R&L-> yes, she landed a settler/warrior pair on my 2nd to last turn. not really a powerhouse spot and we secured the incense with our nearby town. russia has 0 potential atm.

If we decide we want to go for conquest. Let's just take Joan and Cathy out.

650 – 0
set prefs. Check builds – all looking good for city development / culture and the few mil units. Change Nottingham from court to Library. Change Brighton fom musket in 55 to library in 35. Change Coventry from court in 27 to settler in 10 (to resettle peninsula an harvest whales to SW). Tempted top drop research by 10% to 40%, lengthening race to metallurgy by 1 turn, and going from -16gpt to +47gpt, and difference of +425g for 1 turn.. We can wait, but hold off under the idea that 1 turn and 425g now becomes much more valuable later.

IBT: English galley near Liverpool. French ask us to leave Cherbourg. We tell France to get out.
Kreuzberg market > court in 12. Lyons market > court in 8. Besancon court > market in 17. Dijon harbor > university in 8. Denydberg market > university in 8. New Leipzig worker > worker in 10.

660 – 1
<save>
Just read Grahamiam’s notes again: disband units, get gold / slower research. Elect to leave it at -14gpt fpr 4 turns, and then slow down on MT.

Japanese Galley NE of Liverpool.

IBT: English galley returns to Liverpool. Russians are denied new WM. Berlin settler > university in 15. Oppeln market > university in 9. Frankfurt market > university in 10. Stuttgart court > market in 15. Bad G harbor > knight. N Koenigsberg Library > temple.

670 – 2

IBT: Second Japanese galley comes S toward Liverpool.

680 – 3
Koln founded in far North, > library in 40.

IBT: Rouen knight > court in 20.

690 – 4
Disband sword in Bonn, saves 4 turns on build. So many elite swords – hate to disband them…

IBT: Metallurgy > MT.
Milwaukee library > court in 20. Marseilles market > knight in 10.

700 – 5
Disband sword in Newcastle, shave 5 turns.

IBT: Hannover market > court in 10. N Berlin library > court in 27.

710 – 6
Disband sword in Bonn, saving 3 turns on court build.
Disband sword in Newcastle saving 7 turns on build, down to 3.

IBT: Paris university > knight in 6. Rheims market > knight in 5. Dortmund market > knight in 9. Leibnizgarten market > court in 16.

720 – 7

IBT: Chartres court > market in 15.

730 – 8
<save>

Three more to play. WIll finish tonight.

730 – 8
<save>
China offering WM, 160g + 64gpt (whole treasury) for Chemistry, and I’m sure that England would too (103g +~1gpt). Hold back to slow Chinese move toward Cav. Next player can investigate further if desired. I’ve concluded that India will not be our main opponent over there, and that it will be China – they have a big tech lead, $ and large cities.

Poznan founded, > harbor in 40.

IBT: Lyons court > knight in 6. Newcastle library > market in 100. Dijon university > knight in 6. Denydberg university > knight in 5.
Treasury warning. English begin Sistine in Oxford (we’re racing all the main players).

740 – 9

IBT: GA ends. Insufficient funds disbands a worker. :blush: :banghead:
Munich university > knight in 14. Hamburg riots > add clown, but needs MM.

750 - 10
Change research to 30%, +33gpt, MT in 2 turns.

Leaving military unit moves for next player.
Settler is in place to found Rummelsburg.
Need to check trade opportunities, like for chemistry - should discuss first!
Cities need MM.
Sorry about the worker!
No pictures.

Nice turns R&L, don't worry about the worker, we can build another. imho, the chem's trade to china isn't too bad. i have a feeling they'll still go for Astronomy and we could get some gold to upgrade the knights.

ok, now we need Astronomy for caravels so we can start amassing our invasion fleet. we may want to build a Military Acadamy too so we can crank out some army's. If we're going conquest, then we'll need to sell out on it soon. Research will stop at magnetism so there's no need to go for Copernicus unless we get it in a cascade. then, we turn off research and rush-build longbows, switching to cav's to speed the builds.

Next player may want to pop russia/england/france with any remaining elite swords for leader hunting. imho, the order should be France then Russia, then England once the treaty is up (just so we can divide and conquer later via MA's).

edit: how's the core looking? we got enough workers there clearing jungle?

I built a few more workers, but the progress was just too slow for my taste. I took to developing already cleared tiles instead of clearing jungle. We also need to start building up the second core around Paris. I didn't notice until late that we had already built the FP there, and so couldn't pursue it as much as I'd have liked.

From the posted scores, it looks like Team Kunnigas has already won (probably by conquest) in 980 AD. Since they are 237 points ahead at the 650 AD mark we're not likely to catch them for high overall score. Looks like our best shot for an award is to get to the domination limit as fast as possible while pushing science to the max. We'll need some AI research assistance to get a top score. From the looks of it, Japan is the weak sister over there and should probably be our primary target. On our side of the pond, England needs to go as I doubt she'll ever be anything but furious. Russia is probably a keeper both for tech reasons and we've already improved her attitude to annoyed. We should probably start gifting here a luxury & a tech every 20 turns to help improve her demeanor. France is a tossup, she was still furious during my last turn, but then we haven't done anything yet to improve that. We could try gifting her a meaningless tech or an extra luxury (or both) and see if that't make her happier.

I's rather see India build the UN. There's easier military access from Japan and if allied with us, China might not be the other voter. We'll need to time the war with India very carefully to avoid the vote happening before we are ready.

As for our own island, any size 6 city should be building workers. Let's get every city to it's population max. Lots of libraries, marketplaces and harbors. I'd like to see us go for Banking, then Economics (for Smith's) to make those trading improvements maintenance free. Setup a pre-build for Smith's and maybe one for Bach's (don't research Music Theory) get it in trade. We should probably make the China Chemistry deal as we want to push science for everyone. Hopefully they'll be researching something of value to us, unlike COTM 1 where I gifted 3 AI from Steam Power to the odern Age hoping they'd help speed my return to the stars and I'll I got for my gifts was Rocketry (an age bonus tech), Facism & Communism), with the way they were researching Amphibious Warfare & Advanced Flight would have been next.

ok, we go for un. russia is the only civ on our continent worth keeping. all others are taking up space, reducing our score.

one other note, do not be shy about getting cities other than Berlin building settlers. you can even rush build in corrupt cities after 10 turns or a chop to get them cheap. maybe it's time for Berlin to develope and help us out.

So do we want to continue with conquest or go for the diplo win?

The variant calls that we take the UN from the builder and then a call a vote the next time a round.

I appears that if we hold the UN the vote will be between us and China. So what we should probably do is somehow get China to build the UN and plan on capturing it. With all our allies.

The other option: Domination. Mapstat say we're 695 tiles from Domination. There are 550 unclaimed tiles out there to be claimed.

England - 41
France - 32
Russia 21
Japan - 328

So we could reach domination by settling the rest of the world and taking out Japan.

Do you think we could do that in the next 20-30 turns?

Edit - BTW I've got it. I will hold off playing until we have a plan. This pretty important, so we all need to be in on the decision.

what's our military look like? imho, we'll need at least 20 cav to start on Japan. say 21 with 7 caravels. therefore, we need more galleys for upgrading iirc. we should actually try for around 10 so we can do an effective ship chain. We'll also need good roads to the East coast as that appears to be the shortest route to Japan, or is the best way NW of England? looks like that's the sea lane as there appears to be a lot of ocean between the east coast and Japan.

the army has 3 units in it already so it cannot be transported. to save us from getting slaughtered on landing, try to sign an RoP with India so we have a safe place to amass troops. we may also want to stop disbanding swords now so we have more troops for support as well as something to take out France and England. Looks like Japan is basically divided in half geographicly so if we take the indian half quickly, then we should be in very good shape.

looks like a lot of fun :)

R&L just completed 750 AD (needs to be posted to the submission thread) and TK won in 980 AD, that's 23 turns and since they were ahead of us, we'd probably have to do it in 20 or less.

I do have a sneaky way to do speed up the our domination.

1. Take out Russia, France & England using only Elite units, if we get a GL save him.
2. Load up 2-3 boats full of cavalry (& the GL)
3. Put the rest of our offensive troops in a throw away city
4. Land the cavalry in Japan and take a city
5. Use the GL to build a palace in that new city
6. Gift the throwaway city to China
7. Suddenly all the troops are now in the capital city and ready for assault on Japan

Not the most ethical move, but if pre-1000 AD palace moves are ok, then one we might consider. Though I think I'm the first to use them magical transporter, it's not something that I advocate.

With all that said, I'm leaning towards a UN victory. I think we can catch the other team ahead of us (we're in 3rd at last check) if we push population & science once we reach the domination limit. Remember that we'll need to take the UN, so that'll be a few tiles we need accomodate for once the war begins.

I did submit it, and it told me that it accepted it. Obviously, I'll have to do it again.

I have the save. I'll post it for him.

Edit - never mind, R & L is all over it. :D

Well, we're still in third, but have lost a few steps in the race to catch Alan's & Kuningas' teams.

Nice turns gahamiam and Rowandlive :)

Do we want to go for UN? Everything is fine with me. I have no personal preferences. But it seems to be easier to get an award if we go for UN.

OK, here's my plan for my ten turns.

1. Take out France using elite swords.
2. Build settlers => for settling everything that is left
3. Build galleys
4. Build knights/cavs
5. After MT => Astronomy

About 12 hours till I start, so speak up if you don't like it.

sounds like a good short term plan. you may want to find the sea route that we'll most likely take and then rally all the cav and caravels there. also, it'll help if you rename the caravels to aid in ship hopping.

You may want to add Liz to the list, since the 20-turn peace will end shortly. Unless we need to keep her around for a UN win. If indeed we are going to pursue the UN, then maybe we should keep Joanie around and develop a more concrete plan.

Can we get some discussion on this please.

What is the advantage to taking France and England out, other than clearing the landmass? I would think that they're ideal candidates for cozying up to now for a vote in the later game, rather than trying to work with people with whom we've only had more recent relations and possibly wars. Perhaps they won't get over having their butts kicked, and so are better removed now? I'll spend some time digging through the attitude adjustment list, and see what I can come up with by 1:00 PM EDT.

imho, the only other civ on our continent worth keeping are the Russians. England may never come around to liking us and the same with France. At least with Russia, we'll make some tech deals here and there. If we're coy, we could even ally Russia vs. England and France to gain some good will. Otherwise, they're just taking up space/points away from us and will be very unlikely to vote for us. The vote can go as follows:
China - china
India - us
us - us
russia - us

clear majority wins. japan must be eliminated as well as england and france. if we let them stay, then thats 3 votes that could go against us, resulting in a stalemate.

re: gifts to russia: did we already gift her a tech? if not, please don't do it at all till just before the vote. even a tech for a WM is not considered a gift so when we want to get her to the IA, please trade. iirc, only 1 gift of about 200g value will have a -10 (good) effect and we should use those points just before the vote, not 1000yrs before, letting the goodwill wear off. any more gifts above the 200g value will have zero effect.

edit: one other note, the French cities are near the FP so they may not be completely corrupt.

I thought we could keep giving Cathy a present every 20 turns or so to increase her affection for us. I'll have to go back and read alexman's article.

I thought we could keep giving Cathy a present every 20 turns or so to increase her affection for us. I'll have to go back and read alexman's article.
you can only gift so much (200g or equiv), after that, more gifts don't do anything. however, each trade does give a little bump. if we can get her to cautious, we'd be in very good shape.

I was thinking of gifting her a tech and a luxury every 20 turns. We can use the luxury as a timer on when to give the next tech. We're going to gift her to the Industrial & Modern ages anyway, why do it all in the same turn, when we could help sway her vote our way with timed gifts.

let me get the quote from bamspeedy that explains gifting. if i read that correctly, you only get a bump in attitude 1 time for 200g (or equiv). any more gifting has zero effect on attitude.

link is here -> http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=44999

the quote is below:
Gifts
-1 for each 10 gold worth of techs/gold you donate, up to a maximum of -10 (100 gold). This bonus decays at about 10 gold/turn. The larger of a gift you give above 100 gold, then longer you will get to keep the -10 maximum pts. Example: Giving them 1,000 gold will keep them happy for 100 turns, 500 gold would be 50 turns. gpt donations are added on immediately, but the effect of it may disappear before the deal is done.

I guess i was wrong about maximum per game. But there are many things going back and forth in that thread so it's hard to tell what the conclusion is.

Thank you all for the discussion. OK, I concur on taking out France and England, but keeping Russia around. When conquering Japan, it may not hurt to gift a city to India, if it is one that they lost (I haven't looked).

I'm at the end of turn nine, I just ran out of time. I'll have the game up by 16:00 gmt tomorrow for Leibniz. Let's play an old TedJackson game, which of these things happened? (There may be more than one correct answer):

A) War with Japan
B) We held a funeral for Joan
C) We were sneak attacked by Liz
D) Liz sack four of our cities
E) Liz is a settler in boat
F) We built two wonders

Find out tomorrow in your favorite soap opera, "As the Cavalry Gallops."

I'm hoping for B,E & F

A. I don't think we're in position to be at war with Japan (but the one city up there will eventually be ours)
B. Should it be Taps or Amazin' Grace
C. Liz would only have Longbows (and not many of them), so unless we've left a couple undefended cities this shouldn't happen
D. See C
E. 10+ Elite swords against spears doesn't sound so good for Lizzy
F. At last check we had Sistine going and Bugs probably got a GL for either Bach's or Copernicus

well, if calvary are indeed galloping, then D didn't happen. i go with C and E with the hope that F is correct as well :)

I'm betting B, C and E, and there's a good chance for A, as Japan had sent a string of galleys over (see my notes). Liz did have a few units, and we did have a few undefended cities, but I don't see how we would have let her walk to them, since the closer cities had elite swords in them. Maybe F as well, but only if we got a leader.

The correct answers are B, E, & F.

Pre-flight – 695 tiles to domination.

Found New Crackerburg. There isn’t an old crackerburg, but that sounded cool.

Declare war on Joan. Kill two spears in Amiens with nearby knights.

I gift Cathy Engineering and she becomes polite to us.

:love: “Yes, dear some day we’ll need your vote.” :love:

Now I know how a politician feels.

Change Dortmund to a galley. Change New Berlin, Warwick, Dijon to a settler.

Sell Chemistry to Mao for Astronomy, 34G & WM. Switch our palace pre-build to Cop’s, due in five. Switch Paris over to a Palace pre-build.

IBT – A French sword steps forward from Cherbourg.
Konigsberg: temple=> settler
Coventry: settler=>court
New Leipzig: worker=>caravel
Get a second story on the palace

1. 760 AD - @ Amiens – Kill the spear with a knight, city autorazes, two slaves.
Kill a French Sword with an outrageous accent.

Change Denydburg to a settler.

IBT – Mil Trad comes in Physics next. Drop science down to 10% for some cash.
Berlin: univ=> settler
Oppeln: univ=> settler
Dortmund: caravel=>caravel
Brandenburg: Musket=>settler
New Konigsberg: temple=>settler

2. 770 AD – Kill a spear at Grenoble. Knight is promoted, city falls, two slaves.

Kill one spear at Cherbourg

IBT – Frankfurt: Univ=>settler
Heidelburg: Market=>cav
Dijon: Settler=>cav
Denydburg: settler=>settler

3. 780 AD – Attack Cherbourg, and autoraze it.
We have destroyed the fledgling French. [dance]

Upgrade a knight for 10G.

Spend 28G establishing an embassy in Kyoto. Their Sistine is due in 28 turns. They are running 40% science. Two horses and an iron hooked up. Four luxes. Garrison: a pike and two spears

The Indians are building their chapel in Calcutta, pop 6, on the coast with three improved tiles. That shouldn’t be competition.

Spend 76G on an embassy in Beijing. They’ll have Sistine done in 7. :mad: seven pikes, and a worker. Horses, iron, and three luxes.

Paris is switched to a cav. Avingnon goes back to the palace pre-build. Cologne is switched to Cop’s at a loss of 100 shields.

Spend 56G rushing a library in Bratwurst.

IBT – Kreuzberg: court=> settler
Warwick: settler=>court
Cologne: Cop’s=> Univ.
Bratwurst: library=>court
3rd & 4th stories are added to the palace

4. 790 AD – Move settlers towards open spots. Upgrade two knights to cav.

Hurry Besancon’s market for 52G.

Sell Cathy our WM for WM & 13G. That woman still hasn’t built any roads :smoke:

One turn left on the peace treaty with Liz. I wonder if she has plans with those units on the border?

The Japanese have a city on the northeast island.

Increase science to 30% to get Physics in 11.

IBT – Berlin: settler=> settler
Paris, Rheims: cav=>cav
Besancon: Market=>settler
The east wing gets a second story.

5. 800 AD – Found Karasulburg. Found New Heidelburg. Maneuvering a force of cavs towards England.

Spend 27G on a Russian Embassy. Note many bugs are planted in the walls. Cathy has a garrison of 5 spears. Is building an archer and doesn’t have any workers. Pop 2, zero growth. She won’t ever found another city. What a nice pet.

We need a road to Russia so we can sell her some luxes.

IBT – Liz wants to trade WM. No thanks. She wants to renew the peace treaty, I tell her which bodily orifice she can put her peace treaty into.
A single archer attacks and is killed by our swordsman.
Moscow riots. WW already? Scroll ahead fixes two other unhappy cities.
Salzburg: Market=>worker

6. 810 AD – Found New Nuremberg.
Daffy attacks a wandering English Pike and turns into Barbarosa. Nottingham is switched to the Sistine Chapel and Barbarosa builds it with a wave of his hand.

Found New Cologne.

Two knights overlooking Liverpool cross the Mersey and attack the city. One retreats and another kills the defending pike. A spear still stands.

Kill two spears with swords.

IBT - Two swords are killed by English LBs

Nottingham builds the Sistine Chapel. Starts temple.
Oppeln: settler=>cav
New Frankfurt: Library=>worker

7. 820 AD – The English jungle slows down our cavs. Rush a sword in Brighton.

IBT – A sword kills one LB and is killed by the next.
York: Library=>court
Kreuzberg, Frankfurt: settler=>settler
Canterbury riots.
Brighton: sword=>sword
Denydberg: settler=>settler
New Konigsberg: settler=>cav

8. 830 AD – Drop off a cav on Northeast island for exploring.

Move next to Oxford. That will fall next turn.

Sell Metallurgy to China for Banking & 87G

IBT – Brighton Falls to the English.
York riots.
Lyons: cav=>cav
Caterbury: court=>library
Marseilles: cav=>court
Hannover: court=>cav (Leibniz inspects our new building and says it is very nice :D )
Dortmund: caravel=>caravel
Stuttgart: market=>cav

9. 840 AD – Lose a cav taking Oxford. Four slaves. One resister. Four unhappy citizens, we deny them their pints.

Brighton is recaptured.

A cav kills a spear at Liverpool.

Use our two 2/4 knight to take out the last spear (lost one) at Liverpool, and we get to meet John, Paul, George and Ringo… in their houses.

The English are now a settler in a boat.

Hawk our WM around trying to find out where Liz might have sailed off to. Make 12G. China and India both have Music theory. Gandhi has that and nothing else. Sell him Metallurgy for Music Theory & WM.
Switch Avingnon over to Bach’s, due in 15.

We have some seriously unhappy people. I bump lux up 20% and still have to hire some clowns.

IBT – Besancon: settler=> temple
New Berlin: Settler=>caravel

10. 850 AD – Pop a hut with a cav up on northeast island and wake up some yokels.


After Action Report: We have two settlers in a boat headed towards the northeast island. We are now 550 tiles from domination, with 439 unclaimed tiles still available. Liz hasn’t build her new city yet. I know the boat was heading to the north, last sighted off the coast of Bratwurstville. I suspect we’ll see the new English capitol pop up on northwest island. If she goes for northeast island then she will walking into the waiting arms of our cavalry.

There are four or five settlers heading towards the southeast to settle the open lands there. We have one settler in the northwest to settle an open area south of Bugsdorf.

There is another settler by New Leipzig waiting for a boat ride somewhere.

I think we should stage our Japan invasion from the eastern most part of our lands. Poznan or Wienerschnitzel would be best. I started heading our cavs in that direction.

Leibniz is up
Denyd is on deck.

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Bugsy_SG002_AD0850_01.SAV

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2_Bugs_850_AD.jpg

nice set bugs :goodjob: launch spot looks good but we'll need some roads so we can ferry the troops. caravels move distance 4, do we have only 4 between sea tiles there? i get a little dizzy without the grid :D

Let me check that out, I think it is more. I think we're going to need magnetism to do it.

Here's a better view of the crossing with grid on. There are four ocean tiles no matter how you slice it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2_Bugs_eastern_crossing.jpg

what about the west coast? seems to be a lot of sea tiles over that way.

That's how the Japanese got over to us with the Lighthouse. Fewer ocean tiles, but a longer crossing.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2_bugs_western_crossing.jpg

If we left Liverpool with a large (20+) cavalry contingent and set up and ROP with India, we could position our troops for a opening salvo that that could grab NE Japan, giving us a base for access to the Japanese core.

Edit: BTW, nice :hammer: on Joanie & Liz, getting Sistine means we'll need to add cathedrals to take advantage of it. Is anyone building Bach's? Do we have a pre-build for Smith's? or Magellan's. That extra movement point would get us across, but it's probably just as fast to research Magnetism and upgrade to Galleons (larger capacity too)

yeah, i think the west is best. east can come once we make it to the Japanese choke point.
ship chaining locations with a new town with a target of Ise. new town reduces the chain locations from 4 to 3.

Either way that is going to take quite a few turns to set up. A settler could probably be hurried out of Liverpool or Oxford to found the new town. The issue will be getting some vessels over there. Probably rush a bunch in west coast ports.

the terrain around Ise will work to our advantage. Those mountains will give us good defensive cover.

I think we'll want to try and get Magellan's. We'll need another pre-build, but we really don't have any strong coastal cities for building a wonder.

if we setup a RoP with India, we could take 3 Japanese towns (Hakodate, Toyaman, and Shimono) on the 1st turn. Then wheel around and take the rest. Use the ship chain to supply fresh troops once those lower Japanese cities are nabbed.

With such a success on the opening round, we may even get some war happiness.

edit: make that 4 cities on the opening turn :) I didn't see that one W of the Indian city

To answer denyd's questions. The Chinese are building Bach's in Nanking - pop 12, and the Indians in Calcutta pop 6. When I built Sistine it broke any cascade so everyone is starting out fresh. I think we have a very good chance of getting Bach's.

Economics hasn't been researched by anyone, so no one is building Smith's.

Dortmund looks like the best location for a Magellan's pre-build, but that's only getting 6 spt. I would Use Paris as a Smith's pre-build, presently at 12 spt, and capable of growing. Cologne is also at 12 spt, but doesn't have an aqueduct.

Very nice turns, Bugs! Very nice!

The interesting thing is our score compared to the other teams hasn't continued to increase at the same rate. We'll probably be in fourth or fifth place soon. Bach's will help that. We probably need to invest in some temples and cathedrals to up our happies.

Presently Japan is the number two civ in land area behind us. If we own the UN, they are our competition. Maybe we hold off on the Japanese invasion, and set them up for the UN, and just take the UN city, so they are the number two power. In the meantime we build our infrastructure and promote happy people to up our score.

a quick war with japan will help the score by giving us more land and increasing our pop.

my vote is that we take out japan completely (should be quick with cav) while doing the temple/cathedral builds on all non-military cities (should be a lot). build armys by hand and use Great Leaders to rush wonders, especially the happiness ones.

The only problem with waiting is score.

Score is based on primarily on number of people (happy is a bonus) and the number of people is limited to number of cities and number of cities is a constrained by number of available tiles.

Ergo (don't you just love that word), the more land we have, the more cities we can build and the more people that can populate those cities and the higher the score.

So, I think we should try to get cavalry to Japan ASAP, declare war and get to the domination limit ASAP. Then settle back and grow, research and make the people happy until the UN is built.

X-post with G-man: I like the way you think :thumbsup:

I think there are only two happy wonders left Bach's and US, well Cure for Cancer, but we'll never get there.

Shakespear's theater is still around too ;) we can let the AI research that tech for us :)

That's just effective in one city only though, IIRC. It is great for culture... 8cpt, but not so uch for happies.

I think Bach's will help the most.

With the pre-builds for Bach & Smith we should be all set for happy & money. Next on the science front should be getting out of the middle ages. Hoping for Steam Power as the bonus for us and Medicine for Russia, that would give us a leg up on the other island.

We should probably shoot for Industrialization (US), Electricity & Scientific Method (TOE). Atomic Theory & Electronics from TOE is probably the best bang for the buck.

As I see it all productive cities need libraries, marketplaces, universities, banks, temples & cathedrals. The corrupt ones need courthouses, marketplaces & banks then review to see if anything else is a good idea. All coastal cities should get harbors (once Smith's is built).

I agree with Denyd's list of required buildings. I think we need to monitor the corrupt cities and get them a temple and cathedral to keep people happy.

Science plan is good. With libraries and universities, we can probably blow through the midle ages. We may be able to have Modern Armor, by the time the UN is built.

re: japan: looks like we'll get wines and gems too (i think we have gems, right?) and access to trading for silks from India. These will help the happiness nicely.

Very strong turns, Bugsy.

Got the file. I will play tomorrow. Today I have a lot of other work to do.

I will also post a few questions and comments before I play.

Here are the plans for my turns.

1. Prepare for the war with Japan by founding a new city near Liverpool. We want to have 7 caravels and 21 cav. Reinforce by troop jump to Ise.

Or should we make a ROP with India and attack from there?

2. Having prebuilds for Bachs and Smith.

3. Buildings as in Denyds list.

4. Settling the remainimg open places on our continent.

imho, india RoP attack on Japan is best. You can drop off the troops and then get your ship hopping convoy in place for follow on units. Plus, we can easily take 4 cities on the 1st turn of the war. This will cripple Japan and make the war go even faster. Then go get cities as they make sense. Ship chain could lead to Ise or the city to the West of Ise if its easier to take right away. You will still need the city N of Liverpool to reduce the number of links in the ship chain.

We are already building Bach's in Avingnon, due in about 13 turns. Just need a pre-build for Smith's and a coastal pre-build for Magellan's

Bugs, can you repost the last Save as an attachment? The file I have downloaded yesterday seems to be corrupt and the server civfanatics.net is down at the moment.

Here you go.

Ok, thx Bugsy.

T0: Nothing.

IBT: Barb attacks a cav and dies.

T1: Leipzig Univ. > Cav. Königsberg Settler > worker. Salzburg worker > Temple. I have unloaded the Cav in Galley. Cleared jungle.

T2: Munich Cav > Cav. New Frankfurt worker > worker.

T3: Berlin Settler > Market. Paris Cav > cav. Frankfurt Settlwer > Bank. Cologne Uni > Military Acad.
New Hannover founded > Lib, New Bremen founded > Lib., New Stuttgart founded > Lib.
Science to 10.

IBT: English found Richmond on the Isle NE and have many (3) more units (1 longbow, 2 spears ???).

T4: London riots > Scientist. Moscow riots > Clown.
Kreuzberg Settler > Uni. Rheims Cav > Temple. Bad G Cav > Cav. Our Cav kills an English spear in Richmond. Move a caravel west to go to Liverpool.

T5: Denydberg Settler > Cav. Madbax Lib > Temple. Our Cavalry kills the English longbow. Science to 0. Nothing else possible.

The things are not very nice at the moment, so I need a bit discussion.

We have no gold at the moment. At science 0 we make 15g per turn. Also we need more Caravels. It will take a long time until we can start the invasion of Japan.

Only positive thing: The English war will be probably over the next two turns. Any suggestions?

Perhaps we should wait until the AI has researched the next tech and sell Military tradition. This will give us a bit gold to rush 2 or three galleys which can transport the Cavalry to India.

check your unit count. do we have too many swords/units? you don't need MP's with republic so disband them for shields. also, without a real threat, you should be fine with minimum # of pikes or muskets.

do we have too many non-useful improvements in corrupt towns? is the core properly improved (ie, jungle cleared and working river tiles, markets in all cities) if the workers are improving the terrain around corrupt towns, they are wasting thier time.

edit: are we spending too much on lux taxes?

We'll also get some money back from the luxury slider once England is gone.

As for disbanding swords, should we keep the elites to send to Japan on the second wave for leader farming?

Adding a couple more cities will allow us to increase our unit count, any cities building settlers?

Adding a couple more cities will allow us to increase our unit count, any cities building settlers?
in republic, we get 0 unit support so it's best to keep troop count to a minimum.

finishing off england to get rid of WW will help the most.

IIRC, our WW is getting high. So ending the English war will be critical. (How does the AI get so many units so fast in a situation like Richmond?)

We also don't have very many improvements in corrupt towns. In fact other than courthouses, probably none. I'd check the tiles our citizens are working, but getting the war over will help a lot.

We also don't have very many improvements in corrupt towns. In fact other than courthouses, probably none. I'd check the tiles our citizens are working, but getting the war over will help a lot.
maybe we should check them. if the courthouse isn't giving us more gold than it's costing, then we should get rid of it.

I had about five or six settlers, so there should be some available.

G-man - good call on the courts. We're probably just getting beyond our OCN, we do have a boatload of cities.

I had about five or six settlers, so there should be some available.

G-man - good call on the courts. We're probably just getting beyond our OCN, we do have a boatload of cities.
well, if the landmass is covered, then maybe those settler should join low corruption cities with markets or libraries for a pop/money boost.

edit: another thing we could do is sell temples in totally corrupt, small towns (<6) after the borders expand. I know we want happy people but specialist get us points as well, just 1/2 the rate.

edit2: also, we may not need the temple in big cities after a cathedral is built since we have Sistine's

IIRC, our WW is getting high. So ending the English war will be critical. (How does the AI get so many units so fast in a situation like Richmond?)

Two galleys.

I was thinking of C3C & GOTM for Republic supporting units. I agree that most of the garrison troops (regulars for sure and probably veterans) in the non-coastal & non-Russian border cities can be dissolved. Until railroads (and after marines) we'll need to keep those cities garrisoned to remove any temptation to the AI to go after them.

Don't forget to have a couple of units (Elite Swords would be good) ready to acquire that Japanese city on the northern part of our islands.

Not to mention the other Japanese cities on Northeast and Northwest Islands.

Ok, but the war with England is not such a problem. The clowns are in the most corrupt cities. It will help us with our score to keep the remaining citizens content and also to have some happy citizens, but we do not make enough gold.

Perhaps we have to disband elite units. I will try to set up for the war against Japan. But this war cannot be prepared the next turns.

We have to rush more Caravels, so science to 0; ROP with India is an option. We probably are able to transport the Cavalry needed to India with 2 or 3 ships. But we cannot do this the next turns I think.

Or are there any other strategies?

We have to rush more Caravels, so science to 0; ROP with India is an option. We probably are able to transport the Cavalry needed to India with 2 or 3 ships. But we cannot do this the next turns I think.

Or are there any other strategies?
well, you can't expect to do everything ;) try your best and we'll see where we are at the end of your 10. good luck :)

T5: Disband 6 warriors and 2 vet swords.

T6: Königsberg worker> worker. Add a taxman to Warwick. Dortmund caravel > Caravel. Wienerschnitzel Lib > Worker.
New Bonn founded > Lib. Destroyed a barb camp.
New Salzburg founded (near Liverpool as discussed)> Harbor. Science to 10. Add a few clowns.

T7: Sauerbraten Lib > Temple. Unload cavalry on the isle NE.
New Dortmund founded > lib.

T8: Chartres Market > Harbor.
Brandenburg Settler > Worker.
Leibnizgarten Court > Temple.
New Brandenburg founded > Lib.
Berlin 2 founded > Lib.
Leipzig 2 founded > Lib.
Our Cavalry kills an English spear.

T9: Lyon Cav > Bank.
Dijon Cav > Cav.
Hamburg 2 founded > Lib.
Our first Cav attacks English spear and promotes to Elite.
The second cavalry destroys Richmond and the English.

Königsberg 2 founded > Lib.
Turn lux to 10 and science to 40. Things are much better now.

IBT: Physics comes in. Navigation at 50 in 5.

T10: London Lib > temple.
Hannover Cav > Uni.
New Frankfurt worker > worker.
Frankfurt 2 founded > Lib.

Remark: Next player may decide what to research.

There are a few caravels on the way to New Salzburg. If we slow down our research a bit we sould be able to rush 3 or 4 caravels. We should be able to bring a nice force to Indian territory soon.

The things look much better now.

Also we get Bach's in 4, which is a very nice wonder on such a big continent with so many cities. So we can remove the rest of the clowns then.

nice turns Leibniz :D once the english war was over, things seemed to hash out nicely.

in regards to research, we can go for Nav if we're eager to get magellan's. imho, we'd be better off getting mag and ToG, going into the IA. doing the DaveMcW tech trick, we can gift Russia into the IA just when we learn ToG, mortgage our whole future for her tech (if we want it), then let the game give us our bonus tech. voila, 2 IA techs and we're cruising. Trade China an IA tech for Nav and all the gold she has (as well as Russia & India), and then switch over a palace prebuild for Magellans if we really want it.

Where's the save?

Denyd - Up
G-man - On Deck
R & L -
Bugs -
Leibniz - Destroyer of the English!

Edit - Here it is: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Bugsy_SG002_AD0950_01.SAV

Won't we get to the IA first when we get ToG? How do we get around not being first since we have to have the tech (and thus be in the IA) before we gift it to Cathy.

I got it, but won't be starting for about 12 hours.

Any thoughts for my turn set?

Research?
Unit Builds?
New buildings?
Worker tasks?

I'll give this some thought and be back in a couple of hours (after a very 'exciting' planning meeting)

Edit: My preferred method for the trade slingshot is to reach the IA and see what we get, then gift/sell Russia to the IA and trade our bonus for hers. We should probably spend a some shields getting a couple of ships to blockade the Russian coast so no one else can meet her or we could just eliminate her. I'm concerned about her trading these new techs to the other island.

Edit: My preferred method for the trade slingshot is to reach the IA and see what we get, then gift/sell Russia to the IA and trade our bonus for hers. We should probably spend a some shields getting a couple of ships to blockade the Russian coast so no one else can meet her or we could just eliminate her. I'm concerned about her trading these new techs to the other island.
this is how i usually do it too but i've been reading DaveMcW's recent revision to this and it seems that, once you learn the last tech of your age, you can select the IA tech to research before you get your freebee. at that time, hit F4, trade like drunk sailor with the winning lotto ticket with scientific civ's, including getting thier bonus tech, then come out of F4 for your bonus tech. now that you have your bonus tech, hit F4 again when it asks you what to research, trade like a wall street miser with a pole up your you know what, and get all the money back.

we should probably start the war with japan before then and ally india/china/russia via the gift techs so they don't trade with japan. not easy and definitely complicated, but if we can do it, then we bring everyones tech up except our opponent. we want everyone to help research or we're going to have a very late UN date.

I never tried that method, do you have a link to Dave's write up on it, I'd like to study what he did.

As for research, if it's an optional tech then Economics (though that's India's favorite and we could trade for it), but I'd prefer a required tech with TOG being my first choice. We should start a pre-build for it in the Copernicus city (does that city have a library & university yet? ).

I agree with getting everyone else at war with Japan (allies & ex-allies tend to like you more). My only worry is a weakened Japan is not likely to be on the UN ballot. I expect India to be the UN builder based on what's likely to occur (no more Japan). That would be us vs India with Russia & China as allies, that's a 3-1 victory vote.

Edit: Meeting got pushed back 2 hours.

here is the excerpt:

Scientific Double Slingshot

Does it annoy you when a scientific AI gets the same free tech as your scientific civ? Never let it happen again!

To pull this off you need a lot of gold in the bank, or optional techs from the previous age to barter with. Finish researching the last tech of the previous age, and a popup will appear congratulating you on entering the new era. Click "What's the big picture" and you will zoom to your research screen - without your free tech!

Hit F4 to tab to the foreign minister and buy the free techs from all your scientific rivals. You may need to gift them into the new age. Pay gold, gpt, anything to get those techs. Hit F1 adjust your gpt income. You will get it all back soon.

Now exit out of the foreign minister and continue your turn. When the build phase finishes check your research screen - you have a different free tech that none of the AIs have. If you got all the first-level techs already, it will be a second-level tech like Theology, Industrialization, or Space Flight! Sell it to your scientific rivals to get your money back.

I like that, I'll have to try it in GOTM 32 (I don't think I'll be up in SGOTM 2 when this is available). Thanks G-Man

here's the link -> http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=90177

It never ceases to amaze me how people find all of the little loopholes in the code that allow for exploits like this one (IMHO). I'm sure that many, if not most, are found by accident the first time or two, but then - WOW.

re: research -> imho, lets get out of the MA into the IA. we can trade for those optional techs when china or india get them.

edit: after tonight, I don't expect to be able to check this site till Sunday afternoon. i will get it on Sunday if denyd posts it between tonight and then. good luck :thumbsup:

THE SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Bugsy_SG002_AD1050_01.SAV)

Turn Log 5

Turn 0 – 950 AD - Reset to personal preferences – Switch research to Magnetism – Sell Physics to China for WM + 8g + 50gpt – Sell Physics to India for WM + 33g - A couple of clowns converted to taxmen – slider at 2-8-0 – Magnetism due in 4 turns – Dover switch to Harbor to upgrade caravels to galleons – Begin positioning troops for Japanese invasion: 4 Elite Swords for Fukashima and the rest in New Salzburg, and move the garrison troops around – Trade Theology to Russia for 22g + WM – Trade Music Theory to Japan for WM + 16g – (we now have all the world’s gold)

IBT: Konigsberg worker->worker – Milwaukee Courthouse->Marketplace – Nuremberg Marketplace->University – New Berlin Worker->Worker

Turn 1 – 960 AD – Cavalry pops hut for 50g – On station in Rally Point: 5 Elite Swords, 1 Sword Army, 2 Elite Knights, 1 Elite Cavalry & 2 Vet Cavalry – Aside from that lots of chopping & roading

IBT: Lots of galleys sailing around – Rheims temple->bank - Dortmund caravel->musket – New Hamburg->worker

Turn 2 – 970 AD – Settler founds Wiesbaden – Settler founds Jungle Cruise – Add a Vet Cavalry to Rally Point

IBT: Berlin Marketplace->Cavalry – London gets a taxman – Leipzig Cavalry->Cavalry – Canterbury Library->Marketplace – Marseilles Courthouse->Aqueduct – Stuttgart Cavalry-Cavalry – Bonn Courthouse->Marketplace – Japan starts Bach

Turn 3 – 980 AD – Nina (Caravel) MP in Dover – 3 more Vet Cavalry at Rally Point – Slider to 4-6-0 – Trade Military Tradition to India for 11gpt + 48g + WM - (China has it)

IBT: Discover Magnetism research Theory of Gravity (due in 4) – Oppelin Cavalry->Cavalry – Munich Cavalry->Cavalry – Avignon builds JS Bach

Turn 4 – 990 AD – Trade Magnetism to China for Silks + WM + 26gpt + 74g – Trade Magnetism + Spices + Ivory + Dyes to India for WM + 5gpt + 13g + Dyes – Fire all (except 1) specialists

IBT: India lands a settler/spear pair on NE island – Between Bach & all the new luxuries, lots of fireworks – Besancon Temple->Cavalry – Dover Harbor->Courthouse – Birmingham Library->Worker

Turn 5 – 1000 AD – 5 Vet Cavalry & 1 Elite Sword join Rally Point – Gift Education & Invention to Russia – Trade Saltpeter to India for Navigation – Trade Navigation to China for WM + 24gpt + 39g

IBT: Regular Caravel (4/4) defends against BG and promotes – Konigsberg Worker->Worker – Chartres Harbor->Aqueduct – Wienerschnitzel Worker->Spearman

Turn 6 – 1010 AD – Upgrade Nina to Galleon – 3 more Vet Cavalry at Rally Point (New total: 13 Vet Cavalry, 1 Elite Cavalry, 2 Elite Knights - 1 Sword Army – 6 Elite Swords) – Sell Spices to China for WM + 10gpt + 23g – Sell Ivory to China for 2gpt – Gift Astronomy, Banking & Gunpowder to Russia – 2 Elite Swords staged for Fukashima

IBT: New Dortmund worker->Harbor

Turn 7 – 1020 AD – 1 Elite Cavalry & 1 Vet Cavalry staged for Echizen – Gift Chemistry, Metallurgy, Physics & Magnetism to Russia

IBT: Discover Theory of Gravity – Bonus tech is Nationalism – Brandenberg worker->worker – Leibnizgarten Temple->Cavalry – New Munich Library->Worker – Palace Expansion connects the right side

Turn 8 – 1030 AD - Gift Theory of Gravity to Russia – she gets Steam Power – Trade Nationalism to Russia for Steam Power - Researching Industrialization at 100% (due in 5) – Change Paris to Newton’s (due in 21) – Settler founds Gold City – A quick check finds 2 sources of coal (not connected yet) – First Galleon is loaded – Switch Riflemen builds to libraries

IBT: Japan complains about a caravel (just wait :D ) – Berlin Cavalry->Cavalry – Heidelberg Cavalry->Cavalry –Rouen Courthouse->Marketplace – New Hamburg Worker->Worker – New Konigsberg Cavalry->Marketplace – New Frankfurt Worker->Worker

Turn 9 – 1040 AD – Pinta is upgraded to Galleon – Trade Chivalry to Russia for WM + 8gpt + 70g

IBT: ZZZ

Turn 10 – 1050 AD – 4 Elite Swords staged for Fukishima – Trade Navigation to Russia for WM + 19gpt + 32g

Score 2108

I've got a couple of workers connecting a coal source, then we'll have even more for our workers to do. There is 1 loaded galleon and another almost there - have the caravels heading to rally point stop in Dover for an upgrade - We are falling further behind X-team and I'm not sure how to change that. It might be time to stop the cavalry building and add some more universities. Tech pace is not going to maintain a rapid if we don't. Once Industrialization comes in, switch Berlin to Universal Suffrage. I've got Paris building Newton. I'm hoping one of our friends researches Economics for us soon as I'd like to switch Cologne from Military Academy to Smith's.

We won't have to worry about the ship chaining with Galleons. Once we get 4 boats full of cavalry, send them west. When they get there, set up the ROP with India and send the boats back for a load of Elite Swords & the Sword Army. They should be able to get back in time to take those smaller Japanese coastal cities (Ise, etc).

Not much use in posting any pictures, the map hasn't changed.

ok denyd, nice set. i'll try to set the trap and, if i have time, spring it :)

save attached at the bottom of this post

Preflight check: We only have 2 galleons and 2 caravels. Switch Oxford from Lib to Galleon and rush for 160g.

1 thing that is hurting research is that Copernicus is in a size 6 town (Cologne). It needs an aqueduct so it can grow and work that gold hill. However, I will waste 9T of production if I switch so I decide to follow thru with the Smith’s plan. Not enough population around the core either so I will recall a lot of workers out around England and try to bring them home.

IBT: Kreuzburg university -> cav; Leipzig cav -> cav; Konigsburg worker -> worker; Oxford galley -> Library; Bremen court -> market; New Berlin worker -> worker; Ponzan harbor -> worker
Chinese are building Magellan’s

T1: 1060AD Load 3 galleys with Cav and send towards Japan; MM sci slider to only lose 12g this turn. Trade WM to Russia and India to cover the loss.

IBT: Hannover Univ -> Bank; Dijon Cav -> cav; Karasulsburg Library -> market

T2: 1070AD Upgrade a Caravel;

IBT: Industrialization -> Medicine (slow to 5T @ +39gpt); Avignon market -> university; Denydburg cav -> bank; Koln library -> courthouse

T3: 1080AD building

IBT: Bad Grahamiam-> galleon -> worker

T4: 1090AD Build an Embassy in Delhi (India has 1 salt, iron, and horse hooked up as well as 5 lux); Sign RoP with India with them also donating 15g and their WM to us. Trade WM around to Japan and Russia to get another 5g. Land 1st 4 cav in India

IBT: Berlin cav -> cav; Munich cav -> cav; Birmingham worker -> courthouse; New Hamburg worker -> worker; New Heidlesburg Library -> worker

T5: 1100AD 12 Cav are now in India near Chittagong

IBT: Marseillis aqueduct -> worker; Dortmund univ -> temple

T6: 1110AD still getting ready

IBT: Konigsburg worker -> courthouse; Besancon cav -> university

T7: 1120AD MM Sci slider to get more gold

IBT: Medicine -> Electricity (@90%, -27gpt); Opplen cav ->bank; Marsellis worker -> University; Brandenburg worker -> worker; Bad Grahamiam worker -> forgot to select something so it's a sword, please change :) ; New Munich worker -> court

Trade: India: Economics, WM, 1gpt for Medicine; Russia: WM, 22gpt, 95g for Medicine; Switch Colonge to Smiths; Switch Berlin to a Factory

T8: 1130AD

IBT: Leipzig cav -> cav; Lyons Bank -> University; Rhiems bank -> University; Stuggart cav -> University; New Dort riots

T9: 1140AD More work

IBT: Kreuzberg cav -> bank; Milwaulkee market -> aqueduct; Grenoble library -> harbor; Liebnizgarten cav -> aqueduct; New crackerburg library -> court; New Heidle worker -> worker

T10: 1150AD I know this is a bad thing to do but I do it anyways (hence the town name Bad Grahamiam): Declare war on the Japanese!
Near Fukushima: Elite sword kills sword and we get a leader! Cav attacks spearman inside town and kills it (2/4) and we take the city.
Battle for Echizen (probably our future oil town): cav kills spear and we take the city.

Leader goes to Bremen and we rush US

Battle for Shimonoseki: cav kills pike; cav kills spear and we take the city

Battle for Toyama: cav kills spear; cav dies to spear; cav kills spear, promotes to elite and we take the town

Battle for Hakodate: cav kills spear and promotes; cav kills spear and we take the city

Battle for Matsuyama: cav kills spear; cav retreats; cav kills spear and we take the city; Fortify 4 cav in this town to brace for Samurai attacks

Outside Shimonoseki: elite cav kills elite warrior

Drop 4 cav off 2T NW of Ise so we can take that city next turn. This should speed up deployment for the next player

Move 3 cav into position to take Sapporo next turn. Next player should take Sapporo and Ise 1st, then ship chain the 4 cav into Ise to take the super important town of Nagoya the following turn.

Trade: sell Medicine to China for 39gpt and 12g; Ally China vs Japan for Furs

Sorry, I may have some cav on automove towards the transfer point. Please keep improving the land around the 2 cores. As workers get done with the outer, corrupt towns, move them back towards the core to get that done. A lot of those towns are too small and need a lot of tiles improved.

our new holdings:

Well those cities didn't last very long now did they. :D

Denyd
G-man - Started Japanese War
R&L - UP
Bugs - On deck
Leibniz

Well those cities didn't last very long now did they. :D

Yes, cav are a wonderful thing :)

Well done Leibniz, Denyd & Grahamiam!!! :D

For a minute there, I was worried that you weren't going to leave me anything to do! ;) :hammer: I've read your notes, and from the cursory view, don't see a problem, but you will have to explain ship chaining to me if you want me to use it. I've always considered it an exploit, per RBCiv, and so have never used it (if I'm thinking the right thing).

Got it, and will pull it down tonight when I get home.

PS - I now have C3C on order - $21. If for nothing else, then to make sure that I can get into BUGS2! :D

On scoring - I'd love to know what Akots' team did to crank the slope on his curve like that! The only thing I can think of is that he's going for conquest & raze (to avoid Dom), keeping two pets in play for the vote. Speaking of which, since we've given Russia so many techs now, we should probably keep them around to vote for us. Or will they never do that regardless? At the moment now, it looks like we'll shortly be in 7th or 8th. :cry:

I've always considered it an exploit, per RBCiv, and so have never used it (if I'm thinking the right thing).

a lot of people do. i myself have no problem using it as it's well used in gotm and those are the people i compete against.

step 1. move ship full of units to a ship that has not moved yet
step 2. right click and "wake transported unit"
step 3. load each unit onto the ship that has not moved yet.
step 4. move ship that has not moved yet to the desired location.

you can repeat this ad nausa. i think you'll need to do 2 hops on your 1st turn to get those units into Ise. we don't have enough ships to go from ralley point to ise each turn.

don't worry about quelling resistors right away. use hurt units or, eventually, the swords to quell them. healed cav's need to press on. try to take at least the japanese mainland on your turns. good luck :)

re: score: we will jump now that we're taking more land again. just take as many cities as possible as fast as possible, within your comfort zone (or just a bit outside it ;) ) and tax starve those japanese cities. we don't get any points for japanese citizens.

Speaking of which, since we've given Russia so many techs now, we should probably keep them around to vote for us. this has been the plan for a while now.

I'm thinking those ahead of us on the curve (and already done) might be skipping the UN victory course.

Hopefully, one of the mods will open a Spoiler # 2 :wavey: and we'll be able to read all about it.

As I recall it the plan is to:

1. Take Japan out (that should push near the domination limit)
2. Keep pushing science to the max
3. Get India to build the UN
4. Declare war on India
5. Get China & Russia as allies (to assure their votes)
6. Take the UN from India
7. Win the vote and live happily ever after

i think denyd is right about the victory conditions of the others. i think people saw what team kunnigs did and are trying to reproduce it. do we get a bonus for following the victory condition? not like it matters cause if we trip dom or conquests we won't match thier scores.

I think having Bach's and US will help us a lot also. Those two wonders will give us a lot of at least content faces. Hopefully mad-bax or Karasu will post the second spoiler thread so we can see what is different. I think maximizing research needs to be our number one priority. Then we can decide how to approach the end game. Usually, you just make sure everyone is allied with you against your UN competition.

We will want the number two land owner to build the UN and take it away from him. That may be China. The rules for UN candidates are: 1) UN owner and 2) highest land owner. Once we take the UN away, the number two slot will be the second highest land owner. We want to be at war with that civ and have everyone else being our ally in the war. We will want to research to Fission as quickly as possible and then gift just the number two civ up that point and have them build the UN.

Edit (off-topic) - R&L - I'll get you a slot in the Gauntlet game.

If UN owner & Largest land owner (w/o UN) get the vote spots, things could get dicey. If India does build the UN and China is #2 on the size list we could have a problem getting the votes. I'm thinking we need to do everything we can to help India get to the other voting slot. Gifting/selling tech/resources might be necessary to get Ghandi moving. If we could nudge India into a little war with China and then jump in on China's side late in the IA, that might be enough to do it. We could then wait the necessary 20 turns to allow the MA with China to end and give peace and techs to India helping him towards the UN.

what if we're gracious with both? hasn't india and china fought a war already? seems like thier cities are a little mixed up.

the big question is whose side to take if they do get into another war. do we let them duke it out, possibly allying Russia and gaining her trust, or do we take a side and have russia join as an ally?

I think we should plan on letting China build the UN. They are already number to in land. A surgical extraction of one city should keep them in the vote. In fact we may want to blockade India from taking more Chinese cities. The interesting part will be the first vote. We will have to time a war to begin the turn before the UN completes.

[offtopic] @ Denyd - Thanks for putting me into your Middle Ages spoiler write up. I was quite flattered. It was very appropriate too, given my naval background. :hatsoff:

:bump: R&L?

Sorry, still playing. Will try to finish tomorrow night.

Sorry R&L, I lost track of days when I wrote that. :blush: I thought we were already on Wednesday. :wallbash:

No problem. I took the 3 peninsular cities in the first two turns as planned, but I'm still trying to get the huge pile of fresh units transferred over.

No problem. I took the 3 peninsular cities in the first two turns as planned, but I'm still trying to get the huge pile of fresh units transferred over.
don't stop for the swords. let the resistors resist and just press on. we can't afford to let china take too many Japanese cities :)

I wasn't, just for cavs, and the army.

how we doing? i'd like to keep from getting guillotined here :)

If R&L posts the game some time soon, Leibniz would you swap back to the fourth slot? I probably won't get to play until late Sunday.

1150 – 0
Reset prefs & examine treaties & trades.

IBT: Avignon Univ > bank in 13. Starvation at Shimonseki, Hokodate & Toyama. Bremen US > Univ. New Berlin worker > temple. New Leipzig Lib > temple. Poznan worker > worker.
The folks add adornments to the front of the palace, and add a second story to the gallery connecting the East wing.

1160 – 1
At Ise: Vet cav -0 kills spear & promotes, Vet cav -0 kills spear & promotes, sinks galley & captures city. Ise > library.
At Sapporo: Vet cav -1 kills spear, vet cav -2 kills spear, vet cav -1 kills LB & captures city. Sapporo > library.
Change production @ Shimonseki, Hokodate & Toyama to libraries.
4 cavs ready to take Nagoya next turn, with 3 cavs & 1 elite knight able to unload there and attack Izumo hopefully the same turn, if it has not already been taken by the 2 elite cav coming down from Ise first.

IBT: Cav fort in woods kills jap sword, but dies to Samurai -2. 2nd cav –1 kills Samurai & promotes. Fankfurt bank > factory. Bugsdorf court > library. The folks add a gallery to the West wing.

1170 – 2
At Nagoya: 4/5 cav -2 kills wounded Sam. Vet cav dies attacking Sam -2. Vet cav -2 kills Sam. Elite cav -2 kills 2/4 Sam. ¾ Cav -1 attacking spear -1, retreats. ¾ cav -1 kills 2/3 spear. Elite cav -1 kills LB, captures city & slave. Nagoya > Library.
3 vet cav + 1 elite knight unload in Nagoya.
Vet cav dies attacking fort Sam. Vet cav -3 kills fort Sam.
At Izumo: Elite Cav -1 kills sword. Vet cav -1 kills spear.
Make mistake & retreat cav by 1, but knight can’t move further. Will likely lose both to Sams this turn.

Change Leipzig to bank in 13.

IBT: Sword dies attacking 4/5 knight. Dortmund temple > bank in 20. New Hamburg worker > court in 80. I believe that all resistance in occupied cities has ended.
Russia is hooking up coal, and they have a settler pair on the coastal hill 4SE.

1180 – 3
No trading to be done, since we’re keeping industrialization at monopoly, but let me tell you – Cathy in a French Maid outfit is SCARY!!!!
At Izumo: (2 swords on hill, pike & sword in city) ¾ cav -2 retreats from pike. Shuffle & rest troops.

IBT: Sword dies attacking forted knight -2. Sword goes red killing knight.
Electricity > replaceable parts.
Munich cav > bank in 16. Dijon cav > worker in 2. Echizen riots > add tax woman.
Lost silk supply! See China has taken Yokohama.

1190 – 4
Sell industrialization to China for silks, WM, 77g + 92gpt (whole treasury), to India for WM, 91g + 9gpt (treasury), to Russia for WM, 22g + 67gpt (treasury?) We’re up electricity on all, and nationalism on India.
At Izumo: vet cav -1 kills red sword. Vet cav -2 kills 2/3 pike & takes city. Izumo > library. (2 Sam’s forted on hill. Attack or bypass?) Elite cav -2 kills Sam.
See muskets in Osaka.

IBT: India cancels our Dyes, & won’t retrade w/o Nationalism – go pound sand.
Chinese cav -2 kills forted Sam. 3/5 Sam kills Chinese cav.
Heidelburg cav > univ in 20.

1200 – 5
Elite sword dies attacking Suo, 2/3 spear promotes to ¾. Vet cav kills spear, autorazes, but captures slave & settler. 3 slaves to ship.
At Izumo: 3 cav unload at Sapporo > Izumo: Vet cav -3 kills ¾ forted Sam.
At Osaka: Vet cav dies taking -1 off musket (promotes). Elite cav -4 takes 1 off musket, retreats. Elite cav -1 kills ¾ musket, creates leader, Hengest! Vet cav captures 2 slaves. Elite cav dies red-lining musket. Vet cav from Izumo kills spear. Vet cav from Izumo dies to red musket. Vet cav -1 kills 2/4 musket.

5 more to go.

cav army! [dance]

Thanks, G! And I was already to ship him home for a wonder. I also wanted to clarify on tech. I shose Rep Parts, thinking that we'd want to delay ToE, but I'd much prefer ToE. Then again, what is another 4-5 turns.

Also, there was only an LB showing in Osaka, but I'm sure that will change.

sorry, but that was just my opinion at 1AM and i get a little choppy around that time :) it's hard to tell how things are going via text. however, a cav army will seriously speed up japanese conquest.

we can hold on to the leader if the team wants to save him for Hoovers. that's fine by me as well. RP is always a good choice as we have lots of land to improve. I think we're out-researching the competition so ToE can wait, plus, we need to start a prebuild for it (too little shields to use a leader on, imho). we won't need to research quickly in the MA for a UN win so using the ToE in the IA should be a solid plan.

Feel free to comment on the build selections. I tried sticking to culture-type stuff, but in a few, factories are all that's left to do. I'd appreciate feedback on these!

Since we've got the tech lead, we should be able to get TOE & Hoovers with Pre-builds, so I favor using the GL for a Cav Army.

My only other option would be to load the Army up with Infantry. Same hitting power as Cavalry and a defensive force the AI leaves alone. It could provide a base for the cavalry to attack from without fear of first strike hits from the Samurai.

Just a question, any chance of getting to Japan's iron and ending the steady stream of Samurai?

factories for all core town, definitely. if your building culture and have cathedrals, consider disbanding the temples to save money. we should be ok in terms of happiness now with the gems and wines connected.

Well guys, China got to the iron the turn before I would have (took city).

1150 – 0
Reset prefs & examine treaties & trades.

IBT: Avignon Univ > bank in 13. Starvation at Shimonseki, Hokodate & Toyama. Bremen US > Univ. New Berlin worker > temple. New Leipzig Lib > temple. Poznan worker > worker.
The folks add adornments to the front of the palace, and add a second story to the gallery connecting the East wing.

1160 – 1
At Ise: Vet cav -0 kills spear & promotes, Vet cav -0 kills spear & promotes, sinks galley & captures city. Ise > library.
At Sapporo: Vet cav -1 kills spear, vet cav -2 kills spear, vet cav -1 kills LB & captures city. Sapporo > library.
Change production @ Shimonseki, Hokodate & Toyama to libraries.
4 cavs ready to take Nagoya next turn, with 3 cavs & 1 elite knight able to unload there and attack Izumo hopefully the same turn, if it has not already been taken by the 2 elite cav coming down from Ise first.

IBT: Cav fort in woods kills jap sword, but dies to Samurai -2. 2nd cav –1 kills Samurai & promotes. Fankfurt bank > factory. Bugsdorf court > library. The folks add a gallery to the West wing.

1170 – 2
At Nagoya: 4/5 cav -2 kills wounded Sam. Vet cav dies attacking Sam -2. Vet cav -2 kills Sam. Elite cav -2 kills 2/4 Sam. ¾ Cav -1 attacking spear -1, retreats. ¾ cav -1 kills 2/3 spear. Elite cav -1 kills LB, captures city & slave. Nagoya > Library.
3 vet cav + 1 elite knight unload in Nagoya.
Vet cav dies attacking fort Sam. Vet cav -3 kills fort Sam.
At Izumo: Elite Cav -1 kills sword. Vet cav -1 kills spear.
Make mistake & retreat cav by 1, but knight can’t move further. Will likely lose both to Sams this turn.

Change Leipzig to bank in 13.

IBT: Sword dies attacking 4/5 knight. Dortmund temple > bank in 20. New Hamburg worker > court in 80. I believe that all resistance in occupied cities has ended.
Russia is hooking up coal, and they have a settler pair on the coastal hill 4SE.

1180 – 3
No trading to be done, since we’re keeping industrialization at monopoly, but let me tell you – Cathy in a French Maid outfit is SCARY!!!!
At Izumo: (2 swords on hill, pike & sword in city) ¾ cav -2 retreats from pike. Shuffle & rest troops.

IBT: Sword dies attacking forted knight -2. Sword goes red killing knight.
Electricity > replaceable parts.
Munich cav > bank in 16. Dijon cav > worker in 2. Echizen riots > add tax woman.
Lost silk supply! See China has taken Yokohama.

1190 – 4
Sell industrialization to China for silks, WM, 77g + 92gpt (whole treasury), to India for WM, 91g + 9gpt (treasury), to Russia for WM, 22g + 67gpt (treasury?) We’re up electricity on all, and nationalism on India.
At Izumo: vet cav -1 kills red sword. Vet cav -2 kills 2/3 pike & takes city. Izumo > library. (2 Sam’s forted on hill. Attack or bypass?) Elite cav -2 kills Sam.
See muskets in Osaka.

IBT: India cancels our Dyes, & won’t retrade w/o Nationalism – go pound sand.
Chinese cav -2 kills forted Sam. 3/5 Sam kills Chinese cav.
Heidelburg cav > univ in 20.

1200 – 5
Elite sword dies attacking Suo, 2/3 spear promotes to ¾. Vet cav kills spear, autorazes, but captures slave & settler. 3 slaves to ship.
At Izumo: 3 cav unload at Sapporo > Izumo: Vet cav -3 kills ¾ forted Sam.
At Osaka: Vet cav dies taking -1 off musket (promotes). Elite cav -4 takes 1 off musket, retreats. Elite cav -1 kills ¾ musket, creates leader, Hengest! Vet cav captures 2 slaves. Elite cav dies red-lining musket. Vet cav from Izumo kills spear. Vet cav from Izumo dies to red musket. Vet cav -1 kills 2/4 musket.

IBT: Coventry court > market in 34. Dijon worker > granary in 12. New Nuremberg library > court in 80. New cologne library > court in 80. Gold City riots > add clown.

1210 – 6
At Osaka: vet cav dies taking Sam to 2/4. Elite knight dies taking 2/4 Sam to 2/5. Elite cav -1 kills Sam. Vet cav -1 kills LB, captures city. Osaka > temple in 60.
Cav army (3 vets) created in Izumo.
Sell WM to Cathy for WM + 3g, to Mao for WM + 18g. Sell wines to India for Worker + WM + 27g (treasury). Tech advantage stays same.

IBT: Mao buys spices for WM, 4g + 16gpt (won’t sell dyes). Add taxman to Osaka to spread happiness. Bonn market > univ in 20.

1220 – 7
Notice that Edo (& Japanaese iron) have fallen to China. Army & elite cav head toward Kyoto.
Near Kagoshima: Elite cav -4 kills forted Sam & captures 2 workers. Reinforced by 2 vet cav.
At Bizen, vet cav dies taking 2 off of reg spear.

IBT: Mao offers 2 got for ivory, but still won’t sell dyes except for electricity – no.
Paris Newton’s > bank in 10. Brandenburg worker > worker in 10.
China begins Smith’s (currently due in 15 in Cologne).

1230 – 8
At Kyoto: Elite cav -1 kills 3/5 Sam. Army & vet cav kill 3 or 4 spears, but city is still defended. I hope that I didn’t just give the city to the Chinese! :weed: Try to span out to block Chinese, and find a 2/5 Chinese cav adjacent to Kyoto.
At Kagoshima: Vet cav kills spear flawlessly. Vet cav -2 kills spear. LB exposed.
Osaka has no defense, and no garrison. :weed:
Add second tax collector in Osaka to starve some rebels.
Matsuyama left with no garrison – testing India.

IBT: Chinese cav takes & destroys Kyoto (A12), captures 5 slaves. Chin cav move everywhere. Japanese LB goes to Kagoshima. Rep Parts > Sci Meth in 4 (can’t risk China getting it). Lyons univ > temple in 6. Canterbury market > pub, err I mean university. Rheims univ > cathedral in 15. Nuremberg univ > court in 12. Brighton library > court in 80. Hamburg court > temple in 30 (50% uinhappy). New Heidelburg worker > worker. We have 5 rubber hooked up.

1240 – 9
At Kagoshima: vet cav -1 kills LB. Vet cav -2 kills LB, takes city. Kagoshima > temple in 60. Sever roads from Kyoto S to Chinese home to slow further Chinese cav.

IBT: Kagoshima riots. Hannover bank > temple in 7. Besancon univ > bank in 20. Liverpool library > univ in 100. New Konigsberg market > univ in 20. Konigsberg 2 riots > taxman.

1250 – 10
Army -2 (now about 50%), takes Tokyo > temple. Reinforced by ¾ cav (forted).

Notes:
Many workers haven’t moved & some units. No units left with enough moves to attack Japan. PLEASE review and change all city builds as necessary. Please check trades again. We should be due for Sci Meth in 3, but can be adjusted down to 70% for more $$ with no lost turns. Brought most of the elite swords over for garrison. 3 elite cavs on garrison in North of Chittagong pen.

Scores: Ger 2618, Chi 1032, Jap 962, Ind 760, Eng 419, Fra 217, Rus 152

Here's Japan's map. Note that we haven't turned our curve yet on the points graph.

nice job R&L. not much left to do now. just take the rest of japan and then we're in spacebar mode :)

Very nice turns all of you. I was away the last days and haven't posted therefore.

I have got the file and will play today.

Don't forget that there's the two Japanese colonies on NW island. I got one, but died attacking the second. Pleasant turns, Leibniz. Enjoy!!

T0: We have 202 to Domination limit. Set science slider to 70 and switch Kreuzberg, Leipzig, Paris to Factory.

IBT: India and Russia sign MPP.

T1: Berlin Factory > Coal Plant. Rouen Market > Lib. Poznan Worker > Worker.
Attack on Satsuma: Elite Cav kills pike, elite cav kills spear > Satsuma taken.
Attack on Nara: 2 vet cav kil two reg spear > Nara taken.
Science to 60.

IBT: Calcutta completes Magellan's. Chinese switch to Smith's.

T2: Wiesbaden Lib > Market, Jungle Lib > Market.

IBT: Scientific Methods come in > Corporation at 70 in 4 turns.

T3: Milw. Aquae > Uni, Marseilles Uni > Bank, New Hannover Lib > worker, New Bremen Lib > Worker, New Stuttgart Lib > Worker.

T4: Chartrs Aquae > Uni, matsuyama Worker > Lib, Leibnizgarten Aquae > Uni. Prepare to land some troops on the island with the two remaining Japanese cities.

IBT: Japan and Russia sign a trade embargo against us.

T5: Lyon Temple > Factory, Dijon Granary > Courthouse, New Frankfurt Temple > Market. Unload swords Army to the Jap. isle. Also two cav. Trade Elecricity with China for Dyes WM, 30 g, 4gpt. Trade Elec. with India for 20g, WM. Remove a few specialists.
I rush Lib's in Izumo, Osaka, Echizen, Kagoshima, Tokyo, Satsuma, Nara, Königsberg 2, Sapporo, Matsuyama, Shimonoseki, Toyama, Hakodate, Ise and Nagoya.

T6: Berlin Coal Plant > ToE. The rushed Lib's come in > Temples.
Rally Point Harbor > Lib. Sword army kills spear in Bizen. Set science to 60.

IBT: China and India sign MPP. Corporation comes in > Steel at 100 in 4. Indians are building Smith's.

T7: Nottingham Temple > Lib, Hannover Temple > Factory, Stuttgart Uni > Bank, Denydberg Bank > Courthouse, Sauerbraten Harbor > Aquae.
The sword army attacks reg spear and kills him. Vet vav kills reg spear and promotes. Echizen is taken.

T8: Leipzig factory > Coal Plant, Oppeln Bank > Factory, München Bank > Factory, Rouen Lib > Harbor, Brandenburg worker > Worker, Karasulburg Market > Aquae, New Dortmund Harbor > Lib, New Brandenburg Lib > Worker, Berlin 2 Lib > Wrker, Leipzig 2 Lib > Worker.
Vet Cav attacks reg spear in Izumi and takes the city. The Japanese are destoyed. We can remove a few specialists.

IBT: Xinjan completes Smith's !!!!

T9: Hastings Court > Harbor, Nürnberg Court > Factory, New Heidelberg worker > Worker, hamburg 2 Lib > Worker.
Switch Berlin to Military Academy (in 5), Cologne to ToE (in 3). Switch Coal Plant in Leipzig to Bank.

T10: Dortmund bank > Court, Avignon Factory > Bank, Grenoble Harbor > Market, Frankfurt 2 Lib > Market.
Set science to 80.

Remark: After the culture expansions of the rushed Lib's we have 27 tiles to Domination limit.
We get Steel the next IBT. We should set science to 0 the. We get ToE in two turns. We should set the science queue as usual to Atomic Th. and Electronics then. We can switch the MA in Berlin To Hoover Damn.


SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Bugsy_SG002_AD1300_01.SAV)

nice play Leibniz. looks like you set the table nicely for bugs :)

shame about India and China getting an MPP. We should probably consider signing one with India as well to make sure a sneak attack from China gets them on our side.

bugs is up!

I'm up and I've got it.. Feast or famine. This should be a blast.

Don't hurry Bugs, I follow you in at least 2 of these. :cringe:

Preflight – Japan doesn’t exist anymore.
I sign a MPP with Cathy to keep us in her good graces. Domination is going to be an issue. We have 27 tiles to go and five cities expanding this turn.

ToE looks well planned. Steel to complete this turn and ToE due the next. Hoover’s will take a while since it is 800 shields.

To foster good relations with a potential voter, I sell Ivory to Gandhi for WM, 4 gpt & 50G. Mao is annoyed with us. By the time all is said and done, he’ll be more than annoyed. He has Communism for sale, but we’ll hold off. At the last minute we’ll gift him into the Modern Age.

IBT – Steel comes in. Science to 0% AT selected. Bump lux to 10% for a few more points. We have some seriously happy people.

Kiev: Court=>market
Poznan: worker=>worker
I think our palace is now complete

1. 1305 AD – 13 tiles from domination. Workers work.

IBT – Kreuzberg: factory=>bank
Rheims: cathedral=>inf
Heidelberg: Univ=>bank
Cologne: ToE=> AT & Electronics => Refining next @ 100%, due in 4 (-164 gpt budget) Aqueduct
R&Lhausen: court=>market

2. 1310 AD – 9 tiles to Domination. Berlin is switched to Hoover’s, due in 9. MM to get it in 8.

IBT – Paris: Factory=>wall street
Milwaukee=>univ=>bank
Hannover: worker=>market
New Bremen: worker=>worker
New Stuttgart: worker=>harbor

3. 1315 AD – Still at 9.

IBT – Leipiz: bank=>temple
Lose our supply of silks

4. 1320 AD – Still at 9. Sell Sci Meth to China for silks, 2G, 57gpt & WM.

IBT – Moscow: market=>bank
Rouen: harbor=>duct
New Konigsberg: Univ=>duct

5. 1325 AD – 8 tiles to dom, but we’ll have a growth to put us over the top. Abandon Izumi. Science can’t come down, refining due next turn. Sign a ROP with Cathy so I can connect her capitol to our for trade.

IBT: Refining=> Combustion due in 4 @100%.
Koningsberg: court=>univ.
Canterbury: univ=>bank
Leibnizgarten: univ=>harbor
Denydburg: court=>inf
Wiener: harbor=>worker

6. 1330 AD – 7 to domination. Two oil sources.

IBT – Spice deal with China expires. Sell them AT for spices, 40gpt, 58g, a worker, WM & communism.
Leipzig: temple=>inf.
Dortmund: court=>harbor
Avingnon: bank=>inf
Bonn: univ=>duct
Dijon: court=>duct

7. 1335 AD – Science comes down 10%. We’re at 7 tiles, with a growth next turn. Abandon Bizen.

IBT – Rheims: inf=>inf
Frankfurt: factory=>inf
Brandenburg: worker=>market
Bad G-man: sword?=>market
Madbax: temple=>worker
New Brandenburg: worker=>worker
Berlin 2, Leipiz 2: worker=>worker

8. 1340 AD – Since we have a road to Russia, give Cathy some ivory and she is now gracious. 16 tiles to dom.
Change New Berlin and Avingnon to Galleons.

IBT - Cologne: duct=> inf
New Heidelberg, Hamburg 2: worker=>worker
Gold City: library=> worker

9. 1345 AD – Since we’re almost out of money, drop science to 50%, combustion in 2. Still at 16 tiles to dom.

IBT – Berlin: Hoover Dam=>Inf
Kreuzberg: bank=> inf
Leipzig: inf=>inf
Dortmund: harbor=>galleon
Avingnon: galleon=>galleon
Besancon: bank=>police
Bugsdorf: library=>police


10. 1350 AD – 16 tiles to domination.

After Action: We’ll need to start building a navy, and our invasion force to capture the UN. I got a start on both, but we’ll need a lot more.

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Bugsy_SG002_AD1350_01.SAV

Nice turns Admiral Bugsy - I got it.

I thought we might use tanks to the invasion, we'll probably need about 6 galleons (upgraded to transports) to move 36 tanks across the water. They should be able to take the UN city away.

It's been a while since I last looked at this thread in detail.

If memory serves me correctly goals are as follows:

1. Build 6 galleons and upgrade to transports
2. Keep science going at maximum
3. Setup India to be UN builder
4. Build Hoover
5. Lots of Happy people on the mainland
6. Watch for the domination limit
7. Once motorized transportation available, start building tanks
8. Build empty armies
9. Probably no more wars until UN is built

Questions (it's easier to ask than to try to read the thread):
1. If we get close to the domination limit, any reason not to give one of those tundra cities to Russia?
2. Did we get Universal Suffrage?
3. Are we a democracy? Do we want to be?
4. What can we do to encourage India to build the UN?

Questions (it's easier to ask than to try to read the thread):
1. If we get close to the domination limit, any reason not to give one of those tundra cities to Russia?
2. Did we get Universal Suffrage?
3. Are we a democracy? Do we want to be?
4. What can we do to encourage India to build the UN?
1. no problemo here.
2. Yep, with a GLeader
3. No and no, imho, we don't need the anarchy and we seem to be researching fast enough.
4. do we want india or china to do it? :crazyeye: i've lost track.

I think we want China to build the UN. China is number two in land area and will be our opponent for the UN vote. Therefore we won't get that vote anyway. India and Russia love us right now. Cathy is falling over herself in love with us.

We presently have three galleons and I think we should plan on taking a transport full of defensive units. I think we could very easily have Mech Inf by the time we invade. It may even be possible to have Modern Armor if China takes a while to build the UN.

As soon as we get fission, we will want to gift China up to that level. Probably no sooner. We will also want to hold off giving or selling China the military techs. I would also consider a couple of transports worth of artillery or about three or four carriers full of bombers, plus a carrier full of fighters. I wouldn't expect a cake walk when we want to capture the UN. Figure it will be built in Beijing.

BTW - I abandoned a few tundra cities that were going to put us over the top.

can't we upgrade some of the caravels to get our galleons/transports? no need to build more imho. panzer or Modern armor, either way, we'll slice thru them. It would be nice to get a couple of carriers with bombers ready as well, though that may be too much due to our rapid tech pace.

Pls clarify: If China builds the UN, we're the voting alternative and voter's popular choice, then we are invading just to milk it until we want to have a vote. Going for the turn points versus the faster finish points. Correct?

Well that's the variant that was announced. Plus there's a good chance that China won't call a vote if they know they're going to lose.

That's right we get Panzers :eek: we're going to be scary dudes.

BTW - I think we have upgraded our caravels already.

:blush: Should have used "verify", not "clarify".

I didn't think of China not calling one.... :blush:

I wasn't able to play last night (that darn real life):

I'm thinking the goals for my ten turns should be:

1. Build 6 galleons and upgrade to transports
2. Keep science going at maximum
3. Setup China to be UN builder
4. Build Hoover
5. Lots of Happy people on the mainland
6. Watch for the domination limit
7. Once motorized transportation available, start building tanks
8. Build empty armies
9. Probably no more wars until UN is built
10. If we get close to the domination limit, gift one of those tundra cities to either Russia of India?

Anything I missed?

We should probably get an ROP with India to allow us to position our troops for the Bejing capture. It'll probably be necessary to raze a couple of cities along the way (we can't afford to add any more land).

Hoover was just built last turn so you already have one of your goals met. :D

Gifting the tundra cities sounds good.

I think our plan needs to be:
Monitor the UN build.
Turn before the build completes, declare war and bring Cathy and Gandhi in on ourside.
Capture the UN city.
Protect Gandhi (i.e. don't allow him to take any Chinese cities)
Hold out for 20 turns and hold the vote.

THE LINK (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Bugsy_SG002_AD1400_01.SAV)

Turn Log 6

Turn 0 – 1350 AD - Reset to personal preferences – Switch Berlin to Military Academy (armies might come in handy) – Send all the galleys to Rally Point for upgrade to Transports – Add another goal to replace veteran swordsmen with veteran infantry and to garrison all border (& coastal cities) – I’m also going to concentrate the work force into teams of 3 native or 6 slaves to work around the capital – Sell Spices to Russia for WM + 14g - All the cities look pretty good – slider to 6-4-0 still Combustion in 1

IBT: Discover Combustion research Mass Production (80%) due in 4 (Treasury 557g -111gpt) – Frankfurt Infantry->Infantry – Oxford Library->Temple – Liebnitzgarten Harbor->Infantry – Poznan Worker->Library – New Bremen Worker->Temple

Turn 1 - 1355 AD – Start grouping workers – shuffle around a couple of defenders – galleys on go orders to Rally Point – Switch Bugsdorf to a marketplace – Tiles to limit 16 – No trades available

IBT: Not much from the AI – London temple->market – Paris builds Wall Street – Munich Factory->Infantry – Marseilles Bank->Factory

Turn 2 – 1360 AD – Improvements around Frankfurt and Berlin – Infantry assigned to coastal garrison – 16 tiles

IBT: A couple of workers kicked out by India – Leipzig Infantry->Infantry – Lyons Factory->Infantry – Frankfurt Infantry-Infantry – Coventry Market->Aqueduct – Avignon transport->infantry

Turn 3 - 1365 AD – More mining, railroading, irrigating and moving around of infantry – a couple of veteran swords are disbanded – Trade wines to India for a worker – 16 tiles

IBT: Not much – Paris Infantry->Infantry – Kruezberg Infantry->Infantry – Rheims Infantry->Infantry – Chartres University->Temple – New Frankfurt market->factory

Turn 4 – 1370 AD – Slider to 3-7-0 Mass Production in 1 – No trades available – Tiles at 9 so gift Konigsberg 2 to India – Tiles at 23

IBT: Discover Mass Production research Motorized Transportation can only research at 70% due to treasury limit due in 5 – Frankfurt Infantry->Infantry – Munich Infantry->Infantry – Cologne Infantry->Infantry – Denydberg infantry->factory – Lost supply of dyes

Turn 5 – 1375 AD – Lots more chopping and railing – 16 tiles

IBT: Paris Infantry->Infantry – Leipzig Infantry->Infantry – Nuremberg factory->temple – Stuttgart bank->temple – Avignon infantry->infantry – Wienerschnitzel worker-temple

Turn 6 – 1380 AD – Switch Dortmund from transport to factory – Trade Atomic Theory + Furs to India for Dyes (China has AT) – Slider to 4-6-0 for MT still in 4 – 23 tiles

IBT: Pollution strikes Berlin and delays Military Academy – Kruezberg Infantry->Infantry – Lyons Infantry->Infantry – Oppelin factory->aqueduct – Frankfurt Infantry->temple – Munich Infantry->temple – Hannover factory->Infantry – New Konigsberg Aqueduct->Harbor

Turn 7 – 1385 AD – Clean up pollution – garrison coastal cites nearly complete – 23 tiles

IBT: Berlin MilitaryAcademy->Army – Paris Infantry->Infantry – Milwaukee bank->harbor – Nuremberg temple->bank – Bremen university->market – Madmaxberg worker->court – New Brandenberg worker->court – Berlin2 worker->harbor – Leipzig2 worker->temple

Turn 8 – 1390 AD – Just more of the usual – a couple of pikes get disbanded to hurry along a couple of infantry – Trade Furs & Gems to Russia for WM + 27g + 1gpt – China now has Sanitation, but let’s wait to trade for it as we’ve got a couple of big gpt deals ending in 6 - All of the Elite Swords & Elite Cavalry + the 2 Armies are now in Izumo – For those who did not notice, we are the only ones with RUBBER – 23 tiles

IBT: Leipzig Infantry->Cathedral – Rheims Infantry->Factory – Frankfurt temple->cathedral – Munich temple->cathedral – Newcastle courthouse->temple – Avignon infantry->temple – Hamburg temple->harbor – New Heidelberg Worker->Harbor – Hamburg 2 worker->harbor – Gold City worker->temple

Turn 9 – 1395 AD – More of the same – garrison with infantry – chop, rail & irrigate with workers –We’re spending 70gpt on workers !!! and there’s still a lot freakin’ jungle to chop – 19 tiles

IBT: Discover Motorized Transportation research Flight at 80% due in 5 at loss of 132gpt with a treasury of 503g – Paris Infantry->Panzer – Kruezberg Infantry->Panzer – Lyons Infantry->Panzer – Dijon Aqueduct->temple – New Konigsberg Harbor->Factory

Turn 10 – 1400 AD – Make the rounds and change all infantry builds to Panzers – Lots more mining, roading, railing and irrigating.

Post notes: I doubt there’s enough gold available unless you begin joining native workers or disbanding elite units to complete the 5 turn research on Flight, but I started at that rate and hoped. All the elite units (swords & cavalry) are in Izumo. I’d suggest building some more infantry to replace the veteran cavalry & pike garrisons around the nation. I’ve got a pre-build going in Frankfurt in case we get Computers as the bonus tech.

nice set :goodjob: regarding garrisons, we probably only need some around the indian border and around the russian border. coastal towns too, but not every coastal town since, with rails, we can quickly cover, then we can leave the rest empty.

I've been a little confused by the discussions on the UN. I just want to touch base to check that we have the same understanding.

You can win according to the variant rules in two ways.

An opposing civ builds the UN, calls a vote and you win it.
An opposing civ builds the UN, you become owner (somehow) of the city it's in, call a vote and win it.

This is my understanding. Is it yours too?

Affirmative, MB!

This is my understanding. Is it yours too? yes, our military buildup is with the intention of taking it if required. thanks!

Ahh! That wasn't my understanding. Thanks MB for piping up. I think Cathy absolutely loves us. When we gift her to the Modern Age, she will be falling over herself in love with us. We can get Gandhi there too. If China doesn't call a vote, then in we go. That actually makes it easier.

Roster Check:

Denyd - just played
G-man - Up
R & L - On deck
Leibniz
Bugs

hehe, thanks, i was a bit lost and didn't realize i was up. will play and post by tomorrow night.

Has anyone ever seen the AI *not* call a vote when they build the UN? I haven't. Then again, the number of times that I haven't been the builder is comparatively small. I think Denyd said that they wouldn't call it if they wouldn't win. In this case, we don't want China to call the vote, so we can milk the score.

I expect we'll be taking the UN from China rather than waiting to see if they call a vote.

One thing I did notice, whether it's China or India with the UN, both cities are going to require a significant war effort to reach their likely UN city.


I think the most difficult thing we have left is waiting for someone else to build the UN.

Just a wild idea, what if we were to take either China or India out completely?

That would leave just the UN builder, Russia and us in the vote (no chance of a tie then). We could sign an ROP with Russia. Then gift her any cities we take. As long as she's not at war with the opponent, those cities would be safe from counterattack.

Edit: To whoever is playing when we reach the Modern Age, would you detail how you got Russia to reach the Modern Age and get their bonus tech before you selected your age bonus. I tried to do this recently and failed badly.

On two occasions I have had the AI call a vote that was inconclusive, so I suppose it isn't completely out of the question. Something to think about, we might have to get a ROP to improve the tiles around the city where the UN is being built. In that case, we might want to start sending some workers over to our Japanese lands in about 20 turns.

One thing I did notice, whether it's China or India with the UN, both cities are going to require a significant war effort to reach their likely UN city.

I think the most difficult thing we have left is waiting for someone else to build the UN.

Just a wild idea, what if we were to take either China or India out completely?


being in uncharted territory, anything i post about this will be purely speculative. however, since we are anticipating 2 things (1. taking the UN via a tough fight and 2. a long time for the AI to build the UN), I would like to suggest the following:
1. get rid of all swords, elite or otherwise. they will be useless against infantry or rifles and are costing us money. get ride of cav (elite or otherwise) as the panzers come online since panzers can move 3T.
2. get rid of non-infantry defenders (pikes, muskets, or otherwise). we need only enough infantry to secure the borders and 1 or 2 per city we plan on taking. the interior should not have any unit garrisons and do not sign an RoP with Russia.
3. we must write down the date and name of city when the UN is built. We should plan on attacking the country with the UN about 3~5T before the next vote. how long do we have between votes? We should also have enough cash/techs on hand to get the others onboard (MA) as well as gift them at least 100g the turn after we declare and start the invasion.

The reason I don't care about obsolete elites is that, even if we get a Great Leader from them, what are they gonna be used on? We should be 3-5T from victory when the war starts so it's not like rushing a wonder will really help. In the meantime, unit upkeep will sap us of our ability to research or keep the lux tax high.

just my thoughts. also, i wouldn't mind wiping out China or India right now, but I'm not sure we really need to either and we risk losing happy citz points. We can't gain anymore territory, which will allow the other AI to fill the void and waste time building settlers. If we attack the UN builder, then we can use an RoP with the other to get to the main city.

Excellent points G-man. I agree with all.

I don't think we want to wipe out either China or India. Because we can't settle the land we'll have to raze the cities (may affect our world standing) and the other power will fill the void. We don't want to gift the cities to Russia cause it will just make Cathy stronger. We don't want a strong Russia.

I think we sign an ROP with both China and India. Build rails through India and improve the tiles around the UN building city. Maybe even start improving the tiles around Beijing now. You gotta figure Beijing will be where the build will be.

I think we sign an ROP with both China and India. Build rails through India and improve the tiles around the UN building city. Maybe even start improving the tiles around Beijing now. You gotta figure Beijing will be where the build will be.
thanks, but I think we ought to chose 1 to build the UN instead of 2. that way, we can make sure the RoP expires before attacking to minimize the effect on our reputation. i have not looked at the map in a while so maybe the last 3 players (denyd, bugs, leibniz) can decide which one gets it based on access and ability to build fast. i think someone has sanitation so that would be the AI to chose, imho. however, things on the ground may be much different.

I think I didn't explain myself. We build rails through India to help with getting units to the front. Probably need multiple paths because you know the Indians are going to block the road if we only have one way to the front. We will need an ROP and an MA with India come war time. We improve the tiles around the UN builder - probably Beijing.

Edit - As for who to build it, I think China. They are number two in area. If India builds it, the vote is between India and us. As soon as we take it away, the vote goes between us and China. India will be pissed at us for taking their city, and the vote is split 2-2.

If China builds it, we ally everyone against them take the UN city. Don't take anything else. China is still number two in land area. The vote is between us and China. Russia and India are our allies against China so the vote goes 3-1 in our favor.

As for who has Sanitation, it's China.

As for where Bejing is, this might help

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2_Bugs_1400AD.jpg

There are a couple of northern Chinese cities, we'll need to raze to protect our back door.

As for waiting for a vote to be taken, we are probably better off spying on Beijing ( the likely Chinese city to build the UN) and starting the war when it's got 1 turn to go, then taking Canton. During the interturn, China will complete the UN, we move and take Bejing and flatten a couple of surrouding cities, sit back and wait for the vote.

Excellent point about what a future GL might be used for. Although the Internet, Cure for Cancer or Longevity would be nice and we might have time to research the required techs while waiting for China to build the UN, the cost is probably not worth the reward.

One of my reasons for thinking about taking out one of the AI (India probably) was to remove the possibility of a tie. We could probably keep Russia on our side while erasing the Indians if we wanted to go that way.

I like Denyd's plan. Here's an alternative thought that I'm throwing out there.

If China calls a vote, we win. If we are at war with them and we have everyone allied against China they won't call the vote. Therefore we don't want to be at war when the UN is built.

We know the UN vote comes up every 20 turns. That city will have a huge flip risk. We really don't want to have China lose too much territory or the vote will go between us and India (which we might win also - 2-1 with China abstaining)

How about at around turn 14 we declare war. Start moving a stack of artillery and units south towards Beijing, bypassing Canton. We can pillage every thing in sight while we go. At around turn 18 we have our artillery in place and we bombard Beijing for turn 18 & 19 and take the city on turn 19. Then we own the city on turn 20 when the vote is called.

OK, so I see two votes for keeping everyone, allying 3-1 for the build vote, and invading after ~15 turns. I have no opinion, as either is feasible.

I don't know G's plan on doing his turn, but I am unable to play from tonight until 7/7, playing 7/7. I might get a free night in there to play, but I can't plan on it. I also don't know the guillotine date. Certainly I'll play if we have time to wait. Otherwise, please skip before 7/7. I will still contribute to the conversation.

R & L - we'll plan on slotting you back into the rotation when you come back.

i played out 2T last night and will finish the rest tonight. i shaved a lot of upkeep costs by getting rid of pikes as well as the libraries in totally corrupt towns (ie, former Japan and England). it took me about an hour to go thru all the towns and evaluate this. i'll continue getting money by further developing the FP core (some towns are fairly undeveloped right now, working non-roaded tiles). just for people's milking information for gotm wins, you'd be better off building a market for happiness than a temple (noticed a lot of those were being built in corrupt towns as well). also, the japanese towns were not starved down to 1pop so now many of those towns are max'd at size 6 with 2 or 3 happy japanese citizens, which does not help our score at all. since these are totally corrupt towns, the only thing they can add right now is 1gpt and 1beaker per turn so getting them full of our citizens is really the most helpful thing they can do.

i could get enough Panzers during my turns to do some damage but I don't really see the need. instead, i'll assemble them outside a former Japanese town and just keep the research rate at around 5T per tech.

That sounds like a very good plan. We should be about two techs from the Modern Age, IIRC. Researching Fission (if it isn't our free tech) will be our next priority.

Preflight check: Disband all the Pikeman I can find. Disband all the libraries in the former Japanese towns to prevent culture growth and to lower upkeep. I also see that there are many Japanese citz in these towns. Note we do not get any points for these citizens. However, since Germans are there too and they will be the 1st to starve, I do not tax starve these towns. Change all the unhappy 6th citizen in all these towns to taxman if the towns are at their max size. Also switch all the temple builds to aqueducts or markets if larger than size 6. After the above changes we have 568g in the bank and are losing 109gpt.
Now I go around our mainland and sell the libraries in totally corrupt towns (ie, those around the old English capitol)
Another thing I notice is that the area around the FP is not well developed but we have workers clearing jungles around totally corrupt towns like Wienerschnitzel. I will try to correct this.
After I’m all done, we now have 628g and are losing 94gpt. Flight still due in 5T. There is also less chance of an unwanted border expansion (in 9T we would have had a ton of expansion)

IBT: lose our 4gpt deal from Gandi for our ivory; Russia wants an MPP but I decline for now. Oppeln aqueduct -> panzer; Milwalkee harbor -> police station; Warwick courthouse -> aqueduct; Hannover panzer -> panzer; Avignon temple -> harbor; Wiesbaden aqueduct -> market

T1: 1405AD workers working.

T2: 1410AD Turn down sci slider to 70% to lower loss to -6gpt but still keep 3T till done.

T3: 1415AD Disband all the swords in Osaka so market is due in 3T.

IBT: Nuremburg bank -> panzer; Dortmund factory -> police station; Bonn aqueduct -> harbor; Bratworst court -> aqueduct
We lose our supply of silks

T4: 1420AD Trade India silks and WM for Corporation and RoP; China: sanitation for wines, dyes, ivory, and corporation and RoP; Also: PP, WM, 52gpt, 11g for Electronics

IBT: Flight -> Radio (5T @ 80%, -123gpt; Berlin Army -> Bank; Oppeln panzer -> airport; Hannover panzer -> panzer; Chartres temple ->bank; New Berlin panzer ->courthouse New Crackerburg something ->market

T5: 1425AD Build some more stuff.

IBT: Renew RoP with Russia and sell her PP for 3gpt and 51g; Paris panzer ->bank; Kruezburg panzer -> police station; Osaka market -> wealth; Leipzig panzer ->hospital; Lyons panzer ->airport; Munich panzer ->panzer
Konigsburg wants to flip to us but I rebuff the rebels

T6: 1430AD workers working, panzers loading, etc
Trade: China: 26gpt, 24g for Steel
India: 23gpt, 42g for Electronics

IBT: Nottingham settler -> settler; Salzburg university -> bank;

T7: 1435AD Panzer army arrives in Japan with an additional 4 panzers. Another transport with 7 panzers and 1 settler moves out to Japan.

IBT: Berlin bank -> army; Lyons airport -> bomber; Oppeln airport -> bomber; Munich panzer -> panzer; Nurenburg panzer ->panzer; Avignon carrier -> battleship; Karussomthing harbor -> bank; New Hamburg court ->market; New Frankfurt aqueduct ->university; New Nuremburg harbor ->market

T8: 1440AD I have to turn down research to 3T due to low treasury. Now making +204gpt which hopefully will set us up for the next tech.

IBT: forgot to log

T9: 1445AD more working

IBT: Paris bank -> panzer; Leipzig hospital ->panzer; Munich panzer -> panzer; New Heidleburg bank ->court

T10: 1450AD More working. A transport with panzers and workers leave.
We should start improving the tiles of our “friends” now.
Gandi will pay 23gpt + change for steel, recommend taking it.
Radio due in 1T.
Rouen is about to expand but will only add 3 coastal tiles (6 sea but they don't count) so we should be ok (currently @ 19T). If you feel uncomfortable with the expansion, then disband the library. More cities are coming up with culture soon so watch them carefully via Crpmapstat.

The plans you all posted sound very nice, although i can't contribute to the discussion because I have almost no experience in diplo wins.

Roster update (just wanted to double check to make sure we're all ok with R&L's skip request):
Denyd
G-man - just played
R & L - skipped till 7/7
Leibniz - UP
Bugs

notes i forgot to leave last night: when we get Fission, gift China up to Fission immediately so he can start building the UN. Also, sell whatever techs we can to the others for all thier gpt so China cannot take advantage of it.

the settler in Japan is for combat settling so we can burrow into China and get to thier UN city in 1T. We will need at least 1, maybe 2 more settlers. Recommend using our corrupt towns to build/rush them.

I also see that there are many Japanese citz in these towns. Note we do not get any points for these citizens. However, since Germans are there too and they will be the 1st to starve, I do not tax starve these towns.


It would take a while, but if we wanted to pursue this, we could build settlers of the german Citz's and name them 'save' or something, then build settlers of the Japanese Citz's. Re-merge the German settlers into the cities, and then disband the Japanese settlers / workers for shields.

Of course, that is ethnic cleansing, which is not nice at best. It's also similar to "Soylent Green" for those of you familiar... Converting people to products in this case, instead of food...

It would take a while, but if we wanted to pursue this, we could build settlers of the german Citz's and name them 'save' or something, then build settlers of the Japanese Citz's. Re-merge the German settlers into the cities, and then disband the Japanese settlers / workers for shields.

Of course, that is ethnic cleansing, which is not nice at best. It's also similar to "Soylent Green" for those of you familiar... Converting people to products in this case, instead of food...
that may work as we need combat settlers as well. some of those aqueduct builds are far enough along that we could get settlers very quickly. it may be worth trying. i tried to make the "specialist" a japanese citz to maximize happy point potential.

many "not nice" things need to be done to get higher scores but since it's just 1's and 0's, i don't mind :)

It's also similar to "Soylent Green" for those of you familiar... Converting people to products in this case, instead of food...
Where's Charlston Heston when you need him?

Where's Charlston Heston when you need him?

Lecturing at the NRA convention.

I've been trying to figure out how we can catch Team X and all I can think of besides going faster is to start merging some of our native workers into size < 6 cities and rushing aqueducts where needed and joining workers to those to get them to size 12. It would cut into our jungle chopping force, but once our 2 cores are mined & railed the other areas are really only population points.

As for the ex-Japan lands, getting those cities to size 1 and growing them back would also get more pop points, they should either be building markets or wealth (possibly a barracks in the southern city). About all they are good for is pop points.

I agree with the gifting of China, but is there any other way to encourage them to build the UN. Should we, as a plan B also gift India to Fission, so maybe they'll build the UN quicker. If India was ahead in building the UN (by 5+ turns), we could ally with them and Russia and quickly (with Panzers & Modern Armor) wipe the Chinese off the planet. Then the vote would be India vs Germany (with a Gracious Russia voting for us).

actually, getting both AI to build the UN is the correct thing to do. gift everyone up to UN. however, imho, we need capture the UN as there's no guarentee that the AI will hold a vote. 1st civ to build it tastes our panzers, just hope the UN build takes a while to cascade to the Manhatten Project.

the FP core needs some serious work and a couple of hospitals but our palace core is in decent shape. i agree with merging native workers once the hospitals or aqueducts are completed as well as in little towns. it will cut down on maintainace costs as well.

@ Leibniz - When do you think you can play? (Trying to plan my weekend)

I have got the file and will play today

I have downloaded the file but the game cannot load it. Play the World crashes when i try that. Grahamiam, could you post the file in the forum? Perhaps the file on the server is corrupt. I hope that there are no errors in my installation, since I have upgraded to Conquests.

here you go. i was wondering if you tried from the sgotm page as well?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugsy_SG002_AD1450_01.SAV

thx for posting the file. Seems that I have some serious problems. If I try to load the game, it goes until 38% and then the system crashes. I only wonder that i can load the older games. I will try to fix the problem now. Perhaps you want to switch me, so that I can play after Bugsy.

i don't know what to tell you. I can open it fine on my machine using PTW 1.27f. here's another one (I moved a tank army and then saved again). mine slowed down @ 38% but then moves on.

I am playing PTW from the C3C disc. I hope this doesn't have anything to do with it.

The save is fine. I played half a dozen turns from the saved position without a problem.

Leibniz, you appear to have buggered up your Civ install. Sorry for bearing bad news.

Team: I think a swap might be in order as Leibniz suggests.

ok, let's swap for now and then Leibniz can check's bugs' save. Therefore, the order is

Denyd
G-man - just played
R & L - skipped till 7/7
Leibniz - swapped with bugs for now
Bugs -UP

Grahamiam, i have tried the file after moving the tank army, but there is the same problem. I will try a reinstallation now using ptw from the c3c disc.

Got it. I'll play in the next 24 hours

i don't know what to tell you. I can open it fine on my machine using PTW 1.27f. here's another one (I moved a tank army and then saved again). mine slowed down @ 38% but then moves on.

I am playing PTW from the C3C disc. I hope this doesn't have anything to do with it.

I had the same problem the last time that I played too, but it never got stuck, just stayed at 38% for about 30 seconds, and then zoomed to the end. I had been playing with the original PTW CD.

Pre-flight – 1450 AD – One turn away from the Modern Age. We have a ROP with India and China. Very good. I gift Cathy some spices. 19 tiles from dom.

IBT – We research Radio, I then go to F4 and gift Cathy into the Modern Age. I must have messed it up since we have already been assigned our free tech, which is…..FISSION! Cathy also got fission. I gift Mao into the Modern Age and give him fission. I select ecology heading towards synth fibers and MA.

1. 1455 AD – 16 tiles from dom. Sell off Hamberg 2’s library so it won’t expand.
Get our workers over the former Japan. Let’s see where Mao will build the UN.
2. 1460 AD - No one starts the UN :confused: Change over a few coastal builds to destroyers and rush. Rush a carrier. Plan on have a huge fleet off the coast of Beijing.

I try and get a worker down to China and a choke point is closed by the Chinese. :rolleyes:

3. 1465 AD – Still no build. Start setting up to transport our troops around the choke. Spend 206G investigating Beijing. One turn on a hydro plant. 58 uspt.
4. 1470 AD – The Chinese finally start building the UN. Figure due in 18 turns from the intel from last turn. Load up our workers. We have a lot of work to do in India and in China. Set up two airfields in Japan.
IBT – India and Russia sign an MPP.
5. 1475 AD – Start airlifting Panzers to Japan. Try and get some Panzers down to the Indian/Chinese frontier and the roads are clogged with Chinese units.
6. 1480 AD – Still at 16 tiles. Start sealing off roads for our use in China and India. Hurry another carrier. Buy dyes from Gandhi for wines, rubber & combustion.
7. 1485 AD – Finally getting through to the frontier.
8. 1490 AD – Finally start making improvements to Beijing. Need to reinvestigate Beijing. UN due in 11. Of course the tile I improved isn’t being worked anymore :rolleyes:
IBT - Cathy wants a MPP. Sure. She’s now Gracious.
9. 1495 AD – More mining around Beijing.
IBT – Ecology comes in Synth Fibers next.
10. 1500 AD – Investigate Beijing again.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2_Bugs_Beijing.jpg
After Action – We have a serious Navy forming off the coast of China, and our invasion force is just north of the frontier.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2_Bugs_Navy.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2_Bugs_Army.jpg

Save: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Bugsy_SG002_AD1500_01.SAV

There will be a vote during Leibniz’ turns. We’ll either win the vote or be planning a war.

You gents want to do this again for SGOTM3?

Edit - If the vote goes our way, it looks like we'll beat team X to the fastest diplo win. At least it appears that they have a diplo win in 1570 AD.

roster update:
Denyd - on deck
G-man - just played
R & L - skipped till 7/7
Leibniz - UP, please report on your computer status
Bugs -just played

you might want to bring 2 more settlers along in that SoD to ensure you can get to Beijing in 1T. However, since it appears that the vote won't happen for 8 more turns, then we won't invade for 27 more turns. somehow, we have to get India on our side to vote for us in the 1st round. hopefully, all the tech gifts will help.

Very nice turns :-)
Well prepared finish.

Hope Mao will call a vote.

I have the same problem with this file. It's a bit frustrating, because I don't know what the reason is. I can load all older PTW saves on my computer but when I try this one the game crashes. It seems that the problem appeared after I have installed C3C. So I will try a separate PTW-installation now. Hope this will fix the problem.

You know, I just noticed that the 38% problem now occurs on ALL of my C3C loads, even when loading a 1-turn old game. And when it gets on in the game, ~150 turns, it gets so slow between turns that even the unit graphics are going in slow steps.

Still out til 7/7.

And YES, it'd be great to do SGOTM3 with you guys. Thanks, Bugs!

Even after a new installation it doesn't work :( :confused:

Could be that my RAM module is defect. Just wonder that I can load all the older files :confused:

I guess we'll put Denyd up. Sorry to here about your problems Leibniz :(

Something for the team to think about - do we want to do the variant in SGOTM3? I'm thinking Diety will be hard enough, and this variant is very hard on top of that.

The variant sounds neat, but at Diety, I'll leave it for the more skilled members of the team to decide.

The variant sounds neat, but at Diety, I'll leave it for the more skilled members of the team to decide.
the game is at emperor as far as i can tell. however, the varient will make it difficult. my vote is to go for the varient but also to finish this one as quickly as possible :)

SGOTM3 is Emperor level.

The variant plays harder than deity. I expect half of the attempts at the variant to fail in one way or another. It's about time some of you experienced the bitter taste of defeat. :evil:

Defeat? I have not yet begun to fight! Actually I have tasted it (gotm 24) don't like it.

So far we have one vote for the variant (g-man) and one not sure (R & L). I think this will need to be a situation like when the 13 colonies declared their independence. Either everyone is in or no deal. This will be tough and we will want everyone to be there of their own free will. No peer pressure. Also, if we decide to do the variant, and things turn south, we'll need to hang together and hang tough.

Denyd - you want to try and polish this game off?

Back from an exciting weekend of playing tourist in San Juan Capistrano & Laguna Beach, as well as spending a few quality hours hammering on Joannie & Isabella in COTM2.

Nice work Bugsy :hatsoff:

Good luck on correcting the hardware problems Leibniz.

I got it.

Questions:

1. Have we setup MPP's with India & Russia? Should we?
2. I was thinking of declaring war on China the turn before they finish the UN and allowing China the first shot (to activate the MPP's)
3. If we take the UN the turn after it's built, how long to we have to hold it before the vote comes up?
4. We will need to be careful with the domination limit, how close are we?
5. How do we assure China is the opponent? How close is India to China in getting into the election?
6. Does your chewing gum lose it's flavor on the bedpost overnight?

i like #2, just get a panzer or cav away from that army and it should be perfect bait. however, i think that will also prevent China from holding a UN vote, wouldn't it?

MPPs would be a good idea. I think I already have one with Cathy.

I think we ought to let Mao build the UN and call the vote in a peace time scenario. If there isn't one then we need to keep track of when the vote will happen next and we will want to go to war about seven turns prior to that. We will want to capture Beijing a turn or two before the vote to reduce the flip risk.

But let's try a peace time vote. Gift Gandhi into the Modern Age.

Edit - we are 16 tiles from domination, so not a lot of wiggle room.

Edit #2 - UN votes happen every 20 turns. Mao won't call a vote if he's at war with everyone.

@ Leibniz - Do you want to play in SGOTM 3 with us?

What if we launch prior to the build, and the China AI doesn't take the bait? Then he holds the vote, and we lose for being a war monger.

Alternately, how about if we get MPPs with Cathy & Ghandi, then declare war. China then also gets MPPs in the turn before the build, putting India & Russia at war with us, and then holds the vote. We lose.

Or am I off base here? I like the build & wait idea, or the vote in peace idea. We could win without holding the UN, due to all of the gifting, and no current wars.

Exactly R &L. Plus we may be able to win on our good looks alone :D I think that would beat team X, possibly give us a higher Jason.

R&L: As long as we don't attack China on their own soil, the MPP's won't activate. If we leave an undefended worker at the border once war is declared, China won't be able to resist and then the MPP's will activate for us.

Edit: Cross post with Bugsy. Have you ever seen the AI call a vote when it wouldn't win?

All true, but they also won't call the vote.

Edit - cross post with Denyd - Yes. They won't call it if they know they will lose, like if everyone is allied against them. But if the outcome is in doubt they'll call it.

Edit: Cross post with Bugsy. Have you ever seen the AI call a vote when it wouldn't win?
someone pulled this off in gotm30 or 31 by accident. they lost the UN build but then won the vote. i forget who but i'll see if i can dig up the post...

here it is http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1844149&postcount=6

@ Leibniz - Do you want to play in SGOTM 3 with us?

I cannot participate in the next sgotm. I will have my summer holidays next 3 weeks.

I will go to Italy then. The last week I will visit Rome.
So please build the collosseum as soon as possible in the next sgotm. I want to see that :)

One colosseum for our friend Leibniz to see :D

I will read your posts 2 or 3 times a week during my holidays. But I think my girlfriend does't like to see me playing civ during our holidays.

denyd just emailed a swap request so i will swap with him tonight.

Roger that. G-man and Denyd are swapped.

G-man - Up
Denyd - On Deck
R & L
Bugs
Leibniz

@Leibniz - We'll miss you, but will be thinking of you! Both in the game, and in envy over those weeks of Summer holidays. Enjoy!!!

And don't forget to stop in and sample the reds!

@Leibniz - We'll miss you, but will be thinking of you! Both in the game, and in envy over those weeks of Summer holidays. Enjoy!!!

And don't forget to stop in and sample the reds!

Thx :)

And don't forget to build the collosseum in Rome

Preflight check: Sign India up to an MPP. He is now Gracious. Hurry a market in New Cologne to get a few more Happy faces. Ditto Bugsdorf (shaves 3 turns). I completely turn off research for 1 turn to make 910g so we can rush 2 more markets in large towns.

T1: 1505AD Research back up to 60% (Syn Fibers in 9T, +93gpt). Rush a couple more markets

T2: 1510AD more of the same.

IBT: Konigsberg 2 (India) wants to join us but I rebuff them

T3: 1515AD more of the same. Trying to pump up the population of some corrupt towns (overlaying their mines with irrigation)

IBT: Konigsberg 2 (India) wants to join us but I rebuff them

T4: 1520AD ditto. We have plenty of carriers so I’m building escorts now.

China wants to renew our RoP with them which I do. They are furious with us so if they attack, within our land, we will have everyone on our side for sure. I renew our RoP with India + their Silks for Radio and Flight

T5: 1525AD Investigate Beijing. They will be done the UN in 4 turns. They have oil but no rubber. Should be a cakewalk if it comes down to a fight.

T6: 1530AD ditto

IBT: Pentagon is finish.

T7: 1535AD ditto Trades: sell China wines for 220g and 1gpt. This will expire 1T prior to UN completion and should be ok. With the settler, we can capture Canton, Tientsin, and Beijing in 1T.

T8: 1540AD waiting for the UN. MM sci slider to 50% to gain 95g.

IBT: China completes the UN in Beijing but doesn’t hold a vote; Syn Fibers -> rocketry

T9: 1545AD Well, that stinks. Move the panzer army’s back onto transports. I’ll put a 4th unit in each on. Turn off research so I can upgrade to MA. That’s weird. I’m told I can’t upgrade the Panzers even though we have 422g in the bank. Looks like we gotta build MA’s from scratch. Actually, we can’t build them either. We need Rocketry so we know where the Aluminum is.

T10: 1550AD play clean the pollution dots and clear the jungles. Army’s are over near japan. Can be offloaded, filled with 1 more unit, and then retransported to launching point.

Forgot to mention but there’s a Chinese transport headed for the tundra island and it’s rubber. We may want to stop it by building a town there. I placed a destroyer right next to the pair.

I wonder what would have happened with the vote if we didn't do the MPP with India?

we should only have 20T left in this game. next player just get us thru and the final player declare war when the deal with China ends (1635) and capture the UN.

Grahamiam - just played
Denyd - Up or still need a swap?
R & L - on deck
Bugs
Leibniz

[pissed] :gripe: Well that stinks. We won't be able to beat team X to fastest diplo win. We just need to keep everyone smiling until we go to war. It looks like Denyd will set up R&L for the win.

@Bugs,

I'm up in 2 others this week, and wouldn't get to this one before Sunday - Monday, so if Denyd does it soon, you can finish. If he needs a skip, then I'll play the holding turns quickly, before I play the other 2 (sorry G!). I know that Denyd doesn't mind if I leave DD01 hanging for a while, but I'd rather do it, so I don't forget about it. Trying to pull off this finish would be a good experience for me, but I'll need to study the timing for a while if I'm to do it - I'd normally have taken the dom win instead.

It seems like we'll need to dump a few cities before we go into China, to prevent the dom win. Any suggestions? I'm guessing that we'll be razing, except for Beijing, but wouldn't it @#$% to take Beijing, and then win domination by accident before we could hold a vote?!?!

Yeah, you need to use mapstat a lot. Save the game, load the game in Mapstat, see where you're at. The other tricky part is that we should try and keep China with the second most land total. Maybe gift China a tundra city or two to compensate for their future losses right before the war starts.

Solves both problems at once, good thinking! :thumbsup:
I'd do it without Mapstat, and just gift 2-3 to make sure. Can you use Mapstat to tell you what the tile counts are for India & China? It'd be nice to know how close they are to prevent switching the ballot.

Yes, Mapstat gives you lots of great information that is all legal. I'll see what I can pull up for the team.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Sgotm2_Bugs_Mapstat.jpg

China also has Amphib Warfare for sale.

when we attack China, we will need to take 3 cities:
1. Canton
2. Tientsin
3. Beijing

in this order, to prevent us from attacking across a river. After Canton is taken, the settler will move 1T S of Tientsin. Raze Canton, found new town. Now you can take Tientsin and then Beijing. After Beijing is taken, raze Tientsin. 20~25 panzers + the 2 armies will be enough. If we add MA's to the stack, all the better.

Also, leave a Japanese city exposed as this will cause China to attack one of those and then draw India and Russia in on our side.
This will add 20 tiles to our dom. limit so we will have to give/abandon at least 2 towns (assuming we settle on the rubber). The new one S of Canton should be an immediate canidate.

Also, I did a stupid thing with India. When I renewed the RoP, I also traded the lux. Therefore, if our lux get's cutoff, then our RoP will be cancelled as well. Please don't make the same mistake as me :)

@RowAndLive: don't worry about ggf4. maybe CB will show up and take his turns this weekend. just post there to let CB and JB know what's going on.

Things are settling down a bit. I should be able to play tomorrow (Thursday) night. If R&L wants to grab and play tonight that's fine or he can wait until the weekend and follow me.

Grahamiam: Thanks for the understanding the problem. BTW Nice turns :hatsoff:

It looks those people in Konigsberg2 really want to return to the German Republic (back to back rebuffs, that's the first time I've seen that)

After Canton is taken, the settler will move 1T S of Tientsin. Raze Canton, found new town. Now you can take Tientsin and then Beijing. After Beijing is taken, raze Tientsin. 20~25 panzers + the 2 armies will be enough. If we add MA's to the stack, all the better.

Also, leave a Japanese city exposed as this will cause China to attack one of those and then draw India and Russia in on our side.
This will add 20 tiles to our dom. limit so we will have to give/abandon at least 2 towns (assuming we settle on the rubber). The new one S of Canton should be an immediate canidate.

If we'd give away the city we just built, then why raze Tientsin? I don't have the map in front of me, but I'm guessing that we're building the new city to get road movement and avoid a river. That makes sense, as it allows us to attack Canton & Tientsin on the same turn, and maybe also Beijing. In PTW, razing doesn't cut the road, so it doesn't slow a counter attack. Is it just to avoid a dom win? We could do that by giving away tundra cities the turn before we attack...


Also, with Leibniz taking some time off to enjoy Italian food, wine and oooold buildings (and hopefully getting the PC repaired & operational), we'll need another player to sub for SGOTM3. IIRC, C3C is not an option for SGOTM, as so we'll still be either PTW or Vanilla, depending on the new player.

In light on Denyd's new posting, I will try to play tonight. Should be a quick 10 with not much to do. Then I'll post the save. Then I'll try to finish it for myself as a study. Thanks, guys!

However, it is Bugsy's team, and I'd hate to keep him from having another turn if he really wants one. So, he can take it if he'd rather.

i would raze Tientsin after Beijing is captured just to prevent going over the dom limit. i suspect it will be full of angry chinese that we really don't feel like dealing with. also, it should allow a cultural "gap" so our forces can flow directly to Beijing for support. due to the trade time limit, you will only have 1T to capture all 3 cities. Use rails and plenty of tanks to take all 3.

New city will ensure we can hit Tientsin with the Panzers or MA (2 tiles from border).

well, we could hold Tientsin for 1 turn to make sure we can get reinforcements into beijing as long as we don't trip the dom limit. just be wary of flips due to resistors.

On SGOTM3 - I PM'ed mad-bax that Leibniz can't play. We'll probably get a new player. Have we decided on whether we want to play the variant. I think this crew can handle the NOW variant. Gengis, Bede, Stapel and I played it in GK1 with a 5CC on Monarch and that was do-able.

On SGOTM3 - I PM'ed mad-bax that Leibniz can't play. We'll probably get a new player. Have we decided on whether we want to play the variant. I think this crew can handle the NOW variant. Gengis, Bede, Stapel and I played it in GK1 with a 5CC on Monarch and that was do-able.
varient for me. keeps things fresh :) turns will be long though as it will be a continuous slugfest, especially if we follow denyd's lead and focus on longbows instead of knights :lol:

Variant is fine with me. It'd be interesting to play through it.

I didn't get to it tonight. Will try again tomorrow.

I see in the SGOTM3 thread that 3 teams have split up, not necessarily due to bad scores, since they aren't too bad. This seems disconcerting. At the same time, overall sign-ups seem up, along with the enthusiasm, which is great. I wonder if SGOTM is getting as many or more players than GOTM/COTM?

The CotM/GotM is starting to get a lot of new players. I think a lot of people like the fellowship you get in a SG. I love them. Especially when you get to play with great teammates. Some times people may be a bit unhappy with their team and they just don't speak up. They just decide they don't ever want to play with those folks again. It is understandable. I've had some great experiences and some lousy experiences in an SG. Mostly I like the sharing of ideas and the fellowship of a solid team.

I'm starting to really get steamed here. It seems that C3C has corrupted my PTW. I put in the PTW CD, and whether I run it from the disc or from the icon, it prompts me to put in the Conquests CD.

I uninstalled both games, and then reinstalled and re-patched from scratch, installing C3C first, and then PTW second to over-ride the C3C link, but it still doesn't work! :sad: :mad: !@#$%^&*!!! I don't want C3C to over-ride the PTW, I want to run it from the original disc!

Skip me for this one. Hopefully I can get it working again by SGOTM3. Perhaps I'll just uninstall C3C.

:cringe: Sorry to hear that R & L.

Denyd, do want to jump in or should I take it?

delurk

I guess R&L logged off... in Denyd's "Longbow Slugfest" (also PTW) I suggested to R&L that he try running PTW with his C3C disk... that's how I run PTW. I don't actually own a PTW disk, it comes with C3C...

My suggestion: Give R&L another day if he's willing to give that a shot... my guess is you've got...what? At least a week before you get the guillotine and I get to join the Benevolent and Protective Order of the Wooden Spoon. :D

/relurk

I won't be able to play until tomorrow afternoon

I got a DATE with my WIFE ! ! ! ! (3 cheers for babysitters)

I'll check in about noon (PDT) on Saturday and pick up then if it's not in play.

RowAndLive: A couple of months ago I had to entirely remove all my Civ stuff and re-install. I've got a pretty fast internet connection and a good machine, so it wasn't that painful. You might try that. Be sure to backup the SAVES directories in the PTW, CONQUESTS and CIV3 if you're in the middle of any games. Best of luck on getting this to work.

I did just that, and think that I have it working now. I'll try again.

Enjoy your date! ;)

i got a date as well tonight with the misses due to this being our 5th. unfortunately, she doesn't trust the little one with any babysitters and the closest family is in Philly so we get to spend a romantic dinner try to get 2 kids to eat/burp/sit/etc :lol:

Alright! R&L is back on line. Denyd & G-man are having romantic evenings (well at least one is :D ) Is this a great team or what!

Well gents, once again we are the last team playing. We need to try and wrap this up this weekend.

1550 – 0
Reset prefs. Note location of Chin transport.

IBT: Battlefield Medicine built in Paris. Paris > Mass Transit in 4. Disease in York. Kiev Police > wealth. Tons of bombers & panzers built. Berlin 2 harbor > wealth.

1555 – 1
Dortmund will expand in 20, Chartres in 32, Dijon in 5 may be a problem, Leibnizgarten in 13, New Koeniggsberg in 26. No other border cities will expand in the relevant future.

1560 – 2

IBT: Besancon MTS > cathedral in 5. India begins Shakespeare.

1565 – 3

IBT: Frankfurt MTS > wealth. Munich police > wealth. Heidelberg court > wealth. New Frank factory > bank in 4. J Cruise market > wealth. Russia starts Shakespeares.

1570 – 4

Don't know what to do with all of the extra tanks, transports, etc.

Bugs, take it from here. I'm out of time for the weekend, and given the need for a quick finish...

OK, I've got it. I'll try and get it played tonight.

Please don't feel under any pressure to finish quickly. You are fine for time.

Pre-flight – 1570 AD - 18 Tiles from Domination. UN was built in 1540 AD. 20 turns would put the next vote in 1640 AD – Six turns early would make it 1610 AD when we want to start the war. Move some units towards China. Set up several workers on auto pollution clean up.

Early turns - We research Rocketry and start upgrading panzers. Renew the MPP with Cathy. Build the Manhattan Project China settles the northern island – good idea. Renew the MPP with Gandhi and give him rubber in the deal. Get our crew of workers out of India. These turns were mostly airlift units and transporting across the bay. I crank lux tax up as high as possible.

1610 AD – Make sure we’re clear of Chinese territory. Declare war. Start moving towards Beijing and bomb the city.
1615 AD – Kill four citizens in Beijing. Kill off the wave of units that marched north into Japan.
1620 AD – Beijing’s pop is now 12. Kill off all the healthy units in the city.
1625 AD – Beijing is captured. Gonna push on to the vote. Mostly just hitting enter.
1645 AD- No vote? Build Shakespeare’s. Press on and hit enter a few more times.
1655 AD – Hold vote.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2_Vote.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2_Final.jpg

We’re magnificent. Final Firaxis 6355, Jason 7998 That’s 11th place .

It’s been fun gents. If someone else wants to write a spoiler, that’s fine. If not, I’ll write one by Wednesday.

nice closeout bugs :goodjob: we'll do better next time :)

Nice finish Admiral Bugs - That 11th place includes being behind a bunch who didn't go for the variant - hopefully few went variant. What's funny is I don't think we had any mistakes in this game. All of our wars were successful and we conquered the home island without too much delay. Our people seemed happy and our tech pace really had limited delays and we managed to get Russia to help out a couple of times.

See you all in SGOTM3 (or another SG)

looking at some of the other threads, i'd say the main mistake we made was not leaving someone around that would vote for China. based on my new understanding of how the AI decides to hold a vote, we probably should have kept England or France in the game, constantly furious at us, so we could have won a 3-2 vote when China held the 1st election. instead, we had everyone gracious and in our hip pocket, so China didn't hold the vote and our victory was delayed by 20 turns.

Nice finish :goodjob:

It's a mystery to me under which circumstances the AI holds an election.

It's also a mystery why I couldn't load the last saves. I have checked my hardware and all seems to be ok. So that was not the problem.

Nice finish Bugs! Thanks for picking it up. Now that we're done, I'm planning (operative word) on going back and analyzing the turns of the teams who beat us in the period 1000BC - 1000AD to see what they did. This is the range of where each team "rounded the corner", and so should provide some insight as to how they achieved a greater slope on their point growth - for future planning.

Leibniz - glad to hear that there are no HW problems. Keep trying, and let us know how it works out with the SW. Maybe a corrupted DLL file?

13th is tomorrow, so we should get our rosters and posting sites, correct?

R & L - I think that would be a very worthwhile exercise. I think I will do likewise. If I ever get some time today => I hate Mondays. It should be very instructive.

Yes, tomorrow is the day. Any preferences for order of go?

I'm going to be out of town 7/15-7/18, so please schedule me accordingly.

Thanks

Bugs - Cancel my intentions. See I. Larkin's post in Spoiler #2. He is obviously WAY ahead of me! The good news is that it seems only three other teams went for the variant. The bad news is that Peanut beat X Team by 31 turns, and did it WITHOUT conquering the UN city. They won in an AI-called vote - apparently by NOT establishing aliances with the AI teams. Also, Grahamiams note from above applies.

An interesting move to note was "Misfit's Gambit" as performed by Team Scout. Brilliant move to fit the variant.

@ Denyd - Why don't we plan on having you lead us off again. Does anyone else have any holiday plans?

Our new thread is up.

No vacation plans until October.