Welcome to RBC-14C, the story of the Cultural French. This thread is for the French team of the Realms Beyond Civilization Conquests SG Series (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=68410) , playing the Age of Discovery Conquest. Our goal is to win a Cultural Victory (Civ-wide or One-City) as the French on Emperor difficulty level. The special rules in place should make it a real challenge

Roster
Justus II
Romeothemonk
Cuivienen
Grahamiam

Special Rules
This conquest is about exploration, colonization, and for us, culture, not warfare. The scenario can become too easily unbalanced if the player takes over the other European powers, so we will play passive in Europe. This means no attacking other cities on the continent (including England/Ireland, but not the Atlantic islands). Wars between the powers may happen, and pillaging resources is OK, but no attacking cities except to recapture cities we lose. Accepting culture flips is fine (and I would hope we get a few!), and war may be waged to recapture a city that flips away from us. Off the continent, it’s fair game. Think Cold War, with our ‘client’ colonies fighting the brush wars while we maintain deterrence in the homeland.

Also, the Native techs will be off limits, they should be non-tradeable, and we won’t try any min-research to get them. Unfortunately, all the best cultural wonders are in the Native tree, and some high-culture improvements, but a Sacrificial Altar in Paris just doesn’t quite fit the theme. (Although, there was that whole Joan of Arc thing… ;) )
Edit: We are going to allow for the possiblity of stealing/trading our way to get Ball Courts, which reflects the influence of Native traditions back on the continent. However, no wonders or "religious" improvements.
Our goal will be any cultural victory before we hit the time limit (or before anyone else hits the VP limit). For this scenario, that’s 20,000 total, or 4,000 in one city (Paris, of course).

Analysis
We start with some advantages. Our initial six cities already have temples, 5 have libraries, and a couple universities, so we start with 250cp and gaining 32cpt. We have Iron, and two luxuries, connected. Temples for this scenario are only 40 shields, so we get a break there. Also, once we start colonizing the New World, we can bring home treasure for 200g to help pay for rushing. Our UU, the Musketeer, is actually decent, getting 3-5-1 for 60 shields vs. the 3-4-1 Musketman. We do start with one Settler.

Disadvantages? Well, there’s a few. First, if you see the map below, France is TINY. Most of our initial cities already have first-ring overlap with one another, and there’s not much room to squeeze any more in. That means any new cities will have to be in the New World, and even with the reduced corruption for this scenario, they will probably struggle to build up culture. Second, although our two traits (Commercial and Industrious) are usually considered two of the stronger ones, neither gets us a discount on cultural buildings. Third, Libraries and Universities have reduced culture for this scenario, 2cpt and 3 cpt, respectively. (For a full list of cultural buildings, see my next post). Also, as I mentioned, the big cpt Wonders are in the Native tech tree, so we can’t have them. (Sacrificial Altar is 10cpt!).

The final disadvantage is turn limit (150). We would need 4 times our current cpt (133) to hit 20,000 in 150 turns. Since there isn’t room for more than one or two more cities in France (if that), and with our passive rules, we will have to colonize a lot of cultural outposts in the new world to have a shot at this. One-city isn’t much brighter. Paris is currently at 11cpt, and would need to AVERAGE 27cpt to hit the 4,000 mark in 150 turns. I don’t think we can build enough wonders fast enough to do it, but I could be wrong. To make it more interesting, we also have to race the 35,000 VP victory condition, which could reduce our 150 turns to around 100 if we can’t prevent the AI from returning their treasures. (It also means we can’t bring much of it back ourselves …).

Well, I don’t mean to sound bleak. I think we have a shot, and I certainly want to see how close we can come without conquering our way to culture, but it’s going to take a LOT of New-World cities with rushed culture to make a good run at it. Here’s our map, with my 2-3 proposed city sites. Note that we could squeeze one in 3 NW of Paris, but it would share a first-ring tile with London, probably not a good idea:

I’d like to get some discussion going, we could use some really good suggestions to tackling this problem. My first thought was that we need to follow French history a little and try to get some North African colonies. They may not have any treasures, but they are much closer to home, and should be productive enough to build some of their own culture. However, except for a Portugese city, the north and northwest coast is all desert or mountains, and desert is impassible in this scenario, so we would have to sail south to the Congo. Still an option, but not much better than the new world at that point.

Obviously we also need to get our existing cities to complete whatever cultural buildings they lack. None of our cities have a Coliseum yet, and only Paris has a Cathedral. I’d love to go for Sistine’s, but all the AI are also starting it, and with Portugal in a GA, I think we’d get beaten. Still, it might be worthwhile to build toward it and plan/hope to swap to another wonder before then, Copernicus and Leo’s are also available.

I think we need to do whatever we can to keep the tech pace moving, as there are some major cultural buildings available in the next age, especially with Free Artistry, and the sooner they are available, the better.

We probably also ought to discuss governments. We are in Catholic Monarchy, basically similar to standard Monarchy. Our other option, once Protestantism is researched, is a Protestant Monarchy, which has the worker bonus and reduced corruption, but adds War Weariness. Of course, we’d also suffer through an anarchy, and remember culture stops accumulating during anarchy, so I’m not sure if the tradeoff is worth it. Protestants get another wonder, 95 Theses, but by staying Catholic we will get access to the Jesuit College improvement in the next era.

Cultural Buildings (Shields-cpt)
Temple 40-2
Library 80-2
Colosseum 120-2
Cathedral 160-3
University 200-3
Artist’s Guild 140-3 (Free Artistry)
Jesuit College 200-2 (Counter-Reformation, Catholic only)
Native Only
Sacrificial Altar 40-10!
Ball Court 150-8


Wonders
Sistine Chapel 300-3
Copernicus 400-2
Leo’s 400-1
Magellan’s 400-2 (Magnetism)
95 Theses 400-4 (Protestantism, Protestant only)
Smith’s 400-2
Newton’s 400-3
Shakespeare’s 400-4
Native Only
Temple of the Moon 300-8
Temple of the Sun 400-10
Temple of Kukulcan 400-8

Couple of Notes here. I have 1.22 and no idea of how to go back to 1.15 and no real desire to either. Can the team all upgrade to 1.22? I have noticed that some of the other SG's that people are in are 1.22.

Notes on the game itself. We can really hose the other powers early. Portugal starts in the golden age and most of Europe is under developed. If we declare war on Portugal first turn and then sign the spainards in right away neither one of them will get in the wonder hunt.
The Low country is very shield poor. If we can get something started there ASAP and pillage their 2-3 hills they will effectively be removed from the wonder hunt. We could aslo buy England in for us against both enemies. This would make for an exciting first 20 but should allow us to get the first push.
I have played this scenario roughly 10 times and have found a fairly solid strategy. The first tech should be printing press so we can get colonists. I have never failed to get a monopoly on this tech and then leverage it for the other 2-3 techs the AI researches. Banking is then another almost surefire monopoly. We can run at a massive deficit on Science for a while and sell maps to the Euro's we are not at war with to build up the cash.
Needless to say an SGL just about bags the game for us.
I haven't tried this but can we steal into the native tree to take their uber-wonders?

My recommendation is in the first turns lets get our war on and build a bunch of workers to really max out Paris and then merge into Paris to really make it the grooviest place in the world. The war early might be against the premise, but we might need some culture bearers to do some work for us.

Note: Out UU is amphibious. MDI's are amphib as well. We could really hose the Mayans badly if they start getting culture.
Looking to see how this one starts.

checking in. it's late now but i'll look at what I can do for a dual installation tomorrow night. i'll also read up on Justus's and romeo's posts first thing in the morning.

i have not looked at the save, only the pictures and the posts. however, based on romeo's experience, i agree that getting europe into an early furball seems to be our best bet to snag some early wonders and to prolong the game (it seems we'll need as many turns as possible). if we're fairly certain of getting an SGL via romeo's tech path, then maybe we should avoid early wonder builds and focus on workers, settlers for Justus' locations, and minor culture buildings (esp libraries to keep the tech moving). after we're fairly set, then we can start some wonder prebuilds. looking at the terrain, there's a lot of stuff for those workers to do :)

gov't: actually, this is nagging me. if we want 20k, then maybe staying in a catholic monarchy since we'll be able to build many Jesuit Colleges (200shields for 2cpt stinks but that's the scenario rules :) ). if we want 4k, then maybe revolting to a protestant monarchy as early as possible is best. the lowered corruption will help those offshore cities cope and we'll have access to the additional wonder (well, 4cpt also stinks). however, the lowered corruption will also help increase our gpt and help those offshore cities build stuff faster, thus helping us get to 20k as well... well, if we do revolt, we should do it early to increase our chances for a short period of anarchy.

romeo, have you revolted to protestant monarchy during your 10+ tries? if so, how much better is the gov't? is it comparable to a republic in an epic game?

for the new world vs the congo for heavy settlement, i'll defer, though I would prefer capturing the Portugese city in North Africa JustusII refered to as I think we ought to consider this area the same as the New World in terms of warfare. plus, maybe we can get a couple of fairly low corruption cities around it.

by my calcs, we need 19750cp to win. if each city has a temple, lib, col, cath, and univ., it will produce 12cpt for 600 shields. we would need 17 of these cities :eek: to make it in 100 turns, assuming no wonders. that means we need low corrupiton to build/rush all this stuff quickly... Protestant Monarchy is sounding better and better...

Good comments! I'm still debating the government question too, it's at least two techs into the tree (and optional), so there would certainly be some cost involved there as well. I wish I had a better idea of how much it can affect corruption in the New World cities, will it even make a difference?

As for the early warfare, my biggest concern with that plan is that the AI will start racking up VPs too fast. But early warfare with cheap units and stunted growth might be better than late warfare with expensive units and lots of 'em! Second concern is that it slows down the overall tech pace, and I think we want to get to Free Artistry in particular as fast as we can.

As for stealing the native techs, I don't know whether it's possible in the scenario, I would assume that it is, as it was in the Middle Ages scenario, but Ithink that would still go against our "theme" for this game. We have to try and win with European culture. ;)

This is not a sign-up, as I do not have C3C, but here are my thoughts and questions. Please keep in mind that I have not seen the map.

- Are the Med islands in play? Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, Malta and Balearics? They are close to home, and could be useful. What about Egypt, Crete, the levant, Cyprus, etc.? The Congo may be better for building cities in a non-war environment - which you know the Aztecs, Mayans, etc will be pursuing for sacrificial offerings if nothing else. You may not want to be spending all of that time building military instead of culture, if you can afford to give up the time. You would need to take available lux and resources for each continent into account, and would likely have less competition.

The new world does offer up the option of conquest, of course, but again will take time away from building culture. It's also not likely give you the cities long enough to matter unless the conquest was very early. If you could time a European war to match the period in which you want to conquer the bigger native cities, then it would reduce the competition.

No, the Mediterranean is not in play -- the Spanish start with Cagliari (Sardinia), but there are no other islands in near Europe.

One possibility is trying to conquer as much of Europe as possible and using the large space to build culture. Alternatively, we could settle heavily in the New World (lowered corruption allows cultural development), but there are verty few strong sites in the New World. Since we won't be winning by treasures, we don't need to settle the New World at all.

One plus for Africa is that it is the only source of Ivory, which, if we don't settle quickly, will be monopolized by Portugal.

One possibility is trying to conquer as much of Europe as possible and using the large space to build culture.
the varient here, besides a culture win, is to not conquere Europe. however, there's nothing preventing us from getting all of them fighting each other early as romeothemonk suggested :)

In all my try's playing this game I have never got an SGL. I have also never reverted to Protestantism, as I tend to War monger. Last night I played a faux turn. I was able to get all the alliances and almost all the gold in the game quickly.
NOTE: Forget Africa unless you are portugal. Take our settler to the New world and either get Cuba or Virginia. These are the two places that generate Mad VP's. If England is our friend they can and will stop all other Naval movement as soon as they get their big ships.
I think we have 2 luxuries. If we can get Paris bigger and if England helps us out by taking a Dutch city or 2 we can steal their luxes.
For more info on the scenario check out LK's SG on France. There are many good nuggets to glean from that game.
Key experience: Do not build treasure generating buildings!! The treasure counts as a unit against our support.

interesting. i should do my homework tonight on this scenario after i get the dual version installation up and running.

re: mad vp's: if we get virginia and cuba, is there a chance we could accidently trigger a vp win instead of a cultural win? if so, should we then focus on one rather than the other?

edit: i'll be out of town Saturday, returning Sunday

First, welcome to Cuivienen, glad to have you on the team! That's four, I will update the first post with the roster shortly. Second, re: Version, I am still at 1.15, but I have 2 computers, so I could patch one to 1.22 without too much difficulty, but unless I'm sure everyone can upgrade, I don't want to jump into it. Grahamiam, sounds like you are doing a second install, how about Cuivienen? Are you at 1.15 still? From your sig, looks like you are in several other SGs at the moment, what version are you running?

Regarding the VPs, taking the resource areas doesn't generate the VPs unless you build the treasure buildings, IIRC, so it's probably a good idea to sieze the key areas for denial, but not build the buildings ourselves. That way we would also have the option to build them later, if we determine the cultural is out of reach after all. Of the two, my preference would be Virginia, as obviously it opens more area for packing in cities. Looking at the stats again, I think it will be cheaper to build a ton of cities, with cheap Colonists, and get all the cheap temples fast, then work on rushing the libraries. The other buildings are high shield for the cpt, and will probably only get built in our core. After all, to generate 2cpt, we could invest 120 into a colosseum, or 20 (and 1 pop) into a colonist, and then 40 for another temple. I have visions of "temple farm villages" stretching across from Virginia to California, as far as the eye can see! We will be fulfilling the Manifest Destiny and the French Missionary work at the same time!

I was poking around the Dutch game and came across an interesting post. A gentleman there said that he got to ballcourts and then used them to get 4 happy people for 1 upkeep. If I have time I will look into this idea tommorrow and give the team an update but 4 extra happy people and 8cpt will really be nice. Plus it will allow for us to be warring protestants. Ill keep you posted.

ok, i was able to do the dual install thing tonight. little bit of a pain but not bad at all. i tried to do a quick fix by copying the .exe and renaming but that didn't work at all. instead, after uninstalling and then reinstalling (and i now no longer need a ptw disk :) ), i did the following:
1. i then installed patch 1.15b, which is where Justus should be right now.
2. next, i copied the entire "Infogrames Interactive" folder to another drive partition (drive J for me but i probably could have just copied to a new directory). This gives me 2 complete copies of the game, 1 in my D drive and another in my J drive.
3. created a shortcut on my desktop to the Civ3Conquests.exe file located in the J drive and labeled "1.15b"
4. installed patch 1.22f to my original "Infogrames Interactive" folder in drive D.

Now I can click either shortcut on my desktop and I will get the desired version. Not too hard to do, just a lot of cutting and pasting :)

Minor problem. My original disk/s are 600 miles away. Does/would they be needed for this type of setup?
Thanks

As for stealing the native techs, I don't know whether it's possible in the scenario, I would assume that it is, as it was in the Middle Ages scenario, but Ithink that would still go against our "theme" for this game. We have to try and win with European culture. ;)

I was poking around the Dutch game and came across an interesting post. A gentleman there said that he got to ballcourts and then used them to get 4 happy people for 1 upkeep. If I have time I will look into this idea tommorrow and give the team an update but 4 extra happy people and 8cpt will really be nice. Plus it will allow for us to be warring protestants. Ill keep you posted.

I am that gentleman. I was playing this scenario as Spain, and I had a huge excess of cash once I changed Gvt. to Protestant Monarchy (I was fairly far ahead in research, so I felt I could safely ease up on the ol' science budget), and was able to steal Enslavement from the Mayans for 1100 gold. Well worth it, since Ball Games has a fairly normal tech cost, and I researched that in 4 turns. Shortly thereafter, Madrid, Barcelona, Panama City, and several other cities where I had large numbers of malcontents got a ballcourt built/rushed. If I'd have thought of the whole stealing techs earlier in the game, I'd have have been able to steal ritual sacrifice in time for it to really be worthwhile (the NA civs had already built most of their wonders by the time I figured this little trick out :().

As a matter of fact, I just discovered I have a saved version of this particular game lying around. I'm posting a screenshot of one of my cities with the Ballcourt :)

Oh, and can I sign up, or am I too late for this one, too? :confused:

Minor problem. My original disk/s are 600 miles away. Does/would they be needed for this type of setup?
Thanks
I don't know. I'm assuming you mean your vanilla civ disk is 600 miles away? I found that uninstalling patch 1.22f seems to do some weird things since i also play CFC gotm and have PTW mods installed so i just uninstalled the whole thing. if you try, 1st copy the entire directory to a safe place so you don't mess up the entire installation.

Yes my vanilla disks are 600 miles away. Conquests haven't left one of my drives in 8 months.
Note: Whoever starts should go for SISTENE. I am sure we can get it. It always goes about turn 30 of my games, but we will have a giant furball slowing it down.

Hmmm... I could install Civ onto my second computer and upgrade all the way to 1.22, but that computer has a horrible mouse and annoys the hell out of me. I'll upgrade if we really need to, but I'd rather not.

I am that gentleman. I was playing this scenario as Spain, and I had a huge
Oh, and can I sign up, or am I too late for this one, too? :confused:

Hikaro, thanks for all the input. I'll let Justus decide since he's the lead in this game but, imho, 5 players for 150turns may be too many. thats only 3turns per player if we go 10T each.

check this thread for the other RBCiv-14 SG's getting underway. it appears there are still slots available in the iroquois game and another. (14g and 14h)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=68410&page=18&pp=20

Yes my vanilla disks are 600 miles away. Conquests haven't left one of my drives in 8 months.

well, you could copy your existing "Infogrames Interactive" folder into a safe place, then uninstall C3C from your original directory, then reinstall and use the 1.15b patch. you will now have 2 complete installations. you'll need to make a shortcut to your desktop for your 1.22f installation but it should work. I think vanilla is selling for around $10 if you absolutely need to do a complete re-installation.

Wow, several tough calls. I've given these some thought, and here's what we'll go with.

Version: Sounds like everyone is capable of having dual installations, but a couple would prefer not to upgrade, while a couple would. In case of tie, I'm going to defer back to the original 'standard' and stay with 1.15. I don't think any of the 1.22 changes will affect this scenario anyway, but it does prevent loading of older games, and that's a big drawback. (I'm sorry, Romeothemonk, if that causes more problems for you, but it's stll easier for one person to make dual installs than for the other three to have to do it). :)

Culture/Flavor: While having the Catholic (or Protestant, for that matter) French build Temple of the Sun or Sacrificial Altars seems too out of character, I can see the ball courts. After all, the Missionaries did bring back many elements of Native culture, along with all the gold and tobacco. So, we can try and steal/trade our way to the Ball Court improvement, and build them, but we still avoid the other 'religious' native improvements. (I'll edit this into the first post).

Hikaro, I'd love to have you aboard, but like Grahamiam said, with such a short scenario 4 is really a pretty full roster. Do check into the other thread, as there are other games with slots and an 'Open' game you can jump into. Hope to see you in another SG though!

OK, hopefully that clears up the questions, I hope to get this game rolling tonight, with a round of Machiavellian diplomacy and some serious infrastructure building. Right now, my plan is to focus on workers to improve Paris, so we can get Sistine's, and devleop our other cities so they can build more culture. I probably won't build the 'dotmap' settlers until we get Printing Press for the Colonists (s/b less than 20 turns). I think it will make up for it with more workers to develop our cities right away. ;)

Culture/Flavor: While having the Catholic (or Protestant, for that matter) French build Temple of the Sun or Sacrificial Altars seems too out of character, I can see the ball courts. After all, the Missionaries did bring back many elements of Native culture, along with all the gold and tobacco. So, we can try and steal/trade our way to the Ball Court improvement, and build them, but we still avoid the other 'religious' native improvements. (I'll edit this into the first post).

Makes sense, since many European Ballgames (soccer, lacross, etc) are direct descendendts of Native American games


Hikaro, I'd love to have you aboard, but like Grahamiam said, with such a short scenario 4 is really a pretty full roster. Do check into the other thread, as there are other games with slots and an 'Open' game you can jump into. Hope to see you in another SG though!

Oh, well, it's pretty much a moot point for me, since, no matter how many times I try, my stupid slow-@$$ internet connection sh*ts the bed every time I try to download either the 1.15 or 1.22 patches (my connection has a bad habit of timeing out with any file over 10Mb) :cry: . :mad: :ar15: :shotgun: :argh:

Ouch...you need to get an program like getright or something. Just make sure you remove it later unless you like spyware programs.

Actually, Hikaro, soccer began in The early 11th century, when some English soldiers kicked around the skulls of Danes from the previous war. Children emulated the soldiers using inflated cow bladders and the game of soccer was born :D...

I think lacrosse is an Iroquois sport though.

Ouch...you need to get an program like getright or something. Just make sure you remove it later unless you like spyware programs.

No can do, even thinking about using spyware could get my internet access permanently cut off. I guess I'll just try repeatedly (either that or install the 80% downloaded 1.20 patch, then install the 1.22 update that's only like 8 MB, and which I successfully downloaded already, and pray that it works).

@Yom: Yes, you are correct, I was thinking of rugby/American football (which I remember reading in the Encyclopaedia Britannica that those games were developed from a native american sport), and Lacross is most definitely Iroquois (which explains its popularity in the NE US and S Canada).

Well, due to some RL interference, I didn't get this one started yet, which is probably for the best. I did take a good look at the start, and I'm really having second thoughts about kick-starting the early WWI on the continent. Paris is too exposed to the dutch. Not only would we spend a lot of effort defending ourselves, but we wouldn't be able to develop the tiles around Paris, which will be critical to our Wonder chase. (It's also our only continental barracks). I think even without the war, we should be able to focus development on Paris enough to make up for it. We may not beat Portugal to Sistine's but I'd be happy with Copernicus also. Even with the wars, it may not help much, as once the AI start a wonder, they rarely switch off. I'd like to discuss this some more, and hopefully start tomorrow night.

Another question (which I will post in the Series thread) is worker purchases. Standard RBCiv rules are not to take an AI below 2 workers early. From Charis' initial post, looks like everyone but Portugal starts with 3, so I think one worker per civ should be OK from the start, and then none for the first 10-20 turns? Not that there are any available at start, but if we do start the wars, they may be.

Also, I'd like to get confirmation from Romeothemonk that he was able to get a 1.15 version up and running. Thanks for your patience, and hope to hear some more good ideas!

well, i was messing around with this friday night and was easily beaten to sistine's but did manage to squeak in Copernacus. however, i did not try to get the game into an early furball. rather, i just wanted to take a look at the map. imho, romeo's idea of getting an early war going seems good. Justus, your comment regarding the dutch is right on, but couldn't we ally with them vs Port? or do we only have enough cash for the spaniards and the english?

things to note that i did not realize about this scenario (please correct me if i'm wrong so i can get a better understanding of this scenario :) ):
-caravels can move on oceans but use 2 movement points
-there is a "sea tile" corridor to the NW and SW from france to the new world to speed delivery. anyone know if it's faster to use these vs going straight across?
-settlers cannot settle on forrests.
-it is easy to gain contact with all american civ's via the explorer and they will all buy alphabet for cash (they seem to be able to gather between 100 and 200g)
-min research rate is 80T.
-our scientific research rate stinks.
-everyone seems to start with research on PP or Banking or magnetism. only gunpowder seemed to be ignored.
-Paris can spit out settlers fairly quickly with some minor tile improvements

things to note that i did not realize about this scenario (please correct me if i'm wrong so i can get a better understanding of this scenario :) ):
-caravels can move on oceans but use 2 movement points
-there is a "sea tile" corridor to the NW and SW from france to the new world to speed delivery. anyone know if it's faster to use these vs going straight across?
-settlers cannot settle on forrests.


1. The Sea Corridors (there is one near the Canary Islands and another beyond England) are MUCH faster.
2. No cities in Jungle or Forests. Deserts and Tundra are impassable.

Well, I haven't gotten any confirmation back from Romeothemonk on version yet, I PM'd him, but I'm going to go ahead and start this, using 1.15. I'm not going to get the wars going on my first 10 turns, we have barely one defender/city, and I want to send at least 1-2 over with our initial settler. That means even having some basic zone defense will require building more units, and Paris is our only Barracks. I think we will get much greater payoff from getting a bunch of workers out improving our lands, then maybe we could have some defenses in place to stir up trouble a little further down the road if we need to. The AI will continue building wonders, even if at war, so I don't see how it would slow them down too much, our best bet is to improve Paris, and grow it, so we can outproduce them to at least Copernicus.

A couple of notes. I haven't tried the dual install yet. I am busy at 2 jobs this week and won't have a chance to dink around till the weekend. It is key to note that a portugese war is nearly a must. After the first turn an alliance goes from them paying us to us paying them. Portugal CANNOT hurt us if spain and England join the fun. Plus their is usually a lot of cross pillaging by the spanish and Ports which knocks out the two biggest contenders for the wonders. I can see passing on a Dutch war as the Dutch cities are shield defficient. Plus the early alliance with England is needed to keep them happy throughout the game. England can and will prevent any other nations ships from crossing the seas, but I have never known them to win with VP's. Just remember that we are short on units but so are they and on emporer they don't build them that much faster than us.

Good points about Portugal, you've convinced me. They don't scare me as much as that open border with the Dutch. I'll sign Spain and England in against them, which should also slow their colonization efforts. Let us know how the dual install works out, if we need to we can swap a slot on the roster to have Cuivienen move up and take the second set of turns. Good luck with work!

I'd go ahead with the swap. It will prevent later problems. (I like playing down in the roster anyway.)

After a good bit of discussion, I am convinced we do want to start our neighbors out with a dogpile on Portugal, both to divert them from colonization efforts and hopefully slow their wonder building. So, my first step is to start with the diplomacy. Our world map is pretty current, 3gp gets Portugal’s, with a few extra tiles of North Africa revealed. I then declare war on Portugal, and can indeed get both Spain and England to pay us their 200g to ally vs. Portugal. Spain would have thrown in the Canary Islands, but that seemed too exploitative, so I just settled for the cash. To make it a complete sweep, I also invite the Netherlands to join our alliance, getting 300 of their 500g. This should keep them all worked up and hopefully slow their cultural development, as well as colonization, and also secure our northern borders.

I swap every city but Paris to a worker, and MM to get them all down to 2 turns (4 in Edinburgh). Yes, it’ll be a big pop hit initially, but we need a lot of development work, and in most cases the third citizen is working unimproved tiles currently anyway.

The worker near Paris roads the grass where he stands, and the worker in Lyons moves up to mine the Wine tile. Meanwhile, I load up our Caravels for the New World. First, I move our explorer up to Brest, where he can board a Caravel that will strike out first and explore for our colony spot. From Bordeaux, I load a Settler, Pike, and our 3rd worker to establish our foothold, and a second caravel departs with our Longbow, which can look for and maybe reserve a spot on Cuba. Our fourth Caravel is in the Med, and so I start to sail it around Spain, hoping to load another explorer aboard by the time it gets to the Atlantic. I tweak things a bit, and decide Marseilles will build an explorer before the worker, so I just set it to put a few shields on it and plan on rushing it next turn. It should be able to run across Spain in time to catch the caravel. Just to be sure, I sign an ROP with Spain. Their mission will be to hopefully make some contacts with the natives in Central or South America, and get a decent map for trading.

OK, finally time to select our research. Printing Press will enable the Colonists, and I don’t want to be dependent on the AI’s for that, so that’s my first choice. 100% Science will get it in 15, at a –48 deficit. We have 597 in the bank, but with the forthcoming population drops, I know we won’t be able to maintain that rate, but I start there and see what we can do.

IBT: The other civs start sending out Caravels. A nervous moment as a Portuguese Caravel sails right past our Settler Caravel. They have move 8! Apparently the Portuguese and Spanish must start with the Navigation School small wonder already completed, plus Seafaring trait, so base move of 7, and Portuguese have Diaz’ Voyage to add one more. That will complicate things. The good(?) news is it moved north, toward England? Spain moves a caravel into the Med.

1491: Shuffle a few tiles around to get some more food while still completing the workers. Rush the worker in Edinburgh, and the Explorer in Marseilles. Carvels head west, following a Sea lane, rather than moving in the 2-move ocean tiles.
IBT: Uh oh, the Portuguese land a Longbow outside Brest, which has a single Pike. Watch their N.African city defend against an Amphib Assault.
Lyon-Worker>rax, Mars.-Explorer>Worker, Bordeaux-Worker>Cathedral, Brest-Worker>Explorer, Edinburgh-Worker>Library. Some good news, Portugal actually did swap the Sistine build, now in the Azores!

1492: Longbow vs. Pike, even with walls, is too iffy, and I sure don’t want to lose a city. I recall our Longbow caravel, who can make it back adjacent to Brest, so at least I get our Longbow into the city, even if I can’t attack out. I also move our Trebuchet and Pike from Paris over to hit him next turn. Workers start to road some of the irrigated plains near Bordeaux and Lyons. The explorer moves across Spain, and the southern Caravel waits near Gibraltar. I’ll have to rush another explorer in Brest next turn, to move out with the Caravel that was supposed to head for Cuba. Caravels move again, we have a slight lead on the English, but they move 5, so they may overtake us.
IBT: The longbow dies after redlining our Pike. Some more culture expands, as our pre-existing buildings are pushing out.

1493: Our lead Caravel spots the New World. I push west until I can land the Explorer, who makes contact with an Iroquois Mounted Warrior. They are backwards, so Alphabet gets me their 125g and WM.
Here they are:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RBC14C_Iroq.jpg

Meanwhile, in the south, it looks like Portugal destroyed the Spanish city of Canary Islands. There’s a wine located under the ruins. This might be a gamble, but I’m gonna try and grab it. Marseilles hadn’t completed their worker yet, so I swap to a settler and rush it, while moving the caravel from Brest south to Bordeax, where I can pick it up in a couple turns. Hopefully the AI’s starting settlers are all already enroute somewhere, and we can get there before they build another. If not, it will be positioned to head for Cuba. I send our Longbow and a Pike with the caravel. Also looks like Spain has pillaged Portugal’s Iron and Horses.
IBT: The English land a settler/MDI adjacent to our explorer in Canada, so hopefully we will have no competition for Virginia.

1494: Well, I spoke too soon, as my explorer moves south along the coast and spots an Iroquois Setter/MW pair. The caravel with the settler is still coming. The caravel in the south sees a wounded Portuguese MDI still at Canary Island, I’ll have to take him out before settling, but it is a two-tile island, so I don’t have to have Amphib attack. Workers continue improving, with the priority on Paris.
IBT: Nothing much, the Iroquois settle Niagra Falls as expected.

1495: Not a good turn for our explorer. Moving south, I spot a barb camp with two conscript Cherokee Archers, then a Spanish Settler/Pike pair already landed, and in moving away from the barb camp find myself adjacent to two more. This is bad. The settler caravel continues SW, we’ll now have to chose between somewhere S of Virginia, or go on to Cuba. We’ll definitely need some mainland spots, though, if we’re going to build a bunch of culture towns. Our second settler is loaded and sailing around Spain toward the Canaries. The explorer caravel down there has found the sea lane toward South America, maybe we can get a contact that way.
Unbelievably, neither the English nor Spanish made contact with the Iroquois, so we still have an excellent brokering opportunity. The Dutch have the most cash, so I start there, getting 80g+WM for Contact+WM. Spain has a worker available, so I trade Contact, WM, +50g for their Worker +WM. Then England pays WM, 33g+1gpt for WM and Iroquois. The Iroquois themselves only have 25g, and give me their WM and 20g for my new WM. I didn’t sell them contact with Portugal yet, I’ll see if they have anything to offer next turn.
IBT: Spain’s pike attacks one barb camp, but our explorer is ambushed.
(To Be Continued)...

1496: Caravels continue moving, the one in the south sees some type of island. Edinburgh needs lots of development, I swap to another worker, and MM some tiles between cities. Our cities are so densely packed, everyone is sharing tiles with everyone else, it’s a big hassle, but there are some good MM combinations to be had if you’re patient. Speaking of patience, I am making 10-12 gpt selling world maps, but I usually have to first buy someone else’s for a few, then sell it around, and then come back and resell the new map to get my gold back.

1497: We land our pike from the first settler caravel near Virginia, and see that Spain has moved their settler/pike inland, to a forest tile. I know they can’t settle there, so I land our settler and worker, we may be able to grab this site after all. It’s on a river, with a BG adjacent and a fish with expansion, although that’s also in the radius of Niagra. Our other caravel sees what could be Cuba. Further south, I come across an island halfway along the sea lane, a one-tile forest island with Spices, near another one-tile island. I guess you’d have to chop the forest, then settle the spice island. Spice is not a luxury, though, just a treasure resource. I do sell Contact with Portugal to the Iroquois, as they have taken out a barb camp and have 27g to offer, plus WM.
IBT: Nothing.

1498: Busy turn. First, our caravel spots green borders past Cuba, and we make contact with the Maya! No one else has contact, but they also don’t have much to offer. I get the Mayan’s 88g and WM for Alphabet, and trading WMs clears everyone else out of cash, so I keep the contact to myself for now. The caravel in the far south lands the explorer in Venezuela? Our caravel reaches Canary Island, and drops off the pike and longbow, the Portuguese MDI is still fortified there, so I’ll have to attack him next turn. I found Quebec in Virginia. Ironically, the English founded Jamestown in a location on the Great Lakes, where Quebec should be. ;) Spain is still having their settler accompany the pike as he barb-hunts. ??? BTW, founding the city disperses a barb camp, netting another 25g. We have been maintaining 100% science, and now we have enough in the bank that we should be able to complete Printing Press on schedule! There’s still a conscript archer adjacent to our colony. I’m not too worried about the archer vs. a fortified Pike, but I only brought one defender, so I can’t also escort our worker. I guess our best bet is to merge him into the town, while the caravel goes back for more troops. Doing so, I see that corruption is only 50%, even this far away, and also notice a courthouse is only 30 shields! I start on a temple, as we are bordering Niagra, but we will probably want to rush it and then build a courthouse soon.
IBT: Portugal may have done us a favor, as the MDI at Canary attacks our pike. The pike dies, but takes 2hp off the MDI, so our longbow should have a better chance. However, I also spot another Portuguese caravel near Brest.

1499: Our explorer in South America moves inland, dodging multiple barb camps. I see the Panama Isthmus, and find a hill that’s two tiles from the nearest camp, but it isn’t easy. Make sure you save the last movement point to back up if needed, there are camps everywhere. Caravels scout around the islands. At Canary, the longbow kills the MDI without losing an hp, so I land the settler, and send the caravel back for reinforcements. Brest has a pike and the treb, and another Pike from Paris can get there in one. We have NO extra units, in fact Lyons has no garrison as it is, since I was waiting to finish a rax. I go ahead and rush a regular MDI in Brest, so I can have an attacker, and move the garrison from Marseilles into a more central location, so it can react if needed. Do some more MM, as Paris and Bordeux will grow next turn. After map trading, I have more than enough to ensure we get Printing Press in 5, so I go ahead and rush a courthouse in Quebec for 112g, then it can swap to temple.
IBT: Portugal comes asking for Peace, I say no of course. They do not appear to have any additional cities, and lack iron. They then land a vet Longbow north of Bordeaux, on a hill.

1500: The longbow is in an awkward position, the only way our MDI can attack is across a river, onto a hill, and I don’t want to do that. I move the treb out, and take off 1hp, and fortify our MDI on top of him, with 1/3 move remaining. The next ruler can attack, if they want to gamble, or wait for the AI to move the longbow. I moved a second pike into Bordeaux, so he can’t take that city, I imagine he is headed for the undefended Lyons. If so, there should be a good chance to hit him in a grassland next turn. You might want to move the pike from Brest over to cover the MDI and treb, in case he decides to attack across the river himself. That’s what I would do, but it would leave a third city ungarrisoned, so I thought I’d leave that call to the next ruler. (Did I mention we need more troops? ;) ).

Meanwhile, our settler at Canary Island founds the new city of Ville Marie, and starts on a temple. It appears to be only 40% corrupt. With it’s new courthouse, Quebec is only 40% corrupt as well! Our explorer heads south along the Andes and finally reaches the Incans. In a similar pattern, I am able to get their 104g and WM for Alphabet. Checking for map sales, the Iroquois have contact with the Aztecs! I give them the secrets of Storytelling to get contact, as I don’t really want to promote too much inter-native trading, so I don’t want to give up my monopoly on Mayan and Incan contact. Aztecs only have 57g and WM for Writing, they must have already gotten Alphabet from the Iroquois. Trade maps again, after exploring more islands with the caravels. England had some cash, and gave me 45g for the new WM, but still has 59 left. They are our only potential luxury customer, as we have an extra wine to sell. They will offer 50g for it, again I leave that to my successor. Trade route should be pretty safe, as we each have multiple harbors, they just haven’t had much to offer before now.

Here's France in 1500AD:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RBC14C_1500Map.jpg

and the New World:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RBC14C_1500NewWorld.jpg

Printing Press is due in 4, at –38gpt. We have 332g, so the deficit’s not an issue. I actually dropped it to 90% this turn, as it’s 4 turns either way. I have to think we will get it first, unless Portugal with their GA can pull it off, we’ve stayed 100% research all along. We can probably afford to rush a temple at one of our new colony cities, I would recommend Quebec to put pressure on the Iroquois and grab the fish, but keep enough in the bank to cover our deficit for the 4 turns remaining. Once it comes in, start cranking out some Colonists to ship over to the New World, and also to fill in at least the one Dotmap city in SE France.

Next research target is a good topic for discussion. I know we talked some about Protestantism, there are pros and cons, I’m not sure at this point the time and effort spent researching an optional tech, and the anarchy, will outweigh the worker boost. Another tempting choice is Colonization, which reveals more resources, and also lets us build our Colonial Capital, the FP equivalent. Another option would be Gunpowder, just so we can get our UU Musketeers while our war with Portugal is still going on, and kick off our own GA. (The more I think about this one, Gunpowder sounds like a bad idea. I’d rather save the GA for when we have lots of colonies trying to build temples or libraries, and we can’t really afford to be building a bunch of 60-shield Musketeers for garrisons, pikes are expensive enough). Not sure of the best answer, I’d like to get some discussion going.

Sistine’s is due in 16 turns, and I think we have a good shot of getting it, since Portugal moved their build to the Azores, and Spain stopped building it entirely. London and Amsterdam are both large cities, but with a lot of water tiles, not too many shields. Paris is up to 13spt, and still growing well. If we do miss it, we have to be a lock for Copernicus. Bordeaux is building the Navigation School small wonder, due in 19. This is powerful, a +2 naval movement AND an explorer every 10 turns, for 160. It also generates 2 culture.

Speaking of culture, we are leading, with 570 culture points, but our cpt is still only 32. I thought it would be better to get our infrastructure in place, then crank out the culture buildings. We also need military, not only for homeland defense, but a bunch of troops to clear barb camps and garrison our settlements in the new world. Unfortunately, we don’t have anyone set up to do that yet, although Lyons is nearly finished with a barracks. Remember to look at adjusting our defenses to defeat the longbow near Bordeaux. Still a big job ahead for our next leader!

Roster:
Justus II ==> Just Played
Romeothemonk ==> On Deck (swap with Cuivienen)
Cuivienen ==> UP NOW
Grahamiam

And, of course, The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RBC-14C_1500_AD.zip)

nice set of turns, Justus :goodjob: excellent start :) thanks for the excellent log. i guess i'll have to improve my SG writing skills as well as my play for this one.

after the temple in Quebec is completed, do we just start pumping out colonists there? maybe 1 unit as well to take care of local barbs?

Nice Work. I would really consider selling the wines as they will be demanded shortly. I might wait till we have a Tech and do a big package deal, but make sure the wines make it to someone else as they will be demanded, probably from England.

Yes, I agree on the wines. England is the only potential customer at the moment, and although they're allied, it's probably not worth tempting them. If we can build a harbor at Ville Marie (Canary Island), we'll have a 3rd source as well. I was just waiting for them to get something to offer, I'd settle for 50g, which is market value (They have 60g, but will only offer up to 50 or so).

As for Quebec, I definitely think we should build 1-2 Longbows to bust camps, then start with colonist/pike pairs. It may be worth it to rush a barracks as well, so the longbows are vet, a few camps will pay back that investment. This is another reason I think we're better off to delay gunpowder, Musketeers cost twice as much, and our new colonies won't be able to afford them. Once Lyons finishes a rax, I would pump out several pikes to ferry over as well.

Check the civilopedia on the river defensive bonus. In most of the conquests it doesn't exist, and I am not sure if it exists in 1.15 AOD. If it is not there, pull the trigger on the longbow. i.e. attack it as we would have a 4-1.5 advantage on the RNG. If it attacks we have a ~4.5-4 advantage. I would probably attack it regardless. I have a deadline for journal publication coming up, so it looks like Sunday is my day to play, but I will lurk around in the shadows like normal. We can get Gunpowder but if we don't hook up our saltpeter it really doesn't matter. I think we have 1 in Europe and there are 2 in the Kentucky/Tennesee region of the USA. Portugal is the only European power without Saltpeter in their borders.
Are we going to get a force of 4-6 MDI and take some islands?? If we take the Azores and Canaries and the such, they make Awesome Naval bases for Privateers to stop others VP's. Plus we can dole out the hurt on the Natives and slow down their wonder builds. Citzen Icha is coastal and should fall pretty quickly if we drop the hammer on them.

Good point on the River bonus, I remember that from other conquests (made no sense to me, why change a basic rule, and not even mention it?). Also, I haven't checked the editor, but worker turns for building roads is reduced, it only takes our worker 1 turn, which is quick even for Industrious. Forests are base 10 turns to chop, like PTW, rather than the 4 turns of C3C, so our Ind. workers take 7 (I haven't chopped any yet).

I would also go ahead and attack the longbow, but I thought I would leave the decision for Cuivienen, who's overdue for a "Got it". Hopefully he saw the swap message.

My concern with the Saltpeter is we may have already connected it, as I've been roading nearly every tile, although it should be in the mountains, which is probably safe.

I like the Medieval Marines idea. We already have Canary Island (that's where Ville Marie is), but the Azores would be nice. Also would be good to harras the native tribes. But we need some defenders first, both for home and the colonies, we're still in a building mode I think.

I hadn't seen the swap yet, but I do now. Got it.

Sorry about the delay, but Bede01 took longer than I expected to finish turns. I'll be playing tomorrow.

I've given the tech situation some more thought, and I don't see the urgency in going for Gunpowder. If we would delay connecting the saltpeter to build more pikes first (and I think we'll have to), why not delay researching the tech, and hope to trade for/buy it cheaply instead? I'd think we would get more benefit from Colonization, which gives us the Colonial Capital (FP). The immediate increase in OCN will help all overseas colonies, whether built nearby or not. It also reveals many of the special treasure resources, and even though we don't want to bring too much treasure back, knowing where they are will be helpful in deciding where to settle. Finally, we will be almost assured of getting to the tech first, meaning more monopoly trading opportunities, whereas I would expect at least one of the AI's is already researching Gunpowder.

1500 AD (IT) --

No one else knows the Maya or Inca, so I take advantage and sell their contacts around.

The Dutch give 6 gpt, 2 gold and their WM.
The Spanish give 3 gpt.
The English give 45 gold.

*Enter*

1501 AD (1) --

The Inca demand that we leave.
We watch the Spanish kill a Portuguese Elite Pikeman.

Edinburgh: Worker --> Library

Trade Communications among the natives. The Iroquois and Inca are left unaware of each other.

1502 AD (2) --

Portugal lands an easily-dispatched Longbowman near Ville Marie. Our Longbowman is now Veteran.

Portugal will give us 1 gold, 7gpt, their WM and the Cape Verde Islands for Peace. We could also get a Worker, but we don't know how many Workers they still have. Done.

Science lowered for Printing Press, due next turn.

1503 AD (3) --

The Netherlands joins the dogpile on Portugal. Good, that means only we can trade with them.

Printing Press --> Banking.

Looks like we overlooked Banking, which we need before we can proceed on to Colonization.

Banking due in 11 at -30 gpt with 334 gold stored away.

Lyons: Barracks --> Pikeman

Switch Brest to a Colonist.

1504 AD (4) --

The Dutch come calling. They will give us 37 gold and their WM for our WM. Done.

Marseilles is also switched to a Colonist. (What good is an Explorer?)

1505 AD (5) --

The English come calling. They will give us 23 gold and their WM for our WM.

Marseilles: Colonist --> Cathedral

The Portuguese begin Magellan's. They have Magnetism.

The Dutch have discovered Printing Press! Argh... Before we could get a decent trade on it, too.

1506 AD (6) --

Brest: Colonist --> Cathedral

Both Colonists get sent out on Caravels, one to a prime spot in Venezuela, the other to the best spot on the map, Cuba.

1507 AD (7) --

ZZZ

~Lost a turn somewhere near here~

1509 AD (9) --

The Dutch now somehow have Magnetism, too... Where are the pulling these techs from? Ah, never mind. The English have Magnetism, too, as well as Printing Press.

1510 AD (10) --

Lyons: Pikeman --> Pikeman

The fastest route to Cuba is across the Ocean, so move across there. However, the fastest route to Venezuela is overland. Alternatively, the Venezuela Colonist could be brought to Africa to get Ivory before Portugal claims it all.

>>SAVE<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RBC-14C_Francis_I_of_the_French,_1510_AD.SAV)

Portugal will give us 1 gold, 7gpt, their WM and the Cape Verde Islands for Peace. We could also get a Worker, but we don't know how many Workers they still have. Done.

we had alliances with spain and england vs portugal, right? won't this ruin our rep?

we had alliances with spain and england vs portugal, right? won't this ruin our rep?

Yes we did, for 20 turns, and we were paid cash up front. :(

Yes we did, for 20 turns, and we were paid cash up front. :(
well, ok. guess we just made things a little harder, making our victory all the more satifying :) we now need to research things mostly ourselves or accumulate large sums of gold to buy techs. when we return treasure items, do we get cash as well or just victory points?

we had alliances with spain and england vs portugal, right? won't this ruin our rep?

What!? I checked diplo, and we didn't appear to have any alliances at all... I'm really sorry if I ruined our rep; I could have sworn that we weren't allide with England and Spain.

We get 200 gold per treasure but we get 1000 VP. It will be a delicate balancing act. I am monkeying with getting 1.15 back on my computer at the moment. I will work on getting us some marines, storming a few villages, getting sistenes, and otherwise teching like a madman.
KEY TO NOTE:
When we get a tech we should trade immeadiatly for GPT. I have in the past been able to get ~200 gpt for each tech. (Rob all our neighbors blind). This gives us cash to rush stuff and the ability to dictate the Tech pace.

Got it. Will post and or play this weekend.

Inherited turn: Sell courthouse in Paris. MM Pairs to get Sistene in 5. Paris had an entertainer, no more. lux tax to 10%. Hawk PP to Portugal for WM, 16 gpt and worker. Get WM, 3 fold and 9gpt from spain.
IBT: Dutch take the long road to portugal through our territory.
Turn 1: Explore and move. Sell WM like a demonic monkey. (I did this every turn and averaged 25 gpt doing this). Rush temple in Quebec.
IBT: Not much
Turn 2: Quebec Temple to Library. MM homefront.
IBT: Movement
Turn 3: Rush library in quebec, get worker, 1 gold and WM from Iro for mapmaking.
IBT: not much
Turn 4: more of the same.
IBT: Natives attack dutch ship.
Turn5: We get banking!! We get Sistene. Disband Trebuchet. Get Magnetism WM 24 gpt and 35 gold from Dutch for banking. Paris starts Copernicus, as their are 3 potential wonder builds and London is the only one to build straight through, and they are after Magellen. 100% science set on colonization. we make 14 gpt. Land in SA.
IBT: Dutch fight more barbs.
Turn 6: Nav School comes online. Brest foes for a Cathedral. Found Three rivers in SA. Land in Cuba. We lead Civ Wide culture.
IBT: NOt much
Turn 7: found Loouisburg.
IBT: not much
Turn 8: Lyons Pike to Pike Edinburough Library to Cathedral. Rush temples in Cape Verde, Ville Maire, Three rivers.
IBT: Spain and portugal do peace.
Turn 9: Marsailles gets scientist till Cathedral finishes. (4 turns)
IBT Not much
Turn 10: I have done nothing this turn. I leave this all to the next player.

I should give the save too I think.The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RBC-14C_Francis_I_of_the_French,_1521_AD.SAV)

Thoughts about my turns. We need military badly. Brest still doesn't have a defender. Its better than 3 cities without defenders, but I had to juggle our limited defenders for MP duty.
Paris is at 20 spt and should go to 23 spt when it grows shortly. Make sure that mountain to be worked is mined. I was busy make our other towns not really stink, and just kept Paris rumbling along nicely on already worked tiles. Paris is at size 11, and is doing fine now.
We will have some nice sulture come online shortly as 3-4 cathedrals come in in the next 10. Spain and Portugal are pillaged to all heck.
We own the three best treasure producing spots on the map. The colonial capital should be built in Marsailles, as that is our second best city, and location doesn't matter.
We should decide shortly if we want to save up and try and steal our way into the native tree. Otherwise after the current wonder push Pairs can build/rush a coleseum. We should be first to colonization as no one else has our science base, and England still doesn't have banking. A new tech should be availible shortly, make sure we get it in trading.

ok, got it. i will probably play and post tomorrow night.

romeo, it's interesting that you state we need military but then dispatched the treb. any reason?

I will post a map in a little bit so we can all talk about settling priorities now that the main treasure locations are secured.

deleted post - uploading problems :)

A Trebuchet doesn't count as an MP. A Trebuchet can't defend, and a Trebuchet is no good on an amphibious assault. That and our unit support costs were hurting us badly.

ok, thanks, just trying to gain a better understanding for my own play. didn't realize we were already paying unit support.

here are the maps i promised earlier.

South America and the Atlantic
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RBC14C-1521AD-1.JPG

North America
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RBC14C-1521AD-2.JPG

imho, i think the North American city, Quebec, ought to go for colonists from here on out (it has a temple and a library atm).

I agree, although we will need some spears for defense, or shuttle some defenders over from home. Also, if anyone has access to the save, check our reputation (try a gpt deal) and see if it's broken or not. I'll be out of town until tomorrow night.

I agree, although we will need some spears for defense, or shuttle some defenders over from home. Also, if anyone has access to the save, check our reputation (try a gpt deal) and see if it's broken or not. I'll be out of town until tomorrow night.
here you go... This is with Spain and we are at peace atm... the good news is that this is only true for Spain and England. All other civ's are willing to take our gpt deals :)

Our reputation is hosed like protesters at a Fireman's convention. It is shot like a target at marksmenship school. It is sunk like the Titanic. My career in analogies is just as hurting.
We have more unit support ability now as Marsaille and Brest are growing up. I would vote against protestantism unless we pull an SGL. For settling, the southern U.S. is rich in resources and treasure producing loot. Alternatively, after we get some cathedrals up, we can go mad MDI, and take panama, and steal into the native tree. But I think Grahamian's turns are fairly well scripted, much as everyone's first 10 are.

Preflight check: Change scientist in Marseilles to taxman. Change Louisburg to a temple. Change Quebec to colonist. Upgrade a caravel. Trade WM around.


IBT: An Iroquois horseman disbands the barb camp south of Quebec!

T1: 1522AD Quebec: colonist -> worker; Spain has Gunpowder; Upgrade another Caravel. Culture value is 1378.

Trades: Portugal: 8gpt and 11g for Banking. Spain: WM, 5gpt and 20g for Banking; England: 2gpt for wines. Trade WM around for some ice cream money. Carrack with a pike moves out for NA.

IBT: Lyons: pike -> pike

T2: 1523AD Sell Inca Storytelling for 6g and WM; Iroquois: WM, 5gpt, 51g for Monotheism. Buy the Dutch WM for WM and 13g then sell around for about 30g. Rush the Temple in Louisburg.
Culture value is 1427.

IBT: Port wants to renew peace treaty? I try to say no so we have some flexibility but the only other option is war which we don’t need right now so I sign.

Paris riots due to rotation of pikes towards Brest, sorry :( Marseilles: cathedral -> pike (can build 1 every 2T); Louisburg: temple -> library

T3: 1524AD Sell WM all around

T4: 1525AD Adjust sci slider, sell WM all around.

IBT: Colonization researched -> naval ordnance (13T @ 100% +14gpt); Marseilles pike -> pike

T5: 1526AD Fort Duquesne Founded -> temple. Pike unloads in Quebec. Rotate pikes so one is in Brest and 2 still in Paris :)

I’m not seeing the 200gpt deals for techs right now but they’re ok. Trades: Spanish: WM, 1gpt, 16g and Gunpowder for Colonization; Dutch: WM, 13gpt, 83g for Gunpowder. Trade WM around for some serious money (about 50g)

IBT: Lyons: pike -> colonist; Quebec worker -> colonist

T6: 1527AD Hurry temple in Fort D. Trade WM for more than chump change.
Total Culture 1643. Spain is starting to settle up the Missisippi, blocking our westward expansion.

IBT: Marseilles pike ->pike; Fort D. temple -> library

T7: 1528AD worker near Quebec roads. Trade around WM’s. England will not give much for gunpowder or colonization, however, since Spain and the Dutch know it and are hurting for gold, I pull the trade: WM, 3gpt, 29g for Gunpowder. Hurry Cathedral in Brest for 156g.
Total Culture 1699.

IBT: Brest cathedral -> colonist

T8: 1529AD A worker joins Marseilles and another joins Bordeaux. Trade Colonization to England for 20gpt and 27g; hold on selling salt to Spain till 9gpt deal expires with her in 1T.
Total Culture 1758

IBT: Lyons colonist -> MDI; Marseilles pike -> Colonial Cap

T9: 1530AD Load 2 pikes, 1 colonist, and 1 explorer onto a Carrack and set sail for NA. 1 worker joins Marseilles. Trade saltpeter to Spain for 11gpt. Trade gunpowder to Portugal for 16gpt and 46g. England is up Protestantism. Rush Cathedral in Bordeaux
Total Culture: 1817

IBT: Bordeaux cathedral -> colonist; Brest Colonist -> University; Portuguese are building Magellan’s

T10: 1531AD Load a pike and colonist onto a Carrack and send towards NA. Worker joins Edinburg to help with Cathedral build. Whoops! Its now shrinking!

Trade with the Dutch for Colonization is available: 4gpt & 95g Not enough to rush anything but still good since everyone else has this tech. Will leave for the next player to decide. Somehow, we really need to accelerate our culture buildup. Perhaps taking on the Iroquois would help? They are now blocking our progress west. We should also consider joining all French workers into our cities to speed our builds. Not much tile improvement is left for the homeland and we’re pay 2gpt for troop support.
Total Culture: 1879

North America. Very Crowded ATM.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RBC14C-1531AD.JPG

I was referring to 200 gpt from all of the other opponents. Sorry for any misunderstanding. This also speeds up the Tech Pace and lets us Dictate the direction.
Nice set of turns. Justus gets to take us to Copernicus.

Sorry, I got it, but won't be able to play until tomorrow night. I will try to look at our overall cpt, and what we need to get there. I definitely think it's time to think about getting into the native track, as ball courts are a BIG boost, and probably the best contribution our core cities can make now. I'll look into that as well.

Preturn
Start off with a round of micromanaging our tiles in France, it’s like one of those little puzzles where you have to slide the squares around to move other squares! Paris is fine for Copernicus in 4, but I can get Marseilles’ Colonial Capital down to 7 at slight starvation. Lyons swaps to a Pike, we need defenders. I also swap Bordeaux to a Barracks, again more defenders, and it’s easier to let the new colonies build their own colonists, while we build the vet defenders here to ship over. Speaking of starvation, our worker at Edinburgh is done with all the tiles, but if I merge him in, he’d starve. We desperately need a harbor for the food, but the Cathedral is too far along, but we’re losing one food per turn. Should just be able to finish it, then short-rush a harbor in time to keep from losing a pop. Trade maps for change, also to get a better idea of what’s out there.

I know we’ve discussed stealing our way into the native tree, then trading for ball courts. Unlike the previous conquests, there’s no single gateway tech, the one we need is Enslavement, and we don’t know if any of them have it yet. I open an embassy w/ the Aztecs, for 34g. Palace, rax, Granary, Temple, Market, Courthouse, working on library. 3 spears for defense. Still in despotism (F3 could have told me that, I forgot to check!), so they haven’t researched Blood Cult yet. Looking at the tech tree again, Enslavement is the tech to open their Unique Units, so if we see some Jav Throwers/Jaguar Warriors/Chasqui Scouts, we know they have it. I send an explorer south from America, and our West Coast caravel heads south as well, to see if we can spot any. Then we’ll know it’s time for a steal.

While looking around the map, I also notice there’s an unclaimed Ivory source on the coast of West Africa, between two other colonies. That’s one of the 4 luxuries for this game, that would be sweet. We happen to have a Carrack with a colonist and pike south of Ireland, I’m gonna redirect that one south.

IBT: Aztecs and Dutch ally vs. Portugal. Portugal loses a longbow killing a Dutch MDI next to Lyons. (I hate watching other people fight in my country! ;) ). Quebec-Colonist>Rax. (We need some troops to clear barbs, or we won’t be able to settle).

1532 The monopoly is broken, I trade the Netherlands Colonization for Protestantism, WM+20. I still don’t see a compelling reason to switch, our core is mostly developed, so the worker boost is marginal, and we’d lose 4-6 turns of culture accumulation. 95 Theses is nice, but not critical since we got Sistines. Anyway, I get another 70g selling Monotheism to the Aztecs (Iro already have it). I use some gold to rush a rax in Trois Rivers, we’ll need some barb-busters down there too. I am using our caravel off of Africa to pick up a longbow from Ville Marie and head to Cuba. We can squeeze another town there easy, but we can’t get past the 2 archers. Our other carrack, headed for the New World, detours north. The Virginia area is pretty crowded, northern Canada is more open. I do send the colonist from Quebec NW, with our lone pikeman, I can rush a defender in Quebec if I have to before reinforcements arrive.

1533 Not much happens, ships a’sailing.
IBT: Spain apparently felt left out that I forgot map trading last turn, and demand our map (and 26g in penalties). Um, OK, I certainly don’t want to get distracted now.

1534 I do the map trading first this turn, and get about 16 of the 26 back. Explorers are running around. Drop science to 70%, still get Naval in 2.
IBT: Copernicus completes! [dance] Start on Leo’s until I have a chance to look at things.

1535 New colonies are founded at New Orleans (in Newfoundland) and St. Louis (Not far from reality, NW of Quebec). Both start temples, of course. Another round of MM, but not too many changes back home. I’m starting to cut some forest, we are mining mountains, but don’t have enough food to work them. We need to clear some forest and irrigate the grass underneath. I also swap Paris to a Musketeer. Several AI cascaded to Leo’s, so I don’t think we would get it, and at 1cpt isn’t that critical. A coloseum is a better value. But I want to get at least 1-2 Musketeers first, so we can trigger our GA when we’re ready. I’m thinking the Ball Court tech would be the best time for it, by then our core can work on the courts, and our colonies could even rush a few with all the cash.
IBT: Edinburgh finishes the Cathedral, start on harbor.

1536 Map trades come in for over 40g this turn, it fluctuates quite a bit. Rush the temple in St. Louis. There’s a Portuguese Carrack headed for that Ivory spot as well, but I think we will get it.
IBT Naval Ordnance comes in! Start on Piracy, hopefully the AI is already working on Metallurgy, whereas we know we have the head start on Piracy, and it’s a required tech. Ville Marie-Pike>Courthouse, Fort Dusq-Colonist>Courthouse, St. Louis-Temple>Courthouse. (At 30 shields, they pay for themselves quickly). Maya start Temple of the Sun.

1537 We do have a monopoly on Naval Ordanance, and there’s some money to be made! England has the most to offer, giving 107+69gpt, then Netherlands for 28+56gpt, Spain has 100+7gpt. Portugal still lacks Colonization, which they give us 30+1gpt for. Our income is nearly 200gpt. Colonist lands in Africa, looks like we got it!
IBT: Paris-Musketeer>coloseum, Lyon-Pike>Pike, Marseilles-Colonial Capital> University, New Orleans-Temple>Courthouse.

1538 Guyanne is founded directly on the Ivory, so we don’t have to waste worker turns, just rush a temple, then a harbor. Since the Mayan’s started Temple of the Sun, they have to have Blood Cult, which means they had to have Enslavement. Yep, an embassy shows 4 jav throwers in Chichen, as well as Temple, Market, Library, and Altar. Chichen is at 753 culture, growing by 15cpt! A safe steal is about 650g, at our current income, that’s only a few turns, although I want to rush a few things first. Then we’ll just have to wait for someone to research Ball Courts and we should be able to easily trade for it. I also realize I still had science turned down to 70%, so I move it back to 100%.
IBT: London completes Magellans. Louisburg-Colonist>Pike.

1539 Well, there’s a Duh move, I sent the colonist from Fort Dusquene to settle on the tip of Florida, but we can’t settle on forest! I’ll move the colonist north until our worker gets there. In fact, we probably need more workers in the colonies in general, with the Col. Capital and a courthouse, most are 50% or less corrupt, so it’s worthwhile to improve their tiles.
IBT: Dutch start 95 Theses.

1540 Do most of the explorer moves, but I haven’t done the map trading, I’ll leave that for the next ruler, to get familiar with our diplo situation. Overall we are continuing to grow. We have two colonists out, one on Cuba, with a longbow escort, that could settle at the SE edge of the island. The other is in Florida, and can be sent north, as we need to clear some forest before someone can settle. There is also an extra MDI and Pike in Brest, waiting for transport. I’ve sent one caravel back to get upgraded.

We should have the money for a safe steal attempt in another 2 turns, we don’t want to trigger a colonial war if we can help it. The Mayan’s are the only ones I KNOW have Enslavement, the others might, but I can’t tell. After that, I THINK we can trade for Ball Courts, once it’s been researched.

Culturally, we are making slow progress. We are at 2486, growing by 75cpt, for 15 cities. At that rate, we’ll win in 233 turns, but we only have 100 left. ;) We basically need to double our cultural base. Lyons needs a Cathedral, otherwise we may want to look at Coloseums in the rest of the core. They’re actually a little better than a University for this scenario, 2pct/120 vs 3cpt/200 shields. Also, we will need libraries in our colonies, but for now, I think we’re better off getting more towns with cheap temples out first, then rushing a bunch of libraries when we run out of room. Also, don’t forget to rush the harbor in Guyana, to get the Ivory online. A Harbor in Quebec would also be nice, long-term.

Here's our Core cities:

And our New World empire: (We also have New Orleans in Canada, and the islands and Guyanne in Africa).

OK, we may as well keep the same rotation, so here's the updated roster, and the Save. Thanks again for the patience.

Roster
Justus II ==> Just Played
Cuivienen ==> Up Now
Romeothemonk ==> On Deck
Grahamiam

nice turns justus :) the MM'ing in the homeland can be intense.

is that river tile W, SW of Quebec a grass or a forrest? we could settle that Fort D. colonist there or on the iron hill if we wanted. a little close to Quebec but it'll be another city and will secure the iron from the local spanish/iro cities.

Nice turns. We can 1 city culture this. I know Paris still needs a Coluseum. Then with Ball courts and maybe 1 more wonder it can eek out. That is a thought to consider. Plus Pairs beats the shorts off of any American city, so getting a native wonder would not be out of the question.

Romeo- cool, I was going to look at that and forgot. The biggest concern would actually be the culture for the native capitals, if they do some serious sacrificing, they could easily pass us. I don't know how efficient they are at it, but I know from the earlier RBC4 (or 5) that they do use them, and they can grow quickly. We will need to watch them regardless, and if needed be prepared to take out a native capital in the late game.

One other point I forgot to mention, I don't know why I didn't see it until I was getting the final screenshots, but there's a grassland SW of Brest, that has road but no irrigation. I think it had some forest chopped? Anyway, it should be irrigated ASAP.

@Grahamiam, I think it is grass also, I see the tile you mean in the picture. That would be a good spot to grab!

4 MDI would flatten Citzen Icha, and a similar quick strike could easily kill Tenochtitlan. I would strike in the next couple of sets of turns before they get pikes however. Plus once the capitals go, there is almost no competition for the native wonders. If we could nab Temple of the Moon with its 2 free techs, that would be superb.

I agree with Amphib assault, it's very doable. I wouldn't rush to do it before we get the Ball Court tech, though, as we don't want to cripple their research until we're sure they have it. As for the Temple wonders, one of our variant rules was no religious improvements/wonders from the native tree, just the Ball courts. Besides, at our current tech pace, I think we'll exhaust the tech tree before we're done anyway.

It would be tempting to take those cities, if the infrastructure is intact, but I think the flip risk would be high. Resettling would be good though, so definitely bring some colonists. Probably looking a little further out, but depends on their tech pace. It might be in your turns! ;)

Also, what are everyone else's thoughts on the Golden Age? Maybe the invasion would be a good opportunity to take along a few Musketeers and kick that off at the same time, to get those ball courts done fast.

re: GA -> i agree that we should try to time it with the aquisition of the ball court tech, though i'm really not clear on how we're going to get it. do we steal enslavement tech and then research it or are we gonna steal both? Piracy is due in 8T but we can steal enslavement tech in 2 or 3T so there's really no time like the present to trigger it, especially if we have to research it ourselves (if we can) :)

If this scenario is like all the other conquests, once we get the first-level "off-flavor" tech, the rest are tradeable, and generally pretty cheap. In other words, once we steal Enslavement, the Ball courts should be available for trade or purchase, because we have the pre-requisite. If not, then we would have to steal again, I guess, but at this point 600g for access to 8cpt buildings is a slam-dunk. Another thing with the GA, lets focus on the required techs, we really want to get to the next age and get Free Artistry. That opens up Art Guilds and Shakespeares, both good culture.

Don't you need Rubber for Ball Courts?
But yes, once you have the 1st one, the other flavors Techs are darn cheap.

We will probably get rubber by knocking off the Maya. There is a source in nicarauga that they control and a source in columbia. Either one would be fine. It will probably be my turns when that time comes, so I will decide how to get it. Note to Cuivienen, please have at least one transport ship near the motherland if you don't go offensive on the natives.

Since we have not heard from Cuivenen for 4 days, I will yell, or hoarsly whisper as the case maybe, got it.
Expect turnlog before noon my time.

Pre-turn: Trade maps like a monkey, only not as demonic this time, only ill-tempered. (gold per turn doing this only averaged 15 gpt :cry: )
IBT: Portugal and Aztecs sign peace.
Turn 1: move colonists. With all the new world explored, I disband our explorers to speed up projects. I realize Africa is still unexplored but, C'est la Vie.
IBT: Movement
Turn 2: Quebec, Rax to Tobbacco plantation (mini factory for 20 shields). Steal enslavement from the Maya. We can also steal to sacraficial alters. I didn't do this as the pope would probably not approve. Later on I try again to get the tech though. Cannot trad for ball-games. fount Soult St Marie in Florida, should be slightly warmer than the real location.
IBT: Aztecs and Inca start temple of the sun.
Turn 3: Start preparing for war.
IBT: not much
Turn 4: renegotiate wines with England for 4 gpt instead of 2. renegotiate peace with the Iro for all their 64 gold. (We are average or better than everyone in military).
IBT: not much
Turn 5: explore and sell (paris colosseum to Musketeer)
IBT: not much
Turn 6: upgrade a caravel to a carrack
IBT: not much
Turn 7: Piracy comes in. Ballgames in 4 at 30%. Build embassy with Inca, and are they hurting. Cuzco has 1 entertainer, 2 spears, building a scout. A safe steal failed against the Inca. I think the pope is telling us something. Sell Piracy to England for WM 8 gold and 41 gpt (all they had). Sell piracy to portugal for 35 gpt and 24 gold (all they had). Sell piracy to spain for 24 gpt and 18 gold ( all they had). Sell pircay to Dutch for 55 gold and 16 gpt (notice a trend here).
IBT: Madrid gets leo's (SGL?)
Turn 8: Pro armies shows up this turn in spain and England. Bummer, but we really don't want it. The extra ten shields for a 2 attack pikeman are not worth it in my opinion. Forces sail for the Maya, 2 musketeers and 4 MDI. rush harbors in Quebec and Guyaane. This way we get our ivory, and Quebec is now a powerhouse, just needs population.
IBT: Portugal and Dutch finally sign peace. Inca start temple of the moon.
turn 9: Marsailles, Uni to coloseum. Brest Uni to col. Quebec harbor to col. Guyanne Harbor to Col. (these are tenative prebuilds for ball courts, much like Paris's bank. Found Baton Rouge in SA.
IBT: barb (singular) threatens Baton Rouge.
Turn 10: did everything but press go. Louis burg builds colonist to plantation. colonist gets on spare carrack. Spain gives 18 gpt for saltpeter. The pope really doesn't want us sacraficing as two steal attempts go bad with the Maya and they declare. Too bad we have 6 amphib units coming there way.
Take their capitol first. It is size 1. Then head north to get their rubber. We have an extra colonist near Cuba in case we need to found a rubber city. Their capitol is the only one ahead of Paris. We have two musketeers along, so a GA should probably be set off. The carracks are on auto move however.

Here we go :king:
Take us out to the Ball-games (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RBC-14C_Francis_I_of_the_French,_1550_AD.SAV)

ok, nice turns romeo. i cannot get to this till tomorrow night so if Cuivenen shows up before then, you can take it and we'll consider it a swap :)

Good turns, and I'm glad you jumped in. I sent Cuivienen an Email Thursday, but was busy last night and he hadn't responded yet.

I'm not sure which tech you're trying to steal, but Ball Courts is the only native improvement we're allowed to build. If we can self-research it ourselves, I would'nt waste the gold on a steal. The other techs don't do anything for us, for this variant. We could start rushing some libraries in colony cities, or let them pre-build for their own ballcourts. I would definitely wait on the GA until we have the tech and the rubber connected, we wouldn't want to speed our pre-builds until they complete...

When I was stealing enslavement, I saw that we could also steal ritual sacrafice. It allows a 10 cpt sacraficial altar that reduces corruption but makes 1 person unhappy for 40 shields. I was trying to steal back to that so that we had a fall back plan if something went wrong.
If we take out the two northernmost Maya cities we should have rubber. We might need to rush a harbor or something.

got it. will play and post tonight.

Sorry about going AWOL. I'm really bogged down in schoolwork right now; I'll be active again once the current (and last) wave is over.

first, the 1560AD save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RBC14C-1560AD.SAV)

Preflight check: Ballcourts in 1T. At war with Mayan. Barb is N of Baton Rouge, which does not have a defender. Switch Cape Verde Courthouse to a Library (this town will max at 3spt so no need to lower corruption atm) and it can have the Library rushed next turn. Try to lower sci slider to 0% since we have a scientist atm but time increases to 4T for Ballcourts, therefore, fire scientists in Sault Ste. Marie and change to taxman. Maya have a spear/settler pair W of 3 rivers. Spain has a pike/colonist pair W of Quebec.

Trades: Salt to Portugal for 21gpt; Sell Theology to Aztecs for 1gpt and 53g (to get cash to rush pike in 3 Rivers)

IBT: Baton Rouge is ransacks by the barb, costing us a whopping 2g. Ballcourts come in -> metallurgy 7T @ 100%, +207gpt(sick of waiting for the lazy Europeans, and Ritual Sacrifice would take 54 turns!); Lyons pike -> MDI; 3 Rivers pike -> pike

T1: 1551AD Found Prairie du Rocher -> temple; Rubber is located W of Takal and SW of Palenque (neither are connected yet); Hurry the Pike in Fort de Chartres and let the longbow join the colonist on the carrack; Change Ville Marie to a Library and hurry production.

IBT: Bordeaux pike -> carrack; Ville Marie library -> worker; Fort du Chartres: pike -> temple

T2: 1552AD Carrack with MDI moves next to Chichen Itza
Battle for Chichen Itza: MDI redlines but kills spear, promoting to elite (2/5); MDI kills reg spear (3/4); MDI kills reg spear (3/4); reg MDI dies to jav thrower and attack stalls (1 jav thrower underneath. Switch Quebec to MDI (2T) and hurry for 48g.

IBT: Quebec MDI -> MDI; English are building Luther’s 95;

T3: 1553AD Send excess Carrack near Louisberg back to the homeland (Brest). We need more troops. Rush Library in Cape Verde. Rush Temple in Baton Rouge.

IBT: Cape Verde Library -> harbor; Baton Rouge temple -> Pike; we get a treasure in Quebec

T4: 1554AD Road to Sault Ste. Marie done so fire taxman there. MDI from Quebec loads into Carrack holding 3 remaining MDI and they takeoff for Mayan. Worker joins Marseilles. Other workers are doing busy work. Hurry temple in Prairie du Rocher

IBT: Paris bank -> Mdi; lyons mdi -> cathedral; New Orleans court -> Library; Prairie du Rocher temple -> Library

T5: 1555AD Battle for Chizen Itza (part 2); MDI kills spear; MDI kills jav thrower; MDI kills jav thrower; elite MDI kills reg jav thrower but attack stalls. Luckily, only 1 unit is scratched (3/4) so attack will continue next turn. Hurry Temple in Sault Ste. Marie; Paris is at size 12 with 2 extra food so I start mining a couple irrigated tiles. Rush Temple in Fort du Chartres

MM sci slider to 90% (due in 1T), All the Euros have this tech already

IBT: Mayan ask for mercy, we say no. Metal -> mining 6T @ 90% (+215gpt); Marseilles colosseum -> barracks; Sault temple -> library; Fort du Chartres temple -> library

T6: 1556AD Battle for Chizen Itze (part 3): MDI kills spear; dies to jav thrower; elite MDI kills redlined jav thrower and we take the city -> harbor Unload a colonist, 2 muskets, and a longbow. Switch Lyons to an MDI so the carrack that will be here in 2T will have 4 MDI to take with him.

IBT: Paris MDI -> MDI; Quebec MDI -> MDI; Ville Marie worker -> harbor;;
T7: 1557AD 3 MDI and 1 longbow move out of Chichen to take Palenque; gpt drops from 211 to 77; Hurry MDI in Lyons; hurry colosseum in Brest; Hurry Library in Fort Duquesne

IBT: Lyons MDI -> MDI; Brest colosseum -> frigate; Fort D library -> Tobacco Plan

T8: 1558AD move some stuff around; units move next to Palenque

IBT: Paris MDI->MDI; Marseilles barracks -> MDI; Edinburge University -> colosseum

T9: 1559AD Palenque: Longbow dies to spear; MDI kills spear; elite MDI kills 2/3 spear, taking the city; Outside of Chichen: MDI kills archer (2/4)

IBT: Bordeaux carrack -> colosseum; Louisburg tobacco plantation -> worker;

T10: 1560AD I fill a carrack with 4 workers from France and send them towards Central America. Pike moves out of 3 rivers towards the undefended Baton Rouge. Colonist in Chichen Itza waiting for orders. Muskets are also there, ready to start a GA if desired. Marseilles changed to Palace as a ballcourt prebuild.

Mining due in 2T. Current culture score is 4198, Paris is at 1094. There are 2 workers outside Fort D, 1 turn from finishing a mine. I let them finish is the Carrack in Fort D used up all it’s movement points to get there. Paris is optimized @ 23spt, +0fpt, size 12. Ball courts cost 150 shields so Paris could make it in 7 turns.

Looks good. A quick blitz should put the finishing touches on the Maya and get our G.A. Has anyone done calculations to see if Paris can do a one city culture? Can we actually make it??

Paris is doing 18cpt right now. if it were doing 36cpt, it could get close but lose.

the following will be available soon:
ball court, 150 shields (10cpt), need to connect rubber.
artist guild, 140 shields (3cpt), need to research Free Artistry
Shakespears, 400 shields (4cpt), need FA
Newtons, 400 shields (3cpt), need Sci Method

current culture in the city is 1094.

imho, it looks like we need to steal enslavement to get the alters, 40 shields (10cpt) if we want to have a chance at this. if we turn off research, we can make +273gpt atm and we need 1564g to do a safe steal on the Inca, 968g for the Aztecs.

We actually will make more gold at full research as we can then sell Tech for a ton of gold. That and we still get the Tech as well. I would continue to research on full, and trade like crazy.

I definitely agree with maintaining full research, we'll get the best total value out of our economy that way.

I've been busy this weekend, but I will try to take a look at our cultural situation tomorrow. Definitely go for Ball Courts at full speed, and research toward the Art Guilds. I think we have a better chance of civ-wide culture than the one-city. Either way, though, we can't build the altars or religious wonders, that was part of our restrictions. I think, though, with ball courts coming on line, we should be in good shape, especially with a GA to fuel some rushing.

Cuivienen is up, and can hopefully post a 'got it' tomorrow. If you can't take it, let me know that too, and I'll take it tomorrow night.

hmmm... By tomorrow night I'll be done with all major schoolwork. I'll play then. Got it.

sorry, i forgot to add to my post that i did a silly thing during my turns. a treasure came in and i tried to load it onto a carrack headed back. while messing around trying to figure out why i couldn't do this, i accidently "captured" the treasure with the pike in Quebec. I'm not sure but this may paint a big bulls-eye on that pike. i did not send him back since he's the only defender. however, we may want to consider doing that soon.

Good point, I don't know exactly how to get treasures back, this is my first time with this Conquest. If it's similar to the Relics from Middle Ages, then they have to be captured, and transported back with the 'escort'. A couple wouldn't hurt, as they're worth 100 or 200g IIRC, but not too many, as we don't want our VP total to go too high.

Yes, Justus is correct. You capture the Relic and Transport him back to Paris. It is always a good idea to capture the treasure even if you don't intend on returning it as then it doesn't count as a unit. Treasures are worth 200 gold and 1000 VP. We might want to consider a small navy of Privateers to help assist some of our fellow powers slow the VP pace.

:wavey: ok, what's the plan? still waiting for cuivienen or we gonna let him concentrate on his schoolwork this week?

That would be A call for Justus to make as he is next in line. And our leader.

Well, I was hoping to see a reply from him, one way or the other, but it's been over 48 hours, so I'll take it. Hope to be able to play tonight.

OK, I've had a chance to look over the save, and run some numbers. As Grahamiam mentioned, a One-City victory in Paris would be hard to pull off, the buildings are available, but can't be rushed, so by the time they completed, we would need still more cpt, I don't think it would work out. Civ-Wide, though, is another story. I have attached an image of my analysis. We need roughly 16,000 more civ-wide culture, with 80 turns remaining. So we need about 200 cpt, and we are at 104cpt. However, at 8cpt each, it'll only take 15-16 Ball Courts to make up the difference, and between pre-builds, our Golden Age, and some strategic rushing, we can have most of those in place within the next 10-15 turns.

Shown below is our culture projections based on current culture, with no changes where we would be in 10 turns, and where we can be in 10 turns by building 15 Ball Courts. The difference can be made up with a few more courts, or by adding Art Guilds into our core once we get that tech. We should be in good shape, at this point the limiting factor is getting workers to road the rubber by Palenque. I hope to rush a couple at Fort Dusquene and Louisville, and that, plus the 4 headed over from africa, should get the road done soon. I'll probably delay the GA a few turns, until I have a better ETA on the rubber, I wouldn't want to outproduce our pre-builds. ;)

thanks! i now have hope :) btw, there are 2 workers near quebec that can lend a helping hand as well ;) good luck!

Do we have 15 cities? I only remember 5-6 in France, 1 in scotland, 5 in America and a few 1 tile islands. There might be some unholy rushing to get them all up in time.

We currently have 21 cities, several colonists either active or near completion, and should be able to add a couple more Mayan cities in the next few turns, so that won't be a problem. In fact, we have 10 cities that already have libraries. I think we'll have about 8 cities that can self-build the Ball Courts during our GA, and then rush another 6-8 with GA income, as well as getting cheap temples in our new cities.

Pre-Turn: Not too much MM’ing to do, our cities are in good shape. I swap our most productive cities to some type of prebuild, either Bank or Colosseum, in anticipation of getting the rubber connected soon. Paris has nothing to use, so it builds a Musketeer. I can back science off to 80% and still get Mining in 2. Spend a little cash, rushing workers in Fort Dusq. And S.St. Marie, to be sent to the rubber. Also rush a temple in Palenque and a Courthouse in Guyanna. Tobacco is considered a strategic resource, so it’s tradeable. I sell some to Spain and Netherlands for 9gpt each. Also sell maps around, netting about 7g.

IBT: Palenque-Temple>Spice Factory, Guyanna-Court>Worker, S.St. Marie-Worker>worker, Ft. Dusq.-Worker>Tobacco, St. Louis-Colonist>worker.

1561: Move 3 MDI and a Musketeer S toward the Mayans. Rush a temple in Chichen.
IBT: We enter the Renaissance as we complete Mining, start immediately on Free Artistry. Paris completes the musket, starts another as pre-build. Chichen-Temple>court, Quebec generates another treasure.

1562: Sell Mining to the Dutch for 57g+62gpt, Spain for 30g+11gpt, I could have gotten Professional Armies, but it just adds 10 to the cost of our Pikes, so I pass. England has no money. Workers land at Palenque. Spend a little gold hurrying workers in several cities. Also load 2 pikes from the continent to send toward the New World.
IBT: A Privateer sails out of the fog to sink our Carrack full of MDIs. :mad:
Probably Spanish, it came from the area around Panama City. Louisburg-Worker>Court, Guy-Work>Library, Ft. Du Chatres-Worker>Court, Praire du Rocher-Worker>Court.

1563: 3 Workers road the Rubber in one turn. Rush Harbor at Chichen. St. Phillipe is founded NE of St. Louis. Our forces are positioned to attack Copan:
Vet MDI kills Reg Spear, losing 1hp
Vet MDI dies to reg Spear.
Elite MDS kills reg Spear, losing 4hp, taking Copan and a worker. (Has Gold and Silver)
Vet Musketeer kills reg Archer in the open, which triggers our Golden Age! [dance]
I check for minor adjustments, we can now get Free Artistry in 6 turns at 100%.
IBT: Chichen-Harbor>Court

1564: Swap our pre-builds to Ball Courts. Islands (Ville Marie, etc) will need harbors first.

1565: Nothing much, workers start to clear some forests. Take our two treasures from Quebec, with 2 reg pikes, and send them home.
IBT: Marseilles is first to complete, Ball Court>Bank (Pre for Art Guild), Baton Rouge-Worker>worker.

1566: Rush temple in Copan, move troops to Tikal.
IBT: Copan-Temple>Court, S.St. Marie-Worker>worker.

1567: Several GPT deals finally, so there should be some money available, but England already got Mining, so we don’t have much to sell but maps. I do get 7gpt from Spain for Dyes, and sell wine for 4gpt and tobacco for 4gpt to England. Rush the Ball Court in Guyana for 528g, we want to maintain cultural dominance here. Battle of Tikal:
Elite MDI kills reg spear, losing 2
Elite Musketeer kills reg spear, losing 4
Vet Musket kills unfortified reg spear, losing 1, and Tikal is ours.
IBT: Paris, Brest, Quebec, Guyana all complete Ball Courts, start pre-builds for Art Guilds. New Orleans-Harbor>Ball Court, Louisburg generates a treasure.

1568: Pikes have returned home, so I cash in the two treasures, netting 400g. We don’t want to do too many, but a few now can pay for some key rushes. I rush the Harbor at Ville Marie, and temples in Tikal and St. Phillipe.
IBT: Free Artistry comes in, what to research next? Mercantilism is tempting, but I would guess the AI will go after that as well, so I go for Counter-Reformation. It allows Jesuit Colleges, another culture building (although at 200sh for 2cpt, not a great value), but also allows Missionaries. These are 30sh invisible units, that can enslave Archers, Spears, and native Unique Units into workers. Also spot other invisible units. I think they will be useful to protect and/or expand our new world holdings. It will only take 6 turns at 100%, then we can decide where to go next. In other news… Lyons-Ball Court>Art Guild, Ville Marie-Harbor>Ball Court, Tikal-Temple>Courthouse, St. Phillipe-Temple>Worker.

1569: Now we can get some money out of our AI friends. Dutch can pay 88gpt+125g for Free Artistry, Spain gives 160+32gpt, England 25gpt+11. Again, I avoid Professional Armies. We should be able to afford to continue rushing where needed, I rush a couple courthouses and a colonist, but leave most of the gold for the next leader.
IBT: Ft. Dusq-Court>Tobacco Plantation, St. Lous-Court>Ball Court, S.St. Marie-Colonist>Court.

1570: Did some worker and troop movements. I have 2 vet pikes headed back to the New World, with an empty Carrack on top as an escort. We will need to build up our navy, once the current round of Ball Courts and Art Guilds are done. There is a Colonist, with a couple workers, S of Copan, there is room for another town there. I have another colonist headed for a spot SW of Quebec, I irrigated the spot I had planned on (doh!), but you can still settle there, or pick another spot. I wouldn’t settle ON the iron, as it can be a productive tile to work, with a courthouse.

I have noticed a few weird things, like Louisburg is not able to build a Spice factory, or Sugar plantation, although there is spice next to it. Maybe it has to be roaded, as well as in the radius? Not sure. Anyway, even if we don’t need the treasures, they act like mini-factories, for 20 shields, not a bad price. As far as the treasures go, we are currently at 6979VP, with 70 turns to go. With minimal combat, we could afford to turn in one every 2-3 turns, without going over the VP limit, but I wouldn’t cut it that close. I would turn in a few more, just to pay for rushes, then I guess we start disbanding them? Not sure how to go about that, probably best to use up some of our regular pikes or free explorers to capture them, (Can an explorer capture one?), :confused: and then disband them in a town that needs a few shields. I don’t know the best answer here.

Here’s our map of our New World empire, focused on the former Mayan lands. We could easily stop here and make peace, as we are running out of troops, we barely have enough left to garrison the towns we have. We could try to push further south, but I’m not sure what’s to be gained, at least until we can get some reinforcements over, and that’ll have to wait until after the round of cultural building. Once Missionaries are available, it would be nice to send a few out to ‘worker-farm’, enslave some Mayan troops, as we have a lot of jungle-clearing to do.

OK, here’s our cultural situation now. Paris is at 1298, gaining 26/turn. Even with Shakespeare, Art Guild, and another wonder, I don’t see it hitting the 4,000 mark, but it will certainly be the most cultured city on the map. We could swap over and complete the Art Guild, then back to Shakespeare, no one else has started it yet, and Paris is easily the most productive city on the map. We do want Shakespeare, though, as it will allow Paris to grow beyond 12. When it completes, we will need to re-irrigate several tiles so it can grow.

Civ-wide, we are at 5444, gaining 162/turn. With current projects scheduled to complete in the next 10 turns, we will be at 190, and we can easily rush 2-3 ball courts by then, to push us up over the 207cpt we will need by that point, as you can see in the chart. After that, continue to build and/or rush culture, which will bring our finish date closer, and keep an eye on the VP status of our rivals. Spain is closest, at 5205, but we don’t have a fleet yet to block their treasure flow. Once the high-payoff culture buildings are done (Ball Courts and Art Guilds), I would focus on Privateers, so we can interrupt the flow without provoking a war. They should work best in ‘wolf packs’ of 3-6 ships, since the AI is pretty good at escorting transport ships in C3C.

Here’s the save, have fun with our Golden Age!!

Roster:
Justus II = = > Just Played
Cuivienen = = > Skipped until further notice
Romeothemonk = = > Up now :)
Grahamiam = = > On Deck

Looks great. Awesome set of turns. I look to get this in the morning tomorrow. Civ-wide culture it is then.

very nice! at some point, after the culture push, we want ship building as we will probably need Man-0-Wars to hold onto our culture, in case someone openly declares. we should also push for new colonies so we can pull this off with some comfort ;)

On my set of turns I will primarily focus on ripping out as much culture as possible. All of my cities builds will be for culture. If the culture builds become exhausted, then I will crank Privateers and Muskets/MDI. For research, I will probably go for the one that allows Newtons, so we can get copernicus and Newtons in Paris. The longer we delay researching shipbuilding, the more expensive it is for the AI's, and the less likely they are to actually research it. I might go after the Milling Tech too, as factories sound cool.

We have 13-14 turns left on our GA, which should be enough time for Conter-Reformation and one other first-row tech, either Scientific Method (Newtons) or Shipbuilding. Newtons' would be nice, if we time it right we can complete Shakespeare's before Newtons' is available, so there will be no cascade. We can make a push for naval supremacy now with Frigates, which is probably a good idea once culture is done, and upgrade to Man-o-war when the tech becomes available. I'd be content to let the AI research that one for us, as we won't need it before they have it, if that makes sense. Mercantilism is another nice tech, the Commercial Docks would be a big boost with several coastal core cities. Definitely need some Privateers, though, so we can interdict their treasure runs without provoking war. We want to keep those gpt payments coming in!

EDIT: Left out the word Shakespeare's, made that sentence sound redundant... ;)

ok, sounds right. no need to give the ai new toys to turn on us :)

OMG!!! LMAO!!! Don't forget sacrifical altars give you culture as well...and slaves give 40.

Heh, think you guys can get the Temple of Kukulcan? It gives 8cpt, acts as a Leo's, and costs 40.

OMG!!! LMAO!!! Don't forget sacrifical altars give you culture as well...and slaves give 40.
those builds are off limits (self imposed, see opening posts) and we shouldn't need them according to Justus' calcs ;)

I'm finally ready to return to my SGs -- I'll take this after romeothemonk.

Pre-turn: Hurry art guild in Paris. Rush courthouse in Louisburg. Sell Granary in Cape Verde (capped at size 2). Change clown in Tikal to Scientist. Advance on Yaxchilian. Various MM. Get WM 33 gold, and 10 gpt from Portugal for FA, everyone else had it already.
IBT: Q bowmen takes 2 HP off of a Musketeer. Portugal and England sign peace. Looooong war. :mischief:
Turn 1: Paris Guild to Shakespeares. Edinburgh Ball court to guild. Louisburg courthouse to library. Found St. Genevieve. Lose an MDI at Yaxchilian. Ru