Those look like some good turns! And by the way - we will not be calling the AI "AU". My alma mater is "AU" thanyouverymuch. :p

Gengis and I have invited "Mistfit" to join in. We may or may not fiddle with the order-of-go when/if he checks in... but between that and the fact that I'm up in Denyd's insane little german variant ("Master of the Bow"; limiting ourselves to archers, longbows, and panzers) I may not get to this one until tomorrow.

:lol:

Fair enough! AU, eh? Atlanta? Alabama? Albequerque? As a Brit, I have no idea!

As for Mistfit, it'll be good to have him aboard - interesting to see what he makes of our situation...


Tal

By the way, is it just me or does it look like our Firaxis score goes backwards whenever I have my turns?? :hmm:

I just checked out the graph, and it looks... dubious! :dubious:

I just checked out the graph, and it looks... dubious! :dubious:Don't sweat the score. Remember - we're going for the variant. Those little comments Gengis has made about the tech pace? That matters much more than the score.

Remember - the variant is the fastest UN win (without building the UN). Speed, not score, is what matters. We need to research what the AI are not researching and trade techs like mad.

A lot of the teams have done some early warmongering. While it has no doubt helped their score, I strongly suspect they have also slowed down the tech pace. Our approach is more of a 'balance of power' approach.

I strongly suspect some of these teams will not pursue the variant. One in particular is lead by a very strong player who loves domination wins.... but any team that does not pursue the variant is a team we are not competing with.

Some of the teams are planning to capture the UN. I am still not 100% convinced that capturing the UN will be necessary.

I'd be happy to join :D

Just so long as I'm not expected to do as detailed of turn reports as in the TDG :lol: with a empire this size it would be 20 pages on word instead of 9 like my last one.

Edit:So long, Leipzig, and thanks for all the fish...

:lol: one of my favorite book series of all time

Sorry for the double post but will the AI call for a vote if they know we will win? IMHO I think we'll have to capture it to get a vote at all. I'll preface that with the fact that I have a whole lot less experiance than you in these matters

Double post? How do you think I've gotten all mine?;)

No, if the AI doesn't think it has a shot it won't call a vote. I think we'll have to capture it.

Well, I did get the internet hooked at home. (dial-up does indeed suck, T10 line @work). I looked at the last save and below are my initial reactions. You have all prolly noticed all of this stuff but if I bring up one thing that helps well...we are a team(and I expecting as much help as possible before my turns). Please don't take offense to anything I say.
Printing Press can be had one turn earlier for the cost of 16 gold

Look out for Hanover she's 3 happy and 4 unhappy

We are almost out of room for expansion. Shortly I think we should get back to Berlin for jungle/forest chopping. We currently have 6 improved tiles in the city. I presume we will be growing the city after the settler phase. We have something like 3 jungle and 6 forest tiles to contend with there.

I may have missed this in the turn log but is the courthouse in Konigsberg a prebuild?

Oh golly Stuttgart and Dortmund are horrible little towns in oh...1000 years they might just be productive :lol: Lots of Cat's out of those two, right GK? And who says I don't listen well in class.

I like the idea of building a courthouse in Nuremberg...IT seems historically correct.

According to the Military Advisor we have a strong Military vs everyone but the French and the Chinese. I know you don't put to much stock in this guy but I think this should cut down on the extortion.

GNP - MFG Goods-Polution-Annual Income- and Productivity were #1
Approval-Pop-Landmass-Life span-and family were#2
Japan is the only one ahead of us in scoring although they are kicking our butts in culture. Do we worry about them winning that way? I've never lost that way but I don't play monarch.

So as far as I can tell you guys have done very well for yourselves.
I hope I dont screw things up :lol:

Oh and BTW:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Palace.jpg

Lots of good comments and questions there Mistfit. On the cultural loss thing, I've never had one. Just bear in mind, this is a variant - so we will do some things we wouldn't otherwise do.

@Team: do we want to try and get a wonder triggered GA? IIRC, if we build 2 wonder that are scientific (Like Copernicus' and Newton's) that would trigger a GA...

I've got it, and will play today. For the moment, here's the order of go:

Gengis Khan
Tallanas
scoutsout
Mistfit

So Mistfit - this puts you 'on deck'.

SGOTM2 Pre-flight check

...scroll through our cities...

Change Nuremberg to settler so I can build a market in Berlin...

mm a citizen to mined hill in Cologne to get court in 10 instead of 15

As much as I hate clowns, neither a taxman nor a scientist does any good at Hannover.

Stuttgart needs some serious worker turns...

A little mm in Salzburg stunts growth, but shaves 4 turns off market build.

=====
IBT Nuremberg Settler>Market
Bremen Court>Market
The Indians are building Sistine Chapel
French troops move away from New K'burg (I think they were barb hunting)
=====
Turn 1 (360)
What's with this settler down by Heidleberg? I missed that...move him south to claim some Ivory...
New Munich founded on the northern coast
some worker moves...
Diplo check -
France is now up Chivalry and Engineering...and will not trade either.
Russia does not have Iron or Horses. I will be surprised if she survives the Middle Ages.
Nothing else on the trading table...
=====
IBT - A barb pokes his head out in the badlands to the north, and the French move northward again.
Konigsberg Court>Sistine Chapel (Copernicus' Pre-build)
Frankfurt Pike>Pike
=====
Turn 2 (370)
Take science down to 20%, Printing Press in 1.
Joan will trade us either Engineering or Chivalry for contact with Japan and our whole economy. I wait.
whack a barb camp...most of our workers are busy...
=====
IBT - French troops shuffle, we learn Printing press, set queue to....Education at 50%
Berlin Settler>Market
Dortmund Library>Worker
=====
Turn 3 (380)
Lose a warrior trying to kill the barb camp
I buy a French worker for 25g
The best deals I can get from France:
Chivalry for PP+267g
Engineering for PP+398g

I take the Chivalry deal...and there's not a lot of gold to go around. England and Russia lack one or both resources needed for knights, and all three of the civs on the other landmass need chivalry for their GA... this could get ugly. I trade chivalry to Russia and England, for their treasuries.

Organize a forest chop at Nuremberg...

Decision time - we are simply not going to speed up the pace of this game with England and Russia at each other's throats, and France only able to trade techs with us. France will eventually get contact with the other civs...

This is expensive, but I trade contact with Japan, India, and China +100g +5gpt to France for Engineering. Gift Chivalry to India and Japan, take 13g from Mao. Trade world maps around for some more gold.
=====
IBT - French troops shuffle...(thanks to the barb magnet)
=====
Turn 4 (390)
...ahh this movement is nice now that we've got bridges...

I will be danged! Some workers completed a road S-SW of Cologne, and we now have a trade route to Russia and France! Spices to France for WM+40g+4gpt.
=====
IBT - Tal's linebacker just got more important - a French settler pair appears near new K'burg.
=====
Turn 4 (400)
Russia has learned Engineering...England got it through the GL...
The Global Economy:
Germany 179g
India 15g
England 2g
Russia 1g
China and Japan, zero gold.

Sell Engineering to India for a pittance, gift it the rest of the way around the table. Talk about tech parity...
Found New Heidleburg.
=====
IBT - An English settler pair shows up near New K'burg
A Russian pair shows up near that Ivory I was going to claim two turns from now...
=====
Turn 5 (410)
Finish the market in Munich for 120g
Found New Nuremberg in a spot that isn't where I wanted it, but we claim the ivory.
=====
IBT - Munich Market>Settler
New Frankfurt Worker>Library
Cherbourg shows up NW of New K'burg
=====
Turn 6 (420) trying to get some workers organized into stacks here...
Berlin hires a tax collector and gets MM'd to max shields
=====
IBT a dang barb horse pops out of that camp, French troops menace
Stuttgart Library>Worker
Dortmund worker>Court
=====
Turn 7 (430)
I buy a Russian worker for 30g. We're still up PP on everybody but France and England (who got it from GL)
Some worker moves...our Knight (singular, I upgraded a horse) is in the north to play whack-a-barb
=====
IBT - Dang barbs had another horse...
Franfurt Pike>Knight
New Leipzig Library>Worker
=====
Turn 8 (440)
China has PP and is broke. I suspect France sold it to him... dangit.
Some mining has been completed near K'burg, Sistine in 32. We should be able to get Cop's.
New Cologne founded
Knight whacks the barb camp
=====
IBT A Japanese galley shows up off the north coast. Looks like we won't be getting those islands... dangit. I bet that's where the oil is.
New Leipzig worker>Library
Cologne Court>Market
=====
Turn 9 (450)
some worker moves, New Hannover founded, rush the market in Nuremberg so we can get some galleys/settlers to the islands.
=====
IBT - watch an English spear duking it out with some Russian Archers
Nuremberg Market>Galley
Salzburg Market>Worker
=====
Turn 10 (440)
Nothing (and I mean nothing) to trade at the moment.
Some worker moves, get our knight on the road so he can go south, and that's pretty much it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2_scout_NORTH_460.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm2_scout_SOUTH460.jpg

Nice turns Scout... I think you are right about the double wonder GA - that should work out quite nicely, there'll be plenty worth building by the time we manage two science wonders.

I'll have a long look at the situation in the morning...


Tal

Some semi-random thoughts...

At this point I think we need to try and get some settlers on the islands... and possibly look at settling some more jungle to the southeast. I was seriously tempted to switch to a market in New Berlin and rush a market for happiness purposes...we will need to watch that city as it grows.

I'd like Gengis to take a look at this, and see if he has any ideas for speeding up the tech pace.

Though Universities would certainly give us a boost, I don't want to see our military lag too much... we need to build some Knights, because they defend as well as pikes. I'd like to have a couple of knights for each of our southerly border cities, to skirmish in the event of a war.

As this game develops we may see war break out on the other continent. They're getting built out over there, and all 3 of those civs have a UU that comes with Chivalry. We need to maintain an even number of AI (an odd number of civs) so that the UN vote won't be a tie... I have my doubts that Russia can survive this game, and it may make sense to assimilate some Russian cities at some point. We need to get bigger to guarantee a spot on the UN ballot.

As much as I dislike this, we need to keep France in this game. The AI plays France well, and I think the best chance of getting the UN on this continent is if the French build it. If we must capture the UN, it will be easier if it's on our landmass.

Order of go:
Gengis Khan: on deck
Tallanas: warming up
scoutsout: just played
Mistfit: UP!

I have added Mistfit to the team roster.

Thanks Karasu :)

Ok short term goals for the next ten:

Get islands settled

Get universities?

Keep the French from settling to our north

2 more towns settled in the north? to lock that area up?
Possibilities for 2 "filler" cities
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/North.jpg
Anything else

BTW
Nice turns scout!
and thanks Karasu

I wouldn't worry about universities just yet. We've been in "builder mode" for a while now. If a city completes something and it has a barracks, build a knight. If not, a worker...

Well then I guess this is first "I got it" for SGOTM I will not play until late this evening. I have 24 to 48 to get it back? If everything goes well I'll have it back tomorrow. If I have questions I will ask questions tomorrow morning.

@Mistfit: if you can get it played in 48 that would be fine. Check the thread again this evening to see if Gengis offers suggestions... I think having some knights in our southern frontier towns would be a Good Thing, and if we can get some jungles chopped and some roads built for lateral movement between those towns that would also be helpful.

I just went to download the save and the name it comes up with is:
Scout_SG002_AD0350_01 is this correct?

Edit: The graph says 460

Scout_SG002_AD0350_01 is not the right one... let me check...

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php

That page has the right save on it, according to my browser...

I use the links in Mad Bax's sig in the first post...

OK I've got the correct one now.
@Tallanas - any thoughts ?

Well, immediate thoughts are along the same lines as Scout... Get some knights cranked out, just in case we need to defend our southern border or even mop up some of Russia (if Russia looks like falling, we want Moscow :) ); also, get the preparations done for settling the eastern island - galleys (2) and settlers (3) should do the trick.

...on the northern peninsula... where I see a dotmap with 2 stars. I'd just put one town there on the grassland tile 1 West of the warrior (NE of the westerly blue star). That should be enough to keep the AI out, and we don't want 2 corrupt towns up there... Berlin should finish its market soon, and can resume pumping settlers...

Also, the worker in New Cologne is on forest, but wasting 2 shields... Get him back on that floodplain :)

Pumping New Cologne for a worker will get it back into growth mode... I believe I micromanaged it for shields to get the market build going. I should have noted that in more detail in the turnlog. We seem to be having some happiness problems in cities larger than ~7 or 8... we will eventually need to resort to the luxury slider, since we have so many sites with access to fresh water...

Edit: Whoops! That whole discussion about New Cologne applies to Salzburg, not New Cologne...

Well, I'm off to home and will play tonight. I've not seen GK anywhere today, but I'm sure he'd agree with you guys anyway, and I think these should be uneventful turns.

On a side note: 2.0 grams - The Whip and Saddle (C3C) What have you gotten yourself into here...looks like a daunting task ahead of you here Scout.

Heh, yeah, was just checking out that thread... Nasty, nasty situation!

hehehe... On Gram2.0 ...I'm just glad I stopped at 15... 'pelago map my hiney... pooh, feh... that dadgum Gram set me up I think. :crazyeye:

...but 'slinger's in that one... give a game to that guy, and you won't recognize it in 10 turns, I gua-ron-tee. Check out Bede01 if you doubt me...

Incidentally, we may be adding a 5th. Karasu PM'd me earlier that there's a pretty good player who is interested in SGOTM2, so don't be surprised if somebody new de-lurks...

Good we may need one (two Weedy Moments, not game changing, in my turns)

Ok Here it goes.

Pre Turn:
Only England and Russia at war

Switch clown in Berlin to a scientist 3 happy 3 sad Market in 1 then Worker and Settler
Move a sword and a spear out of New Konnensburg to cut off French Sword

Trade Russia our WM for hers she gives 13 gold
Trade England our WM for hers she gives 15 gold
Trade India our WM for his he gives 12 gold
Trade China our WM for his he gives 7 gold (note according to the dork in the upper right hand corner the Chinese army fears our knight...yep all one of them)
Skip Japan no $
Trade France for WM straight up
Hey 47 gold is 47 gold...

Our world looks great (aside from all of this dang jungle) :goodjob:

IBT
French jockey around units
Berlin finishes Market starts worker done in 1
Munich finishes Market starts library done in 10 (we currently have 7 gpt from this town going to science so this should raise that to at least 10, right?)
Stuttgart finishes worker starts on Courthouse done in 40
Leipzig Expands

Turn 1 (470 AD) The first year in the Reign of Baron Von Mistfit :lol:
Workers, working
Our 1 mighty Knight moves south
Archer and Warrior move towards bard camp in SE

France now has Invention with no intentions of selling it (monopoly)
No other trades
Can’t turn down science. 2 until Education (trade bait for Invention?)

IBT
Uh Oh Russians requesting an audience...
She wants a ROP and MA against England...Sure..Not... how about a gift of 1 gold?
Berlin finishes a worker (dang it only takes two to grow Hmm...) starts a settler MM growth in 3 Settler in 3
Bonn finishes Aqueduct starts a Market done in 25
Salzburg finishes a worker (computer wants to start Sun Tzu no thanks) how about a settler cant make MM work right so settle for settler in 6 expand in 5

Turn 2 (480 AD)Workers chopping roading and other as sundry things
Most of my time working on blockading the French (persistent little buggers)
Change Hanover scientist to clown because of coming growth
Turn Down Science to 40% save 38 gold still due in 1
France still has monopoly on Invention. No one else has squat

IBT
Finish Education start on Astronomy science back to 50% due in 11 +8gpt(would have cost 24gold to get it in 10)
Bremen finishes a market starts a settler growth in 7 due in 4
New Leipzig finishes a worker starts another
French Start Leo's
English start Sun Tzu

Turn 3 (490 AD)
Kill a barb horse in the SE
Move around units to stop the French (where are they going?)
France will sell invention for Education, WM and 15 gold now. Ok
Sell Education to/for:
Russia/28g,WM
India/16g,WM
China/11g,WM
England/8g,WM
Japan gets none...I just don't like him and he's broke next turn if he can muster 1 gold
The only reason I did this deal was because I think the idea was to hurry the learning curve across the board to get to the UN. Well this went pretty cheap lets hope they build uni's and don't forget our kindness (we also made 48g)

IBT
Hamburg finishes a knight start another due in 12
New Heidelberg finishes a worker starts a library due in 40

Turn 4 (500 AD)
Finally get down to pop the barb camp in the SE 25g
More dancing with the French
Give in and gift Japan Edu
France hasn't sold Invention to anyone

IBT
Berlin finishes a settler, growth in 2 settler in 4
Heidelberg finishes Market starts worker in 2
Hanover finishes Courthouse starts on Market (at size 8 with 1 clown market in 17 growth in 18) should be able to get rid of clown at that time
Brandenburg finishes a Courthouse starts a Market (watch this one for happiness) (note this for later use) growth in 4

Turn 5 (510 AD)
Teach the French some new dance moves (the Lambada...the forbidden dance)
Move Berlin settler towards Nuremberg where galley is being built

China now has invention
No one has much of anything offer for invention 16 gold from everyone I think

IBT
Here we go again...French want an audience...She wants to trade maps..Sure no prob

Turn 6 (520 AD)
Dangit...Tripped (miss-clicked) while dancing with the French a sword will get thru.
Rush settler in Salzburg for 40g to time growth and completion
Russia now was invention
Dangit Japan now has one gold I should have held out on the trade

IBT
Heidelberg finishes a worker starts a university (This can be vetoed I just wanted to start 1 make sure you change it 1st turn if you want a rax) due in 17
Bremen finishes a settler starts another size 4 growth in 2 settler in 6
Salzburg finish settler start on courthouse in 20

Turn 7 (540 AD)
Yup the one sword got thru...sorry
Move Salzburg settler towards Nuremberg
2nd Knight arrives in a southern town
Bremen settler heads south into jungle
Settler arrives at Nuremberg awaits the galley and other settler

Sell invention to England/23g+WM - India/18+WM - don't trade to Japan 0$ - again

IBT
Leipzig finishes a worker starts a Courthouse done in 40

Turn 8 (540 AD)
I may have contained the loose French Sword
Settler arrives in the north
Settler heads further south into the jungle
Japan has learned Invention (well good for him)
No diplo or trades available (tech parity across the board)

IBT
Yea!!! The French Move south... At least they gave me some excitement this set of turns
Berlin finishes a settler start another? Done in 4 - I don’t know what else to do with this town you guys are going to have to show me the finer points of living in a world without a rax in every town
Nuremberg finishes a galley and starts a courthouse due in 20

Turn 9 (550 AD)
Settler headed for the jungle is where I think he should go but I will leave him for the next person to locate
Berlin settler heads towards W coast galley (new Munich I think) he can get there in 8 the galley wont be done until 11 prolly rush. Watch out for barb galley on that coast
West Coast Galley loaded up with 2 settlers ready to ride to island (in retrospect maybe you guys ment a unit to go with for barbs) oh well you can yell at me later.
Settle New Bremen in the North where we discussed today. Starts on a lib(?)
Move workers around again
No diplo no trades

IBT
The English want to talk again - trade territory maps why sure...
Yea I finish my 2nd knight we now have 3 total - and start on my third in Frankfurt
Munich finishes a Library and starts on a University (so I lied I want to start 2 of em Michigan and Michigan State)

Ya see...I almost made it through with out incident...and then I got lazy and didn't check to see who was happy and who wasn't and this is what I get :blush: (I even mention it in my turn log...this bugs me badly)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Weedy_Move_%231.jpg
My apology to whomever is next. That’s no way to leave a set of turns.
BTW Brandenburg gets a Scientist

Turn 10 (560 AD)
Move workers - move units back towards cities not that the French are moving away
Move galley towards E Island
And so ends the reign of Baron Von Mistfit

Post turn report:

Well besides the last weedy moment there not overly exciting turns...but what the hey at the end of my turns we are again ahead of Japan in score for what that’s worth.

We have a settler in the SE ready to settle if you like the spot
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jungle_settler.jpg
We have one settler headed towards the galley being built on the west side
We have 2 settlers in a galley headed towards the East Island
I can't make many Knights because we have no Rax. You can add one to Heidelberg pre turn if you want another. It's currently on University.
I think out of all of our cities we only have 2 Rax, so I only made Knights out of those. Reg Knights make no sense to me.
Just a side note: The Russian’s were at war the whole ten turns but no Cities traded hands.
Again I apologize for the burning city. On to the next player.

2nd Weedlike move I forgot to copy the save to disk before I came to work so it won't get uploaded unitl 6 p.m. this evening...

Our Empire

West Side Story:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/West_Side_Story.jpg
East Germany:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/East_side_Story.jpg
Again, I will upload the save this evening

Nice write-up, Mistfit, and a solid set of turns! Don't sweat the weedy move, Scout and I have both had one of those so far in this game :lol: In fact only GK has yet to let a city riot... :mischief:

I can see you are another Barracks addict! Well, we aren't planning any major military efforts yet, and we have had our hands full with building workers/settlers/libraries... Maybe later we'll get more Militaristic ;)

I liked your trading. Taking the AI's cash seems fair to me, as we can plow it into science, and they tend to rush units. The only thing we might want to be light on is gpt deals later on. Speeding the tech pace is all-important in this variant we are trying, so I think your trades were sound. But poor old Tokugawa!! :cry: What has he ever done to you?? :lol:


Tal

Rax are cool, but there's another improvement that we need to take advantage of - harbors. We need to get one in play soon after astronomy, so we can get some lux trades going "across the pond".

Sorry for the double-post, but since there's a chance that a player might be joining us, let's put this on hold for a day.

Order of go:

Gengis Khan: Up, but please stand-by for the moment
Tallanas: On deck
Scoutsout: In the bullpen
Mistfit: Just played
______ ? - possible slot for a new player, possible "up" if he wants to join in.

This may change if we add another, and we may want to tinker with it depending on whether the new player would feel comfortable jumping right in.

Q/Tweed: MIA, out of rotation for the time being.

@Tallanas
But poor old Tokugawa!! What has he ever done to you??
I think every Civ player has one Arch Nemisis. Tok happens to be mine. I can't play him worth a hoot, and I have been decimated by Sam's on a number of games.
@Scout
but there's another improvement that we need to take advantage of - harbors.

Ya know I wasn't thinking of that aspect of harbors. Normally I think of them just for the additional food. Good point. (Stil the teacher...even out of class :lol: )

@Tallanas

I think every Civ player has one Arch Nemisis. Tok happens to be mine. I can't play him worth a hoot, and I have been decimated by Sam's on a number of games.


Ah, I see :lol:

I have a couple of Civs I love to hate - the Americans, and the Persians. The Americans (in game only!) annoy me by their expansionism (bad neighbours!). The Persians are just nasty, and the Immortals are a pain in the backside!

Hello, gentlemen. Karasu has kindly invited me to join this team. Glad to be on board.

Scoutsout, thanks very much for holding the game up for me. But I'm up in my other game at the moment (Karasu!), so I'd rather play after GK, or wherever you see fit to put me in the roster. I'm in North America, if we're paying attention to time zones.

I've read the whole thread, and I understand that we're going for the "unbuilt UN" win, with an emphasis on pushing the tech pace. But I'd welcome any advice or commentary the rest of you might consider helpful, of course.

Two questions for Scoutsout:

1. A few pages back, you refer to "leaving one gold on the table" to reduce all the "obnoxious clicking". If this means that you know a trick to speed up the tedious diplo checks, could you please describe it in detail?

2. You've consistently said that we might not have to capture the UN to win. But have you ever actually seen an AI civ call a UN vote which the human player then won? I haven't.

Welcome Northern Pike :D (may we refer to you as North, Pike, NP, or do you prefer the full title?) BTW one if my favorite sport fish in the world

Good question on both: I will look forward to the answer on #1
#2 we discussed a few pgs back and decided we would actually have to take the UN

NP is fine. :) The fishing must be fantastic where you live.

Oops.. actually that discussion on the UN was in the TDG thread. To paraphrase the discussion it was generally decided that the AI will not call for a vote if they can't win.

For BIG Northern Pike...we will do a fly-in in Northern Ontario about every other year...very nice...last year I landed a 45" Northern

@Northern Pike: Welcome to the team, glad to have you on board!

Tallanas is on the other side of the pond, GMT± a couple minutes of angle... I believe the rest of us are in N. America somewhere... (though GK's spirit may be ... "elsewhere"... :p )

Let's see if Gengis posts a 'got it' this evening or not, and tinker with the play order from there. Slotting you in now would keep the rest of the order of play the same.. and I wouldn't mind waiting a day or two if you could get to it by... Thursday?

On "leaving one gold on the table": When you open diplomacy with an AI, you can offer one gold, look at what they've got (Gold,lux, tech, workers) and hit the <Esc> key. Open up diplomacy with another AI, put one gold on the table, hit escape. Once you've done this with all the AI, the next time you open up diplomacy with that AI (even on the next turn) it will take you straight back to the point where you put that gold on the table, and you can see if they've got anything new each turn. It only resets if you do a transaction with them.

A MUCH better way (that I started playing with last weekend) is Dianthus' Mapstat utility that comes with his CivReplay suite. This includes elements of Ainwood's "Trade Assist". It basically looks at the autosaves automatically and lets you know if there are workers for sale or new techs to trade around. I'll post a link later if you have trouble finding it. It is absolutely awesome..

On capturing the UN - others are convincing me that we will probably have to capture it. Hopefully France will build it for us, because they'll be easier to invade than someone on the other continent.

replay link (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=52902&page=1&pp=20)

I've been reading it most of the morning :lol:

Scoutsout, no problem--I can start playing Thursday night, if it works out that way.

Thanks for describing the clever trick. And that utility sounds great, as you say--I've been dreaming of something like that for years.

Mistfit, thanks for the link.

Thanks for describing the clever trick. And that utility sounds great, as you say--I've been dreaming of something like that for years.It may very well be the best thing to happen to Civ since Bamspeedy went public with the 4-turn settler factory...

Welcome, Pike :)

Team Scout is back up to full strength! [dance]

Well I'm off to home I will brave the dial up internet there and post the save in about an hour or so from now.

A MUCH better way (that I started playing with last weekend) is Dianthus' Mapstat utility that comes with his CivReplay suite. This includes elements of Ainwood's "Trade Assist". It basically looks at the autosaves automatically and lets you know if there are workers for sale or new techs to trade around. I'll post a link later if you have trouble finding it. It is absolutely awesome..

Sounds awesome, so I downloaded it - haven't used it yet, but I have a question. How legal is it? i.e. is it permissible in any GoTM?

Sounds awesome, so I downloaded it - haven't used it yet, but I have a question. How legal is it? i.e. is it permissible in any GoTM?I confirmed in a PM with Ainwood yesterday that it's permissible for GOTM/COTM and HOF games. Just don't uncheck the spoiler boxes...

...and speaking of GOTM...

@Gengis: Did you notice that GOTM32 "Classic" is playable with un-modded PTW? :mischief:

Heh, just having a test game with it, a PTW game as Spain - I like it :)

Hey when submitting the .sav to the fourm they ask
Please enter your Forum name: do they want "Mistfit" or "Team Scout"?

Edit nevermind I use the tried and true method of trial and error.
BTW its your screen name.

Here the save 560AD scout (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/scout_SG002_AD0560_01.SAV)

Since I haven't heard from Gengis this evening, I suspect he's at the beach getting toasted and baked... soo....

@NP - you're up, take your time. If you can get it played by Friday that'll be fine. After that, we'll go to GK, Tal, me, Mistfit, and back to you.

One thing we all need to watch - our FP city lacks a market, so we're going to have happiness problems there as it grows.

Also - the thing I started building in Konigsberg (Leo's?) is a pre-build for Copernicus...

For those watching the score: I'm optimistic that our score line will improve dramatically as our population grows. I think we got into Republic fairly early, which followed an absolutely awful hammering by barbs... I think that slowed us down, but in the long run (and this variant is a long run) it will prove to be a minor setback.

Oh man - I just thought of something awful...

If no Japanese town is on an island to the north, it means there are tons of barb horses up there, and any Japanese settler pair got clipped (or never got off the boat). We might want to send 2 knights to each island to investigate before sending any settler pairs...

Oh man - I just thought of something awful...

If no Japanese town is on an island to the north, it means there are tons of barb horses up there, and any Japanese settler pair got clipped (or never got off the boat). We might want to send 2 knights to each island to investigate before sending any settler pairs...

:eek:

Good call... Definitely the way forward, this scouts out business ;)

Hmm, suddenly I'm not so sure that it's worth settling up there if there are 2 stacks of 24 horse. For those of you just joining us, just the mention of BSoTE's (Barbarian Stacks of Treasury Emptying) to me, GK and Scout is enough to bring on the :twitch:

Suffice to say, the AIs went into the Middle Ages at a very inopportune moment :lol:

Hmm, suddenly I'm not so sure that it's worth settling up there if there are 2 stacks of 24 horse. Barbarians aside... this game has a couple of twisted habits:

1) If you see an AI settler pair plop down in the middle of the desert, you can bet your bottom dollar that there's oil and/or saltpeter within the 9 tiles of that city. (Sir Bugsy still owes me a six-pack from Bede01 on that count...)

2) If you see an AI Settler pair headed towards tundra, it's probablly got oil...

I recall a particular officer I once knew. As the saying goes..."he doesn't miss many meals, and he doesn't miss any deals." An "old sahge" pointed him out to me one afternoon, with the advice "if you ever see that man standing still, get in line, 'cause they're about to start handin' out somethin' good.".

That Japanese Galley wasn't sightseeing, they have the map.

Knights to play whack-a-barb. Settlers to claim "snow" (oil, or somethin' good).

An "old sahge" pointed him out to me one afternoon, with the advice "if you ever see that man standing still, get in line, 'cause they're about to start handin' out somethin' good.".

:lol:

That Japanese Galley wasn't sightseeing, they have the map.

Knights to play whack-a-barb. Settlers to claim "snow" (oil, or somethin' good).

You just know the oil will be in the 9-tile snow section of that island :)

Tal

I had thought of that on my last turns. Make sure you turn around the galley as it has only 2 settlers on it right now. If your feeling lucky you could pop a couple of Regular Knights from towns that don't have Rax in them to expidite things and then take them across for a military "training" expedition. If not we will have quite a wait to get two more Vets and a galley.

:bounce::banana: :bounce: :banana: :bounce::banana: :bounce::banana: :bounce:

How about them DEEETROIT PISTONS

Advice received--thanks, all. :goodjob:

Scouts Quote:One thing we all need to watch - our FP city lacks a market, so we're going to have happiness problems there as it grows.
This seems to be a downfall of not going to war with anyone...no GL's for rushing the Forbidden Palace of Auburn Hills
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/terrain_stat.jpg
I have a sneaking suspission that we got 213 of the jungle tiles out of the 214 available

Scouts Quote:
This seems to be a downfall of not going to war with anyone...no GL's for rushing the Forbidden Palace of Auburn Hills

Yes! As seen in the spoiler thread, there are a number of other teams who did exactly this - get the GL, rush the palace, sit back and enjoy!

Funnily enough, in ***SPOILER CENSORED*** recently, I waged a fantastic war against ***SPOILER CENSORED*** got 3 leaders, 2 in the same turn, and laughed all the way to ***SPOILER CENSORED***. Twice.

;)

However, since we are going for diplo win and tech pace, I'm willing to endure the great pita that is building a FP brick by brick...


Tal

Are we able to look at the spoiler thread now?

Are we able to look at the spoiler thread now?

Yes :)

blah blah blah...

Looks like everyone else is going for war. I hope this helps us in the long run. As I wasn't here for the begining how did we do in comparison to the others date wise getting to the MA?

Hmm, there's a teaser... Scout?

By the way, the blah blah balh above was to fill out the minimum character count :)

Can't just say "Yes" and be done with it :lol:

OK I stopped being lazy and looked again. Actually you guys did very well in compairson. only team Kunningas beat you to the MA. 650BC wow. Although I was very impressed with team scout getting there at 450bc.

I guess that's what happens when you trade with your neighbours, rather than getting out the pointed sticks...

:D

If we can beat the other teams to the industrial age, we can own this game. Lots of dead-end techs to trip us up in the Middle ages...

Look for France to bee-line to Gunpowder, which means we need to stay on the upper end of the tree.

I would agree with that, Scout. I think the Middle Ages are the most important section of the game in terms of tech pace and getting into a position to dominate the AI. It's as if the AA is where you set it up, madly expanding and trading for parity, and here is where the early work is fulfilled. The IA should be a stroll if you get this era right.

That said, we could use a Golden Age pretty soon. Our population is getting big enough to make full use of one. The only thing is, I just checked and found that Copernicus is an expansionist wonder, not scientific. So we'll most likely need Newton's Uni and, if we want an early one, Leonardo's Workshop (military), or for later, Theory of Evolution (scientific)...


Tal

An industrial era Golden Age before Panzers would be nice...

But we seem to have a pretty solid tech parity going; a GA isn't all that important. One thing we need to do is pay attention to the dead end techs. Though there is one that I want (Economics - I love Smith's) whenever the AI get a dead-end tech we need to acquire it and trade/give it around. Navigation needs to get given/traded around ASAP, so that we can trade lux with the other continent. We need to keep as much research effort as possible going into the techs that will move us forward.

Good plan Scout. I love Smith's as well especially with my tendency to over build. I have found in my limited Monarch experience that by the mid to late middle age I turn up the science and never get beat to another tech.

Another one that would be nice is Bach's cathedral... 2 content per city... Mmmm :)

I'm glad the question of our Wonder-activated Golden Age has been raised. (A GA triggered by Panzers would come too late to mean much.) Assuming that we aren't going to be taking other nations' Wonders, we don't have a wide range of options, and we need to make a firm decision as to when we want our GA before we let the pre-build in Konigsberg complete.

The basic constraint is that of the five militaristic Wonders in the game, one (Great Wall) has been built and one (Manhattan Project) occurs uselessly late for our purposes. Two others, Sun Tzu and Leonardo, are being built by other civs right now. So if we don't get Sun Tzu or Leonardo, the decision is made for us--our GA will occur in the Industrial Age, when we build Universal Suffrage (yes, a militaristic Wonder). In itself that wouldn't be bad timing, but it would require us to commit resources to an expensive, basically useless Wonder at a time when we'd be very concerned about a better one, ToE. And while a GA early in the Industrial Age would be all right, one on the threshold of the IA, triggered by Newton, would be perfect.

My conclusion, then, is that we should try to use the pre-build in Konigsberg to beat our rivals to Leonardo (or Sun Tzu, if necessary and possible), and only default to Copernicus if we fail in this. But it's a vital decision which can be argued either way, and I'd like to hear what the rest of you think. I won't play for fifteen hours or so, so you have some time to respond.

While a Middle Ages GA is generally preferable, I think an industrial age GA might actually serve us better with this odd variant. Those industrial age techs are expensive, and burning through the industrial age will be key.

Getting Copernicus' would give us an edge in research, which we could use to speed up the tech pace. And until we get our inner core hacked out of the jungle and get our FP on-line, we will need every edge we can get. I think the combination of Copernicus', Smith's, and Newton's could be more powerful than a GA.

I sure wish GK would come back from the beach, or wherever he is...

Bear in mind also that a GA can be used to build universities everywhere...

Also, NP, Scout has mentioned this and I also believe that 2 scientific wonders will trigger a GA, so that's something to consider! Newton's University and the Theory of Evolution should trigger our GA anyway in the early Industrial Age.

I've been giving this game a little bit of thought, and I have 2 suggestions:

First - we ought to think about a bee-line to Democracy. We need democracy's uber-worker, and it will help the tech pace if we can get the AI into democracy as well. Since Republic offers no advantage over democracy, we should revolt as soon as we get the tech, and then trade/gift it around the table.

Second - we need to speed up our play a bit. Since Staff has not raised any objections to the odd numbered turnsets that have been turned in, I want everyone to play twelve (12) turns instead of ten.

If we do not pick up the pace soon we will be pressured to meet the deadline.

@Tallanas: Consider yourself "on deck". Assuming Northern Pike gets to this game and posts a turnlog this evening, the clock will start immediately on Gengis Khan. I have not heard from him in several days, and he's MIA in at least one other SG. I hate to do this, but the 24-hour clock will start the moment NP posts his turnlog, because I have no way of knowing when GK will return.

Northern Pike - UP
Gengis Khan - On Deck
Tallanas - Warming up
Scoutsout - standing by
Mistfit - just played

Missing in Action (not expected back): qm1pooh, mr Tweed

Also, NP, Scout has mentioned this and I also believe that 2 scientific wonders will trigger a GA, so that's something to consider! Newton's University and the Theory of Evolution should trigger our GA anyway in the early Industrial Age.

This is vital information if true, but I'm not quite convinced. The Civilopedia states unambiguously that a Wonder-triggered GA requires Wonders corresponding to both of a civ's strengths. Are you gentlemen so sure two scientific Wonders would be sufficient that we can disregard the Civilopedia? That is to say, have you actually seen this, in vanilla?

Scoutsout, I should be able to post twelve turns this evening.

680 AD, end of turn (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/scout_SG002_AD0680_01.SAV)

560 (0): Excellent RCP--a pleasure to see. :goodjob:

We've got twenty workers committed to the very slow work of clearing jungle, and twelve of them aren't even servicing core cities. Jungle clearance in outlying areas really isn't an efficient use of limited labour this early in the game.

Since we aren't planning to go out and conquer anybody, our minimal army doesn't need expensive knights as much as it needs numbers. I'll switch Frankfurt from knight to pikeman.

Salzburg is a first-ring city, so a courthouse isn't a high-priority build there. I'll switch the town to a barracks.

Bremen is a promising town which isn't getting quick population growth, so I don't want to abuse it by producing a settler there before it has a granary. I'll make the corresponding switch (settler --> granary).

I get all three of our knights moving towards the barbarian-infested islands. We aren't going to be using them to attack in the southwest--and if we're attacked, we'll think of something. ;)

Heidelberg barracks --> pikeman.


570 (1): We found New Stuttgart on Mistfit's site in the jungle.

The French have Gunpowder.

Salzburg barracks --> pikeman.


580 (2): Cologne marketplace --> barracks.


590 (3): Two knights set sail for the northeastern island in a galley.

We discover Astronomy and begin research on Banking, due in eight turns at 60% science, 0 gpt.

Munich barracks --> pikeman, New Konigsberg library --> courthouse.


600 (4): The two knights land on the northeastern island, without spotting any barbarians.

We trade Astronomy to the French for Gunpowder, 86 gold, and 9 gpt (full value). Loosely speaking, we have three saltpetre--but all three are one tile beyond our cultural borders for the moment.

The Japanese have beaten us to the northwestern island, founding Bizen. I'll rush a caravel in case we can still found on the other end of the island.


610 (5): We get a caravel containing two settlers and a knight moving towards the northwestern island.

Our southern archer shoots down a barbarian warrior, then repels the attack of a barbarian horseman.

Cologne barracks --> university, Bremen granary --> university.


620 (6): The southern archer disperses a Gepid camp for 25 gold.

Well, since the arguments are finely balanced, I won't override our fearless leader's opinion as to what to do with the Konigsberg pre-build. So:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2SCOUT-620AD.JPG

630 (7): In an attempt to speed up construction of the Forbidden Palace, I merge two workers into New Berlin. Much of the benefit is lost to corruption, but time until completion does decline from 69 turns to 45.

Two of our settlers reach the northeastern island--where there are no barbarians, but still, we were right to be careful.

Hamburg aqueduct --> library.


640 (8): The French have Music Theory.

Nuremberg produces our first harbour; but since we don't have Navigation, no new trade opportunites arise.


650 (9): A goody hut on the northwestern island produces three Magyar warriors. They don't (to jump ahead in the account a bit) give our knight any trouble, and the knight promotes to elite.


660 (10): We found New Bonn on the northeastern island.

Suddenly four rival civs have Banking, so our chance of trading it to the French for Music Theory is lost. We then discover it for ourselves, and begin work on Democracy, due in nine turns at 60% science, 5 gpt.


670 (11): We found New Salzburg and New Dortmund on the northwestern island, completing settlement here (bearing in mind the one Japanese city).


680 (12): We found New Brandenburg on the northeastern island, and Funfkirchen in the southern corridor between Strasbourg and Vladivostok.

I've started a palace pre-build for Newton in Konigsberg. Even if we end up overpaying for Newton somewhat, I think this is the safe play. Right now I have Konigsberg set for no population growth, since it couldn't keep a tenth citizen happy anyway, but its food surplus should be restored if the happiness situation changes.

The settler in Nuremberg should be used to found a city three tiles directly north of New Brandenburg, which will give us complete control of the northeastern island. I've assembled enough pikemen and spearmen in and around Nuremberg and New Munich to provide proper garrisons for the five island cities, and free our knights for more useful work. There are still barbarian galleys off the coasts of the islands, so be careful.

Our southern settler, near Funfkirchen, should found a city on the tile directly east of the one it now occupies.

We have the option of buying furs from the French. I haven't done this, because most of our cities don't need help with happiness yet; but if we do do it, we should be sure to merge another worker into our FP city.

We only need another 1-3 settlers out of Berlin, depending on how determined we are to claim every remaining neutral tile. After these have been built Berlin, and perhaps other towns, should produce workers for merging into other cities (which appears to be allowable in this game, though I encourage the rest of you to check this independently). This is the most important advice I have to offer in the situation we now face. I don't think we can get out of the hole we're in just on the basis of natural population growth. But with intelligent use of worker merges, we've got a shot.

The French are ahead of us by Music Theory, the Indians are even with us, and the other civs are 1-2 techs behind us. I haven't gone so far as to give the laggards the techs they lack, because I'm not sure how radical our policy is in this regard, but it can be done now if that's what the team wants.

The efficient way to use the workers southwest of Dortmund would be to have the ones which become active next turn build a road. On the turn after that, the whole stack can move southeast and cut down the forest with no wasted labour.

The new north:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2SCOUT-680AD.JPG

From what I can tell (I only skimmed the log) that looks like a very strong set of turns, NP! :thumbsup:

@Tallanas: Gengis got skipped in a SG we're both in, and is MIA in another SG I am following. When we hit 24-hours after NPs turnlog, feel free to take it and play 12 if GK has not posted. I hate to crack the :whipped: but we need to keep this moving.

@NP: I don't really disagree with you on the Knights, I know they are expensive (and we don't plan to go on the offense)... but a reasonable number of Knights can be really useful. They can reinforce a position quickly, defend as well as pikes, and skirmish in the defense. I certainly don't object to building some numbers in our military, but if we could scrape together 6-8 knights of the next few turnsets I think it would be a Good Thing.

Another @NP: What do you think our chances are of snagging Smith's AND Newton's? Do we have a second city that appears productive enough to chase another wonder? Or do you think that would be reaching?

...or should we skip the dead-end techs and burn straight for the Industrial age? Hmmm... that brings me back to the Knights...

I can't remember the last time I skipped Military Tradition... but what do you guys think about a hard burn for the IA? As in, no more dead-end techs after Democracy? We could let the AI chase all the silly dead-end techs, and pick them up cheap sometime in the early IA when we trade them back up to speed...

I am rambling... and trying to cope a little bit here. It would seem Karasu handed team scout a pretty strong player... having to learn the style and strengths of a good player is a good problem to have, IMO.

another @NP: I'm open to your input...and will read your turnlog more thoroughly tomorrow evening. I saw some good suggestions there on worker moves.

Thanks for your generous comments. :)

We don't have another city as productive as Konigsberg, but even so I like the idea of starting a second pre-build a lot. At monarch the AI only gets a 10% discount, and the AI civs' decisions as to where to build Wonders are often idiotic, so a pre-build city doesn't have to be tremendous to achieve its goal. I think we should switch Salzburg to a bank pre-build (before Enter is pressed, since it's about to complete a pikeman), mine its two unimproved hills (there are four workers in the vicinity), and eventually micromanage it so that it's a size seven city with no food surplus producing 14 shields before corruption, and presumably 12 after corruption. This would give us a real chance at the Newton-Smith double play.

I agree that we should skip as many optional mediaeval techs as possible, and particularly Military Tradition, which is almost useless given our current aims and priorities. We may have to research Economics ourselves to protect our Smith pre-build, but other than our goal should be to proceed directly to the IA.

Just for information, I am not aware of any occurrence of a GA triggered by two scientific wonders in this situation (although I haven't done any test myself, I must admit).

As far as I can tell, you will need a scientific and a militaristic wonder for your GA -and you will need to build a wonder yourselves if you happened to capture any of the necessary ones.

EDIT: No problems with playing 12 turns each, of course.

Well, I would have sworn that I have seen the double-wonder GA personally. In fact, i am convinved. However, I could be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time!) - I will try to verify this in a different game later this evening if possible.

I guess we can always build Leo's ;)

Tal

Ok, double-posting again ;)

I only had a few minutes to check in earlier but I've given it more of a look this time round.

First off, good turns NP. In answer to your question on how radical we are being in terms of giving away techs, we are being Radical, capital R! But not suicidal ;)

I like the idea for a Newton/Smith double pre-build, as I think both of those wonders will be hugely influential in how successful we are at this variant. I like them both in normal play, but in this game, their worth is doubled.

As for the turn order, it's now 24 hours after NP posted his turns. So... This is technically a "got it" although I will play the 12 turns in the morning, as it's a little late now for fully clear thought. So, if GK gets back in the next 12 hours, and posts, I'll wait, otherwise the log will be posted Sunday morning GMT.

Tal

Triple post, over 18 hours... Not exactly a busy thread!

Just starting my turns now, will post log soon...


Tal

Pre-flight

France is building four wonders concurrently... Hmm! Way to go, AI :lol: Also France does not as yet have saltpeter hooked up, although I imagine this will be a priority now. Notice the positioning of Poitiers - it's just all wrong! Claims 3 desert in its 9-tile start, where moving one south would claim none. I wondered about that, and then thought - Middle Ages Resource!! What's the betting that Bizen has Oil or Rubber or something? :rolleyes:

Salzburg>bank

Re knights. I'm afraid I'm going to disagree about knights vs numbers. One reson we wanted decent units was to avoid having to have lots of units which we have to support under Republic/Democracy. I actually started disbanding warriors on my last set of turns, as it was hurting our science... Currently we lose 81gpt in unit support. 60% science only = 210... :sad:

France are being silly, asking 500g for Furs, and refusing to sell MT... Trade Astronomy to China for WM+40g, Japan for WM+34g, and gift it to Russia and England. Let's face it. They aren't going to discover it on their own before the game is over! Keep banking back for a bit

IBT - :sleep:

Turn 1 - 690 AD

Dortmund courthouse>marketplace

MM around Nuremberg and New Leipzig to alleviate corruption. General worker moves...

IBT - Eastward settler movement from France and Russia.

Turn 2 - 700 AD

Berlin settler>settler, Hamburg>marketplace, Hannover could do with a temple, but start a Uni instead. Bonn market>Uni.

Settle town in the far east end. AI suggest we call it Berlin2! Rename it Talsburg ;) Too many settlers down in that corner now, am thinking or changing production in Berlin from settler.

France has managed to build 4 road tiles in 2 turns to hook up that saltpeter. Look out for French aggression soon! Gift japan banking, as no one else has given him it...

IBT - People finally offer to build us a nice palace - decide to get them to mow the lawn and put some steps in!

Turn 3 - 710 AD

Grrr! We need that damn FP! This corruption is killing us :sad:

IBT - English>SunTzu (good luck), Chinese>Leo's

Turn 4 - 720 AD

French now have Navigation! :eek: They are doing better than us at tech races... I assume they have been selling techs for gpt...

Lots of French Swords in the east still, plenty more settlers arriving too...

IBT - conscript barbarian kills our elite fortified warrior... Carries off 20g. Bugger.

Turn 5 - 730 AD

Moving the defenders up to the islands, 2 knights are now back... Worker stuff. Turn tax rate up to get Demo a turn earlier.

IBT - :sleep:

Turn 6 - 740 AD

Democracy is here. *gulp* Real life is going to interrupt for a while here, so I will post this and see if I get any advice!

OK, back. Decide we are really not going anywhere with Republic so i bite the bullet and decide to burn the rest of my turns in anarchy :crazyeye:

Draw a 3 turn Revolution :smug:

Turn 7 - 750 AD

Now then. France are slightly more eager to talk business now that we have Democracy. I decide to trade Democracy for Navigation, Music Theory, 40g and 10gpt. This will bring us up to parity, help negate the effects of the revolution, and get us back on track, I hope. It will also enable us to use more wonders as prebuilds, as I dont think Salzburg's bank will last long enough. Also, now that Berlin is no longer a settler pump, that will be a fantastic production site.

Music Theory to India for 40g, Russia for 30g, China offer 20g plus 4gpt, gift it to England. Will do Navigation in a turn or two, maybe try to get some luxuries from the "New World"

Saltpeter near Leipzig now roaded, and the border will expand in 3 turns. Didn't really time that well, how inelegant.


IBT - nada

Turn 8 - 760 AD

Found another island city, Scoutsburg ;) I just don't do cities with numbers in them. From now on, every team member gets a personal city!

IBT - Novgorod founded in the east, not sure there will be anywhere left for our settler... Hamburg is rioting like mad, but has no food reserves, so not much I can do :rolleyes:

Turn 9 - 770 AD

China has Democracy, I imagine France has been silly... :sigh:

Just realised that food doesn't matter in Anarchy. Presumably people eat each other... Hire a clown in Hamburg.

Gift Democracy to the world. I know that this might seem silly. However, it will help the tech pace the world over, hopefully, make wars harder to sustain for the AI, so hopefully Russia and England can finally bury the hatchet. Also, at the rate France was researching, it was hardly going to remain a secret for long, so selling to France and gifting to the rest helps us with techs, cash, income and popularity, as well as maintaining a pretty fearsome overall tech pace :)

IBT - Revolution ends! [party] Nearly click on Despotism for new government :eek:

Turn 10 - 780 AD

Some of the cities nearer Berlin have had a major leap in productivity. However New Berlin remains as crappy as ever!

Economics in 6 turns. Gold holding steady. Can now maintain 70% science. New uber-worker looking good. However, beginning to experience happiness issues in some cities. The options seem to be temples or a trade for luxuries.

Navigation to China for dyes, then round the others for chump change or gift-wrapped...

Do a city check, get rid of clowns... Things look okay...

IBT - zip

Turn 11 - 790 AD

Not much really, even more worker turns than usual, since the pace of these arduous tasks has improved dramatically :)

IBT - yawn

Turn 12 - 800 AD

Munich Uni built, also Bremen Uni. Science is beginning to flourish. Lots of worker moves, and that's it!

Quick wrap-up post...

70% science is now 324 beakers, whereas a short time ago, 60% was 210. I am pleased with this increase.

I haven't really increased the military, but maybe a few more knights and muskets would be useful. Get rid of some of those old warriors :)

Economics arrives shortly, then it's a beeline for Theory of Gravity and the Industrial Age.


Tal

Just been looking at the score charts for the game. Could we be the only ones going for the variant? We are so far behind due to not having had a successful war with the resultant land expansion, that I think that everybody else must have shunned the variant here. Some people have won by 850 AD :lol:

Just a quick post to let Tallanas know he's not alone. ;)

I've got it, and will play tonight after a more careful reading of NP and Tal's comments.

@Tal: I've just skimmed it at this point, but nice job with Democracy, and good call to revolt. :thumsup: (I read somewhere that you get a shorter anarchy if you're the first to a gov't tech and revolt immediately...)

Order of go:

Gengis Khan: MAI
Tallanas: Revolutionary Extraordinaire
Scout: UP
Mistfit: On Deck
Northern Pike: Warming up

Fine round, Tallanas. Our getting to democracy with only three turns lost to anarchy is a great step forward. :goodjob:

I'll say it again: I don't think we can catch up to the other teams while relying on natural population growth. We desperately need a worker pump somewhere. Tallanas, I'm not criticizing your decision to let Berlin grow, since after all our capital ought to be a highly productive city. But I think we have to either start building workers in Berlin after it completes its university, or (as I suspect the rest of you would prefer) turn Hannover into our source of workers. If we make the latter choice, we should change Hannover's build from university to granary, and rush the granary immediately.

The worker-merging campaign I have in mind is particularly important in connection with our late Forbidden Palace. We need to have New Berlin surrounded by size-twelve cities not long after it completes the FP. A second core of cities struggling up from size seven to size twelve at their own pace won't be enough.

We're clearing jungle with a lot of small worker stacks, which really isn't the way to do it. Outside Konigsberg, two stacks of two workers each still have six turns to go. If all four workers were on the same tile, Konigsberg would have one extra cleared tile to work already. A similar situation exists in the jungles outside Dortmund.

Scoutsout, a few points:

1. Since the discussion of this issue is scattered over various posts, I'll repeat here that the bank in Salzburg is a Wonder pre-build, and mustn't complete. Salzburg will need adjusting once the workers there finish the lastest mine.

2. Konigsberg could now keep a tenth citizen happy, so you might want to restore a food surplus there once the nearby jungle squares are cleared.

3. Now that we have French furs, New Berlin (our FP city) can keep a seventh citizen happy, so it's vital that we should merge another worker into the town. Once this is done, it should be possible to get four shields per turn out of the town after corruption with no food surplus--although this may require some deft tile-swapping, since we're cutting down the forests around New Berlin at a great rate.

I'll say it again: I don't think we can catch up to the other teams while relying on natural population growth. We desperately need a worker pump somewhere. Your point on the worker pump is well taken NP. I'd like you to look at the next save and offer your thoughts... it's a different game now. turn Hannover into our source of workers. If we make the latter choice, we should change Hannover's build from university to granary, and rush the granary immediately.I wish you had posted that before I played my turns... dang. That was a good suggestion. The worker-merging campaign I have in mind Oaky - that's it - NP has a good idea - and I want to give him a chance to refine it.

@ Mistfit: Post your got it at your leisure, but please wait at least 48 hours to play, so that NP can have a chance to look at the save and offer some thoughts on his worker-pump grow-our-second-core strat.We're clearing jungle with a lot of small worker stacks, which really isn't the way to do it. Outside Konigsberg, two stacks of two workers each <snip>I consolidated the 4 outside K'berg, which you'll like. Then I pushed them to chop jungle and make roads in 2 crappy cities, which you won't like.... but we need to get each of our crummy cities at least 1 workable tile, and a connection to the empire...1. Since the discussion of this issue is scattered over various posts, I'll repeat here that the bank in Salzburg is a Wonder pre-buildI tried to play it that way, but we lost Smith's to a cascade....
Konigsberg could now keep a tenth citizen happyOne thing that will look a LOT different is the happiness situation. I got us a couple of lux deals. :D New Berlin looks different now, and our FP should be complete either at the end of Mistfit's next turnset, or at the beginning of Tal's.

I'm going to shut up now, upload the save, and post a turnlog. :D

Pre-flight check:

Tallanas mentioned our score, and I see part of our problem. We have a lot of our citizens who are only content, and many unhappy ones. Spices, Ivory, WM, 260g to Mao for Silks.
=====
IBT - some minor shuffling among AI
Frankfurt Market>Library
Stuttgart court>Worker (too much jungle)
We get a border expansion that gets a saltpeter, which is then promptly exhausted.
=====
Turn 1 (810) Some worker moves, and that's about it. Set Salzburg up to grow a little, since it's happier now.
=====
IBT - Bradenburg Market>Bank
=====
Turn 2 (820)
France, Russia, India, and China all have Economics.
Trade India Ivory for Economics to start the burn on Chemistry
Set Konigsberg to Smiths, Salzburg to Palace.
Rush a Library in New Munich to get some salt
New Berlin: Put a citizen on forest, join a citizen, and shave FP build to 23t.
=====
IBT - Not much
Stuttgart Worker>Market
New Munich Library>Market
The English are building Sun Tzu's
The Chinese are building Smith's
=====
Turn 3 (830)
Gift Economics to Japan
Stop a forest chop near New Berlin (Forest shields don't help small wonders...)
=====
IBT - China completes Sistine (Here comes the cascade)
=====
Turn 4 (840) mostly worker moves, and we need more workers in the south to hack this civ out of the jungle.
=====
IBT - Berlin University>Bank, New Nuremberg Library>Court
The French are building Smith's, Paris completes Leo's, in Paris, and Smith's trading company in Lyons
Japanese are building Bach's, Magellan's
Indians are building Bach's, Magellan's
Chinese are Building Bach's,
=====
Turn 5 (850)
Change K'burg back to Palace for Newton's...I wish it didn't already have Copernicus'...
Still can't figure out what to do with this settler...
Buy a Japanese worker for 30g
=====
IBT - 3 French swords poke their heads out of ...Stasbourg
Frankfurt Library>Knight (I want 2 more)
Nuremberg Aqueduct>University
Salzburg Bank>University
New Frankfurt Library>Market
The English are building Sun Tzu
=====
Turn 6 (860)
Take Science down, Chemistry next turn
Some worker moves, we have saltpeter now...
=====
IBT - Chemistry comes in, queue to Physics, ratchet up to get in 5
Hamburg Market>University
Cologne Knight>Musket
Russians building Bach's
French building Magellan's
=====
Turn 7 (870)
France, Russia, and Japan all have Chemistry
Sell it to India (gracious) for 40g.
China for WM+30g
Give it to England. 16g is chump change, and she's at war.
Continue whacking at some jungle...
By the way, I've been clearing the fog in the ocean with our caravels, to try to add some margin of value to our WM...
Crank Science to 90% to try to beat France to Physics
=====
IBT - Russians want a RoP & Alliance v. England.
I give her a gift of 10g as a token of my esteem
New Cologne Library>Harbor
We get a new front door for the Palace. Looking at this palace, it's hard to believe we're knocking on the door of the industrial age.
=====
Turn 8 (880)
I found Tallatown on the SE coast, among some jungle. For some reason Tallanas seems fond of jungle.
Joining another worker to New Berlin did not help our FP build.
=====
IBT - Dortmund Market>Rax
New Hannover Library>Market
Our Palace gets a second floor
=====
Turn 9 (890)
...mostly worker moves here.
=====
IBT - Hannover University>Bank
New K'burg Court>Market
ANOTHER Palace expansion
=====
Enlish are building Sun Tzu's...
Chinese are building Shakepeare's Theater...(hmmm...)
=====
Turn 10 (900)
Holy @%$#% the entire WORLD has Free Artistry...except Japan
Take science down to 60%, Physics due next turn
Change Frankfurt's Knight build to University
Change New Hamburg's Court build to a market (FP will fix NH's corruption problems, and it really needs a market)
Start working on a road to connect another incense (for trade...)
Some jungle cuts...
=====
IBT - Physics comes in, start ToG @ 70%, -10gpt, due in 5
French building Shake's
Why are the English continuing to reset their Sun Tzu build? I fear they are not long for the world...
=====
Turn 11 (910)
We are up physics on the whole world. [dance]

Let's see...shopping Physics...
France will offer us Free Artistry, WM, 74gpt, 20g...
China offers FA, WM, 48gpt, 90g.

I take china's first offer. I've been attacked by France before after a lucrative GPT for a tech deal. Take a somewhat more modest 20g+41gpt from France. Russia gives 60g+18gpt. Trade Physics and Free Artistry to Japan for Wines. This should make a nice dent in our happiness problems. Lighten Ghandi's wallet by 40g, and give Phsyics to England.

Science to 90%, +12gpt, Theory of Gravity in 4.
=====
IBT - Fireworks start popping off - it's We love the Chancellor Day in most of our cities.
Dortmund Rax>Musket
The Japanese are building Shakespeare's Theater
=====
Turn 12 (920)
France has Metallurgy, and will not trade it at any price.
We have one surplus incense, and with ToG due in 3, we might be able to trade for Metallurgy.

After a couple of worker moves, we also have a surplus spice now. Japan, India, and Russia all lack spices. My thoughts - hang on to the spices for the day we need to renew a lux deal with Japan.

some worker moves, and that's gonna do it for this round...

Some thoughts on research - every research beaker in the world is now bringing us closer to the Industrial Age.

We lost Smith's to a cascade, and Sun Tzu's isn't finished yet... hopefully the palace build in K'berg won't be for naught.

After ToG comes in, I think we should set the queue to a hard burn for Magnetism, and try to trade for Metallurgy. We could either hope a couple more AI discover it, or trade ToG to France for Metallurgy.

This means that Mistfit will be ushering in the Industrial Age. I can't recall if you can manipulate the free tech in Vanilla or not... I know there was a time that Nationalism was always the free tech... it might be possible for us to get Steam Power if we set the queue to Nationalism after we learn Magnetism.

Once in the industrial age, we need to bring everybody with us - especially the Russians if they get a different free tech to start the IA...

@NP - Believe it or not, I'm not worrying about the other teams. The Gold Laurel is awarded for the fastest variant win, not the highest scoring.

How do you think we're doing on the tech pace?

Somebody said that Kuningas' team was the only one to beat us to the Middle ages... and I think we got through the MA okay... Sun Tzu's isn't even finished yet!

We get a border expansion that gets a saltpeter, which is then promptly exhausted


Grrr!!

Nice turns otherwise, I particularly like the trading, good work! And Tallatown, I kinda liked that too :)


Tal

Some thoughts on research - every research beaker in the world is now bringing us closer to the Industrial Age.

Yep, we are seeing some real research going on amongst the AI. I know that France are leading the way, but they are not doing it all by themselves.

We lost Smith's to a cascade, and Sun Tzu's isn't finished yet... hopefully the palace build in K'berg won't be for naught.

Shame about Smith's. When I posted about France building 4 wonders at once, I thought it was funny. Now I won't be so flippant! :spank:

After ToG comes in, I think we should set the queue to a hard burn for Magnetism, and try to trade for Metallurgy. We could either hope a couple more AI discover it, or trade ToG to France for Metallurgy.

This means that Mistfit will be ushering in the Industrial Age. I can't recall if you can manipulate the free tech in Vanilla or not... I know there was a time that Nationalism was always the free tech... it might be possible for us to get Steam Power if we set the queue to Nationalism after we learn Magnetism.

As far as I know, 1.29f made the free tech able to any of the 3 starters. In a recent game, two scientific nations got different starting techs when the Age changed over, so I assume it's not set in stone. Anyone know a sure fire way of getting the right one?

@NP - Believe it or not, I'm not worrying about the other teams. The Gold Laurel is awarded for the fastest variant win, not the highest scoring.

How do you think we're doing on the tech pace?

Yep, it's fastest win all right. And personally, I think we are setting a blistering pace...

Somebody said that Kuningas' team was the only one to beat us to the Middle ages... and I think we got through the MA okay... Sun Tzu's isn't even finished yet!

Like I said, we are smoking! :smoke:

Tal

Thanks Tal - trading is going to be key to this game. Something that we need to check ... we need to make sure that there are harbors in Japan, India, and China, with mapped ocean routes to each. If somebody goes to war with somebody else over there, and we lose a trade route with an active trade...

If there is one thing we must avoid as an absolute imperative, it's taking a rep hit. The rest of the world is going to be upset enough with us for taking the UN...

Something I learned the hard way in GOTM30: If you drop off troops on someone else's shores, get the "move or declare" from the AI IBT, and you declare war with troops in the AI territory, it counts the same as a RoP Violation.

@ Tal: For Mistfit's benefit (and to save me some typing) How about filling us in on something you learned about rep hits recently? :mischief:

@ Tal: For Mistfit's benefit (and to save me some typing) How about filling us in on something you learned about rep hits recently? :mischief:

:blush:

Oh that! That wasn't me! I mean, I know it was in our other SG, but it was Bede! Or Planetfall! But not me...

I mean, honestly! Could I possibly not have known that you take a nasty rep hit if...

1) You sign an alliance with Civs A, B and C to defeat the evil Civ X...

2) You proceed to annihilate that Civ X, taking his last city before cancelling the alliance with Civs A, B and C in turn...

Does that sound like me? :mischief:

Apparently, the AIs think that it counts exactly the same as if you had just cancelled the alliance, for instance by signing a peace treaty with your mutual enemy... :hmm:

So beware! No alliances! We don't need war, thanks

Tal

@NP - Believe it or not, I'm not worrying about the other teams. The Gold Laurel is awarded for the fastest variant win, not the highest scoring.

Sure, I understand what our objective is. But worker-merging is a powerful win-win strategy which will speed up the tech pace, and put us in a better position for the eventual war, as well as improving the Jason score that doesn't concern us.

Good stuff, Scoutsout. :thumbsup: I may have more detailed comments after I study the save. I'll try to post my ideas about the worker-merging campaign within the next four hours or so, so as not to keep Mistfit waiting.

@NP: Check Munich for a Granary... I seem to remember building a granary up there to supplement the settlers out of Berlin when it became apparent there was so much land to grab... I don't know if it's too far south to work for your strat, but we can't be too far from Steam Power...

Yeah, there are certainly a few granaries knocking around...

Where are the Pyramids again? :mischief:

The worker pumps, and other points:

1. Worker-merging can contribute so much to our growth at this point that I think we should devote two second-ring cites to producing workers. Hannover and Nuremberg should both switch to granary builds, and rush them immediately. Nuremberg's workers can then be used to pump up New Berlin and its seven first-ring cites, while Hannover's workers go to our original first ring (and also Bremen and Cologne) until all these cities have as many citizens as they can feed, and then to the second core. Hannover and Nuremberg will probably both fall to size six in the course of this project; this is perfectly all right, given the benefits we'll be getting elsewhere.

(Scoutsout and Tallanas, thanks for your useful comments on the granary situation. But I think it's worth purpose-building two granaries to get our worker pumps where we really want them, in second-ring cities with good population growth.)

The only real complication involved in worker-pumping is that it's necessary to reset the cities involved to the most efficient combination of food and shields every time they spit out a worker, since the city governor takes the opportunity to put the remaining citizens on the most asinine tiles possible. Apart from that, it's just a question of moving the workers to their destinations in a disciplined way, resisting the temptation to use them on tile improvements "just for a couple of turns". ;)

2. In our new and improved luxury situation :goodjob:, New Berlin (our FP city) could keep a ninth citizen happy. So another worker should be merged into the town right away, which might well get us a fifth shield after corruption there.

3. Although it goes against the grain to destroy existing tile improvements, sooner or later Bonn's three mined grassland squares will have to be irrigated. Surrounded by hills and mountains as it is, Bonn will only be able to support a useful population with all six of its potential grassland tiles (three are jungle right now) irrigated.

@NP: This is really good stuff... so good in fact, that I think I'm going to let this slip into "Training Day Game" mode for a couple of turnsets. (I'm learning from this too.)

A bit of background: When we lost a couple of players, Gengis and I invited Mistfit to join in from Gengis' Training Day Game.

I think what you're suggesting is really good stuff, but don't be surprised if Mistfit needs a little more advice pulling it off. Tallanas may pop in with some questions too... and I hope he does, because if GK doesn't show up in the next couple of days, Tal may want some pointers too.

And I'll go ahead and tell you - I usually don't break away from "mine green, irrigate brown" until after I have hospitals...

So....

@ Mistfit: I'm going to 24-72 for you - post a got it, but take as much time as you need to take in all this stuff. (It's a lot, I know..)

@ NP - I'm going to step aside and let you steer the conversation from this point.

Ok, I like the sound of this worker merging. Before now, I had considered this tactic to be close enough to "dogpiling" for it to be considered exploitative in an SGoTM. However, I have just checked again in the RBCiv Tactics articles, and been pleasantly surprised :)

So second-ring cities with good growth sound like prime targets for rush granaries and worker production. My flippant comment about the Pyramids above should be disregarded ;)


@Np: a tiny point, and one born of curiosity only - when you talk about Bonn supporting a useful population, how many did you have in mind. Or is the answer to that question always "as many as it possibly can?"


Tal

Hmm, just taken a look at the save. Damn vanilla for not being able to see the details of trade agreements!! :gripe:

PTW next time ;)


Tal

Ok I'm back.... Good god this came back to me quick. Lots of stuff to digest so give me a a bit to take in the information and I will be back with my questions before picking up the game. BTW Great Job guys...This is certainly a different game then when I last played. Nice addition to the team!
Edit: Can someone post a screen shot of our FP ring? I do not have Civ on my work computer, and that is where I'm at at the moment

Edit: Can someone post a screen shot of our FP ring? I do not have Civ on my work computer, and that is where I'm at at the momentGlad you're with us Mistfit! :thumbsup:

Take your time with this, because there are a couple of things that could make your turns interesting. Here's the screencap:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2_Scout_FPRING.jpg

Nuremberg and Brandenburg are actually RCP9 from Berlin (Second ring capitol). I have no idea what they will look like when the FP is complete.

To grow past size 6, New Leipzig, New Munich, and New Hannover will need aqueducts, as will New Heidleburg and New Cologne.

Well, stone me. I always thought that all seven first ring FP cities were RCP 4. Now I see that Brandenburg is a rogue!

How did that happen? :confused:

Another, utterly non-urgent question for Scout... I assume you made that map with the Rings program from the CivReplay suite... How does one zoom in on that? I never have managed to find out, which makes for some fun, if eye-watering, close in gazing!

@Np: a tiny point, and one born of curiosity only - when you talk about Bonn supporting a useful population, how many did you have in mind. Or is the answer to that question always "as many as it possibly can?"


Good question. Now that you make me consider it, I suppose my subjective definition of a real, serious city is one of at least size ten. I think (without re-checking the save) that Bonn can eventually reach size fourteen, working six irrigated and railed grassland tiles, four hill tiles (including the city site), and five mountain tiles. Of course, if we're really good the game won't last long enough for our workers to get all that done. :lol:

Mistfit, welcome back. As Scoutsout says, take as much time as you need to absorb the changed situation, and ask any questions you like.

I think I have the gist of the worker pumps used to up the size of cities. (note to self: no stopping to improve tiles)

Has anyone come up with the answer for how to insure we don't get nationalism for our free tech?


To grow past size 6, New Leipzig, New Munich, and New Hannover will need aqueducts, as will New Heidleburg and New Cologne.

Should we switch these towns from what they are working on to the Aqueduct immediately or let them finish. I figure that I will take 20-30 turns to get all of the F.P. 1st ring cities up to size 6.

Edit: Is the reasoning behind this just to get the population up for score, or the few extra shields for producing courthouses on libs? Is it better to have all of the cities at size 6 or 1/2 of them at size 12?

Yes, Brandenburg fooled me too. :D Fortunately a rogue city that's too far from the capital/FP, rather than too close, doesn't matter.

Edit: Is the reasoning behind this just to get the population up for score, or the few extra shields for producing courthouses on libs? Is it better to have all of the cities at size 6 or 1/2 of them at size 12?


I don't think the score matters too much. But given these cities will be first ring to the FP, they will be nicely un-corrupt, so the bigger the better. To start with, we'll need plenty of science, and later on we will likely need a fair old army to take the UN from a strong AI...

@NP: thanks for the answer, makes plenty of sense :)

Has anyone come up with the answer for how to insure we don't get nationalism for our free tech?


I'm not sure there is a way, but since Nationalism has tremendous trade value, we'll have some reasonable options if it's our free tech. We could gift the Russians into the IA and trade Nationalism for their free tech, unless our luck is really foul and they draw it too. I'm not actually advocating this yet--it would depend on circumstances--but it's one possibility.

You raise a good question as to whether all those second-core cities should complete their libraries or switch to aqueducts. I'll look at the save and get back to you.

I see that Tallanas has basically answered your last question. The point of aqueducts and worker-merging in our second core is simply to get those cities up and running in time to play a real role in the game; the effect on our score doesn't matter much.

As far as rank corruption goes Brandenburg should still be considered a rank two because there are no cities closer to the capital than it is to the F.P.

Is it better to have all of the cities at size 6 or 1/2 of them at size 12?


The main point here is that it's generally better to merge workers into cities which have already reached size seven, since that way one trades the worker for forty food-equivalents rather than twenty. So in the situation currently existing in our second core, New Berlin, New Hamburg, and Brandenburg would receive any workers available for merging, with Leipzig and New Frankfurt becoming eligible soon (six turns). Only Brandenburg would be pumped beyond size nine, though, because only it could accomodate a tenth citizen without having to assign a specialist. The rule of not adding citizens who'd tip a city into unhappiness takes precedence over the size-seven rule.

Hmm, I seem to have overstated the number of our second-core cities still working on libraries. Anyway, New Cologne, New Hannover, New Munich, New Heidelburg, and New Bremen should switch from what they're building to aqueducts, although the aqueduct/marketplace decision is always tricky. The decisive factor here is that we have so many luxuries that our cities can remain happy at size seven and beyond without marketplaces. Also, Leipzig should switch from courthouse (unnecessary in a first-ring city) to marketplace.

:mad: I lost the first version of this post when the once-a-day ad popped up as I attempted to leave the reply page. Has anyone else had this happen? :mad:

I have not gotten a pop up ad in almost 9 months since I started to use Crazy Browser. at last check it had blocked 2300 of 'em

:mad: I lost the first version of this post when the once-a-day ad popped up as I attempted to leave the reply page. Has anyone else had this happen? :mad:Yes, I have. Not often, but it's annoying when it happens. Just like the culture flips usually happen to the cities with heavy garrisons, the once-a-day will never mess up a one-line post. The longer and more thoughtful the post, the greater the chance that the ad will mess it up.

:spear:

I wrote a huge post in the history forum on the ins and outs of Alexnader the Great's nationality. It was hugely informative, massively witty ( ;) ) and LONG! Hence of course, the pop up reared its ugly head and I lost the lot. My second attempt was quite dull, as I had lost enthusiasm :rolleyes:

Well I think I am up to date below is a list of things that I got from the thread (sorry if I've quoted you and not given credit). I think I am the low man on the totem pole here as far as experience so I just want to make sure I dont screw things up. I will be going home soon but I will play tonight (I Got It) after I look at the forum to make sure you agree with what I'm doing.

#1 Research: Set Queue to Magnetism and try to trade for Matallurgy, bringing us into the Industrial Age. Gift the Russians needed tech to trade for free ones, use discression on other Civ's to get them there too.

#2 Set Hannover and Nuremburg up for worker pumps, MM after every worker trained. Rush Granarys. Start adding workers into size 7 cities(New Berlin, New Hamburg, and Brandenburg. Making sure they can handle the food and happiness.

#3 Change New Cologne, New Hannover, New Munich, New Heidelburg, and New Breman switch to Aqueducts.

#4 Leipzig switch from courthouse to marketplace

#5 Keep a prebuild in Salzburg for wonder, adjust workers after mining done

#6 Use existing workers to get rid of jungle 1st in 1st core cities and work out making improvements to newly larger cities to maximize growth. (This is one point I may have missed, you are not suggesting that we take ALL of our current workers and join them to cities are you? Just the ones made out of our worker pumps, If I am reading you right) The others need to continue on improving our infrastructure.

Well Thats about it as far as I could read. I will look once more in about 2-3 hours from now to look for an update otherwise I will post tomorrow.

I think you have it there :)

The only thing I might say is that you could use one or two existing workers for the FP city - I think I'm right in saying it can take one or two more. Otherwise, they need to keep improving squares for the new worker-population types to USE!!

I look forward to seeing your turns :D

By the way, Scout, I've been trying to work that damn :spear: smiley into a post of mine since the start of this thread. You beat me to it!!

Curses!

Good point Tallanas

I know Scout has seen this message many times but I got a chuckle out of it when I got it. I guess I was typing too fast.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/typing_to_fast.jpg

1. It's a close call, but I don't think I'd gift the Russians into the IA until the French are in it already. Anything the Russians have the French will get, and there's a limit to how much we want to help the French before we nail down US and ToE.

5. Actually our palace pre-build is in Konigsberg now, and should give us Newton as soon as we get ToG. After that I'd go right back to the palace pre-build in Konigsberg. We won't really have another good pre-build until we qualify for Wall Street.

6. Yes, just merge the newly built workers from the two pump cities.

Apart from those points, :goodjob:.

This hasn't been mentioned before, but we seem to be giving the French spices for a paltry 4 gpt. You might as well cancel that deal.

This seems like a basic thing that I should know but how do I cancel the deal? I've never quite figured that excepting when the computer tells me that it wants to cancel one with me. sorry for the noob question but hell... it's not in the damnable instruction manual

@Mistfit: Open up diplomacy with joanie, click on "active deals" and pull up the lux. You should be able to re-negotiate it... perhaps as part of a deal for metallurgy....

I'll try that and you can skip the Pm thanks

Ok still not getting it. when under the diplomatic screen with active deals it does not show what we have traded to whom for how long. where to go from here?

OK I got that now how do we know that the deal has expired

Gimme a couple of minutes here...

ok never mind we are at war with the French now





Edit I now know how to do this...thanks Scout!!!!





Ok just kidding...back to playing

Kidding about the war, or kidding about knowing what you're doing?!?! :p

Either way, you owe me a glass of Merlot, which I must now wipe from various parts of my comptuer...

It got late so I only did seven tonight I will finish the rest tomorrow night and posts em late with the save. Any notes you might have on the rights and wrongs are always appreciated. (scout I figured the trade thing and no war...sorry about the melot, I'm a whiskey guy myself)

Ok pre turn:

Cancel deal on spices with the French. Shop it around and can only get 6 gpt and 90 gold back from the French. I will wait until next turn to see if she can do a bit better. Btw she was the best offer by far

the French already have metallurgy so I will set the queue to Magnetism and try to trade for Metal when we fer Theory of Gravity in 3 turns

Hannover gets a switch to Granary and rushed at the cost of 184 gold
Nuremberg the same for 56 gold

New Cologne gets changed to an Aueduct due in 96...this will get much better with the F.P.
New Hannover, New Munich, New Heidelburg, and New Bremen all get the same treatment

Switch Leipzig to a market due like in 2000 years or so...that too will change

IBT

Heidelsburg University --->Bank in 20
Nuremburg Granary ---> worker in 2 with a courthouse we would get it in 1
Hannover Granary ---> worker in 2

Turn 1 (930 AD)
worker movement - improve 1st ring cities (both rings)
Add one worker to FP city now size 9 FP due in 12

Joanie now willing to offer WM, 12 gold per turn and 22 gold, I accept
Gained 71 gold for our world map (note Gandhi and Joanie willing to pay 1 gpt for it, I did not take it, I remember Scout saying they need the GPT for research)

IBT

Cologne Musket ---> musket in 6

Turn 2 (840)
Worker moves
Start on Bonn Irrigation project
Turn down science save 139 gold ToG in 1
Golly it's nice not to have to worry so much about happiness (thanks Scout)

IBT
We get ToG go Magnet turn slider to 80% due in 4 +70gpt
Nuremberg worker ---> worker due in 2
Hannover worker ---> worker due in 2
Salzburg University ---> knight
New Leipzig finish Aqueduct starts market in 34
English building JS Bach

Turn 3 (950 AD)
Nuremberg worker to Brandenburg for upsize there in 2
Hannover worker to Hamburg for upsize there in 2

Deal ToG to France for Metallurgy 1 gold and WM the last 2 just because I could
I wait on the rest to see if I can pull Mil Trad from someone ya never know. < 100 avail
New Bonn gets a tax man
MM Nuremberg Growth in 2 worker in 2
Cant do much else in Hannover worker in 2 growth in 5 size 9 (note mined desert was not my idea, I did however road it)
Pull the trigger on Newton's 81 wasted

IBT
Berlin ---> rax due in 2 (this is kinda for lack of anything better to build)
New Munich ---> bank Knight in 7 may get changed if somthing better comes up
Set Konigsberg Newtons ---> Palace

Turn 4 (960 AD)
Workers work
Brandenburg worker joins city now size 9
Hamburg worker joins city now size 8

IBT
England and Russia sign peace
Frankfurt University ---> bank in 15
Nuremberg worker ---> worker MM again
Hannover worker ---> worker MM for growth in 2 worker in 2 should stay steady at size 8
Moscow built Sun Tzu
French building JS Bach
French Building Magellan
French Building Shakespeare's
English building Shakespeare's
Japanese building Js Bach
Japanese building Magellans
Japanese building Shakespeare's
Indians building Magellans
Indians building Shakespear's
Chinese building Shakespear's
These may have started last turn - my notes got a bit fuzzy

Turn 5 (970AD)
Hannover worker to Heidelburg there in 3
Nuremberg worker to New Leipzig there in 1 join next turn
France now has Mil Trad
Sell Metallurgy to Russia for 76 gold
China has ToG and no 13gold
India has Tog and no 1 gold
No one else has $

IBT
Berlin Rax ---> Knight in 5
Hamburg (BB in a min I'm hungry) University ---> Bank
Bremen Bank ---> cannon (i figure we'll want some artillary for eventual attack)
Bonn university ---> Bank
Magellans built in Reims (france)
Everyone building that went to Shake's
Lost our dyes

Turn 6 (980 AD)
Turn down Science to 60% save 106 gold Magnet in 1
New leipzig now size 8 (joined worker)
Sell China Metallurgy for dyes, WM, and 26 gold
Notice an open area down south so I change Berlin to a settler in hopes it's still there when I get there.

IBT
Get Magnetism ask for Steam (I screwed this up I guess it asked me to choose what I wanted to start on no the free tech cause we got Nationalism as our free tech)
Nuremberg worker ---> worker MM for 2 and 2
Hannover worker ---> worker Hmmm....can't figure how I mm'ed last time growth in 3 worker in 2
Keep building the west wing of our palace
China completed Shakes in Nanking (a size 2 city?)

Turn 7 (990 AD)
Start settler south east towards opening
Hannover worker to Hamberg there in 2
Nuremberg worker to New Hamberg there in 2
Sell Russia Magnets for 20 gold and WM
I'll Wait on the rest (It's 1:30 am and I get up for work at 4:30)
I'll save here and ask your oppinions on a few things and finish tomorrow night (tues)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/trades.jpg

Back, sorry for my unnanounced absence guys. I have some serious catching up to do. I'll read through what I've missed tomorrow morning & chime in with my $.02

Welcome to the team Northern Pike!

Mistfit: in the active sceen there will either be a number (for example (14)dyes) that tells you how many turns are left, or no number when the 20 turns have expired but the computer is getting a great deal so they won't cancel it.

Welcome back, GK :wavey:

=======================

This means that Mistfit will be ushering in the Industrial Age. I can't recall if you can manipulate the free tech in Vanilla or not... I know there was a time that Nationalism was always the free tech... it might be possible for us to get Steam Power if we set the queue to Nationalism after we learn Magnetism.

As far as I know, 1.29f made the free tech able to any of the 3 starters. In a recent game, two scientific nations got different starting techs when the Age changed over, so I assume it's not set in stone. Anyone know a sure fire way of getting the right one?

I will now revise that last statement... That game was in PTW... :coffee:
=======================

As for the turns so far, everything seems to be going well. The only thing I can maybe suggest is looking at our wines deal with Japan and trying to renew it for ToG or Magnetism, if it's near running out.

Thank god the war with France thing was a joke! Mind you, it got me thinking... How often have you seen AI Civs go to war immediately upon getting a decisive military tech advantage? They do it with IW, Chivalry, and MT.

So here's a question for the team. What should we do to safeguard our own position, and should we perhaps look to see if we could take advantage of any war with Russia? Moscow is a fat target now it has Sun Tsu's and the Pyramids...

Tal

Welcome back Gengis! Since I caught the reason for your absence in GK2, we'll make sure you have a chance to catch up. NP is in the order after Mistfit, so this won't come back to you until this weekend at the earliest...

Welcome Back Gengis!!! Great now I will get updates to the 30 or so SG's that I subscribe to that GK is in!! :lol:

As far as I can tell with the Free Tech at the turn of the Industrial Era you do kinda have a choice. Bill Nye the Science guy popped up and asked what I wanted to research. (At this point I was thinking this would be my free tech) My choices were mil Trad, Steam, and Nationalism. Had I chosen Nationalism I would have gotten Steam free, but I read it wrong so we ended up with nationalism. Not the best case senerio but like NP said it will make good trade bait. My plan is to wait a turn to see if Russia gets Steam (fingers and toes crossed). Trade France as much as I can get for selling them into the IA, getting MT out of the deal. Then turning around and trade Russia for steam if they get it for MT. Final note, I think the idea of not getting the most (gpt) out of the AI is not working. The next turn the AI trade between themselves and are broke again. Unless we want to become a totally philanthropic nation, and gift everyone evrey time we get a tech I think that we will be better served getting the most cash we can out of every deal to help finance our own research. We have 15 techs to get before we go to the Modern times.

For a mid and long term plan I would suggest the following :

The towns in our Empire that have a Lib, Uni, and Bank, and Courthouse if needed turn to Wealth. We will need the cash for Research and we can always cash upgrade our old units if the money is available.

The first 10 - 12 techs we get, sell to everyone we can, for as much as we can (With the F.P comming online there is no reason we shouldn't be able to be 1st to every tech in 4 - 5 turns a pc.) Once we get to the last 3-4 techs of the era stop selling them.

Once we get to the modern era try to get to Fission 1st (this should be no problem either) at that point gift France everything up to and including Fission to give her a head start on building the UN.

Stop researching as we will have 20-30 turns for her to build the UN and we don't want to help anyone get to space. With a spy in france we will need to keep track of her progress so on the turn she has completed the UN we can attack the town and the surrounding towns (raze these to help combat flip possibilities) then wait 11 turns for the vote to come up and win.

The only things I can see that would foul things up would be a war with someone. With us being a great trading partner I can't see that happening. The only other worry I have is France winning by culture. Scout said this rarely happens but with her have the most cash and typically building 3 - 4 wonders at a time I do not know. The other worry is that with us burning the way thru the Industrial era there will be a lot of wonders available so she may try to start building it in her 3rd or fourth best city.

As a side note:
Is there something in the rules that says that we can't build the UN gift it to someone weak like russia and then take it back from them? It would be quicker but prolly not playing to the intent of the variant.

These are just my thoughts. Please feel free to critisize, discuss or start other planning on what we will do. We have under 100 turns left of this game and I think we need a plan.

Unless we want to become a totally philanthropic nation, and gift everyone evrey time we get a tech I think that we will be better served getting the most cash we can out of every deal to help finance our own research. We have 15 techs to get before we go to the Modern times.If we have a monopoly on a tech, it's okay to hold it for a few turns, but once we trade it to one, it doesn't make sense to withhold it from the others. One or two AI should be able to pay a decent price. From there, trade it cheap or give it away, so that their research can be put to use on techs we don't have...The towns in our Empire that have a Lib, Uni, and Bank, and Courthouse if needed turn to Wealth. It is much to early to build wealth. Let those cities build barracks, harbors, and units. Build a few Galleons and map out the oceans. Build some Rifles, maybe a one or two more knights. We are weak compared to France, and we do not want to get attacked. The only things I can see that would foul things up would be a war with someone. Which is why we do not want to "build Wealth". The only other worry I have is France winning by culture. Not going to happen. It takes a LOT of culture to win that way, and with this tech pace, it will not accumulate in time. Is there something in the rules that says that we can't build the UN gift it to someone weak like russia and then take it back from them?The variant specifically states we cannot build the UN.

Yep, i think you made all the points I wanted to, Scout :)

Other than start building veteran units, in time for a big upgrade to modern untis with the cash we accumulate in the post-fission period...

If the city that the French build the UN in is on the water maybe we will get a first hand look at the finer uses of a Marine. We do have an X-pert on the subject among our ranks.

Well, Im off to play the last 5 turns. I hope the baby agrees with that plan. If so I will post around 10:00 - 12:00 EST this evening. Ok back to that war with France :lol: :lol:

I jsut read over the last couple pages I missed(like 8, you guys have been very busy :goodjob: ).

Amazingly I don't really have too much to add, sucks we lost Smith's to a cascade, but it happens. Amazing pace on the techs! :thumbsup:

As soon as I get my disk I'll check out the save & chime in with my $.02(it isn't easy to judge progress with logs alone). My only initial worry is that we're going overboard on barracks/units. This is cutting into out budget alot, and we need all the cash we can get(even if only to gift away surplus to the AI to increase their tech pace). Keep in mind that selling our techs for gpt while will help us a bit short term slows down the AI's pace(and effectivly takes them out of "the race." It's much better for us to have everyone getting a tech in 6-8, then us getting a tech in 4 & everyone else in 12, tech pace isn't determined by how fast "you" get techs, but by how fast everyone does.

Back to the barracks/units, regardless of whether we're attack or who we have to fight to take the UN, we don't need 50 Cavs & 30 Infs. We need a small group of Cavs(10 or so tops), a bit more Infantries(mabey 15-20), a nice size fleet of ships(just in case we have to go overseas for the UN), and a large group of arties. Artillary are the thing that will make a deffensive war stand, without taking casualties and losing cities. And since we'll only need to take 1(maybe 2 cities tops) when going after the UN we don't a large invasion force, some defenders a couple attackers & lots of artillary will give us the city quicker(which is the name of the game) then going overkill with CAvs.

Mistfit, good going so far. If you still have some of your round to play (Lauren before Joanie, of course :D), you might want to switch most of our first-core cities apart from Konigsberg to cathedrals/colosseums as factory pre-builds. I think this will help us more right now than producing an assortment of military units from those cities.

Gengis, I agree that we'll want a lot of artillery eventually--perhaps fifty, since you don't put a number on it. But other that that, I think you go too far in assuming that we'll only need an army sufficient to take one or two enemy cities. The truth is that the AI will build Wonders in some really strange places (possibly even with Great Leaders, since this is vanilla), and we just don't know. If the UN happens to end up in city A, which from our standpoint is behind cities B, C, D, and E, it will be much easier and quicker to take all five than to manoeuvre in the artificial way necessary to take A alone. (If you're interested in the difficulties that arise when the human team can't attack enemy cities in the tactically logical order, take a look at OFW2, the capital-killing SG.) It's also possible that wiping out the UN-building civ entirely, to remove an automatic vote against us, will look like a good idea at the time. So I don't really like the idea of trying to estimate the smallest army we can build and still win. I'd hate to see us do everything right until the military endgame and then lose a lot of time for lack of a strong army.

I'm generally in agreement with NP on the military thing... and will add that we've got Russia pretty well boxed in, and France usually gets adventurous at some point. A nice squadron of maybe a dozen Cavalry can be useful in the defense when coupled with that artillery stack. (Don't we have some Catapults that need upgrading or disbanding?)

Though I can't remember the formula off the top of my head, the math behind the military advisor respects units with a high attack value. I would like to get us to "Average" compared to France... I really don't want Joanie picking the time to fight...

...of course, maybe I'm just suffering from Bugs1 flashbacks....

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/scout_SG002_AD1030_01.SAV

Here's the save, nothing mind blowing in the last five, but I didn't get to read your comments on rax military. I will post turn log and pic's once I get my computer straightened out a bit

Ok pre turn I decide to sell magnets around the table

France --- WM, 180 gold, 55 per turn ( not even willing to sell MT straight up for magnet)
Russia --- WM, 27 gold
India --- WM, 1 gold (now gracious, we sold him ivory done in 3 turns)
England gets gifted ToG
Japan Gets gifted ToG
China gets nothing because our silk deal is up next turn so I will use tech to renegotiate
Only Liz , Mao and Toku not in IA

Steam set at 100% due in 5

IBT
China wants RoP and MPP...no thanks how about 5 gold...good now go away
English building something or another shakes I think

Turn 8 (1000 AD)
Worker gets added to New Leipzig now size 9 (bigest it can get without happiness help)
Worker joined to Heidelberg now size 8 ( lots of extra happiness here and still 3 extra food)
Workers working
Move settler SW

Well no luck on the Steam - Cathy must have pulled Nationalism for free and sold it immediately to Joan who is now broke

Trade Mao nationalism for Silks

India still down Nationalism and England and Japan down Magnet and Nation. My hope is one of the four buy MT so we can trade for Nationalism. It's worth a try for a turn or 2.

We have extra lux's for Joan and China but they have nothing to offer

IBT
Nada

Turn 9 (1010 AD)
Nuremberg worker --- worker due MM for 2 and 2
Hannover worker --- worker no MM needed down to size 7
Salzburg Knight --- rifle due in 7
Dortmund Rifle --- Uni
New Stutt Lib --- court due in 80
Nuremberg worker moves to Brandenburg there in 2
Hannover to Salzberg there in 3 (I put him on a goto because I'm afraid that I will forget and start working him on the way) so he may arrive there after my turns

IBT
Japan now wants MPP and ROP same deal as I gave Mao
Cathy's troops are moving around a bit by our borders, I don't know if this means anything but I thought I'd mention it
Cologne Rifle --- bank
Breman Cannon --- cannon
Stuttgart court --- uni
The French have built JS Bach in Marseilles size 6 city

Turn 11 (1020AD)
Workers work ( I notice "Mistfits Weedy Moment #2" I built a fortification NE of Frankfort, I've misclicked this when clicking the same thing for a stack of workers)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/More_weed.jpg
Move a pike out with the settler to head south to see if we can find a bit of land
Add worker to Brandenburg now size 9 can get this one to size 10
Trade Nationalism to India for Military Tradition even up he's now back to polite

IBT
Nuremburg worker ---worker MM for 2 and 2
Hannover worker --- worker in 2 cant do growth in less that 3 I have a worker working on the problem

Turn 12 (1030 AD)

I will start moving the Nuremberg worker to Brandenburg but the next player will have to move him the rest of the way and add him to the city (he's currently one tile NE of town)

The settler is just out of our territory on a MTN with a pike 3 tiles south of New Konigsberg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/settler_where.jpg
I will leave the worker in Hannover for the next player to move to the next city

There is a worker just NE of Salsburg that is intended for joining that city I don't think he is still on a goto but if he is I appologize

Science should be turned down to 90% with one turn left til steam we may need some of these workers to do railing instead of adding to cities.



I hope this is what we were looking for in my turns. Next up!!!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/N_rings.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/southern_ring.jpg

Mistfit, good going so far. you might want to switch most of our first-core cities apart from Konigsberg to cathedrals/colosseums as factory pre-builds. I think this will help us more right now than producing an assortment of military units from those cities.


Thank you. We could change out the banks in our sothern core for factories next turn Brandenburg is the only one that will have to be switched to something else before the next turn if you want to put one there.

In hind sight the banks are not a great idea because if I read it correctly they only increase the amount of money being made after science and upkeep. We will be at max or near max science for the res of the game

I notice "Mistfits Weedy Moment #2" I built a fortification NE of Frankfort

:lol:

Ah well, it may come in useful, at least it's near France ;)

Good turns though, the game is progressing so fast now that I hardly recognise it from my last set of turns! Everything is building up to a rapidly approaching climax!

who's up next NP?

Rapidly Approaching Climax? We still have at least 2 turns a pc if not more in this one.

Order of go:

Gengis Khan - On deck, getting back in the saddle
Tallanas Caesar - Warming up
scoutsout - on the bench
Mistfit - Just played
Northern Pike <---- Up

Let's continue with 12 turns/session for a while....

We should have a sweepstake as to how many turns there are left :)

At this rate, maybe 120? I'm actually tempted to go a bit lower than that, say 110...

At 12 turns a piece, that's only just 2 sets each! Can't wait to see how it turns out...

Mistfit buys in for 127.5 turns

Mistfit, well done on the worker-merging. :goodjob: Both our cores are looking a lot healthier now. Got it.

Any other takers for the sweepstake? The prize is only bragging rights, but still...

:mischief:

Thanks NP but you need to take the credit for that. I was just looking over the map of our island and thinking about one of Tallanas' suggestions abou taking some cities from Cathy. If we were to take Keiv, St Pete, and Moscow from her we would be in a whole lot better position to attack the French. (of course this is assuming the French get the UN)

Yes, I'll enter the sweepstake--after I've had a look at the save, but before I play.

1160 AD, end of turn (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/scout_SG002_AD1160_01.SAV)

1030 (0): The best guesses in the sweepstakes seem to be taken, so I'll be optimistic and choose 100 turns.

I don't think I'll send the settler to the open space SW of Sverdlovsk spotted by Mistfit. The problem is that we'd end up with a city difficult to defend in a war with France, Russia, or England--and losing cities in democracy, with the population very vulnerable to war weariness, is a real pain in the ___. But the settler won't be wasted--see below.

The Indians offer a trade of territory maps, which we accept.

We discover Steam Power and begin research on Industrialization, due in five turns at 100%, -4gpt.

As far as I can tell--it's easy to be mistaken about this--there are eight sources of coal in the world. Three are on the other continent, three are ours, one belongs to Russia, and one is still unclaimed near Funfkirchen. I'll try to claim the latter with our settler.

At some point we may have to let the French have some coal, but I think I'll wait until we're sure of US and ToE.


1040 (1): I adjust our core cities so that they won't complete anything before they can switch to factory builds.

We begin rail construction.


1050 (2): New Berlin finally completes the Forbidden Palace. I had a screenshot of this, but then I hit Print Screen a second time by mistake before saving it as a JPG. :lol:

1060 (3): The Chinese and the Indians go to war on the other continent. They share a long border, so this probably won't be a phony war.

I accept Joanie's offer of furs for incense and 20 gpt. Since it looks as though we're going to be able to control France's access to coal, speeding up the French research rate should be a win-win proposition.


1070 (4): Rail-building, worker merges, etc.


1080 (5): We discover Industrialization and begin research on Electricity, due in five turns at 90%, 35 gpt.


1090 (6): I switch 17 cities to factory builds.


1100 (7): New Salzburg and New Dortmund (island cities) library --> harbour.

We get two palace expansions.


1110 (8): The other civs aren't showing up with any new techs. The Chinese have fallen behind the Russia-India-France group, so I let them have Steam Power for 32 gpt, 31 gold, and their WM.

I renew our wines deal with the Japanese, sending them 17 gpt and Magnetism and bringing them into the IA.

Brandenburg factory (our first) --> university.


1120 (9): Konigsberg factory --> palace pre-build for ToE.

New Leipzig and New Hamburg marketplace --> factory.


1130 (10): We found Mistburg in the southeast, where it'll control the one unclaimed coal after a cultural expansion.

We discover Electricity and begin research on Medicine (since our rivals show no inclination to discover it for us, curse them), due in four turns at 80%, 35 gpt.

Leipzig marketplace --> factory.


1140 (11): Berlin factory --> Universal Suffrage.

New Berlin marketplace --> factory.


1150 (12): New Frankfurt marketplace --> factory.


1160 (13): I take a thirteenth turn, since it seems Mistfit only played eleven. Nothing much happens. ;)

I've concentrated the efforts of our workers on Berlin and Konigsberg (which are now basically optimized, until we get hospitals) this round, so that these two cities can build US and ToE for us as quickly as possible. Once US triggers our GA, we should be able to research whatever we want at the four-turn minimum.

BTW, we mustn't cut down the remaining forests within Konigsberg's city radius at the moment, just in case anyone was thinking of it. If the shields from a chop were credited to the palace pre-build we wouldn't be allowed to switch to a Wonder.

The other civs didn't discover a single tech new to us this round. I suspect they're obeying the AI's obsession with government techs, and slowly researching Communism. Once we've built US and ToE, we should be able to go a lot further in terms of giving our rivals everything they don't have. But our own civ's tech pace is going to be so fast for the rest of the game that I wouldn't be surprised if we never get another required tech from the AI civs.

We need to discuss how we're going to exploit the fact that the French don't have coal. (The rest of you should check my conclusion here, though, since--I'll repeat--it's easy to make mistakes about this.) We could let them have coal at some point (probably fairly soon, if we're going to do it all), or we could just try to make sure that the Russians build the UN. Russia's major cities are much closer to us than France's, after all.

The worker-merging program is going well, and should continue for the forseeable future.

Frankfurt and Heidelburg should build banks when they complete their factories. This should make us eligible for Wall Street (which we should perhaps build in Brandenburg, although there are various good candidates.)

Some of our second-core cities may seem to be a good way from completing their factories; but with worker merges, rail-building, and the replacement of some of their irrigation with mines, it shouldn't take too long. It's the mining of irrigated tiles that's easy to overlook. Some of the cities in question are stuck at size six anyway, and the others can receive worker merges, so food surpluses don't matter much.

Our core now:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2-1160AD.JPG

This is beautiful NP! :thumbsup:

This absolutely cracks me up - I'm looking at Heidleburg, Munich, Hamburg (undefended) Berlin (warrior) Salzburg (catapult) and Bonn (Swordsman) and Frankfurt (Spearman)
:rotfl:
We are definitely playing more to the scientific trait than the militaristic....

Looking good guys, I do have a couple slight concerns but I'll address them when I open the save.

Got it, and praying my disk comes today.

Great turns NP!

I have a couple of thoughts. First, blistering tech pace, well done all :goodjob:

Second, is it my imagination or is the Orange part of the map slowly disappearing... If so, we may need to umm... adress the number of AIs left with two arms to vote with, so to speak :mischief:

Great looking turns NP :rockon:

1120 (9): Konigsberg factory --> palace pre-build for ToE.

Out of curiosity sake what happened to the previous palace prebuild in Koni - it got changed to a factory? Did we gain that much from the factory that we could afford to waste the turns of the previous pre-build? Please don't take offense to this question I just would like to know your thought process here to better my game.

The other civs didn't discover a single tech new to us this round. I suspect they're obeying the AI's obsession with government techs, and slowly researching Communism. Once we've built US and ToE, we should be able to go a lot further in terms of giving our rivals everything they don't have. But our own civ's tech pace is going to be so fast for the rest of the game that I wouldn't be surprised if we never get another required tech from the AI civs.

I agree. I think the only thing we can hope for is to pick up some of the Non-requisite techs like sanitation from them. This is why I said lets get the most out of them as possible to help our cash situation.

1160 (13): I take a thirteenth turn, since it seems Mistfit only played eleven. Nothing much happens.

It takes me so long per turn with my indecision and trying my dangdest not to miss something I can certainly see myself miss counting. But wasn't there 12 posts in my turn log?

This absolutely cracks me up - I'm looking at Heidleburg, Munich, Hamburg (undefended) Berlin (warrior) Salzburg (catapult) and Bonn (Swordsman) and Frankfurt (Spearman)

It's not that bad Tal we DO have a 1 rifleman in Cologne :D

Betting Pool
Mistfit 127 - 13 = 114
Tallanas 110 - 13 = 97
Northern Pike 100 - 13 = 87 :twitch: edited for poor math I though we got that tech a long time ago
Scout ?
GK ?

Great looking turns NP I agree. I think the only thing we can hope for is to pick up some of the Non-requisite techs like sanitation from them. This is why I said lets get the most out of them as possible to help our cash situation.Sanitation is a pretty powerful tech. IMO, its the most important dead-end tech of the Industrial Age.

I think we need to make it a priority to acquire the dead-end techs, just to keep the AI from wasting their gold on them. Some techs that might make good trading fodder for this include Medicine and Sanitation. We've already got Nationalism; leaving Communism and Espionage...

We need to get all of the world's research directed towards the Modern Age.

Betting Pool
Mistfit 127 - 13 = 114
Tallanas 110 - 13 = 97
Northern Pike 100 - 13 = 77
Scout ?
GK ?

I'm going tto bet.... 118 on the pool; 105 from this juncture.

I agree that Sanitation is a powerful tech (hospitals). But that being said I don't think that we should research it ourselves. My plan would be to keep on the required techs and let the AI pick up the non-requisite techs and just trade for them. Even if we never got hospitals (which I don't think will happen) we could still win this race to the Modern Era.

Edit:
I'm going tto bet.... 118 on the pool; 105 from this juncture.
Thanks for the vote of confidence. That would put the win during my turns :D

Betting Pool
Mistfit 127 - 13 = 114
Tallanas 110 - 13 = 97
Northern Pike 100 - 13 = 77
Scout ?
GK ?

:eek: 100-13 is 77, huh? ;)

*cough*

So, at the moment we have...

Mistfit 114
Tallanas 97
NP 87
Scout 105


I can see why Scout wants the slight delay of us researching dead end techs, rather than letting the AI do it. He knows that this won't last more than 100 turns, and is trying to spin it out!!

:mischief:

I guess I need more :coffee:

:blush: This may have somthing to do with the reason I never got out of the 3rd grade. Which BTW is considered an advanced degree in Northern MI

How are we fixed for troops? I'm a little worried that we're vulnerable. We need to make sure we stay on the best of terms with Russia and France.

Don't empty their treasuries completely in tech trades (if you bankrupt a civ they can declare war on you just to get out of the GPT...)

I think we should build some rifles, with an eye towards upgrading to Infantry. We need to inventory our obsolete units and either upgrade them or (SLOWLY) disband them. I'd like a small squadron of roughly 1-2 dozen cavalry to skirmish in the defense, just in case. We need to continue building Galleons, because ship chaining is regarded as an exploit under RBCiv rules... if we ever have to fight a war overseas, we will need lots of transports. Better to upgrade than to build... because of the tech pace, our shipyards will need to build destroyers when Combusion becomes available.

Believe it or not, we might actually need Marines in this game. The AI seems to like researching Amphibious Warfare...so when we get close to Fission, we may want to see if that tech becomes available for trade...

If France gets the UN and we can't secure RoP with Russia, we might need to go AROUND Russia... If the UN gets built overseas we might want to consider a real "Blitzkrieg". Take a coastal city on the opening turn of the war and proceed inland immediately with Panzers...

We need to devote some careful thought to endgame, it is drawing near. Mutual Protection Pacts can make it touchy. We might be forced to declare war on somebody and wait for them to come after us first, to avoid a dogpile on us....

:lol:

i thought it was a typo, heaven knows I make enough of them, especially in my posts in the history forum...

I once called the great JC "Juli Caesar" :eek:

My post above was @ Mistfit's, but Scout got in there too quick ;)

@Scout's...

Yeah, we will need more military soon, I can just sense France becoming alarmed at the gpt deals and our tech dominance.

Also I would ask this - is it time we started "grooming" France as the UN builder? You know, preferential tech gifts etc? Late on, we should avoid giving Fission to anyone but France. I think that Joanie will want the UN enough not to trade that tech away. If we have left everyone else one or two techs behind, the game might be over before the other continent even has Fission...

"Grooming France"... I like that idea. What do the rest of you guys think? I wonder if Tal might have hit on something here...

Anonymous Quote
The first 10 - 12 techs we get, sell to everyone we can, for as much as we can (With the F.P comming online there is no reason we shouldn't be able to be 1st to every tech in 4 - 5 turns a pc.) Once we get to the last 3-4 techs of the era stop selling them.

Once we get to the modern era try to get to Fission 1st (this should be no problem either) at that point gift France everything up to and including Fission to give her a head start on building the UN.

This is a quote from someone a few pages back. :mischief:

So yeah I think it's a dandy Idea :goodjob:

:lol:

Anonymous quote indeed!

My post was more about the timing (i.e. is there anything we can do now?), but I got carried away a little and that meaning seems to have vanished!

Edit: having re-read my post, I realise it was also a veiled reference to Scout's worries about naval forces... i.e. if we make sure France has it, we shouldn't need too many!

It's scary how worthless that above post of mine was! Still, Scout liked it, so that's something! :lol:

Will the AI build the UN even if they know they won't be calling for a vote. Example: will France build the UN even if they know that we are the biggest and best liked civ out there.

I believe so, if only to control it...

I can honestly say that I have never played a game in which an AI has built the UN.

I thought I'd take a moment to inject a little humor in here. Background: From time to time, another team leader and I have had (non-spoilered) communications on various topics. Occasionally we will discuss SGOTM2, and exchange... "politely worded cheap shots".

Here's his latest:


Your team obviously has a cunning plan for a late spurt to wipe us all out ;)

And my reply:


Yes, our plan is nothing short of brilliant. After figuring out Mad-Bax doesn't care for Ramen Noodles, we came up with a better bribe to get MB to turn this into a PBEM. You will all be receiving your copies in e-mail on July 13. Your turns will begin as the leaders of Burgundium, having just built the UN in your capitol. Our Panzer Stacks of Doom will be parked just outside the city's gates.

what is a pbem?

what is a pbem?"Play By E-Mail". Turn based multiplayer that became available with Play The World.

Got some good news guys....................... my diseth has ariveth! [dance]

Will be checking out the save within the hour, barring intallation time.

Your turns will begin as the leaders of Burgundium, having just built the UN in your capitol. Our Panzer Stacks of Doom will be parked just outside the city's gates.

:lol:

You almost gave the game away!

In fact, isn't that our plan?? ;)

Sorry for the double ;)

Great news GK!! Welcome back fully! Sorry to hear about your house getting burgled - that absolutely sucks :sad:

Good to hear GK

Here are the available trades at from the last post

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/trades1.jpg

When did we get Military Tradition? I don't recall seeing that in the logs...

NP raised a good point with respect to France and her lack of coal. Do we want to exploit that? My initial inclination is to sell is cheap. This will make her less inclined to attack us, and get her going on the rails she'll need for a nice productive city to build the UN in...

Also, we might want to think about gifting England and China to parity. Gifted techs make for HUGE boosts in AI attitude...

Sanitation... we probably need to be prepared to self-research sanitation. Maybe if we hold off on trading any more monopoly techs we can research Sanitation and/or Replaceable Parts and trade for Corporation.

Out of curiosity sake what happened to the previous palace prebuild in Koni - it got changed to a factory? Did we gain that much from the factory that we could afford to waste the turns of the previous pre-build? Please don't take offense to this question I just would like to know your thought process here to better my game.


Yes, and yes. US costs 800 shields, while a factory costs 240 shields and increases the city's shield output by 50%. So if you do the math, building the factory first brings the completion of the Wonder closer--only by a little (the relevant ratio is 773/800, I think), but then you have the factory as well as US at the end of the process. Of course, this assumes that there's no loss of shields involved in the switch from pre-build to factory, which there wasn't in this case; Konigsberg only had about 100 shields accumulated at the time.

No offense taken--I'm glad to explain my logic, when it exists. ;)

On the (completely unimportant) issue of your eleven-turn round, you numbered 1010 AD correctly as turn 9, but then numbered 1020 AD as turn 11.

Scoutsout, are you sure that the RBCiv exploits list applies to this game? I thought we were only limited by the GOTM list--although it's hard to know, since the potentially relevant posts are scattered all over the place. It's vital that we should get this straight, since ship chaining is allowed by the GOTM list, and would save us a lot of time if the UN ended up on the other continent.

I'm not completely against helping the French get the UN when the time comes, but why are we so locked into that idea? Our protege civ doesn't have to be strong overall to build the UN, it just needs a few good cities, and the Russians--the closer Russians--satisfy that requirement.

Scoutsout, are you sure that the RBCiv exploits list applies to this game? I'm 100% sure. SGOTM1 was played "according to (Mad-Bax's) interpretation of RBCiv rules", and I have not seen anything that indicates this has changed. Ship-chaining is, IMO, one of the most important differences between the GOTM rules and the RBCiv rules. Ship-chaining is also one of my favorite things to do... I think if I go through the trouble and expense of all that planning and pre-positioning, I ought to be allowed to do it...doing it right does take some effort of its own... but the RBCiv crowd regards it as an exploit.

I'm not completely against helping the French get the UN when the time comes, but why are we so locked into that idea?We're not at all locked into that idea... and you're right, it would be WONDERFUL if it was built in Russia. It's just that the French tend to be a late-game powerhouse...

If we were to gift all the AI to perfect parity, and do nothing to "groom the French", my money would be on France to complete the UN.

Having said that, I wonder if we ought to groom Russia instead....

(Edit: In my first post to the thread I put a lot of 'rules' stuff in there... there's a paragraph on RBCiv with links if anyone cares, and there's a paragraph in there where I discuss ship chaining and palace jumping...)

I don't have the time to look into it right now, but the fact that we're both remembering SGOTM1 references to the RBCiv exploits, rather than anything explicitly said about this game, makes me suspicious. We need to pursue this issue--or better still, are you lurking, Mad-bax? Karasu?

I stand corrected. In this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1843672&postcount=20) Mad-Bax clearly states that we will be playing according to GOTM rules.

Ship chaining is in. My apologies.

You could play to RBCiv Rules to get a bonus in SGOTM1.

It has now been decided that for future SGOTM's that there will be an award for best Jason score, an award for lowest Jason score and and award for victory in the fewest turns (relative to best Jason date) for a "sponsored" variant.

Therefore RBCiv rules no longer apply at least to this game. (They may become woven in to a variant at some point in the future).

GOTM rules apply, and ship chaining is permitted.

Trade Nationalism to India for Military Tradition even up he's now back to polite

from turn 9 ish, my turn set

Thanks Mistfit - got it now. I feel better knowing we can have some Cavalry on hand. As Gengis can attest... I'm "rather" fond of fast units. :D

Well, there we all were thinking ship chaining was verboten...

Let's have an expert run-through as to how to use ship chaining to its full effect, I doubt that my idea of having 2 fleets for double movement (or 3 for treble with fast units) is the be all and end all of ship chaining...

Ship chaining lets you take a group of troops(provided they start in a city & end in a city on another continent) get on a ship, jump ships a few dozen times, travel the entire ocean, unload in a city with movement left, and enter battle all that same turn. Provided you have enough ships in the right places of course.

Just got back in, will check out the save momentarily & post pre-turn thoughts after dinner.

[edit- And I tend to agree with the group concensous. If I take the time to set up & guard 8 galleons/transports, that I sure as hell deserve to be able to move troops faster.:lol: ]

I thought moves between ships cost one movement point?

[offtopic] Oh, by the way, no one in this thread is allowed to mention:

1) Soccer

2) Swiss referees

3) Portugal...

[pissed] :gripe: :thumbdown

They do........... if you move the troops.

However, if both Galleons are in the same square, you can wake the transported & the load them into the other galleon(with full movement), then proceed to your next ship that's set up. Rinse & repeat until you hit the other side.

Ah! So that's the trick...

[offtopic] Oh, by the way, no one in this thread is allowed to mention:

1) Soccer

2) Swiss referees

3) Portugal...

[pissed] :gripe: :thumbdown

How about the words

1.) football

2.) Penalty kicks

3.) Darius Vassell

Are these disallowed as well? I just wanted to check so I dont upset anyone.

Very much disallowed.

Like that perfectly legitimate goal.

Well after looking at the save for like 2 hours(a whole lot has changed), I'm ready to start.

I think we're pretty well set as far as our military goes(actually I think we have far more then we need, but I'll compromise and not disband anything or build more then artillary). Keep in mind, fighting a defensive war with railroads down is one of the easiest things to do in this game(especially in the age of cavalry).

I'm going to put "operation worker merge" on hold for a bit while we finish up those railroads & rearange our terrain for hospital use.

Anyone care if I do something drastic, we've got some far off pointless towns that aren't serving any purpose(like 8-10). They're putting us even further over our OCN, we're having to defend them when those same units could be better served elsewhere , they're extending our already vast borders, and between the troops guarding them and improvements in them they're costing for gold then they're making.
We're not going for domination, so any town that is costing us money & not strengthening our position in some way has got to go.

Any objections, thoughts or ideas?

@Gengis: Don't disband anything on those tundra islands. I strongly suspect those are there for a reason, and I suspect that reason is oil. (We actually don't have a lot of desert...)

As far as the other towns go... I'd like to know which ones you are talking about. I remember settling one outside the second ring that claims some Ivory. I wouldn't let that go... There's one up north that claims an incense. I wouldn't let that one go either. It seems like there's another that NP rushed a cultural improvement in to claim some coal....

If we keep the tundra islands, and keep the towns that claim a lux or resource, how many towns are we talking about? If they're jungle towns, shouldn't we at least hang on to them until we know where the rubber is?

Is oil even that nessasary? Worst case senario, we don't have oil & have to trade for it? That money just goes into someone elses research. Is a chance at having oil worth throwing away 10+gpt from those cities from now till Refining? IMHO no, but I'll go with the group.

I'm not going to abandon any city that has a luxury, but thats few cities and far more are just there for no reason.

Hang on to Jungle towns?? You do remember what our start was like? Half our towns were jungle towns. Due to the resources being placed in the very begining of the game, any jungle(with rubber) that has alreadt been chopped down when we get Rep Parts will still contain rubber. It's just we won't have a chance to catch rubber respawning in non-jungle tiles. I don't think rubber will even remotly be a problem.

Just as a crazy off the cuff suggestion. Could we gift the cities on the island that we no longer feel we need to the English so they don't get wiped out?

I would only do that if it meant the survival of England, and only after we discover Refining. I am convinced that one of those two islands will have oil.... though knowing my luck, it will be under that crappy little Japanese town.

You know, it's a good thing this isn't Vanilla, or we might have to deal with Portugal, and perhaps the Dutch, with their Swiss Refer... er, um, I mean, Swiss Mercenaries...

Currently England is in control of 83 tiles so we may need to eventually intervene. I can't remember if she is currently at war with France or not. But the last I knew Joanie was trying to "Sock Her" around.

Nice avatar Scout :goodjob:

That's actually a really good idea mistfit.

So does that mean I can selectivly disband a city or two?

What are the effects of being over the OCN (optimal city number?)
Are the effects worth giving up territory?
How many cities are we over? (I believe we currently have 38 cities)

Drastically increased corruption. OCN(in addition to distance corruption) is an effort by firaxis to give smaller empires a chance against larger ones.
I don't really see an advantage to having a large amount of territory, besides our rings & those couple extra lux/resource cities.
I have no idea, there's an OCN calculator around here somewhere but I've never used it.

@Mistfit: Exceeding the OCN will disproportionately increase corruption.

@Gengis: IIRC, this is a "Large" map... so our OCN should be a little higher... (I don't recall exactly how to get the OCN...)

As far as "abandoning selected cities" goes... I don't really like it, but I follow your logic. As long as we are giving up nothing but some crappy jungle, I don't mind it... but I don't want to give up any tundra (yet) and I don't want to give up anything that claims a resource.

IIRC, we don't have anything like that over near England...the cities to the West and Southwest either fit into a ring, or claim something. Giving England something she can't defend might not really help her much... It seems like we have some unclaimed land to the NE of our core. We could settle that and gift it to Lizzy... at least that way she'd have us for a buffer zone between her and France/Russia. (I believe it was Russia that smacked England around for a pretty good long while in this game...)

Alternatively, we could check to see what England's resources look like, if we're looking at propping up England.

Sorry for the double... I found an OCN calculator. I will post an Edit here when I have the magic number.

Edit: According to the discussion thread, this is a "standard" map, which seems a little hard for me to believe.

According to MapStat, we have 37 cites. According to the OCN calculator, our OCN is 25.

Something else to consider: With our current level of settlement, we claim 26.7% of the world. The 25% threshold is of strategic importance in a diplomatic win.

I am starting to think that abandoning cities is not really going to help us much from a strategic standpoint. I don't think abandoning one or two cities is going to help our corruption much, and I don't think we could abandon 12 without giving up a strategic edge somewhere else.

Another factor to consider - this map has a pretty good amount of land, about 36% of the world is land, or about 300 more tiles of land than the map in GOTM31... that's room for 14 more OCN spaced 21-tile cities...

per Gainy bo on quick answers:
he said 28

Is the increase in corruption the same if you are 1 over or 10 over?

Scout: 25% of the land/population is only the magic number if you don't own it. We've already pretty much decided we're taking it by storm just to make sure a vote gets called ASAP. You can have 1% of the land and if you have control of the UN, you'll be on the ballet.

Bottom line is cash is the single most important thing in this variant at this stage in the game, we're throwing alot of gpt away.

Mist: I'm of the impression that it compounds, but not positive.

I'm going to back out of this disscussion because we are into things over my head. My only note would be to wait until NP and Tal can chime in to get their oppinions. NP seems to post mostly in the evenings, and I think Tal is lurking (and pouting) thru the day.

:gripe:

I'm still sulking, and I will also be away all weekend. So unless you can't play the next turns this weekend, can I request a swap, Scout? I think I'm up after GK, right?

Here'a a surprise. The referee in that England vs Portugal has a Portuguese wife, apparently... :rolleyes:

@Tal: I feel your pain, believe me I do. Last fall my team lost to kid brother #1's team in September, then to kid brother #2's team in November. November brought the longest Thankgiving holiday of my life.

We'll figure out something on the order-of-go. I might even leave it alone, since the 12-turn sets (and last weekend's little flurry) seem to have caught us up a bit.

Heh, I guess it happens to us all at some point, Scout. :rolleyes:

Now we need a :grumble: smiley, as I'm past the :gripe: stage...

If Sunday night is soon enough to play, then that's ok. If not, you and I could jsut swap, but whichever we do, I'm sure we've made up a fair bit of ground recently ;)

I think Sunday will be fine. We're far enough along that one day isn't going to kill us. I think Gengis is taking his time to analyze this one anyway...

Actually I'm just waiting for NP to chime in before I start bulldozing cities. ;)

Mad-bax, belated thanks for the clarification on ship chaining and the relevant exploits list. I like chaining because without it, the game fails to model one of the basic facts of history: that until the development of railroads, travel by water was far quicker and more economical than travel by land.

Gengis, thanks for waiting, and I'm sorry that my response to your idea isn't more positive. You clearly think systematically about how to save every possible gp in a given situation, and I respect that approach a lot. But I don't think that we should be abandoning cities at the moment, for the reasons already given by others and for these ones:

1. Since we still don't know what we'll need to do militarily when the time comes, I don't like the idea of losing tactical options by giving away territory. For example, Tallatown and Talsburg are probably on your list of useless cities, but they'll be important ports if we find ourselves ship chaining to the other continent.

2. Our research capacity is so strong that it's possible we'll discover every tech we pursue for the rest of the IA in the minimum four turns. (Remember, our GA arrives in fifteen turns, with US.) From this perspective, it's not necessary to squeeze every possible gp out of our position at the expense of other considerations.

3. As far as the OCN issue is concerned, I don't see that corruption is hurting us much, since we don't have a great many second-ring cities, and the ones we do have aren't badly corrupt. The cities which would benefit most from a reduction in our CN might be the ones we'd have to abandon to achieve that reduction. ;)

Tallanas, I know the only thing which gladdens an Englishman's heart as much as an English victory is a French humiliation, so I hope you're feeling better now. :lol:

Much better, thank you!

Actually, the main reason I am glad the French are out is that they have been playing awful football... Imho, the Czechs have played the best, most attractive flowing football, so I am now behind them :)

Go Czech Republic!

By the way, just in case you guys from the US don't get the full picture of the whole soccer thing, France losing to Greece at football is on a par with America losing to Yemen at baseball. :D

By the way, just in case you guys from the US don't get the full picture of the whole soccer thing, France losing to Greece at football is on a par with America losing to Yemen at baseball. :DThat's even funnier than the Soccer War!

Alright, I'll refrain from razing. *grumble grumble* :lol:

I'll try to get it played tonight, but might have to procrastinate finishing up till the morning.

That's even funnier than the Soccer War!

Ah yes, the Soccer War!

From memory, it was two South American countries who were old, old rivals... or was it Latin America? Bah, can't remember!

Bolivia and Paraguay? Venezuela and Colombia?

Put me out of my misery Scout!

El Salvador vs. Honduras, 1969.

Thank you ;)

By the way, just in case you guys from the US don't get the full picture of the whole soccer thing, France losing to Greece at football is on a par with America losing to Yemen at baseball. :D

I don't mean to rub salt in the wound but I am not a soccer fan so what is the American Equivilent of the English loosing to the Portugal?

Boston loosing to Yankee's? Vice versa?

Edited out - answered the wrong question.

I was thinking... Michigan Wolverines losing to the Vanderbilt Commodores in the Rose Bowl...but that might be a little extreme... Maybe Michigan losing to Indiana in C.F.

It can happen, (and probably has in the past) but it's "not really supposed to..."

Portugal, like the Netherlands, has traditionally produced a surprising amount of soccer talent for a small country. (I suppose the parallel would be with the Dominican Republic in baseball.) So England's loss wasn't particularly disgraceful.

Did GK give us his guess on turns to completion?

What do you think of the new Avatar? Seemed fitting to me. Lyonesse is a pro at Avatars. Have you all snooped her thread? I know GK got his there as well.

Did GK give us his guess on turns to completion?I'm surprised somebody hasn't started a pool on when GK will finish his turns. :p

I like the new Avatar. I seem to remember briefly seeing a diiferent jester avatar... I guess you weren't completely happy with that one.

This one is cool but a little on the evil side.

Yaa shuddup! I have a bad habit of giving estimates of when I would finish the turns, then having someone show up & getting dragged off to the beach or a party. But since Tal is out of town to till tonight, no rush right. ;)

"A little on the evil side?" Pennywise ain't got nothing on that jester.

But since Tal is out of town to till tonight, no rush right. ;)Beaches, parties... I should have your problems. :rolleyes:

Just remember, Tal's on the other side of the pond from us - so move Mickey's little hand ahead 4 hours, and you'll see that his "night" is not far off... ;)

I'm back!

What a fun but exhausting weekend... It's all very well driving 200 miles to go celebrate a friend's 30th, but getting 9 hours sleep over 2 nights and then driving back at 1am is quite tiring. :)

And still no turns from GK!! What is he doing?? :mischief:

On to other things...

Nice avatar Mistfit :clap: - I must agree with Gengis that's it's more than a little evil. I've always had a thing about clowns/jesters, though :aargh:

Speaking of avatars, I'm going to have to make a real effort to get to 300 posts so I can get me one. Guess I just don't post enough. Then again, as Tyler would say, "You are not your post count!" ;)

As for Portugal. They are actually a decent side - Luis Figo is world class, if getting on a bit, and Cristiano Ronaldo is extremely talented. They also have home advantage of course, which is not something to be taken lightly in soccer - just look at how well Japan and South Korea did in the last World Cup!

There were 16 teams in the finals of this tournament, and I would probably have rated them around 7th or 8th best. England I would have said were around 4th or 5th seed. So it's not too much of an upset really. Greece are the real surprise team. I can only name one Greek player from memory, and that's because he plays his football in England. Whilst other countries ahve become focussed on individuals within the team (Rooney or Beckham for England, Henry for France, Figo for Portugal etc), they just play as a team. No superstars, just excellent attitude. It's working for them. But unluckily they are up against the Czechs next. They are also a good unit, but they have much better players...

Anyway, enough soccer!

Welcome back Tal..

My vote for GK goes to June 29th at 12:36 a.m.

Anybody got a long-term weather forecast for coastal North Carolina? Say... from Cape Fear to Cape Lookout?

If it calls for rain, put me down for 0600Z on 29 June.

If it calls for sun, put me down for Tal picking this up sometime on 30 June.

If it calls for women, we may be down to four...

:rotfl: Slack off once and all of the sudden everyone has jokes.

12 turns still or what?

Yes - 12 turns please.

Flight Check Wow, a lot sure has changed.

While I like the idea of using workers to repopulate other cities, and often use it in my games, I don’t think the time of railroads is exactly the right time to get rid of workers. I put that on hold.

Military Report: 37 workers, 8 warriors, 1 archer, 12 spears, 2 swords, 8 pikes, 1 musket, 5 cavs, 2 rifles, 7 cats, 1 cannon, & 2 caravels. Ugh, and I mean with a capitol Ugh. Our military is not only huge, but also largely obsolete. I compromised on disbanding cities, so this one is mine! I’m going to upgrade some of our military, and get rid of the rest.

We offer Joinie Industrialization & Electronics, she replies that she can pay 160g, & 130gpt. Far too much sweet maiden, we’ll take that 160g & 30gpt though. *Big note, joinie also lacks coal, however since all it will do is increase her production we should keep her from getting any for awhile. BUT when she gets medicine we should gift her coal because the AI is irrigation happy, and that extra food will shoot her population aka gold through the roof.*

Off to visit madam Cathy, she offers 190g & 75gpt for Ind/Elec. Again we’re much more humble then that. We’ll happily take 190g, 25gpt & we’ll even throw in Iron & spices. *We had an extra iron, and while normally it’s not smart to trade away your only back up supply of iron in the age of rails, we have 2 back up(unconnected) mines. If one of ours depletes we’ll at most be without iron for a couple turns while I get workers up there to connect it. Cathy has SP, coal but no iron, she defiantly needs that iron incase Joan gets antsy again.*

Next I dial up poor poor Lizzy, I sell her Magnetism for 75g. Then gift her up to parity. *England is effectively crippled, and will never again be powerful enough to research a tech. From this point on we should concentrate on keeping her alive, and make sure she can defend herself to preserve another vote that will surely go in our favor. I also love Mistfits(I think) idea about gifting her a city that’s protected by us.*

I talk to our favorite passivist, Gandhi(who’s at war with Mao). Offer him the same, he’ll part with dyes 60gpt & 16g. You need that money to fend off the evil Chineses, take what we offered & ivory for only your dyes & 20gpt.

Mao has no money or gpt, so we just give them to him.

Toka is broke and backwards. We take his 7g and give him Steam, Elec, Nationalism, Industrial, & spices.

Back to France to renegotiate our spices deal, it was 12gpt I downgrade it to 10(she’s willing to pay 35gpt). *This will ensure she can’t just cancel off this deal then attack without losing something.*

Now to spend those hard earned gains. I upgrade 7 catapolts for 280g. Upgrade 9 spears for 1080g. Next round I start disbanding warriors & swords, because our new rifles will be in position. The round after that the knights get the upgrade. This way I’m semi-compromising with scout, I’m reducing the total number of units we have while at the same time increasing our power in the AI’s eyes. Happy?;)

Switch New Berlin(FP site) from factory to library. (I’m sorry but when a city doesn’t have a library and is pulling in 32 gold, that’s just a waste.)

Rush Courthouse in New Stuttgart for 260g.

Rush Courthouse in New Newremburg for 80g.

Switch from Factory to aqueduct in New Cologne, then rush for 112g.

Switch from Factory to aquecut in New Munich, then rush for 28g.

Switch New Heidelburg from factory to Aqueduct.

This brings up Rule # 2 for playing in SGs with me…….. You leave me with a pile of money, and it won’t be there when you get the save back.:lol:

IT Frankfurt: factory>bank (for whoever said banks weren't important, keep in mind that our lux slider probably won’t hit 100% for awhile, and especially since each round we’ll most likely be able to turn it down a bit. Put those together and banks will easily pay their maintenance costs and then some.)
Nuremburg: worker>worker
Hannover: worker>worker
Branndonburg: uni>bank
N Heildelburg: duct>library
N Munich: duct>harbor (this city is on the coast, we need an harbor so we can use those coastal tiles for growth and leave the plains for production)
N Nuremburg: court>worker
N Cologne: duct>harbor (see N Munich)
N Stuttgart: court>worker (I’m all for Operation Population Redistrabution, but we have a LOT of work to be done first.)

Russians start US.
France starts US.

T1 (1170)- Stick 2 workers in a caravel & send them to our west island.
Buy a worker with a funny accent & a penchant for cheese, for 17g & our WM.
Sell our WM around for pennies. (however multiple people were offering upwards of 6gpt for it, I just took a couple gold.)
Turn research down.
Disband a bunch of warriors/swords, upgrade some Knights to Cavs.

IT Learn Medicine, start on Sci Meth at 70% due in 4. (Whether we research it before ToE completes, or we take it as a free tech Rep Parts will be the next tech we get for the faster workers.) I’m also not building any coal plants, because we’ll shortly have Hoover.

N Berlin: library>factory
Heindelburg: factory> bank

T2 (1180)- Sell Medicine around for everyone’s gold, but not any gpt. (The more I think about this taking any gpt payments from the AI is shooting ourselves in the foot. We’re on what? Monarch? Emperor? Either way the AI gets a research discout & inter trade discount, we really should have been letting them research and buying techs for gpt from them from the start. But the AI is incompetent & stupid so we’ll just accept not taking their money & pray they actually come through with a tech or two, at this point.)
We get: 130 from Russia, 126 from France, 6 from Japan, 79 from India, & 10 from England. China sucks.

Rush Library in Tallatown. (hate to tell you, but that would have so been bulldozed had I gotten my way. ;))
Rush harbor in N Munich.
Rush harbor in N Cologne.
Rush aqueduct in N Bremen.
Rush library in N Heidleburg.

IT Munich: factory>courthouse
Nuremburg: worker>worker
Hannover: worker>worker
Swalzburg: factory>courthouse
N Heidleburg: library>court
N Munich: harbor>factory
N Cologne: harbor>court
N Bremen: duct>court
Scoutsburg: library>harbor (also would have gotten dozed)
Tallatown: library>court

T3 (1190)- Despite the fact that I’ve been building a bunch of workers, I’ve managed to reduce our Military upkeep by 6. Not too shabby, but not nearly enough. ;)

IT Hamburg: factory>bank
Nuremburg: worker>market

We lose our supply of fine Chinese silks. (not that it really matters)

T4 (1200)- Rush courthouse in Tallatown.
Turn research down.

IT Nuremburg: worker>uni
Hannover: worker>worker
Bremen: factory>cannon
Tallatown: court>harbor

T5 (1210)- Buy slave off Japan for WM & 21g.
Russia, France & China have Communism. Great, one of the 2 techs I don’t give the slightest @#$% about.
I’ll trade for it in a bit(aka once we have a tech that that doesn’t put us at risk of losing ToE to a cascade) simply for the police stations though. As far as I’m concerned any research by them is a step in the right direction though.

I investigated Orleans and was going to post a picture, but it’s not even worth it, they have 36 turns left on US.
Looks like unless Russia has something under their sleeve(aka Kiev cascaded) we’ll get US no problem.

IT Caravel sinks barb galley.
Learn Sci Method! Boo yea! Start on Rep Parts due in 5 at 80% (+17gpt).

N Stuttgart: worker>worker
Funfkirchen: worker>worker
Japan starts US.

T6 (1220)- Switch Kongisburg over to ToE due in 4. Increase our research to get RP in 4 at a loss.(that way on turn 4 we’ll pull in 3 techs, and can gift everyone most of them because ToE is in the bank.)
Not much else. Disband a couple units & workers work.

This will actually work out pretty perfectly. We’ll pick up 3 techs at once, our workers will double their speed so the rest of our land will get improved very quickly, and we can trade for Comm then gift everyone everything we have except Electronics. Shortly after that we’ll have completed US, launched our GA just in time for the expensive late IA techs, killed the cascade(which means a turn later we can gift everyone electronics because we’ll have 6 turns/300 shields already into it), and the AI loves to take the high road(combustion, refining, ect) while we take he low. I don’t think I could have scripted this one better, now we just need someone to pick up medicine for us.

IT Munich: court>cannon
Hannover: worker>factory
Bremmon: cannon>rax
Salzburg: factory>cannon
Dortmond: factory>uni

T7 (1230)- More of the same.

IT Frankfurt: factory>court
Cologne: factory>bank
Bremmend: rax>cav
Brandonburg: factory>cannon
Talsburg: worker>duct
Mistburg: worker>duct

T8 (1240)- Munich gets switch from cannon to Wall St, due in 13.

IT Salzeburg: cannon>cannon
N Kongisburg: factory>market
AAAARGH! My streak is broken. New Salzeburg riots, freaking island cities!

T9 (1250)- I sell our WM around to raise the bit of cash we need to keep from going in the red next turn and manage by 1 gold, then realize I’m a dumbass and turn research down. :lol:

IT We learn Rep Parts. Start on Atomic Theory.
Theory of Evolution completes in Kongisburg. We net Atomic Theory & Electronics. Start on Radio due in 7 at 60%, 112gpt. Can I get a boo-yea?

Kongisburg: ToE>Hoover
Heidelburg: factory>court
New Salzeburg is content & then New Brandonburg riots. I told you we should have just razed them.

T10 (1255)- We have 2 sources of rubber with another 2 not hooked up. That’ll work. Our workers go into overtime mode.

Sell Sci Meth & Rep Part to Mao for Comm, 130g, & 45gpt(he has 245gpt to spare). Then gift him Atomic Theory.
Sell SM & RP to Joanie for 19g. She has no gpt to spare, good job way to put it into research! Gift her AT.
Gift Cathy all 3.
Ghandi only has 38gpt, so I sell him all 3 plus Communism for 59g.
Gift them all to Toka & Lizzy as well.

IT Hamburg: Bank>court
Frankfurt: court>arty
New Stuttgart: court>police

First bit of pollution shows up.

T11 (1260)- Buy Japanese worker for 23g.
The Chinese/Indian war is at a standstill, neither side has lost a city.

IT Brandonberg: arty>arty
N Kongisburg: market>uni
Tallatown: harbor>duct

T12 (1265)- Rush, work, and upgrade.

*End o Turn Report*
*Military Report: 50 workers, 2 warriors, 3 spears(don’t ask me how those 5 slipped past my disband radar), 6 pikes, 1 knight, 13 rifles, 4 cavs, 10 cannons, 1 arty, 2 caravels.
*We’re in very good shape militaristically, we have plenty to defend ourselves with and we can put off building any more Cavs because our invasion will take place with tanks. Due to us having rails down connection all our cities we only have to defend the border cities, up until amphibious warfare. We can start rejoining workers once our rails system is finished, but we’ll want to keep a bunch around for pollution control & minor terrain changes.
*Radio due in 5, at 70% 113gpt.
*We’re up Electronics on everyone. DON’T trade/give away electronics until 2 turns after we finish the US, we want to kill the cascade here, and not have everyone cascade over to Hoover.
*US due in 3, Hoover due in 15, Wall St due in 8.
*End result: 6 techs, massive progress on our railroad network, but - about 3 thousand gold. Win some, you lose some.

Good luck!
Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/scout_SG002_AD1265_01.SAV)

It was well worth the wait GK :goodjob: Great turns!!!

Those look like some awesome turns! :thumbsup:

Sufferage ought to trigger our Golden Age. Also - don't be too quick to give Electronics away, even if we lock in on Hoover. Maybe one of the AI will be good enough to research Corporation for us.

Building Hoover in 1250.. not too shabby!

Note to whomever is next Scoutsburg (another of GK's "Bulldozable" cities) will riot next turn

Thanks guys, I just got lucky that I could max out research & pull Rep parts the same turn we landed ToE, basically gaining a free tech that would otherwise be spent on the tech you're researching.

Scout: That's what I'm banking on, and why I went with radio, even though it will take us longer to research. I figure one of them is researching Corperation & hopefully another going for Sanitation.

And Hoover will complete around 1300, but either way that's really freaking quick. I was just glanceing at the graph page that shows our scrore, and we might get the best of both worlds. I'll get my wooden spoon because we easily have the lowest score, and we might pull the laurell as well. That would be too funny.

Mist: In all honesty, I pretty much stopped paying attention to those cities. However I stuck two workers on the west island to connect the cities, and plant/chop forrests. I also have a caravel heading up our eastern coast to pick up a couple workers and take them to the eastern island.

Order of go:

Gengis Khan: Showed us he's back in a big way by spending all our cash.
Tallanas Caesar: UP
Scoutsout: on deck
Mistfit: warming up
Northern Pike: waiting his turn

Wooden Spoon AND Golden Laurel... whoa - we'd be the first team ever to get multiple awards! :crazyeye:

And I could snarf that "Order of the Wooden Spoon" from Brother Bede's sig... :D

But I'll be the only person to go 2-0 for Wooden Spoon awards, that takes some major talent and serious commitment.:lol:

If we manage to pull both, I'm definatly putting the spoon as my Av.