You could have your UNC Ram wielding the Spoon :) I'm sure if you speak nicely to Lyonesse, she'll sort it...

"Got it"

Got no money, but got the save ;)

I'm kinda fond of this

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/gkspoon.JPG

:lol:

Awesome!

That's freaking awsome! Consider it ganked. ;)

:rotfl: my A$$ off!

Let me work on it a bit or bring it to Lyonesse to clean up a bit first though

Edit: actually thats the best I can get it. I suggest the Lyonesse route.

Great round, GK. [A thumbs-up smiley would go here if the new reply form weren't playing its tricks.]

OK, done my pre-flight but going to play in the morning to make sure I'm fully with it ;)

A few points:

1. GK, if you preferred to use all our workers to develop our position rather than merging any of them, no problem. But I don't like it that we've stopped producing workers in Nuremberg and Hannover, effectively abandoning the worker-merging program when it can still help us a lot. We'll be leaving a lot of gold on the table if we tolerate first-ring cities below size twelve any longer.

Accordingly, I think we should let Nuremberg complete its university, switch Hannover's 35-turn factory build (probably useless, given the rate at which we're acquiring the remaining techs) to a settler, and then return both cities to their roles as size 5-6 worker pumps. The settler from Hannover could in principle be merged, but probably we should just hold onto it, since we'll want some settlers for tactical purposes in the final offensive.

2. In the same spirit, I think we can get more benefit from Tallatown, Talsburg, and Mistburg by just letting them spit out a worker every ten turns, as Funfkirchen is doing, than by having them work on aqueducts they probably won't finish in the time remaining.

3. I'm glad to see that we're building artillery in towns with no useful city improvements to build until hospitals. Hamburg, Heidelburg, and Cologne will soon join this category.

4. We need to start considering the mechanics of how we're going to get the UN built by the right AI civ. This is just a first thought, but I'd suggest that once we get Fission, we should look into the Russians' front-line cities (which conveniently are also their best ones) every turn, or as often as necessary, and give them Fission when a nearby city which could compete the UN quickly is about to finish its build. This would make it reasonably likely that they'd begin the UN in our chosen city on the next turn--although they might of course start the Manhattan Project in the good city, and the UN in a bad one. So if possible, we might want to give them Fission only when two desirable UN cities are about to finish their builds. The fact that the UN and the MP become available at the same time is a real complication here--if the inventors of the variant thought of this, I :worship: their devious minds.

@ Northern Pike - you touched on something that has been in the back of my mind for some time - the Manhattan Project.

We need a really good pre-build for the MP... so that we can take it out of the build queues. If we can complete it before giving away fission, that would be a Good Thing.

On another note, when we hit the Modern Age... oh man - I just had a really ugly thought... what if Cathy gets computers for a free tech? We're going to need LOTS of factories, and LOTS of Panzers...

If there is a way we can fix it so that we're not attacking Mech Infantry, that would be another Good Thing...

A few points:

1. GK, if you preferred to use all our workers to develop our position rather than merging any of them, no problem. But I don't like it that we've stopped producing workers in Nuremberg and Hannover, effectively abandoning the worker-merging program when it can still help us a lot. We'll be leaving a lot of gold on the table if we tolerate first-ring cities below size twelve any longer.

Accordingly, I think we should let Nuremberg complete its university, switch Hannover's 35-turn factory build (probably useless, given the rate at which we're acquiring the remaining techs) to a settler, and then return both cities to their roles as size 5-6 worker pumps. The settler from Hannover could in principle be merged, but probably we should just hold onto it, since we'll want some settlers for tactical purposes in the final offensive.

2. In the same spirit, I think we can get more benefit from Tallatown, Talsburg, and Mistburg by just letting them spit out a worker every ten turns, as Funfkirchen is doing, than by having them work on aqueducts they probably won't finish in the time remaining.

With no insult ment in any way shape for form, I think you're overlooking one very substantial point........ We have 50 workers, and each one is capable of laying a railroad now in 2 turns, not counting the 10+ slaves we have running around. The majority of our work is going to be completed in the next 15 or so turns anyways, there's really(IMHO) no reason to build more workers. I think I got as much done in upgrading our land in the 3(?) turns after Rep Parts as I did in the previous 8 or 9 turns.

Workers at 200%(rep parts) + 50%(Demo) = some really freaking speedy workers.

4. We need to start considering the mechanics of how we're going to get the UN built by the right AI civ. This is just a first thought, but I'd suggest that once we get Fission, we should look into the Russians' front-line cities (which conveniently are also their best ones) every turn, or as often as necessary, and give them Fission when a nearby city which could compete the UN quickly is about to finish its build. This would make it reasonably likely that they'd begin the UN in our chosen city on the next turn--although they might of course start the Manhattan Project in the good city, and the UN in a bad one. So if possible, we might want to give them Fission only when two desirable UN cities are about to finish their builds. The fact the that UN and the MP become available at the same time is a real complication here--if the inventors of the variant thought of this, I :worship: their devious minds.

This(and scouts MP post) bring up an intresting point we'll have to decide on:

Should we groom a Civ, even to the point of picking out a city we want it built in, and give them only fission........... Or should we spread it to the world and whoever can build it the quickest gets us beating down their doors?

The first obviously has it's advantages that taking the UN will be much easier(and probably quicker) when we can control the city it gets built in, however what if they don't start it in that city right away? What if they put it off in all their cities for awhile?(yes, I know the AI is wonder obsessed. But when the game hangs in the balance I always plan for worst case senario) Is grooming the civ of coice worth the extra time?

The second obviously has it's disadvantage, who builds the UN will be pot luck, we won't really know until everyone starts it. However it has some big advantages at the same time. Whoever starts it in the most productive city will get it done the quickest. Time is key, us racing through techs just to have everyone not build the UN for 50 turns after fission will kill us.

I'm definatly leaning towards the second plan, we can still investigate those UN cities so we'll know who's getting it(and just as importantly the exact turn they are). If nessasary we can start building some caravels/galleons in our coastal cities to upgrade to transports, and with us being at peace right before that we won't need much(if any) of a defense fleet. We can safely sail our fully loaded transports right outside their border and the turn before they complete it, declare war, move in and unload our troops. Who cares if our boats get shot to @#$%, it was a one way trip to begin with. The key is that once Fission hits the scene we need the UN completed ASAP.

I'm of the oppinion that the Manhattan won't even come into play, so us building it will be unnessasary. Granted the majority of my games don't make it to the Modern Age, but the AI doesn't normally go all out for Manhatten. And the last thing we want right now is nukes on the scene, that could get ugly real quick.

@NP and GK: Watching our team's two strongest players debate is giving me a serious case of the snickers... trust me when I say, I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing near you. :D

The strategic question: How to get the UN built ASAP

The tactical question: How to take it once it's built....

I've got some reading to catch up on....

@Tal, Mistfit: This is a Monarch level game, that you guys have survived to the industrial age. You're no longer Regent level players, get over it. But Monarch level players don't get to withhold ideas here either... :p

GK, no insult taken; I'm glad we're debating these issues, and of course I agree that our workers are very capable now. But:

1. This is monarch, and it's not hard to keep citizens happy, so why be unambitious about how much population we want in our cities? It would be great, though it may not now be possible, to have our good cities at an average size of sixteen when we begin researching Fission. That would involve about eighty more worker merges, I think. I may not have emphasized this sufficiently, but the real power of worker-merging as a strategy emerges when it's done a lot.

2. The rigid plan of first making all our tile improvements, and then merging most of our workers all at once, would leave us suffering from all the present population inefficiencies--a fine city like Salzburg at size nine, for example--for too much longer. The needless waste represented by undersized cities will only increase when our GA arrives in three turns. We need to resume merging now, while we're still engaged in improving our territory, so the production of more workers is definitely in order.

Turning to the UN question:

3. GK, your plan and mine needn't be seen as absolute alternatives, in that we can take our best shot at getting the Russians to build the UN where we want it and then give everybody Fission if that doesn't work. I have to say, though, that the latter approach seems to me to multiply the worst-case scenarios to which you refer, not reduce them. With the "groom Russia" plan, essentially one thing can go wrong--that the Russians won't feel like starting the UN in a good city when they could--and it's quite unlikely. With most or all of the AI civs gifted into the MA, any d___ thing could go wrong--the UN could end up in Delhi or Canton guarded by mech inf, nukes could come into play, whatever.

4. A real question, not a rhetorical one ;)--can we be confident that we'll be offered a vote the moment we capture the UN? I haven't captured it enough to be sure. But if this isn't a 100% certainty, then an ongoing war with Russia would be much easier to manage (in fact we'd just crush them) than an overseas war based on a one-shot expeditionary force we couldn't reinforce.

5. Scoutsout, I like your idea of pre-building the Manhattan Project a lot, though of course it's much more consistent with a groom-Russia plan than a Fission-for-all approach (in which case it might be dangerous, as GK says).

6. Just a random thought--I hope the competition between teams isn't decided by who gets Fission as a free tech. Not likely, I suppose.

6. Just a random thought--I hope the competition between teams isn't decided by who gets Fission as a free tech. Not likely, I suppose.

I hope so too. The vanilla players are at a disadvantage playing the variant since all the scientific civs will get rocketry (probably). It's something I didn't take into account when setting up the game. Hopefully the winners will be the team that plays the best game and uses the most creative method to take control of the UN.

I'm waiting to see what the teams will do if the civ that actually builds the UN calls a vote. :mischief:

Great debate guys. Some really good stuff to get my teeth into before starting my turns, which, incidentally, I'm about to do. Expect a turn log in a couple of hours...

I must say that I do plan to do some worker merging, especially since GK seems to have done a hell of a lot of improvements anyway... I am also going to finish up his Army Modernisation Plan!

Other than that, it's just the same old same old.

Regarding plans to get a specific city to build the UN. I say Yes to this, and Yes to Russia. Like GK and NP have said, if it goes wrong, just giving Fission around to all is a back up plan. But regardless of whether Russia get Mech Inf, they are so small we can crush them, surely... Better that it's in Moscow than Beijing...

Back soon...

Pre-flight... Check Scoutsburg, swap to a Worker and rush it. Change Hannover to Settler, for more worker builds next turn.

Press Enter

IBT - French ship hovering near Talsburg...

Turn 1 - 1270 AD

Dortmund>Bank; some more artillery builds; rather oddly, Scoutsburg riots, then produces a Worker and so has 2 content faces in it... Ah well...

Salzburg gets a worker boost, arty in 3 turns instead of 4... Upgrade some veteran rifles to infantry, probably the most cost effective way to improve military strength (4.6.1 to 6.10.1 for 20 gold...)

IBT - nothing

Turn 2 - 1275 AD

Lots of worker stuff, I am trying to alternate improving the tier 1 cities and merging, so that the merged workers have good squares to work. With RCP4 it's getting fairly cramped up by the FP...

Some more artillery builds.

IBT - Dammit!! Cathy has obviously been snooping on our thread, as she has requested an MPP - Mods, please stop her doing this ;) I give her 10 gold, tell her not to spend it all at once, and then decide to enfranchise women. Boy, I'm benevolent this year! The German Golden Age has begun! Production in Berlin rockets to a huge 71 shields per turn :eek:

Turn 3 - 1280 AD

Turn science down to 50%, radio still due to arrive in 2 turns... Income per turn up to 505gpt. This could get messy - some towns have got more production than they can handle, and our science has gone nuts :)

Much more work around the FP ring. Railroads around Leipzig just shaved 15 turns off the next pop increase... Now worker merges will be able to support themselves up to size 12. This is the general approach I am taking now...

The economy...

Here's Berlin. Note that it can build the Hoover Dam in 12...

IBT - Wines deal expires. Japan wants Electronics to renew... Hmm, no. What's annoying about this is that it's an in-between turn deal, so now we have no wines, and I imagine that every single size 12 city is about to riot... :(

Turn 4 - 1285 AD

Yep. The Golden Age begins with the Great Booze Riots of 1285... :mad: Berlin, Konigsberg, Frankfurt, Munich, Bremen, Salzburg, Brandenburg, New Berlin, New Heidelberg and New Munich are plunged into chaos. That Tokagawa is going to pay. Maybe not in this life, but surely in another game!!

The crafty fellow knows he has the only spare luxury in the world, and therefore he is playing hardball... He will accept 1) Coal or 2) 50gpt

Decide to give him the cash, as moving our lux slider 10% costs us 150gpt rather than 50, and hopefully he will research something... I also don't like giving away our last spare coal...

Spend the rest of the turn dreaming of seeing Panzers marching through Tokyo whilst doing Worker stuff. Tax slider to 60%, Radio in one, 660gpt...

IBT - Order restored, decide to go for The Corporation - I no longer want to trust the AI to do anything sensible, and it comes in 4 turns at +469gpt, which is 50% tax...

Turn 5 - 1290 AD

More pollution to clear up, lots more work to do! Some merges, some improving. More upgrading.

IBT - I must be cursed. Seriously. New Cologne culture flips to the French, obviously overcome by the smell of cheese and garlic wafting across the water from Cherbourg... :rolleyes: I guess there should have been more than just one spearman in it... To compensate, we get a new source of saltpeter...

Turn 6 - 1295 AD

Move 3 regular infantry to New Hannover, and pray that's enough to keep these sodding Francophile agents provocateurs in check...

IBT - Some good news, Wall Street is built in Munich. Income immediately jumps to 516gpt after science. And now more weedy play from me, as everyone and their dog has the Corporation... :blush: Immediately switch to sanitation, for the following reason - I know that the research on the Corp is lost, but if we can swap Sanitation for The Corp, then it effectively makes Sanitation a 2 turn tech... Science to only 40%, Sanitation in 4, and 684 gpt.

Turn 7 - 1300 AD

Lots more merging - around Berlin, the 1st tier cities are 12, 12, 12, 12, 11 (growing next turn), and 11 (max size at the moment). Around New Berlin, we have 12, 12, 12, 11, 11, 10 and 6 - the last 2 are getting rapid food production improvements, then merges.

At this point I save, and try to recover my form with a break. Some unlucky stuff there, but also some bad decisions, so I am going to stick my head in a bucket of ice water for a while... :rolleyes:

@ Tal - IBT Extortion is the worst. Happened to me 2 times (to the same effect) in Gotm31

Ok some thoughts: (note to scout it's not that I am afraid of commenting I just don't have good internet access overnight 6:00A-6:00p is my time on this forum - work hours :lol: )

I think prebuilding the manhatten project is a bad idea: This is a 800 sheild wonder that allows all civs to have nukes. As far as I can tell we want to delay nukes as long as possible so why build it for everyone.

The UN is a 1000 shield wonder. Does Russia have a city that can build this wonder quickly?

As far as I can tell we have 7 techs until the Modern times. We need to decide when to stop giving them away.

Sorry for the double post but we had the discussion on timing of UN votes on GK's TDG I believe it was decided that it takes place 10 or 11 turns after you own it so we will have to make sure that the city we take does not flip or get retaken for that long.

OK, let's see if we can recover slightly here... Sanitation in 4 at +705gpt after my turns...

IBT - nothing

Turn 8 - 1305 AD

Rush Factory in New Hannover, as it needs an aqueduct... Lots of worker stuff, more upgrading, one merge.

IBT - Dyes deal with India runs out (I am cursing vanilla, btw) - not wanting a repeat of last time, I pay the bowler-hatted wrinkly off with spices, ivory and 28gpt...

Turn 9 - 1310 AD

New Hannover gets Factory, starts aqueduct - lots more artillery builds, some more courthouses, police stations and infantry too, to prevent any more silly flipping. The GA is really taking hold, and some cities have every possible improvement (bar colosseums etc...)

IBT - nothing

Turn 10 - 1315 AD

Rush the aqueduct in New Hannover now, since it costs 324 instead of 800 last turn... Prepare merges for next turn.

Turn science down to 10%, sanitation in 1 turn, make 1153 gold to boot ;)

More upgrades...

Massive crash. My luck has not improved... I wonder where I can retrieve the save from... Might try a restart, maybe my system is being weird... :sad:

@ Tal: When you've finished your turns, could you load a save from prior to New Cologne's culture flip, zoom to that city, and post a screenshot?

I have a theory.... I think something went amiss during operation worker merge...

Sure, just rebooting and stuff, expect a 30 minute delay... :)

Ok Here is Crazy Idea #2 from Mistfit:

If it is Russia that we are planning to have build our Un for us.

#1) Improve the city Cologne to the Hilt, every possible improvement tile and city.
#2) Gift the city to Russia this would become almost a 1st ring city for them. She only has one city closer Tblisi is at 4 this and quite a few others would be at 5.
#3) Hope that this becomes her most productive city so she builds the UN there.
#4) Once she builds it take it from her the next turn.
#5) This would make the city almost flip proof because it would be full of German citizens.

Think this one over. I've not had a chance to study the Russian cities to see if Cologne would be a better choice.

Ok, this is bad. Reloading the 1315 save, I notice that we have somehow lost the dyes deal. Again. Whether this is because of the war between India and China, I'm not sure. All I know is that India now don't control any dyes...

:hmm:

@Gengis, NP - have a look at Mistfit's idea... can we afford to do that to a city? That would be really, really awesome to have the UN right on our doorstep...

Ok, I had to save the second 1315 save to go back and check that I had the right one. In 1300 India controlled Chittagong and Shantung - now China has taken Shantung, so our dyes deal is shafted, and China has already sold them to someone else, as they have no spare.

Note to mods! Ordinarily I would not have reloaded an earlier save to check, but due to the crash, I wanted to make sure that this wasn't the wrong save. I have saved the game in 1315 under the name "safe" so that I can produce that if needed. I know we don't like games to be played any way but 10 turns straight through...

My only worries would be if the city flipped back to us.

Or if she decided it was better to build elsewhere eventhough we gift wrapped it for her

An intresting idea, and one that could definatly be a compromise between the 2 UN ideas. If we're going to do that we should build either a coal or hydro plant(depending on if it's on a river) in that city, that will get it production up even more & the city would otherwise lose the hydro from hoover when we gifted it to them.

Also the flip isn't an issue, you have the choice to accept or rebuff the rebels. Wouldn't it be cool if it flipped right after completing, a purely peaceful UN steal.

I think Mistfit's idea is worth trying just to see if we can get the UN in a culture flip!

...though Gengis can tell you, I am cursed when it comes to Culture Flips.

@GK - I'm wondering...with Tals technical difficulties... you did patch your vanilla up to 1.29f when you replaced it, didn't you?

Yep, first thing I did after I got my disk back.

Rings Picture:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/gift.jpg

Edit Cologne is on a river

Cologne would be pretty perfect for that, it's a gamble but one that could pay off big time.

Also we'd want to load it up with happyness improving umm improvements first before handing it over as well. I doubt Russia has as many luxs as we do, and it would be a shame for half the citizens to get turned into clowns.

:hmm: This game did crash a few times... I haven't got the technical knowledge to assist you directly, but I will post a 'help' in the staff forum and see if some of the gurus can deal with this. Stay tuned ;)

OK, now that I've recovered from my little fit, I can say that Mist's idea sounds great to me. If we can pull it off, it will be one hell of an achievement :)

As you'll have seen from my turnlog, I had one or two technical problems. I have now ended my turns after 10 rather than 12, so that we can get any confusion cleared up.

@Tal
do you mean that you managed to sneak past the crash problem? Confirm?

This was New Cologne pre-flip

@Tal
do you mean that you managed to sneak past the crash problem? Confirm?

Ummm... is this team leader derelict in missing something in a maintenance thread? What "crash problem"?

A breif bit of advice because you're in the TDG Tall.

If you're in a situation where there's a tech you're going for that you really want(Corperation), and another tech that you sort of want (Sani), but you get beaten to the first one (Corperation), you have a couple choices.

The first is trade Electronics for Corp (which is what I would have done, since UN completed busting the cascade).
The second is buying Corp, but the key is buying it while you're still researching it, because you get a discount on buying/trading for techs thats proportionate to how many beakers you have invested into a tech(but not time, if you're on turn 39 of a min gambit and only have 39 beakers into the tech, you'll still pay outragous prices). Since you switched to Sani, all the beakers were lost and we lose the discount.

Just something that will help out, and pops up about 5 different times in every game. Don't sweat the technical difficulty, it happens to everyone.

I'm assuming our rep is trashed due to the unforseen breaking of our dye deal?

@Karasu

I will explain exactly what I did. When it crashed, I rebooted, then loaded the autosave of the turn prior to crash. I noticed that the dyes deal had fallen through. I was utterly confused by this, so loaded an earlier save, whereupon I noticed that the reason behind this was in game, rather than some odd bug or the wrong save being loaded by me.

So, knowing I had the right save, I went through and replayed that turn I lost, and then saved the game before pressing enter, and uploaded it to the GoTM server.

basically, this was so that all saves I have are current, and if you need any, I can send them.

Hope that helps

I'm assuming our rep is trashed due to the unforseen breaking of our dye deal?Oh man - I hope not...

Gengis - can you d/l the save and take a peek at attitudes and such? I can't look at this until tonight.

That blows my mind that New Cologne flipped to the French... Once we with this thing, I may roll some Panzers through there and raze it just as a matter of principle. Traitors. If there's one thing in life I hate worse than a quitter, it's a traitor.

@GK - yeah, you're spot on. I wasn't thinking straight at the time, I think the curveball I got from the game shortly beforehand was still playing on my mind. I was trying to make the most of a bad call I had already made, and ended up making things worse.

Just wait till you see my next two screenshots, if you want to see utter horror. I shall from now on be calling today "Black Tuesday" or "Another day I wish I could do over"

Another point - if that dyes deal falling through has blown our rep, I will be mightily pissed off... It wasn't technically us that blew the deal, of course, it was Ghandi, when he lost control of the dyes which were his end of the deal...

I don't think the cause makes a difference. If a deal is broken for any reason we get a rep hit. We should however be able to Gift a bunch of techs to everyone the turn before the un vote to make everyone happy again.

Ummm... is this team leader derelict in missing something in a maintenance thread? What "crash problem"?

Sorry, I misunderstood. Ok, no problems.

OK, a couple more screenshots, and a request.

If the above isn't just delightful enough, check out this for irony. GK, you must be prophetic ;)
Look what everyone got this turn...

Can you post the save?

Mistfit, this is the request - could you make me one of those "weedy move" graphics? I think I deserve one, if not two :blush:

Ok, let's focus on things I did right. I am happy with the worker merging program, and I will show you the results...

And the ring round berlin - note in both the size 6 worker pump...

Things to note for the next better player...

Infantry builds need to be changed to artillery. Currently our military is:

2 warriors
2 spearmen
4 pikemen
1 knight
4 riflemen
18 infantry
9 cannon
15 artillery

Other messes I have left for Scout to clear up include the massive imminent rebellion since people can no longer have tie-dyed clothes (what's wrong with white??) and the huge round of trading to do for techs. We have a lot of spare cash, and electronics to trade for sanitation (saving us one turn) and the Corporation. I would have done both of these this turn, but as I mentioned above, I finished my turns at a point where the game crashed, and went no further...

P.S. The save is on the download server now, and someone needs to explain to me how to attach multiple images in one post, preferably in a "big print for thickies" version... On the other hand, this method is doing my post count no harm at all... :rolleyes:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/for_tal.JPG

Back By popular demand

Amazingly our rep is still intact.

Don't worry about the riots either, not much you could have done. *Another small tip- if you lose a lux during the IT, after the first city riots you can go to the city and use the scroll arrows to scroll through your cities and put a clown in each. This will prevent riots in all but 1 of your cities. Normally I hate anything that has to do with "big picture" or scrolling around, but I think this one is ligit(imho).*

The corperation/sanitation isn't really a big deal either, just cost us a turn or two on the next tech. We can easily trade Electronics for both those.

I'd go with Steel next, the AI will normally research Combustion first due to it producing a resource.

Perfect :rotfl:

Edits

@Mist - yes, it was me defending Tokugawa... :rolleyes: Never again!

@GK - thanks for being understanding as I systematically trashed our game ;) Good points about the next tech and the scroll through idea. That last one did occur to me, but again, i am conditioned not to use exploits, even if they are legit - fiddling during the IBT via the scroll arrows just reeks of dodginess, though I agree that in that situation, there should be something you can do to get clowns in your cities as an interim fix.

Bring back the picture of Tok! It was he who torpedoed my happiness, causing the Great Booze Riots of 1285!!

:lol:

Can we add these guys in as well?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/tal%232.JPG

Umm... what are we pre-building in Brandenburg?

I'm amazed there isn't a whole book of pictures for Shaka.

See I told you Lyonesse could whip a better one up in no time

Wow, I turn my back on this thread for twelve hours and there's another book to read. :lol:

Tallanas, our cores look much healthier now--fine work. :goodjob:

Mistfit, your idea of preparing Cologne to build the UN for the Russians is exceptionally clever. It might not work when the time comes, since getting the Russians to start the UN in one particular city will be harder than getting them to start it in any one of their good cities. But since the plan would help us a lot if it succeeded, and wouldn't hurt us much if it failed, I think we should definitely start building the appropriate improvements in Cologne--which means a hydro plant and all the happiness structures, as GK points out.

When I say it wouldn't hurt us much if the Russians didn't start the UN in Cologne, I'm assuming that we'll be wiping them out anyway, to get rid of a vote against us in the election.

OK maybe I'll start calling it the "crazy but not completely crazy idea"

Edit: Who is our nearest competitor in the "winning the vote" sweepstakes?
Is there any way we could injure their rep with the rest of the world?

Umm... what are we pre-building in Brandenburg?

:sigh:

Yet more weediness. Your question gave me serious pause for thought. I checked the back saves and the turn log and can find no record of changing this from the standard artillery builds... The only thing I can think is that I was changing the build order here when the crash occurred, and somehow it changed the order. However, Palace is next to Artillery in the build menu, so it may just have been a simple mis-click. I was having such a shocker that nothing would surprise me...

In any event, there have been 2 turns production here, a total of 90 shields. They are yours to do with as you wish, as is the 4200 cash I bequeathe to you ;)

Tal

Well... if there are 90 shields in the build queue, and an Infantryman costs 90 shields... we just recruited ourselves another grunt!

@Northern Pike: My ideas on Russia building in Cologne

Here is my rational in thinking that Russia will build there:
1.) We should be able to make Cologne her best city
2.) Even though AI lacks "intelligence" in most cases I believe that they do build wonders in their best cities.
3.) I to agree that AI seems to not build the Manhatten Project (in my limited experiance I've never seen it)
4.) Even if Cathy pulls computers for her free tech we still have a 50% chance that she will start the UN instead of the SETI in Cologne.
5.) If we can pull it off it would be a great story for the "spoiler thead"

I agree with most of that. But the AI has a strong tendency to start a newly available Wonder in the first city which completes a build (by simple probability, this is likely to be a productive city), which is why spying on Russia's cities at the decisive moment will be crucial. Perhaps we should give the Russians Fission and Cologne at the same time, guaranteeing that Cologne won't have a build going when the AI considers the possibility of starting the UN there. But the AI will probably consider Moscow and some of its other core cites before Cologne on the interturn in question, so ideally we'd want to time things so that Russia's other towns would be in the middle of builds. Some fascinating complications....

Oh what a victory celebration it would be if we could pull that off and have the city flip back to us.

I know it is seriously unlikely but a guy can dream

Oh what a victory celebration it would be if we could pull that off and have the city flip back to us.

I know it is seriously unlikely but a guy can dream

If that happens, we are all going out immediately to buy lottery tickets ;)

Pre-flight check

We've got some unhappy campers. Let's see... specialists, or lux tax...

Wow! Lux tax at ZERO .. 10% looks like it will fix the problems.

Start shopping Electronics...

Russia will offer us Sanitation, Corporation, WM, 60g+134gpt.
France San/Corp/34gpt

I take the gold off the table, and sell it to Cathy for the two techs and WM
We have a furs trade with France that is open. Trade Incense and Electronics to France for furs.

I gift everybody else to parity...

Take Science to 60%, Steel in 4.

Rush a harbor in New Brandenburg
Upgrade a caravel

We have 52 workers (!) Change Hannover and Nuremberg to Factories. I don't want these GA shields to go to workers, and we may one day need a Navy
New Dortmund and New Salzburg to courts (we have a team of 3 workers worker up there)
Funfkirchen also gets changed to court. (Workers cost just as much gpt as infantry)

Press <enter>

IBT - The English request an audience, wanting MPP & RoP. She gets a gift of Saltpeter and Ivory instead. Elizabeth is now Gracious!

Berlin and Frankfurt each train an Infantry, start on a Hospital. Munich finishes a Police station>Hospital. Bonn starts a hospital
Salzburg Arty>Hospital
Brandenburg Infantry>Hospital
Leipzig Court>Hospital
New Hannover Duct>University (I want New Cologne back!)
New Brandenburg Harbor>Court
Scoutsberg worker> Court

The loyal citizens of Vladivostok have overthrown their oppresors and pledged their allegiance to us!!!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/scout_sgotm2_vladivostok.jpg

Crap. Just what I need. Another hole in the Jungle to tend to.

Decisions, decisions.... let's see...

From a tactical standpoint, it would be nice to NOT have a russian town in our interior if we ever have to go after them.

From a diplomatic standpoint, the thing to do is rebuff the rebels. :mischief:

Then again, so what if it irritates Cathy a little bit? I have a rare opportunity here to be on the other side of a culture flip, piss Cathy off AND give Gengis' chain a good yank.

I take the city. :devil2:

...to be continued...

Then again, so what if it irritates Cathy a little bit? I have a rare opportunity here to be on the other side of a culture flip, piss Cathy off AND give Gengis' chain a good yank.

:lol:

I imagine Cathy will come round when we give her Cologne... GK on the other hand... :hammer:

I forgot to post some of the turnlog last night.

The rest of the first IBT...

Surprise, surprise, the French start Hoover Dam.

Turn 1 (1320)
Lots and lots of worker turns here...
Upgrade some units...
something automoved... dangit.

IBT - Hamburg Infantry>Hospital
Dortmund Police Station>Hospital
New Berlin Bank>Hospital
New Frankfurt University>Bank

The Russians are building Hoover Dam

Turn 2 (1325)
New Munich hires a tax collector.
Let's see... China and India are at war... both lack Rubber, China lacks saltpeter.
China is in Republic, India in Communism. Everyone else is in Democracy.
I rush the University in New Hannover, because I can.
I do some trimming of the landscape.... and that's pretty much it.

IBT - The French propose MPP/RoP
Leipzig Court>Worker (hit by pollution)

Hoover Dam comes online in Konigsberg. Starts a University

Cologne Hospital>Coal Plant (Can't build Hydro, because it's already there, and will come off-line when disconnected from Hoover...)

Stuttgart Police Station>Worker
New Hamburg Arty>Hospital
New K'burg Police Station>Bank
New Munich Factory>Market
New Hannover University>Temple
Tallatown Worker>Worker

Turn 3 (1330)
The 52 workers that seemed like a lot a minute ago don't seem like so many now... given the shape of our terrain.

Ghandi has recaptured his source of Dyes. He wants Saltpeter and Rubber. Playing the "Balance of Power" game, I trade him Rubber and 300g for them. That should let him upgrade some troops. I then turn right around and give Rubber to the Chinese. Neither has saltpeter (which means no cav).

Get the pollution cleaned up in Leipzig, and switch it to a bank.

Turn research down...

IBT - not much

Steel comes in. No choice but refining.
Berlin Hospital>worker
Frankfurt Hospital>Infantry
Heidleburg Hospital>Infantry
Bremen Hospital>Worker
Our people want to build the Battlefield Medicine!
Stuttgart Worker>University
Salzburg Hospital>Worker
Brandenburg Hospital>Artillery

Turn 4 (1335)

There are some countries who seriously need some coal.. and we've got 2 that aren't hooked up. One is near Mistburg, which needs a culture boost. I rush a temple for 208, then a University for 160g after short rushing with a temple for 208g. Then I rush a University in Funfkirchen for 280g. Why? Because I am sick of culture flips, and because I can. :D While I'm at it, Vladivostok gets a Library, so we can claim some spices.

We hook up one of our sources of coal... near New K'burg...

I'm getting a little tired... and I pulled a :smoke: move. I just noted that I didn't actually turn research down like I intended to... so I'm going to save the game at this point and come back to it tomorrow night.

Looks good so far. Note I can't pick up the game until thursday evening so take your time.

Back to the game... Turn 4 (1335)

In the diplo check I note that I gave Cathy 2gpt for something.. it must have been an accidental double-click on my part, because I don' thing we got anything useful for it...

finish some worker moves, press <Enter>

IBT - a couple of Russian longbows show up on the border, but they appear to be patrolling...

Berlin Worker>... TEMPLE! (I'm only going to do this in our most productive cities) | Hamburg Hospital>Temple | Konigsberg University>Bank | Munich Hospital>Temple | Bremen Worker>Infantry | Bonn Hospital>Worker | Salzburg Worker> Temple (Temples and Cathedrals should make us less sensitive to the loss of a lux when we kick off our UN conquest gambit...and I think we can afford them in the core)
New Berlin Hospital>Temple | New Leipzig Hospital>Temple | Vladivostok Library>Court | Funfkirchen University>Court | Mistberg University>Court

Turn 5 (1340)
We are up Steel and Radio on the whole world. Nobody has any techs to trade. I hold for a moment, suspicious that somebody might be researching espionage.

Mostly worker turns, put a couple infantry on our northern island.

IBT -
Berlin Temple>Cathedral
Hamburg Temple>Cathedral (Like I said - productive cities...)
Frankfurt Infantry>Temple | Munich Temple>Cathedral | Heidleburg Infantry>Temple | Cologne Coal Plant>Worker | Bonn Worker>Temple | Salzburg Temple>Cathedral | Dortmund Hospital>Infantry | Brandenburg Artillery>Artillery | New Berlin Temple>Cathedral | New Frankfurt Bank>Worker | New Munich Market>University | New Nuremberg University>Barracks | New Hannover Temple>Cathedral | Talsburg worker>Worker

Turn 6 (1345)
Upgrade a cannon
Disband a Pike in New Salzburg, relieved by an Infantry
Disband a Spear in New Dortmund.
Disband a Warrior in New Hannover
Disband a Pike in Mistburg
Upgrade our remaining cannon to artillery...
Worker moves...

IBT -
Leipzig Bank>Hospital | Konigsberg Bank>Hospital | Frankfurt | Temple>Cathedral | Heidleberg Temple>Cathedral | Cologne Worker>Infantry | Bremen Infantry>Infantry | Stuttgart University>Bank | New Leipzig Temple>Cathedral | New Hamburg Hospital>Bank | New Frankfurt Worker>Hospital

Turn 7
New Bonn is connected now, fire the clown.

Research to 40%, Refining next turn. We still have a monopoly on Steel and Radio. I hang on to them, because some AI jerk will want a monopoly price for Espionage, we have a wines deal coming due with Tokugawa soon, and we are approaching a split in the tech tree that will come after our Golden Age. I want to get Combustion, acquire Espionage, and work on Mass Production->Motorized Transportation, and maybe get the AI to research Flight for us.

France still lacks coal, as does Japan. Our wines deal with Tokugawa comes up in 7 turns. Whaddya wanna bet that one of our coals disappears in 6 turns, and Tokugawa "discovers" a new source of coal?

IBT - Refining comes in, Research to 60% to get Combustion in 4.
F2 Check... We have TWO sources of OIL!!! [dance]

Our oil is near New Brandenburg and New Salzburg.
Correction, our oil is UNDER New Brandenburg and New Salzburg.

Would anyone care to guess where these two towns are? :mischief:

Berlin Cathedral>Infantry | Bonn Temple>Cathedral | Dortmund Infantry>Infantry | Brandenburg Artillery>Artillery | New K'burg Bank>Artillery
New Nuremberg Rax>Police Station | New Bremen Market>Police Station | Tallatown Worker>Worker

Turn 8 (1355)
Put some infantry on the eastern tundra Island. Disband a spear. Upgrade a rifle.
Some worker moves...

IBT - WLTKD kicks off in size 13 Berlin.
Hamburg Cathedral>Infantry | K'berg Hospital>Temple | Munich Cathedral>Infantry | Cologne Infantry>Infantry | Bremen Infantry>Infantry | Salzburg Cathedral>Artillery | New Berlin Cathedral>Rax | New Munich University>Bank

We got hit by pollution on two unroaded mountains.

Turn 9 (1360)

Disband a Warrior in New Bonn, relieved by an Infantry.
Relieve a Pike in Scoutsberg, disband a Pike
Lots of worker moves...

I have just about got all 8 inner tiles around Cologne finished...

Diplo check - aside from my stupid 2gpt mis-click (14t left), we have Iron and Spices going to Cathy under a standing agreement... We should leave this as a standing deal until the time comes.

IBT - Berlin Infantry>Infantry | Konigsberg Temple>Cathedral | Frankfurt Cathedral>Worker | Heidleburg Cathedral>Infantry | WLTKD kicks off in a couple of cities. | Dortmund Infantry>Infantry | Brandenburg Arty>Rax (We're going to have Barracks in any city capable of making a Panzer...)
New Berlin Rax>Infantry | Hamburg Bank>Harbor | New K'burg Artillery>Temple (Culture and Happiness) | New Heidleburg Police Station>Worker | Talsburg worker>Court

Turn 10 (1365)
I leave one Artillery awake in Brandenburg so I remember where the reserve stack is...
...some worker moves...
I do a diplo check that doesn't reveal anything new... then I do a map check that does reveal something that may be important.

India does not have a single harbor. This means that it is absolutely imperative that we maintain good relations with Japan, or we lose the trade route to India.

IBT - these Russian Longbows on the border are cracking me up!
Leipzig Hospital>Temple | Hamburg Infantry>Infantry | Frankfurt Worker>Infantry | Munich Infantry>Infantry | Cologne Infantry>Infantry |
Bremen Infantry>Infantry | Bonn Cathedral>Rax | Salzbug Artillery>Worker (will grow next turn) | Brandenburg Rax>Infantry | New Leipzig Cathedral>Rax | New Hamburg Harbor>Galleon | New Heidleburg Worker>Bank | New Hannover Cathedral>Market | New Stuttgart Police Station>Market

FINALLY!!!! The AI have discovered a tech. The whole stinkin' world now knows Espionage.... except China. India has 354g, and is at war with china. Russia is the only other AI with any gold at all... GEE, I WONDER who discovered Espionage??!?!

It looks like we've got a new tech power.

Oh man - I just had a really devilish thought. We still have a monopoly on Radio. We could keep everybody but Cathy in the Industrial age. Hmmm....

The wife is yammmering... where was I?

Turn 11 (1370)

Catherine offers Espionage, WM, 90g+40gpt for Steel. I take the gpt off the table and close the deal. We want gpt going towards flight here in another turn.

Even after trading Steel to Cathy and GIFTING it to Joanie and Tokugawa, Ghandi will still offer me 350g+57gpt for Steel. I gift it to him. I gift Espionage and Steel to Mao to finish this "trading" round.

Combustion is due next turn. I can take research to 30% and get it next turn, but I don't know when the GA will end...so I only take it to 40%.

bump some military units, make some worker moves...and that's it.

IBT - China and India sign peace. It's about dadgum time.
Combustion comes in. Set Research to 50%, due in 4. We have 3359g+282gpt.

Our People want to build the Intelligence Agency! Maybe we should.... NOT!!

Note to team: I have deliberately avoided building Battlefield Medicine, and I will probably avoid the intelligence agency. We can use those as Manhattan Project pre-builds.

Berlin Infantry>Infantry | Konigsberg starts a Police Station (Needs a Rax) | Heidleburg Infantry>Infantry | Stuttgart Bank>Hospital | Bonn Rax>Infantry | Salzburg Worker>Infantry | Dortmund Infantry>Infantry | New Berlin Infantry>Infantry | New Leipzig Rax>Police Station | New K'burg Temple>Cathedral | Frankfurt Hospital>Temple

Turn 12 (1375)

Time for another round of generous diplomacy. I dial up the world and teach them how to refine oil. Then I dial 'em all up again and teach them the art of Combusion. Now will one of you AI morons PLEASE research Flight for me!??!

Disband a couple of Regular Rifles in Funfkirchen, and rush the court.

IBT - Ghandi wanst MPP & RoP, gets 10g. He lacks, salt, oil, Spices, and Ivory. We have 11 turns left on a Dyes for Rubber deal.

Our Civilization's Golden Age has ended.

Leipzig Temple>Worker | Hamburg Infantry>Infantry | Frankfurt Infantry>Infantry | Munich Infantry>Infantry

...I missed some builds when the cat jumped in my lap

did an F1 check, and the game crashed.

"...to be continued..."

That sounds good. :goodjob: I'm glad you took the opportunity to build some happiness structures.

Great call on the island oil. :lol:

I see the point of putting the other civs in a position to research Flight for us, but it seems to me that the indiscriminate tech gifting should now stop. In other words, I agree that we should keep most of the AI civs in the IA until we see what decision the Russians make about the UN.

The harder I look at this, the more I like Mistfit's little "Gift-Cologne-to-the Russians-to-build-the-UN-there" gambit. To that end, I built a coal plant in Cologne, and I've got the jungle cleared out of the inner tiles.

When I hit F1, I was planning to look at some of those cities that I had started Infantry in the IBT, and switch a few of them to wealth. Here's the tricky balance... (Mistfit - pay attention)

I want to try and maintain 4-turn tech to Motorized Transportation - but I still want a positive cash flow. My thinking is that Mistfit's turnset will be the "Set Up" set. I think endgame will come very soon... and I think you (@NP) will need some cash to do a little city investigating.

We should probably have a little discussion on the finer points of MPPs and RoPs... One or two of those could REALLY change this game...

My current thinking:

Research: maintain the monopoly on Radio. When we close out the Industrial Era, set research to Computers (so that we DON'T get computers) and hope we get Fission with the free tech. If no, it doesn't matter. Gift Cathy into the Modern Era. If SHE doesn't get Fission, it's time for a hard-burn to it, and a pre-build for Manhattan Project.

Gift Cologne to Cathy at some opportune moment... build Panzers in every city we possibly can... and cross our fingers...

...when she builds the UN, sign MPP with the world, declare war, and leave a worker exposed. Attack on the next turn...

How does that sound? Am I nuts? Am I breaking some stupid dogpile rule Genigs brought up a month and a half ago?

Have you posted the save? :confused:

Conventional wisdom seems to be that in vanilla 1.29, a scientific civ will normally get Rocketry as its free MA tech. So probably this is the tech we should research so as not to get it free--though this is not a reliable trick, so no one should be surprised or feel bad if it doesn't work.

That detail aside, I like the plan you've outlined.

Yes, I like the plan for "Operation Cologne" - onr thing I might echo from NP is that it's time to stop playing Santa. Any future tech deals must contain either MPP clauses or some up front cash, maybe even some nice gpt. We really need very little from the AIs now in terms of research, but as Scout points out, we may be needing some serious slush funds...

As for the tech to research when we swap ages, I am witholding opinion - I always seem to get the one I don't want, so I'm glad it's not my turns up for that ;)

Other than that, nice turns, although I'd like a quick gander at the save, wink wink, nudge nudge...

The wife is yammmering... where was I? :lol:

Nice to know I'm not the only one.


Good set of turns!

I haven't posted the save yet, I logged on to the boards after the game crashed. Tonight when I get home I'll look and see what my best last save is, look at some other things...I was thinking about going ahead and giving Cologne to Cathy, to let her build a temple or something. I had originally intended to play 14 (Since Tal got cut short...) but it might be more fair of me to hand it off at this point, to let a couple of you have another set.

As I was driving in to work this morning, I was thinking that we might want to consider this: Strategize our endgame, with emphasis on discussion between NP and Mistfit. The way this is taking shape, Mistfit's next turnset will be a critical setup with a tech goal (ushering in the Modern Era) and a military goal (building Panzers like a madman).

Depending on where we are at the end of Mistfits turnset, I thought I might ask Northern Pike to do the honors, and end this madness.

A couple more thoughts:

@NP: You're right - it's time to quit playing Santa until after we have the U.N. in hand. My goal in that last (very generous) round of tech gifting was to get the AI close to parity, and hope they'll research Flight for us. If we can buy Flight, it will shave 4-5 turns off this game.

My thinking on setting the queue to Computers at the dawn of the Modern Era: I don't want computers as a free tech... In rethinking this, what I really don't want is for Cathy to acquire Computers (and Mech Infantry). As long as the queue is set to something OTHER THAN FISSION we should be okay. Rocketry is a valid tack...

I'm sorry to keep you guys in the lurch on the save and screenies... my wife dragged me to some stupid Chamber of Commerce thing, and I didn't even get home until almost 9 last night. I'm actually glad I got as far as I did.

@NP, would you rather I went ahead and posted the save tonight, and let you and Mistfit start working on setup/endgame?

Can't check the save right now, but does Cathy have rubber and oil for Mech Inf?

She's got Infantry, which means she's got Rubber. IIRC (not sure) she has one oil that isn't connected (yet).

The thing that I'm most worried about is my last turn. I don't recall if I hit that F1 before the thing went through its autosave routine... I hope I at least got the autosave.

Note to Mistfit: Stacks of 6 native workers seem to do a nice job in the jungle.... I will try to organize the workers into groups of 3 or 6 for you. (I think I still have a few 'spares' out there...)

Can you recall what techs are needed for getting us into the Modern Era?

Can you recall what techs are needed for getting us into the Modern Era?We're working on Mass Production->Motorized Transportation. Add Flight to that, and we're Modern.

We are on a hard burn to endgame.

Autosave is the first thing it does. So unless you crashed during the IBT, you will have at most to go back and do your last turn again.

What is it with this game, anyway? It's just crash-happy... :rolleyes:

Speaking of hard burn to endgame, it's apparent that it's very unlikely the game will go round again!

This must be how a member of a relay team feels, knowing he's passed on the baton and can't do anything else to help the team except cheer!

Ok - with out seeing the save the plan for my turns looks like:

1.) burn through the final Industrial era Techs MP->MT->hopefully buy Flight from Russia set queue to computers.
2.) No more gifting techs - I believe Russia will be doing the selling of these as soon as she can. So we may have everyone in the MA the turn after we gift it to Russia.
3.) Prep Cologne to be gifted - tile improvements - culture improvements
4.) once we get MT build panzers like crazy
5.) Stop spending cash - build war chest
6.) no more per turn deals with Russia - leave current lux deal alone until we war
Scout I think that you are underestimating the remaining time for this game - remember Russia still has to Build a 1000 shield wonder.

Questions:
1.) why are we planing to build Manhatten Project? So Russia can build nukes for when we attack her?
2.) when do we do our gifting of cologne?

1) I have never used nukes in a civ game! I can only assume it's a Bad Thing, and so question the sanity of building the MP

2) Would gifting Cologne (i.e. empty build queue) and Fission at the same time be a good idea?

@NP, would you rather I went ahead and posted the save tonight, and let you and Mistfit start working on setup/endgame?

There's no need to post until you've tied up all the loose ends, both in game terms and technically.

We've certainly reached the point at which we have to plan and discuss everything very carefully--but I agree with Mistfit that some of you gentlemen may be underestimating the number of turns left in the game. Even if everything goes perfectly, it will probably take the Russians 15-20 turns to get the UN built, and after we capture it it may be another ten turns or so before we're allowed a vote (here I follow Mistfit, the only member of the team to have expressed an opinion--does anyone else have anything to say about this?)

Mistfit, we would build the MP simply to remove it as a Wonder option for the Russians, so that we could more easily manipulate their UN build. As long as only the Russians are in the Modern Age, I don't think we much need to fear a nuclear war. They don't have a lot of territory and they may not even have uranium.

It seems to me that giving the Russians Cologne only when we give them Fission would allow us the most control over their UN build. Does anybody see a downside here? [Cross-post with Tallanas. :)]

I take your point, both in terms of time left (wouldn't it be fitting if Team Scout's final turns were played out by Scout :) ) and the MP build. I hadn't thought of the AI being daft enough to build MP over the UN...

And like you say, maybe they won't have Uranium... :weneedafingerscrossedsmiley:

My first double post in this thread, I think. :D [Edit: No, saved by Tallanas. :lol:]

It won't matter much if Cathy has mech inf units, provided we have plenty of artillery to soften them up for our Panzers. So we should continue steadily building up our artillery force.

Since the number of turns has not been extremely regular in this SG my thought was I could play until the turn before we get fission, stop post the save so we can have a discusion on our next moves.

That sounds wise.

My first double post in this thread, I think. :D [Edit: No, saved by Tallanas. :lol:]

:thumbsup:

It won't matter much if Cathy has mech inf units, provided we have plenty of artillery to soften them up for our Panzers. So we should continue steadily building up our artillery force.

True enough. As long as we have plenty of Mech Inf to repel the inevitable counter-attack, I'm happy.

Since the number of turns has not been extremely regular in this SG my thought was I could play until the turn before we get fission, stop post the save so we can have a discusion on our next moves.

Sounds sensible. If that's only 8 turns or so, then why not go back and finish off afterwards, after all there's nothing wrong with stopping half way through your turns and asking team advice...

Turn 13 (1380)

Look for a few cities with fresh Infantry queues
Brandenburg, Konigsberg, Frankfurt, Munich, and Bremen are switched to Wealth... for just a couple of turns. Take science up to 70%, Mass Production in 3, -142gpt

I am almost finished with terrain improvements around Cologne.

Trade Balance

Russia: 25gpt for our Iron and Spices (standing), we are also giving 2gpt (10t remaining)
Important: Before declaring war on anybody, we must peacefully end all deals at the diplmatic table, then declare war, then move the troops in.
France: We are getting 10gpt for Spices and Incense (standing) a Furs for Incense deal has 7 turns remaining. We have 2gpt going to France for another 10 turns. (?)
England: We are sending her Saltpeter and Ivory for 7 more turns, 2gpt for 10 turns. (What was I thinking?
Japan: We are paying 50 gpt for wines, one turn left on the deal. We also have coal and spices to dicker with. We're also sending him 2gpt for 10 more turns.
India: 10 turns remaining on Dyes for Rubber.
China: 10 turns remaining on Rubber (for balance of power).

F3 Check - we are "Average" compared to France, strong compared to everyone else.

IBT - Berlin trains an infantryman, Leipzig starts a barracks, Heidleberg and Salzburg continue training Infantry.

Turn 14 (1385)

:wallbash: Russia, France, and India have all learned the secrets of Radio.

Taking the science slider down to 60% still gets us Mass Production in 2 turns, +2gpt.

Terrain improvements are generally completed around Cologne.

This looks like a very good point to stop, upload the save, and let the team have a look.

@Mistfit: This is pretty close to a beginning-of-turn save. Since Tokugawa didn't try to re-negotiate wines for 50gpt, you should be able to re-negotiate this deal on your turn. I would try taking the gpt off the table and offering coal and a lux.

@Team: The save is on the server now if you want to download it and have a look.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm2_scout_1385.jpg

Again, :goodjob:, Scout. Some thoughts:

1. Konigsberg should begin a palace pre-build for the Manhattan Project as soon as it completes its police station. We can easily slow down the build if it seems to be going too quickly, or even decline to build the MP when the moment comes, but to make up for a tardy start would be much harder.

2. Cologne might profit from a worker merge or two before we turn it over to the Russians.

3. BUT, a vital point we've been overlooking: culture-generating buildings, including the happiness structures, disappear when a city changes hands, even by gift. This makes the Cologne gambit rather less attractive, though it's still a strong option and we should continue preparing for it. (Perhaps Scout grasped this point, since he didn't start happiness buildings in Cologne--negligence or genius? ;) :D)

4. It's unfortunate that we won't be able to research MoTrans--and Flight, unless we're lucky--at the four-turn rate without running an unacceptable deficit. We can address this problem by merging many of our 69 native workers, a good number of whom are now working on outer-ring jungle burns and other marginal projects. Loosely speaking, every worker merged into a good town should be worth 3 gpt, provided we pay attention to where the AI governors put their new citizens. So merging 30-40 of them might well move us back onto a five- or even four-turn research pace, while still leaving us with a reasonable labour force.

5. If we reach the MA, and then don't get Fission as our free tech, it'll be tempting to gift the Russians immediately into the MA to see what free tech they get. But I think we should resist the temptation, since it would probably mean relaxing our grip on the tech situation prematurely just to see the Russians get Rocketry.

6. Scout, I appreciate your foresight in saving the Intelligence Agency for a pre-build, but I think we ought to build it in one of our good cities. It's possible to imagine situations in which we'll want spies, and surely the two better pre-builds available (palace and BM) will be enough.

7. It wouldn't hurt to adjust our mix of military builds in the direction of more artillery. In vanilla, we can only assume that we'll get about one hit on a city's garrison per five artillery shots, so too much ain't enough, as they say in Texas :lol:.

8. Mad-bax/Karasu, if you're lurking: would it be permissible in this variant to use the UN as a pre-build, or can it never be started at all?

You can use the UN as a pre-build. Absolutely.

what are we using the un as a prebuild for? Manhaten project? Icbm's?

I second the Intelligence Agency idea - if the Cologne gambit doesn't work, we might need a few 007s before we are done...

MB, thanks for the answer. Mistfit, I wasn't planning to pre-build anything in particular with the UN; I just wanted to clarify our options.

....culture-generating buildings...disappear when a city changes hands... This makes the Cologne gambit rather less attractive, though it's still a strong option and we should continue preparing for it. (Perhaps Scout grasped this point, since he didn't start happiness buildings in Cologne--negligence or genius? ;) :D)I did grasp this point - and this is one of the reasons I am tempted to give Cologne away now - to allow Cathy the time to build a library or something to expand the borders. Hopefully she won't go Temple-Cathedral-Library-University, but it is unreasonable to expect her to build the UN there before the city can work 21 tiles.

It's unfortunate that we won't be able to research MoTrans--and Flight, unless we're lucky--at the four-turn rate without running an unacceptable deficit. We can address this problem by merging many of our 69 native workers, a good number of whom are now working on outer-ring jungle burns and other marginal projects. Loosely speaking, every worker merged into a good town should be worth 3 gpt, provided we pay attention to where the AI governors put their new citizens. So merging 30-40 of them might well move us back onto a five- or even four-turn research pace, while still leaving us with a reasonable labour force.I would be very careful about worker merges at this stage. The citizens getting added to our cities now are unhappy citizens. Because we opted out of early conquest, we are simply not going to get one of each lux in this game. As for jungle chops in "unproductive cities"... some of those outer cities are self-sustaining now. Any city surrounded by jungle is guaranteed to remain unproductive. Take a peek at Stuttgart, New Stuttgart, and New Nuremberg.

While I'm on a related subject, we should probably try to build Police Stations everywhere, even in the cities that aren't corrupt - to counter War Weariness. If the war lasts more than 5-6 turns, we need to be prepared to ratchet up the lux slider.

Regarding Intelligence Agency and Battlefield Medicine as pre-builds: I'm inclined to agree with Northern Pike - let's go ahead and build the Intelligence agency in a productive city. One Caveat: We don't have many productive coastal cities. Our productive coastal cities need to make naval units. I'd say a 3 or 4 to 1 mix of transports to destroyers. Although an aircraft carrier and some bombers would be nice, the pace of this game is so blistering that we should hold off on that unless we see a 40-turn UN build coming.

Artillery is good. We have a city or two that is capable of building an arty every other turn or so. I like having lots of Infantry. As a war develops, I nearly always need more. (Picket lines, resistance, etc....)

Sorry for the double-post, but I just had another thought.

On 4-turn research: The 50gpt deal for wines from Japan is up for re-negotiation. If he'll take coal and spices for his wines, that'll free up 50gpt.

IIRC, Mass Production is an expensive tech. We still might be able to get MT in 4 without running too much of a deficit.... but I think Mass-Production was a 5-turn tech running a surplus, so we're in fair shape.

Don't get too excited about hiring Scientists. The one or two times I played with them we were better off having the citizen on a tile. If we were going for a space race win it might be worth irrigating everything and growing our cities to hire some scientists... but I don't think it will be worth it in this game.

I would be very careful about worker merges at this stage. The citizens getting added to our cities now are unhappy citizens. Because we opted out of early conquest, we are simply not going to get one of each lux in this game.

True, but revenue now matters more than unhappiness after we get Fission and start the Russians on their UN build. War weariness in a democracy with large cities is a PITA, but not a PITA that would mean much in win/loss terms here. I agree that we can afford to wait and see how many turns MoTrans will take before merging, though.

I'm saying this without looking at the save, but Cologne will have access to its second-ring tiles in the direction of Moscow as soon as we give it to the Russians. It won't have twenty-one squares, but it won't be limited to nine either.

I agree with a high ratio of transports to destroyers. It's amazing how few offensive naval units one can get away with building.

@Mistfit: Are you ready, or do you have any questions?

I'm going to look over the last couple of pages and then post my got it incase I have questions

Edit: Plan of Attack

Ok - with out seeing the save the plan for my turns looks like:

1.) burn through the final Industrial era Techs MP->MT->hopefully buy Flight from Russia set queue to computers.
2.) No more gifting techs - I believe Russia will be doing the selling of these as soon as she can. So we may have everyone in the MA the turn after we gift it to Russia. Get gpt off table eith Japan try resourses and lux instead
3.) Prep Cologne to be gifted - tile improvements - culture improvements
4.) once we get MT build panzers like crazy
5.) Stop spending cash - build war chest
6.) no more per turn deals with Russia - leave current lux deal alone until we war

New Since last time I posted this:
Set up Konigsberg with a palace brebuild
Start the Int. Agency in a good town
More Arti
worker merge if not making city to unhappy
don't piss off Japan

@NP what is PITA?
Paper Insudtry Technical Association?
Palestinian Information Technology Agency?


Oh yeah Got it

Pain in the arse :)

Boy do I feel silly. Sometimes I look to indepth at things

I will play tonight and try to get to the point just before Fission and stop to discuss.

Note: This is one of my favorite days of the year at work. I work in Traverse City, MI and we have the National Cherry Festival going on right now. Every year they bring in the Blue Angels. They do fly-bys right over the top of my office. Very Cool

3.) Prep Cologne to be gifted - tile improvements - culture improvementsThis is the only point you missed... the cultural improvements will disappear when the city changes hands. Better to go ahead and give Cologne to Cathy now, so that she can build a library or something there...

It will be wrapped with a bow on my 1st turn then

After moving everyone out 1st of course

Better to go ahead and give Cologne to Cathy now, so that she can build a library or something there...

This is an exceptionally difficult call. Giving Cathy a chance to get a cultural expansion in Cologne before the UN becomes available would be good...but giving her the city with an empty build queue at the same time as Fission would be good too. Scout, do you know from experience that the AI civs immediately start cultural buildings in gifted cities, or is it more of a feeling?

EDIT: I've made a few experiments with gifting using other games, and it seems that the AI always makes an infantry-class unit its first build in a gifted city. This means that we can't expect the Russians immediately to start a cultural building--but on the other hand, it seems to kill the empty-build-queue argument. So I now tend to agree that we should transfer Cologne as soon as it's fully groomed.

Mistfit, if we're going to give Cologne to the Russians before Fission and so bet on a cultural expansion there, some of its unimproved second-ring tiles should be fully upgraded before we turn the city over, in particular (I'm not looking at the save, but I think I've got this right) the hill and the unpolluted mountain. EDIT: The unpolluted mountain is actually first-ring, so it's even more important to rail and mine it before we give up Cologne. And while it's difficult to know how many citizens the Russians will be able to keep happy, I'd worker-merge the city up to at least size thirteen before the transfer.

Apart from that tricky decision--and I'm sure no one's going to criticize you whatever you do--it looks as though you're all set, Mistfit. Good luck.

Well, since any distraction from work is good, one that's actually interesting must be terrific. :lol:

Anyone who read the above when it was hot off the presses ;), please note the important edits.

Mistfit, if we're going to give Cologne to the Russians before Fission and so bet on a cultural expansion there, some of its unimproved second-ring tiles should be fully upgraded before we turn the city over, in particular (I'm not looking at the save, but I think I've got this right) the hill and the unpolluted mountain. EDIT: The unpolluted mountain is actually first-ring, so it's even more important to rail and mine it before we give up Cologne. I improved those tiles before I finished my turns. Mistfit will find himself pulling SEVERAL workers off the mountain you reference; that and the hill are both mined and railroaded...

I know you did good work around Cologne, but we're talking about different hills and mountains. The first-ring mountain north of the city, and the second-ring hill which could easily be mistaken for jungle, are both as naked as Angelina Jolie an hour into a movie. ;) I know you had technical problems, so is it possible that the save you posted doesn't represent your final progress?

BTW, Mistfit, I enjoyed your speculations as to the meaning of PITA--much funnier than the right answer. :lol:

@NP: We were talking about different hills. :blush: And quit talkin' about Angelina Jolie gettin' naked.. not fair. Not fair at all. :p

Please post the save to the Submission thread for me, Thanks it's right here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/scout_SG002_AD1435.SAV)
Preturn:

I think I will wait 2 turns to gift Cologne - that is how many turns the infantry will take to complete. I see the "hidden" hill that needs worked.

Hmm.. Mistburg, nice little college town (and bigger than Scoutsburg) world renouned as a party school specializing in "underwater marble stacking" a four year degree. But I digress.

We have Iron and Spices going to Russia. 9 turns left on the Mystery gpt to Cathy and she is paying us 25 gpt for iron can be cancelled at any time.

Take our 50 gold per turn away from Japan. Renegotiate wines for coal and spices, WM

We have Rubber going to Mao for 9 turns no $ involved

9 turns on Rubber for Dyes with Ghandi

6 turns on us giving salt, 9 turns and 2 gpt, and we are giving ivory that could be renegotiated with Liz

And Joanie is giving us 10 gpt for spice can be renegotiated, and trading furs for incense for 6 more turns. Here again is the mystery 2 gpt for 9 turns. (what were you paying the women for scout? Hmmm...seems a bit seedy)

1 knight (he's Elite)
4 Cavalry
50 infantry
31 Artillery
3 transports
69 workers
1 settler

I fortify all of the infantry that came up in their respective towns
Lots of worker movements
Join a worker to Leipzig size 13 no growth
New Munich Transport I move 1 tile to coast to make it easier to see then fortify
Same with New Hamburg Transports
A 1/2 doz workers on goto towards jungle
Fortify arti where the were produced
I know it's not polite to do but I change a bunch of Infantry to Arti (50 Infantry -VS- 31 Arti)

Wow What a difference one round of turns makes. We have a real nice set-up here. Let's see if I can keep from messing it up.

IBT
Leipzig makes barracks and wants to start on a Sword no thanks how about a Police station instead due in 7
Konigsberg finishes a police station starts on Intelligence Agency due in 7
Bonn finishes Infantry and starts on police station due in 4
Dortmund Arti to Arti due in 2
New Berlin Arti to Police Station due in 5
New Frankfort Temple to Barrack due in 1 (ya never know we may need units at some point)
New Hannover Market to Bank due in 8

Turn 1 (1390AD)
Workers move and work
One more turn until the big gift
Move the units out of Cologne and into Frankfort

IBT
Russia Asks us to move troops out of her territory? I didn't know I has any there. OK
Finish MP go to MT (dangit I didn't check to see if I could have turn that down) Due in 4
Berlin finishes arti starts Ford Field (colosseum) Hey its our capital due in 2
Heidelburg infantry to arti due in 2
Salzburg arti to arti due in 2
New Frankfort Rax to Police Station in 8

Turn 2 (1395AD)
I figure out where our troops were in Cathy's back yard Kranoyarsk must have expanded to cover the Spice we were trying to work
Remember our discussion in the thread and Change Konigsberg to Palace and Berlin to the Agency. oops. No Harm no foul. But now the Lions wont be able to play in Berlin.
Join a worker to Berlin now size 14 I.A. in 6 i.p.o. 7
Move Everyone out of Cologne area and give it to Cathy (what an ingrate she's not even gracious)
I keep mass production to myself still no Flight

IBT
You are not going to believe it England Declares on the French.
India and France sign a MA against England. India declares as well
Dortmund Arti to Arti in 2
New Leipzig Arti to Arti in 3

Turn 3 (1400AD)
No trades available we still have monopoly on MP

IBT
Heidelburg Arti to Arti in 2
Stutgart Hospital to Temple in 2
Salzberg Arti to Arti in 2
New Hamburg Destroyer to Destroyer in 4
New Konigsberg Cathedral to Hospital in 6
New Munich Transport to Transport in 5

Turn 4 (1405AD)
Join some more workers, we are now down to 60 of em
play pop the weasle with polution
Can't turn down science yet

IBT
Bonn Police Station to Arti in 2
Dortmund Arti to Arti in 2

Turn 5 (1410AD)
zzz....
No flight yet can turn down science
Joanie furs for incense up next turn so I stop the deal we have with her for spices 10gpt to have a bargning chip

IBT
China and France sign against England. China Declares (dogpilesmileneeded)
MT in start flight in 5 ( to get 4 is big deficit)
Heidelburg arti to PANZER (oooh yeah) in 2
Nuremberg Factory to temple in 3
Stuttgart temple to arti in 3
Salzburg Arti to Panzer in 2
New Berlin Police to Panzer in 3
New Leipzig arti to Panzer in 3

Turn 6 (1415AD)
no flight yet
Had to give up 216 gold to get furs back from joanie (the brat must have bought inscense from someone else) It was either that or coal. I chose cash so she does not get to big for her breeches.
Get 140 of it back from India for Ivory

IBT
We complete the Intelligence Agency in Berlin
Berlin done with IA starts on a panzer due in one (it's now size 20 and producing 101 shields !!!)
Bonn Arti to Panzer in 3
Dortmund finishes Arti goes panzer in 3

Turn 7 (1420AD)
No Flight AI must be looking to research somthing else?

IBT
Berlin Panzer to Panzer in 1
Lepzig Arti to Panzer in 4
Heidelburg Panzer to panzer in 2
Salzburg Panzer to panzer in 2
New Hamburg Transport to Transport in 4
New Hannover Bank to Hospital in 7

Turn 8 (1425AD)
zzzz.....

IBT
Berlin Panzer to Panzer in 1
Nuremberg Temple to Hospital in 8
Stuttgart Arti to Panzer in 3
New Berlin Panzer to Panzer in 3
New Leipzig Panzer to Panzer in 3
New Konigsberg Hospital to Panzer in 3
New Frankfurt Police Station to Arti in 4
New Munich Transport to Transport in 5

Turn 9 (1430AD)
Re-up Dyes with Ghandi Had to throw in 100 gold, Rubber and Incense (I didn't want him to try to bully me IBT or just yank the lux)

IBT
Dangit...Liz is gone...France wiped her out 2 cities gone IBT.
Berlin gets polution and riots, hire a tax guy 4 other cities follow suit and riot (WHY? there was not problem at the end of last turn I checked Map Stat at the begining of the turn and F1 at the end. Did we have a lux from Liz I dont think we did. I don't get it... I hope you guys can explain. I guess it's possible they all grew to big last turn but I'm sure I checked)
Heidelburg Panzer to Panzer in 2
Bonn Panzer to Panzer in 3
Salzburg Panzer to Panzer in 2


Well I'm Stopping here. It's 2:38 Everybody is rioting, and we get flight next turn. NP if its ok with you Please take over from here, and see if you can't straighten out the mess I've made.

Post Turn Stats (a bit off because of rioting cities)

+1898 from cities
+15 from Tax Guys
+25 from other Cities
+50 from interest
Total income +1988

Currently 1611 Expenses

+368 Gpt gain

Treasury @ 3603
__________________________________________________ ___________________________
Army
1 Knight
2 Cav's
52 Infantry
46 Arti
5 Transports
2 Destroyers
9 Panzers
__________________________________________________ ___________________________
Tech
We are up MP on everyone
and up Radio on Japan

I'll Post the Save in a Sec.

Got it, and I've uploaded the save to the scoring system. It's also here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/scout_SG002_AD1435_01.SAV).

That looks like a good round. :thumbsup: Mystery riots happen to everyone occasionally, and they don't much matter in this case.

I like the look of all those Panzers :)

I think NP and Gengis are going to have some important turns!

@Northern Pike: Gengis has gone missing from GK2 again... and I'm hoping he's okay. As your turns unfold... if it looks like you can finish this in 20 turns, be my guest, If it doesn't look like you can finish it in 20, then we'll go through the order again.

Good luck!

@Mistfit: Looks like you played a pretty good setup there. :thumbsup: Sorry to hear about liz...

Speaking of Liz... How worried are we about the fact that there are now only 5 AI votes?

Incidentally, how clever is the AI when it comes to trashing its own rep? For instance, France just made a dogpile on Lizzy, and then wiped her. Will Joanie have trashed her rep with the others by doing this?

The AI will suffer rep hits if they abuse the rules too. That's probably the only thing working in our favor right now.

BTW - when the time comes... if the target civ has a MPP with somebody, we need to sign MPPs around, declare on them, then give them a tempting target so we don't get a dogpile on us...

And Tallanas: Be prepared to pick this up if NP doesn't finish it off. Gengis hasn't been around in a week or so...

I was just wondering is it possible that our GA just ended? Could that have been the cause of the mystery riots? The reason I ask is from turn 8 everything was looking great then turn nine hit and all hell breaks loose.

Notes:
I did NOT queue anything for Science, This will have to be done IBT.
Look at the military this is getting to the point that I think we could win by conquest with in 30 turns so maybe we can stop building arti, pump out a doz more panzers and call it quits.
NP or the rest of the team: If you'd like I can investagate Cologne and post my findings as long as NP does the same preturn.
NP - there are quite a few worker turns left before the end of turn 9 so move em where you want em.

The AI will suffer rep hits if they abuse the rules too. That's probably the only thing working in our favor right now.

I didn't express that too well :rolleyes: What I meant was, would Joanie have been sensible and cancelled all the alliances? I imagine not... :mischief:

BTW - when the time comes... if the target civ has a MPP with somebody, we need to sign MPPs around, declare on them, then give them a tempting target so we don't get a dogpile on us...

That will be harder to do if the target Civ is on the other contintent...

And Tallanas: Be prepared to pick this up if NP doesn't finish it off. Gengis hasn't been around in a week or so...

Yes, I hope nothing's wrong with Gengis. If he's having to take another enforced absence, I'll step up, with the necessary coaching from the rest of the team :)

Has NP looked at the mess I've left him with yet? My appoligies in advance if not

Speaking of Liz... How worried are we about the fact that there are now only 5 AI votes?

This just makes it more important that we should eliminate the Russians completely, to get rid of a certain vote against us and to get back to an odd number of total votes (it's easier to win 3-2 than 4-2). This is why we need to build the most powerful army possible while the Russians are working on the UN. Reaching a certain point in our military buildup and then stopping isn't the right idea.

Scout, thanks for the twenty-turn suggestion. But since the Russians will need fifteen turns to finish the UN even in the absolutely ideal case, the game will certainly continue past my round.

Mistfit, looking into Cologne before we have Fission would gratify our curiosity but wouldn't really help us, so let's not spend the money. I think we can tell just from Cologne's city radius that the Russians have built a cultural structure there.

I'm writing this without checking back, but I think our GA ended long before the mystery riots. The riots weren't caused by growth in the individual cities, either, as we can tell from the food boxes. :confused:

EDIT: Cross-post with Mistfit. No apology required. :D

1435 (0): We discover Flight and enter the Modern Age, and I choose Rocketry as our research target. We receive Rocketry as our free tech anyway. :mad: Well, I said that trick wasn't reliable.

We have only one source of aluminum, and Scout will be pleased to hear that it's on the northeastern island, near New Bonn.

The source of coal near Mistburg runs out. Excessive electricity consumption at the party university, I suppose. :lol:


1440 (1): Hmm. We can't research Fission in four turns. We can do it in five (90% science) at a deficit of about 250 gpt, or in six (80% science) at about -90 gpt. I assign every useful scientist (not many, since we have so few totally corrupt cities), merge eight workers, and optimize our cities for commerce, but I can't get us to a five-turn pace at the 80% rate. So I accept the 90% rate and the larger deficit, since I'd hate to lose the game by that one turn. If nothing else, we should be able to turn the science rate down a lot on the last turn of the run.

Berlin completes a colosseum, so that it can resume working all 21 tiles and producing a Panzer a turn.


1445 (2): I switch various towns which have just completed Panzers to wealth, only until we get Fission. We'll have plenty of time to continue the military buildup while we're waiting for the Russians to build the UN.

Four more worker merges put us over the threshold, and I'm able to cut the science rate to 80%, +14 gpt, with Fission still due in four turns.

A second source of coal runs out, this one around Dortmund. We still have two, though one's committed to the Japanese at the moment.

The Russians and the French are the AI tech leaders, needing only Mass Production and MoTrans to enter the MA.

And a welcome development:

And a welcome development:

Talk about a cliffhanger!!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2-1445AD.JPG

I accept the city's return, of course, and Joanie remains polite. I'm not sure flips affect the AI's attitude at all.


1450 (3)-1455 (4): Nothing much to report. We improve tiles and wait for Fission.


1460 (5): We're on the last turn of our tech run, but I can't turn the science level down, which is the downside of our barely qualifying for the 80% rate.

Ugh, the Russians and the Indians form an MPP. Well, that'll just require some careful technique from us.

We discover Fission, and Konigsberg completes the Manhattan Project. A quick, unreliable check suggests that there are seven uranium sources in the world. We have four, the Japanese two, and the Russians one (which we could take on the first turn of a war, with proper tactics.)

I choose Ecology as our next tech goal. We should have plenty of time to get to Synthetic Fibers and modern armour before the war.

We get two palace expansions, but the place is still a half-built mess. Evidently our people consider us contemptible weaklings for keeping them out of war. :D


1465 (6): This is the moment of truth, so I spend 1483 gold to look into all fourteen Russian cities. Cologne looks like this:

Ah, the sweet torture of dial-up, eh, Tallanas? :rotfl:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2-1465AD.JPG

:lol: Indeed!

To make a long story short, no other Russian city is worth a d___ (only Kiev even has a factory), so the Cologne gambit is brilliantly vindicated--:clap:, Mistfit. Unfortunately, I suspect that the Russians are already committed to building that infantry in Cologne, and experiments with another game confirm the assumption. So we'll have to wait until they have one turn to go on the infantry before giving them Fission.

To get a fuller sense of our options, I look into Paris and Tours as well. Paris doesn't have a factory and doesn't come into consideration. Tours is interesting, at 37 spt with a factory, but Cologne is still preferable.


1470 (7): Cologne still has two turns to go on its infantry build, because the Russians have lost a luxury and hired clowns, reducing the city to 40 spt. This is probably good luck, because it removes a dangerous conflict with Smolensk, which will be completing a Cossack next turn and seems to come before Cologne in the city priority list.

We get another palace expansion.


1475 (8): Cologne is about to complete its infantry. Only one other Russian city, Tblisi, is about to complete a build, and all the evidence suggests that it comes after Cologne in priority; so it's time to roll the dice.

I check the overall tech situation first. There's been no change, with the Russians and the French both still needing MassProd and MoTrans to reach the MA.

We give the Russians MassProd and MoTrans, they too receive Rocketry as their free tech, and we give them Fission. G__, Cathy looks foul in her power suit.:thumbdown

And on the interturn we see:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2-1475AD.JPG

Yes, in Cologne, not Tblisi. :D


1480 (9): Cathy's already told Joanie every secret except Fission, and the French are in the MA. Chicks.... ;)

I cancel all our wealth builds, and we return to assembling a gratuitously enormous Panzer force.

I weigh the pros and cons of giving the Russians a fifth luxury, and decide to do it...but when I investigate Cologne again I find they've gotten back to five lux by themselves. So the city is at 46 spt, with all eleven citizens working, and the UN is due in twenty turns, given that it costs the AI 900 shields at monarch. Cologne's about to gain a twelfth citizen, but he'll be a clown; and I don't think there's anything we can do about that, since the Russians now have all the luxuries we're in a position to give them.

One of our uranium mines becomes exhausted. They must really have tweaked the rate at which resources run out between vanilla and the later versions.


1485 (10)-1495 (12): Not much, except that the French form Mutual Protection Pacts with the Indians and the Russians.

The Japanese, Chinese, and Indians are still in the IA, so we were obviously right to stop spreading techs around when we did.

The French have just learned Fission, so presumably they'll start the UN as soon as we press Enter. Given the strength of our army, it won't be a problem if they beat the Russians to the UN, though that isn't likely.

I take a final look into Cologne. It's up to 48 spt, with the UN due in 16 turns, and the twelfth citizen is indeed a clown. It doesn't look as though anything can happen now to make the city more productive, unless the Russians get a sixth luxury, so 16 turns is probably the best case.

The MPP situation will require delicate handling, but all in all we have exactly the position we want. As Tallanas has pointed out, nothing is going to prohibit the Russians from calling a vote on the one interturn when they'll control the UN, so we'll need to have everything set up diplomatically before they complete it.

The Russian army is a joke. In all my investigation of Russian cities, I didn't see a better garrison than three infantry and a Cossack. So our eliminating the Russians when we attack them isn't an optimistic goal, it's something that should happen as a matter of course. In fact, if we keep accumulating Panzers, and they don't deploy mech inf in the next sixteen turns, it should be possible to take all their cities in one turn.

I've concentrated all our attack units--Panzers, artillery, four settlers for tactical use, and that one hopeful elite knight--next to Berlin.

It's an extreme precaution, but we might want to start building transports in Nuremberg after it competes its infantry.

I'm afraid the next player faces a boring round of just waiting as the Russians work on the UN. So it seems, anyway--I don't mean to tempt fate. :)

1495 AD, end of turn (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/scout_SG002_AD1495_01.SAV)

1480 (9): Cathy's already told Joanie every secret except Fission, and the French are in the MA. Chicks.... ;)

:lol:

I cancel all our wealth builds, and we return to assembling a gratuitously enormous Panzer force.

Hmm, I'm not sure we can ever have too many panzers ;)

All in all, this turnset looks like the brilliant implementation of an absolutely inspired, outrageous plan :)

:clap: NP and Mistfit!

Tal

P.S. You'd think Cathy would be a bit suspicious, wouldn't you? :lol: First Cologne, then Fission so she can build the UN in Cologne and now she can practically see the layer of smog that's being created over the whole of Germany by the fumes from the Panzer Brigade's diesel engines...

Cathy! Two plus two does, in this case, definitely equal four!!

Cathy! Two plus two does, in this case, definitely equal four!!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

The MPP situation will require delicate handling, but all in all we have exactly the position we want. As Tallanas has pointed out, nothing is going to prohibit the Russians from calling a vote on the one interturn when they'll control the UN, so we'll need to have everything set up diplomatically before they complete it.

I believe I'll be up next, since we haven't heard from GK for so long :( Since the Modern Age is not my strong suit, and diplomacy is too important to be messed up, we might need some discussion around this point...


The Russian army is a joke. In all my investigation of Russian cities, I didn't see a better garrison than three infantry and a Cossack. So our eliminating the Russians when we attack them isn't an optimistic goal, it's something that should happen as a matter of course. In fact, if we keep accumulating Panzers, and they don't deploy mech inf in the next sixteen turns, it should be possible to take all their cities in one turn.

Now that would be spectacular! I hereby charge the player (whoever it is) who gets to declare war to SAVE at that point. After the game is finished, i would love to be able to go back and see this in action...[/quote]


I've concentrated all our attack units--Panzers, artillery, four settlers for tactical use, and that one hopeful elite knight--next to Berlin.

That knight has an awful lot of expectation to live up to!


I'm afraid the next player faces a boring round of just waiting as the Russians work on the UN. So it seems, anyway--I don't mean to tempt fate. :)

If it does turn out to be me, this is a good thing :) My strong suit, as I've said, is not necessarily the Modern Age, and it is certainly not Modern Age Warfare (although in this case, it's not exactly likely to be a fair fight). However, my forte is handing over enormous stacks of lovingly prepared military units and great big pots full of cash!

Just ask Scout - in another SG I handed over to him 57 Sipahi, 5k cash and a Scientific Leader ;)

No doubt Scout will mention the Byzantine SoD, but I'm sure we can hush that up :mischief:

Again, nice turns!

we might need some discussion around this point...

Sure. In a nutshell, the turn before the Russians complete the UN we'll want to reach RoP agreements with all the other civs except Russia, and give them each 100 gold. (I believe Bamspeedy has established that larger cash gifts don't confer any more benefit.) MPPs with civs already having MPPs with Russia will probably also be necessary, though more dangerous, since they could get us into wars in whatever turns elapse before we're offered a UN vote. But we can discuss all this in as much detail as you like when the time comes.

Bravo!!! To quote a cheesy early 80's show "I love it when a plan comes together"

Just ask Scout - in another SG I handed over to him 57 Sipahi, 5k cash and a Scientific Leader ;) Ugh... who was up next in that? Did they ever figure out where Hannibal jumped his capitol? As Brother Bede said "... too many sips while playing with Sips..."

But man, that was fun. :D

NICE turns NP! :goodjob:

@Tallanas: The whole MPP thing is fairly straightforward. Sign MPP with whoever Cathy has signed a MPP with, put lots of infantry in anything that a Cossack can hit, stick a worker or two on the border... maybe one weak unit. Declare war, let her hit you, and watch the world declare on her. DO NOT sign any alliances. Just finish her.

[offtopic] [offtopic] Ugh... who was up next in that? Did they ever figure out where Hannibal jumped his capitol? As Brother Bede said "... too many sips while playing with Sips..."

But man, that was fun. :D

NICE turns NP! :goodjob:

@Tallanas: The whole MPP thing is fairly straightforward. Sign MPP with whoever Cathy has signed a MPP with, put lots of infantry in anything that a Cossack can hit, stick a worker or two on the border... maybe one weak unit. Declare war, let her hit you, and watch the world declare on her. DO NOT sign any alliances. Just finish her.

[offtopic] Did that SGL ever get used?

Back to this game! Okay - I am sure I can cope with the diplomatic side, should the need arise - I will have to check but I think that the UN will be finished just about within my 12.

I might have an interesting Turn Report to make next!

Got it, and playing today...

:ar15::sniper::ar15::sniper::ar15:

Go get em Tal!!!!!

Tal: If you think you can finish it in 12-15 turns, be my guest.

And no, I didn't think of a good use for the SGL in EOC2....

Pre-flight

Check around the diplomatic situation, and Russia's resources - I wonder where she is getting her rubber...? Ah, under St petersburg. Annoying, that means she has oil, rubber and aluminium without trade. In other words, she can build all modern military units, and her war chest stands at over 1k. I don't think it will save her :)

IBT - Russians request audience... She wants an MPP/ROP - maybe she is waking up to the danger after all. I give her 1g and send her packing. The French are building the UN.

Turn 1 - 1500 AD

Hamburg begins Battlefield Medicine. My reasoning is that you never know what wars may bring, and it will stop her producing only 4 Panzers. We are likely to have plenty of tanks, so I think the ability to heal anywhere might be more useful.

Worker stuff, moving units to their stacks. I am also moving the fleet around to Talsburg. It's closer to every conceivable enemy and at the end of a railroad, so... better, I think.

Turn science down to 40%, Ecology in 1, +716gpt.

IBT - Ecolgy comes in, start on Synth Fibers. By the time that arrives, our war chest should allow mass upgrading to Modern Armour... :drool:

Turn 2 - 1505 AD

Mapstat tells me Cathy spent over 700 gold last turn... :hmm:

Nothing else exciting... Set science to 60%, Synth Fibers in 7, +169gpt (getting it in 6 would cost over 1000g)

IBT - Russia has researched Amphibious Warfare...

Turn 3 - 1510 AD

Workers and military moves - also, the Luftwaffe is formed with the intention of being a small bomber force (there is a lot of terrain in the west of Russia that is not "ground-unit-friendly"...

IBT - :sleep:

Turn 4 - 1515 AD

India and China have motorized transport... I decide to try to get MPPs sorted out with that island, possibly in exchange for flight. Think again - it's too early for MPPs, and at the moment, Ghandi does not need anything for a MPP. That's nice of him.

I also have to move workers into Cologne to clear up pollution. This will annoy Cathy, but I can't afford to let the UN be delayed. She can just get grumpy :)

IBT - Cathy makes grumbling noises about my workers... Our supply of furs disappears. Oh. My. God. Can we say rebellion? And all for the sake of a few mink. And we have more pollution appear than ever before... Happy place! Happy place! Meanwhile, China enters the modern age...

Turn 5 - 1520 AD

To be continued... I just wanted to share the pain!

Turn 5 - 1520 AD

Joanie is being a bit naughty over the furs deal. She's a real ball-breaker since she saved her head. We end up discussing the following. We get Furs, her Map, 45 gold and our MPP. She gets Uranium. Personally, I think that the uranium is worthless to her at this stage. She can build Nuclear subs... Unless she researches Space Flight! If she does, she could build a tac nuke or two. If she does and then gives it to Russia, our little war could get messy.

The other alternative is to swap Ecology for uranium. This puts both her and Russia (since Joan and Cathy seem to swap stories like 10 year olds at a sleep-over) nearer Modern Armour.

I am taking a quick break - let me know what you think, if you can.

Joanie is being a bit naughty over the furs deal. She's a real ball-breaker since she saved her head. We end up discussing the following. We get Furs, her Map, 45 gold and our MPP. She gets Uranium. Personally, I think that the uranium is worthless to her at this stage. She can build Nuclear subs... Unless she researches Space Flight! If she does, she could build a tac nuke or two. If she does and then gives it to Russia, our little war could get messy.Do we need a MPP with France? (Does France have one with Russia?)

It sounds to me like she wants uranium pretty badly. I'm not really all that concerned about nukes. The only time I've ever been nuked by the AI is when I nuke first. (I haven't tested this extensively.) I think she wants uranium for spaceship fuel.

I would not trade Ecology. We really don't need Modern Armor to contend with...

The other alternative is to swap Ecology for uranium. This puts both her and Russia (since Joan and Cathy seem to swap stories like 10 year olds at a sleep-over) nearer Modern Armour.Now wait, does she already have Ecology? I'm a little confused on the tech here.

I would try to get the furs. We need the happiness... don't be afraid to take research down a notch and ratchet the lux slider up. We've reached endgame.

No, Ecology is ours alone. I'm glad you agree on the uranium, then... And yes, France and Russia and India have a 3-way MPP...

Comme ca, as they say in Paris ;)

I've never been nuked myself either so I'd tend to agree with Scout on this one

Edit your screenie shows ROP not MA is it the same?

And the deal... After which she is gracious :)

Edit - sorry for the shoddy image below, not quite sure what happened there... :rolleyes:

Edit your screenie shows ROP not MA is it the same?

No it doesn't... ;) It shows MPPs, not ROPs or MAs...

I was hoping we could keep France in the Industrial age....That bob hair cut is so much cuter than this Post Chemo looks she sports in the Modern age

My bad...being a bit color bling this morning....

Turn 5 - 1520 AD part 2

Deal done, furs back on, should be happy next turn... Most of the pollution has been cleared also...

IBT - The people love the new furs so much, they extend the palace :) A new source of iron appears near Bonn

Turn 6 - 1525 AD

No more pollution, army has grown to truly obscene proportions... New Cologne is the only place that needs a clown, sadly. No marketplace and production of 3spt...

IBT - The AI slumber party learns all about Amphibious Warfare...

Turn 7 - 1530 AD

Start some tactical fortifications, otherwise the workers have nothing to do...

IBT - If ever there was an advisor whose facial expression tells the whole story, it's this one... Not again!! :gripe:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Good_News!.JPG

Phew!!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Better_news!.JPG

My take on the good news:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Good_News_2.JPG

My take on the good news::rotfl:

Somebody should submit that to the Screenshot of the Day!

If you want to see some very talented graphics people check out this fun with graphics (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=92056&page=1) I found this in Lyonesse's sig. Lots of funny stuff.

Now to make this not be spam or thread jacking:

Nice turns so far Tal

:lol:

Beautiful, Mistfit!

Turn 8 - 1535 AD

Global warming turns grassland to plains near Berlin... Science down to 30%, Synth Fi in 1, +648 gold...

IBT - Synth Fi comes in, start on computers, although research will be scaled down in favour of the War Chest.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/BatMed.JPG

How good is that picture? One of my favourite wonder pics...

Turn 9 - 1540 AD

Modern Armour arrives - praise be! Those Russkis are in for a severe kicking now. The war chest stands at 6k, with 600 coming in per turn - time to upgrade some of those Panzers, I think. Ah! Nothing like spending 3k on upgrades :) By the way, yes, this is taking me all day... And yes, it's not terribly exciting!!

IBT - Nothing interesting

Turn 10 - 1545 AD

More forts, more cleaning duty, lots more military.

IBT - Still no sign of the UN!! What is she doing??

I would sugest that an investagate city should be done on your last turn so plans for the next turns can take place.

Edit Nice Cross Post Scout: with in the same min. :lol:

How much gold have we got after upgrading the panzers? Can we spare enough for an investigation of Cologne?

Turn 11 - 1550 AD

Same again... :sleep: Amuse myself by making sure that every city that is feasibly attackable by Russia has 4 Infantry and 2 Artillery units as protection. The Tank Corps grows, to a bladder-weakening 87 Modern Armour and 6 Panzers (these 6 are more for their "German-ness than anything... ;) )

IBT - Ghandi offers Amphibious War for Rocketry - I give him 100 gold for having the front to ask :) This is also the first of the "goodwill gifts" I am preparing, even though Ghandi was already gracious... Berlin finishes its Mass Transit System (pollution was getting bad). A Russian TANK appears at our borders... :) Russia's war chest is over 1k...

Turn 12 - 1555 AD

More of the same... More tanks, more infantry, more artillery, even a bank! Making lots of money (about +450gpt), still have a War Chest of 4500, and so... I decide to take a sneaky peek at Cologne...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Sneakypeek1555.JPG

In the above pic, you can see my Maginot line and the Russian tank that has appeared as a result - this is perfect, as it seems that the T-34 pictured might be the one who is lured into starting the war...

Scout, since I have spent 12 turns setting up, do you have any objection to me doing 3 more? That way, you don't have to sit through 3 turns of boring production, and I can actually do the diplomacy which might be interesting!

If you would feel happier having a couple of turns to orientate yourself, rather than being thrown in at the deep end, that's more than fine too ;)

Can you get a screenie showing the Russian Empire so we can discuss war tactics?

If you want 3 more, then be my guest.

I'm actually halfway tempted to let you do the honors of finishing the game since you've been so patient to this point... you deserve the fun, and I think the experience would be good for you.

Would you feel comfortable with that?

What does the rest of the team think about that?

By the way - save it at some opportune moment in a turn or three case Mistfit wants to have a little fun on the side after the smoke clears and the 'official' results are posted.

hmm...what was the name of this team? SGOTM2 Germany - Team scout I personally think you should be the one with the glorious taking of the UN

I do like the idea of getting the save to have some fun stomping the Russians

hmm...what was the name of this team? SGOTM2 Germany - Team scout I personally think you should be the one with the glorious taking of the UN

I do like the idea of getting the save to have some fun stomping the RussiansThe operative word there is TEAM. Let's not forget the source for the whole gift-Cologne-to-the-Russians gambit. I will not soon forget that... excellent job of 'thinking outside the box'. Then there was NPs beautiful execution of that gambit.

I have really enjoyed this SG.

I've lurked lots and lots of SG's and this one has the #1 ingredient for a sucessfull game. Comunication.

I've had a blast.

Can you get a screenie showing the Russian Empire so we can discuss war tactics?

No problemo...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/TargetAcquired!.JPG

If you want 3 more, then be my guest.

Much obliged :hatsoff:


hmm...what was the name of this team? SGOTM2 Germany - Team scout I personally think you should be the one with the glorious taking of the UN

That was why I wanted to take just 3 more :)

The operative word there is TEAM.

All the best teams have leaders, though ;)

In my games I tend to do the peaceful endings (UN or Space) so I don't do much warring after Steam. Do we get to use the Enemy rails? Or only after a city has been taken?

This will be a 2-turn war, unless France can take Sevastopol, Odessa, and St. Petersburg for us. Unless I can make a RoP with France work in our favor...

Tal: if you haven't finished already, fortify one worker in Berlin for me.

If you could Scout I'd appreciate it if you could either detail your plans for the war or give a fairly detailed turn report on how it went so I can see how the pro's do it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/sgotm2_scout_final_SCHEME.jpg

IBT - another T-34 appears, near Funfkirchen...

Turn 13 - 1560 AD

Task Force Riga sets off on a clandestine mision to arrive at Russia's western outpost on the same turn as war is declared. How's that for forward planning? Task Force Odessa also gets the green light...

A special forces unit disguised as Workers, and under the codename Tal's Gambit, sets off through the jungle towards Krasnoyarsk...

IBT - This is water off a duck's back by now... We lose our dyes, of course...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Dammit!!.JPG

Russia and France have Space Flight... :eek:

Tokugawa's decision to commit suicide rather threw me! The last few turns are taking slightly longer than anticipated :lol:

Ok, since I am not an expert on MPPs, I am going to hand this over now, Scout. Apologies for not being able to hand you a save right before UN completion.

What I don't understand is this - India's MPPs with us and Russia are off the table. Why? I didn't even get asked to declare war...

What is the minimum amount of MA that you will attack a city with?
I presume you will attack in waves. Example take enough arti and Ma to take Cologne, leaving the rest of the units in our territory. Take the city then move up the rest now that it is our territory then rinse and repeat

For some odd reason I have a tune running through my head. It's actually rather disturbing in its proper context (and it disturbs me a little that I like this song)... but... anyway, here are the lyrics:

The sun on the meadow is summery warm
The stag in the forest runs free
But gathered together to greet the storm
Tomorrow belongs to me

The branch on the linden is leafy and green
The Rhine gives its gold to the sea
But somewhere a glory awaits unseen
Tomorrow belongs to me

The babe in his cradle is closing his eyes
The blossom embraces the bee
But soon says the whisper’ arise’ arise
Tomorrow belongs to me

Now Fatherland’ Fatherland’ show us the sign
Your children have waited to see
The morning will come
When the world is mine
Tomorrow belongs to me

What I don't understand is this - India's MPPs with us and Russia are off the table. Why? I didn't even get asked to declare war...Who do we currently have MPPs with? If we have a MPP with India, we will be at war with Japan the moment the Japanese attack anything in India's borders...

The current Diplomatic situation...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Theweb!.JPG

This is gonna get "interesting"... :lol:

With India sandwiched between China and Japan, I seriously don't want to sign anything with anyone on the other side of the pond. I only hope Japan doesn't send any troops against France before the UN vote.

We should be able to get France, China, and India.... unless France is the #2 candidate...

China, India, and us, versus France... Japan will either vote for us or abstain.

I think we can pull this off.

This is how it was the turn before... :hmm:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Web1560.JPG

My guess is that the MPP between Russia and India ran out at a very good time for us. I would seriously hate to be in a war with India... but I would not sign a MPP with a nation already at war. Trading one vote for another would be like a snake eating its tail.

This is gonna be one of the more interesting turnsets I've ever played... maybe even more challenging than my last round in Bugs1...

But how did our MPP with India come to nothing? Is there a get-out clause? Could India somehow be responsible for the war?

Uploading the save file to the server now :)

Could India somehow be responsible for the war?Possibly, but in order for France to declare on Japan, the Japanese had to attack something of India's within Indian borders.

Possibly, but in order for France to declare on Japan, the Japanese had to attack something of India's within Indian borders.

Which should have triggered our MPP...

Curiouser and curiouser...

Which should have triggered our MPP...I think I have figured out what may have happened. Remember in my last turnset when I noted that India had no harbors? It appears that our MPP with India was bundled with a Dyes for Rubber/Spices trade.

Apparently the trade route was broken before the MPP could be triggered. India must have been using Japan's harbors. Not that it matters, but I bet India takes a hit for breaking a deal.

I bet if you trade maps around and do a map check, there is no overland link between China and India... (remember that long war India fought with China?) I bet India can't trade through China's harbors...

This is most interesting...

Round-up

Task Force Riga is on the way - it consists of one Destroyer and two transports with 3 MA, 3 Cav, 1 knight and one infantry. Target is Riga, a size 3 city.

Task Force Odessa is somewhat stronger. 2 Destroyers, 2 transports with 8 MA, 2 Infantry, 6 Artillery. Their targets are Odessa and Yakutsk.

In total, we have 78 Infantry, 79 Artillery, 96 Modern Armour and 6 Panzers.

The War Chest stands at 4606g, +413gpt, science at 40%, computers in 4.

Like I say, the Russians and the French are both up Amphibious Warfare and Space Flight. Watch out for those Tac Nukes!!

Edit - I'm rather pleased with the state of play here, apart from Tokugawa's ritual seppuku ploy. My one regret is that I haven't got a SoD to hand you, Scout... :( Kind of breaks with tradition!

I think I have figured out what may have happened. Remember in my last turnset when I noted that India had no harbors? It appears that our MPP with India was bundled with a Dyes for Rubber/Spices trade.

Apparently the trade route was broken before the MPP could be triggered. India must have been using Japan's harbors. Not that it matters, but I bet India takes a hit for breaking a deal.

I bet if you trade maps around and do a map check, there is no overland link between China and India... (remember that long war India fought with China?) I bet India can't trade through China's harbors...

This is most interesting...

I am a Dunce. Capital D.

I actually checked to see why we lost our dyes - there is no land route from Chittagong/Shantung, the dye region, that stays within Indian territory, and neither city has a harbour.

So, Japan declares war and the dyes are cut - India thus breaks the dyes/rubber/MPP deal, and we don't have to declare war. India's rep takes a hit, but they are still polite. In fact, everyone is still smiling at us.

My mind is put to rest somewhat.

From the above Pic no one seems ticked at us anyway

In fact, everyone is still smiling at us.In "due time" this too shall change. :devil2:

78 Infantry, 79 Artillery, 96 Modern Armour and 6 Panzers 3 Destroyers and 4 transports. If that doesn't count as a SoD I dont know what does. If any one fires a nuke it will trash his rep with everyone, ally or not.

If that doesn't count as a SoD I dont know what does.Tal was referring to an "enemy" stack of doom. ;)

Yes... In fact, the first instance of this was in this very game... Let me go back and check what page. Basically, when we entered the Middle Ages, there were one or two rather enormous stacks of barbarian horsemen, since barbs were set to "raging" - my turns ended when one of these stacks hoved into view. Scout's first turn consisted of about 20 messages saying how much cash had just been robbed and "We must build our military"

:mischief:

Edit - check out posts 212 and 224, pages 11 and 12 :)

Yes I remember reading that. This type of SoD is much better. One that we control

I think I have figured out what may have happened. Remember in my last turnset when I noted that India had no harbors? It appears that our MPP with India was bundled with a Dyes for Rubber/Spices trade.

Apparently the trade route was broken before the MPP could be triggered. India must have been using Japan's harbors. Not that it matters, but I bet India takes a hit for breaking a deal.

I bet if you trade maps around and do a map check, there is no overland link between China and India... (remember that long war India fought with China?) I bet India can't trade through China's harbors...

This is most interesting...
If this is the case how did France get drawn in? does she have a route we dont?

If this is the case how did France get drawn in? does she have a route we dont?Probably because she signed a straight-up MPP. If we had done that, we'd be at war now. Since our MPP came bundled with trades for resources, the MPP was "broken" when the trade route (for the resources) was broken.

It will be interesting to see if this is a rep hit on us, or India. It will be crystal clear in pre-flight... when I go to negotiate a MPP with France...

"Somebody" broke the deal. I hope Ghandi gets "credit" for that...

We still have a MPP with France :)

Okay - I feel silly again. Time for me to shut up and take this team to a glorious victory or wooden spoon.

So which one will France honor (or honour for tal's sake) the one with us or the one with Russia? This should indeed be an interesting turn set.


Edit: @ scout --- Or both

So which one will France honor (or honour for tal's sake) the one with us or the one with Russia? This should indeed be an interesting turn set.That's why Tal is sending the "Special Operations Forces" to the border disguised as workers. The AI has a fetish about capturing workers... my plan is to declare war, sit back, and let Cathy take a worker.... triggering the MPP and causing France to declare war on Russia.

At least, that's Plan A. Since France will probably be the other UN candidate, I will only wait one turn for this.

What I haven't decided is whether or not to let Cathy get the UN good and complete, since she might get that first opportunity to call a UN vote...

It's a good thing it's not my turn set it would be my luck that Cologne would flip back to us the turn before she finished the dang thing.


Edit: I hope I didn't just jinx us :(

What I haven't decided is whether or not to let Cathy get the UN good and complete, since she might get that first opportunity to call a UN vote...

:eek: I hope this is a joke, or misleadingly worded? We have to let Cathy finish the UN, and take the risk (zero, if we've done things properly) of her calling a vote; there isn't another option here. :eek:

EDIT: On reflection, I suppose you were ruminating on the timing of our war with Russia. I think we should strongly incline towards letting Cathy finish the UN before we declare, just to keep things simple and straightforward; but if you feel there's any danger of Russia's winning a UN vote held in peacetime, it's your call entirely.

Excellent set-up round, Tallanas. :goodjob:

Another book to read, after I've been away from the thread for less than a day. :D As a couple of you have said, it's great that we have this level of communication.

EDIT: Superb doctored screenshot, Mistfit. :lol::D:lol:

:eek: I hope this is a joke, or misleadingly worded? We have to let Cathy finish the UN, and take the risk (zero, if we've done things properly) of her calling a vote; there isn't another option here. :eek: :mischief:

EDIT: Superb doctored screenshot, Mistfit. :lol::D:lol:It "found it's way" into the maintenance thread... or maybe it was the discussion thread... :mischief:

In-flight check

1565 AD

I want 20-turn deals going with every civ but Russia.

Renew Wines with Japan, up the ante to include Gems to us. We give coal, spices, Ivory, Incense, and Rocketry.

It would seem our rep with Ghandi is damaged after all. He will offer us 250g+WM for Saltpeter, but not 1gpt. I offer him 1gpt for 1g, and gift him the stupid salt. Gift Rocketry to Ghandi.

Gift Rocketry to Mao. Trade spices for 1gpt+WM

We then negotiate a Right-of-Passage with France.

This is beautiful if it works. Task for Yatusk disembarks S-SE of Poitiers. Task force Riga disembarks near York.

Put a few workers along the border, and a Modern Armor in each border city for good measure.

Some worker moves... here we go.

IBT - doesn't matter. We build a bunch of stuff. WLTKD kicks off all over the place because I just jacked the lux tax.

1570 AD

Investigate Cologne. UN Due Next Turn. (Just checking...)

Task force Riga is now in position, in neutral territory. Task force Yatusk is in position.

Press <Enter>

IBT - the French request an audience. World Maps? Why not. We build a bunch of stuff...

The "Russian" city of Cologne completes the United Nations. :devil2:

No UN vote.

I'm trying to remember if demanding a city is a rep hit or an attitude hit. Doesn't matter, we are now at war with Mother Russia.

IBT - The war is initiated by a Russian bomber, who is promptly shot down by our Luftwaffe.

France declares war on Russia, and then Russia attacks France....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/01_Sgtotm2_scout_India_Russians.jpg

Incredibly, Russian tanks kill 2 of our Modern Armor.... and capture some of our workers! (Oh Noo!!!)

Turn 2 (1580)

Time for the German War Machine to come to life. I wake our Modern... Holy crap. I haven't had a stack like this since I played Chieftain! :crazyeye:

****Battle for Cologne*****
1st MA retreats, 2nd kills infantry flawlessly. Blitzes again, kills infantry, Promotes. 3rd MA kills infantry flawlessly, promotes, blitzes conscript infantry, and retreats. We take the city, and I forget to do a screencap.

Sorry team.

This is interesting. Every single one of those citizens is Russian. How is this possible?

Take the elite Modern armor and go after a tank near Mistburg.

How appropriate and symbolic. Our first Military Great Leader is born at Mistburg.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/02_Sgtotm2_scout_Mistfits_Gambit.jpg

What to do? Rush a wonder? Pooh, feh. I make an army, load that sucker with Panzers, and go after Kiev.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/03_Sgtotm2_scout_Panzer_Army.jpg

Unbelievable. A single russian tank kills our Panzer Army. What a pisser.
That's okay, a few MA later, and the city is ours.

A few more MAs later, and we capture Moscow. This time I do remember a screenie.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/04_Sgtotm2_scout_Moscow.jpg

Next we go after Minsk. A modern armor finally promotes on its first round of combat, blitzes the Cossack in Minsk. He captures Minsk, but fails his promotion board.

It takes 6 Modern Armor to take Tblisi, but they had to cross more terrain. I disband 2 captured artillery pieces for an instant Library.

It takes only 2 Modern Armor to kill an infantry and Cossack defending Smolensk, which opens up the border a bit. I can now reach Odessa with the main force.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/05_Sgtotm2_scout_smolensk.jpg

Three Modern Armor later, Odessa is ours. Time to turn the flanks.

Novgorod falls after 3 Modern Armor assault it.

Coventry falls next, though it takes a half dozen MA to do the job.

I lose 4 MA at Sverdlosk before I realize I'm crossing a river. Approach from a different angle and dispatch the defenders there. I swear I think it took a dozen MA to take that city.

4 or 5 Modern Armors later, Sevastopol falls.

5 Modern Armor later, St. Petersburg falls.

A few MA later, Yatusk falls.

The Russian Capitol is now located at Riga. Our first Modern Armor in there almost runs over a Chinese Rifleman. What is HE doing there?

I take the Elite knight and rail him all the way back to a longbow I saw.

Aw dangit. The Modern Armor can't cross the jungle at Krasnoyarsk. This will be a 2-turn war.

This is strange... I cannot seem to find any Russian combat units around. Make that ground combat units. I do find a destroyer to sink.

Scroll through our new holdings, putting Russian cities on a diet. Form a perimeter around Cologne, and hit the stupid button that finishes a turn.

IBT - A Russian Destroyer sinks one of ours in a last act of defiance. The French Navy heads towards the other continent, and a bunch of French tanks show up outside Krasnoyarsk. I just had a really evil thought... I could get a Military Alliance with France vs. Russia, let her kill the last city, and let her take the rep hit. Knowing my luck, she'd let the thing linger on. We get a palace expansion.

Time to finish this.

Turn 3 (1585)

I finish the Russians in a last Modern Armor Assault.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/05_Sgtotm2_scout_buh_bye_cathy.jpg

Dial up Tokugawa, and give him Ecology and 100g.
Same deal for Ghandi and Mao.
Throw in Iron and Rubber for Mao.
Throw in a couple of lux for Ghandi.

Fission to Ghandi
Fission to Mao

Nobody is Gracious anymore...

I hit the "go" button.

IBT - I start some Mass Transit systems. We get a palace expansion.

Turn 4 (1590)

Clean some pollution, disband some units, Sign RoP with the planet. Mao and Ghandi are now Gracious.

Tempted to give Tokugawa Synthetic Fibers... but if he trades it to China, and China trades it to France...

I hit the "GO" button.

IBT - Comptuters come in, set queue to... Stealth. Because I've never actually researched it. :p

We build a bunch of stuff, and get a palace expansion.

Turn 5 (1595)

Dangit. How long do I have to hold the UN?

Dial up the world and give 'em Computers. Except Mao. I take Silks in trade.

Tired of this, I just hit "GO".

IBT - China starts SETI

Turn 6 (1600)

I upgrade all of our Infantry to Mech in one fell swoop. Because I can.

IBT - a rather beat up version of the French navy comes home...

Turn 7 (1605)

MapStat tells me that there are still 3 recently captured Russian cities that still aren't too happy about having been recently captured...

Please, just let this pollution fest end..

I start SETI in Berlin, because I can.

Gift Mao some Ivory, clean some pollution, Press "GO".

IBT - we get some border expansions in our newly acquired Russian Holdings... DANGIT when will this UN vote come?!?!!?

Turn 8 (1610)

I'm just about ready to host WWIII...

Press "GO"

IBT - China and Japan sign a Military Alliance against France.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/06_Sgtotm2_scout_China_v_France.jpg

We build some more stuff, WLTKD celebrated in Cologne

This is stupid. A French (captured Japanese) town attempts to revolt.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/07_Sgtotm2_scout_stupid_revolt.jpg

No thanks, we got our oil, and I don't need any more stupid cities building stuff.

Turn 9 (1615)

I'm not gonna be happy if I get Stealth before the UN vote.

IBT - I'm really getting sick of watching French tanks patrol.

Turn 10 (1620) I'm going to give this until the 10th Anniversary of Capturing the UN, and then I'm going Spaceship...

IBT - :sleep:

Turn 11 (1625) Okay Mad-Bax, what do I have to pay you to end this madness?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/08_Sgtotm2_scout_retire.jpg

IBT - aside from the French destroyers returning home, our people want to build the Iron Works. Whoopee.

Finally! The Moment of Truth!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/09_Sgtotm2_scout_call_for_vote.jpg

Oh Noo! I fumble the move and vote for Joanie....

I'm guessing that's a joke. :D

Cologne's citizens all turned Russian because that's what happens when a city is given away, or even ceded in a peace treaty.

It's just a point of technique--I'm not suggesting you should actually have done this--but we could have reached Krasnoyarsk on the first turn of the war by positioning a settler between Vladivostok and the roaded jungle/spices tile outside Krasnoyarsk, abandoning Vladivostok, and founding a city with the settler, thus gaining control of the roaded tile.

Oh that would be cruel if I let you guys believe that into tomorrow...

...just kidding team.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/10_Sgtotm2_scout_vote.jpg

Watching the replay thing...good God this is taking longer than the UN vote...at least the war with Russia part went quickly...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/11_Sgtotm2_scout_we_win.jpg

Firaxis score is 4058

We are Bismark the not-too-shabby.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/12_Sgtotm2_scout_smushface.jpg

From the server:

Reference number: 367
Game: SGOTM 2
Your team: scout
Your name: scoutsout
Date submitted: 2004-07-06
Software Version: Civ 1.29f
Game date: 1630 AD
Player race: Germany
Firaxis score: 4058
Jason score: 6306
Time played: Not available
Game status: Diplomatic Victory for Germany
Submitted save: scout_SG002_AD1630_endgame.SAV
Renamed file: scout_SG002_AD1630_01.SAV

I believe this gives us the privilege of surfing the other teams' threads, and offereing congratulations where warranted. I am looking forward to surfing one particular thread...

And judging by the Jason scores, it appears we're in the hunt for at least one "award".

Blame it on poor leadership if we get the Wooden Spoon. That was the agreement we had at the start.

Seriously, this has been a heckuva lot of fun, guys. OOH! Speaking of fun... I almost forgot: > > The Pre-Slugfest Save < < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2_scout_pre_slugfest_1575_AD.SAV)

:hatsoff: :beer: [party] :banana: [party] :beer: :hatsoff:

A fine conclusion to a fine game.

I have no idea where we'll place relative to the other teams pursuing this variant, but we can be very satisfied with the daring and ingenuity of Mistfit's Cologne gambit, and with the accuracy of our play. :goodjob: :rockon: :goodjob:

Thanks to Scout for his work as team leader, and to Mad-bax and Karasu for their heroic service as moderators. [There'd be a "Thank you" smiley here, but it put me over the limit for images in a post.]

I just wish you would stop going away on trips and play the games from the beginning NP. You appear to have your priorities a little muddled IMO. ;)

Well done Scouts. :thumbsup:

I just wish you would stop going away on trips and play the games from the beginning NP. You appear to have your priorities a little muddled IMO. ;)Ahem. And where were YOU while we were all in mid-game, and Karasu was kind enough to bring NP into this game? Hmmm? Was it sunny and warm where you were, MB?

Edit: :p

Edit2: Crostposted with someone...OH! AlanH!

:lol: Dammit. Found out again

:beer: Fantastic!! :beer:

Well done, Scout and the rest of the team! :thumbsup:

How appropriate that it was Scout who got to finish everything off - our very own Great Leader ;)

Personally I think that even if we don't win, we deserve a pat on the back for neatness. Somehow, the gifting of Cologne, and all the subsequent set-up and then re-capture went eerily smoothly!! :wow:

And now for the (only semi-ironic) Awards Ceremony.

1. 'Most Devious Masterplan since the Trojan Horse' Award goes to...

[dance] MISTFIT!! [dance]

2. 'Most Noble and Uncomplaining Inheritance of a SoD' Award goes to...

[party] SCOUTSOUT!! [party]

3. The 'Scarlet Pimpernel Award for Most Sudden Disappearances' goes to...

:ninja: GENGIS KHAN!! :ninja: Hope you're well, mate!

4. The 'Wayne Rooney Award for Best Player from the Bench' Award goes to...

:beer: NORTHERN PIKE!! :beer:


Well done again, guys, I had a blast playing this game with you. I hope we meet up again in some future SGoTM :salute:

Tal

FWIW I think the masterplan could have been improved upon, cunning as it was.

If you had set up Cologne earlier and allowed them to pre-build another wonder in it, then you could have completed that wonder after gifting them fission allowing the cascade.

Could go a bit wrong though as the X team found out.

Neither idea is mine I hasten to add - though I'd love to take the credit.

Yes, a pre-build in Cologne would have been quicker, true...

But that's hindsight for you. I have been having a quick peek at the other threads by the way, and am astonished at how quickly some teams won the variant. 1415??? :wow:

Quite how they managed to get to the UN so fast, I don't know, and I haven't really the time to trawl through 30 pages of thread... I waste enough time trawling this one ;)

I guess we will all have to wave that wooden spoon (which we won by a MILE, by the way!) with pride!

Edit - if anyone likes the idea of continuing this team into SGoTM3, I'd be delighted to do so, I think the communication and fun aspects have been awesome!

I might suggest a change of team name to Team Spoon, though ;)

No offense, Scout :lol:

FWIW I think the masterplan could have been improved upon, cunning as it was.

If you had set up Cologne earlier and allowed them to pre-build another wonder in it, then you could have completed that wonder after gifting them fission allowing the cascade.

Could go a bit wrong though as the X team found out.

Neither idea is mine I hasten to add - though I'd love to take the credit.
The difference between 1415 and 1630 is more than a pre-build. That's 40 turns... several techs... if there had been any pre-builds available, we might have beaten Xteam, but I don't think we even had the tech in 1415.

I'm definitely going to have to see how those guys did it, because a 20-turn UN build on our doorstep was a decent tactical advantage.

Great job Scout! Nice turns. It's to bad we missed out on the green laurel but this was very fun. I'd do it again given chance.

Um... we were going after the gold one, Mistfit. :)

It looks like we finished a dozen turns behind Xteam, and I think they played a pretty strong game. It will be interesting to see how team Bugsy does. Their UN got completed a few turns earlier, but they have a continent to invade. Going strictly by turns-to-finish, we are probably going to be right in there with Bugsy, and both teams will probably be just behind Xteam. Team Bugsy won the Green in SGOTM1. Finishing close to those guys isn't anything to hang your head about.

But in short, team Peanut skunked us all pretty good on the fastest variant win. I have downloaded their thread, and will read it one evening this week to see how they did it.

I think there is only one other team still playing, and I think they're pursuing the variant.

And we are legitimately in the hunt for the Spoon. Not such a dubious honor, since we knew early on that our approach would either bring home the gold or the spoon.

green...gold I was close....

green...gold I was close....Don't feel bad, I was wrong too. There are 2 teams still playing...

Re: Peanut
I haven't read the thread yet but if it is 1/2 as funny as his write up in the spoiler thread it should be funny

I haven't read the thread yet but if it is 1/2 as funny as his write up in the spoiler thread it should be funnyI'm looking forward to that one. They clearly did something radically different...we were at least close to Xteam.

And by the way - the notion of gifting a city to the AI so they can build the UN for you will forever be known as "Mistfit's Gambit" in my book.

Thanks.

Has anyone heard from GK?
I hope he didn't pummle the guy that stole his stuff and get thrown in jail.

Edit I started to read the thread on the Xteam they seemed to be planning to war up to the point of domination and then stop and do the u.n. thing

Tallanas, as long as I'm not receiving the Wayne Rooney Award for looks, or for command of the English language, I'm delighted. :D He's never going to be David Beckham off the pitch, that lad.... :lol:

Regarding Team Peanut's quick variant win:

1. They got their FP built in 30 AD with a GL. The difference between the prospects of a civ which gets an early FP from a GL, and those of one which agonizingly hand-builds the thing, is almost impossible to overstate. Notwithstanding the factors below, if we'd completed our FP when they did we might have equalled their finish time.

2. Playing PtW, they got Fission as their free IA tech, and I believe Russia's free IA tech may have helped them too (though I emphasize that this isn't clear to me). In vanilla, neither of these things was ever going to happen for us. Moral: let's not play vanilla next time, please. Somewhat ironically, the gentleman for whose benefit you accepted this handicap wasn't able to finish the game.

3. They pulled off the freakish feat of winning a UN vote called by the AI (so full credit to you, Scout--it is possible). I don't know whether this makes their victory more or less meaningful (actually I do know, but it wouldn't be chivalrous to go into that ;)).

I admire the refinement of getting the client civ to pre-build the UN--but given the lack of late-IA Wonders, one would need an enormous tech lead to try this. I'm not sure we were ever that far ahead of the pack (the FP issue again, ultimately).

As Mad-bax has indirectly informed you all :lol:, I'm not in a position to play SGOTM3 from the beginning, due to travel over the next month. But I'd be pleased to see this team stay together, and I'd be glad to play in SGOTM4 with the rest of you, or possibly join SGOTM3 midway through. :king:

Scout, thanks for your useful summary of the other teams' games. I can't respond by PM because your box is full. :eek: Everything I have to say is in the above post anyway.

I just emptied my PM box, caught up on some PMs, and even as I type this a new one has arrived... (?)(!) This is nuts..

Thanks for that summary of team Peanut. I guess the chance of getting Fission for free is a slight edge...and the chance of getting different freebies from Russia at the dawn of the Middle and Industrial ages could also be used to shave a few turns off...

If there was a bonus for style points, I'm sure that "Mistfit's Gambit" would be worth a couple thousand Jason points. The way I figure it, we definitely whupped 'em all in style. :D

Sorry for the double-post... a couple of you guys talked about keeping team scout together...

Although I'm honored, I got a PM a little while ago from a guy I was in an SG in... he's with a pretty strong crew... guys I can learn a thing or ten from.

Please don't take this the wrong way - I thoroughly enjoyed playing this game with you guys, and would love to play another SGOTM with this "team scout".

I have no idea what Mad-Bax will do... this guy already suggested a 5-person roster, and I know MB broke one such team up a little in SGOTM1...

But if we don't play SGOTM3 together, maye we could re-constitute the team in another SGOTM, when NP could be with us from the start...

I don't know if the team is still tracking this thread or not... but it looks like we've sewn up the wooden spoon award. (Sorry Gengis). Blame it on poor leadership. (That was the agreement. :D )

In spite of the fact that we had the lowest Jason score, I think there are a couple of positives we can take from this:

In terms of speed, we were 3rd of 5 teams that declared the variant. We beat Team Bugsy by 5 turns, no small feat considering the strength of that team.

Though it's not really fair to say we played "better" than Team Bugsy, I do think it's fair to say we played a better game than one or two other teams that I won't name.

Bear in mind, the last Wooden Spoon team also played a variant, and played it insanely (OCC-AW). I suspect Wooden Spoon awards to variant teams will become a pattern...

Anyway, I really enjoyed this game guys. I just wanted to get one more note in now that the fat lady has sung...

Best regards :hatsoff:

Excellent news!!

I think there should be a hierarchy for the Wooden Spoon, after the model of the Honours List we do over here :)

At the bottom, the MWS (Member of the Wooden Spoon)

Then OWS (Officer of the Wooden Spoon)

Then CWS (Commander of the Wooden Spoon)

Every time you get the Spoon, you move up a rung... Only problem is that GK is at rung two already... We need some more promotions!

Tal

GK has two wooden spoons? :eek:

I might have trouble putting him in a team soon ;)

Hmm, let's see...

SGoTM1 - check!

SGoTM2 - check!

Yep, two Wooden Spoons :)

But we'll take him anyway!

I might have trouble putting him in a team soon ;)That might be a self-solving problem, as he hasn't been seen around these parts lately. :hmm:

With Bede, GK, Ankka, Andvruss, and Smellincoffee bieng the founding fathers of the Order of the Wooded Spoon. Team Scout is in some pretty good company IMHO.

Bede gets wooden spoon in one game and Green Laurel for highest Jason score in the next. :eek:

Like I said, We are in pretty cood company.

Bede gets wooden spoon in one game and Green Laurel for highest Jason score in the next. :eek:So let me see if I've got this straight...our "multiple award" winners are:

Kuningas: Gold(1), Green (2)
Bede: Spoon(1), Green (2)
Gengis Khan: Spoon(1), Spoon(2)
scoutsout: Gold(1), Spoon(2)

Edit: Anybody see a pattern with that first player? :hmm:

The only pattern I see is win, win, win, win, win some more!

Edit: Anybody see a pattern with that first player? :hmm:
Just lucky, I guess :rolleyes: Not!

There is no way we can let AlanH (king spam) heve the last words in our thread. Hehehe