SGOTM2 Game Thread

Welcome to your game thread for SGOTM2-Germany

Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2-start-position.jpg

Each team has their own save file. Please download and play from the correct save. If you use the wrong save the server will not accept your submission. Also, please make sure that the software version is correct. PM me immediately if it is not.

You can download your save file >>HERE<<. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php)

The Roster
Alamo
bradleyfeanor
Cuivienen
SesnOfWther
shoe35

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/alamos_alamo.png

Team Alamo is online - Deutschland uber alles!

Preliminaries

We are playing [ptw]1.27f.

Game Parameters
Civ: Germans
Difficulty: Monarch
Map size: Standard
Map shape: Continents.3
Barbarians: Raging Horde
Climate: Normal
Temperature: Temperate
Age: 4 Billion Years
Game: All victories; Restarting players off
Opponents: 6 Rivals

Rules of Engagement are here.

Variant: Achieve a diplomatic victory without building the UN wonder.

I have heard from SesnOfWthr and bradleyfeanor. Players cuivienen and shoe35 please post here.

Initial Strategy

The first round is 20 turns to 3000BC.

At the current spot we would get 4 mountains in the capital city radius. The idea of exploring S before settling has been seconded. Moving the worker S would show if there are more forest or grasslands available.

Proposed build order: warrior, warrior, worker, granary.

Those 2 warriors can go on walkabout. However, raging barbarians will require more warriors when they start popping. The ransom should pay for their upkeep.

Who wants to go first?

I'm still here, and I still don't worry myself with the order. Although, like most people, I would usually prefer to go first.

Question though - you want to build a worker as the third unit? Don't you think that's a bit early? If anything, I might advocate a third warrior for MP, or start the granary after the first two warriors. Is this a trick I haven't seen yet?

I am reasonably sure there is one grassland 1 S, and 1 SE. However this looks like it, except for forest. What is the forest chop time in PTW? I find it mildly annoying that the start position has the minimap cropped out. Makes it harder to guess where we should explore. I will point out that there is some body of water to the NW, unknown size and fresh/salt, of course. Correction: Is some of that land near the settler jungle? I can't tell with those graphics, as I'm so used to the ones I use.

BTW - I have never used PTW, so please tell me if I'm making a Conquests only reference at any point in the game.

Welcome to the thread, SesnOfWthr.

That build order was proposed by bradleyfeanor. Building a worker before starting a granary makes sense if you consider how long a granary will take to build. If there is a reasonable food supply then the population will recover and complete the granary without much delay, especially if the worker can contribute food improvements in the meantime.

We are militaristic and scientific (not industrious), so it will take 10 turns to chop a forest.

The water to the NW is another reason to move S. Making room for a town there would let us start the Colossus.

Yes, the tile SW x 2 is jungle. A slight risk of disease if we move the settler S, and another reason for a second worker.

About the strategy

Since the map is Continents.3 (large landmasses) we do not have to dive for MapMaking (for galleys), but we do need to grab land (bigger is better - power/res/lux). Many settlers will be needed, so building a granary is useful to speed up population growth.

We start with Warrior Code and Bronze Working, so we need to research Pottery 100% first (for the granary). Also, set the research immediately after founding Berlin, or loose a turn of research.

Checking in.

Checking south before settling seems like a good idea. If the land to the south is all/mostly Jungle, settle on the starting location. Otherwise, move one south. (Two northwest leaves the river outside of the city radius.)

On research:

I've found this research path to be the fastest route to the Middle Ages:

Pottery --> Iron Working --> (Alphabet) --> Mathematics --> Currency

We can trade those, especially Iron Working and Currency, for all the rest of the AA techs. We may need a quick run to Literature or The Republic to finish off the AA, but that's only if we're unlucky. Alphabet may or may not need to be self-researched, depending on who we start near.

... I find it mildly annoying that the start position has the minimap cropped out.

It's interesting that you are the only person to mention this. In every SG I run I always show the minimap. I havent' in this one for a reason... Did you play GOTM8?

It's interesting that you are the only person to mention this. In every SG I run I always show the minimap. I havent' in this one for a reason... Did you play GOTM8?

To be entirely honest, I have never played ANY GOTM. However, this one does seem familiar. Is it included in one of Bamspeedy's strat articles or something?

Re: research. Personally I have found alphabet and writing to be two of the most valuable techs in the AA. Does philo give the free tech in PTW?

Welcome, Cuivienen!

First move of worker to S is seems agreed. I assume you have no preference on going first.

That's an interesting research proposal. I tend to go for wheel before iron to reveal the horses sooner. That's more out of habit than necessity, though.

Of course the research choices will change if we can trade. That is why early explorers are important.

Literature and Republic are optional, but useful techs. I prefer to switch governments just once to republic (for a non-religious civ). If we research Republic then we will get the anarchy re-roll option. That is a second chance for lower number of turns in anarchy if you start the revolt from the popup and re-revolt in the F1 screen when advisor says things will be under control in 'about 9 turns'.

Keep in mind that Republic in PTW is not as bad as C3C - no unit support, but only 1gpt/unit. In Republic corruption is not as bad as for Monarchy and each roaded tile worked will produce commerce, which will pay the unit support. War weariness can be a problem, though.

Markets and 2 or 3 luxury items usually keeps order, but a protracted war will be unacceptable (especially if we start it).

One thing I noticed about Monarch level is the AI is more likely to do a pre-emptive attack. Simply building and moving a large number of troops close to a border can provoke an attack, which is better that having to start the war.

Another thing about PTW vs C3C - a Forbidden Palace is very useful. We should consider building/rushing one at some point.

Re: research. Personally I have found alphabet and writing to be two of the most valuable techs in the AA. Does philo give the free tech in PTW?

No free tech from philosophy. Is that a C2 throwback in C3C?

As for the most valuable tech, Polytheism has been most coveted tech in my experience. It is required, it leads to a wonder, but it is out of the loop for all the other useful techs. Most AI's are busy with other techs so you can get it first. When you do get it first the AI's will usually make a generous trade for it.

yes, philo now gives access to the free tech, as in Civ2. It also gives access to a new wonder too, but that's irrelevant.

Does the RCP still work in PTW? If the FP has a real benefit, then I'm guessing the RCP still works too.

Course that also means maps with MM. So we can continually trade our map around, right? Just so long as we've already sold it once.

Bear with me guys, I'm trying to get back into the Vanilla/PTW mentality again. I'll be fine once I get playing again.

PS - Armies are still crappy too, right?

Yes, Ring City Placement (RCP) is good, though not always possible. I think the distance is simply number of squares, though it does not look equal along the diagonals.

Map trades are possible if one civ has MapMaking, and there is a reputation bonus for trading maps every so often.

Armies are somewhat useful. An army of offensive troops can be an effective siege weapon. At least they heal better in 1.27 - healing in parallel instead of one at a time. They can attack multiple times, but they cannot retreat. Of course the Heroic Epic, Military Academy and Pentagon can be useful.

When I get a Great Leader I usually consider rushing a FP or the next big wonder before making the first Army.

I would agree that the MGL's are more useful for rushing, however it's nice to know that the blitz and healing are there for the armies. I've been playing vanilla in one of ny other sg's, and they're damn near useless. Do they get the extra movement too?

Repeatedly selling maps can be a nice way to get a few extra gold every couple of turns, though it can be tedious.

IIRC, in RCP, each diagonal square counts as 1.5 as opposed to the 1 each horiz/vert counts as. Therefore, a city 4 tile NE is the same distance as a city 6 tile S. Of course, geographical limitations certainly come into play.

Obviously, if an Army is able to attack multiple times, it has more than one movement point ;)

RCP works perfectly well in PTW, as I just re-experienced in GOTM 31. I'm pretty sure that all directions are created equal when using RCP, but I haven't played PTW since November, so maybe my RCP in GOTM 31 was messed up.

Looks like you're right about RCP.

Distance = max(x,y) + 0.5*min(x,y), where x and y are the distance in the NW/SE and NE/SW directions, respectively.

I'm not sure about which endpoints to include, though. Is this a radius 5 setup, or did they take a one step too far?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/alamo_rcp3.png

Edit: Looks like I did it backwards - up/down and left/right are 1.5, while diagonals are 1.

Edit II: New image linked. I'm still not happy with it, though. That formula is kind of flaky.

Edit III: New image with optimal paths.

First CVN - the blitz attack is what allows the army to attack multiple times, but the question was: do armies get an extra movement point as in Conquests? ie - an infantry army can move/attack twice per turn.

Alamo - You did do it backwards, but that's my fault. N, S, E, W count as 1.5 while diagonals count as one. It's been a while since I used it. However, using my incorrect amounts, the placements all look to be correct. When done correctly, IIRC, the shape resembles an oval more than a ring.

No, the PTW army moves according to the lowest common denominator among the 3 or 4 units.

The problem with that distance formula is inconsistent results along different paths. The distance makes sense as a minimum along all paths between the start and finish squares (not including the start and finish). I'll redraw the picture to make more sense.

In all honesty Alamo, your pic confused me because I think you just sorta left the warriors where they were.

In this pic, yellow is city center, red is ring of three, and blue is ring of six.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RCP.JPG

Confusion describes my post pretty well! :lol:

So you do include the endpoint. I agree that is the distance travelled by the settler. If you put a city there is the distance between the city and the capital still the same?

If you put a city there is the distance between the city and the capital still the same?

Not sure i understand this part of the question.

For RCP purposes, all of the red dots are considered to be the same "3" from the capitol. Therefore, if you were to use rings of 3 and 6, there would be 8 cities with rank 1 corruption, and 16 cities with rank 2.

Obviously though, for movement purposes, all cities would not be equal, with some being two steps from the capitol, and the rest being three (with the red dots).

Is that what you meant?

Distance in the real world is the space between points, but all we have are points (tiles).

Once you have 2 cities you can look at the empty squares between them, or you can look at how a unit travels from one city to the other. Since not all directions are the same it could make a difference.

Now I see that the distances get rounded down. That removes the difference, in practical terms.

Distance = Min over all paths [ floor(max(x,y) + 0.5*min(x,y)) ]

(x,y) = number of tiles travelled along 'X' (NW/SE) directions , ignoring '+' (NS/EW) directions.

Hi Team,

I just read through the thread. On Armies, no free pillage, no extra move. In general, it is always better to rush a wonder if one is available.

The worker as the third unit was a tough decision, but this is why I suggested it: when you have to chop or work in hills, it will generally improve the development time. It starts to pay off around turn 40. If our explorers happen to spot a food bonus nearby for a second city though, it would be better to spit out one settler before the granary (instead of the worker).

I do have a question. I always play emperor or diety, and this is monarch, so I am thinking lots of explorers might be able to get us goodies from huts. Is that true on monarch level?

Yes, definitely! There should be plenty of goodie huts with raging hoardes, too. It may be worth an extra warrior or two, especially if there are no darn scouts nearby.

I will send shoe35 a PM shortly.

Well, that being the case, having more explorers may outweigh getting the granary at the earliest possible date.

So do you guys want to go for the sponsored variant, or are we just going to kick some AI booty?

Yes, the first player may have a tough call on the granary. If the first two warriors do not encounter an explorer (or one falls to angry barbs from a hut) then more warriors may be needed.

The variant is only worth bragging rights, so I have no strong preference. We could keep our options open until mid-industrial age, with a good rep.

I prefer variants, when possible, in my SG's, as not only does it make it more interesting, it helps me remember more of the specifics of the particular game.

Personally, I only seem to get "goodies" about 20% of the time. However, I haven't played much Monarch lately either, with the exception of SG's. Therefore my perception may be wacky.

BTW - one team has already posted scores. I'm not sure what can be inferred from them, but thought I'd point it out.

Also, was the RCP thing a generalized discussion, or a strat we may want to employ?

In my opinion RCP is vital on PTW. It makes a huge difference in the game. I would say the only question for us will be whether we want RCP 3, 4 or 5, and that should be based on terrain features and the distance of the AI. I would suspect we will want RCP 4 or 5 since this is Monarch level. We will probably have a good bit of breathing room.

Are we playing by the RBCiv rules? Ie, no building our palace in a remote location and all of that?

Here is an example of the RCP variant I prefer to use. (Yes, I know one of the pink dots is misaligned, oops) This gives us rings of 3, 4.5, 6, and 7.5. The two biggest drawbacks to RCP are the rigidity of the placement, and the corruption jump from one ring to the next. The first can't be helped, but this alleviates some of the second. You'll see each ring has four cities until you get to distance 7.5, where you have eight. Of course it could be done with rings of 4, 6, 8, and 10 as well.

I don't know if we're actually using RBC rules, but I would imagine the palace jump technique is not allowed. I would guess that we are using GOTM type of rules, but now I'm not sure ......

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/RCP2.JPG

Thats kind of interesting. I personally like to have 6 cities at rank 1 rather than 4 at rank 1 and 4 at rank 5. But if the terrain lays out the right way (extrmely good terrain in outer radius of your second ring), this could be a very powerful layout.

We rented the Roy Jones fight tonight, so I will check in with you guys in the morning. If someone takes the first turn, good luck! If not, I will be happy to take them tomorrow if no one else wants them.

In any case, if anyone has a question in the middle of your turns, don't hesitate to stop and ask questions!

Later,

Brad

SesnOfWthr You can go ahead and start us off if you're still awake. You get 20 turns to 3000BC. I haven't heard from shoe35 yet, but half the weekend is over. Feel free to stop at any time and post if you want some feedback.

The SGOTM ettiquette rules are in the Rules - Post a "got it" within 24hrs and post a new save within 72hrs. We will use the times in this thread as official time.

I assume we are using GOTM rules - palace jump, RCP, anarchy re-roll allowed, worker pop-rushing and out-of-bounds palace not allowed. I'll read through the rules thread to be sure.

Goodie hut reward ratio is small, but every hut popped is one less for the others.

Looks good, I'll dive in right now. :)

GOT IT

Well, here’s to swimming with bow-legged women. :beer:

4000 bc (0) – As discussed, I move the worker south. I see a lot of jungle suddenly. I sit and stare at the screen for a bit before I decide we’re good where we are. Suddenly very glad I didn’t move, I see a wheat 2 tiles NW, and a game 1 E, 1SE. :D Start warrior in 5, sci at 100% gets us pottery in 14.

3950 bc (1) – Send settler towards eastern BG.

3900 bc (2) – Zzzzz

3850 bc (3) – start mine.

3800 bc (4) – Zzzzz

3750 bc (5) – warrior -> warrior. Send him west.

3700 bc (6) – See some plains to the west.

3650 bc (7) – Zzzzz

3600 bc (8) – Zzzzz

3550 bc (9) – Finish mine, start road.

3500 bc (10) – warrior -> worker. Send this one east.

3450 bc (11) – Lot of jungle south, and mountains west. We have spices just outside our southern borders.

3400 bc (12) – worker - > barracks (granary). Find a small lake due west.

3350 bc (13) – We get pottery, start on IW in 32 at 100%. I figure at least it’s a second tier tech.

3300 bc (14) – Have still seen no huts or explorers.

3250 bc (15) – Zzzzz

3200 bc (16) – I might see the eastern coast ….

3150 bc (17) – we did indeed find the coast, about 8 tiles east.

3100 bc (18) – Zzzzz

3050 bc (19) – Zzzzz

3000 bc (20) – More of the same …

Quick recap: Granary in 7. We have Pottery, 18 left on IW. The workers will finish in two turns. In game score: 67.

>>>SAVE<<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo3000BC.zip)

BTW - should we be using a different name for the uploads, or do we not care if people are looking?

A screenie:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Sesn.JPG

OK, two more things:

First, of the four submissions so far, we're already last.

Second, I'm having trouble submitting the save. I get this error message:

Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object in /home/virtual/site7/fst/var/www/html/BabyBeast/CivFile.php on line 136

Anyone know what that means?

Guys - Just a heads up. Don't worry about Shoe - he was very reliable in my team last time round. Some people find it difficult to get on the net at the weekend.

Looking good! Nice call on the settler move. No scouts - good! :) No huts yet!? :(

Looks like we have lots of nice spots to settle, though the mountains may make RCP problematic. Looks like a radius 5 will fit, so far.

Those warriors need to start a beeline for the hinterlands to make first contact. No minimap so I'm not sure which direction.

A great start, SesnOfWthr.

About that...

Name on the upload - I don't think it matters for the upload form, since it probably gets renamed.

Submit error - hopefully a temporary problem. Report it on the maintenance thread if you are unable to upload. You can always do a normal upload and post it here (name like Alamo_SG002_3000BC_02.SAV, I guess).

Low score - probably because we built a worker so pop lower, and others may have more warriors. Not a big concern, yet.

Edit: I finally noticed the save file SensOfWthr posted above. I cannot open it. My guess is there is a version/mod issue. Error says:

Scenario Invalid Could not open scenario file. The file may be corrupt.

OK, two more things:

First, of the four submissions so far, we're already last.

Second, I'm having trouble submitting the save. I get this error message:

Fatal error: Call to a member function on a non-object in /home/virtual/site7/fst/var/www/html/BabyBeast/CivFile.php on line 136

Anyone know what that means?

Mad-bax pointed me at this post. I'm only interested in your upload problem and haven't looked at the rest of your thread, honest! Please can you upload your failing save using the Upload file option and PM a link to me? I'll investigate and fix whatever has failed as a matter of urgency.

Thanks.

I have sent the appropriate PM to AlanH. Maybe I'm doing something wrong? Does anyone know if there is a particular procedure for loading PTW games using the C3C disc? It is impossible to launch PTW directly, so I just loaded it using C3C. When I checked the civilopedia, there were no entries for volcanos, and philo was an empty tech (two fo the changes for C3C). Am I missing something?

EDIT: I have various graphical mods with Conquests, but have never had a problem in another SG. I have not modded the rules.

You can play PTW from the desktop using this shortcut.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM-ptw1.jpg

Then you will get this splash screen with 1.27f shown in the bottom left hand corner.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM-ptw.jpg

If you get the Conquests splash - as my wife would say - you're doing it all wrong ;)

@MB - I have tried launching PTW before and always got the error "Please insert the Civ3 PTW CD-Rom" or something to that effect. I have now completely deleted my ENTIRE Infogrames Interactive folder, and reinstalled.

For the first time, I got the PTW splash screen. :band:

I am replaying right now, I'll try to recreate everything as close as possible.

SesnOfWthr

If you don't see a shortcut then you can look for the PTW executable - should be something like ...\civ3\civ3ptw\PTW127.exe.

If we have a version problem then the easiest way to proceed may be to simply replay the start. Fortunately you made good notes, so the major decisions are repeatable. The warrior moves are not repeatable, but you do know what tiles got revealed from the 3000BC map.

Edit: Didn't see that last post - nevermind.

Ok, I tried repeating everything identically, including the wrrior moves, and I think I did pretty well.

Our score is still 67, we still have 7 on granary, 18 left on IW. Surprisingly, the warriors ended on the same squares.

However, I'm still getting an error trying to upload the save file. This one says:
ERROR
There was a problem with your submission:
Your entry has not been recorded. Please correct the items marked * and resubmit it.

The items marked with the star were username and file name. :hmm:

Before I try to figure that out, maybe someone can try the save to see if that part of it is remedied?

>>>SAVE<<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo_SG002_BC3000_02.zip)

And a new screenie, including minimap.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Sesn2.JPG

Yes, it works! [dance]

I was able to upload the *.SAV file without any problem.

Whew!

Now can you try to upload it, in case the problem is with my username?

I didn't spell your name correctly in the database SesnOfWthr. I fixed it and uploaded your file for you. :)

You will be able to upload saves now.

These must have been the most difficult first twenty turns that I have ever played!

Hopefully the rest of the game goes much smoother.

BTW - I screwed up the settling (hit settle then canceled) so "Leipzig" won't come up on our city list again. I settled Leipzig then renamed to Berlin.

*goes off to try to reinstall all of his graphic mods*

That explains it. Good catch m-b.

Ok, we're in the race.

bradleyfeanor If you see this in the next 5 hours then go ahead and do the next 10 turns. Otherwise I may jump in.

BTW, the "official" source for the save games is the SGOTM Submission List (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php). The table entries are links to the saves.

Edit: No Leipzig? The first city we capture will be renamed Leipzig!

That reminds me - I like to number my cities like Berlin->01_Berlin so that the alpha order in the F1 screen makes sense - productive core cities at the top, the rest in order of acquisition.

Edit II: I'm taking the second turn. GOT IT!.

All done with my turn. Save uploaded.

bradleyfeanor is up next, then shoe35.

Summary:

2550BC - FScore 76 - Granary build and filled - Forest chop in 2 turns - IW in 10 turns - No contact and no huts! - Lots of good land to grab.

I am thinking there are no barbs at all now! Mil advisor says nothing about tribes, though it's about time for some to pop.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/alamo_sgotm2_screen1.png

Log:

3000BC - Things looking good. Berlin is size 2 and unprotected, but no contacts and no sign of barbs yet. I will build a warrior next just in case.

Spice and incense visible. Sci 100 for IW in 18 turns. F11 screen shows London, Kyoto, Beijing, and Moscow also size 2. French and Indians did not make the cut (from F10).

Workers done irrigating wheat in 2 turns. Will mine the BG next.

Decide to send N warrior directly W, and the S warrior directly S to make contact.

2950BC(1) - Warriors move.

2900BC(2) - Irrigation complete, but I'll keep the tile assignment a couple more turns to avoid emptying the food just as granary is complete. Workers mine roaded BG. Warriors move.

2850BC(3) - Warriors move. N_Warrior finds the W coast - will send him NE next since S is most likely a peninsula (fish in saltwater).

2800BC(4) - Warriors move. Check the tile assignment - need one more turn on game tile.

2750BC(5) - Mine complete. Move workers to game tile - rats! Forgot about despotism penalty (-1 for >2). :blush: I'll send them to the SW forest next. S_Warrior spots ivory. Tile assignment switched from game to wheat.

2710BC(6) - Move workers to forest SW of 01_Berlin. Warriors move.

2670BC(7) - Workers start chopping (5 turns) - next player will get the shields in the 2cnd turn. Warriors move. N_Warrior spots more spices. Still no huts!

2630BC(8) - Granary complete and full :cool: - start warrior. Pop growth next turn. Ok timing on the chop even though I wasted a turn. Warriors move.

2590BC(9) - Lux/Sci to 10/90 to keep order. Warriors move.

2550BC(10) - Warrior complete - fortified. Lux/Sci to 0/80 for 10 turns, again. Warriors move. Berlin started a settler, and the chop will finish in 2 turns.

I am reading through the threads now. Sorry I was AWOL yesterday. I was at my girlfriends house and her phone line went down for over 18 hours. I have to work today, but can play this evening around 6pm. If someone can play before then, you are welcome to pick it up if Alamo gives the ok.

Good morning team.

Sorry I was AWOL this weekend. My mother was hospitalized for Heart problems
things seem to be getting better for her. I will keep on top of this now.

btw the game looks good so far.

I read through everyone's turns: great job on settling on the spot and recreating your turns SesnOfWthr. :goodjob:

I can't play at work, but I can plan out the best build sequence and the most efficient set up for our capitol. :) From looking at the screenshots, it looks like we have a plains wheat, a forest game, 2 BGs, 2 reg. Grass, and the rest is forest, hills, mountains and jungle. We also just grew last turn, so should have 13f in the bin and be making 3 food per turn. We also just built a warrior, so we have no shields stored. Is that correct guys?

Alamo:
Move workers to game tile - rats! Forgot about despotism penalty (-1 for >2).

I assume you are referring to the game tile getting no bonus for clearing and then irrigating? Actually, it would yield 3 food (2f for grass + 1f for irrigation + 1f for game - 1f for despotism).

I will work out an optimal build/tile development spreadsheet for the capitol, and see if we should do the clearing/irrigation of the game or just slap a road on it.

I fear my pre-game advice on building the worker as a third build was poor. With two BGs, a wheat and a game readily available, we will not have to do an inordinate amout of work around the capitol to get it going. I should have put more stipulations on my recommendation. Sorry guys. :blush:

We shall have to use him brilliantly to get back what we invested in him.

Your timing of the granary was excellent Alamo!

Welcome Shoe. Sorry to hear about your mom. Best wishes!

Good to see you, Shoe. Hope everything keeps getting better for your mom.

A quick note: the game already got a road "slapped on it" during my turns. I considered clearing it, but couldn't justify all the worker turns this early to trade 1 food for 1 shield.

EDIT: actually, I think we would lose the two shields, or is there a shield bonus for game that we lost due to the penalty? Can't remember ATM.

An unmodded game should yield 2f, 2s under despotism. Was I correct on the tiles we have by the way? I can't tell for sure, because the city name is over a few of them.

No offense, but that doesn't really answer the question. On what terrain would the game yield that? What is the actual bonus for game? 1f and 1s?

I'm at work too, so all I have to work with is screenies as well.

Oops, sorry. I'm glad you asked again though, because it made me think. Game yields +2 food. So when it is irrigated we can have the magic +5f per turn. :love:

I just realized I am definitely wrong on the tiles, because we uncovered some sort of grassland in our chop. Without knowing the exact number of BGs vs. Reg Grass we have, I will have to wait till I get home to see what type of factory we can make in the capitol.

In looking at the screenie again, I think this is what we have: 1 Wheat (irrigated), 2BGs (mined), 2 grass (undeveloped) and a game (mined???). If that is the case, that tile should be irrigated ASAP.

I think what you're seeing on the game is forest. The game was on forest during my turns, and I don't see any evidence that it was chopped.

Would be great to get a factory going ASAP.

Welcome, shoe35!

Sorry to hear about your mother. I hope she's ok.

No problem with turn order - whoever is ready post and play. I just assumed bradleyfeanor would be ready sooner.

When I moved the workers to the game tile I was thinking of mining it. I totally missed the forest! I should have chopped that one, eh? Come to think of it, mining that BG was not time critical, either. At least the 10 shields from the chop will be productive.

Edit: The 2cnd worker is still good, IMHO. We have plenty of forest and jungles, and we'll need plenty of roads. I should have included a close-up of Berlin - sorry.

Since no one has grabbed the game yet, I am assuming I will play around 5:30.

Here is what I plan to do, but please make suggestions if you have other ideas! I am posting this stuff so it can be discussed or improved on.

We can have a population 4/6, 4-turn settler factory if we clear and irrigate the game tile and mine one regular grassland. I think the 4-turn factory is our best option, because we can't build a pop 5/7 5-turn combo chariot/settler factory unless we happen to uncover two BGs by chopping, which would be extremely fortunate to say the least.

*Saying a prayer to Odin for a BG under our current chop.*

If we finish our current chop, mine/road the new grassland we will be standing on, then go to the game and chop and irrigate it, it will take us 15 turns. Build orders during that time are really tough. We are in the yucky position of producing 8 to 9 shields per turn, and we will be like that for quite a while. That is a waste of at least 6 shields for every military unit we build.

Therefore I think the best option is to let the settler finish in 3 turns with the help of the chop, and then build a barracks and two warriors. We really don’t lose shields because they would be wasted otherwise (unless we were to build a temple). We do lose a little cash, but that doesn’t bother me at this early point in the game. With this build order we will be back to a population of 4 in about 12 turns: still too early, because the workers will not be done. I will skip roading the first grassland (the one we are on), and that will save two turns. So on about turn 3 for the next player the settler factory should be online, but they might have to micromanage one turn in order to make sure production and growth occur at the same time.

I think the 4-turn factory is our best option, because we can't build a pop 5/7 5-turn combo chariot/settler factory unless we happen to uncover two BGs by chopping, which would be extremely fortunate to say the least.

I don't understand this 5 turn factory. Isn't the granary emptied upon growth to size 7? Could you please elaborate upon this?

Hmmm...you must have done a serious shield analysis. I wish the build queue would give shield costs.

Settler, barracks, warrior, warrior sounds good to me, especially if barbs start popping.

Bamspeedy's Bab Diety Settlers says: DO NOT GET TO SIZE 7. When you get to size 7 the granary is emptied.

I suppose there may be an exception if you build a settler on the same turn as the 7th citizen birth.

With 11 of 20 tiles covered tiles it is possible to find 2 BG's, but it would take time to uncover them all.

The key is that the settler must be built on the turn we would have become size 7. Since the settler is built on that turn, we never grow 1 point to size 7, rather we shrink 1 point (rather than 2) to size 5. The granary will only empty if you reach size 7 without building a worker or settler on the turn you will grow.

Here is an example of the 5/7 combo factory. We would need these tiles around our city for the combo factory:

One irrigated grassland game: 4f, 0s
One irrigated plains wheat: 3f, 1s
Three mined BGs: 2f, 2s (We only have two right now)
One forest: 1f, 2s
The city tile itself: 2f, 1s.

Our city starts at size 5 with a granary.
On Turn 1 we work all four BGs and our wheat, producing:
3f, 10s
On Turn 2 we work the same tiles:
6f, 20s. The production box then goes to 0 because we build a unit.
On Turn 3 we work the game tile, the wheat, and three bgs:
10f, 10s. The food goes back to half full because we get a new citizen. The extra two shields are also from that new citizen.
On Turn 4 we work the game, wheat and 4BGs:
5f 20s.
On Turn 5 the same:
10f 30+s. We grow on this turn, giving us a new citizen. We build a settler, taking our shields to zero. Then we shrink to size 5 (before the granary would empty), and start the cycle again.

I will try to find the thread for you that gets into a lot more detail. Essentially, the game makes the calculation that would empty the granary after the calculation that shrinks the city.

Got it, will play as soon as I get home!

I just did a little experiment with 10 random games with these map settings. In every case I found huts or another civ BEFORE 3000BC, even when I threw out 3 cases where huts were visible from the start. We should have seen at LEAST one hut by now!

Babarian camps seem to start appearing around 2150BC.

I am playing right now and agonizing over settling decisions. We just can't see enough of the map close to home.

I think you are right on the huts. Since this is monarch, I wouldn't be surprised if they removed them from our area in order to eliminate the possibility of getting a settler. That would have given a team a huge advantage. In our explorations, I think we should only concentrate on finding AIs and good city sites. If we find a hut, it will probably be very far from home. If anyone finds one far away I would recommend temporarily switching one city to a settler before popping it in order to have a better chance at getting a tech. Getting a settler far from home is of no use.

2550, turn 30 I agonized over where to send the future settler. We can’t see enough of our nearby terrain to decide on RCP distance. I think RCP 5 has better locations than 4 on this map, but it will make defense from the barbs more difficult. If a cow ends up outside the range of our first tier, don’t blame me! I debated switching the build to an exploring spear (because of the chop in 2 turns) instead of a barracks, but that would mean by the middle of the next persons turn, we would have 3 regular units instead of 3 veterans. I didn’t feel uncovering a few tiles was worth that, so I stuck with the barracks.

2510, 31 Warriors explore.

2470, 32 Chop completes, barracks > settler. Workers begin mine, but it is a regular grassland. Warriors explore (we are having abysmal luck at finding people).

2430, 33 Raise lux to 10%, science has to go down to 60% because of gold, IW due in 9.

2390, 34 Our northern warrior hits a dead end and turns to the southeast. It would take too many turns for him to reach new territory going down the west coast.

2350, 35 A barb climbs onto the hill to the east. Horrible timing, because I can’t stop the settler build. I also can’t send the workers to the game square, so all my carefully laid plans go up in smoke.

2310, 36 settler > archer. I take a calculated risk and send our warrior to kill the barb warrior. He wins! [dance] I send the workers over to clear the game tile and send the settler to follow the warrior. The southern warrior hits a dead end also. He heads west. Set lux to 0, IW due in 5.

2270, 37 The settler and warrior pair move toward the plain on the river to the west, SE of the BG. IW still due in 5 because we grow and I bump up Lux to 10%. Micromanage for +2f +7s. We will still grow in 4, but we will get the spear a turn earlier.

2230, 38 An English scout appears on the Mountain W-SW-SW of Berlin. They have four cities and are up CB and Alphabet. We have nothing they want. Is this really monarch level??? We do have some fantastic luck: the city spot I was going to has a wheat NE of it. Fortify warrior and turn lux off.

2190, 39 Spear > archer. Founded 02_Leipzig (great idea on adding the numbers by the way). The next city should be named Hamburg since we are off by 1. Now we can get IW in 2 and still make 2 gold per turn. Warriors explore.

2150, 40 England has 124 points, we have 82.

I hope the following is not too much info, but I want to make sure we get our settler factory going as quick as we can.

Leipzig is set to barracks, but the next player can set it to whatever he wishes. Berlin is on a spear but it could be changed to an archer if you prefer. Don’t change it to a warrior, because the chop will be done in 1 turn. Even though it says it will be done in 3 turns, it will finish next turn. The workers should both irrigate when the chop is finished.

After Berlin is finished with the Spear or Archer, I would set it to a Warrior, and then time the build of the settler so that is on the same turn that Berlin grows to size 6. I believe that will be 3 or 4 turns after a warrior is built. I tried to set things up so that there would be very little micromanagement, but I couldn’t. You will have to adjust tiles so production and growth to 6 occur on the same turn.

Remember to set the city governor (hit “g” on city screen) to emphasize production. It is vital to the settler factory. Don’t forget to raise the lux next turn or we will riot.

IW will be researched in two turns, but consider waiting to trade until we meet another AI. Switching research to the wheel at minimum, or turning it off, may also be a good idea. There is nothing we can research right now that the computer will not have to trade us when we meet them.

I will post screenshots in the morning. I got delayed in finishing my turns by phone calls, and now I am beat.

The save is

HERE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Alamo_SG002_BC2150_01.SAV)

Here is the known world to the NW…

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AlamoSGOTM2150BCNWEmpire.jpg

Here is the known world to the SE…

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AlamoSGOTM2150BCSWEmpire.jpg

And here is our “core”…

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AlamoSGOTM2150DotMap.jpg

This is a very tentative and incomplete dotmap. Our first city is at RCP 5, so I think we should stick close to that. It would make sense to build the next ring at RCP 8 because 5 and 7 overlap too much.

Exploration of the terrain close to us, in particular the areas near the blue dots, should be a top priority. Given what little we can see, I think the red dot should be the next city site. The two blue dots are tentative sites, pending exploration. Alternatively, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to send our current spear to the southern area to explore, and send the next spear/settler combo toward the northern blue dot to explore/settle.

If we can uncover enough of the map, here is another option on RCP that we should consider. If we can determine which of our first tier cities will have the best surrounding terrain, we could build a ring at RCP 3 or 4 around that city, and not worry as much about RCP around the capitol. We would then start a prebuild for the forbidden palace in that city. We would move our current palace to whichever AIs land we liked the most and establish our second core there. :) Thinking that far ahead in the build pattern of our empire can add a tremendous production boost that lasts the entire game.

I had to make two edits to my post from very very late last night :) :

IW is due in 2 turns, not 1, and the settler can be built three or four turns after the warrior. I am not sure which because I didn't feel like doing the math until I finish my coffee. :p

If you are fond of micromanaging Shoe, then I will not worry about it. If you aren't, let me know and I will happily do the math.

Since the barbs have reared their ugly heads, I expect we will see many more in coming turns. But that's ok, a few elite warriors or archers could come in most handy for bagging a few leaders later. :groucho:

Good luck Shoe!

A nice round. Good call on that barb.

An interesting idea about the secondary RCP. It would have to be on the W side.

Something else to consider is setting up another settler factory to the NW by all those floodplains.

2230, 38 An English scout appears on the Mountain W-SW-SW of Berlin. They have four cities and are up CB and Alphabet. We have nothing they want. Is this really monarch level???

Remember to set the city governor (hit “g” on city screen) to emphasize production. It is vital to the settler factory. Don’t forget to raise the lux next turn or we will riot.

IW will be researched in two turns, but consider waiting to trade until we meet another AI. Switching research to the wheel at minimum, or turning it off, may also be a good idea. There is nothing we can research right now that the computer will not have to trade us when we meet them.


The scourge of scouts has appeared, eh? They could have grabbed a dozen huts by now. Are you suprised by how far ahead they are, or not so far? I'm suprised they only have +2 techs.

The use of city governors is discouraged, but it is ok as long as you turn them off before the final save. Of course if we have a ton of corrupt cities then the city governor would be handy.

We should research for Polytheism at 10%, IMHO. It can reduce the price we have to pay for CB/Myst, and Poly is usually good to trade.

BTW, clicking the more on the Mil Advisor (F3) screen will get a comment about the closest barb camp, if there are any. I would definitely check that first on the next round.

I agree 100% on the second factory in the floodplains. We will need it later for workers too. Those jungles are everywhere.

I agree on the RCP around a FP to the west also, NW looks like a strong possiblity.

Very nice tip on the Mil Adv. I will definitely remember that!

I am not so sure they only have two techs on us. I wouldn't be surprised if they have writing and/or mysticism also. I am definitely surprised by their level, as I was expecting them to be noticably weaker on Monarch level. I guess that is good, because theat means we can get them to the UN faster. :)

I don't think we can research poly unless we get CB and Myst from an AI, preferably after meeting at least one more to bring prices down.

The gov. is set to emphasize production in my save. If we do not use the governor, I fear the settler factory may not work. I have not tested it. That one extra shield from the new citizen being placed in the forest instead of on a grassland is vital to its functioning. In case anyone does not know, once the factory is running, that citizen must be moved from the forest to the grassland every other turn.

Fortunately, our workers are nearly done around our capitol. After irrigating, all we need is a road on the grassland and a road on one river forest and we are done. If one heads over to develop Leipzig, that city will be excellent for military production as well as a settler or two. The other could head toward whatever site is picked for the next city.

I noticed we are dead last in score by the way. :( I think we will need some inspired strategy to catch back up.

I think that it looks good. Will play this evening.

also thank you for the advice

The gov. is set to emphasize production in my save. If we do not use the governor, I fear the settler factory may not work. I have not tested it. That one extra shield from the new citizen being placed in the forest instead of on a grassland is vital to its functioning.

Good point - the city gov set to production is needed on the turn before growth!

I wonder how Team Peanut went from 74 to 89 so fast. I bet they built an extra settler or a bunch of troops compared to us. We do have 2 buildings now. I'm not so worried about score just yet. I bet we catch up in the expansion phase.

BTW, our policy on demands for tribute is to give them whatever they want until we have an offensive force ready, right?

My standard policy on tribute is this:

If I don't think I can fight them and win, I cave.

Also, the sooner we get our factory going, and thus more pop, the sooner our score climbs.

Yep, I cave too.

Do any of you know of a thread that shows the factors that affect our score most? I don't really have a handle on the relative importance of land area vs. population vs. tech, etc.

This is just a guess, but I am thinking most of the teams got their factories going sooner than us and that is why their score is higher (although team Akots may already be killing people) :) Maybe if we can pull a few settlers from other cities we can catch up?

You can read SirPleb's milking article HERE. (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_maxscore.shtml)

IIRC, and I haven't read it in a while, food production, pop, and specialists influence score the most.

EDIT: food production indirectly influences the score.

(Territory + HappyCitizens*2 + ContentCitizens + Specialists) * Difficulty

So more food = more content and happy citizens. To increase score we should also prioritize hooking up whatever luxes we can find.

I found a thread that has a really cool 4 turn warrrior/settler factory HERE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=84236&page=2&pp=20)

This isn't the article that helped me out so much though. I will keep looking for that one.

Got it and will play this evening. (I am up, right? According to the roster...)

I'll try to get the Settler factory set up. I'm thinking that most of our cities should be to the west early on to block the English from expanding in our direction. Of course, the west is also heavily mountainous, so that plan may fail anyway. We'll see.

Hi Cuivienen. I think Shoe may also have the game...

2150 BC (40) --

All looks good. *Enter*

~ A barb appears south of Leipzig.

2110 BC (41) --

Berlin grows. Lux to 10%, Science to 20% (IW due next turn). Chop completes, irrigation starts.

Berlin: Spearman --> Spearman

2070 BC (42) --

Trade England Iron Working for Alphabet and 51 gold.

Iron Working --> Writing (trade bait) Due in 22 @ -2gpt, 64 gp in coffers

There is Iron on the mountain just south of Leipzig and more near the Floodplains. A third is visible north of the Spices.

2030 BC (43) --

Our Settler factory is ready, with Berlin at 5 fpt. Just need to grow a bit.

Not much else happens. We spot a barb camp in the far north.

1990 BC (44) --

Berlin grows.
Berlin: Spearman --> Spearman

1950 BC (45) --

We spot dark green borders in the south. Probably Russia.

1910 BC (46) --

Tralala. Nothing happens.

1870 BC (47) --

Berlin grows in two, but only builds the Settler in five. I change it to a settler anyway, as the Forest chop will speed the Settler. Hopefully the Forest chop will reveal a BG that we can mine.

We meet Russia. They are up Masonry and Ceremonial Burial and down Alphabet. England doesn't have Masonry, but Russia won't trade us Masonry. We get CB and 35 gold from Russia for Alphabet.

Lux tax is raised for Berlin.

1830 BC (48) --

zzz

1790 BC (49) --

Leipzig: Barracks --> Spearman

Chop completes -- no BG :( Workers move on to the next Forest to attempt to reveal another BG.

1750 BC (50) --

Berlin: Settler --> Settler

As long as we keep chopping forests near Berlin, we'll be close to, though not at, a Settler factory. I can't think of any better setup right now.

Anyway, the Settler has been sent NW to settle near some newly-revealed Ivory.

>>Save<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo_SG002_BC1750_01.SAV)

not sure about the order here but I am willing to play according to the roster.

just please let me know what the correct playing order is

thank you

Hi Cuivienen. I think Shoe may also have the game...

Well, its done now. Looking back, I see that he grabbed it. Guess I overlooked that... Anyway, I just submitted the save file, so just play from my save. Sorry about that.

no problem here


does anyone know the order of play.

ie who plays in what order?

Play order:

SesnOfWthr
Alamo
BradleyFeanor
Cuivienen
Shoe35

At least, that's the order we have used thus far.

As far as the factory, I think when the city grows to five, the extra two shields will drop settler time to four. Make sure "emphasize production" is on the turn before growth to five. It must be turned off before the save is submitted though.

Shoe35 please take your turn now.

Looks like you have a settler. Please see SensOfWthr's post about RCP sites.

Sorry Cuivienen, I forgot to mention you after that RCP discussion.

This order sounds good.

SesnOfWthr
Alamo
BradleyFeanor
Cuivienen
Shoe35

As for the city governor, I was trying to follow the rules post. I think this particular rule is more of a guideline. Governors could override the intentions of the previous player. In our case the governor is essential. Vive le governor!

FWIW, I think the spirit of the governor rule is to make us MM for happiness. I just don't want to be the one to say leave it on if it's gonna cause us problems with MB. :p

got it
will play this evening

Here is the current situation. The purple spot is the settlement spot SensOfWthr recommended. The other spots are RCP 5 spots, with the reds being mountains, and the light blues not revealed. Another settler is complete in 3 turns. Is that correct?

Check the F3 screen to see a barb camp warning!

Looks to me that the purple spot is outside the RCP

well anyway here is the Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo_SG002_BC1500_0..>) , well it will be when I can get it uploaded

1750BC Turn 50 everything looks good

IBT Barbs moving

1725BC Turn 51 Moving

IBT Barbs move; the English are building The Oracle

1700BC Turn 52 Increase Lux slider to avoid rioting. MM to achieve settler and growth on the same turn. Moving, fortified vet Spear at city loc

IBT Barbs attack 02_Spear holds off two of them and is promoted to elite

1675BC Turn 53 Established 03_ Moving

1650BC Turn 54 01_Berlin Settlerà Settler MM Berlin. Moving

1625BC Turn 55 Workers clear forest. Move to adjacent forest. Change Berlin to Spear Moving

1600BC Turn 56 Berlin SpearàSettler MM to increase income and time growth Settler Moving. Elite Spear removes roaming Barb

1575BC Turn 57 Moving

1550BC Turn 58 Moving, Elite Spear removes Barb Camp +25 helps to make up for the negative cash flow

1525BC Turn 59 Moving

1500BC Turn 60 Moving. The Settler has yet to move, couldn’t decide where to send him. Discovered WritingàPhilosophy didn’t check trades, so you might want to do that.


Score 115

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Map2.JPG

Shoe, that's the wrong save file. That one is 1750bc. Also, did you already submit the save?

I have checked and using the governor is fine. It is only discouraged because some players feel it is impolite to have it on on their turns without knowing it. All players have been well informed about the emphasize production governor in our game, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Here is a breakdown on the settler factory, we need to be sure it functions this way so we don't get further behind. Sorry, I should have explained this better in my turn summary:

The settler should have been started in 2030 BC, in that way, he could have been timed to be built on the same turn that our city grew to size 6 (turn 1870 bc). Because he was started late, there was no way to time the build with growth. Building the settler on the turn of growth to size 6 is the only way this settler factory will function. Our next settler could have appeared in 1725, and then another every four turns after that. We don't need to chop any wood around Berlin, that should be saved until we need it for a cheap library or a marketplace. In fact, our workers need to get away from Berlin ASAP and develop our other cities, like Leipzig, into worker/unit/settler factories. All Berlin needs is a road on its mined grassland and one on a forest river if it doesn't have them. It will not use any more tiles for a long, long time. Also, Berlin cannot build anything but settlers or it will throw off the timing.


Here is the way our factory works:
Turn 1: Governor set to emphasize production. City size 4. No food or shields in storage. Work wheat, game and two BGs. If there is a worker in the forest, move him to one of these squares. +5 fpt, +6 spt. The screen will say growth in 2, settler due in 5, but the settler will actually be build in 4.
Turn 2: 5 food in bin, 6 shields in bin. +5fpt, +6spt
Turn 3: We grow. Move new citizen from the forest to a grassland. We get 8 shields this turn, not 6, because the new citizen was placed in the forest. 0 food in bin. 14 shields in bin. +5 fpt, +7spt.
Turn 4: We have 5 food in the bin and 21 shields. +5fpt, +7spt. It will say the settler is due in two, but he will be built the following turn.
At the end of this turn (in between turns), the new citizen will be placed in the forest and we will get 9 shields, so the settler is built. Then everything starts over again with turn 1.

Whenever you meet someone, please post all the techs that are shown and how much money they have. Also, is everyone checking them every turn to see if they have techs to trade?

I think we probably do not need anymore spears. We should only be building warriors until we get a horse hooked up, then we will have to decide between warriors or chariots.

Why is 04_Konigsberg (as opposed to 03_Kongsberg) placed where it is? It has no access to the floodplains where it is...

Sesn is right, Shoe.
You linked to your starting save, and the 1500BC save does not appear in the submissions page. Any problem?

Since our workers are so far from Leipzig, I would consider building a worker there or begin building a temple so we can whip it. Switching research to Lit at minimum might also be a good idea, depending on what trades are available.

On the dotmap, I think the spot SE of the spice and S of the Iron look great. A port city located exactly 7 moves NE, 1 move E of Berlin would also be a great spot. RCP 8, and we could start a galley there as soon as we get map making. In looking at the mini map I suspect there is another continent somewhere to the East, and meeting a few civs there would give us tech parity or better (and full coffers) for a long time to come.

Looks good, shoe35. Check your autosaves if you can't find a good 1500BC save.

Is that a barb camp way up N? We must have traded maps! (AI WMaps show barb camps!) Send someone up to get that $$!

Yes, my purple dot was too far. (No, 5.5 - I stand corrected - again)

Both Konisbergs are R=5 cities. 04 will need a temple to get a couple of floodplains.

Obviously the next few settlers need to go S/SE to form the border with Cathy (and claim spice, iron, river, incense). If the S_Warrior explores W we can see if another R=5 city will fit (or more mountains :().

Next Up:

SesnOfWthr
Alamo
BradleyFeanor
Cuivienen
Shoe35

Your purple dot was not too far, it was perfect at a distance of 5.5. The numbers are rounded down in RCP calculations.

Also, Konigsberg will only get one floodplain with a temple. Should we consider moving it one square north so that it can be a worker/settler production city?

I will check on the save I may have loaded the wrong file .

sorry I didn't realize that the game rounds down.

Had problems uploading last night thought that I had it fixed.

Sorry about not keeping you posted on the tech's will keep better track next time

left porduction on spears as I figured they would be changed by the next player.

I am at work so I will have to wait until this evening to fix the Save problem

also sorry I forgot to change the name of 03-K

No problemo! I didn't realize we could learn the general vacinity of barbs by checking with the military adviser. I think these SGOTM's are a fantastic way to get better. Some of these players are unbelievably good.

I agree, I keep learning new tricks and usefull information.

unfortunately it sometimes comes from making mistakes or false assumpiotions :o

Also, Konigsberg will only get one floodplain with a temple. Should we consider moving it one square north so that it can be a worker/settler production city?

Looks like it could build a worker and disband easily, but we could just put another city a little further out (R=8). There are more floodplains on the coast near Leipzig.

I believe the appropriate proverb goes something like "The burned hand teaches best," Which would explain these blistered, bloody stumps I am typing with.

The RCP stuff is very powerful, but I am thrilled they eliminated it in C3C. The game is much more fun and realistic without it.

Putting another city out at RCP 8, perhaps on the square east of the iron, is a pretty good idea too. That city would get the iron and produce lots of food, but it would produce few shields due to corruption. Perhaps it could grow strong through pop rushing.

I am not sure which is the better plan, moving Konigsberg or settling the city beyond it.

Am I hearing things, or did two-wheat Moscow just whisper that it would love to be the location of our future palace?

ran into problems submitting the save as well but it is up now.

It appears to be the correct one as the score is what I ended with.

It appears that the link in your turnlog is broken, Shoe. I found the correct save in the upload folder HERE. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo_SG002_BC1500_015.SAV) (Actually, there was about five of the files in there)

I really thought that RCP only worked on the same EXACT distances, but you guys seem pretty sure, so I'll take your word for it.

I'm off today, so I GOT IT.

Thanks for finding the right link.
I guess the others appeared when I got error messages.
thought that ment that they didn't upload.
looks like maybe it didn't upload correctly.
sorry about the confussion

I really thought that RCP only worked on the same EXACT distances, but you guys seem pretty sure, so I'll take your word for it.


If have 5.5 then it gets rounded down to 5. You can read the thread for all the gory details.

Do you think you understand corruption?

2) Corruption calculations do not use Euclidean geometry, nor unit movement points, to get distance. Instead, the distance is based on the shortest path, where each orthogonal move costs 1.0 and each diagonal move costs 1.5, and the total is rounded down to the nearest integer. Another way of writing the distance formula is Distance = floor(max(x,y) + 0.5*min(x,y)), where x and y are the distance in the NW/SE and NE/SW respectively. (Formula discovered by DaviddesJ, rounding discovered by Qitai)

>>>SAVE<<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo_SG002_BC1250_015.zip)

IHT – Well, I can MM Berlin to get a settler/growth in 3 using the forest chop that will be done next turn. That will get Berlin back on schedule. Change Leipzig to worker. Send settler pair due SE to claim iron. Damn we need more workers. Berlin is improved appropriately, but almost nothing else is. Will try to at least hook up the ivory and go from there. Change Hamburg to warrior.

Rename 03_Konigsberg to 03_Hamburg. I was gonna be way too confused otherwise. While we’re on the topic of renaming, I don’t see any real need to rename the units according to their city, does anyone else?

Couple of trades available, let’s see how we can work this.
Trade Cathy contact w/ Liz and writing for contact with Joan and wheel. (she must be almost done with writing, as it was seriously devalued)
Trade Joan contact with Liz for Masonry and 10g.
Trade Liz masonry and 5g for mysticism.

Now at tech parity or better w/everyone. According to Shoe’s log, Philo was started this turn, so I switch to Poly in 36 at 1 gpt. The closest horses are just outside Minsk, at least the closest ones we can see.

Ok, I think I’m ready to start now. :D

1475 bc (1) – Forest chop at Berlin reveals a BG. Since we don’t need it right now, I’m sending workers to the ivory. I waste a shield switching Konigsberg from spear to warrior, should’ve done that last turn.

1450 bc (2) – Hamburg warrior -> worker. Konigsberg warrior -> warrior. Send both warriors north, 1 for exploration close to home, the other for the barbs.

1425 bc (3) – Berlin settler -> settler. 05_Munich settled, start warrior. It’ll be some time before this city is productive. Bump sci to 80%, shaving ten turns off Poly.

1400 bc (4) – Leipzig worker -> warrior.

1375 bc (5) – Looks like the damn English beat me to the barbs by a couple turns.

1350 bc (6) – I spot some horses due NW of Berlin that I somehow missed before….

1325 bc (7) – Hamburg worker -> warrior. Konigsberg warrior -> barracks. 06_Heidelburg is founded and starts warrior, beating the Russians to the spices by one. :lol:

1300 bc (8) – The damn English beat me to another barb camp!! Except this time I had already killed one barb and they come out of the fog to finish them off. Liz has just become my “hated enemy”. Berlin settler -> settler.

1275 bc (9) - :lol: :lol: :lol: A barb horse kills an English scout. Leipzig warrior -> worker.

1250 bc (10) – I find another barb camp, and I don’t think there is anymore English in the area.

Recap: Berlin is back on pace, although I think I screwed up one turn somewhere in there, although I should have produced two and been half way through the third settler, which I did, the forest chop should have put me one turn ahead of that schedule. The roads to ivory and Konigsberg should both be done next turn, and lux rate should be lowered accordingly. The settler to the north is going one more N to where the warrior is. Kind of cramped location, but that’s what happens with RCP sometimes. The warrior due SW of Berlin is on the last viable spot for our first ring of RCP. Poly in 10 at –3gpt with 59 in the bank, but that will be helped when luxury rate drops. We should make every effort to hook up the spices ASAP, as that will help with happiness/score, but the spices are also buried in the jungle.

Firaxis score: 148

>>>SAVE<<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo_SG002_BC1250_015.zip)

EDIT - We're in first place!!! Well, so what if no one else has submitted a 1250 bc save? :lol:

Alamo - I hat all those formulae involved with figuring everything out, as I said, I'll just take your word for it, though it's good to know for the future. ;)

The two red spot indicate our last two city sites for first ring. Northern one can be settled in two turns.

Red arrow indicates horses. I would recommend using the warrior here to explore more.

Blue arrow indicates barb camp.

Excuse my poor artistic abilities please. :lol:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Alamo.JPG

Nice trades and nice turns, Sesn!

Good thing we beat that Russian settler to the spice - things could have come to blows early otherwise! Which way did they go?

I'll get in there and try to not mess things up too bad this evening.

Summary

FScore 186. One settler moving, one ready to plop down. Poly can be traded to Cathy or Joan if they discover something. Tribes near 04 to harvest, and 2 other known camps (see minimap at bottom). 2 roaming barbs on S border. Russian settler moving to the SE.

City race: Us 8, Liz 8, Cathy 6, Joan 4.

Start

- contact w/Cathy,Liz,Joan (no techs available)
- 6 towns (Liz 7 Cathy 5 Joan 4)
- Poly in 10, Sci/Lux 80/20
- 1 barb camp spotted, another near 04 (F3), close to Seljuk barb?
- Liz's border spotted
- Russian settler on the loose?
- stage C of settler factory

Settler Factory Stages:

A: Wheat+Game+BG+BG
B: no change
C: Move citizen from forest to mined grassland (now roaded BG)
D: no change
E: Settler out! Go to A

I didn't know the gov works like this even though it's turned off - good to know!

To do: Lux down next turn. Settler N then build. Next settler goes SWx5, most likely.

First I'll use 05,06 spears to explore for Russian settler. Cathy may be after our incense!

1225BC(1) - Ivory roaded - lux/sci to 10/90 (Poly 7). N_Warrior attacks camp - 1 hp for 25g! 05 spear climbs mountain for looksee - no Russian settler - whew! Free worker join irrigation crew. Warrior next to seljuk climbs NW mountain to look for magyars - no sign. 06 spear climbs mountain - Russian settler spotted just outside Moscow borders. S_Warrior heads NW to check for land bridge. Warrior way up N comes SW to look for Magyars. Warrior moves to game. Reg warrior moves to 04.

Russian settler founds town just outside Moscow?!

1200BC(2) - Vet Warrior escorts new settler to SWx5 spot. Factory back to A. Irrigation done - reset 03,04 citizens. Send 2 workers S for spice,iron. 3rd worker irrigates ivory. 07_Nuremberg founded, starts warrior. Leipzig worker moves to bg. O5 spear heads home. N_Warrior fortifies to heal. 06 spear heads home. Reg Warriors hunt Magyars. S_Warrior to NW. Found Magyar camp close to horses, on desert w/one 1 barb!

1175BC(3) - 05 builds warrior - start another. Warrior goes to hunt roaming barbs to the E. 05,06 spears home. S_Warrior NW. Magyar defeats reg warrior :( Other regs go for revenge! N_Warrior heads SE. Nothing to trade.

Barb horseman kills ivory worker near 03! :eek:

1150BC(4) - 02 builds worker, starts warrior. Worker to BG. 03 spear attacks horseman and wins - whew! Didn't want the ivory pillaged. N_Warrior to SE - not much more land to SE. S_Warrior to N - no obvious landbridge for Liz to cross. Factory stage C. No trades.

1125BC(5) - 03 builds warrior - starts another. Warrior heads to 01 for next settler. 03 spear goes home. Magyar barb shows up - first warrior passes him for camp. S_Warrior goes N - definitely no bridge, so we have the claim on northern lands (good barb farming if we can build more troops!) N_Warrior goes SW. Factory stage D. Cathy and Liz have MM, but no deal.

1100BC(6) - Lux/Sci to 0/80 (Poly in 3). Factory to A - settler heads for R=8 spot on river next to incense. Warrior chases. REg warriors hunt barbs. N_Warrior goes S - two cows! S_Warrior heads back SE. Last R=5 settler in position. No deal for MM.

1075BC(7) - 04 builds barracks, starts warrior. 06,07 build warriors - start more. One heads N, the other goes to 01. Workers finish mine, start road. Road on Berlin's BG finished - that can go into the factory rotation. Worker moves into jungle. Warriors move, except for one escorting Magyar. 08_Cologne founded - starts warrior. N_Warrior goes S - will start heading back. No deal for MM.

We now can build the FP.

1050BC(8) - Lux/Sci to 10/50 (Poly in 1). Factory to C. 02 builds warrior - starts another. Warrior heads for 01. Warriors escort settler or hunt barbs - Magyar camp in range. Still no deal for MM - Cathy just doubtful and not insulted like Liz - Cathy and Liz have not traded WMaps? Seljuk threatens 08.

Another Russian settler approaches...

1025BC(9) - Learn Poly, start CodeOfLaws. Lux/Sci 10/90 (CoL in 10). Liz offers MM+Tmap+70g for Poly, while Cathy offers MM+Wmap+30g. I want Liz's prized Wmap. We agree on MM+Wmap+21g=Poly+Wmap. So that's where Joan is hiding. I spy a barb camp way down S, and another far W, and a goody hut by StPetersberg! Cathy trades Wmap+41g=Wmap, so she can't buy Poly. Joan is always broke. Settler and escorts move. 02 workers finish road, move to irrigate grassland. Magyar camp cleared for 25g! S_Warrior moves to steal barb camp near Liz. Oops - hit page down and warrior goes off into the weeds. :cringe:

Liz demands Wmap+10g - one of those stupid demands for tribute that's easy to pay. We just traded Wmap! :lol:

1000BC(10) - Factory to A. Lux/Sci to 0/90. 02,03 build warriors - more started. Warriors go on patrol or escort - need more near S border. Russian settler is heading W - I bet it is heading for the ivory, so I'll head toward the R=8 spot on river SE of 05. Other settler reaches destination. F3 says Jute tribes near 04 (again) - not on map so just popped. FScore 186.

The minimap shows the known barb camps far SE and W. There is a big spot near 04 because there is another camp somewhere near 04. Note that we got Liz's world map.

Here's a closeup of the core situation. I believe the Russian settler is heading for the ivory, so we can claim that R=8 spot on the jungle river and solidify the SE border.

That minimap makes me happy. :)

If we can quickly build SE and west to close off the top, we van build a second core to the NW.

Good turns Alamo. Obviously we'll need more of a military preence during expansion than might be required otherwise. I rarely play with barbs this active, I'm surprised by how many we've seen in the last couple turns.

Sorry, I din't see your post, or I would have told you the settler went back to Russian lands.

I second the minimap = happiness sentiment, and I’m surprised by the number of barbs too.

More good turns team leader.

I can’t squeeze in my turns before work, but am looking forward to playing this evening around 5:30. If Cuivenien wants to swap I am willing, but his save must be posted and ready for me to download at 5:30! :)

I think we need to make a few long term decisions in order to play the next few rounds, please supply your thoughts:

Do we want to go Monarchy and maximize leader farming, or do we want to wait for Republic and maximize our economy and research? I would vote Republic, but am open for either. Alamo’s selection of COL seems to point to Republic too.

Do we want to build a second core of cities manually (probably to the NW), or do we want to establish our second core in foreign lands (probably Russia, but if the English have better terrain maybe there.) I prefer the quick, conquest route. We could build two stacks of 7 swords very quickly, but we would need to minimize research for a little while to pay for the upgrades. These AIs will probably never have much money so we will have to raise our own.

Shall we move Konigsberg or leave it be? It can build a settler and move now quite easily, unless something changed from PTW to Conquests that I don’t know about. One of our cities must start cranking out workers if we are ever to escape this tropical rainforest we were born in. The only choices appear to be a moved Konigsberg, or Leipzig rotating between workers and military.

Although, I expect Moscow could crank out quite a few workers. ;)

Yep, I chose CoL to get to Republic. I guess you would want Monarchy for a prolonged military campaign? We can wage 3 distinct wars w/o too much war weariness (hopefully).

Making a second core to the NW would make another RCP easier. Of course, a leader to rush a Palace/FP would be extremely helpful.

Go ahead and move 04 if you want. It already has a barracks, not that we will get the iron soon. There is a R=8 spot on the coast with floodplains, past 07.

I forgot to check - Is Liz the only one building a wonder? We could leave her alone until it is complete.:groucho:

If this was Conquests, I would say Republic wothout a doubt. Since it's PTW, I don't know if Republic gives any unit support?

I would rather build the second core manually, then we could build a ring at RCP 4 or 5 and have a truly effective second core. Taking over AI cities is quicker, but won't be as efficient as we'll have odd spacing and no RCP.

I would advocate a fairly surgical strike to take Moscow. This would have two benefits. As BF said, would be a nice worker factory. It would also hamstring Russia for the rest of the game and we could mop them up at our leisure. A similar strike on London may be useful. Generally, at this point in the game I like to cripple my close neiughbors, without sacrificing expansion if at all possible.

I think Konigsberg should remain. It's not a horrible spot, just bad for a worker factory. I think we would be better off spewing workers from either Moscow, or another city at RCP 8 or so that would grab some flood plains.

BTW - I've already been scolded for this in another SG, though not by Cuivienen. He is a she. She is also a high school student (and up in Sesn1) so I doubt she'll have a chance to play before 6 pm. It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong though ....

I would vote for the quick conquest route as well.
for research I usually go Monarchy, so I think it would be interesting to pursue the republic option

as for Konigsberg I vote move it. I would not have settled there if I had realized that the game ignores numbers to the right of the decimal point

after reading the previous post I like the Idea of leaving Konigsberg and taking Moscow for the worker fact.

Manually buiding second core with hitting our close neighbors also sounds like the best option

Thanks Sesn, and sorry about that Cuivienen! It looks like we have preferences for war, "somewhat" war and peace.

I want to propose an argument for bringing the full :hammer: early: please feel free to shoot it full of holes!

We are behind, and some of the teams ahead of us are very experienced and talented. If we go the peaceful expansion route, they will maintain their lead or increase it. They will definitely make few mistakes, if any at all. I think that means the only way to move ahead of them is too introduce a luck factor, and hope for the best. The number one way to introduce luck into Civ is through Great Leaders. This plan requires two leaders, but three would be ideal. War allows us to play to our strength: the militaristic trait, and getting three leaders is very possible for a militaristic Civ.

The plan:

We go to war as soon as we can get a few Swords and horses into the jungles and mountains of the Russian border, preferably in places where they can attack troops in the open. The horses are important, because their retreat ability makes it a bit easier to promote and get leaders. Research goes to way down in order to pay for warrior upgrades. We also set research to Literature because it takes the AI so long to research it. We don’t wait to have the forces to take Russian cities, because we want them to keep producing troops to promote ours. If we get a leader very quickly, we can rush the pyramids, but this is not an integral part of the plan.

We do not bring the other civs into an alliance against the Russians: let them come at us if they want. This will enable all three civs to continue to trade techs and do our research toward Republic for us.

As our reinforcement troops arrive, we take two Russian cities. The first critical leader will be used to rush the Great Library if it is already available, if not, we can rush the Forbidden Palace in the Russian city of our choice. We continue to fish for leaders as we take more Russian cities.

The second critical leader will be used to rush the GL, or the FP, whichever we did not get with the first leader. We take enough Russian cities to surround our new second core, and then we get a few cities from the Russians for peace. Hopefully, this final military push will get us the third Great Leader. If not, we attack one of the other civs to get it. The Great Library should have given us The Republic by this point.

As soon as the third leader appears, we make peace with anyone we are at war with and revolt to Republic. On the turn anarchy ends, we rush Sun Tsu if it is available. If not, we rush the Great Wall. Either will kick off our Golden Age, which we will get the full benefit from because we are in a Republic with two productive cores.

If we get the Great Leaders we need, I think we may well "luck" ourselves into first place after our Golden Age. :groucho: If we don’t get them…well, we may be eating with a wooden spoon. :(

What do you guys think?

I will definitely leave Konig where it is. On Republic Sesn, IIRC it has no unit support, but the support cost is reduced to one. It was generally considered the best overall government unless waging constant war for a long time.

No unit support in Republic, but extra gold for every tile worked. The decreased corruption and gold generally make it better than Monarchy, as long as wars do not drag out.

About that Russian settler: Now I'm not so sure about its intentions. It could have gone straight E to the ivory instead of heading towards us. We need 6 turns to settle, but they only need 4 to be annoying. Maybe the spear in 05 should go out and harass them.

Russia is a tempting target, but England is our biggest competitor.

Edit:

The war plan is a bold one, but it is possible to have a long war and get NO leader at all. We should have a contingency plan, and a pre-set trigger for switching to it. How many turns before we consider peace? What if we wind up fighting all of them in a serious war (as opposed to settler-rush)? What if other civs start settling our continent?

We are pretty much in the race. Our line is almost as steep as the leader's - we just have a 10-turn delay. If we keep the 5 turn factory running we will probably catch up. If a couple other cities build some settlers then we could easily go ahead.

So how do we want to win? Going for the variant means keeping good relations and taking the UN (or hoping the builder calls a vote for us). That pretty much means two things - growing a big population and only attacking people we intend to eliminate. Growing big means expansion, which we are doing pretty well right now. A war will be a distraction and risk damaging our reputation.

Joan will probably be friendly and harmless. We could give her a tech every so often when fighting Cathy or Liz to keep her out of the war. Who knows - she may even build the UN for us. :mischief:

Before going any furthur one question must be answered in a vote.

The question is: Are we going to try victory by the sponsored variant?

This has two impacts. First, if we are, then A) GL is useless as we can outresearch the ai ourselves, and B) we want to keep the ai at a reasonable size so they can contribute to the tech pace. This is where my "hamstring" comes into play.

If not, then we can go for an early conquest or domination, in which case BF's plan is better.

I'll agree that it's difficult to have a plan that requiresthe use of MGL's. We'd probably get none when we wanted them, but then get five straight in some small skirmish down the line.

FWIW, my vote goes to the sponsored variant.

before voting I would like to be sure that I understand the sponsered variant.

my current understanding is that if we use the variant then victory can only be acheived by diplomacy, and we are forbidden to build the UN.
also I think there was something about not being at war when the vote was called.

if so it will be interesting.

willing to go with either set of victory conditions, no preferences unless I have misunderstand the Variant

The variant is simply to win by UN vote without building the UN yourself.

A proposal to exclude the 'diplo dogpile' victory was briefly discussed, but not many people commented so it was dropped. Basically you can misbehave all you want if you can capture the UN and then get everyone MA/MPP'd against the other nominee(s) when a vote comes up.

There is No bonus for achieving the variant, so I could go for a bit of warmongering to see if we get lucky. I just want to have a fall-back plan when those pesky AI aren't grateful when we liberate their towns. :saiyan:

So the fallback plan is something like this: Eliminate the AI with most desireable lands, make nice with the survivors, and build-build-build to make sure we're ellligible for the first UN vote. A bad rep from an early war can be repaired, so now is the time to exercise power, if we are so inclined.

that being the case war sounds like the better option to me

Remember that although there is no bonus for the sponsored variant, that you are only elligible for the gold laurel by following the variant. The awards will be put against your name forever, and will make up part of your record in the Pantheon of Heroes (or something very similar - bu I make no secret of wanting it to be the same table).

Whether this kind of thing interests you is up to you of course, but if you are going to play this regularly then it might provide a competitive element that improves the fun factor.

Personally, I'm waiting for players to start being traded between teams. ;)

If there is NO bonus, then why would we bother, other than a last resort?

Personally, I want to get the highest score possible. On this map size, that is most easily achieved by early conquest. Although milking could be close, I have no desire to keep passing around the game to each milk for ten turns.

I'm sure at least a portion of the teams will be going for the variant, obviously excluding team Akots, so we would have less competition going for conquest.

You know, no matter how hard I try, I can't suppress the warmonger within. :rocket:

EDIT: MB, if you're still lurking, will the teams get shuffled automatically, or will they stay basically the same next month. Personally, and nothing against you guys, I vote for shuffling as I like to interact with as many different members as possible here.

EDIT2: We all seem to immediately lean towards abandoning the variant. Does that mean we'd have less competition if we do pursue it?

The variant incentive is bragging rights, and that gold laurel. :smug:

If we get to a milking situation then I'm sure we could increase the turns. I have never done a milk run, so that could be interesting - but we'd better start arming for war soon! For the variant we would need 2 survivors, and fission early enough for one of them to actually build the UN.

My vote is to fill out our R=8 cities then start arming for war! :evil:

We can still build a few settlers to claim land. I have a sneaking suspicion that galleys are already on their way.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I want the route with the greatest chance of coming out on top. If we think only two teams are going variant route, then maybe we have a good chance at that route. If we decide the variant will be the preferred victory, then start whooping ass and taking names ASAP! Not sure how we could decide though. It occurred to me if we were a general sample, and we all leaned towards non-variant, then the same could be true of many others.

Bah. I think I'm just going in circles here.

I can't wait to go home and have a beer now. It's hot and I don't function well in the heat. :beer:

@ Shoe: Actually, you can now be at war when the UN vote is taken. That idea died because Akots team would not be able to do always war + the variant, which they stated they wanted to do before we started. That was the way things stood last time I looked.

Sesn, I am with you and want to win by the variant.

In my experience, two very strong AIs push the tech pace much more than several weak ones, so I still think full scale war as opposed to limited conflict is a better way to get a high score and win with the variant. Since we can declare a war right before the vote and sign alliances against the other candidate, I don’t think wars will hurt us. I agree with Sesn that the Great Library is useless to us in tech. Not in that it is useless however. It is the only way for us to kick off the Golden Age until Newton’s University at the end of the middle ages. It would also be helpful for building a very powerful, large military quickly, because we could divert all our commerce to upgrades.

Very good point on the contingency plan, Alamo. How about this: it is kind of a middle ground between Sesn’s “hamstring” and my all out war. We don’t stop the settler factory and keep expanding. We still build a few workers. We only dedicate our other cities to the war. Essentially, we would be delaying the building of our temples, markets and such, but in exchange we would be getting cities by conquest and getting an excellent shot at generating a few leaders.

I don’t think the AIs can hurt us even if they all attack together. In fact, it would probably help us get leaders, because we have better victory odds when their troops are out in the field and not fortified in a city. The initial stack-attack is all we would need to be prepared for.

If you guys want to go this route then I will decrease research and switch to Literature. If not (or I don’t hear back), then I will just stay the course during my turns.

My post is nearly obsolete, as everyone changed their minds while I wasn't looking. :(

The problem is that we can't build fast enough to do everything, as opposed to the AI who are getting significant discounts.

It might actually be easier to win the variant by playing nice with the neighbors, since there's plenty of land to settle. We could pit our side of the world against the rest of the world, and then 'borrow' the UN from whichever of our friends builds it first.

Well, I seem to be arguing both sides to great effect! :lol:

To prepare to bring the :hammer: or not to bring the :hammer:. That is my only question for my turns.

I fear if we wait to get our RCP 8 cities before we arm, we will lose the chance for the Great Library/Great Wall combo Golden Age.

I don’t think the AIs can hurt us even if they all attack together.

England alone can outproduce us. They just have lousy tactics.

I support your proposal:

We don’t stop the settler factory and keep expanding. We still build a few workers. We only dedicate our other cities to the war.

We still need several turns to get iron hooked up, too.

I'm playing now. Interesting stuff about players and trading and such. An NFL style draft might be fun. MB could pick the leaders, then they would have a lottery for picking order, and then pick their players.

I'm playing now. Interesting stuff about players and trading and such. An NFL style draft might be fun. MB could pick the leaders, then they would have a lottery for picking order, and then pick their players.

Now THAT's quite a concept -- but you get back to the schoolyard days and who would be picked last. (probably me)

EDIT: FWIW, I'm good with the compromise proposal also.

As for player ranking, there are different skills. There would have to be some scenarios set up to measure people's stats.

tacticians - 5 star generals
milkers - accountants
strategist - absent-minded professor
quick starters - cultivaters
diplomats - George Sr. (but with our military, who needs 'em?)

I'm not sure where I fit in. I don't see a category for someone who, blindly at times, just likes to bash people.

I've always been told I should be an accountant, but I've never even tried milking.

People-basher - that could fit in somewhere. I just ran out of ideas for that train of thought.

If you are good with nit-picky details (unlike me), then maybe you should try a quick-start challenge. A milk run is rather lenghty, so I wouldn't wish it upon the average fun-loving gamer.

BTW, as of 1000BC Cathy, Joan AND Liz are building wonders - Pyramids and Oracle, in capital cities. If we play our cards right we could get 3 wonders for the low price of 1 conquering division.

I like free wonders!! Those are the best kind.

Pyramids would be especially good, if we can capture it soon.

What exactly is the quick start challenge anyhow? is it like a scenario where you start with a certain number of cities, or something similar? I don't like those RoR scenarios and such, because I don't have any built up knowledge of the game. The first few turns take me so long to familiarize myself with units and tech trees etc that I lose interest rapidly.

Quick start challenge used to be a GOTM add-on where people would play 4000BC-1000BC and compare results. There are several threads where people discussed the results.

Here is one thread QSC20. You could get the GOTM20 game and follow along the discussions and learn a bunch about getting started. This is good advice that I usually don't follow, of course. :p

Summary: Wonders good, especially when we don’t build them! Barbs bad, especially in great numbers (don’t worry we haven’t hit the age-change explosion yet, but there’s a bunch of them nonetheless).

1000 BC, turn 0 Checking it all out, and it looks good. The military adviser says our military is strong compared to everyone else. Moscow and Paris are both building the Pyramids. Lizzie is building the Oracle. All builds are in their capitols. Hmmm, weak militaries and all devoting their capitols to wonders. Hmmm indeed. I look back through everyone’s turn logs to see if anyone logged when the builds started. Doesn’t look like it, so I am guessing they started them all before Sesn’s last turn. In examining their terrain I suspect Paris is only generating about 5spt and Moscow 5spt. I think Lizzy is probably at 8spt. I decide to establish an Embassy with Russia for two reasons 1) I don’t want to stop Cathy from building our Pyramids if she is close (even though I doubt she is), and 2) I want to know if she and Lizzy go to war.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2AlamoMoscow.jpg

I notice Cathy has ivory already hooked, so Alamo is probably right about that Russian settler causing problems, so I do send out the spear from 05. Switch 03 and 05 to workers: 03 because they have the excess food and 05 because he is worthless until a few jungles get cleared.

Has anyone else noticed that all the primo terrain is outside RCP 8? Horses, cows, wheat, BGs. Sheesh.

I decide to switch to Literature, due in 13, gpt +1. I hope no one gets mad at me for that, but I am doing it for two reasons: 1) The computer usually researches it dead last in the ancient age, and 2) considering that Lizzy has a high production city and is already building the Oracle, she just might build the Library for us if we give it to her. All we have to do is control wonders that meet our Golden Age requirements at the time we build any wonder to go into a GA, and maybe Lizzy will build the Great Library for us, eliminating the need for one Great Leader to reach our GA.

975 BC, 1 Switch 02_Leipzig to a worker. Kill a few barbs. Switch 06_Heidelburg to a worker. Found 09_Hannover south of Incense. Continue settler pair to Alamos jungle/river spot.

950 BC, 2 Build a worker and a few warriors, order up two more workers and one warrior. Our warrior on the NW peninsula (past the horse) spots an unfortified barb but dies attacking him on a grassland. One warrior heads to Berlin because I have to raise lux to 10% on this turn. Trade around world maps. I spot the Russian settler with our spear from 05. He is heading east, but I am not sure where, maybe the ivory. I can’t catch him wherever he is going, and if he founds where he is there will be too much overlap with our proposed city site.

925 BC, 3 Cathy starts the Colossus in Smolensk. Man, she is leaving herself wide open to invasion. Spot a barb hut on the southern tip of the NW peninsula. It is the Jute tribe.

900 BC, 4 Aarrgh, the Russians found Tblissi and screw up our proposed city site. Switch three cities to a Rax. Spot barbs north of 03. Two workers begin roading the iron. I will clear the jungle to the NW so we can connect/disconnect it easily whenever we wish. Settler built, and I send him to the desert in the middle of the FP to the west. Debated founding on the river, but the desert blocks Lizzy better. I sent Berlin’s spear with it because that area has lots of barb activity. The warrior stays home, and another will join him soon. I send the settler Cathy blocked back north to build a boat town. Lux back to 0%. No trade available, and the military adviser makes like a broken record about Jutes near Konigsberg. Yeah, I know, how about the other barbs?!

875 BC, 5 The Jutes have two horses and my warrior is in deep trouble. These barbs are a pain. The Gepid tribe to the East has horses too. Another warrior in jeopardy and I fortify on a hill for now. I will give the horse one turn to attack me then move in. A worker finishes irrigating a grassland. (insert weed) Starts to mine. Glad I switched off COL, because Liz and Cathy just got it. Trade Cathy Poly for COL and her maps, she has no money to sweeten the pot.

850 BC, 6 Two barb warriors, one to the north and one to the northeast, move off further north, away from us. Is there any reason for a barb to do that unless someone has landed on our continent??? Warrior kills a horse. Lizzy got the hut we were trying to pilfer from next to her and she founds Oxford on the spot.

825 BC, 7 Two jute horses attack our warrior and promote him to elite (1hp damage). He moves next to the village. I forgot to move Berlin off the forest last turn, so we get a 5 turn settler. That is two weeds in one turn. Not good. Sorry.

800 BC, 8 Kill two barb horses, but there are lots more where he came from, especially to the east. Two workers start roading the spices. Found 10_Bremen in the western FP. Our elite warrior destroys the Jutes and then salts the ground upon which they spawned. Lit due in 3.

775 BC, 9 Late settler complete. More barb horses appear to the east. We attack the Gepid encampment to the SE and our warrior is destroyed. Horses, horses, my kingdom for horses!!! Iron is hooked up and I upgrade two vet warriors to swords for 40g each. I will upgrade another as soon as I can get a vet to a barracks. I have to bump up research to keep Lit due in 2. I think it is worth it if we can get the AI to build the GL for us.

750 BC, 10 Oh no. No. NOOOOOO! The English complete the Oracle. One turn before we get Lit. A pox on all English!!!

Our wonder-building opponents will be ripe for the picking in around 15 turns if we keep building military and start raising cash on minimum research. Of course, we wouldn’t wa