SGOTM2 Game Thread

Welcome to your game thread for SGOTM2-Germany

Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2-start-position.jpg

Each team has their own save file. Please download and play from the correct save. If you use the wrong save the server will not accept your submission. Also, please make sure that the software version is correct. PM me immediately if it is not.

You can download your save file >>HERE<<. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php)

The Roster
Genghis Khan
gm1pooh
mrTweed
scoutsout
Tallanas

Go go Team Scout!

I assume scoutsout is our skipper, so will await turn orders from you... I should be available over the weekend plenty, so will have time to discuss the opening moves.


Tal

*edit* Having said that, I'm off to play cricket! Back in 8 hours when you Yanks will just be getting up :)

*edit 2* spelling - I'd just woken up!

hello team scout, it is a honour and a pleasure to be in a team for the sgotm2 and i am much looking foward to it, now has any1 given any thought to the task in hand with a monarch game we can start to tailor our game from the beginning for the victory condition we would like to meet. a modern age conquest victory with panzers would be cool as would the sponsored varient of the diplo victory as its so ungerman well unprussian anyhow, the start position is quite a strong one and can be tuned into 1 of 3 situations very quickly. 1) rush pottery-build 2 spearmen then a granary then 2 settlers, then a settler evry 4or 5 turns . 2) sprog a couple of settlers for expansion the get as many ancient age wonders as possible i reckon we could get 3 or 4. 3)sprog settlers then a big ole stack of archers and rush towards the nearest enemy.
anyway i look foward to discussing this over the coming month or so i do not mind in which order i play although im a pretty good opener. I will trust scout's judgement as team leader and be subservient .
ps.Tallanas who u calling a yank?! lols im a limey 2 just like u

Gengis reporting for duty, sir! :weneedasalutesmiley:

Our start is decent. The 2 BGs and the forest helps, but I have a feeling we're going to see alot of jungle to the south. And it looks like we have the ocean to the NW. I'd send the worker 1 tile east first before deciding whether to settle or not.

I'll await scout to check in before we start seriously getting into our plans for world domination.


Joy! Not one but 2 cricket playing, tea drinking islanders for me to make fun of! J/K guys.:D

Hello and welcome team! I am really looking forward to this game!

I apologize for the length and tone of this post, but before we get too much into strategizing and discussing the game, we should probably go over some "housekeeping items". I really hate to start things off on a serious note, but if we go through this one time up front, then hopefully we won't have to bring this stuff up again. Rules: :ack:

Mad-Bax posted some general SGOTM rules >> >Here< << (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1733966#post1733966). A lot of this has to do with administering the game.

One rule I'd like to touch on is the "24-72" rule. The idea here is that when someone finished their turns, the next player should post a "Got It" within 24 hours, and play their turns within 72 hours of the "got it". Since we have at least one college student in the game, I'd like to relax that to 36-72±. If you can't get to the thread every single day, try not to skip 2 whole days. This is important for playing and discussion. If you have a big exam coming in 3 days, that's fine. You can either request a skip or we can wait an extra day until you can play your turns. Just please don't go AWOL/MIA and make me auto-skip anybody.

Scout's Rule #1: Participate in discussion.
Scout's Rule #2: Regent level players must not withhold suggestions.

Even if a suggestion is not used, we can analyze it and learn from it. But I'm betting that somewhere along the line one of our "Regent Level Comrades" is going to offer a useful perspective, or catch something the rest of us missed.

More Rules: This game is to be played to Mad-Bax's interpretation of RBCiv rules. The "Spirit" of RBCiv rules is simple: If it feels like cheating, it probably is. Here is some good Background on RBCiv Rules (http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/erules.html), with a nice evaluation of tactics and exlpoits here (http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html), and a list of specifically disallowed exploits (http://realmsbeyond.net/civ/eexploits.html).

As I have gotten into GOTM and SGOTM in the last 2 months, I have learned much about what I call the "ethics" of Civ gameplay. Ironically, several War Academy articles explain in great detail how to use exploits that are disallowed in games like these. There are two specific differences between RBCiv rules and Game of the Month Rules (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/gen/rules2.shtml) that I'd like to point out: Palace Jumping and Ship Chaining. These are specifically allowed in GOTM, and disallowed under RBCiv (and here).

A more basic form of cheating: Reloading. There are specific circumstances when it's allowed (and one specific circumstance in which I will encourage it). If your game crashes, or if you "mis click" (meant to move the warrior NE, NE, N, and fumbled it to N, N) then you are probably okay to load from the last save. Be sure to duplicate your original moves as closely as possible, so as not to hose up the RNG.

One other valid reason for reloading: If any one of us gets to a critical juncture in the game (new tech discovered, big stack of AI troops show up, or maybe you're just not sure what to do next) you may save the game at that point, log on to this thread, and ask your teammates for advice.

The key here is not backing up to try to get a different result from one you've already gotten. If your archer dies in a battle, tough cookies, it's part of the game. Don't reload the game to re-fight the battle until the archer wins.

"Keeping Honest People Honest" - this month's SGOTM saves will be submitted through a similar process that GOTMs are submitted through. Now, I don't know everything that those GOTM staffers can do when they analyze a saved game, but I do know from one older public discussion that they can analyze "turns per session". If the "turns per session" in a Succession game is any number other than 10, they're going to know it, and wonder. So...

Scout's rule #3: If you play a set of turns any other way than ten in a row, note it in your turnlog.

"Spoiler Information": Spoilers are things that reveal information to you that you should not have at a given point in the game. At this point, we should not really know what's outside that settler's nine-tile radius, or where the iron/saltpeter/rubber are. This is a little tricky with this game, because this particular start is rather famous. Cracker analyzed it in his "Opening Moves" site, which is excellent stuff. Like Gengis, I remember jungles to the south... having said that, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if Mad-Bax tinkered with this map to de-value the spoiler information.

One related problem is that we can access other teams' sites. I can't prevent any of you from surfing another team's thread, but I can say this:

Scout's rule #4: If you gain access to spoiler information, particularly about other teams' games, don't post it here. I'd rather not even discuss other teams' scores and progress here. Let's just focus on our game.

Again, I apologize for the length and tone of this post. Hopefully that'll be the last of my "pompous team leader stuff'. :king:

Now let's have some fun! :hammer:

Major Edit: Just received a polite PM reminding me of a rule change from SGOTM1. We are prohibited from surfing other teams' threads. And I think they can track this with the new forum upgrade...

And now, for something totally different...

What are the team's thoughts on the variant? Do we want to give it a shot? :D

well all your rules seem fine scout, and il abide by them as for the variant i vote no who wants diplomacy when u got panzers. and as for genghis i do drink and like tea yes but i cant stand cricket its ffing boring nearly as bad as baseball but not quite. :)

i cant stand cricket its ffing boring :)

*splutter*

I think you just made yourself an honourary Yank...

Anyway! Back to Civ. First up, I have no problem with playing by the rules, and in fact, I had never heard of or even imagined most of those exploits. So, I have no problem with playing fair. Aggressive, i think is ok, if we want, since we are playing Germany - when the AI plays Germany, they are a "nightmare neighbour" so I see no problem with us wanting to see our Panzers parading through the streets of foreign capitals :)

Second, I thank you for encouraging us to participate in discussions, Scout. So here come my thoughts!

1) The site looks pretty decent - 2 BG, river for size 6+, some forests for quick shields via lumberjacking... And gold maybe, if we need some quick corruption free cash or knowledge. So, we could just plonk ourselves down straight away.

2) Siting the city immediately might tell us where we should improve first with the worker... It looks like there might be a lot of work, so each turn might be very valuable - no wasting settler moves running all over. That said, I think GK's idea of moving the settler [Bah - I meant worker - Ed] one East, then mining/roading is a strategy that can't miss.

3) I looked at Cracker's article a while ago, but I can only remember the theory, not the specifics. However, that jungle to the southeast looks ominous, as do the forested hills and mountains to the northeast. Are we being forced west? I would like to know if that's a coast or a lake! It's a shame some of the early legends of our Germanic people don't refer to the "Endless Sea" or "Lake Miniscule" :)

4) Other than that, I'd like to see some early scouting units getting up on those mountains to give us a look around - I want most of all to know where this river we are on starts and finishes. It would be nice to get a few more city sites with fresh water.


Ok, so none of that was revolutionary! But it's a start, I hope!


A question for you guys, which I think is important. Play-styles.

Are you aggressive warmongers who never build wonders, or are you more like me, going for a balance of military/culture/science/Wonders?

The reason I ask is that we should all try to play with a TEAM playstyle. There is nothing to be gained by having a government with a multiple personality issue!

Looking forward to this more and more!


Tal

Sorry for double post!

Re variant... Hmm... I'm dubious. A diplomatic victory without the UN? I'm not sure I understand... :confused: However, if one of you can explain to me, then if it sounds like the team as a whole would benefit, then fine.

But if the new guys to succession games would benefit more from a more normal game, it's probably wiser to do that. Two or three of us are new to this (SGOTM), so maybe we don't want to try to run before we can walk. Actually, it might be like trying to triple jump before we can walk :eek:

Tal

Triple post :)

Subscribing to the thread...

@ Tallanas: Lots of good stuff in your posts. One little thing - I believe GK was talking about moving the worker, not the settler. This is a common technique used by stronger players. Move the worker to the tile you think you'll want him to improve first, and see if he sees something that warrants moving the settler...

@ Gengis: correct me if I'm 'putting words in your mouth'

On the warmonger v. wonder thing - I generally find the early game a lot easier without building wonders. Even in builder mode, you'd be surprised how much science (and culture) you can generate by building "Library" instead of "Great Library".

I'm not opposed to building an ancient age wonder, but I'd want a good reason to do so. I think the most under-rated ancient wonders are Colossus and the Great Lighthouse, the most over-rated are the Great Library and the Pyramids.

On the variant - I don't think it will be harder than playing the game straight. This particular variant will come into play so late in the game that the whole team will be ready for it (if we go that route).

I will say this - I think those who think the U.N. must be captured in order to win the variant are mistaken. There are ways to guarantee your civ is a candidate when the vote is called, and ways to all but guarantee a win.

I'll go you one better - I think it's entirely possible to win the variant version of this game without ever firing a shot in anger with the Panzers.

Just checking in so ya'll know I am still alive.
I've studied Cracker's moves way too much, but I still think that we can work on this start ( even though I like the NW :) )
Anyway, good to talk w/ all of ya'll, and if any of the European folk are coming down for the big football extravaganza let me know.
I promise a better strategy posting tomorrow after the wonderful Alentejo wine this evening has worn off a little :)

And just a quick thing...
qm1 means "QuarterMaster First Class, USN." For citizens of the United Kingdom, you might know me as " Petty Officer." I know, it might seem a little out of bounds, but when Mad-Bax referred to me as gm1 ( Gunner's Mate), I said to myself, "that's what you get for being one of the smallest ratings in the Navy!"
If you are into the whole brevity thing, Q is fine.

@ Tallanas: Lots of good stuff in your posts. One little thing - I believe GK was talking about moving the worker, not the settler. This is a common technique used by stronger players. Move the worker to the tile you think you'll want him to improve first, and see if he sees something that warrants moving the settler...



My bad! Said settler, meant worker... It was late when I posted that :)

And Q, apologies for getting your handle wrong in the other thread - we're all at it! I just mistook the small letter q for a g... Rest assured, we shall all now call you Q - or Mr Q if we are being polite :D

Re variant - well, if you think it will be interesting, then I am happy to go for it, as long as we are all clear on the types of diplomatic behaviour we will need to adhere to throughout the game so that we have the best chance of schmoozing our way to the top late on.

Tal

<snip>as long as we are all clear on the types of diplomatic behaviour we will need to adhere to throughout the game so that we have the best chance of schmoozing our way to the top late on.An excellent point. There are a lot of "little things" that are fun, but will bite you in the diplomatic arena. If we decide to pursue the variant, Gengis and I will work on a list of 'don'ts' to avoid problems when we reach that stage of the game.

The way I see it, we wouldn't play the game much differently until we hit the mid industrial ages. By that time, we should be pretty well in synch as a team; which is why I don't think the variant will be any 'harder'.

It sounds like it should be fun then.

And hopefully, we will still be able to have some early wars for leader generation - I doubt it will be at all possible to build any great wonders early without the help of a leader. I think you are right, Scout, about the valuable wonders. It is rarely that useful to get the Great Library, and the best thing about it is the high culture rating, not something that will particularly help in this game, unless culture has some secret effect on diplomacy that I don't know about...

Yep, ment the worker. He'll scout & go over to our best tile at the same time.

About the variant: I'm all for it if the team decides to go that way. The question then becomes are we just going for the variant, or are we going for the fastest diplo win possible & the gold laurel?

About my playstyle: I like to think of myself as walking that fine line between builder/warfare, everyone else tells me to stop kidding myself, I'm a warmonger through & through.

Any thoughts on initial research path or turn order?

[edit- And correct me if I'm wrong, but we're playing vanilla right?]

It'll have to be Vanilla for me, as I don't own PTW or C3C.

I agree with Scout on the possibility for the variant. I believe we should value the Scientific trait a little more than the Militaristic in this game, keep the research chugging along in a steady manner, and be the tech trading wizards of the world. That's good solid gameplay in any case, especially while we're working towards the IA.

Worker to the east first definitely. I would say beeline to pottery, then by that point hopefully our scouts will have popped techs from huts or gotten us contact for trade to go for a good second tier tech. If not, we could go for the Wheel, then try for HBR to trade around a bit.

For turn order, my weakness is definitely city placement, so I would probably enjoy having one of the better dotmappers before me for guidance. I'm ready to go whenever everyone else is.

...are we just going for the variant, or are we going for the fastest diplo win possible & the gold laurel?Now, what fun would it be if we didn't at least try for the gold? :mischief:

What we know: We've got 6 AI, and 3 continents. If we can kick 4 AI off the planet, consolidate 2 continents, and stay under the domination limit, then I say we do so. If we can cut things down to 2 AI and us by the industrial era, we can control this game. We would probably be better served by having an even number of AI in the game, so there are an odd number of UN votes at endgame.

My general thoughts: we play the early stages of the game in a rather staightforward, domineering style. We find out who is on our continent, and we kick them off. Get some 'suicide galleys' out and make contact ASAP.

Sometime in the industrial era, we shift gears, and let go of our desire to dominate the tech race. We don't want to empty their treasuries with any tech lead we might get. Trade them tech for tech, but one AI will likely be able to get that "one degree of separation" if we let them, and we will let them. We'll even give some techs away if we have to. (Gifting techs is the fastest and surest way to improve AI attitude...)

The idea is to get that AI (hopefully we'll get a Persia or Greece type civ left at endgame) and get them to Fission (and building UN) ASAP. If there are 2 civs left, and both start building UN, it becomes a simple matter to figure out which will complete the UN, and we just buddy-up to the other.
Any thoughts on initial research path or turn order?We should be prepared for only one AI on our starting landmass. I'm thinking Pottery>Iron>beeline to Map Making. But I'm open to suggestion, and this would change if we met 2 or 3 civs on our starting continent.

For order of play, right now these are my thoughts:

Gengis
Tallanas
mr Tweed
scoutsout
qm1pooh

I'm thinking our 2 Regent level guys might be more comfortable following you and me GK. I also think we should lead with our strongest player, and that'd be you. (I'm going to check to see if the lead player can start with 20 before we go to the standard 20-turn rotation...)

IIRC, 3 of our team signed up for 'either', and two said 'vanilla', so we're playing this in Vanilla.

What does the team think about all this?

...I would probably enjoy having one of the better dotmappers before me for guidance. I'm ready to go whenever everyone else is.I think we will be best served with a little between-turnset discussion between every set of turns for the first round or two of turns. Though I don't think this needs to turn into a Training Day Game, it will be good from the standpoint of "team building" and getting everybody "singing from the same sheet of music" as far as strategy goes...

I'm going to shut up for a bit and let some other teammates get a word in edgewise.. :D

One point. If we're going for the UN goal at the quickest possible date we'd have to start early towards that goal(and by early I mean from turn #1): not draining Civs treasuries, gifting away techs to Civs lagging a tech or two behind, and most of all keeping as many Civs still in the game & powerful as we can.

I think the GL would be very benificial with that goal: We can research the often neglected techs at full speed, while at the same time reaping the benifits from research of everyone else & gifting them to others.

Once we hit the Mid/late-Industrial period we can start lagging in our research, and put as much as possible into getting our Army & Navy up to date & massive in preperation for taking the UN. It'll be a tricky variant with us being so genorous the entire game, but it's very doable.

We should be prepared for only one AI on our starting landmass. I'm thinking Pottery>Iron>beeline to Map Making. But I'm open to suggestion, and this would change if we met 2 or 3 civs on our starting continent.


Why IW? I know we're quicker to it starting with Bronze, but if we haven't met our continental neighbor(s) by the time Pottery comes in we should look into moving towards a tech that the AI neglects. If we go for The Wheel, we could try for HBR early and use it to trade to at least Writing. Granted, if we get Alphabet early the point is moot and we go towards Mapmaking on our own.

Boy, this game should help snap me out of my Builder tendencies. I never even considered just thinning the herd before the vote. We would have to be careful of hitting the domination limit first, and it will be a little difficult keeping the AI from killing each other off in an order not to our advantage. But, I like the plan as Scout's laid it out so far. Of course, actual game development can spin us around a bit... :crazyeye:

@ Gengis - good point on the Great Library. Are you comfortable playing 20?

I guess among our settlement plan we should look at a few things:

- Whether or not our capitol is capable of becoming a settler factory
- If yes, then we find a nice site nearby to build the GL
- If no, then we look at building the GL in our capitol, and find a settler pump site nearby..

I think our second or third city will probably need to be the GL site, because we don't start with Masonry to use Pyramids as a GL pre-build....

We're going to need lots of units too - the barb setting is high in this game... I wouldn't expect many good things from the goody huts.

Sure thing, got it.

I expect us to fall behind in techs early, then catch up with the GL, then fall behind again after Education, but us sacrificing our personal research a bit will keep the pace blistering.

Well, since I guess we're going for a Great Library gambit my old Builder ways will be satisfied. I imagine the beeline is to Literature then?

I'm hoping we find a more suitable settler pump soon. The capitol site so far seems a bit shield rich, at least until some of those forests are chopped. I don't know, it feels like a unit farm to me.

If we are going for the Great Library, would an early archer rush/ warrior rush to try for a Great Leader be feasible? That, of course, depends on how close the nearest neighbor is.

@ "Q": An archer rush is a viable gambit at Monarch level, in general terms. I suspect our first few archers will have their hands full with barbs, but that could be beneficial for turning regular archers into elites...

As an aside, does "Quartermaster" in the Navy mean roughly the same thing it does in the Army? Can we count on you for a steady supply of "beans and bullets"? :D

Actually, a Navy QM specializes in navigation. As I like to say, it's all about "rocks and clocks": don't hit any land with the big gray thing and get there on time.

edited out sorry

Hi mr Tweed.

Please don't play a shadow game of the original and then use that information to spoil the game for your team mates. I am sure this is not your intention, I just wanted to make sure you were aware that the discussion of any prior knowledge of the map you have is not allowed.

Another thing to take into account is that this game is based on GOTM8. It isn't GOTM8. It's a little different :satan:

Therefore some of the information you have given may not be entirely accurate.

Have a look at The Draft Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61) when you get the opportunity.

what me (looks shocked) i said nufffin :)

T0 (4000)- Worker moves East, and spots a game on the river!
Found Berlin anyways, there’s wheat to our NW that will be in our border as well.
Looks like we’ll be able to get a nice factory in our capitol, start on pottery as fast as possible.


T1 (3950)- Worker starts on a mine. (The mine will save us a turn off our second warrior, plus that gold isn’t that important since we’ll probably get beaten to pottery anyways.)

T2-T5 (3900-3750)- Warrior produced, start on another.
Warrior heads north………… it’s a pond.

T6 (3700)- Scouting, a lot of plains to our west.

T7 (3650)- Our warrior spots our second city. Ivory ahoy!!
Worker finishes mine starts road.

T8 (3600)- :sleep:

T9 (3550)- Warrior produced, start on barracks for granary prebuild.

T10 (3500)- Capitol expands, bringing wheat and game into our borders. Spot spices to our south.
Turn research down to 60%. Netting us 2gpt, pottery in 3, with our barracks due in 4.
Worker finishes road, and goes to the game tile for a forest chop to speed up our granary.

T11 (3450)- Worker starts forest chop.

T12 (3400)- :sleep:

T13 (3350)- Learn Pottery, start on TW at max research.

T14 (3300)- :sleep:

T15 (2350)- More of the same, still having seen a barb or goody hut.
Spot some incense to the east.

T16 (3200)- :sleep:

T17 (3150)- Switch a citizen from the game to a forest tile to slow growth so we’ll get our granary a turn before growth.

T18 3100)- :sleep:

T19 (3050)- :sleep:

T20 (3000)- Still no other Civs, barbs or goody huts.

Forest will be chopped next turn, so we can irrigate the game.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/untitled2.JPG

@ Gengis - looks like quite the interesting start...thanks for getting us going! :thumbsup: I'll refrain from comment to see if you're going to post an "after action review", but don't forget - they're doing the savegame submissions differently this go-around. There's an upload page on the GOTM server (see link in Mad-Bax's first post...)

It's looking good! Three luxuries within spitting distance is always nice. I'll also wait for an after action report before commenting further, except to say " Excellent turns GK"

After turn report is coming up as soon as I figure out what I'm doing wrong when trying to upload a save.:confused:

Gengis: I put an extra h in your nick. I have corrected the database and the server will accept your submission now. :)

:lol: The curse of "Genghis being taken already" strikes again!

Alrighty, some notes for the next person & everyone to consider.

Forest Chop finishes next turn. Unfortunatly the 10 shields are going to be wasted, but that doesn't really matter because the quicker we get that game irrigated the better and by prebuilding the granary & slowing our growth for a couple turns we’re still getting the granary the turn before we grow. After the game I'd go straight to irrigating the wheat, that'll put us at 4 fpt but that's the best we'll get in despot. A 5-turn factory isn't that bad, plus we can work some warriors in between builds for scouting.

I went with gm's suggestion on TW after pottery so we can research HBR, after that we’ll have hopefully met some people and can do some trading. I was initially thinking about doing a 40 turn IW gambit & trading for pottery, thank God I didn’t go with that one.

The south is anyone’s guess at this point but it looks like we have a lot of jungle to wade through. As of now I think unless we see a very good reason to, we should expand elsewhere first with terrain we can improve & save the jungle for later. After our granary completes I’d build a warrior to send out that way and scope it out.

Couple of quick questions. Is it "ethical" to look on the Spaceship screen and get the list of our opponents? Also, can I just download the save (not play forward) so I can get a better look at the situation? You know, getting older and older and eyesight getting lesser and lesser :lol:

Both are within the rules. Opening a save when it is not your turn is something I don't like however, since many people can resist everything except temptation. ;)

Thanks again, Gengis!

Order of go:

Genghis Khan: kicking back after kicking off
Tallanas - Up!
mrTweed - on deck
scoutsout - on the bench
qm1pooh - patiently waiting

@"Q" - it's okay to download the game and look at it without playing. Feel free to do a few screencaps or dotmaps if you have any suggestions.

@ Tallanas - feel free to post any questions you may have. It looks like Gengis has set Berlin up with an eye towards pumping a lot of setters there.

@ Team - though I doubt Tallanas will get a settler on his turns, where do you guys think our first couple of cities ought to go? And do we want to use RCP? (or do we know enough about the map yet?)

Wow, you guys have been busy posting :) Another day filled with cricket, beautiful sunshine, fresh air and a sneaky beer after the match... Life's hard.

Okay, back to the game. I like the look of the first 20 turns - good stuff Gengis.

It looks like the next set of turns (10 each from now on, right?) will be initial settler build for settling that ivory city, some worker tasks around Berlin, and more exploration...

Going with Scout's published order, I guess I'm up, right?

Tal

@ Team - though I doubt Tallanas will get a settler on his turns, where do you guys think our first couple of cities ought to go? And do we want to use RCP? (or do we know enough about the map yet?)

As I've said before, city placement is definitely not my strong suit ( I always try for OCP, but I understand that's not necessarily the best strategy). I will try to work up a dotmap, but it probably won't be before Tallanas's turns.

We should probably try to harness the power of RCP as we are playng vanilla w/ a non-commercial civ. Second city should get the ivory, third should probably also be in that direction, unless we have a neighbor lurking in the shadows.

Since everything is on the up and up, I did download the save. A couple of observations:

Our Opponents

Russia, England, France, Japan, China and India

Three of these civs start with Alphabet, 2 with Pottery (which we already have of course), 2 with Ceremonial Burial, 2 with Masonry, 1 each with Bronze Working and The Wheel. If Culturally linked starts is on we would expect to see Russia, England and/or France.

On The Map

The coast to the NW is fresh water, meaning a lake. So, there is probably a little more up there to see. The rainforest to the south and the Himalayas to the west do hem us in somewhat, but with enough workers we can change those factors for the better. The conveniently located floodplains to the NW of Berlin would make an excellent worker factory.

Just my two cents. Looking forward to everyone else's input.

My oh my, post overlap - all those were in quick succession, ignore my comments on asking if I was up next :)

Going with Scout's published order, I guess I'm up, right?That would be correct! :D You can either wait for a bit of discussion, or you can go ahead and play your 10. It looks like a litte bit of scouting and some worker turns are mostly what's in store for you at this stage. "Q" posted some good intel on who you might meet and what techs they're likely to have for trading...

Edit: and yes - it's ten each from this point forward.

Ok, it will be interesting to see if I see any other civs, as my trading skills need developing. I have a tendency to be too tight with the pursestrings, refusing costly offers and thus costing myself more in the long run...

Anyway, we shall see :)

I'd put off our first settler for a bit and get the population up. This will also let us get some more warriors in the field for scouting & MPs. Plus by the end of 10 we'll have alot more revealed and we'll be able to plan our cities better.

If we meet someone I think we should make getting Alphebet a priority, for a math gambit or to go for Lit for the GL. With the right pre-build we might be able to even do both.

OK, alphabet, warriors and terrain improvement. Check!

I have downloaded the save game, and am looking at starting now...

Pre-flight...

OK, Berlin checked out, and warriors given their likely scouting orders... Time to press "Enter"...


Turn 1 [2950]

Granary completed. Gamble with AI being smart, and place citizen working the wheat to ensure instant increase to size 3. Hope this does not shaft 2-turn warrior completion... :crossesfingers:

Warriors explore (ooh, look! sea!), worker starts irrigation.

Turn 2 [2900]

Hail, Comrade! A Russian warrior appears, from the south, just 5 squares from Berlin... They have Ivory, the Alphabet, and 10 gold in the bank... Until we get some more techs, there is no business to be done between us.

The AI was (of course) not smart, and chose the all-food square. MM Berlin to produce warrior in one turn...

Turn 3 [2850]

Governor Tallanas is lynched by rioting mobs in Berlin. His successor, also called Tallanas, has learned a valuable lesson in luxury rate adjustment... :blush: Sorry, guys...
More exploration.

Turn 4 [2800]

Warrior becomes MP, as without any luxury tax, TW arrives 3 turns sooner. Another warrior started in order to act as third scout. NE warrior discovers river basin that contains lush wheat-growing lands and floodplains.

Turn 5 [2750]

MM Berlin to produce warrior in one turn. Explore.

Decision taken to start the worker building a road on the game square.
Pros - more trade when it's used (which will be often); second or third city to be founded on the new wheat/river basin, to which this road will lead. Won't lose as many turns of worker activity.
Cons - Worker delayed from irrigating wheat.
Verdict - went with gut feel, build the road.

Turn 6 [2700]

Warrior built. Finances looking iffy. Set Berlin to grow in one turn, new warrior stays to maintain order for now. Tax rate set to 10%, TW arrives in 6, we only lose 1 gold per turn. Set build order to Settler.

Turn 7 [2650]

Settler to arrive in 4, Berlin to grow in 4... More exploration...

Turn 8 [2630]

Road finished. Extra tax hurries TW production. Governor feels better.
Note - the Russians have been very good about staying off German soil. I am suddenly suspicious so I contact their diplomat. He is smug, having just received Masonry and Ceremonial Burial, and having the princely sum of 49 gold in the coffers. We have 9 and are down 3 techs now. Bring on the Wheel...

Turn 9 [2590]

Southern scout sees border to Russian territory... Worker moves to wheat.

Turn 10 [2550]

Worker starts to irrigate. Everything set to kick off next turn - Settler produced, Berlin to expand, and the Wheel to arrive.

Tal vows that if he hears "Our Treasury is running dangerously low" once more, he will personally tie his treasury staff to one of these new-fangled wheels, and roll them all the way to Moscow.

Save game, and breathe sigh of relief that I only made one cock up.

Ok, I wrote that in detail in order to give you as much info as possible about what I was thinking. Feel free to give me pointers, and to slap me for my disobedient citizens.

Here is a screen shot - I have put yellow circles over two sites i *believe* to be suitable for RCP, if I understand it right. Again, feel free to set me straight.

I know that this isn't a trainer game, but I would appreciate some feedback from all my team mates, just for the sake of self improvement.

The save is now uploaded, by the way :)

Tal

Solid Turns Tallanas, it sounds like you're at a point where your learning curve is getting steeper. Don't sweat the riot, you reacted well to it, it's one of those things that you have to adjust to as you work up the levels. RE: building a road - when in doubt, building a road is a good thing to do with worker turns.

I'd like it if we all took a day to look things over and think about things a bit. Tallanas has got things set up for a settler next turn, so we should probably think about where we want the next city. I'd also like us to think about using RCP, even if we decide not to.

On research - once we get the Wheel in hand, we could probably try to trade for Alphabet and pursue Writing at 10%. Thoughts? Comments? (Gengis?)

Genghis Khan - patiently waiting
Tallanas - improving his game and improving terrain
mrTweed - Up, but let's wait a day for a little discussion/strategizing.
scoutsout - on deck
qm1pooh - warming the bench

@ Tallanas - I forgot to mention that I saw some things I liked in your micromanagement. I especially like the way you've got things set in Berlin to make a settler and grow on the same turn. :thumbsup:

On the rioting - Gengis passed along a link to some "enhanced smileys" that make it much easier to check the city happiness from the F1 screen. I'm not a huge fan of modding my game up, but there are 2 graphics mods I do use, and that's one of 'em. (Corn's borders is the other...and is less important)

@ Gengis: would you please post a link to those smileys? I must have deleted the PM you sent me with that link, and I forgot what they're called...

@ Tallanas - I forgot to mention that I saw some things I liked in your micromanagement. I especially like the way you've got things set in Berlin to make a settler and grow on the same turn. :thumbsup:

On the rioting - Gengis passed along a link to some "enhanced smileys" that make it much easier to check the city happiness from the F1 screen. I'm not a huge fan of modding my game up, but there are 2 graphics mods I do use, and that's one of 'em. (Corn's borders is the other...and is less important)

@ Gengis: would you please post a link to those smileys? I must have deleted the PM you sent me with that link, and I forgot what they're called...

Sounds helpful :)

As for strategizing and discussing, here are some thoughts. I would suggest the settler follow the road towards the wheat - it's a nice city square, and he can get there quicker. Also, with berlin shrinking again, the need for the ivory is alleviated a little.

Thoughts on RCP... Slight unease since it would be the first time I used it, BUT I would like to see it in action, so I would happily vote for it. Funnily enough, it would go against my "inner governor" since I like OCP myself. Overlap is the devil's work, but I understand the best Civvers use it, at times at least, so I think i should get familiar with it...

Tal

@Tal: Don't confuse RCP as an anti-OCP tactic. RCP ("Ring City Placement") involves placing cities in "rings" a certain distance from the capitol. The effect (in CivIII and PTW) is reduced corruption. You can still have cities with little overlap using RCP, just use a larger distance (RCP5 instead of 4, for example).

Having said all that, I think you will find that the "best CIVers" use tighter city placement for a more basic reason - using as many available tiles as possible, as soon as possible. Using OCP, you are "wasting" fewer tiles through overlap. The counter-argument is that since your cities can't grow past size 12 until the industrial era, you're "wasting" half your tiles for half the game because you don't have enough citizens to work all the tiles in a city's radius.

I used to play OCP a lot. I'm fond of the industrial era, and all the toys it brings. OCP really kicks in during the industrial era. But it is tough to make OCP work at levels beyond Monarch - and that's why the "best CIVers" are fond of tighter city placement - they're playing Emperor level or higher.

I'm not saying playing OCP at upper levels can't be done (RBCiv Epic 40 had a "zero-overlap" variant at emperor level) but the Ancient and Middle Ages are much easier with somewhat tighter city spacing, IMO. (I'm not a fan of ICS either...)

I'll post a dotmap later showing what RCP 3 or 4 might look like on this map.

OK, I take your point there about OCP vs RCp and their not being mutually exclusive... And I see what you mean about the overlap issue and pre-hospital tile usage. I guess I am just too neat for my own good.

Having thought more about it, I would vote yes for RCP if the map looks like it supports it (my initial analysis seems to suggest it would) - anything to cut down on corruption, since we are going to need cash and science aplenty...


Tal - learning all the time :)

All I can add(since you asked for suggestions), is that you should have irrigated the game before roading it. I see where you were coming from with our treasury fast depleating, but growth is by far the most important thing right now. Those turns saved growing will more then make up for the 1 extra gpt.

Riots happen, don't sweat it.

As far as research goes, that's a tough one. I doubt we'll be able to pull a 40 turn gambit on either Writing or IW, and the best chance for a gambit we have Math we need Masonry for. I'd go 40 turn gambit on HBR, using TW to trade for Alph(so we can still see when someone pulls in Writing). Our gambit might pan out, probably won't though but at least we'll put some gold in our treasury for trading. Lit isn't that much of a priority right now, since with a decent pre-build, we can then trade for it when we get close. With how things are looking I think MapMaking will become THE priority tech, so we can pump out some suicide galleys & start meeting people.

As far as city placement goes I think we should go with the Western site first, those mountain/hills will be a pain to road through to get the eastern one connected first.
As an alternate site we could settle 1 tile SW of the ivory, it will still be on RCP 5, will have an ivory, but it will also have a floodplain(or maybe 2). The drawback is that it will need an aqueduct down the road, but we can turn it into a worker pump for now so that won't be a problem.

All I can add(since you asked for suggestions), is that you should have irrigated the game before roading it. I see where you were coming from with our treasury fast depleating, but growth is by far the most important thing right now. Those turns saved growing will more then make up for the 1 extra gpt.

Do you mean I should have irrigated the wheat before roading the game? The game was already done... If so, then, yeah, I can see both sides of that one! Tough call, but fortunately, not a huge deal.

With how things are looking I think MapMaking will become THE priority tech, so we can pump out some suicide galleys & start meeting people.

That may very well be true. Looks like we do the 40 turn gambit on HBR and pray!

As far as city placement goes I think we should go with the Western site first, those mountain/hills will be a pain to road through to get the eastern one connected first.
As an alternate site we could settle 1 tile SW of the ivory, it will still be on RCP 5, will have an ivory, but it will also have a floodplain(or maybe 2). The drawback is that it will need an aqueduct down the road, but we can turn it into a worker pump for now so that won't be a problem.

I think we need a dotmap discussion... Both sites are nice, but you are right that roading towards the west is easier. Also, the worker is already over that way...

Tal

@Tal- Nice set of turns. I also thought your MM'ing was great.

So many things to say.... I think the HBR gambit might be our best bet. Russia could have gotten all those techs from huts, but I would suspect that our other neighbors are south of them. One of the other Alphabet civs (England, France or India, whoever's down there) will probably take the road to Writing, while Russia is likely to go for IW. We trade around HBR after making some more money, and we should be ok.

I think the Settler should go to the NW, just because it will be easier to link to at first. I am also not that good with counting RCP, but I think that the spot to the east with the wheat and the spot Gengis mentioned are at RCP 5. The ivory spot could be set up as a nice worker factory with those floodplains.

The one thing I am a little leery of right now is the lack of troops. We do have a high barb setting, so I don't know how wise a true Farmer's Gambit would be. We also have a lot more of the continent to explore, and with Russia as close as she is we might have to run blocks on the spices or the incense. I say we should let Berlin build up some population before another settler, and just keep building warriors. That will also allow some worker turns to develop the capital a bit more.

I'll try to work up a dotmap for discussion.

@ Q - a dotmap would be appreciated. I'll probably post one this evening myself.

I think the next 30 turns or so will be important ones.. having said that...

@ Tweed - are you still with us? Since the next 10 turns are yours - we need your thoughts and input too! :)

Hopefully we can have some decent discussion today/tonight, and Tweed can pick it up tomorrow and move us along. I expect we'll pick up the pace a little once our strategy comes together.

hell yeah im still ere sorry if i seem a little vacant im at uni and also have a job so balancing them plus civ and cs can be a little troublesome but dont worry ill come here to our thread evry day if i can. the first settler coming out i was going to place in 5 tiles due ne from berlin, i believe genghis mentioned this site, well with 2 ivory+ 4 floodplain +gold montains = excellent placement site. nice job with the turns so far tallanas ( btw u do know that caesers first name was gaius , im afraid im ignorant to a tallanas), after this im sure i could chug out another settler in the next 5 or 6 turns, link up berlin and leipzig after i founded it,and link the ivory and start the first 10 turns of hbr on min. other good sites are due north, to catch the 2 gold mountains and 2 bonusgrasslands( a good wonder prebuild site), sw to get the spices and b grassland (good barracks unit site) and dueeast in between the incense and wheat(multipurpose site).

sorry if the above is a little garbled i aint slept since saturady or was it friday..

also btw for all the admins regarding the save.... Got It

sorry if the above is a little garbled i aint slept since saturady or was it friday..Well...why don't you get some sleep before playing your turns then ;) We need you to have your "game face" on... don't worry we won't skip you - the game can wait. :D

nice 1 anyhow ill sleep this eve and play the turns and post b4 uni tomoz so i wont keep any1 waiting, my thanks for yer understanding and patience.

. nice job with the turns so far tallanas ( btw u do know that caesers first name was gaius , im afraid im ignorant to a tallanas)

Off-topic for a sec :)

Yep, I know all about Caesar. In fact, I know about many of the Caesars (I have a Master's in Ancient History ;) )

Just to explain - Tallanas is a character from a novel, and my board name of choice, and the quote in my sig is a parody of Caesar's supposed "Veni, vidi, vici" comment. So don't worry, there wasn't really a Tallanas Caesar, just a silly remark in a board sig!

As for the dotmaps - how about we get one that just shows all the RCP5 city sites - I think it looks fairly good, and the land mass seems large enough to get a full ring in. Maybe another at 9 and we are looking good. No, not good - excellent :)


Tal

I think this is right for RCP5... what do you all think?

@ Tal- You beat me posting the exact same ring diagram by two minutes! All my sorry Photoshop work down the drain ;)

I agree that's all the RCP 5 sites not on mountains. I think if we went with RCP 5 and 9 we would have a powerhouse later. Hopefully we can get there before the other civs try to get us.

@Tal: most of those look like RCP5 sites... the one 2N of the gold hill looks off, but without the gridlines it's a little hard for me to tell.

I'll post one this evening at RCP4 for the team to compare. I'm not dogmatic about RCP4, but a tighter inner ring might be easier to get everything connected, and allow us to use more of our terrain earlier.

Oh yea, almost forgot......... Those mood badges can be found here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10197). Those only work for Civ/PTW though.

Tallanas: My apologies, I guess I misread your post. I thought you roaded the game before irrigating it.

Oh yea, almost forgot......... Those mood badges can be found here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10197). Those only work for Civ/PTW though.

Tallanas: My apologies, I guess I misread your post. I thought you roaded the game before irrigating it.

Thanks for the link - makes things a little easier to spot - no more rioting, I hope!

And don't worry about the misunderstanding - reading turn logs without playing along with them is confusing as hell :confused:

Now I'm looking forward to seeing what Mr Tweed can come up with...

Tal

@Tal: Nice dotmap :thumbsup:

Since I already prepared mine, I'm going to post it, with these questions:

1) How many luxuries are claimed with the 7 cities I've laid out?
2) How many of these 7 cities will require aqueducts to grow?
3) How many of these cities have at least 1 non-jungle tile to work while our workers hack away at the jungle?

Note that I'm focusing on nine-tile city radii, because we pay full price for temples; our first cultural improvements in these cities will likely be libraries, and it will be a while before we build those...

1) Initially one ivory, one spices, but two ivory eventually after the NW city grows to 21 tiles...

2) Only 3 out of 7 will need aqueducts...

3) Here's the problem - 3 of those city sites are initially terrible. The bottom two: on the left, there is one BG, then jungle and mountain; on the right, there is just spices *in* jungle... And the one East of berlin has only got the game overlap as a decent square, but I see Berlin using that all the time... Anyway, in answer to your question, all bar two. Well, arguably, all bar one :)

By the way, is it ok to have both RCP4 and RCP4.5 cities?

Another question - how do you shrink down images before posting them? I would rather my monster images were a little easier on the formatting of this thread :)

Tal

Hehe, this is damn confusing! At least it illustrates why dotmaps are a good idea for an RCP plan :crazyeye:

*edit* Hmm, my text did not come out that well... save the image, then use the zoom within paint to see it more clearly... But to spell it out even more, the red units are diagonal, therefore costing 1.5 each, and the green units are orthogonal, therefore costing one each...

Another question - how do you shrink down images before posting them? I would rather my monster images were a little easier on the formatting of this thread :)

Tal

Here is a utility which may interest you.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1648052&postcount=17

Here is a utility which may interest you.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1648052&postcount=17

Thank you! Downloaded and looking good...

Tal

Double post, again... Anyway, one final dotmap, then I'm hanging up my MSPaintbrush :)

Yellow dots are RCP5, red dots are RCP4.

What's frustrating about this map is that what's best in one direction is not so hot in others :help:

For instance, to the NW, towards the ivory, the two yellow sites are very powerful, and easily linked - both have fresh water, and they waste little land through overlap. Having said that, the single red site there by the ivory would be a powerhouse once expanded to 21 tiles.

But to the NE, and the wheat by the river, the yellow dot is best - it's on the river for a start, and can use the wheat square immediately. Once expanded, the BG and hills make a nice rounded city. In comparison, the two red sites are weaker.

But the 3 yellow sites south of Berlin stink, pretty much. Surrounded by jungle and mountains, only one of the 3 is on a river... further away from Berlin, so more work to do to improve them... Bah!

Ok, over to you guys, I'm going to let you guys get your thoughts in now :)

10 turns from tweed.
turn 0 2550 bc, micromanage reserach for extra gold.
turn 1- 2510 bc, 1st settler built, horseback riding started at min research, got the wheel no horses nearby, made contact with the tzaress of russia and i traded wheel for ceremonial burial +14 gold, stated to build 2nd settler in berlin.
turn 2-2470 bc, moved settler+warrior nw towards ivory, micromanaged shield/food to reduce settler build time while optimizing growth.
turn 3-2430 bc, move warriors.
turn 4-2390 bc, worker finishes wheat irrigation and start wheat road, mm shields to get the settler 1 extra turn.berlin grows to size 4 use lux slider tp prevent anarchy.
turn 5-2350 bc, move units.
turn 6-2310 bc, Leipzig founded, set up queue to produce a temple,woker,barracks,archers. 2nd settler made, heading north.move worker s/e.
turn 7-2270 bc, woker builds road on bonus grassland nxt to berlin.
turn 8-2230 bc, hamburg founded,set to build temple, barbarian hordes attack leipzig our warrior nearly dies but gets promoted instead hussar!
turn 9-2190 bc, belin builds warrior send him east along montain ridge to scout out stuff.
turn 10-2150 bc, move units. berlin to size 4 nxt turn 3rd settler in 4 turns, 3 cityies sofar.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/scout_SG002_BC2150_01.SAV
link to nxt sav.

By the way, is it ok to have both RCP4 and RCP4.5 cities?
RCP x.5 is rounded down. An RCP "4.5" is a 4, a 5.5 is a 5, etc.
Another question - how do you shrink down images before posting them? I would rather my monster images were a little easier on the formatting of this thread :)
That utility that Mad-Bax pointed out is a new one on me. I have been using the "Z" zoom feature in the game to simply zoom out before taking a screencap...
Double post, again... Anyway, one final dotmap, then I'm hanging up my MSPaintbrush :)Hmmm... back to this in a bit...
What's frustrating about this map is that what's best in one direction is not so hot in others :help:This is a tricky map to analyze, and harnessing the power of the terrain will be tough with a non-industrious civ. We need a worker factory...
But to the NE, and the wheat by the river, the yellow dot is best - it's on the river for a start, and can use the wheat square immediately. Once expanded, the BG and hills make a nice rounded city. In comparison, the two red sites are weaker.

@ Tal - if you have time - would you mind doing a dotmap with the gridlines at RCP5? Gengis PMd me yesterday, and I know for a fact that he wants us to consider RCP5...

If you can, do the little 9 tile squares around the potential city sites. I find that helps visualize how many cities you can get in a ring and what terrain those cities will have immediately...

This is a tricky map to analyze, and harnessing the power of the terrain will be tough with a non-industrious civ. We need a worker factory...

@ Tal - if you have time - would you mind doing a dotmap with the gridlines at RCP5? Gengis PMd me yesterday, and I know for a fact that he wants us to consider RCP5...

If you can, do the little 9 tile squares around the potential city sites. I find that helps visualize how many cities you can get in a ring and what terrain those cities will have immediately...

Ok, will do this later this afternoon, and yes, I agree about the worker factory - it's goig to be vital...

Tal

@mrTweed: we must have cross-posted when you posted your turnlog. Could you please post a screenshot so the rest of us can see what our world looks like?

hey i know its a noob question but i aint got a clue about how to get a screenshot whilst in game, also all of my resource icons r a little screwy, ive got ivory coming out as uranium and spices as aluminium, only the icons are changed so when i say build a road to the ivory it registers as ivory but looks like uranium. nevermind bout the icons anyhow, just a little help on screenshot taking would be appreciated.

Assuming you're in Windows, you can hit the <Print Screen> button to do a screen capture. You can then open up an image editor and hit <Edit> <Paste> and it will paste the screenshot into the image editor. The image editor that Mad-Bax provided a link to is freeware, if you need an image editor. (Or you can use MS Paint...)

Edit: Cross-posted with Tal

Hit Print screen, then paste into Paint or some other editor...

Tal

Initial thoughts - with one RCP5 city, and one RCP4 - what is the way forward from here?

ok ive got the pic and wprked out how to upload it but i c theres no need now howeverm, and to tal the whole idea on rcp is 2 reduse corruption across the board, the differnece in corruption between a pcp5 city and an rcp4 city in miniscule een less with a courthouse and less again with a police staion, if we keep the inital ring all between rcp4 and rcp5 im sure we wont be able to spot the difference.

Well, I get home from work and things sure have changed a bit :)

I'm thinking Hamburg is actually at RCP3, so that strategy will have to change a bit. Hamburg will also need a lot of work to get some food so it will grow.

The barbs are out, so maybe some units are in order. I guess we just settle some of the better looking places on the map, but I would like to let Berlin's population grow a bit before another settler.

Sorry for the triple post, just posting that map Scout asked for...

I have done each city site a different colour so we can talk about them easily.

The sites I would think best are done in individual colours - other valid RCP5 sites are in light blue. Note that some of the sites are RCP5.5 but until Scout told me about the rounding issue, I did not know that was allowed. So thanks, Scout :)

I would have recommended founding them in the following order - RED, GREEN, YELLOW, PURPLE, ORANGE/WHITE, PINK.

This would be partly based on land value, partly on land grab issues with Russia...

Anyway, now that we have two cities on none of those sites, feel free to take this map with a pinch of salt ;)

Tal

@ Tal- Those are all good looking sites, and the build order towards the better lands is solid.

One observation- we are a long way from the coast to get some galleys out. Will the corruption out there effect us much?

ok ive got the pic and wprked out how to upload it but i c theres no need now howeverm, and to tal the whole idea on rcp is 2 reduse corruption across the board, the differnece in corruption between a pcp5 city and an rcp4 city in miniscule een less with a courthouse and less again with a police staion, if we keep the inital ring all between rcp4 and rcp5 im sure we wont be able to spot the difference.

Unfortunatly, that's not how RCP works. RCP uses the fact that all cities of the same distance away from the capitol get the same (low) rank corruption. Since we now have a city thats 4 tiles away(rank 1), all our cities that are built at five will get rank 2(that's if we don't build any more 4 tile cities). That can be the difference in 10 or so corrupted sheilds per turn short term, and alot more then that once we get cities above size 6.

I only see 2 options: Throw RCP out the window, or raze the city.

Since we now have a city thats 4 tiles away(rank 1)

Now I'm a little confused. I count Hamburg 2 tiles diagonal and 1 tile oblique from Berlin for RCP 3.5. Would that not round down to RCP 3 :confused:

You're correct, I was looking at the dotmap all squinty eyed.

So, I guess the question is what to do with Hamburg. Even with a temple it will only have 1 grassland in its radius, and a total of 2 grasslands and 3 plains after forestry operations.

Wow! It's not often that a discussion runs away from me! This is great!

@ Tal: Thanks for the dotmap work - that looks good. Consider this: Take your "yellow" site, and move it S-SW. I think that's still an RCP5 site...and it wouldn't crowd Leipzig quite so badly. I could be wrong, but I think Tweed put that city there because Gengis liked that spot.

@"Q": good question on Hamburg. Unfortunately, it would need a lot of worker turns to get it past size 3.

@Tweed: from some of the confusion among others surrounding the RCP calculations, I should have done a better job of discussing RCP. If I had done that, you might have put Hamburg a tile to the north. My fault/"poor leadership".

My take on Hamburg, lets pump it for warriors for a while. It should produce a warrior every other turn or so when it hits size 2...

I'll post some other thoughts later. My turns are next, but I'll probably wait for plenty of discussion before playing them... so everybody will have a reasonable idea what to expect when I'm done.

I was also considering moving the Yellow S-SW, but we still have it crowded by the red.

Something else we could consider trying(just to warn you this is definitly unorthadox) we can found the red, green, purple, yellow in that order. Pump out workers from Leipzig. Since all the tiles we'll be improving there will be used by the red/yellow, once we have a good chunk of workers in the field we can abandon the city, making more room for those 2.

This has us throwing away 2 settlers, but will balance out short term gain(lots of workers) with long term(more room for our cities).

I don't really see any alternative to pumping warriors out of Hamburg & abandoning it when we're ready to found the purple.

Something else we could consider trying(just to warn you this is definitly unorthadox) we can found the red, green, purple, yellow in that order. Pump out workers from Leipzig. Since all the tiles we'll be improving there will be used by the red/yellow, once we have a good chunk of workers in the field we can abandon the city, making more room for those 2.

This has us throwing away 2 settlers, but will balance out short term gain(lots of workers) with long term(more room for our cities).

I don't really see any alternative to pumping warriors out of Hamburg & abandoning it when we're ready to found the purple.

It's unorthodox, but we still get to harness the power of RCP later. Leipzig and Hamburg won't be for naught, as we'll still get workers and warriors in the interim.

Do we allow Berlin to grow into a settler factory, or just keep pumping them out and build the other cities?

Do we allow Berlin to grow into a settler factory, or just keep pumping them out and build the other cities?I think we need to let Berlin grow just a little. Settler factories tend to do a little better long-term when they're size 4 or 5 when they start building a settler. You can get a settler or two out faster sacrificing growth, but we're probably looking at another 15-20 settlers. This landmass looks pretty big, even if there are a lot of mountains that deny us sites.

I'd let it grow into a settler factory. If we keep pumping them out now they'll take longer, and we won't be able to do much with the cities.

However if we grow it a bit we can turn it into a 4 or 5 turn factory, right about the same time Leipzig comes online as a decent worker pump. That way our settlers can have worker support immediatly, and we'll get alot more cities(though not as quickly) in the long run.

We're going to need to start planning a military factory, and GL-prebuild city next. I'm thinking the red city for the factory, with some of those plains irrigated it can get to decent size & have roughly 5spt or so. I'm thinking the green will make a good pre-build city, it has the wheat & a BG for growth and plenty of forests around for production.

Opinions? Or am I looking to far ahead?

We're going to need to start planning a military factory, and GL-prebuild city next. I'm thinking the red city for the factory, with some of those plains irrigated it can get to decent size & have roughly 5spt or so. I'm thinking the green will make a good pre-build city, it has the wheat & a BG for growth and plenty of forests around for production.

Opinions? Or am I looking to far ahead?

Forward looking thinking is never out of style in Civ :)

Red city will also help with commerce once we get the ivory roaded. With the worker pump next door, it won't be too hard to get up to speed.

Green city is also a good idea, and with the river between it and Russia it will be easier to defend.

when i placed the citys i did have leipzig in mind fora worker factory and hamburh for the prebuild for gl. after hamburhg has expanded in 24 turns it will have 2 b grasslands + gold mountain + 2plains forest +grassforest. isnt this good enough for expansion/prebuild? i spse we could have hamburg expand then prebuild then once we have education we can disband it, or is this too much of a waste?? or is it 2 far ahead for the use needed from the rcp?

@ Tweed - thanks for posting your thoughts - it's easier to understand things when you know the 'why' behind the actions. I see your goal (a GL site) and now I see why you put hamburg there - lots of shields.

While Hamburg is a shield rich site, it lacks food. Since we're in despotism, we basically need to have a bonus floodplain tile to put a citizen on a mountain and keep a city growing. For every citizen on a mountain, you need 2 surplus food from the remaining squares in order to feed that one citizen. While the gold/mountain tile is powerful, we'll need to get out of despotism to be able to tap that power - since irrigated grass doesn't give any more food. The other tiles all produce shields, but only 1 food/tile. A forest chop will be needed just to get the thing past size 2. If we did follow through and build a temple there, followed by a wonder, any shields from the forest chop can't be used to build a wonder.

A quick digression for Tweed - when you posted that you were tired from work and school, I wish I had been a little more adamant about resting up and catching up on the discussion before playing. Maybe you didn't want to disappoint the team by delaying your turns, or maybe you're aware that in a lot of SGs they get really hard-core on slow play - but I'm not interested in counting the hours to an auto-skip.

Scout's rule for Scout: We're not going to auto-skip anybody on this team that is actively participating in the discussion.

On cultural expansions: The reason I draw the nine-tile city radius around a dot in a dotmap (as opposed to a 21 tile radius) is to force myself to look at what that city would get right away. Maybe that's a little short sighted, I don't know.

A quick digression: When I was "stuck at Regent", I was also "stuck on Egypt". I was convinced that the Religious and Industrious traits were the 'best'. And I used to build temples all over creation. In GOTM 31, I don't think I built more than about 6 or 8 temples. And the only reason I did that was to build cathedrals in some size 13+ cities that could benefit from cathedrals. (Implicit in this is that I didn't build many temples or cathedrals until the industrial age, after getting sanitation)

A note on Temples: We pay "full price" for temples. We might want to consider making our first 'cultural' improvements libraries, which are half price for us, and plowing our early shields into our other trait: Militaristic.

Having said that - When Hamburg reaches size 2, it might be a good place for building some archers. The barb settings on this game are supposed to be high, and having some archers early on might be a Good Thing.

I'm not ready to abandon Hamburg any time soon, but I don't want to invest anything in improvements if we should decide to abandon it eventually.

Leipzig, on the other hand, might be a long-term keeper...we'll figure it out.

A question:

I know we need to get some good cities up and running soon, but what do you all think about the spices south of Berlin? I would sure hate to see the Russians claim those, and they are right between Berlin and Moscow...

A question:

I know we need to get some good cities up and running soon, but what do you all think about the spices south of Berlin? I would sure hate to see the Russians claim those, and they are right between Berlin and Moscow...

I think we should probably try to run a block on the Russians until we have a settler to get down to the spices. We have a lot of other needs that need to be met with our first few settlers (pre-build, units). On the other hand, maybe Leipzig and Hamburg will provide enough until we get a settler down there? Hard to say.

@ Tweed- I also saw your thoughts on your moves. Don't worry about being too slow, I overanalyze everything so much my grandmother could play faster than I do :D Besides, there is a lot of good discussion on this team, and I definitely want to see more of your input.

Something else we could consider trying(just to warn you this is definitly unorthadox) we can found the red, green, purple, yellow in that order. Pump out workers from Leipzig. Since all the tiles we'll be improving there will be used by the red/yellow, once we have a good chunk of workers in the field we can abandon the city, making more room for those 2.

This has us throwing away 2 settlers, but will balance out short term gain(lots of workers) with long term(more room for our cities).

I don't really see any alternative to pumping warriors out of Hamburg & abandoning it when we're ready to found the purple.

I like these ideas very much. Certainly Hamburg can't stay if we have an RCP strategy, but it can be an excellent short term unit pump :) I would say that city improvements would be a waste here, though.

As for the red and yellow vs Leipzig... I like the idea of having those two cities, as it would take a colossal city on the current Leipzig site to work all the good squares around there! Having said that, what a city it would be :eek:

Anyway, my advice now would be pretty much the same - pump military units from Hamburg, workers and settlers from Leipzig, and get founding Green, Purple, Red and Yellow (together, and as Leipzig is abandoned, once we have enough workers).

I agree with you that Green is a good pre-build city. In fact, it's a damn nice site all round...

A note on Temples: We pay "full price" for temples. We might want to consider making our first 'cultural' improvements libraries, which are half price for us, and plowing our early shields into our other trait: Militaristic.

Agreed - with barbarians raging around and the Russians to have a war with, we need armies more than temples...

I'm not ready to abandon Hamburg any time soon, but I don't want to invest anything in improvements if we should decide to abandon it eventually.

:thumbsup:

I know we need to get some good cities up and running soon, but what do you all think about the spices south of Berlin? I would sure hate to see the Russians claim those, and they are right between Berlin and Moscow....

Like I said above, my preferred founding order would now be Green then Purple... Purple would need to be defended well, I think...

Tal

I'll be playing my turns this evening. I was up in another SG last night, and it took me a little while because it was a game I joined mid-stream. Which reminds me...

I can't remember which of the 3 "new to SGs" teammates PM'd me yesterday on SGs in general... but that's a very good way to get involved in an SG. As you guys get more into SGs, (and get to know others) opportunities will present themselves. Somebody you've 'met' will drop you a PM with "we just had a slot open up in so-and-so, got game?"

Joining a game in progress presents an interesting challenge, because you have to size up a sitation that may be well-developed and complex. Last night (first turns in this game) I was dropped right into the middle of a war with Vikings, with a banged-up Stack of Doom on the doorsteps of Trondheim that had almost, but not quite, taken the city a few turns earlier. Re-grouping, reinforcing, and taking Trondheim was tricky, but fun! :hammer:

Just something to chew on while you guys wait for me to play my turns. It sounds like we have a consensus on "Green" as a good next city site. I doubt I'll get more than 1 settler out, because I plan to let Berlin grow a bit. I'll probably invest a few worker moves around Leipzig so it can produce more workers... we are going to need a LOT of worker moves to develop our core...

@ Scout- I guess I'll have to break down and get C3C one of these days, as finding plain Vanilla SG's is rough in these high tech times :D

Good luck with your turns.

HA! You think vanilla's bad? The increased the min gambit from 40 to 50 turns in C3C.:(

This is going to be painful... Hopefully you guys will be more amused than upset with me.... but first, a digression.

I got nominated for a "Player's Choice" award in GOTM30, for my contributions to the "Spoiler Threads". First there was "Scout's Ouch 1", a screencap of me getting beaten to the U.N. - by a single turn. Then there was "Scout's Ouch 2", me getting beaten to SETI. Again, by one turn.

Seeing a trend emerging, in GOTM31 I posted "Scout's Ouch v.1.31", me losing an ARMY to a culture flip.

After you guys read my turnlog, please, please tell me you're laughing "near" me, and not "at" me. This one really, really hurts.

@"Q" - Please, please don't try to top this mistake I just made.
@Gengis - you are allowed to laugh AT me.
@Tweed - looks like we're gonna need the warriors we're gonna pump out of that little town you founded. I lost 2.
@Tal - you might have let Berlin riot, but... not on the turn you handed it off to Tweed.

That's right. I mis-clicked, didn't catch it, and let Berlin riot. On turn ten. There is a silver lining to this cloud, but first, "Scout's Ouch, v.sgotm2.1": (I zoomed out, but if you look close, you can see the smoke from the :smoke:)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Scouts_SGOTM2_OUCH.jpg

That's not that bad, you had me worried like you got us into war with the Russians & we have a stack of doom outside Berlin.

Pre-flight check.

Worker will be finished roading next turn. Excellent.

Cities:

Change queue in Berlin to warrior. Done next turn. Growth next turn without MM. Good.
Change Leipzig to worker (6)
Hamburg to Warrior.

Diplo Check
Russia has contact with England and France, and can trade contact. This tells me 2 things:
1) Russia has writing
2) At this stage of the game (pre-map making) England and France are on this landmass... remember to discuss research priorities with team

Buy Alphabet from Russia for 70g+6gpt
=====
IBT - Barb warrior attacks our warrior and dies.
Berlin Warrior>Warrior
=====
Turn 1 (2110)
I take a screencap of Berlin - with the BG tile NW of the city, it is producing exactly 5spt, and 5 surplus fpt.

Worker begins mining tile NW of Berlin
Scouting warrior near Moscow moves west to make contact - sees an orange border!
=====
IBT -
Hamburg Warrior>Archer (7)
=====
Turn 2 (2070)
Hit F3 - Barb warning near Leipzig, new warrior moves W from Hamburg
Western warrior moves west next to English border. We have met the English
Elizabeth (polite) up Writing, Masonry, has 3 cities plus London, 64g and contact with France.
Check Russia. Up writing, Masonry, Has one city besides Moscow (St. Petersburg). Has a worker for sale!!!!
I buy a Russian worker for 3gpt.
Slave worker goes to help mine BG NW of Berlin
=====
IBT -
Berlin Warrior>Settler
=====
Turn 3 (2030)
This could get touchy here... Berlin (Size 5) needs the warrior for MP duty. MM citizen on unmined BG to forest next to river. Grows in 4, Settler in 4.
Hamburg warrior NW to Leipzig
Continue to move scouting warriors into the fog...we must find the french
Diplo Check - Russia is now up Iron Working
=====
IBT - Nothing
=====
Turn 4 (1990)
Push warriors into the fog
Diplo check, nothing new
=====
IBT - An English Warrior moves into York
=====
Turn 5 (1950)
Push Warriors into fog
No change in Diplo
=====
IBT - A barb warrior appears out of the fog to the east (way east)
Leipzig Worker>Worker
=====
Turn 6 (1910)
Leipzig worker moves to Ivory (we need the lux)
Skip Warrior in Berlin (for settler escort)
Move Eastern scouting warrior to jungle tile...
Move our worker NW to work on road to Leipzig
Move slave SW of Berlin to start roading
No change in diplomacy
=====
IBT - Barb warrior kills our eastern scouting warrior
Berlin Settler>Warrior
=====
Turn 7 (1870)
Trying to remember Offa's 4-turn unit/factory trick... it seems the magic number is ten shields in a single turn. We need a pop 5 city when we build the escort...
Settler Pair East
All worker start roads
=====
IBT - our western warrior is killed by barbs...
=====
Turn 8 (1830)
Move a warrior N near Leipzig, spot a barb camp.
Southern scouting warrior continues to push into the fog.
Settler Pair NE
Diplo check, Russia has a worker for sale, but I can't afford it.
=====
IBT
Hamburg Archer>Warrior
=====
Turn 9 (1790)
Settler pair towards green site
Archer towards settler pair
2 barbs are in camp N of Leipzig, fortify and hope one attacks across river...
=====
IBT - Leipzig is now connected to Ivory
Barb warrior attacks our warrior and dies, our warrior promotes

In a precedent-setting :smoke: move, our team's fearless "leader" mis-clicked and set the queue to "Archer" instead of "warrior" in Berlin, missed the mis-click and the city's growth, and ....

Berlin Riots (WHAT!??!?!)

check berlin - was set to Archer? :mad: Berlin Hires a taxman.
=====
Turn 10
Found Konigsberg
Move Archer next to Konigsberg
Whack a barb camp and collect 25g, warrior promotes to elite
Diplo check - Russia will now offer us Masonry for 35g+3gpt. I think we'll wait an buy it when it's cheaper.
=====

After Action Review:

The good: Got Konigsberg founded. Started a Temple. Need some serious worker turns to improve it before it can legitimately build a wonder. (Great Library). Bought a worker from Russia. Pretty cheap.

The bad: Lost a couple of scouting warriors.

The ugly: Welp, I let Berlin Riot...sorry about that Q. Hopefully it'll snap back next turn, produce the archer, and give you something to work with.

Some things for the next player:

There is a worker SE of Leipzig, ready to build a road. That road will hook up the Ivory, and solve some of our happiness problems.

Those are actually 2 workers SW of Berlin, the slave is roading. Move the German worker SW to mine that grass square by the river, then road. This is part of something pretty powerful.

Here's the silver lining - I think we have a potential 4-turn unit/settler factory here. I couldn't quite get it going, but over the next 10 turns, I think we might be able to pump out 4-5 settlers AND 4 or so Warriors.

Offa did a little trick in GOTM30 that went beyond Bamspeedy's "Babylon's Diety Settlers" that was awesome. I believe the key was 10 shields in a single turn (to make a warrior) and then making a settler in 3. (A settler costs 30 shields). Even if we can't quite make a warrior settler pair every 4 turns, if we can do it every 5, we can get right back in this game pretty quick.

I'll try to find a link.

Okay - Offa posted a settler factory in GOTM30 that managed to pump out a warrior AND a settler every 4 turns. I'm not quite sure that we'll be able to achieve that here, but everybody have a look at Offa's GOTM30 Spoiler post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1739190&postcount=23) and let's see if we can't figure out a way to apply the same principles here.

Following that, we need to figure out if we need a Temple in Konigsberg or not, and how we're going to get the workers down there to do the needed improvements.

I'm going to upload my save now.

Poor old Scout! :lol: Those pesky Berliners - always whinging about something ;)

I like the idea of the settler factory - looks like we'll need it if we are competing against three other nations for this continental landmass... Am just going to open some discussion topics now...

Diplomacy

So, we have 3 civilizations to fend off. Question is, who out of those is the least aggressive, or the most likely ally? I have never had anything but grief from England and Russia, so I am thinking it would be the French...

Will we want to have an immediate, decisive war against one of these?

Exploration

Do we need to step this up a little? Mainly because we keep losing scouts :rolleyes: Also, I hate not knowing exactly what my enemies are up to!

Konigsberg

Going for a long build/pre-build, I always find it helps to have a temple. Just adds a bit more security... With the ivory, two MPs and a temple, Konigsberg can grow fairly big without us having to worry about it mid-GL. Also, a temple will open up another BG square...

Military

More archers and warriors needed - we could also do with spearmen as a matter of some urgency - a large uprising of horsemen could put a serious dent in our fledgling empire!


Over to you guys...

Regarding the settler factory: I believe even Offa thinks you have to have a cow to pull it off.... but if we put our heads together, maybe we can think of a way to pull off a 4-5 turn unit/settler factory. We'll just have to think carefully, and be prepared to do a little micromanagement.

Regarding the other civs, and possible war: Russia is the nearest neighbor, and the most obvious threat. Before we get into planning for such things - I need to "put something on the table here".

There are a lot of "little things", particularly with respect to war, that can really bite you when the time comes for the U.N. vote. We'll probably need to have a whole separate discussion on just that...

Regarding Exploration: That is an important priority right now. The single most important thing is to make contact with the French - for tech trading. When that elite warrior north of Leipzig heals, he could be sent west. There is another warrior generally east of Moscow. He should continue to push into the fog to the east and southeast. The French are somewhere on this landmass, and we must find them.

The temple in Konigsberg is open to discussion....and I 'd like Gengis to weigh in on it. We can send another warrior from Hamburg as an MP, and use the archer to fend off any barbs that show up. We definitely need to get Konigsberg, and spices, connected as soon as we can. Ivory will be hooked up in about 3 turns.

Regarding the military - I think it might be a little early for spears yet. I'll let Gengis weigh in on that too. Once we get a decent high shield city up and running, we'll probably want a barracks, and put together a unit factory.

Back to the dotmaps, and a question:

Do you guys see a city site that lacks fresh water, but has enough food to grow to size 6, with maybe a couple of bonus grass or plains tiles nearby? That's the sort of thing we're looking for in a unit factory....

I'm working some numbers for various forms of factories, but I'm at work now and can't post much. I'll get back with ya'll in a couple of hours.

Do you guys see a city site that lacks fresh water, but has enough food to grow to size 6, with maybe a couple of bonus grass or plains tiles nearby? That's the sort of thing we're looking for in a unit factory....

Not without fresh water... Both the red and yellow cities from my earlier dotmap would be suitable shield rich sites, though. The others require too much worker improvement to be worthwhile unit factories...

Tal

@ Scout- You call that a screw up? You haven't seen the things I've done before playing this game :eek:

I'd like to wait until Friday evening ( Western European Time) to play my turns, so we can get some discussion in first. Ya'll jump in with whatever you've got!

Playing with the numbers, I don't see Berlin getting to a 4/5 turn factory without lumberjacking one of the forests to grassland. If it turns out to be bonus grassland that's better, but if not that's ok because we're lacking food. (If only that plains wheat was on grassland...) Since we have the slave worker roading the forest square anyway, I would recommend having him start chopping after he roads. The native worker could mine and road the BG, then come back and assist the chopping. If not, we have a 6 turn unit/settler factory after the BG is mined.

I agree, getting down south and meeting Joanie is crucial. We need to try and pick up some techs at 3rd tier to keep up, at least until the GL comes in. Speaking of which, I say we try to trade HBR for Writing when it comes in, and start going for Lit. We also need to scout a bit more up north. Hopefully our next bunch of troops are a bit heartier :D

Konigsberg should probably get the temple first. It will take some time to connect it to our network (roading over mountain, hill and/or jungle), and it needs to grow. We should be able to get some workers down there soon, especially if we irrigate the flood plains in Leipzig.

Sorry for the double post. I agree with Tal, there's not much without fresh water that has enough food to get to 6. Both red and yellow would be good unit farms.

Triple post! In my blindness, I didn't see that we had a grassland in the south of Berlin's area. No lumberjacking needed.

Temple in Kongisburg: I like the temple, but only because it's the most expensive thing we have. Writing is already owned by everyone so we really should be starting our pre-build, the temple works fine for this until we get Masonry. We won't need those borders expanded until we're at pop 6 or so, and at that point the GL will be giving us culture.

Leipzig: Get rid of the build queue, then after the worker I'd go with a warrior, then more workers. We've got to get that city up in pop a bit & improved so we can do better then kick out a worker every 10 turns.

Berlin: Tricky, but I don't think we can get a 4 turn unit/settler factory. The best we can get is 5 food per turn, and at that we're making 6 sheilds per turn. I think we can we're going to have to settle for a 5 turn settler pump. The one thing that can really help us, chopping down some forest to find a BG, we don't have the workers for.

Spices- I think the spot 1SE,3S will be good, it's at RCP 5.5, has river access & one of the spices. Unfortunatly it has nothing but jungle, but what can you do.

Archers- I don't think we need them. I'd much rather have 2 warriors at this point then an archer or a spear.

Berlin: Tricky, but I don't think we can get a 4 turn unit/settler factory. The best we can get is 5 food per turn, and at that we're making 6 sheilds per turn. I think we can we're going to have to settle for a 5 turn settler pump. The one thing that can really help us, chopping down some forest to find a BG, we don't have the workers for.


Once we have the last BG mined, we can make it a 5 turn warrior/settler pump.

1) Work Wheat-BG-BG-BG-Forest for 2 food and 10 shields (warrior)
2) Work Game-Wheat-BG-BG-BG for 5 food and 8 shields
3) Work Game-BG-BG-BG-Forest for 3 food and 9 shields (grow and work forest, leave 19 shields in the box)
4) Work Game-Wheat-BG-BG-BG-Grassland for 5 food and 8 shields (total 27 shields)
5) Same as #4, grow and return to pop 5. This method does waste 7 shields, though.

I like the temple (in Konigsberg), but only because it's the most expensive thing we have.
Considering the comment re: Writing, it sounds like we need to use the temple as a pre-build, switch to Pyramids when we get Masonry, then to GL when we get Lit. Masonry is available for purchase. I thought it wise to let the treasury build up a bit after buying a worker and alphabet... Catherine wanted our entire treasury for Masonry.

I suspect the price for Masonry to drop when we meet France.

Re: Leipzig - I thought about letting the population grow a bit in Leipzig, but we'll need that worker to move south just as soon as that road is complete. We need lots of worker turns around Konigsberg...

Having said that, the next worker out of Leipzig could be used to irrigate/road a floodplain tile for growth, then irrigate/road a plains tile for food/shields, and develop that city into a worker pump... concur that we need to build a warrior there to let the city grow a bit.

If we can get Berlin to size 5, we should be able to make a warrior in a single turn. Do you think we might be able to do a 5-turn unit/settler cycle? Or do you think even that's out of reach?

Spices- I think the spot 1SE,3S will be good, it's at RCP 5.5, has river access & one of the spices. Unfortunatly it has nothing but jungle, but what can you do.
I believe that is Tal's "purple city". Yes, it will need many worker turns. If the Russians weren't so close I'd say wait on it, but I think it's important to claim those spices - with the next settler. There is an incense hill E. of Konigsberg, but it will be some time before (if) we can claim it.

Archers- I don't think we need them. I'd much rather have 2 warriors at this point then an archer or a spear.
The archer build in Berlin was a stupid mis-click on my part. I meant to build a warrior there. I wanted one Archer near our wonder city (Konigsberg) for barb control. We need at least one more warrior there as an MP, especially if we don't plan to finish the temple. Lots of warriors sounds like a good idea at the moment.

At the moment, I wonder if we ought to consider interrupting Berlin's settler production to get a worker out of there to help connect and improve Konigberg....

Edit - cross-posted with Q, and so far I like his idea...Gengis - give that a look....

I'm not sure what third BG he's talking about, we have 2 BGs, 2 regular grasslands, and a whole bunch of forests that might contain a BG.

@ Scout- I like the idea of kicking a worker out of Berlin before setting up the factory. It will take at least 7 turns to get the BG mined, anyway. The worker from Berlin could start the road to Konigsberg and the worker roading south of Leipzig could join in that endeavour. The worker/slave team could then road to purple town to hook up the spices.

What about the Berlin archer? Do we take him scouting, or leave him around the Fatherland for barbs? I'd say scout, but I want ya'll's opinions.

I'm not sure what third BG he's talking about, we have 2 BGs, 2 regular grasslands, and a whole bunch of forests that might contain a BG.
My bad. It looked like a BG SW of the workers. All that math for nothing :rolleyes:
I guess a 5 turn settler factory, then.

Edit- Or a 4 turn settler factory after the regular grassland is mined. Then we can get 5 food/7 shields per turn.

actually if u look at berlin you can work out which one of the forests when deforested will contain a bonus grassland, its the square surrounded by the most good squares, ie one square directly south of berlin, if we forested that we would have an extra b grassland and can setup the 4 turn factory.

actually if u look at berlin you can work out which one of the forests when deforested will contain a bonus grassland, its the square surrounded by the most good squares, ie one square directly south of berlin, if we forested that we would have an extra b grassland and can setup the 4 turn factory.

How can you tell that?

Bah! Silly forum! Lost my rather lengthy post on the merits of our position.

Basically it said pop a worker (need lots), let Berlin grow a bit, send the warrior in berlin scouting, keep the archer at home, and found the purple city.

@Q: Go get 'em!


Tal

We're probably going to need to keep the warrior in Berlin for MP duty for a bit.. at least until we can get a couple of lux hooked up, and get some more citizens working roaded tiles (for gold, so we can afford lux tax when needed)

...just a thought.

"Q", have you "got it"?

Order of go -

Q - Up, go ahead and play unless you have questions
Gengis - on deck
Tal - warming up in the bullpen
Tweed - warming the bench for the moment
Scout - just finished a turnset with a "weed" move...

"Got it"
Will play this evening and post in a few hours.

I just uploaded the save. No major events ocurred this round. I'll post the turnlog sometime tomorrow.

Aw man, not even a screenie? What happened Q, did you draw 'barnacle patrol' or something this evening? :p

Aw man, not even a screenie? What happened Q, did you draw 'barnacle patrol' or something this evening? :p

He's been cleaning out the bilges.... ;)

Here's a screeny...


Tal

No cleaning of bilges or barnacles, just a wife saying "Get to bed!" :lol:

Here's some screenies- First to the NE
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM_Scout1500BC_NE.jpg

Now, to the SE

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM_Scout1500BC_SE.jpg

Turnlog-

Preflight checks- 35G+ 3 GPT, removed build queue from Leipzig, MM citizen in Hamburg to BG (growth in 4, warrior in 4)
Hit Enter

IBT- Berlin produced Archer, start Worker (growth in 2, Worker in 2)

Turn 1 (1725 BC) - Bump Berlin Archer for MP
Worker SW of Berlin to Grassland
E Archer E
Leipzig Worker Road
Elite Warrior rest
SE scout S
GPT at 2
Diplo- Cathy’s Cautious, Neither her nor Liz wants to trade Masonry

IBT- nada

Turn 2 (1700 BC) – Berlin Archer bump
Worker SW Berlin Mine (complete in 6)
E Archer E
Elite Warrior Heal
SE scout S
Diplo- Liz wants all our money for Masonry, I pass

IBT- Berlin completes Worker, starts Settler. Helmet Boy says Barbs near Konigsberg

Turn 3 (1675 BC) – Bump Berlin Archer
New Worker to Gold Mtn by Hamburg
E Archer S
Elite Warrior NE ( Meant to hit NW, but decided it was ok)
SE scout SE, sees coast
Diplo- Liz added Canterbury

IBT- Hamburg produces Warrior, MM for zero growth, Warrior in 3.
Cathy establishes embassy with us, she has ROP with Liz, back to Polite with us, still wants all our money for Masonry, wants all our money + ROP for Contact with France. I pass.

Turn 4 (1650 BC)- Hamburg Warrior S towards Konigsberg
Gold Mtn Worker- Road (complete in 9)
Bump Berlin Archer
Leipzig Worker completes Road, moves towards gold mtn
Elite Warrior N, uncovers Horse N of Lake
E Archer S
SE scout E
Decrease lux, go to +5 GPT
Diplo- No change

IBT- Barb moves next to Elite Warrior to N, barb appears 2 from SE scout

Turn 5 (1625 BC)- Berlin Grows, Lux back to 10%
Elite Warrior E
Worker to Gold Mtn
Bump Berlin Archer
Warrior SW towards Konigsberg
E Archer W
SE scout E
Diplo- no change

IBT- Hamburg produces warrior, move towards Berlin. Leipzig produces Worker, starts Warrior

Turn 6 (1600 BC)- Leipzig Worker NW to FP
Worker starts helping Gold Mtn Road, finish in 4
Warrior to Konigsberg
E Archer N
Bump Berlin Archer
Elite Warrior W, uncovers cow
SE scout SE
MM Berlin (Grow in 2, Settler in 2)
Diplo- No change

IBT- Hamburg completes Warrior, starts Warrior (complete in 3)

Turn 7 (1575 BC) - Hamburg Warrior to Berlin
Bump Berlin Archer
Leipzig Worker Irrigate
Elite Warrior N- Meets Barb Horse
Fortify Konigsberg Warrior
E Archer N
SE scout E
Diplo- No change

IBT- Elite Warrior Defeats Barb Horse, surrounded by Barb Warrior and new Barb Horse
Berlin produces Settler, starts Settler (4 turn factory started)
Russia starts Pyramids

Turn 8 (1550 BC) – Lux 20%
Settler S, Berlin Archer escort
Worker SW of Berlin completes mine, starts road
E Archer S
Elite warrior W
SE scout S
Diplo- No change

IBT- Elite warrior defeats barb warrior and barb horse, down to 3/5, changes name to One Bad Dude (OBD)
2 barb warriors chasing SE scout
Diplo- Cathy has worker for sale, buy for 27 Gold

Turn 9 (1525 BC) – OBD W
New slave SW to help road Grassland
Slave 1 completes forest road, joins stack on Grassland
Warrior arrives in Berlin, change Lux to 0
Settler/Archer S
E Archer S
SE scout SW
Diplo- No Change

IBT- Barb warriors chase SE scout
Hamburg completes Warrior, starts Warrior

Turn 10 (1500 BC) – Hamburg Warrior to Berlin
Berlin Warrior to worker stack SW
Settler/Archer S
E Archer S
OBD Heals
SE scout S
Native Worker SW of Berlin- S

After Action Report-

42G in bank, +11 GPT, HBR in 17

Berlin is set up as a 4 turn Settler pump. The workers SW are making a stack to hook up purple town ( after it's founded) and the spices. Warrior is heading to purple town for MP.

Hooking up Konigsberg was tricky. The road could have gone over a hill, then Jungle, or over Mountain then hill. I chose the latter because it also got Hamburg on the network for the same amount of worker turns.

Not extremely efficient scouting, but I wanted to keep the troops close to the Fatherland. Good looking land to the NE, though.

We can get Contact with Joanie from Cathy, but for a lot of money and a ROP. I also held off on buying Masonry because we don't need it yet to dump Konigsberg's shields.

That's about it. Any critiques would be welcome.

@ Q: Solid turns! :thumbsup:

I like the way you checked diplo every turn, and I like the way you thought through the worker moves. Our worker moves are going to be very important in this game.

Now that the settler pump is primed... some thoughts:

After Tal's "White" site is settled, what would you guys think about working on our outer ring before we fiddle with adjusted city sites north and northeast? I believe there is some incense to be claimed to the east....is that a horse on the north side of the lake that's N NW of Leipzig?

Open to suggestion as to where our next ring should be. It looks like the coast to the NE is the only area close enough to Berlin to build galleys, and we will eventually need some for finding the other civs.

A thought on scouting: With Hamburg pumping warriors every 3 turns, and Berlin pumping settlers every 4, we should be able to get a warrior to the east in a few turns. The warrior that found the coast to the SE can push southward into the fog. France is on this continent somewhere, and it doesn't make sense to me to buy a contact we can (eventually) get ourselves.

After Tal's "White" site is settled, what would you guys think about working on our outer ring before we fiddle with adjusted city sites north and northeast? I believe there is some incense to be claimed to the east....is that a horse on the north side of the lake that's N NW of Leipzig?

Open to suggestion as to where our next ring should be. It looks like the coast to the NE is the only area close enough to Berlin to build galleys, and we will eventually need some for finding the other civs.

A thought on scouting: With Hamburg pumping warriors every 3 turns, and Berlin pumping settlers every 4, we should be able to get a warrior to the east in a few turns. The warrior that found the coast to the SE can push southward into the fog. France is on this continent somewhere, and it doesn't make sense to me to buy a contact we can (eventually) get ourselves.
Sorry about the poor quality screenies as it was my first time posting them. I realize now I could make them a little bigger :)

That is a horse N of the lake, and the closest one I can see to our empire. I'm having difficulties with city placement between using RCP and all of the mountains, desert and other junk terrain around us. Somebody a little brighter than me could probably figure it out. That said, I think building out then in is a good idea.

France is somewhere, but I'm leaning more to the SW. If we could get a scout through the gap between England and Russia I think we could explore that area more effectively. I meant for OBD to go W to the mountains and then down, but I'm kind of happy I went around the lake to the E instead. I think now I held too many units in the empire, but I was hoping to keep the lux rate down by using MP's and saving some money. Getting the balance right can be tricky.

got it

I'll be playing in the AM, I hearby nominate Scouts for posting in the spoiler thread when we get to that point.

I'll be playing in the AM, I hearby nominate Scouts for posting in the spoiler thread when we get to that point.
I second the nomination. It is his name on the game :D

Spoiler thread?!?!?! Um... first off, we need to get to the middle ages and make 3 contacts. (Somebody please find Joanie...) Second, have any of you guys seen my spoiler posts?

Flight Check Military Report: 1 settler, 4 workers, 9 warriors, & 2 archers. Not too shabby, despite my Domestic Advisor screaming that we need more workers.

HBR due in 17, with 42g & 11gpt. Nice, gotta love when a gambit looks like it’ll pay off.
Russia has 185g(+3gpt from us) and is up Masonry, IW, & Writing.
England has 53g and is up Masonry & Writing.

Cathy is willing to sell IW for 12gpt & 42g, which I could probably then trade for Alphabet. Decent deal for a two-fer, I’ll take it. (mostly because we’ll need IW to plan our layout)
Buy IW from Cathy for 12gpt & 30g.
Bad news is we can’t get writing, we get Masonry & 33g for IW from Lizzy.
Iron ahoy! We have Iron NE of Leipzig, one next to the coast N of Hamburg, and another just outside our border of Kongisburg.

Take warrior out of Leipzig & send him east.
Take warrior out of Hamburg, send him to Berlin. Then take a warrior out of Berlin and send him east too.

MM Leipzig so we’ll get an extra food when our worker finishes next turn.

IT- Nada

T1(1475)- Send a warrior west our of Kongisburg.

IT- Settler produced. Start another.

T2(1450)- Found Frankfurt, which starts on a warrior.
Workers start forest chop below Berlin.
Turn off Lux.

IT- Warrior & an archer fend off barb horsemen attacks. I smell 25g around somewhere.
Hamburg: Warrior>Warrior

T3(1425)- Cathy & Lizzy have MapMaking.

IT- Nada

T4(1400)- This map is freakin huge!
Some MMing.
Found Munish(red dot)
Bump up Lux to 10% for 2 turns.

IT- Leipzig: Warrior>Worker

T5(1375)- Buy Writing off Cathy for WM & 47g.
Buy Contact with the French from Lizzy for WM, 1gpt & 8g. (I just had to sell our WM for something).
Joan is at parity with us, Cathy & Liz both are up just MMing.

IT- Berlin: Settler>Settler
Hamburg: Warrior>Warrior

T6(1350)- Lux off.
I think this will be the last warrior from Hamburg.

IT- More nada.

T7(1325)- A warrior spots a mushroom village. He doesn’t even recognize the thing, it’s been so long since we’ve seen one.
Trade our WM & 12g for Lizzy’s TM.
Trade our WM for Cathy’s TM & 9g.

IT- Spot a second barb camp.
Warrior fends off barb horseman & promotes.

T8(1300)- Warrior kills barb, nets us 25g.
Everyone has Myst, Joanie is still down MMing.

IT- Warrior fends off two barbs & promotes.
Hamburg: Warrior>doesn’t matter.

T9(1275)- NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!! Cathy and Lizzy have HBR.
Considering it will cost us over 50g for it, we might as well just finish up.
Bump up Lux to 10%.
Get a warrior from friendly barbs.
Abandon & refound Hamburg.

IT- Berlin: settler>settler

T(10)- Kill a barb, get 25g.
Lux off.

**End o’ Turn Report**
*I have a settler going to the orange dot to get iron in our borders now.
*I’d put off connecting the iron for awhile, we have bigger priorities with our workers.
*We need to figure out where our next ring is going to be. I’ve got a map that should help out.

*We need to decide if we’re playing just to win, or are we playing for the fasted UN victory. If it’s the first: then we don’t need to buy any techs(until Lit), we’ll get them from the GL. If it’s the latter, then we should buy those techs that Joanie is down, and sell them to her(or gift even) to get her at parity so the pace will speed up.

Note that the map doesn't stretch all the way to the west, we can see 2 more English cities that aren't shown.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/world1.JPG

This map is unbelievable huge... I'm starting to wonder if we need to build a second settler pump in the north. Wow!

Gengis raised an excellent point in his last comment. Now, we're not committed to playing the variant yet, but I have my reasons for wanting to play it - but the time to start strategizing is now.

First - there are no doubt some teams with some awfully strong players on them, and if any of these teams pursue an early domination/conquest win, we will be hard pressed to be competitive.

Second - and this may sound a little insane here - early diplo wins are tough to achieve, and GK is onto something. IMO, the key to winning the variant does not lie in building a bunch of panzers and capturing the U.N. It lies in setting a tech pace to the modern era that is absolutely blistering. If we're on the very best of terms with everybody that's left, then it should not matter who builds the UN - as long as they build it.

Remember - the variant bonus is not for the highest-scoring variant win. It's for the fastest. Stop and think about this for a minute:

Score does not matter. Only speed.

What do you guys think? Do you want to try the variant?

First of all, I would love to try the variant :) Makes a change from covering the map in blue...

Second - got it!

Third, I am just working up a dot map for RCP 9 which looks like it has some outstanding squares. However, RCP10 isn't half bad either, and on a map this size, we could quite easily have very large cities in terms of area/tiles and still get over the limit for optimal city number/corruption.

Anyway, I'll do RCP 9 for now, I will post it later.

FYI - I will play my turns tomorrow morning I think, or maybe very late tonight if there has been plenty of discussion from everyone. Also, I am away from tomorrow for two weeks. I will be able to post but will only be able to take my turns if a rather old PC of mine or my laptop will run C3...

Tal

OK, forgot to say, nice turns, Gengis :)

Here's the map. A few notes...

All red spots are RCP 9 (i.e. either 9 or 9.5 units away from Berlin). As you can see, there are lots. I have highlighted the initial footprint of the 4 cities I believe to be the strongest.

The sites available near Russia are more tricky - I would not expect them to last very long, in fact I am sure a settler will sprog from Moscow fairly soon to claim some of those nice river/BG squares. The question is, what do we want to do about it?

Tal

@Tal: What are your thoughts on your turns? Any ideas?

@Q, Tweed: You guys with us? Thoughts on playing the variant?

@Team: What do you guys think about starting a second settler pump in the northeast? Say...Munich?

@Tal: What are your thoughts on your turns? Any ideas?

@Q, Tweed: You guys with us? Thoughts on playing the variant?

@Team: What do you guys think about starting a second settler pump in the northeast? Say...Munich?

More exploration, this should be easy with the number of scouts now in the field.

Continue settler pump, settle the city near the iron first, then try either for one near Russia or the hill site with the incense, depending on what happens.

Maintain a strong military to prevent bullying demands - nothing worse for diplomatic relations than telling the AI to go take a running jump...

Here's a thought, also... Two of the city sites I emphasised in the dotmap are ports, and with map-making being widely known already, we should make founding a port city a top three priority, in my opinion... Meeting the other civs first will be a massive economic, scientific and diplomatic boost.

As for the second settler pump, I say yes, asap. There is a desperate need for a quick 6 settlers...


Tal

Tal - I took your dotmap and played with it for just a few minutes. I have pointed out some RCP9 sites that all have access to fresh water. This will save us the cost of building (and maintaining) aqueducts. I would like it if the whole team would take a look at the dotmaps and offer comment.

It's real important that we develop the strategy together...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/tm_scout_SE_RCP9.jpg

Some other questions:

Konigsberg: Temple in 6. Do we need it? Or is it time to switch to Pyramids as a Great Library pre-build? (GK?)

Some other questions:

Konigsberg: Temple in 6. Do we need it? Or is it time to switch to Pyramids as a Great Library pre-build? (GK?)

In the save I received, GK has already changed the pre-build to Palace, in 86 turns, so don't worry!

In the save I received, GK has already changed the pre-build to Palace, in 86 turns, so don't worry!Okay, I feel silly now. :D (Sorry GK...)

Don't feel silly! You're not psychic, after all...

As for your dotmap, much better - I also see you picked up on the two deliberate errors! :mischief:

I like the yellow sites you have highlighted in the NE and SE - better than the red ones I highlighted, I think. The middle one you ringed would be my choice for next city to be built, after the green one (in 2 turns time, that settler is already on the way...), but how I would love to steal one of those southern sites from Cathy :)

First, great turns GK :goodjob:

Both dotmaps at RCP 9 look fine, we grab the incense and start getting a port city online. I'm generally a big fan of not building aqueducts if not necessary. I agree w/ Tal about the spots closest to Russia. I think Cathy will get those (for now). We're nowhere close to fighting her for those.

Settler factory from Hamburg is fine. That's some great land up N, and we will need to secure that horse relatively soon. This continent is just huge, I'm a bit worried about how hard it will be to fight corruption and to find a suitable FP site.

I say to try for the variant. Keeping Joanie up to speed will help her research better, and we'll just keep the tech pace quick. It will be nice to find the other continent- I'm hoping it's to the east and not the west!

@Tal: 'deliberate errors'? :hmm: :spank:

@Q: Good point on port cities. Tal spotted one up north that would be a decent port city. We need to get some galleys out and meet the other AI... not sure Hamburg would be a good settler factory... need more food. Perhaps in the NW near the ivory... we have floodplains up there that we're irrigating.

another @ Tal - if you don't mind, let's give Gengis and Tweed a chance to get in on the discussion before you play. Would you mind waiting a day?

@Tweed: It's been a couple of days since you've posted to the thread... are you still with us? You're 'on deck'...

another @ Tal - if you don't mind, let's give Gengis and Tweed a chance to get in on the discussion before you play. Would you mind waiting a day?

No problem, I will play tomorrow morning rather than tonight, so Gengis and Tweed have about 14 hours from this posting to catch up and speak now or forever hold their peace...

Tal

My bad, meant Munich.

@Tal: Thank you. This will give us some time to get Tweed into the discussion and let Gengis weigh in on some of this stuff.

In looking at the dotmaps, that floodplain site NE of Konigsberg might make a decent (if removed) secondary worker pump.

Somebody mentioned something about land grab competition from Cathy. Why might that be less of a concern at the moment?

@Tal: Thank you. This will give us some time to get Tweed into the discussion and let Gengis weigh in on some of this stuff.

In looking at the dotmaps, that floodplain site NE of Konigsberg might make a decent (if removed) secondary worker pump.

Somebody mentioned something about land grab competition from Cathy. Why might that be less of a concern at the moment?

Unless I'm missing some sort of trick question here, the only reason I can think of is that there is more to be gained by settling elsewhere, nearer our core. We are not actively trying to shaft Catherine yet, so to speak. If we do decide that a war is necessary, we can do that later. No sense putting the cart before the horse...

*Edit* - I will check in with the thread and any PMs tomorrow morning before I play. Let me know if you have anything further to suggest...

Dot maps look good guys. I like the yellow outlined flood plain city, red circled dot, yellow dot, then aournd the circle. I'd start with the green, then go either red's(to the NW) or towards Russia to prevent them from grabbing them.

If we're going for the variant we can buy & sell some techs to Joanie to get her caught up. We're also going to want to get some suicide galleys in the water ASAP to meet the other nations. At that point we'll see where they're at, and if they're a ways ahead of us we can introduce everyone to each other to further speed up the tech pace.

If we're going for quickest UN win, any war we make will just cripple a Civ and slow down the tech pace. This map apears big enough for us to get down a couple solid core rings of cities peacefully. If we get lucky we might be able to go through the entire game with only making a single war(to capture the UN).

Ok, here come my turns :)

Pre-flight Tyre Kicking

90 gold, 8gpt which will increase soon; lots of scouts out (heh!); HBR in 7, and 3 AI civs to wheel and deal with; no barbarian warning from Helmut...


IBT - barbarian galley moves into view, but gone are the days when 10 horsemen pile off them, thank god...

Turn 1 - 1225 BC

Lots of scouting; check diplomacy, nothing much has changed, and the price of useful techs is still too high.

IBT - Frankfurt Warrior; Leipzig Worker; Forest harvested near Berlin, BG revealed

Turn 2 - 1200 BC

More scouting - no barbs. Impossible to MM Berlin to delay settler to coincide with city growth. Set worker tasks - irrigating ivory near Leipzig, and decide to road new BG square before mining, as the settler pump works fine and the spices need to be connected.

I now believe the French are somewhere south of England and Russia. Found no trace of them yet... Russia have 502 gold and are still up 3 techs. Cathy wants 110g, 1gpt and our map for her world map. I guess it must be drawn on sheets of inlaid gold, with diamonds representing cities...

IBT - Russia offers us Mysticism for 70g. I try to swap Mysticism with Mapmaking, hoping she won't notice. She's unimpressed, and I abort the deal... Settler produced in Berlin.

Turn 3 - 1175 BC

Heidelburg founded - going to be a tough city to improve. More exploration, some intersting discoveries... An inland sea beneath Minsk and plenty of bonus resources/trade goods. France still lack HBR, only 4 turns to go... Come on!

IBT - Barb appears out of the Black above Munich... grr!

Turn 4 - 1150 BC

It's all happening with the exploration - barbarian camp, cows galore... But best of all is the discovery of shallow seas to the northwest - surely the other continent!

The bad dude slaughters the barbarian near Munich. Russia up to 526 gold, we are up to 14gpt profit. No real change in diplomatic climate.

IBT - Barb horseman appears above Munich - definitely 25g to be had here...

Turn 5 - 1125 BC

The Dude (now capitalised) kills the horseman and discovers the camp - on mountains, of course... Warrior attacks other barb camp (also on mountains) and wins with one health left - 25g pocketed, and Coventry discovered...

More worker activity, the Empire is improving rapidly in some key areas... Berlin's cycle has been ruined by the foresting! MM as best I can, think it's sorted.

Diplomacy frustrating - no real changes, and England and Russia still want huge amounts for map making.. At least we have Writing already...

IBT - More horsemen appear in the far SE

Turn 6 - 1100 BC

Archer kills horseman. Up to 16gpt profit now, and have quite the bankroll... Still no diplomacy changes, and we get HBR next turn... Actually, there has been a change! Apparently, Lizzy has betrayed the French! Is there a war between them? I can't tell, as we have no embassies... That might explain the lack of cash and advances in France and England... It only costs 48 gold for an embassy with France, 46 for England. Tempting.

IBT - zip.

Turn 7 - 1075 BC

Sages learn HBR - set them on Literature at 40 turns. Immediately trade HBR and WM for Mysticism and French WM - could have got a few coins too, but Joan has 8g to her name. Don't want to bankrupt her. As I thought, Joan is WAY south... Not a good start location for the Frenchies... Hmm, a thought strikes me - the French have MM... How odd. Check around our neighbours. Lizzy and Cath want WM and 190 for map making - Joan only wants 190 gold. I barter down a bit, to 120g and 3gpt, then 99g and 4gpt. Take this latter, hoping to up the tech pace a touch. Leaves us with 102g, 13gpt profit and tech parity on this continent. Nice :)

I now have a tough call. Berlin is still off-cycle. I decide not to waste a turn's production by changing settler to temple for one turn. Berlin will grow in two, and sprogs a settler in 1 turn. Can MM Berlin to produce a military unit, whilst emphasising growth. Back on track...

Not much happens militarily, start roading second ivory.

IBT - Archer killed by horseman in SE. Bah!

Turn 8 - 1050 BC

Nuremberg founded - needs to be connected to a road asap, as it is our galley building port. Settler produced, queue in Berlin set to warrior. Settler decides to head south, to try to grab nice land near Russia. Warrior from berlin accompanies the settler.

IBT - zip

Turn 9 - 1025 BC

Not much happening - settler moves south, 3 workers move up to road towards Nuremberg, and improve that site. All work parties now have warrior escort unless they are well within our borders. Second continent discovered to be 2 squares in size! :blush: I am still convinced that we can see distant coastal waters though...

Spices now connected - makes happiness management easier :)

IBT - I was right - France was at war with England, and now Russia has been dragged into it, declaring war on Lizzy at the behest of France. Ouch. Bang goes the tech pace on this continent :rolleyes: It will perhaps enable us to get into a strong position, but I am sure it is not for the best overall..

Turn 10 - 1000 BC

Sir Dude destroys an encampment in the north, 25g cha-ching! Shame he can't promote any further really! Another two barb camps discovered, 50g up for grabs.

As a final move, I bought England's World Map, for our territory map and 18g. I wanted to give England a bit of cash, as she is fighting 2 enemies. I want fair play! Having said that, look what France did with the cash we gave her! Gace it all to Russia, who now has a monstrous 700g... Ah well...


State of the World

The war is not good, but overall I am happy with my turns. We have mapped virtually the entire continent, found the other continent, and achieved tech parity. Our finances look good (143g, +23gpt) and our Literature gambit and Library pre-build look well set (37 turns for Lit, 36 turns until we finish the palace...). Militarily we are doing ok - the barbarians are being controlled, and we have suffered only light casualties. The spices are connected, and our settler expansion is looking good. We have a port, building a galley, and plenty of workers. Munich is building a granary by the way. This is a long term investment, but is up for discussion in the between-turns round table chat. *Edit* P.S. Helmut is warning of barbarian tribes near Konigsberg... just FYI.

Screenies to follow.

Over and Out


Tal

The Empire...

The second continent? Tough to see on this image, but I'm convinced that above that whale, there is pale blue coastal water...

Last image... (I have way too much time on my hands...)

Looks like a solid set of turns there Tal :thumbsup: I'm a little busy at the moment, but I'll try to come back to your turnlog on my lunch hour and give it a more thorough reading.

Order of go:

Tweed: up
Scout: on deck
Q: Warming up in the bullpen
Gengis: Warming the bench
Tal: Putting his mapmaking tools away

@Tweed: how's school/work treating you? Do you think you can play this in a day or so after another round of discussion?

Our finances look good (143g, +23gpt) and our Literature gambit and Library pre-build look well set (37 turns for Lit, 36 turns until we finish the palace...)This has me slightly concerned, since the build cycle in Konigsberg will accelerate a little as the city grows. We will need to keep an eye on this and conserve cash in case we need to boost the research rate to get literature. I really do not want a Palace in Konigsberg...

This ought to be fun. I haven't been involved in a GL build in some time.

The only other thing I noted was the pair of arrows from the northeasterly settler pair in the latest world view. I'm pretty sure that the second move (second arrow) is not needed, and that settler should found a city on the floodplain right next to the river.

I don't know what you guys think, but I think having ~3/4 of our first two rings with fresh water will play nicely in the long term. Not having to pay gpt maintenance on 8-10 aqueducts would be almost as good as having the Colossus...

@Tal: I like the way you got us a coastal city and started a galley build. Getting some galleys out there exploring to find the other civs will be important.

On the wars - it might not be entirely bad if Lizzy got kicked off the planet, as long as we can find the other civs. As much as it pains me to say this, we should probably try to keep France around. The Industrious/Commercial traits really kick in during the late game, and France would be an excellent candidate for a U.N. build.

A possible Golden Age strat: IIRC, you can get a GA by building two wonders that play to one trait. We might be able to kick off a Middle Ages GA by building Copernicus' Observatory.... But that discussion is premature...

The only other thing I noted was the pair of arrows from the northeasterly settler pair in the latest world view. I'm pretty sure that the second move (second arrow) is not needed, and that settler should found a city on the floodplain right next to the river.

I don't know what you guys think, but I think having ~3/4 of our first two rings with fresh water will play nicely in the long term. Not having to pay gpt maintenance on 8-10 aqueducts would be almost as good as having the Colossus...

I've muddied the waters here... That NE warrior is on his own, just scouting the flood plain site fully, and preparing for the next settlement wave. Only the southern pair is a pair... Sorry for the confusion there.

And yes, I think you are right about the maintenance benefit on the aqueducts - most useful :)

Tal

@ Tal- Great turns :goodjob: We're really starting to move along now.
I was afraid that other continent was to the west. Now, we just might have to be Magellan to get over there :)
Liz getting kicked around might not be a bad thing at this point. It seems she was blessed with some of the better lands at the start, and the other two growing at her expense could be useful to us. Of course, the tech pace will slow down, but I think we should be in a good position once we find the other continent.
Kicking off our GA with Copernicus could be a good thing. If we are going for the variant we can't wait around for Panzers. I agree, we should try to keep the tech pace up, be the world's nice guy and let someone else build the U.N.

I like the way we are looking ahead! It bodes well to have one eye on the long view...

Not much more to say, really, at this stage, having just played. i like the GA plan, that will be important... I also like the plan to keep France around and help her out, it would be SO much easier to capture the UN if it's on our own continent :)

Will check in this evening again...


Tal

Nice turns Tall. Anyone else thinking we might need a second worker & third settler factory?:lol:

We might want to keep out scouts out in the field searching for barb camps, which all this free space & all those scouts we can track them down pretty regularly for awhile.

Another thing is(keep in mind I haven't looked at the save since Tall played), but I'm sure we're getting close to our Military Upkeep limit. Since we're not planning an war in the forseeable future, we might want to(this is if we don't need any further warriors for MP/barb hunting) switch to spears(and a few horses) instead of warriors. Bet you never thought you'd hear me say that scouts.;) My reasoning is that this IIRC is vanilla, and we probably won't be useing swords unless we get sneak attacked. Spears/Horses have a much longer upgrade path, and take longer to build so our Military upkeep won't grow as fast.

What I wouldn't give for a Leader to rush the Pyramids right now.

@ Gengis: Good point on the upkeep limit. Workers are a factor in that as well. Do you think Hamburg could use a Barracks? Or shall we just rely on barbs to promote our regulars for a while?

Another thought on expansion: spears protecting worker teams that are building roads beyond our borders... cutting the time it takes to move settlers to city sites...

Edit: @ Tweed, are you with us?

scoutsout<--- looks around for mrTweed, hasn't seen him lately...:hmm:

@Tweed: Tal posted his turnlog yesterday at about 8:00am EDT (1200 UTC). We're now in that 'gray area' between 24 and 36 hours, and I'm a little concerned since it's been a few days since you posted to this thread.

Please post a "got it" with a time that you expect to be able to play, or please request a skip. I don't mind giving you 3 days to play your turns if you post your "got it" tonight. If you are busy with RL or whatever and need time (or can't play this round), that's fine. Let me know how much time you need, or if you need a skip.

Also, please post something once in a while so we know you're following the discussion. Participation is more important to me than prompt play; all of us have lives outside the game. An extra day here and there will not hurt us.

At approximately 8:00pm EDT tonight (Midnight UTC) 36 hours will have elapsed since Tal posted his log. I will wait that long before invoking auto-skip.

The skip dilemma -if he's too busy to access the forum, he won't be able to ask for a skip or a swap either... :ack:

But if you ran out of discussion topics and are itching to get the game going, skipping after 36 hours is ok.

Hopefully, mrTweed will come back soon ;)

@Karasu: Thanks for dropping by. If Tweed had posted something in the last few days I wouldn't be concerned, but it's been about a week since he's posted to the thread. Maybe his life got busy, maybe his computer got sick. Hopefully it's nothing more serious than that.

@Team: I won't auto-skip anybody who is actively participating in the discussion and wants to play. I don't like it when people crack the whip on the auto-skip clock, and that is not my intent here.

@Tweed: If you've been busy with Real Life and need a day or two to catch up on the thread, post something (anything) to the thread (to let us know you're still there) and we can wait for you to catch up.

Spears instead of warriors? After all my good "paper cutout" learning from the Training Day Game? :lol:
Seriously though, I agree with it because we have made our cities productive enough. Barracks might also be a good idea in one or two areas. I'm not that worried about bumping the Military support total yet. We are sending out Settlers and building towns at a decent clip, so that's another couple of unit's support every 6 turns or so.
With the size of this continent, I agree the road network is very important to stretch out. Are we thinking of protecting the road gangs with spears, and sending the warriors out on barb patrol? Or, should we build some more archers for that?

Well, i can safely say that going back to dial-up after you are used to broadband absolutely SUCKS!

However, I can also say that I finally got C3 installed and patched ( :mad: 10MB downloads on dial-up!) so I can safely play my turns :)

I doubt I will post so often though! It will more likely be just a daily post, since the PC is as slow as molasses and doing *anything* more complicated than opening Notepad takes half an hour...

Anyway, just thought I would check in. As I write this, there has been no sign of Mr Tweed for a week :sad: It may be necessary to skip him, at least for now, mainly so that we maintain a bit of momentum - there is a long way to go, and we need to get cracking!


Tal

"Got it". We'll keep Tweed's place the same in the rotation for the moment. Depending on where we are in the rotation when he gets back, maybe we'll adjust the order of play so he doesn't get too badly out of synch with the flow of the game.

Pre-flight check 1000 AD.

Citizens look basically happy. Barb Warning near Konigsberg. (I knew that from previous turnlog)
F3 Check Units: 27; Allowed: 32
Diplomacy Check - we seem to be at tech parity.

Turn 1 (975)
Move western scouting conscript west
Some worker moves around our future granary city...move a settler pair towards a site.
Put a citizen on mined grass from forest in Berlin for faster growth.
=====
IBT - A Barb Warrior appears E of Heidleburg
Frankfurt Warrior>worker
=====
Turn 2 (950)
Diplo Check - Russia now has Code of Laws, as does England.
Our worker has completed mining the BG south of Berlin. MM Citizen to that tile gets us our next settler a turn sooner.
move some workers to chop jungle/spice tile.
=====
IBT - Barb attacks our warrior near Heidleburg and dies flawlessly
Heidleburg Warrior>Worker
=====
Turn 3 (925)
Move some warriors near Konigsberg for barb control.
Found Cologne on the RCP9 site near Moscow, set queue to spear.
Change queue in Hamburg to Spear and MM. At 4spt, it should produce one every 5 turns.
I bump research to 30 percent to get Lit in 21. Still at +21gpt, and I want to get a little ahead of the pre-build.
=====
IBT - A barb warrior attacks on of our warriors, Cathy complains about a trespassing warrior I'm bringing home.
Berlin Settler>Settler
=====
Turn 4 (900)
Taking Science slider to 10% gets lit in 33. With Palace due in 32 turns in Konigsberg, and growth due in 2, I take it back to 30%.
Move the settler towards Konigsberg... position a warrior to escort
=====
Leipzig Worker>Worker
=====
Turn 5 (875)
A little MM in Munich gets us our Granary in 16 instead of 24 (Leipzig was using the irrigated plains/ivory tile)
Move some warriors in position to whack a few barb camps.
I buy CoL from England for 160g, and sell it to France for her WM and 20g
=====
IBT - A barb horse attacks on of our warriors and dies
Hamburg Spear>Spear
=====
Turn 7 (850)
Move settler pair toward floodplain site in NE
a warrior spots a barb camp 3E of incense hill.
Diplo check - Cathy has Literature!!!!
...and will sell it for WM and 70g?
France has it too, and will trade it for WM+80g...
I buy it from Russia for 85g
Set queue to math, AI tends to neglect Currency
=====
IBT - some barb galleys move
=====
Turn 8 (825)
Whack a barb camp
Move Settler Pair NE
=====
IBT-
Berlin Settler>Settler
=====
Turn 9 (800)
Settle Hannover on the floodplain site, set queue to worker
Connect Nuremberg
I cannot remember a better deal than buying a french worker for 25g
=====
IBT - The English DEMAND Literature. That irritates me when they do that. I give it up, because we're not in a position to fight (yet)
=====
Turn 10 (775)
all of the AI have Philosophy now, and they'll generally sell it, with initial offers of WM and ~80g. I think I'll wait until it's cheaper.

Move some workers around, move our settler pair generally toward the incense. IIRC, we actually had 2 sites that straddled the incense..

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/scout_sgotm2_775bc.jpg

IBT - The English DEMAND Literature. That irritates me when they do that. I give it up, because we're not in a position to fight (yet)


Good call, not only do we not want a war right now but it'll speed up their tech pace(1 less tech for her to self research & libraries all around).

I'd cave to all demands for awhile yet(possibly the entire game), we want them building libraries/markets/aqueducts/ect not tons of swordmen. We might even want to start selling techs as soon as we get them just so they won't demand them & we'll get something out of it.

[edit- Check it out! I finally got my salute smilie......:salute:]

Order of go:

"Q": Post comments/questions, or take it away if you feel ready.
Gengis: On Deck
Tal: Warming up
Tweed: We're holding this spot for you
Scout: Just played

Note to team: Be sure to check diplomacy every single turn. Put 1 gold on the table to eliminate all the obnoxious clicking each turn. Check for workers. I think we've been doing okay on this so far, because I noted that we already had a couple of slaves when I played that last round. Slave workers are great, because we don't have to pay maintenance on them. Any worker we can buy from the AI is a Good Thing with all the worker turns we're going to need to hack this empire out of the jungle.

Nice turns Scout. Good call on caving to Lizzy - even if she is at war with everyone else (wonder why?) we want no part of that!

Take it away, Q :)


Tal

P.S. It says on the save/score page that you only played 9 turns, Scout :mischief: :lol:

P.S. It says on the save/score page that you only played 9 turns, Scout :mischief: :lol:Dang...you're right - looking at my turnlog, there is no "turn 6". I must have been picking my nose or something, and forgot to use that finger to count a turn. [pimp]

@Q: I'm sure this will just break your heart, but do you mind taking off your shoes to count off an eleventh turn on your round to get us back on track?

Dang...you're right - looking at my turnlog, there is no "turn 6". I must have been picking my nose or something, and forgot to use that finger to count a turn. [pimp]

@Q: I'm sure this will just break your heart, but do you mind taking off your shoes to count off an eleventh turn on your round to get us back on track?

:lol:

Nose-picking?? :nono:

@Q - are you around?

Has anybody seen Q lately?

@ Gengis: Though we're pushing the 36 hour mark, whaddya say we give Q another 24 hours to post something before you pick it up. Sound fair? I think his last post was just a few hours before I posted my turnlog... hopefully he's just enjoying a time with family or something (it is memorial day weekend for us 'yanks'...)

@Q - if you're a little busy, just post a quick something to let us know you're around. I don't mind waiting an extra day or three for you to play your turns if you are simply busy and need to find a time to work the turns into your schedule...

Hey, this team must be under a curse or something...

Maybe it's those dastardly cheating fellas from the Staff Team that keep on kidnapping your players to sabotage your SGOTM :hmm: (and of course, until I am banned for abusing the new smileys, :joke: )

Hey, this team must be under a curse or something...

Maybe it's those dastardly cheating fellas from the Staff Team that keep on kidnapping your players to sabotage your SGOTM :mischief: (and of course, until I am banned for abusing the new smileys, [offtopic] )Just see to it I'm never given moderator privileges....or the above might be an example of what I do in original posts! :p

I'm not all that worried about Q, he's in the Navy, and might have drawn barnacle-scraping duty or something. He's been participating in discussion...

:sniper:

And then there were three...

Double post! : postcountfluff :

Been meaning to ask, Scout - where does your sig come from? Is it original? I'd love to know... (hope you don't mind me asking :) )

Been meaning to ask, Scout - where does your sig come from? Is it original? I'd love to know... (hope you don't mind me asking :) )I don't mind you asking... I should probably post this url as my homepage in my profile or something... It's from a poster that I first saw ... nevermind when or where I saw it. While many know the story of the 101st at Bastogne ("Nuts"), not as many know about another paratrooper story from the Battle of the Bulge. (http://517prct.org/documents/82nd_airborne_poster/82nd_airborne_poster.htm)

Fascinating - thanks for posting the link. I have to say that the paratrooper in the photo is one tough-looking soldier.


Tal

*whispers* He said sig, not avatar. :p

*whispers* He said sig, not avatar. :p:blush: Once again... I feel silly...the sig...

I believe that quote (or something very similar to it) it inscribed on a monument in Trafalgar Cemetery, at Gibraltar.

@Gengis :lol: After Scout had gone to all that trouble, I wasn't going to mention that! I was going to wait a day and then have a subtle follow-up question :) "Say, Scout, now I know about your avatar, how about that quote...?"

@Scout - thanks for the info - although I hadn't thought of it before, I did actually find the story of your avatar very interesting!


Tal

:lol: Well, I've gotten several PMs about my Avatar over the last several weeks, so when you asked about 'sig', I guess I mis-read the question.

@Gengis: I noted "Q" is up in GK2, and you posted a 'waiting' note in that thread. Do you want to give it another day here, or go ahead and pick it up?

We seem to have stalled...

:(

Not at all, actually I'm blowing off studying & playing as we speak. :D

edit- talk about being quick on the draw. Beat that!

Flight Check: First things first, I re-read the last 2 pages & save a copy of Tals dotmap for further reference. A whole lot has changed since we’ve gotten it. We can see the whole continent. :goodjob: putting those scouts to work guys, that helps out a ton with city planning. (for example: since I now know the only way to get to the north is through us or on the mountain chain, we can stick a warrior on the mountain pass to spot incoming settlers & concentrate on expanding SE first before going north.)

We’ve got some catching up to do…….
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ouch.JPG

Just to clear something up or if you didn’t know…….. Turn 10 (775)
all of the AI have Philosophy now, and they'll generally sell it, with initial offers of WM and ~80g. I think I'll wait until it's cheaper.
Tech price is based on: 1. if it’s monopoly price/how many civs have it already, 2. how many beakers you have into the tech(NOT turns, that’s important when someone busts your 40 turn gambit a couple turns early). (other things like Map size/difficulty level adjust them too, but not in game) Since the 3 civs we know already know Phil, and we’re not researching it, it will stay that same price until we meet someone or start on it.

If one of the Civs didn’t have Phil, I’d buy it then sell to them even at a loss. Since everyone(we know) already has it, I’m going to pass for awhile.

Military Report: 1 settler, 7 workers, 20 warriors, 1 archer & 1 spearman. (10 cities total) Not too shabby, we need settlers & workers desperate bad, and we’re good on warriors, I think I’ll start churning out other units now.

We’re got 1 galley in production, I’m going to make a couple other coastal cities a priority, so we can get some more in the water.

From Calogne/Hanovers/Nuremburg’s position it looks like we’re going with 9(.5) as our second ring. Good choice, with this much land we want to peacefully grab as much initial land as possible.

Change Hamburg from spearman to barracks. We’re militaristic, even though we don’t plan on going to war we should take advantage of the cheap barracks(but only in our unit pumps) in case war falls in our lap.

Most of our cities are building workers, fine by me. That will slow down growth in those jungle cities, but they desperately need a worker around there NOW.

Whip our galley in Nurembug, for a grand total of 1 wasted shield(1 pop loss, 19 turns left).

Increase research to 80%, Math due in 6 at +1gpt. (This is for a couple reasons, obviously I want to sell it cheap to everyone to increase the pace. And although we could have probably gotten it/currency first at the current pace, those will be good techs to trade away to new Civs we find. Plus we don’t really need cash right now, we’ve got the GL coming up & plenty of barbs to hunt for cash.)

While their cheap I go ahead & establish embassies with France & England……..(down to 37g).
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Paris.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/London.JPG
Looks like France will get the Pyramids, and London will get the Oracle. Not good.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Moscow1.JPG
That’s what we know of from Moscow on the outside. Talk about a great city for wonder building, flood plains & plains on a river, good thing they only have 1 resource hooked up & it will be awhile before they get their incense connected to there so they’ll need some entertainers to keep everyone happy. We’re going to have to investigate down the line to make sure we can get it in time, I hope it doesn’t come to sacking Moscow to keep them from building it, Russia doesn’t have enough cities to bounce back from us razing their capitol.

IT Leipzig: worker>worker
Frankfurt catches the plague, loses a pop.
Nuremburg: galley>galley
T0-(750bc) (I’m counting this as turn 0 to get us back even, hope noone minds.
Switch Frankfurt from worker to warrior, now that it doesn’t have the pop to produce a worker.
Kill off 2 barb camps. Cha ching, 50g!
Warriors spot 2 barb galleys to the north of where ours is headed, start saying your prayers brave sea men.

IT Hamburg: barracks>spear
Frankfurt: warrior>archer

T1-(730) Our galley moves 2 tiles N, and fortifies. Be strong, for the sake of the Empire!
Change Cologne from spearman to worker(both due in 2).

IT Hip hip HOORAY! Russia & England sign a peace treaty.
Even a bigger reason to cheer, our galley beats of both barbs only losing 1hp & promotes![dance]
Berlin: settler>settler

T2-(710) Galley spots a mushroom village on the tip of Iceland. We’ll send the next galley with a warrior to pop it, I’m not turning this one around.
Found Bremen(near incense) which starts on *drumroll* a worker.
Our turns go from 3 on math to 2, I turn it down to 30% and we can still get it in 2. Uh oh…….

As I expected, England & France have Math.
Buy Math from Joanie for our WM & 20g.
Sell our WM to Russia for 12g.
Sell our WM & Math to England for her WM, Phil, & 49g.
Then go around & re-trade WMs with France, Russia, and England(in that order). (It’s a little know fact that trading WMs (using the “care to trade maps?” option) gives you a bonus to attitude(IIRC its –1pt) if you’ve done it in the last 20 turns. No noticeable gain, but it’s better then 3g.)
Well our monopoly got busted, but we still made out pretty well regardless.;)

Start on Currency at 80%, due in 16 at +1gpt. (This ones like 50/50 towards it panning out. 16 turns is a long time, but the AI will probably go for Poly, Republic & Construction first. If the other continent doesn’t have it we stand a better shot, and will probably get it first. Either way we’ll want markets soon, and this will reduce our price for it.)

Take our only warrior out of Hamburg(unit pump) and send him towards Kongisburg, then take one of the MPs in Kongisburg out & send his as a settler escort that’s heading to found our next city & get that incense in our borders. (Kongisburg won’t grow for 5 so the extra MP isn’t needed till then. I’m trying to keep as many warriors in the field as possible to scout for barbs.)

IT Heindleburg: grows to 2, then produces a worker. Starts on a Cat. (after our Jungle cities produce the initial first worker, I’m going to start them on Cats. We’ll have 1 worker in the field around them with more on the way from our pump & when we’re going with the minimum military possible catapults are your best friend. Cheap, easy & don’t need a barracks).
Cologne: worker>Cat

T3-(690) Sell our WM around for 6g.
2 workers leave our pump & head east.

IT :sleep:

T4-(670) Warriors spot barbs ahoy!
Galley spots another GH & the end of the island. :(
Whip granary in Munich(aka settler pump #2, a very weak one, but it will still help).
Sell our WM around for 6g.

IT There’s barbs running round everywhere, and where there’s barbs……. There’s gold!
Leipzig: worker>worker
Munich: granary>settler

T5-(650) Galley circles around the tip of the island hoping for a spot to jump across.
Warrior kills barb horseman.
All our workers from the pump leave & head elsewhere.
Sell Wm around for 9g.

IT Warrior fends off barb, -1hp.
Berlin: settler>settler
Hamburg: spear>spear
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/paris2.JPG
London switches to Great Library. :wallbash:

I’ll stop here to get some suggestions, we have 30 turns left on it. I can maybe shave 5 or so turns off but she’s going to beat us by a mile unless we do something.

Sack London? Forget the GL? And on top that the Russians haven’t switched over yet so they my go Oracle, or they may go GL.

[edit- London had 16 turns left when I established an embassy, but it was about to grow so you figure at most we have 10 turns most likely 6-8.]

I'm more worried about the shield loss in Konigsberg than I am losing the GL. Have we got anything useful we can plow the shields into? We can build a regular Library in Konigsberg if nothing else...

...and there's no saying that we can't go to war in this variant... My only contentions on that count are that we need to be very careful how we fight; and we would be better served taking out 2 civs than 1. (So we have an odd number of UN votes.

...since we can't build the U.N., we would be wise to get as big as possible, to insure that we are in the vote. (And no, I don't think it's absolutely necessary to capture the U.N. to win this variant...)

We can stick a FP in there, but that's a terrible spot for our FP. We can stick a library in there, we keep the GL/Palace pre-build and either stick a market in there in about 10, or if Poly is researched shortly gamble on the Hanging Gardens(wouldn't be a bad wonder. 1 content citizen per city is nothing to sneeze at on this monster map). But it would be a gamble, 30 turns is stretching it.

We're just going to have to revamp our strategy if we go without the GL, everywhere will need a library shortly and we'll have to be the pace setter, instead of being at parity.

I agree with scouts that we'll be in the UN vote regardless, but if the Civ that builds it doesn't think he has a shot, their won't be a vote.

We can stick a FP in there, but that's a terrible spot for our FP. We can stick a library in there, we keep the GL/Palace pre-build and either stick a market in there in about 10, or if Poly is researched shortly gamble on the Hanging Gardens(wouldn't be a bad wonder. 1 content citizen per city is nothing to sneeze at on this monster map). But it would be a gamble, 30 turns is stretching it.

We're just going to have to revamp our strategy if we go without the GL, everywhere will need a library shortly and we'll have to be the pace setter, instead of being at parity.

I agree with scouts that we'll be in the UN vote regardless, but if the Civ that builds it doesn't think he has a shot, their won't be a vote.

Shucks, that was unlucky... :cry: Like you say, the FP would be terrible in Konigsberg, a real waste...

So. My choice would be the Gardens, if it's possible, although I realise it's a moderate gamble. A library would be my second choice.

Without the GL... Well, for me, it has its pro's and cons. On the plus side, I prefer to be the pace-setter, so it will be familiar territory for me, although this is one step up in difficulty, I admit. On the negative, the temptation to capture it will be great :) And the waste of shields is a real bugger unless we sort it out... If we do end up going to war on our continent, at least we know that it will capture us two wonders, and the likely survivor, France, has been at war with at least one of the civs we'll be fighting, so the diplomatic fallout might not be as bad as it could be.

On a more immediate note, i think there is very little we can do to prevent the building of the GL.

In which case, I suppose we should at least ask ourselves these two questions...

1) Can we capture it in time for it to be useful?

2) Would a war to capture the GL be worth more (if successful) than the expenditure of that war machine building energy on libraries, settlers and infrastructure?


My gut feel would be 1) Yes and 2) Almost certainly not

How about you guys?

Tal


P.S. As an aside, Gengis, presuming you finish your turns tomorrow (Thursday), I will have to wait until Sunday night GMT to play a next set, as I have guests up Fri/Sat and an important Cup Match on Sunday...

So... In the interests of catching up around 1000 years that we have lost on most all the other teams, I am happy to participate in discussion but watch while you guys (Scout and GK) do a double-header, back-to-back turns. Unless Q gets back online, of course.

Rest assured you are not losing another team member! It just so happens my turns are likely to fall on three consecutive bad days for me... :rolleyes:

@Tal: as they say in Italy... "mille grazie" for telling us of your plans. I was thinking of giving Tweed 48 hours to show up again... I'll discuss it with GK and we'll figure it out. Maybe we can re-shuffle thing so that you can enjoy a round after your guests leave...

I was leaning towards pretty much what Tal said as well, go for the Gardens & worst case senario we still end up with a REALLY expensive Market. The risk is worth the reward.

I also pretty much agree with his second part, we "could" take it. But it would mean throwing expansion & infrastructure out the window & putting up barracks everywhere which will cramp our research.

We're just going to have to alter our game plan a bit, finishing up now.

T6-(630) Sell our WM around. MM cities a bit.
Change Konigsburg to Oracle.

[IT-[/b] Russia cascades to GL as well. Come on Moscow!
Sell WM around.
Galley starts off into the Ocean.

T7-(610) Sell WM around.
Galley starts off into the Ocean.

[IT-[/b] Hannover: grows & produces worker. Starts on galley.
Our galley sinks. :suicide:

T8-(590) Found Stuttgart, starts on cat.
Bremen switched to Lib, to get incense in our borders.
Lose a warrior attacking a barb camp.
Take out a different barb camp.

[IT-[/b] French start the GL.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Oracle.JPG

T9-(570) Found Bonn, starts on a library.
Sell WM around.

[IT-[/b] Berlin: settler>setter
Leipzig: worker>worker

T10-(550) Rush galley in Nuremburg. That’s going to be the last one we can rush for awhile. I’d take the warrior in Nuremburg & pop those two island villiges, we might get lucky.
Take out a barb camp.
Poly is on the table, Joanie(cheapest) wants WM & 200g. We have currency due in 4 so I’d wait & hope Lizzy picks it up first so we can trade with her, then get France & Russia’s treasury.

*End o turn report* Not much, founded a couple cities, got a couple techs. There’s a settler headed for our last RCP 5 site.

We've got to pick where we want our last couple 9 sites to the South, then those have to be a priority if we want to get them.

We also have to decide where we want the FP & how we want to arrange rings around it. We can either go with the NW or SE, here’s maps of both.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/NW.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SE.JPG

Good luck!

Oh yea, I was thinking that once we got our last couple 9 sites down, then our FP ring, we can pretty much stop expanding. Leave the the rest for the AI to take, that will keep them off our backs for a while & make them have more income(aka faster research) at the same time.

edit- Hopefully I got it done in time for you to be able to pick up, either way thanks for the heads up!

Well, actually I think I can find time to play my turns this afternoon - I know that won't leave us much room for discussion, but I hope that I have a handle on things as we are...

Having said that, as well as a FP site (and due to the amount of jungle in the SE, and the nice river area in the NW, I recommend the latter) we just need to decide the radius of our third ring... RCP12 or 13? Dotmap, anyone? :D

Tal

Oh yea, I was thinking that once we got our last couple 9 sites down, then our FP ring, we can pretty much stop expanding. :rotfl:

@Gengis: Care to share some thoughts on a third ring and/or FP w/ possible rings? I'd like to look at an FP in the north... I think there's just enough room up there for a smaller secondary core. Thoughts on settling priorities for Tal?

@Tal: No objection if you want to pick it up this afternoon... I'll take another look on my lunch hour and see if I can offer a useful suggestion or 2...

priorities: I'd get those last couple of 9 sites towards Russia down first. We're actually going to need to set up another unit factory shortly, I was running out of escorts, but want to leave all our scouts in the field for hunting.

As to the FP, I'm leaning towards the north as well. More defensible, & will leave the east for russia/france. I havn't figured out a good FP spot/ ring location yet, we'll draw one up once we have those 9 sites settled in that direction. That will give us a better idea of what we're working with.

Quick point on cities...

See the attached dotmap. At the moment, there is a settler pair heading towards the RCP5 site near Leipzig, presumably to the yellow dot on my new map.

I have come to have reservations about this, even though I originally suggested it in one of my own maps :)

I think that the two red sites on my new map are better, as it allows us to use all four of the floodplain tiles available, whereas yellow misses out the 3 floodplain sites outlined in pink...

RCP9 sites (green) also fail to use these floodplain tiles, when combined with yellow.

Therefore, I humbly suggest we use the red sites :cool:


Tal

Looks good, I suggest going with the southern one first. Leaving the northern one out for a while, and concentrating on expansion south(those 2/3 other 9 sites). We can't settle that city next to Leipzig, without first abandoning Leipzig, and abandoning Leipzig means losing our granary & about 20 turns before it can be replaced.

I'm pretty sure that the Yellow site has fresh water, and as that site and Munich mature, they'll be good cities... though we might want to pump Leipzig for a settler and use that settler to settle that particular site.

The northerly red site is a nice looking spot, but it crowds Munich a little. Since these northerly cities are some of the very few we have that are nicely developed at the moment, I'd rather not crowd them. They'll be real powerhouses later in the game.

Though the southerly red site looks like it will claim a nice chunk of territory, it's a little short on food, and will require many worker turns to get productive. Ordinarily this wouldn't bother me... but we have so many cities that are many worker turns from being productive...

Between the green sites, I'm leaning slightly towards the westerly of the two... Gengis? What do you think?

OK, for now, I'm sticking to the original plan - access to fresh water, and immediate use of space points to the yellow site. We can always do the lower red site later, and keep Leipzig for a long long time anyway.

Playing now, wish me luck!

Pre-flight - brace myself for the GL disappointment, and cross fingers for monarchy...

IBT - Warrior beats off barb horseman

Turn 1 - 530 BC

Galley moves off with warrior from N'burg, another galley on the way. Worker stuff, including mine building and forest clearing... Trade WM with France, again...

IBT - zip

Turn 2 - 510 BC

Found Salzburg, set it building catapult. Emphasise shields in Bremen, to get incense quicker.

IBT - fend off 2 barbarians

Turn 3 - 490 BC

Disperse a barb camp :ar15: Disperse another one [pimp] Chop forest to hurry library in Bremen... Trade maps to France and England, Russia not interested... :confused:

Hut produces a friendly horseman! He boards galley to come back to main continent - don't want him stuck here forever...

IBT - Joan wants an alliance vs Lizzy - the war must be back on! :( i agree to an ROP just to maintain a positive relationship, but confess I was just stabbing in the dark here... Should I have just said "Not a chance"?

Currency researched - prepare for trading!

Turn 4 - 470 BC

Miscellaneous movement... Now a dilemma. Lizzy is at war with France, so no learning or money, and no way of her getting Poly... Grr! If she gets it from the GL, she may get Currency too... So, I go ahead and trade it for Poly with France. No point in delaying, really :undecide: (Note - can we discuss this later?) get 95g, WM and Poly from France, 215g and WM from Russia. Decide to give it to Lizzy, as she will get it soon enough, we can use the diplo boost, and she is likely to get the GL first anyway...

IBT - Settler built in Munich, start a spearman, as we need escorts.

Turn 5 - 450 BC

HUGE uprising spotted in the SE... :eek: And another in the NW! :eek: Last turn these both had one warrior... Now they have the Golden Horde...

I am pausing here for suggestions...

Have a look and tell me what you guys think.

Dark Blue: Proposed FP site
Light Blue: FP RCP4
Green: FP RCP7

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM_scout_NWFPRCP.jpg

NOTE TO MODS!

I am uploading the save after 5 turns in order to get some input from my team... I *may* not be able to continue playing later on this evening, so uploading it now means that Scout can have my last 5 turns if this is necessary and I don't cause any further delays :)


Tal

@Scout - I like that dotmap, nice work... Just one question (I am no expert on FP placement, but what would happen to N'burg if it is RCP9 and FRCP7?)

Tal

Fine, Tallanas. No problems with that. :)

@Scout - I like that dotmap, nice work... Just one question (I am no expert on FP placement, but what would happen to N'burg if it is RCP9 and FRCP7?)I have no idea, but it will be fun to see! :crazyeye:

@Karasu: :wavey:

A friendly horseman. :eek: That's odd, very cool but odd. You give him a *****en name to honor our first mobile unit?

About your trade(since you asked for comments): What I would have done is traded currency to Russia first(IIRC she has close to 1k gold) for as much gold as we could get. Since it was a Monopoly sell it to the person you can get the most from. Then I would have done the same to France(all the gold I could get). Last I would have sold it to England for Poly, even if I had to throw in a bit of change.

Dotmap looks good, I'd ditch the green by Leipzig though will put additional strain on an area that's already going to be overcrowded.

A friendly horseman. :eek: That's odd, very cool but odd. You give him a *****en name to honor our first mobile unit?

About your trade(since you asked for comments): What I would have done is traded currency to Russia first(IIRC she has close to 1k gold) for as much gold as we could get. Since it was a Monopoly sell it to the person you can get the most from. Then I would have done the same to France(all the gold I could get). Last I would have sold it to England for Poly, even if I had to throw in a bit of change.

Dotmap looks good, I'd ditch the green by Leipzig though will put additional strain on an area that's already going to be overcrowded.

First up, the trade - yes, it would make more sense to do it the way you outlined... That information is duly filed away, lesson learned.

The green city near Leipzig can be founded once we are ready to disband Leipzig to give the other two cities there more room - those 3 will fit nicely together (I agree that with the 3 cities *and* Leipzig, people would be treading on each others' toes a lot)...

Hmm, the horseman! How about Horseman of the Apocalypse? Or is that slightly too much for a unit with an attack rating of 2? :lol:


I am afraid my time ran out this afternoon, and I am now away from home again. The PC here died when I tried to play 1.29, although it handles vanilla ok... Ah well, it's just not to be, I guess! Therefore, I request that one of you guys play my last 5 turns. I know I'm shirking, but 5 turns is better than none, right?? :)

I will keep checking up on the discussion over the weekend - my guests can take care of themselves for a minute or two :mischief:


Tal

First up, the trade - yes, it would make more sense to do it the way you outlined... That information is duly filed away, lesson learned.
No worries, we still profited quite a bit. And it was a good move gifting Currency to Lizzy.
If at any point my suggestions come off condisending, or anything like that just slap me with a fish. I'm not trying to turn this into a TDG, just makeing sure a good time is had by all & we all walk away having learned something. Besides, we can't do that well, I have another wooden spoon to win!

The green city near Leipzig can be founded once we are ready to disband Leipzig to give the other two cities there more room - those 3 will fit nicely together (I agree that with the 3 cities *and* Leipzig, people would be treading on each others' toes a lot)...
It's still crowded without Leipzig, especially compared to anywhere else we've set up. For example: Green & Munich will share 6 squares, Green & Numeburg share 3(Nume & Munich are already sharing 2), and Green & blue share 6.
But all this is insignificant when compaired to one thing....... the green city is 7.5 tiles from our capitol.


Hmm, the horseman! How about Horseman of the Apocalypse? Or is that slightly too much for a unit with an attack rating of 2? :lol:

I am afraid my time ran out this afternoon, and I am now away from home again. The PC here died when I tried to play 1.29, although it handles vanilla ok... Ah well, it's just not to be, I guess! Therefore, I request that one of you guys play my last 5 turns. I know I'm shirking, but 5 turns is better than none, right?? :)

I will keep checking up on the discussion over the weekend - my guests can take care of themselves for a minute or two :mischief:

Tal

Sounds great! I couldn't come up with a better name for the first horseman I've ever popped from a hut.:D

No big deal, better to get 5 in before company came then none at all.

And btw, I'm going to need to get a definition for shirking.;)

Okay - this is a "got it", though it will probably be pretty late before I get to this. I've got a few PMs to look over from an unrelated matter, 5 turns to play in a late industrial era slugfest, and there's something else I need to do...

...Oh yeah - I need to take off my shoes so I can count past ten! :crazyeye:

@Gengis: Consider "green" after Leipzig is abandonded...

Guess we crossposted, and mine was missing a quote part. Fixed now to be more readable.

No worries, we still profited quite a bit. And it was a good move gifting Currency to Lizzy.
If at any point my suggestions come off condisending, or anything like that just slap me with a fish. I'm not trying to turn this into a TDG, just makeing sure a good time is had by all & we all walk away having learned something. Besides, we can't do that well, I have another wooden spoon to win!

I didn't think for a minute that it was patronising :) Just sound advice, and I kicked myself for not having thought it through enough to get there myself! So the halibut remains on standby for now :lol: I'll bring it out if we get saddled with the spoon!


But all this is insignificant when compaired to one thing....... the green city is 7.5 tiles from our capitol.

Ok, I didn't spot that :p Yep, that would rather shaft our RCP9 ring...


And btw, I'm going to need to get a definition for shirking.;)

Slacking, skiving, shirking - all good English slang for not pulling your weight! As in "Stop shirking and get working!"


Tal

/shirk on

450 BC - In Flight Check/Turn 0?

The raging hordes of barbarians tell me that at least 2 civs are in the middle ages.

Diplo check:
Catherine is in the Middle Ages, and will sell us construction for 370g+WM
Joanie is in the middle ages, and will sell us construction for 340g+WM
England is down Polytheism.
(Note to Tal: the land grab phase is not a good time to sign a RoP...)

Buy Construction off Catherine for WM+330g, and we learn Monotheism, just like that.
Buy a worker off France for 25g
Gift Poly to England.
Sell Monotheism to Joanie for WM+480g

Do a little scouting with our galley
...a settler auto moves...
...move another settler...
=====
IBT - Barb horses kill all of our scouting warriors.
Hamburg Spear>Spear | Frankfurt Archer>Spear
Change Nuremberg to Walls for the time being... with 2 dozen Barb horses around, they could easily empty our treasury.
=====
Turn 1 (430)
Continue recall of scouting warriors.

=====
IBT - lots of Barb horse movement in from the north. I'm afraid our treasury may get emptied here shortly.
=====
Turn 2 (410)
Recalling scouting warriors...
moving settlers, a few worker moves.
Our valiant conscript horse whacks one barb horse, no promote, forts on mountain.
=====
IBT
Russia and France sign MA v. England
Incredible Barb horse hordes... this sucks.
Berlin Settler>Settler
China completes the colossus
=====
Turn 3 (390)
recall what little is still out there...
Give Lizzy 200g ...rather let her have it than the barbs, and hope to get it back selling construction
Move a settler under an elite warrior on a mountain. Doubt it'll hold
=====
IBT - the barb horses kill a settler pair, a huge stack of Barb horses arrive outside Nuremberg.
Nuremberg Walls>Spear
London Completes the Great Library
Delhi Completes the Great Wall
=====
Turn 4 (370)
Change Leipzig to Spear and whip it.
A spear that was created a few turns ago arrived in Nuremberg last turn, and fortifies this turn with 19 Barbarian horsemen outside Nuremberg. I can't even remember what the walls bonus is against Barbs... or if there is an additional bonus for walls against barbs... fingers crossed.
=====
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2_Scout_150BC_BARBS.jpg

IBT - Our spears in Nuremberg are promoted to Elite, but are eventually worn down. The barbs hit the city 4 times, destroying the walls, killing a citizen, and carrying off 34g, 32g, 29g.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2_Scout_150BC_DAMNBARB.jpg

Leipzig Spear>Spear
Munich Spear>Spear
=====
Turn 5 (350)
Move a spear into Nuremberg.
some worker moves...
found Dortmund in the jungle.
=====
IBT - 8 Barb horsemen advance on Salzburg. It's pop 1, spear next turn (that'll change) and there isn't much of a way to reinforce it. A barb horse pillages improvements outside Nuremberg, Barb horses cut our spear to 2hp.
=====
Turn 6 (330)
Force a worker to stop roading to evacuate.
Hide a settler in Munich and hope for the best.
=====
IBT - our wounded spear is only able to hold off one barb horse. The second kills it flawlessly. We lose 25g, 23g, in Nuremberg. another sacks 20g, 18g.
Salzburg, our shields in the spear are lost, 22g, 19g, 17g, 15g, 14g, 14g, 13g,
Berlin Settler>Spear | Hamburg Spear>Spear | Bremen Library>Spear
=====
Turn 7 (310)
There is not much I can to but soak up these barbarian attacks. I put a warrior in Salzburg, hoping he'll hold off 2 barb horses.
=====
IBT - Our Spear in Leipzig holds off 4 barb horses. Nuremberg is sacked again at a cost of 12g, 11g.
A barb galley redlines our scouting galley. Dangit.
Heidleburg Spear>Worker
Cologne Spear>Library
=====
Turn 8 (290)
Move some settlers outward. a few worker moves, take a warrior out of Munich and send him to Nuremberg to take a whack at an approaching barb warrior.
=====
IBT - a lone barb warrior advances on Nuremberg.
=====
Turn 9 (270)
Whack the barb warrior at Nuremberg, promoting a warrior.
Switch some cities to expansion builds
England has Republic
=====
IBT - 2 barb horses appear in the hills. A russian archer appears south of Cologne
Leipzig worker>worker
=====
Turn 10 (250)
Some worker moves, some settler moves
Drop a spear in dortmund
=====
IBT - a warrior forted on a mountain fends off 2 barb horses.
More barb horses appear from the north.
Berlin Settler>Settler
Hamburg Spear>spear
Frankfurt Spear>Worker
=====
Turn 11 (230)
founded Brandendburg on a NE RCP9 site
popped some barbs from a goody hut on the island to the NE
=====
IBT
More barb action, and we lose a galley.
====
Turn 12 (210)
some worker moves.. take science all the way down to 20%.
====
IBT - We discover Monarchy
Check what is the big picture, click on Konigsberg, and "waste" a bunch of shields on Hanging Gardens.
Konigsberg Hanging Gardens>Market
Heidleburg Worker>Library
Stuttgart Spear>Worker

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2_Scout_150BC_HG.jpg

=====
Turn 13 (190)
Trade Monarchy to Russia for WM+230g+Republic
Trade Monarchy to France for WM+37g, to England for WM+67g
====
IBT a barb horse attacks a warrior on a mountain.
Bremen Spear>Court
Bonn Library>Worker
=====
Turn 14 (170)
move some workers onto incence hill. That Hanging Gardens should kick off some WLTKD soon...
some worker moves.. pushing northward.
=====
IBT - this is really getting old... a couple of Barb horses appear out of the fog and kill a settler that was escorted by an archer.
Berlin Settler>Settler
Hamburg Warrior>Warrior (time to do the Warrior-Sword Upgrade thing)
Frankfurt worker>Rax
Munich Spear>Settler
=====
Turn 15 (150)
move a few workers, send a settler pair NW instead of N, to replace the settler pair I had headed towards a potential FP Site.

Those Barb horsemen were brutal, but I think the worst is over with.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM2_Scout_150BC_WORLD.jpg

After Action Review:

The good: We got a couple more towns settled.
The bad: We got a wonder that is a happiness crutch. It'll make our score look good in the short term, but it's going to kick our butts when steam power arrives.
The ugly: Lost 2 settlers to barb horses. That hurt worse than the gold.

I've got a settler pair headed towards the center of the northern lands... which I propose we call the badlands.

Lots of wars to the south, which should buy us some time to do some settling and re-build our military.

I've got some workers poised over the Iron. I think we need to upgrade every warrior we've got, and send the regulars out to play whack-a-barb.

Special Bulletin to follow.

*****Special Bulletin*****

We've reached a critical juncture in this game, in more ways than one. I propose to do something a little different.

On the player side, we haven't heard from two of our teammates in some time. I would like to give them a chance to come back and enjoy the game with us. I may try the e-mail thing later on. On the game side, we're lagging behind in terms of the number of turns played. Within the game, we now have access to 2 forms of government. Though I think it's a little early to switch, I don't want to delay that change unnecessarily.

Having said all that, here is what I propose - re-initiating the order of go, as follows:

I would like Gengis to take another 20 turns. If it seems appropriate to revolt, he may do so according to his best judgement. Playing 20 turns should allow him some quality play on either side of the revolt. This will also catch us up a little bit.

After Gengis' 20, and a little discussion, Tal can play 10. From that point, we will freeze the game until next Friday (one week from today) to allow Q and Tweed to come back to the game, catch up, and get involved.

@ Gengis, Tal, what do you guys think?

Ok, lots to comment on there, Scout... First of all, good job on doing the 15, that really helped me out.

(Note to Tal: the land grab phase is not a good time to sign a RoP...)

:blush: The only thing I can say in my defence is that I thought it was extememly unlikely that in 20 turns, when France was at war with England already, we would see any French units in our territory. However, I take your point... :wallbash:

The barbarians. With hindsight we should maybe have tried to anticipate the coming of the MA, but I think you did as good a job as you could, considering the truly vast hordes that appeared. I would have to check the save to see exactly what was going on in the SE - hopefully that stack made a beeline for Russia, and isn't currently hacking through the jungle towards us!

The HG - a nice benefit in the mid-term, but I appreciate your warning about steam power. Let's plan accordingly - marketplaces, and as many luxuries as possible. From memory, the only luxury resource we don't have is located in the SE (though I can't remember what it is... silks?), through all that jungle, nearer Russia, and in the opposite direction to the one we have decided (correctly) to expand in. Maybe later we will be able to hook it up, or initiate trade with France for some furs...

The wars - I don't know if it's just me, but I haven't really noticed the in-fighting drastically affect the tech pace... And like you say, the longer they are all focussed on the south of the continent, the better for us.

Having said all that, here is what I propose - re-initiating the order of go, as follows:

I would like Gengis to take another 20 turns. If it seems appropriate to revolt, he may do so according to his best judgement. Playing 20 turns should allow him some quality play on either side of the revolt. This will also catch us up a little bit.

After Gengis' 20, and a little discussion, Tal can play 10. From that point, we will freeze the game until next Friday (one week from today) to allow Q and Tweed to come back to the game, catch up, and get involved.

@ Gengis, Tal, what do you guys think?

Sounds like a good plan. We could do with some continuity, and 35 consecutive turns from our top two seems like a nice way of catching up on some turns as well as in-game progress.

Good job, Scout


Tal

Bah, I've been naughty! I read the spoiler thread without reading that I wasn't allowed to do so until Scout posted our summary... :blush: I thought MA plus 3 contacts was the requirement...

Hopefully I will be let off with :spank: rather than :hammer:


Tal

Tal: I view the wars as the single biggest thing in our favor on the land grab. The wars aren't slowing down the tech pace because we've stepped in and helped the "weak sister".

On the barbarians: Hindsight is always 20/20. Based on the level of Barb activity we saw to this point, there was nothing at all to indicate that the raging hordes would be that bad. I strongly suspect that this was a tweak on the part of Mad-Bax... or whoever created the map for GOTM8.

Sorry you got spanked for reading the spoiler... There are always prerequisites for surfing them, but I didn't realize a summary post from me was one of them. I'll surf over and find the thread...

Didn't actually get told off, I'm just copping to my crime before it's noticed... :D Didn't want the mods thinking that my surfing that thread was in any way underhand or devious!

Well, our "summary" (such as it is) has been posted, so surf away! And I don't think it'll be any big deal. You surfed after we hit the middle ages, and we've had the requisite contacts for some time now.

As to the HG, I don't think it will really be a problem come Steam. At that point we'll have markets everywhere & when we're selling techs cheap we can always get them to throw in a lux or two.

Just letting you guys know: without even glancing at the save, I fully intend to revolt to Republic during my turns. Best to get it out of the way now, the decreased corruption will be neccessary in building our FP(since we won't be lucking out in a Leader to rush the FP), and with our low military/high city count Republic is the perfect government....... we just have to get the population up in all our cities.

I'm not a big fan of putting the game on hold a week. Now that we're rolling I want the trend to continue, but you're the bossman. And I do want to hear from Tweed & qm again.

Got it, any other suggestions before I start?

@ Gengis: I thought you'd want to go ahead and revolt. I was tempted to, but with the barbs and such still creating problems (and losing 2 settlers) I wanted to bounce back just a little bit under despotism.

No further suggestions for your turns. Take 20.

On "putting the game on hold for a week" - the clock started ticking yesterday. Under a standard 24-48 rotation, we'd only get 30-40 turns in over the next week anyway, and that's if everybody played promptly. If you play 20, and Tal plays another 10 in the next couple of days, we can afford to wait a few days to see if the others come back. I won't keep it on hold past next Friday.

I have e-mailed Tweed, "Q's" e-mail function is disabled on his profile. Karasu is aware of this, and well...we'll cross bridges as we come to them, whether or not those guys come back.

Sounds good. I'll get it played tonight..... I think I'm still up in a SG somewhere.:rolleyes:

Gengis? Are you done with finals yet? :bump:

I'll get it played tonight. Is there an echo in here?

Sorry guys, rough couple day, I'll bang it out shortly.

Good deal... here's where we are:

Gengis: "got it"
Tallanas: On Deck
Tweed: MIA (Please post if you're coming back)
Scout: Scratching his head
qm1pooh: MIA (Please post if you're coming back)

Ok. Tweed and qm1pooh have been (temporarily, I hope) removed from the roster.
I will add them back if they come back and the team is happy with their resuming play.

@Karasu: Thank you.

Gengis, Tallanas: If either of you know of someone you'd like to invite to join us, shoot me a PM. (GK: anybody in the TDG?)

Flight Check- Military report: 2 settlers, 17 workers(+4 slaves), 15 warriors, 1 archer, & 11 spears. (16 cities). Pretty good, we need more warriors for barb hunting, but the jungle is seriously slowing us down.

We have 46 units, and 41 citizens total. Basically switching now will cost us about 5gpt, but I want to go ahead & get it over with.

Russia & France are back at war with England.:(

Hehe, France doesn’t have Republic. Since I fear France might have the ability to do some damage to England(and London is now a border city, I don’t want the GL to fall into Joanie’s hands), I’m going to wait till she comes out of Anarchy, then gift her Republic & hope she will go for it(which she most likely will). Those extra turns of Anarchy might slow down the pace a bit, but it will give England a much needed break.

Revolt….. and draw 8 turns of Anarchy!:wallbash:
Go around & MM all our cities for growth.

Change Dortmund from spear to warrior.

T1(130)- Dortmund: warrior>library
Switch Seizburg & Brandenburg to warriors(from spears).
Wake up units in interior cities & send them to the outsides to scout/protect. (Republic doesn’t have any MPs).

IT- Spear guarding settler fends off barb attack. Thank god!
Salzburg: warrior>spear

T2(110)- France hits Monarchy, sell Joanie Republic for the low low price of WM & 7g.

IT- Spear in Brandonberg fends off barb attack, -3hp.

T3(90)- Incense hooked up.
Joanie decided against revolting. Shock, is the AI actually acting intelligently? Probably just dumb luck.

T4(70)- In a pretty cool coincidence I found New Berlin, which just happens to be our FP city.

T5(50)- Found New Leipzig.
I’m forced to stop the growth in Berlin to keep it from rioting in 2 turn.

IT- Warrior & Spear both flawlessly fend off barb horsemen.

T6(30)- Warrior kills barb, is redlined but then promotes to veteran. Nets us 25g.
Joanie has Fuedalism.

IT- Workers finish roading our Iron Mtn.
French start Sun Tzu’s.

T7(10 BC)- Our advisors bring great news, we’ll officially be a Republic next turn!

IT8(10 AD)- Boo yea! About fricken time!
Warrior takes out horseman, 25 more gold.
MM all our cities out of growth & towards our new economy.

Joanie won’t sell Fued yet, and still has a Monopoly on it. Us switch off Fuedalism will take away all the beakers we have stored on it, therefore increasing our price. Oh well, I switch from Fuedalsim to Theo(60% due in 13 at +1gpt). Hopefully we can snag that in time to do some Tech/Tech trading.

Cash rush a worker in Leipzig for 16g.

IT- France & England sign peace treaty.
Warrior fends off barb, -1hp.

Leipzig: worker>worker (we’re fastly approaching time to abandon this city)

T9(30)- Rush settlers in Berlin & Munich for 150g. (both cities were maxed out in pop and would riot unless growth was checked).
Rush galleys in Hanover & Numemburg for obvious reasons.
Sell our WM to Joanie for hers & 24g.
Sell our WM to Cathy for hers & 26g.
Sell our Wm to Lizzy for hers & 4g.

IT- Berlin: settler>settler
Hamburg: warrior>spear
Munich: settler>settler
Nuremburg: galley>galley
Hannover: galley>galley

T10(50)- Warrior kills barb, -1hp & pockets 25g.
Disband our warrior trapped on the island.
Switch Munich from settler to worker factory. Berlin is enough to snag all the rest of the land we want now that the rush is over. Plus there’s A LOT of work to be done.
Change Berlin from settler to library. (only takes 4 turns & will help out a lot while we’re finishing up settling.
Switch Kongisburg from Market to library.

IT- Kongisburg: library>market

T11(70)- Send some warriors back to barracks to be upgraded.
Disband a couple warriors.
Rush 2 galleys for 200g. (yea, that’s my game plan till we’re broke or have contacts. We need to meet the other Civs.)

IT- Nuremburg: galley>galley
Hanover: galley>galley

T12(90)- Archer takes out a barb, promotes & picks up 25g.
Warrior is redlined, but kills barb. 25 more in the bank.

IT- Spot 3 barb galleys heading for one of ours. Time to take to the high seas.
Leipzig: worker>worker
Munich: worker>worker

T13(110)- Rush a galley, a couple set out into the unforgiving seas.

IT- Berlin: library>settler
Nuremburg: galley>galley
We lose a galley.

T14(130)- [dance] Galley spots a great border & moves into Japanese border! (too bad it’s in the sea still so it might sink.)
Hopefully this isn’t an indication of things on the whole island, he’s down Currency, Monarchy & Republic.
Trade Toku our WM & Republic for Contact with Indians/Chinese, his WM, & 11g. (I wouldn’t even give up anything for contact but he needs out of Despot bad, and I don’t want to risk our galley sinking & us not getting those contacts.)

India & Mao are both down Currency & don’t have much money.
Sell Mao Currency for WM & 43g.
Sell India Currency for WM & 7g.
Sell Toku Currency for WM & 31g.

Switch Nuremburg & Hannover off galleys. Disband the rest.
Kill a barb, 25 gold.

I’m not a big fan of us being the tech pace setter here. As soon as we get Theo, I’m introducing all our neighbors.
Use our new found gold to open some Embassies:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Delhi1.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Beijing.JPG
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Kyoto.JPG
At least they’re not at war with each other.

IT- Hamburg: Spear>spear
Frankfurt: barracks>library
Our galley next to Japan is lost.:lol:

T15(150)- Bestow the gift of Monotheism apon the New World. Hey there’s even Indians to give Polio blankets to, imagine that!

IT- Vet warrior fends off barb, & promotes to Elite.
Munich: worker>worker
Stuttgart: worker>library

T16(170)- Elite warrior takes out a barb, 25 more gold.
Found New Hamberg(in the north) & New Kongisburg(to the SW, our last 9RCP city). Surprise surprise, both start on libraries.
Spot 4 French Swords & a horseman heading west, uh oh!
Change New Kongisburg to walls, which will be rushed if they continue west. I’ve got a couple units headed there as well but I don’t think they’ll get there in time.

IT- They keep heading west, war might be inevitable.
Berlin: settler>settler
Leipzig: worker>settler (after it is produced Leipzig can be abandoned, it’s getting crowded over there)
Heidleburg: library>catapult

T17(190)- Rush walls in New Kongisburg for 36g.
Sell our WM around for spare about 50g, this is a fraction of it’s worth now that we have everything explored, but I need gold bad, next turn we would have gone in the red. Turning research down isn’t an option cause my plan is to get Theo before Joanie attacks, and trade for Fued plus gift her a bit of gpt. Hopefully that will be enough to get her off our ass.

IT- Spear fends off barb horse, -2hp.
Hanover riots. Yea, yea I’ll stop making jokes now Scout.
New Kong: walls>catapult

T18(210)- Not very much.

IT- French pig gets to barb camp 1 turn before me.
We learn Theology! Start on PP with a single scientist. (I’m turning off research for 2 turns so we’ll have the cash to rush a courthouse in our FP location, then we can start on the FP.)
Hamburg: Spear>Spear

T19(230)- French swords have kind of veered north, whether that means they’re not attacking us or they just want to go for our undefended cities to the north I don’t know.
Trade Joan Theo for Fued & 62g, but I throw in 4 gpt just because.
Sell Fuedalism around for pocket change, then gift everyone up to parity.

IT- Kongisburg: market>catapult
Munich: worker>catapult (needs a chance to regrow a bit)
Calogne: library>drumroll please….. catapult
Salzburg: library>I don’t even have to type it anymore

T20(250)- Russians start Sun’s, France starts Sistine.
And in the best news I’ve seen all day… France has Chivalry.:wallbash:

Report & pictures coming up.

Contact! Sweet!

**End o’ Turn Report**
Military Report: (20 cities) 25 worker(+4slaves), 12 warriors, 1 archer, 13 spears, & 1 sword. Our military is Weak- France, Japan, & China; Average- Russia & India; Strong- England.
Economy: We’re down Chiv to France, and at parity with everyone else(or rather they’re now at parity with us). I didn’t give away our contacts, it’s up to the next person if they want to do that or not. We’re making 97gpt at 0 lux & research, and our unit support is costing us 53gpt.
I have the research down for 1 more turn so we’ll have enough cash to rush the courthouse in New Berlin(FP site), after this you can turn it up some. N. Berlin should start the FP after the court finishes, also workers in the area should make that site a pretty big priority. Another note is that New Berlin has our horses, they’ll need to be hooked up ASAP.
Our biggest issue right now is lack of gold(no cash rushing, upgrading and buying techs is hard), but once the other Civs get their economy in order it won’t be such a problem because we’ll be able to actually make something off trading. Keep in mind we don’t want to cripple their gpt though
In Republic, Population=gold. We want all our cities growing to as big as they can before we pull a worker out to keep them happy. No more pulling workers out of size 2 towns, unless it can’t possibly get to size 3 until work is done(ie all jungle cities).
Our empire is doing pretty well. We just need a couple more pikes & a ton of cats incase one of our neighbors(France) gets the bright idea to attack us. That way we can fight a purely defensive war, not cripple them,and get some great opportunities at leader fishing. I’m thinking about skipping upgrading our warriors totally, and once we have horses hooked up we can start disbanding warriors that aren’t barb hunting. After we sort out what the hell Joanie is doing it’s back to markets, libraries & courthouses everywhere!
Hannover has our lone scientist to keep the population happy, after the library(3 turns) we’ll want to pull either a settler or a couple workers & then get a market in there. It doesn’t grow for 12, but you can change the scientist to a clown to buy you some time if need be.
Leipzig can be abandoned after this settler is produced. It’s more then served it’s purpose & has been a excellent temp worker pump.
I have a worker changing a couple tiles around Kongisburg so we can get irrigation to Hamburg, I’ll ouline his path in the map. Once we have some irrigation down that city will be able to use the surrounding hills, since that’s our main unit factory we need it to be up to par.


Any upcoming Wonders we want to plan for? Building has already started on Sun’s, but Leo’s(would help keep our military current), Bach’s(2 contents per city is always nice) are coming up. After that comes Copernicus’s, Newton’s & Smith’s that would be helpful.

Research path? We havn't really started on PP yet, so it can be changed if we want to. I was thinking Printing, Demo, then switch & ride out the rest of the game as a Democracy(even including our final war).


Our grand holdings......
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/empire2.JPG

The Super sketchy front line........
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/front1.JPG
I have that warrior scouting the mountain a bit to the north of there to make sure none have slipped by yet.

My irrigation project.......
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/irrigate.JPG


Good luck! It's certainly a dicy situation.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on one point - disbanding the warriors. We need to upgrade them - for reasons I'll explain later... it has to do with the math the AI uses to assess military strength.

We need to maintain some sort of gpt deals going with all the civs on the continent, so that if one of them attacks us, they take a rep hit.

I know the formula the AI uses to determine military strenght vs weakness, that's insignificant at this point though. Every turn they stay in the field we're burning 1gpt. We don't have the money to upgrade them(and won't for awhile), and by the time we do we'll have horses/knights.

I'm not talking about disbanding all 12 of them right now to save 12gpt. I'm talking about selectively disbanding warriors that are too far away to get to the front line & help out(but sitting in a city not doing anything). And then disbanding more/the rest once we have horses hooked up & start producing horsemen, so while our Military Upkeep stays the same or goes down a bit, our Military Strength rises in the eyes of the AI(due to the horseman having a 2 attack VS the warriors 1).

[edit- And we don't really have to gift any gpt to Russia/England, England is too crippled even with the GL to attack us, and it would be suicide for Russia.]
[edit2- After thinking a bit about it, ruining their rep is a tactic that while normally sound, will be a hindrence this game. Think about it, would we rather a neighbor AI pays for a tech to another AI in gold- so they'll spend the money rushing units, or in gpt which will be put into the other civs research?]

Lots of good points there GK. Did you invite a potential new teammate yet?

@Tal, you're up if you're ready for it.

Hopefully we'll be adding a new teammate here pretty shortly.

"Got it."

Will play today, I think, since tomorrow is England vs France and I'll be far, far too excited to consider playing Civ :lol:

Maybe that's what has happened to Q - he lives in Portugal, right? He must have football (sorry, soccer) fever :cool:


Tal

Ok, here we go...

IBT - The French forces retreat back west a bit... Japs building Sun Tzu... Russia looks to be settling eastwards...

Turn 1 - 260 AD

Rush build courthouse in New Berlin for 268 gold. Move troops into better positions near the French border area...
Berlin Settler>Settler
Kill a barb camp, 25g cha-ching...
Going to leave tax rate as it is for a couple more turns, partly to get some bank roll, partly since PP can be done in 9 turns when needed, at a net loss of only 4gpt...

IBT - Chinese>Sun Tzu...

Turn 2 - 270 AD

K'berg catapult>catapult, likewise Heidelburg...
New Berlin builds courthouse, corruption still maxed due to lack of road connection... start on FP.
Upgrade one veteran spear to pikeman.
MM some tiles around Nuremberg/New Leipzig to minimise effect of corruption.

Now making 96gpt after tax. No new advances among other civs, no money floating around either...

IBT - French still floating around, behaving strangely. Chinese begin Sistine Chapel...

Turn 3 - 280 AD

Hannover Library>worker, Nuremburg: Library>Courthouse. These libraries are looking good for cranking the tech rate up next turn.

Scouts reveal no Frenchies have sneaked past to the NW. Still no money or tech around, and Joanie still wants 40 gpt plus contacts for Chivalry...

IBT - French are still lingering around like a bad smell

Turn 4 - 290 AD

K'burg builds second catapult. Start Courthouse, might make this a pre-build for a useful wonder, the 600 shield ones are looking at 55 turns...
Frankfurt Swordsman>pikeman
Salzburg catapult>catapult

Road connected to New Berlin, looks around 66% corrupt :rolleyes:
Kill barbarian camp for 25g, then start stacking catapults in Salzburg, as without a road, they cannot get over the mountains to the west...

Tax rate to 50%, PP in 9 turns, making 4 gpt income... 390g in bank.

IBT - :sleep:

Turn 5 - 300 AD

Brandenburg Library>Courthouse
Cologne Catapult>Courthouse

Disband two warriors from border cities, upkeep costs are spiralling :sad:

IBT - :sleep:

Turn 6 - 310 AD

Hannover Worker>Courthouse
Leipzig Settler>Worker
Heidelburg Catapult> marketplace, need more money...
Munich mines gold, change from catapult to marketplace

IBT - Tokyo builds Lighthouse

Turn 7 - 320 AD

Horses connected :thumbsup:

Found New Frankfurt, disperse barb camp, 25g (where's the :relief: smiley?). Still no new techs or cash amongst the AI civs. What on earth are they DOING with all their cash??

IBT - French still moving around, my roving block warrior is causing them all sorts of confusion :lol:

Turn 8 - 330 AD

Salzburg Catapult>Marketplace (lots of commerce here due to river, 4 cats in a mini S.O.D.)
Change Hamburg from Pike to Horse... MM this place to max growth now that the irrigation is done.
Warrior kills barb, looks like another 2 camps are up!

Now only losing 1gpt, 401 in the bank, PP in 5...

IBT - :sleep:

Turn 9 - 340 AD

Leipzig produces Worker, and is abandoned, population 1. So long, Leipzig, and thanks for all the fish...

Lots of movement, warrior kills a barb horseman, finds the camp.

Again, no new discoveries by the AI. I hereby propose that we now refer to the computer players as AU civs (Artificially Unintelligent)...

IBT - Fend off a barbar attack in New Frankfurt...

Turn 10 - 350 AD

Refound Leipzig in the FP ring. Not much else happens, except some worker stuff and some hunting...


Over to you, Scouty!


Aftermath Summary

420g in bank, -2gpt, PP in 3 turns, but no new advances at all from the AU...

Militarily a bit better, with some pikemen, some catapults, but no war with France (hurrah!) - so most production has been on buildings, settlers and some workers.

Worker improvements are going well, especially around the FP site and Hamburg/Konigsberg.

There is a settler near New Berlin which could easily join that city, rather than found a new (and not so good) city. Worth thinking about, as the FP will take forever otherwise, and we are already over the OCN... There is a second settler which has headed SE towards that little clearing of plains in amongst all that jungle... RCP9 site, I believe, not too bad a site...

Will post a few screenies now :)


Tal

The running block... Warrior moves up and down, and the French run themselves ragged trying to go around!

Our Empire...

Those look like some good turns! And by the way - we will not be calling the AI "AU". My alma mater is "AU" thanyouverymuch. :p

Gengis and I have invited "Mistfit" to join in. We may or may not fiddle with the order-of-go when/if he checks in... but between that and the fact that I'm up in Denyd's insane little german variant ("Master of the Bow"; limiting ourselves to archers, longbows, and panzers) I may not get to this one until tomorrow.