I want to do a new map for the Napoleonic Scenario, which would include new civs. The starting date will be after Napoleon returned to France from Egypt in October 1799. The new nations don’t necessarily have to be from October 1999, it’s more important that they played an important role, through much of the 1799-1815 period. I added an * to the new proposed nations.

Here is the map I’m basing this off, it’s from 1800.
http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1800.htm



France
Netherlands
Great Britain (including Hannover)
Russia
Spain
Portugal
Sweden
Ottoman Empire (including Walachia, Moldovia)
Denmark-Norway
Austria
Kingdom of Naples (including Papal States, Tuscany, Sardinia, Genoa and all the rest)
*Cisalpine Republic
*Belvetic Republic
*Maghreb (including Morocco, Algiers Regency, Beylik of Tunis, Pashalik of Tripoli)
Prussia
*Saxony
*Bavaria
*Rhine Confederacy (all those little ones east of the rhine)

Locked alliances
France - Denmark - Cisalpine Republic - Belvetic Republic
Britain - Portugal - Kingdom of Naples - Netherlands
Prussia - Saxony - Bavaria - Rhine Confederacy


Questions:
Is this historically OK???

Should Piedmont Sardinia be with the Kingdom of Naples???

Who does Ragusa, Janina belong to???

Originally posted by Mr Black


Great Britain (including Hannover)
Ottoman Empire (including Walachia, Moldovia)
Kingdom of Naples (including Papal States, Tuscany, Sardinia, Genoa and all the rest)
*Cisalpine Republic
*Belvetic Republic
*Maghreb (including Morocco, Algiers Regency, Beylik of Tunis, Pashalik of Tripoli)
*Saxony
*Bavaria
*Rhine Confederacy (all those little ones east of the rhine)

Locked alliances
France - Denmark - Cisalpine Republic - Belvetic Republic
Britain - Portugal - Kingdom of Naples - Netherlands
Prussia - Saxony - Bavaria - Rhine Confederacy
Should Piedmont Sardinia be with the Kingdom of Naples???


I'm not sure that all those little states will add much to the game as AI players. They were passive players in history and mostly provided battlefields and a few troops. In most cases they will be quickly over run. Why not treat them as "barbarian" cities that need to be conquered and then trigger other events.

But that said why not include:
Helvetic rep.
Westphalia
A way to recreate Poland as a French Ally if they enter Warsaw.

You could use either of these maps as a starting point:

Europe to India Map (340x200) by Carolus
TAM (the Ancient Mediterranean) by Thamis

Both have threads in the forums.
Europe to India has better terrain placement for the period but the map is very big. Games can be slow, but you have room for anything you might want to add.

Originally posted by dnaquin
I'm not sure that all those little states will add much to the game as AI players. They were passive players in history and mostly provided battlefields and a few troops. In most cases they will be quickly over run. Why not treat them as "barbarian" cities that need to be conquered and then trigger other events.

But that said why not include:
Helvetic rep.
Westphalia
A way to recreate Poland as a French Ally if they enter Warsaw.

Helvetic, so that's an 'H' then. :o While they might get overrun they're all locked in with a bigger neighbor, except for the Barbary states, which are pretty big by themselves anyway.

When I wrote "Great Britain (including Hannover)", I meant that Hannover would be within the British, not a seperate civ.

I don't know anything about Poland, but if they're added will they take away some key cities from Prussia???

As far as Westphalia, they're included in with the Rhine Confederacy.

Prior to Napoleon the Confederation of the Rhine was made up of hundreds of tiny principalities that owed alliegance to Austria (HRE). These German states could be depicted as separate cities each with a small area of influence.

Westphalia actually produced significant contribution to Napoleon's war effort, much more so than most of the small German states.

Poland was partitioned three times by Prussia, Russia and Austria during the 1790s and with the last partition it disappeared as a nation. Napoleon revived it in 1808 and then in 1813 Russia absorbed it. After WW1 Poland gained nation status once again.

The Rhine confederacy was a French sattelite state. So as Prussian ally they seem to be unhistorical although as Germans they were not very glad to be ruled by Napoleon. Prussia should be allied with Austria more than with Westfalia.

Adler

Westphalia is hard to model. It was a relatively small state until Napoleon made it a kingdom for his brother, and took a good part of neighboring state territory to increase Westphalia

Well, actually, I've done a Europe map myself which is available on Civfanatics. If you want to have a look, just click on the link in my sig for the Europe map.

It's a 100x100 map. It may sound small, but I've been able to do a ww1 scenario with it which was quite accurate. Well, it's up to you but if the map is too big, it might become unplayable because of the lagging turns.

By the way, Denmark-Norway should be called Denmark.

Like you don't say: England-Scotland-Ireland-Wales.

Interesting info, didn't realize the Rhine Confederacy was Napoleon's doing.

So before Napoleon ‘moved’ into Germany, to whom would these cities belong to?

Stuttgart
Frankfurt
Düsseldorf
Bremen

Would the different German states not help each other? I don’t really want that many 1 city civs, but if that’s historically correct then……I guess what I’m asking is, how would you divide Germany up?

As far as the map, thank you for all your suggestions but I actually like to do the maps. I think it’s the best part of making a scenario. :)

As far as allying the small German states and Prussia with Austria, didn't the Austrians stay neutral for a good long time?

Originally posted by storealex
By the way, Denmark-Norway should be called Denmark.

Like you don't say: England-Scotland-Ireland-Wales.

my bad

Napoleon first campaigns were with the Armee d'Italie, against the Austrians. So no, Austrians did not remain neutrals for a long time.

as you can see from this map, Europe was quite a patchwork of states at that time

europe in 1800 (http://www.euratlas.net/AHP/grand/gr1800.htm)

napoleon's Confereracy of the Rhine consolidated over 1000 tiny independent states which owed alligence to the Holy Roman Emperor (Austria)

Stuttgart: Wurtemberg
Frankfurt: either its own city or in Principality of Nassau
Düsseldorf: Duchy of Berg
Bremen: Hanover

You cannot depict that in the game. that's why i suggested that you put in the major cities and givve them a musketman or two and make them "barbarian cities". Whoever controls them, gets the production. You could give them a bunch of gold too.

The boundries of these states changed frequently from 1795 to 1815 and 98% of all those around in 1795 were gone by 1815. I wouldn't make any of them AI civs, but key on the important cities. Your map size will drive how much room you have to allocate to each. Two or three cities might be Bavarian and the same with Hanover. Northern Italy in 1796 is very much the same but has maybe 10 little states.