View Full Version : Mutual Proctection..Do you sign on or not?
Nov 08, 2001, 12:18 PM
This is my question. When are the mutual protection pacts ever any good? I have yet to see them do any thing good for me. Everytime I sign on..the fool goes and gets himself into a war and I have to go into the fray when I don't wanna! This wouldn't be so bad but the AI pick horrible targets usually. The AI goes after other civs who have these damned pacts and the next thing you know I am in WWIII! It seems if you don't come and help your alledged ally, he makes peace and then signs pact against you! Even with the other Civs he declared war on! Jerk.
Has anybody had a good experience? I like to wage war..but on my own terms. Does anybody use these pacts?
Nov 08, 2001, 12:28 PM
I use them quite frequently.
Before I do, I make sure I am prepared to end a war against another civ in 20 turns or less.
They expire in 20 turns so I'll give a quick run down of what I do..
Turn 1 Sign mutual protection pact with say France.
Turn 2 Go to war with another civ say England.
Turn 2 or 3 Sign a military alliance against England with France if they didn't declare war.
We are both at war with England and although they will get some cities, I always have a better culture so I sometimes assimilate the cities France got from England into my culture.
The war is always finished in less than 20 turns. In this case, England was the most powerful and we took them out in 10 turns. It took me 5 turns to get London.
Did the same thing last game against the Romans with the Egyptians who were "allied" with the Romans. Egypt didn;t do anything in the opening round of war and I paid them to join me. The AI has a REAL hard time fighting two fronts.
Hope this answered your questions.
Nov 08, 2001, 12:32 PM
You need to be carefull on who you sign a mutual protection act with. Here are some things to consider.
- Does that country have an adequate military to defend itself?
- Does that country have the means to actually help you?
- Is that country internationaly refuted?
- Do YOU have the military power to actually act in times of war?
- Do you have a military that can defend itself in war?
Its an equation that you have to work out on your own. You need to really "think" about the benefits. Are you really ever in danger of being invaded? Do you have enemies? Has an enemy grown substatntialy more powerful?
Nov 08, 2001, 12:42 PM
Mutual protect also gets you votes in the UN, if you are into that.
I've heard about the entire world declaring war on you if you nuke someone...in one game I signed a mutual protection pack with two of the three nations on a continent and proceeded to surprise nuke (no declaration of war, no nothing...just your friendly splitting atoms) the other one. Both nations that I'd signed the pack with immediately went to war and started gobbling up the other ones irradiated land.
Also, establish embassies with everyone around the person that you might be signing the pact with, make sure they aren't already at war and make sure that the other nations don't already have pacts...If England comes to you for a pact, but Germany, Russia, and France are already allied (being Englands neighbors) you might want to think about it...England could be coming to you because they are getting ready to be attacked.
Nov 08, 2001, 01:39 PM
On medium difficulty, huge pangea world, as Babylonians, I have a great game going and I used Mutual Protection alliances and it worked Perfectly. I was ahead in science, sold it all for cash to everyone in the same turn so I would get tons of cash. Then got Mutual Protection with Japan, Zulu, and Chinese (cost some money). Then I declared war on Greece and sacked Sparta the same turn. Next turn Japan, Zulu and Chinese all declared war on Greece. China pulled the Egyptians into Military Alliance aginst Greece. and Egyptians declared war. I made MA with half the contenders.
Now greece is almost dead, and my ultimate goal was to have all the alliances in my favor so we can turn on Rome,who's been a pain in my ass the whole game. Rome also has that lovely saltpeter just two squares from one of my cities.
Only problem is the Indians on the other side of the map are fighting with everyone too and diverting the AI's attention away from Greece. This is oklay since I get all the cities, but I have no way to get to India to honor my mutual protection.
Nov 08, 2001, 02:25 PM
Hmm..Thanks all. Great suggestions.
I guess I will look into signing on again. I guess I will pick better buddies.
Nov 08, 2001, 02:38 PM
Yes, I've had a highly successful instance with a mutual protection pact. I had the Egyptians to one side and the Romans to another; Egypt went to war with Rome and then asked for a pact. I sat there for about 5 minutes contemplating (seriously), and then decided to go with it because:
-I was closer to Rome than the Egyptians, I could go snatch some cities before they got there and joined in on the fight with reinforcements
-I was more advanced than both civs so I was pretty confident I could be successful in a war
-I didn't care about wiping Rome off the face of the earth, just pushing them back some
-It gave me an excuse to go to war and put some live ammo in the hands of soldiers who were just sitting around
-My culture was very strong (I'll explain in a minute)
-The geography of the situation lent itself to great success with my culture
-The Egyptians asked for the pact *AFTER* they were at war. So I knew what I was getting into. If it had been before, I might not have done it, or worse, be still sitting thinking about it.
The result was this: I captured 2 cities (yes just 2), but this is where the geography came into play. It split their empire in half, with the Egyptians taking both other halves. BUT, with my strong culture, the other cities switched over to me not soon after. I gained control of 7 total cities from the Romans (some after Egyptian occupation) and 2 more from Egypt's own empire because of my new far-reaching influence grew very quickly.
This is a very specific instance of success with the pact. Be very careful in considering what you're getting yourself into. Most of the time they're more trouble than they're worth. The computer uses them to their advantage, as you will often see.
Nov 08, 2001, 05:02 PM
I enjoy using them to start wars on distant continents that I have very little contact with. I'm playing on the large Earth map, and I own Africa & the middle east. The Persians, the Iroquois, and the Zulus cover North & South America between them. I've never even had a unit over there, and don't trade much with any of them. I'm going to use diplomacy to get the three of them fighting each other, and just watch and see what happens. :goodjob:
Man, it's fun playing the manipulator.
Nov 08, 2001, 10:44 PM
I've found that if you share a continent with 2 competent civilizations, it's a good idea as long as you keep up militarily. It gets you into war -- but it gets you into a war where you've got an ally. By "competent" I mean not as powerful as you, but fairly close.
If nothing else, it keeps them from signing one between themselves. In fact, I believe that if you have an MPP with A, AND an MPP with B, then if A attacks B you go to war with A, and if B attacks A you go to war with B. So if 3 civs all have MPP's with each other, whoever attacks 1 civ, attacks 2 civs. So sign with both and don't attack.
With four or more civs, well, it gets complicated. ;)
Nov 08, 2001, 11:35 PM
The mutual protection pacts are one of the additions to Civ3 that I really, really love. It makes the whole game take on an aspect of pre-WW1 diplomatic conditions. And then.......the slightest little scuffle goes on between two nations, and then the whole world is at war.
Still, as said above you have to be careful what your getting into.
Typically, I'll use these alliances to single out a country i WANT to go to war with. I'll get a protection pact with all the nations surrounding that one. That Way, I won't have to look like a warmongering bastard who strikes out of the blue. Ive had four (4!!!) civs all team up against one. At this point, the challenge of fighting becomes less trying to stay alive, and more a speed race while trying to beat your allies to the plunders of war. It CAN backfire, though, like when some other random CIv that I had no ambition to fight attacks my ally.
Anyway got aquestion that some of you might be knowledgeable on:
1.) There are 6 total rival Civs, and the world is at complete peace. You make a pact with EVERY nation. Is this even possible? has anyone done it? what the heck happened when the smoke cleared?
Nov 12, 2001, 09:56 AM
I made MPP with all nation in the world and then started attack. In 3 turns every nation was in a war with all others. Wild West. "Keep your a$$ safe" game. It didn't finished yet, but in this situatuin you can attack any nation without painful penalty and take whatever you want or can. Everybody in the world make their main strategic game, so if you keep your attacks to minimum (get some useful resources etc), nobody will attack you, because AI for every nation is busy thinking about how to defend in the war with 7 civs. I suggest to use this approach when you have all your cities railroad-connected and your military is strong enough to wipe out possible attackers on your tarritory. 2 strong mobile groups for each continent with artilery support is just enough .
Nov 12, 2001, 12:58 PM
World wars can very much happen. I finished my first game -finally understood enough :cool: - and I saw a lot of fun like that. The first war was easy. Zululand had war declared on them by Russia, then England, then Babylon. I said, lets join the party. I take over most of Zululand. This puts me at parity for city count with the largest player. Only 2 cities are not mine. Of course, one of those is Hlobane (Coal & Iron & Rubber!).
Later on the pacts start getting signed. Russia and England vs. France (me), Germany, Babylon and Iroquis. The Iroquis never make a dent. However, it is a land rush by the other civs. I had troops marching toward a city, and suddenly the color changes. Arrggggggggggggg :mad:
It is great though. I use to play the ultimate peacenik in Civ2 and then spy my way to everything. Much more of a challenge here. Even something as simple as building a wonder comes with a risk. I love it.:love:
Nov 20, 2001, 12:21 PM
In one game of mine, I was the Chinese on a pangea. I was invading France, and doing pretty well. England asks for an alliance with me against them, and a right of passage as well. So I agree, next thing I know, England signs alliances with everybody else against France and the whole world is all there, and also, for the rest of the game, even after France is gone, I have dozens of English units patrolling my kingdom. If I annoyed them, I would have been toast.
Nov 20, 2001, 12:35 PM
One thing I've noticed is that when you are attacked, the countries you have signed a mutual defense pact with will declare war with your enemy on the *next* turn.
This can be used to your advantage. If someone declares war on you, do whatever it takes to get a mutual defense pact signed with their nearest rival. If the enemy borders you, pick someone on the opposite side of them.
I did this in a recent game, playing as the Persians. I built up a huge military early, but got sloppy in the midgame as I built all the cultural improvements. My military staffing was behind.
The Zulus decided I was ripe for the taking. They held land on the opposite side of the continent from me, and the Babylonians sat in the middle. The Zulus brought a bunch of troops through Babylonian space and sat near my border.
I didn't like the looks of it, so I sent out a couple undefended warriors to gauge their intentions. The Zulus attacked, and the war was on.
I immediately pressed the Babylonians for a defense pact. They declared war the next turn, and slammed right through all the the Zulu troops that were strung out from my border to Zululand. I had enough intel info to see how many troops were en route, and it wouldn't have been pretty if they'd made it to me. As it turned out, only a couple units snuck through.
Lessons learned: Don't let your military fall behind. If someone goes after you, get a friend right away, since they'll still declare war on your behalf the next turn.
Nov 20, 2001, 01:07 PM
Here's three situations I found MPP useful in my games.
1) Deterrent - I'm on my way to space race win as Persia and don't want war. China and France are only two real powers left and have MPP. Their combined military is better than mine and I would have hard time fighting both if they formed alliance. I sign MPP with France which prevents France from attacking and China will have war with me and France if they start hostilities. This was a good enough deterrent and I launch ship in peace.
2) Protection - Another game as Persia, I'm the 2nd most powerful nation of 3 left. Aztecs are far and away dominant military with a whole continent conquered and I dread them landing transports full of modern armor on my shores as I try for space ship win. That and they were close to a domiation victory and couldn't let them run all over Zulus. Sign MPP with Zulus to ward off possible attack, launch ship in peace.
3) Resources - England is most technologically advanced and a threat to my win, but has no oil. I want to keep it that way, but don't want to be one who starts war. Iroquois is their neighbor and has tons of oil, but very weak. Sign MPP w/ Iroquois as their protector to prevent England from getting oil. England goes for the resource, I get involved in war and take England out before they get it and start building modern units. England reduced to non-factor and I go on to launch ship.
Here's a case of MPP backfiring - signed MPP with France & Iroquois to try to position myself for diplo victory. France is my best trading partner and gracious towards me. That is, until they declare war on Iroquois and they suddenly become my enemy when I'm forced into war because of MPP with Iroquois. Ruined friendship from MPP without specific purpose. Doh!
Always have an explicit reason like above before entering MPP or you WILL be in a war you don't want.
Nov 23, 2001, 01:20 AM
Omg they can be funny, The Entire World is in one MPP aginst india
Nov 23, 2001, 04:56 AM
All this mutual protection pact is. bullsh... I had this one with English. They, in turn, had this with Germans. When I started the war with Germans my foes declared war on me!
Nov 23, 2001, 07:56 AM
Now I know why some countries always stay neutral. MPP's suck if you dont use them correctly. I just finished my first game/win. However, the entire 1800's was filled with war after 1 --- count it --- 1 --- MPP was initiated by the Greeks. Then it was like dominos. In the end it was eight versus three and I was one of the three. Needless to say Militarily and Industrially I was number one, and my allies were like 4 and 5 in bother realms so after a few Right of Passages with my allies... ironfang
Nov 27, 2001, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Crist2000
All this mutual protection pact is. bullsh... I had this one with English. They, in turn, had this with Germans. When I started the war with Germans my foes declared war on me!
I could be mistaken but I believe the trick is to get the Germans to make the first attack. I don't think declaring war triggers the MPP, but the first attack, you know, that "but he hit me first" mentatlity.
The other possible good side is just being bombed by a country isn't enough to trigger the MPP in their favor. For example, I was trading with the Babs who happened to have a MPP with Russia who had declared war on me and was bombing my land improvements. I was never forced into war with the Babs and our trade agreements were never interrupted.
Nov 27, 2001, 03:06 PM
Here's where the variation on diplomacy in Civ3 gets fun...
4 civs in this situation: Me (French), Americans, Germans, English.
Year: 1375 AD
As France, I have Central Europe, Turkey, the Near East and the northern half of Africa.
The Americans are split, with 4 large cities in Spain, and the rest in Scandinavia.
The English occupy the Middle East on through India and the southwest border of China, with some expansion into Indonesia.
The Germans have been pushed up into northwestern Russia.
About 150 years ago, I attacked the Americans to grab a few key cities they had along my border. I have a strong culture, but they had adjacent cities that I wanted for strategic purposes to smooth out my frontiers. I nabbed a few of their key cities to lock up Europes except for west of the Pyrennes. In my attack, I set up alliances with a number of other nations against the Americans. Well... *my* goals were achieved in about 5 moves, so I signed a peace treaty, and left the other civs to contain the Americans.
Only problem is, 100 years later, the English have now made major strides against the Americans, capturing 13 cities and just razed their capital.
Here's the trick, my original objective in attacking the Americans was to isolate their Spain holdings, so that I could culturally assimilate them. (I've got them totally surrounded by high culture cities and I have 10 metropolis cities in WLKD at this point.) They're going to flip -- it's simply a matter of time.
However, the English are now pushing the new American capital in Finland. If they take it, the capital will move back down to Spain, and I'll no longer have the assimilation opportunity.
Now, I don't really want to go to war with England at the moment. My forces are stretched rather thin, since I just gave a pounding to the Germans about 6 moves ago, (grabbed Berlin and 5 other cities in about 4 turns!) and am kicking myself since my assault on the Germans basically encouraged them to sign the alliance against the Americans. If I were still at war with them, they wouldn't have opened up the second front. If I hadn't attacked them at all, they wouldn't need the land.
So... what to do? The problem is, I want to protect the Americans, but not with an MPP, because I don't want to take on the English at the moment. (I'm waiting for Tanks and Rails.)
My solution: Shore up the English border cities with decent protection. Sign a Right-of-Passage with the Americans. Move every unit of Cavalry I can get into the American lands and cut off the English advance by just placing the units. The English can't move against the Americans because to reach them, they have to attack my units. They won't do that, because my counter will pound their border cities into dog snot, and they'll lose all that they've gained so far. I can't force the English into a peace settlement, but I *can* get in the way of their advance, so that's what I'm doing.
I've surrounded the American capital with my troops, so that the English can't advance to it. They're scurrying around on their side of the border trying to figure out what to do. The Americans are getting time to recover, and I'm their new best friend (which should make the assimilation happen easier.)
I'll keep this thread posted on the outcome. Hopefully the result will be what I want. If so, this is truly an awesome game. :)
Nov 27, 2001, 05:32 PM
This is not necessarily about the MPP but on a recent game i had there were 3 civilizations left with mine being the most productive. I had a right of passage with both of them and the whole world was railroaded. I go into military economy mode, build up about 10 tactical and 8 icbm nukes made a crapload of modern armor and proceeded to move a stack of 4-5 next to all the major cities they had. Then when i felt its time, I unleashed all hell on them, making their spaceship-making capitals the priority targets. Needless to say I totally demolished them and their reprisal was weak to say the least. Most of their artillery/airforces where out, most nukes captured and destroyed, and I had a domination victory within 10 turns. They did try to nuke me back twice, but thanks to the Missile Defense Shield they couldn't do squat. SUCKERS!!
Nov 27, 2001, 06:15 PM
The Mutual Pact is really only good for two things as I can see it. To either form an ally for an engagement you plan for a date within the near future (before 10 turns. This can be very useful against another "coalition" or simply a much stronger nation), or to form a pact with a ring of nations that will ensure your protection.
I find signing pacts when the AI ask me for one is usually only to the AI's benefiet as they usually will be attacked by the enemy within those 20 turns.
The Mutual Pact should change in priority as ages change. In the ancient/medievel stage turns pass so quickly that mutual protection pacts can be dropped before any engament occurs, sometimes. In the Industrial/Modern every turn can mean a difference so MPP's should only be undertaken after some deliberation over the effects it will have on your nation.
You set the mandate! don't ever follow a "friendly" AI blindly. You set your own goals and your own treaties and everything will fall into your interests.
Nov 27, 2001, 06:29 PM
I avoid MPPs and Alliances because it limits my ability to negotiate peace. I try to make my wars quick, especially because I'm using a Democracy. There doesn't appear to be a way for an Alliance to negotiate peace with a common enemy (is there?). Seems like there should be a way to do this, but since I haven't found it, I tend to avoid MPPs and Alliances altogether.
Nov 29, 2001, 04:03 AM
I will only ask for MPP's if I can get two or more Civs to join me in it. If it's just me and one other, when war breaks out it'll just be ugly. With two allies it's a little easier. Sometimes you can honor the MPP but just sit back and watch, taking maybe a couple key cities.
Nov 29, 2001, 10:39 PM
first of all, great posts, lots of good requirements of when to sign.
In my current game (huge map, continents, max civs ) the whole world has been ripped apart due to my not-so-nice ways of getting resources i need. Im the Babylonians and i have the tech advantage and i found i had no oil or rubber inside my borders. But there were deposits of each in territory held in Iroquoi and Indian territory. They were relativly easy takes and i proceeded to modernize my army. The Iroquoi were quite a ways away and not a problem. the Indians, while not militarily powerfull, managed to bring in a few other civs in subsequent turns. Even my immediate neighbors, the romans, signed a trade embargo against me.
Looking to relieve some pressure i made a pact with the Zulus ( had to give quite a bit ). Once they were on my side they brought the Germans, Romans, and Aztecs into the war as well.
Everyone else is involed in one way or another and im pleased with throwing the world into chaos for my own gains :)
Nov 29, 2001, 10:47 PM
I usually will sign a MPP with 2 civilizations that already have one with eachother, also Right of passage, and trading. This ensures they will not declare war on eachother, Righ now as the Germans I am allied with the Russians and English, and they are with eachother.
Nov 30, 2001, 12:32 AM
something else I noticed about MPP.. in my current game, I'm the most powerful civ on earth (like my power histograph is ~ 2x that of the strongest AI civ...), and I have MPP with 2 of the weaker civs (france and england). What I noticed is that, unlike my previous games, world wars 1..10 didn't break out when nationalism appeared. No one attacked me, nor my 2 allies (wow! the AI actually saw they had MPP with me so they didn't attack them!)... So it kinda kept the world mostly peaceful...
I guess it also depends on the civs that are present in the world (here it was Germany - me! - England, France, India - beaten to 1 city only by me - , Russia - destroyed by me, China, Egypt *those two MPP with each other*, zulu, persia, rome, iroquois). The only wars that broke out after I crushed the Indians was between Egypt/China and Iroquois... Nothing more really. Egypt got France into it (probably hoping hte MPP would get me involved so I could crush iroquois?), but they never got attacked and peace returned..
all this to say they can be useful into maintaining relative peace, or to create endless world wars :)
Dec 03, 2001, 01:16 AM
How about this?
I'm Germany....far ahead in culture but lagging a bit militarily. In fact, England is starting to run away with things in the Power department. Unfortunately, I can't attack England head on (suicide) and asking others to attack England is pretty futile.
So what do I do? England, with their superior military (in size, not in tech) is running all over my territory in order to reach Russia and China, so I keep asking them EVERY turn to leave my territory. Gradually they get more and more peeved, and once they reach "annoyed", I sign MPPs with France, Rome, and Egypt (at a fairly heavy, but manageable, cost). Next turn? Ask England to leave my territory, they say no and attack me.
Now the Russia/China vs. England has turned into Russia/China/Rome/France/Egypt/Germany vs. England. Amazingly it didn't kill them, but it definitely brought them back in line with everyone else...and I got 3 cities out of it too :)
Dec 03, 2001, 04:38 AM
One time I was 3rd in power, and I saw the Iroquois (#1) build a huge military force just outside my border. I definately did not want a war at that time, as the city they were outside was my scienitfic center with Newton's and Copernicus. I contacted Hiawatha and negotiated a MPP, the troops turned around and went home.
Dec 30, 2001, 01:26 PM
I played a game not too long ago as the Germans in which Mutual Protection Pacts served me well. I started off on a continent by myself, to the south were the Babylonians and French who shared one of their own, but decided that wasn't good enough so did that annoying thing where they build cities in every nook and cranny of your continent. I got ticked off so war ensued and I expelled them from my continent.
Babylong had a higher culture value than me so I had to starve the cities I took from them to one and razed one of them, thereby making them bitter as hell. Soon after the French built another city on one free square in my north where there was absolutely nothing of any value so I had hoped no one would build there. I went to war and drove them off, Babylon joined them, then so did Rome (the most powerful country on the planet).
The French and the Romans launched an invasion at a very confusing point, confusing because it served no strategic value whatsoever. I beat them back eventually and managed to grab an important American colony (turned out to have coal and rubber) on an island off my coast.
I made peace eventually and the world was well (except I managed to make a rift between France and Babylon and war ravaged their border landscape). I was approaching the technology to build Panzers so I was strategizing an invasion of France followed by an invasion of Babylon. Originally I planned to attack Babylon but then they cozied up to me and signed a mutual protection pact with me, so I changed plans to attack France.
My attack on France was a stunning success and I was quickly in a position to invade Babylon. Babylon must have been aware of my two-pronged invasion as they signed multiple protection pacts with other powers (Russia, Japan and China). I signed my own Mutual Protection Pacts with Russia, America and China (as Russia depended on me for all its war materials and China and I had a long time good standing relationship) and declared war on Babylon. I landed my forces on their northern shore and moved my armies accross their southern border and waited for them to attack me. They did and Russia and China honoured their pact with me and declared war on Babylon, thereby stabbing them in the back.
Japan and I had been involved in wars for a long time so I had no qualms about renewing our battles, but then I also enlisted Rome (still the most powerful on the world) and a massive world war ensued that lasted through the space race and beyond.
Babylon fell and Japan conquered its neighbour, America. My coalition then invaded Japan and ravaged the nation, Japan saw itself isolated with almost its entire infrastructure destroyed. The coalition razed and destroyed all the former American cities and many Japanese cities, thereby debilitating them.
Peace settled in eventually (much slower for the rest of the world). I came out of it all as the richest, most powerful nation with the greatest culture on the planet... But then Rome surprise attacked me and the world really got weird then.
Dec 31, 2001, 04:58 AM
I generally sign a MPP with a particular nation to prevent them from declaring war on me if I have plans to attack one of their neighbours. And, as a rule, I regret doing it every time. :)
I wish when signing the deal, I could choose how many turns it lasted for (with a minumum of say.. 5, to be fair.) Ditto goes for trade agreements.
Dec 31, 2001, 11:59 AM
Never sign when the AI asks, bc they do it for their advantage.
Also, sign MPPs with extreme care. I was just out of a 20 turn war under democracy, so the folks were right over the line.
Then, my MPP ducked me: I was brought to that war again, and now I can't even negotiate peace. Well, since my army is just huge, I guess it's time to the communist kick some butt :lol: .
Dec 31, 2001, 05:58 PM
I am very careful about MPPs. Never sign when AI asks--they have a reason, just As I do if I ask them to sign...
Having MPPs in place was probably got me elected in a UN victory.
In my last game, however, it all went crazy. I was going for a domination victory, and aquiring land and cities. I took most of Russia, and thrn granted her peace to give myself a break, and recover from war Weariness. She only had 4 major cities left, and a few outlying villages. I took her source of rubber and oil, so I knew she would not likely come back. Then a few turns later, she signed MPP with China, and declared war on Babylon. Then on England. Then on Germany. Then on America. I decided, I better get back in the action to get someof the spoils.
As soon as it was over (eliminated Russia) America declared war on me. No apparant reason. So I signed with China and Germany--they were glad to sign. Signed with England, for a hefty price. They all declared war on America, and generally mopped up that nation.
England attacked China and my MPP kicked in, so I had to go to war with England.
No choice offered, but i had mpp with both.
So I (Japan) attacked England, England was fighting America and now me and China. China came to my aid against England as well as America, and Germany also went after England.
Even Aztec, long at odds with me, but never war, came in against England.
The whole world was at war with somebody.
She had a huge fleet of Men-of-war, and was laying waste to my coast, then ducking into port. So I sent a few units over, and captured that port, and watches 11 large ships give up the ghost.
It was all over but the shouting, and that same turn my Culture won the game.
Jan 01, 2002, 02:11 AM
I love MPPs!!:love:
They can be really powerful. In one game, I was pretty bored and advanced and rich.(a deadly combination). So, i looked to my foreign advisor screen to try to find trouble. I realized that China, Greece, America, Japan, and India all had some MPP connection with eachother.(chain effect) So, I got england, zululand, Iroquois, and Germany(me) connected with MPPs. So, next turn I declared war on India. In 1-2 turns every civ was at war with at least 4 other civs.
The world war was really fun and lasted from 1780AD to 1995AD. Eventually, my side killed Greece, Japan, and China; we dismantled India and destroyed several American cities. Unfortunately;) , my side lost the Iroquois and Zulu.
In about 20 more turns, the war started again with me and England on one side against India and America.(same Mpp arrangement as before, but less complex) This time we slaughtered India and then after england wussed out :mad: I rushed Washington and razed the size 23 city with 4 wonders to the ground.:lol: The Americans sued for peace so I sent them to war with England. They killed england and I killed them with a gigantic nuclear strike and advanced armor invasion!!!:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :lol:
Jan 01, 2002, 03:54 AM
Gonzo, that story brought a tear to my eye :D
Jan 01, 2002, 09:15 AM
Once me - Rome - Greece, and France all had MPP with each other. Then suddenly France attacked me. Greece joined the fight and I got badly needed wines and France out of the way. It was wierd that a MPP nation attacked an ally. Like the U.S. attacking Canada, and England joining Canada's, or the attacked, side.
Feb 06, 2002, 01:37 PM
my best experience was that to sign a MPP on the first turn after some one declares war on you. in one game, i had tons of modern armors and mech. infantries, and 40 something nukes. but still England came to ask for a tech, of course i refused, and then England declared war on me. so I went to France and signed a MPP with the cost of a tech advance, then on next turn france was fight England with me. MPP seems cheaper to me than the military alliance.
Apr 09, 2002, 04:24 PM
I have had a lot of trouble with two aspects of MPP's - First is that they don't seem to end after twenty turns, several times I was drawn into some war way after the thing should have expired. (Do they automatically renew unless canceled somehow?) Second - according to the handbook the MPP only comes into play if the other party is attacked. However, again several times the civ I was in the MPP with attacked someone else, and the game automatically put me in a state of war with the civ that my ally attacked.
Anybody else seen this, or am I doing something wrong?
Apr 09, 2002, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by DrDon
I have had a lot of trouble with two aspects of MPP's - First is that they don't seem to end after twenty turns, several times I was drawn into some war way after the thing should have expired. (Do they automatically renew unless canceled somehow
Treaties and trade agreements do not automatically expire after their 20 turns, with the exception of initial peace treaties. To cancel an agreement, open the trade screen and at the bottom of the middle panel, click Active. This will give you a list of your active agreements, with a number in parentheses indicating how many turns remain before it can be cancelled peacefully. To cancel the treaty, click on it and it will be placed "on the table." Then, simply remove it from the table.
It has been my experience that more often than not, the AI cancels most agreements after 20 turns, but if they don't, you can.
Apr 09, 2002, 07:16 PM
I'm playing a tiny map, 4 civs total, of course. I randomed the landform, and got continents.
Started out with me(randomed India), Egypt, and Babylon on one larger continent, and Greece all alone on a smaller one. Well, to make a long story short, after some maneuvering and sneak attacks by Babylon, all that is left is me on my continent, and Greece on theirs. So, I signed an MPP with Greece, and he's *gracious* now. I have a 4-tech lead and I am two turns from building the tanks/transports/infantry to take him out. Of course an MPP with two factions in the game is perfectly safe. :smoke:
(Î would do the space race, since he's being so nice, but I want more war experience, and have yet to have a domination victory)
Also, pulled a neat move in the war with Babylon. I had gotten them down to five cities on the end of the continent, and got a great leader. I immediately took him to the city positioned perfectly for an FP, and made it the next turn. That finished Babylon, as all of a sudden, *all* of my cities could produce units quickly, not just the ones at the other end with the palace. He wouldn't talk to me at all for a while after he declared war, but, with one city left, he calls begging for peace. I had a stack of 8 longbows, 2 war elephants, and 6 catapults sitting at the gates of his only city. I wrote Hammurabi a short message: "You chose unwisely. Goodbye." :rocket:
I guess this means I *could* ROP-rape the Greeks when I'm ready, since there's no one to penalize me for it, but I won't. I'll just load about 7-10 transports full of military hardware, position them outside his sea borders, cancel the ROP/MPP one turn, and declare war the next, and land the troops. I know the ROP-rape one-turn war is easy, but I feel like it violates the spirit of the game. Way too cheesy for me. What you do in your own game is your business, but when/if MP ever comes, you can guarantee the first person to do that to me will die screaming in the next game I play with them.
Also, the AI will never do that to you as a planned, calculated move. Maybe some troops will be in your territory by accident if an MPP triggers them to declare war on you, but that's about all.
Apr 10, 2002, 08:56 PM
Sometimes MPPs can really get crazy.
One of my games there were 2 continents. Me the Egyptians were most powerful followed by India who was some distance away in score. Then came Russia, Greece Rome and Iroquois who were all on anther smaller continent. About 6 civs had been eliminated at this point.
I had an MPP running with the Iroquois, the Greeks and the Russians. The Indians had MPP with the Romans.
The Iroquois declared war on the Russians and they attacked first so i was forced to fight the Iroquois who had been my allies. I made an alliance with India against the Iroquois to involve them in the war. We warred for a few turns and then the Greeks declared war on the Russians and so did Rome a bit later. Russians took offense first on the Greeks and Romans and i had to fight against the Russians now and so did the Indians. Then Rome and Greece attacked each other and India joined the fray because of MPP with Romans and me because of MPP with Greece.
The result was that i was fighting everybody excpet the Greeks.
Greeks were fighting Russia, Rome, India
India fighting me, Iroquios, Greeks, Russia
Rome fighting me, Greeks, Russia
Iroquios fighting me, Russia, India
Russia fighting everybody
We had started off with two sets of allies in the world. Me, Russia, Iroquois, and Greece as one set and the Romans and Indians as the other. We were far more powerful but the MPPs and alliances destroyed those two sets and had the world fighting each other. It was crazy. The Indians took some cities from me and i had to wait till synthetic fibers to have a good chance against mech. infantry.
At the end of this all, I was the only one who managed to get something decent out of this all. I eliminated India after a long struggle. Russia took on the Romans and beat them up pretty bad until the Iroquois got some oil and started showing up with swarms of tanks and evened things out. I took out the Indians while some of its troops were abroad fighting the Iroquois and Greeks and Russians. The Romans sent another force to deal with the Greeks and so did India and Greek was being really beaten up.
At that point i finshed off India, and headed for Iroquois took their oil and finished them off. Then i made peace with the Russians and Romans and let them finish off the Greeks and then duke it out.
Russia and Rome wasted each other and i had a tech lead and the spaceship almost ready to go. Left the spaceship to be launced in 2050 and made nukes and took out Russia and Rome, who had made peace by then. Rome had 3-4 cities left and Russia 2 distant cities.
The MPPs got out of hand.
Apr 14, 2002, 07:51 PM
Damn, there is a lot of REALLY good advice here.
All I can say is:
1.) Ask yourself WHY a civ is coming to you for an MMP?
2.) Look and see if they would actually be able to help you if war broke out.
3.) What can you possibly gain from such an alliance? (i.e. Do they have a strong navy and you don't? Do the two of you set on either border of a third, more powerful county you'd both love to sack? Etc.)
I like signing MMPs with powerful distant countries, mainly because they usually go to war with other distant civs. If you build settlers and transports, you can oftentimes get yourself some resource rich prime real estate for free, just by being in the right spot.
NEVER EVER sigh an MMP with a little snot-nosed civ. I swear, they'll go to war with the meanest boy on the block in the next turn. ;) ES
Apr 14, 2002, 11:34 PM
In my current game that I am playing I had control of 1/3 of the contentent and france and egypt had the other two thirds.
I had just got out of war with egypt and I did not want to have to fight egypt again as they had cities on two sides of me and It would have been a two front war.
So to protect myself I got a MPP with France and I hoped they would help me during the next war with egypt.
Well There was another war with egypt and France was a BIG help, with them helping me I was able to consintrate most all my force against the northern Egyption citys and take them all out.
Then I swung south and took over those Egyption city, well actually only two cause france got 3 and china got 1.
So in my current game the MPP I got with France really helped me and It really eased over tensions with France and got them on good terms with me :goodjob:
oh yea a bit off topic but In that game I totally corner the Oil market :goodjob:
Apr 16, 2002, 06:28 PM
There are two situations where I sign MPPs:
1) If there is a country much stronger than me and I want to delay them attacking me.
2) If there is a country who is/will be at war with a country I want to go to war with. This gives me a clean diplomatic out for declaring war.
Usually, though, when MPPs are offered, I take the ROP and reject the MPP. This keeps people happy and off my back (I usually win either diplo or space race), but it doesn't get me involved when the whole world goes up in smoke. When that happens, I can sit back, smile, and pump up the research.
Apr 16, 2002, 06:57 PM
There's another reason.
If there is a weaker civ that clearly will be beaten by a larger aggressive civ, you do not want that to happen - it will make the larger civ even stronger.
Example: Germans with 21 cities; Chinese 7 cities. I have 21, also. A MPP with the Chinese may deter some civs (perhaps not the Germans) from attacking China; if they do, it is something I shouldn't permit anyway.
Apr 17, 2002, 07:46 AM
I have noticed that if another civ declares war against a rival that I'm at war with, the rival I'm at war with will pretty much ignore me and focus all his effort against the other AI rival.
Apr 17, 2002, 04:39 PM
I personally don't like MPPs.
The only time the AI asks for one is when you're stronger than him, so it's not really in your interest to sign it, because he needs you, not the other way around.
I'm a real warmonger in this game and I like plowing my way through the AI at every opportunity. However, I prefer to do in a time and place of my own choosing and when it will be to my advantage to do so. When I'm in a MPP, I always seem to be going to war against people whose positions don't offer me much (on the other side of the planet, etc) or I'm not ready to attack them yet. Even worse, I'm often trading with them for something, so I lose that because my stupid ally wanted to go to war.
The best thing that I've found if you want people to help you out in a fight is to form a military alliance against someone. That way, the civ you're attacking is hit from another border, and you don't have to worry about defending your ally if someone attacks his rear. It's a much better solution than a MPP
Apr 16, 2003, 01:29 PM
Some tips I use when sign MPP. I plan war well in advance, so I pick up opponent, stop trading and others agreement 20 turns before war. Second, at Demo I plan short war, not more then 10 turns, so I sing MPP with Allies 10 turn before war. i choose partners who unlikely to be at war soon or their wars will not harm me. When I start war I declare it first and wait 1-2 turns befor invadion to let all my MPP works in my favor. My opponent should have an ability to bomb my land from ship or bomber. I even settle City in the access area to be sure. Sometimes pouse is very effective, you opponent will send his tanks, cavs to the front and your landing will be less difficult. But it's just a begining...
May 02, 2003, 10:14 PM
I find MPP are more work then benefit, especialy in a late game scenario. Don't bother with them if you're more powerful then the rest of the world combined (as it often is in my case). All you'll be doing is fighting some smaller civilisation's war. Sure you reap the benefits of war but when you fight on 5 or 6 fronts it gets pretty anoying.
May 03, 2003, 09:15 AM
I once signed one with a small nation. Then the stupid AI goes in and declares war on france who has airplanes. Guess who gets the brunt of the assault. I had no airplanes myself because I was a few techs off and they wouldn't accept my envoy. Then they started rolling tanks in on me. After I made peace I wiped out the guy I had the MPP with.
May 03, 2003, 10:20 PM
Let me jump in here and say the best time to ever sign a mutual is if you are about to declare war. I never sing if I plan on making peace. Why? because if I get dragged into a war with Rome, i ussualy am screwed. So anyways that's my little tid bit. never sign to form a stronger relationship, its a bad choice that can bite back.
Jun 16, 2003, 07:20 AM
mpp's do work you see for me i just sign them with the strong civ which is always number 2 in power becuase i am number 1 i use mpp's before i go to war i sign them with as many people as possible bro it's halirous becuase i always own my own comtienut i never get into the war i just watch them destroy each other then i go in and destroy them when they r already weak it's a good way of playing the game
Jun 16, 2003, 12:41 PM
MPPs are killing everyone!!!
the situation i had was that i was china. i wiped persia and india off the face of the earth, and its either me or japan on the continent. on the other, is germany, england, zululand, and babylon........im a close second to japan.......i wipe out zululand, and germany lands troops at the far reaches of my land......i sign an MPP to stop them AND gain a foothold on the other continent since im against england. Then they turn around and get attacked by japan, causing me to go to war with them......im trapped on the continent against a slightly larger army, my territory is divided in two since i had to cut through japan (peacefully at the time) to get persia and india.......well, i reloaded an old game, force attacked germany, just to avoid war with japan........now there isnt a single civ that hasnt broken a single pact......geez
The Last Conformist
Jun 16, 2003, 10:14 PM
One of the truly weird things about MPPs is that, when at war, you sometimes can get one with a civ you can't get a Military Alliance with. O'course, this will drag them into the war anyway, so possibly this is a bug.
I've seen more than one game degenerate to a miasma of distrust and multilateral wars due to MPPs, but as long as you get on top that's OK. :) Sometimes I accept an MPP simply because an AI is prepared to pay for it, but I usually do it to deter an aggressive and powerful AI civ, either from attacking me or from attacking its weaker brethren. One can alsp do it immediately before going to war, to make sure one'll have allies.
Jun 22, 2003, 07:34 PM
Sign a MPP with one or two civilizations close to your main rival, and then declare war on him. It always works for me.
MPP is something very useful. It can even win games for you.
Jun 22, 2003, 11:40 PM
Very rarely sign them myself. I had a real bad experience with them in my early Civ III days. I was the US, and I was racing towards a space race victory, although I was militarily weaker than some nearby rivals. I figured the only thing that could stop my win was if I got attacked by a strong neighbor.
So, when the strongest neighbor offered a MPP, I gladly signed on. The next turn, they were attacked, and I ended up going to war with a country I had just ended a war with. Since I was in Democracy, there was massive war weariness immediately. I couldn't stop the rioting without increasing luxury spending to like 50%. I gave up and decided to switch to Republic. 6 turns of anarchy. Finally, I get to Republic. War weariness is still a problem, and research is getting so slow that I might lose the space race. So, I sue for peace. Stupidly, I decide to go back to Democracy. 6 turns of anarchy. Of course, I forgot my MPP partner was still at war, and the next turn, they get attacked and I'm back at war once again. Between the anarchy and war weariness induced civil disorder, I lost tons of money, several city improvements, and many turns of research.
MPP's are only useful for certain things. You have to realize that an MPP doesn't do what it's name implies - it doesn't buy you protection. Instead, they almost guarantee a war. The only time I use them now is when I want to go to war, and when I want the MPP partner's help in the war, or when I'm going for a diplo victory and want to make a civ gracious.
Jul 06, 2003, 01:35 AM
My experience with mpp comes from a recent game. Usually I avoid them because they drag my demo into wars that give me a lot of ww and no tangible benefits. However, this game I played as the Germans and was on a continent with 5 other civs. I attacked the Americans to get rubber and coal, and then settled back to be a peaceful republic. However, Babylon wiped out the iroqouis and was huge, scientifically and culturally better than me and aggressive. The Romans were aggressive too, but less powerful than me or Babylon. All that sat between my Borders and Babylon, was peaceful India. I didn't want India to get swallowed, (being the only surviving civ I hadn't warred with, and a good trading partner), so I signed and MPP, gave them techs to advance their units, and used a ROP to attack Babylon through the Indian buffer. Once India was at war with Babylon, they attacked India first, and I helped roll them back out of India's territory. Their army was huge. But my mpp with India served me well, because after pillaging the Babylonian landscape, helping myself to a few cities, and destroying some others, they were ready to make peace. (Oh, and I had destroyed Rome, somewhere in there.) They never messed with me again.
Jul 06, 2003, 01:58 AM
I never sign an incoming offer. I sometimes, not very often, initiate one, usually to counter an MPP that the AI's have concocted among themselves. If I'm ready to invade a neighbor, and it signs an MPP with a monster civ further away, I'll do the same with that monster's strongest neighbor before I invade. And sometimes you have to leave some bait to get an attack against your territory; that isn't difficult but if you forget, you can get bushwhacked.
Cross continent stuff, usually; if you can create a bloodbath across the ocean as part of a war you meant to have anyway on your own land, that can be a help - you don't want powerful AI's enjoying peace while you're slogging through a mid-period war; they outdevelop you in a new york minute.
I don't use MPP's to bring civs into a war against a strong rival; I think it's better to buy an alliance for that. Start the war with a strong city grab, and then offer the far-side neighbors money to join an alliance (if you're prepared to fight that long.) It's a lot less entangling and unpredictable than getting into MPP's with several small civs.
I think a rule of thumb is that with MPP's and alliances you get what you pay for. If it's free, it's probably not to your advantage.
Jul 07, 2003, 11:48 PM
"I think a rule of thumb is that with MPP's and alliances you get what you pay for. If it's free, it's probably not to your advantage."
Depends on how you can take advantage of the situation, I'd say my rule of thumb is.
Jul 08, 2003, 10:52 AM
I rarely use MPP's. I find that I end up being sucked into petty squabbles too often. I tend to be more of a builder than a war monger though. I prefer trade and peaceful expansion and so avoid "entangling alliances". If I get attacked, or do the attacking, I'll enter into MA's to get some help. I just prefer to be in control of when I get into a war......the MPP always seems to get triggered when I least want to be at war....
Aug 10, 2003, 12:20 AM
well i normally dont sign them..........unless im gonna go to war against a very powerful nation..........then i will sign mutual protection with a few nations then declare war...........but also make sure that you have good strong units........i will usually wait until i get a new tech that will allow me to have a better unit then the enemy...........say cavalry or summtin...........
Aug 14, 2003, 10:15 AM
I only use them if my partner is very powerful and I'm weak at the time. Otherwise, I avoid them and use Rite of Passages (ROP)instead. The AI is very reluctant to attack you if you have an ROP with them. Hey, they walk all through your country anyway!
Aug 14, 2003, 02:05 PM
It all depends on the situation for me.
But almost all of my games, I do enter into a MPP at some time or another. For the most part, they help out my cause.
What I have learned is to avoid having MPP with more than 1 other civ. Things tend to get ugly then.
Aug 14, 2003, 06:30 PM
MPPs came in handy in my current game (Persia on Monarch level, continents). There are 2 main continents, one of which I own completly while the other is split evenly between Japan and Rome. Problem was, by the time I swept England, Zulu and Babylon from my continent I was behind in all areas -- techs, culture and militarily. Also, my rep. was none too good due to my early war-mongering. My only chance to catch up was to foster a war on the other continent, so I did some major sucking-up until Japan agreed to an MPP. Rome declared war on me, and the big boys proceeded to duke it out. They both changed to war govts. which allowed me to catch up in all areas -- I managed to beat them to both Univ Suff. and Hoover, and have open options on the type of victory I want. Without MPP I stood a good chance of being invaded by both civs, and would have had no chance of catching up. But I was lucky that Japan and Rome were evenly enough matched to lead to a prolonged war with no clear winner (or else I would have been in trouble).
Feb 15, 2004, 09:02 AM
MPPs are amazing. Get as many civs to sign a MPP with you. Pick some1 you dont like and declare war on them. DO NOT ATTACK THEM THAT TURN. After your turn is over they will come into your territory to attack. Since they performed the first act of agression every1 that u have a MPP declares war on them. Sign a MA with your fellow civs to improve you reputation.
May 15, 2005, 02:27 PM
I have some more questions about MPPs that I didn't find answered yet ...
how can I make peace with a civ without being a traitor to the civ I have an MPP with? Is it impossible?
For example if I have a MPP with France, and *I* declare war on the Germans, so France later declares war on them, and then at a later point I make peace with the Germans, for some reason France says I backstabbed them. What the heck? Wasn't it my war to begin with?
Also how does this work when you have MPPs with 2 countires who then go to war with each other? Are you backstabbing BOTH counties?
I have gotten some bad reputations in the past andi don't think it's fair!
May 15, 2005, 02:39 PM
You are forced to declare on the the Civ that attacked first. That's why it's good to declare war and wait for you opponent to attack you.
May 15, 2005, 03:19 PM
You can now see why MPP's are not often in your best interest. Once your partner declares, you must declare or break the MPP. If you make peace before they do, you are going to be right back in that position and they will be mad to boot.
It can become a real tangle. At least an alliance will end.
May 15, 2005, 03:41 PM
When it suits my purposes- when I know I'm about to go to war.
May 16, 2005, 12:40 AM
I almost never sign them when the AI comes to me, but I often con the AI into signing them when I'm about to get into a war so that the civ I'm fighting has to shift some units to a second or third front
May 16, 2005, 06:41 AM
MPP between AI's can get very annoying. When you're at war with 2 stronger civs with MPP and you make peace with one, attack the other and the first one attacks you.
May 16, 2005, 02:22 PM
In a recent game, I was going for a space victory, but had a pretty decent army and a tech lead. The Zulus had decided to invade my territory, so I got other folks to go to war with them, took a few of their cities and pillaged everything else in their territory (just to learn 'em.). Over the course of doing this, I eliminated one of their allies and their other ally eventually made peace with me and started attacking them!
In the end, I made peace with them, so I could focus on my spaceship. My allies and their former allies are still carving them up piecemeal. So what happens? The Zulus come to me, asking for a mutual protection pact! I laughed for a good minute, gifted them with one gold instead, which they graciously thanked me for.
May 17, 2005, 01:45 PM
MPPs do backfire, but they can be very helpful - especially if you aren't clearly the strongest. I've made significant gains because a MPP brought me allies, in situations where otherwise I'd have made only tiny gains in a major slugfest.
My earliest use of the MPP was in one of my first games in Vanilla. I was the leading power on the main continent. Rome controlled the whole of the smaller of the two continents, and dominated militarily. I was able to sign MPPs with all the other civs on my continent - like the US and Latin America before WW II - and we all cooperated to keep Rome from getting a foothold. I appreciated the AIs help, and also none of the others was capable of resisting Rome without my help, and I really didn't want Rome getting a city on my continent where they might build up their forces.
I was behind militarily but managed to lead technologically and win by the space race.
May 17, 2005, 09:57 PM
I used to sign MPPs all the time, but got over that. Now I just wait until I get attacked, and get MAs all around dogpiling the civ that attacked me. I had my rep trashed too many times by getting dragged into a war that I didn't want to be in.
May 17, 2005, 10:31 PM
I tend not to enter MPPs. The only thing they've ever done for me is get me into wars that I want no part of.