In next civ i think it would be a nice factor if they gave more importance to guerilla wars. As we can see, in various times in our history, those type of wars had a very nice outcome agaisnt regular war strategies.
Guerillas in the next civ would have move movements and when they attack, they do it and then flee causing damage to non-guerilla units, while these units (non-guerilla) dont do damage at all.
But that strategies can only be used when in situations of danger of losing territory or to recover your own ex-territory and not for attacking enemy territory.

Please give your comments....

You mean like Civ2 when you capture a city and partisans come out around the city?

Or barbarians that grow with the times?

In either event, I like the idea.

Its not really that.
I mean, when you are being attacked, you train guerillas and you fight the enemy in your lands, and get very good results, because of the feactures that i mentioned....

i think guerillas should have better movement

maybe something like 6/4/2 and costing 2/3 or 1/2 of what they cost now

the way things are,in PTW anyway the only unit u can use for guerilla warfare(hit and run for your life) are cavalery

What if civs that are being destroyed can continue fighting as a guerillamovement, supported by other nations! After a Civ is defeated, you may offer them to build a main base in your country, with workers they will also be able to build camps in the occupied country!

Your support of these freedom fighters would severely damage relations to the other occupying civ!

Comments please....

Giving existing Guerillas Road movement would be sufficient for a true Guerilla... There was a thread in which myself and someone else (whose name escapes me) where he decided to put a no-nation flag and road movement onto Guerilla, and I thought road movement was sufficient. Also, I loved Partisans in Civ2, they were quality! Those were the days...

Originally posted by Philips beard
What if civs that are being destroyed can continue fighting as a guerillamovement, supported by other nations! After a Civ is defeated, you may offer them to build a main base in your country, with workers they will also be able to build camps in the occupied country!

Your support of these freedom fighters would severely damage relations to the other occupying civ!

Comments please....


Hey people, comment my splendid idea please!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Philips beard
What if civs that are being destroyed can continue fighting as a guerillamovement, supported by other nations! After a Civ is defeated, you may offer them to build a main base in your country, with workers they will also be able to build camps in the occupied country!

Your support of these freedom fighters would severely damage relations to the other occupying civ!

Comments please....

That could work.
For the resistance!
And if you are successful enough you could regain your cities.

Although for a Conquerer like me, a resistance (or multiple ones :eek: ) would be real pains, but they would make invading enemy territory and keeping it harder...

I have always liked the idea of being able to sponsor geurilla fighters for a civ fighting a war with one of your enemies-or even to fight against your enemies directly. A case in point might be the US funding of anti-Japanese geurilla fighters in Vietnam (who went on to use their training to spectacular success in the Vietnam War ;) :rolleyes: !) or their later funding of the Contra Rebels in Nicuragua. Anyway, politics aside, I guess what I'm trying to say is that it should be possible to 'fund' guerilla operations in a foreign nation-whether to help defeat a third party invader of that nation, or to defeat the foreign nation itself-as I believe Phillips Beard is trying to suggest (at least, I THINK that's what he is suggesting!)
Hmmmm, perhaps there could be a new 'terrain improvement' that you can build: one which produces fighters, belonging to a civ of YOUR choice (even your own, if you wanted), every X turns-of course this should be VERY expensive, and if another nation found out you were doing it, you might take a VERY serious rep hit!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

I like the idea. I agree that giving a movement factor of 2 and "all terrain as roads" would probably be the best way to give the guerilla fighters the hit-and-run capacity. However, if you want to make it more realistic, then the stats should be more like cavalry (i.e. high attack, very low defense). The Vietnamese lost huge casualties during the war, the Americans lost about 57k dead (no one knows the full loss to the Vietnamese but it was at least one to two orders of magnitude higher!)

True rcoutme but, when you consider the difference in military technologies of the two sides, I think that the Vietcong did a HELL of a lot better. After all, the didn't have lots of bombers, battleships and Napalm/Agent Orange.
Also, remember that a large number of Vietnams casualties were actually civilian!
Anyway again, don't REALLY want to get into the politics of it. My point still remains that it should be possible to somehow sponser guerilla warfare in a foreign nation-either by the method I mentioned above, or even by building them youself and trading/selling them to the other nation!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

Glad you liked these ideas! With this system you would also have a chance to win your empire back, even if all your cities are conquerred! It also gives other empires the chance to fight eachother without declaring war, via partisans and guerillas!

This would really add more politics to the game, and really be cool in a cold war scenario, and the epic game as well!

And what about the guerilla combat? Would it be equal to the normal one? I think not.....
Guerilla warfare means ambush fights, very quick fights. In that fights, guerrila soldiers place themselfes in a certain hideout and wait until the target comes. Then, when the time is right, they attack with very accuracy and then leave quickly. Sometimes the targets dont even see the guerilla men, and they suffer a considerabily damage.
This is the real spirit of guerilla. How can a game can represent this?
give your sugestions please....

Why not make them like a ground based bomber with a low bombard value and the ability to select it's target.

I think guerillas should have the withdraw ability, and the ability to ignore tarrain with 2 in move!

Guerillas should only be availble to resistance movements as I have described previous at this thread!

Perhaps they should have attack bonuses in jungle, forest and mountains too?

The guerillas should also be called partisans if your Civ was a one party state (communism/fascism) before it became a resistance! Otherwise guerillas!

I think guerillas would have a new ability called ambush. This ability is a not a form of combat, its just like the sabotage ability of civ 2 spy. Simply instead of returning imediately to the city, guerillas can move freely after doing this.
Of course the guerillas' ambush have too a very little change that the guerilla get harmed too, and that factor would be set in differeent types of terrains as i heard somewhere in here.

Perhaps guerrila combat could be represented like this:

When attacking outside cities you get these 2 options of attack:
1 - Damage enemy (so like a bombard. This represents hit and run attacks. You would then be able to move away before the enemy can attack back)
or
2 - Go for the kill (where you engage the enemy in battle as normal)

or a 3rd one could introduce the idea of hindering the enemys movement...perhaps preventing them from moving in teh next turn)

Then when attacking cities you get the additional option of attempting to destroy an improvment,

Guerillas should get movement of 2 and 'all terrain as roads' when in their own territory and a big bonus to attack/defense when fighting in their own territory.

Guerillas should have three ways of be created:
1st-As a normal unit
2nd-As a draft of citizens, costing nothing and creating no unhappiness
3rd-An option that makes the city create a guerilla every turn it grows a citizen(of course that grow goes to the guerilla, so the city dont grow at all).

I am sorry to have some problems with some of the suggestions. Especialy with the extra movement point. At first this was also what I thought would be sufficient to have a guerilla unit, as there is a chance of retreating when loosing, and so a kind of hit-and-run tactic is provided. However, I now think this is not the right concept.

Guerilla's are foot units. They're not fast, they hide well and strike unexpectedly, causing damage without being damaged thereselves: the hit-and-run tactic. And this should strongly depend on terrain, in my opinion. Guerilla's in grasslands or planes for example are fairly visible and consequently very vulnerable to any well trained army; they are generally poorer armed (so lower stats) and should not be able to make a surprise attack there and run away from the enemy because of the extra move point.

I'm therefore more attracted to the idea of ComradeDavo. I would suggest a guerilla as a characteristic of a unit, in the sense of getting one or more free shots. In that sense, the guerilla unit can take its free shot(s) and still run away, if he likes, or fortify to try and hold its stand without a full fight in the first place. Guerilla tactics come prefereably from out a jungle or forest, as units could litteraly hide there. I am refering to a post of player and poster "judgement", about visibility of units, suggesting that units in jungle and forests could not be seen by the enemy. The guerilla could then be given the extra ability to see a tile wide in home jungles or forests, so improved visibility there. This would greatly help guerrilla tactics.

About how to creat a guerilla, I don't have a great answer. I would silently suggest what is already done in CIV3. If you can't make the basic unit because of lack of the required resource (infantry because you lack rubber), make a unit with somewhat lower stats, the guerilla. I.e. Iron Working: if you don't have iron, you can still make a guerilla swordsman (stats: 2-2-1 or even 2-1-1 but with the guerilla bonuses). Other example: Feudalism: no pikeman or medieval infantry possible withour iron, but instead build the medieval guerilla (stats: 3-2-1 with guerilla bonuses).

So to conclude, I support ComradeDavo's suggestions in a somewhat adapted version:
1. Give the guerilla one or more free shots, but no movement bonus;
2. It still has the possibility to get a hand-to-hand fighting;
3. Guerilla are foot units with somewhat weaker stats then normal combat units;
4. Guerilla can always be created, even if you lack the required resource for the basic unit coming with the new tech;
5. Guerilla as a tactic can only be used in forests, jungle, hills and mountains. Improved visibility towards rival units in home forest and jungle is an option (if "judgement"'s visibility idea survives, but that's another thread).

What do people think?

Regards,
Jaca

In the movement bonus matter i think i disagreed with you. You see, guerillas that fight in their territory know it very well, and also know the best way through. But, in other way, this bonus will only be applied to the civilization land (or ex-land), and not to foregin land.
Also, i think that guerillas could have the ambush ability in only few types of land, so i totally agreed with you in that point, and in the point that guerillas can hide in those terrains.

Movement bonus in home territory only? Interesting indeed.

The enemy is already limited in movement in enemy territory as it cannot use the rival road network, kind of simulating the use of an unknown territory. Furthermore, the suggested extra visibility of the guerilla in their home jungle and forests and the general unit possibility of hiding in such terrain, would simulate the familiarity with that terrain pretty well.

I hope we can avoid the guerilla becoming a too strong unit though. It should imo surely have lower stats, and indeed loose all of it's guerilla bonuses in foreign territory. It is basically a defender. It might all however increase the strategic road taken in a war, as forests and jungles can be tough to pass with many guerilla's in there hiding.

So I am still not convinced about the extra MP, ut find it interesting. I might as a compromise, suggest something in between what you suggest and my earlier point 5. I mean an extra MP in those tiles for the guerilla, but certainly not more then that.

I wonder though what others think?

Regards,
Jaca

I disagreed with you about the guerilla being only a mere defender. Guerillas, in my opion, should be able to defend the territory and also to recover lost territory. So if they attacked a city recently occupied by the enemy, they receive a bonus. Also, when in this situation, they could do other things such as infiltrating the city for trying to kill some soldiers, or sabotaging enemy vechicles or buildings. Take the cuban example: they were guerillas and they actually gain control of the country.

There is another point of interess in the guerilla unit: the maintenance. I think that guerillas should be an unit of reach to any civilization, weak or srtong, that are at a extreme situation of loosing a war, so guerillas should have few maintenance, or even no maintenance at all.

This is very cool, I've been thinking about all of the points made in this thread and wanting to suggest them and here they all are. I have a couple of other suggestions of my own though.

1) Heavy weapons like Tanks and Mech Inf. should get something like a -75% penalty on their attack/defence strength when attacking/defending against units in Mountain or Jungle terrain. The Soviets in Afghanistan just couldn't use their heavy weapons because of the terrain and so were beaten by men with Kalshnikovs, RPG's and Stingers. The same thing basically applies for the US in Vietnam. If Guerrillas's attack a heavy unit in those terrains then they should get huge bonuses as well.

2) Regarding the whole sponsoring of Guerrilla thing, firstly the creation of Guerrillas when a city is captured like in Civ II should definitely be brought back. But you could also have the ability of a foreign nation to pay a certain amount of money (not prohibitively expensive because in real terms it's not expensive to supply Kalshnikovs and RPG's) to create Guerrillas from the citizens of the captured city. You should be able to do this even if the civ looses all its cities by keeping in diplomatic contact with an exiled government of that civ.

3) A Civ should have the ability to donate and sell units to other nations thus fighting a proxy war as the Soviets and US did during the Third World Cold War conflicts. Makes things much more exciting and a good way to wage war without incurring war-weariness etc. You could have leaks similar to discoveries of espionage activity that might make the nation against whom you are fighting a proxy war take action against you.

Just some of my thoughts, incidentally, not regarding guerrillas but workers, what about a canal building action to allow for naval units moving across narrow land bridges e.g. Suez and Panama. The action could take a huge amount of turns to prevent using it indiscriminately.

I think guerrilas should be weak in open terrian like grasslands and rivers but strong in jungles and hills.

Explain your idea of other civs supporting guerillas and exile leaders please calebtheripper...

A defeated CIV, that has lost all its cities, should be able to go in exile in a friendly CIV, and continue the struggle with economic, and military help from friendly civs, or allies! In some way like the norwegian government did when Norway was occupied by the germans 1940-45! (They operated from England)

:king:

I disagreed with you about the guerilla being only a mere defender. Guerillas, in my opion, should be able to defend the territory and also to recover lost territory. So if they attacked a city recently occupied by the enemy, they receive a bonus. Also, when in this situation, they could do other things such as infiltrating the city for trying to kill some soldiers, or sabotaging enemy vechicles or buildings.

Comrade Pedro, interesting idea. For simplicty reason, I would let these cities only be attacked in this way (so guerilla bonus still be applicable even in enenymy territory) if these are still under resistance... Then those guerilla's could still use their free shots to weaken the city garrison, possibly even recapturing the city. I think it makes sense: if a city is taken but the garrison is weak, it would take more turns before resitance ends, so guerilla's could try to take it back using their bonuses.

Take the cuban example: they were guerillas and they actually gain control of the country.

I understand your point. However, in this case you might be talking about revolutionaries, which happen to use guerilla warfare to reach their goal.

There is another point of interess in the guerilla unit: the maintenance. I think that guerillas should be an unit of reach to any civilization, weak or srtong, that are at a extreme situation of loosing a war, so guerillas should have few maintenance, or even no maintenance at all.

My suggestion was that guerilla's can always be built, even if you lack the resource for the basic superior unit (as now with Replacable Parts: you can build the Guerilla though you lack rubber to build the superior Infantry). They can indeed be less costly to maintain. Wouldn't that match your thoughts? But then again, they should have lower stats !

Jaca

A retreat flag, as I've suggested in another thread, would allow for one-move ATAR guerrilla units with retreat. Sounds about right, not?

And I'd like guerillas/partisans popping up when you capture cities à la CivII.

A retreat flag, as I've suggested in another thread, would allow for one-move ATAR guerrilla units with retreat. Sounds about right, not?

If you make it AHTAR (home terrain), I'm in. This indeed could solve that matter! My feeling now is : AHTAR and either retreat flag or free shot(s). Maybe a matter of taste...


And I'd like guerillas/partisans popping up when you capture cities à la CivII.
Interesting too, an not unlogical. I already mentioned elsewhere that resistors should/could be more active, destroying surrounding infrastructure. Or, as you propose, some would make guerrilla's popping up !

Open questions to you then:
1. What do you think about their stats? They should be worse then the regulars, no? Lower attack/defense/HP?
2. What about their "production"? Resources should not be required, shouldn't it?
3. Visibility in some terrain (forests, jungle, hills...)?

Jaca

The guerillas units should have about half the stats of similar foot units of the time. Additionally, guerilla units resulting from the capture of a city should all be conscripts. I like the idea of hiding in jungles and forests. I would add hills and mountains to the hiding factor. These units should gain their bonuses only in friendly or previously friendly territory. Thus, the computer would need to keep track of original borders for about five turns. After that, if the resistors can't take the city, it ain't theirs no more!

Although it may seem that the Vietnamese did pretty well against US troops, the casualty and kill ratios were enormous. Although exact statistics are not known, the best estimates put the kill ratio at about 6 to 1 and the casualty ratios a little less (once the Vietcong were injured they often died due to lack of hospitals). If units can hide (in forests, et.al.) then the guerilla unit would be fairly well served. It might be useful, however, to give it the same ability as my submarine idea.

That idea was that submarines would get to have a free bombard against any enemy vessel entering its square and then the sub would retreat to an unoccupied square. The vessel that was attacked would then have the option of going into the square, however, it might face another attack from another sub. If the vessel entered the square successfully and then went to the square (without knowing that it was there) that the sub was in, then the sub would be "discovered" and could be attacked normally. If the sub was hemmed in by enemy vessels and land (other than a friendly port) then it would remain in its original square (after the free bombard) and be revealed.

Guerilla units could have this one free square popping after a snipe attack, just like subs. The difference being that the guerilla unit would have to be able to jump to another hiding square in order to jump (i.e. it could not jump onto grassland, etc). If no square was available, the unit would be revealed.

How about simply giving guerillas a weak 1-2 space bombardment ability representing it's hit & run abilities. They could either attack as normal, or camp in defensive territory and harass the surrounding area (damage nearby units, destroy terrain improvements, or even a city improvement if they were lucky).

About the ex-territory i dont agreed with rouctme. He said that within 5 turns the conquered city turns into a non-resistance city. I think that time should be much more....
And what about guerillas that can actually infiltrate the city, only for spying it status?

I always thought Guerillas should operate like submarines. They could hide and attack all the same, with only a chance of being uncovered by enemy units. Battles would be fought normally.

In fact, when I first read about sneak attack in the C3C instruction manual, I though, "Sweet! Guerillas may actually be useful now!"

Just go in the editor and give them it.

BTW, thanks for the idea. I'm gonna use that in my mod.

I always thought Guerillas should operate like submarines.
I agree. Both should be able to occupy the same square as an opponent's unit, just like airplanes.
Reason:
Planes: there have been numerous reports of people somehow managing to fit themselves under a passing plane.
Subs: (mentioned in the subs Civ4 idea thread): Subs float deep underwater, where many ships can neither see nor attack them.
Guerrilas: Because of their hit-and-run tactics, they can disappear into shadows, so the enemy can't see them. While I'm thinking of it, you could (should?) limit their ability to do this based on whether their in home territory and the terrain their on (mountain, forest and jungle- yes; plains, grass- no)

Yeah, all Guerrilla tactics should be relationed with the type of terrain, and even with the familiarity of it with them...As it seems, guerrillas work more eficiently in their own terrytorries (mostly ex-terrytorries) than in terrytorries that they don't know.....

Not necessarily. Castro's rebel force was highly effective, and many of them were Mexican and South Americn. They also relied, to some extent, on the sympathies of the people to hide them.

But I do like the idea of "hide, bombard, and retreat" for guerillas. It's exactly how they behave. It might not make them winners, but a thorn in the side of a larger army.

Maybe that foreign rebels weren't locals, but there's got to be some kind of veteran to guide and to teach the others the best spots...either the rebels themselves explore to find these spots.

The idea of guerrillas as a suport of an army is not correct, i guess, because most guerrillas act on their own to complete their full objectives.....

....The idea of guerrillas as a suport of an army is not correct, i guess, because most guerrillas act on their own to complete their full objectives.....

I agree. I think maybe a more realistic model would be to simply fund guerillas in other countries. For a hefty price, you could set up a foco in another country, which would consist of a collection of 'barbarian' guerilla units that would cause havoc in the countryside and maybe even take a city or two. Nobody would know who funded the insurgents, but a spy action might reveal where they got thier cash and munitions from, leading to an international incident....

Yes, that's a great idea!!! Maybe a civ can borrow some weapons to this partie in exchange for future resources, for example.....

I think this would be a great idea. I think I would tie this to other ideas of minor civilizations. (Feel free to ask me to explain, if you haven't seen it kicking around.)

If a nation has undergone some kind of seperatist movement, then you could fund the new nation and help them get on their feet, through your intelligence agency.

And if the seperatist movement were just blossoming, you could use your espionage to help rock the boat. So when they finally seperate, you may even end up with a puppet regime. It would look like a minor civilization to other people, but it would actually be YOU.

@Pedro/dh_epic

Thanks y'all! I think the successful implementation of guerilla warfare in this kind of model would link to many other suggestions in this forum, definitely including minor civs (I'll list these below) I could see three main types of movements: nationalist/ethnic (where a minority in the empire wants to form an independent state/nation), religious (where a religious minority/majority rises up against an opposing/aethistic gov't), and political (where a group wants to topple the gov't in power in favour of another, more progressive/reactionnary, form). In order to have this work, though we'd need a few changes:

1. better intelligence agency: your IA should be able to tell you about movements of disenfranchised people in other civs, where thier bases of power are (where they have the most support) and thier likelyhood of success (based on thier total popular support, military capabilities of thier adversary, etc). Your IA could list three amounts you could donate to the cause (each representing a number of guerilla units/focos you could support), depending on your level of commitment to the cause.

2. Ethnicity This has been discussed in a couple forums, but here's my take on it: each citizen in your empire (1 point on your city) has a three-part identity: Nationality (what empire they belong to, i.e all people in german cities are german nationals), Ethnicity (what cultural group they belong to, i.e. the german populace in a city could be divided into germans, poles and hungarians), and Faith (what religion they belong to, i.e. blah blah blah...). A minority of any type could feel repressed by backwards policies of the government, become disgruntled, and provide fertile group for an armed insurrection. How the movement will react to you (if they decide to seek your support, or what price they demand) will depend on how well you mirror thier culture, faith, or political ideals (see below)

3. National Moods/desires Again, this has benn brought up in a number of threads under many names. Basically, besides the presence/absence of luxuries, troops and temples, your people should get upset when you lose a battle, sacrifice the lives of your citizens for a city improvement (and not just the people in the city!), or remain in an outdated system of gevernment. All of these situations should cause discontent in the populace at large, leading to insurgeants gaining more power. For instance, if you are still an absolute monarch when most of your neibours have switched to republics, republican movements may spring up to pressure the goverment to get with the times.

Once you have funded a guerilla movement in another empire, several things can happen.

-If the guerilla movement picks up force (wins a few battles, takes a city) city slightly sympathetic to the cause might become more so, causing civil disorder or even destroying improvements and attacking troops. Once things reach a fevered pithc, they may defect to the revolutionary movement

-If the guerilla movement falters, they might come back to you for more money, or a proposition to join them in thier war. Here cities under guerilla control may flip bac to the government in power. If the movement loses its last city while its influence is in decline, it will cease to exist all together

-If the movement reaches its objective (liberate the region it set out to, takes the capital, etc) it can be treated like a minor civ (think eritea/ethiopia), or if there are enough cities under its control, a full blown empire (think red china) that would be at your whim and mercy...at least for awhile...

-If the mother nation performs a counter-espionage missiona nd discovers that you are funding the insurrection, you may find yourself at war....

questions/suggestions/comments?