SGOTM2 Game Thread

Welcome to your game thread for SGOTM2-Germany

Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2-start-position.jpg

Each team has their own save file. Please download and play from the correct save. If you use the wrong save the server will not accept your submission. Also, please make sure that the software version is correct. PM me immediately if it is not.

You can download your save file >>HERE<<. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php)

The Roster
bigchief
civ_steve
Keith Larson
Peanut
Peglegasus
Planetfall

Who shall start us out?

If I understand the rules correctly we are not allowed to give any hints as to “what is out there” if we have played GOTM 8.

One thing I am a little unsure of is Ring City Placement. Is it allowed or not? Is there any penalty associated with using it or bonus for not using it?

Since we are going for the variant we need to maintain good relations with others. That means no broken deals! It will also be to our advantage to avoid war. To do this we must be seen as powerful by the other nations. As far as I can tell power is based on the number of units and how much land area we control. Along that end let me suggest the following build priorities. Warriors and archers over spearmen. I have found you can get by with less spearmen if you use them as a mobile fire brigade which you rush to threatened areas. The other duties of spearmen in the early game is to escort settlers and archers as the barb activity increases. Finally we will need a few to place in exposed cities.

As for land control, granaries are key. Even if we can’t pull off a settler factory, a granary or two is well worth the investment. We want to expand peacefully as quickly as possible. War only makes people mad at us.

As for tech trading we should be aggressive. Hording techs only invites war. If we can get a decent price, lets sell.

For our game goals I cannot think of any Great Wonder that is vital to our mission. In the early game maybe one city at most pre-building. Anymore than that is a waste of shields and population.

Hello all. This is my first succession game and I'm really looking forward to it. I've checked out several SG threads so I understand how it all works. Just to make sure we are playing PTW correct?

I will be unable to play from may 27 to june 4 but will have internet access and can check in with the forums once a day or so to give input.

I consider the early game to be my strength but am willing to play anywhere in the roster. One thing I was thinking about was trying to trigger a Golden Age before we get panzers... that's a long time to wait. Obviously we would need a couple wonders. What do you all think?

That's all for now! Looking forward to the game.

Peglegasus

Peglegasus,

At Monarch level we don’t need a golden age to win. Remember we are going for a diplomatic victory without the UN. During the end game we are going to have to work very hard to avoid a domination or cultural victory. I think it is a mistake for us to build our strategy around Wonders, lets build them when the opportunity presents itself, but only when they don’t take away from our larger goals and are a very low risk.

We are going to have our hands full in the early game fighting off barbs and expanding. If you haven’t noticed we are in an area with lots of mountains and jungles, great land once it is cleared and developed, but very unproductive in the early game.

A tightly spaced city pattern makes sense at first as it will allow us share defenders and maximize the use of cleared and productive land. Later in the game we can raze the some “temp” cities to make room for the permanent ones. Temp cities build no improvements just defensive units, catapults, workers and settlers. To distinguish them I name them something like “Shantytown East” or “Berlin North Trailer Park”.

Hello all,

I'm looking forward to playing with such a distinguished group. We are up against some strong competition, but that only makes it all the better. I don't think we have to totally change the way we play early in the game, just because of the victory condition, but we need to keep it in mind as we consider our strategy.

Greetings Team Peanut!

Research speed is paramount to a fast finish with this variant; of course along the way we need to do a lot of building, and some Warring. Reputation needs to be kept up, so no deal breaking, no ROP rape, no War declaration with our units inside the enemies terrain, etc. Some warfare is good, once we can form alliances; in my experience, current and former allies are the best supporters for a UN victory.

I agree with Keith; in fact I rarely build Spearmen early; the PTW barbarian is usually controlable with Warriors, and the upgrade to Swordsman gives the same defense and triple the attack of a Spearman.

RCP should be fine, I think.

Initial research - maybe minimum on IronWorking? Look to see if we can get Alphabet and Pottery by trade, then IronWorking will be a good 2nd tier trade tech. Also allows us to build up the treasury.

Wonders - maybe build none initially (definitely do NOT build the Great Library!) Look to capture (or use a GL for) a militaristic wonder, then pre-build for Newton's to trigger GA just entering the IndEra.

Unless we have a food bonus, I'd stay away from Granaries initially and build cities.

I'm here through Monday, then on travel for at least 4 days, maybe 8 or 9 if we extend it. I'd like to play first or second, to get a turn in before this indeterminate length trip.

Whoever starts don't forget to check F10 for who our neighbors are. Pottery and Alphabet can usally be had for trade. Next to Ironworking, the Wheel is a good choice as well.

Why stay away from Granaries? I have found that not only do your cities grow faster, their average size stays larger during the intial stage of the game when population goes up and down because of settler building. This higher average city size really pays off in research and shield production.

If everybody hasn't seen it there is some discussion concerning the use of a "Diplomatic Dogpile" (as GK puts it) in the main SGOTM thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=79841&page=8

Everyone might want to take a look and post their opinions on the matter.

bigchief,

Are you going to get us started or would you like someone else to start?

Keith

It doesn't matter to me when I play, but since we haven't even heard from our esteemed leader, Peanut, we should probably wait and set the play order at that time. It doesn't look like we are going to get started before late tonight or tomorrow US time, so Civ_Steve might want to go first.

Peanut is in a different timezone I think. If it were me I'd let Steve kick it off, and then you will all have something to discuss for when peanut hits the boards.

Go for it Steve! I am ready to play.

Alright, I'll take first turn, and I've got the download. I would like to hear from Peanut before playing though.

I check F10 first always. If 3 of the civs are expansionistic, I'd say we should do minimum on IronWorking, or Wheel. If 2 or less, perhaps we do fast research of Pottery, followed by Minimum. What says the team?

How about 1st turn movements? Terrain to NW doesn't look promising; I'm thinking a move SE will still keep the 2 BGs within expanded city radius (along with the gold), keep us next to the river, and exchange 6 unknown tiles into our city (to the SE), taking out 2 Unknown to the NW. Worker goes E to work BG, initially.

A Granary is a must if we get a food bonus. If we don't have a food bonus I'd rather get a 2nd city out there; scouting should see if there are any food bonuses nearby that can take full advantage of a Granary. (And it might be good to get a 2nd city before the Granary, anyway.)

According to F10, there are 6 other civs, 2 of which are Expansionistic (Russia and England) (I think).

Any comments? I can start later tonight (9 or 10 pm, West coast time); or wait until tomorrow to let all thoughts come out.

Move worker first to the East BG before you move the settler. If things look promising to the E then move SE.

I would take the risk that you can trade of Pottery. Either go for Wheel ASP or Iron Work Min. The Wheel does not last long and you rarely get it first if you try the minimum research trick.

Good idea about the worker move first. We definitely want to keep the 2 BG within Berlin's initial radius. It looks like there's coast to the NW, so a move SE would also free some room up for future coastal city.

I think I saw Japan on the list of civs, too. So Wheel is already in the game somewhere. Tends to lead me in the direction of IronWorking at minimum, saving up the treasury.

AlanH's upload and game status sheet is Awesome! So far 3 teams have done the first step, and 1 (Team, Tao) has completed two.

I'll follow Mad-Bax's suggestion, and play and post tonight (hopefully). I'll check one more time before.

Ok, I've started the first set of turns. Worker move East reveals Game!! (See Image below). Settler moved SE, and Berlin founded in 3950. I'm working out what goes next, with this revealing.

We have one (quite well known) player who is interested in playing the variant. I would like to place him in this team if there are no objections.

Peanut checking in ... it's been a hectic weekend here. Yes, Civ_Steve, I live in Brisbane, Australia at 10 hours ahead of GMT (and 16 or more ahead of the Americas)

I don't know why I am honoured with a team name and nominal leadership - I expect we will run this as a sort of democracy where key decisions are agreed to by all.

I hope we can get our strategy nailed down quickly, particularly our ancient age plan, then trust each of us to play the game as best we see fit when we are at the wheel .

The golden rules in my opinion are :
- pick up and play the game roughly on time, or let us know if you will have a short delay.
- be prepared to pass on your turn as soon as possible if you can't make it - your turn will come around again quickly anyway.
- respect the decisions of others made during their turn playing, and expect others to respect yours.
- express your ideas freely, constructively and positively, so that we learn from eachother.

So - some strategy thoughts to chew over :

If we are to win without bulding the UN then we can 1) either capture it from whomever builds it before they hold an election, or 2) be big and loveable enough that we are the other candidate and that we get most of the votes.

I think that working towards option (2) is safer, however if we can bribe our way to a dogpile on whoever is likeliest to build it then that might work.

In any case a quick finish means fast research which means we need to be big and loveable anyway. I suggest that we aim to take out our neighbours as soon as practicable, and get two productive cores running, then be sweet and generous to everyone to push things along until Fusion is invented. Then we strike.

Ancient age strategy - I suggest that we get our settler factories running (with granaries) as soon as possible to expand as fast as we can. I like the idea of a tight ring of cities that we can abandon later if needed. Research IW at minimum, build only warriors and the odd worker or settler in our satellite city ring, and accumulate cash for a massive swordsman upgrade and then take over our continent. Rapid expansion should also mean we put our foot on more luxuries and resources. Hope we can trade for pottery fairly soon.

Roster - looks like civ_steve is ready to go, and the ideas for the first few moves sound ok to me. How about we just follow the roster from there, so Keith follows civ_steve, then Peanut and so on.

A last suggestion - when we write up, emphasise at the end any deals done in your round so the next player doesn't inadvertently ruin our reputation. I think our rep is going to be important to us this game.

By the way - we are playing PTW aren't we ? Speak now or be really confused when you try to load the game up ...

MadBax - sounds ok to me unless anybody objects. The more the merrier. Can you edit your first post to update the roster please ?

By the way - Who is it ?

Sorry Peanut! You ARE in a different time zone! :) (I'd always assumed you were from Georgia; obviously not)

I figured out how to get PTW 1.27 installed from my Conquests disk and still maintain 1.21 to finish off Gotm31. So, yes, we're using PTW 1.27, which should be advantageous for research based games.

Here's my Turn Log:

Turn 1, 4000 BC F10 List: Russians, French, English, Japanese, Indians and Chinese
Worker East (Game in Forest!); Settler SE

Turn 2, 3950 BC Berlin Founded; -> Warrior (4 turns)
Research Pottery at Maximum (decide Granary is quite desirable)
Worker ... hmm, start Road on BG; plan to MM for Science as available

(I really pondered this turn for a while; I came up with 4 basic scenarios, and felt 3 Warriors, then a Granary with Chop of Game forest was best; This requires Pottery, so Maximum Research on it)

Turn 3, 3900 BC Our score goes from 0 to 20 (yay!!)

Turn 4, 3850 BC MM Citizen to BG (Warrior still finished in 2; road will add +1 commerce)

Turn 5, 3800 BC Road completes (actually at the end of last turn); Pottery time drops from 12 to 8 turns
Worker - mine BG

Turn 6, 3750 BC Berlin fin Warrior; -> Warrior (4 turns)
MM Citizen back to Games
Warr1 W (more mtns ahead)

Turn 7, 3700 BC Warr1 NW (hey, there's Wheat on this side; on Expansion, original placement gets Wheat and Game)
Oh well, a bonus food for a future city

Turn 8, 3650 BC MM back to roaded BG
Warr1 W (mtns; lots of Plains on this side of things; possibly a Lake near Wheat)

Turn 9, 3600 BC Warr1 W

Turn 10, 3550 BC Berlin fin Warrior; -> Warrior (5 turns)
Leave citizen on BG, about to be mined
Warr1 NW (mtns; lots of hilly, mountainy terrain ahead; Floodplains to North)
Warr2 N

Turn 11, 3500 BC BG Mine finished; Worker SE (Game)
Warr1 W (into the rough zone)
Warr2 N (more Gold)

Turn 12, 3450 BC Berlin is size 2; Culture expands; Spice visible to South; our score is 41
Worker starts to Chop
Warr1 W (meets English Scout, with 1 turn to go to Pottery!!!)
Warr2 NW (yup its a lake)
Elizabeth: capital only, 10 Gold; Alphabet, Pottery; CerBur to our 10 Gold, BrzWrk and WarCode
She wants 10 gold for Pottery; Research only costs 2 so nope; reduce research to 30% (4 gpt avail)
Make deal, trade BrzWrk, WarCode and 1 gpt for Alphabet and 7 Gold

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cvst_SG2_bc3450EngCrop.JPG

Turn 13, 3400 BC Learn Pottery, start on IronWorking at Minimum; (I'm assuming England has already begun on Writing)
Berlin fin Warrior, -> Granary
Warr1 S (lake and Cattle)
Warr2 NW (2 Ivory in the plains!!)
Warr3 NE

Turn 14, 3350 BC Warr1 S; Warr2 N; Warr3 NE

Turn 15, 3300 BC Warr1 S (Spice, another Lake); Warr2 N (sea coast ahead!); Warr3 NE (Wheat and another river)

Turn 16, 3250 BC Warr1 S; Warr2 W (check out Floodplains); War3 SE (circle around)

Turn 17, 3200 BC Warr1 SW; Warr2 W; Warr3 S meets the Russians!
Catherine, 10 Gold, 2 cities; no Techs; we have 36 Gold and Alphabet; no trade

Turn 18, 3150 BC Warr1 SW; Warr2 W; Warr3 fortify in Hills (let's see what the Russians are up to)

Turn 19, 3100 BC Warr1 S; Warr2 W (met Eng Scout again); Warr3 remain fortified (Russian is heading North)

Turn 20, 3050 BC Warr1 SW; Warr2 NW (largish Lake); Warr3 S
MM BG cit to RiverForest (to complete Granary while size2)

Turn 21, 3000 BC Warr1 S (wheat and river); Warr2 NW (desert); Warr3 N (back to hill; Russian is back)

Basic situation: 2 Warriors off Exploring; 1 hanging around, checking on the Russian Warrior. (Sometimes I gift the civ 1 gpt just to send them off happy; not sure what Catherine's intentions are; she's Cautious currrently); Minimum research of IronWorking is moseying along; only Tech we're missing is CerBur, and we're paying 1 gpt to England for the Alphabet deal

Worker will finish Forest Chop at the end of this Turn; as placed, the Granary will be finished in two turns, with 1 spot open in food bin (at size2); I'd recommend a Settler next, with the Game space being Irrigated and Roaded.

What we know of the world:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cvst_SG2_bc3000mainRes.JPG

Here's the game save; I'll add pictures in next. (done) Who's Up?


Team Peanut Save - 3000 BC (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_BC3000_01.SAV)

Anyone want to switch places with me this round? I will be unable to get to the game for at least 5 hours and I thought someone else would like to get going.

Keith

Sounds good civ_steve. Alas the closest I've ever been to Georgia is New York. Not very close at all I suspect. Might be nice to visit it one day, though.

Keith Larson - we await your expert leadership. Go get 'em !

Shall we pump out settlers for a while eh lads ? I think We will need a few workers as well. They are a good investment early on, and I believe worth buying if the opportunity arises. What do the rest of you think ?

Welcome aboard Planetfall. Looking forward to learning from your experience.

Edit - just read your note Keith. I think we can wait for you to pick it up - a few hours won't make much difference. I am next on the roster and it is pushing midnight here now so I probably could not do it justice. From my modest experience it is best to keep to the roster so that we remember who normally follows who.

Let's reflect on the strategy and hear some more opinions before we get too deep into the game - so a day's wait is probably not a bad thing.

Yes, go for it Keith!

A Settler from Berlin should be next; any other unit will cost us gpt until we get a 2nd city. After that, Berlin should continue building Settlers; with the 2nd BG mined and a cleared Forest space we have a 6 turn Settler Factory going, at sizes 3 and 4.

Perhaps we should recall the Warrior in the far NW to the Wheat/Lake area 3-4 tiles NW, and plan a 2nd city adjacent to the Lake at distance 4 or 5. The Jungle to the South and the general mountainous terrain are limiting.

Also, I didn't do this (leaving it to the next person) but I would serously consider gifting 1 gpt to Russia at this point. IF Russia gets antsy and attacks our Warrior and succeeds (or even moves into our territory forcing a response), we become very vulnerable. An insurance policy of 1 gpt should allow us to form our initial empire in peace. Any thoughts on this?

is the ai l;ikely to attack this early in the game on monarch diff? i havent seen that happen much but then again i haven't played as long as you all.

i'm thinking settler #1 should go for the wheat to the ne, and settler #2 should go for the ivory and the flood plains to the nw. my 2 cents.

Peglegasus

Hi guys, will be able to play but not for about 7 hours.

It's been awhile since played a PTW game. All we have to do is
1. put in PTW disc instead of C3C, and
2. put save in PTW saves.

Is that right?

PF

Game Log

Turn 1, 2950 BC. Renamed all warriors to follow Civ-Steve’s names. Warr1 S sees furs to the S and English border to the W, Warr2 SW, Warr3 E. Wrk1 Irrigate. F3 Weak to Russia and Average to England. F4 nothing new.

Turn 2, 2900 BC. Granary in Berlin. Production to Settler. Warr1 SE, Warr2 W, Warr3 E finds spice to the SE.

Turn 3, 2850 BC. Warr1 S, Warr2 E, Warr3 N to scout out area around wheat. F1 Lux set to 10%. Berlin will produce settler and grow in 5 turns.

Turn 4, 2800 BC. Warr1 (York has been founded to the NW) move S, Warr2 N, Warr3 N sees woods and flood plains to the NE of the wheat.

Turn 5, 2750 BC. Warr1 SW, Warr2 W, Warr3 N looks like I found the ocean, Wrk1 road. Berlin will now grow in 2 turns! Russia now has two cities.

Turn 6, 2700 BC. Warr1 S and see huts, Warr2 N, Warr3 N and wets feet in the ocean.

Turn 7, 2670 BC. Warr1 SW, Warr2 NE, Warr3 W. Berlin at pop 4, Lux slider at 20%. F4 sell Alphabet to Russia for Masonry and 6 G, sell Masonry to England for Ceremonial Burial and 19 G. Russia is now polite towards us. MM 2 citizens to G to get more food as we only need 3 shields.

Turn 8, 2630 BC. Settler produced! After much thought will move to the wheat to the north for the following reasons: First with 1 BW and two BG it is immediately productive without any worker improvement. The wheat to the will require improvements and the Ivory will not get to us until the roads are built anyway. Will send wrk1 that direction however in prep for settler2. I suggest founding the city in the G to the NW of the wheat. It is tempting to go for the river, but we do not need to go beyond size 6 for a long time and during that time those 2 BG will pump out lots of shields when we need them the most. Of course this will be Peanut’s choice. Second Warr3 is close by to help if needed.
Settler moves SE to game. Wrk1 moves NW of Berlin to build road in forest. Warr1 S onto hill with Goody Huts, gets 25 G and see pink to the S (French?), Warr2 NE, Warr3 NW. F1 Lux to 0%. Production set to warrior.

Turn 9, 2590 BC. Settler NE to Mountain, Wrk1 builds road, Warr1 S, Warr2 E, Warr3 W. F3 we are now weak to the English as well. F4 the English have the Wheel and a worker to buy. Purchased the worker because the Wheel will go down in price once everyone else has it and workers are worth so much in the early game. EngWrk1 moves to help the other worker. This will speed the road to the Ivory.

Turn 10, 2550 BC. EngWrk1 builds road, Settler mover N to hill, Warr1 S to pink line see GH to the W, Warr2 N, Warr3 NW. 10% Lux. MM citizen to G by river for more food. Should Peanut change production to another worker or settler? Do we continue risking a weak military? Also give Peanut suggestions on the first city placement. This was fun!

Keith: You need to upload your saves to the GOTM Server for scoring purposes. The "Upload to Server" link is in my sig.

It is not strictly necessary to provide a link to the save in your game thread since once you have uploaded it, the next player can download it from the "download and scores" link in my sig. :)

Sorry about the upload. It has been done. How do you add the link and how do you add screen shots? While not new to the game I am new to this Forum stuff. BTW is their any way to change your Forum name. I kind of feel silly using my real name.

Keith

To change your nick ask Thunderfall. If you go to the main site frontpage his name is on practically everything and it is always linked. Ask him nicely and I'm sure he will oblige.

There is a thread on uploading saves and screenshots. You can ignore the uploading saves bit, but the rest is OK except for minor differences due to recent server software upgrade. You'll find that >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=55122)

If you find it confusing ask me again and I'll go through it. I need to go to bed now, but I can find the time tomorrow.

Too tired to play tonight. was trying to complete an epic game I started.

What's the play order?

Is UN the only victory condition?

tommorow

PF

Ok, I peaked. PTW 1.21 right? or do I need to repatch it. I thought PTW was at 1.27.

Game looks ok. Settler is moving to best 2nd city location by wheat. Next should be by lake and ivory. Don't go for spices yet, it is way too early for that.

Our world is not friendly, there are way too many mountains and jungles for a fast start so we need to be careful.

Biggest competition will be:
1. Russia
2. Chinese
3. French
4. Indians

France is a late game competitor, but Russia and China are usually aggressive soon. After the third city, we need some fort cities for building up the military.

Are we trying for RCP or not? It looks difficult on this map, but if going to do RCP we need to agree on the spacing of the rings. At least the first and second ring, after that it is moot.

How did we meet Russia? I don't see Russia on the known world, did they send a scout by? If so where was the scout coming from, east?

Later

This time off for good for today.

PF

Planetfall - Welcome to Team Peanut! We're playing in PTW 1.27f. I got my version going by doing a fresh install of the Original Civ3 disk, then a full install of my Conquests disk. (I renamed my existing Civ directory to save the existing install, which is good for GOTM, and I'll join the two together later.) Anyway, I was able to play PTW 1.27f with my new install by using the CSC disk, and selecting the Civilization application in the Civ3PTW sub-directory. Key thing is it only works with the Conquests disk.

At this stage, Team Peanut is trying for the Variant, which is a UN victory where we did not build the UN.

A Russian warrior was contacted just off our Eastern border.

RCP would be fine, if we can set it up. This terrain is tough for setting up a very organized civ.

Keith - Great Trade on Turn 7 :goodjob: Didn't cost us anything, and we got two more Techs, additional gold, and a polite neighbor. Also, I didn't even think to rename the Warriors, good idea! I also like the purchase of the English Worker; you didn't say how much it cost (usually just over 100 Gold), but the free upkeep and extra improvements make up for it in the long run.

I'll check out the save game and see if I can get an image up. It's about time to decide on city sites and whether RCP will work.

Alright Team, I'm attaching an image of the immediate area around Berlin. I've marked a few decent city sites at distance of 4 (blue X's) and 5 (red X's). There's not many, and they will require tons of Worker turns to improve.

To the NE (where the Settler is heading), Red X has immediate access to 2 BGs and the Wheat, no river access so eventual Aquaduct. Blue X has 1 BG and Wheat, and river access. Also, Settler can move and found safely at Blue X, if there are any Barbs in the Dark.

To the E, both X's have river access. The blue X can share the Game with Berlin. The Red will eventually have Incense within radius.

To the NW, both have Lake access, Ivory and Wheat. The Red X has more River tiles to the East (not shown). The 2nd Blue X can share the Wheat with the other X's, and is Lake accessed.

It occurs to me that it might be better to have small towns (size 2 or 3) closer in for a while. Working a Grassland, and 2 Forest spaces, this type of city would be a good Military producer, and you could get rid of it fairly later. Two good spaces for this are the Grassland WSW of Berlin, and the Jungle SSW of Berlin. They'd be easily connected and protected as well.

Berlin - I'd rather see a Worker or a Settler come out of Berlin, but I can understand building a Warrior at this time.

(As for the Blue or Red X's, I have a slight bias towards the Blue. For the Settler, not having the 2nd BG immediately available isn't a penalty for 20 turns (until it's size 3); by that time I'd hope to have a Worker up there to compensate, and the BG will be available once its culture expands. I also like that the Jungle Blue X to the ESE can share the Game space with Berlin; every 3rd turn Berlin can give it up so that food isn't wasted. I'd probably build the close in small cities first before filling out the Ring, though.)

my vote is with distance 4. i'd like to see whats immediately south of us too when the opportunity arises.

Peglegasus

My fellow generals : looks good so far. Great trades CS & KL, and the foreign workers will be very useful. Good, thoughtful advice from everyone as well.

Planetfall : Welcome. The roster is in MadBax's first post. You follow Peglegasus who follows me. If you have C3C then you should automatically have PTW1.27 - as per civ_steve's post. It works for me - any problems then post and we will work on a solution.

RCP distance of 4 to 4.5 seems good to me - close enough for foot troops to move between towns on roads in two turns, less for mounted troops. It also gives room for growth. A good compromise in my opinion.

I will now study your collected wisdom and slide into the driver's seat ... stay tuned folks.

Peanut,

Thanks. The C3C disk did not work with PTW, I had to use the PTW disk. I used to be at 1.27, but somehow it was downgraded. I will patch it. How long is each turn? I have not played a succession game before. It looks like 20 or 21 turns.

RCP of 4 seems best, we need the core building soon.

I'm not sure about the strategy of sword upgrade. We have few civs and they are far apart. Too far apart for archer strategy to work. What about a chariot to horseman upgrade, or a mixed upgrade mostly horse, some spears, swords and catapaults.

I had to calm down, it has been so long since I played PTW. Ivory != ancient cavs, ivory != ancient cavs, ivory != ancient cavs. Ok, got it.

We need 3 luxuries for Republic to work. I see only two. I wonder if hanging gardens is possible?

Question-- it has been a long time since played PTW, I forgot how military strength is calculated in this version. In the early versions it was primary by unit count. Is this the same or is it weighted? I know C3C is weighted but I don't recall where PTW was.

Wait, I see the 3rd luxury. We're in good shape.

Later.

PF

The English worker cost 106 Gold. A 4 to 4.5 RCP sounds good to me. There is not enough good land to support a closer ring. If this is the case then the settler should head for the red X on the river and build a warrior ASP. Barbs will be coming in force soon.

@Planetfall,
C3C *should* allow you to play PtW 1.27. I have different installations, so I have never tried it -I know that the problem has been solved for the GOTM: I can look for a reference for you if you want.
If -from what I understand- you have already got and patched PtW, even better... ;)

And, in SGs the first players usually gets 20 turns, then it is normally 10 turns each. It is of course up to the team to set their own approach -i.e., you may drop to 5 or climb to 15 depending on the stage of the game and the length of each turn.

The English worker cost 106 Gold. A 4 to 4.5 RCP sounds good to me. There is not enough good land to support a closer ring. If this is the case then the settler should head for the red X on the river and build a warrior ASP. Barbs will be coming in force soon.

Agreed we can't set any closer. I think a 4 RCP for the first ring would work better, I haven't looked ahead to the second ring yet.

PF

@Planetfall,
C3C *should* allow you to play PtW 1.27. I have different installations, so I have never tried it -I know that the problem has been solved for the GOTM: I can look for a reference for you if you want.
If -from what I understand- you have already got and patched PtW, even better... ;)
.

Mystery solved. I have both 1.21 and 1.27 PTW installed. One exe uses PTW disk and runs 1.21 the other exe used C3C disk and runs 1.27.

Back in ages long ago and far away I must have compared the 2 versions.

PF

...

RCP of 4 seems best, we need the core building soon.

I'm not sure about the strategy of sword upgrade. We have few civs and they are far apart. Too far apart for archer strategy to work. What about a chariot to horseman upgrade, or a mixed upgrade mostly horse, some spears, swords and catapaults.

...

Question-- it has been a long time since played PTW, I forgot how military strength is calculated in this version. In the early versions it was primary by unit count. Is this the same or is it weighted? I know C3C is weighted but I don't recall where PTW was.

...

RCP 4.x it is, then.

Not only are we too far apart for an Archer Rush, we also want these known civs doing research for us. Taking a civ out will reduce the collective research by 25% (I'm assuming we're about to contact France.) I'm not sure if I'd recommend building any archers: I don't think the Archers get a defensive bombardment shot (like they do for recent GOTMs), and we can potentially field twice as many Swordsmen for the same amount of shields. I'd recommend building only Warriors until we get the Wheel; then, with a town capable of 7+ shields and Horses connected, I'd recommend building Chariots for eventual upgrade to Horsemen (I usually hold off getting HorseBackRiding until I have a few chariots for upgrade). The new town to the NE should be a good unit developer; once we get a few more Warriors built, it should build a Barracks; likewise any other unit producing towns we develop.

I think we should scout, build, develop for quite a while. Once our primary core cities are in place and functioning, we should have good intel on our opponents. We can pick the best one to take good terrain from to form a 2nd core, and we're replacing their research capability when we are ready to. Usually late Ancient Age, before Feudalism is learned, is a good time for this. Either a Swordsman steamroll, or a combo Swords/Horseman push, would do the job.

PF - I've seen some threads on the military advisor's strength ratings, but I'm not an authority. I believe non-combat units like Workers are counted, but not as highly as combat units. I believe there are some other weightings as well (upgrading 10 Warriors to MedInf seems to increase my rating). I think Weak is < 80% of the other civ's rating, and strong is > 120%. Ballpark numbers.

Peglegasus - Occasionally an AI will take a pot-shot; it doesn't happen often. I'll sometimes gift an AI 1 gpt just to make it less likely; for 20 total gold I've established a trade relationship, made them Polite and given them a reason to leave me alone. Just an insurance policy, that's fairly cheap. (I think in one game they took the shot, and my Granary build became a 40 shield Spearman. That kind of threw my game off-track!)

Sounds ok, but since this is PTW and not C3C, we might think about creating at least one spear and one archer along the way. As I recall the way PTW worked was it counted if strongest type of units were available, and then the total count of units. Thus 1 archer and 50 warriors would count the same as 1 warrior and 50 archers. It was because of this type of error, the military weighting wzs changed for C3C. But it it works to our advantage to keep peace longer, the cost is very low.

This time before we have at least 5 cities is always boring to me. Important, but boring as there is so little that can be done.

PF

Ok ... into the driver's seat. Buckle up, clean the glasses, let's go.

Pre-turn Checks. Warr2 is having a grand northern tour. Warr3 is lurking around in case he is needed. Warr1 is very excited - a hut to visit, and some pink dudes to the south. Bring 'em on ! Settler is heading for a legendary huge blue X he had a weird dream about. It's somewhere beside a wheat and a river.

Berlin will build a warrior in 1. But hark ! The populus are becoming restless and some want to move out ! OK - swap to settler, and put those lazy folk to working the BG tile.

Nobody has anything worth trading.

Ok, here goes ...

1) 2510 BC Settler E to that blue X. Warr3 W to mountain - nothing in that dark spot after all. Warr2 N across river - boring, nothing new. Warr1 cannot decide ! Visit the hut, or check out the pink dudes ? Hut, Pink, hut, pink ? Pink it is. There may be a useful tech trade available. Warr1 South. Nothing but grass - where is everybody ? Let's see next turn ...

In Between Turns Aha ! It's Joan and the Frenchpersons. Warr1 ponders on the sheer absurdity of her horned hat, but says nothing. She wants us to push off. Ok then. However she will pay 35g for CB, so Ok. She will buy it from someone else anyway, may as well be us. At least now she is being polite.

2) 2470 BC Settler has arrived. No big blue X but we will settle anyway. Leipzig founded on plains beside river and wheat. Let's have a warrior just in case those nasty barbarians come visting. Warr3 heads NW towards the darkness. Warr2 (on his northern adventure) climbs a mountain and sees - spices, deer, forest and ocean. Ho hum. Warr1 heads back to visit the hut. Nothing to trade - Lizzie won't sell TW for our pitiful treasury.

IBT - nothing interesting.

3) 2430 BC Warr3 NW - nothing. Warr2 NE - gosh a mountain in the distance. He barely holds his excitement at the thought of climbing it. Warr1 knocks on the door of the hut ... Poop - the Hun family lives there - 3 angry yokels. Lizzie will "accept" 74g+7gpt for The Wheel. We fall about laughing at her naked greed and tell her to go soak her head. Berlin hits 4 and is unhappy. Lux to 20%, and work the grass to keep the food up.

IBT Warr1 is humiliated by the very first yokel he meets. Curses.

4) 2390 BC Workers head to BG to mine it. Warr2 heads to that mountain. Warr3 wanders along the coast and is bored.

IBT Russian warrior wandering about near Leipzig - seems harmless.

5) 2350 BC Settler done. Let's have another please my dear Berliners. This settler has also had a crazy blue X type of dream, this time to the northwest and a lake. What would Freud think ? Warr3 continues his coastal journey, and meets a cow. He gets so excited he needs to have an aspirin and a good lie down. Warr2 climbs that mountain and lo ! Fish in the distance - and another mountain ! He has an aspirin and a lie down as well. Lux back to zero for the moment. Catherine the Great (but great what I wonder) sells us a worker for CB+50g. Bargain eh what, seeing as she would get CB from someone soon anyway. Our new worker (RussWrk1) sets off to join the work gang.

IBT - nothing interesting.

6) 2310 BC Warr3 N - sees an English scout on a mountain. Poop - no useful huts around here probably. Warr2 sees deer, forest, grass and more mountains. His head swims with the giddy excitement of all this new and interesting scenery. Those busy Berliners have grown - better entertain them. Catherine now has TW as well and the price has dropped. Let's wait until Joan has it as well and then it will be dirt cheap !

IBT - nothing interesting.

7) 2270 BC Leipzig warrior (Warr4) done. Lets have another. Warr 4 will explore the jungle to the south. The work gang starts mining the BG.

IBT - nothing interesting.

8) 2230 BC Settler still looking for his blue X. "Should be right about underfoot ... now ... he mutters to himself". Warr4 sees jungle - no surprises. Warr3 sees a mountain to climb. Warr2 could not resist - he climbed another mountain and sees the east coast ! Nothing to trade.

IBT - nothing interesting.

9) 2190 BC Warr4 climbs a mountain and sees - wait for it - more jungle ! Hamburg settled right where a blue X could well have been drawn if some clever person had gone and drawn blue Xs on the map. Those Hamburgers start building a warrior. Warr3 climbs a mountain and sees boring plains. Better than black I suppose. Warr2 climbs - you guessed it - a mountain. Incense to the north ! Nothing to trade. Egad ! More Berliners - up the luxuries to 20% !!

IBT - nothing interesting.

10) 2150 BC Warr4 heads south into yet more jungle. Work gang scrambles to Hamburg wheat. Warr3 heads south again - that darkness to the west may be worth looking into. Warr2 reaches what looks like the northern tip of the continent. Yep - there is a mountain involved again.

Closing gratuitious advice Berlin will have a settler next turn. I suggest we keep pumping them out until the population dips too low, then build a warrior for sentry duty. Hamburg could do with a temple perhaps to capture the ivory. Leipzig could maybe build a worker next to irrigate the wheat. I believe that the short term priority is to grow as fast as possible, to build or buy a few more workers, and build warriors ready for a sword upgrade.

Looks like we are going for RCP at 4-4.5 distance. CS, PF and others - I agree with the warrior->swords and chariots->horses upgrades when the time is ripe.

Here's a link to the Save File (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_BC2150_01.SAV)

Here's Peanut World at 210 BC :
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=54980&stc=1

As Capt. Kirk would say - Mr. Peglegasus ... please take the con. Let's boldly go where no Team Peanut has gone before.

Peanut,

Good play. Loved the humor! I would like to suggest that it is not necessary for Hamburg to build a temple to get the ivory. A city along the river to the NW will bring the ivory into our control. I would suggest settlers are a better use of shields than temples at this stage in the game. Perhaps this is the time to decide on the distance of the second ring.

BTW it was not necessary for you to cross Joan's pink line in the sand. If you had checked F4 you would have discovered you had contact. No need to upset a lady, especially one with horns!

Keith

Ok played my turns but have to take the kiddos to story time at the library... have to post save and turn log when we get back! :p

Peglegasus

Please skip my turn today. It's my wife birthday and birthdays and civ don't mix well.
The earliest I could play would be tomorrow evening.

Interesting in looking at the save, have fun. I'll catch up next time.

PF

Ok here's my turn log. Man you guys are bold... undefended cities! I'm already nervous as this is around the time that barbarian activity starts up.

1) 2110 BC ugh! I hit the enter key to begin my turn and sure enough a barb pops out of the fog next to Hamburg. Berlin builds a settler and begins work on a doorman/ bouncer to keep out the riff raff. Will complete in 4 turns. lux back to 0 for the moment. I'm trying to figure out where to take this settler... the rough terrain makes me sad. I'm going for the blue x east since there were no objections to the city placement suggestions made earlier. The work crew is irrigating the wheat by hamburg.
warrior4: east- jungle.
warrior3: SE looking for barbs. lights up wheat 2 tiles from the cattle square found earlier. nice.
warrior2: SE- nothing interesting

2) 2070 BC Liepzig completes warrior. Fortifies as guard/ MP. There's a Russian warrior loitering around and I'm not so sure about him. Liepzig begins worker.
settler: E
warrior3: S- nothing interesting. just lighting up some dark spots on the map
warrior2: S- as above
warrior4: NE onto mountain to get a better view. Good thing too. 2 barbs 2 squares from our settler, one square from our planned city site.
Berliners need a little entertainment. Lux to 10%. That other barb is going to raid Hamburg on the next turn, which means we will lose 1/3 of our treasury. I'd rather spend that money on something than let him rob us. No one has workers to sell and no one has anything new. Joan is offering the best deal on the wheel: 80 gold. I talk her down to 69. Naughty. Nearest horses I can see are on the northwest shore of the little lake NW of Hamburg.

3) 2030 BC Warrior completed in Berlin- fortifies. Lux back to 0. Barb raids Hamburg for 10 gold. Would have been a little over 30 if I hadn't spent some of it. Workers roading irrigated wheat at Hamburg.
warrior4: NW to protect settler.
warrior3: S- nothing interesting
settler: S- to avoid barbs and rendezvous with warrior
warrior2: SW- nada

4) 1990 BC Hamburg completes warrior. Begins temple in 30. I'm thinking we will probably switch to something else though. Have to discuss it. Barbarians move away from the settler... settler moves into position.
warrior4: NW again to protect settler
warrior3: S
warrior2: SE- lighting up shoreline north of us

5) 1950 BC The barbarians move in. EEK!
warrior 4: NW onto new city site to protect
settler: unpacks, founds Konigsberg- warrior in 5
workers complete road at Hamburg wheat. Entertaining Berliners at 10% rate. Didn't realize that was another grass square immediately south of Berlin. The jungle was kind of hiding it. Send the work crew 1 tile north of Hamburg roading next to the duck pond.
warrior3: W to mountain
warrior2: S

6) 1910 BC Suspicions about the Russian possibly confirmed. He enters territory moving towards Berlin. I'm not going to say anything to Catherine. He might just be passing through. Another barb west of Hamburg
warrior3: SW
warrior4: fortifies in Konigsberg
warrior2: S

7) 1870 BC Liepzig builds worker and starts barracks (I change build to another worker later) Worker sent to wheat tile.
warrior3: SE- finds barb camp I suspected was west of Hamburg in the mountains.
warrior2: E
Hamburg crew finishes roads and begins irrigating next to pond. Hamburg size 2, temple in 18. The Russian moves further in to our territory. I still don't complain to Catherine about him.

8) 1830 BC Barbarian attacks Konigsberg. We defend successfully. Berlin grows to 5. Settler in 1 turn. Entertainment to 20%
warrior3: moves next to barb camp in the mountains. There are 2 barbs up here so I think I will fortify next turn. One of them is likely to attack after that.
warrior2: W
Russian moves in next to Berlin. If he attacks it will be from across the river so we should be fine, unless he gets lucky.

9) 1790 BC Berlin builds settler. The Russian moves away to the SW. 2 Englsih warriors appear to the West of Berlin. Growth in 2, settler in 6. 2nd barb moves away from Konigsberg.
settler: N from Berlin. I thought about sending him west to take the ivory, but with the russian, the 2 new brits, and barbs out there, I'm just going for the location east of the pond ( last blue x on the city discussion screenie).
warrior 3 fortifies next to barb camp.
warrior2: SW
lux back to 0%. Iron working in 3 turns.

10) 1750 BC Barbarian attacks warrior 3 and dies. Warrior then attacks barb camp and is successful. Konigsberg builds warrior. Fortifies as MP and sends warrior 4 back out scouting. Barbarian approaching again. Konigsberg begins barracks. Konigsberg will be a slow growth town, but after a barracks can turn out vet warriors for us.
settler: N
warrior2: S
workers have irrigated plains next to pond. moving them 1 tile SW to do the same there.
Russia and England now have writing and iron working.

Well I had fun with my first turns in my first succession game! I checked in with the other civs every turn to see if they had workers or new techs, except I think I might have forgotten on turn nine. Russia and England might have gotten IW and writing on that turn. They haven't traded to France yet and we are due to get IW on our own in 2 turns. I think we should wait it out and see if we get it before they trade to France, then we can sell it. The Russian looks like he's leaving so I'm glad I didn't complain to Catherine. I think the AI will do that sometimes just to see if you'll get uppity.

As for new city sites, I think the second ring should go at 8-8.5, but of course i'm open to suggestions. I usually do rings at 4 and 8 or there abouts anyway so that's one reason I'm leaning towards that, but it also works out quite well on this map. I'll post some screenies in a bit to show you what I think. Hamburg is still building a temple but I would like to see another city just beyond it at 8 or 8.5... that will give us the ivory in our territory and we wouldn't need the temple for it.

here's the save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_BC1750_01.SAV

ok here are the screenies. the red x's are city sites at distance 7-7.5 (if i'm figuring this correctly) and the blue x's are at distance 8-8.5. and since i'm still the newb, we can scrap these ideas completely if you guys see a better setup. note the horses on the west side. and there sure better be iron close by or i'll be upset.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/westsidev2.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/eastsidev2.jpg

Oh I forgot to mention, I meant to scout to the south of us in my turns but didn't get a chance because of the barb situation. we need to do that soon and plan the rest of the inner ring, so maybe i'm jumping ahead with outer ring plans.

Sorry, I haven't been participating in the discussion. I have been real sick the last few days. I don't know what I caught, but it has kicked my butt good. I am starting to feel a little better today, but with this cold and the medications, I don't think I can concentrate to do my turns right now. If we wait for Planetfall to play tomorrow, I will probably be OK to play after that, but if you guys want to keep it going, I don't mind being skipped.

Once again, I apologize for not doing my part for the team.

BC

I vote for a 8-8.5 ring. The Flood plain just NE of 3 is another good location and is on a river. Also don't overlook the square just SE of 4 for a 8-8.5 location. Why don't we take up bigchief's offer and keep going. We have a long ways to go and the game will slow down when we have more to move and report.

Keith

I like the 8-8.5 distance also, and agree with Keith, let's continue! I would like to see us grab that ivory soon. I marked position 15 instead of the square sw of it because it leaves all of the flood plain open for irrigation. we can get quick growth there and share some of the flood plain food with 14. other than that, I really want to see more of the terrain south of us. So who can go next?

Wow! This is quite exciting! Two turns in the last 24 hours. I'm on travel through Friday, so I'm unavailable to play until then (but I'll check in occasionally). If we skip PF and bigchief, I'd have to be skipped also, passing it on to Keith, I think. If PF is able to play tomorrow, I'd have no problem waiting; but if you want to forge ahead, it looks like Keith is up.

I like the 8.x ring, also; especially the space to the NW that brings the Ivory into our domain. If the only horses we have access to are to the far NW, we probably better start expanding that way. And I'd really like to see what's to the South of us.

IronWorking in 2? We'll know where Iron is soon, also. We definitely need to start getting some Vets out soon.

I'll check in tomorrow morning (PDT.)

@Peglegasus,

How exactly to resize pictures depends on the software you use. Anyway, they all have a Modify -> Resize or an Image -> Resize command (or the like) that you can use.
The most convenient width is 600 pixels.

Peglegasus - great work and an entertaining write-up. Yes, sending unprotected settlers off is a daring and perhaps somewhat foolish move, but once they settle the city is there for keeps no matter how many barbs come a-pillaging. Spending our treasury was a great way of minimising the pain.

I think 8-8.5 for ring two sounds good - a decent compromise between grabbing territory and keeping up with connecting cities together.

BTW Peglegasus - newb or oldb makes no difference. You are on team Peanut and every opinion counts. Keep the suggestions and insights coming !

Keith L makes a good point - if we settle blue-x # 16 on Peglegasus's map to grab the elephants then we should probably switch Hamburg's temple to something more ugly like a barracks ?

The guidelines for SGOTMS suggest around 24 hours to pick up so a day's delay for Planetfall is no problem for me. My feeling is let's keep to the roster so everybody gets a go in the early stages. For now, once you pick it up it's pretty quick to play 10 turns so things will keep moving at reasonable pace. I suggest that we only pass up our turn if we know we will have a longer delay.

However Keith if you have already taken up the various suggestions and played then - well - c'est la vie. We'll just move on.

If things slow down too much (or if folk want) I will float a suggested protocol for game handovers and pickups but things are going fine so far so we won't make it too formal if we don't need to. What do my fellow generals think or want on this ?

Bigchief - Hope you are improved real soon and that you can play this round after Planetfall.

@Peglegasus,

How exactly to resize pictures depends on the software you use. Anyway, they all have a Modify -> Resize or an Image -> Resize command (or the like) that you can use.
The most convenient width is 600 pixels.

Thanks, Karasu! I figured out how to do it. Was super easy.

I am convinced, lets stick to the rotation. There is no way I can play until after 9 PM Central US Time.

It sounds like you want me to continue playing as originally scheduled. I should be able to start re 7pm Central. Naturally this conflicts with Enterprise. But at this early stage 20 turns should not be too hard, especially since 20 minutes of an hour show are boring commercials.

PF

Plantfall,

You only have to do 10 turns. Only the first player on the first round does 20.

Keith

Thanks. Like I said at the beginning this is my first succession game.

I actually caught this error in reading Peglegasus' log.

PF

I've lost my copy of the Ring Placement diagram. What are the locations for next city?

PF

I've lost my copy of the Ring Placement diagram. What are the locations for next city?

PF
Planetfall - see civ_steve's map (post #34) and Peglegasus's two maps (post # 49). However it's your turn at the wheel, then steer us where you see fit - there are always unforeseen factors that arise as you play.

A quick question for you all - would you please post your timezone ? We may be able to reshuffle the roster to have quicker handovers.

I am in GMT+10, living in subtropical Australia. It's nearly winter now but that doesn't mean much here as our sunny winter days are often short-sleeve weather.

Upload is complete. Here's the link. Next!!!!
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_BC1500_01.sav

1750bc previous player
__preturn_ Reviewed file and there is a smidgen of room for optimization.
ANALYSIS
Civ is 4 cities in size and we have 3 workers. It looks like those policing warriors are setting a bad example and the people think they don't need workers. We will have to correct that horrible situation, what is Germany without great industrious workers? We seeded our civ with guest workers, but the cities are still sloffing off.

Well, what can we do. We need to focus on Leipiz as the example of a good model city 1 citizen, 1 improved tile, growth in 2, new worker in 2; perfect timing just when we will need a new improved tile.

Hamburg- 2 citizens, 2 improved tiles, 3 food and 2 shields, looks like this city has great potential

Konigsberg- 1 citizen, 0 improved tiles. 15 turns for citizen growth, barracks in 10???

Berlin-- 3 citizens, 3 improved tiles, but growth in 1, food is only 4 and shields is good at 5

WORLD RELATIONS
The Russians have such a grand delusion of being a great power. They know how to write but they don't know how to play poker, heh, heh, heh. They want French Contact and 36 of our hard earned gold. But they lust for pompus court dances with the French. They are willing to pay 18 gold and give us Iron Working for the priviledge of dancing in Paris. Stupid Russians, there is no way they can compete with the snobbishness of the French.

The English have graciously offered us writing for only 33 gold and French contact. Let's see France has 2 cities and nothing to trade yet. Hummm..

MOVES
1. Hamburg: changed build queue from temple to granary. We need growth and workers much more than we need a temple.
2. Berlin: changed queue to worker. We need to get Berlin's food up asap, and this is a good time to do it. There is only one turn of food and shields in the bin. Worker and growth in one.
3. Konigsberg: changed queue from barracks to warrior. Barracks would be good but we need a back up warrior and worker first.
4. England: traded French contact and 33 gold for writing. We may have gotten it cheaper later but with the gold Russia is giving us writing is only costing 14 gold. That's one turn of research.
5. Russia: gave us 19 gold for France contact. England would have sold this anyway so 19 is better in our treasury than in Englands

__AI turn__
1. Oh, oh, England is "polite" but 2 warriors moved with stricking distance of Hamburg. Too bad we can't send them back to their island.
2. barbarian moved between Konigsberg and Leipzip

__TURN ONE _ 1725 bc
1. Policeman1 sees barbarian and decides to chase away the barbarian criminal. Success.
2. War4 moves south, nothing new. So boring...
3. War2 moves SE
4. wrk2 is really really hungry and so starts nourishing the wheat
5. settler nw 1
6. police1 towards hamburg
7. worker3 along road also
8. war 3 towards hamburg
9. Berlin: queue warrior
10. lux slider to 1

__AI turn__
1. England declares WAR
2. Policeman 4 deserves a metal, he repelled the criminal attack of England

__TURN TWO _ 1700 bc
1. war3 moves towards hamburg for extra defense
2. police1 moves to hamburg, we just can't lose this city
3. work3 starts clearing land
4. war4 moves towards mountain, he sees iron and downs a keg
5. war2 moves south
6. wrk4 is hungry and craves wheat, so goes to work in the fields
7. pol2 moves back home and rests
8. settler wants to feel gold so rests on mountain top
9 foreign workers start laying water pipes

__AI turn__
1. police1 beats off upstart English criminal and is awarded a bullet proof vest.
2. English scout runs home

__TURN THREE _ 1675 bc
Just parted units. Not much to play with.
As feared, Russia is expanding in strength. The lost of 2 warriors to our police We gamble and police gets English scout. We are still weak and we hear there are more barbarians near hamburg

__AI turn__
Found barbarian camp and see some more iron

__TURN FOUR _ 1650 bc
Just slowly moving south, not much to do.

__AI turn__
no sign of any movement

__TURN FIVE _ 1625 bc
War6 and War7 passed initiation rights and are now working a full adults. We now have an average military and the same power strength with the English

__AI turn__
no sign of any movement

__TURN SIX _ 1600 bc
Good news bad news. We planted Frankfurt on Red X #11. Bad news we lost a mighty warrior to barbarians. They have a warrior and horseman. They are too close to Frankfurt

__AI turn__
Here comes barbarian horseman

__TURN SEVEN _ 1575 bc
workers retreating to Hamburg, just enough time. Moving warriors back to cities.

__AI turn__
Now there are 2 barb horses and 1 barb warrior

__TURN EIGHT _ 1550 bc
Workers run away from horsemen, warriors move back to cities, Takes forever without roads.

__AI turn__
Barbarbians are moving closer

__TURN NINE _ 1525 bc
Moved warriors in defensive position.
__AI turn__
One barb warrior died.

__TURN TEN _ 1500 bc
1. Peace with England for Mysticm and 2 gold

We need at least one barracks built and a couple archers for Barb horsemen.

Images coming in a bit. Harder to do on XP.

PF

Here's the image.

Planetfall - excellent play & an entertaining writeup. Smooth trading and a well fought war. Curse those English dogs - we will remember their foul treachery in years to come eh what ?

I admit to being a little optimistic by not keeping troop building to match settler production, figuring to risk barb attacks but it gets tempting for AI civs at times.

If we can have Hamburg churning settlers as well as Berlin then we should get onto a rapid growth curve and leave those other teams quaking with terror in our dust as we surge towards victory ! Or something like that ...

You are right about the workers - they are crucial to pumping our economy. I reckon we should buy them whenever they are on the market as well as training our own.

Bigchief - your time has come. Gird your loins and plunge into the fray. We will be cheering from the sidelines.

Good trading and Good defense, PF! It looks like we have a 7.x 2nd ring. We got IronWorking in the initial trades; I can't load the game right now, so what are we researching and have we sped up the reseach rate? With Writing under our belt, Literature would be a natural for us Scientific Germans. Good performance on the variant will require rapid research, so I think we should boost the research rate up to whatever is sustainable.

I can see a couple more city sites to the South (in the Jungle Zone) for our inner 4.x ring. (4SW/1NW is a jungle-river site, which would have access to a BG to start with; 3SW/2SE puts a jungle-river city right on the spice with no great tiles to work with, maybe a forest near Berlin, or 3SW/3SE is just across the river and maybe there's something nice further South.) South still looks to be a lot of work; terrain kind of forces us in the upper half of the space we know about.

Barbs are definitely encrouching. Even though they're on the Mountains, it's probably better to attack; we get an Offensive bonus vs Barbs, and they only have 2 hps.

I live in California; that's -8 relative to GMT, I believe. bigchief, I hope you're well enough to take it.

Going for Monarchy. If lucky we might get Hanging Gardens. This path is not the first researched in PTW and we should be able to make good trades for Monarchy if we can get it first, it is usually near the last tech in Ancient world for PTW. In C3C it is about first, but this is PTW variant.

PF

Forgot to mention, if we are going to get Monarchy to trade, we need to increase research rate.

Frankfurt and Hamberg are both to be settler creator cities. I don't know if we can make settler pumps out of them yet. I think so but have not analyzed it yet. The entire NW quadrant looks like it must belong to Germany. We need to expand that direction early to get horses.


I forgot how long it takes to do the write ups. As you noticed I got tired partway thru the turns.
It will be most interesting to see how the rest of you all play this.

PF

I'm starting to do a little better, but I am far from well. I need to be skipped this time. My apologies.

BC

Edit: I am in US Central Time Zone.

Peanut,

Is this correct for you?

Order Player TimeZone Location Relative Time
1 bigchief GMT-6, Central Lake Superior 06:00 PM, Th
2 civ_steve GMT-8, Pacific Ca 04:00 PM, Th
3 Keith_larson GMT-6, Central Lake Huron 06:00 PM, Th
4 Peanut GMT+10, Aus Aus 10:00 AM, Fr
5 Peglegasus GMT-6, Central Texas 06:00 PM, Th
6 PF GMT -7,Mountain Colorado 05:00 PM, Th

Well, BIGCHIEF is ill, CIV_STEVE is out til Friday. So it looks like either Keith plays today or we wait until tomorrow for Civ_Steve.

Either works for me. Sounds like your call Keith.

PF

I should be able to do my round this evening. BTW I live off the shores of Lake Michigan, not Huron. Lake Huron is in the Eastern Time Zone. I have found Barb Hunter Killer Groups of 1 Spearman and 1or2 Archers works very well at this stage of the game. Continue pumping out warriors for crowd control and protection. Does this sound good to everyone? I am also going to claim the silks even though the land is poor. The Russians have grown large enough that they may send a settler to claim it before we do if we wait too long. Other than that I am going to continue moving us to the NW. I will read everyone's thoughts before I start this evening.

I should be able to do my round this evening. BTW I live off the shores of Lake Michigan, not Huron. Lake Huron is in the Eastern Time Zone.
I'm surprised I got that close. You and Big_chief did not share your location so I just assigned you to a Great Lake.


I have found Barb Hunter Killer Groups of 1 Spearman and 1or2 Archers works very well at this stage of the game. Continue pumping out warriors for crowd control and protection. Does this sound good to everyone?

Sounds good. The other alternative later will be spear and horseman.


I am also going to claim the silks even though the land is poor. The Russians have grown large enough that they may send a settler to claim it before we do if we wait too long. Other than that I am going to continue moving us to the NW. I will read everyone's thoughts before I start this evening.


I don't see silk. I see ivory, spice and incense. Ivory we're going for. Incense would be ok as there are at least a couple of normal tiles there. Well actually hills but that's ok.

If you mean spice in south, towards Russia? I would hold off awhile. Here's why:
1. Look above Blue X 15 and 16. A wheat and cattle combination.
2. We want to expand with more productive cites than AI and not just more cities. Konigsberg is a good example of a marginal city.
3. It would be cool to have 3 good cities pumping out settlers: hamburg, Frankfurt, and New city NW of 15/16.
4. We don't really need the 3 luxuries yet. We are still in despositism.
5. Horse are more important to our survival than spices.
6. If we settle in NW and NE, the barbs could be pushed down to France and Russia, ah shucks.
7. Who cares if Russia grabs spice. It is all poor land and takes much work to become productive. It is more effective to let Russia grab the spice, clear some land and then conquer the city. We are going to be having to have war with Russia fairly soon jus tto slow down their expansion. From the mini-map it looks like Russia might be East of France.

If the barbs settle down, it would be nice to know what is to the East and South.

Have fun, I'm sure you will do well.


PF

Game Log

1500 BC Pre-round Housekeeping. Increased research to 70%. We will go full blast for Monarchy. Moved citizen to plains at Berlin to grow one turn sooner, settler will still be built in 3 more turns.

1475 BC Warrior next to horseman on gold wins and becomes a vet. Rename him War8. War6 is attacked and wins as well! Berlin’s influence expands! Warrior protecting worker next to Berlin renamed to Police5 and moves to Berlin to do crowd control. War6 moves W. War8 NW. War3 N. War4 N. Wrk1 starts road on hill, Warrior on the same hill renamed Police6 and fortifies to protect all those juicy workers. EngWrk1 and RusWrk1 join in the roadwork. Move lux slider down to 10%.

1450 BC Thanks to a cleared forest Berlin completes a settler one turn ahead of schedule, another is on the way! Wrk3 starts mining (until it is completed I will sift a citizen between forest and the newly cleared square to complete the next settler in 5 turns). Police5 fortifies in Berlin. Settler moves west. Newly created Warrior in Leipzig renamed Police7 and fortifies. Leipzig start producing a worker. War7 moves S to escort settler. War 3,4 and 6 continue NW to clear barb camp. War8 moves N to protect the northern flank. Lux slider down to 0%. Science at 100%. England and Russia both have Math. I will wait until France has it and buy it cheap.

1425 BC Hamberg has produced a Granary; starts a worker. England has started the Oracle (what a waste of shields and population)! Moved Berlin citizen to forest, pop growth still in two turns. Warrior army passes through Frankfort on the ways to destroy barbs. The people of the city give them a warm welcome. The young German girls are impressed by their stone clubs! War8 continues N and sees no bad guys. War7 and settler visit Hamberg.

1400 BC Horseman sighted riding in the plains to the NW of Frankfort. War3, 4 and 6 move NW to bait the horseman to attack across the river. Settler and War 7 will wait it out in Hamberg until the battle is over. Wrk 2 and 4 have completed road on Mountain, move NW of Leipzig to develop BG. Wrk 1 and friends move off hill (no point in mining it yet because the added shield will be lost to corruption) to the south to connect Iron. Here is my logic: Unconnected cities can still pour out cheap warriors, Berlin and Hamberg are our worker and settler factories, Leipzig is switching to barracks will be become our armory and Konigsberg will alternately produce workers and spearmen until its land is developed. War8 moves W into woods to temp horseman to attack. Policeman6 moves south to protect workers on Iron hill. Policeman3 moves NW out of Leipzig to protect workers.

1375 BC Horseman did not take bait and moves toward Hamberg. War1 moves out of Hamberg to do battle and wins becoming a veteran! Warrior stack moves NW into woods in preparation to the attack on the Marcomanni camp. War8 fortifies in woods in prep for the settler coming from Hamberg. The settler move out of Hamberg to the woods to the N. Workers on Iron Mountain start their road. Police6 fortifies. We will have iron in 5 turns! Konigsberg completes War9 and starts another warrior. A new horseman has appeared to the NE of Leipzig. War9 moves to hill W of Leipzig to help in the defense. Wrk4 and 2 start road on BG. Policeman 3 moves back into Leipzig. Berlin is now at 5 pop. With two citizen in woods we will have a new settler next turn! 10% Entertainment Tonight.

1350 BC War3 attack Marcomanni camp and easily wins! 25 gold added to our coffers! Won’t those blond girls back in Frankfort be impressed now! War6 moves to the east to the woods so War8 can move to Leipzig to get upgraded to Swordsman. (This is an honor that only vets receive in peace time.) War 4 moves NW to join up with War3. Hamberg has produced Wrk5 who moves N to link to new city at the woods. Settler moves into woods. Hamberg will produce a new settler in 8 turns. War5 and new settler in Berlin move the first ring city sight 4.5 squares to the SW. Police3 fortifies in Leipzig. War9 moves S on Mountain. From here he can add is strength to three cities if needed. Vet War1 start moving towards Leipzig to get upgraded. Newly created Police7 at Frankfurt moves towards Hamberg and Berlin to report of duty. Frankfurt starts a new warrior. Wrk 2 switches to mine. EngWrk1 stops road work and moves W to clear jungle mine so Konigsberg can start another warrior before iron starts rolling in. Science 100%.

1325 BC EngWrk1 starts clearing Jungle. War5 and settler SW. Munich founded in woods. Starts producing Warrior. Wrk5 starts road. War 3 and 4 move back towards our civilization as we are pumping out settlers so fast now. The Magyar (Headless) horseman foolishly moves next to Leipzig thinking it can attack our workers. War9 comes rushing down is Mountain post and kills him. Everyone else follows their previous movement orders. War 8 starts moving towards Leipzig. Science moved to 90% to save a little gold.

1300 BC The French are now foolishly building the most worthless wonder the famous Oracle. Our people are not impressed! Road complete, Wrk4 adds his effort to Wrk2 in building a mine. War9 moves back to his mountain perch. Wrk3 has completed his mine, moves SE to start road in woods. War 3 & 4 move towards Munich. Police7 moves toward Berlin. Everyone else continues their orders. Entertainment Tonight at 10%, Science at 90%. Poly in 8 turns.

1275 BC. Two Alemanni horsemen ride out of the west and stop next to War 3 & 4. They quickly dispatch them. Wrk3 begins road. Angle and Pheonicians show up in the south. Ent down to 0%. Science stays at 90%.

1250 BC. Our workers have completed a road to bring Ivory into Berlin. This will make our citizens happy! Leipzig has completed Barracks, starts Warrior. Konigsberg builds Warrior (War10) and start another. This will be her last warrior. Wrk2 and 4 move SE to improve plains next to river. Police3 moves to protect them. War10 joins war9 as a reserve. War4 join war 3 as a barb killing stack. Wrk5 SW to connect Frankfurt. Heidelburg founded, starts producing warrior. Barbarians are at the gate, but iron is due next turn and two vet warriors are positioned for upgrade. Settlers are pouring out almost faster than we can protect them! Life is Good! Poly in only 5 turns.



http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_BC1250_01.SAV

Good set of turns! Poly is very valuable, and we should get good trades for it. I generally prefer Republic over Monarchy; the extra commerce is the key to faster research, which is a requirement to do well with this variant. War Weariness usually isn't a problem, if you hit them hard and fast!! :D We're can only afford one Anarchy period (not being Religious), so I'd recommend getting to Republic and changing as soon as we can afford to. (Army costs usually help dictate this.)

Leipzig, with a Barracks, would be a good Vet Warrior producer; once it has 5 useable shields, one every 2 turns. Konigsberg, with ability to use irrigated Games space once every 3 turns (with MM) makes sense to produce Workers (and Warriors) until its terrain is developed. The far-off Wheat/Cattle space wont be productive unless the FP is put up there (our palace moved). I'd definitely keep moving to the NW to get those horses; but we still need to know what's present to the South and further East, too.

I'm a big fan of connecting Iron, upgrading Warrs to Swordsmen, then pillaging the space. This way, all cities can be connected, which give them access to Luxuries and allow them to grow fully.

Maybe, as a Team, we need to decide which Government and which Tech paths we should pursue. (Obviously the player with the current set of turns has to respond to whatever opportunities or hindrances pop up, but there should be a general approach decided upon that we would all try to follow.)

I've already said we should go to Republic as soon as we can financially. The only true advantage that Monarchy has over Republic is no WarWeariness (even that isn't a big issue; in Gotm25 as the Mongols I was at war with successive civs for a thousand years as Republic.) Since we're going for the variant, we can't afford a lot of wars, so I see no advantage to being a Monarchy. (Like Peanut said, we want to be Big and Loveable.) What does everybody else think?

If we decide on Republic as our next government, then after finishing the Poly research, I'd suggest we move quickly towards Republic by researching Philosophy, Code-of-Laws and then Republic, next. Poly is an expensive Tech, and I'd hope we could get more than Math for it. Perhaps learn Phil, and if something else (like Map-Making) doesn't pop up, trade Phil for Math and see if we can't trade Poly for Construction or Currency down the line.

Another thought - Forbidden Palace placement. We haven't built a city yet on that hill just NE-E of Hamburg. This is fairly central, and maybe would be a good spot for the FP (planning to Palace Jump later). Berlin is near the edge of things right now, and unless there's some great territory just on the other side of all that Jungle to the South, we'll likely want to move our palace later. If so, a nearby, central FP is a good idea.

It's late, and I'm afraid I'll start to really ramble. What does everybody else think about these topics?

Not quite awake yet, but great writeup. Just a couple of quick points:

1. monarchy research is only for 1) trade value and 2) possible Hanging Gardens.
2. We should go to republic as soon as we can.
3. This is not C3C, we should have 2 sets of 2 ring cities. Atter that they can be anywhere. I would suggest to NW somewhere in the neighborhood of the 2 lakes. We can then have 2 full rings around both the FP and Palace.


and the girls oogled at the stone axes as the warrior army paraded thru.

GREAT!!

Time to make coffee.

PF

Peanut,

Is this correct for you?

Order Player TimeZone Location Relative Time
1 bigchief GMT-6, Central Lake Superior 06:00 PM, Th
2 civ_steve GMT-8, Pacific Ca 04:00 PM, Th
3 Keith_larson GMT-6, Central Lake Huron 06:00 PM, Th
4 Peanut GMT+10, Aus Aus 10:00 AM, Fr
5 Peglegasus GMT-6, Central Texas 06:00 PM, Th
6 PF GMT -7,Mountain Colorado 05:00 PM, Th
Yes, thanks. Looks like we just stick to the roster as it stands. I was just checking to see if we had anyone from GMT +-1 or 2, but alas no.

Well, the kids are in bed now, I've had a coffee, and I am next on the list. So, I'll strap on the armour and wade in. Stay tuned folks ...

Looking good, all! I'm glad the iron is so close. A consolation to our rough terrain.

Peglegasus

As for goverments I am for Republic all the way. Planetfall had already started us on the path to a Monarcy trade. As soon as we get Poly I would suggest we move the slider down to 10% and use the gold to upgrade warriors. If we hold on to Poly for a few turns we may get a few more techs and we will have a head start on Monarcy. I like the double lake region for the sight of a second ring. The area S of Berlin may be jungle now but once it is cleared jungle tends to have a higher ratio of BG. So we might want to think twice before palace jumping.

Keith

Polytheism has been a pretty useful research path in my games too. I would expect around the time we finish that the AI will have horseback riding and possibly map making or literature, and of course they already have math. So we should be able to get most of those with polytheism. I think we are all in agreement about going to republic when its available... it's my understanding the monarchy research path was for trade purposes. I've found this very useful in my ptw games too. By that time code of laws and philosophy should be available for trade, and possibly construction. Which of course would launch us into the MA's.

I'm doing much better today. I will download the save after Peanut plays, and catch up with what is going on. I should be able to play my turns when they come up again.

I'm back, and checking in. Bigchief, I'm glad to hear you're feeling better. That must have been some illness to knock you around for so long!

The general feeling seems to push on towards Monarchy, even though all want to eventually change to Republic. Monarchy does give you trade ability, but so does Republic. BTW, not only do I think we should go to Republic, I think all our neighbor civs should go there as well!! (If we decide to isolate one of them and attack, maybe not that one.) Getting everybody up to Republic is a great way to increase the research rate. I'd want to time the trade to get the remaining AA Techs, and whatever free Tech Russia gets, but that time is coming quickly. (And we'll probably have to trade off or gift the two free MidAges Techs to everyone else so they'll research new stuff for us.) We can not afford another 40 turn research for anything, not if we wish to be competitive; we can get all the free gold out there with the trades coming up so we don't really need to do minimal research to be able to afford our upgrades. And Hanging Gardens is nice (and I do want to build it), but I don't want to delay the direct path to our goal by researching one optional government tech, and then have to research the other or wait for the AI to do it. IMO and experience, that's too much delay.

If the team wishes to pursue the Monarchy path, I'll say no more. And I have no doubt we will achieve a good result regardless (this team has solid players), but I think we'll be out of the running for the Gold Laurel.

Time & family press so a just quick summary here. Sorry no time for maps yet but we can see all of our continent now ... read on. The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_BC1000_01.SAV)

Pre-turn Checks. Economy fine. People happy. Treasury excellent. Scientists sweating and working overtime in their laboratories. Nothing worth trading. Keith has passed over a finely tuned game. Let's hope I don't foul it up ...

IBT Iron connected up. Barbs approach Heidelburg.

1) 1225 BC Another band of Berliners is ready for new adventures. They head due south, and a War10 moves to join them. War8 and War1 are rewarded swords for their valour, becoming Sword8 and Sword1. More plains being watered beside Leipzig. War5 successfully practices his axemanship on the barbarian outside Heidelburg. The road to Frankfurt is commenced.

IBT Dull dull dull.

2) 1200 BC War5 returns to his station. Sword1 heads to join the southbound settler. Nothing to trade.

IBT Dull dull dull yet again.

3) 1175 BC Leipzig builds warrior who is fitted out with a new sword. Another sword started. Sword1 bloods his blade on an Angle horse foolish to enter German territory. A short, sharp lesson for that upstart tribe !

IBT Even duller, but a barbarian horse came up to greet our brave northern warriors on border patrol.

4) 1150 BC The Hamburgers outfit a settler party. They will head into the hills north of Berlin. Frankfurt connected, now to irrigate those flood plains. Nuremburg settled in the jungle, a worker is first on their priority list. War4 shows the horseman the business end of his stone axe. The horseman is briefly interested before heading off to Valhalla or wherever it is they think they go. And somebody, maybe Joannie, struck it lucky ! Everyone has Maths and Maps now ! Except us.

IBT Boring in extremis !

5) 1125 BC We are Polytheistic ! Now we aim to be Lawful@max in 10t. The road to Heidelburg under construction. Let's trade - Joan gives us Maths & Maps & TM & 75g for Poly. Lizzie gives WM & 50g for Poly. Cathy gives WM & 80g for Poly. We buy Joans WM for 60g. Nobody has any of our maps though.

IBT Nothing at all.

6) 1100 BC A settler from Berlin. These are keen on incense so they head that way. A Leipzig swordsman moves to join them. Cologne settled N of Berlin, they start building a worker.

IBT Another horse visits in the north. Boring otherwise.

7) 1075 BC Another barb horseman gains intimate but short lived experience with a fine German stone axe. Joannie got lucky again - she can now ride horses, but she hasn't shared this knowledge around yet.

IBT Dull dull dull yet again.

8) 1050 BC. Nothing of interest. Joannie hasn't sold her horse knowledge yet.

IBT Dull dull dull yet again. Barbarians wandering about but we scare them I think ...

9) 1025 BC Hannover founded on the Incense. They start a warrior. Joannie still hasn't sold HBR - she only wants WM&120g. Sorry.

IBT Dull dull dull yet again.

10) 1000 BC Workers move to build road to Hanover. A warrior and sword built. Cathy and Lizzie know Philosophy. Cathy only wants WM for it ... nope not yet.

Closing gratuitious advice A settlement by the sea may be good to get an exploration galley out and about. Otherwise - I think we should plot a course for Republic and build up a sword force for some "foreign relations". Not a very inspiring turn. Over to you Peglegasus. Glad to hear you are improved Bigchief.

Couple of things this am:

1. Glad to hear BigChief has beaten off the nasty bug
2. Rethought need for Hanging Gardens. It might be better to let one of our continent sharers to build it and then just acquire it. There are 4 luxuries on this continent, not just the 3 as initially thought.
3. Since we are switching to self research, we need to build towards having 5 good production cities.

Finally, I suggest we all have 2 goals, particularly as we review the turns.

A. Discuss how we are going to play this game going forward, and
B. Offer suggestions to the person who just played.
-- what was really good about their play [if anything that turn, some turns will be boring]
-- other alternatives to playing the turn that might help that player in the future.

Check in later.

PF

Interesting to see the full continent finally. Anyone up for an early little war? I'm looking at the Russian territory because they are so close. Moscow looks like an easy target and it would really hurt them to have their capital and best producing city taken out so soon. They are also expanding north towards us, albeit slowly, so if we take moscow and maybe another city we could fill inbetween with settlers of our own. Also it doesn't look like they have iron hooked up...

And since I've opened the subject of war, how much of this continent do we want? How much territory do we need to have a fast research rate? If we want the whole continent we should start working towards that now. I think the English will be our toughest competitor. Russia looks like it could go down easily. I think if we want it, we can have the continent by the middle of the next age. I know we are going for a diplomacy win, but if we take these other 3 civs out we will be in great shape to compete with the other continent.

What do you think?

1. I think we want the full continent and then stop expansion. It is so much easier to play if have full continent.
2. England won't be toughest. It will be either Russia because of UU, Cosack, or France, because it will be ahead in techs.

I haven't looked at the latest save, whenever you think it is wise to go for war, I have not objections.

PF

I think we need to set up a coastal city soon, and send out galleys to meet the other civs. We can speed up the tech pace quite a bit, if we get all the civs involved in the trading.

I am in agreement with going to war soon.

Indeed the Russian cossacks are tough, but we should be done warring before they ever get them. At this point the Russians have no iron and no horses. In fact they seem to be the least organized of our three rivals. The English have iron hooked up already so we will need a well prepared force to go against them. Horses will be available to them too as soon as one of their towns expands. The french have iron within 2 squares of one of their cities and horses inside their territory already. Looks like the English are about to build a city right on our border.

I'm getting ready to play my turns now. There is a settler due on the next turn and I think I will go to the coast with him to get some galleys started. Several swordsmen are being built and I will group them in preparation for a strike south.

Edit: All right I started my turn and haven't done anything yet. We have a target of opportunity here. I can hit this English spearman escorting a settler with our swordsman on the mountain. Would give us two free workers and prevent England from settling this nice spot. Would also start a war of course. The other things you can see in this shot are the proximity and vulnerability of the russian capital and another source of horses right on the border of Smolensk. Should I take this shot at the spearman? It's really tempting.

Again, your call. You probably have a good chance of success in getrting 2 workers. I won't take on both England and Russia now. Do you want 2 workers or Smolensk, or bide your time?

FHI- I usually have difficulties with AA and don't start taking off til near end of Middle Ages, so I don't want to say do A or B.

PF

Russia is a much better fit for our first war. As you said, England already has Iron, and may soon have horses. If we try to take the fight to them, our forces will be sitting ducks, as we trudge slowly across the jungle and mountains to get to them. We could sit and wait for them to come to us, but I doubt we can do enough damage that way to get anything useful in a peace settlement.

My 2 cents.

Does this game use standard rules? Corruption seems high and tech race seems a bit too fast for Monarch.

PF

Research seems fast because of all the River spaces being used; that's a lot of commerce to put into research! Corruption - well, we aren't commercial, and we do have 10 cities (I think that's what I counted). Need to think about FP very soon.

Taking on Russia would give us clear control of 1/2 the continent; most of the open space is around us and Russia. We can't effectively run an Empire larger than 2 cores, so I think it's better to let England and France control a reasonable kingdom each, contributing to our Research.

Peglegasus: Seems like good odds to take an unfortified Spearman in the open; the two workers would be useful. If you decide not to, wherever he eventually settles will be vulnerable to us in the future; it might even flip. If you do declare war and attack, I'd suggest getting a couple Catapults built; they're great for reducing the hitpoints of in-coming Swordsmen without risking our own.

Thanks, it has been so long since I played PTW, I forgot all the changes C3C made.

Naturally if we leave France full strength, we will fall behind them in techs. That is not necessarily bad. Is that what you are suggesting for a long range strategy?

PF

Couple of things this am:

1. Glad to hear BigChief has beaten off the nasty bug
2. Rethought need for Hanging Gardens. It might be better to let one of our continent sharers to build it and then just acquire it. There are 4 luxuries on this continent, not just the 3 as initially thought.
3. Since we are switching to self research, we need to build towards having 5 good production cities.

Finally, I suggest we all have 2 goals, particularly as we review the turns.

A. Discuss how we are going to play this game going forward, and
B. Offer suggestions to the person who just played.
-- what was really good about their play [if anything that turn, some turns will be boring]
-- other alternatives to playing the turn that might help that player in the future.

Check in later.

PF
PF - I agree with your two review goals. I would personally welcome any critical feedback that points out mistakes I have made. So anybody - feel free to start with my last effort (1250BC -1000BC).

I believe this game will be won for us on two points :

1) fast research and manipulation of AI research to get to Fission quickly.

2) being large enough to be #2 in a UN vote, and likeable enough through trades and generosity that we gather most of the votes.

Goal 1 needs lots of markets, libraries, universities etc. possibly built with a late middle ages golden age through Wonder build/capture.

Goal 2 means owning resources & luxuries to trade and/or give away as well as being dominant on this continent.

These goals mean two productive cores running to sustain our research, requiring that we occupy the major portion of our continent. That probably means reducing Russia to a small outpost, and trimming English and French border regions that we require if resources & luxuries are accessible. We must be scruplous in keeping agreements, and probably not eliminating anybody.

Your thoughts my fellow generals ?

I agree with nearly all your points, General Peanut. We definitely want Russia around, even if trimmed or greatly reduced, for the Free Tech she gets upon entering each Era. However, I'd prefer not trimming England or France if we can avoid it; maintains better relations and better AI research. Also, I'd rather plan to capture the UN from the AI that builds it, eliminating any guesswork as to who the primary candidate is. As mentioned in the Discussion Thread, use of the diplo dogpile makes it highly likely that we would also win the vote. This simplifies the variant contest down to whomever can push the AI into building the UN fastest.

Definitely plan on a builder strategy after determining our core locations. I'd suggest building Libraries first (once we have Literature), then Marketplaces or Temples, followed up by Universities. Having Techs to sell will compensate for loss of the income we'd get with Marketplaces.

Peanut: I liked the set of trades you did with Poly. I've been used to recent GOTM's where Map trading isn't done until Navigation, so that's been something to unlearn. You also got most of the Gold, and two other Techs. I usually don't worry about getting HorseBackRiding until the last trade to leave the AA; I'd like to get some chariots for future upgrade, if possible. Only other comment is I like to quickly upgrade as many Warriors as I can, then pillage the Iron source. It's really bad luck if the Iron runs out, and it only does that if it's connected.

PF: I don't agree with your comment regarding France and research. We should be able to maintain a very comfortable Tech lead once we get our research institutions built and cities over size 7. (The Terrain is definitely rough, and will delay us, but I'm sure we'll take the Tech lead most of this game.)

Where's the diplo dogpile thread? This is not a concept I am familar with. This seems to be key to your strategy.

PF

Ok finally played my turns. I decided not to attack the English spearman... the settler founded warwick in the tile south of our swordsman. My notes aren't very detailed this go around.

1) 975 BC Hamburg builds settler, starting on worker. Code of laws in 3 turns.

2) 950 BC Workers 2+4 irrigating plains near liepzig. Police 3 moves NE towards new coastal city site. Berlin builds settler, settler moves NE. Police 4 and worker 5 move N in flood plains by Frankfurt.

3) 925 BC Warwick founded by English directly south of our swordsman on the mountain. Swordsman politely vacates the premises. Police 4 attacks horseman... becomes veteran. Swordsman 1 leaves Cologne momentarily to slay a barbarian. Science dropped to 40%... Code of Laws in 1 turn. Upgrade warrior 9 to swordsman.

4) 900 BC Code of Laws traded to England for Philosophy and map. (they're broke). Russia is broke too. We trade for a map. (probably a bad move). We get Horseback riding and 55 gold from France. Pump science back up. Republic in 23 turns. Nuremburg builds worker, begins warrior. Workers 4+2 roading at Lepzig.

5) 875 BC Bah! Horseman steps out of nowhere and kills settler! Had a warrior one tile away. Barbarian activity REALLY picking up now. Hamburg builds worker who begins irrigating near munich. Settler moving WITH ARMED ESCORT west from Heidelburg. I'm still fuming from losing the other settler. Police 3 takes revenge on that horseman. He is now a veteran. Move swordsman from Liepzig to protect workers.

6) 850 BC Barb attacks Hannover, sword defends. Cologne builds worker. Starting barracks there. Liepzig builds sword, begins settler. Russians have construction and won't sell. If I had waited a bit before trading Code of laws I might have been able to get it. Oh well.

7) 825 BC Konigsberg builds worker, now building sword. Worker begins mining hill next door. Hamburg MP leaves his post to smack up a barb threatening workers. Hannover builds warrior and sends sword 8 east to look for barbarians. worker chopping forest near cologne to speed barracks.

8) 800 BC Sword 8 attacks horseman... now elite :) . Bremen founde in mountains SW of Hamburg by a nice alpine lake. Building a worker. Berlin builds settler... heading for our coastal site again.

9) 775 BC Hamburg builds worker, now building settler. Frankfurt builds sword, now settler.

10) 750 BC Warrior 4 fortifies in mountains to north next to barb camp. One of them is bound to attack on next turn and I'm hoping def bonus will save him.

The first screen I've marked where I was moving the settler to. 2 workers are already up there ready to work the flood plains and such. In the second there is a swordsman wounded in the upper right. I was going to send him out to the barb camp near there. The worker near Heidelberg and Berlin will need to be protected from that horseman, or moved. In the third shot you can see the placement of Warwick, our 4 swordsmen readying for a possible assault, Smolensk size 3 now and Moscow size 7. I wouldn't attack warwick or sevastapol because they would get auto razed. Not good.

Building several workers right now and a couple swordsmen. Our treasury is about 300... didn't know if you guys wanted to use that to upgrade warriors or hold onto it for a bit. Also, should we disconnect our iron for a bit? I thought about doing it but kept it connected because of the pesky barbs. I wanted to build a couple swords before disconnecting.

all right here's the save
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_BC0750_01.SAV

Any suggestions on things to try to accomplish or not do during next 10 turns?

PF

Any suggestions on things to try to accomplish or not do during next 10 turns?

PF

Well at first I was really itching to go to war on someone. But after playing the last 10 turns I'm not so sure. I think we should position our swordsmen so they are ready for defensive duty or a strike if soemone else declares on us. The other thing I've been thinking about is all these dang barbarians. I think there are a lot of camps out there and when civ's start going into the MA's there are going to be some crazy uprisisngs. I say expand expand expand and guard those settlers, man. Normally I'm into early wars but it just doesn't feel right in this scenario right now. We hit Republic in 14 turns. I think we should switch as soon as we get it, aim for a golden age soon after, and then worry about whether or not to take on some of our rivals after we have some good infrastructure established.

Edit: Been thinking about the switch to republic and I'm wondering if we're not ready. Shouldn't we have marketplaces built for citizen happiness before we make the switch? And I usually find myself hurting if I switch with lots of small towns... seems to work better for me if my cities are at least size six on average.

Good, you got the save. I'll play tonight. With raving Barbs it's like fighting a two front war. I would expect to see about 40 barb horses to attack at many fronts in the very near future.

PF

Peglegasus: bad luck with the Settler attack. I try to post Warriors out in advance of where I want to build cities, on hills and mountains, to keep an eye on the Barbs. Escorts are a good idea, especially when the barb activity picks up. Is there two defenders in Hamburg? The wounded warrior may be easy pickings for the Barb horseman on the mountaintop. Temporary shuffling may be needed to address this threat, but I can't see what's happening further NW.

I would recommend upgrading several Swordsmen, then disconnecting the Iron; any Swordsmen that are started will still be able to finish, and we get a faster buildup by building Warriors and Upgrading anyway. We don't have to convert to Republic immediately upon learning it (we still might; a good rule-of-thumb is #of citizens > 1.5 to 2x #of units), but we will be able to trade it. I expect that someone will learn Currency soon, and trade for Construction causing the massive Barb uprising to occur. PTW Barbs don't concentrate like Vanilla Civ; still, you can expect 4-6 horsemen to be constantly harassing you until they're put down. (Another reason to do the upgrade now and reduce the treasury.) Once we have Republic, we should be able to trade England and France for Construction and Currency (assuming they both have those Techs; might get both from one with one trade), then trade Republic and our free Middle Ages Tech to Russia for their free Tech (if we don't match their Tech; they might also trade it straight up for our freebie.) And get all their Gold, too. :)

PF - diplo dogpile was discussed in one of the support threads. Basically, we keep tabs on who's building UN. Turn before they build it, we declare war and get everyone allied against that civ. Of course our army is ready, and captures the UN city shortly after it's finished; since they're at war with everyone, they have no opportunity to call a vote. We call it at first chance, and with everyone allied with us we will proably win (because we've been big and loveable the rest of the game.) Ghenghis Khan wanted to outlaw it for the variant; it was decided not to, since some other teams wanted to do the Variant with an Always at War option. I think allowing it makes pursuit of the variant much cleaner: fastest research to Fission, then convince a civ to build it.

Another thought - if Russia is to be a potential near-term "victim" of German aggression, we should locate and make plans to neutralize any Iron or Horses they have access to. I haven't loaded the Save yet, so I'm not sure what Russia has in this area.

Another thought - if Russia is to be a potential near-term "victim" of German aggression, we should locate and make plans to neutralize any Iron or Horses they have access to. I haven't loaded the Save yet, so I'm not sure what Russia has in this area.

actually this is one of the reasons russia is such a tempting target right now... they don't have iron anywhere in their territory, or even close by. well, something i didn't think about is that maybe they have a city built on some. didn't check that. they have two sources of horses close but won't be available until their cities expand or until they build colonies, which i doubt they will do. they have done very little roading between their cities. tempting indeed.

Ok, so Diplo Dogpile is just alliances vs UN. Nothing big. I was going for a long range strategy of:
a. owning entire continent.
b. teaming with other 3 civs vs UN civ.
I figured odds would be better with 3 unknown votes vs 6 unknown votes.

I can play either way. Hate to saw it but this is kind of interesting to see different approaches.

Here's my play:

_PreTurn__ 750
Heidleburg_ move warrior to mt to either defend worker mining by Berlin
or attack barbarian about to attack

Gambled and attacked Barb camp. Defeated barb warrior and warrior
is regular but lost a hit point

Moved warrior by Munich one to west to add early warning
Moved swords by Sevastopol back towards Nuremberg. Horses
are a bit away and we might as well use barbs to upgrade them first.
Changed Heidelburg build from sword to spear, to increase happiness.
Left Munich without warrior and moved warrior to Hamburg for protection
Since Munich has no defense, changed build queue to spear in one

Nuremburg is in wrong location, but don't want to move it. It is 3 from capital
instead of 4, 4.5
_AI T[urn]__
Gamble lost, Barb horse killed warrior. But we were outnumbered 3 to 1 anyway.

_Turn1 _ 730 bc
Got Spear in Heidelburg, and settler
Moved spear towards worker and moved warrior on mt to worker tile.
More defensive moves. Moved 1 settler in position for plant next turn
Moved other towards Munich. Barb horse on iron mt by Frankfurt
No other changes
Oh, Russia has construction. Bought worker from Fr for 100g. England has nothing
_AI T__
Barb horse killed warrior and worker

_Turn2 _ 710 bc
Planted Stuttgart at ring 2, 7.5 out War7 is now vet thanks to Barb Horsie
England has worker but since they are last don't want to spend 100 for it now
Killed Barb horse that killed warrior and worker pair. Net loss 1 worker.
_AI T__
Boring

_Turn3 _ 690 bc
All 3 civs had construction and no one wants to trade.
Moved settler out past Frankfurt, trying to make room so can get horses.
_AI T__
horse on mts by munich

_Turn4 _ 670 bc
Moved warrior to iron Mt and see barb camp 1 tile away
Opps missed changing Heilelburg to worker and lost 2 shields
Bumped research to 100% will cost 27 gold, but that's less for barbs
_AI T__
Nothing visible

_Turn5 _ 650 bc
Got 2 workers.
Lost warrior on iron. Moved towards lake and see horse, oh oh.
_AI T__
War on forest defends against BHorse. Lost one HP.

_Turn6 _ 630 bc
Moved warrior by iron, moving swords towards barbs
_AI T__
BHorse by Hannover

_Turn7 _ 610 bc
Moved sword by Hannover. Settler is by lake now, warrior by Bcamp.
_AI T__
Yikes, Bhorse by cologne. Fr warrior by 11

_Turn8 _590 bc
Killed BH by 08Hannover
Oh, renamed cities so I could find them easier on F1 screen. If you don't like, you can rename back.
Name is :
a_rank number city and then
b_ring location and then
c_egular name.
Stopper worker working on road to hide in 06. Planted 13Bonn by lake.
_AI T__
Opps lost worker, didn't think BH could get that far.

_Turn9 _ 570 bc
Joan has Monarchy. Needless to say she wants to horde it.
Moved another warrior to Berlin. Moved swords by Bcamp. Research back to 10. English archer is also moving to Bcamp.
_AI T__
War defended and killed BH

_Turn10 _ 550 bc
25 gold for Bcamp. Hopefully there are no BH on wheat or worker by 13Bonn is dead. Settler is 2..3 turns from grabbing horse. Another settler is moving towards coast and river tiles, Warrior is fortified in location. Warrior killed BH by 08

Bad news, lost 4 score points in relation to Offa team. Good news we are
still ahead by 1. I was too tired to do more.

I forgot who's next, but have fun. I'll post save first and then images.

PF

Here's the link.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_BC0550_01.sav

Here's west view.

Here's east view.

BigChief: it's yours, off now.

PF

I got it. It will be sometime tomorrow before I can play, so if anyone wants to make suggestions, please do so.

I think we are starting to be hurt by size of our cities. Those outside ring1 should continue with settler/military productions. But I think we would gain to have 1/3 to 1/2 of ring1 cities growing above size 6. They could still spit out a settler from time to time, when say size 10, but primary purpose would be to build production base and make science easier.

In terms of Russia, 4 swords won't do it. We would want at least 10 units and a settler. So after take out horse city, we can plant a new city there and permanently control horses. Naturally this will only temporary, as they have another supply of horses to SE we can't touch easily.

The wheat and cattle look tempting in the NW, but I only see 1 bonus grass so they would not be 4 turn settler farms, but would make a good 6 turn and we could change Berlin to more normal production. Out West of the horse it looks like there may be another river which would help a lot.

I would expect to see continual Barbs out of the NW until we have a presense over the land.

Other good spots are NNW of Cologne and on coast E of #09 on the hill.

Others may have additional ideas. Good luck tomorrow.

PF

We should identify where we want the Forbidden Palace. Cities much further than ring2 will be pretty corrupt; need to establish where 2nd core will be and start planning to build it. Do we want to build a FP close to Berlin, and Jump the Palace elsewhere? Or build close FP and use a GL to rebuild Palace? Maybe build FP in-between, say distance 8 or 9? I haven't gotten the download yet, so I don't have a good feeling as to where Palace and FP should end up at.

bigchief: some advice - you're about to learn Republic; I think we should hold it until Currency is available. Then it will give us enough trading power to get Construction and Currency, maybe Monarchy if done in the right order, and send us to the MidAges. I'd recommend researching Literature next; we're going to want to start building things, libraries and marketplaces. Agree with PF - need to start bulking up our inner cities. And watch those barbs - they seem to be taking their toll, and we haven't gotten the big uprisings yet!

Civ_steve,

Didn't the images help? The fortified worker above the three spear button is in Berlin.
Just piece the two together for world view.

Agree that Lit should be the next tech research.

Even though hold on to Republic, there's no reason we couldn't start govt change.

If you'all want some advice about Palace jumping, I'll drop out. No experience there and I will leave it to someone with experience. I was thinking one of two areas would be good for FP.

Option A
~~~~~~~~
Overlapping rings. Build in 13Bonn. Then ring1 from the FP would sync with 10r2Frankfurt and ring2 from the Palace.

Option B
~~~~~~~~
Adjacent rings. Build PF about 4 tiles roughly W of 13Bonn. Then ring2 from FP would meet with ring2 from Palace at 10r2Frankfurt.

You all may have option 3.

I was thining West for location of PF as this is where the best unencumbered tiles are and we want the benefit now and not after we have cleared hundreds of jungle tiles. And since we are not currently talking about owning the entire continent, this should give us a good dumbell Palace pair.

Again, open to alternatives.

PF

bigchief: some advice - you're about to learn Republic; I think we should hold it until Currency is available. Then it will give us enough trading power to get Construction and Currency, maybe Monarchy if done in the right order, and send us to the MidAges. I'd recommend researching Literature next; we're going to want to start building things, libraries and marketplaces. Agree with PF - need to start bulking up our inner cities. And watch those barbs - they seem to be taking their toll, and we haven't gotten the big uprisings yet!

I was already playing when you posted this, but it is pretty much the way I played it.

Turn 0 - Checked everything out. It all looks good.

Turn 1 - Nothing Exciting. Moved the 2 settlers and repositioned some troops. Changed some productions from archers to swords.

Turn 2 - Joan wants to trade WMs. No thanks. Hamburg: barracks -> sword, England completes the Oracle. Cologne: worker -> worker, Frankfurt: settler -> settler. Science down to 80%. Republic in 1.

Turn 3 - We learned Republic. Our scientists tell me that if they have libraries, they will be able to research faster, so I set research to Literature in 6 at 90%. Do we want to encourage a revolution. No we are happy with Despotism (we're actually not too happy with it, but we aren't built up well enough to switch now). France is building the Hanging Gardens. Our Settler pair walks up on 2 barb horsemen. Nobody has currency so we hold on to Republic.

Turn 4 - Correction: It was 3 barb horses, and they all attacked our settler pair and were quickly dispatched by our veteran warrior, who was rewarded with a promotion to elite status for his bravery. Berlin: sword -> temple, Settlers move into position and workers continue their hard work.

Turn 5 - Nuremberg: barracks -> spear, English are building the Colossus. Heidelburg: barracks -> settler, Salzburg founded. Dortmund Founded. Both cities were founded on the coast. Dortmund's postion breaks up the possibility of a wheat/cow combo, but by the time we could get any kind of factory going there, we will have settled most of the area to the North and Northwest.

Turn 6 - Settler NW of Bonn is killed by barb horse that appears out of nowhere, as he is ready to hook up with an escort, and even though we have troops all around the area. Leipzig: sword -> settler, Hannover: sword -> worker, France complets the Pyramids. England is building the Great Wall. 2 of our swords kill the barb horsemen that came out and killed our settler. Still nobody we know has currency.

Turn 7 - Hamburg: sword -> settler. Russia is building the Great Wall. China has completed the Great Library. Our vet warrior NW of Bonn attacks a barb village and is killed by barb warrior. Joan and Catherine both have literature, and nobody has currency. Guess I should have researched currency instead of Lit. Science down to 50%. Literature in 1.

Turn 8 - We learn Literature. Konigsberg: archer -> sword. Bremen: worker -> library, Bonn: worker -> library, Sword destroys barb camp near Dortmund. Set research to currency in 9 at 90%.

Turn 9 - France is building the Great Wall. Sword north of Bonn kills barb horse, Changed production in Berlin from Temple to Library. Catherine now has Republic, and nobody has currency. I trade Joan Republic for construction, 80 Gold, WM & TM ( She will not give up Monarchy). Trade Catherine WM for WM, TM & 10 Gold. Trade Liz WM for WM, TM and 26 Gold.

Turn 10 - Berlin: library -> spear, Nuremberg: spear -> library. Cologne: worker -> worker.

Notes: My turn log is lacking a little because I played at work. I have moved several troops to Nuremberg, and more are headed that way, if we want to go after Russia Soon. The settler that was killed was going for the horses, so we still don't have them yet.

The Save:

Here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_BC0350_01.sav)

Screenshot:

Civ_Steve,

Don't know if you need to wait for marketplaces to go Republic. Our cities are so small we may be able to switch earlier.

Don't think you need advice, but wonder if that pink lady near Bonn is a settler pair going for our only source of horses?

PF

That would be kind of unfriendly!

Sorry bigchief, I'd thought at least ONE of these commercial civs would like Currency. OK, we'll get it soon enough and off to the MiddleAges. I'll load the save tonight and post any questions I have tomorrow; probably play shortly after that.

Hey guys... I will be on holiday starting tomorrow! Will be unable to play until next wednesday evening. I will be near a computer though so will check in periodically. Have fun and good luck!

Sorry I haven't been in touch for a few days - v.busy here on Planet Peanut. Progress looks great and the discussion has been very interesting.

I think our strategy is sound and I like the idea from PF for an alliance against the UN holder. I think however that we need to be large and friends with everyone when the UN is imminent in case someone unexpected gets it. Then if there is an immediate vote we will be looking good. It does work that way, doesn't it (ie. build then likely immediate vote) ?

Been looking in utilities. There are two I plan to start using as they have a good reputation. They are supposed to work with XP, so plan to install this week.

Here is key data:

Floating Combat Calculator
URL is http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=82511

Notes
To install it you must replace the civunits.csv file that is in the game folder. The default installation is in C:\Programs\Civ Assistants. Rename the existing civnunits.csv file to something else, such as civunits_old.csv, and copy the unzipped revised file into the Civ Assistants folder. When you start the Combat Calculator all of the new units will be present.


Ring City Placement and Domination Limit Calculator
URL: http://www.sucs.org/~weazel/dan/


PF

I meant to get this posted earlier, but work got a bit busy and I had to wait. Just a few comments and questions before I do the next set of turns.

Here's our current military:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cvst_sg2_bc350F3Crop.JPG

We have 12 Swordsmen, and 14 Swordsmen wannabe's, along with an archer and 3 spearmen. I think that's large enough for now, so I plan to limit builds to Settlers, Workers, and city improvements (libraries and marketplaces) in general. Perhaps a Swordsman here or there. Our Military will cost us 48 gpt once in Republic; I think a conversion will gain us 35-40 increased commerce per turn so we will run a slight deficit for a short while. I plan to finish the Currency research (or Trade for it if someone else learns it first) then start the Revolution.

The pink unit to the NW is a solitary Warrior, so no French Settler is racing to take the Horses from us (Whew!!) (although there could be one just out of sight; I'll adjust to try and protect it). And I'll try to take care of nearby camps prior to the massive barb uprisings about to happen.

Here's a zoomed out screen shot of the Russian-German-Eastern Expanses of the board:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cvst_sg2_bc350MainZRes.JPG

The circles are roughly the area of most useful territory around a Palace or FP. The Black X is where Moscow is, and it seems to my eyes to be pretty good territory. There's a lot of Floodplains there, which counteracts some of the desert effect. And a fairly high concentration of rivers for this map, which means extra commerce for research and gold. There's a decent amount of hills (and mountains) that make this a good producing area also. I'm somewhat convinced that taking this area over and Jumping the Palace (or using GL for Palace or FP) is the near term way to go. I'd leave the Russians with some space to the NE for future free Techs.

The Blue circle is around another area with high concentration of river spaces (lots of commerce), but also lots of Jungle. Our 18 Workers could clear, road and mine the Jungle in the circle in about 110 turns; with future Worker additions (and of course there's other work to do), I'm thinking closer to 90 or so; roughly 850AD this area could be fully productive. One Blue X, right next to the circle, is Berlin our current capital; the other 2 are the German cities closest to the center of this circle; if chosen, I'd start building the FP at the easternmost of the two Blue X's (I think that's Hannover, but I've forgotten; it's on the Incense Hill)

Here's a zoomed out snapshot of the area to the NW:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cvst_sg2_bc350Main2ZRes.JPG

I've indicated two more potential FP sites, the Blue X is on an existing city, and the Red X is a potential site out near Bonn. (I didn't include Bonn because IMO it includes too much desert.) Between the two I think the Blue X is better (and my assumption is we're taking over Russia's lands); city already exists so FP can start ASAP; emcompasses more of the Original center; and I think it includes more useful River space (cities at the NW edge of the Blue circle can use most of the River spaces to the NW.)

Another FP option is to build it just N of Berlin (I'd use the city already there in ring1) and maintain functionality through most of our existing core, to add to the Russian core soon to be obtained.

A Fourth Option would be to build FP at Blue X in 2nd zoomed image; Palace Jump or GL build the Palace out East in Jungle zone, and leave Russia alone.

To recap:

Option1: Build FP in Jungle Zone to East, Take Russia, Move Palace to Moscow

Option2: Build FP to NW at Blue X (or Red X, please indicate); Take Russia, Move Palace to Moscow

Option3: Build FP near core to NW; Take Russia, Move Palace to Moscow

Option4: Build FP to NW at Blue X (or Red X, please indicate); Move Palace to Jungle Zone to the East; do not attack Russia

I'm leaning towards option 1; let me know your choices. Probably play tonight, or tomorrow early; either way I'd like to get the FP started.

PARIS!,,

just kidding. unless this was C3. I like Moscow best because it comes earlier in the game and we need a sci boast since we are behind now. For modern world it might be worth it to go for the jungle location.

Another question, which is the best strategy for FP:
a-- once start building FP, don't plant any more cities so don't increase corruption, or
b-- continue planting cities after FP is built and consider any corruption increase just the cost of empire?

PF

FYI,
I don't like this version of combat calculator. GUI is ugly, and locked on map. Only advantage of it is you don't lose your view of the game while using it unlike toggling to other tools.

PF

PF - What has Joan ever done to you? :)

I believe in doing (b) until I've planted enough cities to control my territory. I prefer something between OCP and ICS; most cities should get to at least size 12, some to 15-20 or so.

I'm actually leaning more towards Option 3, thinking about it. A FP location just to the North of Berlin will maintain our existing core; shifting Palace to Moscow will have little overlap with this FP. It wouldn't require as long to set up; a little less long term commerce but good short term development.

(BTW, Joan has a lot of Tundra in her zone; somewhat limiting)

Other utility is not straightfoward, running into XP problems. Once I figure it out I'll let you all know how to use it.

PF

I think Dianthus has a RCP utility that shows you all the locations at a given distance from the city.

I use Mapstat for Domination Limit determination; it's on the downloads site for CFC.

Peglegasus - Have a great time! We'll hold off the English, French and Russians while you're gone.

Dianthus just updated the utility yesterday. It is great for IDing the rings and happy cities. Much better than F1 screen.

The only problems I ran into were a) some utilities wouldn't work, and b) SettleLoc I have not got to work yet. SettleLoc needs a crp file created first and I have yet to figure out that process. What would not work with XP is it sounds like you need to enter command line string in order to create crp files from SAVes. Unlike W98, XPh does not create 8.3 aliases for long folder names so can't cd into correct folder to run the command.

I downloaded the utilities last night and they were updated later in the evening. I'll uninstall and reinstall in a 8 char folder and I should not have problems.

BTW, MapStat is one of the utilities included in the package. I have not used utilities before, so this is great to have.

Coffee time.....

PF

Well, I'm off to play the turns. I'll settle on one of the FP locations, and set up the Moscow adventure!

PF - What has Joan ever done to you? :)

I believe in doing (b) until I've planted enough cities to control my territory. I prefer something between OCP and ICS; most cities should get to at least size 12, some to 15-20 or so.

I'm actually leaning more towards Option 3, thinking about it. A FP location just to the North of Berlin will maintain our existing core; shifting Palace to Moscow will have little overlap with this FP. It wouldn't require as long to set up; a little less long term commerce but good short term development.

(BTW, Joan has a lot of Tundra in her zone; somewhat limiting)

Unlike Hitler, I don't really want Paris, I just don't trust Joan. She has switched from polite to war declaration too many times. And this is without culture linked on. I try to build a good scientific civ as Germany and Joan is always within a few techs, and usually 2..4 ahead. Usually our game scores are right next to each other. The only successful way I have found to deal with Joan, is to knock out 3..4 cities before end of Middle Ages.

Option 2 or 3 sound about even. Option 2, red X , gives faster initial OCN increase but option 3 gives a stronger end game.

I don't know if palace move helps. I have never done that, especially since C3C reduced the value of the FP. I'm open to hearing and learning the effect of a Palace move.

Have fun.....


PF

Okay, done 10 turns and uploaded 150 BC save to SGOTM database.

Here's my turn log:

Turn 0, 350 BC
Adjust productions, more Settlers and Workers, 1 Swordsman at Leipzig
Move out some units to make things more visible; no barb pop-ups within visibility

Turn 1, 330 BC
Hey, there's a number of auto moves going on! (Please make note of that in the future!)
Hannover finishes Worker, starts another (lots of stuff to clear here)
Pleasantries exchanged with French Warrior near Horses

Turn 2, 310 BC
Upgrade 2 Vet Warriors to Swordsmen; 1 Warrior, 1 Vet Sword built
2 Workers moved onto Horses, protected by Swords
English Archer clears Barb Camp in NW
Move out Units to S to secure future invasion route

Turn 3, 290 BC
3 Settlers (Berlin, Hamburg, Heidelberg) Completed, 1 Worker
2 Settlers heading South; 1 towards Horses
Upgrade another Vet Warrior to Swordsman

Turn 4, 270 BC
1 Settler (Frankfurt), off to NW Lake
Invasion is forming to the South
Workers improving Cologne for future FP, start Irrigating Mined BG to bring Irrigation up to it;
Going to be Republic soon, the Irrigated BG will give Leipzig +5 food
2 turns to Currency

Turn 5, 250 BC
Catherine has spent her money on Something; gone from 60+ Gold to 0 in 2 turns
Upgrade another Vet Warrior to Swordsman
Tidal Wave of Swordsmen forming to West of Warwick; 2 Settlers to establish chain of cities
Reduce Science to 70%; Currency in 1

IBT, we enter a New Era!!
Scores: Germany 349; Russia 326; France 317; England 295
England and France are the Cultural Powerhouses; Russia slightly lags us (another reason to attack them first, fewer CFs)
We are the leader in Strength

No one else has much to offer for Currency; trade Republic to England (only one who doesn't have it) for 56 Gold and WM
Wish to see where the Seljuk tribes near Bonn are, before popping others into MidAges
Seljuks are 5SW/2NW of Bonn
(BTW, she goes from Polite to Annoyed; already in Anarchy!; France is a Monarchy and Russia a Republic)

Turn 6, 230 BC
1 Swordsman and 1 Settler (Stuttgart) completed
Establish Embassy with France (can't do that during Anarchy) 16 turns to Great Wall

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cvst_sg2_bc230ParisRes.JPG

Start Research on Theology (20 turns at 90%)
PopRush 2 Galleys (Dortmund and Salzburg)
Start the Revolution (5 turns); No one's larger than size5, so all are happy; Set up 1 Scientist

Turn 7, 210 BC
Brandenburg founded, and Horses are now available
Galleys off exploring

Turn 8, 190 BC
Massive uprising near Bonn; France is Medieval; England has Monarchy, but not Currency
Trade Currency to Russia for 3 Gold, and WM; She gets Engineering but doesn't wish to Trade for Mono
Debating trade of Mono for Monarchy with France, but don't think reduced Mono + reduced Monarchy
will gain Engineering from Russia; have to get it from Peace negotiations!
Hmm, 2 cities founded, Berlin (near Warwick to South) and Leipzig (NW Lake)
This renaming thing just got confusing!
01Berlin, size 6 so form a Taxman

Turn 9, 170 BC
Elizabeth has joined the crowd; Russia has Monarchy now (Lizzie wouldn't trade it with us)
Catherine will Trade Engineering for Mono and all our 106 Gold (out of 126); we take it
(BTW 8 high stack of Barb horses is heading North towards Salzburg)
Declare War on Russia!!
Trade Mono to England for Monarchy, WM, 6 Gold and 1 gpt
France give us Alliance vs Russia and WM for Mono
Gift Engineering to France and England (Russia has little Trade leverage now; and they're Polite)
Galley North survives a Barb attack; sees Huts on island across way
Maneuvering vs Barbs (seen and unseen) near Bonn
Hamburg founded on North Coast
4 Swords and 1 Archer move adj to Minsk

Turn 10, 150 BC
Oh man, the Barbs are all over; 24 in Mountains near Bonn, and 24 South of Salzburg
Probably going to let some cities get pounded (only 31 Gold in Treasury currently)
Protect Workers is probably highest priority; I've only committed a few troops to the front lines
Galley to East loses to Barb
Swordman enters North Galley for Transport to Huts
Minsk is taken! (2 Spears done in, 1 Vet Warrior Lost)
Settler/Swordsman stack advances to Hill near Moscow
Anarchy over 1 turn

End of Turn Log

Status: we are Medieval, doing Minimum Research towards Theology during our Anarchy period. We've started the Revolution; in 1 Turn it will be over, and we can then become a Republic. I expect the Tax rate will have to go up for a while (our unit costs will be somewhat high), but I would strongly suggest we maintain the highest sustainable research level.

We are at War with Russia, and France is allied with us. We've taken one city (Minsk); a Settler is ready to found a city near Moscow, giving us 1 turn advance on her capital. My plan was to found the city where the Settler is (on a hill, see below), wait one turn until the 4 Swordsmen just North can linkup, then move en masse towards Moscow the following turn. Hopefully 9 Swordsmen will be able to Capture Moscow at this phase of the game. England and France are caught up in Techs (due to the generous nature of the German people), and England is paying us 1 gpt, so I don't think Russia will be able to convince them to turn on us.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cvst_sg2_bc150WarRes.JPG

48 Barbs are heading towards our cities. No defense is possible, so we will lose any Treasury to be lost; challenge is to limit lose of Workers and structures. (see pictures below). I've loaded a Swordsman on a Galley to pop the hut that's just visible in the 2nd Picture, upper right corner

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cvst_sg2_bc150Barb1Res.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cvst_sg2_bc150Barb2Res.JPG

I've started the FP under Option3, in Cologne, 3 moves North of Berlin; at Size6, in Republic, it should produce 7-8 useable shields; don't clear any forest, just road and mine Plains, and I'd bulk it up to size6 as fast as possible (joining a Settler or Worker along the way). We want the FP up and running as soon as possible.

Peanut, I think you're up!

Hey, there's a number of auto moves going on! (Please make note of that in the future!)

I didn't have anything on auto. If you are talking about the 3 or so troops that hadn't made it to Nuremberg yet, for the pre war set up, that's my fault. I did mention that there were troops headed there in the notes at the end of my turn log. If something was automated, something went wrong. Anyway, Sorry, I'll try to remember not to send anyone to a place they can't get to by the time my turns are up.

Good playing. It appears that barbs are going to be much tougher than the Russians. I think we should build some horsemen. They can get to trouble spots much quicker.

I guess we qualify for the spoiler thread now. It will be interesting to see what the others have been up to.

Turn 1, 330 BC
Hey, there's a number of auto moves going on! (Please make note of that in the future!)


Interesting. I hate automoves. Occasionally I miss mouse and click on the auto button when I meant another, but even with 200 workers that is never more than 1 or 2 workers. And I never automove other units. Heck I haven't used rally points yet.

I must have missed any automoves that where happening. Will try to catch any in future.

PF

bigchief - yes, there were about 3 or 4 military units that suddenly started moving on their own, which kind of startled me. I did corral them up next turn and verified their orders before I sent them along. German precision, you know!

If these barbs are happy to throw themselves at a couple of our border towns, destroying production and maybe a Barracks, I'd be happy with that. In fact, it might make sense to gather some taxes just in case getting some treasury plays into the thought process of the Barbs. If the barbs are the type that wants to run around pillaging improved tiles until captured and killed, we're in for a world of hurt. There's only 1 Swordsman and 2 Warriors in the East, and a few more units than that in the West (vs 24 Barbs each!). Peanut - in retrospect, you might want to recall the Swordsman I'd put in the Galley; we might need his sword to defend our fields! Also, there are 2 Swordsmen fortified halfway between Bonn and our Horses. They could be moved into Bonn and Fortified, moved into Bonn, and past it into the mountains to occupy defensive terrain, or moved to back up Bonn and pick off whatever Barbs penetrate past Bonn (hopefully only a few if this is chosen). I'd placed them here to defend both cities, but the Barbs are definitely coming through the mountains; these swords haven't moved this turn.

Civ_steve,

1. City naming
Agree got too carried away with adding ring number to city name. Anyone know of any utilities that will count the number of cities you have in a civ without having to number them when you name them?

2. Cool trade in 170BC
Maybe I have to try trading WM+? to France for Alliance. Interesting idea.

3. Aggressive, interesting
Both start war and do it in an anarchy period. Not too shabby. So we take a few Barb hits

Nice work. Can't think of any suggestions for play improvement this time, sorry.

Peanut/Keith

Don't forget to bring along a settler sometime and get that Russian Fur. I think Civ_Steve's play will help us increase our score well.

PF

Thanks! It was a fun and interesting set of turns to Play, even if nearly half were during Anarchy.

Moscow was building the Great Wall, so I didn't really want to delay the assault, just in case they finished it.

Just a reminder: we are allied with France against Russia. We need to honor that alliance, so we have to stay at war for 20 turns, not renew and then get a peace deal. I suspect we'll be done before the 20 turns, so that might be an issue. Having a 20 turn alliance is one way to make real good friends; I've found France to be very faithful in my games. (Now if France decides to back out early, obviously that gives us a green light, if needed.)

Who is next. Peanut or myself? Normally I follow civ_steve, but it looks like Peanut was passed over.

Oops, you're right Keith. You should be up now, and Peanut after you! (Sorry for the confusion!) :blush:

Might as well take your time Keith. Peglegasus won't be back to play until after June 2nd.

It's you and Peanut and then wait for Peglegasus.

PF

Here's the link to the 150 BC Save File. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_BC0150_01.sav) (For all who want it)

Lots of Barbarians; I recommend pumping up the Tax rate so there's some Treasury to draw them into the cities; we have a lot of cities and almost no Treasury so at 1 Gold per Barb, that's a good price to pay. I'd defend in good terrain (mountains, for instance), but in general draw the forces back to pick off any Barbs that try to penetrate past the outer cities. Try to conserve our forces until the Barb count is down to nearly even, then engage to finish them off.

Units: I wouldn't build a whole lot more units; maybe right now, rush a Swordsman if a city's about to build something. Our Military will be a major drain once we become Republic, so we really can't add that many military units. I'd stay primarily with Settlers, some workers in the far off cities, and start building infrastructure (Libraries/Marketplaces and such) in the interior cities. Lux rate should not EVER be higher than 10%; if that is required, convert a citizen to an entertainer in those cities and pop out a Worker, or Settler.

Russia: Press On. Build town on Hill this turn and consolidate the forces; move adjacent to Moscow on Turn2, attack on Turn3 (9 Swords total). Typical defense would be 4-5 Spearmen; we should take Moscow with no more than 2-3 losses. After that, if needed rest to heal. Then on to the next city, to the SW (we don't want the French taking our Russian cities).

If by chance we get a GL, might be good to form the FP in Moscow; this might be very fast, give us two cores, and Berlin is not that bad a place for the Palace right now.

Good Luck, Keith!!

Me and the family are off for an over-nighter. Be back Sunday night.

BTW: If we are up to posting an entry in the Spoiler1 thread, I would nominate Peanut for that duty; that way everyone can enjoy Peanut's colorful style of posting! :)

BTW: If we are up to posting an entry in the Spoiler1 thread, I would nominate Peanut for that duty

Yes, I strongly support this point of view :D

Pre-move: 150 BC
I have never though to purposely drawing barbs into cities. Great idea.

Turn 1: 130 BC
Lots happened. Swordsman near Bonn killed four barbs but was killed by the fifth. Warrior near Hannover likewise died bravely. The French complete the Hanging Gardens. We are now Republic. Swordsman unloaded on Island. Continuing to move towards Moscow. Workers and units move back from barbarian hordes.

Turn 2: 110 BC Barb horsemen kill themselves of 1 Gold each. Life is cheap. Swordsmen near Brandenburg move to eliminate Barb camp. The huts on the island only gave us maps. Killer stack continues move on Moscow.

Turn 3: 90 BC I learned that when you have over 50 gold you lose 2 gold per barb. I will not make that mistake again. We also lost a Library and some population. Berlin created a settler who heads west and start another. Frankfort because of population lost switches to spearman. Killer stack next to Moscow now.

Turn 4: 70 BC More horsemen kill themselves for 1 gold. Hamburg creates a settler who heads west and starts another. Munich creates a settler who heads for the island and starts another. Russia completes Great Wall in Moscow (Perfect timing!). Two Russian spearmen die defending. They fought bravely taking our swordsmen down to 1 hp. Captured one Russian worker as well, who moves to create a road to New Berlin. I would like to see the FP in Moscow, but I will leave that to the team and the next player.

Turn 5: 50 BC Warrior dies trying to take a barb camp. Killer stack working on crowd control in Moscow. Settler gets on boat and heads towards island.

Turn 6: 30 BC The last stack of barbs kill themselves for gold and the population of Konigsberg. We also lost our progress on the library. Liepzig has created another swordsman, will create a worker to get the population down. Stuttgart has make a worker, will now create a settler. On the Island new huts are found. Will investigate next turn. A Russian archer is advancing towards new Berlin. We have plenty of reserves to handle this. Left two swordsmen in Moscow and moving towards Kiev.

Turn 7 10 BC Berlin has created another settler and starts another. Leipzig a work and starts swordsmen. Swordsmen clear barb camp S of Bonn. Huts on island have barbs. Settler safely makes it to shore. Elite Warrior kills archer near New Berlin (No Great Leader) Kiev is ready to fall next turn.

Turn 8: 10 AD Swordsmen on island successfully defends against barb. Warrior near Bonn does the same. Looks like Warwick is seeing barb action from the east. In the battle of Kiev one of our valiant Swordsmen dies, but not in vain. The next two swordsmen take out a spearmen each and the elite swordsmen kills the wonder spearmen and creates the Great Leader Barbarossa. For his efforts he is renamed “Das Peanut.” We also bagged two workers. This has been a very profitable war! Cologne switches to a library and Moscow rushes the FP! New Konigsberg founded on island claiming Iron and bonus game! Traded world maps for maps and gold. Barb situation looks manageable now.

Turn 9: 30 AD Moscow completed FP and Hamberg another settler. Moscow starts library and Hamberg another settler.

Turn 10: 50 AD Berlin creates settler and start swordsman. Frankford complete spearman and starts library. Barb takes 3 gold in New Koningsberg. Newly created spearmen will go north for settler escort duty. New killer stack is in position to attack either city to the SE of Moscow. The French are starting to move in but it is only two horsemen. They will not take any cities with a force like that. I hand it over to the next player. We are sitting pretty.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_AD0050_01.SAV

I will not post picture as it is hard to show everything now. Just down load the save and look at it.

My Fellow Generals - Sadly I must pass this round. Much as I am keen to wade in and give the Russians a good thrashing, I don't think that I can do it justice. After over 20 years working I have gone back to full time study, and this week is going to be BUSY. Curses.

So, seeing as Peglegasus is bereft of his civ access until 2 June, I guess we are in your capable hands Planetfall, if you can pick up quickly. Do us proud - I am sure that you will be able to artfully nudge Joan away from any easy pickings.

I should be able to pick up my turn next round, the gods of academia willing. However I will see if I can craft a literary masterpiece (or what passes for one from the Peanut keyboard) for the spoiler thread.

good show! that was a great round. and what timing with the great leader.

having a great vacation, although i wish i could play a little civ. probably good for me to take a break from it though. the first couple nights i was dreaming about ring city placement and escorting settlers through barbarian infested wilderness.

looking good all.

civ_steve, checking in. That's a good set of turns, Keith! The Russians are on the ropes, going down for the count, and we've got our 2nd core started. We are ahead of the Russians on culture, so we shouldn't be seeing many CF's back to them. Especially since the road systems are now connected (so they get our Luxuries, keeping them happier) and the Governors are on in the recently captured cities; no Civil Disorders here!

I do see that the Settler is still stacked with the Swordsmen, however, and that the 2nd German city wasn't founded on the hill 3 tiles NW of Moscow. It isn't necessary to do that, but not doing it probably adds a 2-3 turn delay in taking over Russia up to this point.

Here's a picture of the Russian Front:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sg2_ad50RussEdit.JPG

I'm suggesting placing the two Swordsmen in Kiev as indicated to block the French Horsemen. All they can do is stay there (so can we), or go back to go around (most likely). My thought is I'd rather they watch while we take the Russian cities, than chance them getting lucky and taking one or two. (Edit - Oops, never mind; the Horsemen can go directly East. I need to remember activating the Grid.)

Other suggestions: our Army is costing us 59 gpt, and includes 16 Swordsmen and 8 Warriors. I'd suggest this is more than strong enough for now, and not to build any units unless urgently needed. And checking the F1 screen, only 1 city (Leipzig) is at size 6 which needs a 10% Lux rate. I'd suggest making an entertainer in Leipzig, convert the Swordsman build to a Settler and set Lux to 0%. (I've done that in the screenshot above; the difference is +17 gpt.) Likewise, Salzburg is about to build a Warrior; I'd change that to Library, or Galley maybe. (We still need to explore the sea.) More Workers are needed, but unit costs are high. Marketplaces are becoming very desireable.

Just checking in and no new responses in 30+ hours. Peanut has passed and Peglegasus is still out for another day. Planetfall - I believe you're up with bigchief on deck.

(Edit - Actually, it's been over 72 hours since Keith posted his turn. Peanut passed 48 hours ago, and Peglegasus is still on vacation. Planetfall has technically been auto-passed per SGOTM rules by not responding with a got-it within 24 hours of Peanut's post. So, I'll look for a got-it from Planetfall or bigchief (or a returning Peglegasus) over the next day. If no one picks up the game by tomorrow morning west-coast time, I'll pick it up.)

No response by any of the interim players, and over 90 hours from the last set of turns. I've got it.

Civ_Steve, I didn't see your edit to your post suggesting that Planetfall has been passed, until this morning. I can't possibly play until tomorrow. If you want to play it, go ahead.

I know we jumped over a lot of players, but it was nearly 4 days from the last turn. We'll never finish if we have gaps like this. I've finished the next set of turns. Normally Keith would be up next (I remembered this time!) but I have no problems at all if you, PF or Peglegasus want to take a turn.

Here is the turnlog:

Turn 0, 50 AD
Reset Luxury rate and builds as described
Berlin changed to Marketplace

Turn 1, 70 AD
Settler (1st Leipzig), 3 Workers made
Heidelberg completes Library, start on Marketplace
Munich changed to Courthouse
French Horsemen advance on Odessa
Move Settlers towards future city sites
Stack of Swords/1 Archer move towards Odessa
Short Stack available for Novgorod

Turn 2, 90 AD
2 French Horsemen fail, and are gone; 2 French Archers approach
French have Feudalism
Stacks advance on Odessa and Novgorod
Frankfurt founded between Moscow/Odessa/Novgorod

Turn 3, 110 AD
2 French Archers withdraw; Russia moves Archer from Odessa to Threaten Frankfurt
German Sword kills Russian Archer
5 High Stack now adjacent to Odessa
3 High Stack attacks and captures Novgorod (1 loss, 1 Promotion to Elite)
Barb camp in Jungle is dispersed
Heidelberg and Munich founded to claim much of NorthWest

Turn 4, 130 AD
Tokyo completes the Colossus
Moscow culture has expanded
Cologne fin Library; Settlers at Hamburg and Stuttgart
Odessa is captured, by 'Das Peanut' alone!!
Remaining Stack trudges on

Turn 5, 150 AD
Movement
French Archer enters German Culture

Turn 6, 170 AD
Nuremburg founded (NW); Cologne founded (Jungle, at dist 7)
3 Swords adj to Sevastopol in Jungle

Turn 7, 190 AD
Konigsberg fin Library
Sevastopol survives round 1 (1 Sword lost vs 1 Spear)
Sword at Sev reassigned to dispatch Archer
Smolensk and Yakutsk threatened

Turn 8, 210 AD
01Leipzig and 00Nuremburg fin Library
Yakutzk Taken with 1 Loss
Smolensk holds, with 1 loss

Turn 9, 230 AD
France and Russia sign Peace Treaty.
We Learn Theology; Trade Theo to France for Feudalism, WM and 97 Gold
Trade Feudalism to England for WM, 12 Gold and 3 gpt
Hannover founded, in NW area
Regroup, but advance on Sevastopol
England forms Liverpool in Jungle Zone

Turn 10, 250 AD
Sevastopol Taken
Bremen Founded in Jungle Zone
Maneuvering for Barbs near Bremen and in Jungle Zone


I'll try to post some screenshots later. Russia is down to 5 cities; I think we want to capture Smolensk and Tblisi to hold the Russian core, than take St Pete's and Sverdlovsk as part of peace negotiations, leaving Catherine with just one city on the far East coast. However, our forces are pretty spread out; it may be difficult to do this at this time. Alternative is to declare Peace, taking the two size 1 Towns, then Redeclare after the peace deal has expired. I'll leave those choices to the next player.

Our core is nearly all Libraried and working on Marketplaces, and our second Ring is nearing completion on its Libraries. After Marketplaces, we can build a few Horsemen for eventual Knight upgrade. With a Marketplace, we can be size 6 with 0 Luxuries (without, size 5; I check F1 nearly every turn to be sure no civil disorder occurs); We've nearly Settled everything of interest, we should start building our cities up, which will require Luxuries to go up as well. We learned Theology, and are a few turns into a 10 turn research of Education.

Two Settlers are waiting to found cities. The one in the NW should probably go one space North of where it is; I'd let the English Archer (who just dispersed a Barb camp) out first. Other Settler is in Jungle zone to East with a Warrior. There's a Barb camp out there as well, and the Warrior just took out a Barb Warrior. I'd like to found either in place, or 1 space SE.

There is also a few Barbs near Bremen; I moved a Sword over in that direction to help the Warrior and Spearman already there.

I'm leaving the French Archer alone. Wherever Joan moves it, I adjust defenders to match. I wouldn't challenge her on it; we have good terms with both England and France. We can use Workers to block her out even more eventually, and I think she'll get tired of the game and move back.

That's it.

Save file is here. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_AD0250_01.SAV)

all right i'm back from vacation! itchin' to play too. if no one posts anything for a few hours i'll grab the next set of turns tonight.

ok, i'm going for it! will post log and save later tonight.

All right, played my turns. It's good to be back in the game.

1) 260 AD 3 workers built, the french appear to be vacating, the settler in the east moves se as suggested, russian archer kills an archer of ours near tblisi.

2) 270 AD stuttgart founded, elite sword kills russian archer, 2 workers built

3) 280 AD 1 worker built, Berlin grows to size 6 and goes into disorder (bah! i'm rusty!) Das Peanut kills russian archer moving on novgorod.

4) 290 AD Bonn founded. popped hut on island... barbarians. frankfurt and liepzig grow to size six and need entertainers. i want to keep the science slider where it is.

5) 300 AD not much going on

6) 310 AD war weariness becoming a major factor. having to make a lot of entertainers/ tax collectors and such. i really want smolensk and then we can end this war.

7) 320 AD we research education and begin on astronomy in 10. cultural; influence expanding all over the place. reg sword attacks smolensk and dies. elite sword wins. elite warrior wins. bah! there's an archer sitting in there now. reinforcements on the way.

8) 330 AD barb camp dispersed near stuttgart.

9) 340 AD elite sword kills archer in smolensk, leaving another archer. must have snuck in the back. veteran sword takes him down. we sue for peace.
the deal nets us st. petersberg, vladiovostok, world map, +7 gold. tblisi is new russian capital, and they are left with one additional city. vet sword becomes elite fighting barb horsemen near yakutsk.

10) 350 AD dammit had a galley at sea... sunk now. duh! i'm really rusty.


so for the moment our people are happy. we could really use another luxury... i moved a worker just inside french territory to try and build a road. i don't know if joan will kick him out or not. with one little tile roaded in that spot we have a connection to paris and they have furs. we'll see what happens. a couple of towns are building a pikeman unit. we could use a couple more defensive units on the borders. i think we have enough workers for the moment. i began moving several to the southeast to begin connecting the towns down there that aren't hooked up and to clear a few jungle tiles to help their growth a bit.

i set research to astronomy thinking it would be good to try and reach the other continent or continents soon. would another tech path be better at this time? also, what to do with the corrupted russian cities on the southeast coast? there are barb camps down there so i thought of rushing a spearman in each to secure them, but i left it for the next player to decide.

there is a settler i was moving down to settle somewhere near smolensk... i didn't have adefinite spot picked out for him, just wanted to close up some of that territory. we need a few more settlers too after these marketplaces get built.

whoever plays next should look carefully at my save to make sure i haven't missed anything that really needs fixing. i've been away from the game for over a week and my mistakes sure showed it :blush:

anyway, good to be back
here's the save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_AD0350_01.SAV

Ok, back from mini-vacation. I have lost track of where we are with this.

Is it my turn, or have we switched the order because of the holiday?

PF

I say go ahead and play, Planetfall. We can just make it so that Steve played for Peanut, and we will be back in the regular rotation.

I agree that we should stick to the rotation. That means Steve should play again before me.

Keith

I think we should keep the rotation going; Planetfall is next!

Definitely want to get roads connected with France; they have an extra Fur to trade and Education would get it for us. (I also like to get Education in the AI's hands so they might research Banking for us.) When playing fast research, I usually leave Invention and Chivalry to the AI to research, and push up along the top row of Techs. If we need it, we can research to Navigation and cross the seas in safety.

If you want to upgrade our Spearmen to Pikes, that's fine, but I wouldn't build any more of either. Build Horsemen instead; we will need fast units to cover our vast empire, and eventually they will be come Knights and Cavalry.

Maybe someone could post a roster update... :)

The slope of our scoring curve has taken a sudden up-curve; :goodjob: Maybe we can catch some of the leading teams.

How's this look for our roster status:

bigchief
civ_steve
Keith Larson
Peanut - (turn played by civ_steve)
Peglegasus - just played
Planetfall - <---- UP!

Just reviewed the save file. I'm surprised the Russians gave us Vladivostok and kept Sverdlovsk. We want both of the remaining Russian cities, so we'll have to found one somewhere and give it to her. Maybe a tundra city on that Island to the North of Germany (near New Konigsberg.)

We still need lots of Workers! And there's still quite a bit of open space to found in to the East. Two barb camps are out there to be gotten rid of. I'd keep the Russian citizens working (currently they are all specialists in those two far off cities) and maybe build Warriors which are cheaper to rush if needed.

Just reviewed the save file. I'm surprised the Russians gave us Vladivostok and kept Sverdlovsk. We want both of the remaining Russian cities, so we'll have to found one somewhere and give it to her. Maybe a tundra city on that Island to the North of Germany (near New Konigsberg.).

actually i had my choice of those two in the peace settlement... couldn't get both. i chose vladivostok because of the horses adjacent to it and the cattle to the north. sverdlovsk is right on our border and will be a quick acquisistion next time. i wanted to keep going with the war but war weariness was really becoming a big problem and i wanted to get those marketplaces and libraries moving along.

We still need lots of Workers! And there's still quite a bit of open space to found in to the East. Two barb camps are out there to be gotten rid of. I'd keep the Russian citizens working (currently they are all specialists in those two far off cities) and maybe build Warriors which are cheaper to rush if needed.

you're right we do need more workers. i just went back and looked at the save... took a screen of the settler near smolensk and where i think is a good spot for him.

Very good. I also feel we should settle and culturally occupy all the vacant lands on the Eastern part of our continent. And we need lots more Workers to clear the jungle and string roads through our expanded territories, let alone mine hills and mountains. Probably need to keep many of our core cities just at or below size6 to build the Settlers and Workers we need, while maintaining research. (Or say research is primary need, build these cities up as high as possible, and expand/develop more slowly.)

Anyway, you're up Planetfall! Give us a 'Got It' soon.

was just looking at the gotm31 results... interesting that 3 of us had diplo victories, and civ_steve with an award for fastest diplo victory! very cool :)

was just looking at the gotm31 results... interesting that 3 of us had diplo victories, and civ_steve with an award for fastest diplo victory! very cool :)

Yeah, there seemed to be more diplo wins than usual. Congrats. civ_steve. Yet again, I am humbled.

Thanks, guys! There were a LOT of Diplo submittals; even more than Domination. Maybe people were getting some practice in for this SG. :mischief: Kuningas really owned the title of quickest researcher for GOTM31; we should take special note of how his team is doing.

Planetfall: do you have the Game?

Civ_steve,

Yeah, got it. Starting.

PF

NEXT !!!!!

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_AD0450_01.SAV

PF

Yahoooooo, we gained on Offa!!! something good came out of this.

_T 0
Renamed Moscow to Moscow_FP to make easier to find.
Moscow: Ring1 distance 3: Frankfurn
Moscow: Ring1 distance 4: Novgorod
Moscow: Ring1 distance 5: Warwick, Kiev, Minsk
Moscow: Ring1 distance 6: Berlin, Smolensk
Doesn't seem like will be easy to consolate, so just leave as settled.

Moscow: Ring2, distance 7: Odessa
Ring2, distance 8: Rheims, Tblisi
Distance 9: Sverdlovsk, Cologne, Sevastopol
Distance 10: Orleans
Distance 11: Yakutsk

Looks like 9 from Moscow would be best for 2nd ring.

Terrain wise we have 19.6%, 483 tiles. Next closest is Japan with 11.7%, 288 tiles. India has 10.0%, 247 and China has 9.3%, 229 tiles.

Joan complains about troops near Orleans, we apologize. She has a worker but not sure if need it now.


__t1 360AD
WhooHooo. Warwick wants to join us. We decide to accept.
This is a building stage, defeated one barb horse, but nothing noteworthy.
Moscow & another city need an entertainer, so we switch citizen work.
Long range we don't have many good navy port city potentials:
We'll need at least 3 to 4 for transports and destroyers.
4 shields: Hamburg, Odessa
1 shields: Bonn, Hannover, Munich, New Konigsburg, Vladivosto, Dortmund
Salzburg, Yakutsk, Smolensk, St Petes.

Joan has invention and wants Education and 16 gold. We'll wait a bit, no one else has anything

_t2 370 AD
More of the same.
Happy 69, content 22, sad 33, entertainers 8

_T3 380 AD
Barb horseman moving towards city, no defenders. At least it is just one.
Moved research to 5 and gain 20 more gold, so maybe will be a wash.

_T4 390
Barb only took 6 gold, but lost one cit in Heidelburg from starving

_T5 400
Finally got Astromony. Researching Banking. Starting to see settler pairs
Plant New Berlin as some of our young girls are demanding ivory ear rings.
We broke up barb hut SE of Yakutsk and got 25 gold back.

_T6 410
Joan wants Spice+320g for furs. Still Ed+16g for Invention
Couldn't find a good trade, we wait. Pre Copernius is not an ideal time for trades

_T7 420
Ditto.

_T8 430
Steve you said to trust Joan. She just took Kiev and declared war!!!!!
She also took Odessa
We got 2 workers from a settler pair by Minsk.
Rush marketplace in 02Konigsberg for 48g
Open embassy with Elizabeth, and she supports our righteous indignation against the Frence backstabbers. Oh, we had to bribe her with 99 g, but it was worth it.
We gambled and lost Police1, i.e. sword to Joans horse in Kiev. Got down to one HP.

_ T9 440
Tried to force Odessa, sword vs spear. Lost sword.

_T10 450
Landed Settler NE of Konigsberg for new city where warrior is.
By sharing the green land we should be able to grab any strategic resources
on this island if they show up later.
Sword gets Kiev back, but it's not sustainable. 1 arch nearby and stacks
on the way.

Someone else's turn to take over this mess. Did I ever mention I don't trust Joan?
Scores:
Germany 761
Happy 90, content 20, sad 33, resisting 0, entertainers 7
Terrain:
Germany 513 tiles, 20.8%
Japan 300, 12.2%
India 244, 9.9%
China 235, 9.5%
France 226, 9.2%
England 196, 8.0%
Russia 27, 1.1%

There's 3 swords by Smolensk on the way towards Odessa/Kiev, other than that military is sparse.

PF

.. took a screen of the settler near smolensk and where i think is a good spot for him.

Sorry missed this until after turn, I was feeling bad about taking too long before playing. I planted closer to mountains but still within range of Ivory. I was trying to leave room for another future city between new city and Smolensky if we need it.

Next time I'll have time to read your notes before playing.

PF

How's this look for our roster status:

bigchief - <---- UP!
civ_steve - on deck
Keith Larson - in the hole
Peanut - (turn played by civ_steve)
Peglegasus - played
Planetfall - just played


PF

I would have gifted Spice (or some other extra Luxury) to Joan, and traded Education for Furs or Invention, whatever seemed best. It's really rare that a civ will attack you and lose a gifted Luxury. (I would have done the same with Elizabeth, gifted a Luxury once available.) This would also have started a process to assure their Vote once the UN is available.

I would also have started research on Navigation. We want to locate and trade with the other civs. Banking allows us to build Banks, which really aren't needed since we have fairly low taxes.

Thanks for the hints Steve. I had hoped to wait until turn 10 to trade for Education, I made a mistake and thought she was moving to settle in open land to E and not attack.

PF

I've looked at the save file. Unless we lost them during the first turns of the war, we have no Horsemen! (A Russian zone city will complete one in two turns.) As a goal, we need 10-15 Horsemen for offensive-defensive purposes; eventually they will be Knights, and later Cavalry. Our empire is so big that we should plan on having a few slow units (Swordsmen/Medinf/Pikes etc) in each area for immediate response, with fast units (Horsemen/Knights) to back them up. The Vast bulk of our forces (maybe 50%) should be at the English and French fronts.

Concluding this war and getting on with things is primary concern, of course. Lots of Swords around Smolensk; leave one and move the rest to the front. We have enough gold to upgrade 3 Warriors to Swords; do this and move to front. Or, rush Horsemen if a good choice. France only has Archers in the field now; should be able to defeat them and retake Odessa. (May take several turns, of course). France has been our only research assistant; I'd like to retain them for this if possible, so I'd recommend re-establishing the border, and getting a peace treaty.

We have two wonders being built. Newton's, to trigger GA, is our only Wonder requirement. Might convert Berlin to Univ, and then start building Horses.

Research priority has to be Navigation, to gain contact and trade with other civs. France, if left alone, will probably do Gunpowder for us. After that, Metallurgy is probably the only required MidAges Tech we might get.

I got it. I will play later tonight or tomorrow morning. If anyone wants to make any suggestions before then, go ahead.

From 350 ad
===========
01 settler
34 workers
07 warriors
04 spears
12 swords
01 galley


450 ad
=======
03 settler
37 workers
07 warriors
04 spears
10 swords
02 pike
02 galley


As you can see, not much change in military during my turn. Steve has a
good point we all could focus on having at least 10 fast movers available.
I didn't build up military more as I thought I remembered someone wanting to
keep military small to keep reoccuring costs down.


Sistine was a long shot. Possible prebuild for Smiths. I have usually needed/wanted smiths for happiness controls, but if there is an alternative solution I am open. Sistine is not essential but Smiths is usually important. My usual research path is banking, economics for the income boast [whether smith or not], and then navigation if it is still available.


In terms of France, a suggested goal would be to only recover lost cities and then switch to defensive battles. This way we wouldn't have taken any original Fr cities. I think this helps us in civ's opinion of us, but have not tested that. England should be happy with us if we help her somehow and take back the 2 cities. That could count as a friend.

I was trying to build up Salzberg as our primary naval yard. You might see other good ports, but we don't have any closer to capital. I haven't examined effect around FP. What I can't remember for sure, but think if put a port on connector NE of Yakutsk, then Smolensk would also be available for ship building. I was heading a settler there to see if that would work. I think it depends on the size of the lake, whether it is fresh water or salt. Terrain currently shows coast. Yes it is true, Smolensky can currently build ships, and is close to Moscow, so with port city working as a canal we would have a path to the sea.

Other than that, it is probably more important to get 2 cities on the NW island than to expand fully to SE. Usually these islands have good strategic resources. I'm hoping the settler in position on the island with one city will in the future reward us with some kind of good resource.

Oh, if we can help England so Rheims falls, there might be an opportunity to get furs from Rheims. Not that important, but something to watch for, so if it happens, we are ready to take the free luxury.

FP

Generals - progress looks great !

Please don't hesitate to jump in if the 24 hour "got-it" limit has expired - its the only way to keep things going, and the player missed will have their turn come around soon enough anyway.

Karasu - I will get a summary posted soon.

Sorry again that I have not been keeping up with this. In the last few days I have barely had enough spare time to break wind let alone booting up Civ or getting on line.

I would have gifted Spice (or some other extra Luxury) to Joan, and traded Education for Furs or Invention, whatever seemed best. It's really rare that a civ will attack you and lose a gifted Luxury. (I would have done the same with Elizabeth, gifted a Luxury once available.) This would also have started a process to assure their Vote once the UN is available.

I would also have started research on Navigation. We want to locate and trade with the other civs. Banking allows us to build Banks, which really aren't needed since we have fairly low taxes.
I find that gifting luxuries & techs is an excellent strategy for building polite / gracious attitudes. This will be important for our victory. Banks are useful in low corruption / high cash cities for the extra cash flow - useful for rushing educational improvements to speed up research. Also useful for bribes, etc. If we can get Smiths then all the better for cash flow.

We've nearly finished researching Banking, so we should surely finish it. (For future reference, Banking is one of the few techs I rely on the AI to research for me; that's usually 6-10 turns I cut off my games when going for Diplo or Spaceship Victory; it works because I'll get Education in the AI's hands, then research Astronomy, Navigation, then Techs along the bottom path and usually someone will get Banking before I'm through)

I like Smith's, but Economics is an optional Tech. So is Navigation, but Navigation gets us first contact with the other civs in the game. This can be immeasureably valuable for trading Luxuries and Techs. In my recent Gotm31 game, Economics was finally learned about 15 turns before the end of the game. It had absolutely no effect on the outcome. I think we should focus on the requirements to win a Diplo Victory quickly, not on what would be nice to have.

PF - Yes, I said we needed to limit military builds to preserve treasury costs. That was about 5 sessions ago. More recently I suggested we build Libraries, Marketplaces and then Horsemen in our core cities, the idea being that the extra income from the Marketplaces would allow an expansion in our Military while maintaining a fast research pace. Strategy changes as events unfold; one approach doesn't last past 15-20 turns. And I also said you can trust Joan - that works if you give her a reason to trust you, and that involves Trading, preferably 20 turn deals (although I almost NEVER sign MPP's!)

Yes CS you're right - we must focus on the essential techs. This game is essentially a race for Fission while being friends with almost everyone.

CS,

Thanks for the explanations. One of the great values of SG's is learning new approaches.
It should be interesting to see how this plays out.

PF

Turn 0 - Changed a couple of productions to horsemen. Rushed a couple of horsemen.

Turn 1 - Sword defends against archer in Kiev. Pikeman moves into Kiev. Sword in Kiev attacks and kills archer. Our new horse kills archer. Elite warrior dies attacking Odessa.

Turn 2 - We learn Banking - Navigation in 7. Many French trrops in our territory. Pikeman in Kiev defends against archer. Sword in Kiev kills archer. Wounded horse near Minsk retreats. Move workers out of harms way. Barb horse appears near New Berlin. Traded Liz WM for WM, TM & 27 Gold.

Turn 3. French take Kiev. Barb ransacks New Berlin for 1 Gold. Movement by troops, workers, galleys, & settlers. Konigsberg founded on island.

Turn 4 - 2 Horses fail to take Kiev. They kill one archer, and retreat to safety. Settlers near yakutsk have slowed to wait for escort. There are barbs in the area.

Turn 5 - Retook Kiev. Sword escorting settlers kills barb. Sword kills archer near Frankfurt.

Turn 6 - Horse attacks French Settler/Spear pair and wins. No more French in our territory.

Turn 7 - Not Much. While checking to see if Liz had anything new, our foreign advisor said "The best unit the Russians have - that we know of - is the Galley".

Turn 8 - Our warrior in Bremen steps out and kills a barb horse. We loose one horse trying to take out a French settler/spear pair. Follow-up horse finishes the task and captures workers. Elite sword attacks longbow near Odessa, wins, and produces Leader.

Turn 9 - Liz, who has at least 2 troops in our territory, asks us to remove a warrior from hers. Barb horse pillages New Berlin and destroys our production on pikeman. We Learn Navigation - Invention in 4. Sword takes out barb camp on southern tip of our territory. We capture Odessa. There is much unhappiness from our ungreatful citizens.

Turn 10 - Spear in St. Petersburg defends against barb horse. Galley of easternmost point spots a dark green border. New Leipzig & New Hamburg Founded.

Notes: I didn't make much progress. Mostly trying to defend for the first several turns. I built a couple of barracks in addition to many horsemen. There are more being built. We have 8 turns left in our alliance with Liz. I think we should take Rheims with the furs, and go into defensive posture until the war is over. Liz has just learned Invention. She will trade it and all her gold and maps for Education. I leave it to the next player to decide. Our Leader has arrived in our capital. I leave it to the next player to decide what to do with him. In a normal game, I would build an army, but since we are not going to war much, we might as well rush a wonder. I would either use the shields in the capital for a university or bank, and rush Sistine in another town, or stay with Sistine, and use the leader to rush Leo's after the invention trade.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_AD0550_01.SAV)

our roster status:


civ_steve - <---- UP!
Keith Larson - on deck
Peanut - in the hole
Peglegasus - snoozing
Planetfall - sleeping
bigchief - just played

PF

BigChief,

I think you did well. There was not much military to work with. You did get Kiev back. You switched away from economics. CS convinced me this is a good move for this game.

I would agree that Rheims and furs would be a great addition before stopping. But CS is the diplo expert, it's his turn and he may have other ideas.

In this game I wouldn't bother burning a leader for an army. CS trades a lot for happiness so maybe it would be best to use leader for Newtons.

I've talked too much for awhile. I'm going to listen to the rest of you.

Later.

PF

bigchief: good set of turns! It was a difficult situation with all the French units heading our way, but that tide has turned. It would be nice to have 4 native Luxuries; perhaps Joan needs a small lesson? OTOH, once contacts are made, I would be surprised if we had less than 7 or 8 luxuries the rest of the game. (We will need ports to connect to; hopefully they have built them) Once Alliance runs it's 20 turns, I'll let it lapse and sign for peace shortly after.

I'm not usually concerned about Sistine's. Since Sanitation is an optional Tech, I don't consider it essential, and the AI may wait until late in the IA to research it. With size 12 towns or less and 7-8 Luxuries with a Marketplace, Cathedrals aren't a requirement. Leo's would provide a benefit with future upgrades; and Copernicus' would help research. I wouldn't build an army at this point. Recommend Leo's or Copernicus's, and keep a pre-build growing for Newton's. There's probably about 30 turns left in the MidAges, so that will figure into the pre-build.

I'll download the save later tonight, probably play it Wednesday morning; please make any suggestions or post any thoughts, particularly regarding the leader.

CS : Sounds like a good strategy. A scientific wonder would be most useful - anything to push research along is good for us.

I've reviewed the Save file. bigchief has gotten us up to 10 Horsemen included in our army! Only French unit in sight is a Longbow deep within their culture. I plan to tone down the build up a bit, and focus on more Workers and Settlers to develop our Territory.

Best research city is Berlin. I propose to change Berlin's pre-build of Sistine Chapel to University (which throws away about 100 shields, unfortunately), then use Richthoffen to rush Copernicus' Observatory in Berlin. After that, store shields for a possible Newton's University in Berlin. Leipzig also has about 200 shields stored; I'd keep the pre-build going there to use if Berlin can't build Newton's fast enough, or to switch to something else down the line (Palace can be used to hold shields if necessary).

Plan to build Catherine's future tundra capital, gift it to her, then finish off Tblisi and Sverdlovsk. No alliances, so we can sign peace as soon as she has been exiled.

Other plans: peace with Joan as soon as Alliance with Elizabeth expires; reconnect German and French empires; connect English empire; make foreign contacts and trades; bap some Barbs on the head.

Any comments?

Sounds like a good plan to me. The only thing you didn't mention was taking the furs from Joan. I still think we need to do that. I had one horse heading towards New Berlin to go and take out that barb camp down there. That one was a pain during my whole set of turns.

Sounds good, I agree with Bigchief, we should get furs before end campaign.

PF

[QUOTE=bigchief]Notes: I didn't make much progress. Mostly trying to defend for the first several turns. QUOTE]

On the contrary, it sounds like you did an excellent job.

As far as future strategy, I think making peace after acquiring some nice mufflers and coats (and after the alliance with Liz lapses of course) is a good idea. Very nice that we got another leader. I've been playing a game as China and have been at war almost continually up to 500AD and haven't gotten a single leader! Anyway, keep up the good work!

General concensus appears to include obtaining a German source of Furs. It goes against my 'good nature' (Catherine snickers at that ;) ) for a few reasons: taking Rheims will reduce Joan's capability more than it will add to ours, this reduces the chance that Joan will provide us future Techs in trade, the final act of this game most likely will include capturing the UN from an AI player and it would be easier if that player were France or England (slightly less likely with this reduction), and we will be losing military units to gain a Luxury that we could gain without loss through trade.

This is a community game, so I will capture Rheims, barring some event that changes the status. I'm off!!

CS,

Don't forget to explain to us how you get 6..8 luxuries after meeting other civs. I have usually thought prices were too high. But I am open to learning how to always have 6..8 luxs.

PF

Elementary, my dear planetfall ... observe the Turn Log

Turn 0, 550 AD
Change a number of builds to Workers/Settlers and the like
Trade Education to England for Invention, WM and 46 Gold
France has Gunpowder already (Shame we're at war with Alliance; a trade now would save several turns!)
Start on Gunpowder, at 70% (4 turns, -45 gpt)
Switch Berlin to University (lose 115 Shields)

Turn 1, 560 AD
Berlin completes University
Contact the Japanese; they have lots of cities, and are at start of MidAges
Trade Engineering for Contacts with India and Chinese, and WM
Trade Engineering for WMs, loose Gold (not much, total of maybe 50), and get 4 gpt from India
India has Chivalry, contemplate that
I see some Harbors, but am unable to trade for Luxuries, maybe next turn
Horsemen can see Rheims; a Pikeman is visible; English have been attacking

Turn 2, 570 AD
IBT, France loses 1 LongB vs Horse on Hill; 2nd LongB takes Horse
We retake hill with Elite Horse (no GL)
Berlin completes Copernicus' Observatory; starts on Leo's
Now we can trade!
Trade Invention to Japan for Wines, Gems and WM
Trade Invention and Spices to China for Silks and WM
Gift Spice to Japan
Gift Ivory to India
Lux to 0%; Research to 50% gains GunPowder in 2; +46 gpt

Turn 3, 580 AD
Barb camp cleared out to East; Settler moving in to claim area
French LongB forces Elite Horse to Retreat; defeats 1 Reg Horseman, but loses to 2nd
Preparing to found city near Rheims
Preparing to found city to form future connection with England
Up to 55 Workers now

Turn 4, 590 AD
Learn Gunpowder, start on Chemistry (5 turns at 70%, -42 gpt, 274 in Treasury)
English kill 1 Spear at Rheims, defense is getting desperate

Turn 5, 600 AD
New Frankfurt founded, 2 space East of Rheims
Large Force moves adjacent to Rheims

Turn 6, 610 AD
Rheims falls; lose 1 Horsemen tenderizing the defenders; Swords follow-up, Furs are ours
2 more turns for the Alliance
Irrigation has reached Yakutsk
French Spear/Settler lands in NW

Turn 7, 620 AD
Found New Munich near English Border
Found Catherine's Ice palace on Tundra to North
Found New Heidelberg in Jungle Zone
Lose Spearman trying to clear Barb Camp
Research reduced to 60% (Chem in 2, -3 gpt, 142 Treasury)

Turn 8, 630 AD
Disperse Barb Camp in desert zone
Chem in 1 at 50%, +18 gpt
Connected to France
Workers connecting to England

Turn 9, 640 AD
Learn Chemistry, start Physics at 70% (5 turns, -50 gpt, 182 Treasury)
Swords destroy Cherbourg, in NW zone
Alliance is not renewed
Peace with France
Trade Education or Gunpowder to any who don't have it, for WMs and Gold (291 Treasury)
Gift Chemistry to Everybody (except Russia; I want someone to research Metallurgy for us)
Give Spices to France, they are now Polite, as is everyone else

Turn 10, 650 AD
Connected to York (but York isn't connected to London!)
Sign ROP with England, send in 2 Workers to finish Roads
Position Forces at Novgorod, 04r1Heidelberg and Minsk for future actions against Russia
Reduce Science to 60%, Physics still in 4 but only -10 gpt
Signing off

As you can see, the "obsolete" Tech of Engineering got us all the WMs and Contacts, and the "soon to be sort of obsolete" Tech of Invention got us 3 Luxuries. I made sure that our excess Luxuries were pouring into Japanese, Indian and Chinese ports, too; this makes them much less likely to be aggressive; after all, their people are made very unhappy if they lose their Luxuries.

Every 20 turns, we will want to trade another "obsolete" tech to renew the Luxuries we are getting, and also renew the Luxuries we are giving. We are now researching in the 5 turns per Tech range (need to get to 4!), so we should have no problem maintaining a Tech lead to trade older Techs for luxuries.

After declaring Peace with France, the combination of Tech and Luxury gifts made her Polite with us as well. Joan may be the one that researches Metallurgy for us, gaining us 4-6 turns advance.

I went really crazy with Worker production, we now have 81!! :lol: And we're still a long way away from turning all our lands into productive spaces! And pretty soon we will need to build lots of railroads, so I think we can take the hit in cost for all the workers.

Anyway, we're researching Physics, 4 more turns. After that, should be TheoryofGravity (so we can change one of our pre-builds to Newton's), and then Magnetism. I'd maintain the maximum research sustainable, and check every turn to see if the research % can be lowered without increasing the number of turns; our Treasury would appreciate that. Hopefully, in the 12-14 turns it will take us to do this, someone else will research Metallurgy for us; if so, we can trade one of our Techs for it, and become Industrial. If not, then we'll have to start Research on it and check every turn to see if someone else has it (we want to cut any turns off that we can.) Steam Power has to be a priority upon entering the IA; we or Russia might get it for free; it would be nice to force Russia into the IA, see what she gets and try to trade for it before we go IA; that way we could assure that we get 2 IA techs available to us. (I've heard it's possible through the "show me the big picture" process, but I'm not sure if we can force Russia ahead of us) Once we reach the IA, we will need a big discussion to determine how the AI might best help us.

Our pre-builds are the original Berlin, and the original Leipzig. Leipzig has almost enough shields to build Newton's. It would be better to build it in Berlin, which has more uncorrupted commerce available; but Berlin is more turns away from completing it. In either case, it shouldn't be built until we enter or are entering the IA; we will need the increased commerce to keep research up with the increased IA research costs. Delay completion if necessary.

I've given Russia a tundra city on the island to the north, and I've gathered much of our forces near the 2 Russian cities in the original Russian core. I've left it to future players as to when to declare on Russia, and whether to use Horses (available now) or Knights (after Trade for Chivalry and upgrades). I haven't traded for Chivalry because we'd have to reduce our research rate to afford the upgrade to Knight. I think we can take Tblisi and Sverdlovsk with the Horses/Swords we have and not sweat the cost to upgrade, but that's a topic for further discussion. I am still building a few Horsemen, to build up the force, and to provide some replacements if needed.

I've added a few cities to the Wild Wild East section; 2 or 3 more will take away any open space for Barbs to pop up in, and a Settler is heading out that way now.

Oh yeah, I've signed the ROP with England, and sent 2 Workers into English Territory to connect their roads (to London) with ours. Once that's done (5 turns or so), we need to get a Luxury (Ivory) into their hands so they wont think about attacking us!

bigchief
civ_steve <-- just played
Keith Larson <----- UP!!
Peanut
Peglegasus
planetfall

(oops, edited to put the right order in!)
Here is the 650 AD Save. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_AD0650_01.SAV)

81 workers! wow! sounds like a good set of turns. can't wait to see the map.

edit: just looked at the save... very cool. 7 luxuries currently makes lots of happy citizens :goodjob: we should build embassies with our new friends soon. other than that it looks like things are moving along very well.

I agree about the embassies, but I wouldn't slow down research so as to get the Gold to build them. Each Tech trade will clear the AI of any excess gold in their combined treasuries, so I think we'll be able to do that while maintaining research in a few turns.

Keith: thinking about it, we can't afford to wait on taking Russia down to 1 city. We want to push Russia into the IndAge as we enter it; hopefully the two of us will get two unique Techs, and in any case we don't want to research a Tech we can get in a trade, so we want to see what Catherine gets before we start researching in the IA. Problem is, if she gets Nationalism, we'll be up against Riflemen, not Spearmen. I've split our forces, but I think it would now be better to concentrate near Novgorod, declare War, take Tblisi, then rush our units to Sverdlovsk, assuring that both cities fall in succession, rather than take a chance that one or both survive a simultaneous assault.

2nd thought:Just to be more sure that the AI is researching Metallurgy for us, how about trading/gifting Banking and Astronomy for whatever loose change the AI has lying about? If one or more of them have started on one of those 2 Techs, this will give them the opportunity to start researching Metallurgy, or one of the other Optional Techs (such as Economics, Printing Press, etc), which we could then trade for later. This appeals to me more as I think about it. After all, once we enter the IA we'll have to bring them along with us to help out in research; if we gain benefit now, so much the better.

One last thing: I haven't traded our WM to anyone else, nor have I traded Contacts between the 2 continents. I believe there is only one required MidAges tech that the AI can help out with (Metallurgy) and I probably wouldn't trade them WM or Contacts until we're in the IndAge. (There's a slight chance that trading them Physics once we've learned it will shave a turn or two off Magnetism, if one of them starts on it right away, but I think that's remote.) I'd wait until Catherine gets her free IA Tech (we'll be giving her a LOT of Techs on the turn we enter the IA), and see if trading WM and Contacts along with whatever Tech we have to trade helps to get her Tech; after that, I'd give everyone mutual contact.

(come to think about it, I believe I saw an Indian Galley off our Western Coast. If so, Gandhi probably has contact with Elizabeth, so this Contacts issue might not last long anyway. In any case, they have nothing to trade for it.)

Oh yeah, one more thing! (Sorry) Just because we have a ROP with England doesn't mean she gets the run of the place. If she tries to move anybody into our territory, block them off (with units, or Workers, and definitely protect any cities she can reach). In fact, it would be a good idea to place a spearman on the Hill where our road connects over to York; that way she has to go around, or break the ROP. I have gotten a little burned by the AI with ROPs, so I usually block all the good roads coming into my territory and severely restrict the movements of any 'tourists'.

Keith: it's been just over 24 hours; you need to post a 'Got It' message, or let us know if you need to be passed this round!

Steve and the team,

Just read your posts. Checked yesterday morning and you had not posted your turn. From that point my day got crazy and has not slowed down until now. I have commitments until at least 8:30 PM this evening. I will do my turns after that.

Keith

Got to it a little earlier.


Turn 0: 650 AD
.

Turn 1: 660 AD
India has landed at the sight of the destroyed French city. Lots of workers produced, making more along with starting more horsemen. Making preparation for attack on Russia.

Turn 2: 670 AD
Dacca founded by India. Nothing to trade.

Turn 3: 680 AD
Will declare war on Russia next turn. Still nothing to trade.

Turn 4: 690 AD
Learned Physics and start Theory of Gravity. Everyone now has Chivalry. Trade Education to Russia for everything she’s got and then declare war on her. Declare war on Russia.

Turn 5: 700 AD
Sverdlovsk fell with no loses. Tbisi fell with no loses as well. We got one worker and 0 gold for our efforts. Catherine does not want to talk to us. I can’t understand why!

Turn 6: 710 AD
Road to London is complete. Catherine still will not talk!

Turn 7 720 AD
Minsk is rioting. I missed it in F1 sorry guys. Sverlovsk is unhappy also. Catherine still will not talk. I wish I could get this war over with! New Cologne founded in the SE near the whale and cows.

Turn 8: 730 AD
Catherine finally talks. We are at peace again. India now has Banking. I trading it with the rest but I would get nothing for it. Will give her Gunpowder and Chemistry to help her along the tech path.


Turn 9: 740 AD
We learn the Theory of Gravity and start Magnetism in 4 turns. The French complete the Art of War at Orleans. Berlin switches to Newtons.


Turn 10: 750 AD
Nothing of interest except a clumsy mouse moment. Had a stack of workers go were I did not intend. Things look good we have more settlers on the way to fill in gaps and everything else is building our research or economy.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_AD0750_01.SAV

Things have been very busy here in Peanut World, but ...

Got it ... now ... how do I play this game ??? Hmmm ... it should come back to me soon I hope.

Good to see that our illustrious leader will guide us through the next set of turns! :D Don't worry; playing Civ3 is like riding a bicycle, if you don't mind getting bruised knees occasionally ;)

I loaded the 750 save and took a look. Like I was afraid, the AI decided to research Banking and Astronomy (India, France and China). There's still a chance one of the AI will research Metallurgy, but that hope is getting slimmer. Even if we learn Magnetism, and start on Metallurgy, we should check every turn to see if a Trade has become available; every turn we can shave off is advantageous.

Russia is currently limited to her Tundra city (good job Keith!!), where she can play a part of providing us her free Techs.

England is connected, but we haven't given her any Luxuries. I would suggest gifting her Ivory immediately; we have a ROP agreement, but she might decide to renege, especially if Liverpool is about to flip. A free Luxury is a better enticement to stay friends.

Steam Power is the key Tech to start off the IndAge. I know Nationalism is popular, but it is also optional and the AI will research it for us; Steam power starts us on the path of required IA Techs. Ideally, we will get it for free (1/3 chance). If we don't get it, we can gift Russia into the IA, and see if she gets it for free; if so we might be able to trade for it using our free IA tech, and Navigation (guaranteed if we get Nationalism; marginal if we get Medicine). If she doesn't want to part with it right away, then we can start research on it which will reduce the trade cost until she will trade it. If neither of us gets it, than we want to start research on it right away.

After we get Steam Power, we have to make a choice. We want to maintain fast research, the question is how fast? The fastest way through the IA is to target certain required Techs for the AI to research for you. In my experience, ReplaceableParts is one such Tech. Another might be Industrialism, or possibly Refining. And if we choose Refining, we might get some help with Steel for a possible third tech. Here's how each strategy might be approached.

1.) ReplParts and Ind: learn Steam Power, gift/trade it to all AI; learn Electricity, gift/trade it to all AI; research Medicine (if not known already), SciMeth, AtomTheory, Electronics and Radio, keeping an eye out for when the targeted Techs become Available, and trading for them when they do. Problem is, they almost always research Nationalism first, so you might get ReplParts but not Ind, and you wont have any options but to start researching it once you're done with Radio.

2.) ReplParts and Refining (possibly Steel); start the same - learn Steam Power, gift/trade it to all AI; learn Electricity, gift/trade it to all AI; (here's where it varies) learn Industrialsm and Corporation; gift/trade both to all AI; then start on Medicine (if not Known), ScienMeth, AtomTheory, Electr and Radio. This gives them a little more time to do research, and they might help us gain 3 techs (a minimum of 12 turns off the final time.)

Now, option 3.) the first two options require us to take very little gpt from the AI; this allows them to maintain a higher research rate which we are trying to take advantage of. We might choose 1 or 2 civs to hit hard for Gold, and the leave the rest as good researchers. Option 3 is to assume we will do all research ourselves, taking every gold piece from the AI that we can. This is a safer, more comfortable route, but not the fastest. However, it is an option.

However the early IA is handled, we definitely want to be assured of building Newton's University, just after entering the IA (triggering our GA). Berlin is the better city for it, but it needs about 10 more turns to complete it, and we might be IA in as few as 3. I'm a little worried that if we enter the IA, get Steam Power and gift it (and the other MidAges Techs) to the other AI, that one or more of them will have enough Shields to cascade to Newton's and ace us out. Therefore, Leipzig might be the better city to actually build it (I think it has enough shields to finish it right now; we still want to wait until we enter the IA) if there's a risk that someone else might finish it first.

Our Luxury deals with the other continent's AI are about to expire. We can easily renew them by trading Physics when the time comes; we don't want to lose control of those Luxuries, so be sure to trade another Tech when the deal expires. Later on, renewing Tech for Luxury trades will sometimes dictate when we trade for an AI Tech or when we trade/gift a Tech to the AI, if we choose options 1 or 2.

"Illustrious Leader" eh Civ_Steve ? I've been more like an illustrious figurehead recently :king: . And a pretty sorry one at that. Sorry folks for my less than full participation - end of semester caught up with me and I forgot just what it could be like (it's been 22 years since I was last studying full-time).

CS - I like your plan, but I finished before reading your strategy plan. I think based on my ten turns that it's option 1. Basically we have Newtons, Steam, Medicine and we are in our GA. We have loads of luxuries from tech trades as you recommend, and we are taking cash from Joan and Ghandi, and a token gpt from Japan.

Anyway, here it is my fellow Generals - not a very technically skilled set of moves but progress nonetheless ...

Pre-turn : Looks good, but the cash will dry up soon. Maybe a gpt trade for techs soon ? We will start a few banks soon in high-commerce cities only. Here goes :

IBT : Nothing of interest happening. Barb boats practice their rowing on the lake – perhaps we will challenge them to a regatta one day … with an ironclad maybe ?

1. 760AD : Moscow starts a bank. A few workers done, more to come. Start moving workers to our core cities in preparation for rails in case we get Steam early. Trade Physics to Ghandi for WM+79G+39gpt, to Joan for 20g+7gpt. Mag in 2 !

IBT : Boring.

2. 770AD : More workers roll out … we lost wine & gems ! New Hannover settled in jungle. Galleys exploring. Get Wines+Gems from Japan for Spices+Incense+Banking+Physics.

IBT : Boring. Lost Silks but no trade just yet …

3. 780AD : Magnetism done. Metallurgy in 4. A few more workers. Novgorod starts University. Palace expansion offer. Improvements around core cities. Frankfurt switch to Aquaduct. Trade WM+16g+silks with Mao for Physics+Banking. Got to keep the people happy for the score ! Open an embassy with Cathy – she has one spearman under construction and one citizen. We may want to gift her luxuries, so we will need a road to her.

IBT : Boring.

4. 790AD : More improvements. Road to Cathy started.

IBT : Boring

5. 800AD : More improvements around core cities. No trades worth doing. Lizzie & Joan still fighting but to no effect it seems.

IBT : Boring. Cathy gets upset about our workers but we sign an ROP with her.

6. 810AD : More improvements. Road to Cathy continuing.

IBT : Indians land on the northern arctic island.

7. 820AD : We enter IA ! We suddenly know …. Medicine ! More workers into service. Ok Cathy, time for your education to accelerate !. Here’s Banking, Metallurgy and Astronomy. Oh, and here’s Physics. Still ignorant ? Here’s some heavy knowledge – ToG. And Magnetism to point you in the right direction. Lo ! Cathy knows all about Steam Power !!! So, let’s trade, darling Cathy … Steam for Medicine & Navigation. Some more trading … Nav for WM+80g+2gpt to Ghandi, Dyes+3gpt for ToG+Ivory to Japan. We now research Electricity in 7. And we have 2 sources of coal !

IBT : Boring

8. 830AD : More universities on line ! Full steam ahead with railroads ! No useful trades available.

IBT : Boring.

9. 840AD : Newtons on line ! Plus our Great Wall, courtesy of Cathy, means A GOLDEN AGE has dawned for Germany ! More railroads please. Electricity in 3. Sell ToG to Joan for WM+12g+5gpt. Any cash helps …

IBT : Nothing of interest.

10. 850AD : More railroading.

Gratuitous Advice : 3 Settlers are heading to likely spots. One could squeeze into the empty area north of England, the other two into the SW corner of Germany. The Palace prebuild can switch to ToE soon. Defences are a little light on – some horses could be upgraded to knights ? We have six more universities online within 5 turns, and some more banks to help cash flow. We need to start showering gifts around as well so that everyone loves us. Oh yes - embassies and ROPs with everyone too may be useful I think.

General Peglegasus ... front and centre please ... and best of luck …The 850AD Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_AD0850_01.SAV)

Peanut: Sounds like a great set of Turns!! We're IA, we got the two free Techs that best help us, and our GA has started.

Unfortunately, I can't load the save file; looks like I'll have to update my C3C loaded PTW 1.27f with the GOTM add-ons. (I'll have to do that for future 'Classic' GOTM's anyway)

I have no doubt we can build TofE before the AI does. Question is: When to build it? If we build it right away, we will give the AI no time to learn any Techs for us, except maybe ReplParts. If we want to go that route, we should get Steam Power and Electriciy into the AI's hands ASAP, then learn Scientific Method and built TofE with Leipzig.

I think Leipzig is qualified to build Hoover's Dam, also (River and Mountains within city radius). So, we could research Electricity, trade/gift Steam Power and Electricity to the AI, continue our Research (GA Assisted) to Scientific Method, Atomic Theory and Electronics, then finish Hoover's Dam right away. I prefer this to building lots of factories. (Man, I've got to get those packs loaded, so I can check this out!)

Anyway, if we can build TofE at the end if the IA, we can choose Fission as one of the Techs we get, and take any aspect of Luck out of that occurance.

Key thing is: we want the AI to have Universal Suffrage as a pre-build (but not be able to finish it), then we gift them into the ModAge, gift them Fission, then we finish UnivSuffrage before them, forcing them to cascade to UN (or Manhattan Project, so we need at least TWO AI pre-builds going for this to have a shot). And we have to have our own pre-build, Hoover assisted, ready to finish UnivSuff when the time is right. What do you say about that!

OK, I copied my Worker Modern Times and Settler Modern Times folders from my old 1.21 install, and I could load the save.

16 Turns left before Leipzig finishes Palace, so 2 turns for Electricity, 4 turns for Scientific Method, say 5 Turns for Atomic Theory and Electronics each is exactly 16 turns, so Hoover's is doable with Leipzig (although I'd probably suggest slowing the build down to 17 or 18 turns if you want to do this.)

Checking the scores: Tean Kuningas has finished in 980 AD. If they did Diplo, well there's no way we'll be done in 13 turns! (Edit - they posted a Domination win in the Discussion Thread. Makes sense: 980 would be an awesome Diplo win normally, and practically impossible if the AI has to build the UN!)

There are 5 AI pre-builds each for Sistine Chapel and Leonardo's Workshop. Not sure how many shields are built up, but one of these pre-builds might be our future UN site. Need to do Investigate City to see, and we'll need more money for that.

Joan is pissed off; honestly, we need to be gifting Luxuries to every AI. Don't worry about what you might trade them for, just get a Luxury going into each AI's hands, and especially to Joan. This is our best guarantee that we won't be attacked. (It's not fool proof, but it's pretty good.)

Current Roster Status:

bigchief
civ_steve
Keith Larson
Peanut -- Just Played
Peglegasus <--- UP!!
planetfall

Peglegasus, it's been about 24 hours. You need to post a "Got It" or pass.

sorry... got it!

FYI-- I don't know how to play for diplo victory. I just tried a game and it was down to 3 civs, 2 at war with china, and still no votes.

Thus, when it is my turn be sure to give me advice beforehand.

Thanks

PF

played my turns but no time to post log at the moment... will try soon.

EDIT: WHOA! just realized something I nearly messed up... whoever plays next will have to fix this. Atomic Theory arrives in 2 turns and our palace prebuild completes in 4. I was mistakenly thinking that Hoovers would then be ready but NO! We need electronics first! So Liepzig will need some entertainers to DELAY the palace build.

Berlin will complete WAll Street in 4 turns. Moscow is building Theory of Evolution but I wasn't intending to complete it there... just using it as a prebuild for a factory or something else. Can switch to palace after we build Hoover's in Liepzig.

Lots and lots of workers! And a few more to come. The majority of our cities are connected by rails and workers can now focus on railing everything else and further improving the land.

save:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_AD0950_01.SAV

here is my turn log.

1) 860 AD Wow! Our empire sure looks different from the last time I had a good look. Very cool.

Joan is annoyed. We give her incense and she is now polite. We give spices to Liz and she is now gracious. Catherine gets her first shipment of ivory but is still furious. Workers working, etc.

2) 870 AD We renew our ROP with England and give them astronomy to boot. I slow down Liepzig's production a little as suggested (but not enough... remember whoever plays next: DELAY THE PALACE! ) We learn the secrets of electricity and are researching scientific method on 4. We give Liz all the techs she needs top get herself a new outfit. Ghandi gets magnetism from us. He is polite. Mao gets metallurgy, magnetism and theory of gravity. He is polite as well. Joan receives metallurgy and magnetism and is now polite. She DOES have units entering our territory though. I will not say anything about them but I WILL upgrade three horsemen to knights, just in case.

3) 880 AD Our palace expands dramatically! I wonder if people have just been hitting enter when the palace pops up because I added 5 components! Most I've ever added is 2 in one go. Upgrade 2 more knights.

4) 890 AD The French complete Magellan's. We gift steam power all around. Bremen founded. English longbow attacks a french spearman inside our territory and suffers a humiliating defeat! French super spearman then moves out of our territory.

5) 900 AD Berlin begins Sistine Chapel as a prebuild for something or other. Should be able to pop a factory or something with it soon. Gift medicine and electricity all around.

6) 910 AD Scientific method researched. Atomic Theory in 6.

7) 920 AD Joan asks for alliance vs the English and a ROP. We agree to ROP but not alliance. Paris completes Sistine Chapel. The French are now building Bach's Cathedral. Berlin switches to Wall Street in 7. New Salzburg founded in jungle to the NE, on the coast. New Dortmund founded right next to Dortmund :p in mountain area to the NE. New Brandenburg founded on east shore of Lake Barbarino. We trade saltpeter to Joan for music theory. Gift music theory to Liz, saltpeter to Catherine, music theory to china and india. We also establish embassies with the remaining civs.

8) 930 AD Bremen build warrior! :crazyeye: DOH! Forgot to assign something to build when I founded it.

9) 940 AD Gift coal to Japan. Gift incense and horses to Catherine, along with some spices. We finally get her to annoyed instead of furious.

10) 950 AD Watch those workers go! All of our main cities are connected by rail and a good portion of the terrain around Berlin,Liepzig, and Moscow are fully railed. workers now railing everything else and improving tiles.

All right here's the deal: Remember to switch that build in moscow before theory of evolution is completed. we don't want it quite yet. Once we get Hoover's in place and a factory up some place, Theory of Evolution will be completed very quickly right when we need it. (I hope ;) ) We get atomic theory in 2 turns but it can be pushed to 1 I think. Probably should fix that before you start the turns. And most importantly: Delay the palace build in Liepzig! ok I think I've said that enough times now. I very nearly messed that up. I was thinking about the game while doing dishes after playing my turns when it hit me- We have another tech to research after atomic theory before we can build Hoover's! So I went back and looked at the save. Glad I did.

No problem on the delays, will do. Won't grab until tomorrow.

Until then, any suggestions about play in the next 10 turns re:

1. trades to work on
2. techs to trade
3. luxuries to trade

I'll pull the game tomorrow evening and read your articles before playing.

PF

Ok, figured out why diplomacy didn't work in sample game.

Japan was not just furious, but very very furious, Score of 45. There is no way in that sample game to reverse trend. But I should learn for this game. If I replayed from much much earlier, could have reversed with score of -7 which is gracious. It looks like for UN victory we need a score with each civ of less than 0. -10 is gracious. FYI furious is greater than 11.

Here's the dliplo events that killed me:
1. razed that civ's city [12 points each]
2. used nuke [ return fire is counted the same as first strike], 16 pts
3. disbanded civ's worker, 1 pt EACH
4. starved civ's citizen, 1 pt EACH
5. razed other civ's city, 1 pt each

other events that did not help
6. gifts degrade 10gpt
7. multiple gifts don't count more
8. cap of -15 for enemy action
9. killing enemy units degrades with time
10. power lead cuts positive effects in 1/2
11. accepting a flipped city [1pt]
12. AI shunned govt [ 4 pts]
13. used nuke on that civ [ extra 16 points]

Unknown if nukes is per incident or not.

I'm not going to replay as PTW is boring boring and frustrating after the more options available in C3C.

PF

I am thinking of this:

1. changing Berlin to TOE, in 12 turns
2. keep 05leipzip as palace, nothing to switch to, best is to either delay for Hoover or use as prebuild for USuff. Leaning to USuff.
What do you want: Hoover or USuff prebuild?
3. Shame we are researching atomic theory. For next player will have to decide what else to use ToE for: Electronics && ??

Interesting, I have never played a game with these many luxuries this early in game and such a weak weak military. interesting.'

PF

In that last set of turns I was trying to follow what civ_steve had suggested here:


I think Leipzig is qualified to build Hoover's Dam, also (River and Mountains within city radius). So, we could research Electricity, trade/gift Steam Power and Electricity to the AI, continue our Research (GA Assisted) to Scientific Method, Atomic Theory and Electronics, then finish Hoover's Dam right away. I prefer this to building lots of factories. (Man, I've got to get those packs loaded, so I can check this out!)

Anyway, if we can build TofE at the end if the IA, we can choose Fission as one of the Techs we get, and take any aspect of Luck out of that occurance.

Key thing is: we want the AI to have Universal Suffrage as a pre-build (but not be able to finish it), then we gift them into the ModAge, gift them Fission, then we finish UnivSuffrage before them, forcing them to cascade to UN (or Manhattan Project, so we need at least TWO AI pre-builds going for this to have a shot). And we have to have our own pre-build, Hoover assisted, ready to finish UnivSuff when the time is right. What do you say about that!

I think it sounds like a good plan. So... we need to wait a little before completeing theory of evolution. we are researching atomic theory right now and electronics should be next in line. I think we can foresee the AI researching nationalism and industrialization in the immediate future. At least that is what I hope they are researching. If they are all researching scientific method then... well I don't know! We should NOT gift them scientific method, correct? Not until we are ready to finish TofE. We may be forced to finish Tof E early though if the AI researches it and trades around.

Much earlier in the game there was a discussion about the "diplo-dogpile" strategy. I really don't think that it will be necessary in this game. In fact I think it's terribly risky in our situation. (was this already discussed? maybe I missed it...) We are postitioned really well. Once some of our 20 turn trades and ROP's expire and we make new ones the AI should really warm up to us. We have lots of resources to trade as well as luxuries and techs of course. The tricky part for us now is timing things so we get as early a win as possible. I got a diplo win in gotm 31 after failing to build the UN in time so I know we can do this. Carthage beat me by just a few turns. The only problem was that they didn't hold the vote right after they built it. It was 50 years or so later that the vote was finally held. So I hope whoever builds it in our game goes ahead with the vote right away.

wow, tricky. I need to review this idea carefully before start play.

Any ideas why CS doesn't like factories?

PF

The only problem was that they didn't hold the vote right after they built it. It was 50 years or so later that the vote was finally held. So I hope whoever builds it in our game goes ahead with the vote right away.

This is a big problem. We can't afford to wait until a vote is called. I have played games where a vote was never called after an AI civ built the UN. In order for us to win the competition for the variant, we will have to take the UN as soon as possible after it is built. We declare war on the civ that builds it as soon as we can postion troops to strike. Then, if we want to insure victory, we immediately get every other civ allied against our enemy (diplo dogpile). A civ will never vote for another civ if they are at war with them. That's why it's important to do this, and not just because it swings the vote in our favor. We may not need help with the vote, but it will also prevent the civ we are at war with from getting the other civs to ally against us. If that were to happen, there would be no way we can win.

Thanks bigchief. So to win it's not necessary to use the dogpile, but to be certain we win as soon as possible it's better to use that tactic. Got it. So the only problem I can see now is if the UN is built on the other continent. Most of the cities over there are fairly accessible from the coast in just a couple turns except for some of China's inland cities. Best case scenario is if one of our neighbors builds it. Aha, thought of something else. If we declare on a civ that we have a ROP with will that be a problem? We currently have ROP's with England and France. Maybe we shouldn't renew when we get closer to UN time.

When do we need to start building our assault force? Should we build a few ships now too in case we need them?

pf - I actually LOVE factories! I suggested not researching Industrialism as a way to let the AI help us; it's one of the handful of required Techs that they might be able to research for us while we learn other required Techs. And it will be that much more powerful once we have Hoover's Dam; every Factory built will immediately double our shields due to Hoover's already being in place.

None of the AI has Scientific Method yet, and there are only 2 cities building Wonders, so there's not much chance of a cascade.

05r1Leipzig will FINISH the palace in 5 turns; we have to delay production to at least 8 turns to save our pre-build for Hoover's. (It might have to be 9 unless PF is comfortable using the "Show Me the Big Picture" process to switch 05r1Leipzig's production as soon as we learn Electronics.) Here's a picture of 05r1Leipzig's production if the Hills/Mountains are not being used, and a citizen is switched to a 0 shield grassland. Palace is delayed until 10 turns from now; more citizens can be added back to shield production as soon as we know how long Electronics will take to research.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sg2_ad950LeipRes.JPG

Wonder Management will be critical to obtaining a good score for the variant. There's only 3 Great Wonders in the IA: UnivSuff, TofE and Hoover's. We want at least 2 AI cities to have pre-builds for one of those Wonders as we enter the ModAge, and we need a big pre-build also; that way we learn Fission, gift our target AI's into the Modern Age and give Fission, finish the last IA Wonder with our pre-build and force them to cascade to UN or Manhattan Project. With Investigate City function we know exactly when they will finish allowing us to get our army ready to invade. As they finish we declare, get all other AI's allied with us, take the UN in a few turns and call for a vote. Whoever the 2nd person is, they're either the UN builder (best case) or allied with us against the UN builder; everyone else is also allied with us, so that alliance plus all the gifts we've been giving should get us the Diplo win.

So which Wonder? Definitely not TofE; we need the 2 free Techs. And I'd much rather have Hoover's earlier than later. That leaves UnivSuff. I checked the F7 screen; only 2 cities (Edo and Paris) are currently building Wonders, so unless more AI start building JSBach's, those 2 are our only candidates. We're still a ways off, however. As it stands, we're going to have to finish JSBach's, and any other MidAge wonder the AI might build, so we will need several pre-builds going. Hoover assisted factories should help out.

Check out the F1 screen Here:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sg2_ad950F1Res.JPG
We can change our income from -70ish gpt (currently) to +120ish gpt by changing the Research % from 80 to 60. Atomic Theory is still researched in 2 turns, and we have about 380 more gold in our pockets! F1 should be checked often to see if more gold can be earned; I usually check 2 or 3 turns before learning a Tech, then again with 1 turn left.

Let's see: we're being way too nice to Russia! Don't gift her anything or trade her anything. She really can't hurt us, stuck in Tundra the way she is, and I'd suggest we take her out once we see if we need her ModAge free Tech or not. I'm pretty sure she wont vote for us, so we need her to disappear right before the vote.

We definitely don't want to take sides in the French/English war that's still going on. France is taking out her frustrations on England, and has the upper hand. Right now France is likely to be the person who builds the UN for us; this is fine, people will be pissed off at her more than us, and she is readily available (no landings required!) Stay away from MPP's at this stage, and watch it with the ROP's. I don't think they help us that much diplomaticly, we're not off exploring other AI lands to take advantage of this, and I don't want to leave a "Welcome" sign out for the AI. China and Inda are currently not receiving any Luxuries from us; they should get some immediately to keep them happy.

Now, we do need to build up our military. And I think our worker count (> 140) is generally sufficient. I'd keep building Workers in the Fringe areas and leave our central core cities as they are, the bigger the better (up to 12; we shouldn't need Sanitation for this game so don't research it). O3r1Hamburg is size 3! This is a core city with a bank and university; it should never drop below 11. 01r2Frankfurt is building a Worker at size 10; this is a pretty productive city; maybe shift it into building JSBach's, as a pre-build for a Factory. Or build a Barracks and start producing Knights. When Tanks come around we can start building them; in the meantime, let's build up our Knight(later Cavalry) force. I'd upgrade all our Horsemen to Knights pretty soon; maybe not at once but as time and gold permits. Some of the more improved cities should start storing Shields for a future Factory, timed to a future Industrialism research. And focus our worker force into improving the interior; the fringe cities just need a couple spaces cleared and railroad's connecting them. We need all Jungles cleared in the interior, Forest's chopped, and definitely need mines,roads and railroads on many more Hills and Mountains at the core.

Research path: finish Atomic Theory in 2 turns; Research Electronics as fast as possible (keeping Treasury roughly the same); build Hoover's in 05r1Leipzig shortly after Electronics is finished; start on Radio. That should finish our GA. After Radio, we will have no other option but Industrialism. The AI know Steam Power, Electronics and Medicine; they are probably researching Nationalism right now, but there's a chance we might get help with Industrialism. If not, we can research up the Industrialism, Corporation, Refining, Steel, Combustion, Flight path, and give the AI a chance to research ReplParts for us.

I know this is long; I hope I make some sense. I've got a lot of things in my mind regarding this game and I'm not sure how much needs to be posted and how much is pretty much understood. What do you guys thing?

... Aha, thought of something else. If we declare on a civ that we have a ROP with will that be a problem? We currently have ROP's with England and France. Maybe we shouldn't renew when we get closer to UN time.

When do we need to start building our assault force? Should we build a few ships now too in case we need them?

All good points, Peglegasus! Luxuries are also a 20 turn deal; we will have to shut down Luxury deals with potential UN builders before they finish. And like I said above, ROP's buy us very little now; I only signed the one with England so our Workers could finish the road connection to London. I wouldn't renew any ROP deals at this point, and I wouldn't plan on any ROP rape for taking the UN; that would be disasterous for world opinion!

The AI will be absolutely no help to us research wise at a certain point. At that time we can make 1 set (maybe 2 sets) of deals to take every spare gpt from them while we finish out the research in the IA. This will give us the money to rush Galleons/Transports if necessary, so we can develop a Navy pretty quickly. We can also use the cash to periodically monitor the Wonder development of potential UN builders; if a far-off civ appears to be the likely candidate, we can sign a ROP with a neighbor and pre-position forces in advance while everyone's peaceful. UnivSuff takes 800 shields and UN requires 1000, so there's at least 7-10 turns after researching Fission before the UN will be built. That gives us some more time to build Tanks (learned right at the end of the IA) and position them. And we should have a pretty buff set of Cavalry by that time (assuming the AI researches MilTrad by then; pretty likely.)

I know this is long; I hope I make some sense. I've got a lot of things in my mind regarding this game and I'm not sure how much needs to be posted and how much is pretty much understood. What do you guys thing?
CS (and others) - post as much of your reasoning as you can. I am learning much from your opinions and musings and I am sure others are as well. That's one of the benfits of a succession game.

On Leipzig - we should probably cut the food as well so that growth doesn't happen as fast. Sometines I have had the AI redistribute citizens in a city I was delaying and fouled up my timing by getting everyone working again. Any experiences / comments on this, anybody ?

Peanut: make sure the Governor isn't turned on; that's the primary way that citizens get reassigned. Also, if pollution hits a square being worked, the Governor will reassign that citizen to another or make it a specialist. This may start happening to us once we get Factories built.

It's a good idea to restrict growth in Leipzig. If it grew and worked one of the hills, it would speed up production at a time when we're trying to control it.

CS - I think it happened when I had to cut production to such an extent that food ran out. When one citizen starved, the AI put everyone back to work even though the governors were off, giving me an unwanted jump in production. I ended up with a Palace one turn before I could switch production. No combination could avoid this - the AI was determined to reassign everyone in the city from scratch as a memorial to the dead citizen.

If we can juggle assignments to minimise production yet avoid starvation and delay growth then we should be OK.

Peanut: Good point! Starving isn't good and gives the Governor an opportunity to reassign.

planetfall: you should be playing the turn sometime in the next day. Do you have any questions or comments?

Hark ! I hear the clock ticking ... how's it going, General Planetfall ?

Peanut,

Mom went to hospital yesterday. Goodbye time. I'll play tonight.

If you feel we're too far behind and need to player faster. I can skip this turn and play next time.
If I don't see a post, I'll play tonight.

PF

planetfall: I'm very sorry to hear that. :( I hope you are doing OK. There must be a million things you have to do other than playing this game. If you wish to play a turn now, that's fine; if you'd rather postpone your turn until things have stabilized a bit in your part of the world, that's fine, too. Please let us know.

CS,

Thanks. I expect to hear from my sister tonight. We don't know what her situation will be.
They're all in the Sac area.

If stable, I'll play just for the distraction. If not, I'll skip.

Could you give me a quick cheat list of your strategy as I don't want to mess up researching?

Thanks

PF

Sure. I can't pull up the game right now so I'm going somewhat from memory. If it doesn't make sense when you look at the game, I probably messed it up.

Stuff to do right away (soon as you open the game):
-- in F1 screen, reduce Science to 60%; this should still research Atomic Theory in 2, but increases Gold income a whole bunch;
-- in core city Leipzig, remove citizens who are working the Hills and Mountains; place them in Grassland, but keep city so it doesn't starve or grow; we want to hold the Palace pre-build for Hoover's dam and it's so productive now that we have to reduce production
-- I would change any core city that's building Worker to something else; core Hamburg and core Frankfurt especially; I'd only build Workers in the core city when the food bin is full and it can't grow anymore; we need these citizens to research and pay taxes to us; core cities that have Banks and Universities should build Barracks and Knights, or store shields for a factory

Research: finish Atomic Theory (2 turns), start on Electronics (5 or 6 turns once you move the Science slider back up; try to maintain or slightly decrease the treasury); After Electronics, switch core Leipzig to Hoover's Dam immediately and finish it; start research on Radio

Tech Trades: We are looking to get Industrialism or Replaceable Parts from the AI; anything else (even Nationalism) is fairly unimportant; we own Scientific Method uniquely, and for now I'd prefer to keep it to ourself; if Industrialism becomes available, we have to trade for it before we start researching it (after Radio), hopefully Scientific Method will be enough; if Replaceable Parts becomes available, we can wait to get it for now.

Builds: core cities should add Universities, then Banks; after that, Barracks (if needed) and Knights, or pre-build for factories; Temples and Cathedrals are not needed; we wont need Hospitals either, so don't worry about Sanitation

Military: gradually upgrade Horses to Knights as Treasury permits (try to keep maybe 100-200 gold in Treasury)

Trades: we have to keep our incoming Luxuries flowing; when the deals expire (not sure if it will be in the next 10 turns or not), we will have to trade a Tech (Scientific Method, as of now) to keep the Luxuries; make sure to trade it with every civ we are getting Luxuries from; I think Japan is providing 2 or more, so trade there first (Scientific Method will have the most value when we first trade it).

Outgoing deals: make sure everyone is getting a Luxury or Resource from us (except Russia); I think 2 civs on the other continent were not getting something from us, we want to keep them as friendly as possible; in general, gift the Luxury away, this makes them happier with us and increases their research potential, which we want to take advantage of; Luxuries make great gift deals for both of those reasons

Other diplomacy: don't take sides in any war, stay out of them, do not sign any MPPs, let ROPs we now have lapse.

Russia: we are giving her too much; as the deals come up for renewal, cut her off; she can't hurt us (from her 1 tundra city), and we want to finish her off before the UN vote anyway, so don't make it any more difficult; but don't finish her off before we see if we need her free ModEra Tech or not.

That's most of it. Take care of yourself.

Planetfall, take care, mate. I feel for you. Hopefully a few turns of civ3 will take your mind of things for a bit.

Planetfall : Sorry to hear your news - our thoughts are with you in your stress and uncertainty. Take care.

If you can and want to play your round then go ahead. Don't hesitate to skip either - whatever you want - no pressure from us. We will wait patiently.

Well I learned if you don't trade for 2 techs between turns the luxs may not be there when your turn comes around. Did ok except for War and less luxs.'

Here's the Log:


_T0_ 950ad
Changed 05Leigzip to palace in 12
01 Berlin, moved one citz to working mount, gain 2s,4beakers
Minsk to courthouse, losing 5s and 13 commerce
Smolensk, moved on citz, growth in 6 instead of 8
13Bonn moved citz so court in 8 instead of 12
Hamburg, moved citz so univ in 1 instead of 2
Cut research back to 6 so net gain


_T1_ 960 ad
China wanted to trade WM, decline
Minsk built courthouse, start bank. Gained 1s and 2 commerce
Odessa build market, start court
Working on the railroad all the live long day, just a working on the RR

_T2_ 970ad
Got atomic theory, Start electronics in 7. keep positive as trade coming
No trade, still a workin' on the RR.

_T3_ 980ad
Lost 3 luxuries between turns,decided to wait to turn.
Opps, Japan now only has 2 lux. Trade spice and 395g for wines.
Trade SciMetho to Japan for Wine and 32gpt
Trade SciMeth to China for 13g, WM,Tp. GPT not available.
Trade SciMth to India for 46g, 28gpt, TM,WM.
Trade SciMeth to Fr for 2g, 39gpt, TM,WM.
Trade SciMeth to Eng for 20g, TM, Wm
Trade SciMeth to Russia for 30g, 4gpt, WM.
With trade electronics in 5 now instead of 6.
Did I mention we're working on the RR again? Still at 91% happy.

_T4_ 990ad
Wall Street. Elso, ditto, ditto.

_t5_ 1000ad
upped 05Leipzip production.Happy dropped to 89%.

_t6_ 1010ad
Renew RoP with Russia.

_t7_ 1020ad
Got Electronics.
Gave away incense to Japan for 32g, WM,TM as 2 warriors by city.
Hoover in 05Leipzip wastes 181s, TS.

_T8_ 1030a
Trade with Japan, their dyes for spice,ivory and 515g.
NOGO, Japs declared war anyway. What a waste.
Hoover Dam. Hurried sword, only 26 gold left. Radio in 5 now.

_T9_ 1040ad
End Ga. Gambled and lost warrior in Konigsberg.

_T10_ 1050ad
Nothing to do. England wanted MA but passed.

Watch sword by Konigsberg, only 1 sword there, Can rush sword in
new Konigsberg next turn. Sword is going towards 2 wordkers.
Because of Japan war, happiness is down to 76%.

Next, better diplopmat.

PF

Here's the save link.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_AD1050_01.sav

PF

OPPS, opps, opps. Missed ToE and built Hoovers by mistake. It looks like it is 14T to ToE with either Berlin or Moscow. India is also building ToE. Bunch are building Bachs, hope none of they cascade wrongly.

my bad. Sorry.

PF

Interested in CS comments on ToE. Maybe this was not an error. It is an error in my normal build order, but CS had different ideas.

Current Roster Status:

bigchief<--- UP!!
civ_steve
Keith Larson
Peanut
Peglegasus
planetfall -- Just Played

planetfall: No, I think Hoover's is the right build for Leipzig. You have a pre-build for TofE going in Moscow, and we should be able to keep the lead on that build. (Moscow needs to have it's mountains developed, and then some Workers joined to take advantage of the increased production.)

I wasn't sure what happened with Japan in your write-up. So, I played the set of turns on the side.

Turn 3 Trades; I traded Scientific Method to everybody for 2 Luxuries (1 from Japan, 1 from China), and all their treasury gold and WMs. I didn't take any gpt deals. My reasoning is, 1.) I want them to use their commerce to research Techs for me to trade for; and 2.) an AI paying gpt gives them an incentive to declare War (to get out of the trade). Other Trades: I gifted 1 Luxury each to India, Japan and China. My reasoning, they are happier with me with a gift than with a trade, the extra Luxury allows them more commerce for Research, and getting a Luxury is incentive not to declare war.

Turn 7; not sure if it's the same place, but Japan lands 1 Swordsman and 1 Warrior on Northern Tundra city, adjacent to Konigsberg. We have a Warrior there, and a Sword in nearby New Konigsberg (I believe that's its name), which I move to defend Konigsberg. These are unfriendly moves by Japan; to keep the peace I GIFT THE CITY to India (it could have been anybody else except Russia; hmm, England might have been a better choice, since France is beating them up.) Now he can't attack. I rush a Galleon in Dortmund (I believe) and ship 3 Knights over to our remaining city. My reasoning: OK, it was after I read pf's writeup, so I did have some foreknowledge. But really, how important is this city vs a chance to keep Japan honest? I wouldn't do this with a continental city (unless it were really, really remote), but this city on the Tundra is not important enough to hold onto, with the real risk of war erupting.

Turn 8: 515 Gold given away in a trade?!? In the shadow game I'm playing, I didn't bother picking up the dyes when they expired. We have Atomic Theory to trade; if the AI ever researches something we want, AT will get it and the Dyes; in the meantime, we'll only have 6 luxuries which is more than enough to keep our people out of CD at 0% luxury rate.

Turn 10: the Japanese Sword/Warrior are now just outside our cultural radius on the tundra island. I move Knights to block all 3 squares inside my culture, and they decide to sidestep. No war so far.

I also upgraded all the Horsemen to Knights, and built a bunch more; up to 30 Knights in the military at the end of 1050 in my test game. If we don't have a bunch more knights, they need to be built.

bigchief: I'm not at all comfortable having any ROP's with France or England, and having Rails in place. In GOTM24 (Korea), similar situation, the Han took advantage of the ROP to take an undefended city in my interior. We have lots of those. I suggest that no current ROPs get renewed, and that while any are in effect, place a unit on any road or railroad space on our border. That way, they have to attack our unit to use the ROP, and they wont be able to penetrate in without declaring war first. If some AI units try to sidestep our blockers, put more blocking units in place to keep them blocked out.

Research path should be to finish Radio, then start on Industrialism. If we get to trade for Industrialism, use Atomic Theory, and also trade it around for every other Tech out there (MidAge optionals) and any free Luxuries.

AI know Scientific Method; I haven't checked our treasury, but we will need to start doing Investigate City on any city that might be big enough to compete for us finishing it. And there's possible cascade into it from Bach's. Industrialism will give us Factory build capability; with Hoover's completed that will double the production of a city once a Factory is built there, so we'll have to weigh changing a pre-build over to a Factory, or just finish TofE without a Factory.

I've got the save. It will be Sunday before I can play. Suggestions are welcome.

Planetfall, sorry to hear about your situation. Hope things get to looking better.

Planetfall :

Hoovers was a good choice as I think we will get TOE as well, especially if we concentrate on improving Moscow's production. It is pumping 24spt now which can be boosted. I suggest a swarm of workers mining / railing those mountains, and kicking Frankfurt's citizens off the wheat tile so that Moscow can feed the citizens working the mines. We have to keep building ToE anyway - by the time we research Indust, build a factory and rebuild towards ToE we would have finished it anyway.

515g down the s-bend eh ? Ah well, c'est la vie. I too would have tried a little trading to keep Japan honest, but sometimes these AI leaders get a dopey idea like declaring war stuck in their heads and there's no shifting it. But like the real world.

I wouldn't have thought of CS's clever idea of gifting the threatened city - you learn something new all the time in these succession games. Ain't it fun ?

I agree with CS's concerns about ROPs; a blocker on the border rail tiles would be handy.

I've got the save. It will be Sunday before I can play. Suggestions are welcome.


bigchief: my main suggestions and concerns are listed in the last 3 paragraphs of my main post just above. One other note: our core cities should have Library, Marketplace, University, Bank. Then some should build Barracks and Military (Knights); others should start some pre-builds for factories (maybe about 15 turns and we'll have Industrialism for sure). And I'd maintain Moscow's building of TofE. Good Luck!!

Thanks for all the comments and CS thanks for the shadow game. I didn't think of gifting the city. and yes 5XX gold was a big mistake, but I didn't think it would be fair to go back a few turns and replay. I thought the problem was Japan was paying too much gpt and thus the war, but since CS didn't do gpt it looks like something else was triggering the war this time. At least I did NOT enter my normal MPP when war started. There is just one civ at war with us now.

I did think it was too early for me to begin factory prebuilds, but that should be closer now. I did stop worker production because we have so many and most cities are working all the improved tiles. If this was C3C, I would have kept on improving workers. But since it is not C3C, there are severe limitations to handling corruption and waste. The extra workers would look nice but would not significantly improve production. Talking about workers, I found they were scattered. We don't want to do as the AI and improve randomly. Our priority for workers should be:
1. any strategic roadwork. In this game perhaps a road by England, otherwise we are ok.
2. Our ring1 and ring2 cities around Berlin. We should go thru each city and make sure there are no under improved tiles the citizens are workiing.
3. The ring1 cities around FP/Moscow.

Some of these ring cities were missing basic and need to be developed. I started building some barracks as we didn't need temples.

In terms of Japan suggest, loading up galleon with some knights, take them over to island, and remove sword. I would not attempt any attacks on Japan cities. Goal is a stalemate and sue for peace. If in danger of losing cities, gift away ala CS. About halfway thru turn Japan might settle for peace.

I would also let RoP's expire with civs on same continent, it is too hard to protect all cities with those in place. I have see AI on one turn, move troops by weak/undefended cities and suddenly there are pockets of conquered cities.

PF

CS,
I'm anxious for your turn. I hope to be able to follow your example and play a shadow turn to your 10 turns. Maybe I will learn some better moves. It will be interesting to see how BigSteve plays this.

PF

pf - you are totally right about how it would be unfair to go back a few turns; we're competing against several teams and need to follow the rules of conduct for SGOTM. I played the shadow set of turns knowing how your outcome came out; I was mainly interested in seeing if war with Japan was inevitable or preventable. It seems that once his units are within the cultural radius and adjacent to the city, he will likely attack, willing to gamble that he can capture the city. In the turns I played, I gave away the city so he had no opportunity to attack it, and I moved Knights to block him from the 2nd city, so he's not had the opportunity yet. Still, we play on from the official save.

Once all continental cities are connected by railway, I recommend focusing remaining Workers on core cities. Set some to clear Jungle (6 or 8 per tile), others to road mountains (3 per square), others to Mine hills/mountains (3 or 6 per square) and still others to build more railroad (3 or 6). The higher stacks get the work done faster without wasting Worker moves.

I haven't checked, but more Knights is good.

bigchief is up, and should be playing in a day or so

Here is the save:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_AD1150_01.sav

Turn log shortly.

Turn 0 - Gifted Mao spices. Gifted Gandhi ivory. Gifted Joan incense. Gifted Liz ivory. Changed citizen workers around in 3 towns to get Berlin down to 13 turns for Wonder.

Turn 1 - Russia signs an alliance with Japan against us - Oh No, I'm scared now. Much worker movement. Moved 2 knights to be picked up by boat to go to our island and deal with the foreign menace. Gahndi has learned Nationalism, but he wants too much for it.

Turn 2 - france and England sign peace. France is building ToE. Japan moves frigate near our island. Galleon with 2 knights headed to island. Many worker moves.

Turn 3 - Not much. Mao & Joan now know Nationalism. We can trade AT for it, but I hold off hoping for Industrialization and maybe a 2 for.

Turn 4 - Workers near Moscow have finished mines and railroads. ToE now in 7 turns. Our knights have arrived on our island. One knight kill Japanese sword. The other one captures Russian worker.

Turn 5 - We learn Radio. China is building ToE. Russia sends longbow to attack on of our knights. We win. Nobody knows industrialization. Japan still will not talk.

Turn 6 - Japan asks for peace straight up. We agree. He is back to polite. Many of our good cities, including our wonder cities, go into disorder. They were happy at the end of the last turn. Must have been the peace - Damn Warmongers!! Trade India AT for Nationalism, 80 Gpt, 120 gold, WM & TM. Trade Japan AT for Wines, Dyes, WM & TM. Gifted Japan spices. Gave Catherine peace for peace, 40 Gold, WM & TM.

Turn 7 - Railroads & Jungles

Turn 8 - More of the same.

Turn 9 - We learn Industrialization - The Corportation in 4. Lots of worker moves. Changed production to factories in some of our core cities.

Turn 10 - Nothing but worker moves.

Notes: We have 1577 gold. + 212 GPT. Corportation in 3. ToE in 2. Bach's in 4. It looks like the AI civs are going to be no help with researching. They are worthless. In retrospect, we probably should have taken our whole continent. The score boost from the extra land would have been much better than their contributions to our research. We probably should use some of the gold to investigate the other civs. If we can get away with it, we should swap Bach's and ToE. That way we will finish The Corporation, and can get the next 2 techs free from ToE. Or, we can shut off research now and take The Corporation as a freebie. Otherwise, we get The Corporation for free with 1 turn left to research it. I built several knights and a few more workers. Oh yeah, we have no more active RoP deals.

good commentary and great set of turns bigchief! I've got the save; I plan to do some investigation and report back; plan to play tomorrow

BigChief,

Good log and turns. I thought Japan would settle once there were more than 2 warriors on the island. Looking to see what the cleanup batter does with your setup.

PF

OK, I spent about 600 gold to investigate several cities; Here are the results:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/PEANUT_sg2_ad1150_chart_crop.JPG

No one is really challenging us currently; Paris is pretty close at 9 turns to complete JS Bach's. Can we use Paris' pre-build for UN?

We have 3 turns to complete Corporation. After that are 8 more Techs (Refining, Steel, Combustion, Flight, ReplParts, MassProd, MotorTransp and Fission). At best, 4 turns each so a minimum of 35 Turns before we have capability to build UN. Take off 8 turns for TofE being build, and we have at least 27 turns to delay Paris from completing a Wonder. If we tumble Paris to UnivSuff (gifting Industrialism and finishing JS Bach's), that buys us (.9)x(800-600)/14 turns or 14 more turns (23 total, adding the 9 turns Paris already needs.)

So we can't use Paris. We could let her finish JSBach's, or finish it first and build it ourself and force her to drop the shields. We'll also lose Delhi, which was decently placed for build time. However, of the cities I didn't investigate, Kyoto has tons of grassland and can generate maybe only 15 shields before Waste calculations, but Orleans and Canton are +20 shield generators. I think one of these 2 cities is likely to be our final UN builder; they could have as much as 200 shields stored, putting them as close as 17 turns to complete TofE, and 26 turns to UnivSuff (hopefully more like 28 or so).

My current plans are to switch Berlin and Moscow_FP builds, complete JSBachs in two, and delay TofE until 7 turns (just after we learn Refining). This gives the AI some time to complete ReplParts (although, not too likely at this point) but doesn't put our completion of it at much risk (someone would need a GL to beat us). After finishing JSBach's, Moscow_FP can build Factory in 11, then build UnivSuff in 14, for 27 turns total from this point. At the end of these set of turns we'll see exactly where the various Wonder cities are at, and adjust accordingly.

Quick Update: I decided to Investigate Canton and Orleans. Well, after spending 164 Gold to investigate Canton, they are IronWorks capable, and they built it! So, 11 Turns to finish TofE, and 43 Shields/turn (36 spt after Waste)! Slight change in plans, since this city can build UnivSuff in 20 turns from no pre-build. Still finish JSBach's in 2, and TofE in 7. Blow away all ai pre-builds. Delay trade of Industrialism until we have only 4 Techs left to go. If Canton starts UnivSuff after we trade it to them, then we can still learn up to Fission, and force Canton to UN, I think. If they learn it on their own, or trade with someone else, they will likely finish UnivSuff before we can learn Fission.

Good generalship, Bigchief !

I recommend swapping ToE & Bachs if possible seeing as we will have almost finished The Corp. Delaying the Indust trade sounds like a good plan CS.

Slight change of plans; I decided to build TofE in 3 turns and JS Bach's in 4, just to get those pre-builds out of the AI's hands. They might have researched Industrialism and build UnivSuff too soon; not the case as it turns out.

Here's the turnlog:

Turn 0, 1150 AD
Pre-turn stuff; did the Investigate Cities; start Galleon pre-builds for Transports on East Coast
Slowed TofE down to 3 turns (complete just after learning Corporation
Rushed a few builds in outlying cities, to go back to building Workers; size6 outer cities get Taxmen
Upgrade 5 Horsemen to Knights; down to 59 Treasury at +177/turn (oops, just remembered Wall Street)

Turn 1, 1160 AD
Lots of Worker Actions; 25 Knights are in our army; Letting Treasury build back to 1000 gold
Research reduced to 50%; still 2 turns to Corp, but now +261 Gold/Turn

Turn 2, 1170 AD
1 Turn to Corporation; Japan and France now Know MilTrad
(Gee, it's too bad we have 3 Saltpeter and France has 0!)

Turn 3, 1180 AD
Liverpool finally flips to us; no more English culture within our German blue
Learn Corporation
Build TofE, gaining Refining and Steel; start on Combustion (5 turns at 70% and +38 gpt)
Trade Atomic Theory to China for MilTradition and Silks (which just expired)
We have one source of Oil, adjacent to Rheims

Turn 4, 1190 AD
JS Bach's completed; none of the AI have Industrialism, so all pre-build should go bye-bye
Most inner cities are building Factories

Turn 5, 1200 AD
All quiet on the Western Front

Turn 6, 1210 AD
First Cav is made;
Stuttgart builds Settler, forms Berlin2 to allow Ship Movement from Ocean to Inner Sea

Turn 7, 1220 AD
Reduce Research to 60%; Combustion in 1

Turn 8, 1230 AD
Learn Combustion, start on Flight, 80%, 1086 Treasury, -43 gpt
Leipzig finishes First Factory; 2 Turn Riflemen for now;
Join Workers to core Konigsberg and Heidelberg to finish Factories Faster
Some minor Adjusting to Maximize some cities; tough with all these Hills and Mountains

Turn 9, 1240 AD
Nuremburg completes factory; more 2 turn Riflemen on the way (Infantry wanna-be's)

Turn 10, 1250 AD
Hamburg and Novgorod finish their Factories (still more 2 turn Riflemen)
Core Stuttgart finishes another Settler; off to East coast to help our Transport fleet get started
Load Cav onto Galleon, send off to Tundra Island (to be Catherine's "Honor Guard" when the time comes)
Reduce Research to 70%; Flight still in3, Treasury 1004 with +77 gpt

Fairly uneventful. We have 3 turns left to finish Flight. I'd check every turn to see if by some miracle Replaceable Parts is learned by someone; if so, trade Industrialism (and Electronics if necessary) to get it, and be sure everyone Knows Industrialsm. If no one else learns it, then our Tech path is: finish Flight, ReplaceableParts, MassProduction and MotorizedTransport, maintaining as close to 4 turn research as possible while maintaining current Treasury levels (or maybe a small decline).

One of the random unknowns is whether we can get Fission as a Free Tech, either ours or by Elizabeth. I currently played cautiously and assumed we'll have to research it ourselves. Since it's a Modern Age Tech, I'm assuming about 8 turns to learn it. Add 4 turns for Mass Production and Motorized Transport equals 16 turns. Canton can possibly build UnivSuffrage in 20 turns, so I was thinking about getting Industrialism into the AI's hands when we have 2 turns left to research ReplParts (assuming we can't trade for it), that is 18 turns with 2 turns as leeway. If we want to play aggessively, we can assume that Fission will be one of the free Techs gained, and trade Industrialism around now.

Novgorod can build UnivSuffrage in 13 Turns, so about the time MassProduction is learned, it can be set to build that (or earlier, using Palace as a pre-build). We want to finish UnivSuffrage ourselves AFTER we've learned Fission and gifted/traded it around. That way we'll force all AI pre-builds to UN or perhaps Manhattan project, but we'll get a jump on getting UN build this way.

I'm still assuming Canton will win the race to the UN. They are only 2 turns in from the Indian border, so after we check to see if they will build it first, we can at some time sign a ROP with India, rush a bunch of transports along the Eastern coast, and place a big SOD in India, ready to take Canton when the time is right. With all the Factories we'll have, we should be able to stick about 20 Tanks there. My musings for now.

If the AI doesn't research ReplParts for us, we can then trade Techs for every gpt we can get. One thing to look out for; about the time MassProduction is learned we need to see who is likely to build UN, and stop signing ANY 20 turn deals with them.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Peanut_SG002_AD1250_01.sav (Here's the 1250 AD Save!!)

bigchief
civ_steve --- Just Played
Keith Larson <---- UP!!!
Peanut
Peglegasus
planetfall

CS,

It all looks good to me. Only one question: why ToE for Steel and Refining?

My normal choice would have been Radio [think more expensive] and Refining [ to see oil].

PF