But we can't do much about the small wonders, except pass the tech around when it's available, and hope they start building it somewhere else. Do the AI use prebuilds and change production? :confused:
I've seen discussion by some of the players far better than I, almost everyone :blush: , and they indicate that the AI does not pre-build like we can. Their only "pre-build" is through wonder cascades. From what we saw earlier with wonders in other cities, my guess is that the AI doesn't change production unless somehting happens to force it to do so. I would doubt they would be building a bank and then change it to university. Your testing scares me a ittle because there are a lot of small ownders out there. Let's look at that though.

To build Wall Street, they must not only have the tech but have built 5 banks. They must have Espionage to build Intelligence Agency, and 5 Hospitals to build Battlefield Medicine. If we keep up this tech pace, I am not sure they will have these requirements to build the small wonders. This game has proven that we can't know for sure, but it seems less likely. If they had their Golden Age, they could have had a victorious army and be able to build Heroic Epic or Military Academy. That has been a while, so I hope they have already started it.

Alan is right, we need to have any wonders available built before we cause the cascade so that it is most likely that Bombay, and perhaps a Japanese city, will take up U.N.

Good luck. May the RNG God be with us! :rolleyes:

If we have a little float on Bombay's build, and Japan doesn't give us anything closer than Bombay, should we give ourselves one extra turn for Univ Suff to complete? Less chance for mistakes, although Alan will be holding the mouse, so it should be up to him.
I think we should try for the optimum timing. How will we feel if we allow a couple of turns slack and then someone comes in with a golden laurel performance one turn faster than us?

I played the first 4 turns those worker actions do take time, everything goes as planned. We have 8 lux and our first workers just set foot in India, I'll investigate Bombay next turn. We have 4552 g, net gain 437 gpt. :)

But now: :sleep:

I think we should try for the optimum timing. How will we feel if we allow a couple of turns slack and then someone comes in with a golden laurel performance one turn faster than us?
I have no problem with going for the gold!! :king: After playing the other night I was wiped out (old age I suppose) and thought about turn 257 and keeping everything aligned and focused on it and wondered how long our luck would hold. The thought was meant to stimulate a little discussion. I think Zamint is the only one who has tried it in play testing and I was hoping he was going to tell me it was no sweat, very easy, and something any of us could do when half asleep! :lol: He hasn't said that yet, so I am still wondering how it will all turn out. :dubious:

I have more confidence in you Alan than I have in myself. That is why I wrote that the decision was yours, as you will own the mouse at the time! I will be waiting with a faint heart for your report!! :coffee: Not, more like :drool:

I played the first 4 turns those worker actions do take time, everything goes as planned. We have 8 lux and our first workers just set foot in India, I'll investigate Bombay next turn. We have 4552 g, net gain 437 gpt.

But now: :sleep:
The start sounds good. Hope you enjoy those :sleep: because you'll need them!! Looking forward to the next screenie of Bombay. ;) Keep up the good work! :salute:

Here's a screenshot of Bombay:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bombay_1200_AD.jpg

and here's one more of the lower part of the picture :

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bombay2a_1200_AD.jpg

What's happening here?
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

GA has ended. Better get those workers moving :)

GA has ended. Better get those workers moving :)That's true. They were running at 28 spt. Their base shields were 10, plus 9 for the GA. But we assumed the extra 9 came from a factory, and they don't have one. They're still getting an extra 9 - where are they coming from?

Lol, I thought I had the answer, but I'm as :confused: as you are :crazyeye:

Perhaps it's the AI wonder building bug. They've sure beaten me to a lot of wonders in the past [pimp]

That's true. They were running at 28 spt. Their base shields were 10, plus 9 for the GA. But we assumed the extra 9 came from a factory, and they don't have one. They're still getting an extra 9 - where are they coming from?
Just spent 30 minutes searching CivFanatics for an answer and found nothing. It looks like there is a factory, but there isn't? Of course, this is good for us because of the bonus after the U.N. gets built. Why look a gift horse in the mouth?

I am curious why however, should someone come up with some sort of explaination.

Get out the whip Zamint, get those workers railing and mining!! :D

A factory adds 50%. 9 shields is not 50%. More significantly it's one shield per shield-producing tile, which is the GA bonus. :confused:

If you look back at the screenshot I took in 890 AD they had 11 spt - they had an extra forest which they've since chopped to reduce to a base production of 10 spt. The only differences I can see now are (1) they've lost their wines supply so they have some unhappy people (2) they now have a bank and a university.

What worries me is that this may be the golden age bonus still. If so we might be back to 10 spt soon.

What worries me is that this may be the golden age bonus still. If so we might be back to 10 spt soon.
I thought of that as well, that it might be the GA carrying over at change of turn. However, the shields for the GA show on the map, and they are not there. Also, the shield production has stepped down the 9 that would have been the GA bonus, where the rest come from is a mystery to me.

I think we should check it again in a couple of turns to see what, if anything, changes.

I count 3 deserts, mined and railed is plus 6 shields and minus 1 food, 4 plains mined and railed is a plus 8 shields and minus 6 food, and a forest to be cut, mined and railed is plus 1 shield. The result is that I count plus 15 shields and minus 7 food. If it stays as is, that would be 34 shields, minus 10 percent corruption, for a net of 30 or 31 and that still leaves plenty of food. If we lose the 9 shields, that will be more like 25 shields, net 23. Better than 10 shields. :D 23 shields per turn would mean about 9 to 11 turns after cascadse, depending on how many shields our meddling creates before the cascade.

And isn't that the big question now, what will Bombay cascade to on turn 257? :crazyeye:

mobilization?
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_mobilization.shtml

And isn't that the big question now, what will Bombay cascade to on turn 257? :crazyeye:
That's the biggest unknown. This is the strongest argument for peace with Japan and careful monitoring in case they start another US prebuild.

If our prebuilder(s) don't have 720 shields at turn 257 we don't have to force the cascade on that turn. I'm not sure whether it pays us to delay it, but I raise it as an option.

BTW I think Bombay must have some war weariness. The loss of wines isn't enough to have turned happy people into 4 unhappy + 3 content since 890 AD, and they have 10% lux tax now where they had none before.

Also, I think someone mentioned we may have war weariness ourselves. There's no sign of it in the 1150 AD save. Our unhappy people say it's 100% due to overcrowding. So the end of the Japanese war won't do anything for our score rate.

mobilization?

You got it! Thanks, klarius. I'm such a GOTM-only guy that I never think of mobilisation. So production will drop back to 10 spt if India makes peace with Japan. Mobilization ceases automatically with a peace deal.

mobilization?
http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_mobilization.shtml

Thanks klarius, you are a true friend. :)

....but what I read there is:
No city improvement or wonder of any kind will generate a shield bonus, even if it is a permitted building project during a mobilization

I have a new screenshot :

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bombay_1230_AD.jpg

This is what we would expect, I don't know what was wrong. :confused: India is still at war!

It looks like you don't have to worry about your nails Alan. :lol:

I'll chop the forrest, and mine it all, then let's see if they shift any citizens. :)

It would appear that the mobilization shield bonus applies to Universal sufferage. That is not what catt's article on mobilizations says though. Could be a human/AI difference.

EDit (after Zamint's new screenshot) - the first screenshot likely was taken the turn after India's GA ended and before the total production was updated. If so we know when India's golden age ended.

1150 AD Preflight
Start Hoover’s in Rheims.
Prebuild for Manhattan in Frankfurt, can be used for Bach’s!
Sell a few more libraries, change production to galleons in some coastal cities, and rush about 5, MM a little to increase gpt.

IBT:
Japan land a longbowman just outside New Bonn 2.


1160 AD Turn 1 :
Checked with Japan, they wont give up Dacca any more!
Knight kills Japanese longbowman.
Prepare for worker shipment.

IBT:
Japan wants peace, but no deal yet.

1170 AD Turn 2 :
A lot of worker actions, trying to optimize production in size 12 cities.

IBT :
Research The Corporation and starts on Refining, slider up to 60%, net gain 229 gpt, still 10% lux.

1180 AD Turn 3 :
Cancel our Military Alliances with India and China, they are still gracious.
Give peace to Japan for WM + 4 gpt + 37 g. They wont give up any cities.
Get wines from Japan for ROP + Economics + Theory of Gravity + 4 lux + WM, (not iron)
Get gems + 5 gpt from Japan for Steam Power + Medicine.
We give Industrialization to Japan. They are cautious.
Slider down to 0% lux.


1190 AD Turn 4 :
We get Dyes + 162g + 50 gpt for The Corporation from India
China has Communism..
First load of workers visit India.

1200 AD Turn 5 :
Investigate Bombay for 156 g. No factory but producing a lot of shields?? :confused:


1210 AD Turn 6 :
Worker actions.

IBT :
Discover Refining and start researching Steel at 50%, net gain 548 gpt.

1220 AD Turn 7 :
We have oil.
Japan turned polite, trading territory map.

IBT :
Japan and China signed a peace treaty.
Trade The Corporation, Spices and Iron to China for Silks, 91g and 24gpt.


1230 AD Turn 8 :
Investigated Bombay again, things are back to normal. Bombay will be a little late.
Workers are mining all over.


1240 AD Turn 9 :
I can’t chop the forrest in India! :mad:


1250 AD Turn 10 :
-

Status :
Score : 3242
Treasury : 5795, net gain : 820 gpt
Research : Steel in one turn at 40%.

(edit : comments later!)

Good stuff zamimt3. We're still on track. I wondre whether Japan will give us another pre-build to consider. Trouble is, if they start one now it won't have a factory behind it so it's likely to be slower than Bombay. We'd probably rather they build a factory first, then start US.

We seem to have an awful lot of infantry. I suppose there's no point in suggesting we don't need any more. Artillery would be much more useful :hmm:

Good job getting all our cavalry upgraded. Now we need to get our galleons into harbours and upgrade them to transports asap, then start to move them into place as invasion fleets. I notice the Indians and Chinese have already taken two of Japan's cities from them. If we do decide to invade Japan then we have excellent beach heads available to us, Punjab in the north and Nara in the south. Under our RoPs with Japan and India it might be a good idea to build a strategic rail network from Nara and Punjab? Our 175 workers must be running out of really useful things to do at home. We could join some of our native workers to cities to get up to pop 12 for score and to reduce costs, and move a lot of the slaves abroad. Even if they don't manage to rail it all up before we start hostilities, we can use them to lay rails in leapfrog gangs under the panzer tracks as we advance.

Updated roster:

Turn 240 1250 AD AdrianE - UP
Turn 241 1255 AD Complete Steel
Turn 245 1275 AD Compete Combustion
Turn 249 1295 AD Complete Mass Production

Turn 250 1300 AD AlanH - On Deck
Turn 253 1315 AD Complete Motorised Transport, start building Panzers.
Turn 253 1315 AD Latest date to start cavalry invasion of Japan - 8 turns from upgrade date
Turn 257 1335 AD Complete Flight, Complete ToE.
- Get Radio and Fission free - UN and Manhatten available
- Complete US, Change Palace prebuild to Manhatten, complete Manhatten
- Gift India to Fission
- Hope that Bombay cascades to UN
Turn 257 1335 AD Latest date to start Panzer invasion of Japan

Turn 260 1350 AD Leif Erikson
Turn 261 1355 AD Latest date to conquer Japan - 8 turns from start of invasion
Turn 265 1375 AD UN Completed and we win .... or

Turn 270 1400 AD Capt Buttkick or zamint3
Turn 273 1415 AD (approx) Declare war on India and take Bombay
Turn 275 1425 AD Latest date to capture UN
Turn 276 1430 AD Call the next vote and we win[/QUOTE]

Turn 270 1400 AD zamint3 or Capt Buttkick

BTW. I can't think of a way to capture the UN on the turn it's built and hold the election on that turn, but if anyone can think of a neat trick to achieve that it would save a lot of hassle. I haven't changed the target dates yet. We don't know for sure that we are going to suffer a delay yet.

If our prebuilder(s) don't have 720 shields at turn 257 we don't have to force the cascade on that turn. I'm not sure whether it pays us to delay it, but I raise it as an option.

Good work Zamint! :goodjob: Getting through all those workers is a task, isn't it? :crazyeye: And thanks to klarius for the link, very interesting. I wonder if, when we decide who the target of our attack would be, if we include the U.N. builder in a MA, if they would go into mobilization and, perhaps, quicken the wonder build?? :mischief:

Alan, I think our schedule needs some update. Based on Zamint's screen shot, I have recalced and come up with a new set of numbers, perhaps my math will stink and you'll be right? :lol:
Zamint's screen shot was for 1230 AD, which is turn 238. The production box says that Univ Suff will complete in 28 turns, which means turn 266, 1380 AD. U.N. will require an additional 180 shields to complete beyond the 720 of Univ Suff., another 10 turns, bringing the U.N. build out to turn 276, or 1430 AD.

Delaying the cascade out further is, imho, not a good idea. A turn or two for comfort if you wish, but longer? I think that:
1. It would be nice to know what the results of the cascade are early so we have time to react if needed.
2. Delay will give the AI more time to build the pre-requisites for the small wonder, if they don't yet have them that is. This could allow them to cascade to somehting we don't want.
3. Delay would require us to delay all our pre-builds, keeping us from building Panzers or other priorities in those cities.

I see Zamint provided Industrialization to Japan. That's good, now we shall see, hopefully during Adrian's turns, if they will take the bait.

Lots still to do, good luck Adrian. :thumbsup: I'll be :coffee:

OK

I have it. I won't have time to play this evening so it will be tomorrow.

Adrian

Alan, I think our schedule needs some update. Based on Zamint's screen shot, I have recalced and come up with a new set of numbers, perhaps my math will stink and you'll be right? :lol:
Zamint's screen shot was for 1230 AD, which is turn 238. The production box says that Univ Suff will complete in 28 turns, which means turn 266, 1380 AD. U.N. will require an additional 180 shields to complete beyond the 720 of Univ Suff., another 10 turns, bringing the U.N. build out to turn 276, or 1430 AD.I see no point in updating it when (a) I don't know if we have done all we can to speed up Bombay and (b) we don't know if/when India will make peace and demobilise. We'd just be moving from one bad guess to another.

Delaying the cascade out further is, imho, not a good idea. A turn or two for comfort if you wish, but longer? I think that:
1. It would be nice to know what the results of the cascade are early so we have time to react if needed.
2. Delay will give the AI more time to build the pre-requisites for the small wonder, if they don't yet have them that is. This could allow them to cascade to something we don't want.
3. Delay would require us to delay all our pre-builds, keeping us from building Panzers or other priorities in those cities.I think I agree. I just wanted it to be discussed. The only benefit to delay might be if India hasn't started US at 1335 AD. In that case we'd burn our bridges by completing.

I see Zamint provided Industrialization to Japan. That's good, now we shall see, hopefully during Adrian's turns, if they will take the bait.Yes!

Good luck Adrian, take your time, there's no rush ;)

I see no point in updating it when (a) I don't know if we have done all we can to speed up Bombay and (b) we don't know if/when India will make peace and demobilise. We'd just be moving from one bad guess to another.
Just relooked the second screenie Zamint posted, the 1230 AD shot, and I think they have demobilized as the shields shown on the map equals the total shown under the production heading, center screen. As I read what Zamint did, there is only the northern desert to mine and rail, for plus 2 more shields, and, unless the AI changes its citizens around, that will be the best we can do. The shield production will be 24 gross and, probably, 21 net (3 corruption). I can't do the math until that is done because I don't know what is in the production box. My earlier example was for 19 spt net. The forest can not change as Zamint wrote that the program wouldn't allow him to cut the forest.
I think I agree. I just wanted it to be discussed. The only benefit to delay might be if India hasn't started US at 1335 AD. In that case we'd burn our bridges by completing.
Sorry, don't mean to be picky, but did you mean Japan? Perhaps it would not be burning bridges as, with a prayer, Japan might have built a factory somewhere and would love to build U.N. directly. Perhaps faster than India. Please, make my day!! :crazyeye:

:shakehead
Well done, Zamint. :goodjob:
Good luck, Adrian. :thumbsup:

Yes, sorry, I meant Japan, of course :blush::confused:

OK. Let's recalculate ...

Bombay had between 188 and 206 shields in the bin at turn 239 (1230 AD). Looking at the bin image I'd say it was near to 200 , as each row of shields is 80. That means it needed about 700 shields to complete the UN. At 21 spt it would take 34 turns from then to complete the UN => turn 273.

Here's an updated schedule based on this forecast. All this is subject to re-appraisal if Japan starts a US pre-build or if anyone starts a new UN build:

Turn 240 1250 AD AdrianE - UP
Turn 241 1255 AD Complete Steel
Turn 245 1275 AD Compete Combustion
Turn 249 1295 AD Complete Mass Production

Turn 250 1300 AD AlanH - On Deck
Turn 253 1315 AD Complete Motorised Transport, start building Panzers.
Turn 257 1335 AD Complete Flight, Complete ToE.
- Get Radio and Fission free - UN and Manhatten available
- Complete US, Change Palace prebuild to Manhatten, complete Manhatten
- Gift India to Fission
- Hope that Bombay cascades to UN.
- If so proceed as below. If not, review options.

Turn 260 1350 AD Leif Erikson
Turn 264 1370 AD Latest date to start Panzer invasion of Japan

Turn 270 1400 AD Capt Buttkick or zamint3
Turn 272 1410 AD Latest date to conquer Japan - 8 turns from start of invasion
Turn 273 1415 AD UN Completed and we win .... or

Turn 280 1450 AD zamint3 or Capt Buttkick
Turn 280 1450 AD (approx) Declare war on India and take Bombay
Turn 283 1465 AD Latest date to capture UN
Turn 284 1470 AD Call the next vote and we win

OK. Let's recalculate ...

Bombay had between 188 and 206 shields in the bin at turn 239 (1230 AD). Looking at the bin image I'd say it was near to 200 , as each row of shields is 80. That means it needed about 700 shields to complete the UN. At 21 spt it would take 34 turns from then to complete the UN => turn 273.
Look's good! :goodjob:
Here's an updated schedule based on this forecast. All this is subject to re-appraisal if Japan starts a US pre-build or if anyone starts a new UN build:

Turn 240 1250 AD AdrianE - UP
Turn 241 1255 AD Complete Steel
Turn 245 1275 AD Compete Combustion
Turn 249 1295 AD Complete Mass Production

Turn 250 1300 AD AlanH - On Deck
Turn 253 1315 AD Complete Motorised Transport, start building Panzers.
Turn 257 1335 AD Complete Flight, Complete ToE.
- Get Radio and Fission free - UN and Manhatten available
- Complete US, Change Palace prebuild to Manhatten, complete Manhatten
- Gift India to Fission
- Hope that Bombay cascades to UN.
- If so proceed as below. If not, review options.

Turn 260 1350 AD Leif Erikson
Turn 264 1370 AD Latest date to start Panzer invasion of Japan

Turn 270 1400 AD Capt Buttkick or zamint3
Turn 272 1410 AD Latest date to conquer Japan - 8 turns from start of invasion
Turn 273 1415 AD UN Completed and we win .... or

Turn 280 1450 AD zamint3 or Capt Buttkick
Turn 280 1450 AD (approx) Declare war on India and take Bombay
Turn 283 1465 AD Latest date to capture UN
Turn 284 1470 AD Call the next vote and we win
A question. If we do not have to start war with Panzers until turn 274, shouldn't we also consider gifting China and Japan to Fission. Japan we could do on the same turn, unless they have a useless pre-build like China. China we could gift to a turn after our US build is finished so that they purge the useless pre-build in that crummy city and, perhaps, we might get lucky and get U.N. in a high shield city somewhere. Once all this has, or has not in some cases, happened, we can evaluate who to take out and how much time we have to do it. Just a thought which keeps our options open as long as possible. ;)

I agree, I was thinking the same thing, hence my comment in the first sentence "... or if anyone starts a new UN build"

It only took four or five posts to get it into my thick skull that time!! :lol:
:thanx:

Just relooked the second screenie Zamint posted, the 1230 AD shot, and I think they have demobilized as the shields shown on the map equals the total shown under the production heading, center screen.
Production is back to normal, but they are still at war with Japan so how did they demobilize? :confused:
Maybe when one AI signs a peace treaty the others are allowed to demobilize as well! :crazyeye:

Wonders :
Our prebuilds are timed a little early, so they'll have to be slowed down at some time. Hoover is finished in 5 turns, so production will be speeded up in Frankfurt (palace), but not in Konigsberg (Universal Suffrage) and New Konigsberg (Theory of Evolution) as they don't have a factory.

Military :
We are running out of things to build, so I have been building our military. Cities with barracks have been building infantry if production > 45 and cavalry if production < 45, and artillery in cities with out barracks (not very many). I just repeated the build when they were produced and we may have too many infantry, but the only thing we really want is panzers. :hammer:

In our coastal cities that are not productive we are producing ironclads in the ones with a harbor, they can be rushed later or changed to destroyers or even battleships. We should have plenty of cash to rush them.
We are also building a lot of galleons, to be upgraded to transports, I don't think we need that many though.

@AdrianE: I've found out what IE is doing that's causing your uploading problems. IE uses an old protocol called MacBinary to send files it doesn't know about. It's possible to set it up to know about .SAV files and it will then send them as plain binary files and associate them with Civ3. Then it behaves like other browsers.

I thought I'd dealt with this possibility, but it wan't working properly - hence your problems - so I've prototyped a fix. If I get it installed in time today you should be able to submit your file OK tonight using IE without any changes. It'll also allow you to submit GOTMs if you want to.

I still recommend Safari, though ;)

If we do decide to invade Japan then we have excellent beach heads available to us, Punjab in the north and Nara in the south. Now that India has taken a city from Japan, there's some free land over there. Would it hurt our rep. to build a city on one of those spots? I think we discussed something like this earlier. :crazyeye:

Under our RoPs with Japan and India it might be a good idea to build a strategic rail network from Nara and Punjab?
Very good idea! :thumbsup:

Our 175 workers must be running out of really useful things to do at home. We could join some of our native workers to cities to get up to pop 12 for score and to reduce costs, and move a lot of the slaves abroad. Even if they don't manage to rail it all up before we start hostilities, we can use them to lay rails in leapfrog gangs under the panzer tracks as we advance.
That's right, I've started to irrigate around the coastal cities, so they are ready to be popped up, if we wanna invest in aquaducts and marketplaces.
I think we could rail the whole asian continent if we wanted to. :D The 12 workers allready there should finish mining and railing around Bombay and then they can start the rail network.

Now that India has taken a city from Japan, there's some free land over there. Would it hurt our rep. to build a city on one of those spots? I think we discussed something like this earlier.
I'm at work now, and don't have the map in front of me, so I don't know what's feasible. Leif suggested a city site over there before, to grab some lux, but it was very close to an Indian city if I recall correctly. We shouldn't settle closer that about 4 tiles away from an AI city. The other bit of territory we really ought to be able to grab, for score purposes, is the Chinese city on our NW island. Are we putting enough local cultural pressure on it?

I have poked around the save some.

Zamint: thanks for your thoughts on why you were building ironclads. I was going to change them all to galleons but I'll leave most of them as destroyer/battleship prebuilds. We might even want to preposition some aircraft carriers off the indian coast to support our panzer army.

We do have a lot of workers under construction in the corrupt towns. I don't think we need more workers. 175 is enough.

Alan: all the culture building on the NW Island were sold. We are not really pressuring that chinese city.

Alan: all the culture building on the NW Island were sold. We are not really pressuring that chinese city.
I have a feeling the only one that had any culture was the one that has already expanded. But you're right, that's probably been sold off. The others built a few rifles and a harbour and a barracks or two to upgrade troops. If I recall the map correctly, we could do with some culture expansion in those, if only to grab some more coastal tiles to add to our score. D'you think we could get a flip in the Chinese city? If so it's worth spending a gp or two to achieve for some extra score, as it looks like we have 40-plus turns to go. Do culture flips have an adverse effect on the attitude of the civ you do it to?

Do culture flips have an adverse effect on the attitude of the civ you do it to?
Just read Bamspeedy's article in the War Academy concerning AI Attitude and I didn't see anything negative about a civ's city flipping to you because of culture. There is so much there, I hope I didn't miss it. The link is - << AI Attitude Exposed >> (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_ai_attitude.shtml)
Another interesting thing I read is that Bamspeedy didn't think you took a rep hit for aggressively placing a city, however, he does say that at times, the civ will declare war on you.
He also wrote about a permanent cap on the good you can earn, and that is 10 points. Once we reach that cap, anything we do will not matter. There are two basic categories of things we can do. One is situationally based and the other involves permanent changes to attitude. MA and war are transitional while gifts are permanent. If you haven't read it, it is worth the time.

Brief report on my turns. I'm too tired for a detailed report.

Japan did not start US. Japan is getting beaten by India.

My turns were intense worker actions. I cleared a lot of jungle. I micromanged the corrupt cities to get $. I rushed some markets to get WLTKDs. In 1265 I bought Communism from China for Ivory and refining. I then built a lot of police stations.
I gave away some techs too.

I rushed culture buildings on the NW island to squeeze that Chinese city. I also rushed a few more culture buildings to grab some unclaimed squares and maximize happiness. Every citizen (almost) is happy or a taxman.

Score is 3575 in AD1300.

Nice turns, AdrianE. :thumbsup: Another midnight oil burner! You were obviously able to upload the save, and I've got it. I'm not sure we need a detailed report, as it has all gone to plan as far as I can tell. If you did any investigations that would be useful, and I'd like a rundown on what the workers are up to in India now. Are they en route for Japan to rail it up? Or is there another cunning plan for Bombay?

India is certainly carving up Japan. they have three more cities now. According to my count the pops are:

India => 129
China => 99 => 126 potential if all cities grow to 12 (except Hangchow which is stuck at 6)
Japan => 66

It therefore seems likely that India will remain our UN vote competitor unless we choose to take cities and gift China up to a higher pop level.

Our three prebuilds are all bang on target for 7 turns from now. Well done everyone. :goodjob: Bombay is still our only UN candidate currently. China and Japan are Polite and India is still Gracious. With Motorised Transport in 3 turns our panzers will start to roll very soon. We have plenty of options open to us as the next few turns unfold, and we need to stay very flexible. So my task will be to try to assemble our invasion forces where thay can be used to back up any campaign plan. It's probably not worth making any further detailed plans until we see what happens in 1335 AD, and how the wonders shake out by the end of my turns. In the meantime, if Japan starts a US build we can check if that is a suitable UN prebuild.

In 1335 AD we give India and Japan Fission. We shall probably know by the end of my turns whether both India and Japan are building the UN. I won't give China Fission until 1340 AD, so that they have to dump the shields in Hangchow or cascade them to something else. Then we'll see if they start a new and more competitive UN build as well.

It doesn't look as though we are going to get our score rate up to the 500+ per 10 turns we'd need to catch Kuningas. We're still at the 330 level with only a few more tiles we can claim. I'll grab everything I can, but it probably won't be enough to win the green laurels. So our award hopes hang on getting the UN vote as fast as possible. Let's hope Offa, who finished in 1080 AD, didn't go for the variant :eek:

The AI have made it to Printing Press. Democracy next, I guess. They love those optional techs! Interesting that they've not reached music and JS Bach's yet.

Japan did not start US. Japan is getting beaten by India.
Sounds very interesting. Good job Adrian! :goodjob: India beating up on Japan is not so good, but there is nothing you can do about that. It is beginning to look like our eggs are in one basket, unless China pulls off a miracle. The next 10 turns will tell our tale of quick victory or of how long we wait to go to going to war to secure victory.
My turns were intense worker actions.
It really is intense, isn't it. Just remembering what your trying to accomplish as the program goes through the endless number of workers and bounces all over the map, it drove me nuts. Especially now because of their efficiency and how quickly they all seem to finish. I have never played a game with this number of workers, and do not intend to for a long time. :crazyeye: You have survived it, hope you slept well!! :D

Good luck Alan!! I wait breathlessly for 1335 AD and what it holds for us. :hmm: But don't rush! :eek: Time for :coffee: with a little rum. :lol:

edit-Alan, I am getting a message that my attempt to connect to the gotm server is being refused, Is it down? Can't get the save??? :cry:

Alan

The workers in India are hannging around unmoved. The land route to Japan is blocked by streams of Indian military units. They will have to go by sea. No investigations were done.

The hoovers build accelerated the palace so I had to do some careful micromangement to keep it on track. Actually you could push it back a turn or two to be safe as the palace shields >> manhattan shields


India beating up Japan is not so bad. We probably would have just given the Japanese cities to India anyway. We will have to take the UN from India. If India still has the largest popluation after we take the UN, they will be our opponent for the vote which is good because they wouldn't vote for us anyway. Japan will vote for us (they will be Furious with India) and we can bribe China to be on our side.

I have accumulated the artillery in Frankfurt and Infantry in Berlin. I stopped building cavalry as tanks are close. Most of our big cities can build tanks in 2 turns.

Zamint - while managing all those workers is a pain, it is by doing exactly that that gives a human player an edge over the AI.

India beating up on Japan is not so good, but there is nothing you can do about that.
It's bad in that it may prevent India from starting a faster UN build, but as Adrian says, it may even mean we don't need to do any more fighting until we have to take the UN. India may even take enough Japanese territory that they feel strong enough to try for a vote when they complete the UN.

edit-Alan, I am getting a message that my attempt to connect to the gotm server is being refused, Is it down? Can't get the save??? :cry:The server seems to have gone down. I'm afraid I don't have any control over that, and we'll just have to wait for Thunderfall to get around to resurrecting it. I'm really not sure why a Linux server should fall over as often as this one does :hmm:

Anyway, I grabbed the save earlier. so I've uploaded it here.

I can see that India irrigated one of the silks at Bombay and there's no mine on the oil. These should be mined asap. and we should fortify a worker on each mine to prevent India from changing them again.

I can't wait to hear about the cascade. :D

Good luck Alan.

I can't wait to hear about the cascade.
Well, you can hear about it a little early ... I did a bit of mm, maximised happy faces to see what we could get to in score per turn, rushed a couple of culture buildings and settlers to grab extra coastal tiles. Then decided we hadn't looked at the wonder builders recently, so investigated Hangchow and Bombay. The bad news is India has gone communist, and so its 25 shields drop to 16 after wastage :(. ETA for Universal Suffrage is now 37 turns in Hangchow and 21 turns in Bombay.

I hit next turn, and after all our production went through .... Hangchow completed Universal Suffrage!!!! :eek: I can only assume they finally used up a leader. How long have they been at peace with India??? Is there any other way they could have finished it???

So I stopped for a rethink. Bombay has not reacted yet. They are still building US. We could give them Electricity and Scientific Method and hope they'll cascade Bombay to ToE. That would preserve their current shield stockpile, but their build rate is not spectacular. Or we can let Bombay dump its shields and then give these techs to all three and hope they'll start a faster ToE prebuild. Bombay might build a factory with its accumulated shields and become a faster builder but I don't think that would compensate for the loss of about 400 shields.

So my proposal is to try to cascade Bombay to ToE now, and give the techs to China and Japan at the same time and see if anyone else will start ToE. It's a fairly safe move unless they have another leader up their sleeves :eek: ) What do you think?

I hit next turn, and after all our production went through .... Hangchow completed Universal Suffrage!!!! :eek:
Unbelievable!! :wallbash: I have to :) , or I'll :cry: !! Does Hangchow still look as backward as before?
So my proposal is to try to cascade Bombay to ToE now, and give the techs to China and Japan at the same time and see if anyone else will start ToE. It's a fairly safe move unless they have another leader up their sleeves :eek: ) What do you think?
I say that you should go for it. There is nothing really to lose because if they get ToE, we will have a lot more time to research because of the build times, unless someone gets another leader. :shakehead The risk is outweighed by the benefit, if we should happen to succeed this time...

The game has really thrown us some interesting twists? Got to keep at it and see if we can ever finish??? :twitch:

BTW - Thanks for posting the save, got it and then got into the GOTM server 15 minutes later! :lol:

Thanks for the sanity check, Leif. I figured it the same. Worst case they get ToE, and we should be able to catch up the two techs in about 8 turns. We prolly have that much in hand, though we'd have to slow down the Manhatten prebuild.

Thanks for the sanity check, Leif.
You're welcome. It seems to me we have had need of many of these checks lately! Should the AI get ToE, they will probably take Democracy and Free Artistry :dubious: How could we lose, except the 8 extra turns for our research to Fission and the time to get them to build the U.N. :sleep:

Good luck, I think you, and the rest of us, really are going to need it. I think I'll sleep with a rabbit's foot tonight, if you think it will help? groucho

Just a recheck ... ToE is only a 600 shield wonder (540 for the AI). Bombay has 400min, 415 max shields, so they could complete 540 in 8 turns from now. We complete in 6. Close!!! :eek:

Just a recheck ... ToE is only a 600 shield wonder (540 for the AI). Bombay has 400min, 415 max shields, so they could complete 540 in 8 turns from now. We complete in 6. Close!!! :eek:
The more they have at cascade time, the better for us, as long as they don't get it first! :blush: As I have said, there have been so many twists and turns, cutting it a little bit close could be good, less time for the RNG to screw us. :eek:

We already discussed that, should they beat us, it means more time, maybe. I still say, "Make it so". :mischief:

Hangchow completed Universal Suffrage!!!! :eek: I can only assume they finally used up a leader. How long have they been at peace with India??? Is there any other way they could have finished it???
:mad: :wallbash: :mad: :wallbash: [pissed]

You mean at peace with Japan, they signed that peace treaty in 1230, so that's a long time to hold on to a leader. :cry:

So my proposal is to try to cascade Bombay to ToE now, and give the techs to China and Japan at the same time and see if anyone else will start ToE. It's a fairly safe move unless they have another leader up their sleeves :eek: ) What do you think?
Good idea! :thumbsup:

Just a recheck ... ToE is only a 600 shield wonder (540 for the AI). Bombay has 400min, 415 max shields, so they could complete 540 in 8 turns from now. We complete in 6. Close!!!
Sounds perfect, you can allways slow them down irrigating the plains if they go back to Republic. We should have enough cash to investigate Bombay every turn if you feel the need! ;)

I agree with cascasding Bombay to ToE. We should still be ahead of them unless religious Ghandi suddenly discovers Democracy, ends war with Japan and revolt. We can't have that bad luck, can we? ;)

Wow. More unforseen consequences of that annoying war with Japan. China would have never gotten a leader, if we hadn't dragged them into the war. It probably took them some time to move him home. There is quite a bottleneck.

We could let them cascade to TOE. The other option is to learn one of the optional wonder giving techs. Are there any available? We could use TOE to get the required tech if it is immediately available thus slowing us down by 4 turns not 8.

China would have never gotten a leader, if we hadn't dragged them into the war.
Now you're being my-glass-is-half-empty again :p

If we finish ToE in 6, won't we get Fission then? :confused:

I haven't played on yet - been too busy. I hope to play tonight and post before bed ... whenever that is :p

@Adrian: Is your alternative option that we would complete ToE now using our US shields? That could give us Music Theory to pass on to the AI as an alternative to Scientific Method, removing the risk of a leader beating us to ToE. The research time cost of that option is a certain 7 turns: 3 turns we'll have invested in Motorised Transport at the end of 1305 AD plus 4 turns taken out for an optional tech. The worst case cost of losing the ToE to a leader is only 8 turns, and this might never happen, so if I'm understanding correctly it doesn't really buy us anything except certainty?

The worst case cost of losing the ToE to a leader is only 8 turns, and this might never happen, so if I'm understanding correctly it doesn't really buy us anything except certainty?
The worst case also means that we loose the AI prebuild. :eek:
You probably allready played, but you could place a ring of workers around Bombay, not allowing a leader to enter Bombay, and wait before you gift Scientific Method to Japan. :cool:

Originally Posted by Capt Buttkick
If we finish ToE in 6, won't we get Fission then?
When we have researched Motorized Transport and Flight we'll finish ToE on the same turn and get Radio and Fission as our two techs. :D
(I don't remember if it's 6 or 7 turns)

You probably allready played, but you could place a ring of workers around Bombay, not allowing a leader to enter Bombay, and wait before you gift Scientific Method to Japan. :cool:
Excellent suggestion :) The rules say nothing about GL denial [pimp]

The worst case also means that we loose the AI prebuild. :eek:
You probably allready played, but you could place a ring of workers around Bombay, not allowing a leader to enter Bombay, and wait before you gift Scientific Method to Japan. :cool: I wish I had ... support issues with gotm32 have taken my time. So far I've played the pre-turn, including loading up 8 of the workers around Bombay to ship north, but I'm still at the start of 1305 AD. They are now sitting in a transport five tiles north of the Bombay area. I think they are due for a U-turn :D.

When we have researched Motorized Transport and Flight we'll finish ToE on the same turn and get Radio and Fission as our two techs. :D
(I don't remember if it's 6 or 7 turns)6 more turns now. We'll also switch our Palace to Manhatten and get that on the next turn. I don' want to risk it coming up earlier in the build completion order than ToE. We don't need a Palace jump to Frankfurt :eek:

About to start now. I'll be back real soon.

Finally!!! Here's the next turn log. Sorry to keep you all in suspense, but I was rather slow playing this, trying to avoid too many errors.

Preflight
I decided to try to focus on our score rate., so I found a few extra coastal tiles we could grab with a couple of settlers and a bit of cultural expansion:

Switched to settler from wealth in Chartres, and switched and rushed one in Hamburg 3 for 24 gold.
Rushed a library in New Bonn 2 for 156 gold
Switched to a library in Hannover 2, wasting 7 shields.

Investigated the current Wonder builders:

Hangchow for 74 gold. Will take 37 turns to complete Univ.Suffrage @ 6 spt
Bombay for 156 gold. Will take 21 turns to complete Univ Sufrage @ 25 spt - 9 waste. India nhas switched to Communism :eek:

Our workers have largely finished lanscaping Bombay, so decide to move them north for railing duties in Japan in case we need to invade. Load up 8 workers into a transport to sail past the choke point permanently blocked by Indian troop moving north.

Switched York from Iron Works to Police Station. Figured we need both, and the there should be less waste if we do Police Station first.
Joined a few workers to increase pop in a couple of cities. Moved 4 transports near Stuttgart 2 north ready to start shipping more workers to the other continent.

IBT
Several WLTKDs end :hmm:
Lots of artillery builds complete, plus libraries, a bank and my rushed settler.
Hangchow completes Universal Suffrage :eek: They must have had a leader up their sleeves.

Turn 251 1305 AD
Check F7. Bombay hasn't changed production yet. Decide to try to cascade Bombay to ToE, also see if we can get another Civ started. So:

Sell China Scientific Method for Printing Press + 55 gpt + 154 gold + Wmap
Give India Electricity (for Wmap + 9 gold) and Scientific Method
Give Japan Electricity and Scientific Method

The WLTKD problem is because we've lost our supply of gems. India has split Japan by capturing its choke point city. The eastern wines have no harbours for export.

Rush the second settler in Chartres for 116 gold. Turn the worker transport back to Bombay to implement zamint3's suggested blockade to prevent an Indian leader from completing it early. Set lux tax to 10%, reduce science for Motorised transport in 2 turns at 633 gpt. Switch Konigsberg to a Factory, dumping 442 shields.
Check ToE build still on track for 6 turns, and slow the Palace build to 7 turns.

Let's see what Bombay does now ... next turn ...

IBT
Several artillery complete.
China starts ToE !! India doesn't.

Turn 252 1310 AD
China is building ToE in Tsingtao. Bombay went out of the wonder building business. :(
Investigate Tsingtao 148 gold. Screenshot below. They have 22 spt with 7 spt waste. ETA for ToE is 36 turns, that's 48 for the UN! The good news is it's mostlyrailed up, and has lots of irrigated tiles we can mine. So we agree a RoP with China - no problem with a 20 turn agreement, and we move the workers to Tsingtao.

Sliders to 6.3.1 for Motorised Transport next turn at 829 gpt.

IBT
Motorised Transport complete. Flight in 4 turns at 3.6.1
All current unit builds switched from artillery to Panzers, and the first ones roll off the production line [dance] (wonder if we'll get a chance to see them in action :hmm:

Turn 253 1315 AD
Unload a transport full of workers at Jaipur to work at Tsingtao. Clear pollution near Leipzig. Build Bremen 3 and Stuttgart 3.
Sliders 3.6.1 for Flight in 4 turns at 182 gpt.
Score 3675.That's only an increase of 100 in 3 turns :(

IBT
Japan asks to renew the peace treaty. OK.
Lots more Panzers produced. York completes Police Station, starts Iron Works.
Our dyes deal expires.

Turn 254 1320 AD
Give India Steel and RoP renewal for dyes + wmap
China has Refining so give Japan and India Refining . Also give Japan Steel.
India has now taken Hadokate from Japan, who is down to 9 cities.
Hurry markets in Bonn2 and Coventry for 300 and 396 gold
A stack of 32 workers arrives in Japan, nd and five more arrive in China.
Slider 4.5.1 for Flight in 3 turns at 311 gpt.

IBT
Our RoP and wines deal expires with Japan. Give them Replaceable Parts and RoP for wines and wmap.
More Panzers. Coventry riots, and WLTKD ends again in many cities. Must have been the wine deal expiry? :hmm: So much for my hope for increased score rate :(

Turn 255 1325 AD
Strart railing up central Japan. Mine Tsingtao and leave workers on mines. Investigate Tsingtao again for 148 gold. It's now producing 33 spt with 10 spt waste. ToE eta in 22 turns, so UN in about 30.
Slider 4.5.1 for Flight in 2 turns at 314 gpt.

IBT
India continues to pound Japan. More Panzers roll. WLTKD breaks out all over again.

Turn 256 1330 AD
Renew China's furs and incense deal for 6 gpt + 100 + wmap.
Slider 4.5.1 for Flight next turn at 317 gpt.

IBT
India captures Matsuyan.
Flight completed. Choose Radio.
Lots of Panzers produced, switch production to include some bombers.
ToE produced. Radio completed. Choose Fission.
New era announcement. And our free tech is ... ECOLOGY!
Fission completed. Choose the big picture, select Computers as the next tech, and switch to the Foreign Adviser.
Give lots of techs away to all three AI civs. They're all very grateful.
It is announced that China is building the UN [dance]

Turn 257 1335 AD
F7 confirms Tsingtao is building the UN. Another investigation ... They are producing 35 spt minus 11 waste = 24 spt net for UN in 33 turns.
They really need another lux - wine, gems or dyes to get a WLTKD going.
I decide to stick with Computers, researching at 2.7.1 for completion in 5 turns at -81 gpt. It will allow us to upgrade our Infantry to the first useful defender in the game, and I start the UN as a prebuild for SETI in Berlin.
Careful retuning gets just about everyone happy or content or a taxman.

IBT
After all that tuning. Osaka falls to India, and we lose our wines. WLTKD ends again!!
China also wants to renegotiate the spices deal. We give him Ecology for spices.
Renew RoP with Japan and decide to give him rubber to go with Replaceable Parts.
Manhatten project completes.

Turn 258 1340 AD
More workers over to the other continent, including a few to the eastern part of Japan.

Turn 259 1345 AD
Sliders to 3.6.1 for Computers in 3 turns.

Turn 260 1350 AD
Hook up the wines in India's new territories and buy them from Ghandi in exchange for Ecology.

Save uploaded here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Xteam_SG002_AD1350_01.SAV). Score 3904

Here are the three investigations I carried out on Tsingtao:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Xteam_Tsingtao_1310AD.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Xteam_Tsingtao_1325AD.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Xteam_Tsingtao_1335AD.jpg

Nice set of turns Alan!! :goodjob: Could you have had any more ups and downs in one set of turns?? :eek:

That moves U.N. completion out to turn 290, 1500 AD!! Let's hope that India gets back in the game with a city with a factory build completed, working on U.N. I might as well wish for a Jason score of 20,000 on my next GOTM!! :lol:

China, as the only U.N. builder, is also the civ farthest behind. India will easily be second in scoring, land area, etc. It doesn't look good for China calling the vote. I also can't think of any way to help them. We have a renegotiated peace with Japan and a recently agreed to ROP with Japan, so we can't take Japan down and give the cities to China. Guess we sit and wait unless someone has a bright idea? Is China at war? The only other thing is to keep them fighting Japan and pray for a Great Leader, again, can lightning strike twice? Now I'm grasping at straws! :mischief:

Time to :sleep: on it. Maybe I'll have a flash of brilliance come morning, NOT!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Morning has come and I had nothing but nightmares!! :spear:

Nightmare 1. Everyone now is into Modern Times and, with as many as 35 to 40 turns to play, we probably should keep our eyes out for someone starting to build a spaceship. :eek:

Nightmare 2. With India as big as it, controlling a larger share of resources, we are probably going to have to continue researching rapidly. We may have to trade India techs to keep our lux supply flowing.

Thoughts. Before we get to use Panzers, we will have Modern Armor, and should think about researching Synthetic Fibers next, just to make sure we can defeat any Mech Inf that show up, although that will be a while, maybe. :rolleyes:

I think we have to get, in trades, all the Lux there are. We may have to use the lux slider more and slow down research some. We should also think about acquiring Espionage, if we don't have it already, and get the Intelligence Agency built as we need some spies. :cringe:

Capt Buttkick - Asked for a skip
Leif Erikson - UP
zamint3 - On deck
AdrianE
AlanH - Just played

After action report A bit delayed - I crashed out as soon as I'd posted the turn log and the save.

We are right on schedule in all respects except that the UN is being built in a one-horse town in China and will take an extra 15 turns. After sleeping on it my thoughts are:

1. I think maybe I was too greedy taking India's wines after I hooked them up. If I had lived without them maybe Ghandi would have sold them to China and they'd have improved production in Tsingtao with a WLTKD. I'm not sure how to repair that damage :(

2. Japan has only seven cities left. If we can protect Japan with a peace-keeping force and give them time to recover they may be able to counterattack in a few turns and take back one or two of India's cities. We could then take them out after the current deals expire (17 turns) and give their cities to China to maybe encourage them to call a vote.

Alternatively Japan and India might decide to do a peace deal and get started on build a faster UN for us.

To this end I have given Japan rubber, and I've already seen their first infantry deployed. I have a blockade in place using a couple of workers on the main north-south highway. That will stop India reinforcing their existing forces in Japan. I started to put together another barrier around Kyoto to slow India down. However, I don't know if getting in India's way creates a danger of them attacking us. We might want to deploy some panzers as part of that force to dissuade thoughts of attcking us. So far I've kept our troops at home.

3. Our current military resources are shown below. We also have 148 workers plus lots of guests. We have four more units not shown that could be upgraded - horse, knight, rifle, sword??? The 48 Panzers are in Heidelburg. The Artillery are in Frankfurt, Infantry in Berlin, Bombers mostly in Dijon, but a few bombers are in Hastings to cover our western approaches.

4. I've joined about 30 German workers to cities, trying to increase total happy pop, but the lux failures have not helped. I've been chopping and irrigating or mining jungle, and trying to get to 50 spt in core cities for major unit completions in 2 turns.

5. We have 4120 gold, Computers are complete in 2 turns. We have the UN being built in Berlin as a prebuild for SETI. The AI are up to date with techs, all except Japan who needs Ecology and India needs Printing Press. All the AI are short of resources, so we could reduce tension on the other continent by giving them what they need - specially China.

Have fun zamint3. It would be great if you can find a way to squeeze some additonal speed out of Tsingtao. I think we are about to become the great peacemaker that will justify our selection as UN Secretary General.

Here's a picture of our toy box:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=58853&stc=1

Morning has come and I had nothing but nightmares!! :spear: Unusually pessimistic this morning, Leif :D

Nightmare 1. Everyone now is into Modern Times and, with as many as 35 to 40 turns to play, we probably should keep our eyes out for someone starting to build a spaceship.This lot couldn't build a pony express :hmm:

Nightmare 2. With India as big as it, controlling a larger share of resources, we are probably going to have to continue researching rapidly. We may have to trade India techs to keep our lux supply flowing.They're not so big, and see my suggestions for keeping them out of mischief.
Thoughts. Before we get to use Panzers, we will have Modern Armor, and should think about researching Synthetic Fibers next, just to make sure we can defeat any Mech Inf that show up, although that will be a while, maybe. :rolleyes:You worry too much. I think the AI still has lots of other optional techs to distract them. They haven't produced Democracy yet, or Sanitation - I did wonder whether to go for Sanitation so we could grow our cities bigger, but we needed those other two lux. No one's researched Espionage yet, or Music or Free Artistry.

I think we have to get, in trades, all the Lux there are. We may have to use the lux slider more and slow down research some. We should also think about acquiring Espionage, if we don't have it already, and get the Intelligence Agency built as we need some spies. :cringe:We're currently running at 10% lux tax. We are now only short of gems. We've recently renewed our import deals, so unless someone declares on us we are not in bad shape. Until we know the AI have Space Flight and then Apollo, there's no need to panic. That'll take more time than they've got at their current rate of non-production.

Capt Buttkick - Asked for a skip
zamint3 - UP
Leif Erikson - On deck

Usually I play after Leif. :mischief:

We are right on schedule....
:lol: :lol: That wonder cascade was not exactly on my schedule. I would like to know what Bombay used all those shields for! :lol: :lol:
1. I think maybe I was too greedy taking India's wines after I hooked them up. If I had lived without them maybe Ghandi would have sold them to China and they'd have improved production in Tsingtao with a WLTKD. I'm not sure how to repair that damage :(
We can have the wine near Punjab connected to the rest of the Indian empire in a few turns, but I'm not sure it's enough for WLTK in Tsingtao. :confused:
2. Japan has only seven cities left. If we can protect Japan with a peace-keeping force and give them time to recover they may be able to counterattack in a few turns and take back one or two of India's cities. We could then take them out after the current deals expire (17 turns) and give their cities to China to maybe encourage them to call a vote.
Sounds good. :thumbsup:

I would like to know what Bombay used all those shields for! I was too depressed to look, and in any case I didn't think the cash to investigate was justified. I'd love to think it was a factory and they are about to launch a fast UN build, but I suspect they are building units judging from the steady stream of cavalry that's been moving north past the watchful binculars of our ironclad commander.We can have the wine near Punjab connected to the rest of the Indian empire in a few turns, but I'm not sure it's enough for WLTK in Tsingtao.Yes, I thought of that as I ended my turns then forgot it again. But you're right, happy pills are added to content people first, so one more lux will only get them three pills, leaving two unhappy people. They need those gems as well.

Usually I play after Leif. :mischief:
Do I play now, or should Leif go first as usual?

Usually I play after Leif. :mischief:

Sorry guys! Recompressing the todo list format threw me. Here's the corrected roster:

Capt Buttkick - Asked for a skip
Leif Erikson - UP
zamint3 - On deck
AdrianE
AlanH - Just played

Unusually pessimistic this morning, Leif :D
It is amazing how the random event, as a leader, can turn events. After reading your turn log it seemed to me that someone had programmed this scenario so that everything we had thought of was defeated!! :crazyeye: It was simply an amazing set of turns, that turned us on our head, over again, and back... :wallbash: However, I have gotten refocused and will try to get my thinking cap on. :eek:
This lot couldn't build a pony express :hmm:
There is truth in this but for the RNG. :twitch:

I've got it!!

Is there any reason not to move a force of Panzers, Infantry and Artillery across the sea? Sounds like we have to intervene but workers only present India with too great an opportunity to roll us over. Should India not respect us, we need enough force to protect ourselves. While I would not attack or provoke India, what are the chances of an Indian-China alliance should India declare? :eek: That instance would put the whole game at risk.

I plan to play tomorrow evening so I would appreciate thoughts on these and anything else pro or con moving to the continent right away. :mischief:

I think a strong peace keeping force is required during the next two sets of turns, to try and sustain Japan. After our current deals expire we can turn nasty and deliver cities to China. So having a strong force in place to keep the peace also ensures we are there in numbers when we want to fight.

It occurs to me that if nothing changes in the next 20 turns, we ought to destroy India rather than Japan to give China more territory. We've been thinking of taking out Japan, but India is the better target. We could give China most of India between turns 20 and 30 from now, after our Rop/wines deal with India expires and before they complete the UN. With Japan still a small 7-city state, China might then call the vote.

If India does decide to attack us before the 20 turns are up then it's not our rep that gets hit. We then wipe India out and keep Japan on our side and protect them. I don't think we should ally with China in that situation, as we are hoping to keep them out of the war to prevent a slowdown of the UN build. Should they choose to side with India against us then all is not lost, as we aren't looking for their vote, but a switch to communism wouldn't help our end date.

I also like the idea of a strong force in Japan. I really like your idea concerning India. Should they develop a strong build for the U.N., we will have to relook the situation, but this is the way to go. :goodjob: Glad to see one of us is still thinking. :lol:

I checked MapStat and we are 85 tiles from the doomination limit, so we will have to be careful about ensuring that anything we take is gone before we click that "next turn" button. 85 tiles should give us plenty of "freeboard", although with Panzers, you can take a lot of cities in a turn. Should we find ourselves in a position to take India, we should probably grab any luxs around for ourselves. Still greedy I am! :rockon:

I've completed 5 turns and decided to post to let you see how we're doing. More ups and downs tonight. In the first turn, India started a U.N. build. The screen shots will be posted separately. India appeared to be back into mobilization. 4 turns later, they were out again. The bottom line is that India is way out of the wonder build, so we should prepare to take them out.

Pre-flight.
Wake 20 Panzers and 4 Artillery, move them to New Bonn and load them into the 3 available transports there for a trip to Japan.
Press enter.

IBT
Japan has several Infantry fall to Cavalry.
We are informed that India is building the U.N., Hooray, maybe!?!?
We have pollution in New Bremen

Turn 261 – 1355 AD
Press F7 and find out that India is building the U.N. in Jaipur.
Pay 128 Gold to investigate Jaipur and find out that India is still in Communism and Jaipur is not well developed at all. India must be back in Mobilization because there are 12 shields showing on the map and 23 showing in the production box. I took a screen shot and will post it soon. I decide to move workers to Jaipur to improve the terrain and see what the results are, although I calculate the results to be about a plus 8 to 12 gain in shields minus 40% corruption. Net gain should be about 5 to 7 shields. That would bring the build time to about 50 turns. Right now, Tsingtao should be about 28 or 29 turns, but we could use the backup. It looks like India’s fate is sealed and I’ll deploy for the destruction of India.
Divert two transports of workers towards Jaipur.
Deploy workers in Japan and India to work some squares and make roadblocks with the rest.
Awaken more Panzers and send them to Hastings, board transport and move towards Tsingtao.

IBT
Discover Computers, set research to Rocketry as it is required to show Aluminum on the map and that is needed for Modern Armor. Research rate remains at 60%, Rocketry in 5 turns.
York builds Iron Works – Mech Infantry
Indian Ironclad bombards and destroys rails near Nagoya.

Turn 262 – 1360 AD
Change Berlin from U.N. to SETI Program
Change core cities from whatever they are producing to Research Lab.
Change Nuremberg from Panzer to Carrier.
Move workers around.
Land Panzers near Kyoto.
Upgrade 33 Infantry in Berlin to Mech Infantry at a cost of 20 Gold each

IBT
Lots of Research Labs.

Turn 263 – 1365 AD
Deploy Panzers in Northwestern Japan.

IBT
Japan got a leader because I watched an Army form in Dacca.
Indians sink a Japanese Galleon.

Turn 264 – 1370 AD
Continue to move Panzers and Mech Infantry to Japan and China.
The India – Japan war has essentially stopped with no more losses of Japanese cities.
Change research slider to 50%, Rocketry still in 2. Research labs have helped.
Our military is getting large now and costing us a lot of Gold to maintain.

IBT
Indian Ironclads continue to bombard Japanese cities.

Turn 265 – 1375 AD
Keep moving military units overseas.
With modifications completed, investigate Jaipur to check effects for 128 Gold.
That finishes India as they have ended their Mobilization and, with the improvements, they are producing 20 shields gross, 12 net, U.N. in 72 turns

Sorry, can't keep my eyes open any longer, to be continues tomorrow night. :sleep:
<< 1375 Save >> (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Xteam_SG002_AD1375_01.SAV)

edit - We are capable of rapidly building any military unit we want. Is there any reason to keep 63 Cavalry around when we can build almost that many Panzers in short order? We should at least consider disbanding units in line with the number we build each turn. Maintenance is becoming expensive. It has been staved of a little by building Research Labs in the core to take the pressure off the Gold supply.

Here are the screen shots for Jaipur in 1355 AD and 1375 AD. This mobilization, if that is what it is, sure seems to have a mind of its own?! :crazyeye:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/XMEN_Jaipur_1355AD.jpg
Please notice that some of the citizens changed the squares they were working.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/XMEN_Jaipur_1375AD.jpg

edit - changed from attachments to the old way of linking the screen shots. Couldn't get the attachments to appear in the window, you had to call them up in separate windows.

Thanks for the update Leif. Hope you slept well. India certainly looks to have nominated itself for extermination. The only way they are a candidate builder is if they get a Leader. You seem to have the peacekeeping force well installed, but could we find any way to permit some limited fighting to help the Indians to get a leader?

Re cavalry, I agree, it looks as if they are pretty well obsolete now. Apart from saving on their maintenance, how much do we get for disbanding them?

Good Morning, a good night's sleep and ready to neuter the Indians!! :lol:

We get 20 shields per cav we disband. That gives us over 1200 shields worth of production, nice for rushing some of the aqueducts and marketplaces around the empire, or if we think we need Battleships or some other expensive unit. Nice savings account!! :cool:

Nagoya is size 11 and has some infantry for defense. I could open up a limited window for India to attack it as there are several Cav in the area, and they should be defeated because of the city size and fortified modifiers. I have watched Inidan Cav attack Japanese Inf on hills and win the last several turns, but, should India prevail, we'll just take it and give it back to Japan, when the time is right. :mischief:

I was trying to think about the consequences of India getting a leader and rushing the U.N. and can't think of any downside. If the vote is called, the worst it could be is a 2 to 2 tie, Germany and Japan versus India and China. At best, we would win as China is Gracious towards us and Japan is at war with India.

We now have the forces on the continent, or on the way, to take India down. The only tactical problem will be the chokepoints, but I have tried to place forces all around. Northern India still has a lot of jungle that will slow us down, but it shouldn't be a big problem. Almost time for the War Paint. :devil2:

I don't believe we should sell techs anymore not even for luxuries. There is no need for the AI's to get any better military units from us. If we must buy a lux pay cash for it.

I don't mind disbanding the cavs as long as we have a garrison unit in every city. We don't want to tempt the AI into declaring war. It would be most inconvenient at this time.

We can fight a war with India without actually getting involved ourselves. We can section of part of the continent with a line of units and let the japanese take those cities on their side of the line. Then we can move the line. As it stands right now it, when China builds the UN who will be on the ballot? Germany, China for sure but will India qualify? How much territory would Japan need to take to remove India from the ballot box?

If you are going to declare war on India, get ALL units outside of their territory. We can't afford a blown reputation now.

I don't believe we should sell techs anymore not even for luxuries. There is no need for the AI's to get any better military units from us. If we must buy a lux pay cash for it.agreed.

I don't mind disbanding the cavs as long as we have a garrison unit in every city. We don't want to tempt the AI into declaring war. It would be most inconvenient at this time.I'm not sure we need a unit in every city. I usually reckon on having a dozen fast units to kill any invaders. I think the AI counts total unit strength when deciding whether to declare, and doesn't look at where they are.

As it stands right now it, when China builds the UN who will be on the ballot? Germany, China for sure but will India qualify? How much territory would Japan need to take to remove India from the ballot box?None. It's done on population. A third name only gets on the ballot paper if they have 25% of world population. I'd be very surprised if any of the AI civs have 25%. BUt in my view the safest bet is to eliminate India entirely before the vote. Then we only have to keep Japan on our side and there's no risk of a 2-2 stalemate.

We don't need Japan to have much more territory. If we give all India's cities to China they are more likely to feel strong enough to call the vote when they build the UN. Japan maybe just needs a couple of cities as bribes. All we want from them is their vote.

If you are going to declare war on India, get ALL units outside of their territory. We can't afford a blown reputation now.We can't declare on India for another 15 turns as of 1375 AD because of the wines deal. If they choose to declare on us then that's fine. We take them out.

We now have the forces on the continent, or on the way, to take India down. The only tactical problem will be the chokepoints, but I have tried to place forces all around. Northern India still has a lot of jungle that will slow us down, but it shouldn't be a big problem. Almost time for the War Paint. :devil2:
Just to emphasise Adrian's points: War paint has to wait until our deals expire in 15 turns - 1450 AD. And all units must be off Indian soil when we declare. We need Japan's vote, and we can't afford any rep hit.

Just to emphasise Adrian's points: War paint has to wait until our deals expire in 15 turns - 1450 AD. And all units must be off Indian soil when we declare. We need Japan's vote, and we can't afford any rep hit.
I fully understand this and should have said that it was time to begin mixing the war paint colors in preparation for painting one's self!! :D Unless, of course, India starts feeling froggy and jumps ugly with us. :p

The only question I have is if we can gift cities that are in resistance as I have not tried this yet. Of course, the point is that if we can not, it will slow down the pace of giving India to China and we have to account for that. When the vote is called, India must be a memory. ;)

When disbanding Cav, does anyone have any priorities. I thought working on aqueducts and marketplaces would be good in order to get some more score going, as long as we can keep 'em happy.

Just ran Mapstat and we are over the pop requirement by 93 pop points. Population point totals by civ are:
Germany 882
India 141
China 109
Japan 51
Total 1183

As you can see, no other civ is close to the 25% needed. India is just over 10%. To get to 25%, a civ would need, as of this turn, 296 pop. They barely make it added together.

For the record, we are 83 tiles from the domination limit. :cool: India has 395 tiles, China has 262 and Japan has 155. We have a total of 1558 and there are 91 unclaimed.

edit - I should also add that I am honored that my teamates think I am ready to go to war at the drop of the hat. :nono: Hey Captain, looks like I am no longer a builder!! :borg: Assimilation is the only option! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

15 turns from 1375 will put me in the panzer leaders seat.

Please build some airports in our mainland. With Smith's they will not cost maintenance. I'll rush an airport and barracks in the first city we capture to act as our base. Then the reinforcing tanks and MI can be airlifted in.

For style points do we want to try a simultaneous space/UN/domination win? That should be achievable from our current position.

Alan - the AI regards an ungarrisoned city as a tempting target. They are often willing to start a war they can't win to grab an undefended city. Why tempt them? Garrison every city and leave nothing to chance. We can afford it.

15 turns from 1375 will put me in the panzer leaders seat.

Please build some airports in our mainland. With Smith's they will not cost maintenance. I'll rush an airport and barracks in the first city we capture to act as our base. Then the reinforcing tanks and MI can be airlifted in.
Good point. Much easier and faster than shipping.

For style points do we want to try a simultaneous space/UN/domination win? That should be achievable from our current position. Sounds cool, let's try it as long as it doesn't involve any delay in our Diplo victory.

Alan - the AI regards an ungarrisoned city as a tempting target. They are often willing to start a war they can't win to grab an undefended city. Why tempt them? Garrison every city and leave nothing to chance. We can afford it. I've never garrisoned the homeland and never had a problem once I owned the continent, and reached a dominant position in the game, but I bow to superior knowledge. At our rate of production w don't even need a standing army at home, as the flow of units would ensure that we have sufficient to repel invaders just using our work in progress.

The only civs who might go for us are India or China. India we don't care about - if they declare we kill them sooner.

China would hurt because it might slow their UN build and prevent us from monitoring their build rate. But we could just bat off their invasions and not actively pursue them, hoping that they would not drop into Communism. We don't care about their attitude as they'll be our UN opposition, but we wouldn't be able to make peace within 9 turns of the UN completion, as we would then have to break the treaty if we have to capture the UN 11 turns later to force the vote.

@Leif: Good point about gifting cities in resistance. Do we know if this is possible? If we are stuck with them we'll have to watch the domination limit.

OK, Here it is!! The final 5 turns.
edit - Unfortunately, not of the game, but of my set of turns, sorry about that. After I posted and read it, I was afraid it would be misinterpreted.

Turn 265 – 1375 AD
Keep moving military units overseas.
With modifications completed, investigate Jaipur to check effects for 128 Gold.
That finishes India as they have ended their Mobilization and, with the improvements, they are producing 20 shields gross, 12 net, U.N. in 72 turns
Per our discussion on the boards, I am opening up a path for India to attack Nagoya and a path for any generated leaders to return to India’s city of Jaipur. Tracing the roads, the Chinese have the chokepoint blocked at Shimonoseki, preventing any GL from getting to Jaipur, but we’ll try it and see what happens.

IBT
The Indians continue to bombard Japanese cities.
The Chinese moved their block at the chokepoint and immediately, Indian Cav poured through the point, observed by our ironclad. At least 10 units moved north.
Indian Cav attacked Nagoya and were defeated.
Surprise, Japan attacked Punjab and took it!

Turn 266 – 1380 AD
We sent so many workers over to the other continent, we are having trouble keeping up with pollution. As I transport military units over, I am going to bring some workers back to our side of the seas.
Set in place a block with worker near Osaka to prevent too many Cav from getting to Nagoya. All the Indian reinforcements are Vets, so no leader potential there yet, and 15 Cav at once is not a good omen for Nagoya. The path is open to the Dacca area, let’s see what happens.
Change production in New Hamburg to Marketplace and disband 2 Cav there.
Change production in new Cologne to Marketplace and disband 1 Cav there.
Change production in New Slazburg to marketplace and disband 3 Cav there.
China has Democracy but demands a tech for it, so I ignored them.

IBT
The Indians can not seem to break the Japanese Infantry and are defeated in their attempt to take Nagoya. Perhaps I should allow more Cav through?
We discover the secret of Rocketry and begin the study of Synthetic Fibers, 6 turns at 50%, going to 60% means 5 turns but a loss of 51 GPT.
Our palace expands because we are so cool!

Turn 267 – 1385 AD
Lots of movement of Panzers, Artillery and Mech Inf. Around.

IBT
The Indians take Punjab back by seaborne assault.
The Indians take and destroy Nagoya, but paid a price for it.

Turn 268 – 1390 AD
Continue movement of Military units to south China area.
Workers everywhere, pollution is under control.

IBT
Nothing of note

Turn 269 – 1395 AD
Disband some more Cavalry.

IBT
Nothing of Note

Turn 270 – 1400 AD
There is a full transport near Marseilles.
I try to set up the carriers with 1 fighter and 3 bombers, I transferred the fighters to Rheims and New Berlin for upgrade to jet fighters. There are some carriers that do not yet have their planes.

After Action Report
There are a lot of workers on the other continent. The game will not allow us to chop or cut jungle, so the workers are blocking or trying to make their way through the jungles with roads.
NOTE: Probably for Adrian – There are workers everywhere. You have to double check to make sure they are all out of Indian territory before declaring war. The military units are mostly in stacks or protecting Japanese cities, not hard to find. There are a number of airports already constructed in our homeland. If you are going to establish a base, please consider one with wines or gems as this will make our life less expensive. Also, if you rush a barracks, you can upgrade a whole bunch of Panzers to Modern Armor, if you think you will need them....

SETI is due in 1 turn. We are 3 turns from Synthetic Fibers at 50% research rate. Have had no problem with happiness. Military is becoming quite large and maintenance is getting expensive, now at 447 GPT. Some cav were disbanded, but the coastal cities still have cav in them to discourage any wandering unfriendlies. Speaking of which, the Chinese have a bunch of riders on the island to our west and have been demonstrating their skills during these turns. A transport is headed for New Stuttgart where I intended to load up some Mech Inf and take them to our 3 cities for insurance. That move is up to Zamint.

Japan and India still at war but really don’t have much contact because I wouldn’t let them. I tried Alan’s suggestion of allowing some fighting to spawn a Great Leader, but Japan lost another city and they don’t have many left, so I stopped it. Any questions, please let me know. As always Zamint, please feel free to change anything you think needs to be done. Good luck!!

<< The Save >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Xteam_SG002_AD1400_01.SAV)

Looks good Leif. :goodjob:

I loaded the save and investigated Tsingtao :

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Tsingtao_1400_AD.jpg

It looks like switching to Democracy slowed them down just a bit.


We have ROP deals expiring:
In 2 turns China and in 7 turns Japan, these we'll renew!
In 4 turns India, this one we wont renew, because we'll take out India before the first vote.
Is this correct? :confused:

Originally Posted by leif erikson
The only question I have is if we can gift cities that are in resistance
No problem, I've done that. :)

Originally Posted by AdrianE
Please build some airports in our mainland. With Smith's they will not cost maintenance. I'll rush an airport and barracks in the first city we capture to act as our base. Then the reinforcing tanks and MI can be airlifted in.
Will placing a city close to Indian territory hurt our rep with Japan and China?
If not we could establish a base before the war with India.

We have ROP deals expiring:
In 2 turns China and in 7 turns Japan, these we'll renew!
In 4 turns India, this one we wont renew, because we'll take out India before the first vote.
Is this correct? :confused:
Yes, this is basically correct. The Indian build in Jaipur is way behind this at last check. Unless India gets a leader and finishes earlier, India should be taken down and China and Japan preserved. We would want to give most of the Indian cities to China.
edit - iirc, there is a lux deal with India as well and we shouldn't go after them until that deal has expired, unless they come after us first! :mischief:
Will placing a city close to Indian territory hurt our rep with Japan and China?
If not we could establish a base before the war with India.
When the Indians destroyed Nagoya, I thought about doing this on the site but didn't because there was no lux or resource and I didn't want to waste the tiles in the domination limit, plus we have so much force over there that it wouldn't take any time to take anything we wanted (especially lux). :thumbsup: However, the opportuity exists to do that and iirc, our workers have fillied in the space to keep other settlers out.

Good stuff, Leif. I see zamint3 already has it, but here's the roster for old time's sake.

Capt Buttkick
Leif Erikson
zamint3 - UP
AdrianE - On deck
AlanH - Just played

Good news about giving resisting cities. With 85 tiles to go we can take lots of cities before we are in trouble with domination. As long as we are at least one tile below domination we're safe. Unless we build culture or they are close together we can add 9 more altogether. We don't need to reserve space for the Chinese ones we'll take if we have to capture the UN, as we can always abandon one or two just before we do that. I think we are down to half a dozen unclaimed tiles at home, and I don't think we can get any more of them easily, but we can sell off any culture that we built to grab the last lot just to be safe.

I pressed enter once, and here's what happened :

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/India_-_Japan_peace_treaty.jpg

Any thoughts on this?
My plan is to block the hole Indian border with military to prevent a war with China.

It'll be interesting to see what that does to Jaipur. They'll presumably lose mobilisation and switch to a representative government. Corruption will fall, but I guess Jaipur's overall performance won't improve significantly, or at all.

We can still choose to take India down when the time is right, and we can choose whether to ally with Japan at that time. Of course, India may be planning to direct attention to us now.

I think you are right to go and peace-keep on the China-India border, but maybe leave some troops around the Japanese territory as well, in case Ghandi decides to fight them again.

Our deals with India include 10 turns of Gems as at 1400 AD, IIRC. You'll need to move troops to China before the Indian RoP expires.

I think you are right to go and peace-keep on the China-India border, but maybe leave some troops around the Japanese territory as well, in case Ghandi decides to fight them again.

Our deals with India include 10 turns of Gems as at 1400 AD, IIRC. You'll need to move troops to China before the Indian RoP expires.

There are stacks of troops along the China-India border now, all on rails so that they can be moved quickly. In anticipation of taking India down, strong panzer forces with Mech Inf and Artillery support are located south of Delhi and Bombay. There are also forces on transports headed to southern China. In addition, there are at least 16 to 25 units in the north near the chokepoint of Shimonoseki that could be moved wherever needed. They were placed there to protect Chinese interests and provide control of the chokepoint for us if needed.

Alan, it looks like your "Peacekeeping" force did more than I expected! :goodjob:

Not to be too warmongerish :rolleyes: , but I think it would be smart to block India from attacking China or Japan. After we assess Jaipur, which I don't think is going to help us, but one never knows, perhaps peaceful Ghandi will come after us. I would prefer he do so in his empire instead of our homeland, although it doesn't make that much difference. Once we have China protected, perhaps we should think about allying with them against India to see if that mobilization might kick in for Tsingtao?? :hmm: Or another thought, perhaps we should leave a small part of China vulnerable, say Shimonoseki, and see if India attacks them. If so, when agreements expire or India involves us, we can join China, without an alliance, ally with Japan, and then kick India's butt. That puts us in a good position for China to call a vote. India gone, China in mobilization and with India's former holdings, and Japan allied with us. Just another crazy idea..... :crazyeye:

... and then kick India's butt.
Hey! I've got the legal rights for buttkicking around here :cool:

Hey! I've got the legal rights for buttkicking around here :cool:
Oooppps!! Sorry about that... :smug:

Just feeling my new found inner warmongering self, I guess!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hey! I've got the legal rights for buttkicking around here :cool:I believe that the team automatically inherits and shares these rights as long as you are a member? I'm not sure of the historical legal precedent for this, but I hope you'll grant us temporary rights to it for the purposes of India's imminent destruction, without the need for a long drawn out and costly court battle. :joke:

Perhaps we could come to an arrangement where you're all allowed to Kick butt(tm).

Here's a proposed license for the XTeam to do some official Buttkicking(tm):
1.1 This Buttkicking(tm) lisence is an agreement between Capt Buttkick(tm)(propriotor) and the XTeam (subsiduates).
1.2 All Xteam members will agree to the license or no Buttkicking(tm) license will be in effect.
1.3 All Buttkicking(tm) done in this or any other sgotm is allowed with expressed referrence to this agreement acknowledging my legal rights to the term.
1.4 This license is not transferrable. Leaving the team will result in your license being revoked and offered to the substitute team member. The substitute member can disagree to the licensing agreement and thus end the Buttkicking(tm) license, effectively for all XTeam members.
In no way are you allowed to go Buttkick(tm) for any other team. Likewise, no Buttkicking(tm) should take place if I leave the team. However, your rights will not be withdrawn without prior notice from the propriotor.
1.5 You agree and understand that all Buttkicking(tm) is done as part of a non-profit, charitable organization; ridding the world of the evil Indians, for instance.

2.1 Definitions:
Sgotm - A bimonthly Civilization 3 competition on the Civfanatics.com forums involving team play as opposed to the individual Gotm.
XTeam - One of the sgotm teams, leaded by AlanH and with at least Capt Buttkick(tm) as a member.
Buttkicking(tm) - Taking the :hammer: to the AI, ending their misery.

3.1 Disclaimer:
This license is a right to attempt Buttkicking(tm). The license does not imply that all and any attempts at Buttkicking(tm) will be succcesful. Capt Buttkick(tm) is not to be held responsible for any Buttkicking(tm) attempts, unless the propriotor himself has either instigated or encouraged the Buttkicking(tm).

[pimp]

Perhaps we could come to an arrangement where you're all allowed to Kick butt(tm).

Here's a proposed license for the XTeam to do some official Buttkicking(tm)

[pimp]
Well, you clearly feel you have us over a barrel, and are attempting to exercise your copyright on our butts from a position of strength. I guess we'll just have to accede to your totally unreasonable and excessive monopolistic demands in the interests of the greater good ... for now!

However, please be advised that I intend to develop a competitive product, under the trademarks "X-Terminate [TM]" and related parts of speech, to be offered under an Open Source agreement. Just as soon as the bugs are ironed out this amazing product will be offered free at the point of use, for the benefit of all civ-kind.

Sorry, I didn't mean to get all Microsoft on you :p


Or maybe I did, easiest way to get to Alan :lol:
Yanking your foot of course :joke:

Or maybe I did, easiest way to get to Alan :lol:
Yanking your foot of course :joke:
I'm very happy to see that we don't have to compensate you 200 Euros for the pleasure of using your monopolistic license. This game would have cost plenty for all the booting that's been going on around here!! :cooool: And Alan, I am looking forward to your new product "X-terminate", very :rockon:

I only hope that Zamint is having as much fun as we are?? :hmm:

... compensate you 200 Euros ...
Would that be a 'per-seat' license, I wonder? ;)

'per-seat' license
Better 'per-seat' than 'per-cheek', as it were???? :rolleyes:

Double your Pleasure, sir?

This game thread has the highest post count. I wonder why that could be Mr. Moderator? :shakehead

Now then, m-b. This is serious team building/bonding stuff. You know, where companies send staff off to build towers out of matchsticks, or bridges over crocodile-infested rivers for three days as a break from the daily grind? :rolleyes:

Actually, I did think of adding a statistic to the submissions summary giving turns per thread-post, sort of an index of team interaction, or team dissention :mischief:

This game thread has the highest post count. I wonder why that could be Mr. Moderator? :shakehead
The rest of this thread has been serious business M-B?!?! :rolleyes: We've been working real hard since you left, Honest we have.

We're just waiting for our mate to overcome the stress of succession gaming. It's tough, sweating out these turns you know!!

I hope you have read the rest of this and have seen the thought that has gone into your variant choice. It has been an interesting problem and I'm not sure if we will ever resolve it, but we'll sure keep trying!! :p

BTW - Hope you had a good time.. :D

Here you go. Posts per turn:

Tao: 0.61
Alamo: 1.06
Kuningas: 1.02
Peanut: 1.04
Offa: 1.09
Staff: 1.22
DGIT: 1.26
Akots: 1.32
Handy: 1.33
Bugsy: 1.56
Scout: 1.88
Ankka: 2.08
Xteam: 2.22

We are the champions ... but not by such an enormous margin. And the last few OT posts don't account for the difference :D

We are the champions ... but not by such an enormous margin. And the last few OT posts don't account for the difference :D
:goodjob: Alan!!!! :lol: :lol:

This made me take a look at the stats on the SGOTM start thread. The views column says 5,594. Looks like some lurkers are checking us out, and this stat is much higher than the others. So, M-B, someone appreciates our jabbering!! :crazyeye:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

edit - I hope Zamint is alright, haven't heard for a while. Its not like him. :confused:

edit - I hope Zamint is alright, haven't heard for a while. Its not like him. :confused:Yes, it's quiet .. too quiet!

I'm sure he's OK. The turns take ages at this stage - so much to check and worry about. He's only been up for 36 hours, it just seems longer when you're waiting ... and wondering ...

Um, I wasn't lurking, honest. :-)
as one of the many fans of X-Team I would just like to say bl on the cascade plan. I'd been reading your early warmongering with interest (it's an area of my game i'm trying to improve) and when the wars finished I thought ah well, it'll all be building from here. Then AlanH (i think) suggested the cascade to the UN plan and I thought, man these guys are hardcore! :)
I've been reading with keen interest ever since to see if you could pull it off, was a sad morning when I logged on and saw you had been ripped off by a GL. Anyway, all the best with the revised plan, I'm waiting eagerly to see how it goes. :goodjob:

The Nemesis.

Thanks, TheNemesis666. It's good to hear we are entertaining others as well as ourselves.

I only hope that Zamint is having as much fun as we are?? :hmm:

I sure am, cleaning up pollution really rocks. :cry:

Lol @ zamint
Good to hear from you anyway.

@Nemsis: Thanks, but I wouldn't consider myself hardcore. But I realize I play a LOT better in succession games due to three factors:
1) You're forced to log every turn, effectively slowing the progress way down so there's less of the "Oooops, did I just press enter?" - mistakes.
2) You feel an obligation to the team so you put an effort into micromanaging. I MM'ed every city every turn for a long while. This also effects trading with the AI.
3) I usually find that 10 turns is about as long as I can stay really focused anyway. I'm starting to play shorter intervals in my other games as well.

Also, not to be underestimated: the value of a well working team. No idea is too stupid to put forward and we build on each other's ideas. I think in this way this team has been really good.

Here you go. Posts per turn:

Tao: 0.61
Alamo: 1.06
Kuningas: 1.02
Peanut: 1.04
Offa: 1.09
Staff: 1.22
DGIT: 1.26
Akots: 1.32
Handy: 1.33
Bugsy: 1.56
Scout: 1.88
Ankka: 2.08
Xteam: 2.22


This is really, very sad. You do know that don't you? :p

Are you going to add this as an automatically extracted statistic on the results page? :rolleyes:

I sure am, cleaning up pollution really rocks. :cry:Yeah :(
At this stage it's worth having a few worker stacks that are just waiting for pollution to hit. If you make them the right size (6?) you can move one team in to clean open ground in a single turn, two to clean a hill and three to clean a mountain. Use J to get them onto the tile (usually railed or at least roaded)) and six quick control-C's to do the job. The really annoying thing is having to go into the city and reassign citizens to the cleaned tiles.

This is really, very sad. You do know that don't you? :pAbsolutely not! This is very interesting sociological research. I could probably get a lottery grant (UK in-joke) to pursue this line of investigation.:rolleyes:

Are you going to add this as an automatically extracted statistic on the results page? :rolleyes:might :mischief:

Thanks Nemesis!! You should try participating as the amount you learn is amazing, always trying to think of a way to exploit the situation. :mischief:

Also, not to be underestimated: the value of a well working team. No idea is too stupid to put forward and we build on each other's ideas. I think in this way this team has been really good.
I agree with you completely. I really enjoy the give and take, as well as having to explain why you think something will work a certain way. Of course, you're not always right and we are not bashful about setting it right. Makes one think about the mechanics of the game, which sometimes seems more important than the strategy.

Very happy to hear from you this morning Zamint!! :goodjob: [dance] Sorry you are having a rough time with the pollution, it had just started during my time. Finding it was a hard part for me, as the game blows by it during the inter-turn. If you use the new version of Dianthus' CivReplay MapStat, it has a column that will tell you which cities have pollution. Hope that helps, but perhaps there is so much that you can't miss it!! :help:

I was glad I didn't see too much pollution, trying to load all those units and get them moved. [ptw] is much easier to use when moving large numbers of units around.

Sorry you are having a rough time with the pollution
Thanks for your concern guys! ;)
It's not that bad, I have 8-10 workers on stand by, but i haven't build Mass Transit anywhere yet! :)

I'll be done shortly! :cool:

Here you go. Posts per turn:
Tao: 0.61
And you have to consider that we played for most of the time with just 3 people. One "team member" resigned before starting and a second one just was active for a single turn and then was never heard of again. This reduced the between turns discussion significantly.

And you have to consider that we played for most of the time with just 3 people. One "team member" resigned before starting and a second one just was active for a single turn and then was never heard of again. This reduced the between turns discussion significantly.
Well, you just weren't trying! You should have made up for it by talking to yourself :p :joke:

Seriously, that was tough luck. I hope the guys that went AWOL from your team are suitably apologetic, and come to realise what they missed.

I did say this index could be interpreted in several different ways. It'll be interesting to see how the different teams used the threads when we eventually get to where we can look at them all.

Turnlog SGotm 2, zamint3
1400 AD Preflight
Investigate Tsingtao, UN complete in 23 turns
Slider down to 0 lux, hire a few extra entertainers.

IBT:
India and Japan signs a peace treaty.

1405 AD Turn 1 :
Workers are laying rail in India, they should be able to finish before the ROP expires.
Full land blokade of Indian border.
Rush an airport at Heidelberg 3

1410 AD Turn 2 :
Building airports.
Airlifted a few panzers and mech. inf. to Heidelberg 3.

IBT :
We are informed that the Japanes are building the UN.
We research Synthetic Fibers and start on Space Flight at 60% = 5 turns.

1415 AD Turn 3 :
Investigate Kyoto for 146 g. UN in 50 turns.
Trade Gems + 55 g from the Japanese for Ecology, Horses, Furs, Incense and Spices.

1420 AD Turn 4 :
Joining workers to our cities.

IBT:
Our ROP and dyes deal with India expires.
Lux up to 10%

1425 AD Turn 5 :
Forgot some workers in India, they got kicked out, but Ghandi is still polite.

1430 AD Turn 6 :

1435 AD Turn 7 :

IBT :
We trade silks + ROP with China for ivory, spices, iron, uranium, rubber, WM and 221 g. (No tech)
We discover Space Flight and start researching satellites at 59% = 5 turns.

1440 AD Turn 8 :

1445 AD Turn 9 :

IBT :
Apollo Program completed in New Berlin.
Our wines deal with India expired, this hurts, set slider to 20% lux.

1450 AD Turn 10 :
We are building spaceship parts.
Indian borders expanded and some of our troops got caught in Indian territory.

Status :
Score : 4535, Treasury : 1941, net gain : 91 gpt
Research : Satellites in 3 turns at 50%.
Worker count down to 54.
I’ve stopped building in a lot of cities , I can’t see what more we need. It’s gonna be a total overkill
when the war starts.

We have a prebuild in New Bremen (palace in 15) and in Frankfurt (UN in 20)
I investigated Tsingtao, Kyoto and Jaipur again, I couldn’t resist :D , screenshots below.

Our top contender :
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Tsingtao_1450_AD.jpg

and the Japanese runner up :
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Kyoto_1450_AD.jpg

and last :
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jaipur_1450_AD.jpg

Thanks, zamint3 :goodjob: A brief turnlog, but I suspect it summarises an enormous amount of tedious detailed work. Well done.

So, we are close to the final approach run. UN in 13 turns in Tsingtao.

Here's a time-tabled roster to focus our minds again:

Turn 280 1450 AD AdrianE - UP
Start Indian conquest with a clean DoW, grab the wines asap
Turn 285 1475 AD Conquer India - probably only needs 3 or 4 turns?
Turn on cruise control and watch the speedo
Turn 290 1500 AD AlanH - On deck
Turn 293 1515 AD End of turn - UN completed, vote called and we win
OR
Turn 300 1550 AD Capt Buttkick or skip to Leif Erikson?
Turn 303 1565 AD Latest date to capture Tsingtao and the UN.
Bribe Japan one last time
Turn 304 1570 AD End of turn - We call the vote and we win

Any last brainstorms on how we can maximise the chances of China calling the vote in 1515 AD?

Nice set of turns Zamint. :goodjob: Your timing of the ROP with China looks good. The screen shot of Jaipur is interesting, as soon as we left, the Indians reworked the squares and irrigated them all?? :eek: Good thing we don't have to rely on India.

Looks like the Buttkick ;) in India could start almost any time. We have 13 turns to do it, looks like it'll take 3 or 4. :lol: I'll get the warpaint mixed up for Adrian.

Good luck Adrian, let the Teutonic Knights march forth on their armoured steeds! :salute: :hammer:

This is a got it.

What is our map stat situation? How many tiles away from domination are we?

Conquered Indian cities get donated to China after we loot them. I might give a few away to Japan too.

What do we want to do with any leaders?

We have 82 tiles until we trigger domination.

There is no problem giving some cities to Japan, but we would like the majority to go to China in the hope that, with greater pop, they may try for a vote upon completion of the U.N. :king:

Leaders, that is an interesting question. I would have to think about it some more but the easy answer is to use them for anything that will incease our score. Cure for Cancer makes one unhappy citizen content in all our cities, once we get Genetics researched. I can think of no more noble cause than that!! :lol:

Good luck, it shouldn't take long... :mischief:

This is a got it.

What is our map stat situation? How many tiles away from domination are we?

Conquered Indian cities get donated to China after we loot them. I might give a few away to Japan too.

What do we want to do with any leaders?
Having looked at the save, I don't think India will last more than a couple of turns once our modern armour engines fire up, but we might as well get it over and done with. As we are still quite a few tiles away from domination, we could keep six or seven cities before handing them on to China. Help to accelerate our score. I don't think we can catch Kuningas now, but we ought to try to maximise it and get as high as possible on the leader board.

I'm not sure what we can use leaders for right now. Maybe build a Mass Transit system in our highest pollution city to ease the clearance work load?
The AI have been useless at research, I see, they've not even managed Sanitation yet, so we can't build hospitals to boost pop.

The AI have been useless at research, I see, they've not even managed Sanitation yet, so we can't build hospitals to boost pop.
If it will help us to boost our score some, why don't we research Sanitation and get some hospitals built? We are free to research whatever we need now that the U.N. build is underway.

If we have. or can grab, the lux we need to keep them happy - yes. I'm not sure how much pop increase we can achieve in the remaining turns, but we ought to try.

Re: Roster
It all depends on how long the next turns take.
I'm hoping to be done with the budgeting process in a week's time. Anyway, if Alan only need three turns til we win, I'm all for letting our Great Leader (yes, the capitalization is intentional :)) doing the honour :hatsoff:

@Capt Buttkick: I'm guessing Adrian will play this weekend. He'll destroy India in a couple of turns and then build score for eight turns. Then I'll play ten peaceful builder turns trying to maximise score rate, during which China won't call the vote, probably finishing by Monday or Tuesday. There will then be a further four turns during which we capture Tsingtao and call the next vote. Four extra turns sounds a bit greedy for me to play, so if you are still going to be in budget hell for the rest of the week I'll pass it on for Leif to finish off.

A reminder: Adrian suggested a multiple win target for extra style marks and bragging rights. It's a great suggestion, I'm all for it, and it should be a piece of cake. We could set up for conquest by positioning our troops to be capable of capturing all remaining Chinese and Japanese cities, or to take all but one for domination. The vote's 13 turns from now if the Chinese call it, or 24 turns from now if we call it, and we only need three more techs and four builds for a spaceship. So if we have to wait the 24 turns space should be possible as well, even if we research Sanitation and Genetics first for extra score.

@Capt Buttkick: I'm guessing Adrian will play this weekend. He'll destroy India in a couple of turns and then build score for eight turns. Then I'll play ten peaceful builder turns trying to maximise score rate, during which China won't call the vote, probably finishing by Monday or Tuesday. There will then be a further four turns during which we capture Tsingtao and call the next vote. Four extra turns sounds a bit greedy for me to play, so if you are still going to be in budget hell for the rest of the week I'll pass it on for Leif to finish off.
Thanks Alan, but, as with the Capt, I have no objection to you finishing if you would like. :king:
A reminder: Adrian suggested a multiple win target for extra style marks and bragging rights. It's a great suggestion, I'm all for it, and it should be a piece of cake. We could set up for conquest by positioning our troops to be capable of capturing all remaining Chinese and Japanese cities, or to take all but one for domination. The vote's 13 turns from now if the Chinese call it, or 24 turns from now if we call it, and we only need three more techs and four builds for a spaceship. So if we have to wait the 24 turns space should be possible as well, even if we research Sanitation and Genetics first for extra score.
The other advantage here is that, with multiple finishes, I think I heard M-B say that the Jason score we would earn would be the highest one of the victory conditions we could achieve. I would think that best date for Spaceship would be later than Diplo, so a better Jason? So, it could be more than style points for us. :cool:

edit - just visited the Jason calculator and, to my surprise, Diplo score was higher?? So much for my theories!? :lol:

Brief report

I played for 4.5 hours this morning - and got 1 turn done.

India is a shadow of its former self. Alan 4 turns was a wildly pessimistic estimate.
India had cavalry, riflemen and spearmen. No I didn't lose any tanks to spearmen.
Total losses were about 5 panzers.

The only reason I didn't conquer India in 1 turn is that Bengal has a ring of hills and jungle around it.

These are the cities I'm going to keep:
Punjab for the wines
Chittagong for the dyes
Dehli for the silks, Sun Tsu's and its in bomber range of Tsingtao
and may keep the town with magellans.

I might keep Bengal too as it has iron and coal - strictly to deny coal to China.

A couple of points: why did we build regular panzers and MI? They will be disbanded to help pay for improvements.
Why are we selling China Uranium and Rubber?

I teleported a large number of workers home by placing them in cities I gifted to China. Pollution should be easier to control at home.

An intensive turn. Good work :goodjob:

Check my latest posts. My recent estimates, after looking at the save, was two turns to close out India :D

The regular panzers were probably built without checking that the cities building them had barracks. The regular MI may have been upgraded rifles, rushed to protect the islands, then mass upgrades did the rest. Is it really a big issue in our current position? Put it all down to me, if you're looking for someone to point fingers at.

I don't take credit for selling rubber and Uranium to China, but we want them to feel strong and secure so I don't think it's a problem. If we do a good job of that they'll call the vote in 12 turns time, saving us the trouble and delay of taking Tsingtao and calling the vote 11 turns later. If we do have to take Tsingtao, surely we have enough hardware on station to do the job several times over, regardless of what resources they have? if you were worried about our ability to hold Tsingtao you probably wouldn't be disbanding regular MI :hmm:

Neat trick with the workers :thumbsup:

Brief report

I played for 4.5 hours this morning - and got 1 turn done.
Lots to do!! :D Sounds like it was done well too. :goodjob: Thanks for the short report.
A couple of points: why did we build regular panzers and MI? They will be disbanded to help pay for improvements.
Why are we selling China Uranium and Rubber?

I teleported a large number of workers home by placing them in cities I gifted to China. Pollution should be easier to control at home.
I noticed there were a number of regular units as well, and I am sure I built few of them. I didn't question it because I figured we were saving gold on barracks maintenance, we weren't fishing for leaders and that, given our strength and superiority in tech, that it didn't really make much difference. Besides, it looks like you found a good use for them, saving Gold for bribes.

I think the Rubber and Uranium were traded to China for lux and as a hedge against India invading them. To build nukes requires aluminium, to have aluminium requires that you have researched Rocketry. Don't give China Rocketry and we have nothing to worry about! ;)

I played a bit more and did some re-organizing. In Delhi area we have 10 elite panzers (kept because they are elite), 10 elite MA, 20 regular MA, 20 MI and about 30 artillery backed up by 10 bombers. Should be enough to take and hold the UN. I'll send over more MI just to be sure.

I decided to get sanitation so we can really boost score. That will mean every big city will need a market, temple and cathedral. Most already have that but some don't.

Sounds good. I assume you meant 20 vet MA, not regular.

Alan yes they are all veteran units. I have purged our army of the regular units.

Score is 4847 @1500AD

We are very close to the domination limit.

1455 - destroy India except for 1 city. Get a leader and build an MA army with it. Army wins a battle and we can build Heroic epic and military academy. Berlin gets the academy.

I give the Japanese back some of their cities. They are small and weak. I give China the biggest and best cities in the south. Most cities have nothing of value to sell. No wonder these are backwards AI.

1460 - Eliminate India. Start sanitation.

From here on, its a lot of worker actions and micromanaging cities to maximize happiness. I'll spare you the details.

1490 - Sell China sanitation to get their pop up. A couple of cities are due to expand. Settle on dyes to keep them. Give away Edo, Bombay and Bengal to China to make sure we stay under the limit.

1500 - score is 4847. Tsingtao has the UN due in 2 turns but gremlins ate the screen shot.

The fields around Delhi are a massive military base. We have 2 combat settlers there as well. That will let us take Tsingtao in 1 turn. We could probably take China and Japan in 1 turn. We have a large naval taskforce SE of Tsingtao with a transport loaded with troops as well.

We have to carefully optimize our core cities. Some mined grassland should be irrigated for growth. The mountains should be mined. After the hospitals complete some of the core cities can go back to wealth. I retired large numbers of cavalry and replaced them with MI.

We could easily rush some libraries to get some cultural expansion to claim more tiles if we need to get closer to the domination limit. We might want a library in Bonn 3 as it is under culture pressure from Bombay

@Adrian - The turn log sounds great. :goodjob: U.N. in 2 is very, very good news!!

I downloaded the save from the submissions page and tried to load it to look and received the message from Civ3 that the file was an invalid save file. Hope that Alan can get it to come up. If not, you may have to attach the save to the thread so we can get it to load up!! :eek: I'm not sure how the submission page extracted the data if it was an invalid file? :sad:

Good luck Alan, two turns until we know. :coffee: Please post a quickie to let us know if the vote doesn't happen. :thanx:

Thanks, Adrian. Lots of heavy lifting in those turns :goodjob:

I've GOT IT, and it's opened fine here. Looking good.

@Leif: The uploaded file still has its MacBinary header, so you'd have to hex edit it. My Mac knows how to strip that off. My submission code detects it and deals with it as well. I've resaved it and uploaded it using a decent browser ;), so it ought to be OK now.

Our scoring rate seems to sit doggedly at 315-320 per ten turns, not even as high as our previous best of 330, and nowhere near the rate we would need to catch Kuningas Jason score. We're still 24 tiles from domination - plenty of margin. I'll try to cut it finer than that, and I'll focus on population growth where we have hospitals.

I'll try to play at least the first few turns in the next 24 hours and keep you posted.

The cast of characters

AdrianE - just played
AlanH UP
Capt Buttkick - on deck but may have to skip
Leif Erikson - reserve on deck
zamint3 - shouldn't have to play

Looks good Adrian. :goodjob:
Originally Posted by AdrianE
We have 2 combat settlers there as well Nice :thumbsup:


I couldn't load it either, thanks for fixing it Alan, because I have no idea what you are talking about when you say :
...you'd have to hex edit it
:lol: :lol:


My MapStat says 24 tiles to limit, and I don't think we need to go much closer. :mischief: Watch out for Shantung flipping!

If I read the flip-calculator right, Bonn3 will need at least 7 garrisoned units to make sure it won't flip.

Are we sure Japan will vote for us? :confused: :crazyeye: :confused:



Originally Posted by AlanH
zamint3 - shouldn't have to play
Let's hope not! :cry:

@Leif: The uploaded file still has its MacBinary header, so you'd have to hex edit it. My Mac knows how to strip that off. My submission code detects it and deals with it as well. I've resaved it and uploaded it using a decent browser ;), so it ought to be OK now.
Thanks Alan, got a good look!! Nice job Adrian, seems things have changed a little since I left it with you. Hope you had a nice time at the [party]
Our scoring rate seems to sit doggedly at 315-320 per ten turns, not even as high as our previous best of 330, and nowhere near the rate we would need to catch Kuningas Jason score. We're still 24 tiles from domination - plenty of margin. I'll try to cut it finer than that, and I'll focus on population growth where we have hospitals.
It goes to show how important an early finish is! You can clearly see from the graph who is trying for the variant and who is trying for top score. We did a pretty good job of getting close to the domination limit quickly. Then factors beyond our immediate control visited havoc on us. :rolleyes:
I'll try to play at least the first few turns in the next 24 hours and keep you posted.
I played in the diplomacy screen for a while and was a little bit surprised that neither of the emperors are gracious towards us, considering our freeing them from Indian bondage and returning to them what was rightfully ours! :mischief: I tired giving Japan all the resources that they didn't yet have and some bribes and couldn't seem to get them to gracious, beware the vote!! The big advantage here is China's aggression, at our behest, towards Japan. It is going to be interesting to see what happens, and tests, to some degree, Bamspeedy's ideas in his article on AI Attitude.

I'll keep my fingers, toes and whatever else it is possible to do, crossed! :smug: I wish it would help?? May the RNG God be with you Alan. :salute:

China was gracious to us for most of my turns.

Both Japan and China are already at the maximum +10 from gifts and should be that way for some time. Cities are worth a lot. There is no reason to give them anything more than 100G. It must be a government penalty we see with Japan. Note that since we have the power lead all the positives are halved so its difficult to do better than polite.

I don't think there is anything we can do to Japan short of alliance against China to get them to gracious. Hopefully with the war Japan and China fought, Japan is still furious with China.

24 tiles - maybe I should have kept Bombay and Bengal but that would have put us at 6 tiles short. Now there is no reason for Bonn 3 not to get a library. We need to reserve 12 tiles of space for Tsingtao as the border squares between Tsingtao and Delhi will likely become ours as well.

You might want to us one of our prebuilds for Battlefield Medicine in stead of where I started it..

We have 2.5 techs to go for space flight. So if we don't win the election in 2 turns we will be able to claim a triple crown in 13 turns of space/domination/diplomacy. We are probably within reach of conquest and 100K as well. Although 100K would take a bit longer. At the start of my turns we had 46K culture.

We could peel workers off the corrupt towns and get them to join the cities with recent hospitals. Many are due to complete this turn. That will help boost the number of happy faces quickly. Be careful to make sure that they are happy faces though. Some of our recently expanded cities didn't even have marketplaces. I think I fixed those cases.

With 8 luxes and a market place we get 11 happy and 1 unhappy citizens in a size 12 city at 0% entertainment
Add a temple and it is 11 happy and 1 content
Add a cathedral and its 12 happy. It could support 15 happy people. Most of our big productive cities have this set up and are working on hospitals.
Add a colliseum and we could have 16 happy people before we have to spend anything on entertainment.

It will be interesting to see what happens in 2 turns.

Also note I left a significant force on the choke point of the Asian continent. Some of those guys are in Chinese territory.

Thanks for the extra notes Adrian.:thumbsup:

China was gracious to us for most of my turns.

Both Japan and China are already at the maximum +10 from gifts and should be that way for some time. Cities are worth a lot. There is no reason to give them anything more than 100G. It must be a government penalty we see with Japan. Note that since we have the power lead all the positives are halved so its difficult to do better than polite.
Right, China is Polite right now, but we don't really care about their attitude, it's Japan we would need to be gracious. But I doubt we can do more than we have already. I'll give them 100g on the turn before the UN is built just in case.

I don't think there is anything we can do to Japan short of alliance against China to get them to gracious. Hopefully with the war Japan and China fought, Japan is still furious with China.All my fingers are crossed. I think our worst case scenario (apart from a 2:1 vote against us :eek: ) is a Japanese abstention first time round. If we allied against China now then I think there'd be no chance of China calling the vote. If they do call it and Japan abstain then we'll have to ally with them for the next vote.

24 tiles - maybe I should have kept Bombay and Bengal but that would have put us at 6 tiles short.Maybe, but I don't think it would make a lot of difference at this stage. Now there is no reason for Bonn 3 not to get a library. We need to reserve 12 tiles of space for Tsingtao as the border squares between Tsingtao and Delhi will likely become ours as well.We can run it right up to the wire, and then abandon one or two towns back home before we take Tsingtao.

You might want to us one of our prebuilds for Battlefield Medicine in stead of where I started it..Would that buy us anything? We're too far from 100K to grab that as an extra victory condition on turn 13, and there won't be time for battlefield healing after our final battle.

We have 2.5 techs to go for space flight. So if we don't win the election in 2 turns we will be able to claim a triple crown in 13 turns of space/domination/diplomacy. We are probably within reach of conquest and 100K as well. If we don't get the vote in 2 turns I'll try to position for the space victory on turn 13.
Although 100K would take a bit longer. At the start of my turns we had 46K culture.No chance of that victory option on turn 13, I'm afraid.

We could peel workers off the corrupt towns and get them to join the cities with recent hospitals. Many are due to complete this turn. That will help boost the number of happy faces quickly. Be careful to make sure that they are happy faces though.Will do.

Also note I left a significant force on the choke point of the Asian continent. Some of those guys are in Chinese territory.Noted ;)

Here goes nothin' [pimp]

The penny dropped - if I complete Battlefield medicine in Frankfurt I can build Hospitals there and in New Munich :thumbsup:

A quick update:

It's 1515 AD. The good news is China has completed the UN in Tsingtao, the bad news is they didn't call a vote :( Next vote will be at the end of turn 303, 1565 AD.

A quick update:

It's 1515 AD. The good news is China has completed the UN in Tsingtao, the bad news is they didn't call a vote :( Next vote will be at the end of turn 303, 1565 AD.
Thanks for letting us know Alan. :goodjob:

Looks like all that MA is going to come in handy after all. Turn 303 will be fast and furious. I think that after we declare we should sign up Japan as an ally and get it done!! At least we are back in control of our own destiny, no more waiting on the RNG and the AI.

Keep up the good work Alan!! It is almost :beer:time..., oh, that's wine in your case!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

...the bad news is they didn't call a vote. It must be related to score, we are simply too far ahead. :confused:
Originally Posted by leif erikson
I think that after we declare we should sign up Japan as an ally and get it done!! :goodjob:

I think that after we declare we should sign up Japan as an ally and get it done!!
Yes, I guess so, though it would be really neat if we could get the vote without the MA, as that would conform with Gengis Khan's suggested constraint. I wonder if Japan would vote for us without the MA - we'll certainly have to try as an alternative finish after we have done :hmm:

The next vote will be your job, Leif, if I finish tonight, so it's your call. There's no point in declaring on China before the end of my turns as your three turns will be all we need to take and hold the UN.

Talking of alternative finishes, for maximum style marks it would be really cool to try capturing the UN and sue for peace before the vote. Then call the vote in peacetime. I don't feel confident enough about getting Japan's vote in that situation to try it for real, but it will be an intersting experiment. I'll try it out while you play out the main game. Also, if we were going to do that we'd have to start as soon as the current deals with China expire. That's in turn 296, and we might not get back to peace again by turn 303.

@Adrian: Speaking of deals, I notice we have a gpt deal with China that will run for another 15 turns, well beyond when we want to acquire the UN. They are paying us and we've obviously completed our side of the deal - presumably a tech? Is this any problem for our rep when we declare?

Also, I remember seeing a suggestion that we shouldn't trade techs for lux any more. I have to renew the gems deal with Japan now, and they'll do it for Rocketry. Anyone any objection to this? The alternative involves lots of gpt, which we can ill afford if we want to maintain our research to complete a spaceship on the same turn as our diplo win.

Yes, I guess so, though it would be really neat if we could get the vote without the MA, as that would conform with Gengis Khan's suggested constraint. I wonder if Japan would vote for us without the MA - we'll certainly have to try as an alternative finish after we have done :hmm:
Trying it later is a great idea. After all the sweating out of this one, I am not inclined to take any chances over this finish! :rolleyes: There have been too many, however interesting, bumps in the road. :twitch:
The next vote will be your job, Leif, if I finish tonight, so it's your call. There's no point in declaring on China before the end of my turns as your three turns will be all we need to take and hold the UN.
Alan, if you would like the honor of completing, please feel free. If not, has our favorite, trademarked Capt already declared a skip? ;)
@Adrian: Speaking of deals, I notice we have a gpt deal with China that will run for another 15 turns, well beyond when we want to acquire the UN. They are paying us and we've obviously completed our side of the deal - presumably a tech? Is this any problem for our rep when we declare?
Any deal we break, even one that benefits us, will be a rep hit, as I understand it. However, I don't think we can wait until it expires to finish. Japan, as our ally, will hardly notice; although it will probably cost us more to get Japan on board. I think you should save rocketry as the bribe to get Japan to ally. Then there is only a trun or so left, further discussion below.
Also, I remember seeing a suggestion that we shouldn't trade techs for lux any more. I have to renew the gems deal with Japan now, and they'll do it for Rocketry. Anyone any objection to this? The alternative involves lots of gpt, which we can ill afford if we want to maintain our research to complete a spaceship on the same turn as our diplo win.
The problem with giving Rocketry to Japan is that they then have access to aluminium, and Nuclear Weapons. As long as they get it late enough not to give it to China, or once they are allied with us, it should be OK. I don't think we want to face a U.N. vote with a mushroom cloud hanging over Berlin?? :nuke: :cry: Is it less expensive to push the lux slider up a notch or two or pay Japan for gems? That is the question, imho. :hmm:

To answer your question, Leif: Yes, I asked for a skip, still busy... :sad:
Alan was offered the chance to finish, but I don't think he felt up to it :p
Anyway, he left it to you so I think you should go ahead and play it, Leif, good luck :thumbsup:

There's no point in declaring on China before the end of my turns as your three turns will be all we need to take and hold the UN.
What if Japan declares war against us or signs a MPP with China? :eek:



@Adrian: Speaking of deals, I notice we have a gpt deal with China that will run for another 15 turns, well beyond when we want to acquire the UN. They are paying us and we've obviously completed our side of the deal - presumably a tech? Is this any problem for our rep when we declare?
It will hurt our rep but not much (+1 with Japan I think )



Also, I remember seeing a suggestion that we shouldn't trade techs for lux any more. I have to renew the gems deal with Japan now, and they'll do it for Rocketry. Anyone any objection to this? We did talk about that, but this late it should not matter. Leif, Japan will need Space Flight as well before they can build Nuclear Weapons. :)

We completed our part of the deal. They are paying us for sanitation. Breaking a deal like that will not hurt our reputation at all. We lived up to our end. Although Bamspeedy's article implies there might be a +1 although it doesn't explictly state it. I didn't think them paying us would be an issue.

Note that we should sign a MPP with Japan. That will cause a 5 (10 halved for power lead) point swing in our favor which should put them at gracious. Then we can declare war on China (and do nothing) and let them attack us. Put some isolated worker out for them to attack/capture to trigger the MPP. An MPP is safe here because the only nation we are considering going to war with is China.

Buy Gems from Japan. Sanitation is a good one to sell even if it means giving up some resources. Rocketry is ok.
You could bring the cost down by signing the MPP along with it.

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

Good thinking, Adrian. I'll set up the MPP straight away as that should reduce the chances of Japan declaring on us.

Sanitation is 'insulting' as a swap for gems with Japan, and the price in gpt is probably high enough to jeopardise our research rate for the spaceship, even with all our lux thrown into the deal. I don't think Rocketry is a big risk, so I'll go with it unless the MPP allows the sanitation option.

I didn't think the gpt deal with China was likely to be a problem, but I thought I'd better check.

Incidentally, our border around Bonn 3 has expanded to the nine tile area now. It was hard up against the city gates when I picked up the save. I'm not sure what caused the change - we are still at pop 1, and although I rushed a library we are still one or two turns from expansion :confused:

I'll play tonight. If I'm feeling enthusiastic at the end of turn 10 I'll finish it off, but turns are slow, and I suspect I'll be passing it on before I fall asleep at the wheel.

Leif, Japan will need Space Flight as well before they can build Nuclear Weapons. :)
You're correct :blush: I knew I should have looked it up in the Civlopedia. I used the CivFanatics units listing and it confused me, oops!!

MPP is a very good idea Adrian. :goodjob:

If I'm feeling enthusiastic at the end of turn 10 I'll finish it off, but turns are slow, and I suspect I'll be passing it on before I fall asleep at the wheel.
In that case, I'll be looking... ;)

I completed the ten turns last night but it was too late to do the write up. Here is a summary turnlog.

I've missed out the gory details of worker actions and city improvement completions. Any core city that has high shield output is building, or has built, Hospital, Colosseum, Mass Transit, not always in that order. Once completed they switched to Wealth. Workers have been clearing pollution as first priority, then mining a few mountains for extra citizens to work, and irrigating grassland and plains with mines to support larger populations. Some workers have joined cities to increase population.

Preflight
Switched New Munich from Battlefield Medecine to Hospital.
Switched Frankfurt's UN prebuild to Battlefield Medicine wasting 62 shields.
Switched a couple of cities from Wealth to Hospital.
Tuned some cities for food where they were about to build hospitals and were at zero growth.
Rushed libraries in Punjab, Kolhapur, Bonn 3 for some extra territory.
Increased garrison in Bonn 3 to 8 MI to stave off a flip.
Slider 4.6.0 for 153 gpt. Treasury 503 gold.

IBT
Nuclear power completed. Start Superconductors.

Turn 291 1505 AD
Slider 3.7.0 for Superconductors in 4 turns at -65 gpt.
Note that our Gems deal with Japan will expire in 2 turns.

Turn 292 1510 AD
Noticed we have a Palace beig built in New Berlin for completion in 3 turns. Slow it to 4 turns as a pre-build for the Spaceship.
Slider 3.7.0 Supercnductors in 3 turns at -33 gpt

IBT
The UN was built by China in Tsingtao. They don't call the vote :(

Turn 293 1515 AD
Bonn 3 has managed to grow to its 9 tile radius, encroaching on the Chinese neighbour. Not sure how as its rushed library hasn't triggered its border expansion yet. :confused:
Renew Gens deal with Japan for Rocketry and MPP. They won't do it for Sanitation without a lot of gpt. Japan and China are now both gracious.
Slider 4.6.0, Superconductors in 2 turns at 306 gpt.

IBT
A scary amount of expansion, with one or two extra bits I hadn't expected. Held my breath for a domination announcement, but it didn't come :whew:

Turn 294 1520 AD
Saved file and went straight to JMapstat. We are 4 tiles from Domination. Man, that was close :eek: I checked right through the city list to see if any other cities are due for expansions before we finish. There are none, but we could still get a flip to us as we have a couple of Chinese cities under pressure. So I decided to abandon a couple of home cities - Bremen 3 and Stuttgart 3. These release some coastal tiles giving us an 11 tile margin to allow for any unforseen flips. The net effect is we are closer to the domination limit, and our cities on the other continent have some more elbow room.
We have three turns left on our RoP deal with China.
Slider 5.5.0 for Superconductors next turn 542 gpt.

IBT
Superconductors completed, start Laser

Turn 295 1525 AD
Switch New Bremen from Palace to SS Life Support, wasting 676 shields
Berlin starts SS Fuel Cells (3 turns)

Turn 296 1530 AD
RoP was about to expire with China so I removed a couple of units from Chinese territory. We are now 2 parts away from the spaceship.

Turn 296 - 298, 1530 - 1540 AD zzz
SS Fuel Cells completed.

Turn 299 1545 AD
Laser completed Start crochet at 10%. Entertainmnent to 10% to make everybody happy.

New Konigsberg starts building SS Planetary Lounge. This could complete on the same turn as the next vote - turn 303, but on the last turn it needs to be tuned not to finish.

Turn 300 1550 AD Nothing exciting.

Post turn notes
It'll be all over in three turns.
Watch the spaceship build in New Konigsberg. That must not complete in 1565 AD, but style dictates that it should be possible to complete it on that turn by managing city production.
Time to make our final moves. We still have an expired RoP with China that we can use to move troops if you want. I guess we want one more turn of positioning, then cancel the RoP deal, then declare and take Tsingtao, kill as many Chinese units as we can see, then position our troops to hold Tsingtao. There are two combat settlers in Delhi, and another one in build that you can rush just in case. You'll have to check Mapstat after capturing Tsingtao, and abandon one or two home coastal cities to get back under the limit.

We hope we have Diplo done and dusted, and we obviously have Domination and Space in the bag - we have to avoid them :eek:, so we have a triple victory in our sights. I'm not certain about Conquest. It might take 2 turns to delete the remaining cities, and we wouldn't want to do much of that on turn 302 as it would mean razing cities. I might try it out though :D

Pollution is becoming a problem again, and the remaining workers should be focused on that to the exclusion of other work, though it's not a big deal if it doesn't all get cleared now. There's not enough score potential left in the remaining three turns.

Score 5153, the rate is still not increasing significantly. If anything it's falling off :hmm:.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Xteam_SG002_AD1550_01.SAV)

New Konigsberg starts building SS Planetary Lounge. This could complete on the same turn as the next vote - turn 303, but on the last turn it needs to be tuned not to finish.
Looks like it was a rather long night. There is so much to check. The log doesn't begin to show the fine tuning needed and it sounds like you did your usual excellent work. :goodjob:

A question about spaceship? I thought we could time the launch of the spaceship to any date we wanted after it is completed. Don't we have to manually launch it by pressing the launch button in the spaceship info screen? If that is so, why do we need to delay the SS Planetary Lounge build? We can complete it and simply not launch, or am I missing something? :confused:

On starting the war with China? We are receiving GPT from China and have to break that to seize the U.N., no problem really. Adrian had mentioned that it might be best to declare on China and place a worker where China could easily capture him to bring Japan into the war on our side. To do it this way will require an extra turn at war than simply declaring and seizing the U.N. Should I allow China the opportunity to take a Japanese city, thus a further guarantee of Japan's loyalty to us or protect Japan as well as taking and holding the U.N.? Sorry, but there are several ways to do this and I thought I would ask.

BTW - This is a got it. I intend to finish it this evening, so any more thoughts would be appreciated.

There's no escape from that screen that I've ever found except to launch. Unless I'm missing something, at each turn make sure that you *could* build the Lounge in 1565 AD, but make sure you don't!

My suggested sequence, feel free to ignore it:

1555 AD: Take a turn to finally position your seaborne troops outside China ready to go in.

1560 AD: Cancel the RoP deal and declare on China in 1560 AD.
- Use fighters to recon the areas you can see.
- Use bombers to soften up anything they can reach.
- Use the combat settlers to reach Tsingtao, artillery to soften it up and MA to take it.
- Do whatever else you need to do to weaken China's counter-attack - kill and bombard anything you can find in range. Most of their counter-attack will probably come from their main centers to the west of Delhi/Tsingtao.
- Set up two or three lines of defence all aound the cities you have in the Chinese range. Use MI + MA at the front, then workers behind, and artillery in the cities with MI. You just need to maximise the number of units they have to kill and tiles they have to retake before they can reach the UN.
- Put a few units in forward positions threatening their nearest big cities. They may throw their offesive troops at those threats rather than try to counter punch at Tsingtao.
- Check Mapstat and abandon home coastal cities until we are safely below the limit. With your last combat settler city plus Tsingtao you *will* be above the limit.

Hit next turn and watch them counter-attack. The first attack they make will trigger the MPP with Japan. You won't need to make it easy for them with a worker, though there's no harm in doing so. If you have set up your defences well you'll be in good shape at the start of the next turn.

1565 AD: Do what you feel appropriate.
- Kill any counter-attackers you can reach, use your bombers again to soften their cities.
- Reinforce any defences they've managed to weaken. Move in more decoy threats to their cities if that worked before. Give Japan a few shekels/techs to help grease the wheels of diplomacy.

Hit next turn. They'll build a few more units and you'll see another counter-attack, but again, you should be well able to absorb it. You should be asked if you want to call the vote. Say yes, and reap the rewards for all our hard work :thumbsup:

Come back and tell us how it goes.

Looks good Alan. :goodjob:
So we are finally there. :D



We hope we have Diplo done and dusted, and we obviously have Domination and Space in the bag - we have to avoid them :eek:, so we have a triple victory in our sights.

If I understand this correctly, we win by diplomacy, and the save will show that we could have won by domination because we have enough settlers and free space to go over the limit, and the save will show we could have won by space ship because we have a city where the last part of the ship could have been build several turns ago.
Is this the way you get credit for multible wins. :confused:


@Alan : If you are not absolutely sure about Japan's loyalty you could sign a military alliance as well. :cool:

That's the idea. Note that the end of game save only shows one victory condition - hopefully Diplomatic, if Leif remembers to slow down the spaceship and abandon a city or two. We should also save the game at the 1565 AD start of turn so that we can replay that last turn to demonstrate that each victory option is possible at that date.

I don't think the MA is necessary. Japan is Gracious, he'll be at war with China because of the MPP. Give Tokugawa 100 gold in 1565 AD and he'll walk over hot coals for us :)

There's no escape from that screen that I've ever found except to launch. Unless I'm missing something, at each turn make sure that you *could* build the Lounge in 1565 AD, but make sure you don't!
I am going to play it this way becasue we will be sure it will work out like this. However, for experiment sake, I'll make a save after each turn that we can use to try different things to see what would have happened had we played it a different way. Thanks for your suggested course of action.
Hit next turn. They'll build a few more units and you'll see another counter-attack, but again, you should be well able to absorb it. You should be asked if you want to call the vote. Say yes, and reap the rewards for all our hard work :thumbsup:
Won't that be nice! ;)
Come back and tell us how it goes.
Of course!! :D

Diplomatic Victory in 1570 AD!! :band:

Pre-flight
Checked MapStat to confirm we have 11 tiles remaining to domination, correct.
Use jet fighters for recon missions around Tsingtao, Shanghai and Canton to get a feel for the situation in order to deploy offensive units for attack on Tsingtao and the destruction of the Chinese army.
Check diplomatic status and find that Japan does not even have a Right of Passage with China, good! Both are in awe of our cultural achievements.
Move a few naval units around to the west side of China for recon purposes and find a Chinese Battleship lurking near Hyderabad.
Press enter.

IBT
Disease strike New Berlin? Can you imagine that!
Many Mass Transits were built and most of these cities changed to Wealth.
There were no cultural expansions.

Turn 301 – 1555 AD
With the Jet Fighters on the Carriers, we can illuminate most of China. There are some Modern Armor, but mostly Tanks and Cavalry with some Infantry. Tsingtao is guarded by a Regular Rifleman. :p Hope that remains the same.
Save the game and exit to check MapStat. We still are 11 tiles from the limit.
Move some naval units to better recon and bring bombers closer for greater interior range.

IBT
Interesting, Mao shows up and demands computers. I tell him NUTS! The response is funny. He says, “But of course! We were just kidding! Haha! Funny joke, eh?” Mao is now polite towards us, but not for long.
Some pollution and some more Mass transits.

Turn 302 – 1560 AD
Here we go!
I go to visit Mao and cancel the ROP, taking back all the lux and resources that went with the deal. A state of war now exists between us and the Chinese!
Recon the Chinese empire. Wake a combat settler and build a city, Bremen3 , 2 squares west of Delhi.
Begin Bombardment of Tsingtao with Bombers from Delhi. See a Chinese Modern Armor 3 squares east of Tsingtao and redline it with 3 bombers.

In Tsingtao, first bomber destroys the cathedral, barracks is destroyed, 2 failed bombings, then we take one HP off the defending Rifleman. Move an elite Panzer forward and attack Tsingtao, destroys reg rifleman, losing 1 HP; a regular spear remains. Move forward another elite Panzer, kills spear losing 1 HP. Another Panzer moves up and we defeat the last reg spear and capture the U.N. :clap:
There are 4 resisiting out of 14 citizens and many unhappy faces, so we make them all tax collectors and set production to marketplace, as if it matters. Set up security around the U.N. and attack anything within sight.
We redline the units we can see with bombers and destroy the Barracks in Shanghai. Destroy 2 MA, several tanks and some cavalry. We lose 2 bombers to fighters.
Deploy the Army to block Chinese movements and make them fight a minimum of 3 battles to get to Tsingtao, and then make them fight for the city.

Before I forget, MM New Konigsburg to make sure SS Party Lounge is available in 3 turns instead of 1. To do this requires changing all citizens producing shields to Tax Collectors. This makes the SS Party Lounge completed at end of turn, 1570 AD.

Save game and exit to check MapStat. We are 4 tiles over the domination limit. Re-enter the game and find some tiles to delete. Abandon Hamburg 3. Save and check MapStat again. We are now 3 tiles under the domination limit, too close for me. I decide to use Dianthus’ MapStat to check and find that Dijon and Leipzig 2 will expand in 1 turn. Back to the game to see what that will do to us. While it should have no effect as all the coast squares are already ours, I decide to abandon Brandenburg 2, just for a little breathing space. Save and check MapStat. We now have 14 tiles, that should be plenty.
My system crashed :cry: and had to reboot, got to love Windoze, huh Alan? :rolleyes:

IBT
Vet Chinese tank attacks our Elite panzer and wins, losing 2 HP.
Japan declares war on the Chinese, YES!
2 Chinese Riders attack Nuremberg 3 and are defeated, MA promotes to elite.
We lose 1 MA to a Chinese MA who then attacked another of our MA and lost.
4 Chinese cavalry attack Bonn3 and all are defeated while 2 of our MI promote to elite.
2 Chinese Tanks attack MA at Lahore and die, MA promotes to elite.
The resistance in Tsingtao has ended and I make them all Tax Collectors as the city revolts.

Turn 303 – 1565 AD – The Last Turn??
Save the game.
Recon with Fighter units and very few Chinese units can be seen so we target cities instead.
Here we go.

IBT
11 Bombers attack Frankfurt 3 and Heidelburg 3, destroying rails, roads and other improvements. I guess China still has a little fight left in her.
2 Chinese Tanks attack our wounded MA and the first dies and the second wins, destroying our Modern Armor.
A Cavalry attacks Bonn3 and we get a leader when he is defeated by an elite MI. A little late??
There are a lot of messages saying the "We love the chancellor days" end, must be some war weariness?
The elections are held and Japan votes for us, finally!! We win. :D
Final Firaxis score is 7194.

<< Final Save >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm2/Xteam_SG002_AD1570_01.SAV)

edit - I saved the game at the beginning of the 1565 AD turn in case anyone wanted it. << Beginning of 1565 AD Turn Save >> (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Xteam_SG002_AD1565_0S.SAV)

gw xteam, was a great read.

The Nemesis.

Thanks Nemesis, it was a lot of fun to play with these guys. :cool:

I truly enjoyed following your endeavours. I am happy our team (Kuningas) wrapped things up early so I could enter "the drama" at a fairly early stage. Great game guys!

[dance] [party] [dance] [party] [dance]

Well done guys. :D

Time to go lurking on the other teams, at last. :cool:

[party] [dance] :band: [dance] [party]

Woohoo! When I feel heavy metal :rockon:

Well done, team. Although it was just a little too late, but the nice thing about succession games is that we can share the blame for that :lol:

Diplomatic Victory in 1570 AD!! :band:
Terrific! Well played Leif, and the whole Xteam :goodjob:

Now let's see that the others are up to :mischief:

Although it was just a little too late, but the nice thing about succession games is that we can share the blame for that :lol:
I don't know if I would say it that way. The Jason is set up for us to build the U.N. at best date, not for the AI to build it for us. It is going to be interesting to see how the other teams fare that are going for the sponsored variant. Time to go read up on the problems they are facing!! :crazyeye:

I think we did very well at what we set out to do. We expanded rapidly, the scoring graph tells that tale, and kept our momentum as we approached the domination limit. After that, it was trying to figure out how to get the AI to pre-build wonders while preserving our rep. I was surprised at the number of curves the AI was able to impede us with, but that is part of the game.

Thanks to all my X-Team mates for keeping it interesting and for all the interesting discussion. :goodjob:

edit - BTW Alan, you were right. :goodjob: I replayed the end last night after finishing the diplo victory by having the SS Party Lounge complete in 1565 and it required me to launch the space ship before it would allow us to vote. I'm going to have to find an old PTW save and see if the launch is required in that version. I'm quite sure I was able to delay it in another game I played, but I could be mistaken. :eek: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Well done everyone. The win was just in time for me to go on vacation.

I am especially proud that we won a difficult variant without resorting to demeaning exploitative tactics. Things like disconnecting resources to build cheap units to upgrade and starting wars on other continents that we can't participate in are really bad mannered and exploitative in my opinion. However those are hallmarks of high scoring GOTM play, which is really sad.

Another thing to remember is that we are slowed by up to 12 turns because we are using 1.29. The PTW folks can get an additional tech from the scientific civs as each enters a new age. In civ1.29 the free tech is predetermined and we were going to get it anyway. This won't be reflected in the scores though.

How many turns did we lose because of the Chinese leader? Would it have made a big enough difference to jason score?

Would the space win give us a better Jason score?

Any thoughts on things to improve on?
We might have got a bit higher score by researching sanitation immediately after fission so that we could build hospitals ASAP and increase our population.

The war in asia hurt us in several ways. The AI's built units not improvements and consequently did not have good enough economies to help us with research. Very few if any Indian cities had marketplaces, which are essential. Keeping the Indians and Chinese out of the German-Japan war might have been the better move. However the AIs do love long and pointless industrial age wars. One might have happened anyway.

I guess we lost a few turns to the Chinese leader, but not enough to give us a score to beat Kuningas. I don't think earier sanitation would have helped either. Our scoring rate was actually deteriorating as we played the last thirty turns, so we were over some kind of threshold at that point. We'd have needed a major surge in population to make a positive score difference, and I don't know where that could have come from. I was joining workers faster than was healthy for pollution control, knowing we were near the end. I imagine Leif may have had trouble clearing it. To handle a really big polulation you also need Ecology and recycling ...

So the bottom line is we really needed a faster tech pace so that all the productivity advances could happen earlier. With 20:20 hindsight, an alternative strategy might have been to keep all the civs alive as research partners and build up territory to the domination limit using the other continent instead. If we could have kept things peaceful we may have been able to increase the tech rate to reach the UN earlier. But that would be a completely different game from the one we played. I'll have to go see if anyone else is doing it that way.

Firstly, let me congratulate you with the good win. :clap:

Secondly, check out Peanut's team, they have followed a different route to victory and have finished today.

Impressive job on the clean win and entertaining discussion! Just watch the lurkers come out of the woodworks.
.
I am especially proud that we won a difficult variant without resorting to demeaning exploitative tactics. Things like disconnecting resources to build cheap units to upgrade and starting wars on other continents that we can't participate in are really bad mannered and exploitative in my opinion. However those are hallmarks of high scoring GOTM play, which is really sad.

What is considered exploitive is a floating definition of meta-rules. In my viewpoint, planned RCP is exploitative-- but each to their own, as more players can play and enjoy the gotm and play to their likes.

Team akots handicaped themselves to play under the aw variant (we had hoped to trap a settler and win with a dictatorial vote, but alas no luck in this area), but it was great to see how well we placed with the non-sponsered variant play.

Playing a competive game closer its spirit, ignoring gray areas of mechanics, is what the RBCiv variant was about in sgotm1. I am always game for that! What would the AdrianE variant be like?

Firstly, let me congratulate you with the good win. :clap:

Secondly, check out Peanut's team, they have followed a different route to victory and have finished today.
Thanks Space.

Indeed, I've just been reading Peanut's log. Beat us by 31 turns :( Well done to any lurking Peanuts :thumbsup:

Some key differences I spotted: They gained considerably from keeping more civs alive, and probably as another result of this they won the vote when it was called by the builder, saving another 11 turns. They also got an advantage from PtW giving out lots of free techs at the start of each era, which is considerably more than 12 turns when you add up three era changes.

..the vote...... was called by the builder
I wish somebody would tell us exactly what triggered this. :confused:

:goodjob: Team Peanut

They won it by 4 votes to 3. My guess is that having more civs in the mix means it's less certain how the vote will go, and the AI is more likely to risk it.

Bruindane

RCP is not really exploitive. The AI's tend to build at RCP=5 (aka OCP) if they can. I like RBCIv rules as well.

Peanut's team did a good job. From skimming their logs they only took out Russia but they did it honourably. They kept the world peaceful which meant the AI's could build improvements and keep up the research pace. With the AI's left with big productive cores they had quite the economy.

The win was just in time for me to go on vacation.

This goes for me too. :)

Nice playing with you guys, I learned a lot. :goodjob:

Looking foreward to the next one. :cool:

Seems like my allying India and China against Japan may have been the course of our downfall after all :sad: I've learnt one thing: I'll chicken in the next time anything like this happens...
If it hadn't been for that Chinese GL :mad:

If we had avoided the war in the first place by having a stronger army we *might* have been able to make up the 31 turn difference, but I suspect the die was cast when we decided to eliminate the locals.

In PtW Peanut had a three tech lead on us by keeping Russia alive to give them another free tech at era changes, plus there was a chance the Germans would not get useless free techs like Nationalism. So make that a 12 turns advantage that wasn't available to us.

Add another 11 turns for the fact that the Chinese called the vote in their game, and we are down to an 8 turn difference. That vote was only called because there was a chance it could have gone the other way, so Peanut also had a significant risk element in their game. They could have lost the vote, whereas we went for minimal risk.

We were also trying for the double laurels, so elimination of the local civs fitted with that, allowing us to get close to domination early.

But hey, we played a fun game, I have further evidence that I should curb my warmongering instincts, and we taught each other lots of cool stuff. And we reached a triple victory.

BTW, I should have said I posted a Spoiler 2 summary yesterday. Check it out and let me know if I've missed anything vital.

Sgotm 3 anyone?
:D

Seems like my allying India and China against Japan may have been the course of our downfall after all :sad: I've learnt one thing: I'll chicken in the next time anything like this happens...
If it hadn't been for that Chinese GL :mad:
I would have done the same thing, so I don't think you should use your namesake on yourself for one decision. :bump: I'm also not sure that you can apply that lesson to future games as this was an interesting case that I don't think anyone had tried before. Only in the mind of M-B would such a plot be hatched!! :lol:
In PtW Peanut had a three tech lead on us by keeping Russia alive to give them another free tech at era changes, plus there was a chance the Germans would not get useless free techs like Nationalism. So make that a 12 turns advantage that wasn't available to us.

Add another 11 turns for the fact that the Chinese called the vote in their game, and we are down to an 8 turn difference. That vote was only called because there was a chance it could have gone the other way, so Peanut also had a significant risk element in their game. They could have lost the vote, whereas we went for minimal risk.
While I have read Cracker's comments concerning the differences between vanilla and ptw, I never really appreciated it until this game. You MAC guys, who have no choice in th ematter, really have my respect. In many ways you have to play a little better just to break even.

I started doing a spreadsheet turnlog comparison between our game and Team Peanut as a post-mortum, as it were. Alan, I see you have already done a very good summary of events, so I might play COTM02 instead, after I finish GOTM32. :lol:

I think we played a very good game. From the little time I've read Team Peanut's thread, I think they maximized their research efforts to get to Fission as quickly as possible and went for broke, a very good game with good decisions by them. It appears they received Fission on turn 251 as their free tech at age change, that is only 6 turns ahead of us and we had to research it. For me, that is the way it goes and Alan is right that they could have lost the vote. They were at war with several other civs at the time and got the vote.

That shouldn't minimize the game we played as I think we did pretty good at maximizing our research keeping things moving. There are several things that didn't go our way, this time! :aargh: But I appreciated the discussion and the hard work that everyone put in, :thanx:
Sgotm 3 anyone?
If you guys can put with me, I'm game!! :beer:

edit - Almost forgot, I read your summary of our game Alan and it was excellent. :goodjob:

Sgotm 3 anyone?
:D
I've already signed up. I wasn't sure whether you guys would put up with me for a third game on a row, but I'm game if you are. I'd like to play the variant for the hell of it ... literally :eek:. I'm just a masochist, really.

I've already signed up. I wasn't sure whether you guys would put up with me for a third game on a row, but I'm game if you are. I'd like to play the variant for the hell of it ... literally :eek:. I'm just a masochist, really.
Put up with you? You have been great at listening to all my goofy ideas, and pointing out when I screw up, without chastising. I have learned a great deal from our discussions and very much enjoyed the companionship, with all of the X-Team.

While it was a tough loss, as a team we won because we are able to present ideas and discuss them without shooting each other. And enjoy learning as we went.

Of course we'll play the variant! How does it go, "The situation is grim, we have little hope and the enemy is all around us. When do we start?" :D

Well I'm back home and I thought I'd take a look at a couple of situations that occurred at the end of our game.

First, Gandhi declaring war on us. In our SOD, only a few Workers have actually done anything this turn. We move everybody else forward leaving them exposed and India declares war. It appears he did this to gain a few cheap workers so I played around with defending them.

Case1: Leave entire SOD with Workers, no declaration (so it is tied to defense)
Case2: Leave 1 MechInf with Workers, still declares War
Case3: Leave 5 MechInf with Workers, still declares War
Case4: Leave 5 MechInf, 5 Panzers with Workers, still declares War
Case5: Leave 5 of Everything with Workers, no declaration
Case6: Leave 1 MechInf, 1 Artillery with Workers, NO DECLARATION.

So, in this case at least, the presence of 1 Defensive unit and 1 Artillery prevented Gandhi from attacking. The Artillery, for whatever reason, seems to be the key ingredient.

I also wanted to investigate the whole China building UN and calling a vote, or not, with India at war or not, and what sorts of diplomacy affected things.

First, assuming India is at war with us before we declare against China. I never quite followed Peanut's time line, and I never quite got a vote. In one case I got France and Japan allied vs China, and ROP's with everybody - no vote. Then I dropped the Alliances and sign ROP's with everybody - no vote. Then I signed a ROP with only France (since they switched on us, just to see if I can keep them on our side) - still no vote. So it appears that any improvement of the diplomatic status ended in a no vote. So I played it straight up, no diplomacy, and got a shocker: India gets Russia to ally against us, and we lose the vote, 3-4!!! The overall outcome is extremely sensitive to RNG effects; making or not making a particular trade or diplomacy deal can sway the results dramatically.

I also looked at what happens if we keep India from declaring War before we declare on China. I did the Artillery thing. In 1405 I moved everybody up to the Chinese border. In 1410 I declare on China, taking Hangchow, moving bulk of SOD to within 2 spaces of Beijing. All my units were either in or adjacent to Hangchow, or in Chinese territory; none were in Indian territory. India still declares War on us. I suspect China has a trade position to make to buy India into the war. China builds the UN, but doesn't call the vote.

I think it was really fortunate to win when we did; in a more controlled situation, I don't think China would have called the vote and we would have won according to bigchief's test results.

In case you haven't seen this, this is how close it was for Team Peanut. ;) There is also some good info on Dilpo and AI attitude.

edit - The end result would have been the same, but they estimate that they would have won in 1470 instead, just to complete the picture. :)