SGOTM2 Game Thread

Welcome to your game thread for SGOTM2-Germany

Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2-start-position.jpg

Each team has their own save file. Please download and play from the correct save. If you use the wrong save the server will not accept your submission. Also, please make sure that the software version is correct. PM me immediately if it is not.

You can download your save file >>HERE<<. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php)

The Roster
Alamo
bradleyfeanor
Cuivienen
SesnOfWther
shoe35

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/alamos_alamo.png

Team Alamo is online - Deutschland uber alles!

Preliminaries

We are playing [ptw]1.27f.

Game Parameters
Civ: Germans
Difficulty: Monarch
Map size: Standard
Map shape: Continents.3
Barbarians: Raging Horde
Climate: Normal
Temperature: Temperate
Age: 4 Billion Years
Game: All victories; Restarting players off
Opponents: 6 Rivals

Rules of Engagement are here.

Variant: Achieve a diplomatic victory without building the UN wonder.

I have heard from SesnOfWthr and bradleyfeanor. Players cuivienen and shoe35 please post here.

Initial Strategy

The first round is 20 turns to 3000BC.

At the current spot we would get 4 mountains in the capital city radius. The idea of exploring S before settling has been seconded. Moving the worker S would show if there are more forest or grasslands available.

Proposed build order: warrior, warrior, worker, granary.

Those 2 warriors can go on walkabout. However, raging barbarians will require more warriors when they start popping. The ransom should pay for their upkeep.

Who wants to go first?

I'm still here, and I still don't worry myself with the order. Although, like most people, I would usually prefer to go first.

Question though - you want to build a worker as the third unit? Don't you think that's a bit early? If anything, I might advocate a third warrior for MP, or start the granary after the first two warriors. Is this a trick I haven't seen yet?

I am reasonably sure there is one grassland 1 S, and 1 SE. However this looks like it, except for forest. What is the forest chop time in PTW? I find it mildly annoying that the start position has the minimap cropped out. Makes it harder to guess where we should explore. I will point out that there is some body of water to the NW, unknown size and fresh/salt, of course. Correction: Is some of that land near the settler jungle? I can't tell with those graphics, as I'm so used to the ones I use.

BTW - I have never used PTW, so please tell me if I'm making a Conquests only reference at any point in the game.

Welcome to the thread, SesnOfWthr.

That build order was proposed by bradleyfeanor. Building a worker before starting a granary makes sense if you consider how long a granary will take to build. If there is a reasonable food supply then the population will recover and complete the granary without much delay, especially if the worker can contribute food improvements in the meantime.

We are militaristic and scientific (not industrious), so it will take 10 turns to chop a forest.

The water to the NW is another reason to move S. Making room for a town there would let us start the Colossus.

Yes, the tile SW x 2 is jungle. A slight risk of disease if we move the settler S, and another reason for a second worker.

About the strategy

Since the map is Continents.3 (large landmasses) we do not have to dive for MapMaking (for galleys), but we do need to grab land (bigger is better - power/res/lux). Many settlers will be needed, so building a granary is useful to speed up population growth.

We start with Warrior Code and Bronze Working, so we need to research Pottery 100% first (for the granary). Also, set the research immediately after founding Berlin, or loose a turn of research.

Checking in.

Checking south before settling seems like a good idea. If the land to the south is all/mostly Jungle, settle on the starting location. Otherwise, move one south. (Two northwest leaves the river outside of the city radius.)

On research:

I've found this research path to be the fastest route to the Middle Ages:

Pottery --> Iron Working --> (Alphabet) --> Mathematics --> Currency

We can trade those, especially Iron Working and Currency, for all the rest of the AA techs. We may need a quick run to Literature or The Republic to finish off the AA, but that's only if we're unlucky. Alphabet may or may not need to be self-researched, depending on who we start near.

... I find it mildly annoying that the start position has the minimap cropped out.

It's interesting that you are the only person to mention this. In every SG I run I always show the minimap. I havent' in this one for a reason... Did you play GOTM8?

It's interesting that you are the only person to mention this. In every SG I run I always show the minimap. I havent' in this one for a reason... Did you play GOTM8?

To be entirely honest, I have never played ANY GOTM. However, this one does seem familiar. Is it included in one of Bamspeedy's strat articles or something?

Re: research. Personally I have found alphabet and writing to be two of the most valuable techs in the AA. Does philo give the free tech in PTW?

Welcome, Cuivienen!

First move of worker to S is seems agreed. I assume you have no preference on going first.

That's an interesting research proposal. I tend to go for wheel before iron to reveal the horses sooner. That's more out of habit than necessity, though.

Of course the research choices will change if we can trade. That is why early explorers are important.

Literature and Republic are optional, but useful techs. I prefer to switch governments just once to republic (for a non-religious civ). If we research Republic then we will get the anarchy re-roll option. That is a second chance for lower number of turns in anarchy if you start the revolt from the popup and re-revolt in the F1 screen when advisor says things will be under control in 'about 9 turns'.

Keep in mind that Republic in PTW is not as bad as C3C - no unit support, but only 1gpt/unit. In Republic corruption is not as bad as for Monarchy and each roaded tile worked will produce commerce, which will pay the unit support. War weariness can be a problem, though.

Markets and 2 or 3 luxury items usually keeps order, but a protracted war will be unacceptable (especially if we start it).

One thing I noticed about Monarch level is the AI is more likely to do a pre-emptive attack. Simply building and moving a large number of troops close to a border can provoke an attack, which is better that having to start the war.

Another thing about PTW vs C3C - a Forbidden Palace is very useful. We should consider building/rushing one at some point.

Re: research. Personally I have found alphabet and writing to be two of the most valuable techs in the AA. Does philo give the free tech in PTW?

No free tech from philosophy. Is that a C2 throwback in C3C?

As for the most valuable tech, Polytheism has been most coveted tech in my experience. It is required, it leads to a wonder, but it is out of the loop for all the other useful techs. Most AI's are busy with other techs so you can get it first. When you do get it first the AI's will usually make a generous trade for it.

yes, philo now gives access to the free tech, as in Civ2. It also gives access to a new wonder too, but that's irrelevant.

Does the RCP still work in PTW? If the FP has a real benefit, then I'm guessing the RCP still works too.

Course that also means maps with MM. So we can continually trade our map around, right? Just so long as we've already sold it once.

Bear with me guys, I'm trying to get back into the Vanilla/PTW mentality again. I'll be fine once I get playing again.

PS - Armies are still crappy too, right?

Yes, Ring City Placement (RCP) is good, though not always possible. I think the distance is simply number of squares, though it does not look equal along the diagonals.

Map trades are possible if one civ has MapMaking, and there is a reputation bonus for trading maps every so often.

Armies are somewhat useful. An army of offensive troops can be an effective siege weapon. At least they heal better in 1.27 - healing in parallel instead of one at a time. They can attack multiple times, but they cannot retreat. Of course the Heroic Epic, Military Academy and Pentagon can be useful.

When I get a Great Leader I usually consider rushing a FP or the next big wonder before making the first Army.

I would agree that the MGL's are more useful for rushing, however it's nice to know that the blitz and healing are there for the armies. I've been playing vanilla in one of ny other sg's, and they're damn near useless. Do they get the extra movement too?

Repeatedly selling maps can be a nice way to get a few extra gold every couple of turns, though it can be tedious.

IIRC, in RCP, each diagonal square counts as 1.5 as opposed to the 1 each horiz/vert counts as. Therefore, a city 4 tile NE is the same distance as a city 6 tile S. Of course, geographical limitations certainly come into play.

Obviously, if an Army is able to attack multiple times, it has more than one movement point ;)

RCP works perfectly well in PTW, as I just re-experienced in GOTM 31. I'm pretty sure that all directions are created equal when using RCP, but I haven't played PTW since November, so maybe my RCP in GOTM 31 was messed up.

Looks like you're right about RCP.

Distance = max(x,y) + 0.5*min(x,y), where x and y are the distance in the NW/SE and NE/SW directions, respectively.

I'm not sure about which endpoints to include, though. Is this a radius 5 setup, or did they take a one step too far?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/alamo_rcp3.png

Edit: Looks like I did it backwards - up/down and left/right are 1.5, while diagonals are 1.

Edit II: New image linked. I'm still not happy with it, though. That formula is kind of flaky.

Edit III: New image with optimal paths.

First CVN - the blitz attack is what allows the army to attack multiple times, but the question was: do armies get an extra movement point as in Conquests? ie - an infantry army can move/attack twice per turn.

Alamo - You did do it backwards, but that's my fault. N, S, E, W count as 1.5 while diagonals count as one. It's been a while since I used it. However, using my incorrect amounts, the placements all look to be correct. When done correctly, IIRC, the shape resembles an oval more than a ring.

No, the PTW army moves according to the lowest common denominator among the 3 or 4 units.

The problem with that distance formula is inconsistent results along different paths. The distance makes sense as a minimum along all paths between the start and finish squares (not including the start and finish). I'll redraw the picture to make more sense.

In all honesty Alamo, your pic confused me because I think you just sorta left the warriors where they were.

In this pic, yellow is city center, red is ring of three, and blue is ring of six.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RCP.JPG

Confusion describes my post pretty well! :lol:

So you do include the endpoint. I agree that is the distance travelled by the settler. If you put a city there is the distance between the city and the capital still the same?

If you put a city there is the distance between the city and the capital still the same?

Not sure i understand this part of the question.

For RCP purposes, all of the red dots are considered to be the same "3" from the capitol. Therefore, if you were to use rings of 3 and 6, there would be 8 cities with rank 1 corruption, and 16 cities with rank 2.

Obviously though, for movement purposes, all cities would not be equal, with some being two steps from the capitol, and the rest being three (with the red dots).

Is that what you meant?

Distance in the real world is the space between points, but all we have are points (tiles).

Once you have 2 cities you can look at the empty squares between them, or you can look at how a unit travels from one city to the other. Since not all directions are the same it could make a difference.

Now I see that the distances get rounded down. That removes the difference, in practical terms.

Distance = Min over all paths [ floor(max(x,y) + 0.5*min(x,y)) ]

(x,y) = number of tiles travelled along 'X' (NW/SE) directions , ignoring '+' (NS/EW) directions.

Hi Team,

I just read through the thread. On Armies, no free pillage, no extra move. In general, it is always better to rush a wonder if one is available.

The worker as the third unit was a tough decision, but this is why I suggested it: when you have to chop or work in hills, it will generally improve the development time. It starts to pay off around turn 40. If our explorers happen to spot a food bonus nearby for a second city though, it would be better to spit out one settler before the granary (instead of the worker).

I do have a question. I always play emperor or diety, and this is monarch, so I am thinking lots of explorers might be able to get us goodies from huts. Is that true on monarch level?

Yes, definitely! There should be plenty of goodie huts with raging hoardes, too. It may be worth an extra warrior or two, especially if there are no darn scouts nearby.

I will send shoe35 a PM shortly.

Well, that being the case, having more explorers may outweigh getting the granary at the earliest possible date.

So do you guys want to go for the sponsored variant, or are we just going to kick some AI booty?

Yes, the first player may have a tough call on the granary. If the first two warriors do not encounter an explorer (or one falls to angry barbs from a hut) then more warriors may be needed.

The variant is only worth bragging rights, so I have no strong preference. We could keep our options open until mid-industrial age, with a good rep.

I prefer variants, when possible, in my SG's, as not only does it make it more interesting, it helps me remember more of the specifics of the particular game.

Personally, I only seem to get "goodies" about 20% of the time. However, I haven't played much Monarch lately either, with the exception of SG's. Therefore my perception may be wacky.

BTW - one team has already posted scores. I'm not sure what can be inferred from them, but thought I'd point it out.

Also, was the RCP thing a generalized discussion, or a strat we may want to employ?

In my opinion RCP is vital on PTW. It makes a huge difference in the game. I would say the only question for us will be whether we want RCP 3, 4 or 5, and that should be based on terrain features and the distance of the AI. I would suspect we will want RCP 4 or 5 since this is Monarch level. We will probably have a good bit of breathing room.

Are we playing by the RBCiv rules? Ie, no building our palace in a remote location and all of that?

Here is an example of the RCP variant I prefer to use. (Yes, I know one of the pink dots is misaligned, oops) This gives us rings of 3, 4.5, 6, and 7.5. The two biggest drawbacks to RCP are the rigidity of the placement, and the corruption jump from one ring to the next. The first can't be helped, but this alleviates some of the second. You'll see each ring has four cities until you get to distance 7.5, where you have eight. Of course it could be done with rings of 4, 6, 8, and 10 as well.

I don't know if we're actually using RBC rules, but I would imagine the palace jump technique is not allowed. I would guess that we are using GOTM type of rules, but now I'm not sure ......

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RCP2.JPG

Thats kind of interesting. I personally like to have 6 cities at rank 1 rather than 4 at rank 1 and 4 at rank 5. But if the terrain lays out the right way (extrmely good terrain in outer radius of your second ring), this could be a very powerful layout.

We rented the Roy Jones fight tonight, so I will check in with you guys in the morning. If someone takes the first turn, good luck! If not, I will be happy to take them tomorrow if no one else wants them.

In any case, if anyone has a question in the middle of your turns, don't hesitate to stop and ask questions!

Later,

Brad

SesnOfWthr You can go ahead and start us off if you're still awake. You get 20 turns to 3000BC. I haven't heard from shoe35 yet, but half the weekend is over. Feel free to stop at any time and post if you want some feedback.

The SGOTM ettiquette rules are in the Rules - Post a "got it" within 24hrs and post a new save within 72hrs. We will use the times in this thread as official time.

I assume we are using GOTM rules - palace jump, RCP, anarchy re-roll allowed, worker pop-rushing and out-of-bounds palace not allowed. I'll read through the rules thread to be sure.

Goodie hut reward ratio is small, but every hut popped is one less for the others.

Looks good, I'll dive in right now. :)

GOT IT

Well, here’s to swimming with bow-legged women. :beer:

4000 bc (0) – As discussed, I move the worker south. I see a lot of jungle suddenly. I sit and stare at the screen for a bit before I decide we’re good where we are. Suddenly very glad I didn’t move, I see a wheat 2 tiles NW, and a game 1 E, 1SE. :D Start warrior in 5, sci at 100% gets us pottery in 14.

3950 bc (1) – Send settler towards eastern BG.

3900 bc (2) – Zzzzz

3850 bc (3) – start mine.

3800 bc (4) – Zzzzz

3750 bc (5) – warrior -> warrior. Send him west.

3700 bc (6) – See some plains to the west.

3650 bc (7) – Zzzzz

3600 bc (8) – Zzzzz

3550 bc (9) – Finish mine, start road.

3500 bc (10) – warrior -> worker. Send this one east.

3450 bc (11) – Lot of jungle south, and mountains west. We have spices just outside our southern borders.

3400 bc (12) – worker - > barracks (granary). Find a small lake due west.

3350 bc (13) – We get pottery, start on IW in 32 at 100%. I figure at least it’s a second tier tech.

3300 bc (14) – Have still seen no huts or explorers.

3250 bc (15) – Zzzzz

3200 bc (16) – I might see the eastern coast ….

3150 bc (17) – we did indeed find the coast, about 8 tiles east.

3100 bc (18) – Zzzzz

3050 bc (19) – Zzzzz

3000 bc (20) – More of the same …

Quick recap: Granary in 7. We have Pottery, 18 left on IW. The workers will finish in two turns. In game score: 67.

>>>SAVE<<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo3000BC.zip)

BTW - should we be using a different name for the uploads, or do we not care if people are looking?

A screenie:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Sesn.JPG

OK, two more things:

First, of the four submissions so far, we're already last.

Second, I'm having trouble submitting the save. I get this error message:

Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object in /home/virtual/site7/fst/var/www/html/BabyBeast/CivFile.php on line 136

Anyone know what that means?

Guys - Just a heads up. Don't worry about Shoe - he was very reliable in my team last time round. Some people find it difficult to get on the net at the weekend.

Looking good! Nice call on the settler move. No scouts - good! :) No huts yet!? :(

Looks like we have lots of nice spots to settle, though the mountains may make RCP problematic. Looks like a radius 5 will fit, so far.

Those warriors need to start a beeline for the hinterlands to make first contact. No minimap so I'm not sure which direction.

A great start, SesnOfWthr.

About that...

Name on the upload - I don't think it matters for the upload form, since it probably gets renamed.

Submit error - hopefully a temporary problem. Report it on the maintenance thread if you are unable to upload. You can always do a normal upload and post it here (name like Alamo_SG002_3000BC_02.SAV, I guess).

Low score - probably because we built a worker so pop lower, and others may have more warriors. Not a big concern, yet.

Edit: I finally noticed the save file SensOfWthr posted above. I cannot open it. My guess is there is a version/mod issue. Error says:

Scenario Invalid Could not open scenario file. The file may be corrupt.

OK, two more things:

First, of the four submissions so far, we're already last.

Second, I'm having trouble submitting the save. I get this error message:

Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object in /home/virtual/site7/fst/var/www/html/BabyBeast/CivFile.php on line 136

Anyone know what that means?

Mad-bax pointed me at this post. I'm only interested in your upload problem and haven't looked at the rest of your thread, honest! Please can you upload your failing save using the Upload file option and PM a link to me? I'll investigate and fix whatever has failed as a matter of urgency.

Thanks.

I have sent the appropriate PM to AlanH. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? Does anyone know if there is a particular procedure for loading PTW games using the C3C disc? It is impossible to launch PTW directly, so I just loaded it using C3C. When I checked the civilopedia, there were no entries for volcanos, and philo was an empty tech (two fo the changes for C3C). Am I missing something?

EDIT: I have various graphical mods with Conquests, but have never had a problem in another SG. I have not modded the rules.

You can play PTW from the desktop using this shortcut.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM-ptw1.jpg

Then you will get this splash screen with 1.27f shown in the bottom left hand corner.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM-ptw.jpg

If you get the Conquests splash - as my wife would say - you're doing it all wrong ;)

@MB - I have tried launching PTW before and always got the error "Please insert the Civ3 PTW CD-Rom" or something to that effect. I have now completely deleted my ENTIRE Infogrames Interactive folder, and reinstalled.

For the first time, I got the PTW splash screen. :band:

I am replaying right now, I'll try to recreate everything as close as possible.

SesnOfWthr

If you don't see a shortcut then you can look for the PTW executable - should be something like ...\civ3\civ3ptw\PTW127.exe.

If we have a version problem then the easiest way to proceed may be to simply replay the start. Fortunately you made good notes, so the major decisions are repeatable. The warrior moves are not repeatable, but you do know what tiles got revealed from the 3000BC map.

Edit: Didn't see that last post - nevermind.

Ok, I tried repeating everything identically, including the wrrior moves, and I think I did pretty well.

Our score is still 67, we still have 7 on granary, 18 left on IW. Surprisingly, the warriors ended on the same squares.

However, I'm still getting an error trying to upload the save file. This one says:
ERROR
There was a problem with your submission:
Your entry has not been recorded. Please correct the items marked * and resubmit it.

The items marked with the star were username and file name. :hmm:

Before I try to figure that out, maybe someone can try the save to see if that part of it is remedied?

>>>SAVE<<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo_SG002_BC3000_02.zip)

And a new screenie, including minimap.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Sesn2.JPG

Yes, it works! [dance]

I was able to upload the *.SAV file without any problem.

Whew!

Now can you try to upload it, in case the problem is with my username?

I didn't spell your name correctly in the database SesnOfWthr. I fixed it and uploaded your file for you. :)

You will be able to upload saves now.

These must have been the most difficult first twenty turns that I have ever played!

Hopefully the rest of the game goes much smoother.

BTW - I screwed up the settling (hit settle then canceled) so "Leipzig" won't come up on our city list again. I settled Leipzig then renamed to Berlin.

*goes off to try to reinstall all of his graphic mods*

That explains it. Good catch m-b.

Ok, we're in the race.

bradleyfeanor If you see this in the next 5 hours then go ahead and do the next 10 turns. Otherwise I may jump in.

BTW, the "official" source for the save games is the SGOTM Submission List (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php). The table entries are links to the saves.

Edit: No Leipzig? The first city we capture will be renamed Leipzig!

That reminds me - I like to number my cities like Berlin->01_Berlin so that the alpha order in the F1 screen makes sense - productive core cities at the top, the rest in order of acquisition.

Edit II: I'm taking the second turn. GOT IT!.

All done with my turn. Save uploaded.

bradleyfeanor is up next, then shoe35.

Summary:

2550BC - FScore 76 - Granary build and filled - Forest chop in 2 turns - IW in 10 turns - No contact and no huts! - Lots of good land to grab.

I am thinking there are no barbs at all now! Mil advisor says nothing about tribes, though it's about time for some to pop.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/alamo_sgotm2_screen1.png

Log:

3000BC - Things looking good. Berlin is size 2 and unprotected, but no contacts and no sign of barbs yet. I will build a warrior next just in case.

Spice and incense visible. Sci 100 for IW in 18 turns. F11 screen shows London, Kyoto, Beijing, and Moscow also size 2. French and Indians did not make the cut (from F10).

Workers done irrigating wheat in 2 turns. Will mine the BG next.

Decide to send N warrior directly W, and the S warrior directly S to make contact.

2950BC(1) - Warriors move.

2900BC(2) - Irrigation complete, but I'll keep the tile assignment a couple more turns to avoid emptying the food just as granary is complete. Workers mine roaded BG. Warriors move.

2850BC(3) - Warriors move. N_Warrior finds the W coast - will send him NE next since S is most likely a peninsula (fish in saltwater).

2800BC(4) - Warriors move. Check the tile assignment - need one more turn on game tile.

2750BC(5) - Mine complete. Move workers to game tile - rats! Forgot about despotism penalty (-1 for >2). :blush: I'll send them to the SW forest next. S_Warrior spots ivory. Tile assignment switched from game to wheat.

2710BC(6) - Move workers to forest SW of 01_Berlin. Warriors move.

2670BC(7) - Workers start chopping (5 turns) - next player will get the shields in the 2cnd turn. Warriors move. N_Warrior spots more spices. Still no huts!

2630BC(8) - Granary complete and full :cool: - start warrior. Pop growth next turn. Ok timing on the chop even though I wasted a turn. Warriors move.

2590BC(9) - Lux/Sci to 10/90 to keep order. Warriors move.

2550BC(10) - Warrior complete - fortified. Lux/Sci to 0/80 for 10 turns, again. Warriors move. Berlin started a settler, and the chop will finish in 2 turns.

I am reading through the threads now. Sorry I was AWOL yesterday. I was at my girlfriends house and her phone line went down for over 18 hours. I have to work today, but can play this evening around 6pm. If someone can play before then, you are welcome to pick it up if Alamo gives the ok.

Good morning team.

Sorry I was AWOL this weekend. My mother was hospitalized for Heart problems
things seem to be getting better for her. I will keep on top of this now.

btw the game looks good so far.

I read through everyone's turns: great job on settling on the spot and recreating your turns SesnOfWthr. :goodjob:

I can't play at work, but I can plan out the best build sequence and the most efficient set up for our capitol. :) From looking at the screenshots, it looks like we have a plains wheat, a forest game, 2 BGs, 2 reg. Grass, and the rest is forest, hills, mountains and jungle. We also just grew last turn, so should have 13f in the bin and be making 3 food per turn. We also just built a warrior, so we have no shields stored. Is that correct guys?

Alamo:
Move workers to game tile - rats! Forgot about despotism penalty (-1 for >2).

I assume you are referring to the game tile getting no bonus for clearing and then irrigating? Actually, it would yield 3 food (2f for grass + 1f for irrigation + 1f for game - 1f for despotism).

I will work out an optimal build/tile development spreadsheet for the capitol, and see if we should do the clearing/irrigation of the game or just slap a road on it.

I fear my pre-game advice on building the worker as a third build was poor. With two BGs, a wheat and a game readily available, we will not have to do an inordinate amout of work around the capitol to get it going. I should have put more stipulations on my recommendation. Sorry guys. :blush:

We shall have to use him brilliantly to get back what we invested in him.

Your timing of the granary was excellent Alamo!

Welcome Shoe. Sorry to hear about your mom. Best wishes!

Good to see you, Shoe. Hope everything keeps getting better for your mom.

A quick note: the game already got a road "slapped on it" during my turns. I considered clearing it, but couldn't justify all the worker turns this early to trade 1 food for 1 shield.

EDIT: actually, I think we would lose the two shields, or is there a shield bonus for game that we lost due to the penalty? Can't remember ATM.

An unmodded game should yield 2f, 2s under despotism. Was I correct on the tiles we have by the way? I can't tell for sure, because the city name is over a few of them.

No offense, but that doesn't really answer the question. On what terrain would the game yield that? What is the actual bonus for game? 1f and 1s?

I'm at work too, so all I have to work with is screenies as well.

Oops, sorry. I'm glad you asked again though, because it made me think. Game yields +2 food. So when it is irrigated we can have the magic +5f per turn. :love:

I just realized I am definitely wrong on the tiles, because we uncovered some sort of grassland in our chop. Without knowing the exact number of BGs vs. Reg Grass we have, I will have to wait till I get home to see what type of factory we can make in the capitol.

In looking at the screenie again, I think this is what we have: 1 Wheat (irrigated), 2BGs (mined), 2 grass (undeveloped) and a game (mined???). If that is the case, that tile should be irrigated ASAP.

I think what you're seeing on the game is forest. The game was on forest during my turns, and I don't see any evidence that it was chopped.

Would be great to get a factory going ASAP.

Welcome, shoe35!

Sorry to hear about your mother. I hope she's ok.

No problem with turn order - whoever is ready post and play. I just assumed bradleyfeanor would be ready sooner.

When I moved the workers to the game tile I was thinking of mining it. I totally missed the forest! I should have chopped that one, eh? Come to think of it, mining that BG was not time critical, either. At least the 10 shields from the chop will be productive.

Edit: The 2cnd worker is still good, IMHO. We have plenty of forest and jungles, and we'll need plenty of roads. I should have included a close-up of Berlin - sorry.

Since no one has grabbed the game yet, I am assuming I will play around 5:30.

Here is what I plan to do, but please make suggestions if you have other ideas! I am posting this stuff so it can be discussed or improved on.

We can have a population 4/6, 4-turn settler factory if we clear and irrigate the game tile and mine one regular grassland. I think the 4-turn factory is our best option, because we can't build a pop 5/7 5-turn combo chariot/settler factory unless we happen to uncover two BGs by chopping, which would be extremely fortunate to say the least.

*Saying a prayer to Odin for a BG under our current chop.*

If we finish our current chop, mine/road the new grassland we will be standing on, then go to the game and chop and irrigate it, it will take us 15 turns. Build orders during that time are really tough. We are in the yucky position of producing 8 to 9 shields per turn, and we will be like that for quite a while. That is a waste of at least 6 shields for every military unit we build.

Therefore I think the best option is to let the settler finish in 3 turns with the help of the chop, and then build a barracks and two warriors. We really don’t lose shields because they would be wasted otherwise (unless we were to build a temple). We do lose a little cash, but that doesn’t bother me at this early point in the game. With this build order we will be back to a population of 4 in about 12 turns: still too early, because the workers will not be done. I will skip roading the first grassland (the one we are on), and that will save two turns. So on about turn 3 for the next player the settler factory should be online, but they might have to micromanage one turn in order to make sure production and growth occur at the same time.

I think the 4-turn factory is our best option, because we can't build a pop 5/7 5-turn combo chariot/settler factory unless we happen to uncover two BGs by chopping, which would be extremely fortunate to say the least.

I don't understand this 5 turn factory. Isn't the granary emptied upon growth to size 7? Could you please elaborate upon this?

Hmmm...you must have done a serious shield analysis. I wish the build queue would give shield costs.

Settler, barracks, warrior, warrior sounds good to me, especially if barbs start popping.

Bamspeedy's Bab Diety Settlers says: DO NOT GET TO SIZE 7. When you get to size 7 the granary is emptied.

I suppose there may be an exception if you build a settler on the same turn as the 7th citizen birth.

With 11 of 20 tiles covered tiles it is possible to find 2 BG's, but it would take time to uncover them all.

The key is that the settler must be built on the turn we would have become size 7. Since the settler is built on that turn, we never grow 1 point to size 7, rather we shrink 1 point (rather than 2) to size 5. The granary will only empty if you reach size 7 without building a worker or settler on the turn you will grow.

Here is an example of the 5/7 combo factory. We would need these tiles around our city for the combo factory:

One irrigated grassland game: 4f, 0s
One irrigated plains wheat: 3f, 1s
Three mined BGs: 2f, 2s (We only have two right now)
One forest: 1f, 2s
The city tile itself: 2f, 1s.

Our city starts at size 5 with a granary.
On Turn 1 we work all four BGs and our wheat, producing:
3f, 10s
On Turn 2 we work the same tiles:
6f, 20s. The production box then goes to 0 because we build a unit.
On Turn 3 we work the game tile, the wheat, and three bgs:
10f, 10s. The food goes back to half full because we get a new citizen. The extra two shields are also from that new citizen.
On Turn 4 we work the game, wheat and 4BGs:
5f 20s.
On Turn 5 the same:
10f 30+s. We grow on this turn, giving us a new citizen. We build a settler, taking our shields to zero. Then we shrink to size 5 (before the granary would empty), and start the cycle again.

I will try to find the thread for you that gets into a lot more detail. Essentially, the game makes the calculation that would empty the granary after the calculation that shrinks the city.

Got it, will play as soon as I get home!

I just did a little experiment with 10 random games with these map settings. In every case I found huts or another civ BEFORE 3000BC, even when I threw out 3 cases where huts were visible from the start. We should have seen at LEAST one hut by now!

Babarian camps seem to start appearing around 2150BC.

I am playing right now and agonizing over settling decisions. We just can't see enough of the map close to home.

I think you are right on the huts. Since this is monarch, I wouldn't be surprised if they removed them from our area in order to eliminate the possibility of getting a settler. That would have given a team a huge advantage. In our explorations, I think we should only concentrate on finding AIs and good city sites. If we find a hut, it will probably be very far from home. If anyone finds one far away I would recommend temporarily switching one city to a settler before popping it in order to have a better chance at getting a tech. Getting a settler far from home is of no use.

2550, turn 30 I agonized over where to send the future settler. We can’t see enough of our nearby terrain to decide on RCP distance. I think RCP 5 has better locations than 4 on this map, but it will make defense from the barbs more difficult. If a cow ends up outside the range of our first tier, don’t blame me! I debated switching the build to an exploring spear (because of the chop in 2 turns) instead of a barracks, but that would mean by the middle of the next persons turn, we would have 3 regular units instead of 3 veterans. I didn’t feel uncovering a few tiles was worth that, so I stuck with the barracks.

2510, 31 Warriors explore.

2470, 32 Chop completes, barracks > settler. Workers begin mine, but it is a regular grassland. Warriors explore (we are having abysmal luck at finding people).

2430, 33 Raise lux to 10%, science has to go down to 60% because of gold, IW due in 9.

2390, 34 Our northern warrior hits a dead end and turns to the southeast. It would take too many turns for him to reach new territory going down the west coast.

2350, 35 A barb climbs onto the hill to the east. Horrible timing, because I can’t stop the settler build. I also can’t send the workers to the game square, so all my carefully laid plans go up in smoke.

2310, 36 settler > archer. I take a calculated risk and send our warrior to kill the barb warrior. He wins! [dance] I send the workers over to clear the game tile and send the settler to follow the warrior. The southern warrior hits a dead end also. He heads west. Set lux to 0, IW due in 5.

2270, 37 The settler and warrior pair move toward the plain on the river to the west, SE of the BG. IW still due in 5 because we grow and I bump up Lux to 10%. Micromanage for +2f +7s. We will still grow in 4, but we will get the spear a turn earlier.

2230, 38 An English scout appears on the Mountain W-SW-SW of Berlin. They have four cities and are up CB and Alphabet. We have nothing they want. Is this really monarch level??? We do have some fantastic luck: the city spot I was going to has a wheat NE of it. Fortify warrior and turn lux off.

2190, 39 Spear > archer. Founded 02_Leipzig (great idea on adding the numbers by the way). The next city should be named Hamburg since we are off by 1. Now we can get IW in 2 and still make 2 gold per turn. Warriors explore.

2150, 40 England has 124 points, we have 82.

I hope the following is not too much info, but I want to make sure we get our settler factory going as quick as we can.

Leipzig is set to barracks, but the next player can set it to whatever he wishes. Berlin is on a spear but it could be changed to an archer if you prefer. Don’t change it to a warrior, because the chop will be done in 1 turn. Even though it says it will be done in 3 turns, it will finish next turn. The workers should both irrigate when the chop is finished.

After Berlin is finished with the Spear or Archer, I would set it to a Warrior, and then time the build of the settler so that is on the same turn that Berlin grows to size 6. I believe that will be 3 or 4 turns after a warrior is built. I tried to set things up so that there would be very little micromanagement, but I couldn’t. You will have to adjust tiles so production and growth to 6 occur on the same turn.

Remember to set the city governor (hit “g” on city screen) to emphasize production. It is vital to the settler factory. Don’t forget to raise the lux next turn or we will riot.

IW will be researched in two turns, but consider waiting to trade until we meet another AI. Switching research to the wheel at minimum, or turning it off, may also be a good idea. There is nothing we can research right now that the computer will not have to trade us when we meet them.

I will post screenshots in the morning. I got delayed in finishing my turns by phone calls, and now I am beat.

The save is

HERE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Alamo_SG002_BC2150_01.SAV)

Here is the known world to the NW…

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AlamoSGOTM2150BCNWEmpire.jpg

Here is the known world to the SE…

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AlamoSGOTM2150BCSWEmpire.jpg

And here is our “core”…

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AlamoSGOTM2150DotMap.jpg

This is a very tentative and incomplete dotmap. Our first city is at RCP 5, so I think we should stick close to that. It would make sense to build the next ring at RCP 8 because 5 and 7 overlap too much.

Exploration of the terrain close to us, in particular the areas near the blue dots, should be a top priority. Given what little we can see, I think the red dot should be the next city site. The two blue dots are tentative sites, pending exploration. Alternatively, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to send our current spear to the southern area to explore, and send the next spear/settler combo toward the northern blue dot to explore/settle.

If we can uncover enough of the map, here is another option on RCP that we should consider. If we can determine which of our first tier cities will have the best surrounding terrain, we could build a ring at RCP 3 or 4 around that city, and not worry as much about RCP around the capitol. We would then start a prebuild for the forbidden palace in that city. We would move our current palace to whichever AIs land we liked the most and establish our second core there. :) Thinking that far ahead in the build pattern of our empire can add a tremendous production boost that lasts the entire game.

I had to make two edits to my post from very very late last night :) :

IW is due in 2 turns, not 1, and the settler can be built three or four turns after the warrior. I am not sure which because I didn't feel like doing the math until I finish my coffee. :p

If you are fond of micromanaging Shoe, then I will not worry about it. If you aren't, let me know and I will happily do the math.

Since the barbs have reared their ugly heads, I expect we will see many more in coming turns. But that's ok, a few elite warriors or archers could come in most handy for bagging a few leaders later. :groucho:

Good luck Shoe!

A nice round. Good call on that barb.

An interesting idea about the secondary RCP. It would have to be on the W side.

Something else to consider is setting up another settler factory to the NW by all those floodplains.

2230, 38 An English scout appears on the Mountain W-SW-SW of Berlin. They have four cities and are up CB and Alphabet. We have nothing they want. Is this really monarch level???

Remember to set the city governor (hit “g” on city screen) to emphasize production. It is vital to the settler factory. Don’t forget to raise the lux next turn or we will riot.

IW will be researched in two turns, but consider waiting to trade until we meet another AI. Switching research to the wheel at minimum, or turning it off, may also be a good idea. There is nothing we can research right now that the computer will not have to trade us when we meet them.


The scourge of scouts has appeared, eh? They could have grabbed a dozen huts by now. Are you suprised by how far ahead they are, or not so far? I'm suprised they only have +2 techs.

The use of city governors is discouraged, but it is ok as long as you turn them off before the final save. Of course if we have a ton of corrupt cities then the city governor would be handy.

We should research for Polytheism at 10%, IMHO. It can reduce the price we have to pay for CB/Myst, and Poly is usually good to trade.

BTW, clicking the more on the Mil Advisor (F3) screen will get a comment about the closest barb camp, if there are any. I would definitely check that first on the next round.

I agree 100% on the second factory in the floodplains. We will need it later for workers too. Those jungles are everywhere.

I agree on the RCP around a FP to the west also, NW looks like a strong possiblity.

Very nice tip on the Mil Adv. I will definitely remember that!

I am not so sure they only have two techs on us. I wouldn't be surprised if they have writing and/or mysticism also. I am definitely surprised by their level, as I was expecting them to be noticably weaker on Monarch level. I guess that is good, because theat means we can get them to the UN faster. :)

I don't think we can research poly unless we get CB and Myst from an AI, preferably after meeting at least one more to bring prices down.

The gov. is set to emphasize production in my save. If we do not use the governor, I fear the settler factory may not work. I have not tested it. That one extra shield from the new citizen being placed in the forest instead of on a grassland is vital to its functioning. In case anyone does not know, once the factory is running, that citizen must be moved from the forest to the grassland every other turn.

Fortunately, our workers are nearly done around our capitol. After irrigating, all we need is a road on the grassland and a road on one river forest and we are done. If one heads over to develop Leipzig, that city will be excellent for military production as well as a settler or two. The other could head toward whatever site is picked for the next city.

I noticed we are dead last in score by the way. :( I think we will need some inspired strategy to catch back up.

I think that it looks good. Will play this evening.

also thank you for the advice

The gov. is set to emphasize production in my save. If we do not use the governor, I fear the settler factory may not work. I have not tested it. That one extra shield from the new citizen being placed in the forest instead of on a grassland is vital to its functioning.

Good point - the city gov set to production is needed on the turn before growth!

I wonder how Team Peanut went from 74 to 89 so fast. I bet they built an extra settler or a bunch of troops compared to us. We do have 2 buildings now. I'm not so worried about score just yet. I bet we catch up in the expansion phase.

BTW, our policy on demands for tribute is to give them whatever they want until we have an offensive force ready, right?

My standard policy on tribute is this:

If I don't think I can fight them and win, I cave.

Also, the sooner we get our factory going, and thus more pop, the sooner our score climbs.

Yep, I cave too.

Do any of you know of a thread that shows the factors that affect our score most? I don't really have a handle on the relative importance of land area vs. population vs. tech, etc.

This is just a guess, but I am thinking most of the teams got their factories going sooner than us and that is why their score is higher (although team Akots may already be killing people) :) Maybe if we can pull a few settlers from other cities we can catch up?

You can read SirPleb's milking article HERE. (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_maxscore.shtml)

IIRC, and I haven't read it in a while, food production, pop, and specialists influence score the most.

EDIT: food production indirectly influences the score.

(Territory + HappyCitizens*2 + ContentCitizens + Specialists) * Difficulty

So more food = more content and happy citizens. To increase score we should also prioritize hooking up whatever luxes we can find.

I found a thread that has a really cool 4 turn warrrior/settler factory HERE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=84236&page=2&pp=20)

This isn't the article that helped me out so much though. I will keep looking for that one.

Got it and will play this evening. (I am up, right? According to the roster...)

I'll try to get the Settler factory set up. I'm thinking that most of our cities should be to the west early on to block the English from expanding in our direction. Of course, the west is also heavily mountainous, so that plan may fail anyway. We'll see.

Hi Cuivienen. I think Shoe may also have the game...

2150 BC (40) --

All looks good. *Enter*

~ A barb appears south of Leipzig.

2110 BC (41) --

Berlin grows. Lux to 10%, Science to 20% (IW due next turn). Chop completes, irrigation starts.

Berlin: Spearman --> Spearman

2070 BC (42) --

Trade England Iron Working for Alphabet and 51 gold.

Iron Working --> Writing (trade bait) Due in 22 @ -2gpt, 64 gp in coffers

There is Iron on the mountain just south of Leipzig and more near the Floodplains. A third is visible north of the Spices.

2030 BC (43) --

Our Settler factory is ready, with Berlin at 5 fpt. Just need to grow a bit.

Not much else happens. We spot a barb camp in the far north.

1990 BC (44) --

Berlin grows.
Berlin: Spearman --> Spearman

1950 BC (45) --

We spot dark green borders in the south. Probably Russia.

1910 BC (46) --

Tralala. Nothing happens.

1870 BC (47) --

Berlin grows in two, but only builds the Settler in five. I change it to a settler anyway, as the Forest chop will speed the Settler. Hopefully the Forest chop will reveal a BG that we can mine.

We meet Russia. They are up Masonry and Ceremonial Burial and down Alphabet. England doesn't have Masonry, but Russia won't trade us Masonry. We get CB and 35 gold from Russia for Alphabet.

Lux tax is raised for Berlin.

1830 BC (48) --

zzz

1790 BC (49) --

Leipzig: Barracks --> Spearman

Chop completes -- no BG :( Workers move on to the next Forest to attempt to reveal another BG.

1750 BC (50) --

Berlin: Settler --> Settler

As long as we keep chopping forests near Berlin, we'll be close to, though not at, a Settler factory. I can't think of any better setup right now.

Anyway, the Settler has been sent NW to settle near some newly-revealed Ivory.

>>Save<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo_SG002_BC1750_01.SAV)

not sure about the order here but I am willing to play according to the roster.

just please let me know what the correct playing order is

thank you

Hi Cuivienen. I think Shoe may also have the game...

Well, its done now. Looking back, I see that he grabbed it. Guess I overlooked that... Anyway, I just submitted the save file, so just play from my save. Sorry about that.

no problem here


does anyone know the order of play.

ie who plays in what order?

Play order:

SesnOfWthr
Alamo
BradleyFeanor
Cuivienen
Shoe35

At least, that's the order we have used thus far.

As far as the factory, I think when the city grows to five, the extra two shields will drop settler time to four. Make sure "emphasize production" is on the turn before growth to five. It must be turned off before the save is submitted though.

Shoe35 please take your turn now.

Looks like you have a settler. Please see SensOfWthr's post about RCP sites.

Sorry Cuivienen, I forgot to mention you after that RCP discussion.

This order sounds good.

SesnOfWthr
Alamo
BradleyFeanor
Cuivienen
Shoe35

As for the city governor, I was trying to follow the rules post. I think this particular rule is more of a guideline. Governors could override the intentions of the previous player. In our case the governor is essential. Vive le governor!

FWIW, I think the spirit of the governor rule is to make us MM for happiness. I just don't want to be the one to say leave it on if it's gonna cause us problems with MB. :p

got it
will play this evening

Here is the current situation. The purple spot is the settlement spot SensOfWthr recommended. The other spots are RCP 5 spots, with the reds being mountains, and the light blues not revealed. Another settler is complete in 3 turns. Is that correct?

Check the F3 screen to see a barb camp warning!

Looks to me that the purple spot is outside the RCP

well anyway here is the Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo_SG002_BC1500_0..>) , well it will be when I can get it uploaded

1750BC Turn 50 everything looks good

IBT Barbs moving

1725BC Turn 51 Moving

IBT Barbs move; the English are building The Oracle

1700BC Turn 52 Increase Lux slider to avoid rioting. MM to achieve settler and growth on the same turn. Moving, fortified vet Spear at city loc

IBT Barbs attack 02_Spear holds off two of them and is promoted to elite

1675BC Turn 53 Established 03_ Moving

1650BC Turn 54 01_Berlin Settlerà Settler MM Berlin. Moving

1625BC Turn 55 Workers clear forest. Move to adjacent forest. Change Berlin to Spear Moving

1600BC Turn 56 Berlin SpearàSettler MM to increase income and time growth Settler Moving. Elite Spear removes roaming Barb

1575BC Turn 57 Moving

1550BC Turn 58 Moving, Elite Spear removes Barb Camp +25 helps to make up for the negative cash flow

1525BC Turn 59 Moving

1500BC Turn 60 Moving. The Settler has yet to move, couldn’t decide where to send him. Discovered WritingàPhilosophy didn’t check trades, so you might want to do that.


Score 115

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Map2.JPG

Shoe, that's the wrong save file. That one is 1750bc. Also, did you already submit the save?

I have checked and using the governor is fine. It is only discouraged because some players feel it is impolite to have it on on their turns without knowing it. All players have been well informed about the emphasize production governor in our game, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Here is a breakdown on the settler factory, we need to be sure it functions this way so we don't get further behind. Sorry, I should have explained this better in my turn summary:

The settler should have been started in 2030 BC, in that way, he could have been timed to be built on the same turn that our city grew to size 6 (turn 1870 bc). Because he was started late, there was no way to time the build with growth. Building the settler on the turn of growth to size 6 is the only way this settler factory will function. Our next settler could have appeared in 1725, and then another every four turns after that. We don't need to chop any wood around Berlin, that should be saved until we need it for a cheap library or a marketplace. In fact, our workers need to get away from Berlin ASAP and develop our other cities, like Leipzig, into worker/unit/settler factories. All Berlin needs is a road on its mined grassland and one on a forest river if it doesn't have them. It will not use any more tiles for a long, long time. Also, Berlin cannot build anything but settlers or it will throw off the timing.


Here is the way our factory works:
Turn 1: Governor set to emphasize production. City size 4. No food or shields in storage. Work wheat, game and two BGs. If there is a worker in the forest, move him to one of these squares. +5 fpt, +6 spt. The screen will say growth in 2, settler due in 5, but the settler will actually be build in 4.
Turn 2: 5 food in bin, 6 shields in bin. +5fpt, +6spt
Turn 3: We grow. Move new citizen from the forest to a grassland. We get 8 shields this turn, not 6, because the new citizen was placed in the forest. 0 food in bin. 14 shields in bin. +5 fpt, +7spt.
Turn 4: We have 5 food in the bin and 21 shields. +5fpt, +7spt. It will say the settler is due in two, but he will be built the following turn.
At the end of this turn (in between turns), the new citizen will be placed in the forest and we will get 9 shields, so the settler is built. Then everything starts over again with turn 1.

Whenever you meet someone, please post all the techs that are shown and how much money they have. Also, is everyone checking them every turn to see if they have techs to trade?

I think we probably do not need anymore spears. We should only be building warriors until we get a horse hooked up, then we will have to decide between warriors or chariots.

Why is 04_Konigsberg (as opposed to 03_Kongsberg) placed where it is? It has no access to the floodplains where it is...

Sesn is right, Shoe.
You linked to your starting save, and the 1500BC save does not appear in the submissions page. Any problem?

Since our workers are so far from Leipzig, I would consider building a worker there or begin building a temple so we can whip it. Switching research to Lit at minimum might also be a good idea, depending on what trades are available.

On the dotmap, I think the spot SE of the spice and S of the Iron look great. A port city located exactly 7 moves NE, 1 move E of Berlin would also be a great spot. RCP 8, and we could start a galley there as soon as we get map making. In looking at the mini map I suspect there is another continent somewhere to the East, and meeting a few civs there would give us tech parity or better (and full coffers) for a long time to come.

Looks good, shoe35. Check your autosaves if you can't find a good 1500BC save.

Is that a barb camp way up N? We must have traded maps! (AI WMaps show barb camps!) Send someone up to get that $$!

Yes, my purple dot was too far. (No, 5.5 - I stand corrected - again)

Both Konisbergs are R=5 cities. 04 will need a temple to get a couple of floodplains.

Obviously the next few settlers need to go S/SE to form the border with Cathy (and claim spice, iron, river, incense). If the S_Warrior explores W we can see if another R=5 city will fit (or more mountains :().

Next Up:

SesnOfWthr
Alamo
BradleyFeanor
Cuivienen
Shoe35

Your purple dot was not too far, it was perfect at a distance of 5.5. The numbers are rounded down in RCP calculations.

Also, Konigsberg will only get one floodplain with a temple. Should we consider moving it one square north so that it can be a worker/settler production city?

I will check on the save I may have loaded the wrong file .

sorry I didn't realize that the game rounds down.

Had problems uploading last night thought that I had it fixed.

Sorry about not keeping you posted on the tech's will keep better track next time

left porduction on spears as I figured they would be changed by the next player.

I am at work so I will have to wait until this evening to fix the Save problem

also sorry I forgot to change the name of 03-K

No problemo! I didn't realize we could learn the general vacinity of barbs by checking with the military adviser. I think these SGOTM's are a fantastic way to get better. Some of these players are unbelievably good.

I agree, I keep learning new tricks and usefull information.

unfortunately it sometimes comes from making mistakes or false assumpiotions :o

Also, Konigsberg will only get one floodplain with a temple. Should we consider moving it one square north so that it can be a worker/settler production city?

Looks like it could build a worker and disband easily, but we could just put another city a little further out (R=8). There are more floodplains on the coast near Leipzig.

I believe the appropriate proverb goes something like "The burned hand teaches best," Which would explain these blistered, bloody stumps I am typing with.

The RCP stuff is very powerful, but I am thrilled they eliminated it in C3C. The game is much more fun and realistic without it.

Putting another city out at RCP 8, perhaps on the square east of the iron, is a pretty good idea too. That city would get the iron and produce lots of food, but it would produce few shields due to corruption. Perhaps it could grow strong through pop rushing.

I am not sure which is the better plan, moving Konigsberg or settling the city beyond it.

Am I hearing things, or did two-wheat Moscow just whisper that it would love to be the location of our future palace?

ran into problems submitting the save as well but it is up now.

It appears to be the correct one as the score is what I ended with.

It appears that the link in your turnlog is broken, Shoe. I found the correct save in the upload folder HERE. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo_SG002_BC1500_015.SAV) (Actually, there was about five of the files in there)

I really thought that RCP only worked on the same EXACT distances, but you guys seem pretty sure, so I'll take your word for it.

I'm off today, so I GOT IT.

Thanks for finding the right link.
I guess the others appeared when I got error messages.
thought that ment that they didn't upload.
looks like maybe it didn't upload correctly.
sorry about the confussion

I really thought that RCP only worked on the same EXACT distances, but you guys seem pretty sure, so I'll take your word for it.


If have 5.5 then it gets rounded down to 5. You can read the thread for all the gory details.

Do you think you understand corruption?

2) Corruption calculations do not use Euclidean geometry, nor unit movement points, to get distance. Instead, the distance is based on the shortest path, where each orthogonal move costs 1.0 and each diagonal move costs 1.5, and the total is rounded down to the nearest integer. Another way of writing the distance formula is Distance = floor(max(x,y) + 0.5*min(x,y)), where x and y are the distance in the NW/SE and NE/SW respectively. (Formula discovered by DaviddesJ, rounding discovered by Qitai)

>>>SAVE<<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo_SG002_BC1250_015.zip)

IHT – Well, I can MM Berlin to get a settler/growth in 3 using the forest chop that will be done next turn. That will get Berlin back on schedule. Change Leipzig to worker. Send settler pair due SE to claim iron. Damn we need more workers. Berlin is improved appropriately, but almost nothing else is. Will try to at least hook up the ivory and go from there. Change Hamburg to warrior.

Rename 03_Konigsberg to 03_Hamburg. I was gonna be way too confused otherwise. While we’re on the topic of renaming, I don’t see any real need to rename the units according to their city, does anyone else?

Couple of trades available, let’s see how we can work this.
Trade Cathy contact w/ Liz and writing for contact with Joan and wheel. (she must be almost done with writing, as it was seriously devalued)
Trade Joan contact with Liz for Masonry and 10g.
Trade Liz masonry and 5g for mysticism.

Now at tech parity or better w/everyone. According to Shoe’s log, Philo was started this turn, so I switch to Poly in 36 at 1 gpt. The closest horses are just outside Minsk, at least the closest ones we can see.

Ok, I think I’m ready to start now. :D

1475 bc (1) – Forest chop at Berlin reveals a BG. Since we don’t need it right now, I’m sending workers to the ivory. I waste a shield switching Konigsberg from spear to warrior, should’ve done that last turn.

1450 bc (2) – Hamburg warrior -> worker. Konigsberg warrior -> warrior. Send both warriors north, 1 for exploration close to home, the other for the barbs.

1425 bc (3) – Berlin settler -> settler. 05_Munich settled, start warrior. It’ll be some time before this city is productive. Bump sci to 80%, shaving ten turns off Poly.

1400 bc (4) – Leipzig worker -> warrior.

1375 bc (5) – Looks like the damn English beat me to the barbs by a couple turns.

1350 bc (6) – I spot some horses due NW of Berlin that I somehow missed before….

1325 bc (7) – Hamburg worker -> warrior. Konigsberg warrior -> barracks. 06_Heidelburg is founded and starts warrior, beating the Russians to the spices by one. :lol:

1300 bc (8) – The damn English beat me to another barb camp!! Except this time I had already killed one barb and they come out of the fog to finish them off. Liz has just become my “hated enemy”. Berlin settler -> settler.

1275 bc (9) - :lol: :lol: :lol: A barb horse kills an English scout. Leipzig warrior -> worker.

1250 bc (10) – I find another barb camp, and I don’t think there is anymore English in the area.

Recap: Berlin is back on pace, although I think I screwed up one turn somewhere in there, although I should have produced two and been half way through the third settler, which I did, the forest chop should have put me one turn ahead of that schedule. The roads to ivory and Konigsberg should both be done next turn, and lux rate should be lowered accordingly. The settler to the north is going one more N to where the warrior is. Kind of cramped location, but that’s what happens with RCP sometimes. The warrior due SW of Berlin is on the last viable spot for our first ring of RCP. Poly in 10 at –3gpt with 59 in the bank, but that will be helped when luxury rate drops. We should make every effort to hook up the spices ASAP, as that will help with happiness/score, but the spices are also buried in the jungle.

Firaxis score: 148

>>>SAVE<<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo_SG002_BC1250_015.zip)

EDIT - We're in first place!!! Well, so what if no one else has submitted a 1250 bc save? :lol:

Alamo - I hat all those formulae involved with figuring everything out, as I said, I'll just take your word for it, though it's good to know for the future. ;)

The two red spot indicate our last two city sites for first ring. Northern one can be settled in two turns.

Red arrow indicates horses. I would recommend using the warrior here to explore more.

Blue arrow indicates barb camp.

Excuse my poor artistic abilities please. :lol:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo.JPG

Nice trades and nice turns, Sesn!

Good thing we beat that Russian settler to the spice - things could have come to blows early otherwise! Which way did they go?

I'll get in there and try to not mess things up too bad this evening.

Summary

FScore 186. One settler moving, one ready to plop down. Poly can be traded to Cathy or Joan if they discover something. Tribes near 04 to harvest, and 2 other known camps (see minimap at bottom). 2 roaming barbs on S border. Russian settler moving to the SE.

City race: Us 8, Liz 8, Cathy 6, Joan 4.

Start

- contact w/Cathy,Liz,Joan (no techs available)
- 6 towns (Liz 7 Cathy 5 Joan 4)
- Poly in 10, Sci/Lux 80/20
- 1 barb camp spotted, another near 04 (F3), close to Seljuk barb?
- Liz's border spotted
- Russian settler on the loose?
- stage C of settler factory

Settler Factory Stages:

A: Wheat+Game+BG+BG
B: no change
C: Move citizen from forest to mined grassland (now roaded BG)
D: no change
E: Settler out! Go to A

I didn't know the gov works like this even though it's turned off - good to know!

To do: Lux down next turn. Settler N then build. Next settler goes SWx5, most likely.

First I'll use 05,06 spears to explore for Russian settler. Cathy may be after our incense!

1225BC(1) - Ivory roaded - lux/sci to 10/90 (Poly 7). N_Warrior attacks camp - 1 hp for 25g! 05 spear climbs mountain for looksee - no Russian settler - whew! Free worker join irrigation crew. Warrior next to seljuk climbs NW mountain to look for magyars - no sign. 06 spear climbs mountain - Russian settler spotted just outside Moscow borders. S_Warrior heads NW to check for land bridge. Warrior way up N comes SW to look for Magyars. Warrior moves to game. Reg warrior moves to 04.

Russian settler founds town just outside Moscow?!

1200BC(2) - Vet Warrior escorts new settler to SWx5 spot. Factory back to A. Irrigation done - reset 03,04 citizens. Send 2 workers S for spice,iron. 3rd worker irrigates ivory. 07_Nuremberg founded, starts warrior. Leipzig worker moves to bg. O5 spear heads home. N_Warrior fortifies to heal. 06 spear heads home. Reg Warriors hunt Magyars. S_Warrior to NW. Found Magyar camp close to horses, on desert w/one 1 barb!

1175BC(3) - 05 builds warrior - start another. Warrior goes to hunt roaming barbs to the E. 05,06 spears home. S_Warrior NW. Magyar defeats reg warrior :( Other regs go for revenge! N_Warrior heads SE. Nothing to trade.

Barb horseman kills ivory worker near 03! :eek:

1150BC(4) - 02 builds worker, starts warrior. Worker to BG. 03 spear attacks horseman and wins - whew! Didn't want the ivory pillaged. N_Warrior to SE - not much more land to SE. S_Warrior to N - no obvious landbridge for Liz to cross. Factory stage C. No trades.

1125BC(5) - 03 builds warrior - starts another. Warrior heads to 01 for next settler. 03 spear goes home. Magyar barb shows up - first warrior passes him for camp. S_Warrior goes N - definitely no bridge, so we have the claim on northern lands (good barb farming if we can build more troops!) N_Warrior goes SW. Factory stage D. Cathy and Liz have MM, but no deal.

1100BC(6) - Lux/Sci to 0/80 (Poly in 3). Factory to A - settler heads for R=8 spot on river next to incense. Warrior chases. REg warriors hunt barbs. N_Warrior goes S - two cows! S_Warrior heads back SE. Last R=5 settler in position. No deal for MM.

1075BC(7) - 04 builds barracks, starts warrior. 06,07 build warriors - start more. One heads N, the other goes to 01. Workers finish mine, start road. Road on Berlin's BG finished - that can go into the factory rotation. Worker moves into jungle. Warriors move, except for one escorting Magyar. 08_Cologne founded - starts warrior. N_Warrior goes S - will start heading back. No deal for MM.

We now can build the FP.

1050BC(8) - Lux/Sci to 10/50 (Poly in 1). Factory to C. 02 builds warrior - starts another. Warrior heads for 01. Warriors escort settler or hunt barbs - Magyar camp in range. Still no deal for MM - Cathy just doubtful and not insulted like Liz - Cathy and Liz have not traded WMaps? Seljuk threatens 08.

Another Russian settler approaches...

1025BC(9) - Learn Poly, start CodeOfLaws. Lux/Sci 10/90 (CoL in 10). Liz offers MM+Tmap+70g for Poly, while Cathy offers MM+Wmap+30g. I want Liz's prized Wmap. We agree on MM+Wmap+21g=Poly+Wmap. So that's where Joan is hiding. I spy a barb camp way down S, and another far W, and a goody hut by StPetersberg! Cathy trades Wmap+41g=Wmap, so she can't buy Poly. Joan is always broke. Settler and escorts move. 02 workers finish road, move to irrigate grassland. Magyar camp cleared for 25g! S_Warrior moves to steal barb camp near Liz. Oops - hit page down and warrior goes off into the weeds. :cringe:

Liz demands Wmap+10g - one of those stupid demands for tribute that's easy to pay. We just traded Wmap! :lol:

1000BC(10) - Factory to A. Lux/Sci to 0/90. 02,03 build warriors - more started. Warriors go on patrol or escort - need more near S border. Russian settler is heading W - I bet it is heading for the ivory, so I'll head toward the R=8 spot on river SE of 05. Other settler reaches destination. F3 says Jute tribes near 04 (again) - not on map so just popped. FScore 186.

The minimap shows the known barb camps far SE and W. There is a big spot near 04 because there is another camp somewhere near 04. Note that we got Liz's world map.

Here's a closeup of the core situation. I believe the Russian settler is heading for the ivory, so we can claim that R=8 spot on the jungle river and solidify the SE border.

That minimap makes me happy. :)

If we can quickly build SE and west to close off the top, we van build a second core to the NW.

Good turns Alamo. Obviously we'll need more of a military preence during expansion than might be required otherwise. I rarely play with barbs this active, I'm surprised by how many we've seen in the last couple turns.

Sorry, I din't see your post, or I would have told you the settler went back to Russian lands.

I second the minimap = happiness sentiment, and I’m surprised by the number of barbs too.

More good turns team leader.

I can’t squeeze in my turns before work, but am looking forward to playing this evening around 5:30. If Cuivenien wants to swap I am willing, but his save must be posted and ready for me to download at 5:30! :)

I think we need to make a few long term decisions in order to play the next few rounds, please supply your thoughts:

Do we want to go Monarchy and maximize leader farming, or do we want to wait for Republic and maximize our economy and research? I would vote Republic, but am open for either. Alamo’s selection of COL seems to point to Republic too.

Do we want to build a second core of cities manually (probably to the NW), or do we want to establish our second core in foreign lands (probably Russia, but if the English have better terrain maybe there.) I prefer the quick, conquest route. We could build two stacks of 7 swords very quickly, but we would need to minimize research for a little while to pay for the upgrades. These AIs will probably never have much money so we will have to raise our own.

Shall we move Konigsberg or leave it be? It can build a settler and move now quite easily, unless something changed from PTW to Conquests that I don’t know about. One of our cities must start cranking out workers if we are ever to escape this tropical rainforest we were born in. The only choices appear to be a moved Konigsberg, or Leipzig rotating between workers and military.

Although, I expect Moscow could crank out quite a few workers. ;)

Yep, I chose CoL to get to Republic. I guess you would want Monarchy for a prolonged military campaign? We can wage 3 distinct wars w/o too much war weariness (hopefully).

Making a second core to the NW would make another RCP easier. Of course, a leader to rush a Palace/FP would be extremely helpful.

Go ahead and move 04 if you want. It already has a barracks, not that we will get the iron soon. There is a R=8 spot on the coast with floodplains, past 07.

I forgot to check - Is Liz the only one building a wonder? We could leave her alone until it is complete.:groucho:

If this was Conquests, I would say Republic wothout a doubt. Since it's PTW, I don't know if Republic gives any unit support?

I would rather build the second core manually, then we could build a ring at RCP 4 or 5 and have a truly effective second core. Taking over AI cities is quicker, but won't be as efficient as we'll have odd spacing and no RCP.

I would advocate a fairly surgical strike to take Moscow. This would have two benefits. As BF said, would be a nice worker factory. It would also hamstring Russia for the rest of the game and we could mop them up at our leisure. A similar strike on London may be useful. Generally, at this point in the game I like to cripple my close neiughbors, without sacrificing expansion if at all possible.

I think Konigsberg should remain. It's not a horrible spot, just bad for a worker factory. I think we would be better off spewing workers from either Moscow, or another city at RCP 8 or so that would grab some flood plains.

BTW - I've already been scolded for this in another SG, though not by Cuivienen. He is a she. She is also a high school student (and up in Sesn1) so I doubt she'll have a chance to play before 6 pm. It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong though ....

I would vote for the quick conquest route as well.
for research I usually go Monarchy, so I think it would be interesting to pursue the republic option

as for Konigsberg I vote move it. I would not have settled there if I had realized that the game ignores numbers to the right of the decimal point

after reading the previous post I like the Idea of leaving Konigsberg and taking Moscow for the worker fact.

Manually buiding second core with hitting our close neighbors also sounds like the best option

Thanks Sesn, and sorry about that Cuivienen! It looks like we have preferences for war, "somewhat" war and peace.

I want to propose an argument for bringing the full :hammer: early: please feel free to shoot it full of holes!

We are behind, and some of the teams ahead of us are very experienced and talented. If we go the peaceful expansion route, they will maintain their lead or increase it. They will definitely make few mistakes, if any at all. I think that means the only way to move ahead of them is too introduce a luck factor, and hope for the best. The number one way to introduce luck into Civ is through Great Leaders. This plan requires two leaders, but three would be ideal. War allows us to play to our strength: the militaristic trait, and getting three leaders is very possible for a militaristic Civ.

The plan:

We go to war as soon as we can get a few Swords and horses into the jungles and mountains of the Russian border, preferably in places where they can attack troops in the open. The horses are important, because their retreat ability makes it a bit easier to promote and get leaders. Research goes to way down in order to pay for warrior upgrades. We also set research to Literature because it takes the AI so long to research it. We don’t wait to have the forces to take Russian cities, because we want them to keep producing troops to promote ours. If we get a leader very quickly, we can rush the pyramids, but this is not an integral part of the plan.

We do not bring the other civs into an alliance against the Russians: let them come at us if they want. This will enable all three civs to continue to trade techs and do our research toward Republic for us.

As our reinforcement troops arrive, we take two Russian cities. The first critical leader will be used to rush the Great Library if it is already available, if not, we can rush the Forbidden Palace in the Russian city of our choice. We continue to fish for leaders as we take more Russian cities.

The second critical leader will be used to rush the GL, or the FP, whichever we did not get with the first leader. We take enough Russian cities to surround our new second core, and then we get a few cities from the Russians for peace. Hopefully, this final military push will get us the third Great Leader. If not, we attack one of the other civs to get it. The Great Library should have given us The Republic by this point.

As soon as the third leader appears, we make peace with anyone we are at war with and revolt to Republic. On the turn anarchy ends, we rush Sun Tsu if it is available. If not, we rush the Great Wall. Either will kick off our Golden Age, which we will get the full benefit from because we are in a Republic with two productive cores.

If we get the Great Leaders we need, I think we may well "luck" ourselves into first place after our Golden Age. :groucho: If we don’t get them…well, we may be eating with a wooden spoon. :(

What do you guys think?

I will definitely leave Konig where it is. On Republic Sesn, IIRC it has no unit support, but the support cost is reduced to one. It was generally considered the best overall government unless waging constant war for a long time.

No unit support in Republic, but extra gold for every tile worked. The decreased corruption and gold generally make it better than Monarchy, as long as wars do not drag out.

About that Russian settler: Now I'm not so sure about its intentions. It could have gone straight E to the ivory instead of heading towards us. We need 6 turns to settle, but they only need 4 to be annoying. Maybe the spear in 05 should go out and harass them.

Russia is a tempting target, but England is our biggest competitor.

Edit:

The war plan is a bold one, but it is possible to have a long war and get NO leader at all. We should have a contingency plan, and a pre-set trigger for switching to it. How many turns before we consider peace? What if we wind up fighting all of them in a serious war (as opposed to settler-rush)? What if other civs start settling our continent?

We are pretty much in the race. Our line is almost as steep as the leader's - we just have a 10-turn delay. If we keep the 5 turn factory running we will probably catch up. If a couple other cities build some settlers then we could easily go ahead.

So how do we want to win? Going for the variant means keeping good relations and taking the UN (or hoping the builder calls a vote for us). That pretty much means two things - growing a big population and only attacking people we intend to eliminate. Growing big means expansion, which we are doing pretty well right now. A war will be a distraction and risk damaging our reputation.

Joan will probably be friendly and harmless. We could give her a tech every so often when fighting Cathy or Liz to keep her out of the war. Who knows - she may even build the UN for us. :mischief:

Before going any furthur one question must be answered in a vote.

The question is: Are we going to try victory by the sponsored variant?

This has two impacts. First, if we are, then A) GL is useless as we can outresearch the ai ourselves, and B) we want to keep the ai at a reasonable size so they can contribute to the tech pace. This is where my "hamstring" comes into play.

If not, then we can go for an early conquest or domination, in which case BF's plan is better.

I'll agree that it's difficult to have a plan that requiresthe use of MGL's. We'd probably get none when we wanted them, but then get five straight in some small skirmish down the line.

FWIW, my vote goes to the sponsored variant.

before voting I would like to be sure that I understand the sponsered variant.

my current understanding is that if we use the variant then victory can only be acheived by diplomacy, and we are forbidden to build the UN.
also I think there was something about not being at war when the vote was called.

if so it will be interesting.

willing to go with either set of victory conditions, no preferences unless I have misunderstand the Variant

The variant is simply to win by UN vote without building the UN yourself.

A proposal to exclude the 'diplo dogpile' victory was briefly discussed, but not many people commented so it was dropped. Basically you can misbehave all you want if you can capture the UN and then get everyone MA/MPP'd against the other nominee(s) when a vote comes up.

There is No bonus for achieving the variant, so I could go for a bit of warmongering to see if we get lucky. I just want to have a fall-back plan when those pesky AI aren't grateful when we liberate their towns. :saiyan:

So the fallback plan is something like this: Eliminate the AI with most desireable lands, make nice with the survivors, and build-build-build to make sure we're ellligible for the first UN vote. A bad rep from an early war can be repaired, so now is the time to exercise power, if we are so inclined.

that being the case war sounds like the better option to me

Remember that although there is no bonus for the sponsored variant, that you are only elligible for the gold laurel by following the variant. The awards will be put against your name forever, and will make up part of your record in the Pantheon of Heroes (or something very similar - bu I make no secret of wanting it to be the same table).

Whether this kind of thing interests you is up to you of course, but if you are going to play this regularly then it might provide a competitive element that improves the fun factor.

Personally, I'm waiting for players to start being traded between teams. ;)

If there is NO bonus, then why would we bother, other than a last resort?

Personally, I want to get the highest score possible. On this map size, that is most easily achieved by early conquest. Although milking could be close, I have no desire to keep passing around the game to each milk for ten turns.

I'm sure at least a portion of the teams will be going for the variant, obviously excluding team Akots, so we would have less competition going for conquest.

You know, no matter how hard I try, I can't suppress the warmonger within. :rocket:

EDIT: MB, if you're still lurking, will the teams get shuffled automatically, or will they stay basically the same next month. Personally, and nothing against you guys, I vote for shuffling as I like to interact with as many different members as possible here.

EDIT2: We all seem to immediately lean towards abandoning the variant. Does that mean we'd have less competition if we do pursue it?

The variant incentive is bragging rights, and that gold laurel. :smug:

If we get to a milking situation then I'm sure we could increase the turns. I have never done a milk run, so that could be interesting - but we'd better start arming for war soon! For the variant we would need 2 survivors, and fission early enough for one of them to actually build the UN.

My vote is to fill out our R=8 cities then start arming for war! :evil:

We can still build a few settlers to claim land. I have a sneaking suspicion that galleys are already on their way.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I want the route with the greatest chance of coming out on top. If we think only two teams are going variant route, then maybe we have a good chance at that route. If we decide the variant will be the preferred victory, then start whooping ass and taking names ASAP! Not sure how we could decide though. It occurred to me if we were a general sample, and we all leaned towards non-variant, then the same could be true of many others.

Bah. I think I'm just going in circles here.

I can't wait to go home and have a beer now. It's hot and I don't function well in the heat. :beer:

@ Shoe: Actually, you can now be at war when the UN vote is taken. That idea died because Akots team would not be able to do always war + the variant, which they stated they wanted to do before we started. That was the way things stood last time I looked.

Sesn, I am with you and want to win by the variant.

In my experience, two very strong AIs push the tech pace much more than several weak ones, so I still think full scale war as opposed to limited conflict is a better way to get a high score and win with the variant. Since we can declare a war right before the vote and sign alliances against the other candidate, I don’t think wars will hurt us. I agree with Sesn that the Great Library is useless to us in tech. Not in that it is useless however. It is the only way for us to kick off the Golden Age until Newton’s University at the end of the middle ages. It would also be helpful for building a very powerful, large military quickly, because we could divert all our commerce to upgrades.

Very good point on the contingency plan, Alamo. How about this: it is kind of a middle ground between Sesn’s “hamstring” and my all out war. We don’t stop the settler factory and keep expanding. We still build a few workers. We only dedicate our other cities to the war. Essentially, we would be delaying the building of our temples, markets and such, but in exchange we would be getting cities by conquest and getting an excellent shot at generating a few leaders.

I don’t think the AIs can hurt us even if they all attack together. In fact, it would probably help us get leaders, because we have better victory odds when their troops are out in the field and not fortified in a city. The initial stack-attack is all we would need to be prepared for.

If you guys want to go this route then I will decrease research and switch to Literature. If not (or I don’t hear back), then I will just stay the course during my turns.

My post is nearly obsolete, as everyone changed their minds while I wasn't looking. :(

The problem is that we can't build fast enough to do everything, as opposed to the AI who are getting significant discounts.

It might actually be easier to win the variant by playing nice with the neighbors, since there's plenty of land to settle. We could pit our side of the world against the rest of the world, and then 'borrow' the UN from whichever of our friends builds it first.

Well, I seem to be arguing both sides to great effect! :lol:

To prepare to bring the :hammer: or not to bring the :hammer:. That is my only question for my turns.

I fear if we wait to get our RCP 8 cities before we arm, we will lose the chance for the Great Library/Great Wall combo Golden Age.

I don’t think the AIs can hurt us even if they all attack together.

England alone can outproduce us. They just have lousy tactics.

I support your proposal:

We don’t stop the settler factory and keep expanding. We still build a few workers. We only dedicate our other cities to the war.

We still need several turns to get iron hooked up, too.

I'm playing now. Interesting stuff about players and trading and such. An NFL style draft might be fun. MB could pick the leaders, then they would have a lottery for picking order, and then pick their players.

I'm playing now. Interesting stuff about players and trading and such. An NFL style draft might be fun. MB could pick the leaders, then they would have a lottery for picking order, and then pick their players.

Now THAT's quite a concept -- but you get back to the schoolyard days and who would be picked last. (probably me)

EDIT: FWIW, I'm good with the compromise proposal also.

As for player ranking, there are different skills. There would have to be some scenarios set up to measure people's stats.

tacticians - 5 star generals
milkers - accountants
strategist - absent-minded professor
quick starters - cultivaters
diplomats - George Sr. (but with our military, who needs 'em?)

I'm not sure where I fit in. I don't see a category for someone who, blindly at times, just likes to bash people.

I've always been told I should be an accountant, but I've never even tried milking.

People-basher - that could fit in somewhere. I just ran out of ideas for that train of thought.

If you are good with nit-picky details (unlike me), then maybe you should try a quick-start challenge. A milk run is rather lenghty, so I wouldn't wish it upon the average fun-loving gamer.

BTW, as of 1000BC Cathy, Joan AND Liz are building wonders - Pyramids and Oracle, in capital cities. If we play our cards right we could get 3 wonders for the low price of 1 conquering division.

I like free wonders!! Those are the best kind.

Pyramids would be especially good, if we can capture it soon.

What exactly is the quick start challenge anyhow? is it like a scenario where you start with a certain number of cities, or something similar? I don't like those RoR scenarios and such, because I don't have any built up knowledge of the game. The first few turns take me so long to familiarize myself with units and tech trees etc that I lose interest rapidly.

Quick start challenge used to be a GOTM add-on where people would play 4000BC-1000BC and compare results. There are several threads where people discussed the results.

Here is one thread QSC20. You could get the GOTM20 game and follow along the discussions and learn a bunch about getting started. This is good advice that I usually don't follow, of course. :p

Summary: Wonders good, especially when we don’t build them! Barbs bad, especially in great numbers (don’t worry we haven’t hit the age-change explosion yet, but there’s a bunch of them nonetheless).

1000 BC, turn 0 Checking it all out, and it looks good. The military adviser says our military is strong compared to everyone else. Moscow and Paris are both building the Pyramids. Lizzie is building the Oracle. All builds are in their capitols. Hmmm, weak militaries and all devoting their capitols to wonders. Hmmm indeed. I look back through everyone’s turn logs to see if anyone logged when the builds started. Doesn’t look like it, so I am guessing they started them all before Sesn’s last turn. In examining their terrain I suspect Paris is only generating about 5spt and Moscow 5spt. I think Lizzy is probably at 8spt. I decide to establish an Embassy with Russia for two reasons 1) I don’t want to stop Cathy from building our Pyramids if she is close (even though I doubt she is), and 2) I want to know if she and Lizzy go to war.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2AlamoMoscow.jpg

I notice Cathy has ivory already hooked, so Alamo is probably right about that Russian settler causing problems, so I do send out the spear from 05. Switch 03 and 05 to workers: 03 because they have the excess food and 05 because he is worthless until a few jungles get cleared.

Has anyone else noticed that all the primo terrain is outside RCP 8? Horses, cows, wheat, BGs. Sheesh.

I decide to switch to Literature, due in 13, gpt +1. I hope no one gets mad at me for that, but I am doing it for two reasons: 1) The computer usually researches it dead last in the ancient age, and 2) considering that Lizzy has a high production city and is already building the Oracle, she just might build the Library for us if we give it to her. All we have to do is control wonders that meet our Golden Age requirements at the time we build any wonder to go into a GA, and maybe Lizzy will build the Great Library for us, eliminating the need for one Great Leader to reach our GA.

975 BC, 1 Switch 02_Leipzig to a worker. Kill a few barbs. Switch 06_Heidelburg to a worker. Found 09_Hannover south of Incense. Continue settler pair to Alamos jungle/river spot.

950 BC, 2 Build a worker and a few warriors, order up two more workers and one warrior. Our warrior on the NW peninsula (past the horse) spots an unfortified barb but dies attacking him on a grassland. One warrior heads to Berlin because I have to raise lux to 10% on this turn. Trade around world maps. I spot the Russian settler with our spear from 05. He is heading east, but I am not sure where, maybe the ivory. I can’t catch him wherever he is going, and if he founds where he is there will be too much overlap with our proposed city site.

925 BC, 3 Cathy starts the Colossus in Smolensk. Man, she is leaving herself wide open to invasion. Spot a barb hut on the southern tip of the NW peninsula. It is the Jute tribe.

900 BC, 4 Aarrgh, the Russians found Tblissi and screw up our proposed city site. Switch three cities to a Rax. Spot barbs north of 03. Two workers begin roading the iron. I will clear the jungle to the NW so we can connect/disconnect it easily whenever we wish. Settler built, and I send him to the desert in the middle of the FP to the west. Debated founding on the river, but the desert blocks Lizzy better. I sent Berlin’s spear with it because that area has lots of barb activity. The warrior stays home, and another will join him soon. I send the settler Cathy blocked back north to build a boat town. Lux back to 0%. No trade available, and the military adviser makes like a broken record about Jutes near Konigsberg. Yeah, I know, how about the other barbs?!

875 BC, 5 The Jutes have two horses and my warrior is in deep trouble. These barbs are a pain. The Gepid tribe to the East has horses too. Another warrior in jeopardy and I fortify on a hill for now. I will give the horse one turn to attack me then move in. A worker finishes irrigating a grassland. (insert weed) Starts to mine. Glad I switched off COL, because Liz and Cathy just got it. Trade Cathy Poly for COL and her maps, she has no money to sweeten the pot.

850 BC, 6 Two barb warriors, one to the north and one to the northeast, move off further north, away from us. Is there any reason for a barb to do that unless someone has landed on our continent??? Warrior kills a horse. Lizzy got the hut we were trying to pilfer from next to her and she founds Oxford on the spot.

825 BC, 7 Two jute horses attack our warrior and promote him to elite (1hp damage). He moves next to the village. I forgot to move Berlin off the forest last turn, so we get a 5 turn settler. That is two weeds in one turn. Not good. Sorry.

800 BC, 8 Kill two barb horses, but there are lots more where he came from, especially to the east. Two workers start roading the spices. Found 10_Bremen in the western FP. Our elite warrior destroys the Jutes and then salts the ground upon which they spawned. Lit due in 3.

775 BC, 9 Late settler complete. More barb horses appear to the east. We attack the Gepid encampment to the SE and our warrior is destroyed. Horses, horses, my kingdom for horses!!! Iron is hooked up and I upgrade two vet warriors to swords for 40g each. I will upgrade another as soon as I can get a vet to a barracks. I have to bump up research to keep Lit due in 2. I think it is worth it if we can get the AI to build the GL for us.

750 BC, 10 Oh no. No. NOOOOOO! The English complete the Oracle. One turn before we get Lit. A pox on all English!!!

Our wonder-building opponents will be ripe for the picking in around 15 turns if we keep building military and start raising cash on minimum research. Of course, we wouldn’t want to disturb their wonder building cities.

For Cuivienen: 04_Konig is building a sword, but you may want to switch it to something else (maybe a cheap library or another worker) and connect/disconnect the iron in order to build and upgrade warriors. There is a warrior roading from Leipzig to Berlin, but go through the mountain and not through the hill next to the iron. Otherwise, it will be too time consuming to connect and disconnect the iron.

The settler to the northwest should probably wait for the sword that is coming to join him. We had two warriors killed by barb horses in the mountains around 5 squares north of 03_Hamburg. I do not know if they were from the hut shown on the map, or from another hut closer to those mountains. The mil. adv. will tell you there are barbs next to Hannover. Actually, there are at least three camps. They are marked on the map. There are also horses in the area (at least two). I started a sword that direction, so you can decide whether you want to attack with the warriors or retreat them to upgrade them. Our Elite warrior that killed the Jutes is healing in the NW.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2AlamoBarbs750_copy.jpg

The known barb camps are shown in yellow, the possibles in red.

The spots I had chosen for the two active settlers are shown on the map below. Both are RCP 8/8.5.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2AlamoDots750_copy.jpg

Firaxis score: 225. The save is HERE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Alamo_SG002_BC0750_01.SAV)

On the player picking: you're right Sesn! *Please don't pick me last, please don't pick me last.* Ha!

Whatever you do, do NOT decide to milk a game. Two months later you will look back and wonder where the hell your life went. Sir Pleb just did a Sid level hall of fame game, and IIRC, he logged 432 hours! The thread is actually pretty amazing, and is located HERE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=81424&page=1&pp=20)

Cuivienen: Almost forgot, be sure to check for tech trades on the 0 turn, I forgot. We should trade away Lit as soon as we can to get the Great Library built for us!

Actually that thread was damn near impossible, don't know how he did it. I lurked in that thread pretty much start to finish. I can say without a doubt that I will NEVER spend 432 hours on a single game.

Your turns were good. I did the same thing on the factory one turn myself. Real crap luck on the oracle thing though. I think your "insert weed" is :smoke: or : smoke : w/o the spaces.

You kept the curve up and to the right - good job. We're above Ankka. Might have been a little better if I had sent the settler in the right direction. We should get an award for being consistently ahead (in submits).

Well, I almost picked Lit for research. Guess I messed that up. We could still 'gift' it to Liz. If she's not busy building wonders then maybe she should be the first target, as the others will be less of a threat.

We are at war with the barbs, eh? Even on raging they are not single-minded when roaming. IIRC, they were brutal on one of the vanilla patches, but it got relaxed for PTW.

The point about the iron road is to keep it isolated - no roads on adjacent squares. I presume we would pillaging our own iron to re-enable the build warrior option. I hate the auto-obsolete, especially for UU's!

That #%@$ russian settler went right for our spot! I may have plopped down right next to them anyway - not reasonable, but stubborn.

Ok, I get the bum worker award. I started to irrigate the grassland, which is pointless under despotism. :crazyeye:

Edit:

After looking at Moscow I don't feel so bad - why is the AI so bad at terrain improvements?

Yeah, Sir Pleb's game blew my mind.

Oh, that was your worker Alamo? Thank you, I feel a teeny bit better now. ;)

Hmmm, gifting Lit. outright for free. I kind of like that idea.

Next Up:

SesnOfWthr
Alamo
BradleyFeanor
Cuivienen
Shoe35

We are trying to do 3 things - keep factory humming, arm for war, and beat down the barbs.

I suggest sending out the few regular warriors to get promoted, or die trying. After that, try to get the vet swords out to hone their skills.

*oof*

Three SGs, plus one I couldn't finish last night... This one takes precendence over all but the unfinished one, so I'll play this tonight.

Got it.

750 BC (IT) --

All good *enter*

730 BC (1) --

Literature --> Mathematics (Due in 8 at -3 gpt)

We lose a Warrior attacking a barb camp in the southeast.

I can't stand the idea of giving the English Literature for nothing. First, I trade Literature to Russia for Philosophy and their WM, then sell Literature to England for 90 gold and their World Map. The French are poor and stupid and have nothing to give for Literature.

710 BC (2) --

02_Leipzig: Warrior --> Warrior
07_Nuremberg: Barracks --> Spearman

11_Stuttgart founded on the eastern coast.

690 BC (3) --

01_Berlin: Settler --> Settler

The English begin the Great Library!

12_Bonn founded in the north.

Our Settler heads to an 8.5-ring spot in the south.

Russia has HBR. Not of huge interest, but just to keep things up-to-date.

670 BC (4) --

02_Leipzig: Warrior --> Warrior
03_Hamburg: Barracks --> Library

650 BC (5) --

MM 01_Berlin for growth in 2.
A barb Warrior attacks one of our Warriors on a Mountain and loses.

630 BC (6) --

ZZZ

610 BC (7) --

01_Berlin: Settler --> Settler
02_Leipzig: Warrior --> Warrior
08_Cologne: Barracks --> Warrior

The French now also have HBR. I trade them Code of Laws for HBR and their WM.

Science reduced to increase income, as Mathematics comes in next turn.

13_Salzburg founded.

We disperse a barb camp in the west. The new Settler heads for another 8.5-ring spot in the east.

590 BC (8) --

Mathematics --> The Republic. Due in 20 at -5 gpt.

Due to inattentiveness, 02_Leipzig riots. heh. Taxman hired.

570 BC (9) --

07_Nurember: Spearman --> Worker. The governor wanted to build the Pyramids!

Russia begins the Great Library.

Disperse a barb camp in the southeast.

MM 01_Berlin again.

550 BC (10) --

Not much to be done. I planned to settle one tile to the east of where our Settler is right now.

>>SAVE<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo_SG002_BC0550_01.SAV)

Current Firaxis Score: 273

Looks good - still on a good curve. We are neck-in-neck with 2-3 teams.

We are done with R=8, so Berlin can switch production for now. The current settler being built should go to the horses. What to do then? If we want to capture wonders then we may have to wait a bit. In the meantime we could do 1 of 3 things:

1) keep the settlers coming
2) build many troops (and pay the cost)
3) build an improvement or two.

What will be the war plan? Which wonders are we willing to wait for?

If we're going to war soon then we cannot afford -5gpt. It cost 40g to upgrade, right? We've got 3 swords and 15 warriors.

There are still 4 reg warriors that could get promoted fighting barbs. I think there is another unmapped camp near 10.

Next Up:

SesnOfWthr
Alamo
BradleyFeanor
Cuivienen
Shoe35

Got it.

A couple of questions tho


if we are to build improvements which would be the most advantagous.

if we continue building settlers, what would be the best stratagy for planting towns? should we go for the last 2 R8 sites (in spite of thier poor location) or would another stratagy help us more

should I change warrior production to swords, if not should the slider be adjusted to allow for faster upgrades?

I will check back this afternoon before playing

I would appreciate any advice.

Thank you

I say let's arm ASAP to take out mother russia. Moscow is probably 40+ turns from pyramids, and they started colossus late.

Build swords and divert funds for upgrades.

Probably 3 stack of 5, or 2 of 7 swords could efficiently get things rolling. Some spears wouldn't hurt, as we will fight some horsemen and they can garrison new towns. Most of the towns can be captured, though one could make way for another r=8 town.

If we go slow to get elites up front then we may have the time to build a settler or two.

Once Cathy has retired we could settle the best lands NW and SE. Any extra troops can be diverted to the barb patrol or settler escort.

I agree on taking out Russia and not building any more settlers. Check the terrain around the cities she is building wonders in, and if they do not have 8+ shield production, I would take her out, wonder cities and all. If any of the wonder cities have a lot of shields then take those cities last. I expect you will see three units in each city on average.

I think France will get the Pyramids, and hopefully England will build the library for us.

I would cut research on Republic to minimum and continue building warriors, then upgrade them with the cash we raise. If we did that, then our cities could alternate building libraries and warriors. Of course, we would want to switch to markets once we have currency. We could build a few catapults and spears also.

A spoiler thread has opened for the Ancient Age. It required one team member to write a summary of the ancient age before the others can post. Does anyone wish to volunteer?

Of course, we still need Currency and Construction to qualify (and we were on Republic last save), so it may be a few turns before our ancient times are over. Other restrictions apply:

1. Your team must be researching a middle age tech.
2. Your team must have contact with the three AI opponents that started on "your" continent.
3. A nominated team member must have posted a summary of the teams game to the limit of this spoiler.
4. No discussion is permitted regarding "Free Techs".
5. No discussion is permitted of any contact made from other continents.
6. No discussion is permitted of any Middle Age resource locations.

Shoe35 has the game. Let us know if you want some help.

Well, I suppose I could be convinced to write up a brief summary when the time comes.

It will be interesting to see where the other teams are at.

Turn 0: 550BC Set research to min upgraded 2 warriors to swords, left current warriors in build, it will be faster to upgrade them

Turn 1: 530BC 01_ Berlin SettleràSword, 09_Hanover BarracksàSpear, production seems slow at this point if it looks like I can improve on this I will otherwise it can be changed by the next player. Sent settler to last good R=8 with spear escort. Workers road to connect 09_Hanover to network and Incense. Warriors moving to barb camps.

Turn 2: 510BC 11_Stutgard Worker à Sword, Worker to speed road work. Worker near 10 roading plain. Upgrade a warrior to Sword. Outlying warriors barb hunting. Founded 14_Dortmund Forgot to check trades last turn. This turn no techs. Russia was after our territory map so I picked up some gold and maps.

Turn 3: 490BC 07_Nurenberg Workerà Sword. Moving. No Techs available.

IBT the French have started The Great Library

Turn 4: 470BC Remove North Barb camp. Moving to intercept barbs and camp by 10_Bremen. No techs

Turn 5: 450BC 04_Konigsberg Sword à Sword. Send to backup 10_Bremen.
Liz has Monarchy not will to trade.

Turn 6: 430BC Moving swords into position, at least as much as possible. Liz still won’t let loose of Monarchy. We take out a Barb in the SE.

Turn 7: 410BC 06_Hiedleberg Rax à Sword. Overlooked 01_Berlins growth and let it riot. (Sorry) Adjusted Lux to 10%. 08_Colonge Warrior à Warrior. Moving. Upgraded 2 warriors to Swords. Liz still holding Monarchy close to chest.

Turn 8: 390BC 01_Berlin Spear à Sword. 10_Bremen Rax à Sword. Founded 15_Brandenburg à Warrior. Moving. Still no deal on Monarchy.

Turn 9: 370BC Moving. Liz is still being Stubborn.

IBT English start Pyramids

Turn 10: 350BC 03_Hamberg Library à Sword. Moving. Workers near 10_Bremen and 06_Heidelburg awaiting orders. Sword stacks (size 2 & 4) haven’t moved. Cathy and Joan have no techs to offer, and Liz is still being stubborn and won’t talk about it.

Warriors in 08_Colonge should be able to upgrade as soon as the road is in.
I tried to get us into position for the offensive against Russia.

Firaxis score: 328

Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo_SG002_BC0350_01.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Territory.JPG


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/map11.JPG

Nice turns, Shoe. The :hammer: approches! I am anxious to find out which cities are building which wonders: I hope the French did not stop the Pyramids, otherwise the other continent(s) might get them.

As soon as we have a strong military and take a few Russian cities, we should consider declaring on the English to slow down their research. Otherwise, our Swords may be looking at Pikes when it is time to take their cities.

We should also leave one Russian city around, so we can get aquire their free tech.

By the way, is our port city building a boat?

Just saw it, this is my got it, though I can't play till this evening. So where do we stand? Do I get the honor of maiming the Russians? Or do we need another ten of building first? IIRC, Tbilisi will get the torch to make way for a last r=8. We'll be keeping the rest, right?

If someone has a chance, just give me a quick briefing of where we need to be, as I can't look at the save right now, and I'd like to play/post as soon as I get home. (7pm EDT)

I am not sure of the size of our military. If you feel it is big enough, then :spank: away!

I think moving is a good idea on Tblisi, unless you think we will build our FP less than 8 squares from the existing city. If we do that then it wouldn't help us to move it.

I would like to keep the Russian cities, but I don't know what their culture is. You may have to do a lot of flip management.

I'm thinking that after taking Tbilisi (autoraze? Settler JIC), Odessa, Minsk, and Moscow, Cathy will give us whatever we want to let her live.

What's the first priority for any MGL, should one pop up? The GL or the FP?

That goodie hut is still there! :lol:

Tblisi will probably have 2-3 pop by now. You can build/rush workers to disband. A raze will be an unnecessary tarnish to our rep.

Foreign palace is my preference for the first Military Great Leader.

Yakutsk is in a strange place. I would be $$ that there is some strategic resource to be found there.

I played a game over the weekend where I held my first MGL way too long, but my luck was good and I got two more just a few turns after rushing a palace. I wasn't even a militant civ. It will be awhile before I see that again!

Edit:

That was a good mobilization effort, shoe35.

We are well ahead of 2 teams now, and a nose behind offa. Scores are incomplete at 350bc, but things are looking good.

6 swords near 13_Salz.

3 warriors 08_Cologne road s/b finished soon
1 warrior 08_Cologne & 14_Dortmund 2 turns

3-4 warriors from core in 3 turns

1 Sword near 09_Hanover

1 Sword near 15_Brandenberg Barb Camp

3 roving Warriors.

I believe that you can have 15+ Swords in 3-4 turns logistics may or may not be a problem

15+ swords seems like a pretty good strike force to me...

I have found that the GH's stay on my maps until I rescout the area. I'm sure that hut is long gone by now.

Yakutsk looks like a saltpeter city to me.....

Hopefully, I'll have taken Moscow before getting the first MGL, as that would probably be the best site for it, otherwise, I'll probably do the GL and hope for a second one.

BTW, what does the "no free techs" clause mean in the spoiler thread?

I had to think on that "free tech" for a minute also. I think they mean do not reveal which free tech we get upon entering the next age.

I just noticed something about our map, and wish I had seen it sooner. I think we can set up a leader farming operation against the English while we are at war with the Russians:

There is a grassland 3 tiles West of 04_Konig. We build a city there and leave it empty. We put a spear on each of the mountains 1 tile south. I think that would make Lizzy send all her units at us by going west of the gold, because the route is so much shorter for her than going around the lake. We could make mincemeat out of her with just a small sword force attacking from the mountain.

If at some point we have a few extra units, we may want to try that.

I like your leader farming operation, very devious of you. :evil:

I'll see if I can siphon off a settler and a couple spare units.

No mention of the free tech we get since we're scientific - that sounds reasonable to me.

An interesting idea for Liz-baiting. You mean attack when english troops are just W of the empty town? How many spears on mountains - 3 or 8? It may work a few times. We should consider declaring war on her first to avoid having her join the attack against Russia.

Sorry it took so long guys, had a nice storm roll through and knock out my net access for a couple hours. Hmm, starting and ending my log with an apology, not good.

OK – let’s see what kind of mess I can cause here ;)

MM check – fire unnecessary clown in 02. There are a LOT of citizens working unimproved tiles. We need more workers whenever feasible. Although we have 13 already, we have a lot of rough land to improve. Change 11 to galley, that’ll be hurried soon.

Diplo – Liz has Monarchy, and she’s not dealing. We have Math over everyone.

Military – Bulgar tribes near 15. We are the supreme military power.

IHT – Start moving troops into positions. Notice that the reg spear in Odessa is injured. :hmm:

Hit enter.

IT – 01 sword -> spear.

330 bc (1) – Bulgar encampment dispersed. The worker irrigating grassland near 06 finishes. :smoke: Calmly biding my time ….

IT – 02 sword -> spear. 08 warrior -> warrior. 14 warrior -> spear.

310 bc (2) – Barb appears near 09, send a reg sword for promotion hunting.

IT – 07 sword -> spear.

290 bc (3) – Sword gets promotion. Finally upgrade 4 vet warriors in 08. Very soon now. We connect our incense. Oh, and Liz and Cathy both have Monarchy and Republic now. We can get either for basically our entire kingdom. Yeah, right.

270 bc (4) – One more turn of positioning.

IT – Paris completes the Pyramids.

250 bc (5) – Its go time. :D Call up Cathy and demand Republic. It was worth a shot, at least. Declare and move three stacks into position. Find more barbs east of 09.

IT – 02 spear -> library. 04 sword -> worker. Russians are building all available wonders.

230 bc (6) – whip the galley in 11. Tbilisi: elite warrior wins vs vet warrior (-2), Tbilisi burns. Vet warrior disperses angle camp and promotes. Sverdlovsk: vet sword dies, but rl reg spear. Vet sword flawless vs rl spear, autoraze. Our lone reg warrior, deep in enemy territory, discovers that the GH is still there. Wanna take bets on barbs? Odessa: vet sword dies but rl reg spear. Vet sword rl, but wins, autoraze. We also garner two workers that were formerly a Russian settler.

IT – I wait for a counterattack that doesn’t materialize. 08 warrior -> worker. 11 galley -> galley. 13 barracks -> warrior.

210 bc (7) – Our warrior disturbs some angry Burgundian workers. I swear the ai left that hut because it knew there were only barbs in it. On second thought, did we find any other GH’s at all? I send the galley NW. I know that’s probably the wrong way, but I can see some coast in the fog up there. Our troops move towards Minsk, Moscow, and Kiev.

IT – The barbs from the hut move on . 01 sword -> library. 03 settler -> worker. 05 sword -> sword. 07 spear -> worker. 15 warrior -> library.

190 bc (8) – Moving into position again.

IT – Our galley hold off a barb galley. Barbs appear near 09. 09 spear -> library.

170 bc (9) – Minsk: vet sword rl and wins vs reg spear. Vet sword flawless loss and promotes reg spear. Vet sword redlines and wins vs vet spear. Minsk is ours. Starts worker. Kiev: Vet sword wins and promotes vs reg spear. Vet sword flawless vs reg spear. Kiev falls, along with the settler hiding there. Cathy will talk now, but we’re not there yet.

IT – 02 spear -> library. 04 worker -> worker. 07 worker -> sword.

150 bc (10) – Battle of Moscow: Vet sword dies vs reg spear (-1). Reg sword wins and promotes vs reg spear (-1). Vet sword wins and promotes vs 2 hp spear (-1). Moscow is ours.

Well, our troops are a bit spread out, but can easily be reassembled in a matter of a couple of turns. Cathy will give us Republic, Monarchy, and 1 city for peace. I say we press on, and leave her with only one city. For that matter, I was thinking that we may want to start spewing settlers again. After all, land = score. Liz certainly needs to be stunted. If we wait much longer, it may turn into a real battle royal. I realized a bit too late that I should have switched our research to currency or construction. It never occurred to me we’d be getting the techs for peace. :blush: sorry, guys.


Firaxis score - 385

>>>SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Alamo_SG002_BC0150_01.SAV)

The old Russian empire:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM.JPG

[dance] [dance] [dance] I likes them turns!

The Russians have wonder-built themselves into extinction. I agree on the settlers, but we need to make sure we have enough of a force to deal with Lizzy ASAP. Her response will be sharper than Cathy's, although I still expect pretty weak.

A weak civ has build the pyramids for us. I like.

I hope the civs on the other continents will be strong enough to build the UN for us one day, because the guys on our continent will be going the way of the Maya very soon.

I think our military steamroller is going to move very quickly. We may want to reassess where we want the FP, taking into account English and French lands that will soon be ours.

All we need is a leader to rush our FP and the pace is really going to pick up. I expect we will need to build cheap libraries when possible, because we will be doing a lot of self research this game.

Yeah, I actually started building a couple of cheap libraries for that eventuality.

I'm thinking Coventry or Canterbury would be a good centralized location, on some good land, for our FP.

Here's a thought I had: It will be a while before we have to worry about anyone settling on our island, right? I mean, if we were close enough for a galley to cross, I imagine we'd have seen one by now. So what I'm thinking is that we try to set up a milking setup for ourselves while we're waiting for the appropriate techs. We destroy Liz and Joan, finish off Cathy, and settle everything in sight. Our score will skyrocket.

Sounds like a great plan to me! Given the weakness of our foes, I think you are right that we can start settling and building a little milking infrastructure while maintaining our military press. Those cheap libraries will come in handy in all our core cities, too.

For milking, I think land and happy people are the two biggest contributors to score. I know that is the case with the Firaxis score, but I am not positive about Jason score. If that is true for Jason, we will need to get out as many settlers and workers as we can, but keep our military needs as priority #1. There are three major improvements vital to any good milking: Granaries, Aqueducts (where needed) and Marketplaces. The granaries we can take care of by taking the Pyramids ASAP, and the growth boost that will give us should allow us to build the others quickly.

Could you please take care of all this on your first turn, Alamo? I am tired of waiting.

Could you please take care of all this on your first turn, Alamo? I am tired of waiting.

:rotfl:

Patience grasshopper. When you can snatch the pebble from my palm, you are ready to leave the monastery. :lol:

Hahaha. I hear oh Siddhartha. I am calm now. Your turns awakened my impatient inner warmonger.

You've really gotta stop that , BF. My boss keeps walking in here wondering why I'm laughing at my desk.

Whether I should be playing on the forums or doing my work is an entirely different story ....

Ah yes, the seductive teat of the forums: I know it well.

But I will stop, as there's nothing worse than a hovering jefe.

Nice bit of conquest, SesnOfWthr. I will pick it up late tonight.

The barb-farming is working out well, though we didn't exactly plan it that way.

Our score keeps looking better all the time. I wish the other teams would hurry up and submit...

It is optimistic to assume no contact until navigation. I am always paranoid about settler incursions. We should settle as much as practical while the land is free.

Warmongers we may be, but we want to be a respectable state, remember? We should not eliminate anyone. We will need some solid allies to win the variant, since we should be in a position to win a vote before we even get the UN. If we are not the odds-on favorites then we risk diplomatic humiliation. If we take them down early and then feed them then they should be gracious by modern times.

We need to keep Cathy as a pet, nestled safely within our borders so we can protect her from the modern war for the UN. Sevastopol looks like a good place for the capital-state of Russia. We can take all the other cities and leave her there. It looks like she won't even be able to build a settler from there, so we won't have to blockade the town.

Here is the Jason Scoring page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/score.shtml)

Basically it tries to weight each victory condition fairly and measures against a well-milked performance.

A couple of things:

First we don't need to play nice as we're allowed to diplo dogpile, remember? A few well placed bribes right before the vote can do wonders ...

Also, I realize that the Jason system tries to negate the benefits of milking, but it negates the benefit of milking for hundreds of years AFTER victory is possible. It will not depreciate a well played milk run vs. a normal run, provided victory condition and end date are approximately equal.

I would only keep Cathy around, potentially, for the free techs she'll get at the beginning of each age. We gift her up to the new age, trade for her tech, and ignore her for another thousand years. Of course, that's provided they didn't alter the game so that every civ gets the same free tech .....

nice job sesn.
it looks like we are progressing well

Are we avoiding the alliance at UN vote exploit? Admittedly, it is super exploitive, but it seems to be allowed. The exploit I refer to involves declaring war on the largest civ on the turn before the UN is built, and pulling everyone into war with them. In this scenario foregn relations are a non-issue. We can elliminate and/or go to war with whomever we wish, whenever we wish, as we really only need two strong AIs in order to hasten our research to the modern age.

If we are not using the exploit, then we will have to change a number of things about our behavior. For instance, we can't raze or autoraze any more cities, ever. I think there is an article in the War Academy on honorable diplomacy victories.

$0.02 re: diplo dogpile.

While I find this exploit distasteful and would not use it in one of my own games, or normal SG's, this is a special case. In a competition such as this, I don't think it is wise to handicap ourselves in such a way, especially since this is a well-known exploit that will be used by other teams as it has been explicitly allowed. Our only goal is to have a higher score here. Although we may score ego points for doing it right, I don't think there will be an award for "most ego points garnered". Maybe I'm a bit too competitive for my own good, but one of the reasons I joined the SGOTM was to win. If the vote goes against me, then I will certainly honor the wishes of the team, but I am STRONGLY advising against the moral route in this situation.

use the exploit more flexability is helpful

What about the first vote? Whoever builds the UN will have the option of calling for a vote. In that case it would be nice to know you have a few people in your corner.

The other civs may be happily building and forming friendly alliances, so we may face WW against all of them to get the UN.

The loss of 3 town sites will not hurt, considering we will probably have 1/2 the world.

The variant is to win the vote, not control the UN. Also, I don't think a vote can be called on the first turn of owning it (I could be wrong on this). As soon as it is built, we sign all the appropriate MA's. Done deal.

For the record, I'm not arguing about the three city sites, I'm arguing because of the razing of cities. Autorazes, while basically beyond our control, count the same as a voluntary raze.

I'm not sure how the AI works, but when I build the UN the turn finishes with the city updates then the vote dialog appears and I must choose before continuing.

If we cannot compete with the builder on the turn it is built then we may be toast.

There may not be an option to MPP/MA before completion, either, because more than one may be building the UN at once (not to mention MGL rushing).

My turn so far:

In the beginning...

At war with Russia - Moscow and Kiev in resistance - Moscow just captured.

One barb camp mapped, another near 09. English warriors are moving to hunt in our barb area - another camp?

Researching Repub, but can get that from Cathy.

4 warriors left, but I don't think they will be upgraded soon.

Liz is 3 techs from pikemen.

A settler moves towards r=8 spot.

150BC(1) - Switch research to Currency, Lux/Sci 10/60. Number the captured cities.

IT - Moscow riots after 3 resistors quelled. 2 more barb boats approach. Barb horseman attacks - no loss.

130BC(2) - Marcomanni camp spotted. Move troops into play. Vet sword follows English warriors. Switch 12 to spear. Galley retreats.

IT - English start colossus.

110BC(3) - 01 builds Lib, starts horseman for barb patrol. 08 builds worker, starts spear. 14 builds spear, starts worker. Moscow still rioting - one resistor left and 7 garrison - it better not flip! Rush worker in Kiev.

IT - Fend off barb horseman. Kyoto builds GL. :(

90BC(4) - Kiev builds worker, starts spear. 03 builds worker, starts sword. 12 builds spear - starts sword. Moscow pacified - rush a worker then library to get some culture.

70BC(5) - 19_Frankfurt founded. Galley safe at home. At least 2 more barb camps up N.

IT - London builds Hanging Gardens.

50BC(6) - 01 builds horseman, starts sword. 04 builds worker, starts sword. Moscow rushes worker. 6 troops at the door at Vladistock.

IT - Oops! Forgot starvation at Moscow - oh well, delay worker - size 1 now.

30BC - Elite Sword attacks Vladistock - BARBAROSSA appears! Vladistock falls! Victorious unit renamed Barbarossa's Bandits. :smug:

What should I do with this newfound wealth? FP in Moscow? How about near the gold mountain down SE?

Woo hoo!

I definitely think he should be used for the FP, but I am not sure about Moscow. Our continent is large, and we would be overlapping our two cores if we put it there. I think a spot further away would be better, and preferably one centrally located in good food/shield terrain. Unfortunately, I can't suggest one without being able to see the whole map. It is up to you, Alamo!

Re: Exploits and Strategies

I don't want to compete in a "most ego points garnered" race either :lol:, so I am for the exploit.

The AI builder will get the option to call a vote on the turn it builds the UN, which it may or may not take. However, we can still use the exploit most effectively, even if multiple AIs are building the UN. Alamo has a very good point on the MGL rushing. That could really catch us with our pants down!

Here is how I think we could avoid that little fiasco: before we get close to fission, we make sure there is only one strong AI left. In that manner, we know exactly who to dogpile, and we dogpile them as soon as they start a war with anyone, or on the turn before the UN is built.

So our two options, as I see them, are to 1) be honorable and get a low score but lots of "ego points" :) , or 2) Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out, gaining a very high score. No ego points, but we shall share in lots of dastardly laughter as we crush the hollow AI skulls beneath the heels of our swordsmen :satan: Mmwwaaahaaahaaa! :satan:

I think our plan should be to demolish the AIs on our continent, saving Alamo's pet city Sevastapol and perhaps one French or English city for last. As for the civs on distant shores, I think we should kill all of them except the strongest two, ASAP (anyone noticing a theme here :D ). We then kill one of them around the time of Panzers, leaving only one civ as a possible UN builder.

When we have the civs on our continent down to two small cities, we need to check to see if they have made contact with the other continent. If they have not, I would like to kill them both. If we kill the AIs on our continent before the other continent meets them, then the other AIs will not even know we are evil :mischief:. It isn't necessary to our strategy, but it would be awfully stylish.

I don't know, this is just the potential strategy that occured to me when I was supposed to be doing real work. :p I am certainly open to any others!

I just read your post more carefully. Oh no, we can't get our GA now until after Astronomy! Well, unless we take Kyoto before then...

Just use your best judgement on the FP. Sooner is much better than later, but waiting a few turns to get a much better spot could be ok.

Ok, after second thoughts it looks like FP on the headwaters of the N river is best. It is not jungle-choked and r=5 from 15. It will take the rest of my turn to set this up.

Great Wall or Sun Tsu's would be useful for GA w/Copernicus. Definitely a choice for the next MGL.

the rest of my turn...

30BC(7) - Lux/Sci to 10/50 for Currency in 4. Barbarossa scoots to Moscow. Berlin switches to settler. No resistance in 20_Vladistock, so remaining stack heads for Smolensk. Extract 25g from the Huns. Galley healed - heads for hostile waters. Moscow switched to spear.

IT - 2 barb galleys down, 1 vet galley healthy! 3 barb horsemen approach 20!

10BC(8) - 10 builds sword, starts another. 13 builds warrior, starts spear. Warrior upgraded. Barbarossa heads to 13. Elite sword attacks St.Petersberg - 1 spear down. Vet attacks - 2 spears down. Only 1 sword unused, so wait a turn. Galley heads NW again. Alemanin camp disbursed. Bulgar camp spotted. Check w/Liz - no trades.

IT - Smolensk builds Colossus! :thanx: Liz switches to Great Lighthouse.

10AD(9) - 01 builds settler, starts sword. Vet sword takes 21_Smolensk - 2 resistors - start courthouse to get some of that Colossus gold. Kill barbs and garrison 3 troops. Vet sword takes 22_St.Petersberg - 1 resistor - garrison 4 troops. Barbarossa scoots past 06. Settler heads to intended FP site. Galley heads NW. Swords head for suspected barb camp S of Sevastapol.

30AD(10) - 16 builds worker, starts library. Barbarossa trails settler. Bulgar camp cashed out. Burgundian, Gepid camps spotted. 01 switched to horseman. Reg warrior takes barb horse across river, but no promotion.

Summary: Only 2 Russian towns left. MGL heading for planned FP site. Currency in 1 turn.

Our climb in the ranks has accelerated with that little campaign. :king:

Plan: Capture Yakutsk. Leave Sevastapol and make peace FOR TECHS. Establish FP and new core with r=4. Gather troops for assault on Liz. Galley to investigate goodie hut island. Send swords to check on suspect barb camp S of Russian towns on lake shore. See if Liz will trade for Currency.

This looked like the fastest way to use the MGL to establish a second productive core. Unfortunately that means 15_Brandenberg is one square off - who said to put that there anyway? :mischief:

We have run out of German town names. How about beer names as the theme? Steinlager, Grolsch, Heffenweiss, Spaten, ...

Next up:

SesnOfWthr
Alamo
BradleyFeanor
Cuivienen
Shoe35

Sorry you only have one city to capture. If you have patience you could try for another MGL. The English campaign should be longer.

Excellent turns Alamo. That MGL is just what we were hoping for. Unfortunately, a turn or two late to grab the GL, but we'll make do.

On to England!! :ar15:

Also, my vote goes for Sun Tsu if we happen to get another leader. Doesn't expire, and the benefits are obvious.

Two more things for the next turn:

Be sure to get those techs from Cathy when you make peace. Sevastapol was building lighthouse last time I checked F7. They probably won't get it, but that will keep her busy.

That barb pond-skimmer galley just appeared on Sevastapol lake, so the unmapped barb camp must be on the S shore.

BF, you also may want to play one more turn to get us back on the right turn number. Also, can you post the score for turn 1 in your log, just for curiousity's sake? Doing some quick math, it seems team X averaged 6.8 points per turn for their last ten, while we averaged 6.66 for the last 9. I wonder how many points that tenth turn was worth? If we score at least 9 then we are closing the gap (albeit slowly). It would seem that we are keeping pace with them, the problem being that they're a full set of ten ahead, scorewise.

If Cathy does somehow manage to build the Lighthouse, then I think we may want to reconsider letting her live, or at least reconsider how long she lives. We want to be the ones to be tech brokering, not her.

Ikf I get a chance, I'll start to write up a summary later. I'll post it here for you guys to look over. We can't post in the other thread until we're out of the AA anyhow.

EDIT: Team Kuningas seems to have put a summary in the spoiler thread. At last check they were still at 350 BC, 20 truns ahead of where we are now! :eek:

I will post the score when I get home this afternoon and play one extra turn. Wow, look at all Sesn’s math! And here I thought you had proclaimed a distaste for formulas. :)

I looked at the save this morning, although I didn’t have time to play. Nice turns and nice score Alamo! I like the beer idea: the next city shall be known as Bitburger, my personal non-stout favorite.

I need input from everyone before I take my turns, because I am contemplating changing something pretty big. Alamo’s choice on the FP location was a fine one. And he was absolutely correct that it was the fastest good choice. However, I prefer Canterbury. Normally I never wait to build the FP, but I think in this case it might be worth it. Here is a comparison of the two FP locations as I see it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2AlamoNW30AD.JPG

NW spot Advantages: (see Alamo's post above also)
Inner city ring will have minimal corruption, because it will be at RCP 4 rather than 5, the RCP ring of our palace. (It is better to have the FP ring inside the palace ring)
We will have our FP in 6 turns, rather than around 25 turns, because Coventry, Newcastle, York and London need to be captured before building the FP in Canterbury. This will prevent a culture flip. This involves the loss of the 10% bonus to the OCN for around 20 turns (about 4 shields and 7 gold per turn based on our current stats, but I don’t feel this is a terrible loss).We also will not have to wait for the next leader.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2AlamoCanterbury30AD.JPG

Canterbury Advantages:
Surrounding terrain is fantastic: BGs, FPs, and wheats in the first ring, and all that plus cows in the second and third.
RCP at 5 already in place (except one city at 6), and the second ring is half RCP 8 and half 9.
The cities in the area are already established, so the region will be productive sooner.
Gives us second and third rings rather than just one and a half, so we will get the benefits for many more of our cities (15+ verses about 8).
We may also get some of the benefit of the Colossus in Smolensk.

Options
If we want the FP in Canterbury, then the current leader could go into an army (to help with the war and also increase our chances for more leaders), or he could build the Lighthouse in 11_Stuttgart. I prefer the Army, because we will most likely get at least one more leader in the war with England, probably two or three with the Heroic Epic.

The only drawback I see in the Canterbury location is the miniscule possibility of not getting another leader soon. I say miniscule because we already have many elite troops, and we will have numerous battles with the English. Troops must be consolidated on my first turns, and I intend to position them on the English frontier. When we declare war, that should enable us to get many elite wins against the unfortified English troops trying to reach us. If you guys think the risk of no leader is too great, but do want Canterbury as our FP, then I could hang on to our leader.

So basically I need an answer from everyone on one question: What do you want me to do with the leader (build an army, keep him for Canterbury, build a FP in the northwest or build the Lighthouse).


I noticed two other things when glancing at the game. 1) Cathy will give me Republic and her last city for peace, so I plan to take it. Monarchy is useless to us and we will have currency next turn. So on the off chance that she gets construction, I could still trade for it. 2) The huge barbarian uprising may occur during my turns, because someone will go to the next age soon. If I can unhook the iron so we can spend our cash on upgrades, I will. I don’t think our border towns will be able to repel the invasion of horsemen, so we may as well spend our money before they take it from us.

I bet that Liz will get Great Lighthouse, but we can surely take it from Cathy if necessary. A couple more galleys would help determine if there are ocean tiles to hop.

Team Kunningas must be peacefully expanding and tech-trading w/the neighbors. Not a bad strategy to get to UN quickly, but I'm not sure of the end-game strategy there.

We're not that far off. If we would have cranked up the Sci instead of sword upgrades then we would be there. The barb farming is definitely good for the treasury. That's a good reason for a slower expansion.

Edit: Comments on above post.

Looking at Canterbury it does look remarkably good for FP, but it would take several battles to secure. We would miss the chance for another MGL in those battles. The army would be fun, but we would not have time or shields to spare for the Heroic Epic. Lighthouse can be built by Liz or Cathy, not that it is critical.

How about rushing a palace in Caterbury with another MGL? We could use Barbarossa to rush the FP in one of our cities now. You could then try that elite warrior next to Yakutsk.

About an uprising: We can put several troops on patrol to beat the barbs down before the turn of the age. Only existing camps go postal in an uprising. I would prefer to spend $$ rush improvements in the corrupt cities once we get to Republic.

Did our science ever actually get turned down? I think it has been close to max the whole game.

Shoe35 did a bunch of upgrades, I believe. We were slow on republic those turns.

BTW, what is OCN? I still cannot make sense of this:

This involves the loss of the 10% bonus to the OCN for around 20 turns ...

Ok, thinking about it some more I decide that Caterbury would be ok for FP, if we march to it first, pacify it quickly, and rush the FP.

Flipping can be avoided by a large garrison to quell resistors, rushing down the population once pacified, and building something with culture, like a FP. Building a library with the rush would be even better.

We would have to keep a strong garrison and defend it from counter-attack, of course. Marching on London next would eliminate the culture threat.

We would miss 3-6 turns of combat opportunities.

I did lower science to upgrade military. (sorry if that messed us up.)

not sure what we should rush but I don't think that we should hold onto the MGL
if we decide on Canterbury, either use alamo's strat or rush the fp with the next MGL

long term I think that Canterbury is the better choice for the FP

That military upgrade was critical to our newly aquired territory, so I am thrilled you did everything you did.

My vote would have to go for Canterbury also.

For the MGL, I hold to the idea of rushing the FP with him. We can position our troops two tiles due east of Canterbury. Declare, and move into striking range the first turn, and take the city the next turn. We can try to get some vet promotions while taking the city. Obviously wouldn't waste elite tries while taking the city. As soon as it falls, start the starvation and rush the FP. Then move on to the next target when the city is secure. This way we only lose one round of fighting for leader chances.

EDIT: For the record, Shoe, my research gaffe was worse. I left research down, but didn't switch to currency even though I should have realized that we'd get republic from a peace treaty. Bah, que sara sara (sp?)

Starvation is not the only way to reduce population quickly. There is a tricky way to hurry production multiple times, once the resistors are quelled.

You start by rushing something small, like a worker. Then move to the next bigger shield cost and rush again, and so on until you run out of population or build what you want. It is a bit of an exploit, but nobody wanted to ban it when I mentioned it in the GOTM forum awhile back.

Don't forget that there are a couple of elite troops near Yakutsk. You could delay peace and try your luck with those, since it is a long walk to the English front.

The science progress is fine. We will probably move ahead once the military actions are done and all available land is settled. The cash flow from the barb farming and conquest will keep us on track in the meantime.

@ Alamo: OCN = Optimal City Number. The FP raises this by 10% I believe. The OCN is a big factor in the corruption calculation for all cities, and the higher it is the better. It is also dependent on mapsize and difficulty level. I don't remember the entire corruption formula because it is a long one, but Alexman discusses it thoroughly in his War Academy article "Everything about Corruption"
I will also see about taking Yakut with our Elites after the FP rush.

Alrighty guys, thanks for the feedback. By universal concensus I shall use the leader for the FP in Canterbury. It will take me a few turns to get enough troops in position since I can't deplete Lizzy's forces in the open terrain.
Once I get the city I will rush whatever I can, a library, temple or barracks probably. As soon as the resistors are quelled I will rush the FP. Is that the process you recommend Alamo?

Since I have to heavily garrison the city to prevent flips, it will be a while before I can take any others I fear. Definitely not London. I will try to amass troops for Cuivienen.

I thought with this large a culture difference (double ours), I needed to move all the English borders away from Canterbury and also to push the English capitol further away, but I am no expert on culture flips. Given that fact, I have a few questions for you Alamo:

How many troops do you think I will need to keep in there before and after the FP is built?
Can I rush the FP before the population is down to one?

Thanks!

P.S: If you guys don't hear from me within a few days, it is because Canterbury flipped after I rushed the FP and I committed suicide.

Here is how I would do it. It should take 5-8 turns.

1a. Take Canterbury, get 2-5 resistors.
1b. Garrison as many troops as possible (at least as many as resistors)
----
2. Resistance ends in 1-3 turns, possibly some starvation.
----
3. Rush a library, using the bootstrap process if necessary. This should reduce the population to 3 max. Starve if more than 1 pop left. :whipped:
----
4. Rush FP. Starve if still not pop 1.
----
5. Reduce garrison to 3-5 troops after cultural borders expand.
----
Extra credit: Bring some loyal german workers along to join the city after the population is culled. :worship:

To minimize risk, be sure to move Barbarossa in after resisters are quelled, at stage 3.

In the short term the troops hold the town. Reducing population makes this MUCH easier. The library and FP will give culture, which will greatly reduce the chance of flip over time. Adding loyal german subjects will also help.

I use to loose towns all the time until I discovered the benefits of 'ethnic cleansing'. The effect of foreign citizens seems to be exponential - double them and the risk quadruples!

Of course, OCN. I figured it could be optimal city something. We will blow out the city number sooner or later, oh well.

Excellent. Those specific details are most appreciated!

30 AD, turn 0 Pre-turn stats that might be handy for anyone writing a summary :)

Score 445 (First place; England second with 414)
22 cities, population 62
We own the colossus.
1 Settler, 19 native workers (nice job everyone!), 11 Russian slaves, 4 warriors, 15 spears, 27 swords, 1 horse, 1 galley, 1 leader.
Ivory (4), Incense, Spices, Horses and Iron are connected.

Pre-turn analysis
Hastings will probably get the lighthouse if an overseas civ doesn't. We are being eaten alive by corruption, but the move to Republic is not feasible with our current military and in view of the fact that we will be at war for a while.

I whip the galley in 11_Stuttgart and a Library in 05_Munich and 06 Heidelburg (they were working jungle tiles and couldn’t grow anyway).

The English have horses and swords hooked up: this could get ugly. I only have 10 swords that can reach the battlefield in 8 turns. There are no spears in range. Looking at the mountains around Canterbury, we must have spears fortified in them in order to have a chance at holding the city. A few cats would be nice but that is a pipe dream at this point.
I will have to pop rush some regular spears in the nearby Russian cities to have a chance at this. Lizzy is weak compared to us, but the logistic situation is making me doubt a quick strike on Canterbury. I decide to investigate it for safety’s sake, and discover we have no Embassy. I establish the Embassy (53g) and investigate Canterbury (80g):

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2xAlamoLondon30AD.jpg


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2xAlamoCanterbury30AD.jpg

Ok, so maybe my fears were unfounded. Her swords will be appearing when I attack though.

I trade World and Territory Maps to Liz and Joan and pick up 8 g and an up-to-date map of their road network. Rush a spear in 21_Smolensk. The others will have to wait for unrest to settle or pop growth.

IBT Currency > Construction, due in 10. -1 gpt. Canterbury’s borders expanded again. It will take a bit longer to get there now.

50 AD, 1 Send settler southward to establish another RCP 8 town that is available thanks to Sesn and Alamo's handling of the Russians. Move toward barbs and Canterbury. Rush a barracks in 12_Bonn (totally corrupt city at the moment). MM a few cities for production.

70 AD, 2 Pilfer a few spears from our core to help down south. MM. Disperse a camp.

IBT Spot an English settler pair heading for the spot I picked for the city.

90 AD, 3 I move a sword into position to attack the settler pair next turn. I had planned to wait three more turns until I had more troops in position, but two more workers would be nice.

110 AD, 4 The settler pair moved where I thought they would, so I declare war and take Lizzy’s settler. I kill one of her warriors in the north but our sword is redlined. I think Joan was getting a bit squirrelly, because she just paid 20g for permission to fight in our war on the English. :) Hire a clown in Berlin because it lets me lower lux to 0 and doesn't hurt unit production.

130 AD, 5 Kill a Brit warrior and disperse two camps. Rush a library.

150 AD, 6 A lone, regular Archer emerges from Canterbury to kill the 15 units we have approaching. Good luck buddy. :rolleyes: A vet sword attacks it and promotes. Kill one camp, but a vet sword loses attacking a barb horse in another. Send the galley by the hut island on a suicide mission.

170 AD, 7 English swords appear in the mountains around Canterbury. Our galley lives, send him deeper into the blue. Found 23_Bitburger. Kill two English swords with only 1HP of damage to us.

190 AD, 8 A barb galley attacks ours and dies. Our suicide galley sinks. I see at least three English spears and one sword moving around Canterbury—two spears are leaving. :rolleyes: Disperse two barb camps. Attack a Reg English sword with a vet and we lose. Lower science because Construction is due next turn. I think I have all the barb camps except one for the end of this turn, just in case someone else is in the Middle Ages.

IBT We enter the next age and get Engineering for our free tech. Start Feudalism at max, due in 13. We are way ahead of our AIs technologically. Boy, these AIs are some backward #$%@s!

210 AD, 9 Attack Warwick with one sword, he flawlessly goes elite and kills the spear inside. That was just the appetizer. Canterbury Time: :ninja:
First vet sword takes 1HP off a spear but dies.
Second vet sword redlines and kills spear.
Third vet sword kills injured spear, 1HP damage.
A horse kills the redlined sword inside and we take the city. 6 resistors. Kill an English sword.

Spot another hut and find that the teeny Russians got Construction. I move 7 units into Canterbury, put three in the surrounding mountains, and put the citizens on a starvation diet.

Rush a library in 15_Brandenburg.

IBT An English sword attacks one of our spears on a mountain, promotes us and dies quite painfully. groucho

230 AD, 10 A sword attacks a barb horse on a mountain, kills it but redlines. Two resistors left in Canterbury. Pop down to 7. I send our other galley into the deep blue. I take Warwick with our lone sword and get a worker, but notice that an English sword is poised to take the city back next turn. Possibly... Disperse two barb camps. Joan finally has Republic, but I am waiting to get it from the Russians for peace. Liz will talk peace but is only willing to give 1 city. Maybe she will feel differently after we assimilate her core.

250 AD, 11 (extra turn to get back on track) Our galley sinks, but another can be rushed on this turn. Our sword in Warwick redlines but wins. Still one resister in Canterbury. :aargh: 6 Pop. left. We lose two swords attacking English swords. They lose three along with an archer. I kill a Russian Archer that popped out of Yakutsk.

Plan: 1) Build the FP in Canterbury with our leader, but first we must A) Eliminate the last resistor, B) rush something to get the pop down, C) starve it to 1 if necessary, and D) build the FP and leave the city with 5 troops for a garrison once the borders expand.
2) Take Yakutsk with our elite troops as soon as we use the leader—but there is an elite warrior near the city that needs to step back to heal. Then get all Cathy’s techs for peace.
3) Eliminate huts as well as you can. The barbarian uprising will happen very soon.
4) Fortify Warwick. I was sending a sword down from the north: hope he can make it in time.
5) The galley in Stuttgart can be rushed this turn.
6) I was sending the two settlers to the spots on the map below, one is RCP 8 from the capitol, and one will be RCP 5 from our FP.

The English cities on the front will probably be fortified by three units, the cities behind them by only two. Once Canterbury falls, you will have 14 units to wreak havoc upon them. I started building lots of Markets, libraries and such on my turns, but feel free to veto them if you think you will need more military. Beware of pop rushing in Russian cities (except 20_Vladivoistok): I have already made them quite unhappy.

We are cutting into the English culture lead nicely. Our score is 527, the save is HERE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Alamo_SG002_AD0250_01.SAV), and I am now 6 hours older than when I started my turns. :sad:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2xAlamoSettlers250AD.jpg

Looks good, BF. This continent will soon be ours!! :evil:

Interesting Joan wanted to join the fight so bad. I imagine she was looking for some easy territory gains while we bore the brunt of the attack. Oh well, let her deplete her forces now, her time will come soon enough.

Do we have any troops in the area of those English coastal towns? It would be niceto rush a suicide galley to send from the other side of the continent.

Don't forget to gift the Russians up after peace has been made. Will be intersting to see what tech they get.

I'll have a summary for review soon.

TEAM ALAMO

I have been nominated by Team Alamo (well, volunteered to be more accurate) to write up the summary for the spoiler thread. The beginnings of our world domination started thus:

In 4000 bc we settled Berlin where the settler stood. There was much discussion about a possible move, but afetr a scouting move with the worker, we settled in that spot. Of course we were happy with how it worked out, as the wheat and game gave us the opportunity for a four turn factory.

Our initial build order could probably be questioned by some, but was reasoned out very logically. We decided to go warrior, warrior, worker, granary. The thinking on the worker was that if there was much jungle/forest to be worked as the start implied, that the extra worker would start to reap the rewards about thirty or so turns later.

Our initial research path was also predetermined. We started full on Pottery, learning it in 3350 bc, and then went to IW. We decided that it was important to know where the iron was early, and also figured that, as a second level tech, it would garner us more trading opportunities.

After surveying the surrounding land, we decided to use an RCP approach with rings at 5 and 8. This allowed us seven viable sites at RCP5, and six sites at RCP8. The mountains everywhere really screwed with rcp strats to the SW.

In 2230bc we met the first foreigner, an English warrior. At that time, they were up CB and Alphabet. They also had four cities to our one.

In 2190bc we found our second city. This is pretty late by normal standards, but we had not found anyone nearby, and we also built a granary and tried to get growth so we could get the factory running ASAP. At this point, the factory was not functioning, but it was getting close.

In 2070bc we discover Iron Working, and realize our fears of being iron deprived are unfounded. Research is set to Writing.

1870bc was a busy year. On this turn, our settler factory is ready for use, although there was some miscommunication about how it works. We also met Russia in this year. When we met them, they were up CB and Masonry.

Somewhere around these dates we realized that even though the barbs were set to raging, the game had been modded to remove the GH from our area. We know they weren’t removed entirely, as we found one sandwiched between English and Russian lands later.

In 1500 bc we discovered writing. Set research to Polytheism. As of this date, we were at tech parity. Looking through the turnlogs, I can’t see when we met the French, but they were involved in trades on this date.

From 1500bc on, we spewed a settler approximately every four turns. The factory was up and running, but there was an instance or two for each of us that we forgot to MM on the second turn of the cycle, thus making it a five turn factory. FWIW, we had four cities at this point.

There were no noteworthy specifics for quite a few turns here. During our expansion we were able to claim spices, incense, and ivory. We secured on source of iron, and two more can be had if we want them. We also built a city on the horses by the small lake NW of starting position.

Our research order went Lit, Math, Currency and Construction. With, of course, trades along the way to pick up the others.

One of the more lengthy discussions that was had in our thread was what level of aggressiveness we should be thinking of using. While I won’t detail our specific plans, those of you that know me could guess that I was happy when we decided that Cathy’s lands were poor and pitiful, and could be worked much better by someone who was not a computer. :hammer:

I personally had the honor of calling her up and informing her of my intentions. In 250bc I declared war. By the time Barbarossa appeared in 30bc, the war was over, for all intents and puposes. Although the Russians live, their lands now belong to the Fatherland.

In the year of our lord, 190anno domini, our diligent scientists finally work out the final details of Construction. For our free tech ….. well, I guess that’s for the next spoiler, right? ;)

Out stats at this date:
25 cities, score 527.
We own the Colossus, and by a quirk of fate missed the GL by a turn.
We have 80 units, including 20 native workers, 15 slaves, and 27 swords.
We have ivory, incense, spices, iron, and horses all connected.


A note for the team: I intentionally left out details of the English offensive, although they technically started before construction was discovered.

If you see any errors/omissions, please point them out.

Germany is called the Fatherland, right? For some reason it makes sense, though most countries are referred to as the Motherland.

Assuming there are no complaints, I’ll post in the spoiler thread later.

Originally posted by SesnOfWthr
Do we have any troops in the area of those English coastal towns? It would be nice to rush a suicide galley to send from the other side of the continent.

There are no forces on their way at the moment, but this is a wonderful idea. Those cities will be weakly defended, so a small force of 3 swords and a horse from our core should be able to take them all quickly.

Originally posted by SesnOfWthr
Don't forget to gift the Russians up after peace has been made. Will be intersting to see what tech they get.

Under most circumstances I would agree on this. However, if the Russians draw Feudalism, it will result in the rest of our war against England, and possibly our upcoming battle for the French Pyramids, being faught against Pikemen.

I would not gift Cathy to the MA until York and London are taken and the English Iron is pillaged. That shouldn't take long, because four swords and two spears are three moves away from York.

Fortunately, Joan's iron is currently unconnected, and it will take many turns for her to hook it up. It might not be a bad idea for the next player to try to slip a horse down there in case she does get it connected. Then we could pillage it on the turn we declare.

I would not be surprised if we are ready to become a two-core Republic on Shoe's turn, and ready for the Push for the Pyramid on yours. 3...2...1--Prepare for score blastoff! :mischief:

You are correct on using Fatherland.

The summary looks great, and leaving out our English war was rightly done! I am glad you mentioned the :aargh: moment of missing the GL by one turn. But hey, we will get the Oracle instead right? Isn't that just as good? :rolleyes:

By the way, I left a governor on in Warwick to keep it from rioting when the resistor is quelled. Be sure to turn him off afterward. Our workers are toiling close to Canterbury because it has a fur luxury. We need to get that hooked up.

Quick comments:

Looking good, but a bit more combat that I expected before using Barbarossa. The score is still going in the right direction.

More barbs near 15.

The camp S of Sevastapol was cleared, right?

21 will get german citizen next turn - hopefully will not flip - you could garrison another troop just in case.

I would not starve Canterbury this turn - need enough pop to whip the library.

Warwick is in jeopardy - maybe it should be abandoned if both warrior and archer approach.

We should make huge score gains in the next four player turns due to the second core, the republic and the pyramids if we get them quickly.

I agree on Warwick, I don't know what I was thinking attacking it with one sword. The camp south of Sevastapol was cleared, but another will likely appear.

We do need to starve Canterbury again. It only costs 2 pop to whip our cheap libraries (rush barracks, rush library), so we will still have a pop of 3 after starving and rushing.

For Warwick: If the units approach stacked, I would attack the first and take my chances defensively for the second. The stack prerequisite is so that we don't actually leave the city. With any luck, the computer will rate the archer as the higher defensive probability, leaving only the warrior to attack.

Since no one has pointed out any glaring oversights in my summary, I'll go post to the spoiler thread.

EDIT: Summary posted. When you look at the first summary, be warned that the French are blue on the minimap shown. I had to do a double take until I got to the appropriate post.

Looks good. good turns BF

Alamo, great jobon the write up,
I only noticed 1 typo

Out stats at this date:

I also need to be skipped this weekend
I will be busy from tonight thru Monday.
I have relatives in from out of town.
I look forward to seeing how far along we are next tuesday.
I will check here from time to time.

stay the course.

great job

See ya Shoe. Sorry you will miss your turn!

Looks like the AIs for team Kunningas and Xteam were better researchers than ours. I wanted to do minimum research like they did, but now that all is done I am glad we didn't. If we had, we would still be in the ancient age.

Team Kunningas has a fascinating build pattern. I bet they build the FP in either Leipzig or Koningsberg and are planning a palace jump to a distant location. Xteam probably did something equally creative with their city placement.

It looks like both teams are upgrading warriors rather than building swords. That means they certainly have more granaries, libraries and markets than we do. Hopefully we will be able to rectify that soon with our second core and the pyramids. Contact with the other continent would help tremendously too.

I am shocked that our delay in getting the settler factory going did not hurt us more than it did. We are quite behind in tech, but our two cores should allow us to do four turn research for the rest of the game once they are running. Hopefully, that will allow us to catch up.

the team I'm more worried about is TeamX. They used two 40 turn gambits, which allowed them to stockpile money for 80 turns, and they still entered the Middle Ages approx. 20 turns ahead of us.

Conversely, we shut science down for approx. 20 turns and had it basically maxed out for the rest of the time.

You're right that they probably have more buildings than we do at this point. So, do we now try to rush research to catch up, or slow research so we have the money to rush buy things. Either way is not a wonderful solution. In order to maximize any milking run, we need certain building in our cities ASAP. The best way to get those building will be buying them, which will not be feasable if we push for four turn research. On the flip side, if we want the cash, we'd have to slow research and that would put off the finish date, thus negating any milking acticity we manage. I suppose the best solution would be tomeet the other landmass, and hope someone is behind in tech, but has a big bankroll.

I'm not optimistic about the other continent being behind in tech, though. They built the GL in what, 200bc or so? Since lit is generally very slowly researched by the ai, and the GL probably took 40+ turns to build, unless they rushed it with a GL, this does not bode well. :(

Agreed. We do have tough choices. We should definitely pop rush any libraries we can, while we can.

I would prefer to research moderately and raise enough cash to put libraries in most core cities and as many courts as possible. Then crank research, maximizing our library investment, and let the other courts, markets and aqueducts be built naturally. Thank god the Pyramids are on our continent. If we are far over the unit limit when we switch to Republic, we can disband some of our swords to hurry buildings along.

Sorry, SesnOfWthr, I did not get a chance to read your summary closely. If it got past the mod, then it must be ok. :p

Warwick might withstand attack - will the sword have 3 or 4 hp before attack? Reinforcement is 1 tile behind, but it would autoraze now if we lost and did a counter-assault.

We can all read and participate in the first spoiler now. [party]

Next up:

SesnOfWthr
Alamo
BradleyFeanor
Cuivienen
Shoe35 (skip next turn)

Here's a summary of the to-do list for the next player:

1. Build FP in Canterbury

1-a Quell Resisters
1-b Hurry Library
1-c Hurry Barracks
1-d Use Barbarossa to rush FP

2. Try for another MGL, then peace with Russia for loot

2-a Step elite warrior back to heal.
2-b Wait for FP to be rushed with Barbarossa
2-c Attack Yakutsk with elite sword and warrior
2-d Make peace for all techs, gold, towns (Russia down to 1 town!)

3. Escort settlers to new town sites - see bradleyfeanor's post

4. Continue English Campaign
4-a Defend or abandon Warwick - your call. It cannot be recaptured.
4-b Fend off counterattacks.
4-c Take Newcastle and garrison a large force (close to London)

5. Exterminate barbs - try to avoid turn-of-age uprising

6. Rush a galley and continue exploration

Is that everything?

Nice step-by-step summary Alamo. I would add only this: assemble a force of 4-5 units to capture the English port cities on the west coast.

I have some bad news, for me at least. A changing work schedule is going to take me out of town for a week. I will try to log on and play if possible, but it is unlikely. So, unless my turn comes around sometime early tomorrow, I will not be able to play until next Sunday. I hope no one is upset, but there is no way for me to avoid it.

Just when things were getting interesting too... :(

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/1SGOTM2AlamoDotMap250AD.JPG

Well, since I am stuck at work with nothing to do, I made another dotmap (pardon my artistic inability) for discussion. Not nearly as important as our war plans, but important nonetheless. Setters are currently en route to yellow dots 1 and 2. In looking more at Warwick, it is in a pretty lousy spot, and resettling that area on the red dot would put it at RCP 8. If we leave Warwick where it is, then the red dot circled in yellow would be a good new city. The green dot crowds our Colossus, but we desperately need another strong port city at RCP 8.

Once we take the nearby English and French cities and found these new ones, we will have a perfect ring of 7 cities at RCP 5/5.5, and a second ring of 6-7 cities at RCP 8/8.5. This second ring includes the powerhouses of London and Moscow. Founding any cities at a distance of 9 to 10.5 is to be avoided at all costs, because Paris, Smolensk (Colossus), Liverpool and Nottingham all fall at RCP 11/11.5. The town of Lyons is currently at distance 9.5, so if we ended up abandoning it, that would not be a terrible thing. It could then be re-founded one tile north at RCP 8 (light blue dot).

This is going to be an extremely powerful second core once we are a Republic.

The initial cities founded outside our two cores should probably be ports or located in high food/resource/luxury terrain, because these are the only valuable commodities in corrupt cities.

I'm going to have to ask for a skip on this one. I simply don't have the time to play this due to end-of-school chaos. Sorry!

No problem. Thanks for checking in.

Next up:

SesnOfWthr
Alamo
BradleyFeanor
Cuivienen
Shoe35

Give 'em a :ninja:, and then a :hammer:, followed by a :ar15: Sesn!

Another thing: You can trade Joan Wmap = Wmap+15g to get latest barb camp update - do that after a few turns.

I chose Newcastle as the next town to take because of the horses.

Team Kunigas actually got goodies from some huts. You may want to drop the horseman into the galley to try our luck on the island.

I'm here, and I got it. Play late tonight or tomorrow.

OK, I still have one turn to play, but I wanted to get some input, as this is an important turn.

1) We have an MGL, and just got Feud, any objections to Sun Tzu's?

2) Have just discovered feud, Invention next?

3) The barbs are everywhere. Should I just try to upgrade as many spears as possible to avoid losing the money?

Partial save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo_SG002_AD0340_01.SAV)

And the Barbs: (marked by red lines)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/barb1.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/barb2.JPG

I agree - Sun Tsu's, Invention, Pikemen/MI upgrades.

Also, you can try a lump sum = gpt from Joan.

We definitely needed more barb patrols :(

Edit not working for me right now...

I agree - Sun Tsu's, Invention, Pikemen/MI upgrades.

539g

14 pike = 280 now (more than 1/2, anyway)

Joan, Cathy - Wmap for 10g (generous)

Run the spear from 18 to 20 - can upgrade before barbs hit
Retreat from 21 - will loose warrior anyway
Run spear from 15 to 12(move into forest) - fortify swords outside of 15 to draw barbs

3 workers are in jeopardy - near 12 and 20.

We definitely needed more barb patrols :(

Well, I didn’t really expect to have this again so soon, but let’s see what we can get accomplished. ;)

I notice Berlin is on the first turn of its cycle. Coincidence? I think not. I’m going to start some settlers for the farther reaches.

I’m really torn on Warwick. I’m not sure it can hold as our one sword there is redlined. I think I’ll try to take the archer, then come back for the warrior after he takes the town. It will probably autoraze.

IT – Resistance ends in Canterbury. 05 horse -> horse.

260ad (1) – my sword gambit in Warwick fails to a reg archer, flawlessly. Abandon Warwick. Vet horse disperses Gepid camp. Lose vet sword to yl sword. Rush lib in Canterbury.

IT – France founds city of Grenoble to our NW. Did we give them permission to do that? On the other hand, it will be a lovely one city nation for them soon…..

270 ad (2) – I decide to rush the FP this turn. Will take two turns to rush the barracks, and I have some possible leader opportunities now.

IT – Canterbury FP -> barracks.

280 ad (3) I lose two elite swords to quirks of the RNG. One to an archer, one to a 2hp sword. Warrior disperses Phoenician encampment. Elite sword wins vs reg spear in Yakutsk. Vet sword wins and promotes vs reg spear in Brighton. Vet sword wins and promotes vs hun camp.

IT – vet and elite sword both defend successfully, both lose 1 hp. Berlin settler -> settler. 07 library -> sword.

290 ad (4) leader fishing goes very poorly in Yakutsk. An elite sword and warrior impale themselves on the same reg spear, he loses 1 and promotes. Unbelievably, Cathy still won’t give both techs and the city for peace. :hmm: I lose two more vet swords on reg spears. :mad: I’m out of close units, so I give her the peace. She gives me her kingdom, less Yakutsk. Republic, Monarchy, WM and 8g. 26_Heineken founded at yellow #1. 27_Beck’s founded at yellow #2. Settler sent to yellow #3.

IT – Lose a rl vet sword. Cologne horse -> spear.

300 ad (5) – Rush barracks in Canterbury.

IT – Canterbury barracks -> temple. Vladivostok barracks -> aque.

At this point, my computer crashes and completely powers off – not good. I’ll have to load the autosave.

300 ad (5) – rush barracks in Canterbury. Elite sword disperses Bulgar camp.

IT – We lose an elite spear to a reg sword. Canterbury barracks -> temple. Vladivostok barracks -> aque. Massive uprising near Bonn.

310 ad (6) – Apparently the uprising is a bit more widespread, as a camp that was near extinction now has 24 horses. :eek: Vet sword wins and promotes vs reg sword.

IT – One vet sword successfully defends vs reg sword, one does not. Berlin settler -> settler. Konigsberg lib -> sword. Heidelburg sword -> sword. The Japanese build the Lighthouse.

320 ad (7) – Elite sword wins but rl vs reg archer. Two vet swords win vs reg spears. Vet sword wins and promotes vs rl sword, and Newcastle falls. I find another barb stack between Cologne and Brighton. This could get ugly.

IT – We lose 2 elite horse and elite sword to barbs. All units were promoted to elite before succumbing to tide of barbs. Kiev barracks -> sword. English build GW, which certainly won’t make things any easier for us.

330 ad (8) – Finally the RNG cuts us a break with the appearance of Richtoffen. Can anyone say Sun Tzu’s? Try to shuffle troops to protect our cities from the barbs.

IT – We get Feudalism, start Invention. Leipzig market -> pike. Nuremberg sword -> sword. Hannover horse -> library.

340 ad (9) – Well. I do as Alamo suggested. I upgrade 14 spears, rush Sun Tzu’s, and pull back the warrior and workers. I also realize that I can’t sell the barracks for any gain, as the barbs are going to take whatever money we have anyhow. I gift 100g each to Joan and Cathy. It makes joan gracious and Cathy still furious. Oh well.

IT – England and France sign peace. Our troops defend successfully vs some 15 barbs, including one noble elite sword that slayed 9 himself. Smolensk was ravaged, losing our food and shields in the box, and only costing us 14g?!?!? I am seriously regretting those gifts now. :mad: Canterbury Sun Tzu’s -> temple. Stuttgart galley -> galley. We must make more contacts!

350 ad (10) – 29_Amstel founded. Elite sword wins vs reg spear. Couple wandering barbs picked off. Elite* sword fails to dislodge reg sword from mountain near Newcastle.

Well, I had a pretty rough set of turns here guys. The RNG really did a number on me, finally throwing a bone with the MGL. What’s left of our forces is split between Newcastle and Canterbury. I swear I didn’t play as poorly as the results show.

On a side note, can barracks we built still be sold once Sun Tzu’s is built? If so, wait one more turn for the barbs to clearout, and try it out. The gifts to Joan and Cathy were a well-reasoned move, but one that played out poorly. I don’t understand why each barb hitting the city only took 1 gold.

EDIT: Firaxis score: 615

>>>SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Alamo_SG002_AD0350_01.SAV)

Sounds like some good playing, SensOfWthr. It looks like we're ahead of 3 teams now.

I think the barb plunder is a percentage of your treasury, so giving away the gold decreased the amount they plundered.

The MGL for SunTzu's makes it all worthwhile. Now we just need Copernicus for a GA. Those barracks will be handy when it comes time to build panzers. We definitely can sell those barracks we built, too.

Grenoble does look like a good place for exhile, though we may need 3 battleships to protect it.

I noticed that Medieval Infantry were not available - what's up with that?

It sounds like we are running out of troops. I will probably spend most of my turn consolidating and building. If Liz shows a pikeman then I will consider making peace for now (where is her iron?).

I got it - will play tonight.

We may be ahead of some teams, but TeamX is starting to run away with it. They're 3 sets ahead of us, and we'd have to avg 200+ points per set to catch up!!

Liz has iron on the far side of London, also some not hooked up near our latest city.

Are we sure that MI are even in PTW?

MI iin PTW? Definitely!

However, the upgrade may be turned off. But we should be able to build'em....

I may try to pillage the iron.

BTW - it's a new month, so there's a new GOTM. I will refrain from playing until we finish this, unless everyone wants to take a break to play it.

Didn't notice if we could build them, but defibnitely can not upgrade them. As far as regular GOTM, I have yet to install the needed packs, but can't play between Thurs and Mon regardless, as I'm moving and will be without net access at home. So if I come up before Monday, just skip me.

Ok, we'll carry on.

I submitted the 350AD save for ya.

Ok guys and gals, let us decide what to do with our 3rd MGL. To continue this war will be a bitter war of attrition. I have the troop pipeline started again, but they have yet to trickle to the front. We could easily take a 20-turn breather to get things organized for a proper campaign.

Do we rush Leo's in 3 turns, or hold MGL for Copernicus and GA?

I propose we make peace for Monotheism, grab wonders and prepare for the GA and next campaign.

We should pre-build for Leonardo's Workshop in 04, finish researching Invention, then switch 04 to Leos, and then switch to Republic.

After anarchy we dive for Astronmy while 01 builds settlers and everyone else builds troops or libraries. By the time 20 turns are up we will close to Astronomy, have control of the barbary frontiers and have a sizable force on the English border.

Another military strategy would be to build only pikes and horses, get the GA, research Chivalry and upgrade to a killer military that can clean things up quickly while our towns build markets.

So what do y'all think?

My turn so far:

350AD Barbs on all fronts. At war with Liz. Towns build improvements, but troop numbers inadequate.

Preliminary actions:

Hurry market in 03. Hurry libraries in 10,14,16. Switch 12,15,19,23 to pike. Switch 20 to lib - will rush if it resist barb attack. Switch 22 from barracks to lib. Move pike from 17 towards 29 - redline swords face archer. Spear from 23 moves towards 17. Hurry lib in 28 - English pop reduced to 1 (using archer bootstrap).

Priorities:

1 - Hold towns against English
2 - Get more troops to English front
3 - Eliminate barb uprisings
4 - Establish barb patrols - 4 x pike+horse

IT: Y/l English sword dies attacking 28. Archer retreats from 29 - another approaches 25. Barbs move - 8 horses go to Brighton. Multiple 1g pillages of 21 - S barbs gone! :lol:

360AD(1) - 01 builds settler - starts pike. 03 builds market - starts sword. 10,14,16 build lib - start pike. 05 builds horse - starts pike. 28 builds lib - starts wall. 13 builds lib - starts sword. Move troops out of 27 to try the 1g trick on stack of 6 barb horse. Not sure where that settler was going - weathering the uprising? He'll wait for the spot 2 N of York. Spear to 17, pike to 29. Fort r/l swords. Elite takes archer at 25. Pike moves from 20 toward 21. Elite horse attacks barb to find safety, but looses across river. Spear moves from 19 to protect workers (1 turn to jungle clear). Horse from 05 to 19. 01 settler+pike sent to 12. U/g spear in 15.

IT: Barbs move, attack. Barbs retreat from Brighton. Reg spear gets promoted - moves back to 19. Loose 6g on 27 pillage. Galley survives attack unscathed. Joan sends out horse from Grenoble to poach!

370AD(2) - Sword kills barb on road near 15 - move troops out to bait barbs. Move troops back into 27 - attracting Brighton barbs? 4 more approach next turn. Hurry lib in 20. Move reg pike onto mountain next to 25 (it is 7th in culture - no chance of flip now).

IT: Loose vet sword to reg sword in 28. Barbs back to Brighton. Loose prod in 15 - attrack barbs to 15.

380AD - 02 builds pike - starts horse. 04 builds sword - starts horse. 20 builds lib - starts pike. U/g spear in 19. 02 pike towards 09. Trade Joan Wmap for Wmap+20g - no new camps. U/g spear in 11. Clear vandals. U/g spear in 17. 04 sword towards 08. Swords kill 2 barb horses near 15. Move troops out of 27 again.

IT: Y/l sword looses at 28. Loose 4g at 27. Reg pike gets to elite vs barbs at 29.

390AD(3) - 07 builds sword - starts horse. 08 builds sword - starts pike. Borders expand at 28. 19 builds pike, starts horse. Clean up barbs at 15. Put settler+pike on galley for island. Pike takes barb horse at 19 - used horses on the rest. Decide to do the vacant city gambit on the last 2 barb horses at 13. U/g spear at 26. Move reg pike to 28. 07 sword towards 13. Elite swords pluck 2 reg English archers off mountain.

IT: English reg sword takes fort reg pikeman :( Barbs attack and take pop instead of gold :(

400AD(4) - 17 builds sword - starts pike. 01 builds pike - starts horse. Took Gepid camp in front of Joan's horseman. Take barb galley. Sci/Lux to 80/0 for Invention in 5.

IT: Loose another vet sword to reg sword at 28. More barbs die.

410AD(5) - 28 builds wall - start pike. Move one elite sword into 28. Need to pillage that iron!

IT: Liz wants peace, but offers nothing but Leeds - refused for now. English swords and archers approach.

420AD(6) - Sci/Lux to 70/0 for Invention in 3. Cleared barb camp. Put settler on goodie island. Elite sword attacks reg English sword - Hengest appears! Unit renamed Hengest's Heroes :smug:

Troops take Hengest on tour of breweries in Bitberg, Heineken, Becks, Heineken, ...

Save Here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Alamo_SG002_AD0420_01.SAV)

Bear with me...

I submitted the 350AD save for ya.

Are you sure I didn't? I could have sworn I did .... :hmm:

For the MGL, I gonna throw a curveball at you. What about building an army? We could build an army now, get a couple quick victories, probably take another town or two before peace, and hurt Liz a bit more. Then we make peace, and build the HE during the 20 turns. I think you're being awfully optimistic about being close to Astronomy, including an anarchy period, in just twenty turns. Even if we get 4 turns, which isn't very likely given our number of cities, that would leave us 16 turns to research Theology, Education, Astronomy and finish off Invention. At break even research, I'd say Astronomy is 30+ turns out.

With the HE, we could have a chance at several more MGL's, especially if we cultivate longer wars (though bad for republic). I like the idea of possibly gaining Copernicus, Smith's and possibly another wonder. Though like any plan including MGL's, both it's risk and reward are potentially higher.

An Army would be fun, but we have veered from a warmonger course to a builder track, now we are caught in the middle.

It is a bit optimistic to get Astronomy soon, but we do have a few more libs and Repub would be more profitable (if we're at peace). If we save the MGL then we would be assured of a Medieval Golden Age to build courthouses, markets and universities.

The problem right now is that there aren't enough troops. The tactical situation is strained at the front, so I would heistate to put 3 swords into a 1 move/turn Army. There are a few more swords on the way, but they may be vital reinforcements by the time they get to the front. Also, we still have 3 towns w/o a defender, and we still need a southern barb patrol. An additional patrol for the SE is advisable, too.

I think the MI were removed because they were not available in vanilla civ. That means knights are the killer unit of the era. We get longbows in 3 turns, but they require escorts that we didn't pre-build. Liz probably just started researching Invention now - the war must end before we face longbows (archer u/g is probably on).

About that save: You posted a link to the save, but did not submit an official end-o-turn.

No further comment, so I'll decide by coin toss:

Heads - Army / Tails - Immediate Peace Treaty

*toss* .... Heads! Army it is. May Mars smile upon us.

Summary: English forces are hovering around 25. There are enough troops to take Coventry at the right moment in a few turns. After that, York if possible. It won't be too long until Longbows appear. We must get Copernicus for GA.

I just traded Joan for Wmap - 5 barb camps visible. What this?!! Japanese city next to 15! Nobody has contacts - must've just planted it. Get over there ASAP!


The rest of my turn:

420AD(6) - Sci/Lux to 70/0 for Invention in 3. Cleared barb camp. Put settler on goodie island. Elite sword attacks reg English sword - Hengest appears! Unit renamed Hengest's Heroes.

Hengest goes to 28 and forms an army - elite+vet sword join. Vet sword moves from 25 towards 28.

IT: Hengest's Heroes defends against reg swords! Barbs move.

430AD(7) - 01,02,04 build horses, starts swords. Moscow riots - oops. 06 builds sword, starts pike. Vet sword joins army - takes vet arch on mountain. 07 starts HE (prebuild for Leos). Move horses, swords towards front. Goodie hut - barb warriors.

IT: English hoardes gather. Barbs move - 1 attacks pike. Joan is escorting settler into our territory.

440AD(8) - 05 builds pike, starts another. 07 builds horse, starts sword. Upgrade elite warrior. Pike, swords kill barbs. Another camp near Brighton.

IT: English approach - army gets opportunity strike against sword. Barbs move.

450AD(9) - Discover Invention, set for Astonomy - will decrease sci/lux to 10/0 in anticipation of Mono from Liz. 01 builds sword - starts another. Vet sword takes reg sword outside of 28. 04 switched to Leos.

IT: Loose sword to reg sword. More English troops approach. Barbs move - 1 down.

460AD(10) - 03 builds sword - starts pike. 10 builds pike, starts horse. 12 builds pike, starts sword. 23 builds pike, starts lib. Clear camp. Move troops to front. Army retaliates against sword.

Well, it looks like the Japs founded Suo right after I got the MGL - so I ignored it for 5 turns - my bad! :sleep:

Still, nobody on our continent has contact - whew! We can be there in 2 turns.

With all the schedule conflicts I'm not sure who is even available to play. If anyone wants it, speak up!

SesnOfWthr / Alamo / BradleyFeanor / Cuivienen / Shoe35

460AD

Hi Team Alamo,

I am giving you all an update for BradleyFeanor. He will be back in town on Sat. June 5th in the evening, so I believe he won't be able to take a turn until Sun. or Mon. at the earliest. He doesn't have access to e-mail right now, but I have been updating him on your progress and discussions (as much as I can on the phone) and he is looking forward to being back and seeing everything for himself. If there are any questions or issues you need from him, just post and I will let him know.

Good luck and keep up the good fight.