View Full Version : Newbie guide to safely establish a beachhead on Sid


Moonsinger
Apr 21, 2004, 08:30 PM
If you are just starting to try out on Sid, you may quickly notice that establishing a beachhead on Sid is really no picnic. By using an army to protect our landing parties, we can land safely without any problem. However, once we take over one of their cities or build a town on their continent, they will attack us with everything they get. In most case, they will out run our position without much of a problem. By using the following trick, I have been very successful with establishing a foothold on the AIs continent:

1. Going to war as usual, but do not send troops to their continent just yet. We want to surprise them as much as we can.

2. Find a good landing spot, referably next to their luxury or valuable resource. Our main goal is to take control of their resource since resource is very rare on Sid.

3. Assemble an invading force consisting with at least 1 settler, 1 army at full health, and enough troops to take out at least 2 of their cities. Have them standing ready but do not land just yet. Note: The AIs are usually defending their town with about 4 of their best defenders at this level.

4. Now we wait until the AI willing to accept our envoy.

5. Land our troops and attack with eveything we have. Note: our army will protect our troops during the landing turn. Raze all the surrounding cities as many as we can, then use our settler to build a town next to their luxuries/resources.

6. Immediately sign a peace treaty! We now have at least a few more more turns to fortify our beachhead. In most case, the AIs would give us the next 20 turns in peace, but I usually try to fortify my beachhead ASAP - never known when they might change their minds. Next, ship over a lot of cannons/artilleries and join workers to turn the little town turn it into a city to gain defensive bonus. Rushing the barracks is usually the first order of the day, then CivDefense if I the technology is available. Now the beachhead is pretty much secured.:)

7. At this point, I would like to recommend you to read SirPleb's guide to the Funnel of Doom next. It wouldn't hurt to prepare the Funnel of Doom to give extra protection for our beachhead (just in case).:)

Aggie
Apr 22, 2004, 03:44 AM
Very clever strategy Moonsinger :) Now where can I find that Funnel of Doom article?

TedJackson
Apr 22, 2004, 04:22 AM
Originally posted by Aggie
Very clever strategy Moonsinger :) Now where can I find that Funnel of Doom article? Try SirPleb, Going for Sid (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1763917#post1763917) :)


Ted

Offa
Apr 22, 2004, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Moonsinger
Note: The AIs are usually defending their town with about 4 of their best defenders at this level.



Only 4? It was more like 40 defenders per city on my last go, and that was in BC (normal size island map). Are you doing something clever to trim down their armies first?

Moonsinger
Apr 22, 2004, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Offa
Only 4? It was more like 40 defenders per city on my last go, and that was in BC (normal size island map). Are you doing something clever to trim down their armies first?

Usually the AI were also at war with someone else too; therefore, their stack of doom were some where else. Anyway, it seems very funny that the moment I landed, I saw them instantly moving most of their force toward their capitals and away from their beach. I have never encounter a beachhead with more than 7 defenders. Btw, you can easily lure their stack of doom away by simply landing a small diversion force elsewhere near their capital 1 turn before that.

vmxa
Apr 22, 2004, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Moonsinger
[B]

6. Immediately sign a peace treaty! We now have at least a few more more turns to fortify our beachhead. In most case, the AIs would give us the next 20 turns in peace, but I usually try to fortify my beachhead ASAP - never known when they might change their minds. Next, ship over a lot of cannons/artilleries and join workers to turn the little town turn it into a city to gain defensive bonus. Rushing the barracks is usually the first order of the day, then CivDefense if I the technology is available. Now the beachhead is pretty much secured.:)



I have some problems with this one, civdef? Man that is very late in the game.

Peace is very touchy as well.

The big thing to me is it is not all that common to see the KAI having much trouble with the other AI's. It will run over them or be at peace. either way they will have plenty of units to assault your beachhead.

The big concern is that you may well be forced to wait for tech to travel ocean tiles. This means they will have at least rifles and may soon have infantry. Infantry means calv armies are not going to be very effective assualting cities, even rifles are no fun. Maybe you can draw them out, maybe not.

sabrewolf
Apr 22, 2004, 03:56 PM
clever, but isn't this quite an exploitation of the AI?

like if you'd build a city on top of the resources, surround it with armies (ok, you'd need 8 ;)) and they'll never attack ;)

Moonsinger
Apr 22, 2004, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by vmxa
I have some problems with this one, civdef? Man that is very late in the game.

Unless you are planning to invade their continent and wipe them out for good, you don't really need to fortify your beachhead at all; therefore, CivDefense isn't really needed until much later anyway. In my game, I use this method to take over the luxury from the AIs one at a time without any problem. By the time I have enough force to wipe them out, I just simply use my already well establish base on their continent to launch major offensive; in most case, their usual stack of at least 500 units can be terminated within about 5 turns. Another 5 turns to raze their cores and they would be gone forever.;)

Peace is very touchy as well.

True! The secret is to keep the AIs constantly at war with each others and with your enemy.

The big thing to me is it is not all that common to see the KAI having much trouble with the other AI's. It will run over them or be at peace. either way they will have plenty of units to assault your beachhead.

When they finally assault my beachhead, they usually throw at least 300 units during the first two waves. I think with as little as 100 artilleries and 40 infantries, the beachhead will hold (assuming they don't have anything better than infantries and cavalries). It doesn't really matter how many waves, all our defenders will be completely healed at the beginning of every turn anyway (as long they are fortified inside the barracks). In my game, I leave my beachhead undefended most of the time until I'm ready to wage the final war. When it's time to destroy the AI for good, I fortified my beachhead with around 50 Infantries, 200 artilleries, 40 cavalry armies (4 cavalry units in each army), then declare war (that was really all the troop I could come up with - by this time, most of my cavalries either in the armies or long dead). After about 6 turns, my armies were ready to raze their cores and that would be the end of them.


The big concern is that you may well be forced to wait for tech to travel ocean tiles. This means they will have at least rifles and may soon have infantry. Infantry means calv armies are not going to be very effective assualting cities, even rifles are no fun. Maybe you can draw them out, maybe not.

True! I usually establish my beachheads at the end of the Middle Age, but had to wait until I have Combustion to launch the real invasion. The real purpose of the early beachhead is to gain luxuries and resources - exactly the main reason why I wait until they are willing to accept my envoy before establishing my beachhead.

PS: How did I come 40 armies? Mostly by sending my cavalries against the AI stack of archers or Med Infantries. Usually, it's not too hard to locate the AI stacks of several hundred archers for target practice - exactly why Sid is really a lot of fun!.;) Not only my cavalries against archers/bowmans, they were also back by my artilleries too - oh those poor archers - I'm so sorry - may they rest in peace.:cry: Combining that with rushing army, it's not too hard to come up with at least 40 armies for the final showdown.

Moonsinger
Apr 22, 2004, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by sabrewolf
clever, but isn't this quite an exploitation of the AI?

May be! But it's so much fun and I will continue to use it.:)

like if you'd build a city on top of the resources, surround it with armies (ok, you'd need 8 ;)) and they'll never attack ;)

You could do that if you have 8 armies all dress up with no where to go.;) There is really no need to tie up valuable resources like that.

zerksees
Apr 22, 2004, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by sabrewolf
clever, but isn't this quite an exploitation of the AI?

Playing this game is an exploitation of the AI! Seriously I see no problem with taking advantage of flaws in the program. Giving the AI such a production advantage on Sid isn't considered an exploitation of you.

vmxa
Apr 22, 2004, 08:40 PM
Moonsinger one of the reason I dislike huge maps and even Large ones is having to kill massive numbers of troops at each civ.

It is fun once, but it get so tedious, even std maps can become a headache.

EMan
Apr 23, 2004, 03:37 AM
Moonsinger, do you ever suffer from culture-flips when you settle a city on the AI's island at Sid-level?...........how do YOU best prevent it? :)

Moonsinger
Apr 23, 2004, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by EMan
Moonsinger, do you ever suffer from culture-flips when you settle a city on the AI's island at Sid-level?...........how do YOU best prevent it? :)

Usually, I build my beachhead town with my own citizen settlers and I also raze enough surrounding area to ensure the full 21 tiles city limit. For example:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ms_sid_beachhead1.jpg

In this case, Prothoe gives me one source of luxury.:) Since the AI also controll two tiles of my other beachhead town, it has a small chance of flipping. By station enough troop there, I could prevent it from flipping for awhile. Usually, I would abandon such town since I don't like keeping a lot of my troops in one town like that; however, since it's only two squares away from my supply line, each of my transport could make two complete drops each time, I decided to try to hold it with at least 60 units.

The culture graph of the above AI:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ms_sid_culture_1120ad.jpg

PS: In my this game, I have suffered 1 unexpected culture flip so far at the heart of my empire!:( I was expanding so fast and running out of settler, so I had to use a non citizen settler to claim the land. About 40 turns later, for some strange reason, 1 peaceful Greek citizen was able to convince 7 of my Mayans to switch side (and I wasn't even at war with Greece). I was thinking of taking it right back, but decide to see if I can flip it back. Btw, Prothoe was defended by only 1 infantry. I hope it won't flip, but it's only wine.;)

binyo66
Apr 29, 2004, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by Moonsinger
May be! But it's so much fun and I will continue to use it.:)



You could do that if you have 8 armies all dress up with no where to go.;) There is really no need to tie up valuable resources like that.
This is the 2nd articles from moonsinger (which IMO somekind of exploit). The first is the Loan and Remove or Declare War Trick. But as you say it, its fun and will continue to use it. Unfortunately, I am not even a deity yet :cry:

Moonsinger
Apr 30, 2004, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by binyo66
This is the 2nd articles from moonsinger (which IMO somekind of exploit). The first is the Loan and Remove or Declare War Trick. But as you say it, its fun and will continue to use it. Unfortunately, I am not even a deity yet :cry:

IMO, no one can beat Sid without using some kind of exploit. If you know someone who can beat Sid without exploiting the AI's stupidity, please let me know.:) I use only what I call 'real life' tricks (trick that normally happen in real life). For example, in real life, it's normal for a nation to borrow a lot of money and when they couldn't pay it back, lure the other guy into declaring war and call it even steven. In real life, a person can legally borrow a lot of money to jump start their life or their business and things don't go well, they declare bankruptcy. A person, a city, or even a nation can declare bankruptcy or war to get out of debt. By the way, the AIs are doing this too. There were countless of time they declare war on me because they couldn't pay me. Therefore, what so call trick here isn't really a trick at all because everyone are doing it to each other.

About the little trick in this thread, it happens all the time in the real world too! Every nation at war would normally launch everything it has to make the final stand or the final push for territory before signing peace treaty or cease fire. What so call trick here isn't really a trick at all. I was just unfolding a real life dilemma in the game - the only different is that when I lose a game, I just start another game. In real life, I may not be able to recover from it. Exactly why these tricks provide me some cheap enterainment. I can't really conquer the real world, but at least I have fun conquering the fantasy world and I don't see anything wrong with that.

vmxa
Apr 30, 2004, 02:51 PM
Yes one would need to use some exploits and get a good start location. Many of us would not restart a game with a poor location at say Demi, but I would suggest all will at Sid.

EMan
Apr 30, 2004, 07:08 PM
I have to throw in my 2 "sense" worth on these so-called exploits. For me an exploit is usually a BUG in the program.....and usually Firaxis fixes it with a subsequent patch.

Moonsinger, you are an honorable conquistadorable to the extreme.....comparing Civ-Battle-Ethics to real life....WOW!! :)

Let's face it, the AI does a lot of stupid things.....the BIG one being its "Battle Tactics"....or lack thereof! ;)
You could say that doing ANY battle with the AI is an "Exploit", Period!! ;)

I guess I over-react a little when someone questions the Goddess' Game Ethics!..............probably because she's such a strong player who abandons games if she feels she has taken too much advantage of game weaknesses!........Oh, to have such a luxury........at Sid Level to boot!! :)

Moonsinger
May 01, 2004, 06:32 PM
Oh dear! I think I may have to change my CT to something other than Goddess.;)

EMan
May 01, 2004, 10:33 PM
Won't make any difference....we'll still call you Goddess! :lol:

Spoonwood
Jun 29, 2008, 11:47 PM
Seriously.... exploits? The AI has two extra settlers, lots of extra starting units, extra workers, and gets to pay 4/10 the shield cost of anything the human player has to pay... and some people call such *tactics* exploits???

bryanwallace
Aug 28, 2008, 03:52 PM
surely another way wld be to take a city then loan to a civ farawy then retreat and take back later

Spoonwood
Dec 07, 2011, 06:46 AM
I have a different strategy. It depends upon having the ability to renegotiate a peace treaty, and that you don't export any resources or luxuries to any AIs.

1. Sign an RoP with the target tribe.

2. Ship your troops and other units on over.

3. Once you have sufficient force, make sure you can trade for one of the AIs luxuries or resources, and make sure you have plenty of gpt. This might mean that you pillage roads on resources/luxury square, or it may mean that you gift cities to the target AI (with one unit right next to it so you can soon re-take it, of course).

4. Re-negotiate peace with the target AI. In the new deal you want a peace treaty, with gpt coming from you to the AI, and a luxury/resource from the AI to you.

5. Disconnect the trade route to your capital (no roads in the 8 squares around your capital seems to work best). This causes the target AI to declare war on you.

6. Attack and capture as many cities as you can hold.

Note that the large stacks of AI units generally don't consist of fast units. So, as long as you have a few decent units to defend your newly acquired cities, you may well not lose any cities on the first turn. But, what if the AI sends a massive stack of doom your way and comes next to a city very soon? Well, either raze it, or alternatively *gift* that city to another AI at war with the target AI. This will split up the stack, and give you more time for "target practice".