Our opponents will be culture duds as I mentioned in the start up thread. Our opponents are the Zulu, the Vikings, Rome, Mongols and the Aztecs. I am not as sure on the Aztecs, but you know they will waste too much time in early war.


3950 BC
Babylon is formed. We have no food bonuses to start with.


3400 BC
(IT) Our next research project is Masonry.

Summary:
We still don't have much in the way of food bonuses. It looks like multiple cities will have to supply the settlers.

Although this is an 80K game - we still need at least one city pumping out military. Don't focus solely on culture.

We need lots of tightly packed cities. Don't plan for cities using more then 12 tiles.

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
SesnOfWthr (on deck)
Ankka
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-3000BC.zip

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map.

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the attack civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks. This pretty much rules out alliances and MPPs.

6) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

7) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

The following tactics are PROHIBITED:

RoP Rape - if you have to ask...

RoP Abuse that includes things such as irrigating all tiles with a city building wonders, denying resources with a RoP, putting a unit to block a land bridge, etc.

Scout resource denial - parking a scout on a resource, as the AI won't ask scouts to leave. The same scenario also applies to workers.

False Peace Treaties (must wait for the 20 years to end).

The negative science exploit - you can run a huge deficit (-250 / turn) of negative cash with a token penalty of one lost worker / cheap building. If cash will go below zero, the research level must be dropped.

Ship chaining exploit - you can move a ship, unload troops to another ship, move that ship, etc. This allows you to ship an indefinite distance, and that is why I consider it an exploit.

Resources disconnect / connect exploit - I consider most resource tactics fine. Delaying to hook a resource, trading it away etc is fine. The exploit is to do this every turn. Build a stack of horses, connect saltpeter, upgrade to cavalry, and disconnect.

Palace Jump - You abandon the capital city to move the palace to a new location. If you want to move the palace, build a new palace.


Standard LK house rules:
1) Worker automation of any kind is prohibited.
2) No worker purchases during the first 50 turns to avoid civ crippling.
3) Declaring war / demanding leave solely for the purpose of getting out of trade deals. This includes nonsense spying simply to force a war. Stealing techs is fine.
4) Even if not covered under exploits listed, please try not to use tactics that take advantage of holes in the game design.
5) Our trading reputation is golden - please respect it.
6) Complete your turn. It is frustrating to get a 1/2 completed turn.

Just Checking in.
And thanks for making all rules clear.

Checking in.

Sounds like the start won't be an easiest one if we have no food bonuses...

No pictures of the start for the lurkers? :)

Got it.

I think after Masonry we should beeline to Literature? Libraries and GL would be nice to have. How about ToA?

No pictures of the start for the lurkers?
It is a pretty BORING start. Hopefully the next couple players can find some good tiles. ;)



Got it.

I think after Masonry we should beeline to Literature? Libraries and GL would be nice to have. How about ToA?

ToA will depend on us finding a decent site for wonders. For the most part I hate that wonder, but in this case bonus culture would be nice. The trick is we still want the regular temples ASAP. We want the doubling affect.

We really want libraries. The more culture the better. But let us start with more cities, building some troops, and find some bonus food tiles.

Checking in. Looking forward to this one. :)

I agree with Literature.

I didn't get to build the ToA in my lone Conquests game. Do the free temples it gives get the 1000 years bonus too?
In any case, it does seem the 100k-victory wonder...

However (and you can check SirPleb's spoilers for GOTM31) the 1000-year culture doubling does not seem to have very large an impact on a 'fast' victory -of course, this does not mean we shouln't try to make the best use of it.

As the boss says, our #1 target should rather be that of expanding like crazy, and problem #1 is of course that we cannot fight...

That's an interesting challenge. Well thought, LK! :hatsoff:

Karasu - I can't speak for the 1000 yr bonus, but we may never know as the temples disappear when the wonder expires, with Education. It's a great thing to have to consolidate borders and get an early culture boost, but we're still going to need to build the temples in every city. As LK said, the sooner the better.

They *disappear*? :eek: Well, it was too good to be true...

Yeah that was pretty much my reaction in the one game I built it. I wondered why my people got so mad all of a sudden....

preturn: nothing, so press enter.

IBT Settler->Temple.

(1)2950BC: Warrior in the north reveals a possible settler factory site, but it's too far away. Move the settler to
(2)2900BC: Warrior reveals one more food bonus in the north!
(3)2850BC: huts give us 3 angry barbs.
IBT one barb attacks our warrior and loses.
(4)2800BC: Nineveh founded -> warrior. Our warrior kills a barb and redlines.
(5)2750BC: ZZZ
(6)2710BC: ZZZ
(7)2670BC: ZZZ
(8)2630BC: kill a barb.
IBT Masonry->Alphabet in min. I'm hoping to get it from the AI (Romans and Vikings have it). Warrior->warrior.
(9)2590BC: Got another 3 barbs from hut.
(10)2550BC: kill a barb.
I'm sending a warrior to the west to scouting. We need more contacts.

Nineveh should start settler after the warrior and set up the factory asap. Irrigate two 2 floodplains (one with bonus) will give us +5 food. Mine those bonus grasslands. We seem to need a temple first so that will not be very fast to set up. Babylon too on settler (temple due next turn).

We seem to have a nice choke to defend ourselves. Explore more and see if we can settle there at some point.

Light blue circles are barbs.

The dotmap for discussion.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-2550BC.jpg

huts give us 3 angry barbs.
No surprise - I hate poping them at high levels unless expansionist.


The good news with the map so far - 3 luxuries nearby, if we can get them all.

=====================

LKendter
Microbe
SesnOfWthr (currently playing)
Ankka (on deck)
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map.

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the attack civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks. This pretty much rules out alliances and MPPs.

6) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

7) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

I think the dotmap could be tighter. Some of the cities are quite far apart, and we want as many cities as possible to get the max out of libraries & temples.

Nicely played, microbe :thumbsup: I generally never get to build a second city this early in the game!!

I concur on settling as tight as possible: we really need to put as many cities as possible on the board. I'd say two to three tiles spacing immediately outside our core region.

About the settler factory: what about starting a Granary in Nineveh asap -with a prebuild of course while we research Pottery? With only two turns at min on Alphabet we could change research target without loosing too much. And delaying the temple in Nineveh 10 or 20 turns is certainly not going to kill us.
Babylon could build one or two warriors and another settler in the meantime (or Barracks?).

It's just an idea to be discussed of course: my usual approach is to set everything up first (in this case, Granary before any other settlers), which sometimes may not be the most time-effective I guess...

I think the dotmap could be tighter. Some of the cities are quite far apart, and we want as many cities as possible to get the max out of libraries & temples.

Actually, the dot map may be to TIGHT. We want to get around 12 tiles out of our core cities. We should plan to never need hospitals. Once we get far enough away that the cities are mostly corrupt, then pack them tightly.


About the settler factory: what about starting a Granary in Nineveh asap
It has no bonus food tiles - no settler factory possible! The flood plains wheat is the only possible source of a lot of settlers / workers quickly.

We also need a spot to start building military. The last game was war and demand overload in the begining. That was because we did TO much culture, and very little military.

Yeah, the AI seems to count on your power only on military in the beginning...

I got it. play tonight or tomorrow daytime.

You must be right about Nineveh, LK. When I read "flood plains" on microbe's log I jumped on it and assumed it could become our settler factory. So much for talking without checking the save myself... :smoke:

I totally agree on one (actually more) cities building military.

On city spacing: I still favour a very tight placement, especially if we want to achieve the 80k mark as quickly as possible.

I don't mind a tight build, but I don't like ICS kind of placement which looks like exploit to me. I'd prefer a reasonable tight build and play a mostly normal game.

Pre turn – Umm, not much doing yet. We know no one and have two cities.

Hit enter.

Ivory is connected. Warrior wins and promotes vs barb. Babylon temple -> warrior.

2510 bc (1) – Looks like some nice land we have here.

2470 bc (2) – Have to turn warrior around as barb appears near Nineveh.

IT – Babylon warrior -> warrior.

2430 bc (3) – Looks like no landbridge to the east.

IT – Nineveh warrior -> warrior.

2390 bc (4) – Turn NE warrior due north.

IT – Babylon warrior -> settler.

2350 bc (5) – Not much doing.

2310 bc (6) – Barbs are just camped out on the mountains east of Nineveh.

2270 bc (7) – We meet Shaka. Trade him Masonry for WC and 5g. He’s still up The Wheel.

2230 bc (8) – Our NW explorer pops some barbs, big surprise.

IT – Nineveh warrior -> worker. We lose a warrior to barbs.

2190 bc (9) – No landbridge west, either. Shaka now has alphabet and IW, but he’s not interested in dealing.

2150 bc (10) – Nothing noteworthy.

I have left the barbs alone intentionally, as they just seem to be sitting there. There are 2 Zulu warriors near the dyes. Couple more barbs running around to the NW. Settler due next turn in Babylon. Worker in Nineveh due in 4.

>>>SAVE<<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-2150BC.zip)

And our lands:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK.JPG

Nice job, :goodjob: good idea to leave the barbs there, the RNG is sometimes awful. :ack:

So Zulu is in the north, and west is all ours. :eek:

Looks like expanding to the north first and get the settler factory up asap.

Too bad we cannot make more contacts and buy Alphabet yet. Should we raise sci bar and research it ourselves? I don't think we can buy it anytime soon, considering Zulu also doesn't have it.

EDIT: which tech enables curragh? We should build one asap.

Alphabet is the one need for Curraghs.

Alphabet is the one need for Curraghs.
I would certainly like to know what to offshore land masses are. Are they simple little islands, or another continent. Even little islands are important targets for us - every possible city brings us closer to 80K.

LKendter
Microbe
SesnOfWthr
Ankka (currently playing)
Karasu (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map.

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the attack civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks. This pretty much rules out alliances and MPPs.

6) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

7) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

I agree, even those one or two tile islands are needed.


Oh dear, Why am I always up in all of my SG's at the same time? I am sorry but I need a skip. 2 SG's for one day is enough, and propably I will be playing the other one tomorrow as well.

LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
SesnOfWthr
Ankka (skipped)
Karasu (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map.

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the attack civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks. This pretty much rules out alliances and MPPs.

6) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

7) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

Ok. I got it.

From what I understood of our discussion, I will move the settler towards the settler factory site, and try to speed up Alphabet.

Any other comments before I start playing (most likely later tonight)?

We culd build the SoZ... but I doubt we'll need it and it'll only slow down our settling and getting more culture so I doubt it would be a clever choice to build it.

Map Makng will be important, so we'll get cities onto those little islands... we'll want every city possible.

Settling is more important than wonders. We are going for 80K, not 20K. First more cities. Culture wise those wonders aren't much better than an early temple or library.

Settling is more important than wonders. We are going for 80K, not 20K. First more cities. Culture wise those wonders aren't much better than an early temple or library.

I can't agree more - a temple + library is a good as most wonders. Once double it beats more wonders.

I will have to dig out me sheet talking about the per shield culture gain of the various buildings.

The culture value to us

Temple = 2 cpt for 30 shields - 15 shields per cp.
Library = 3cpt for 40 shields - 13.33 shields per cp.
University = 4 cpt for 100 shields - 25 shields per cp.
Coliseum = 2 cpt for 100 shields - 50 shields per cp.
Heroic Epic = 4 cpt for 200 shields - 50 shields per cp.
Great Library = 6 cpt for 400 shields - 66 shields per cp. This has the advantage of a block of NO research to rush culture. It has a lot of hidden value.
Statue of Zeus = 4 cpt for 200 shields - 50 shields per cp. However, the value of the massive amount of ancient cavalry can't be ignored.

As you can see from the above chart the most culture bang for the buck is temples / libraries. Coliseums SUCK for culture and should be the last choice to build. In fact I would push for a wonder from a heavy shield city before I waste my time on coliseums

Pre-turn
Give a look around, set research slider to max (Alphabet due in 8 at -1 gpt) and press Enter.
Shaka has got Alphabet but won't trade it. He is also up The Wheel and Iron Working

Babylon: Settler - Barracks

Turn 1 - 2110 BC
Northern warrior (Alvar) scouts north
Western warrior (Boris) moves back towards our settlements

Turn 2 - 2070 BC
More scouting.
Settler leaves Nineveh accompanied by Carmen

IT
Nineveh: Worker - Temple

Turn 3 - 2030 BC
Settler moves with its escort. Workers follow. Barbarians follow too... :hmm:

Turn 4 - 1990 BC
Settler moves; Workers follow; the three Barbs previously fortified near Nineveh are faced by Carmen and Dorothy. Two more coming from the east will find Boris on their way.

IT
Carmen and Dorothy easily fend off the Barb attack. Carmen promotes to veteran.
Boris is slayed by a single barb warrior.

Turn 5 - 1950 BC
Alphabet is now due in six turns at 70% science, 0 gpt.

Ok. I am going to pause here for some discussion.
I *think* that a 4-turns settler factory is possible between city sizes 4 and 6 by settling 1a, 1b or 1c below and working the "X" tiles; if it isn't because of not enough shields, it will work between size 5 and 7 I guess, with an additional irrigated plain (assuming no wasted shields... :hmm: ).

At this point, we could use the remaining flood plains. For instance, a 5-turns worker factory could be available with a city in 2a or 2b working two flood plains and a plains tile.

This is the first thing that came to my mind, at least -there will probably be better possibilities.
Besides, it will probably only work if we build the Palace or the Forbidden Palace over there.

Right now, I would favour settling 1a and 2b -I don't care too much for placing cities on Flood Plains. Moreover, 1a has immediate access to both BGs without requiring border expansion.
If we go for this solution, I would consider settling 2b first, and start roading and improving towards 1a while Nineveh builds another settler.
1b and 2a also look good. Instructions?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Options_LK69.jpg

BTW, there are also cathedrals in the list above, at 160 shields (80 for us) for 3 culture point, giving 26.6 shields per culture :)

I'd settle 2a and 1b, both wouldn't need the aquaduct..

From what I see 1B is the best. However, due to the corruption with despotism this will NOT be a 4 turn settler factory. Now it might be able to get use a few badly need workers. ;)

my vote would go to 1b as well, and I would push 2a either one, or maybe even two tiles NW.

As far as factory or not, isn't that a cattle under the NW "x"? Couldn't we make a factory by irrigating the cow, irrigating the wheat, and working some forest? I'm at work so i can't really see everything properly....

The issue isn't the food - the issue is 2nd ring corruption under despost.

Sorry I wasn't clearer. I understood the corruption problem, but I was wondering if we could produce enough shields to work it even with the corruption.

Then I realized that even if it could work for a cycle or two (hypothetically), any new cities close to babylon would raise corruption again making it a no go.

If 4-turn isn't possible, how about 5 or 6 turn?

We still need 1b I think, to be on the river and get the most shields.

Ok, then. 1b it is. I'll go settle directly there and leave the rest for future discussion.

I am going to need a skip this weekend, as I'm moving. Net will be set up at the new place on Thurs, but I won't be in till Monday. So for the four days, if I come up either skip me, or I can swap if appropriate.

LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
SesnOfWthr (skip Jun 3 to Jun 6)
Ankka
Karasu (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

I am going to be away from June 5th to June 8th, AFAIK now.

LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
SesnOfWthr (skip Jun 3 to Jun 6)
Ankka (June 5th to June 8th)
Karasu (currently playing)

We have a rough few days for players...

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The rest of the story...

Turn 6 - 1910 BC
Settler moves towards his destination; workers and warriors follow. More barbs approach

IT

Turn 7 - 1870 BC
More movements. A barb camp appears southeast of Babylon.

IT

Turn 8 - 1830 BC
Ashur founded. Temple.

IT

Turn 9 - 1790 BC
Move workers

IT

Turn 10 - 1750 BC
We discover Alphabet. The Zulus never wanted to sell it, not even when we were only one turn from discovering it.
Set research to Writing, due in 23 turns at 50% science (it is still possible to accelerate running a small deficit.

Notes
The temple in Nineveh can be switched to a Settler if we want -both would be due in 3 while pop growth is in 4.
Babylon is 1 turn from reaching pop 2 and 5 from Barracks; it cannot be switched to Curragh now without loosing shield.

Our world:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-1750BC.jpg

--- And the save --- (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-1750BC.zip)

LKendter (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
SesnOfWthr (skip Jun 3 to Jun 6)
Ankka (June 5th to June 8th)
Karasu

We have a rough few days for players...

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

We should build a curragh or two first in our capital.

Either Babylon or Nineveh should become a military town.

Either Babylon or Nineveh should become a military town.
Both can help out. To keep our expansion going both cities will have to supply an settler at times. The floodplain wheat city will stay on only settlers / workers. It has no other use. I would even avoid the temple for awhile in that city. 80K requires a lot of cities, and we can't afford that city to be tied up for a temple.

-------------------------------------

1750 BC
Where are the other civs? We are up to 4 luxuries on our continent.

Switching to the boat would waste 12 shields, so I will finish the barracks. We do need military help. We badly need more workers, so I switch Ashur to worker.


1725 BC
(IT) The Zulu help us out by killing the barb by Ashur.


1650 BC
(IT) Two barbs attack our warriors, and we kill both with one promotion to veteran.


1550 BC
We get another contact - Rome. They have the same techs as the Zulu, so we have nothing to trade.

1500 BC
Two barbs are killed in the southern camp.


Summary:
AVOID literature for science in the near future. The Great Library is a huge boast for letting us cash rush culture. At the moment our empire is too small to allow us to tie up a city on wonder building. We need to expand at the moment.

It is a lousy location, but I suggest the next settler head for the dyes. The Zulu are coming south toward us. That is the luxury most at risk.



Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
SesnOfWthr (skip Jun 3 to Jun 6)
Ankka (skip June 5th to June 8th)
Karasu (on deck)


We have a rough few days for players...

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-1500BC.zip

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map.

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the attack civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks. This pretty much rules out alliances and MPPs.

6) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

7) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

OK got it..

preturn: hmm, I decide to buy Writing from Rome for 42g. It's almost the same cost for self-research. I then go full speed on Philosophy in 10 turns. Worth a try?

(1)1475BC: Bomman clears barb camp and promotes to elite.

IBT Nineveh settler->settler. We get a palace expansion.

(2)1450BC: move settler.

IBT Rome kicks us out.

(3)1425BC: movement

IBT Babylon bowman->bowman.

(4)1400BC: Curragh spots a purple border.

(5)1375BC: We meet Vikings. He has Wheel and IW, so no trading available. He has also a worker for sale but we cannot afford.

With a mine completed Ninevsh is going to build settler one turn before pop grows, so I switch it to rax for now.

Babylon builds bowman starts another curragh.

(6)1350BC: movement

(7)1325BC: send curragh to west. Need to explore what's between Vikings and Romans.

I'm kinda lost what to build in Babylon, so I set to settler.

(8)1300BC: Ellipi is founded on the dyes. I start a temple for now.

(9)1275BC: more exploration.

IBT barb loses to our curragh. We are the first to Philosophy! [party] I choose Code of Law and start min on Republic.

(10)1250BC:
Philosophy to Rome for Mysticism+35g.
Philosophy+Mysticism to Zulu for Wheel+107g.
Philosophy+Mysticism+68g to Vikings for Iron Working + HBR.

We are up CoL for everybody.

There is iron at the far east which we want asap. We do not have horses.

I have moved our military to the north, but then I realize we have a settler due in the south which needs an escort. You probably want to build a warrior in Babylon after the settler, and use the existing warrior as escort.

We do need to keep producing military - AI may demand techs. Rome has legions already. :(

Idea on which spot to settle first?

My thinking is that the settler from Ashur should go NW to seal our land. The tile which is 3 or 4 tile NW to Ashur looks like a nice spot. It would also bring more shields to Ashur without the need of a temple.

The settler from Babylon should go east to settle on furs. Next settler should go to claim the iron.

Ashur should probably build a worker before next settler.

I need a skip again, sorry. :undecide:

I Got it. Not sure if I can play today, though.

Or, ,as I think better, I don't. Just give me some ideas on what to do here...

Just read all reports and discussion, especially the last one. The main job is still more settling. Babylon and Neneveh could oscilate b/t settler and military.

OK, I put it back :D

I haven't seen the save yet. I'll try to give a look and come back for some discussions if you feel like.

Ok... let's see how badly I can get this messed up...;)





:joke:

Babylon and Neneveh could oscilate b/t settler and military.
This is the perfect plan. It might be two troops per settler to help the other cover the other heavy food cities.


Idea on which spot to settle first?
I think we also have the wheat near Babylon not claimed. We do need all those resources, but we need cities that can grow and supply settlers.

===============================

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
SesnOfWthr (skip Jun 3 to Jun 6)
Ankka (currently playing) (skip June 5th to June 8th)
Karasu (on deck)

We have a rough few days for players...

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

Ok, I played the turns...:


1250BC [Preturn]: Check stuff to see where we are going.. Reset personal prefs.
Press enter.

IBT: Ashur settler > settler.

1225BC [1]: The settler rom Ashur moves NW, and I will settle it on the plains 3 NW from Ashur.

IBT: Babylon settler > warrior.

1200BC [2]: Setler from Babylon moves East and is accompanied by a warrior escort.

The curraghs explore around...


The Zulus and Vikings now have Map Making, trade CoL to the Vikings for Map Making + 118 gold.

The Zulus and Romans are quite poor, so I don't think trading is a good idea.

1175BC [3]: Settle Akkad > temple. When the border reveals some area, it also reveals a Zulu warrior... on our side. :rolleyes: Well, I guess it can't do that much harm.

More exploring with the curraghs.

IBT: A barb warrior approaches Ashur.

The Zulu warrior comes into our borders, but seems like it's only on it's way home...

Babylon warrior > warrior. We could use some military...

1150BC [4]: The barb is in a place where it can't be reached this turn.. next turn then.

IBT: The Zulus have another warrior there too...:rolleyes:

Nineveh barracks > warrior.

1125BC [5]: Elite bowman kills barbarian easily.

Some exploring with curraghs...

IBT: Looks like the Zulu warrior isn't heading immidiately out of our area... let's see what happens.

Babylon warrior > galley. We need a ship to transport a settler to the nearby island.

1100BC [6]: Build Uruk on the more Northern furs. > temple.

IBT: One of our curraghs is attacked by a barb galey, but we win & get a promotion to veteran.

Nineveh warrior > warrior. Nineveh would build settler one turn before growth, so I decide to do this.

1075BC [7]: Exploring...

IBT: Doesn't look like the Zulu are withdrawing their forces... I block them with a warrior.

1050BC [8]: We meet the Aztecs!

They are a big nation, lot's of cities, but we have got Philo and CoL over them. They are poor though, so no trading...

Adjust lux to 30% to prevent Ashur from rioting.

IBT: Nieveh warrior > settler.

1025BC [9]: Nothing really...

IBT: Looks like the Zulu warrior just did some barb- hunting... the other one goes back towards home.

1000BC [10]: Nothing really. You may want to switch Babylon to a settler, but I though it would be too much production lost if it went back to size 1 again for a while...

And the save to next better player. :)

Build Uruk on the more Northern furs. > temple.
That is the type of news I like to hear. We have at least 2 luxuries. :D

==============================

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
SesnOfWthr (skip Jun 3 to Jun 6)
Ankka (skip June 5th to June 8th)
Karasu (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

Youp. Got it. Will probably play it tomorrow.

That is the type of news I like to hear. We have at least 2 luxuries. :D


2? We have 3: ivory, dyes and furs.

Flash update: I won't be able to play until tonight and to post until tomorrow. If that's ok with the team, well... ok :D Otherwise I can swap or simply leave it.
Things should be easier after the weekend.

When things start going wrong, they all do that at the same time... :p
Among a long list of other things, I lost the save when my stupid laptop decided to crash. Anyway, there were few events:

- I build a few warriors and a couple more settlers (Nineveh is completing a warrior and I was planning to start a worker, whose completion would coincide with pop growth).
- I sent northwards the settler from Ashur, to somewhat close "our lands", and fortified a few troops there.
- The second settler (the one from Nineveh) went down to the wheat south of Babylon.
- I rushed Temples in the new cities -Ellipi, especially, needs border expansion and some improvements to grow
- We met the Mongols, who are on tech par with us. They also built the Colossus.
- The Galley discovered a couple one-tile islands west of Babylon. It ventured for a brief ocean trip, but not seeing anything worth I sent her back. She is on a sea tile now, I hope it won't sink... :mischief:

That's more or less it. I am sorry but I cannot post a screenshot, as I am using a really lousy internet connection from home. See you back on Monday!

HERE YOU GO (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-750BC.zip)

LKendter (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
SesnOfWthr (skip Jun 3 to Jun 6)
Ankka (skip June 5th to June 8th)
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

750 BC
My number one worry at the moment is military. I can't believe the absurd amount of warriors we have, yet we have almost zero spearman and limited bowman. NO more warriors please - we need quality units. I switch Nineveh to bowman.

I really hate to drop Babylon is size, as it is the only other city for military. However, I don't feel we can afford the shield loss to swap to military.

Culture wise we are doing well at the moment as we double our nearest rival. They will build some wonders soon. However, we have 2 more temples coming up soon.

The other good news is luxury number three will soon be connected.

Diplomatic check finds I can send Code of Laws and $50 to the Aztecs, and get Polytheism. I ship Polytheism to the Mongols for $215. I buy math from the Vikings for $210. We have tech parity again.
(IT) :cry: Our galley sinks.

710 BC
Samarra is formed. This city gives us the right to build the FP. This is something we will need ASAP.
(IT) The Aztecs complete the Pyramids.


670 BC
I ship Rome Math for $40 and a worker. We are really short of workers and I am happy to even get a half speed. That worker moves toward first ring Samarra.

I whip a temple in corrupt Eridu. Thanks for a forest chop another temple completes in 2 in Uruk.

650 BC
Eulbar is formed. This city badly needs water delivered to its doors.

Rome is the first to Republic. No way that we can buy Republic at monopoly.

570 BC
I love seeing Babylon with a doubled temple already.
(I) Rome completes the Oracle.



Summary:
Keep Akkad on workers for now. We are critically short of them. Get them back toward our core. All of our first ring cities need help.

Keep Babylon on Zeus. 4 cp for 200 shields isn't great, but we can certainly use the free military.


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
SesnOfWthr (on deck) (skip Jun 3 to Jun 6)
Ankka (skip June 5th to June 8th)
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-550BC.zip

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map.

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the attack civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks. This pretty much rules out alliances and MPPs.

6) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

7) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

This is the northern front. The warrior is exploring the space with the fog. If this is a marsh, then we have a long-term site to go after. The settler targeted for NE from where it is. A few flips will really help our 80K goal.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LAK-401.jpg


This is our core cities. The red line is the worker heading to help Samarra. The yellow line is the badly needed water for Eulbar. The grey line is the development area to get more shields to Uruk. With more development we can easily get the FP a lot sooner. We really need the corruption help, and 2 cpt doesn't hurt.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LAK-402.jpg

preturn: not much to do.

We are short of settlers..

MM Ashur to get settler still in 14 turns but with +5 food.

Rome demands Polytheism! I cave according to the rules.

(1)530BC: I buy 2 workers from Rome by 232g.

Warrior reveals marshes as expected. Move settler NW instead of NE - it's on a hill. Although NE seems to have more tiles after expansion, I think at this location we should worry more about defense, and we can always pack in more cities around it.

(2)510BC: Found Nippur, start temple.

Our currash sees a razed city spot - looks like Rome and Vikings are at war? That's why they don't exchange techs.

I buy Monarchy from Aztecs for Math+2gpt+434g. Since we are religious I revolt right away. We are still 18 turns to Republic.

(3)490BC: ZZZ

IBT Rome is attacked but wins.

(4)470BC: We are Monarchy.

MM to get FP in 38 turns. Zeus due in 25 and will be even shorter when Babylon grows.

Aztecs starts ToA - this will boost culture significantly.

(5)450BC: ZZZ

(6)430BC: Rome gets Construction but still lacks Monarchy, and Republic is not spreading around. So I get Construction+1g from Rome by Monarchy. We are one tech to Middle Ages.

(7)410BC: ZZZ
(8)390BC: ZZZ

Mongols has Republic! I get it plus 54g by Monarchy+Mathmatics. Start min on Currency.

Hmm, this is unexpected. I sell Republic to Zulu for 333g (full price), and to Aztecs for 526g.

Should we revolt again? We have 27 units. It means in Republic we'll pay 34gpt as unit support as opposed to 7. Our total pop is 27, so we'll get some extra commerce in Republic, but not going to compensate for that due to corruption. I think we should stay in Monarchy until we grow bigger? I'll leave it to next leader anyway.

I rush three temples by about 200g.

IBT: Nippur temple->worker. Samarra temple->worker. Eulbar temple->harbor.

(9)370BC: settler moves to iron.

(10)350BC: Uruk grows and FP is due in 23 turns.

Our culture is 764 while the closest AI is 280. :D And we are 2nd in score and power (Aztecs is the strongest).

Note: there are some barbs in the south. I am moving a bowman from babylon to clear the camp (I should have done this earlier). A warrior is fortifying next to Samarra to protect the workers.

Ashur should keep popping up settlers. I MM'ed it to have most food this turn and you should adjust it for more shields next turn. It needs MM to get the most out of it.

Rush settlers if needed.

Oh maybe we should rush a temple in Ashur too when we get a chance. It's less than 120g. :)

We should establish some embassies too, since we have 804g in bank.

This is the map.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-350BC.jpg

Rome demands Polytheism! I cave according to the rules.
We have left despotism, so that rule is not in effect anymore. :D
2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map.
We can now tell the AI to shove tech demands.

----------------------------------------------------

Should we revolt again? We have 27 units. It means in Republic we'll pay 34gpt as unit support as opposed to 7. Our total pop is 27, so we'll get some extra commerce in Republic, but not going to compensate for that due to corruption. I think we should stay in Monarchy until we grow bigger? I'll leave it to next leader anyway.
With the recent changes to Republic (extra military upkeep cost), I don't think it is much better then Monarchy. My vote is stick with Monarchy. LK67 was Monarchy for quite a while, with a small empire, and we did fine.

----------------------------------------------------

We should establish some embassies too, since we have 804g in bank.

Rush settlers if needed.

Oh maybe we should rush a temple in Ashur too when we get a chance. It's less than 120g.

I agree 100%. Build every embassy now. Rush the temple in Ashur. Rush settlers from the 90% corrupt cities. Let the good cities build the needed military. Cash in our hands = demands. I want to clear out the cash for more culture and settlers for future culture.

----------------------------------------------------

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
SesnOfWthr (currently playing) (skip Jun 3 to Jun 6)
I don't want to do a double skip. I will give SesnOfWthr the expect time for got it.
Ankka (on deck) (skip June 5th to June 8th)
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map.

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the attack civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks. This pretty much rules out alliances and MPPs.

6) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

7) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

We started min in Currency, but should we set max to literature? I think we should get those libraries asap as we don't seem to have anything else to build except military/workers.

I don't really think we need Great Library - we'll beeline to Education anyway, and AI is very slow even at emperor.

We started min in Currency, but should we set max to literature? I think we should get those libraries asap as we don't seem to have anything else to build except military/workers.
The only trouble is we don't have the GPT to do this except to burn down our cash reserves. Our GPT is horrible at the moment. The next player should still see if we can get decent rate toward it.

At all - it is time to start growing our core.
We need to improve our cash flow. Samarra, Babylon, Uruk, Eulbar and Nineveh need to get to size 6, even size 12 ASAP. Stop building settlers / workers out of these cities. We need a stronger economy and production quickly. We have enough junk cities to help with settlers at this point.

I got a chance to look at the game. I was really hoping our lousy 9 gpt was because of outstanding AI deals. We are only shipping $2/turn to other nations. It is because our core cities are too small to support the number of buildings we have. All those temples are killing us for maintenance.

I know I am repeating myself, but if we don't start growing our core cities for more gpt Babylon will be broke.

I don't know if I'm still w/in my 24, but I got it anyhow, and I should be able to play tonight.

EDIT: reading through the thread and trying to catch back up, I realized the tech choice is unclear. I see that we currently have it set to Currency at minimum. I would think currency would bve the tech of choice, but if gpt is the biggest issue than I think max research with some market prebuilds would be the order of the day. However, I see some conversation on Literature, which is only good for the culture building libraries.

Can someone clear this up? Do we want currency at max (sustainable) research?

I agree with sticking with Currency and trying to expand/improve. That certainly looks more important than building a few libraries right now.

On the military side, I saw nothing wrong with warriors -once we upgrade them, of course. I have realized only yesterday that the upgrade cost is higher in C3C, so that's certainly one point against building too many (I need more experience before I know how much though).
I normally build very few defensive units, and without horses... The Statue of Zeus looks indeed like a nice pick for our military.

I heartily agree with building the FP in Uruk.

Can someone clear this up? Do we want currency at max (sustainable) research?

We make a lousy +9 gold / turn. We have no such thing as max research. However, I agree we DON'T need libraries at the moment. We really need to imrpove the economy. Markets head us toward that goal.

I just realized I completely missed a settler factory! We are now a monarchy. The city with the wheat should be able to become a 4-turn settler factory. With the wheat irrigated, along with maybe one tile, this should become our settler factory. Get our workers down there, and switch to granary. We can keep our civ growth going without slowing the settling pace. :D

We need to get several workers down there and get that city going now.

The big question is what after Zeus? I am not sure if there are more wonders worth going for. I know ToA is out of reach.

Hi all, I'm back now. :)


I agree on that, we need some economy. Markets, then libraries...

Just an update. Apparently my cable modem is smarter than me. :( I was unable to get it up and running last night and the techs had gone home. If you don't mind waiting, I'll get it set up when I call them tonight. If the wait is an issue, then all I can do is apologize.

Just an update. Apparently my cable modem is smarter than me. :( I was unable to get it up and running last night and the techs had gone home. If you don't mind waiting, I'll get it set up when I call them tonight. If the wait is an issue, then all I can do is apologize.


Have you finished the game and just unable to post it? If so, and you can't get the cable modem to work - can you post the game from this source? Long delays can really kill interest in an SG.

Nope, this is my work computer. Not allowed to even DL anything on it. I was not able to even pick up the save, much to my chagrin. :blush: I realize that delays can be a real drag, which is why I posted the update in the first place.

I should add that I have the utmost confidence that I will be able to get the modem running when I get home, but the earliest I could have the save is approx. 12 hrs from now.

The big question is what after Zeus? I am not sure if there are more wonders worth going for. I know ToA is out of reach.

What else to build except wonders then? ;)

I'd always keep a prebuild going. Culture-wise Great Library would be good to have.

EDIT: We don't need ToA. We'll build temples ourselves.

Yes, the GLib is awesome in culture. If we can get it, would be a nice bonus. :)

I'd always keep a prebuild going. Culture-wise Great Library would be good to have.

If we want prebuilds, then someplace other then the capitol will need to get involved. We need to get another city up to speed.

Turns out I am smarter than the modem. :smug: Well, if I select the right network that is. :blush:

At any rate, I haven't seen any instructions to skip me, so i have successfully grabbed the save and will start playing now.

Updates soon. :)

Pre turn – Getting back in the groove. Looking at Ashur, it may be difficult to get a factory, due to the high corruption. Seems to be around 40% corrupt or so. Up sci to 50%, curr due in 21 @ -8gpt. Change Samarra to granary for market pre-build.

Embassies:
Zulu(36g) – Iron, horses, and wine. Size 6, 72g, ToA in 2. 16 spt, 14 fpt, 18 cpt, 3 Enkidu.
Viking(42g) – Iron, horse, wine. 9 spt, 15 fpt, 13 cpt. Size 6, 4g, ToA in 13. 2 spears.
Rome(41g) – Dyes. 4 spt, 11 fpt, 11 cpt. Oracle, 2 legions and 2 spears. Size 5, 0g.
Mongol(46g) – Spices and silk. Colossus, Toa in 100 :lol:. 4 spt, 14 fpt, 26 cpt. Size 6, 0g, 2 spears.
Aztecs(94g!) – Incense, silk. Size 8, 37g, 11 spt, 18 fpt, 12 cpt. Pyramids, ToA in 32, 6 spears.
Still 545g in the bank.

330 bc (1) – Trade Ragnar Republic for lit and 5g, all he has. If I sell it back around, I can get approx. 150g. I’ll wait a turn or two to see if anything else comes up. Change Nineveh to GL. It says 98 turns, but it’s still size 2.

310 bc (2) – Zimbabwe builds ToA. Vikings cascade to GL. They should probably get it in 15 turns or so. Available cash for lit is around 75g now.

290 bc (3) – Ragnar wants MA vs Rome. Doesn’t really keep with the whole pacifist thing. Our vet warrior rl’s, promotes, and disperses camp. Our vet bowman in forest was killed by two barb horses. Rush temple in Ashur.

270 bc (4) – Vikings and Romans sign peace. :lol: Vikings complete GL, apparently they were closer than I had guessed. Change Nineveh to lib. Shuruppak and Zariqum founded. With new cities, currency can be had in 12 going back to –8gpt economy.

250 bc (5) – Not much doing.

230 bc (6) – Whack a couple barbs. Road to Zariqum(iron) finished. Currency seems to be dropping by two for each turn. Now says due in 8. :hmm: Nevermind, Aztecs have it, but want lit and 250g. I’ll wait a turn or two to see if they sell it around. Even if we can’t buy it, we’ll get it soon.

210 bc (7) – Currency in 7, Aztecs still want lit and 180g. Not much of a bargaining position since they’re at war with Mongols, and only know us otherwise.

190 bc (8) – Uh-oh. Reports of a massive uprising near Shurrupak. Computer crashes. Load autosave. Currency drops to two turns as Ragnar discovers it and promptly sells it around for peanuts. Trade lit to Aztecs for currency and 56g. Free tech is Mono. The barb camp near Samarra pops 8 horse 1 turn before warrior arrives.

170 bc (9) – Quickly log onto to CFC to make sure it’s OK to tell Monty to stuff his Monotheism demand. It is, and I do. He declares. We lose one warrior to barbs. Another stack appears near Ashur. Rush a granary in Ashur before the barbs hit.

150 bc (10) – Strangely, the barbs don’t move any closer. We still have 187g in the bank, so if the southern barbs come, we should probably rush something else.

>>>SAVE<<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-150BC.zip)

Were we researching Currency at full with monopoly price? We should not have done that. We should have waited until we were last then buy (preferred) or research it. Remember we are the only scientific civ, so we can get all the money back immediately. That's why I started min on it.

This game isn't about space race. We don't need to be tech lead and we want the tech pace to be slow.

The thinking was to enable us to get to markets sooner. I actually asked for some clarification on that issue before I even started playing. Actually, before I even straightened out my modem issues.

I think you're saying that we could sell back our free tech for the money, but why not hold onto it until we can trade it for another tech? No one else is getting a tech anytime soon, and even when they do, the AI seems to make Feudalism the higher priority.

We don't need to be tech lead and we want the tech pace to be slow.

For the most part I agree. The only exception is to kill the ToA asap. Whoever builds the ToA will get education even if we give it to them for FREE. That wonder must must go to avoid any AI getting a lot of culture.

========================================

Quickly log onto to CFC to make sure it’s OK to tell Monty to stuff his Monotheism demand. It is, and I do. He declares.
Let's make sure we have some bowman by the coast. I would like to get our GA.

Now that we have currency - we need marketplaces even BEFORE culture in the core. We need to improve our GPT ASAP.

========================================

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
SesnOfWthr
Ankka (currently playing)
Karasu (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

Actually our military is pretty weak at the moment. I tried to hold off on building more units because of our unit costs and the larger gpt issue.

Actually our military is pretty weak at the moment. I tried to hold off on building more units because of our unit costs and the larger gpt issue.

The next player needs to build some Bowman ASAP. We need them go the our GA. If the Aztecs draw an ally from our continent it could get messy.
Can we at least upgrade a few warriors? Every combat factor helps avoid being see as weak.

I don't want another LK45 dogpile of death.

Ok, looks like I'm up... I'll try and play the turns today evening, I'm going to play some Civ 2 multiplayer with my friend now...:D

1550BC [Preturn]: Now let's see how we are doing... Lots of barbs aroound, seems.

Press enter and hope I didn't forget something...

IBT: Mongols and Aztecs sign peace.

Lots of barbs attack a bowman on a mountain near Ashur, but we lose after some 5 of them. :(

130BC [1]: Curraghs move around.

IBT: Aztecs start the Great Wall..

110BC [2]: Curraghs explore.

IBT: A barb kills our workr, my fault. :cringe:

90BC [3]: Kill the barb horse that killed our worker.

IBT: Babylon builds the Statue of Zeus! :cool: Starts bowman.

Ellipi worker > library.
Zariqum worker > temple.

The Vikings start the Great Wall.
Romans start the Hanging Gardens.

70BC [4]: We are doing onnly -1gpt now... luckily we are getting the FP soon, that'll help at least a little.

IBT: Mongol demand Monotheism, I tell thm to get out of here. They don't declare... cowards...

Now the Zulu aso demand it. I think about it... they are strong, our army is tiny... I say no way. They declare war. Uh- oh. They bring 2 archers and a sword to our border. Was this so clever after all? I doubt it..

Ashur settler > settler.

50BC [5]: Switch Nippur from worker to bowman.

IBT: The Zulus bring some Impi's to the border.

The few barb horses near Ashur run around wildly, dunno where they are going to...

Babylon bowman > bowman.

Aztecs start Mausollos'.
Aztecs finish the Hanging Gardens.

30BC [6]: Rush bowman in Nippur for 52 gold.

Press enter in mistake. :cringe: Lots of things aren't done...

IBT: The Zulus bring loads of troops to the border. Too many for us. :(

Nippur bowman > bowman.
Eridu settler > bowman.
Eulbar harbor > bowman.

10BC [7]: Now the situation is bad. The save is here, I can continue but I think you need to tell me what I should do... :undecide:

Oops, forgot the save. Sorry, I forgot to rename it.

I cannot look at the save now. I could do that tonight and post tomorrow, but by then things will already have been discussed I guess :)

As a somewhat general comment... is it possible to hold them at our norther borders? If Impis start running around outside the forested area, we are going to have some trouble.
Most of all, we should try to ally with someone (possibly Rome) against the Zulus. Have we got money or techs to give them for a MA?

Other than that, I haven't got many ideas... good luck ;)

EDIT: I'll give a look at the save anyway, in case I come back in time

I cannot look at the save, but why did we say no? I would have personally said yes to both demands.

The first time when Rome demanded tech in my turns I said yes (by rules), and it immediately declared on Vikings.

That's also why I don't believe we could hold a tech for too long, to answer sesn's question.

Without seeing the save, I think we just fortify in our towns and pray. Let them capture a couple towns and sue for peace.

I'll look at the save and post in 2 hours.

IBT: Mongol demand Monotheism, I tell them to get out of here. They don't declare... cowards...

Why didn't we already sell Monotheism? We never should have had tech around in the first place!

=========================================

Now the Zulu also demand it. I think about it... they are strong, our army is tiny... I say no way.

Why did you refuse? You admitted our army sucks. The aggressive AI Zulu almost never backs down.

Repeating the game goal - PASSIVE cultural win!

=========================================

Press enter in mistake. Lots of things aren't done...
A reload is perfectly valid in this case unless you get to much knowledge from the IT.

=========================================

Now the situation is bad. The save is here, I can continue but I think you need to tell me what I should do...
I can't look at the save at this time, but the second the Zulu will talk take peace no matter how absurd the price. The only thing I want first is a Bowman to win for our GA.

I can look at the save, but it will be around 10 hours before I can comment.

=========================================

Most of all, we should try to ally with someone (possibly Rome) against the Zulus.
Remember the variant rules - peace as soon as free. We will have to break the alliance destroying our rep.

Why didn't we already sell Monotheism? We never should have had tech around in the first place!

I dunno about this. I was just plain stupid... and didn't even think of it. :blush: I am awful at trading, and there's always something I forget, no matter how well I try to play. :(




Why did you refuse? You admitted our army sucks. The aggressive AI Zulu almost never backs down.

I don't know. It was odd of me... Sorry. I guess I should go back to the tutorial... :wallbash:


A reload is perfectly valid in this case unless you get to much knowledge from the IT.

I didn't know this... :undecide:

I have thought about it, I will play the rest of the turns now... let's see if I can get this messed up a little worse...:rolleyes: :(

Oh well, here's the rest of the turnlog. Seems like we aren't in so much of a trouble so fast, but we'll eventually be unless we get some military.



10BC [7]: Trade MA with the Romans against the Zulu for Literature.

Kill a barb horse with a bowman.
Kill a barb horse with a warrior.
Kill the last barb horse with a warrior.
Kill a barb warrior with a warrior.

IBT: Looks like the MA saved us, most of the offending Zulu swords turn around towards Rome. :)

The Zulu attack Nippur with a reg sword, our vet bowman wins and we get a Golden Age. :D

The Zulu move all but a few archers and Impi's away from attacking us. They land an Impi and settler near Shuruppak, though.

Babylon bowman > swordsman.
Uruk builds the Forbidden Palace > bowman. We only have warriors around.

We get a palace expansion. :yeah:

10AD [8]: Move troops around, MM cities for GA.

I know this is late, but trade Mono to the Vikes for 56 gold.
Trade Mono to Mongolia for 20gold. :rolleyes:

Two vet bowmen kill 2 reg archers near Nippur, the Zulus only have 2 Impi's and one settler in our area now.

IBT: Our vet bowman kills a sword, but the Zulus now bring many into our view.

SoZ produces an AC.
Akkad lib > bowman.
Eridu bowman > bowman.
Samarra market > bowman.

30AD [9]: The Zulu still won't accept our emissary.

I see 5 swords now. This will get bloody.

Rush bowman in Nippur for 72 gold.

IBT: The Zulus have some 10 or so swords ready to attack Pisae, a Roman town. :eek:

Babylon sword > sword.
Ashur settler > settler.
Nippur bowman > bowman.
Uruk bowman > bowman.

50AD [10]: Move troops around.... The Zulus have acity in the middle of our empire, we should get it destroyed ASAP, although it's totally useless for them and will be totally corrupt.. we'll propably get a "free" city from it.

We have troops going North, I hope they get in time. The Zulus have a SoD near Pisae, it's gonna be tough.

We have 2 settlers in the Western area, I don't know where they should settle, but they are there accompanied with warriors.


Once more I apologise for the stupid moves I made. :wallbash: I should have understood our situation better, and not be so proud...

From the variant rules:
5) We must accept peace once the attack civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks. This pretty much rules out alliances and MPPs.

Most of all, we should try to ally with someone (possibly Rome) against the Zulus.
Remember the variant rules - peace as soon as free. We will have to break the alliance destroying our rep.


10BC [7]: Trade MA with the Romans against the Zulu for Literature.

I don't know what to do that this point. We have broken the intent of the variant. Read number 5. Read my reminder comment. Despite that an alliance was signed.

[delete pointless suggestions]

I agree with Lee completely. Why did we sign the MA? I'd rather lose one city instead (and if we were lucky we wouldn't have, because I built that city on a hill). I was about to post a suggestion but now it's pointless so I deleted it.

We probably could continue to play and win, but the bigger problem is that I see people were not understanding the game and thus have chosen wrong tactics, or maybe just were in a haste to play by thinking this was an "easy" game.

I don't know what to do that this point. We have broken the intent of the variant. Read number 5. Read my reminder comment. Despite that an alliance was signed.


I know this, but there wasn't much to do at the point: there were loads of Zulus coming in... the MA saved us.


If you wish to replay my turns, feel free to do it, though..

I feel this game has violated the sprit of the variant.

I clearly failed on my wording on the variant rules. Signing alliances, and defiant attitude on our continent when are weak were not my game intentions. I have listed the rules again at the bottom of this post.

I want to hear comments from the other player on how they feel. Reread rule #7. IMHO we are not playing the spirit of the variant.

The options are to void the last 10 turns, or void the game. Let me know how you feel. I favor considering the game voided.

=======================================

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map.

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the attack civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks. This pretty much rules out alliances and MPPs.

6) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

7) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

I know this, but there wasn't much to do at the point: there were loads of Zulus coming in... the MA saved us.


Ankka, AI will talk in at most 10 turns, and at the end of you previous post there had been already 3 turns passed. As there are mostly jungles between Nippu and Eridu, we at most would have lost Nippu.

I am very sorry for the mistake I made. I should have read the rules more carefully.

I say let's dump the last 10 turns I played, the game was fine so far.

Ankka, AI will talk in at most 10 turns, and at the end of you previous post there had been already 3 turns passed. As there are mostly jungles between Nippu and Eridu, we at most would have lost Nippu.


That is true. I should perhaps go and read the articles in the Academy...

I will only accept one of the following:
1. Start from Akka's first post when we were at war with Zulu but before the MA.
2. Void the game. Fine with me.

This is the situation at Ankka's turn 7, for lurkers.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-10BC.jpg

I will only accept one of the following:
1. Start from Akka's first post when we were at war with Zulu but before the MA.
2. Void the game. Fine with me.


Choice #1 works for me. We have to live with our actions.
Ankka, please replay the last part of your turns after the Zulu declared war.

We have about 3 bowmen and a warrior(?) in Nippu. Since it's on hill I suggest we fortify all the units there without attacking. Let Zulu attack us.

The next thing is to defend Eridu at all cost. Do we have enough units? Rush some if don't. Turn off science now to save gold. The majority of Zulu's units won't be able to reach us before it could take peace, I think, but it's closest units may ignore Nippu and go directly to Eridu in 3 turns. So start reinforcing now.

At last, don't just sell Monotheism for nothing!

EDIT: saw Arathorn's post. I think it's up to Lee. I just checked we paid Lit for the MA so I don't think it will trash our trading rep. It will make Rome furious with us and probably make future MA impossible which we don't need anyway.

[/lurk]

Why not just suffer the rep hit and try to get past that? That's really paying for your actions but staying semi-true to the variant. Peace ASAP and pay for it the rest of the game....

[lurk]

Arathorn

[/lurk]

Why not just suffer the rep hit and try to get past that? That's really paying for your actions but staying semi-true to the variant. Peace ASAP and pay for it the rest of the game....

[lurk]

Arathorn


Part of the problem here is my intention was to prohibit alliances / MPP. I screwed up at the variant rules. I thought this pretty much rules out alliances / mpp was clear enough.

===================================

I am putting this game back on HOLD while I think about this more.

Now that I have somewhat calmed down about the game situation I can think about it more clearly.

1) The last turn violated my intentions on how the game was to play out.

2) The last turn followed the rules as written.


The summary based on this is as follows:
1) Ankka turn stands. Per the written rules he did nothing wrong.

2) I can't ask the turn to be changed because a player failed to read my mind.

3) The screw up was MINE. I wasn't clear enough on my intentions with alliances.

4) Back to playing the game with Karasu playing.

5) I have rewritten the rules a little, and the new set is to be used effective NOW. I have now expressly banned alliances / MPP as was my original intention.

=================================

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
SesnOfWthr
Ankka
Karasu (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited form signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

Glad to see it's sorted out. :)

Back to game people! :hammer:

Let's sue for peace with Zulu asap. ;)

Wow!! I sure did miss a lot, huh? Amazing what happens when you're off painting your apartment all day.

FWIW, I would have voted for Microbe's "A", but I think playing it out is probably more appropriate.

I got a look at the game. I noticed that we are researching Theology @ 1st civ prices. Why are we researching at all? Microbe said it best - we need to keep the tech pace SLOW. Unless we are going for a specific wonder, we should NOT research at all. Or wait until more civs have the tech.

We need to hit 80K before a space launch. The slower the tech pace, the lower that risk.


On the game:
Why is there a Zulu settler / impi pair next to Nippur that is being ignored? Kill the settler and get us two workers.

Why is the bowman fortified outside of Eridu when the Zulu could attack the city? Either attack, or move the unit inside the city.

The second we get peace, please cancel all the military builds. We don't need a nation of bowman that has no useful upgrade path.

Theology was my oops. I figured that we would like to have Sistine's, so I set it to that at a slow pace.

Nice to see you sorted out. :)

I once more apologise for the messing up I did.



On the game:
Why is there a Zulu settler / impi pair next to Nippur that is being ignored? Kill the settler and get us two workers.


That was because we only had a reg bowman and two wounded vet bowmen around there IIRC and I didn't trust my RNG on attacking the Impi in a jungle.

Theology was my oops. I figured that we would like to have Sistine's, so I set it to that at a slow pace.

I agree we would really like Sistine. However, there is no sense researching it without a prebuild ready. We have NO prebuild.

============================

That was because we only had a reg bowman and two wounded vet bowmen around there IIRC and I didn't trust my RNG on attacking the Impi in a jungle.

Pain is what gets better, faster peace terms. A dead settler is pain, and workers for us. :D

============================

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
SesnOfWthr
Ankka
Karasu (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited form signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

I apologize for contributing to this mess with my suggestion of an alliance.
It came almost automatic; I honestly didn't even stop to think whether it would be against the spirit of the variant or not.

I am glad to see that we decided to carry on with the game -imho it is still very interesting, and we *can* play it passively :)

Btw, I got it and will play tonight.

And:
- Get that Zulu settler
- Peace with Zulus and dear Caesar, thanks a lot for your help but sorry...
- Slow down research (I am not sure that the time is right to freeze a city on a prebuild for Sistine yet).
- Where do we want to settle the new cities?

BTW, remember that we are in a Golden Age now, we got a bowman win. It should be used to the max. We can get lots of gpt if we turn research to 0%. We should try and get the Zulu city that's in the middle of our lands before we make peace... I think it will fall with an AC and a couple of bowmen, at least. Shouldn't be hard...


Good luck, Karasu.

I see I cross- posted.

-I think we can get 3 or 4 cities on the small Western landarea, we have 2 settlers there now.
-You could also build cities on the two small islands SW from Babylon, there's even a boat waiting there.
-In the East there's nice area, 3 oasis' etc. some cities can be added there.
-If you make peace there are some holes in the North which can be filled, one is straight to the East from Eridu, the other one West. A tight build is good there, the cities are hopelessly corrupt.

Slow down research (I am not sure that the time is right to freeze a city on a prebuild for Sistine yet).
There is NO better time then now. We are in a GA. The best possible time to build wonders is during our GA. I would find our strongest shield city to put on a palace prebuild right now. We have plenty of military to survive the Zulu until peace comes. If fact we are building to much and to many regulars. We need markets to pay for the culture, and more culture. Our closet Rival is the Zulu - and they have throw away cutlure with ToA.

The 80K variants means that we will build Churches. It would be crazy not to get a double happy effect from it.

We have 2 good shield cities - Babylon, which is making 17spt (IIRC), and Uruk, the FP city, which is making 20spt, but 3 of them are lost due corruption.

Thanks for the inputs, mates. Keep it coming! :)

Uruk, the FP city, which is making 20spt, but 3 of them are lost due corruption.

Switch Uruk to a palace prebuild. During our GA we only need 35 turns to build Sistine. Keep developing Uruk and get it to grow more. As I said - Sistine with having to build churches - is just to good to pass up.

We want theology to finish close to the palace prebuild running out. The AI will get feudalism first giving us a good start.

I mean, things are back in track now: we are at peace with everyone and in a relatively good situation.

The 'problem', so to speak, is that the Zulus made peace with Rome before I had a chance to talk to them.

Anyway, here what happened.


Pre-turn
Switch Uruk to Palace (due in 24) and set science to 30% (Theology comes in 21 turns). We are now making 24 gpt.

Attack Zulu Impi, redline it and capture their settler. The two workers are ordered to build a road under the protection of our bowman.

Switch Eulbar and Samarra to Libraries, Babylon to Marketplace.
Upgrade warrior to sword in Ellipi.

There are still some remains of a barb uprising. I count six horsemen south of Samarra. Move a warrior from Babylon in its direction (may be too late).

Check Zulus, but they won't talk. Ok, let's go...

Zulus attack and conquer Pisae with only one unit lost. They move towards Nippur with five Swords, one Archer and two Impis

Turn 1 - 70 AD
I retreat our troops from Nippur towards Eridu. Our two swordsmen converge there too.
I choose not to disband the city in the (faint) hope that we can retake it or that it will eventually flip to us.

IT
Zulus move into Nippur. Many more swordsmen and archers come from Pisae. Lots of Swordsmen... maybe I should have abandoned Nippur...

Turn 2 - 90 AD
Move troops towards Eridu. Rush walls in Eridu.
Two bowmen and a Cav are going to take Umfolozi. When was it built? I'll have to wait for its border to expand before we can take it (one advantage of their having the ToA at least...).

IT
Several Zulu units advance towards Eridu.

Nineveh: Marketplace - Swordsman
Samarra: Library - Aqueduct

A barb horseman comes out of its hut (as if we hadn't got enough trouble already!)
Our little curragh is chased by a barb galley

Turn 3 - 110 AD
Ebenezer comes out of Uruk and kills the barb horse.
Three Babylonian warriors attack the crowded barb camp south of Samarra.

We have eight Bowmen fortified behind the walls of Eridu, and two Swordsmen arriving next turn. Let the Zulu come!

IT
This is strange. The Zulu attack force does not attack Eridu and goes back to Nippur.
Feudalism is around, everyone starts building Sun Tzu.

We get another Ancient Cavalry. I like this wonder :)

Turn 4 - 130 AD
Our warriors keep on attacking the barb camp.
Found Sippar in the western peninsula.
Wait at the gates of Umfolozi.
Workers approach Eulbar to start irrigating
The Zulu won't talk

IT
Strau Zulu impi moves towards Ashur. The Ancient Cavalry is waiting for him.
A Scandinavian galley appears along our coasts.

Turn 5 - 150 AD
Disperse two barb camps in our southern region.
Dispatch the wandering Impi, but the Ancient Cav is redlined.

IT
Babylon: Marketplace - Library
Nineveh: Swordsman - Cathedral (vetoable)
Umfolozi finally gets border expansion

Turn 6 - 170 AD
Attack Umfolozi: another super-Impi kills our Ancient Cavalry single-handed and blindfolded. But the bowman takes revenge and captures the city - Temple.

The Zulus won't talk peace yet.
I do not see Zulu troops around Eridu, and decide to send our forces towards Nippur.

IT
Nothing happens

Turn 7 - 190 AD
Approach Nippur. There *are* Zulu Swordsmen in the area!

IT
Zulu units swarm around us outside Nippur

Turn 8 - 210 AD
Our little stack reaches the gates of Nippur. Zulu Swordsmen are outside the city, Impis defend it.
They seem to have quite a lot of units -I am not sure I will attack, I'll probably have to wait for Shaka to hear our plea for peace...

IT
We are attacked by Zulus, who loose at least six Swordsmen for no losses on our side. Hey, Bows in forest defend themselves well!

Zulus sign peace with Rome!

Turn 9 - 230 AD
Shaka would take peace now, but as things are I am inclined to try and retake Nippur: we do not like war, but we do not like to leave our cities in enemy hands either!
Attack Nippur, and loose three Bowmen and one Swordsman against two Impis. But the city is taken back, and we capture a Zulu settler

Make peace with Zulus, we get Umtata far north in the deal.
Aztecs will talk too, and peace is signed.

Umtata starts building a Temple

IT
Zariqum: Library - Marketplace (vetoable)

Turn 10 - 250 AD
Mari founded on the little island in front of Babylon
Larsa founded among the oases
Nimrud founded east of Eridu

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-250AD.jpg


Notes
This is the situation. I'm fine with proceeding any way you like.

A few misc notes about play:
- There is a Scandinavian Archer-settler pair that just entered our territory. We have plenty of time to settle our free areas before they arrive.
- I should have probably started an Aqueduct in Uruk before the prebuild. As things are, we can keep it at size 6 until Sistine comes, or switch to Aqueduct wasting about four turns worth of shields.
- I have left science at 20%. We are making 68 gpt and Theology is coming in 16 turns.
- Zulus and Rome lack Monotheism and could sell us Feudalism. Aztecs are up Feudalism and Engineering. I didn't start any deal.


--- Here is the save --- (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-250AD.zip)

Nice job there, and good thing Rome broke the alliance and not us. :D


Should we build a city on the 1- tile island a little SW from the new city on the bigger island?
Looks like we have space for 4 cities with a fairly loose build, or more with a tighter one...

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
SesnOfWthr
Ankka
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited form signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

Looking very, very good. :goodjob:

I meant to ask this before, but forgot, so I ask now. Where did you get those borders, LKendter? I haven't so far found those in the Graphics modpacks section... They look very nice, and I have started to dislike my clanky ones which are well visile but not so neat.

Where did you get those borders, LKendter?
I edited the border files myself. You won't find them anywhere.

It is the same thing for the thick black lined roads.

250 AD
I send Monotheism and $275 to Rome and we get Feudalism.

I switch Ashur to courthouse and partial rush with the cash left.

The area I am very unhappy with is our military. It is still mostly warriors. We have zero defense units. We have very little is useful offensive units either.

260 AD
(IT) The Aztecs complete the <insert wonder here> Tenochtitlan. That city is becoming a cultural monster.


270 AD
(IT) The Mongols complete the Great Wall. This is actually good news as the cascade is breaking.

310 AD
(IT) The Vikings complete the Great Lighthouse.


320 AD
(IT) Our GA has ended. :(
We suffer a single city riot - the bad part is it is our settler city.


330 AD
Zamua is formed. It claims a junk jungle area.
We destroy a barb camp.

We have a trade route with the Vikings. I ship them $41/turn for Engineering. To not put out rep as risk I ship them Dyes for $6/turn, Ivory for $7/turn, and Furs for $7/turn recovering a lot of our gpt.


350 AD
I rush some temples.


Summary:
Our current total is 2,531 vs. the Zulu 1,451. We gained 680 over 10 turns, while the Zulu gained just 339. When you consider a lot of that comes from ToA it looks good so far. The trick is the second we can get education we must give it the Zulu. ToA expires with education.

We still need a lot more culture to win. At this current growth rate we need over 1,000 turns to win. The rate will be improving as many cities are barely through the cheap temples. We still need more cities, libraries, churches, and the later wonders.

At some point we will want to chase the high culture wonders - Bach's, Shakespeare, and the big economy help of Smith's.

The better part is that our economy handles it much better then the last time I saw the game.

We have some cities that are free to build military because they already have churches. We still need coliseums, but at just 2 cp for 100 shields they are a lower priority. We are weak vs. every one except the Romans.

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
SesnOfWthr (on deck)
Ankka
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-350AD.zip

The two dot maps below are additions cities we want.

The 3 dots below are all LOW priority. They are inside our current borders. White will need the marsh cleared. Some of these are aggressive, but we need more cities. A flip or two would help our position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LAK-412.jpg


I just realized how horrible the placement of Uruk was. The white line shows the massive wastage of tiles. I marked where Uruk should have been. It is way too late to fix this, as it contains the FP, and an early temple. Not to mention the pre-build for Sistine. I really don't like yellow dot, but it is the best way to reclaim the wasted land.

Outside of yellow dot, the below dot's are the priority cities. The AI will be most likely to go after the junk grey dot, so let us claim that first.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LAK-413.jpg

These 9 cities still will probably still not be enough to win, but it gets us a lot closer.

preturn: nothing to change.

IBT Nippur completes a temple but riots.

(1)360AD: We irrigated a tile that no one can use? :hmm:

(2)370AD: Aztecs has Theology! We then get it in one turn. :lol: I buy it for 11g. I then buy Invention from Mongols with Theology+183g.

Min research to Printing Press. Switch Sun Tzu's to Sistine Chapel.

IBT Aztecs demands 26g, I cave.

(3)380AD: Zulu gets Chivalry but not Engineering/Theology, so I give him Engineering for Chivalry+40g+2gpt. I didn't give Theology, although it is closer to Education, I don't want it to cascade to Sistine.

(4)390AD: Not sure how this settler factory works in Ashur, now it grows to size 7 in one turn and settler due in 3 turns. I short-rush settler and make it grow to size 7 and builds a settler in 2 turns.

(5)400AD: There is a Viking settler/archer pair in our territory. I move units to block it.

(6)410AD: I think we should start prebuild for Copernicus? I set Samanrra to Knights Templar for now.

(7)420AD: Found Khorsabad. Disband a reg warrior.

(8)430AD: Disease hits Eridu. I rush library in it. I'm going to build a worker next. We need a lot more of them.

IBT Mongols builds KT.

(9)440AD: ZZ

IBT Palace expansion.

(10)450AD: Culture wise we have 102cpt, and Zulu has 35cpt in last turn. We are almost triple it. ;) Total culture is 3456 vs 1801. I don't think we need to give Education to Zulus anymore.

We are short of workers. After all spots are settled we need to build more workers. Maybe one of them can switch to worker now.

450AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-450AD.zip)

About the yellow dot, how about one of the following?

EDIT: Lee's yellow dot will utilize all the 8 tiles marked by the white line. The following two will still waste 2 or 3 tiles..so I think Lee's one is still better. So to avoid confusion I remove the image, but the link is here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-450AD.jpg).

I like the blue better, but it's a shame to miss the river by a tile ....

After a second thought I think Lee's original yellow dot is better, so just follow his dotmap.

Whatever the case, I got it.

(6)410AD: Samanrra set to KT as prebuild for Copernicus.

I think we should start prebuild for Copernicus?

If the city has already build temple, library and church - go for it!

=========================

Lee's yellow dot will utilize all the 8 tiles marked by the white line. The following two will still waste 2 or 3 tiles..so I think Lee's one is still better.
This is one of the closet cities to the capitol. My suggestion was to give it the best shot at size 12. Two tiles are more valueable, then a river toward that goal.

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
SesnOfWthr (currently playing)
Ankka (on deck)
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

480 ad – Paople expand the palace. Hindana, Tell Wilaya, and Karana founded. All three start temples.

510 ad – Education and gunpowder are now available, but we have no way to buy either. 132g and 38 gpt is getting close for education

530 ad – Some of our deals expire, jumping our income to 78 gpt. We can get education for cash on hand plus 53 gpt. Do we still want to do this even though we’re so far ahead? I also don’t understand how to calculate “market value” for techs, so I’ll hold off on this one. Adab founded this turn.

540 ad – Another palace expansion. Telloh is founded near Uruk.

550 ad – Not a whole lot going on.

My turns were spent moving units, improving the land and trushing a few temples, with the highlights listed above.


>>>SAVE<<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-550AD.zip)

I think we should pump up research on PP to get it in 10 turns, then trade for those techs?

Depends on how fast we can get Education... not a bad idea, though. That will speed the tech pace, though... Do the Zulu's have education? If they do, all this is worthless, their ToA will already be expired before we can give it to them.

I don't think Zulu's culture is an issue anymore. On the other hand Aztecs culcure is rising.

Education would give us Universities which we want to build next. And one more step to Copernicus and Bach's.

Good point... I am up, right? I may need the whole 48h because I am up in 2 other SG's also tomorrow...


Edit: nevermind, mixed up on the rosters of other SG's...:blush:

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
SesnOfWthr
Ankka (currently playing)
Karasu (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

I am up? My memory seems like it's having flaws. Playing today or tomorrow.

Playing now.

550AD [Preturn]: Check to see how we are doing. Looks fine..

IBT: AcityI can'tremember builds temple > library.

560AD [1]: Wonder where the settler in the North is ging, decide to settle becide the lake.

Now as we got some more gold, I push science up to 70% to get PP in 10, we are running decifit of some golds per turn, though.

IBT: Ashur settler > settler.

570AD [2]: The new settler shall build a town on the one-tile island.

IBT: Nineveh pike > pike.

580AD [3]: :sleep:

IBT: Eulbar cath > colosseum.
Cultural influence expands in many cities, we get a palace expansion.

590AD [4]: Build Nina > temple.

IBT: Mari harbor > worker.
We lose our curragh. Oops.

600AD [5]: Settler is now loaded and heading for the island.

I'm sorry but I have lots to do, going to Lapland for some hiking next week, so I have no time to do more than five turns. :( I apologise.

I push science up to 70% to get PP in 10,
Why? I thought I already mentioned speeding up the tech pace does us NO good. We have all the cultural buildings with education. One of the ways we can lose is space launch. Our number one goal is to slow the tech pace except if we trying to time a wonder tech (music theory).

==============================

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
SesnOfWthr
Ankka
Karasu (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

Got it. Will play either this evening or tomorrow night.

Why? I thought I already mentioned speeding up the tech pace does us NO good. We have all the cultural buildings with education. One of the ways we can lose is space launch. Our number one goal is to slow the tech pace except if we trying to time a wonder tech (music theory).

Microbe suggested that [:blush:] - to get smething to trade Education for, But I guess it was a bad move. :undecide:

Oops. I just noticed I settled the city I settled in the NE one tile SE from the dot. :blush:

Microbe suggested that [:blush:] - to get smething to trade Education for, But I guess it was a bad move. :undecide:

It would be a bad move if AI gets it first.

I would like to get Education faster by trading PP. How many AIs have got Education now? PP is a cheap and optional tech so it wouldn't speed up the tech pace much, while we could start building universities and be closer to several important wonder techs.

Glad someone likes the way I play. ;)


No offence taken, though, from anyone.

Glad someone likes the way I play. ;)


Don't worry. Different opinions certainly happen during an SG, so there are not always "good" or "bad" moves. We must have concensus on the mid or long term strategies, which normally leads to the same short-term tactics, but not always. Different moves can achieve the same goal.

But "undecided" is not good. ;) Whichever way you choose to play, you should understand the reason why others suggested it, or have your own reason of doing it differently.

I have that problem... don't know the game well enough to really know what's the best in long-term strategy; I rely quite much on good fellow gamers and try to learn as much as possible.

I think we each see different goals. My issue is that beyond universities we gain very little from new tech. My goal is to keep the tech pace as slow as possible. The reason is to lessen the risk of a space launch having to be dealt with. Cash to rush another temple is much more valuable to us then being first in tech. We have a good culture start, but we need to keep the culture growing big time.

My target is to buy at 5th, or 2 for 1 deal near the bottom of the trading order. We do want techs that are normally ignored such as Free Artistry. I really don't want any AI building an 8 CPT wonder.

My target is to buy at 5th, or 2 for 1 deal near the bottom of the trading order.

That would probably be too long to wait. 750AD is approaching and we are out of culture buildings in our core cities. I'd rather be able to build universities asap.

I don't think it's a difference in goals. I do agree with slow tech pace in general, but it doesn't mean we do no research at all times or not want to get techs faster.

I do agree that slowing down the tech pace *is* a priority for us; in this case, however, I would favour getting Education sooner rather than later.

In general, I think a possible approach is to have prebuild(s) ready for the time a wonder-enabling tech is discovered, and try to duplicate (slowly) the AIs' research choices. We would need to be always alert to get most of our techs from trade.

Btw, I didn't manage to get my turns done yesterday evening. It will be tonight, promised! :)

Here I come. Sorry for the absence of any screenshot, but when I post from home I still have to hang on a horrible 33.6 modem connection...

Pre-turn
Not much to do. Press Enter...
...and Uruk completes Sistine Chapel. Start Aqueduct.

Turn 2 - 620 AD
Found Ebla. Temple.
Our culture points: 5437

Turn 3 - 630 AD
Our culture points: 5573
Culture per turn (this turn): 136

Turn 4 - 640 AD
Babylon has completed Colosseum. Start Sun Tzu as a prebuild (Bach, Copernicus, you never know...)

Turn 5 - 650 AD
The Aztecs have started Copernicus. Printing Press is due next turn.

Turn 6 - 660 AD
Trade Printing Press to Vikings for Education, 122 gold and 1 gpt
Vikings, Aztecs, Mongols are up Astronomy but it appears not to be available through trade. So:
Trade PP to Mongols for 90 gold and 16 gpt
Trade PP to Aztecs for 25 gold and 17 gpt
Trade PP and Edu to Zulus for Gunpowder and 7 gold (apparently they cannot afford gpt payments).

Astronomy is already around, so I set research to Music Theory. Due in 10 turns at 70% science, +26 gpt

Since most of them have Astronomy, and the Vikings have already contacts with everyone, I decide to sell contacts too, totaling 3 gp + 12 gpt

BTW, we have no saltpeter -the Zulus have one to trade, but I see no point in getting it right now: our military is average compared to the Zulus, and we can always upgrade our pikes later on (we may really need saltpeter when it comes to building Cavalries, but then we'll need horses too...).

I spend a lot of money rushing culture improvements wherever it is affordable.

Turn 7 - 670 AD
Found Izibia. Temple.

Turn 9 - 690 AD
We are sneak attacked by the Vikings, who capture Umtata with a Berserker and burn it to the ground.
There is not much we can do, other than watch our coastal cities and wait for them to talk peace.

Culture: 6450

Turn 10 - 700 AD
The Vikings complete Sun Tzu. Everybody cascades to Leonardo and Copernicus, but none is completed this turn. I switch Samarra to Palace and Babylon to Leonardo. Hopefully, the AI won't complete another wonder in the next 5-6 turns.

Ashur builds settler. There is some room between Umfolozi and Zariqum, or in the jungle. Undecided, I leave him there for the moment.

Culture: 6603

Notes
Zariqum and Larsa will need an Aqueduct next.

We are making 153 culture points per turn, increasing at a rate of about 2 cpt per turn (roughly measured between 620 and 700 AD).
It's hard to make predictions this late at night, but I would not be overly optimistic if I tried to make one...

THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-700AD.zip)

We are sneak attacked by the Vikings,
OUCH. Time to go overboard with city defense along the coast.

=====================================

BTW, we have no saltpeter
This is defintely a resource screw-over game.

=====================================

LKendter (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
SesnOfWthr
Ankka
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

700 AD
I ship the Zulu 3 luxuries and $25/turn and get Astronomy. Babylon can finish Copernicus a far away 22 turns. Our capitol should not be used for wonder building since we can't fall back to a palace. However, I feel trapped at this point to not waste it shields. I am forced to continue the research on Music theory.

We are still sorely lacking workers as Babylon and Samarra will work undeveloped tiles with growth.

Our culture is good, but we have focused too much on it. Our military just plain sucks. We still have coastal cities defending by warriors!
(IT) GACK - The Aztec's complete Copernicus. I just wasted my time to get Astronomy.


730 AD
(IT) DOUBLE GACK - The Zulu complete Leo's.
The good piece of news is the cascade is broken.


740 AD
Babylon switches to University. I am surprised that we only waste 44 shields and this turns production.

Our elite bowman attacks and archer, but we don't get a leader.


760 AD
We clear out the first Viking stack by Nippur losing one AC. However, then are 4 more units behind that stack. We gain another elite unit, but I still don't have that leader.


770 AD
The Vikings will take straight peace, so this is my last chance for a leader. I promote another AC to elite, but no leader.

We ship the Vikings $38/turn for Banking and piece. That is a $9/turn discount versus the other civs.

I could get Chemistry, but I prefer to save our gpt for economics. Chemistry gains us nothing, while Smith's is culture AND economic help.


780 AD
I take pity on the backwards Romans, and ship them Theology for a worker.


800 AD
New Babylon is formed. This is our last obvious settler spot.

Rome is a non-player in this game. I ship him Gunpowder for another worker and $1.

The Aztecs get furs for $11/turn.

Summary:
Our current total is 8,280 vs. the Zulu 3,518. We have an absurd lead at this time. However, our CPT is around 167. At this pace we will win on turn 624. Since the game ends on turn 540 it should be clear that we still need a massive amount of culture to win. The good news is the culture is still coming along. We have a library in 1, library in 2 and church in 2.

We now can build banks. Our economy will be happy to see those built.

Bach's is pretty much locked. :D
Samarra has 399 shields of the needed 600 built up. After music theory completes in 4 turns I would switch Nineveh to a palace pre-build. I want Smith's to also be ours.

Economic research should be SLOW. We need plenty of time to build up enough shields. We can always speed up at the end if needed.

This area should get 100% irrigation. It will stay corrupt and get very little in the way of shields. On the other hand a pile of scientist / taxman from excess food would give us a pick boost.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LAK-416.jpg


Keep Ashur in pure worker mode. We still have way too much land to develop, and a ton of jungle to clear.

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
SesnOfWthr (on deck)
Ankka
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-800AD.zip

preturn: sell ivory to Vikings for 10gpt. Zariqum is about to riot and I hire a scientist, Music Theory can be completed one turn earier. :D

IBT Aztecs demand 22g, I cave.

(1)810AD: nothing worth noting. Just noticed we again irrigated a tile we cannot use. Maybe we can put a city there.

IBT palace expansion.

(2)820AD: ZZZ

(3)830AD: Music Theory in. JS Bach in 14 turns. I start min research on Economics and sell MT around:

Zulu: Chemistry+36g+5gpt
Mongols: 23gpt
Vikings: 12gpt+143g
Aztecs: 17gpt+15g

All full price.

We are making 125gpt now. All the 4 have Metallury, but I don't buy it yet.

I rush library in Adab by 52g, and university in Carchemish by 144g, university in Ninevsh by 140g. I'll start Palace prebuild next turn. We'll need 55 turns at current rate (11spt).

I switch Babylon to bank due in 11.

One thing is that Aztec's culture is rising..it has many big cities and will be a problem in the future.

(4)840AD: our culture is 9056.

Rush a temple and a library.

(5)850AD: Our culture is 9266. That's 210cpt. That's 337 turns away, barely finish it before 540AD. Things will speed even up when we get double culture bonus in more towns, of course.

IBT another palace expansion.

(6)860AD: I buy a Zulu worker for 116g.

(7)870AD: some big payment expired, we are making +76gpt now.

Zulu has saltpeter for sale. Our lux deal will expire in 3 turns so we'll exchange at that time. I hope other AIs won't get it instead.

(8)880AD: All AI know Democracy. Maybe we should revolt to it at some point.

(9)890AD: Vikings also have horses for sale.

(10)900AD: We can get Saltpeter from Zulu by 2 lux + 25gpt. Should we do that? Upgrading one pike to musketman would cost 90g. Quite expensive with the same defense value. Horses from Vikings are even more expensive.

On the other hand, Zulu may just demand the 2 luxes from us, so we really should just trade them away.

We can found a city 3 tiles SE to Larsa. Should we do it?

Also, I think we should revolt to Republic.

Currently our total internal revenue (from cities) is 243, with 75g corrupted (about 30%). Net income is 243-75 = 168g.

I go over all tiles and the distribution is something like this:
tiles with 1g: 97
tiles with 2g: 42
tiles with 3g: 4
tiles with 4g: 4

With Republic we'll have 97+42+4+4=147g more. With market/bank the difference will be even bigger. So the total internal revenue would be more than 390g. Let's say corruption rate is the same, we'll get net income at least 273g. That's almost 100g more.

We have 79 units. Under Monarchy we are paying 11g. We have 28 cities, 5 of them above size-6. So we could support 23+15 = 38 units. We'll have to pay for the rest 41 units and that would be 82g. So we'll get about 20g more. Our military is about the same size as Zulu's (and consider our relatively low quality units!), so I don't think we need much more units.

Note, the above calculation is rather conservative: (1) we are not considering the effect of market/bank. (2) we are not considering the lower corruption in Republic. With those in mind I expect our gain would be even higher (at least 50gpt more - that would be more than 50% of our current net income).

We have 7 turns left for JS Bach's. The question is whether to revolt now or wait until it's completed to shorten the window of somebody researching Economics. I would take the risk as Economics is really low priority for the AI, and revolting would add just 2 turns.

All things considered, I suggest we make the saltpeter deal and revolt immediately to Republic.

EDIT: Regarding the irrigation line Lee suggested, I've chopped the jungle next to the water to be able to introduce it to the inland.

I've got it, but no turns before Thurs night. Would like some input on Microbe's suggestion anyhow.

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
SesnOfWthr (currently playing)
Ankka (on deck)
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited form signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

=============================


Comments to follow later - quite a bit to write up!

All the 4 have Metallurgy, but I don't buy it yet.

Metallurgy kills Zeus and gives no wonders. This should be at the bottom of our priority list of techs to get.

==============================

...university in Nineveh by 140g. I'll start Palace pre-build next turn. We'll need 55 turns at current rate (11spt).
I guess I should have been clearer. I wanted to switch from University to palace. The AI will research economics in less then 55 turns. Can we squeeze any more shields from Nineveh?

==============================

Upgrading one pike to musketman would cost 90g. Quite expensive with the same defense value.
:confused: A pike is 1-3-1, while a musket if 2-4-1. We would want to upgrade to rifles at some point. Your weak rating is a comparison of total offense and defense factors. Each upgrade two more combat factors.

==============================

(2) we are not considering the lower corruption in Republic.
There is NO lower corruption with Republic. The editor makes it look that way, but some of the killer players proved there is no difference.

==============================

We can found a city 3 tiles SE to Larsa. Should we do it?
Without seeing a map, I can't comment. I don't want any more cities near our core.

==============================

Our military is about the same size as Zulu's (and consider our relatively low quality units!), so I don't think we need much more units.
I still want a lot more units. If nothing else, I would like to disband the regular warriors and replace with MDI or pikes. At this point we really don't need warriors.

==============================

(8)880AD: All AI know Democracy. Maybe we should revolt to it at some point.

Also, I think we should revolt to Republic.

We have 7 turns left for JS Bach's. The question is whether to revolt now or wait until it's completed to shorten the window of somebody researching Economics.

All things considered, I suggest we make the saltpeter deal and revolt immediately to Republic.



I see the following from the above:
1) Complete Bach's before revolt.
2) Revolt to Democracy. If we are going to revolt, then I want the faster workers to get through all the jungle that I am praying has some coal. I don't want to go to Republic, then Democracy.
3) Getting saltpeter and revolting means that we waste 2 turns of the deal, as nothing is in progress. How much more are the horses? What we really need are more fast units. If I had a choice between knights and muskets, I would want knights.

So just to make sure I'm clear, my goals are:

1. Try to squeeze more from Nineveh, if possible.
2. Disband some warriors and replace with pikes/MDI's.
3. Complete Bach's in seven.
4. After Bach's revolt to Democracy (Do we know it? I don't see it noted....)
5. Trade for horses if price is comparable/affordable compared to salt.

Am I missing anything?

After Bach's revolt to Democracy (Do we know it? I don't see it noted....)

We don't know it yet. Maybe we can use our two luxuries to get a discount from the Zulu for Democracy.

There is NO lower corruption with Republic. The editor makes it look that way, but some of the killer players proved there is no difference.

As I read Alexman's formulae in
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=76619&page=1&pp=20
it appears to me that there most definitely IS a corruption benefit to Republic over Monarchy. It appears in the Nopt formula, the Gr part, where Republic gives a 10% boost (modified by difficulty level) to OCN.

Now, whether it's worth revolting for this or waiting for democracy or whatever is up to you guys to decide.... Come fully armed with all the facts, though.

Arathorn

As I read Alexman's formulae in
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=76619&page=1&pp=20
it appears to me that there most definitely IS a corruption benefit to Republic over Monarchy. It appears in the Nopt formula, the Gr part, where Republic gives a 10% boost (modified by difficulty level) to OCN.

Now, whether it's worth revolting for this or waiting for democracy or whatever is up to you guys to decide.... Come fully armed with all the facts, though.

Arathorn


:hmm: I wonder when that changed?
It was one of those type of write ups that I remember no difference from. Did I forget, or did C3C change it?

There was also a difference in PTW, I'm pretty sure. In alexman's very original study and write-up, he didn't notice it. It's a pretty subtle one and I don't recall if the details changed from PTW to C3C or not. It was fixed partway through his first thread. Some people noted some discrepancies and eventually they figured out what was causing it. Amazing piece of work, overall.

Also, there is no difference in distance corruption between Monarchy and Republic. Maybe that's what you're thinking?

Arathorn

:confused: A pike is 1-3-1, while a musket if 2-4-1.

I don't know why I always remember pike is 1-4-1 in C3C? Probably I need new glasses..gotta check again next time I open C3C..

I still want a lot more units. If nothing else, I would like to disband the regular warriors and replace with MDI or pikes. At this point we really don't need warriors.

Sure, but it won't add unit support.

Revolt to Democracy. If we are going to revolt, then I want the faster workers to get through all the jungle that I am praying has some coal. I don't want to go to Republic, then Democracy.

I agree Democracy is better, but it will be very expensive to buy (we cannot afford it now even after almost everybody has it). We either research it ourselves or get a monopoly tech and trade for it. That will be a long way to go. Since we are religious, I don't see why we cannot go to Republic first. The added income will help us greatly. For such a big country as we are, our economy sucks. I've never had such low income at this stage of the game.

If you are so strong against Republic, then I strongly suggest we abandon min research on Economics, and do max research on Democracy IMMEDIATELY.


3) Getting saltpeter and revolting means that we waste 2 turns of the deal, as nothing is in progress. How much more are the horses? What we really need are more fast units. If I had a choice between knights and muskets, I would want knights.

Horses need 50gpt or so.

So just to make sure I'm clear, my goals are:

1. Try to squeeze more from Nineveh, if possible.
2. Disband some warriors and replace with pikes/MDI's.
3. Complete Bach's in seven.
4. After Bach's revolt to Democracy (Do we know it? I don't see it noted....)
5. Trade for horses if price is comparable/affordable compared to salt.

Am I missing anything?

If you want to revolt to democracy, start researching it right now, immediately. Abandon the several turns in min research on Economics.

I would think you would want Democracy ASAP so you can get shakespeares. Not only do you get the culture, but a size 20 city can build wonders much faster than size 12.

I would consider buying Democracy when you can get it at last or near last prices. I would not choose Min resarch (maybe max but definitely not min).

I've never had such low income at this stage of the game.
It is a combination of tons of culture in junk cities that normally wouldn't build it, and we are still doing a lousy job getting our cities to size 12. I don't know why we still have almost no irrigated grasslands.

We can found a city 3 tiles SE to Larsa. Should we do it?
It may hurt Ashur as a worker factory, but I say yes. Worse case is we need to grow Ashur to size 6 to give a worker every other turn. Normally I wouldn't bother with this city, but with our 80K goal we can use the city. :goodjob: microbe.


=============

I got a chance to look at the game.

1) We can get Democracy NOW. Ivory, Dyes, and $59/turn to the Mongols.
2) We can put science to 10% to have economics available sooner if needed.
3) We can grow Nineveh ASAP - merge the next 3 workers from Ashur into the city. They work the plains, and 2 forest. We should net another 3 or 4 shields. :D
4) We need to get out of the 100% mines on grassland mode. Telloh needs at least two irrigated grassland to use a mountain.

I was trying to get water to Zariqum to let it grow faster to take advantage of the two hills. This was the "unused" irrigation that microbe found.

5) Keep Ashur in pure worker mode indefinitely. If nothing else we can merge the workers into our core cities to final get them to size 12. Our city growth sucks. We need size 12 cities now.

1) We can get Democracy NOW. Ivory, Dyes, and $59/turn to the Mongols.

Then buy it and revolt. :) Just remember to keep enough treasury to cover the 2-turn anarchy payment.

2) We can put science to 10% to have economics available sooner if needed.

Or shut it off until we are ready to grab it.


3) We can grow Nineveh ASAP - merge the next 3 workers from Ashur into the city. They work the plains, and 2 forest. We should net another 3 or 4 shields.

Agree. We probably should put more corrupted towns to worker?

Agree. We probably should put more corrupted towns to worker?
For a normal game I would say yes, but for this variant NO. We need to queue up the more expensive churches and schools in the cities.

My turns seem to be pretty much cut and dried now.

Trade for Demo as LK said. Leaves us 153g in the bank. I leave all the builds and revolt. MM what I can for growth.

910 ad (1) – Some worker movements, Nippur riots.

920 ad (2) – We’re now a democracy. Shows +93gpt.

930 ad (3) – Join two workers to Nineveh. Size 11, 16 spt with two corrupt.

940 ad (4) – Just watching the workers run around.

950 ad (5) – Rush a couple libraries.

960 ad (6) – Doing some quick math, Nineveh, now size 12 will take about 27 turns to finish Smith’s. We don’t get economics for 37. Bump up to 10% to get it in 32. Still not enough, but 20% gets it in 17 turns. Will have to play with this to make it come out right.

970 ad (7) – I don’t understand how you guys can tell what another civs total culture is. Is it just the main rival form the victory status screen? :hmm:

980 ad (8) – Ragnar wants to renew peace, and I tell him to shove it. :joke:

990 ad (9) – We complete Bach’s in Samarra. Everyone cascades to Magellans.

1000 ad (10) – A bunch of builds complete.

Recap – The Smith’s build and Economics should finish pretty close to each other, I believe it will be LK who gets to do the final finagling.

We gained 2,123 culture this set, including 230 on my last turn. Our total is 12,474 while Aztecs are at 5,054 total. At 230 cpt, we will finish on turn 509, or year 2019. I was able to rush a uni/church every two turns.

Just realized that I forgot about “irrigation line” with all the discussion. I mined a couple tiles that should have been irrigated. :blush:


>>>SAVE<<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-1000AD.zip)

Good job!

We'll finish far earlier than 2019. Maybe some early 19xx?

Yes we do use the victory screen to tell the next foe's culture.

We complete Bach’s in Samarra.
Bach's and Sistines - my favorite happy people combo. :D


We'll finish far earlier than 2019. Maybe some early 19xx?
Now that is the type of news I like to hear. We now hit 80K before the game end. [dance]

The next step is to get that a lot ealier. Need to keep most of the remaining wonders for us.
===============================================

Keep Ashur in pure worker mode. We still have way too much land to develop, and a ton of jungle to clear.

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
SesnOfWthr
Ankka (currently playing)
Karasu (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

Of course I expect to get it much earlier than 2019, was just illustrating the margin for error we now have to work with.

EDIT: Incorrect observation deleted. :)

I said I am away. Good thing I got in to say it again. :p

That makes Karasu up..

Now that is the type of news I like to hear. We now hit 80K before the game end.

Note that was just my estimate. :) With double-culture kicks in we'll certainly shorten the time to 2019.

LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
SesnOfWthr
Ankka (out Jun 17 to Jun 27)
Karasu (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we may only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited form signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

Got it.
Most likely, I won't be able to access the web until Monday morning (CET). So don't worry if you don't hear from me... :)

Sorry -double post.

Pre-turn
Sell Chemistry to Caesar for all his gold: 38 gp + 7 gpt (little money, but better in our pockets than in another AI's).
Aztecs and Mongols are up Navigation, Physics and Metallurgy.
Vikings and Zulus are up Navigation and Metallurgy.
:ack: Our military advisor says that the Aztec army has Cavalry units.

Engage in some map trading with the known civs.
Press Enter

The Vikings discover Free Artistry and start Shakespeare.

Turn 1 - 1010 AD
The AIs are no more than two techs from the Industrial Age, and we are starting to fall behind badly; no matter how many Medieval Infantry and Pikemen we build, it will be game over as soon as they begin arriving with Cavalries and Riflemen.

There is another reason why we need to catch up in tech: if we cannot start wars between AIs, they will keep on researching and trading techs the way they have been doing, and we won't have a chance to slow down the tech pace.
The best way to do that that I can think of right now, is to stay one-two techs ahead of them and keep them broke by judicious selling of those techs.

Our only chance to catch up now is to take advantage of the passing of age and of our scientific trait. So, I set research on Economics to the maximum sustainable level (that is, deficit research without going negative with the treasury).

Move some units around.

Turn 2 - 1020 AD
I think we can still squeeze at least three more cities in the jungle area and in the forsaken lands between Larsa and Ashur. Three cities will mean at least 45 culture points per turn after rushing some buildings... So I set Ashur back to Settler.

Turn 3 - 1030 AD
Rush Cathedral in Eridu

Turn 4 - 1040 AD
Rush University in Samarra

Turn 5 - 1050 AD
Larsa: Aqueduct - Marketplace (can also be switched to University)

Turn 6 - 1060 AD
Mongols have completed Magellan

Turn 7 - 1070 AD
Mongols reached the Industrial Age.
Aztecs started Smith!

Let's hope it isn't too late. We simply haven't got enough gpt to afford buying all those techs.
Incidentally, wasn't it unlucky that the Vikings researched Free Artistry, the Mongols ToG and the Aztecs Economics in parallel...

Luckily, the Aztecs haven't sold Economics to anyone.
Start some trading:

Sell Democracy to Rome for 26 gp + 3 gpt (all they have)
Sell Economics to Vikings for Free Artistry and 22 gp
Sell Economics + Free Artistry + 122 gp + 45 gpt to Zulus for Physics and Metallurgy
Sell Economics + 41 gpt to Mongols for Magnetism
Sell Magnetism to Zulus for 30 gpt + 39 gp

There is no way to buy Theory of Gravity at monopoly price from Temujin. Luckily, a havy gpt deal we have with them is expiring in three turns, which will allow us either to speed up our own research on ToG, or to buy it directly.
I set research at zero for these turns.

Yuk. In all this mess I hadn't noticed that we got a Scientific Leader! The first one I ever see :yeah:
I switch the prebuild in Nineveh to Shakespeare, due in nine turns.
I leave the leader alone, for the moment.

Rush university in Telloh.

Turn 8 - 1080 AD
Vikings reach IA too. This may actually help us, lowering the cost of ToG.

Found New Nineveh - Temple

Turn 9 - 1090 AD
Rush University in Akkad

Our culture is 14794


Turn 10 - 1100 AD
The gpt deal we had been paying to Mongols expires.

So ends our trading round started in 1070 AD (I know, it's my last turn, but I had been waiting so eagerly for this... :D ):

We can now buy Theory of Gravity for merely Ivory, Dyes, WM, 66 gp and 51 gpt.
We get Nationalism as our free tech.
Sell Nationalism to Mongols for Military Tradition, Navigation, WM, 86 gp, 154 gpt (all they have)
Sell Nationalism to Vikings for Horses :yeah: WM, 78 gp, 101 gpt

There is another deal we may make with Zulus: they have Saltpeter to sell, and we could buy it for ToG and money, or that + money for ToG + Nationalism.
I don't know about this one -we may want to build a few horses and then upgrade, or buy Saltpeter and go straight for Cavalries. Team's call.

We are now on tech par with everyone, and making 300+ gpt at zero science.
And everyone else is broke (except the Zulus, that are making around 30ish gpt).

Our culture: 15067 (273 cpt from last turn)

Two settlers are being produced, and I had these locations in mind for them, but that's of course subject to collective agreement.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-1100AD.jpg

Notes
- I set research to Medicine, but as we started this turn we can change to Steam Power freely. I also left the slider at 0% science -we may want to raise it to reach Scientific Method first.
- I haven't made any deal with the Zulus, but we may want to get that saltpeter.
- I haven't done anything with the leader. There are three wonders available at the moment -Shakespeare, Adam Smith and Newton. We can probably build Shakespeare first (it is only six turns away), and then choose one of the remaining two. The third one will be lost in the cascade.
I didn't rush anything with the leader just because of the cascade risk -my idea was to wait for Shakespeare to be ready and use the leader on the same turn.
- For our military, I would mainly build Trebuchets/cannons and horses/cavalries. If we upgrade our Pikemen, we probably won't need to build more defensive units. In this sense, the build orders in some of our cities will have to be reviewed: I have left some Aqueducts and Marketplaces around that may be changed, and in the confusion of all this trading I have probably overlooked some builds.

-- Here is the save -- (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-1100AD.zip)

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
SesnOfWthr
Ankka (out June 17th to June 27th)
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

Very very nice job Karasu!

We are 15067cp with 273cpt. That means culture win within 238 turns. We are at turn 226. So that makes turn 464, which is 1974. With double culture bonus kicking in it will be much closer.

1100 AD (pre-turn)
Karasu did the right move to take advantage of the science slingshot. After a long debate I decide on Steam at maximum. Rails will insure that we can't lose much in the next war. I don't want to keep science full to long. We can only suck a large block of GPT from the AI civs every 20 turns. They will be stopped for a while, as they go for the expensive government techs.

I ship ToG to the Zulu for a joke, so that I can use Nationalism to get Saltpeter.


1110 AD
I use the SGL to rush Smith's. Of the 3 wonders available I want that the most for the economic help.


1140 AD
Another aggressive city is built by the Zulu - New Ashur.


1160 AD
(IT) We build the ultimate culture wonder - Shakespeare.
The cascade results in the Vikings completing Newton's. We really cut it close!


1170 AD
:wallbash: All that frelling jungle and we have NO coal source :wallbash:
What is it with the LK series recently, and getting crappy resource distribution?
I can find 5 sources on the map, one for every civ except us. Unless a civ takes out Rome we will never have coal!

I take Ashur off of worker duty. Without coal, our workers will run out of useful tasks soon enough.

(IT) We have another war with the Vikings. We lose our source of Horses. Elba AND Mari falls to Berserkers.

1180 AD
This is really going to get ugly. I can't buy horses anywhere else. The Vikings already have a nasty looking amount of units heading our way, and


1190 AD
We have a stack of 8 Berserks, 1 knight and 3 pikes by New Babylon. We knock the stack down to 4 Berserks and retreat the knight. However, we lost 3 irreplaceable AC, and 1 MDI.

Summary:
We survived the worst turn. The trouble is we have too few cavalry. I stopped research to let 100% of our cash be used for rushing. I have barracks in the two border towns. I have started upgrading pikes to rifles. We need to improve our military rating or the wars won't stop.

We are up to 17,925 culture making 285/turn despite the 2 city loss. We need another long 218 turns excluding city doubling. The trouble is we are running out of culture to build, and we haven't gotten a single flip so far.


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
SesnOfWthr (on deck)
Ankka (out June 17th to June 27th)
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-1200AD.zip

(IT) We have another war with the Vikings. We lose our source of Horses. Elba AND Mari falls to Berserkers.

Was it a sneak attack or a refused tribute demand?

Bad luck on coals, but it may appear any time in the future. So we are not dead yet!

Will try to play tonight.

Was it a sneak attack or a refused tribute demand?
Sneak attack - based on the troop time I think the attack was decided when we got rails first.

==========================

Bad luck on coals, but it may appear any time in the future.
Don't hold you breath waiting on that. I can't remember the last time I saw a resource depletion. It seems to have gone away somewhere along the line.

preturn: fix riot in Akkad.

(1)1210AD: Elite AC kills a zerk, upgrade pike to rifle in New Babylon.

(2)1220AD: Enter Roman territory and kill 4 zerks and one knight.

(3)1230AD: Lose one cav we take back Mari. No way to capture Ebla except hoping for a flip. Mongols has got Facism but wouldn't trade with Steam.

IBT Aztecs declares on Mongols - this is very good news, AI finally starts fighting each other!

(4)1240AD: I rush library in Mari. Upgrade 4 pikes. Rush library in New Nineveh.

Oops, we have exactly zero gold. :lol:

(5)1250AD: Aztecs/Mongols/Zulu have Steam Power and Facism now.

IBT Two zerks attack Mari. One fails and the other kills our rifle.

(6)1255AD: I rush a wall in Mari. Unload another rifle into it.

IBT zerk loses to our rifle in Mari, and..

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-1255AD.jpg

(7)1260AD: Sign peace with Vikings and get 6g+WM. Vikings has Communism + Facism.

I rush bank in Nineveh. I'll start a prebuild next turn.

(8)1265AD: Rush two temples and a library.

We can buy horses from Mongols, but that would be very expensive. I decide not to do it. We'll just build rifles.

I don't know why we still keep lux at 10%. Drop to 0. I suspect I should have done so at the beginning of my turns..

(9)1270AD: Keep rushing..our culture is 20628. But Mongols is 10295! It's catching up!

(10)1275AD: Our culture is 20960, Mongols is still 10295? Hmm, it's in anarchy, probably revolting to Facism now. We are 332cpt. That's culture win in 1916.

We can buy two workers from Zulu by some lux. I'll leave to next player.

Note: The culture of both Mongols/Aztecs is rising (but seems to decline recently) in the culture histograph. We need to keep rushing culture. We should be OK as we have double the number of cities.

Note rushing order should be library, temple, university and cathedral.

There is a settler going south to settle on the following spot.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-1275AD.jpg

SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-1275AD.zip)

Yay! A culture flip.

I could have sworn I started the settler for that spot during my last turns. :hmm:

This is my got it, but there won't be any turns till late Tuesday.

:ack: No coal, ho horses, no saltpeter... we surely are not swimming in resources...

Too bad the Vikings declared again -they probably had to pay some more gpt and declared to break the trade agreement with us. The risk is going to be there any time we sell them a tech for all their gold.
Well done surviving their attack! :thumbsup:
That's clearly another good reason to improve our military rating at all costs now...

Have we got a prebuild for Theory of Evolution somewhere?

Have we got a prebuild for Theory of Evolution somewhere?
Actually right now the prebuild will be for Suffrage. Even a few more cpt will help.

After are 2 wars we still have no army and the right to build hero epic. :(

=================================

We'll just build rifles.
Actually, I would push cannons until the Zulu saltpeter is gone. We may as well get a few bombard units onto the map. As long as we start the cannon before we lose the saltpeter it will finish. Since we don't need barracks for cannons, we can build them anywhere.

=================================

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
SesnOfWthr (currently playing)
Ankka (out June 17th to June 27th)
Karasu (on deck)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

I would push cannons until the Zulu saltpeter is gone

Good point. I hadn't thought of that and the deal has just expired. :( Even with the luxes we still need to pay ~70gpt for that.

So, if the deal is expired, should I try to renew it, or should I build some trebs for later upgrade?

Hard call. I would probably try to get Horses right now, get Salt later on and do some serious upgrading -but it's debatable...

We actually can get horses from mongols by ivory+dyes+19gpt. I think we can build some horses, then upgrade later when we get saltpeter from Zulu (prob in 20 turns)?

We actually can get horses from mondols by ivory+dyes+19gpt. I think we can build some horses, then upgrade later when we get saltpeter from Zulu (prob in 20 turns)?


Horses would let us build knights (horses + iron).
To upgrade to Cavalry we would need (horses + salt).

We would have to have both resources being imported in order to get more cavalry.

Even knights wouldn't hurt - knights can kill the next stack of Viking Bezerks...

Well, as I said, I can't play till much later, so let's debate. ;)

I would probably go for the horses, all things being equal.

EDIT: I'm an idiot. :rolleyes: (I was arguing for the horses, using cavs. As LK so adequately pointed out, we need salt for cavs as well.) Although we could trade for horses now, build a bunch of knights and upgrade those at a later date with a salt trade.

Alternatively, we could trade for neither and just save our money and rush a bunch of rifles and trebs.

:confused: I was just going to quote the post saying that cavalry aren't much use to attack cities with, but it went away...

I have shreded many cities defending with Infantry thanks to artillery SOD and cavalry.

A couple of turns ago Mongols has 202cpt. This is more than half of ours. we have 332cpt at the end of my turns.

Mongols has only 14 cities, while we have 30 cities. Surprisingly we clearly are doing worse than the AI! I can't undersrand why it has so much culture.

This is not good. We need to rush more culture (not units) and squeeze more cities. Aside from the spot I suggested, Karasu also suggested one (check his post). We need 404cpt which is still a long way to go.

We need to rush more culture (not units) and squeeze more cities. Aside from the spot I suggested, Karasu also suggested one (check his post). We need 404cpt which is still a long way to go.


We need to be careful where we squeeze cities. I did place another along the Zulu border during my turns. However, we need to be very careful with more cities near our core. I don't want to bump good cities down the list and destroy our productivity. I will take a look tonight and propose another dot map.

Building Knights and later upgrading seems a good choice. We will need to balance the money spent on upgrades with that spent on rushing culture buildings.

Talking about which... Mongols' culture is really surprising.
With 30 cities, with Temple + Library + Cathedral + University in each we should have 12 cpt per city => 360 cpt total, not counting the 1000-year doubling. So, something around 500-600 cpt by 1700 seems reasonable.
We are not likely to get a lot more than that: the problems will start coming when we run out of buildings to rush, which doesn't seem too far away...

EDIT: I agree that we should not squeeze cities around our core -and we haven't got many sensible places at this point. I'd go for as tight a placement as possible north-ish of Ashur.
We should also be wary not to settle too aggressively near the Zulu border, as that will make them declare war on us sooner or later.

It seems most of the rest of the game will be finding a delicate balance between two needs:

The need to get more culture and reach 80k
The need to have enough troops to dissuade declarations of war

Should be interesting trying to find the right balance.

EDIT: A question regarding Arathorn's post - it seems he is implying that we need access to both resources to upg from knights to cavs. But shouldn't we just need the salt since that is the only difference in resources between the two? I don't know why I bother to ask, Arathorn always seems to know what he's talking about....

[/lurk]

Suggestion for the buys. Buy horses for 20 turns and build knights (where you don't have more culture to build). About 18 turns into the deal (with about 2 turns left), buy saltpeter and upgrade in that brief window when you have both horses and cavalry. You can then use the salt and your native iron to build cannons, which are also incredibly useful.

Good luck with the rest of this one.

[lurk]

Arathorn

For discussion.

Aside from the spot in my turnlog, here are some spots we can fill in:

Red dots are highest priority. The settler can go to one of them now.

Yellow next, then blue? These will affect productivity in Ellipi, so we can delay a bit.

Again rushing order in new cities: library, temple, university, cathedral.

Every new city with the 4 improvements will get us 12cpt. 5 more cities would be 60cpt. With our existing cities finishing their remaining culture, we'll be close to 400cpt.

After all core cities completing culture, we can consider squeezing more (like in the east?)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-1275-dotmap2.jpg

With 30 cities, with Temple + Library + Cathedral + University in each we should have 12 cpt per city => 360 cpt total, not counting the 1000-year doubling

Yeah, we haven't completed all our culture buildings. All cities have temples and libraries, but some don't have universities and cathedrals, which are more expensive to rush. Most of these cities are just corrupted. Some forests could be chopped to help them. Also probably we shouldn't be building aqueducts there..

A few more game thoughts:
1) Get 2 rifles into Mari and Ebla. Build walls in Ebla. These are the worst cities to deal with the Vikings taking them.

2) We want two rifles per coastal city to discourage the next round from the Vikings. Rifles defenders shouldn't be used for the interior until are coast is safe. We can't afford to lose temples / libraries that are doubled. As an example - Shuruppak with a doubled temple and is defended by only a bowman!

3) I realize everyone is worried about more culture, but we must increase our cities building military. I would be shocked if we don't have a third Viking, or second Zulu war. We have multiple cities we NO defenders. Although it hasn't been proven scientifically, I feel that like empty cities encourage demands / wars.

4) I loaded the game and clicked to the next turn. We are gaining 339 culture / turn, and the Mongols are at 204 culture / turn. I agree we have a problem, and that is why I reluctantly added another 3 cities to build. A key thing with culture is we simply can't let the AI get any more wonders. While we desperately need more military, most of our cash will have to stay on buildings as opposed to badly needed pike to rifleman upgrades.

5) Micro suggested a rush order of temple, library, university and church. I want to add an exception. If the city is close to riot, then the order should be church, university. I would rush by the Zulu border above all. The odds look low, but

6) If we get too much military, we can always disband the junk units - bowman, regular pikes, etc for shields toward culture in the fringe towns.

7) I would pass on the Zulu workers for 2 luxuries. We give the Zulu to much for what we get back.

8) Our eastern area:
The red circles are CORE cities. The yellow dot is the only spot I can find that won't harm our core.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LAK-418.jpg

9) Our northern area:
The red circles are CORE cities. The blue and green dots are the last spots worth it. Add the grey X zone to the city list will leave core cities with less then 12 tiles to work.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LAK-419.jpg


10) This has already become more of an ICS game then I wanted. I really want to draw the line at those 3 cities. It was never my intention to win by ICS. The Zulu getting the Temple of Artemis really hurt, as they are the only potential cities to flip. I doubt we will get a single flip this game from the Zulu cities.

Pre turn – Mongols culture: 10295 Ours: 20960. Barely double.

Cycle last couple inland troops to the coast.

1280 ad (1) – We’re not quite making enough money to rush a church every turn.

1285 ad (2) – I’m hedging on the horses deal until a couple core builds finish up.

1290 ad (3) – A Viking galleon sails by to the south.

1295 ad (4) – Mari and Ebla both get their second rifles. New Ellipi founded north of Zariqum.

1300 ad (5) – We get hit with what I believe is our first pollution.

1305 ad (6) – Culture gain last turn: Us – 362 cpt Mongols – 207

1310 ad (7) – Trade Mongols ivory, dyes, WM and 336g for horses. Mongols also pass 50% of our total culture.

1315 ad (8) – Not a whole lot.

1320 ad (9) – Yet a couple more rush builds.

1325 ad (10) – Vikings start US. Rush a final church up north.

I was able to rush 8-10 buildings all cultural with an aqueduct exception. Most of these nuilds were in the northern cities. I was also able to upgrade 4 or 5 pikes. Currently making 328 gpt.

Our culture numbers now:
Us – 24555 total, 380 cpt.
Mongols – 12356 total, 207 cpt. We are catching up to their cpt.


>>>SAVE<<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-1325AD.zip)

Nice job! We gained almost 50cpt in 10 turns.

Pollution? I guess that's from our shakespear city?

We can research Industrialization in 6 turns. We are able to build ToE in 24 turns with our prebuild. I suggest we research Medicine after that as AI is extremely slow at it, then we can trade it to AI to get Electricity (and hopefully also RP) then go for Sci Method.

Yeah, I guess I could have been more specific about the pollution. It was on an ivory outside Nineveh(?).

Perhaps more important than how many cpt we gained is the fact that the mongols only gained 3 cpt.

From what I understood, the prebuild was meant for the US?

From what I understood, the prebuild was meant for the US?

I don't think we can get both US and ToE, so IMO it should be a prebuild for ToE..

First let me state that I agree with you, as I generally don't care much about US, but always persue ToE fully.

LK implied he wanted US for the culture it would garner, although as long as Mongols don't get it, it shouldn't harm us. The other thing is the fact that the ToE invariably would speed tech up for everyone, as they would demand the techs from us, and we would have no choice but to cave.

The other thing is the fact that the ToE invariably would speed tech up for everyone, as they would demand the techs from us, and we would have no choice but to cave.

Indeed, if we want to get ToE within 24 turns, we'd have to research Medicine and Sci Meth, which would speed up the tech pace.

On the other hand we could continue min research on Industrialization and complete US. Maybe that's a better idea.

Well, we could also slow down our research somewhat, so that we discover Sci Meth in 24 turns -I can't look at numbers as I am posting from my work PC, where shamefully I haven't got any Civ installed... ;)

That should not speed up the tech pace too much. Additionally, I still believe that selling techs to the AI is the most effective way we have right now to slow down their research.

Pollution? I guess that's from our shakespear city?
With it being size 13, it suffers from excess people pollution.

============

First let me state that I agree with you, as I generally don't care much about US, but always persue ToE fully.

LK implied he wanted US for the culture it would garner
I caught factories have just appeared. If the pre-build in Nineveh is close to 320 shields we could make it a factory. Nineveh with a factory should beat any AI to suffrage. In fact, if we merge in a couple more workers...

We could then start another pre-build to plan to ToE. This is ONLY emperor. The odds are good we can get both. I hope we can suck a lot of money from the AI for Atomic Theory.

============

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
SesnOfWthr
Ankka (out June 17th to June 27th)
Karasu (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

Oh, by the way, I got it. :D

Pre-turn
Get World Map, little gold and a Worker from Rome for Economics

Wow, great job improving our corner of the world!

Purchase Industrialization from Vikings for 82 gpt plus 50 gp, Ivory and Furs, then set research to Medicine at 30% (due in 12); this the max rate we can afford without going negative. We are making +66 gpt now.
I then sell it to the Mongols for 481 gp (all their gold). The Mongols seem not to be able to sustain gpt payment now -good news.
Nineveh can actually build a factory in three turns. The Zulu wanted more money, and there is always the chance that the Vikings declare war again -even though I wouldn't think it is too likely, not with the gpt deal and with our military now being rated as 'average' compared to theirs.

We should not run long periods at zero science in my opinion, not at least until we are sure that we will get ToE. We are now most likely financing their research, thus increasing the tech pace.
I believe instead that we should try to stay one-two techs ahead, if we want to control the pace -it is probably a bit too early to stop researching altogether.

During the turns, I mainly rushed what buildings I could (priority to culture, of course).
Completing a couple of Banks/Marketplaces allows increase of science rate.

It seems that I cannot upgrade Pikemen to Rifles -that's probably because without Saltpeter the upgrade path through Musketmen is broken. I built a few Rifles and spread them to defend our cities, but we do need more.

1365 AD
Electricity has been around for a few turns now. Medicine is coming in 2 -hopefully we will be able to trade it for Electricity.

Sell Industrialization to Aztecs for 80 gold and 39 gpt
A Viking Knight appears on our border with Zulus. Guess what it means... :rolleyes:

1370 AD
Vikings declare on us...
Viking Knight attacks New Babylon and kills an Elite Ancient Cav (why didn't the Pike step up to defend?).
Dispose of the Scandinavian Knight.

Someone discovered Medicine, just one turn ahead of us. The Aztecs haven't got it. Hopefully we will be able to trade with them next turn.

The Vikings have a four Berserk-two Riflemen stack approaching the Izibia-Nippur-New Babylon border.
Switch Izibia to Walls (loosing a few shields, but then...)

Our culture is 28571 (+415 points from last turn)


Other notes
Uruk is on US.

The Aztecs will take Medicine for Electricity, but they will want our luxuries too. I leave the deal on the table.
Zulus also have a tradeable Saltpeter.

We have enough troops to defend that border, although I don't like our military in that area. I placed the cannons in a central position and tried to send there what we could spare from other cities, but couldn't do too much.

*** Good luck! *** (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-1375AD.zip)

Vikings declare on us...
What the?????????? I never thought it would occur this soon.

=====================================

We are now most likely financing their research, thus increasing the tech pace.
I believe instead that we should try to stay one-two techs ahead, if we want to control the pace -it is probably a bit too early to stop researching altogether.

This is where our team is working together the worse. I still completely disagree with research. You often have all the AIs wasting there time research the SAME tech. The human player will usually research a DIFFERENT path. This results in increasing the tech pace IMHO.

We still have a long time for 80K to kick in. We how bad we have been doing with resources; we could easily be without oil or rubber. Take a look at LK67 for how painful that was.

=====================================

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Microbe
SesnOfWthr (on deck)
Ankka (out June 17th to June 27th)
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

Well, yes, that was really strange -and they were getting some money too!
The only explanation at this point is that they have something with you -they only seem to attack when your turnset is about... :ack: ;)


I agree with you that we haven't found a common approach to research, and I take your point on the speeding up the pace if we actively contribute to it. Actually, I completely agree with it.

Besides, it is very important for me to play a SG as a team experience, so I do apologize if I gave the impression of playing against this kind of spirit.
Actually, I am certainly at fault for not making clear enough what is my opinion on this specific issue -you know, sometimes time just isn't there and one posts updates in a bit of a hurry... :)

So -I totally agree that we have to slow down the tech pace, especially now that we have basicly all the techs we need for culture.
With that in mind, should we keep on researching or not...

No. The reason not to do any research is quite clear: shutting science down will net us enough gpt to rush culture building and upgrade our military.

Yes. My fear is that if we stop research, we end up slowing down our research alone, while the AI go too far ahead for us to be able to ever catch up. Which will mean:
- Our military will soon become obsolete compared to theirs, whence increasing likelihood of an attack;
- Our only hope that the AI slow down their research is that they start wars or that they research the same techs. This will work at times during the game, but it is totally beyond our control: when the AIs are at peace and research different techs (for instance, at the end of the Middle Ages) the pace will speed up, and our dropping out of the tech race will not help us slow it down.
- We can actually slow down their research if we drain their money -for instance, by selling techs. This requires finding a difficult balance, because we do risk speeding up things after all.
And things will certainly become really messy once we start reaching the Industrial Age...

In the present case, I think that we should make an effort to build ToE first, and get Replaceable Parts + another tech.
We can surely research Scientific Method at low science, timing it properly with the prebuild.
After we discover ToE, we can use our two-tech lead to make money or simply shut down and wait for the AIs to catch up.
This is why I disagreed with stopping research before; what happens after will have to be reassessed: if our culture grows fast enough, we might even let them go at that point -as Infantry and Artillery will let us defend very effectively our borders for a long time.

Anyway, I'm fine with whatever the collective decision is going to be :)

I'd agree that RP is the last important tech for a while. IMO, we should try to get that and shut everything down after.

BTW - I had no problem upgrading pikes to rifles during my ten. :hmm:

The upgrade thing is probably a cash issue. Upgrading a pike to rifle costs (80-30)*3 = 150 gold. If Karasu was spending a lot of gold on culture rushes, he might not have had the 150 gold around. Or it was a barracks issue, but I doubt that was it.

You certainly can upgrade from A to C in a chain of A->B->C even if you don't have the resources for B (heck you don't even need the resources for A -- just for C).

Arathorn

1375 AD (pre-turn)
:confused: Why is Uruk building Suffrage in 36 turn? Nineveh can build it in 23 turns. I switch Uruk to factory, and Nineveh to Suffrage.

I am not happy with the placement of New Uruk. This was place on my grey X zone to NOT build a city. I manage to salvage 12 tiles for both the nearby cities, so I grudgingly keep it.

I ship the Aztecs Medicine, Furs, and Ivory. I get Electricity, wm, $46, and $2/turn in return.

The price is brutal, but I ship the Zulu $100/turn and get Saltpeter. I want more cavalry built.

I switch science to Scientific Method at 10%. I want to have a better idea of the pre-build time before deciding the final rate.
(IT) Viking and Rome trade embargo us.


1380 AD
I merge two workers into Nineveh, and the Suffrage ETA drops to 19 turns. :D

Lack of elite units is making leader fishing hard. I do manage to at least get another elite cavalry. I kill the Viking stack inside our borders losing 1 cavalry, and 1 ac.


1390 AD
One picture is worth a thousand words:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LAK-420.jpg

We know have a victorious cavalry army. The heroic epic is due in 8 turns in Babylon.

(IT) ARGGGGGGGG! We lose our source of horses as the Mongols and Scandinavia ally against us. Well $100/turn flushed down the toilet for saltpeter....


1400 AD
Scandinavia simply declares war on the Aztecs. I very stupid move since he has some cities on the Aztec continent.


1405 AD
:eek: Our pillaging army finds out that the Vikings have infantry :eek:

I dial up the Zulu and get replaceable parts for Ivory, Furs and $131/turn. I stare at the map in total utter disgust as I find out we have no rubber.
(IT) Rome and Scandinavia sign an MPP.
: Hmm: Do I smell a source of coal?
Rome declares war. This will get interesting - NOT!


1410 AD
I dial up the Aztecs and find out I can get Rubber for dyes and $42/turn. I don't bother yet, as we don't have enough spare cash to upgrade at the moment.



Summary:
This is the worse resource shaft I have had in my life.

The army is returning home, as I have spotted Viking infantry heading out way.

I can't believe the Vikings still won't talk.

I want the military academy in our #1 shield city - Nineveh.

The pre-build palace in Uruk is for ToE. We may complete the tech shortly before the pre-build has enough shields.

Once the war with the Vikings is over this is our target. We should punish the Romans and get a source of coal. We have enough units, including the army to easily raze Neapolis. DON'T try to steal the salt. That would leave the Zulu with none as we are importing one of the two from them. That increases the war risk, and our military is paper thin at the moment.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LAK-421.jpg

Culture is not an issue at this time. The Mongols appear mobilized, and are barely building culture. Our lead is increasing at this time.


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
SesnOfWthr (on deck)
Ankka (out June 17th to June 27th)
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-1425AD.zip

Got it.....

preturn: culture wise we are rising. We have 32818 and Mongols has 15081.

We are paying a lot to the AI!

MM Carchemish to build factory in 21 turns instead of 30, but only at 1fpt.

IBT Heroic Epic -> Factory. Palace expansion.

(1)1430AD: Vikings agree to talk but ask for 100g.

Culture wise we are 33256 (438cpt) vs Mongols 15180 (99cpt).

We have a settler which is not needed. Send to merge in our Shakespear city.

(2)1435AD: Vikings uploaded a cav which we kill immediately.

IBT Rome offers peace and pays us 8g + 1gpt, and I have to accept. Viking cav loses to our cav.

(3)1440AD: Mongols also agree to talk. I pay 20g.

The funny thing is, Vikings and Rome have MPP. So..I attack viking units in Zulu territory, but MPP is not triggered. Maybe next turn? We kill 2 cavs but lose one.

We can get horses by dyes+50gpt, or rubber by dyes+43gpt. I debate with myself and decide to buy the rubber, as we'll mostly play defensively, and saltpeter will expire in 7 turns.

Upgrade 7 rifles to infantry.

IBT: damn, vikings offer straight up peace too! We get 60g for peace.

(4)1445AD: merge the settler and we get US one turn earlier.

Zulu has Corporation.

(5)1450AD: ZZZ

(6)1455AD: Zulu has Sci Method! I don't think we'll get both US and ToE now. So I buy Sci Method from Zulu with 17gpt. Sci Method to Aztecs for incense + Espionage + 6g + WM. To Mongols for 44g + 48gpt + WM. We could also get horses but now almost all our cities are busy with factories, so it's not a good timing to get it.

If we get US (in 4 turns), we'll build ToE in 12 turns, which I don't think is fast enough. So I switch US to ToE losing 77 shields, and will switch the ToE prebuild to Intelligence Agency (it cannot build Hoover).

IBT we get Atomic Theory and Electronics.

(7)1460AD: Ninevsh starts Hoover due in 25.

I sell Atomic Theory to Zulu for Corporation, 2206g and 159gpt (full price). I suspect this guy will sneak attack us, but I make the deal anyway. Corporation now cannot get horses from Mongols.

I set min research to ironclads.

Short rush some factories.

(8)1465AD: Hire many civil engineers. Keep rushing some improvements.

(9)1470AD: Zulu has Steel. Our culture is 36842 vs Mongols 16484.

(10)1475AD: Our culture is 37306 (464cpt) vs Mongols 16584 (100cpt). Victory in 93 turns (year 1888?) We are definitely safe from space race.

I'm building harbor in our capital. It's starving right now.

Our 100gpt deal for saltpeter expires this turn. If we don't renew, beaware of Zulu and get our defense up in the north cities. Rushing units might be better than culture?

I forgot to plant spies. We should do so to Vikings and Rome, hoping them to declare war on us. There is a settler in New Babylon in case we could settle the coal in Rome.

Do not sell Electronics before the cascade ends!

Comments will be written up later...

===========================

Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
SesnOfWthr (on deck)
Ankka (out June 17th to June 27th)
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

We have a settler which is not needed.
Sooner or later the Zulu and Viking should go to war. Perhaps the Romans will be an idiot again and get into war. Whatever the circumstance we should settlers ready to vulture key areas.

==================================

IBT Rome offers peace and pays us 8g + 1gpt, and I have to accept.
It sucks as we don't get the coal, but nothing can be done about it. I can't even comprehend going into the era of tanks and not having a rail-net built.

==================================

The funny thing is, Vikings and Rome have MPP. So I attack Viking units in Zulu territory, but MPP is not triggered.
An MPP getting tripped requires you attack the AI territory. Some type of action needed to occur inside the Viking borders. One lousy bombard ship would have been enough...

==================================

(6)1455AD: Zulu has Sci Method! I don't think we'll get both US and ToE now.
This is very disappointing news. I was unhappy when I found during my turn that Nineveh wasn't building Suffrage. The workers should have been merged in long before my turn. With this only being emperor I really felt we could have gotten both.
:wallbash: Of course, if we had coal this would have been a non-debate. :wallbash:

==================================

(7)1460AD: Nineveh starts Hoover due in 25.
After this please build the military academy. We can't avoid more wars with the Vikings, and I would really like a more armies.

==================================

Rushing units might be better than culture?
Well I concentrate on upgrading our veteran pikes and rifles to infantry. With 2 infantry in every CORE coastal town the Berserk threat is over.

==================================

I forgot to plant spies. We should do so to Vikings and Rome, hoping them to declare war on us. There is a settler in New Babylon in case we could settle the coal in Rome.
I would hold off until the factory push is done, and we have more units heading toward the border.

OK, I got it.

I got behhind in a couple of SG's due to a disappointing concert last night, but I'll certainly do my best to get to this tonight.

Well I concentrate on upgrading our veteran pikes and rifles to infantry. With 2 infantry in every CORE coastal town the Berserk threat is over.

I upgraded a bunch too.

I think we can draft some from the north corrupted towns. Put those conscripts in inland cities and free up some vet infantry to coastal. Quite a few cities are empty.

I upgraded a bunch too.

I think we can draft some from the north corrupted towns. Put those conscripts in inland cities and free up some vet infantry to coastal. Quite a few cities are empty.


I agree - the interior cities can just have warm bodies. I would even draft from the mostly corrupted cities.

Sorry to seem like a newb, but I figure it's better to ask now than screw up the game later....

I have never had the occasion to use drafting. Are there any finer points I should be aware of? Does it cost pop? Does it cause unhappiness? Should I only do it once per town, or something to that effect, or can I use it repeatedly?

Yes it costs one pop, and like pop rushing, it causes unhappiness. So doing it once per town every 20 turns is OK. If the citizens are very happy anyway (we have a lot of happiness improvement), you can draft more. Note there is a "draft rate" for each government type. Democracy is 1, meaning you can only draft once per town in one turn.

Only do it in corrupted towns/cities, of course.

It also requires a larger city. You can't draft out of size 2 cities. I forget of the top of my head if the city needs 6 or 7 pop to draft.

OK, I think I got it now. Thanx. :)

It also requires a larger city. You can't draft out of size 2 cities. I forget of the top of my head if the city needs 6 or 7 pop to draft.

Hm, I always forget this one. It needs to be at least size 7 I think.

It’s very late here, so I’m gonna try to keep this short and sweet.

I need to keep rushing culture, upgrade what I can, and draft a few units when possible. I’ll try to note drafts for happiness purposes. (it does take size 7, minimum)

Now I KNOW that I tried to address this during my last turns, but we still have coastal cities with no/obsolete defenders. We don’t need MP, so why do we have defenders inland?

Looking around, I realize that the number of cities that fit the requirements of being mostly corrupt, and size seven for drafing is pretty low. Like 2 or 3. I draft in Nina, Tell Wilaya, Eridu, and Ellipi.

1480 ad (1) – Roman/Viking trade embargo ends.

1485 ad (2) – Rush a uni in Nimrud.

1490 ad (3) – Rush a uni here, upg a pike there.

1495 ad (4) – I’d like to upg some of these MDI’s, but 150g seems a bit steep. Cancel the salt deal with the Zulu since we have no horses anyhow.

1500 ad (5) - Upgrade our last pike.

1505 ad (6) – Zulu complete US. Some deal or other ends, as we now make 512 gpt.

1510 ad (7) – AFAIK, every tile is now improved.

1515 ad (8) – Aztecs and Vikings sign peace.

1520 ad (9) – Rushing around.

1525 ad (10) – see above

Not much to recap here, just tried to stick with the basic plan. I was able to build another dozen or so infantry.

Culture numbers: Us: 42183, 514 last turn. Zulu (now second): 18075, 215 last turn.


>>>SAVE<<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-1525AD.zip)

1500 ad (5) - Upgrade our last pike.
Now that is good news :) :)


1510 ad (7) – AFAIK, every tile is now improved.
Well as much as we can. We still painfully need coal.


Overall a quite turn which is good since we lack a rail-net, and fast troops.

===================================

Signed up:
LKendter (on deck)
Microbe
SesnOfWthr
Ankka (out June 17th to June 27th)
Karasu (currently playing)

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.

I also meant to mention that there are several trades available, but none that seemed like a good value for us. Besides, many of them include Electronics, which we may want to keep under wraps for a few more turns. I think we have about a dozen turns left on Hoover's. However, when the Zulu completed US there was no cascade, so anybody tring to beat us to it would have to do so from scratch -- not very likely.

However, when the Zulu completed US there was no cascade, so anybody tring to beat us to it would have to do so from scratch -- not very likely.
There is always the risk of a science leader. I have see the AI start and complete a wonder in 1 turn. :eek:
I would continue to hog Electronics until Hoover is at ONE turn away. The human wins ties, and the AI pays more when the wonder is available. See what Music Theory sells for after Bach's is complete.

No, you're absolutely right, I was just thuinking that we might end up losing out monopoly, and therefore some of the value of the tech.

Incidentally, it looks like we're now about 74 turns to victory. Microbe's calculation showed that we had 93 turns to victory when I picked it up. If we can keep up the pace, we may finish in another round or so. :)

Although we are running out of culture to rush (a good problem to have IMO). I think most cities were rushed up to unis, now we have some churches to rush, and then it's just collosseums.

Got it (I was out for the weekend ;) )

Here I come :)

There were not many events during my turns. I am posting a summary of the main things below.

Trades:
Sell Ivory to Vikings for 60 gp and 8 gpt
Sell Furs to Mongols for 93 gold and 6 gpt.
Sell Industrialization to Rome for Sanitation, 23 gold and 5 gpt (all he has).

Our deal with Aztecs expire. We gain a little less money and we have no more Incense.
We can sell Atomic Theory to Vikings or Mongols, but they cannot pay gpt right now.


Military: We now have at least two Infantries for each coastal cities, plus a few spare units. Therefore I started building mainly artilleries.


Politics: we renew the peace deal with Rome (1540 AD)
Aztecs and Mongols sign a peace treaty (1545 AD); Zulus and Aztecs ally against Rome (1545 AD). Aztecs make peace with Rome (1550 AD). They surely have been busy... :crazyeye:


Buildings: Start Military Academy in Uruk, due in a few turns now.
Rush culture buildings as usual wherever possible, but also set quite some cities on Marketplace -> Bank -> Stock Exchange. Wall Street wouldn't hurt...


Culture: In 1575 AD we have 47637 culture points, +558 from last turn (and I have just rushed a University)
The Zulus are at 20251, +223 from last turn.

And the save! (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LK69-1575AD.zip)

Zulus and Aztecs ally against Rome
Time to check if we can finally vulture the Roman coal, or buy some from the Zulu

=================

Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
SesnOfWthr
Ankka (out June 17th to June 27th)
Karasu

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.
>> Starting with LK68 the LK series is on patch 1.22.

The variant rules - this is meant to be a passive cultural win game as much as possible.

1) During despotism we must cave to all demands.

2) After despotism we have the right to refuse demands beyond cash / world map. However, our civ dislikes war. Is the item worth fighting over?

3) We may not demand other AI civs leave our territory, except for a clear sneak attack. If the Zulu and Vikings are fighting each other going through our territory we allow it.

4) Once spies arrive, we many only plant spies, and steal techs. I don't want other actions that are designed mainly to encourage war.

5) We must accept peace once the civ will give it to use for free. We are allowed to take concessions during the peace talks.

6) We are prohibited from signing alliances and MPPs.

7) We may not declare war except for the following reasons:
A) To stop a space launch
B) We hit 80K, but another civ has at least 40K. This still is meant to be a limited war.

8) When in doubt about actions please think about the spirit of the game.