do enjoy the challenge and play sans-cheat. I don't think it removes anything from the games that I do not cheat in to have games that I do.

I see the reasoning for 1B, but find it ill informed and maybe a little selfish. There will be cheats anyways, might as well have them come from a legit place. Sometimes I'm a 1B and I've found myself buying the super-coffee regularly when I played TS1.

But 1A1's don't make sense. You're not going to use the feature but it will add enjoyment to others. That's just plain selfish. Maybe you could probably deal with just having them in a less noticable place than on the main menu. Maybe there could be a code people would have to type in that they would have to find on the Internet? "Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A"? I think that would be ok by me. (And you wouldn't have to know about it.)

One thing I think everyone agreed on is no multi-player cheating (or at least everyone is "out loud"). Needless to say, I voted yes.

Never used cheat mode before, probs wont use it in civ4, i just like to watch the game unfold how it was made.

gah....Poeple are to goody, goody. As long as it can't be used in multiplayer and as long as people aren't being forced to use it what's the harm? Just another feature in the game no worse then tweaking your options before game start.
I mean there is going to be some perverse pleasure of taking on an uppity 1400 AD civilization with Navy SEALS, and marines backed by the Airforce. MWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Who cares its just a game.... And definetly agree as long as "its not used in multiplayer game" let people do what ever they want....