So we are the Dutch, we play a deity level game and our goal is a Victory Point win, without waging wars in Europe! VP's can be gotten by bringing back treasure units to our homeland (1000 VP each). We have to get a total of 35,000 VP's. These treasure units can be obtained by having mines, factories, trapper camps, and plantations near resources. While this all sounds very logical, I have no idea what it means atm. This is my first attempt at this scenario!

We are very small. Three cities on the edge of the map. Our traits are agricultural and seafaring, very useful for this scenario. We start with Navigation, Education, Exlporation and Astronomy. Wonders that we already can build:

Dias' voyage: gives us extra ship movement and a colonist every 8 turns. This colonist is a settler that only requires one citizen from a city.
Navigation scholl: increases or ship movement by two and gives an explorer every 10 turns. This is a small wonder, which everyone can build.
Copernicus: same as in the epic game

Anyone with a good general strategy? I assume that we have to grab as many resources and luxuries as we can to produce the treasures? I made a roster, but comments are welcome. I didn't put myself at the start, because my experience with this scenario is zeor. That was the case with other scenarios as well (the Danes in medieval times), but after a good discussion and clear gameplan the first turns turned out to be quite easy to play.

ROSTER:
-Ridgelake
-Aggie
-Yom
-barbslinger

Umm, can I join, or is it too late already?

As for strategy, I've played this scenario in Singel Player as The Spanish on Monarch and whomped the computer's butt. I'd reccomend puting our first colony on the Panamanian Isthmus, as that will allow us quick access to both oceans (and the ability to move troops/settlers between them), also try to send colonists to some of the better African areas, as they are closer to Europe, and therefore have less corruption (not to mention that hauling Swag back to your capitol will be much easier). But those are just a few observations I made while playing my Reagent game. As for luxuries, there are only 2 luxury resources: Ivory & Wines, all others (except fish and whales) are strategic. Since Gem, Gold and Silver mines produce treasures the fastest, try to grab as many of them as possible (the particular game I alluded to I was getting over 5000 VP/5 turns, and that was only because I was having trouble keeping unit and ship production up with the treasure production).

Hi Hikaro Takayama. I think that 4 is a maximum for a game with 150 turns. But there are porbably other SG's in this series with open spots. You could check out this RBCiv discussion thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=68410&page=9&pp=40)

Okay, then, I guess I'll just haveta start my own SG.

Oh, and one more thing about possible strategies for this Scenario, when it becomes feasible, try to steal the Enslavement tech from the NA civs, that way you can research ballgames in a fairly short time, and (if you followed the previous suggestion) get access to some rubber in either southern Mexico or Northern SA, and build ball courts. Ball courts make 4 unhappy citizens content, cost about as much shields as a cathedral, and generate 8 culture per turn, with only 1 gpt upkeep, so this is a strategy worth trying. It worked wonders (no pun intended) in my game.

Thanks for the tips :)

I know that when I played as the French one time the Dutch got very powerful controlling the islands near Europe. I can't remember if there is a big enough island near Europe for a core but the Dutch was powerful. They didn't go for the big presence in America though. I think it may be advisable to try to get the Dia's Voyage and really settle, as Hikaro states, the African areas for treasure and the other islands as much as possible. If we can't declare, I presume we can retaliate upon a foreign aggressor and that Paris would be nice to have.
I am a noob though except for one crack at Emporer as France. I was well on my way to victory in that game with a core in America set up in the Bayou country from Florida to Virginia and over towards St. Louis. I had also knocked out Spain and then went to bed and never continued. I can open the map for resource locations. I don't know if this is spoiler because I'm sure many people have played this scenario.

Checking in. I have not played this scenario yet, so I am in the same boat as you, Aggie. I will open the game and try to familiarize myself with things and comment. Aggie, do you want me to start it off or someone more experienced with this scenario?

Ridgelake, I'm OK with you starting this. Do we need to discuss this further before you start? Or is it relatively straight forward?

I looks like we have to start an initial landgrab on the other continent.

I think we want to research Printing Press, to get the colonist. And also Colonization and Mining appear to be important. Piracy -getting the Privsateer- appears to be a very useful tech as well. One of the goals is to prevent an other European civ from getting the VP's...

Regarding goverment types: Protestantism appears to be a good government, but we have to research/buy a non-required tech.

I'm thinking that if we have 2 ships to send out initially we should send a settler, defense and a WORKER to get the jump on the other civs in developing a new core. I don't know if we have 2 initial workers but if we do we can quickly replace him. If we go the settling america route, and if we can get the land near Virginia, we can build a nice core there. One ship should then tour south to pick up the other contacts from the natives for cash and contact trade value.

Checking in. I'm pretty much a noob at this scenario, as I've only played once as the Aztecs (and I never finished the game) so I really don't have much to say until I take a look at the civilopedia.

I think I played Spain at Monarch level. Cuba would be a great place to settle.

LOL, looks like most of the teams are going for Cuba! I have a question if you guys don't mind:

Are you going to bring a worker to chop the forest there so you can grab the ideal spot(river & fish I think,) or just settle next to the forest? Same thing really goes for a few other places(like Florida.)

Ok, I will get this started. I like your ideas, barbslinger. I will try to get something up by Sunday night US time.

Edit, do we want to follow Gobi Bear's "style" guidelines and declare war on Spain for the first 80 turns? Here are his comments (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=68410&page=16&pp=20)

Personally, I wouldn't do so. The game's going to be hard enough with three crammed cities on diety. But if the rest of the team agrees, I'll go along with it.

Ridgelake, we should not declare war on Spain and should generally avoid wars in Europe.

RBC14B Dutch

1490AD (0) The French, Spanish, Portuguese, and English start on Sistene.

Load a settler, explorer, and pike into a galleon and set sail. A worker, pike, and MDI in another to join it.

Brussels starts on a worker. Amsterdam on Navigation School, and Antwerp on MDIs. Printing press due in 13 at max science and –36gpt per turn. We have 500 gold to start

Diplo check reveals that all Euro countries are at peace and have about the same map. I send out one of our two remaining boats to fogbust a bit. I expect these to be brought back once we have PP and can make colonists.

1491 (1) snooze

1492 (2) pick up about 20 gold selling maps. Our boats are about to make landfall.

1493 (3) Brussels worker to explorer. Sell maps around.

1494 (4) same

1495(5) Make contact with the Iroquois and sell them Alphabet for their WM and 110gold. They have 2 cities and are located approximately where New York City and Buffalo are located. I also see furs that are unclaimed. I sent our settler north and he is in the artic ocean north of Canada. I will drop them off to settle south.

I now sell Iroquois contact and WMs around to get about 125 gold.

1496 (6) drop off settler, pike and explorer in north Canada. That boat continues to explore to the west. Another boat is going down south. The other with the units is going to drop off in Canada as well.

1497 (7)

IT France demands 50gold and TM. I cave.

1498(8) I find gold in the Caribbean islands

France made first contact with the Maya and Aztecs. Our WM gets us contact with the Maya. I sell them writing for 50 gold.

1499(9) Our WM bring contact with the Aztecs. We now have all contacts. Every turn, we make a lot of gold from map trades.

1500(10) Our settler is on a spot that can get furs, iron, and fish, all in its second ring. I recommend it.

We get PP in 2 turns. That allows for Colonists and we should make several. We need to settle, settle, settle. Our home lands will be maxed out for shields soon. Probably in 15 more turns. Then, we can move them to the West.

The Rocky Mountains seem to have a lot of gold. Gold seems to be the best resource for making VPs.

My thought is to stay to the North and exploit Canada and the Western US. Those seem to be good territories and hopefully will not be heavily fought over.

Good luck, and have fun! :hammer:


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RBC14B-1500AD.JPG

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RBC14B-1500AD.SAV)

Well, I learned a few things:

1) Cities can only be founded on open tiles. No founding on forests. They must be cleared first. That wonderful site that I pointed out doesnt work. Instead, I would try the spot due east of teh furs on the river/lake.

2) Ocean tiles take 2 movement points off boats.

Got it.

ROSTER:
-Ridgelake
-Aggie------>up
-Yom------->on deck
-barbslinger

I agree with settle, settle, settle in western Canada and America.

Should I simply contstantly build colonists in Antwerp and Brussels while Amsterdam finishes the Navigation school? Also, the 2nd settler could go to the hill on the lake, S of the fish, NW of the furs and with iron two tiles NW. Is that a good spot?

EDIT: We have only 1 settler :blush: So that should go back to the furs?

Ridgelake can't post from work, so he asked me to post this:

"For build orders, I would get 1 city on military, probably pikes, and the other on colonists.

It likewise would not hurt to have another explorer, though the navigation building will build them in time. Being first to map each continent will yield a lot of gold in map sales. Map sales were financing 100% research during my turn.

We will need military. There are barbs on the continents, not to mention the other nations. So we can't send out unescorted settlers.

We are going to have a hard time keeping up in tech with only 3 cities. We can still get monopoly techs with only 4 other researchers. But we have to guess right. Maybe try banking next, or the top line. The AI always like the military ones such as are on the bottom.

Our 3 cities can only produce about 26-29 shields per turn. We need to make sure that we MM to our best ability.

Good luck, and have fun!

Ridge"

I will play tomorrow CET so additional comments are welcome.

IHT: Traded maps around and got 45 gold from the civs. I'm sure Ridgelake did it in turn 10, but it appears that further info on the map again got us something...

IT: England founds a city west of the furs/river/lake. That spot is still available though. Brussels: explorer->explorer.

Turn 1 (1501 AD) Research to 60%, PP in 1. Map trading.

IT: PP comes in, Spain starts Leo.

Turn 2 (1502 AD) The AI got PP on the same turn :( I choose Gunpowder next, it appears to be a tech not appealing for the AI. Portugal already discovered Magnetism. I assume that we want Colonization soon, but trading could get us there as well.
At 100% we get Banking in 12.
Brussels switched to pike, Antwerp will be on Colonists after this pike.

IT: Antwerp: pike->colonist.

Turn 3 (1503 AD) Map trading.

IT: The French start Magellan.

Turn 4 (1504 AD) New Amsterdam founded, starts with a Colonist. Amsterdam grew to size 12, so a scientist is hired to keep the people quiet.

IT: Portugal finishes Sistine and starts Leo. The rest cascades to Leo.

Turn 5 (1505 AD) A lot of MM-ing to not waste shields in our core.

IT: Antwerp: Colonist->Colonist.

Turn 6 (1506 AD) Map selling.

IT: Spain declares war on the Portuguese. Brussels: pike->pike. France starts Copernicus.

Turn 7 (1507 AD) France and Spain know Gunpowder. Wrong bet :( We still need 5 turns to get it. I buy it from France for WM and 511 gold. Emngland gives us Magnetism for Gunpowder and 89 gold. Portugal gives us 30 gpt and 55 gold for Gunpowder :D
I decide to research Metallurgy at max.

IT: England demands 29 gold and world map. I tell her no. We are at war with the English. France finishes Leo. One of our ships is attacked by barbarians.

Turn 8 (1508 AD) The reason for risking the war vs Emngland is Jamestown. This is close to New Amsterdam and just grew to size two. Our army is also equal in size compared to England. We should be able to survive.
MDI moves to Jamestown with pike.

IT: An amphi attack of an English MDI fails. Our fortified pike survives. IT: Antwerp: colonist->colonist. Spain finishes Copernicus.

Turn 9 (1509 AD) MDI kills a pike in Jamestown, but it has another one...

Turn 10 (1510 AD) MDI (3 hp's) attacks the 2nd pike in Jamestown and we take the city. It is immediately ordered to produce a worker.
We meet the Inca with an explorer that I dropped in Panama. Alphabet and world map gives me world map and 172 gold.
Colonist and two pikes are dropped close to New Amsterdam.

-France gives us 135 gold and wm for Contact with the Inca and wm
-Spain gives us wm, 32 gold and 3 gpt for wm and contact with the Inca
-Portugal gives us wm, 4 gpt and 2 gold for wm and contact with the Inca.

NOTES: I would make peace with England asap now. They provoked us and I didn't think I needed to be threatened. Jamestown is a nice price. We are equal in technology and our economy is good as well... There is still an explorer in the Caravel, meant for the southern part of America. Trading maps every turn remains important! I protected our workers in Holland for amphibious attacks of England.

To the NE of New Amsterdam we have a colonist. The worker close to New Amsterdam is chopping a forest, to speed up our colonist build in the city.

Remember that we shouldn't go to war in Europe.

ROSTER:
-Ridgelake
-Aggie
-Yom------->up
-barbslinger->on deck

Sounds good Aggie. Nice work on getting Jamestown. That should hamper the English getting set up in America for a while. Is there any reason we couln't drag any othe others into this war. I'm thinking it's because we are weak at home and 16 more turns may be too much to bear though we are enjoying war happiness. Sic'ing France on England would probably help. Your thoughts?

I'd like to avoid conflict in Europe. I'd like a genuine race to the new lands instead of crippling other nations at home. The fact that I accpeted war vs England was merely them bullying us. Jamestown was to nice a price though.

I would make peace asap or maybe until they get a next tech to cheaply get via a peace deal.

I played a DG games with the Dutch yesterday; absolutely boring, I won with ~60k of treasures for milking, with Portugal @25k, and, the only surprising thing, the Iroquese @17k :lol: . And I never ever fought anyone except the 2 Barbs on Cuba, I did not open the City screens after the initial turns and had no GA. So in fact, you should have absolutely no problem to in this.
But I found several pretty surprising (and partially annoying, being mentioned nowhere) points:
- Protestantism is not tradable. I spent a lot of Gold to steal it, and couldn't trade it to someone else :mad: . And the corruption was virtually the same, btw. But the increased Workers speed is nice.
- Dutch have a severe disadvantage in not being able to build cheap Pikes later.
- Magellan's in Antwerp is doable and absolutely worth it - it acts as an Offshore Platform as well!
- The AI research path is absolutely unpredictable. They did research everyting including the 2nd tiers before Banking...
- Check the frequence of the shipment productions. They vary extremely - a single Gold Mine easily spawns as many treasures as 5 Furs Camps.

Ridgelake's comments:

"A very nice turn and an excellent job of getting Jamestown! :hammer: I agree that making peace with England soon is a good idea. I don't recall how far away they are from another tech. Waiting for one may cause us to lose some boats.....

I played into the scenario in another game. I found that ship movement is significantly greater than land movement. Because of this, we might want to make a harbor city in the Hudson Bay. There is a river that can be seen on your map in the top left corner that flows into the Bay. That would be a very good spot for a harbor town and access to all of our shipping routes back home. This spot would again be faster than going over land routes to the east coast of North America.

I think a colonist should be sent fairly quickly to grab the horses and wheat that is shown on the bottom left of the map. We need horses and the wheat will help us spam workers/colonists.

In my test game, I did switch to Protestarianism. It had trade bonuses like a representative government. It does only allow 1 MP versus Catholic 2. But it does have the faster workers. Like Doc, I could not observe a material reduction in corruption. But the bonus trade and faster workers would be worthwhile. But as Doc also said, it is not tradeable other than to England. They will research it first which will help reduce our research costs.

There is a lot of gold in the Rocky mountains. Setting up a network of towns in Canada and the U.S. will certainly help support this harvesting. I would not be surprised if our main competition for this land is the Aztecs and Iroquois.

In my test game, I found explorers to be very effective at blocking competing settlers and/or standing on a desired spot. With the requirements of not founding on forest, there are only but so many good spots for cities. Explorers make nice "reservation agents."

I'll post more when I have more thoughts.

Ridge"

Yom, you're up!

From my experience Yom has his best playing during the weekend. If he does not respond in 24 hours I'll post a got it and we can swap.

That's OK barbslinger.

I was planning on playing it tonight (my first free weekday in ages), but my laptop has refused to cooperate :mad:. Just when I thought I found a way to get conquests to work, my computer starts to refuse to recognize the cd again! Skip me for now. I'll let you know when I get the laptop working and take a turn then.

Shoot went to play but the save was for RBC14F - Maya - Diety. Went to uploads and that is the only one there. : oops, aggie thinks at this moment: I'll have to play tomorrow. I was ready too.

:blush: Is this better?

Playing now!

RBC14B – 1510AD

Preturn – Well not much to do. MM is not really there. Got 3 bucks off the Portugese for WM. We have another colonist heading west on a boat. Can’t quite see how we want our core set up over there yet. I do like the idea of a harbor on the Hudson. I think the current colonist is heading to the furs further west. The next one as well. Will our core be include Salamanca in it someday? I like the idea of a trapper camp in New Amsterdam. It’s a treasure every 12 turns and the sooner the better. I swap it’s colonist for camp in 3. Lizzy is still not talking. The explorer in the caravel is heading to Africa.

IT – Some very quick movement and I think I saw someone, French, out and back in the fog near our colonies. Brussels – Pike>Worker.

[1] 1511 – Nothing from Lizzy. Moving units, nothing really. I’m starting to like the idea of heading towards that double wheat/cow/horse/tobacco site. That would make a nice capital. We get 44g on the maps. Nice little tile swapping in core.

IT – It’s a French LB I saw. Antwerp-Colonist>Colonist, Brussels-Worker>Musket??, New Amsterdam-trapper camp> Colonist in 10.

[2] 1512 – I haggle with Lizzy and get this. We get peace, 30g,14gpt and WM! 15gpt ws almost. Nice job on the early war aggie. She had no tech. 19g on maps. Naval ordanance is know by Henry. Everything is a no-go. Not much cash about anyhow. Wait for a 2-3fer and then lower the sliders. Wonder what the French LB is doing looking at our NAmsterdam? Uncover some more map with explorer. Get another 11g. We have 725g @ +7gpt. I had read in other threads about selling the courthouse in the capital. I did it but I’m leary of selling the others.

IT – TROUBLE! The French declare with an MDI attacking from the sea on Antwerp. We win going red. Another MDI is SW of Brussels. The LB will attack New Amsterdam next turn.

[3] 1513 - We have 3 pikes to defend NAmster. Get 15g on maps. Also a worker from the iro’s for WM and currency. The other natives already have currency and are working on construction. I’m chopping some forests now. They only give 1 food and Nav School is due next turn.We kill the Brussels invader with an MDI and cover with a Pike. I think it is time to rush buy a little. A musket for 208g in Brussels. A longbow in New Amsterdam for 152g. Hope it’s not weed. I think we’re all in new waters here. I’d like to take out Quebec. I also swap Antwerp colonist for 132g rushed MDI.

IT – We win in New Amsterdam against the LB. Nav school comes in and I set it on Magellans tempory. Antwerp-MDI>Colonist, Brussels-Musket>Musket. New Amster-LB>Colonist.

[4] 1514 – I swap Amsterdam to uni for a future bank or shields ready in case the French pursue this war. Get 24g on maps and find out no one is interested in helping us. Well, Spain wants 21gpt and 250g. I’ll keep it in mind. I drop off the colonist and send the LB and a pike to look at Quebec. It has a 3hp pike and just outside of town is another 3 hp pike with a settler(slaves). I build an embassy with the IRO’s for 27g. They have 2 spears and a just created settler in town. If they had more troops I might sic Hiawatha on Francis to raise Quebec.

IT – the French settler runs east away from town.

[5] 1515- LB and pike looking into Quebec with MDI trailing. Lots of ground uncovered. 25g from Maps and Hiawatha figured out map making.

IT – Nada from the French

[6] 1516 – We kill the first pike with LB and theres another that the MDI is going for next turn. I screw up with our scout in the andes and miscount steps. He’s staring at a 2-barb camp. Oops! Monty and Hiawatha both know CoL and MM nor leaving Inca in the dust. They are all broke. Francis still not talking. Spain has naval ordinance. Make 17 or sog on maps.

IT – We lose the Andes explorer. Antwerp-Colonist> Musket.

[7] 1517 – Load colonist into ship. Lose MDI to superpike. Send LB and pike to fortify on mountain. Francis had just said he didn’t want to talk. Explorer in Africa almost meets the same demise as his brethen. Only 8g on maps. Spain has banking.

IT – France attacks! A pike on Antwerp iron hill goes down but I had two pikes there.

[8] 1518 – I’ve loaded a musket with the colonist too and they are on they’re way the route the caravel took in, around the top of England.Francis is still not at the table!? African explorer ID’s a second camp. I think I get between the 2 next turn. 8g on maps. Put another pike into place on iron. Forests get musket next turn. MM to not waste a shield.

IT – Portugal and Spain sign peace. Henry comes offering his WM for 9g. :lol: Brussels-Musket>Uni for bank?

[9] 1519 – Looks like the Iros are going to beat us to those prime spots. They’ve settled one and have a settler near the other. England has Prostestantism. 7g on maps.

IT – We win against a LB on iron hill this time. Jamestown-Worker> Worker. Going to road some iron. Iro settle the other spot.

[10] Francis is still tight lipped. Man! Some exploring and 7g. Will comment tomorrow. It’s late.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RBC14B-1520.jpg

You defended our cities well barbslinger :)

ROSTER:
-Ridgelake--->up
-Aggie------->on deck
-Yom
-barbslinger

I got it. Probably will be Saturday before I get a chance to play. Any comments would be welcome before then.

Ridge

I would settle our western colonist 2 W, 2SW. SE of the furs, on a river, close to gold. Our 2nd colonist, in New Amsterdam, could go 4 tiles NW of that spot, on a hill with furs and gold in expanded borders. Trouble is: do we have enough turns to expand those borders?

The third colonist -in Antwerp- might go to Brazil, where we see gems and gold. Oh, I see that we have a 4th colonist on a ship on the Atlantic. It could also go to West America, but the good spot are few and far between there. Maybe Death Valley (gold/silver)?. I hope that we can get a good deal from France for peace. We really need a few factories going. But that means learning four techs (up to mining).

RBC14B – Dutch Dynasty

1520AD (0) Diplo check reveals that we are at war with the French and they will not talk. We are down banking, and naval ordinance to the Europeans, along with Protestant Gov to the English. We have metal due in 4. Hopefully, we will hit it first and be able to broker back to the forefront.

I stop the workers from chopping forest in our core. We need shields more than food.

A colonist, worker, and pike are loaded into a boat in Antwerp and sent west.

The market in New Amsterdam is swapped to a courthouse. I found courthouses to be hugely helpful in my trial game.

IT We lose a pike on iron hill to a French LB.

1521 (1) Our LB kills a pike in Quebec, but is redlined. Another pike shows.

Francis will talk but won’t pay for peace. Map sales net about 50 gold.

IT We lose 2 fortified pike on good defensive ground to French LBs.

English start Luther’s 95 Thesis

1523 (3) kill 2 french LBs.

IT England completes Magellans.

Map sales for about 30 gold

IT We lose another pike fortified on a hill to a French LB.

MDI kills a musketeer.
MDI kills LB
LB kills LB

Now for our trades with our Monopoly Metallurgy:

England won’t part with Protestant, even with 101gpt and about 500 gold.
Spain has the best offer for it with Banking, Naval Ordnance, 100 gold, and 8 gpt.
England pays WM, 53gpt, and 18 gold.

Take peace with France getting a worker and 1 gold for 2 gpt and WM. Sell him Metal for 28gpt, WM and 96 gold (all he had).

Henry cant offer squat for the tech.

Since the AI have a headstart on Colonization, I start us on Protestanism. It won’t be saleable or buyable. Now seems a good time to research it. Due in 15.

Rush a trapper camp in Jamestown.

1525(5) Found Wiltwyck claiming 2 golds and a fur NW of Cattaragus. Found Fort Orange NW of Jamestown near furs.

Sell Maps

1526 (6) Found Fort Nassau on the Hudson Bay. Rush courthouses in Jamestown, Wiltyck, and Fort Orange.

1527 (7) Sell Metal to Henry for 33gpt, 10 gold and WM.

1528 (8)

1529 (9) England shows up with Colonization.

1530 (10) Piracy and Professional Armies show up with turn. Everyone has colonization. I will leave the trades to Aggie. We should be able to twofer colonization from the French. Be advised that Prof Armies will prohibit us from making 30 shield pikes. We need units to take treasure back to the capitol. Pikes make excellent treasure-bearers.

I left movement on an explorer. There is a Spanish settler pair west of it that is about to claim furs. I have another settler pair in a race with the Iroquois. I would use the explorers to block that pair. I was heading for the gold north of Wiltwyck.

We have a couple more colonist pairs in America. I would be tempted to backfill supporting towns so that we can move treasure more easily from the gold to the seas.

Ridge


The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RBC14B-1530AD.SAV)

- Protestantism is not tradable. I spent a lot of Gold to steal it, and couldn't trade it to someone else :mad: . And the corruption was virtually the same, btw. But the increased Workers speed is nice.


Protestantism can be traded, but only among the Dutch, English and French. The Spanish and Portuguese, as well as the Native American Civs, do not have the Protestant trait-thingy checked, so the AI as them won't trade for it. (Similar to Norse/Byzantine/Arab/Catholic in the Middle Ages scenario.)

The French are not Protestant, they are - French :) .
That said, you can trade it between 2 Civs, but if you happen to play one of those and steal it for 861gp from the other, hoping to trade it @2nd for several techs, well.... :wallbash:

But technically, you're right, it IS tradable; it is a 'protestant flavor' tech, so you can sell it to any Civ with that flavor, and buy it from any Civ. However, if your Civ also is protestant, you won't be able to afford it.

ROSTER:
-Ridgelake
-Aggie------->up
-Yom--------> on deck
-barbslinger

If will probably not be able to play soon (within two day). I am in the middle of AG3. Yom, could you take it?

Really imfornative turns. Nice monopoly trading. We're not down too bad. Lose of pikes hurt a bit but we have peace for a while. I have a feeling we're going to need lots of defense at home. On the forest chops. I was thinking 2 food would be better because 2 food will get us more colonists and workers. Plus hoping for a bg. Hard call to make. 10 shields put me over the top on the call and I felt with nothing much better to do it was worth it. We can replant, can't we?

OK. I can play tomorrow.

IHT: I buy Prof. Armies from the most pathetic European civ. England gets 80 gpt for it. I sell it with 120 for Colonization to the French.
We have a UU and the option to build a Colonial Capital. I switch New Amsterdam to that.

Turn 1 (1531 AD) Not sure what exactly to do with the colonists, but I will try to grab one nice resource spot and for the rest build cities to enlarge our colony in the US.

Turn 2 (1532 AD) Selling WM around, workers start roading towards the west.

IT: Antwerp: colonist->colonist, Brussels: swiss merc->swiss merc.

Turn 3 (1533 AD) Willemstad founded NE of New Amsterdam. Starts with worker.

Turn 4 (1534 AD) Stellenbosch founded north of Wiltwyck. Next to gold.

Turn 5 (1535 AD) :sleep:

IT: Amsterdam: Swiss Merc-SM, Antwerp: colonist->SM. Trapper camp in New amsterdam produced a treasure :) This reminds me that we have to build more units to pick them up.

Turn 6 (1536 AD) I wake up and FINALLY move our longbow to Amsterdam. We returned resources to the capital. The longbow and a coloinst now go west.

IT: Jamestown produced a treasure. Wiltwyck: walls->temple.

Turn 7 (1537 AD) :sleep:

IT: Protestantism comes in. I'm not going to revolt. I think we need to discuss it first. Mining is next, in 11 turns.

Turn 8 (1538 AD) Goede Hoop founded east of Stellenbosch. Close to furs. Fort Orange switched to trapper camp now furs are connected.

IT: Fort Orange: trapper camp->temple. New Amsterdam riots.

Turn 9 (1539 AD) MDI brings back treasure to Amsterdam.

Turn 10 (1540 AD) A swiss merc picks up a treasure and is now in New Amsterdam. We should hook up more gold and furs and build those factories, camps etc. We now already have three places that will net us treasures. But more will follow soon. We are leading the VP race now! 3810 VP for us, 2625 for England.

England just got mining. Crucial for us, because of our gold. But we have negative income due to the deals in my first turn. AFAIK we haven't had or GA yet? That should achieved with the Swiss Mercs?

ROSTER:
-Ridgelake
-Aggie (on holiday from May 27th to June 5th)
-Yom--------> up
-barbslinger--> on deck

I will be gone in two days. This game will probably be over when I'm back. Could someone else take over the administration? :)

Ridgelake's comment:

"Nice turn getting the gold and filling in more spots. It might make sense to see if mining and piracy can be twofered. Not that we need piracy.

I would like to see us go for Prot gov. It is akin to republic compared to our monarchy-like Cath gov now. We obviously will need gold to last for the anarchy period. Expect a 6-7 turn anarchy. What is our gold balance now?

As for timing our GA, it would ideally wait for us to get to Prot Gov as well as get our FP built. The FP takes 150 shields, so it will take a bit.

Without seeing the map, I would be tempted to keep filling in our lands and then try to grab the gold/silver in southern California. I also found that more than one city can share the same resource. So a town 3 spaces south of Wyltych can also generate gold.

Incidently, cities spaced 3 tiles away make transfering treasure much easier. Units can move back and forth with the treasure and still MP.

As it turns out, I am going to be out of town for a few days as well. I leave Wed night and get back late Saturday. I could conceivably play Sunday or Monday."

The cities in the USA and Canada. I would settle the colonist where it is now (NE of furs):

More thoughts of Ridgelake:

"I agree that the colonist should be founded right where he is.

Additional colonists probably should go to California to get more treasure. Once those spots are claimed, if anything is still available in NE Canada near our FP, those spots would be good to grab.

Once the road connects the Hudson Bay city to the rest, rush a harbor in the Hudson Bay city so we can get luxuries to our colonies. That will particularly help our FP city stay fully-productive.

When making the calculation of how much gold is needed for anarchy, remember that we get 200 gold from delivering treasure home."

I'll have to play this tomorrow. I want to apologize for the delay. A friend from San Jose came down with Laker tix Tuesday and it was a 2 day extravaganza. We are also putting together a party for my son for getting out of Marine bootcamp. I'm back on track and will be completing all my SG's tonight and Sat morniing. If anyone wants to swap that would be a nice option too. I'm up in about 5 different SG's.

I played a DG games with the Dutch yesterday; absolutely boring, I won with ~60k of treasures for milking, with Portugal @25k, and, the only surprising thing, the Iroquese @17k :lol: . And I never ever fought anyone except the 2 Barbs on Cuba, I did not open the City screens after the initial turns and had no GA. So in fact, you should have absolutely no problem to in this.
But I found several pretty surprising (and partially annoying, being mentioned nowhere) points:
- Protestantism is not tradable. I spent a lot of Gold to steal it, and couldn't trade it to someone else :mad: . And the corruption was virtually the same, btw. But the increased Workers speed is nice.
- Dutch have a severe disadvantage in not being able to build cheap Pikes later.
- Magellan's in Antwerp is doable and absolutely worth it - it acts as an Offshore Platform as well!
- The AI research path is absolutely unpredictable. They did research everyting including the 2nd tiers before Banking...
- Check the frequence of the shipment productions. They vary extremely - a single Gold Mine easily spawns as many treasures as 5 Furs Camps.
You start with a GA as Portugal.

@Gogf: I think he means he never initiated a GA through a UU winning the entire game.

Yom, are you grabbing this? I'm backed up right now.

I am back in town now. I can play, but either Yom or Barb should go first. Since we haven't heard anything from Yom in awhile, that should probably make you up, Barb.

I can't grab it as I still haven't gotten my Conquests CD to work :mad:. I got it to work briefly by washing it, but it stopped working when I tried to exit and re-start up C3C. I think I'm just gonna order a new CD from Amazon.

I'll try to get it in tonight. I have SGOTM and Isabella redemtion left. But! I am finally free to play, right after I take the wife to Chili's for dinner and 2-3 beers now that the family has finally cleared out.

RBC14B – 1540AD

Preturn – I’m going to plant the colonist where he stands as prescribed per prior posts. I’m getting worried the Indians may be getting restless. Hopefully it won’t happen until the available land is filled up, but hey I’m the dutch in a foreign land with 3 attack Iro’s looking at me. Do we want our capital there then, in New Amsterdam? I would think closer to the coast. Hopefully, a leader will come out of this and I’m thinking more troops to the front. MM the SM in Brussels to 2 since the Amsterdam SM will waste a bunch. He should still get it in 5 unless I f’up I also tried to bring the smiley faced crew to help out. Smilies are in, much better. It looks we we will never have enough tiles due to London. So max MM until the mighty Dutch flex there American muscles is required. I’m giving Amsterdam a tast of 6 spt for one trn and the colonist will pick up the required extra shield next turn.

IT – Massive uprising near FT. Nassau and those damn French are trying to cross again. England completes Luther’s 99, theses. Not quite a thesis, but close, they’re getting smarter. Inca and Aztecs are building Kukulcan. They’re trying to get smart.

[1] 1541 – Amsterdam is put on a staight no shield loss diet towards the Smerc. Brusselss and the same. Antwerp will lose 1 next turn. We build Paarl after a couple city name skips. It seems this is where are FP should go. Or somewhere around here. Pardon the bad English. WM is worth squat nowadays. 2g outta 7 tries. We offload a colonist, MedInf and a Swmerc. The red Smerc with treasure goes to the mountain port to load next turn. Explorers move about hoping the Iros are still friendly. I get another 2g on WM pickups. I would like the keep the Iros happy. Until our European wroth comes to fruition.

IT – Huge battle in the far west with the Indians and the barbs. Indians lost,but it was 7 consecutive. Antwerp-Colonist> Colonist. Are we still making these? Advice here. I still see land though. Brussels- Smerc> MDI, in case france goes crazy again. Or England.

[2] 1542 – Make trades because we are behind. Not a good 2-fer but we are in the next age. To henry: 16 gpt and 420g for mining. To Spain: Mining and 240g for piracy. I went Counter reformation and seet a prebuild for Jesuit college, which matches up with our 31 turn research time. It’s 200 shields in Antwerp making 7. Move the new colonist out on the carrack I had paused. Other boat that had just upset England upgrades to carrack to bypass her. Frikkin France is blocking our road for the newly landed merc, MDI and colonist. I told him to leave. We only move 1 tile. We will need a good war against the Aztecs vs. us and the Iro’s. I block an Aztec settler pair across 3 tiles with explorers. There is no cash in world maps until I defog. I get 0g after that. :lol We have 4 colonists in route. I think it is time to back those girls up. I remember a girl in The outlaw Josie Wales from Kansas and they nearly did not have enough backup. I don’t know if I’m buying the Jamestown colonial cap prebuild. I’m thinking war and GL builds it where required. Having the Iro on our side would help against the Aztecs. It only has 30 shields built up and will have around 54 when I’m done so a granary may help then. I don’t know, I’d like a rax now. I’ll wait and see how it plays ot because I’m messing with the Aztecs. I’m setting Brussels to a 14-13-13 diet for MDI’s. I’m really upset with this scenarios sendup of our homelands. We are really scrunched. No land for pop and culture from London and Paris kicking or butt to get more tiles. WESTWARD HO… with plenty of missionaries. They enslave too. Quite the catholic monarchy. No offense intended. This is the game.

IT – WOW! Inca demand engineering. Refusal and a back down. A pirate hits our treasure ship. 1hp survival! WHEW! …….. English are building Shakes. No cancel the tresure ship. It was a colonist and a worker.


[3] 1543 – Treasure ship is one sep from home. Caravel in the western sea is headed back Magellans route around S. America for an upgrade.

IT – Spanish start Shakes. J-town-Wkr>Wkr, Willemstad-Wkr>Wkr.

[4] 1544 – Colonist make their moves to get land with escorts. Treasure makes it way to Antwerp. I think it has to make it to the capital to be dropped off though. I’ll see next turn. MM continues. I block the Aztecs settler taking a musket out of town.

IT – We accept Frances 20 turn peace. Whew! Stellenbach-Wkr>Wkr. Mauch Chunk expands. Antwerp – Smerc> Cannon.

[5] 1545 – Treasure is in. 5485 to 3490 for England. Not bad. Continue the Aztec blockade while getting the gun back to town. Colonists on the move with escort. 1 turn of serios waste in Brussels on my part. 1 shield left. It will have to starve and give it’s shields to other projects this turn.

IT – Brussels-MDI>Musket,

[6] 3 colonists ready to plop next turn with one maybe upsetting the French. Goo thing we have peace for a few turns. England is tearing away with Free Artistry, Forts and shipbuilding. Spain with FA and forts and henry and Portugal with forts. Or Counter reformation is now 76 turns with a single science and LOSING 13gpt.

IT – J-town-Wkr>Rax

[7] 1547 – For some reason after establishing 3 towns we are at –35gpt. WTF! I just figured it out. A deal ended where we were getting cash and not no mo’. We can get 40g out of the iros and that’s about it. Not much. We have 333g and 545 to sustain so a deal with the redskins is coming.

IT – We get atreasure from the trapper camp. Goede Lop-Wkr>T Camp. English are building Smiths. Our caravel doing a reverse Magellan gets attacked twice going vet.

[8] 1548 - LB grabs the treasure and will board boat next turn. Drop off another MDI in the new country. Just looked at our power and it isn’t too bad.

IT – Another treasure pops and the Portugese are now building Shakes. Our treasure ship is next to a 2 hp pirate.

[9] 1548 – Throw more Aztec block. Will have to wait on treasure move. Wait a minute. An MDI grabs it due to shield cost of 40 vs. Smerc cost of 50.

IT – We beat the pirate. There is a large group of Swiss barbarians moving out towards Ft. Hendrick. 8 pikes(1.3.1) and and archer (2.1.1)

[10] We now have 2 treasure ships in route home.

Worried about this swiss barb attack. Looks like pillaging afoot. They may go after undefended Oranjastad. We’ll see. Sorry about the deals. We need cash soon though. The Indians have 78g waiting to deal with Hiawatha having 65 of it.

Our current core. Wondering about the current Colonial capital build.

Save is here. Treasure come forth!

Got it. Will try to play today

1550 (0) We are at peace with everyone. We now make 44gpt and have 233 gold in the bank. We have 31 gpt going to other civs. Looks like a good time for a Revolution to Protestantism.

We have a prebuild going. But we don’t really need anything built. I swap it off to a bank. We will need gold.

We have a lot of workers mining things, but not all of our treasures hooked up. We need to have them all roaded for us to make camps and mines. I will let the units finish their work and then move towards getting everything roaded.

Pull the string on the Gov change. 6 turns of anarchy. We are at –21 gpt after MMing.

1551AD (1) Return a treasure.

IT The Aztecs finish the Temple of the Moon

1552 (2) Ditto

1553 (3)

IT A SwissMerc defeats 8 attacking conscript pikes and promotes to elite. A 3 def galley loses 4 straight to a 1 attack conscript caravel

1554 (4)

IT Spain completes Shakespeare.

1555

IT We enter Protestant Monarchy. Portugese, French, English start Smiths

1556 (6) Re-MM. We are at 81 gpt.

Should have done this before the Anarchy, but rush a harbor in Fort Nassau so that our colonies can have access to luxes.

I buy Counter Reformation from Spain for 19gpt. This will allow for 30 shield 3/1/2 w/ enslave Missionaries. These guys were made to carry treasure!

Trapper Camp rushed in Goede Hoop.

1557 (7) Found Fort Zeelandia west of Wiltwych to run more gold and furs. Rush a gold mine in Stellenbosch. Rush a temple in Willemstad

1558 (8) Sell furs to England and Spain.

Rush temple in Oranjestad

IT Henry demans 27 gold. Fine

England starts Newton’s

1559 (9)

1560 (10) Rush gold mines in Wiltwych and Fort Zeelander.

Keep rushing the courthouses. They really pay off in this scenario. Keep spamming units, particularly missionaries. We need a bunch to carry loot. I am about to found another town west of Stellenbach on the spot where the colonist is. It will also produce gold.

Most of the roading to connect towns is done.

Don’t worry about science. We have all of the tech that we need. The only thing that will help a bit is ship building. But it isn’t worth the price that it will take to get it.

I am not thrilled with the location of the Colonial Capitol. But an early not-great FP is better than a late great one. Particularly with as short of a scenario this is.

Once we build up a bit more, we can go to war with the Iroquois. Their lands will fit nicely with ours.

Have fun!

Ridge

ROSTER:
-Ridgelake----->Just Played
-Aggie (on holiday from May 27th to June 5th)------> up
-Yom--------> up
-barbslinger--> in the hole

Either Aggie or Yom should take this next. Yom, if you can get civ working again, please hop in. Otherwise, we should probably wait for Aggie to get back.

Just when I thought I had gotten conquests working again, it turns its back on me! I'm really sorry for this guys, but I've got to drop out of this and all other SGs until I order a new conquests cd.

What do you think Ridgelake. Should we play another round or wait on Aggie?

I will be back on Sunday nightCET, but only able to play on Monday afternoon CET...

Ridgelake, I not going to be able to play until Sunday afternoon. My boss gave my room at the Hyatt on Huntington beach and my wife and I are leaving in the AM. We will be there all day Saturday with her in the Spa and I'll hit the beach with a cold one. Dinner, drinks and dancing at night.
If you could swap with me it would help move the game along.

Well, since I played the last 10 turns, I'll wait until either you or Aggie plays.

Hope that you and the wifie are having a great time. :) I cant tell you how jealous I am of you right now.

Enjoy!

I'm back home, but need to recover from my holiday :p I probably play tomorrow.

I have had a lot of things to do, so I will not be able to play today. Tomorrow should be fine though.

IHT: I hit <end turn> after familiarizing myself with the game again...

IT: Stellenbosch: gold mine->trapper camp, Goede Hoop: courthouse->temple, Fort Zeelandia: Gold Mine->Trapper Camp.

Turn 1 (1561 AD) Kralendijk founded on the spot. Starts with courthouse. Trapper camp rushed in Witwyck.

IT: Witwyck: trapper camp->missionary.

Turn 2 (1562 AD) Trapper Camp rushed in Fort Zeelandia, Courthouse rushed in Stellenbosch.

IT: Brussels, Jamnestown: missionary->missionary. Stellenbosch: courthouse->missionary, Paarl: worker->barracks, Foret Zeelandia: Trapper Camp->Courthouse. The Inca finish the Temple of the Sun. Fort Orange gets treasure.

Turn 3 (1563 AD) Missionary gets treasure in Jamestown and goes towards Amsterdam.
Courthouse rushed in Fort Nassau.

IT: Treasures in Fort Zeelandia and Stellenbosch. Missionaries are built in three cities.

Turn 4 (1564 AD) A couple of courthouses are rushed. We return two treasures to Amsterdam.

IT: A number of courthouses are finished. Now it's missionaries all the way. Even regular ones, who are perfectly capable to move fast and grab treasures.

Turn 5 (1565 AD) Missionaries rushed...

IT: France finishes Smith. We trained a few missionaries.

Turn 6 (1566 AD) Missionary returns treasure to Amsterdam. Temple in Port Zeelandia rushed to grab more furs. Also a few missionaries rushed.

IT: New treasures in Fort Zeelandia, Witwyck and Stellenbosch.

Turn 7 (1567 AD) A new treasure is returned. 5 missionaries rushed.

Turn 8 (1568 AD) This would be a good year to start the Golden Age of the Dutch. The year in which we declared war on the Spanish and started our 80 year struggle for freedom. But we are doing fine as it is. Twice the VP's of the nr 2 and a lot of treasures being produced.

IT: Another treasure in Goede Hoop.

Turn 9 (1569 AD) Finally all treasures are grabbed by our units. Within 6 to 8 turns we will get a big boost in VP's.

IT: Three new treasures in Fort Zeelandia, Stellenbosch and Witwyck :)

Turn 10 (1570 AD) Two new treasures are brought to Amsterdam.

I focussed on rushing courthouses, Trapper Camps, Gold Mines and Missionaries. I figure that the way to win is now relatively straight forward. sending the missionaries home with treasures.

We have a treasure in Fort Zeelandia and 8 missionaries with treasures heading for Amsterdam. One of them is in a boat. The rest somewhere in America.
We have 13675 VP's. Portugal is 2nd with 5495 VP's. Cuzco's culture is 1750. The Aztecs are on 4642.

ROSTER:
-Ridgelake----> on deck
-Aggie ------> just played
-Yom--------> dropped out
-barbslinger--> up

Well 24 more treasures. they are 1000VP each right? If that is case this was way too easy. I smell a war forthcoming if we pull too far ahead. I looked at the save and I sure would feel better if we had more defense at home. Do we lose the VP's if Amsterdam gets sacked? I'll play tomorrow after SGOTM.

It is that easy ;) .
And no, the AI won't react in any way to your VP score. Losing your European cities will help you immensly btw :crazyeye: , that's why it is banned to do that at will (oh, and no way to loose VPs).

It is that easy ;) .
And no, the AI won't react in any way to your VP score. Losing your European cities will help you immensly btw :crazyeye: , that's why it is banned to do that at will (oh, and no way to loose VPs). Thanks Doc! Well then, I guess we could just "hope" our token defense of 2 mercs and a musket holds up. I noticed that the colonial capital is nearly complete. Can treasure be delivered there to avoid the long trip home. Probably not. Well, I'll just try to stay out of war and keep the treasure convoy rolling.

RBC14B – 1570AD

Preturn – Looks like I am just going to be escorting convoys of treasure laden missionaries for 10 turns. We have one treasure in Ft. Zeelander that needs retrieving and others to deliver. Rush a couple missionaries and change the home builds to muskets. Try to wrangle Sci Meth to trade to Henry for something but nothing doing. We’re not even researching. Shipbuilding would be nice. I put a lone scientist on it. Probably folly. Get an ROP and 46g from Hiawatha for Siegecraft. I’d like to hook up with him and get some horses.

IT – 2 more treasures pop and England completes Newtons.

[1] 1571 – Load a boat with 4 treasures and send it home. 4 more are coming. 4 bible-thumping treasure hounds are returning to the land of opportunity.

IT – New Amsterdam produces a treasure.

[2] 1572 – Have around 6 more treasures ready to get off the continent. Col Capital is due next turn. We’re at+121gpt. Trades are available but at really high prices. Do we even need to make another trade?

IT – I think 4 more treasures popped and we make 162gpt now.

[3] 1573 – Treasure dropoff puts us at 17675 to Spains 9260. Looks like we get cash for the drop offs too. Maybe it is time for a deal. From England SciMeth for 62gpt and 1100g. To Henry 20gpt + 100g for ship building. That is expensive and I hope not :smoke: … We can upgrade ships now. It looks like a runaway too, so if it is weed, hopefully it is still in the bag. Pick up more treasures from various camps.

IT – 1 treasure pops.

[4] 1574 – Bringing 4 more back with 3 on the ship.

IT – 2 muskets finish and set to missionary and cannon.

[5] 1575 – Drop off 4 more treasures and the lead is now 22275 to 9260. Another full load is returning and 4 more in transite to a ship. Another is being picked up next turn. The SW area seems to get treasure every other turn. Antwerp swaps to man ‘o war for protection against pirates.

IT – Inca demand education. I say no and he backs down. Portugal declares on Spain. 2 treasures pop.

[6] 1576 – 3 treasures waiting to be picked up and boat will sail next turn with a full load.

IT – Things are popping.

[7] 1577 – 8 treasures on the sea lanes to put us at 30000. More are heading towards boats.

IT – No treasure this time around.

[8] 1578 - We drop off 4 more and zoom to 26275 with Spain adding 1 to go over 10K.

IT – More missionaries complete and I think we have too many now.

[9] 1579 – Drop off 4 more to go over 30K. We also have enough treasure picked up for the win. Just have to deliver now.

IT – A Spanish missionary has ran into our turf NE of Zeelander.

[10] 1580 - I rush the continent with barracks and markets I had going spending our cash down to 1997g.

I was going to pass it but it is only 3-4 turns from being over. Hope you guys don’t mind that I finish it. The game winners are jumping on the boat next turn. Also I really want to see what the Spanish are up to.

IT - He ran off to his mountain perch again. Lots of builds complete including 2 man ‘o wars and raxs and Mercs.

[11] 1581 – A French worker is blocking the road so I will have to load next turn. War ship covers incoming treasure.

IT – Inca and Spain sign against Portugal. Workers move out of the way.

[12] 1582 – Final load is 2 turns away. Spain is at 14850 now. We should end up with 38K+

IT – I think this is over very soon.

[13] 1583 – Last treasure ship should dock next turn. Drop 4 more treasures off for 34275. Spain is at 14925.

IT – Spain wants an alliance against Portugal. Ha-HA!

[14] 1584 – Save game and drop treasure off. We’re at 38275 to Spains 15075. Guess I need an IT to finish.

IT – Win in 14hours, 56 minutes. Spain at 15105. No top cities. Score is 68894.

I can post some screenies tomorrow but it is 5am.

Easy game guys. I’m pretty surprised at the ease.

I am amazed! I've seen both sides of this scenario now and I must say that I won't play it again. Too easy, not like the middle ages or Fall of Rome.

But still: good job people [party]

After winning with Spain on Deity with a Score of 220 000 (returned 73 treasures in the last turn :rolleyes: ) I can only agree with Aggie.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=88192 post #6 :D

However, I still think this is a nice little Conquest for Newbies.

There are some other challenging aspects to this game. Trying to win a culture victory is very fun/challenging for the Europeans. (Shameless plug.) Another Variant I have used is winning by VP, without returning treasure. This involves copious amounts of warring, which is also very fun, and raises the difficulty level as the opponents capitol is sure to head to the New World. Before you wrtie off this conquest as a newbie one, try some other variants. Good job on finishing this one out by the way. Also for more fun, play this on MAX aggression.