Well, the French now have an updated, and IMO more useful UU than they did pre C3C. With defensive bombard, the Musketeer is now argueable the best defensive unit compared to it's age. Also, there don't seemt to be many (or any) French SGs (until now).

Settings:

Victories (on): Conquest (a very aggresive game)
Level: Emporer
Accelerated Production: Off
Patch level: 1.15b
Map: Temperate, 4 Billion, Continents, Large
Barbarians: Random

Team (in order):

Gogf
Cizzlewalk
grahamiam
Commander Bello

Back to continents again? :D I'd be honored to continue my part in serving as a helping hand in the GGF series, count me in.

1.15 until my other SG finishes :mad:

Okay, 1.15. Now, how exactly do I uninstall the patch?

Anyone else interested?

I just realised, this should be GGF3 :lol:. Well, I'll eventually get CT to change it.

i'll play :) can do 1.15 or can upgrade to 1.22 if i can figure out how to do a dual installation. i think there's instructions around here that tell us how, just need to find it later tonight...

edit: any thoughts on demi-god instead?

I would be interested, but can play only at weekends for most of the time.
Also, could you be more precise about game settings and victory conditions?
As far as I understand it, there is only the Conquest condition turned on?
So, no Domination, Space Race, Diplomacy, Cultural, Wonder, Regicide or Mass Regicide, no Capture the Queenie?
What about Cultural conversions? And what about AI aggression level?
Furthermore, I found it to be very useful to have the Victory point scoring on (which I alway set to 987654 pts - it is just another means of intelligence, then)

Not a sign up.

Maybe an easy fix for the patch situation would be to install Conquests a second time into a different directory, then patch that one to 1.15b.

Haven't tried it personally, but have seen a few people say they do it that way.

Good luck.

Best way to do it is to rename your 1.22 directory, then unistall 1.22, conquests, 1.29 and civ III. It'll generate a few things under the original directory name, but these can be deleted.

Then install civ III, 1.29, conquests and 1.15 into a different directory.

I used this method to run 1.22 and 1.15, and have had no problems so far.

I'll just reinstall C3C.

I don't know about VP scoring... that way sounds sort of odd :p.

AI agression is set at normal. All rivals are random.

Yes, Conquest is the only victory.

Okay, I'll get 1.15b installed soon, and play the first five turns. I'm sure by the time we get to the fifth person, someone else will sign up.

well, if you figure out any way other than what Arizona Steve posted, please let me know :)

edit: found arizona steve's method sounds harder than it actually is. very easy, just some cut and paste and voila, 2 versions :)

Well, I just installed C3C, and reinstalled the patch. I'm about to play the game.

Now, a whiel ago either Tavis or Gobi Bear posted an idea:

Copy all of the files in your /Conquests directory into a file called "release." Install the patch, and copy the patched files in your /Conquests directory into a folder called "Patch." Now, when you want to switch between patched, and unpatched, just copy either the release, or patched files, and say yes to the overwrite message. I haven't tried this, so I'm not sure if it works, but it sounds good.

Okay, we are doing ten turns a piece, 20 for the starter (sorry, forgot to say this).

Log:

1: Found Paris, we have wines right next to it (seems French...)
Begin to research Writing on a path to Philosophy
Start work on warrior (explore)
2: zzz
3: zzz
4: zzz
5: Paris Warrior >> Settler
6: zzz
7: zzz
8: Pop a hut and get barbs, but see ivory (SoZ)
IBT: Barb warrior attacks our warrior, is killed (2/2), our warrior
promotes to veteran
9: zzz
10: Attack a barb warrior with our warrior, kill it (1/2)
11: Paris culture expands, getting a hut, gives us a map
12: zzz
13: zzz
14: zzz
15: zzz
16: zzz
17: zzz
18: zzz
19: zzz
20: Paris Settler >> Warrior
Move settler north toward ivory

Start Screenshot:

End Screenshot:

Dotmap:

And the save (Cizzlewalk is up):

Gogf! What utility did you use for the dotmapping. Beautiful work!

Thanks! I downloaded an image from CT that looks like that, and manually wrote in the numbers. Do you have PSP? You need it. If you do, I'll post it here.

PSP? I'm interested. Can you lighten the opaqueness?

nice start. fresh water everywhere! :)

any reason not to settle next to the pond to the east? saves us an aqueduct later. imho, maybe #3 1tile north and #4 NE 1 or 2 tiles so we get the river. the extra gold will help the early game research. i don't mind sharing tiles between cities, especially early since we won't get over size 12 anytime soon.

Got it. I'll go for dot 2 (SoZ start) and 3 (for expansion), but I'm more curious to learn about what we're missing by not searching the south. For the first time in awhile, I might not fight something on my turns.

How about #3 1 tile N, and 1 tile NW? #4 is fine, IMO. Why would we move it?

@Barb: PSP is Paint Shop Pro. And yes, you can change the opaqueness.

EDIT: Crossposted with Cizzlewalk. Sounds good.

Originally posted by Gogf
How about #3 1 tile N, and 1 tile NW? #4 is fine, IMO. Why would we move it?
sorry, just thinking we could work the river tiles earlier. i don't want to get off on the wrong foot here. i tend to like to pack them in :) also, i guess i'd like to work those river tiles as early as possible :) good for early money (hard to get) and good for early research (hard to do). however, you may know better how those early borders will line up.

Hm... That makes sense. I leave it up to whoever is playing when we decide to found those cities.

@Barbarslinger: Here it is:

i was thinking about this last night and realize i didn't explain myself as well as i should. the borders shown by the dot map take into account border expansion. however, since this is a conquest game, i was thinking we would want an early barracks or 2 so we could build-up a lot of vet warriors. borders will expand with a temple (60 shields) or a library(far off and 80 shields). instead of spending the shields on a temple to get the river, move the city NE 1 or 2 tiles as suggested, then build a barracks (40 shields) and 2 vet warriors(20 shields, 40+20=temple). continue building vet warriors till we find iron, then do the mighty warrior -> swordsman upgrade and take over one of our close neighbors. imho, with the min research we're doing on writing and the goal of conquest, this could prove to be a valuable path. however, it's just a suggestion. we should all agree on what path we need to take to get to our goal. i do enjoy AA warfare so i'm a bit partial :)

Okay, I got it now. Sounds pretty good. Okay, it's up to Cizzlewalk though.

Actually, I guess it's not. I've not been really reliable this week, but RL personal issues are too much right now. I need to call for a skip, but next time I play I promise to make up for it. Sorry again :wallbash:

No problem. I know what it's like to need a skip.

Grahamiam is up, and I think we know what he'll choose :D.

ok, got it. i like #2, just wanted to change #4 :) no worries, the ivory is ours and there's no way i'll get another settler during my turns without a granery ;)

first, the 2550BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ggf3_france_2550bc.sav)

Preflight check: 1 city, everything a-ok. Lower sci slider to 10% just cause I can. Looking to the north, the river does seem to make a nice northern boundary. Nothing to do so I hit space

T1: 2950BC Send warrior due north and we see a red border.

T2: 2900BC Warrior north again to get a better look. Still can’t see anyone even though I’m on a mountain.

T3: 2850BC Verify where we want #2. Move warrior north next to red border.

IBT: Paris warrior -> warrior; Northern border is Inca and they are up BW, Pottery, Wheel, WC, CB. I guess they know someone else :lol: I hold off on trading alpha as they don’t offer anything good (BW + 10g). I’ll wait till I know someone else and the price comes down.

T4: 2800BC Found Orleans on hill next to ivory. Set to warrior (5T). Rename northern warrior to “Warrior1” or W1 for this log. Warrior in Paris becomes “Warrior2” or W2. Move W1 north. 1st real decision to make. Can chop forrest in 3T, build warrior in Paris in 4T so 10 shield will go to a useless warrior build. Or, can build a barracks now, for a granary prebuild, and consume the chop that way. Ok, now that I’ve written this, that is what I’ll do. Reset Paris to barracks as a prebuild for granary.

W2 SE.

T5: 2750BC W2 SE, W1 N

T6: 2710BC W2 SE, W1 NW
Can get Pottery and BW for alpha, 100g, +7gpt which would be everything. Hold off on that trade.

T7: 2670BC Worker finishes chop, irrigates game. W2 E, W1 NW

IBT: 2 Inca warriors are separately passing by. W2 heads back to Paris to prevent sacking by 2 barb warriors that have shown up near Orleans

IBT: Barb warriors head for Orleans; Orleans warrior -> worker (5T)

T8: 2630BC Orleans warrior fortifies
Trades: Inca’s value for Alpha has dropped to 10g

IBT: Orleans warrior defeats both barbs, promoting to vet. Palace gets a new front door. Inca are building the Pyramids

T9: 2590BC missed recording a turn here. Sorry, had to help my son for a second and lost track.

T10: 2550BC Worker finishes irrigating the game, starts towards build a Northern Road


There’s a trade still available for Pottery from the Inca: Pottery for Alpha + 37g. We are 4 turns from finishing the barracks so I recommend we do the trade so we can switch to a granary.

pre-empire

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ggf3-2500bc.JPG

How many cities do the Inca have?

Commander Bello is up.

Originally posted by Gogf
How many cities do the Inca have?
4, including the capitol. there's good land to the west, with a game over a forrest/grass and a plain sugar near a river. may want to consider settling there next since we'll be able to do 5fpt by irrigating both those tiles and there's plenty of shields around.

Got the save

Pre-flight checks:
Empire:
2 towns.
Paris: 1 happy (h) / 0 content (c) /1 unhappy (uh). Next in 5. Barracks in 4
Orleans: 0 h / 1 c / 0 uh. Next in 4. Worker in 4.

Income:
128 g / +8gpt / writing in 20 (10%). Any change in research doesn't change anything (??)

Units:
1 worker, 3 warriors (0 at Paris, 1 at Orleans, 2 exploring)

Paris will get disorder with next citizen.
Since production change to Pyramids (not intended, just checked) is not possible, the barracks have been partially rushed by chopping? Yep, read the turn summary. It has been rushed for no reasons, since we are miles from granary (BW + Pot + 100 g + 7gpt would have been a good trade, since we've been at least 20 turns away from any successful attack on the Babylonians...)

Please, in that early stages of the game, don't let trades like this just pass by!

Pre-return changes:
Micromanage Paris to work on both mined tiles (barracks in 3, citizen in 10). This gives us +1gpt, as well.
Barracks will cost us quite some money while we are not able to make good use of them, right now :(
Any change of the barracks doesn't make sense at the moment.
At least, Paris is no longer in direct danger to get in disorder.

Changed the Orleans worker production to warrior (for later settler escort)

Current plans can be seen in picture below:
green circles: next cities
yellow lines: paths to next cities

End of pre-flights
***********************
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/planning-01.JPG

hmmm... picture doesn't show up??? :confused:
[edit2] disregard, wrong browser settings

barracks was a prebuild for granery. imho, get pottery while you can so we can switch. a barracks right now doesn't help and unhappy cit's can be dealt with via the lux slider.

sorry 'bout the deal not done, however, i was not willing to tank our economy for the next 20 turns for BW and Pott and give them alpha so early. we can get more once we meet others and the prices come down. we should have enough money in the bank to successfully broker for techs. also, based on the price during my last turn, the inca know someone who has alpha so we might as well trade it +128g for pottery + another tech if possible.

i do like your eastern city placement :)

<pressing return>

IBT
Babylonians move north to FoW

Turn 1 (2510 bc)
Worker @Paris => Elephant @Orleans for irrigation
Warrior 2: explore next settlement area, spotting next river, may cause another location for settlement
Warrior 1: explore northern Babylonian area

Checking income: writing will stay at 19, but research => 100% would gain us Pottery in 8 :eek: :confused:
Why doesn't the "§$"§($! writing change?

Anyway, I switch to 100% research on Pottery.
Paris changed to settler (-2 shields / in 5 - that is another -10shields), so the settler will have costed us 42 shields, but our expansion will be considerably speeded up.

Wake Warrior3 @Orleans and let him explore north.
Hope for no Barbs popping up next to our towns.

updated planning
green circles: next city locations
yellow dots: settler movements
blue dots: warrior movements

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/planning-02.JPG

<pressing return>

IBT
Warrior1 contacts 2 Iroquois Warriors at the Inca border
(note: I mixed up the Incas with the Babylonians in earlier turn reports)

Turn 2 (2470 bc)
Cautios Iroquois have Bronze Working, Pottery (! - should have known that one turn earlier!) and Ceremonial Burial. They don't know about Masonry, though.

Trading Alphabet with Incas for Bronze Working and 10 gold. Incas stay cautious.
Trading Masonry and 35 gold with Iroquois for Pottery and Ceremonial Burial, making Iroquois polite.

Warrior1 exploring northern Inca border region.
Warrior2 spots Barbcamp next to proposed city location
Warrior3 detects next 2 Ivories.

With some luck, we could have spotted a monopol ivory site.

By 100% research, Mathematics (SoZ) are 36 turns away.

Income
0 gpt, 112 gold, Mathematics in 36

Cities:
Paris: 0 units, settler in 4 (due to population), pop in 4
Orleans: 0 units, warrior in 2, pop in 2

<pressing return>
IBT
Incas found new city in fog of war.
Iroquois move west

Turn 3 (2430bc)
Warrior1 spots gems north of Inca borders.
Warrior2 explores W. We currently see a total of 4 Ivories. On large continents, this *could* be a monopol....
Warrior 3 spots another Barbarian coming up in camp and heads back => Paris. No attack, since this would wake the Barbarians and could kill our escort for the Paris settler.

They may attack the new city next to the Game later, and will do so across a river. This should result in them getting killed.

<pressing return>
IBT
Iroquois turn back north
Orleans Warrior4 (fortifies) > Warrior

Turn 4 (2390bc)
Warrior3 explores W, spotting desert
Warrior2 => Paris
Warrior1 explores NE

Mathematics in 34.

Updated planning

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/planning-03.JPG

<pressing return>
IBT
Iroquois => north and disappear in FoW

Turn 5 (2350bc)
Warrior1 explores W and spots next Iroquois warrior
Warrior2 => Paris
Warrior3 explores north, spotting cattle plains NE of city location 2 and Inca warrior and wheat on flood plains.

Worker starts irrigation @Orleans

We have some very promising areas around.

<pressing return>
IBT
Iroquois and Inca warriors move

Turn 6 (2310bc)
Paris: settler > warrior

Settler and Warrior2 join
Warrior3 => N

Orleans switched to Settler (pop in 8, settler in 13)
Warror1 => SE

Mathematics in 36 (100 %)

<pressing return>
IBT
zzz

Turn 7 (2270bc)
Warrior1 => E
Warrior3 => NW
Warrior2 combo => E

<pressing return>
IBT
zzzz

Turn 8 (2230bc)
Warrior1 => S
Warrior3 => W
Warrior2 combo => E
Worker => bonus grass south of Orleans
Orleans MM to irrigation

Mathematics in 30

<pressing return>
IBT
zzzz

Turn 9 (2190bc)
Warrior1 => E
Warrior3 => Orleans to fight unhappiness
Warrior2 combo => city location1

<pressing return>
IBT
Paris: Warrior5 (fortifies) > Warrior

Turn 10 (bc)
Warrior1 => E
Warrior3 => Orleans to fight unhappiness
Warrior 2 => N
Settler: founds Lyon

Lyon: Warrior

Mathematics in 21

End of my turns

Updated plans:

Rectangles: ressources to make city location4 to a powerhouse later (take notice of the mountains!)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/planning-04.JPG

CB's save (2150bc) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ggf3_france_2150bc.SAV)

Just some ideas:

I see Orleans becoming the site for the SoZ. Although I like wonders at the capital (for the nil corruption/waste), Paris will become our settler factory, I would propose (quite some good tiles there - the Game and the Wine give additional food to make settlers come early and we can speed up things considerably with a granary).

Until we get the SoZ and the proposed additional cities, we should spare any wars.
And after that, let's get the Incan Empire :egypt:

gogf is up, unless we find another player :) curious set of turns, cmdr bello.

Originally posted by grahamiam
gogf is up, unless we find another player :) curious set of turns, cmdr bello.

Curious? Why? :eek:

Not satisfied? :confused:

Got it.

Originally posted by Commander Bello
Just some ideas:

I see Orleans becoming the site for the SoZ. Although I like wonders at the capital (for the nil corruption/waste), Paris will become our settler factory, I would propose (quite some good tiles there - the Game and the Wine give additional food to make settlers come early and we can speed up things considerably with a granary).

Until we get the SoZ and the proposed additional cities, we should spare any wars.
And after that, let's get the Incan Empire :egypt:

I pretty much agree.

BTW, I think we'll just play with four players, I'll take the slot off the first page.

Originally posted by Commander Bello
Curious? Why? :eek:
Not satisfied? :confused:
no, just you went in a direction different from the rest of the team. :) for instance, gogf had clearly established a min. research run on writing (2nd tier tech), then go for philosophy asap. you changed it after we were 30turns into it for a 1st tier tech that was readily available via trade, and which you then later traded for. another, you bailed on the granery prebuild in paris while a pottery trade was available, then stated later that paris should be a settler factory.

this is why i considered it curious :)

i have no problem with the current direction we're going right now (max towards math, granery in paris, inca in our sights for later). sounds good :)

Log:

Pre: Nothing
1: Nothing
2: Warrior2 kills barb warrior in camp, no loss of HP
3: Warrior2 kills a barb, losed one HP, but promotes
4: Paris Warrior[ 6] >> Settler
Lyons Warrior >> Worker
Warrior2 kills last barb, loses one HP
Send Warrior 6 out exploringc
5: Orleans riots, I give them entertainment.
Fortify Warrior2 (regain HP)
6: Orleans Settler >> Temple (you can change if you want)
Warrior2 is fully healed, I move him easy
Attack a foritfied barb on a hill with Warrior 6, kill it but lose two

(out of three) HP. I see an elite Incan warrior ready to take out the

camp.
7: Move Orleans settler on a go to to Cmdr Bello's city 4 site, I don't

the Incans taking it.
8: Fortify Warrior 6 on a mountain.
9: Lyons Worker >> Warrior (you can change if you want)
10: Warrior 6 unforitifies, I move him south.

End screenshot:

Dot map one (non expanded culture):

NOTE: Numbers are in no specific order

It took forever to make CT's things smaller...

Dot map two (expanded culture):

NOTE: Numbers are in no specific order

Save is here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/GGF3_1725_BC.SAV).

I didn't know uploads were back...

nice set :) lots of free land available and CB's #4 site looks like a powerhouse. any opinions on changing Paris to a granery now so we can really start spitting out settlers?

really nice maps! very cool :cool:

Yeah, I guess that's right... It only takes ten turns to build a settler, but it also takes ten turns to grow the first time.

I think it's your turn, as I think Cizzlewalk is probably still envolved in RL ;). Just play whenever you can. If you're back, CZ, please post. Until you post, I'll assume you're still away.

Originally posted by grahamiam
really nice maps! very cool :cool:

Thanks. Here is the smaller CT thing I editted (it took forever!):

ok, i can't start for 5 more hours so Cizzlewalk has plenty of time. otherwise, i'll make it my mission to get that factory running as best as possible.

As I can see it, we only have enough food to do a 5T factory, but that's still pretty good. maybe we can alternate between 4T and 6T to optimize it, building a warrior every now and again.

Okay.

got it.

first, the 1475BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/GGF3_1475_BC.SAV)

Preflight check: looks good. Change paris to granary (8T). I wont be able to get a worker over to this area very soon to help so I’m not sure if it’ll by 100% ready by the time CB is up. MM for growth in Paris in 5T, granary in 10T. This will improve after growth as we’ll get 2 more spt and will finish in 8T anyways. Stop miner near Orleans and move him over to ivory to road. We’ll need the lux for the larger sized Paris. Warrior 1 will come home to protect CB#4. Keep temple build going @ Orleans for the happiness.

Inca and Iroquois IW, Inca up a lot of other stuff as well.

IBT: Inca boots W1 from Ollantaytambo into the direction of CB #4. Thanks! Those Inca town names are worse than the Aztecs

T1: 1700BC Move some warriors, Settler continues on his way

T2: 1675BC ditto, worker starts roading ivory

IBT: Lyons warrior -> warrior

T3: 1650BC New warrior heads due S from Lyons; found Rheims -> worker; Warrior2 attacks barb hut and dies without scratching the barb.

IBT: Inca building the Oracle

T4: 1625BC Move warriors. Inca now up WC and IW but neither will not trade either.

T5: 1600BC Paris grows, adjust lux slider, Math still in 3T

IBT: Inca take 25g, don’t worry Pacha, we’ll be back to collect soon enough

T6: 1575BC moving stuff, building stuff. MM Paris off woods and onto Wines to boost growth, granary still in 2T

IBT: Lyons warrior -> barracks (next player may want to change)

T7: 1550BC Math due in 1T, adjust sci slider to get an extra 6g

Research: math -> currency for now; Switch Orleans to SoZ; Paris granary -> settler

T8: 1525BC Don’t sell Math yet since Orleans is 55T from completing SoZ. I’ll wait till Orleans is making a couple more spt. Research is at -1gpt for now. Lyons warrior finds wines to the south. Switch research to IW since I’m not selling Math right now.

T9: 1500BC Warriors find barb camps to the East and West.

T10: 1475BC W6 finds many wines to the NW. Worker chops game forrest near Lyons to speed up barracks build.

Trades are available for Math but I held off due to SoZ slow build in Orleans. Can get Wheel and 175g from Inca or IW, WC, and 25g from Inca. I’ll let CB decide since he’s got the golden trade touch :)

MM'ing Paris right now won't speed anything up but can cause loss of gpt. settler should be done in 3T due to growth (hopefully the computer puts the new citz on the forrest). We need 1 more mined grass for Paris and it should be good to go as a 3-5 size settler factory. we'll need to do a warrior build now and again to let the pop catch up, preventing us from going under size 3 or 4. imho, it will work best between sizes 4 and 6.

Inca are pressing southerly pretty strong. imho, we need the next settler to go to the NE between Orleans and Rheims to stop thier flow.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ggf3-1475bc.JPG

HOLY CR@P!!!!

You didn't even give me time to comment and THE WHOLE TEAM played?!?!?! Man you guys are lucky :D
You guessed right though, I can't play until this thing is resolved and at this rate I'll be free by Sunday afternoon-ish. You've all done an awesome job thus far... but PLZ save some for me! See yaz guys in a few.

Originally posted by grahamiam
no, just you went in a direction different from the rest of the team. :) for instance, gogf had clearly established a min. research run on writing (2nd tier tech), then go for philosophy asap. you changed it after we were 30turns into it for a 1st tier tech that was readily available via trade, and which you then later traded for. another, you bailed on the granery prebuild in paris while a pottery trade was available, then stated later that paris should be a settler factory.

this is why i considered it curious :)

i have no problem with the current direction we're going right now (max towards math, granery in paris, inca in our sights for later). sounds good :)

Ok, please let my explain - just for the sake of our understanding about how the other one is thinking:
It wasn't my intention to spoil anything, or to carelessly changing anything someone before me has made his thoughts about already. Especially, since it is one of my main strategies as well to head for Philosophy (for the bonus tech AND the MoM <= which we should not miss!)
But, as I met the Iroquois during my turns and they were about to make contact with the Incans, I decided to get the max out of the possible tech trades, before they would do it.
So, I traded 2 tech of ours and 45 gold for 3 other techs (including Pottery for the granary at Paris and Ceremonial Burial, which I regard as being crucial in the early game for making people content and extending borders as well as city's productive areas).
I agree that it was a pity that I met the Iroquois the turn after the changes at Paris.
Anyway, since we didn't know about Pottery at that moment, the barracks pre-build wasn't that attractive. Furthermore, Paris would have lost the 3rd citizen's contribution due to the need to make him an entertainer.
In short, this have been my reasons for changing the path at that particular moment.
Again, this shall not be any start for a debate, just an attempt to explain my reasons.
-------

May I suggest that we change Gogf's location #6 one tile NE? This would give us access to the fresh water as well, but would save the forest for chopping. We would have two forest tiles (20 shields) available for a temple, and after extending the borders another two forests for a granary or a barracks.
The fact that town areas would be more overlapping than as by following Gogf's proposal isn't that bad, since that early in the game we won't be able to make use of all of those tiles, anyway. And Paris still has lots of good tiles to be used.

Next suggestion: As Gogf's map reveals, my assumption about the Ivories constituting a monopoly spot was wrong :(
There is another ivory 7 tiles NE of Lyons (next to the Barb camp). We shoud try to secure that Ivory as well. Nothing would be more frustrating as being outraced by the AI on SoZ.
Especially, as SoZ will make the Incan territory become ours in the future, thus giving us access to 2 additional luxuries. Then, we would have 4 native luxuries, which should be enough in the early game to cope with any unhappiness.

Just my two Euro-Cents

Wow... while I'm writing, you're exploring the world :-)

Who's up?

[edit] Since cizzlewalk claims to be out until Sunday, I got it!

I will wait some time in case that I broke the chain - but currently, we are just 3 active players, aren't we?

[edit2] Re-read. Yep, we are 3 active ones and cizzlewalk unpatiently waiting ;)

So, I got it!

Pre-flight checks:

Empire:
4 cities.:
Paris (2 h / 0 c / 2 uh); next pop in 1, Settler in 4, 1 warrior present
Orleans (1 h / 1 c / 0 uh); next pop in 6, SoZ in 53, 1 warrior present
Lyons (0 h / 2 c / 0 uh); next pop in 9, barracks in 11, 1 warrior present
Rheims (0 h / 1 c / 0 uh); next pop in 3, worker in 3, 1 warrior present

Unit count:
2 workers, 8 warriors

Income:
118 gold in treasury, -1 gpt, 0.9.1
Iron working in 10

Remarks:
What really thrills me is the speed of Incan expansion. In the same time in which we founded 2 cities, they founded 6 with one of those already being at cultural level #2 (Ollantaytambo)

Warning! Major changes ahead!
I would like to change research on Iron Working to something else. Explanation follows:
With an empire of currently 4 cities, we are not able to do a wonder race, build up a strong military (Swordmen), secure our cities, found new cities and do the rest of exploration.
The wonder race is a must for us, thus taking Orleans out of any other plans. Paris is going to spawn settlers and workers (who we bitterly need). The first settler available from Paris is to head to the Ivories between Orleans and Rheims, to avoid them being taken by the Incans. To prevent cultural flipping, that new town has to built a temple first, next to the mandatory warrior.
Rheims is struggling for everything and way off from being connected. By that, Lyons at the moment is the last and only city with some kind of flexibility.

Checking intellligence, I learn that we might trade:
Iroquois: Math <=> Iron Working, Warrior Code, 20 gold
Incans: Math, 70 gold <=> Writing
Totals up to Math & 50 gold <=> IW, WC, Writing, which seems proper to me.

Next I would change the SoZ@Orleans to temple (in 5 by next turn). That is to allow Orleans to size 6+ (under current conditions it would be stuck at 5). The SoZ costs 200 shields. Orleans currently produces net 3 and takes 20 turns for the 4th pop, if working on shield tiles. Only 2 grass tiles are currently available, which would have to be mined. To avoid the next pop there becoming a clown, we have to connect Orleans first. After that, I would irrigate (quicker than mining) the plains to the east and road them for the next city to be built. Then I would turn back to mine the grassland.

There is some kind of risk in this!
We don't know whether the Incans have access to Ivory in the black area north of our territory (currently they are going for Pyramids and Oracle, so they might easily switch)
Nevertheless, most probably they will get Math prior to us having finished SoZ, whatever route we take. So - under the assumption they would have / get Ivory - they would outrace us on SoZ, anyway.

I think, my proposal gives us the most benefit. Even if we would be outraced on SoZ, we could switch to MoM than (after the trades I would go for Phil).

I will wait some time for you to comment, otherwise I will go on this way.

[edit] Please take notice that we cannot check for potential Incan Ivory, since our own Ivory supply is not yet connected to our capital. So, this is unclear at the moment. But after having traded writing, we could build an embassy at the Incan capital to become more clear about this topic

1. I think I may have accidentally turned cultural flips off, because they were off in my last game for a test, and I just assumed that in the default they were on :wallbash:. Sorry :(.
2. I think we need the miltary SoZ can give us. So, we should change it to a temple if, and only if the Incans do beat us to it.
3. If we change from iron working it's a ton of wasted research.

Now, these are all your choices, so it's up to you to decide.

@Team: remember, over the weekend we are playing and posting at GCF (http://s4.invisionfree.com/The_Gogf_Civ3_Forum/index.php), because CFC is down.

@Gogf:

1. Things like that just happen.
2. The intermediate temple would enhance city radius, thus making it easier to irrigate the plains which will be quicker than mining the grass. Additionally, we will have 1 additional citizen there
3. We would loose our research, but gain additional techs and be up on the path => Philosophy again. As I tried to explain, the Incans will get Math anyway before we're able to finish on SoZ (except if they are going on Poly and get stuck there).

Bottom line:
At the moment, we are again at a crucial point with quite some potential - and some risks. We *could* loose on the SoZ, but if we would do so, we would have done in almost any other case as well. And if we do loose, we will almost sure get the MoM (in my eyes one of the most underrated wonders) as an replacement.
I just don't want to spoil the fun of this game for the team, that is why I'm sharing my thoughts right now. If the majority would plea for following the current path, it will be fine with me as well. Nevertheless, I would kindly ask to take my thoughts into consideration (see my posting above).
Currently still waiting for further comments.

[edit] And if we would loose on Soz against the Incans... well, they are our province, yet don't know about it, anyway :-)
In that case it would just be more necessary to get rid of them, wouldn't it?

CB, i agree with gogf. leave orleans as SoZ, just adjust the lux slider to make the unhappy citizens work for us. i agree to placing the next city to block the incas from taking the ivory. between orleans and rheams. this will also halt thier southern advancement.

we've only be researching IW for 2 turns or so, so i don't believe switching would kill us right now. however, i'd hold off on trading math till ivorys near orleans are secured (btw, that's why i did not trade it right away). writing is nice as it will get us on the way to some very useful tech's, kind of why I liked gogf's min research run from the very beginning.

@Cmdr Bello, the comments I made were because I really just wanted you to consulte with the team before making drastic decisions. this is a team game and we should all be involved. thanks for changing your approach :) it will make it more fun for all of us, including yourself, i promise :)

edit: regarding orleans, by adding a city to near the ivory and other at the knee of the river N of Paris, we will open up many more tiles for working. irrigate those plains (faster than mining grass), to get the shields and pop up. then, switch to a mined hill when convenient. imho, this should work well.

Yeah, I agree.

For those who don't browse GCF, Commander Bello posted the turns, and I got it ;).

Please be informed, that I will be off till Saturday, 15th of May, appr. 12:00 GMT +1

re: trading: maybe we can somehow get writing by trading math and then start reseaching lit or MM. i don't think the iroquios are too far ahead but the inca are definitely a concern. to deal with them we will need more cities producing more units than what we have now. maybe we gain techs via the sword.

barbs seem to be a common annoyance around us so maybe we can use them to our advantage and get some of our swords upgraded to elites. this means upgrading regular warriors to swords (something i hate to do) but, at this point, I don't see much choice. we don't have a barracks anywhere producing vet warriors for upgrade.

We'd need a barracks for the upgrading as well, wouldn't we?
Anyway, we have to claim that iron ressource west of Orleans, that's for sure. Until we've done so, we should pre-built some warriors to get quick, cheap units. Upgrading can be done with the money, we have (and hopefully, we will get some more at the next turns). Warrior => sword will cost us 60 g / each, so we will just be able to transform 2 or 3 of them.
That is, why I was going for warrior code to give us access to bowman and to hunt for BarbCamps.

yes, well, next settler due in 2T, right? city should claim the iron as you suggested. it'll be near paris so will be low in corruption and could build a barracks. lyons(? city SE of Paris) is also a good canidate for barracks due to all the trees around. chop 1 forrest to help hurry the barracks, then get the pop up to around 5 so we can make 5-7spt (vet sword in 5 or 6 turns, or an archer in 3 or 4).

need to know if horses are around also so the wheel should be a target in our next trade. chariots to horsemen is a cheap upgrade as well.

edit:
Lyons calc as follows:
1 City Center: 2fpt, 1spt
3 irrigated river plains: 6fpt (total), and 3spt(total)
1 forrest game: 2fpt, 2spt
1 forrests: 1fpt, 2spt

totals at size 5: 11fpt (+1fpt), 8spt (probably -1 or -2 for corruption, not good at figuring that out)

this city definitely should have a barracks.

I agree on Lyons building a barracks as soon as possible after we got iron. Until then, they should build warriors / archers. I am just unsure about the chopping of the Game Forest there. This seems to be a good tile, as it is right now, giving us both, 2f and 2s (and 2g).
About "Iron Village", I would suggest to build it on top of the hills, since there are just plains around, which we will need for growth.
We shouldn't forget about expanding our future powerhouse, either (is it Rheims??? - city at the mountain chain), which will require us to build a temple there for getting access to the bonus tiles. Further, it opens the path for a good harbor town some 5 or 6 tiles to the NE, IIRC (grass, hills, wheat).
Maybe, that Wheel can be got via trading.
Ah.. .there is just so much to do :-)
Interesting turns for gogf, I'd say....

ok CB, i edited my post. we have 3 forrests at Lyons so one of the others could be chopped and it should do well. as far as the iron city goes, i prefer the river (i always do, as one high level gotm player once told me "a river is a river is a river") but will leave it up to Gogf to decide.

Gr.. I forgot it was my turn, sorry :(. I'll play later today though :).

ok CB, i edited my post. we have 3 forrests at Lyons so one of the others could be chopped and it should do well. as far as the iron city goes, i prefer the river (i always do, as one high level gotm player once told me "a river is a river is a river") but will leave it up to Gogf to decide.

Is there a river? Or do you refer to the Orleans River? Orleans might need the fertile tiles later on to get access to mines on the mountains there.

For a conquest game, we have to keep in mind that we will have a lot of small, undeveloped / unhappy cities later on, so we should develop our core to powerhouses, when and where ever we can.

Another thought, which just came to my mind: Depending on our progress on the SoZ, the Wheel might loose importance, as we may expect to get Ancient Cavalry. TW we may collect later, either by trading or by peace negotiations. We should concentrate on not loosing to much speed in the tech race towards Philosophy, Literature, Map Making, I would propose.

[edit] for close cities, I would prefer the location #2, I once suggested for towns (somewhere N of Lyons, at a river as well). There are lots of forests for chopping, and plains, which are not so good for high population, so close distances are tolerable in the beginning. Some compromises have to be made...
But again, I don't look at the map, at the moment. So, it is up for Gogf's final decision.

Is there a river? Or do you refer to the Orleans River? Orleans might need the fertile tiles later on to get access to mines on the mountains there.
the river that goes from the mountain north of Paris. It goes NW 2 tiles then does a 90 degree bend and goes NE towards Orleans. I was talking about that "knee" which is the plain tile on the river (not your favorite spot, i realize). it will be close enough to claim the iron, will not require an aqueduct, and will allow us to work more river tiles. but, as you stated, the location is up to Gogf :)

I regret to inform the team that I am pulling out of the SG. Even though I never really got any turns in, I still just want everyone to know that you did a better job in my absense :thumbsup: . Good luck w/ the game Gogf and maybe I'll be back in time for GGF5 (yes, I do know this is number 3).

@Gogf About the Years of Rice and Salt units, you can postpone working on them if you've started. Sorry, but I'm going to need a lot more time to figure out just what is needed (and all have plenty of time when all I can do is use Word on the comp :sad: ). Thanks for the help anyways, I'll get back to you as soon as I can get on again!

:cry: Bye Cizzlewalk. I actually had, started working on it, but I thought it was "Rise of Salt" :lol:. I guess I need to be more awake when I read by PMs ;). Does this mean you are also leaving CZ2?

This reminds me about this game. Sorry, I had completely forgotten... again. I'm really sorry, I've had a lot on my plate lately, including a thesis for history. I can play this weekend, I promise though.

take your time. thesis' are much more important and i'm in no hurry.

Sorry to read this, Cizzlewalk and good luck to whatever occupies now!

To the others: who's up now?

gogf is up and will try to fit it in this weekend. i think we should advertise cizzlewalk's slot so we don't end up with too many turns per person. if it's ok for gogf, i can add a post to the SG signup sticky thread.

Sure.

(These characters are needed to get past the 10 character minimum)

ok, will do

Please be informed that I will available this weekend, on Wednesday / Thursday, and next weekend again.

Grahamiam, I'd suggest you prepare to take the save, if Gogf doesn't post his turns today....

[edit] Grahamiam, I think it's up to you to proceed.

Skip me :(. I had to something this weekend, and just found out my thesis is due tommorow :eek:! I don't have time to play, I'm sorry. But, school lets out soon, so I think this is our last thesis :).

ok, i got it. will play and post by Tuesday night (probably tonight, but we'll see). this should be alright for Cmdr Bello since he won't be able to pick it up till Wed's, right?

right (another right for the 10 chars)

first, the 975BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/GGF3_975_BC.SAV)

Preflight check: MM Paris off forrest onto wine hill (2T settler, 2T growth vs 2T, 3T); 2 barb horsemen are outside Lyons, how nice :) ; MM sci slider from 100% to 90% so we get +2gpt vs -1gpt, WC still in 5T.

Trades: Inca: Writing for Math + 69g; Inca now up MM, the wheel, WC, and Myst. Iroquois: WC & 31g for Writing

Set research @ 100% for Philosophy.

IBT: Lyons warrior -> barracks

T1: 1200BC New warrior goes to Paris for MP duty; Warrior6 explores

IBT: Paris settler -> warrior; Lyons warrior ->warrior

T2: 1175BC settler & war5 move out to claim iron. MM paris off forrest and onto wines.

IBT: Rheims worker -> temple; a barb warrior pops out of the fog to threaten the Tours workers.

T3: 1150BC settler/warrior pair continue on their way. Move warriors out of Orleans and Tours to cover workers

T4: 1125BC settler/warrior pair reaches destination

IBT: Barb warrior dies attacking across river and promotes out warrior to vet. The 2 barb horses move out from near Lyons. Paris warrior -> settler

T5: 1100BC Found Marseilles -> worker; Amazingly, Inca still do not have Phil due in 5T for us.

T6: 1075BC Chop completed outside Rheims to help temple along. MM Paris off mined grass and onto forrest.

IBT: Tours warrior -> warrior

T7: 1050BC workers working.

IBT: Maya complete Oracle

T8: 1025BC workers work on stuff
IBT: Unbelievable, we get Philosphy 1st [dance]; Take currency as our free tech! Lyons barracks -> archer

Research CoL @ 100%

An Inca settler/spear pair is moving past Rheims to claim all those BG’s and the fish :(

T9: 1000BC worker begins irrigating plain NW of Marseilles. Theres a pair of barb horses really annoying me on the mountain between Paris/Orleans/Marseilles.

Trade: Inca: Myst, Wheel, 87g for Philo. We have horses to the east and west.

IBT: Paris: settler -> warrior (to get pop up to 4 again and we can send 1 with the settler)

T10: 975BC I’ll leave the settler in Paris for CB to decide in regards to placement. Warrior9 is going to Marseilles. I was going to rotate the warrior out of Marseilles to cover the worker in case a barb horse pops out of the fog.

SoZ due in 16T

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ggf3-975bc.JPG

Got the save....

[edit]oops... wrong button... this posting is subject to editing right now...

pre-flight checks
geostrategic and tactical position
Our empire is located south of the northern tropic. We know about two other nations, the Inca and the Iroquois. Our expansion has lead mostly to the north, with some exploration done to the west and east. About the southern part of our continent, we almost know nothing.
The Incans seem to extend into our direction, about the Iroquois we lack knowledge.
3 Barbs located next to Orleans threaten our luxury lines from and towards Orleans. Cutting them would cripple max town size to 4.
We are currently running a deficit of -2 for Code of Laws in 11.
Cities
We have 6 cities from size 1 to size 4.
Unit count:
1 settler, 5 workers, 12 warriors. Our military is weak in numbers and quality.
current projects
We are in the race for SoZ (16t)
1 settler is waiting at Paris for orders
Things to change
Marseilles: worker(5) to warrior(5). Reason: there is a worker irrigating plains (2t) next to Marseilles. Since Marseilles will need 15 turns under the current conditions to grow to size 2, this is not much senseful. Changing the worker's tasks will waste some of his turns, on the other hand. The next workers will be produced at Orleans, after finishing the SoZ (13t) there, as Orleans will have it's maximum useful population (5) then.
Paris: warrior(2) to settler(8). Paris (size 4 in 1) is our settler factory. It will grow to size 5 in 6 turns, and settler will be available then as well. Escorts should be produced by the other cities, to allow for maximum settler production.
Settler combo @Paris => "sugar creek"-location. Located at river knee, with lots of forests for chopping.
Warrior12 @Lyons => Paris.
Plans:
The second next town should claim the horses in the east. After that, a settlement chain should try to reach the gems in the north, giving us access to the additional wines and the iron on the way, and at least one harbor.

--- will continue after barbecue :beer: ----

nice changes :) good luck!

nice changes :) good luck!

Good luck for the barbecue? :D

.... :band: [party] :sheep:

from the news...


German Barbeque Incident

By Phil Hudson

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Last week, a German man was rushed to hospital after a serious accident at a barbeque. The unfortunate incident occurred when he was cooking the final sausage for a guest.

Due to the high workload of the staff at the hospital, he was not seen by a doctor until yesterday. The doctor has now made an analysis on his condition, stating that he's taken a "burn for the wurst".

:lol:

<pressing return>
IBT
Barb attacks Orleans, gets killed
Incans withdraw from our territory
Tours: Warrior13 > temple for border expansion

Turn 1 (950bc)
Irrigation at Tours completed, roads.
Workers @Rheims: mining
Warrior6: explores
vetWarrior1 <> Warrior10 @Orleans
Warrior13 => Rheims
MM'd Paris for pop/settler in 4

Income adjusted to +2/CoL in 11 (no need to run deficits on the way to Republic. This is a conquests game, so our government will be Monarchy)

Unit count:
1 settler (1), 5 workers (0), 13 warriors (1 archer)
Production:
1 Archer, 1 Warrior, 1 Settler, 2 temples, SoZ
Income:
164 (+2); (1.9.0)

<pressing return>
IBT
Barb Horses approach worker at Marseilles
Barb Horses leave at Orleans, hunting for settler combo

Turn2 (925bc)
Worker3 => Marseilles
Warrior1 => Marseilles
Warrior9: fortifies @Orleans
Workers @Tour => forests for chopping
Warrior13 => Rheims, fortifies
Settler combo => S to mountains
Warrior12: fortifies @Paris
Warrior6: explores

<pressing return>
IBT
Barb Horses attack Marseilles, killing Warrior3, loosing 1 Horse
Incans still moving towards main Incan territory.
Lyons: Archer1 > Archer
Barb Horses stay at mountains east of Paris

Turn 3 (900bc)
Archer1 joins settler combo in forests N of Lyons
Warrior5: counter attack on redlined BarbHorse, killing it
Worker3: leaving Marseilles S
Worker1/5: finish mining at Rheims (temple in 13), start irrigation next to river
Warrior6: W

Unit count:
1 settler (1), 5 workers (0), 12 warriors (1 archer)
Production:
1 Archer, 1 Warrior, 1 Settler, 2 temples, SoZ
Income:
168 (+2); (1.9.0)

<pressing return>
IBT
Archer1 kills Barbhorses, promoted to yellow elite
Incans found Arequipa at "our" harbor town location

Turn4 (875bc)
Archer1 => Paris
Settler combo => Sugar Creek
Worker3: roading S of Marseilles (road connection to Paris)
Warrior5 => Marseilles
Worker2/4: chopping for temple at Tours
Warrior6: W

Build embassy in Incan capitol of Cuzco: building Sword. Incans have silk(3) and iron(1). Incans starting on Swords means a risk to us. We have to make some money and to go for a better government quickly.
Build embassy in Iroquois capitol of Salamanca: building settler. Iroquois have no ressources

Polite Incans(343g, Map Making, Horseback Riding, Polytheism) would sell Polytheism & 130gold (alternatively Map Making & 115g)for Currency. Agreed on Poly&gold.
Incans are going for Temple of Artemis.

Polite Iroquois(87gold) will give 87 gold for Mathematics. (They have no wonders under construction) Agreed.

Unit count:
1 settler (1), 5 workers (0), 12 warriors (1 archer)
Production:
1 Archer, 1 Warrior, 1 Settler, 2 temples, SoZ
Income:
289 (-2); (0.10.0); CoL in 7

<pressing return>
Incan warriors approach our borders at Rheims.
Paris: Settler > Settler
Marseilles: Warrior14 (fortifies)> Spear
Iroquois start on SoZ!!! :eek: But there is no indication that they could finalize it prior to Orleans. :p

Turn5 (850bc)
Worker1/5 join Worker2/4 on forests for chopping.
Warrior6: explores
Settler combo from Paris => horse grounds in the east

Unit count:
2 settler (1), 5 workers (0), 13 warriors, 1 archer(1)
Production:
1 Archer, 1 Spear, 1 Settler, 2 temples, SoZ
Income:
287 (-2); (0.10.0); CoL in 6

---- to be continued ----

<pressing return>
IBT
Forests chopped @Tours
Incan Warriors move towards Arequipa, avoiding to enter our territory

Turn 6 (825bc)
Archer1 => Marseilles
Warrior14 => Paris
Worker1/2: roading @Tours
Worker4/5 => Orleans
Warrior6: explores, spotting village
Settler combo => Lyons
Worker3: S for closing roads between Paris and Marseilles

Unit count:
2 settler (1), 5 workers (0), 13 warriors, 1 archer(1)
Production:
1 Archer, 1 Spear, 1 Settler, 2 temples, SoZ(10)
Income:
285 (-2); (0.10.0); CoL in 5

Thoughts:
In a single player game, I would change Paris (size3/settler in 7) to temple > Mausoleum, now. The Mausoleum has the charme to be cheap and add 3 content citizens, thus making the town it is located in an early powerhouse.
Any comment would be welcome.

The Save (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55267&stc=1)

<pressing return>
IBT
Incans declared war on Iroquois! :p This should drastically reduce the pressure on us - at least for the moment. As we can expect the Incans to be successful, in the long run this will make them more powerful, though :(
Arequipa bound Incans head N again
Lyons: Archer2 > Warrior (for mp-duty)
Barb Horse shows up at riverbanks near Tours.

Turn 7 (800bc)
Archer2 => Paris
Orleans reached maximum size(5), MM'd to SoZ in 7
Worker4/5 => Orleans hills for mining
Worker1/2 => Tours for protection
Chartres founded at Sugar Creek: Spear
Settler combo => horse grounds
Warrior6: spawns 3 Barbs

Unit count:
2 settler (1), 5 workers (0), 13 warriors, 1 archer(1)
Production:
1 Archer, 1 Spear, 1 Settler, 2 temples, SoZ(10)
Income:
285 (-2); (0.10.0); CoL in 5
Wars ongoing:
Incans <> Iroqouis

<pressing return>
IBT
Warrior6 kills 1 Barb
BarbHorse invades our territory @Tours, 2nd BarbHorse shows up at river banks

Turn 8 (775bc)
Settler combo => horse grounds
Warrior6 N for river protection and recovery
Worker1/2: stay at Tours due to Barb threat
Archer1 => Hills NW of Marseilles for Barb spotting - Barb camp seems to be in the last black spot
MM'd Paris for growth in 3, settler in 4. Still being unsure about proposed change to MoM there

<pressing return>
IBT
Incans declared war on Iroquois! :p This should drastically reduce the pressure on us - at least for the moment. As we can expect the Incans to be successful, in the long run this will make them more powerful, though :(
Arequipa bound Incans head N again
Lyons: Archer2 > Warrior (for mp-duty)
Barb Horse shows up at riverbanks near Tours.

Turn 7 (800bc)
Archer2 => Paris
Orleans reached maximum size(5), MM'd to SoZ in 7
Worker4/5 => Orleans hills for mining
Worker1/2 => Tours for protection
Chartres founded at Sugar Creek: Spear
Settler combo => horse grounds
Warrior6: spawns 3 Barbs

Unit count:
1 settler (1), 5 workers (0), 13 warriors, 2 archers (0)
Production:
1 Warrior, 2 Spears, 1 Settler, 2 temples, SoZ(6)
Income:
281 (-2); (0.10.0); CoL in 2
Wars ongoing:
Incans <> Iroqouis

<pressing return>
IBT
Warrior6 spots Incan Sword successfully defending against 4 unrecognized attackers
Incan Chasqui Scout at Vitcos (next to Tours)
BarbWarrior approaches Lyons suburbs
BarbHorses @Tours fortifiy

Turn 9(750 bc)
Lyons: Warrior15 > Archer (MM'd for archer in 3)
Archer2 @Paris => Orleans
Archer1 @Marseilles => hills NW, spots BarbCamp
Warrior15 kills Barb
Worker3 closes road connection Marseilles - Paris (very crowded during holiday seasons :lol: ) and => Lyons to close connection Paris-Lyons - Chartres
vetWarrior from Rheims attacks BarbHorse @Tours, gets killed :(
Workers1/2 still nailed down at Tours due to Barb threat
Warrior6: N, but spots nobody

MM'd Orleans for SoZ in 4

<pressing return>
IBT
Incans declared war on Iroquois! :p This should drastically reduce the pressure on us - at least for the moment. As we can expect the Incans to be successful, in the long run this will make them more powerful, though :(
Arequipa bound Incans head N again
Lyons: Archer2 > Warrior (for mp-duty)
Barb Horse shows up at riverbanks near Tours.

Turn 7 (800bc)
Archer2 => Paris
Orleans reached maximum size(5), MM'd to SoZ in 7
Worker4/5 => Orleans hills for mining
Worker1/2 => Tours for protection
Chartres founded at Sugar Creek: Spear
Settler combo => horse grounds
Warrior6: spawns 3 Barbs

Unit count:
1 settler (1), 5 workers (0), 13 warriors, 2 archers(0)
Production:
1 Archer, 2 Spears, 1 Settler, 2 temples, SoZ(4)
Income:
279 (-2); (0.10.0); CoL in 1
Wars ongoing:
Incans <> Iroqouis

<pressing return>
IBT
Chasqi Scout kills red BarbHorse in our territory, withdraws.
Code of Laws > Monarchy in 23 (Literature makes no sense with just 2 other nations known, GL has to be captured later; Republic would last 27, Map Making makes no sense without any harbor, Horse riding we might trade later, Construction doesn't benefit us yet, either) We have to get an better government ASAP (lots of money, but can't make good use of it)

Turn 10(730bc)
Archer1 retreats to Marseilles for recovery
Warrior 15 retreats to Lyons for recovery
Worker3 arrives at Game Forest near Lyons. Proposed road building from there: north towards Chartres (for next player)
Settler combo arrives at Horse City location! Don't move them any further, they have access to horses and wheat there!
Warrior6: N, spotting silks, Barb Camp and another new Incan town
Worker1: tries to escape from Tours, escorted by 1 Warrior
Worker2: waits for success of Worker1

Unit count:
1 settler (1), 5 workers (0), 13 warriors, 2 archers(0)
Production:
1 Archer, 2 Spears, 1 Settler, 2 temples, SoZ(3)
Income:
277 (-2); (0.10.0); Mon in 22
Wars ongoing:
Incans <> Iroqouis

End of my turns

Thoughts:
Still, we should discuss about Paris to switch to temple > MoM. As Orleans will have to race for barracks > temple first and already is approaching max citizen limits (even with lux slider), it would make more sense to build a settler there than to wait for Orleans to become able to build MoM.
Lyons is approaching max citizens limits as well, so there could be built a settler as well.
MoM at Paris would allow for a powerhouse in the future, since Paris has everything, it needs for that: 3 forests for temple rushing, rivers for unlimited growth, hills for later production (under monarchy), grassland for speedy growth....
I would like that to be discussed before the next player allows the settler to be built over there.
Furthermore, after finishing SoZ at Orleans, the forests there should be used to rush barracks > temple (barracks needed for the ACs, temple is self-explanatory)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55268&stc=1
The map: (http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=55268&stc=1)

hmmm.. map doesn't show up??? :confused:

nice set Cmdr Bello. :goodjob:

how many turns will the MoM take? can Lyons/Orleans/Sugar town replace the lost settler production? MoM is great but we only have 7 towns (8 next turn) and i'd hate to halt that. imho, we'll need 12-15 before we're strong enough to go after the inca. however, if other cities can make up the settler production, then let's go for it. we need to expand west as well to secure the lands to our south. maybe a town near the lake to the W and couple more extending our borders to the wine cluster to the NW.

one question, why are we building spears? imho, build warriors, connect iron and upgrade to swords, then disconnect and build more warriors. one reason i like building barracks is so that we have vet warriors to upgrade. imho, a sword is much more valuable than a spear in the AA. in the MA, i tend to only build knights and cav so maybe you like to have pikes and muskets to hold ground?

Thx, Grahamyouare :-P

MoM will cost 200 shields. Since Paris would need a temple (almost available if settler would be changed and forests would be chopped), it would have to start on it all over. Since there is no waste at Paris and we should be able to reach size 6 (7 with lux slider), I assume a production time of appr. 30 turns. This would go along with Monarchy, so we could finish MoM, and then switch government.
Doing so, we would loose appr. 5 settlers from Paris. OTOH, some of our current towns would run into their citizen limit, they could make up for some of the lost settlers. I'd guess that we would gain 3 or 4 settlers from those towns.
Nevertheless, the boost offered by MoM is enormous. That is, why I would plea for going for it. Especially, taking into consideration that the Incan campaign will require lots of units.
About the spears: they are meant as defensive garrison for our border cities later on. Depending on how the Incan-Iroqouis war turns, we might expect an Incan assault in the future. Nothing could be worse than loosing our cities on the first attack.
Optionally, the spears might be changed to archers, if the need would arise.
About your estimation how many cities we'd need for the Incans, I agree with you, as well as about the course of the next towns to be founded.
One remark about the upgrade procedure: As long as you don't have a very strong economy, it has been my experience that upgrading does work only for very few units and should be done only in emergency situations. Most times, I've found it more useful to rush improvements with money and to make use of the enhanced production capability of bigger towns. But, of course, this is very much dependant on the current tactical situation.
In the MA, strong defenders are needed, so the answer to your question is yes, I like pikes and muskets. Of course, a good balance has to be found between attackers and defenders, and I tend to have more attackers than defenders (let's say a ratio of 6:4 or 7:3 - again depending on the situation). One should never forget, that it takes quite some time to secure the recently conquered territory/cities. That can't be done just with attackers, even if they have the same defensive values as a defending unit. But the attackers have to stay mobile which is contradictory to using them for defense purposes....

re: MoM, i need to think about that more. i don't think this is a wonder building type game but i do recognize the value of that wonder. right now we only have 2 lux nearby, with a 3rd to the far NW, right?

re: economy: we have currency so we can build some markets now to help. i'm not suggesting switch everything to build them now, but we should put them on the list. and i think lit is valuable, not for the GLib but for the libraries themselves. we have a number of cities on rivers so we should be able to research fairly quickly thru the MA if we build enough.

re: military: i see that our approach is very different. i do not bother with "flat foots" (ie, pikes, muskets) except for swords and, later, infantry. during the AA, i usually build around 8 to 15 horses which then upgrade to knights. to me, the knight is just as good at defending as a pike plus moves 2x as fast and attacks 4x better. my ratio is closer to 10 or 20:1. i tend to hold current gains by taking more territory, quelling resistors with hurt units and allowing the healed ones to move on if forces are sufficient. the further the new cities are from the front, the easier they are to hold :) usually, i like to hit with overwhelming force (say 12-15 swords + 3-5 horses in the AA, 15-20+ knights in the MA with sword support or MDI upgrades) and then keep building fast units while attacking to replace losses. the "flat-foots" can follow behind, providing some defense in hot spots or quelling resistance in others.
the only exception to this in my approach is for amphibious landings. i will take at least 2 defensive units (preferable muskets during the MA) to hold the ground on the 1st turn at landing. after that, the defensive units try to keep up as best they can.

well, the thing you got to love about civ is that there are many solutions to the same problem. i'm sure both your and my approach will achieve the same goals. i've developed my current approach in an effort to achieve domination victories as quickly as possible (gotm jason score multipliers favor fast finishes) and have had a good bit of success. based on that, my opinion of "defender" units tends to be pretty low.

final comment: you noted that the inca and iroquois are at war. if it lasts for a while, we may be able to take advantage of it and hit the local inca cities, quickly taking 3 or 4 and then signing a quick peace. 277g = how many warrior -> sword upgrades? maybe with 7-10 swords and 2 or 3 A.C.'s, we can do this.

I agree about that this is *NOT* a wonder building game. I am not much interested in wonders, either, just in the effects of some of them. And here, I think that the MoM is one of the most underrated early wonders. I brought up the suggestion to think about it since Paris' location is almost perfect for MoM (no waste, river, grass, hills, mountains..). Furthermore we have to take into consideration that it will take quite some time to get us access to the third luxury in the north, if we would manage to get it at all.

I agree about the libs as well, although we have to take into consideration that our little empire is limited in regards to capacity: We just cannot build libs AND markets AND units. Not now. But, all of them have to be on our list.

About the flat foods (nice expression, btw): Here indeed our approaches seem to be different, what doesn't mean that one is more valuable than the other. I agree to the value of fast-moving attackers and for that reason, make only small use of swords and MIs, whom I will use just for counter attacks on redlined and stacked enemy units next to my cities. For attack, I prefer horses, knights and cavalry. Sometimes I add a stack or two of arty-type units, escorted by defenders. Why I prefer to have some "real" defenders is just, because most times they are cheaper than fast attackers and because a garrison has to be a garrison - a garrison is very rarely to be moved. The "back and forth" approach of fast units works.... if it works. This means, there are quite some circumstances needed for that approach. The attackers have to have the chance to go to the front or back for recovery in one turn. Sometimes, this will not work. And then, you need more of the attackers to attack AND to quell resistance and perform military police duties, which means that you're using more shields for the same task.
I've just learned that a good mixture of the military makes for successful campaigns, but this may be discussed based on the situation.

About upgrading: each warrior > sword upgrade will cost us (30-10)*3 gold, so with 277 gold we would just be able to upgrade 4 warriors, thus spending almost our complete treasury, losing the chance to rush needed improvements as temples, markets, libs, barracks...

But again, all of this may and should be discussed, based on the current situation...

thanks for the upgrade calc. i didn't know what it was and it's nice to see that it's very straight forward :)
ok, guess gogf is up!

re: MoM... temple + MoM = 260 shields ~ 8 settlers. this is why i'm hedging. imho, we need those 8 towns very badly. our early growth was very stunted so i feel this compelling need to make up for it. with other cities chipping in the estimate 3-4 settler over that time, we will be a very strong empire, able to take over this continent, research faster than anybody, and build units faster than anybody. all those cities plus SoZ will make us very tough and will give us the flexibility to build markets, libraries, units, wonders, etc. just my $.02

Again, I agree with you. As you see, I understand and share your opinion to quite some degree.
We need cities. That is, why I didn't switch to MoM.

Nevertheless, as a last input for Gogf's final and wise decision, MoM will be like an early cathedral, with the added benefit of contributing to our treasury later. So, the added value of it would be culture (makes negotiations with other civs easier) and gold, which (as far as I'm not mistaken) adds to the net(!!).

But, again, as I see the need for cities as well, I won't have any bad feelings if Gogf's going for the settler.

maybe the HG would suit us better in this situation. 3 contents + 1 content in all other cities for the price of 100 more shields. it would be like getting another luxury resource but Paris would probably have to wait till the expanding phase is done to build it.
in retrospect, looking at the map, it's a shame Lyons wasn't placed N of the game. with the irr game and sugar, it would have been able to produce +5fpt, thus another settler factory which would have freed-up Paris for the MoM. well, hindsight is always perfect so no need to dwell :)

gogf is up!

Got it.

(Too few characters :()

Everything's allright with you, Gogf?

Gogf, if you're still looking for a replacement I would like to join. Please drop me a message one way or the other.

Regards,

jb

we're looking :)

Ok, are ya'll running C3C 1.15b or 1.22?

I'm not sure if this is thread that switched in the middle and it's easier just to ask than to search. :D

BTW, why does there seem to be some aversion to installing the 1.22 patch?

jb

we are using 1.15b. the aversion to 1.22f comes from the fact many people are already in SG's using 1.15b.
in order to expand my horizons :) , i've done a dual installation. you may want to consider it.
if it's ok with everyone, jb can take the turns after gogf is done. i've got personal business this weekend and, after Friday, won't be available to play till Monday. if gogf and jb get done before that, Cmdr Bello and I can swap to get this thing rolling again.

For me it is ok to get jb into the boat ....
As I will be off to Switzerland in some hours, it would be quite o.k., if jb would take the save from Gogf. Then, I could take over from him at the weekend, and grahamiam could continue on Monday.
Btw, the aversion to install 1.22 is caused by the incompatibility between 1.22 saves and 1.15 games. As far as I understood, except for the railroad bug nothing was fixed in 1.22 (compared with 1.15), but they decided to get rid of the Radio-tech... for whatever reason.

So, the whole gang now is waiting for Gogf?

Skip me :(. I have a science project that counts as our exam due Friday, and it is killing me.

@JB: You're in :).

@JB: You're in :).
not only in, but up! :D

i think Cmdr Bello and I came to the conclusion that Paris should keep pumping out settlers for now rather than switch to a wonder build. also, CB has a settler/warrior pair in position for a new city so just settle right there. SoZ should be ready soon and we are trying for Monarchy in regards to tech.

good luck and feel free to post questions :)

Good luck to both of you: Gogf for the exame, jb for his turns :-)

OK, I got 1.15 and 1.22 up and running.

Just wanted to verify that you left off with 730 BC.

I got it.

I'll be able to open it up tonight but I want to read the thread. My goal is to finish up by Thursday or some stupid early hour on Friday morning.

Save GGF3_550_BC.SAV (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/GGF3_550_BC.SAV)

Read through thread and here are my thoughts...
Pump settlers from Paris to grab land and generate income.
I like swords and spears. Swords are great in AA and spears upgrade through MA. But we also need some Archers for Barb slaying so I'm going to go for a mix of units and let the rest of you put them to use.

277g w/ -2pgt, Monarchy in forever (22 turns) :king:
Research pegged at 100% which puts lux at, you guessed it, 0%.
MM Paris to get settler and growth in 1
Lyons making 7spt is perfect for Spear/Arch/Cat (I'll stick to the things w/ feet for now)
Not sure why Tours and Rheims are building Temples but I assume we're looking for expanding boarders and no immediate hassle from our warring neighbors.
BTW, we already have wines so going for the wines in the NW won't help in the Lux department.

<Deep sigh and hit return on first SG turn>
(IBT) Incas move around and a barb horse is running around in the North and another shows up in the west.

(1) 710 BC, Found Avignon. Growth in 10 -> worker (We seem low on them)
Dispatch barb horse w/ elite archer.
Worker to road near Lyons

(IBT) Incas dance, barb horse in north retreats, volcano in SW barfs on barb village. I weep for them.

(2) 690 BC, Lyons arch -> spear. Move out arch to explore to east.
Move elite arch towards barb village.
Vet archer (2*4) in north attacks barb horse across river (1.25*2). Flawless victory.
Exploring warrior has even chances in NW to club barb village on hill. I pass it up to explore and let the barbs hassle in Inca.
Paris is still pegged for food and gold.

(IBT) Nothing much

(3) 670 BC, SoZ is built in Lyons. With 8 spt I set it to barracks in 5.
I move an acher up towards Rheims because there's a lot of Inca and Iriquois warrior activity and we just have a warrior defender.
Elite archer kicks barb camp into dust and gathers 25g but is redlined.

(IBT) Nothing

(4) 650 BC, Retreat elite arch to hills to heal. Exploration east finds another barb camp. These things are like rats!

(IBT) Pachacute demands CoL! Argh! :mad: I hate giving into demands and agonize over this for some time. I'm just about to tell him to pound sand when I'm told he has swords. I have nothing to stop swords up by his territory and I'm outnumbered. I cave. It now comes to mind that I have totally ignored trades! With CoL in hand I should have tried to shop it around on turn 1. I later discover that there is no deal to be had w/ the Inca and the Iriquois have nothing to offer. That remains the case for all my turns.

(5) 630 BC, zzzz

(IBT) zzzz

(6) 610 BC, Harvest barb in the east for 25g
Fortify elite archer to heal on hill
Move unit to Tours (Inca swords are running about)
Send settler from Paris south w/ spear

(IBT) Inca build the HG. I guess we'll be getting that later.

(7) 590 BC, Move exploring warrior in NW towards goody hut
Move next Paris settler out w/ a warrior escort

(IBT) Celts build ToA

(8) 570 BC, Lyons (SoZ) spits out an AC. My first. His horse looks like my mother-in-law.
Lyons spear -> arch
Move settlers S and SW
Warrior pops hut and gets maps. Pink boarder to the N & NW. We'll move that way.

(IBT) Barb horse move in by settler w/ spear escort. Barb villages to the south look loaded.
Orleans riots! Rats! Juggling warriors to escort my settler and I didn't check the cities for attitude. My hope was to get through this first turn having done no harm. *Hopes dashed* :cry:

(9) 550 BC, Found Besancon w/ warrior escort. This is risky.
I retreat the other settler moving south to the mountains and bring in a spear and our AC one step behind. I guess I'm thinking of doubling the escort and letting the AC feed on barbs.
Elite arch is healed and I move him towards Besancon. He'll get there too late if the barbs decide to sack it.

OK, I'm not sure how I did it but I managed to only take 9 turns. Such is Civ.

Final stats...
9 Cities
1 settler
5 workers
13 warriors
3 archers
4 spears
1 AC

306 gold in the treasury w/ -3gpt. We're below our allowed number of units so I managed to add maintenance costs w/o increasing income. What was I building those roads for?

nice set jb. i can take it and will play 11 to even things out. post a pic if you can so we take a look at progress.
wines to the north are just to keep them from others. the long term goal is those gems and to backfill behind the wines so we have enough cities to take this landmass :hammer:

tough about that demand for CoL but you made the right choice. we're not ready for war yet but the inca will get thiers soon enough :evil:

I know I saw a nice tool to grab screenshots. I'll look for it during my staff meeting so that there's some productivity. Once I'm back home I'll try and get a screenshot or two posted.

Brief description...
Lyons is burning but that will end next turn. My 5 turn barracks became 6.
More of the map is uncovered in the NW. Pretty unremarkable terrain but I found the coastline and see the edge of our next contact.
More of the map uncovered in the East and found the coast.
To our South we have more than a couple of barbs and one visable camp. I think there's another one to the SE.
Infrastructure is a bit improved.
- More roads through our forest/sheild cities for gold
- A few irrigated squares and a mine or two

BTW, Iriquois are far behind us in tech and broke. The Aztecs are 3-4 ahead. Both are polite but the Aztecs did extort us. I'm glad they appear to be first on the menu.

I don't want to overextend but a coastal city to build a curragh is needed to skim the shorelines and make contacts.

while in the game, zoom in or out with "Z". get into position and then hit alt+print screen on your keyboard. alt+tab or hit your windows button, open Paint that comes with windows, and hit ctrl+v (paste). save file and then attach. no problemo :)

i'll look at what we can do about getting exploring ships. we do need to meet more people cause the ones we got are lousy. you say the aztecs are up 3-4 tech? which ones? do they have construction yet?

sorry jb, forgot to add that you must save the picture as a .gif or a .jpg ;) i will play and post tonight

The save is attached below this post

I played 11 turns to even things out. We have Map Making and Monarchy but I didn’t revolt yet (waiting for a settler in 1T). Inca are in the MA :(

Preflight check: Paris is building a barracks for some reason. Switch to warrior (1T) so it can get back to settlers. MM Tours off non irrigated river plain onto irrigated river plain. Rotate 1 warrior out of Marseilles towards Besancon since there are lots of barbs in it’s neighborhood. Move the reg warrior out of Paris onto a forrest to try to bait the barb horse away from the spear/settler pair on the hill.

4 barb horse and 1 barb warrior to our SW

Notes: Inca up MM, HBR, and Monarchy. They are a Monarchy right now.

IBT: Paris warrior -> settler (MM off irr game onto wine hill, growth still in 1T); Tours temple -> worker (to improve Rheims area); Marseilles worker -> market; borders of Rheims expands, MM off wheat and onto river plain to shave 1T off spear build
Inca building MoM; SoD of barb horses remains static.

T1: 530BC Reg AC kills barb warrior. Extra spear joins settler spear pair with the other spear fortifying on the mountain. Rotate spear between Orleans and Marseilles towards Paris to escort next settler. Worker pair near Chartres finishes road, moves to sugar. The 2 archers automove. Please try your best to avoid doing this :) . Worker moves to connect Besancon. MM off wheat and onto river plain to shave 1T off spear build. Adjust sci slider to 90% (Monarchy still in 10T). MM Orleans off River grass and onto mined hill to slow growth. Marseilles then uses this BG to shave 9T off market build.

Warrior 6 has met the Arabs and they don’t look too happy with us. They are down Alphabet! They have iron connected. Trade Alpha to them for 125g. Inca still won’t part with a tech.

IBT: Orleans barracks -> warrior; Lyons archer -> archer; Avingnon worker -> warrior

Inca complete MoM in Corihuayrachina (geez, hope we can get that city just to change its name)

T2: 510BC Vet archer moves out of Lyons to barb hunt; workers near Marseilles mine river grass; worker near Besancon roads; elite archer near Marseilles moves into town; workers road sugar near Chartres, move Lyons worker to tile S of sugar to connect loop; AC heals, spear and 2 settlers move S (out of range of barb SoD but next to 1 barb horse)

IBT: barb horse dies on our spear; Rheims spear -> granary (I think this town can fill our southern flank if we let it)

T3: 490BC settler/spear trio go S, worker near Avington irrigates the wheat, workers near Chartres irr sugar; warrior 12 moves next to barb camp south of Besancon; move spear out of Paris, I’m gonna try to sit him on a hill next to the barb camp to see if I can get them to kill themselves.

IBT: SoZ produces vet AC, Orleans warrior -> warrior

T4: 470BC settler and spear move to hill after ¾ spear investigates area, move warrior onto hill next to barb camp; Vet AC moves to Tours as a deterent; reg warrior moves out of Orleans to gain experience barb hunting; elite bow fortifies in Marseilles; move worker pair to iron hill (time to connect); worker near Besancon irrigates roaded plain.

IBT: reg warrior next to barb camp kills 1 barb horse and redlines another before dieing; Lyons Archer -> archer; Tours worker -> market (insanely long time but could be a library prebuild) also Tours’ border expand and we are seriously pressuring Vitcos; Chartes archer -> temple (bah, irrigating that sugar did nothing, will have to mine it now, wasting 4 worker turns :( )

T5: 450BC MM Paris off forrest and onto mined grass for 4fpt and settler still in 2T; reg AC attacks barb camp, netting us 25 big ones, Found Rouen -> temple; workers between Chart and Lyons mine sugar and irrigate plains

Trade Philosophy and Poly to Iroquois for Map Making and 27g

IBT: AC defends against 2 barb horses, promoting to elite!; barb horse pops out of fog and interferes with worker near Rhiems; Archer outside of Lyons defends against barb warrior; Orleans warrior -> warrior

T6: 430BC Archer in Rheims kills barb horse, promoting to elite (2/5); archer south of Besancon kills last barb horse from SoD; spear moves out of Tours to protect elite archer;

IBT: iron road completed; spear protecting elite archer kills barb horse; AC defends against barb warrior; Paris settler -> settler

T7: 410BC Warrior6 leaves barb camp on hill to the far north alone so they can mess with the Inca; Upgrade 2 vet warrior in Orleans to swords and upgrade 1 reg warrior there also (for barb hunting); move warrior out of Marseilles to mountain across from a barb warrior that would have to attack across a river(looking for promotion); workers don’t mine the but move to a river grass instead; Move settler NW towards horses with spear for Besancon covering; worker near Bensancon finishes irrigating plain and moves to another plain for irrigating, vet warrior moves out of Paris towards Orleans for upgrade; mine and irrigation finished between Lyons and Chartess so I MM Chartess to get pop up, slowing temple build by 4T but doubling growth rate. Elite AC will go home so other AC’s can promote

IBT: reg warrior defeats barb warrior but is redlined (no promotion); Orleans warrior -> sword; Lyons archer -> sword; a barb horse parks on the hill next to Rouen;

T8: 390BC MM Paris off forest and onto river grass (+4fpt, +5 spt); reg sword moves out of Orleans for barb hunting; 2 vet swords move to Lyons; upgrade vet warrior;

Inca have construction and are now in the MA

IBT: SoZ makes another vet AC

T9: 370BC Move vet AC out to barb hunt; irrigating around Chartess and Lyons (I thing Lyons should be size 5 to get more spt); sword finds barb hut; upgrade another vet warrior; MM Paris off mined grass and onto forest (+3fpt, +6spt); adjust sci slider to 60% (Monarchy still in 2T, +19gpt)

IBT: Iroquios and Inca sign peace :( ; Besancon worker -> temple

T10: 350BC reg sword disperses barb camp, promoting to vet; MM Lyons off forrest and onto irr plain to promote some growth (sword still in 3T); irrigate wheat near Rheims; finish road near Marseilles; adjust sci slider to 50% to get +20gpt;

Monarchy -> Lit (8T, -1gpt @ 90%, no one has it yet), hold off on revolt till settler done; Avignon warrior -> temple

Vikings complete GLight; Inca cascade to the Great Wall but are not finished yet

T11: 330BC Archer kills barb horse on hill near Rouen; vet sword heads home; vet AC looking for barbs in the southland; interesting, Orleans has grown to size 6 and has 3 unhappy people. It is 2T from a sword so I try to hire a taxman but it’s gonna starve. I raise the lux tax to 10% (now we are at -7gpt). After the sword build, next player can build a worker. MM Paris to get +4fpt and +6spt, settler still due in 1T. Move warrior out of Rheims towards Orleans for upgrade. MM sci slider down to 80%, lit still in 8T but now at -3gpt. This may screw us up cause Paris will drop to pop 3 next turn. However, it may not matter if the next play wants to revolt. We have an extra 2 units at the moment so we are pay 2gpt in upkeep for that. Will let the next player decide if we want to disband.

Imho, settler/spear pair has reached their destination but next player may want to move so all 3 wines will be in city radii during expansion. Rheims will have it’s granary in 7T and will grow in 7T so please remember to switch to river mountain for 1T so the granary is filled before growth. I think this town can then start building settlers to fill in our southern area.

Inca are willing to trade HBR for 16gpt and 166g, too rich for me, especially considering that the Arabs and Iroquios have no gold to give us.

As for military, we are really too weak to take on the Inca. However, it may be possible to pop a couple of cities and try to sign a quick peace. It would be better if we could get the Iroquois or Arabs involved but both of them are more pathetic than us.

If next player revolts, please do so after settler finishes. You may want to consider finishing the 2 swords in Orleans and Lyons as well. Temple and market builds are around but you may want to switch. I was thinking they could be a useful prebuild to Libraries if we wanted those instead. A pair of archers are to the south to deal with the barb camp down there. You may or may not want to destroy it because someone else will be in the MA soon so we can expect a massive barb uprising at that time(that’s why I’m hunting all BV’s close to home. Good luck :)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ggf3_330bc.JPG

this is our army right now. would be nice if those warriors could all be upgraded but the civ's we know right now aren't helping much with the gold.

- I'm pretty new to playing this with any but the least amount of strategy so this is just going to be a bit of a rambling stream of thought -

At this point I would start thinking when to attack the Aztecs and how that affects our expansion.
Attack
We get an AC every 5 turns and can build from swords backwards, including cats.
The Aztec are in the Middle Ages and should be able to muster pikes soon and knights in the not to distant future if they set their mind to it.
In 40 turns we would have 8 more (11 total) AC, numerous swords and be in a monarchy. I'm not sure what to expect from the Inca.
The Iriquois and the Arabs shouldn't be a threat. Off continent AI's shouldn't be able to place a fighting force on our soil and are likely never to get it right if they could.

Build
We'll shortly have our 11th city.
There's room to grow in the W, S and E and limited opportunity to the N.
We can still place cities to the south that are close to the capitol.
The Diamonds in the NNW are quite a distance off and we'll loose any city we put there if we war w/ the Inca. Hooking it up will be another issue.

Since we went to the trouble to get SoZ and we have so many warriors around to upgrade, if desired, it seems like our best time to strike is not too far off. If agreed upon the next considerations are the goal of this war and what force/infrastructure we should be building to support said campaign.

Again, I'm new to playing w/ much thought in mind and I have thick skin. Please let me know if I'm off my rocker.

your not off your rocker at all :) we need to seriously consider putting a dent in the inca before they get too far away from us. however, do we do it now or wait till chivalry? imho, it will take us a very long time to get to chivalry since the local AI's are fairly useless and we probably don't want to make Pachu too rich. we may luck out and the Iroquios research Construction before Monarchy, thus giving us a viable trade option.

if we do attack the inca soon, i don't think it could be a protracted war. maybe 3 or 4 cities at most. however, that would just let us expand a little, which, as you pointed out, we can already do without war. i don't think the local cities we could take are adding that much to his coffers.

Just returned home from Switzerland, and being eagerly reading. As far as I know, I am up, and will grab the save tomorrow, if noone intercepts me.
As far as I see it, we shouldn't upgrade ALL warriors. Some of them will just fulfill mp duties, and we should save some money to hurry improvements after having switched to Monarchy (which I strongly suggest, as any waiting will won't benefit us, but inflate the anarchy times, instead).

Nice jobs done by you, jb and graham! :-)

yes cb, you are up! good luck. also, it's ok with me if you want to play some extra turns since you'll be the one saddled with the anarchy period :)

ahh... you guys are so quick with posting...
My reply from above was *before* the last two comments of you.
I agree with considering war against the Incans in the near future, but I would like to have Monarchy first. Furthermore, we shouldn't wait for Chivalry (which all the others will get prior to us, at it seems), so that we can make the best use of our ACs.
Just my 0.02 EURO :-)
[off for dinner after 360 miles of driving]

i agree with you, cb. revolt to monarchy 1st, then go after inca asap. we'll need the extra production. also, AC's are best against spears and swords plus we have 1 elite atm.

You could take Arequipa and take/raze Victos and wait for the counter attack in the mountains and across the river. Once we have a better understanding of their strength, based on the counter, then the hills/mountains in the East look like a nice approach route into their lands for more valuable targets.

With enough units you could come in from the West once Inca forces where overextended on the counter. But I don't think we'll have enough units to pull that off.

BTW, Arequipa gives us that port city we need.

Yes, Corihuayrachina needs to be renamed. How about "Cori"?

Last thought, put a setter/escort up by the daimonds to settle just post war.

Yes, Corihuayrachina needs to be renamed. How about "Cori"?
or bellograd, gramytown, gogfville... sorry can't think of one for jb1964. maybe beatlemania? :lol:

Haha, Johnstown works for me.

pre-flight checks:
Unit count:
1 settler, 9 workers, 11 warriors, 7 archers, 5 spears, 6 swords, 3 ACs (42 of 40 allowed)
Our units are quite dislocated at the moment, but this has been caused by Barb hunting. Nevertheless, it is time to relocate them. As some of our precious swords are bound to mp duties, we should have more warriors (preferably spears for this). Our military is weak in comparison with the Incans! At the moment, we are not prepared for a war.
All, we could achieve would be the conquest of Vitcos (next to Tours), while Rheims might very well get lost.
Based on all we know, our borders to the south and to the west are not threatened. This would allow us to relocate our attacker units (swords and archers) to the Incan border. The next AC should go for Barbs in the south (as it will have higher chances of success, better manouverability and might return as elite to the front, thus giving it higher chances for MGL creation.

Cities:
10; building 2 swords, 1 worker, 1 settler, 2 markets, 3 temples, 1 granary
Orleans: 3h/0c/3u; +0fpt due to terrain; 8/9 shields, sword in 2; 2 swords as mp
=> should build temple after sword, has 3 forests available for chopping
Lyons: 3h/0c/1u; +1 fpt; 6/7 shields, sword in 2, 1 sword 1 archer as mp
=> should build temple later, has 3 forests available for chopping
Rheims: 2h/2c/0u; +1 fpt (next in 7); 4/8 shields, granary in 7; 1 spear, 1 archer as mp
=> should switch granary to courthouse to maximize shields. The wheat on floodplains will make it the next settler factory, anyway.
Tours: 3h/0c/0u; +2fpt (next in 3);3/4 shields, market in 28; 3 swords, 1 AC as mp
=> should switch to barracks for quick recovery of wounded troops
Marseilles: 2h/1c/0u; +2fpt (next in 5); 4/5 shields, market in 15; 1 warrior as mp
=> I see a temple for cultural expansion as well
Chartres: 2h/0c/0u; +2fpt (next in 2); 3/4 shields, temple in 14; 1 warrior as mp
=> nothing to be changed yet
Avignon: 0h/2c/0u; +2fpt (next in 9); 2/4 shields, temple in 30, 2 warriors as mp
=> nothing to be changed yet
Besancon: 1h/0c/0u; +2fpt (next in 9); 2/2 shields, temple in 29, 1 warrior as mp
=> nothing to be changed yet
Rouen: 0h/1c/0u; +2fpt (next in 4); 1/2 shields, worker in 4, 2 spears as mp
=> worker should be switched to warrior.
Paris: 3h/0c/2u; +4fpt (next in 3); 6/6 shields, settler in 1, 2 warriors as mp
=> nothing to be changed.

Income:
180 -3gpt (1.8.1), Lit in 9

Ressources:
We have 1 iron and will get 1 horse, soon. Since we don't have construction yet, we cannot build a fortification on our iron supply, which I would prefer.

[finger hovering over return button]

.... and he did it...

<pressing return>
IBT
Paris: settler > settler in 8 (mm'd)
Warrior6 spots Incan regular sword heading for Barbs

Turn 1 (310bc)
Worker 3/4 => Lyons for closing road connection towards Avignon
Avignon: switched to warrior (mp), Warrior11 => Chartres
Chartres: mm'd for temple in 10
AC01 explores eastlands for 2 forests, 1 whale. Good location for eastern harbor
Sword 10 (TSFKAW10 :confused: == the sword formerly known as Warrior10 :lol: ) renamed to Sword 10 and => N (to Rheims area)
Warrior13 => N on mountain for having a look into Incan territory
AC02 => Tours, fortifies
AC03 => Orleans
Worker combo escorted by Warrior5 => N to keep roads towards "Ville de Vin" (you recognize my perfect French, don't you :mischief: ) within our territory
Settler combo => NW to have sea, bg and wine access when founding "Ville de Vin"
Settler combo from Paris => Besancon
Worker 1/2 from irrigated plains at Marseilles => Besancon for chopping
Archer1 => N on hills
Archer7 => Rouen
Spear5 => Paris for later escort
Checking military advisor, he reports Goths to be at Lyons area.
Sadly, I decide to relocate archers at southern volcanoe towards Lyons. I will go for the Barbs with the next AC and AC03.
Worker5 => SW on forest for chopping for temple at Chartres
Archer6=> Chartres
Rouen: switched from worker to warrior (3)
Marseilles: switched from market > temple (4)
Tours: switched from market > barracks (7)
Rheims: switched from whatever it has been (market?) to courthouse and thinking about to switching it to settler, loosing 6 shields (1.5 turns). This settler would found a city next to the Incan city formerly known as Ollantaytambo (the future "Gogfville" :p ). This would be a most aggressive manouvre, and I am unsure if this might cause the Incans to go to war. Furthermore, I would like to know about the teams opinion about manouvres like this. For the moment, it hasn't been done and since at the next turn we would loose 10 shields by doing so, I most probably won't do it during my turns anymore.

Unit count:
2 settlers (1), 9 workers (0), 11 warriors (2), 7 archers (0), 5 spears, 6 swords (2), 3 AC (1)

Income:
177 -4gpt; 1.8.1; Lit in 8

markets were prebuilds. you can change them as desired. as far as Rheims goes, imho, i think a little investment (courthouse or granery) will go a long way. better than a settler right now.

as far as being agressive with the maya, i think patience is key. we don't want to do something that lets them dictate when the war starts. i'd rather launch than absorb the 1st blow. good luck :)

(find the save below)

pressing return
IBT:
Orleans: sword > settler(4)
Lyons: sword > sword

Turn2 (290bc)
Will start revolution after settler at Orleans and temple at Marseilles.

Archer 06 fortifies at Chartres
Archer combo => Lyons
Archer 07 fortifies at Rouen
Archer 1 => Marseilles
Worker 09 roads wheat next to Rheims, Sword 10 => Rheims
Warrior13 => Tours
Sword08 @Orleans: => Tours
AC03 => wines at Paris
Worker 1/2 => forest at Besancon

Founded our first harber: Grenoble! ("Ville de Vin")
Grenoble: warrior
Spear05 => Paris
AC01 => Avignon, exploring last unknown tile in the east
Warrior6 => S
Settler combo => Grenoble
Sword 08 from Lyons joins workers 3/4 for protection

Unit count:
1 settlers (2), 9 workers (0), 11 warriors (3), 7 archers (0), 5 spears (0), 8 swords (1), 3 AC (1)

Income:
173 -1gpt; 1.8.1; Lit in 7

pressing return
IBT:
Incans kill Barb
Barbhorse shows up at Lyons
SoZ mystically gives us an AC
Incans build Chuiquapo at gems region :mad:

Turn3 (270bc)
Archer combo => Lyons
Archer1 => Marseilles (pop/temple in 2), fortifies
Sword 10 => Rheims, fortifies
Sword 08 fortifies at Tours
Warrior 13 => Tours, fortifies
AC 04 => Paris
Worker 1/2: chopping at Besancon
Settler combo => N for next harbor north of Grenoble
Spear 5 => Paris
AC03 => workers at Lyons for attack on Barbs
Worker 3/4 close road connection Lyons > Avignon. We can build chariots now!
Worker 08 => Avignon forest for chopping
AC01 => Avignon and south for Barb hunting
Warrior6 => S
Sword 8 fortifies for worker protection

Unit count:
1 settlers (2), 9 workers (0), 11 warriors (3), 7 archers (0), 5 spears (0), 8 swords (1), 4 AC (1)

Income:
172 -1gpt; 1.8.1; Lit in 5

Pressing return
IBT
Barbhorse at Lyons tries to escape encirclement by our ACs
Barb