After playing it on regent and monarch level it is time to try it on emperor. We don't HAVE to be at war constantly. The end result however should be a conquest victory for us.

The OCC variant in this SG means: at the end of the turn we may not have more than one city. During the turn we may have as many as we want. So we are allowed to demand cities for peace and then abandon them.

We will play a small map. Probably pangaea, but maybe archipelago when we choose to be the Vikings... After winning it on regent with the Zulu and on monarch with the Arabs I think that a lot of civs are good choices for emperor. I am leaning towards the Ottomans, Russians or Germans, because somehow I expect that this one will last longer than the monarch game, which ended just before Cavalry. These three have great UU's and are scientific. A good trait in an OCC imho. Personally I like the Germans very much, but maybe panzers may come a bit late. Other suggestions are very welcome. I'd like to see a good discussion about which tribe to choose and why.

GAME RULES
AI Aggression: normal
Opponents: 5 random AI's.
Rules: Standard, all standard single player victories enabled
Barbarians: No barbarians/sedentary
Level: Emperor
C3C 1.22

BANNED TACTICS
These are the exploits that I want to avoid in the game:

"Phony Peace Treaty": Making Peace Treaties without having the intention to stay at peace, just to get cheap techs or money.

"Palace Jump"; Jumping the palace by disbanding the capital. Rushing a palace or building it brick by brick is OK.

"RoP Rape": Using Right of Passage to move whole armies into attack position.

"Throwaway Cities": It is possible to go everywhere by settling, moving a setter one tile further in, abandoning the old city, founding a new one, etc...etc... A city shouldn't be abandoned in the same turn as it is settled.

"Resource Piracy": Sitting on resources or deny a civ access to a tile inside the borders of the rival while at peace.

"Dogpiling": Adding multiple workers to cities to increase population beyond the food supply.

"Seed Corn": It is not allowed to buy the LAST TWO workers from the AI before 1000 BC.

"Negative cash research": The penalty of negative cash is only one unit/improvement. So there are cases where this can be worthwile. Science spending must be lowered when the cash would go below zero.

OTHERS:
Things that I didn't name but are in the spirit of what I mention above I would like to have discussed.

PLAYERS
4 players are already in the roster, 1 more is welcome. I'd say that you should be comfortable to play a tough deity variant.

(edit June 17th, 7.54 AM CET) :
ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
Greebley
homeyg
6thgentexan
Microbe

Roster is full

24hrs to post a "got it" notice, and up to 48hrs after that to finish and post your turns. (edit June 8th, 7.30 AM CET: ) First player can do 25 turns, after that 15 turns per player, 10 turns per player in war times.

I'm leaning towards the Russians. Extra defense will be helpful with our limited production and Expansion will be a better trait than Industrious for this game if you give us the sedentary barbs.

What map size are you thinking about?

Personally, the biggest problems that I have faced playing OCC at monarch and above is not militaristic defeat but cultural and domination defeat. So I look forward to playing this one.

I keep thinking I won't join and then they look too tempting when I see them. I would like to join if you have room

Shoot! I'm too late! (Wanted to sign up)

Check in.

I like Ottoman's UU more than Russia. Zerks are cool too, and they don't require any resources to build.

I really don't know how to choose between Pangea or Archipelago. They probably require totally different stretegies.

Pangea means AI gets to each other fast and we can benefit from alliance and AI wars, which will slow the tech pace down. However, AI resettling would be much faster too, making the game difficult at a late stage.

Archipelago on the other hand makes it easy to take out AI one by one, but alliance is probably not gonna give us real meaning. It also means we probably won't be able to get to the last few AIs before late Middle Ages, making it more difficult.

In any case, I think we have to be on coastal and build Colossus for the extra commerce.

@betazed: This will be a small map again.

@Greebley and homeyg: Welcome! I figure that a team of 6 isn't too big for a game that will probably see the Industrial Age.

@6thGenTexan: The Russians don't have extra defense anymore, but can attack multiple times in a turn. I think that can be very useful as well. I agree that expansionist is a good trait for us. So I probably like expansionist/scientific most.

@microbe: I only want to try Archipelago with the Vikings. Then we obviously will start on the coast. I agree with the Colossus. We should be able to build it in most cases.

I count the following votes:
-1 x Germany (Aggie)
-1 x Russia (6thGenTexan)
-1 x Ottomans or Vikings (microbe)

Looking at it now I think that scientific/expansionist would be a great combo. Militaristic, Industrious, Religious, Agricultural sounds less appealing to me.
Seafaring only sounds nice when we play the Vikings on archipelago.

ROSTER (is full):
Aggie
6thgentexan
Microbe
betazed
Greebley
homeyg

Two questions, even though I am not in the game.

1) Are you not underestimating the power of commercial civs. Having the extra gold means you can keep that much more troops. It is very comforting to have during late Ancient, and early medieval.

2) Are you allowed to build settlers ? ( If you are, you need not go to such extreme lengths to get one or two armies. )
Grimjack

Two questions, even though I am not in the game.

1) Are you not underestimating the power of commercial civs. Having the extra gold means you can keep that much more troops. It is very comforting to have during late Ancient, and early medieval.

2) Are you allowed to build settlers ? ( If you are, you need not go to such extreme lengths to get one or two armies. )
Grimjack

Grimjack, thanks for the comments.

1) Commercial is very powerful indeed. I should have mentioned that as well. But I had trouble to find a nice civ with a great UU and other strong trait. But thinking about it a bit more gives me the Iroquois (plus agri), Hittites (plus expansionist).

2) Hmmm... A good one. Somehow I don't like the idea of founding a 2nd city. So I want to ban that. Only capturing and demanding is allowed. Settlers popped from the hut may be joined to the one city.

I assume if we get a town from a hut we simply abandon it right away?

I agree that we shouldn't be able to build settlers. I much prefer we either we play a pure OCC and never have armies or we have to capture/demand 3 cities to get one. The latter is enough challenge to make an army seem worthwhile.

I am slightly inclined toward a strict OCC to see if we can do it, but certainly like the other way as well.

Remember though that capturing and abandoning a city will transfer all the AI unhappiness from whipping and drafting to our city so we shouldn't do it when we don't have a strong reason to.

[Edit: For some reason, I don't feel like playing the Vikings. I would much prefer a Pangea. Edit2: I will go with Germany as my vote ]

That makes the vote:
-2 x Germany (Aggie, Greebley)
-1 x Russia (6thGenTexan)
-1 x Ottomans or Vikings (microbe)

I'm waiting for homeyg and betazed to vote as well. After that I will start up the game. I'm not looking for a majority vote, but do like to know if someone has objections against one of the 4 civs above. At this moment it looks like either Germany, Russia or the Ottomans.

We should abandon the hut right away indeed. I do like the idea of a pure OCC, but I'm afraid that this will make things very difficult. Therefore I go for the light variant. You are right about the unhapiness issues!

I too vote Germany (although I am slightly worried about the late UU).

I would vote for either the Vikings or the Ottomans.

That means that we will play as Germany (3 votes, while Ottomans or Vikings have 2). I will start up the game now...

OCC's are always fun to play...and quite fast too! I will enjoy watching this game unfold. Too bad I wasn't watching the threads early yesterday! :)

Archipelago or pangea?

And please, make us coastal. ;)

LMAO! Shoulda picked Vikings! LMAO!!!

It will be a pangaea map, with the Germans, small, no barbarians... I hope that we will be coastal ;)

We can always move a few spaces to be coastal, right?

Sure we can, but we don't have to. I started the game and we are coastal.

It'll be interesting to see how you guys grab a GA.

Ok, sounds good. Agreed that a pure OCC would be only if we wanted a really difficult game. It is always fun going for the army :D

From Nads, 5VsWorld game, I am guessing we will reach use our UU.

@Kiech: I like a challenge :)

We are coastal, are on a river with a lot of plains. But also wheat, a fish, sugar and insence :) I settle on the spot. Which reveals more insence and an oasis.
I start with a warrior and gamble on 100% science towards Iron Working....

Turn 1 (3950 BC) The worker starts with irrigation of a plains field.

Turn 2 - 4 (3900 - 3800 BC) :sleep:

Turn 5 (3750 BC) Warrior->warrior. Warrior goes north.

Turn 6 - 7 (3700 BC - 3650 BC) Warrior moves over hilltops around our city.

Turn 8 (3600 BC) Worker ends roading the first tile and goes to the wheat.

Turn 9 (3550 BC) :sleep:

Turn 10 (3500 BC) Warrior->Colossus. Second warrior stays home.

Turn 11 (3450 BC) Our scouting warrior spots a lot of cows to the north.

Turn 12 (3400 BC) :sleep:

Turn 13 (3350 BC) Warrior now spots a lot of jungle.

Turn 14 (3300 BC) The scouting warrior sees pink borders.

Turn 15 (3250 BC) During the IT a warrior moves into view, close to our capital. It's French. They lack Warrior Code, but have Alphabet and Masonry.
No deals are possible.

Turn 16 - 17 (3200 - 3150 BC) :sleep:

Turn 18 (3100 BC) We are size 3 and this requires 10% lux tax.

Turn 19 - 20 (3050 BC - 3000 BC) :sleep:

IT: We are playing a game vs the Romans, Americans, French, Maya and Inca.

Turn 21 - 24 (2950 - 2800 BC BC) :sleep:

Turn 25 (2750 BC) We are size 4. Lux tax fgoes to 20%. Ther worker starts connecting incense. France now also has Ceremonial Burial. We need 6 more turns for Iron Working and 29 for the Colossus.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan--> up
Microbe-------> on deck
betazed
Greebley
homeyg

OK! Pangea and coastal.

Since we have a very late UU, I think we cannot ignore research ourselves. We need to play similarly to the OCC space game and get those scientific wonders.

On seeing the map the first thought that came to my mind was, "Look all that food (cattle) and we cannot use it" :cry: Apart from that looks ok. We have got a lux too!

You have got to have the LUCKIEST OCC spot I have seen in a while!!! I mean look, your ONLY desert has an OASIS! Very nice indeed! Bonus grass! Sugar and Wheat!

Now all you need is iron...

You have got to have the LUCKIEST OCC spot I have seen in a while!!! I mean look, your ONLY desert has an OASIS! Very nice indeed! Bonus grass! Sugar and Wheat!

Now all you need is iron...

It's not very good for an OCC game! Only one grassland.

I've got it.

2750BC-0 Nothing to do.
2710BC-1 Explorer heads N along east coast.
2670BC-2 The same.
2630BC-3 Explorer follows the coast NW.
2590BC-4 The same.
2550BC-5 More of the same. I can't drop science for IW next turn.
2510BC-6 Incense and IW arrive. Iron is 4 squares N of Berlin about half way to Orleans. I mine the Incense since I'm already there. Joan picked up WC this turn. She is still up Alphabet, Masonry and CB. We can get Alpnabet or Masonry plus 10g for our IW. Not really worth it yet. I start on The Wheel in 18 to find the horses.
2470BC-7 Berlin is at 5 now and holding at 20% tax.
2430BC-8 Still exploring north.
2390BC-9 The same.
2350BC-10 More of the same.
2310BC-11 Nothing new to report.
2270BC-12 Watching the grass grow.
2230BC-13 Watching the paint dry.
2190BC-14 The gamble for the Wheel failed. France now has it. Berlin is now at 6 but holding at 20%.
2150BC-15 I also chose poorly having our explorer head north...no one home. IW will still get Alpha or Masonry+10g from France. Wheel due in 4, Colossus in 8 and size 7 in 9 turns. We may wnat to halt the growth at 7 to increase or shields for a while. We need to explore SE and W with warriors and we need the temple built.

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG10-2150BC.SAV)

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan
betazed-------> up
Greebley-------> on deck
homeyg
Microbe

Aggie, could you put me at the end? I am playing LK65 which is another huge map game, and also up in AG7..

Changed it!

Got it. Playing now.

Turn 1: :sleep: Hmmm. I see no chance of a two fer here now. And we need alphabet to go for the Glib. So I am going to trade Alphabet for IW with France now when I can. She gives us Alphabet and 10 G for IW>

Turn 2: :sleep:

Turn 3: hill mined. start roading BG.

Turn 4: Start CB. Due in 6. We can build a temple soon.

Turn 5: :sleep:
Turn 6: :sleep:
Turn 7: ROad on BG finishes. Start mine.

Turn 8: Finish the colossus. Start a curragh. We need this for exploring and meeting others.

Turn 9: CB comes in start on Writing. Due in 18.

Turn 10: Curragh -> Temple.

Turn 11: I see blue border.

Turn 12: Contact America. No Trades possible. They are up just Masonry and Pottery.

Turn 13: :sleep:

Turn 14: :sleep:

Turn 15: Finish Temple. Start on another Curragh to go the other way. Also warrior sees a yellow/orange border right beside us.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG10_1600BC.JPG

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG10__1600_BC.SAV)

One thing though. I forgot to MM Berlin. Please check to make sure that it is using the tiles optimally. It grew three turns ago.

We see no horses near by and France took the iron. This will be difficult :)

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan
betazed
Greebley-------> up
homeyg--------> on deck
Microbe

Ok, I got it. I can play this tonight.

Only 1 worker? You guys are ballsy.

Did you mean to say one warrior instead of worker? 1 warrior scans better than 1 worker.

===========

Preturn: As Betazed mentioned Berlin can be MM'ed. It is now +3 food and still makes the Curragh in 2.

IBT:

1575 BC:

IBT:
Berlin: Curragh->Barracks

1550 BC: Send Curragh south. The northern Curragh spots a red border.
MM to 10 shields for Barracks and troops. We are at +2 food and working big gold tiles.

IBT:

1525 BC: We meet Rome. They have writing which lowers our number of turns.
They lack Ceremonial burial, so I trade CB and 4 gold for Pottery. All civs have Masonry, Rome has Writing and the others have Myst. We get writing RSN so I will finish research on it myself.

IBT: Barracks->Warrior (As MP so I can lower lux I hope)

1500 BC:

IBT: Warrior->Granary (Granary in 6, growth in 7).

1475 BC: Lux cab be lowered to 10% which is good as we are running -4 gpt before. Now we are -2 gpt with writing in 2.
Interesting: we cannot go north. We are either on a bay or inland ocean. and there is a 1 square choke. That could be useful someday to keep half the world off the other half (unless we connect to the south as well).

IBT:

1450 BC: Writing next turn; cannot lower science

IBT: Writing->Lit or Phil (Not sure yet).

1425 BC: France got writing this turn too which is too bad. We can trade writing for Horse Back from Maya (which Rome doesn't have).
Trade HBR with America for Mysticism and Masonry (Rome must know some others and won't give as good a price).
It turns out Mayans and French know mathematics, but Rome and America do not. This means I chose wrong. Not only that but Rome and America will trade next turn for sure with them each having a tech the other does not.

I gift America writing and they become gracious. Now they cannot trade. Unlikely for me to get anything for HBR from Rome, but this way we have a chance.

Philo is only 12 turns, so I am going to try for it. France demands all our gold. Fortunately, I just adjusted us so we were not running negative. A turn earlier and we would have either been at war or lost something (Thinking on it, running with a deficit was not very wise of me - it got writing earlier though.

IBT:

1400 BC: Maya picked up Polytheism in the interturn.

IBT:

1375BC: No diplo changes

IBT:

1350 BC: Diplo is unchanged.

IBT: Granary->Worker (growth in 1)

1325 BC: Diplo is unchanged.

IBT: Worker->Pyramids (prebuild)

1300 BC: Yow! another 1 square choke to the north. Have to lower science and MM to get back to positive gold. I started pyramids a prebuild probably for the GLib.
Diplo unchanged.

1275 BC:

1250 BC: Well this year is one of the divisible by 10 years and it felt like 15 turns so I will stop here. Certainly 5 more turns would be too many.

Notes:
My plan was to be the first to Philosophy and choose Lit as our tech so we can switch or pyramids over to the GLib before the Pyramids are built (no palace prebuilds this game).

We have started the long trek to the GLib and have a decent shot at getting it. It will make life easier and give us lots-o-cash.

We have a unit cost of 3 gpt. This is why I didn't go for more units. Lets get the GLib first and then we will have the cash for buckets-o-units.

I just noticed I was mistaken about one choke (it is a lake so no 1 square choke).

ok, Here is a picture with the chokes marked.

One thing to discuss... If we made the really long teal road, we could get 2 luxes and iron. Would this be worthwhile, or would be just lose our colonies too quickly? Anyone have experience with this?

Okay, I got it but I can't play until tomorrow morning.

I have no experience with the long road, but I think that the AI will grab the luxuries before we finish the road. Looks like we have to depend on trade in this game.

I think that the Philo/Lit gambit is the right choice here. But we must be aware that an AI may demand Lit from us, getting the Great Library faster this way.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan
betazed
Greebley
homeyg--------> up
Microbe--------> on deck

Did you mean to say one warrior instead of worker? 1 warrior scans better than 1 worker.

One Worker. The faster you develop your land, the more production you will have...and you need all you can get!

But you have the Colossus, and moving on to the Glib...good turns so far!

Your point on demand of lit is a good one. Perhaps we should go for another tech we can trade as our freebie if we still have sufficient turns to go so that we get lit before our palace build completes by researching as the next tech.

I wonder if they are less likely to demand a tech if you have enough cash on hand for them to demand that? For example, supposing they have a set value to demand (say 40 gold), then they may ask for the gold since we have that much rather than the tech. If they had less than 40 they would always demand the tech. Anyone ever explore this idea?

If we want GL, we need a prebuild first, otherwise do not get Literature. It's also usually too cheap to get as a free tech, so maybe choose another tech like Map Making or CoL. I usually go CoL then min on Republic.

Before I play my turns, I wanted to share an idea about the long road I had last night. If we built the road and the colonies along with it, all we would have to do is position troops on all of the eight squares around each of the colonies to prevent them from simply building a city to destroy them. We would be able to keep our resources longer if we did that...

The pyramids IS the prebuild. The problem with not getting it soon is that this is the only prebuild we have. Once the AI gets it there will be no prebuild possible.

The risk of not getting Lit right away is that Pyramids will complete and we won't have anything to prebuild with.

The rist of getting lit right away is that it will be demanded from us by a near civ.

The pyramids IS the prebuild.

OK, I didn't look at the save. When did the AI start Pyramids?

Turn 0: No available trades, nothing else to report.

IBT: Maya asks us to leave their territory, I do so.

Turn 1: Workers finish mining oasis, I move them both to the plains below Berlin. I send northern curragh south towards the Americans. I send warrior near Maya north. Send southern curragh north.

IBT: Nothing new.

Turn 2: 1 worker begins roading plains while the other worker begins irrigating the plains. We can lower science still keeping philosophy coming in 5 turns but we now gain 2 gpt.

IBT: Purple warrior comes into view. It is the Inca.

Turn 3: I contact the Inca and find that we are up writing, but they don't have anything we don't already have. Philosophy in 4 turns.

IBT: Nothing new.

Turn 4: Nothing new. Philosophy in 3 turns.

IBT: Maya asks us to leave their territory again, and I do so.

Turn 5: Worker finishes roading plains and helps other worker with irrigation to finish it the same turn. Worker moves to adjacent plains. Philosophy in 2 turns.
Tech update: Inca has nothing on us, we have writing on them
Maya has Mathematics and Polytheism on us
France has Mathematics
Rome has nothing on us, we have HBR on them
America has nothing on us, we have nothing on them

IBT: Nothing new.

Turn 6: Worker begins roading plains, other worker moves to same square. Capital grows in 2. Philosophy comes in 1.

IBT: We get philosophy, I choose literature as our freebie and I begin on mapmaking.

Turn 7: I change capital to build the GL. Worker begins irrigating. Raised science to 60% to get mapmaking in 23 turns. We are not gaining any gpt. Trade France philosophy for mathematics and 54 gold. Traded Rome mathematics, philosophy, and 12 gold for mapmaking. We are now down only polytheism to the Mayans. I didn't trade literature to anyone. I'm going to wait until we are closer to the GL. Began researching construction in 42 turns.

IBT: Capital grows to size 8.

Turn 8. Had to lower science to 50% in order to raise luxury slider to 20% due to unhappiness in capital. Construction now comes in 49 turns. Lower science to 10% to gain 10 gpt. Doesn't affect how fast construction is researched (49 turns).

IBT: I see that the Inca start the Temple of Artemis, so they must have philosophy now.

Turn 9: I trade the Inca mathematics, 66 gold, and 1 gpt for philosophy. We now have at least literature over everyone else. We are now technologically advanced compared to when I picked up the game where we were only moderately advanced. Worker finished road and helps with irrigation, not finishing it this turn.

IBT: Nothing new.

Turn 10: Workers finish irrigation and head over to connect incense (no other squares can be worker on without chopping forests). Capital grows in 8 turns and finishes GL in 18 turns.

IBT: Nothing new.

Turn 11: Find another possible choke with curragh (might not be one, though). Workers move onto incense square.

IBT: Nothing new.

Turn 12: Turns out that the choke is really a choke, Inca can be blocked of with proper unit positioning (it's to far away for now, though). Two workers begin roading incense square.

IBT: Americans begin ToA (who cares?).

Turn 13: Nothing new.

IBT: Nothing new.

Turn 14: Still no one has literature.

IBT: Incan city of Cuzco finishes The Pyramids. French warrior moves next to our border.

Turn 15: Workers finish road and move to next incense square. GL in 13 and growth in 3.

The map hasn't really changed, so I'm not including a screenie (if you want to see one, just let me know).

Here is the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG10_BC875.SAV).

No idea actually. I used to know what range of years is likely for the pyramids at Emporer level, but I have been playing Deity and have forgotten. I would say that it is 1000 BC - 400 BC?

Edit: Cross-posted.

Edit2: Well played Homeyg. Some good trades to keep us up in tech and clearly going for Lit was right to keep our prebuild.

Ideally we don't ever want to sell lit until we are 1 turn away as it can be lost via cascade.

How many turns to the GLib? Do you remember?

13 turns...

Cool! It sounds like we have a very good chance to get it.

I have been trying to figure if caving to a demand for Lit is better if it America (for example) demanding it. I think the answer is unfortunately yes. Even America could get across the sea quickly. It is would be really bad if we get a demand and lose to a cascade, but I don't see any way around it.

Preturn: we have 2 warriors..and we are playing a conquest game? :lol:

I create embassy with France: Paris is size 1, 1spt building a worker. She knows Rome and Maya.

IBT France starts MoM - this is the wonder I want.

(1)850BC: Maya has CoL. I sell Writing to Inca for 93g.

I then build Embassy with Maya - size 7, 1 lux, 9spt building ToA due in 7. He knows everyone except America. No AI war spotted.

(2)825BC: ZZZ

IBT America demands Philosophy and he gets it.

(3)800BC: Berlin grows to 9 and GL due in 9 turns. France has Currency.

(4)775BC: I dont see why we are researching so I shut it off and get 3gpt more.

IBT Rome starts ToA and completes Oracle. America starts MoM.

(5)750BC: ZZZ

IBT Inca also starts ToA. Maya/France start MoM.

(6)730BC: I get a French worker+7g by Polytheism.

(7)710BC: France and Maya now exchanged techs.

IBT Maya completes ToA. America completes MoM. :( Looks like we'd have to get Hanging Gardens.

(8)690BC: Start moving the warrior back home.

Establish embassy with Rome: size 6, 1 lux, 5spt. He knows everyone except Inca.

IBT France starts Great Lighthouse.

(9)670BC: Map Making to America for worker and 57g.

IBT Maya demands Literature, I cave naturally. It starts GL immediately, too late buddy!

(10)650BC: Lit has passed around.

(11)630BC: Lit to Rome for worker.

IBT Great Library is completed. I start spearman.

(12)610BC: Philosophy to Inca for worker+17g.

IBT We get CoL and Currency, I switch spear to market.

(13-15)590BC-550BC: ZZZ

We are building market which is important for income and happiness. We then should build a harbor immediately so we could buy resources from AIs, then start building military. But our neighbors are strong, especially Maya. Not sure when we can go on offense. :( I think we should take Maya first as they spread really fast.

Ya, a market is the choice build. Have the AI built harbors yet for trade?

Good work on securing the GLib. Not sure the HGardens is worth it for us as it expires and is 1? happiness I would rather go for Leo or Sistine.

The best wonder to my mind is actually Shakespeares. We could try pushing our resarch to there and getting it earlyish. Size 20 would be nice.

Ya, a market is the choice build. Have the AI built harbors yet for trade?

Good work on securing the GLib. Not sure the HGardens is worth it for us as it expires and is 1? happiness I would rather go for Leo or Sistine.

Sistine isn't an OCC wonder, so I don't want it. Leo is probably not either. I suspect we won't upgrade many units (except maybe knights->cavalry).

HG isn't my favorate wonder either. I never build it. Probably not worth. I just wanted MoM very much.

The best wonder to my mind is actually Shakespeares. We could try pushing our resarch to there and getting it earlyish. Size 20 would be nice.

Yes. However, as I look at this game, it seems to be a builder's game now..

A builder's game... Yes. But we can build up military as well (we don't want every infra building). I'd go for the Knights Templar by the way!

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie--------up
6thgentexan--on deck
betazed
Greebley
homeyg
Microbe

I had forgotten about the Knight's Templar.

I mentioned Sistine because it does the same thing as MoM (+2 happiness instead of +3, I think and costs more shields). I also think Leo is always useful - we will have limited cash and Leo makes our units have a longer lifespan. Knights Templar is clearly superior wonder however and the one to go for.

I personally think that building up first is better than trying the early attack. There is little to gain by the early attack. If we go for the Knights Templar then that determines the timing of our first war to my mind.

Shakespeares would delay our wars some but if we had 8 workers ready to merge into the city when it was built, we would have a lot more shields and gold so the wonder would certainly pay for itself.

Whether Shakespeares is worthwhile I think depends a lot on the path the AI takes. Very often they take the upper path first which means we could get Shakespeare much earlier - I have seen the AI get Democracy before Chemistry, which means size 20 way before Sanitation.

On the other hand, if we can't get it before Mil Trad is researched, then a war using cavalry seems better.

Turn 1 (530 BC) I chop a forest tile. A Maya warrior comes from the west into our lands...

Turn 2 (510 BC) Rome starts the Great Wall. The Maya warrior fortifies...

Turn 3 (490 BC) Market->harbor. Lux is still on 20% :( For 100 gold in total I establish embassies in America and the Inca empire. Rome and the Maya know the world. Other tribes do not.

Turn 4 (470 BC) The Maya get 240 gold for 2 workers.

Turn 5 (450 BC) Harbor->archer. We make 15 spt, so an archer isn't the best unit. But we haven't got options to build units with 30 shields :(
The harbor didn't open up the trade routes.

IT: The Maya now send 5 warriors to our lands :eek:

Turn 6 (430 BC) The Maya have Monarchy, while the Romans have Construction. I hope they will trade them soon :)

IT: Now also a galley shows up!! Archer->archer.

Turn 7 (410 BC) I let Berlin starve (size 11), but we have an archer every turn now. With 2 warriors and an archer in the capital plus a warrior just returning home it is getting very dangerous.

IT: The galley sails away and the warriors don't take a straight line to our city!! Archer->archer. We get Monarchy for free, but I don't revolt YET. We also get Construction. Our free tech is Monotheism.

Turn 8 (390 AD) I will produce at least two archers more before I revolt. And of course I see what the Maya are up to before doing anything stupid. The AI has nothing to offer for our techs.

IT: The Maya either surround us or ignore us. 7 warriors are now in our territory. Archer->archer.

Turn 9 (370 AD) :sleep:

IT: Berlin: archer->spear. The Maya pass us and head for a French city west of us.

Turn 10 (350 AD) :sleep:

IT: The Maya declare war on the French and attack Dijon with warriors :eek: Spear->spear.

Turn 11 (330 BC) Forest chopped.

IT: The Maya and Rome sign a MA vs France. The Maya warriors destroy Dijon. Spear->Cathedral. We could use more hapiness to lower lux tax.

Turn 12 (310 BC) :sleep:

IT: Rome demands Montheism and I decline. They back down!

Turn 13-15 (290-250 BC) :sleep:

No tribe gives us enough for Monotheism. I didn't choose to go on a science run towards Theology, which I could have done. Let's keep in mind that we want the Knight's Templar. I forgot to revolt to Monarchy. We may want to disband the curraghs when we know the world.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan--up
betazed------ on deck
Greebley
homeyg
Microbe

It's funny when the AI looks set's itself up so it looks like it's going to attack you but then attacks someone else (well maybe funny's not the word).

I've got it. I see that I get to be crowned the first King of Germany. Depending on our Military status, I may help the Mayans and Rome with France. We need to free up their iron.

Hmmmm....France and Germany fighting over an "indurstrial" territory. :hmm:

Look around and see that we will have to do something about the Mayans soon. With 300+ in the bank, I decide to revolt now. I can always rush the temple afterwards and the added MP will help. Six turns of anarchy.

230BC-1 Move workers to extend road to our future Iron deposit.

210BC-2 nothing

190BC-3 not much

170BC-4 Curragh's start long journey home. The Western route is shorter.

150BC-5 Road connected to the French. I want to join the battle against them so I will not trade fore their furs or spices. Start clearing last forest square.

130BC-6 We now join the rest of the world as a Monarchy. Cathedral in 6 making +46GPT.

IBT The French complete the Great Lighthouse.

110BC-7 Attempt to road to Mayan town of Tulum.

90BC-8 Asked to leave Mayan territory.

70BC-9 Move 2 spears and 4 archer to French border.

50BC-10 France is now in the MA.

IBT The Mayans complete the Hanging Gardens.

30BC-11 Caesar will pay more than Smoke-Jaguar for the alliance vs. France but I will hold off. I'll let the next leader start the war.

IBT This is interesting, S-J wants Monotheism. He cannot have it. He will fight for it.

10BC-12 Military forces leave French border for Mayan. Cathedral completed and 0% tax generates +56GPT. 20spt is an archer/spear/catapult per turn. Starting with a few more spears.

10AD-13 Spear frees up warrior to head west.

IBT after checking to see that Sapa-Inca wanted Currency, Construction and 70g to fight the Mayans, he joins up with them against us.

30AD-14 Spear frees up warrior to head west.

50AD-15 Spear frees up warrior to head west.
Attack Tulum:
vet archer defeats reg spear losing 1hp but promoting to elite
vet archer loses to reg spear down to 1hp
vet archer defeats reg spear losing 3hp but promoting to elite.
vet warrior defeats 1hp spear to capture a worker and destroys the town netting a second slave.
Fourth archer and 2 spears fortify in the forest with 2 reg swords and a spear next to us.

Not the war I expected but the war we have. I did not give in to the demands because I was watching the price of Monotheism. S-J was up to 50GPT and 300g. His ToA will make our journey to take his iron harder. We will need to destroy Uaxactun before going for Tikal(iron). Our "army" should march on to Tikal and pillage the iron and send new archers to Uaxactun.

I have 3 spears on MP duty in Berlin now. Feel free to change the build to archer or catapult.

Max science is at -18GPT for Theology in 24, Engineering in 22 or Feudalism in 20.

Knights Templar will take 15 turns to build from scratch. Feudalism-->Chivalry at max is an option with 799g in the bank.



The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG10_50AD.zip)

Intersting. This will be a brutal game I expect!

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan
betazed------ up
Greebley----- on deck
homeyg
Microbe

Whoa! I am up in three SGs now. Ok got it. This is going to be one long (and entertaining night)! :)

IBT after checking to see that Sapa-Inca wanted Currency, Construction and 70g to fight the Mayans, he joins up with them against us.


Are we at war with three civs now? :eek:

Only 2. The Mayans next door and the Inca who are on the other side of the Mayans. I decided to wait on attacking the French because they were getting the best of the Mayans. On a side note, I did not see a Jag Thrower from the Mayans. They may have had their GA attacking the Inca already.

No idea how to win the game, but I think we probably really should start conquest after railroads to reach and eliminate the AI fast. Before that, wonder building! Get all scientific wonders and do self-research, and get a lot of money by selling techs in the industrial ages, then build a large army. We should let AIs fight before that.

I want to let the team know I will be out of town (and without a computer) Wednesday through Sunday. If my turn(s) come up during that time, just skip me. I'll still be here today and tomorrow, though.

Playing Now.

Pre turn: Two regular swords impale themselves against our spears. We learn Republic.

Turn 1: Berlin Spear -> Library. I know I know. But I want to get these culture buildings as soon as possible. That way one option remains open. I abandon both the curraghs.

IBT: Maya and France sign a peace Treaty. A sword kills our spear.

Turn 2: Elite archer takes out a reg Mayar sword but it redlined.

IBT: We get another culture expansion. Library -> Archer.

Turn 3: We brace for Mayan attack from all sides.

IBT: No attacks all move towards the capital.

Turn 4: Two archers take out to Jav throwers.

IBT: We learn Feaudalism.

Turn 5: Now I have 10 Mayan units on our territory. I kill two Mayan jav throwers with tow archers. Then I sign a peace deal with them. I have to give them two of our workers and 50G. for this. Well, at least it reduces our unit cost by 4 gpt. We sell Monotheism to them for 750 g and 38 gpt. Have to make some money while we can.

Immediately revolt. We draw a 4 turn anachry.

IBT: Twelve Inca units move into our border.

Turn 6: Hmmn.. lets see. Sign a deal with Maya for MA against Inca. Let them fight a bit. Have to give them 500 G for it.

IBT: Maya and Inca slog it out. Inca gets wiped out. Now since Inca had a MPP with America maya and America is also at war with each other.

Turn 7: zzz

Turn 8: Ut seems Rine abd France is also at war. Way to go!

Turn 9: We are a Republic. Making +97 gpt and giving 10% lux. Start on a colloseum.

IBT: Rome and France sign peace.

Turn 10: America and Maya sign MA against Inca.

Turn 11: zzz

Turn 12 : zzz

Turn 13: zzz

Turn 14: zzz.

Turn 15: Finish collesum. France declares on the Inca. So there is a dogpile on Inca. Everyone is polite with us.


We can sign a deal with Maya for horses and iron for Incense. That would allow us to make quite a few horseman and MDI that can be later upgraded. I leave it to the next player. We have 2202 G in treasury and making +93 gpt now.

This game looks tough; I do not know how we can win this one. Maya is huge and so in France, our two nearest neighbours. I guess we have to get them to fight each other for us to have a chance.

I would stick to my plan for building until late industrial ages. :)

Got it. Play tonight.

I would start Sun Tzu. We will not get that but we will probably get Theology soon and switch the build. We will definitely get Sistine then.

Even if we miss it - no biggie - what else should we use the shields for? A couple of knights. That would not make much of a difference.

I am not completely sure which order we are playing in (Aggie you may want to make them a bit more consistant :lol: ), but go ahead Microbe. I am in feast mode at the moment and would probably take my full 48.


PS: My suggestion is to keep it how we are playing now:
Aggie
6thGenTexan
Betazed
Microbe
Greebley
Homeyg

Oh I'm sorry, I am now at the end of roster. I hope Aggie always remembers to update the first post. :)

Greebley it's yours now.

You can play if you want. I can't get to it tonight at all and you said you have time.

I don't mind.

I'd rather keep the roster to avoid more confusion. I'll probably play LK69 tonight, if not I may start a new game. Plenty other things to do. :)

Ok, I got it then. Will play tomorrow.

I'll update the first post!

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan
betazed
Greebley----- up
homeyg------ on deck
Microbe

Preturn:
Our pals the americans don't have Montheism. They do have iron.
Or as Betazed pointed out we can trade our Incense for both horses and Iron. I decide on the latter because I like Betazed idea of building upradable horses.

I trade Incense for iron, horses (they would throw in 2 gold but that makes it a non-per turn trade which is less good if the route breaks).

I MM the city to max food with 15 or more shields and switch to building a horse.

IBT: Zzz

330 AD: Upgrade all units. If we are keeping them they might as well be upgraded.

IBT: Horse->Horse

340 AD: Defend the incense and workers. The workers are connecting up another road with the Mayans to defend losing connection.

IBT: We get Engineering from the great library

350 AD: Zzz

IBT: The Americans demand Incense. I refuse and we are at war.
Horse->Trebuchet

360 AD: I ally the Romans vs the Americans so those two can fight it out.
I also switch to Trebuchets. That way we can bombard units before attacking.
As our city is both size 12 now and has excess shields for a Trebuchet every 2 turns, I maximize for gold (95 gpt)

IBT:

370 AD:

IBT: Trebuchet->Trebuchet

380 AD:

IBT:

390 AD:

IBT: Trebuchet->Trebuchet

400 AD: France has a spices to trade. I go for ROP and spices for incense. This allows us to lower our lux to 0 (warning: this includes War Happiness from America so be care you don't riot when the war ends or it goes away.
Our town is pulling in 111 commerse which is 71 after Maint and unit costs.

IBT: An american ship. I think we are ready for it.

410 AD: Zzz

IBT: Galley moves close enough to bombard.

420 AD: We redline the galley but have no galley to sink it with. I start one.

IBT: The galley starts to head home. That was underwhelming.

430 AD:

IBT: Inca and Mayan sign peace.
Galley->Horse

440 AD: I am going to guess that we are getting War Happiness from the Inca, so I keep the war going for now
Buy a worker from Rome and france.

IBT:

450 AD:

Notes:
I am stopping at 450 because I prefer the when the years end with xx50 or xx00 (and later xx25 and xx75). I don't have to calculate what turn I am on.

We are at war with two civs and can make peace with Incans. I didn't so we can run 0% lux.

We have:
6 Archer
2 horsemen
5 Pikemen
1 Galley
3 MDI (2 are regular)
3 Trebuchets

I haven't played an OCC before so I haven't a clue if we are doing ok or not.

Here is a picture of our mighty empire:

Note that I was roading squares we own to better be able to attack incoming units later on.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan
betazed
Greebley
homeyg------ up
Microbe------ on deck

homeyg, you are up!

homeyg is skipped.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan
betazed
Greebley
homeyg------ on deck
Microbe------ up

EDIT: sorry homeyg, my mistake. You clearly told us. I put you on deck...

got it................

preturn: As planned I'll just keep building.

Switch a tile from coast to plains we can make 20spt, but right now we are building horseman anyway.

(1)460AD: Since we have RoP with France, I send several horses to explore its territory.
(2)470AD: ZZZ
(3)480AD: Maya and France exchange Invention and Theology! I disband 3 archers.
(4)490AD: We get Invention and Theology. Not sure if we want to do this but I start min research on Printing Press.
(5)500AD:
(6)510AD: IBT Rome demands Theology, I tell him to go away. He backs off. Maya demands 100g. I cave. We are buying iron and horses from him.
(7)520AD:
(8)530AD: I sign RoP with Maya by 118g, and send horses to explore. He turns annoyed.
(9)540AD:
(10)550AD:

Isn't it a good idea to start a prebuild on the Knights Templar ASAP?

And we have 2770 gold? :eek: Well done :thumbsup: It's needed for future upgrades.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie-------- on deck
6thgentexan
betazed
Greebley
homeyg------ up
Microbe

Do we have anything to prebuild with? We can't use the Palace, that is for sure.

What about Sun Tzu, Leo or Sistine? ;)

Yeah. We can build those in 30 turns with 20spt.

We are paying close to 40gpt for unit. Maybe it's time for a wonder which we may not need. For denial purpose if nothing else. :)

In any case, I'd love to have those scientific wonders first.

The Knights templar gives us strong units. With these units we might even think about war! We have a lot of money AND income. I don't see why we couldn't use this wonder microbe.

Oh I agree with Knights Templar. I was just saying we could spend shields on wonders now instead of units. Badly expressed..

One problem with that. The AI has been building Sun Tzu for a while now. This means it is likely that we could lose the race to a Cascade. The problem is that if the cascade doesn't break, then we have a good chance of losing the race. If the cascade does break and all 3 are built, we have no prebuild.

While it is possible that the cascade would not include all 4 buildings, I don't think it is worth betting on as Feudalism has been out for a while.

The best chance I think it research Chivalry ourselves at 100% so we can switch but the AI's cannot. There is still a decent chance we would not get it, but it would definitely improve the odds.

The other method would be to spend some money and investigate cities. The problem with that is that we are at war with 2 nations. One city building a wonder is Washington. We can probably assume that one will beat us. Not sure on the Incans.

Greebley, I don't think the cascade will end. Invention is just out and AI will all switch to it if Sun Tzu's is built. I think AI will not switch to KT at that moment since Leo came out earlier (it's my observation).

So if we start prebuild, we'll get KT, assuming Chivalry is out within 30 turns.

I understand Greebley. This is a big risk. We could check the cities to see what the progress is. I agree with Chivalry at max (9 turns). I've seen it work many times before. It would be a real waste if we wouldn't get the Knight's Templar. We talked about it long ago.

@microbe: that won't work. Three three wonders are all equally expensive and they could all dissapear in a cascade, ending our prebuild. We always have the courthouse (5 turns prebuild).

Ya, I feel it is worthwhile if we go for Chivalry at full even though it is a risk.

We don't need the shields that badly even if we do lose them as we can only build more low end units at the moment. The other advantage to Chivalry at full is we can start building knights sooner which means we don't have the 120 gold upgrade cost.

[Edit: It might also be worth taking a look at the towns building wonders. I did this a little, and for example, the town of Veii may take to the end of the game to build anything. I think it had a single mine] If there are less than 4 "real" builds then we have it in the bag. The problem is though that even if there are 4 or more towns that are good, we don't know when the AI will get chivalry and switch.

I don't think we should research Chivalry. Someone must be doing it and I bet it will come out pretty soon. Maybe in 5 turns but definitely less than 10.

Then what's the risk if I'm wrong? Lose some shields. But I'd rather we lose shields than gold.

Just my opinion.

Guys, I'm back in town. Does that mean I play my turns now?

Yes :) We had a nice discussion about the Knight's Templar and Chivalry. I recommend reading it.

I'll have them posted by tomorrow! :)

One thing you miss in the whole discussion on cascading: SGLs.

It is true we don't mention SGL's, but I am totally unsure how we can handle that case. The SGL is totally random and unlikely event making it difficult to plan for.

I think we need to assume it won't happen, but then if some city gets a wonder early, then re-evaluate.

Turn 0: I investigated a couple foreign cities:

Sun Tzu's: France (Avignon) 17 turns; Rome (Veii) 129 turns; Maya (Cuello) 76 turns;
Sistine: Maya (Tikal) 38 turns;
Leo's: French (Rheims) 30 turns; Maya (Quirigua) 62 turns;

Since there doesn't seem to be any danger of a cascade, I began on the Sistine Chapel (29 turns). I started researching Chivalry at 100% for 9 turns.

Turn 1: Someone is yet to discover Chivalry. Nothing much else.

IBT: Our MA with the Romans ended but they did not contact me (Is there some reason why we are in fake wars with the Incan and the Americans?).

Turn 2: I end the MA with the Romans and sign peace with the Americans (I had to pay 120 gold); they turn cautious instead of furious. I sign peace with the Incans (I paid 80 gold). I discover that the French had dicovered Chivalry and I pay the Frech 529 gold for it. Switch Sistine to Knights Templar (13 turns). No one else is building it yet. Begin on Gunpowder.

IBT: I renew our iron horses deal with the Mayans (I give incense and 88 gold).

Turn 3: Berlin riots (forgot to micromanage; sorry). I make a scientist and a trade with the Incans for furs.

IBT: We learn Gundpowder from the Great Library (Maya and French had it). I begin on PP at 50% (20 turns).

Turn 4: I investigate Chichen Itza (it's building the KT in 19 turns). Our's comes in 12 turns. French are building it in 23 turns.

Turn 5: Nothing much.

Turn 6: Nothing much.

Turn 7: KT in 9 turns.

Turn 8: Nothing much. We are definately getting the KT.

Turn 9: Not much.

Turn 10: Not much. KT in 6 turns.

If we get the Knights Templar, we will enter the Golden Age (after Scientific Great Library this would be a military wonder). Any ideas what to do with it?

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie-------- up
6thgentexan-- on deck
betazed
Greebley
homeyg
Microbe

I would suggest making a run at Leo's but Rheims would be down to 14 turns. We could devote all our GA income to research and go for Shake's instead.

[lurk]Leo's is an awesome wonder even at your size...but to stay ahead the rest of the game you will need to go the education route. Try to grab the science wonders and shakey's.[/delurk]

I told you guys we didn't need to research Chivalry. We still wasted 2 turns of max income on it. Just be a little patient! :cry:

We want to get Copernicus, ToG and Shakespear, but they are all probably too far away.

Do we need to research at all? I'd at most do min research atm.

Berlin riots

Now you see the reason we were at war..

We still wasted 2 turns of max income on it. Just be a little patient! It isn't a total waste. Your price for a tech dropped based on how much research you put in to it.

If it was optimal is question I am going to avoid as I am not a player in this game.

I think the best way to handle Chivalry is to wait until the number of turns on the prebuild is 1 or 2 more than the time it would take to research the tech. This gives the AI some time to get the tech. If you can get Chivalry in 9 then starting to reseach at 10 turns on prebuild guarantees you get chivalry in time, but allows the AI time to research it. Once they do get it you can turn off research and see if the Great Library gives it to you. If you get to 1 turn on the prebuild then you buy it.

This all assumes that you know your prebuild isn't going to vanish. We did know this in this case since you investigated. You also have to watch out for Doc's Caveat - an SGL throws a monkey in the mix (ook!)

Note that I would start the research, because there is no guarantee that the AI will research Chivalry. It is highly likely, but I have seen games where Education was researched before chivalry and where chivalry has been delayed 20 odd turns. It is also possible that only 1 AI knows it so the library doesn't give it to you (in that case you can usually buy it) - just hope the AI doesn't declare war.

========================

MM note. We are at 0% lux with a scientist. This is slowing our prebuild down by a turn. I would raise Lux to 10% and MM to get the Templar dohickey in 5.

As Microbe stated, the wars were so we didn't have to go to 10% lux and spend the 10 odd gold on lux or hire a scientist and lose the shields and 6 odd gold we could be earning if we were working the square. War happiness can be a useful thing. There is some risk that Mayans or France would be drawn in of course, so stopping the war was not necessarily a bad thing.

IHT: I renew our lux deal with France and now get two luxuries for Incense (Spices and Furs). I cancel the ROP however.
Knights Templar in 5. We are going 50% science towards Printing Press. I raise it to 90%, because I don't like to go to min science after we invested in it already. We lose 38 gpt and have 1016 gold. PP in 8.

Turn 1 (660 AD) France and the Maya have Education.

IT: The Great Library has become obsolete.

turn 2-4 (670-690 AD) :sleep:

IT: America demands Chivalry and I refuse. They are annoyed, but don't declare war.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG10knightstemplar.jpg

We get the Knights Templare and enter our Golden Age. I first build the University.

Turn 5 (700 AD) :sleep:

IT: Rome finishes the Statue of Zeus!

Turn 6 (710 AD) :sleep:

IT: France and the Inca sign peace. France finishes Sun Tzu.

Turn 7 (720 AD) Science to 60%. PP still in 1.

IT: Printing Press comes in. University->Leo.

Turn 8 (730 AD) We have Printing Press at first and the other tribes haven't got a tech over us [party] France and the Maya have money and are willing to pay a maximum price for PP. So I wait for a tech to pop up, maybe longer. I go all out Banking (100% gives it in 9 turns). The ideal situation would be to have Banking or PP at monopoly.

IT: The ROP with the Maya is cancelled.

Turn 9 (740 AD) :sleep:

IT: The Maya start Copernicus. We get our first crusader.

Turn 10 (750 AD) France has Astronomy as well. I don't think that we have a shot at Copernicus and the Maya and France still want to pay max prices for PP. So I don't trade.

IT: America finishes Sistine.

Turn 11 (760 AD) :sleep:

Turn 12 (770 AD) I renew our incense for horses and iron deal. We need the Maya as trade partners imho.

Turn 13 (780 AD) We renew the wines deal with the Inca for 44 gold.

IT: The Maya finish Copernicus.

Turn 14 (790 AD) :sleep:

IT: We get our 2nd crusader.

Turn 15 (800 AD) Banking in 2. If we get it at first, I would sell this around instead of PP. Banking is probably one of the AI's next techs to research. I would keep PP to ourselves, while researching Democracy at max (until the moment has arrived that the AI appears to research it). We could get Shakes! Regarding selling techs: by checking every turn if the AI wants to pay full price we can see if they are researching it. The prices will drop when they have invested in it.

The French and Maya are still willing to pay full prices for PP.

I thought about disbanding the archers, but they upgrade to TOWs! We could have switched off research as well. I'd say that that would have been a valid option as well. But I don't think that max research is wrong.

I think max research on Democracy and FA is worth trying for. Shakespeares would be big if we can nab it. Getting shakespeares early would really help us.

If we do with that plan, building a few workers to merge in after we get it might work well. Just build a worker when we have max food.

Too bad we lose Copernicus. :sad:

microbe: we want to conquer the world, not fly to Space ;)

It looks like I'm up now but I need to be skipped. I'v got company in town and would not get a chance to play until Monday.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan--skipped
betazed------up
Greebley-----on deck?
homeyg
Microbe

Got it. Will play today.

IBT: French finish Leonardo. Damn! Mayans start JS Bach.

810 AD: PP to Maya for MT, 176G and 11Gpt. Not teh ideal but we will lose all the prebuild shields. JSBack due in 11 turns. Sell PP to Joan for 20Gpt.

820 AD: We get Banking. Start on Demo. Due in 12.

830 AD: zzz

840 AD:

850 AD: French starts Magellans.

860 AD: Tikal finishes JsBach. :mad: Ach a cascade. How can they finish it in 3 turns, otherwise!!!! Banking to France for Astronomy and 26gpt and 170G. Banking to Maya for Navigation 20g and 12 gpt. Switch production to Magellans Voyage. Due next turn.


870 AD: We get Magellans of course. Start on a bank.

880 AD: zzz

890 AD:

IBT: Maya demands Territory map and 47 gold. Eh! i back down and give it to the, We are making more moeny that thant from them now.

900 AD: Our GA ends. Demo is still due in 5 turns. I think we can make mucho $$$ and techs from trading that tech.

Sorry guys, :( I got hung up on not wasting those shields and had to take some suboptimal trading decisions. But we were supremely unlucky in not getting either of those wonders. They went to a cascade.

I will attach the save soon.

I didn't expect to get a wonder betazed.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan
betazed
Greebley-----on deck
homeyg------up
Microbe

Why did we want to build JS Bach in the first place? And Magallan's is useless to us. Why not switch to bank? Let the AI waste shields on it.

Yeah, I'm sorry that you got this legacy from me without explanation :( I'm not having the best of weeks (a lot to do, makes me lose concentration).

Why did we want to build JS Bach in the first place? And Magallan's is useless to us. Why not switch to bank? Let the AI waste shields on it.

I did not want to build JSBach. I only wanted to save the shields which otherwise would have been lost. Making a bank at that time would have wasted a ton of shields.

Magellan maybe useless to us but at least it gives us some culture.

I guess I could have accepted the shields as a sunk cost and carried on. Oh Well...

Whoa, I'm up again! I got it. I'll probably have the turns posted tonight.

Edit: No can do, I'll post them tomorrow.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to be skipped. I'm way too busy....

Edit: Or, could you give me another day? I'd definately be able to post them by tomorrow.

Another day is OK...

Okay, my turns were pretty lame, but here...

Turn 0: Everything looks good; press [enter].

IBT: Nothing much.

Turn 1: Nothing much. Bank in 3 turns, Democracy in 4.

IBT: Nothing much.

Turn 2: I find that Maya acquires Chemistry. I'll be able to get it when we learn Democracy.

IBT: Nothing much.

Turn 3: I can lower science to 70% and still get Democracy in 2. We now gain 41 gpt.

IBT: Berlin: Bank -> Knight

Turn 4: Democracy in 1; I can't lower science any further.

IBT: Finish researching Democracy. I don't revolt. I begin Free Artistry a 100%. Knights Templar produces a Crusader. I don't know what we are going to use as a prebuild to get Shakespeare's Theater, but....

Turn 5: Bad news. If we were planning to trade Democracy, the Mayans and the French both discovered it at the same time as us and now both have Chemistry.

IBT: Nothing much.

Turn 6: I think about buying Chemistry. I check with the Mayans and the French. The French are selling it cheaper, so I buy it for 651 gold and 38 gpt. I lower research to 70% to get Free Artistry in 14. We now gain 12 gpt.

IBT: Nothing much.

Turn 7: Nothing much.

IBT: Berlin: Knight -> Wealth. We lose our supply of wines.

Turn 8: I trade Inca Astronomy for Wines, World Map, and 1 gold. I raise science to 80% to get Free Artistry in 10 turns. We are losing 1 gpt.

IBT: Nothing much.

Turn 9: Nothing much.

IBT: Knights Templar produces Crusader. We are now losing 3 gpt; we get Free Artistry in 8 turns.

Turn 10: Nothing much.

My questions: What was the plan? Was I supposed to be researching Free Artistry? When are we planning to go to war and with who?

Free artistry was the plan indeed. We should switch to a prebuild within 4 turns. It also may be worth it not to sell this tech. I'd say that the first war can starts soonish. Hurting the Romans a bit by taking Hispalis. I really think that we should start our campaign with cavalry, go into higher gear with artillery and kill it off with panzers...I hope :)

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan
betazed
Greebley-----up?
homeyg
Microbe------on deck

Can we slip out a worker or two before starting the Shakes's pre-build?

Turn 6: I think about buying Chemistry. I check with the Mayans and the French. The French are selling it cheaper, so I buy it for 651 gold and 38 gpt. I lower research to 70% to get Free Artistry in 14. We now gain 12 gpt.


Did all AIs have Chemistry and Democracy at that time?

I would have waited. We may trade Democracy to any AI that just got Chemistry. Or we could do so when we get Free Artistry.

There was no compelling reason that we had to get Chemistry at that time. Plenty of chance for 2-fers..

My mistake...

I think I can play in the next 48 hours if you want me to take this Aggie. It may be tomorrow night.

[Edit: I did not get to this tonight. I will play it tomorrow however.]

That's OK Greebley.

Preturn:
Homeyg, minor MM tip - If you are producing wealth then MM for gold. You were working 2 3 gold squared when you could be working 4 gold squares.

On what to build: Upgrading a horse to knight costs 120 gold. If I change our build of wealth to build knights then I can build one in 4 turns. The wealth was gaining us 4 gpt. So for 4*4 = 16 gold I can disband a horse and build a knight. Therefore the knight is a better option.

You will find this true in general:
If you own any "antique" unit, then you should only be on wealth if you have a strong reason to (like getting a tech quicker). Disband the old units and build new.


There is one other thing to build: Since we are going for free artistry we can grow to size 20. If we had workers, then we could merge them in. So I am going to switch to a worker when the food box fills. I may be able to build a few before we start on the Wonder.

IBT: Some gpt from another civ runs out and we have to slow free artistry.
Metallurgy is now known by both France and Mayans. The two strongest civs are our neighbors. Yay! (not).
Berlin: Worker->Knight

1010 AD: Science lowered to 50% - Due in 12. I MM for food Disband 2 horse which I will try to rebuild.

IBT: Smith is started by French.

1020 AD: MM after growth back to size 12.

IBT: Smith is started by Mayans.

1030 AD: Unfortunately, one of those two Smith builds might Cascade to Shakespeares.

1040 AD:

IBT: We get another Crusader
Berlin: Knight->Worker (we will be at max again next turn).

1050 AD: MM town.

IBT: Maya declares war on Inca.

1060 AD: We lost another large chunk of change which will slow Free artistry even more. Annoying. I don't think wealth gives us enough to be worth switching to. I do get rid of the galley and a Trebuchet that we will have to rebuild. I also take Americas pitiful 12 gp - they are way behind in tech. MM town

IBT: Grow back again to size 12

1070 AD: I MM for gold to get Free Artistry in 7. I may even need to switch to wealth. I am trying to maintain 40% science. There is a 38 gpt outstanding deal that is no longer matched by incoming deals. Noone has gpt or gold to trade techs for.

1080 AD:

IBT: Knight->Wealth

1090 AD: I want to time switching to a courthouse to "prebuild" Shakespeares by a small amount. The courthouse should be in 1 when I get free artistry. Disband a Horse.

IBT: Build a Crusader

1100 AD: Disband a horse (Not in the town... starting prebuild and we can't build a wonder if I disband in town).
Courthouse in 5. Free artistry in 4 we have 34 gold and -9 gpt. There is some risk if someone demands gold from us.

IBT: The French start Shakespeares.

1110 AD: The only good news is that we get Free Artistry in 1. Not sure if we have a chance, but I am going to continue for now. MM for max shields.

IBT: Finish Free Artistry start Physics

1120 AD: Switch town to Shakespeares. The town of Cherborg is also building it. It is hard to tell if we or they will be faster. We have more shields and they have a discount. I think we are better. There is also the concern of a Cascade from Smiths. I think I will run Min science and build up some cash to see if I want to investigate the city. Mayans have Free artistry but are not yet building the wonder. This also means we can't trade FA for anything either. Set science to 0.

IBT: Mayans start up Shakespeares as well.

1030 AD: Ok I mined two grasslands putting us at -2 food. We can exchange food in our granary for shields by switching between mined and irrigated grassland. We are at +26 shields now and will have to drop down to 24 as we run out of food. Don't let us drop in size whatever you do.

IBT:

1040 AD:

IBT:

1050 AD:

Notes:
Shakespeares - The race is definitely on. We are at 26 shields for the next 10 turns and then have to drop to 24 for the final 3. Cherbourg is size 8 which I think means they cannot compete unless they have a GA. A second concern is one of the Smith builds cascading to shakespeares. Lyons has several mountains and the Mayans are building it in their capitol. I think we are ok there as they need to get to 600 (-20%) shields before building it while we only need 450 and we didn't start that long after they did.

All in all it will be close I am guessing we win by a turn or two.. We should discuss if we want to spend cash investigating a city or two. I feel Lyons/Chichen are the bigger threats as they started earliest.

This is obvious but: Make sure you don't let our capitol starve :D

An SGL may be the biggest risk.

If we fail to get Shakespeares then disband the two workers. If we do get it then merge them in and MM for growth.

Mayans are getting bigger. This may become a concern.

Actually, when running wealth, you should MM for shields. The amount of gold produced is spt/4 rounded down or spt/2 after you discover economics.

If we gain +1 gold with markets that is either 1 or 2 gold. This is equivalent to 4 to 8 shields (2 to 4 with economy). Wouldn't I always want to go for the gold? The shields can only win in the rarest of circumstances (It must make a difference of at least 3 shields vs 1 gold you have Economy and no bank and the rounding works out (1/4 the time?). If you have a bank too then the gold always ties or wins. Note that 6 shields vs 2 gold is alway a tie with markets and a loss if there is a bank.

I am not sure what part corruption would play - you would then have to see if the gold or shields are corrupted. This is the capitol though.

I usually don't MM to this level, it is simpler just to go for the gold. MMing more would only gain a gold piece.

----------------------------------------
The one case that you might want to MM for shields is if the science rate is very high and you need the gold badly. In that case you are generally sacrificing beakers for gold. This is still a net loss on beakers+gold though.

I see what you're saying. I was looking on the smaller scale, rather than the big picture, which shows that MMing for gold will give you more gold than MMing for shields and building wealth.

preturn: I don't know what to do. :) Since we are building a wonder, I don't think we want a war, although it would be good to extort some tech from France. Oh well..

(1)1160AD: I regenotiate incense deal with France and get furs+spices+23gpt.

(2)1170AD: America has one extra saltpeter! So I ship Chemistry to it for Saltpeter+WM+12g. Yeah we cannot really build units that use this resource, but I just want someone to get either Physics or Metallury so we can do a 2-fer.

I then give Chemistry to Rome and Inca for 4g too.

(3)1180AD: zzz

IBT we lose wines and we have to raise lux to 10.

(4)1190AD: zzz

(5)1200AD: Rome gets Democracy.

(6)1210AD: zzz

(7)1220AD: Inca now is an OCC on an island.

IBT Maya and Inca make peace.

(8)1230AD: zzz

(9)1240AD: We can get -1fpt and Shakespear still in 4 turns, but we only have 2 food reserve..

IBT Maya and France start Newtons. We cannot get it..

(10)1250AD: IBT Maya demands TM+74g, and I cave. :( Why is it furious with us?

(11)1255AD: We can stop starving and still get Shakespear in 2 turns!

(12)1260AD:

IBT We get Shakespear.

(13)1265AD: I merge two workers and we can build knights every 3 turns.

I try an immediate steal on France and we succeed by about 1066g. I pick Metallury because we'll need cannons and cavs. I then upgrade two trebs to cannons.

(14)1270AD: ZZZ

(15)1275AD: We need a discussion.

The easiest target is France. It isn't really selling us any resources, and its only saltpeter is close to us, so we'll be fighting leftover cavs. We can then try to push as far as possible and hopefully get 2 techs. But to do that we either need a lot of cannons, or get Military Tradition first, which we can research ourselves in 10 turns.

The problem with hitting France is that then Maya will be even stronger. So if we can make it, I'd prefer to ally with France against Maya. However, we then lose our horses and iron. France has an extra iron which we may be able to buy, but we really need horses.

Since Maya is bigger now, I expect we can get more gpt from it if we renegotiate the incense deal.
We are 320g making 130gpt.

So we did nab Shakespeares. Very cool!

I agree the decision on who to attack is tricky and something to discuss. I really think we need to hit the mayans with frances help. I have seen too many AI's get too far ahead to feel comfortable leaving them be.

However France has all 3 needed resources right outside our doorstep. Maybe a limited war with France and then Ally with them against the Mayans?

Keeping the resources free of towns will be another difficult issue.

Good to see that we got Shakespeare :)

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie--------up
6thgentexan--on deck
betazed------out until July 7th
Greebley
homeyg
Microbe

The Maya appear to have musket for defense, but both them and France are in the IA. We are starting to lose ground and that is worrying. We are able to get Military Tradition and I think that we need it. Cavalry should be the unit to attack with imho.

The Maya are too big to ignore. I think that we have to build up a decent military, bite the bullit and go for the Maya, before they get steam and railroads everywhere. Taking the vital resources from France will make the Maya only stronger. We need France to help us vs the biggest foe of the planet.

Any chance of some maps for us lurkers? :) You had a small holding map at 450 AD, and last world map is 1250 BC :P

I will be out from tomorrow and only be back on 7th July. So please skip me here and in Ag12 during this time. I will be out photographing the birds and the bees. :)

@microbe: of course the same goes for M1C1 sg too.

Aggie, I agree with you on the Mayans. The only reason I mention the alternative is the closeness of the resources to our border. This picture shows what I mean:

I have to make a crucial decision now. Should I buy Military Tradition from France or the Maya? The other civs are backward. I vote for France. The Maya are too strong as it is.

EDIT: I'm going to buy the tech from the French.

IHT: I see that we can't possibly go to war with the Maya at this point. We need at least 10 cavalry units for a first strike. I buy Military Tradition from France for 80 gpt. Then I upgrade 3 knights for 90 gold.

Turn 1 (1275 AD) Horseman upgraded to Cavalry.

Turn 2 (1280 AD) Rome gives us a worker for Free Artistry. Horseman upgraded to cavalry.

IT: Cavalry->cavalry.

Turn 3 (1290 AD) :sleep:

IT: The Maya finish Newton.

Turn 4, 5 (1295, 1300 AD) Horseman upgraded to Cavalry.

IT: Cavalry->cavalry.

Turn 6 (1305 AD) The MPP option appears. But France and the Maya have rifles :(

Turn 7 (1310 AD) I renew the saltpeter deal with America for Free Artistry. Two pikes are upgraded to muskets.

IT: The Maya finish Smith!

Turn 8, 9 (1315, 1320 AD) :sleep:

IT: cavalry->cavalry.

Turn 10-15 (1325-1350 AD) :sleep:

I don't know, I wanted to attack but got scared :( I guess that we need more cavalry (16?) to take out two Mayan cities. We can't be pleased with only one, so we should continue to build up military. I also have my doubts if it is wise to MA with the French vs the Mya. We then have to face this foe for 20 turns.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan--up
betazed------out until July 7th
Greebley-----on deck
homeyg
Microbe

It is a tough decision.

MA Pro: We will face much fewer units so our units will be more effective.

MA Con: It locks us in a long war with the only one we know about that can supply us the resources for Cav.

Can someone else get us horses? We don't know as that resource won't show up unless we cancel our current horse deal. If when we cancel the deal we can get horses from some other Civ then I am in favor of the 20 turn war. We want to try to really damage the Mayans. As we have only 1 city to defend, I don't think we can lose even if things go badly.

If we can't get horses from anyone then the situation is more tricky. Without French support we have to face the full brunt of Mayan forces and may not be able to advance and lose our Cav. It might be better in that case to let the Mayans come to us to kill the initial assault so their counters don't decimate our Cavalry (this may not work if they can get to our city and attack in a single turn (we can plant forests to slow them.

Also we need to protect our incense that are used in trades not with the Mayans.

I think that Greebley is right. We should go for a 20 turn war with the help of the French. But this surely requires more cavalry than we have now. We must take out two towns, defended by rifles. The ugly thing about it is that we need 3 turns per cavalry. That's 18 for 6 cavalry. Too long?

I'm afraid that the Maya are the only ones to provide us horses. The other tribes only have one each.

Next player: please MM the city to get cavalry one turn earlier!!

Agreed. if we go to war with Maya we must have an MA. With MA we have to last 20 turns. But without MA we have a very good probability of being overrunn in the first few turns itself.

How many muskets do we have for defense?

Our military. You can't see the 2 archers.

I think we have few Pike that are upgradable. We didn't have many however, IIRC. [Edit: Cross-post we have 4]

Do the Mayans have coal (i.e. if you trade maps are they railing?)

If not, I would be inclined to build some back up units like cannon and muskets.

[Edit: nm ]

We are stronger than America, Rome and the Inca (the other OCC tribe). Naturally we are weak vs France and the Maya.

The following irony just occurred to me. We are keeping 2 elite archers so we can leader fish... Except what the heck are we going to use a leader for? An extra cavalry? I would upgrade those puppies into longbow which might be marginally useful. I suppose if we do get a leader then we can let it sit in the capitol until we get Industrializion This seems likely enough to me that we still don't need to leader fish - at least not with elite archers. Let the cavalry do the fishing.

I see it. I'll look to night to add some comments.

America has a second sourse of Iron but are providing it to someone else. The only horse I see on our side of the world in the one across the french border. We have no chance unless we get everyone against the Mayans. I'll complete our wall on the east first so they will have to travel through French land, by boat or through our troops fortified in Fortresses. Now is the time for war. Any last words since I will not play until late Friday or Saturday?

I don't think that America, Rome and the Inca will play an important role in the war vs the Maya. Getting France behind us is vital, but I expect that the next player will have to do it. I hope I'm wrong though.

6thgentexan, what's the status?

1350-0 Spend 120 upgradeing our 2 archers. Start working on last 2 fortresses.

1355-1 start building Barricades,

1360-2 not much.

1365-3 produce a cavalry.

IBT The French start Sufferage.

1370-4 Buy Physics from Ceasar for 68GPT and 170g. Roman map shows railroads in Mayan territory. Abe has Economics but nothing else. Time to take the plunge. We have 11 Cavalry with one more in production. Lets see how long we keep them alive. Smoke-Jaguar is smoking somthing and wants 5GPT to stay at peace. NO. Get Joan to bring iron to our party for 52GPT.

IBT Joan cancels the Furs/Spices/23GPT for incense deal. Have to trade the 23GPT for 66g and a WM. That is all she had to give. Lose two crusaders and a Musket to one defeated Mayan Cavlary. Rove and Maya decide to imbargo our trade. That should include the GPT payments we are making to Rome. I have half a mind to go remove Hispalis from our border.

1375-5 Produce a Crusader. We are now losing 7GPT. Kill two cavalry.

IBT Lose 3 Crusaders and a Calvary.

1380-6 Kill one calvary. we are back to positive income.

IBT France gets America in on the Mayan party. Lose one more Crusader.

1385-7 Produce our last cavalry for a while and start on Muskets. Abe got Physics from Joan. Caesar now has Magnetism.

IBT America declares on Rome.

1390-8 move troops around and kill a Mayan logbow with the wrong cavalry. May sacrifice a longbow and crusader to save him.

IBT Rome give up 68GPT and joins Smkey against us. Rome also declares on the French. Lose all three troops. Lose a crusader on the West end of our wall. Retreat 3 cavalry but they get away.

1395-9 Kill 2 cavalry.

IBT Crusader fortified in a barricade loses to a longbow. Kill a second longbow.

1400-10 Crusader and Musket. Kill two longbows and a pike. Upgrade the last Pike to musket.

Slaves are building Barricades as fast as they can. Most Mayan cavalry are heading north. After attacking our east wall, the only units I've seen are heading to the French Iron or farther north. There are 5-6 vet cavalries available to make a run a Hispalis now. I've been moving our 2 cannons back and forth our walls to help pick off close units.

Net loss of 7 crusaders and an longbow for 6 cavalry, 3 longbow and a pike.

The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG10-1400AD.SAV)

Well, this is it. Let's see what we can do. Our military is very weak, but something needs to be done...

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan
betazed------out until July 7th, on deck?
Greebley-----up
homeyg
Microbe

Net loss of 7 crusaders and an longbow for 6 cavalry, 3 longbow and a pike

The casualty is too high.

We should have fortified musket in the barricades. Crusaders are *offensive* units.

At first, Smokey was sending abour 4-5 cavalry per turn but none attacked in hte last 2 turns. They may be healing at the moment.
I would remove Hispalis first. Then start moving our cavalry to take some of the coastal cities from Smokey.

I wonder if we have cavalry left after the attack of Hispalis. We need the French horses badly imho. We need more cavalry.

We can get horses from France for 10 gpt. Seems well worth it.

I got it. I hope to be able to play today or tomorrow.

I did not check the last turn. They may have captured some of the Mayan horses.

Preturn: Purchase Horses from france for 10 gpt.

Wake up 3 cavalry. The first two attack the muskets in Hisapolis and destroy them - the city is razed without loss. The last captures a roman worker. That was easy. If the city had been guarded by rifles, I probably wouldn't have attacked...

I ally the Americans against the Romans for 6 gold. This way even if the Mayan ally them against us they will be to busy to do much.

IBT: The Americans tell us to leave so we get a ROP Instead.

One of our outposts is attacked. We lose a Musket and nearly a Crusader.

1405 AD: I don't see how we can attack... We are guarding way too many squares. I start building a forest on one of them.

IBT: We lose our supply of Saltpeter.

1410 AD: I rebuy our Saltpeter supply for 16 gpt from America.

IBT: No attacks.

1415 AD: Pillage one of our forts so I don't have to guard it anymore.

1420 AD: One of our Hill forts is attacked. We lose the Crusader, the Cav retreats and only a badly injured MDI is left alive.
Cleaning out some of the ilk around our town I get a leader. I rush a courthouse which is switched to a cavalry.

IBT: Inca and France Ally vs Maya and Rome

1425 AD: The Mayans pick off another Crusader. I destroy another outpost on the forested square so I can move off it. The ideas is to let the enemy use that square to try to access our capitol and I can pick off troops as they do so.

I really have no idea how I am to hold this defensive line and do anything. I need too many troops per square so I am tying up tons of resources only to get picked off at poor odds. I am very tempted to abandon the whole thing excepting the Incense squares I need, but then the enemy gets the defensive forts. I hate destroying forts that we went through incredible effort to put in place, but feel totally at loss how not to just sit there and be a punching bag for the Mayans. This is essentially all I have accomplished so far.

I am also irrigating our lands so that we can grow to size 20.

1430-1450 AD: Kill goodly number of Mayan units, but some of our own. The Mayans don't seem to have Cav anymore which is greatly helping... Especially as I have destroyed the improvements next to our lands for the most part.

Notes:
Our biggest lack is cannon. We can't bombard rifles before attacking them so are losing many more units than we would with a nice cannon stack. I built some Muskets and Cav at first, but now we really need the Cannon especially since the Mayans no longer seem to have Cavalry.

I feel bad that I was totally unable to do anything with the position given to me, other than fighting a war of attrition that I was slowly losing. I eventually "gave up" and started trying to convert it to the AW scenarios I am more familiar with. For that we need 8 more cannon, Muskets to guard the squares we are trying to hold, and then finally Cavalry. Otherwise the losses seemed too high. As units approach, bombard them with the cannon and then attack them with the cav to finish them off. The only way I know to go on the offensive would be to abandon all squares; move the troops back to the capitol; and then attack with troops not needed for defense.The problem with this is we have outstanding incense deals so cannot abandon the incense squares to do this, and it probably wouldn't work as all our squares would be pillaged so we would have no production. With Cannon we can drive the kill ratio from 3 of theirs killed to one of ours during my turn, to 10 of theirs to one of ours. If anyone has thoughts on how I could have played better, then speak up. I was at a loss.

Alternatively, we can end the wars when our MA expire. Buy our way to the industrial age, and get steam and factories so we can build units quickly.

I switched most of our squares to Max growth to get to size 20. We couldn't even use all the plains we had as too many were mined anyway.

Feel free to reroad and rebuild the defenses on the empty forest square. It was made when there were cavalry to allow the Cavalry to approach our capitol to be slaughtered by our troops rather than attacking our defenses like they were doing. Since they only have speed 1 troops now we could rebuild the road and defenses. Our workers aren't doing anything else.

Once our city hits size 20 replace the mines to get to 0 food. We will then have Max shields until RR.

The only really good news is that we have horses from France and Saltpeter from America. Make sure to help france defend its sources.

Here is a picture of our current empire:

So what now? We aren't able to hurt the Maya in this war. Tbh I think that the only chance was in the first turn of the war, razing two cities in a blitz attack. Once they get their lands railroaded, then I think that we are in trouble. Especially the first turn of a next war will be hard to resist.

What should our plan be now? Should we stay at war with the Maya, with the rest of the world as our allies? It does sounds like a good way to keep them under control. I fear that they will only grow stronger when at peace and in Democracy. Note that the biggest gain we got from this war is that the Maya are in anarchy now!

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan
betazed------out until July 7th
Greebley
homeyg------up
Microbe------on deck

Greebley, why did you plant a Forrest to stop the Mayan Cavs? A barricade would have done the trick as well, without destroying the road/ irrigation.

I guess I haven't tried barricades. How do they work?

Barricades are a really cool thing. You hardly ever get to use them, but sometimes they're great.
The key feature is: Any unit that enters a Barricade tile outside that Civ's borders looses all Movement points. The owner of the tile gets no penalty. Note the enemy unit should get the def bonus.

They are absolutely the way to go for what you planted the forest: Prevent enemy fast movers to deeply enter your territory by stopping them on a open tile.

A good strategic use:

Map lineup is Civ A - You - Civ B, usual stretched landmass, pretty short borders.
It's IA, your territory is railed. You want to declare on A, but don't know for sure if B won't join against you. You could defend against both, but of course, you want to use as many units against A in the first turn.

Solution: Barricades along your entire border with B, a few defenders on high ground tiles. Now, you can move everything else against A, since B is completely prevented from penetrating deep (and this even works against Conquistadors). If B declares, you can move enough units back.

I got it, I'll play sometime today.

Thanks for the explanation Doc. I may have ripped up 6thGen's Barracades out of ignorance - I was thinking we had forts that would just defend the enemy units. Sorry about that team.

----------------------------------------
First off we probably want to continue the war at least until our MA runs out and probably until the horses (and Saltpeter?) deals can be cancelled which is 10 turns from now.

At that point I see two options:
1) Go for peace to get key techs before fighting again
- We could end the war with attacks on near Mayan cities to both weaken them and to reduce our high unit costs. (disband if necessary).
2) Continue the war and unit building.
- Build Cannon so we lose few units
- Build up a task force and use it to take out cities. Build up again when we need to.


For 1, I think getting to the Industrial age would really help us. Steam or Nationalism both would be wins for us. We are currently falling further and further behind in tech.

The problem with above is that we are paying gpt for our resources, and our unit costs are high. The techs are likely too expensive while at war. We would need to lower both which means peace.

Keeping the Mayan at war may very well get us somewhere eventually. If we get 10+ cannon, we can do so with little loss to ourselves as we bombard the rifles down first. After the cannon we can continue to build units; we will eventually have no cash but probably can start risking units to reprisals and take out Mayan cities one by one (If we start running out of cash we send our Cav in to attack and destroy a city - we lose some cav that gives us positive cash again allowing us to build more cav, etc).

----------------

I really don't know what option would be more effective. My feeling is we should try 2 and see if we can get an SOD to take Mayan cities. We will fall further behind in tech. If we see Infantry we may want to re-evaluate.

[Edit: So for the immediate future, Homeyg, I think you should continue the war as best you can while we have active resource deals.]

I build the Barricades for the added defense as we were manning the walls. I was thinking we do not want anyone in our territory. My vote is to keep the war going. I do not think we can afford to wait. I'd build cavs while we have horses then switch to cannons. It will be slow but we need to start and stay at war. I'd rather lose by conquest than by space.

Keeping the Mayan at war may very well get us somewhere eventually. If we get 10+ cannon, we can do so with little loss to ourselves as we bombard the rifles down first. After the cannon we can continue to build units; we will eventually have no cash but probably can start risking units to reprisals and take out Mayan cities one by one (If we start running out of cash we send our Cav in to attack and destroy a city - we lose some cav that gives us positive cash again allowing us to build more cav, etc).

This is my point of view as well. The Mayas are already losing momentum.

[Edit: So for the immediate future, Homeyg, I think you should continue the war as best you can while we have active resource deals.]

Will do!! But what's the plan for when the MAs run out?

There seems to be a majority for continuing the war and thus weakening the AI. But it all depends on how bad we are hurt when that moment arrives. We should do fine if you follow the suggestions of Greebley, one of this SG's AW experts :)

Turn 0: I see I could buy Magnetism from the Americans for Incense, 17 gpt, 582 gold, and a world map. I go ahead and do it; we'll still have enough to support the to-be-built cannons, plus our MA with France (which requires us to pay) is ending soon. I go to next turn.

IBT: America and Rome sign peace treaty. Some Mayan rifles start to retreat, but fresh ones march in to take their place. Berlin: cannon -> cannon.

Turn 1: I contact Rome. I sign peace with them; they pay 4 gold and both of their maps. I fire all 3 cannons at a rifle attempting to sneak past our forts and into our territory; all 3 fail. I send a healed 5/5 cavalry to destroy that single rifle; he succeeds, losing 3 hp. I retreat him to the fortess. Capital is growing without waste, so I don't change any improved tiles. I fortify all workers in Berlin. Trade WMs with the French and sign a ROP with them. I send a Cavalry on recon into their (France's) territory to see if they have infantry yet. Results come back negative. That's good. We can't be that far behind.

IBT: I witness (with the recon cavalry) a French longbow destroy a Mayan rifle from across a river producing a leader without losing a single HP. Then (after more troop movements), the Mayans attack that same longbow with a rifle and lose. The longbow was soon taken out, but I'd have to say that that one longbow had some good luck that turn. The Mayans are in the process of retreating most of the rifles.

Turn 2: I redline a rifle attempting to sneak into our territory (again!) and attack with a 5/5 cavalry. The cavalry won, losing 1 hp. I mine sugar next to Berlin (size 17). It now grows without waste and produces 25 shield. I returned damaged 2/5 cavalry from last turn to Berlin and I return recon cavalry back to one of the fortresses.

IBT: Maya sends in some more rifles and longbows. Berlin: cannon -> cannon.

Turn 3: I bombard stack consisting of 4 rifles, 1 MI, and 1 longbow with four cannons. 2 cannons hit. I attack the stack (on top is a 4/4 rifle) with a 5/5 cavalry. I don't want them to break through the fortresses and barricades. Then we will never be able to get them out. Cavalry is redlined and it retreats, bringing the rifle down to 2 hp. I attack the last 4/4 rifle in the stack (the rest are damaged) with another 5/5 cavalry. Good news, the cavalry defeats the 4/4 rifle losing 1 hp and it creates a leader! I'm going to save the leader for later (to create an army). I don't want to waste it on a cavalry. I attack a 3/4 rifle (still working on the same stack) with a 4/5 cavalry and the rifle goes down. The cavalry stays at 4/5. I attack another 3/4 rifle with a 5/5 cavalry and the rifle goes down again, without the cavalry losing any hp. I attack a 2/4 rifle with Kamikazee Karl and the rifle goes down, our cavalry only losing 1 hp. I wake a 4/4 cavalry from a barricade and attack the MI in the stack (all of the rifle have been destroyed). Our cavalry was redlined, but it still won. The last unit in that stack is a longbow. There is also another longbow next to him. I attack longbow #1 with a 4/4 cavalry and it is redlined and retreats. The longbow only lost 1 hp. I wake another 4/4 cavalry from Berlin and finish the longbow off, not losing any hp and upgrading to elite. Use a 3/3 MI to finish off last longbow. It loses 1 hp and upgrades to veteran. I return all damaged cavalry to Berlin (totaling to 7 cavalry). I check diplomacy one last time: our MA with France expires in 1 turn.

IBT: We lose our MI to a Mayan longbow.

Turn 4: I bombard the longbow with 1 cannon to get it down to 1 hp and I attack it with a 5/5 cavalry fortified in the southeast fortress (near where all of the action took place last turn. I win, not losing any hp. Move remaining cannons to the north. I attack a 3/3 Mayan rifleman in French territory with a 5/5 cavalry. Cavalry becomes redlined but still wins. The rifle was out of the bombard and movement range of our cannons.

IBT: Trade embargo against us between Rome and Maya ends. Rome and Maya sign a trade embargo angainst us again? A rifle and two longbows challenge my mighty cannon and cavalry army by moving next to the southeast fortress. Berlin produces a crusader and a cannon. I begin on another one.

Turn 5: I bomb all three units with all 5 cannons. Rifle loses 1 hp and a adjacent longbow loses 1 hp. I attack the adjacent longbow with our newly produced crusader, losing 2 hp. 5/5 cavalry attacks 3/4 rifle, losing 3 hp. Another 5/5 cavalry attacks next longbow, losing 2 hp. We have not lost a single cavalry yet! Send a damaged cavalry back to Berlin. I end the MA with France. Stupid move! They don't have an extra source of Iron atm. But now I can buy ToG from the Americans and get into the Industrial Age for 60 gpt, 112 gold, and a WM. Our free tech is Medicine. I accidently clicked in the wrong spot trying to press the Diplomacy button for the second time and I go to the next turn. However the French don't have Medicine. My mistake.

IBT: Maya and France sign peace treaty. Our crusader is lost to advancing Mayan rifles.

Turn 6: I immediately open diplo window and sign peace with the Mayans. They pay 320 gold for peace. Wow! The French offer the most for Medicine (for the first trade to get rid of the monopoly) which is Steam Power, Economics, World Map, 21 gpt, and 545 gold. The next went to America for 11 gpt, 543 gold, and world map. I trade Maya Medicine, 1268 gold and a World Map for Industrialization. No more trades are available but France and Maya have the Corporation and the French have Electricity. We now gain 46 gpt and have 154 gold. We, of course, have no coal and are without iron at the moment. I fortify all units.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to stop here because my damn sister is whining about getting on the computer and I have no choice but letting her. I have no time for comments. Good luck to the next person on getting us more caught up in tech that we already are. homeyg out!

The Maya are already railroading their lands. I guess that we might just as well buy the coal from France now. I would have preferred a continuing war, but at least we got back in the tech race. It looks to me that we have to go for artillery now.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie---------on deck
6thgentexan
betazed------out until July 7th
Greebley
homeyg
Microbe------up

I agree on artillery. Lets go for Rep Parts. and then try again on our war efforts.

[Edit: One other thing. Unit costs are about 1/2 in Democracy vs Republic (for an OCC). Do we want to switch? My biggest concern is that we would have to switch back when the serious wars started. My gut feel is it is not worth it, but I thought I would see what others thought. If we were religious, I think it would be worth going for. ]

I'll play tonight.

Greebley, despite the fact that I think that the anarchy period would be short, I think it would be unwise to switch to Democracy. Indeed a good suggsestion for a religious civ. But I'm sure we would have switched there anyway, to speed up the workers.

preturn: I can buy coal from France with 8gpt+1g, but we also need iron for railroading, so I send workers over there to connect it.

Lower lux to 0.

IBT French workers get to the iron first. Cannon->musket.

(1)1485AD: America suddenly has a lot of money, so I sell Steam to it for WM+43gpt+55g. It has its own coal. We are making +109gpt.

(2)1490AD: I buy iron and coal from France with 23gpt+2g.

IBT Inca and Maya make peace.

(3)1495AD: I rush factory with our leader.

IBT Inca demands Metallury, I refuse, he backs down.

(4)1500AD: Start coal plant.

(5)1505AD: I sell Steam to Rome for WM+15g+3 workers.

IBT France and Rome make peace. France starts Universal Suffrage.

(6)1510AD: America has Nationalism but lacks Industrialization, but it wouldn't trade. Maya has Electricity now.

(7)1515AD: ZZZ

(8)1520AD: ZZZ

(9)1525AD: ZZZ

(10)1530AD: ZZZ

(11)1535AD: ZZZ

(12)1540AD: ZZZ

(13)1545AD:

IBT France starts ToE!!

(14)1550AD: ZZZ

Don't know what to do. Seems we are lack of strategy here. We actually can build Suffrage in 12 turns and we'll get it for sure, as only France started it at the beginning of my turns, but we really only want ToE, and we have to get Electricity+Sci Method. AI wouldn't accept our gpt payment for that so we have to save more money. Stealing is risky but if no other method we'd have to try.

I almost finished railroading. After that we should clean up the pollution or optimize mines/food.

Maybe we should put a scientist on Sanitation?

I don't know about that scientist, we could discuss it of course. But shouldn't we put it on ironclads? This tech is largely ignored by the AI (rightly so, but we can trade for it).

I don't know about stealing techs. This is indeed very risky.

I don't know about that scientist, we could discuss it of course. But shouldn't we put it on ironclads? This tech is largely ignored by the AI (rightly so, but we can trade for it).

I've seen AI research ironclads pretty fast. Check MIC1 for example.

My guess is that the AI will have both in 50 turns. Since we actually have to give up production for the scientist (we can to MM our town to size 20 with 0 extra food & everyone working) I am unsure either is worth it. Only if the extra production makes no difference for any of our builds - then we can go to size 21 with 0 extra food by irrigating a tile.

If we do the above we want to clean up pollution instantly or we will lose food over time. If we do start losing food we can irrigate to rebuild the food store and then mine when we are near max food in the ganary.

If we have an odd amount of food working all 20 squares then we want to alternate between growing and shrinking by irrigating and mining a square.

I think we should go for Rep Parts over all other tech. Once we have artillery, we should go on the offensive. Getting TOE is excellent for trade, but gets us no closer to the conquest win. [Edit: Actually that isn't true since we can get Rep Parts with TOE - it is just a riskier way to get RP than simply going for it straight and seems mostly for denial purposes. I think TOE is a red-herring that lures us from our real goal].

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie---------up
6thgentexan--on deck
betazed
Greebley
homeyg
Microbe

IHT: I know that we are in a difficult spot for a conquest win, but I will stick to our plan to go for Replaceable Parts. I will constantly check if there is a trade option somewhere though:

I trade America incense for 10 gpt and 16 gold. Next I renegotiate the saltpeter deal with Abe. Instead of 16 gpt we now pay 170 gold. France gives us 430 gold extra for our lux for 2 lux deal. We also only have to pay 75 gold for horses (instead of 10 gpt.

IT: The Maya start US.

Turn 1 (1555 AD) Nothing much...

IT: Our ROP with France ends.

Turn 2, 3 (1560, 1565 AD) Polution cleanup.

IT: Inca and Rome sign peace.

Turn 4 (1570 AD) We live in dangerous times and I'm quite mad. So I try to carefully steal Electricity from the Maya. I succeed for 2071 gold. I now buy Scientific Method from France for 123 gpt. We should have ToE in 4...

IT: The trade embargo between Rome and the Maya vs us ends.

Turn 5-7 (1575-1585 AD) :sleep:

IT:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG10-ToE.jpg

We finish ToE and I choose Atomic Theory and Electronics. Because France already knows Rep Parts :)

Turn 8 (1590 AD) We get Corporation, Replaceable Parts and 200 gold for Atomic Theory from France. I get Refining for Atomic Theory from the Maya. I also sell Electronics, for Steel, Nationalism and 700 gold to France.

We can only buy rubber from the Maya (in the future that is). They don't have Replaceable Parts and Electronics.

I decide NOT to sell Electronics anything to the Maya. We may be ready for a next war in 10 turns or so...

I upgrade 6 cannons and switch the city to Stock Exchange. We may want a hydro plant after that and then only artillery.

IT: I renew the iron/coal deal with France for 24 gpt. One gpt more. France starts Hoover.

Turn 9 (1595 AD) We are level in techs, but would like to have Espionage. Maya lack Replaceable Parts and Electronics.

Turn 10 (1600 AD) I stop here. 10 turns only, but we may have a lot to discuss.

I vote for:
-Stock Exchange
-Hydro Plant
-Artillery (up to 20)
-New war vs the Maya, with the world beside us.

The world now:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG10-1600ADworld.jpg

Looks good. :goodjob: I too vote for Stock Exchange and Hydro plant and from them on just artillery (and not just 20 but more of them :) ). Artillery will be the key to taking down the Mayas.

Yes, I know. We certainly can use more than 20 artillery. I was thinking 20, as a minimum to start the wars. We can and must also upgrade our muskets to rifles.

By the way: we are only 3 techs from our UU. But sadly rubber is needed, only to be traded by the Maya...

Very nice Aggie! That is definitely the best way to get Rep Parts :goodjob:

With artillery we may be able to take the rubber before 3 techs pass us by... Depends where it is located of course.

Is stock, Hydro better than Hydro, Stock? The advantage of the latter is that we start building artillery earlier as the Hydro Plant will speed the stock exchange, We trade gold for shields rather than visa-versa, but I think I like that better. [Edit: Especially since your tech coup ]

The rubber is far away. Both Maya sources are in the NE peninsula the continent. The French source is also in the north. The Hydro plant is only meant to replace the coal plant, which gives pollution. I had to clean up a lot of that during my turns.

EDIT:

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan--up
betazed------on deck
Greebley
homeyg
Microbe

Ah, that makes sense. Ya, I agree - Stock Market first.

I see it. Stock, Hydro, upgrade to rifles and all the artillery we can build.

Remember to sell the coal plant after getting Hydro plant.

Nice turns, Aggie.

This was on page 2 of this busy forum. Any news 6thgentexan? Did you kill the Maya!?!?

He's supposed to be destroying the Maya all in his 10 turns?

I have a vacation coming up that will keep me from civ from July 24th to Aug 8

This time I won't be able to log on much if at all during that time. I am hoping this game will be in the mop up stages by then (and that it will be us doing the mopping), but I thought it best to let you all know. I am posting to all my threads so you may see this more than once :D

Wife's birthday slowed down my playing.....not the destruction of the Mayans.


1600AD-0 See state of the City. Move artillery out of capital, get some workers completing our railroads and end turn.

IBT Mayans offer their WM for ours and Replaceable Parts.

1605AD-1 We are one turn from 21 pop so start mining. Upgrade our Muskets to rifles for 360g.

IBT Romans ask to trade TM so I do to be nice.

1610AD-2 Stock-->Hydro

IBT France offers MPP and RoP for 4GPT. Tempting but I will pass.

1615AD-3 Replace forrest with mine and Fortress/Barricade. Good news that the Mayan are Fascists.

IBT Mayans complete Universal Suffrage in Chichen Itza.

1620AD-4 Hyydro plant due next turn so sell Coal plant for 40g costing an extra turn to complete.

1625AD-5 Growth to 21 requires a clown instead of the scientist. 28GPT for 10% science. Joan has some ivory available. WM and 61g later, we have our scientist back.

IBT France declares war on the Romans.

1630AD-6 Hydro-->artillery we are at 76 shields....4 from an artillery. Will work on this. Some how I hit some of our slaves on auto. Will correct and get to 80s. Spend 150 upgrading our last Guerilla.

1635AD-7 There was a barracade not sitting on a mine. We are now up to 80spt.

IBT The Inca join the French against Rome.....down to 1 city. Rheims completes Hoovers for the French.

1640AD-8 Now starting one artillery per turn. Have to clean polution. Because they will not last much longer, sell Rome our WM for his last 16g. France now has Combustion.

1645AD-9

IBT I have been watching 14 Mayan rifles walk around our walls. Thay are at war with Abe and I thought they were heading that directdion. They just turned south intering our territory. I'll watch them another turn.

1645AD-9

IBT The Mayans appear to be atempting to pillage one roaded, mined hill on our continent that is in American territory with excessive force.


1650AD-10 Since we are building rifles and artillery, decline to renew saltpeter deal with Abe. He has no money so I will not change the 9GPT he is paying for Incense. We are also not getting horses from France but I did get 391g for renewing the Incense for Furs and Spices.

IBT The French finish off the Romans.

1655AD-11 The Maya now have RP.

IBT Abe cancels the Incense deal. It is now worth 160g. I'll hold out for more. See first 2 Mayan Infantry.

1660AD-12

IBT France declares on the Americans. Mayans pillage that one square.

1665AD-13

IBT Mayans are leaving.

1670AD-14 We now have our last large GPT deal end. We cannot buy Combustion for GPT but Joan did get one of Abe's rubber sources. 82g and a WM later, we have rubber. Spend 180 on our 6 riflemen.

IBT America and the Maya stop fighting. We may be next.

1675AD-15 The Mayan rifles on the way home just moved to the squeare next to Berlin. I do not know if they are taking a trip on our railroad or are ready to rumble. All infantry are in Berlin after upgrading last turn. Please dispurse. There are 2 artillery per section of our wall. I was keeping them spread out just in case. In a few more turns we can try to do atempt a steal if we want to.

And the game. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG10_1675AD.zip)

Ok, I got it.

I am assuming the plan is to build up forces for an attack on Maya. I will continue this project

Preturn: Nothing to change. I am unsure on those rifles, but decide to wait and see.

IBT: The rifles do not attack.

1680 AD: I buy espionage for 69 gpt from france.
Artillery->Intelligence Agency

1685 AD:

IBT:
Maya declare war on the french.
Inca declare war on the french.

Build agency and a few more Infantry...

1730 AD: France and Maya are at peace. America is dying out. Soon there we be two huge civs.. possibly the inca... and us.

1740 AD: Plant a spy in the Mayans. They have all speed 1 units... and 155 infantry.

1745 AD: We have enough money to do a careful steal and are reasonably ready for war so I try a careful steal.
It fails but we are not caught. We now have 1 gold.

1750 AD: Well it will be a long time before we can steal again. We should discuss if we want to go to war.

Ok, I am going to pay the the high, high cost for oil with france. 1 gold gets us oil.

Notes:
There are now 3 OCC Civs in the game and two closely balanced super powers.

I built infantry, I felt we needed more. We are still kind of short. Here is a synopsis of our forces

We have an infantry and crusader (or guerrilla) on each of the 7 forts. This leaves us with:
16 Artillery
10 Cavalry
2 Infantry
In the capitol.

In 4 turns we will have 20 Artillery, but 2 infantry per fort would make me feel much better than only 1 as they are much more likely to live. That would add 14 more turns however beyond the 4. I am more in favor of attacking before they have tanks however. I think we need more than 2 infantry for our assault. So maybe 8 turns?

So we should discuss:
1) when do we go to war?
2) Is an infantry and a crusader enough to hold the forts?

Mayan forces currently are:
7 settlers, 4 workers, 1 pike, 6 longbow, 2 Musket, 34 rifle, 164 Infantry, 18 Artillery, 7 Galleon, 5 guerilla.

Pillaging is an option with only 4 workers. Explorers under infantry perhaps?

Here is a picture of the world.

Yes, let's discuss. The Maya have a tremendous number of troops! But good to see that they are at war though. I would indeed wait until we have a wee bit more infantry an I like the explorer idea.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan
betazed------out until further notice
Greebley-----holiday from July 24th to August 8th
homeyg------up
Microbe------on deck

I would think a single infantry should be OK. They probably won't attack them anyway before tanks.

Yes, let's build a few more infantry (3?) before we start our assault. We should be able to attack the Maya with 5 infantry, our artillery and cavalry in one stack.

I obvousily misread Greebley's turnlog. The Maya aren't at war.

But I see that a few trades with the French can be renewed. Maybe with a MA?

EDIT: I vote to go to war NOW. We could send the complete army of Berlin to a target and the Maya will probably avoid all our troops and go for the city (which takes them through French lands and woulds take 4 turns to reach Berlin). We could also first take a defensive position, but still I think that we are ready for a war now.

I would build a few infra units and then cavalry/artillery. We will lose cavalry in the battles.

Ya, an MA with France shouldn't be hard to get. The two are enemies now. I think they will attack a single infantry; they were willing to attack infantry with rifles in the war with France. I think 3 infantry as Aggie suggested will be better (build 2 more to keep one at home and send 3) makes sense.

I expect they may attack and possibly break through our line. We need to watch out for that. Maybe not though if there are easier targets in france.

We will probably want to switch sides fairly often. Keep them relatively balanced is a good thing and will want to clear out newly settled cities before they grow.

[Edit: We cannot currently build Cavalry as we lack horses and Saltpeter. With an ROP with France we could get a colony on the Salt that would have to be replace by a trade when borders expand]

Well, I think that they won't attack. But we obviously can wait the 6 turns, we waited so long already. But imho it shouldn't be a lot more than that.
I don't know if homeyg is comfortable to start this war, but I think it is possible to hold on and be defensive for four turns before trying to take cities. We should expect to lose 3 cavalry per city. Infantry (though redlined) is tough in a size 12 city.

EDIT: I like to see France and the Maya fight each other. They need to cripple their armies and research pace. Whether we are passive or active soon in this war is less important imho.

Okay, I got it.

Edit: I'm not worried about starting the war. I'm just worried about how to go about carrying out the war.

I think the way to carry it out is to have a decent size stack of Infantry (at least 3), Cavalry (all but a few - let the Mayans attack our line), and artillery (all but 4 or 5). Go to take out towns.

I would also suggest not leaving right away. See what kind of forces you need to repel the mayans on the home front first. Once you are comfortable at handling their attacks then move out.

We really want enough Artillery to knock the AI down to 1 hp. We may not have enough yet. I am not sure.

Alright, I'll play tomorrow. If anything else needs to be discussed, now is the time. :coffee:

I agree with Greebley with the tactic (3/4 infantry for defense, artillery for getting the units in the Maya cities redlined and maybe even city size <12 or <7 and then cavalry to finish it off).

If you want to attack: just move the complete stack two tiles from a city, preferably on a hill or mountains, but within reach of the city for the cavalry from that spot.

If you want to defend: destroy the tiles in Maya land surrounding our lands with artillery. Don't destroy the complete road to the Maya though, we need it to immediately withdraw to Berlin. Wounded units that can be sent to Berlin in zero turns (over rails) are fully healed next turn. If the Maya come with a stack: soften it up with artillery and let the French do the rest. No need to risk a life of a cavalry on a redlined infantry, unless they are covering tiles with resources in our lands.

We never can have enough artillery. I would not attack with cavalry if you don't get a town redlined with artillery.

If you declare (which you could do immediately), please draw in the French. They will gladly do so. The other AI is too weak to play a role.

EDIT: And don't forget to keep that lone scientist going. Sanitation is not known yet! Same goes for Ironclads (our next tech?)

Turn 0: I declare war on the Mayans. I'm going to see what they send at our Infantry forts. If it's nothing big, I'll move out. We're going to have to pay big $$ to get a MA, so I negotiate for a MPP. I have to pay 47 gold and a WM. Press [enter].

IBT: France is in now in the Modern Ages; that can't be good. Maya sends a stack of doom into nearby French territory, next to one of our forts. Mostly infantry. I'd estimate about 50 units all together.

Turn 1: I move all of our artillery into adjacent fort and let the bombarding begin. Most of the artillery hits, except for two. Only around 1/4 of the SoD has suffered minor damage, so I can't attack it. Hopefully some French tanks will take care of this for me. I send an infantry from the capital to the fort all of the artillery is in to reinforce.

IBT: The French send 3 infantry and a settler, going for that hill square to the west of Berlin. The Mayans retreat the damaged and send in even more replacements. There's a total of around 65 Mayan infantry near and next to the fortress and in French territory.

Turn 2: I bombard all I can. All hit except for 3. I bombarded all of the stack in a rotation sort of deal.

IBT: France delcare war on the Maya? I thought they were already at war. Oh, well. The Mayan troops move farther into French territory. Mayan galleon moves into our waters. Berlin shows that it is starving.

Turn 3: Now that those 60+ Mayan troops are trapped in French territory and are probably going to be destroyed, I think that I should take the opportunity to advance into their territory. I hesitate because our stack is only going to have 2 infantry, but I have one being built in 2 turns. I go ahead and do it. I move east onto a Mayan hill, where the artillery is within reach of 2 cities. If the stack gets killed, it's obviously my head.

IBT: France destroys the Inca. After a lame French attack on the stacks, most of the Mayan troops start to retreat. They realize our troops in their territory. Mayan galleon leaves. None of our stack units get attacked, though (actually none of our units have been attacked).

Turn 4: Shoot, nobody to trade rubber. Our first city target: Uaxactun. I redline all units except 1, which still has 2 hp. I investigate that city just to make sure. I easliy destroy that 2/4 infantry with a 5/5 cavalry losing only 1 hp. The attack procedes. I lose 2 cavalry. Produce a leader and destroy the city. The Mayan SoDs are trapped even further in French and newly opened up German territory. Move the MGL to the fortress. I'll have to wait until next turn to use it.

IBT: Our cavlary used to destroy the city was destroyed by a rifle. We lose our workers that we got from the city. Mayans continue retreating from French territory. Berlin: infantry -> artillery.

Turn 5: I remembered we can't really do anything with the leader, so I fortify it in Berlin. I bombard Tikal, although I don't know if we can take it with our damaged cavalry. Bombarding doesn't go well, so I return all of the damaged cavalry to Berlin to heal. Btw, I sent the newly built infantry to the stack.

IBT: One of the Mayan satcks was completely destroyed, I couldn't tell by what due to the fog of war. The Mayans request our audience? I tell them to go away. Mayans continue to retreat their stacks but they are making little progress. Berlin: artillery -> artillery.

Turn 6: I send artillery to the stack. Still no trades for rubber available. I buy horses and saltpeter from the Frech for 205 gold and a WM. I change to-be-built artillery to a cavalry. I once again bomb Tikal. Not much progress made. I'll wait for cavalry in Berlin to heal before I attempt to attack again.

IBT: I see French tank take out two Mayan infantry from one stack and then get destroyed by an attacking Mayan infantry. Belin: cavalry -> artillery.

Turn 7: I bomb Tikal. I investigate Tikal and it turns out they fortified one of their fricken stacks in the city so it would be impossible to take the city this turn. I don't even think I'll be able to take it at all. I'll try again next turn, though, and if I can't take it then, I'll focus my attention somewhere else. I move all of the healed cavalry to the stack.

IBT: Americans want to territory maps, I say yes. Berlin: artillery -> cavalry.

Turn 8: I bomb Tikal for hopefully the last time. I view the city and most of the units are damaged already. It was no good. I won't be able to attack. There are too many 3/4 and 2/3 infantry (I checked again). Next turn I'll reposition and start attacking Mayapan. Yes, I realize Tikal was on a hill, but I thought it might make life easier if I tried to take it first. I didn't lose any units, though, just bombardment turns.

IBT: Berlin: cavalry -> artillery.

Turn 9: I move all of the stack within range of Mayapan, and I'll have to wait until next turn to take some action. Only 4 infantry and an artillery are stationed there (I investigated).

IBT: I catch a glimpse of a Mayan destroyer as it moves into fog of war. Berlin: artillery -> cavalry.

Turn 10: I successfully bombard and destroy Mayapan with only one casualty, and I salvage a Mayan artillery. Fortify remaining artillery (about 4).

Well, that was pretty easy. The Mayans are basically crumbling before our eyes (even though we only took 2 cities, I think we will be able to take even more the next round). I got this war started and I'll let the next person take it even further.

It proves that AI just wouldn't attack fortified infantry before tanks. They don't have tanks right? We should pillage its oil first.

France has tanks but Maya doesn't (I didn't see any within my turns).

Good work Homeyg. I am wondering if the Mayans aren't the main threat anymore. Do we want to switch sides when the MPP expires? I am thinking we do want to do this.

Yes, I think the French are becoming the main super power in this game.

Fantastic job Homeyg!! I agree that we only have one threat left. But that will be the biggest challenge (as long as we don't have an infantry army or panzers). As soon as France makes peace we will be at war with France, with help of the Maya.

EDIT: That MPP wasn't needed. The French would have joined the war without us paying. Now we have to wait 10 turns before we can declare on the French.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie---------on deck
6thgentexan
betazed------out until further notice
Greebley-----holiday from July 24th to August 8th
homeyg
Microbe------up

Got it.

I still think Maya is a threat. We just razed a couple of corrupt cities. We didn't hurt the root of it.

I think the only way to win is to let the two big boys fight each other. I'll continue the war against Maya.

Microbe, sure. The Maya are still a threat. But they lack tanks and could be overrun by the French if we don't watch out. Just continue taking out a few cities and military of the Maya. But as soon as France makes peace we should make (pointy-stick) peace as well and flip the war. MA with the Maya vs the French.

Don't forget the min science run on Sanitation and then Ironclads ;) Good luck, ehm good skill.

Preturn: We are doing really good I think. No change. We still have 10-turn MPP left.

(1)1772AD: move stack. It seems Tikal is heavily defended according to previous turnlog, so I'm moving to the mountain between Tikal and Lagartero, and we can attack both cities from there.

(2)1774AD: stack in place.

(3)1776AD: We lose 3 cavs and raze Lagartero, which is defended by 4 infantry. We capture 4 slave workers and 3 artillery.

I wouldn't call Maya a non-threat and they have a lot of units in France territory. That's good.

IBT Tikal is bombarded by French bombers!

(4)1778AD: Maya pillaged a France's iron. There are lots of infantry in Tikal, so I'll pillage around it and let it starve before we declare. It would probably will be the next war.

(5)1780AD: We renew ivory by 2gpt+5g.

(6)1782AD: Bombard more tiles around Tikal. Now it only has 2 irrigated tiles untouched.

WW is 20% and lux has to be up to 10%.

(7)1784AD: Somehow there are only 5 infantry in Tikal and I'm able to redline all of them, but I dont attack. I hope the French bombers will kill them instead for us in the inter-turn. :)

IBT we caught Maya's spy.

(8)1786AD: There are only 4 infantry inside now. More reinforcement comes so I attack. This time RNG is in favor of us and we raze it by only one loss.

It's gonna hurt:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG10-1786AD.jpg

We have just enough gold for an immediate steal on Maya and we get Combustion.

Maya has Flight.

IBT We have Sanitation. I start on ironclads.

(9)1788AD: move stacks toward Copan.

IBT France asks for Sanitation for TM, I pay 8g instead.

(10)1790AD: I plant a spy on France. It has 13 tanks, 10 bombers and 79 infantry. Maya has 124 infantry.

Our oil deal expired and I didn't renew. We need to pay 11gpt for it and we can do it after we get Flight.

We should be able to strike Copan in the next couple of turns. We should keep hurting Maya so we can get more discount on the tech. Flight would be very good to have!

I think the next step is to get Flight and build lots of bombers. Both Fance and Maya have spare oil so we can go to war with anyone. :)

Maya agrees to pay some 1400g for peace, or trade Flight for Sanitation+24gpt. If we get 1400g, we can try immediate steal on France and get Mass Production, but it might be very risky since if we fail we'd have problem getting Flight. Just an option to discuss.

LURK

Wow, I looked at the start of this a long time ago and laughed at you guys for even trying this. Now, I am laughing at myself for thinking why couldn't you. Good job guys.

DE-LURK

Good work!! We have a long long way to go still, but the Maya already lost 70 infantry. I like the sound of flight. We could use about 20 bombers to kill redlined defenders in cities. I have a feeling that it would be better to wait for such a stack before trying to take out the French. Otoh the Maya shouldn't get a lot weaker than France. We need to keep their strength more or less balanced. I will have a look at the save in a few hours. But I won't be able to play very soon, because I am up in other SG's as well.

EDIT: When I said that the Maya aren't a threat I meant that France is the top dog now. The Maya can be controlled with help of the French, but the French are not easily controlled with the help of the Maya. So I am worried about the French (tanks and bombers) and not worried about the Maya (no fast units). But as soon as one of them is gaining too much, that civ will be the big threat of course.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie----------up
6thgentexan--on deck
betazed------out until further notice
Greebley-----holiday from July 24th to August 8th
homeyg
Microbe

microbe, did you post the right save? I think not :(

Sorry, corrected!

IHT: Looking at the options I decide not to trade yet.... But... looking again I see that we have 15 turns of a deal left. I decide to go ahead and buy flight. I first cancel all deals, including the MPP. We get flight, oil, Iron, furs, spices for Incense, Sanitation and 35 gpt. I switch our city to Bombers.

I think that this should be our last deal with the French for a while. We can't afford to make them stronger than they already are. But we needed Flight, because bombers will be crucial vs the same French (along with Panzers).

Turn 1 (1792 AD) Artillery fails to redline the 4 infantry in Copan, but we have fresh forces joining the stack.

Berlin: bomber->airport.

Turn 2 (1794 AD) Artillery and bomber fail to redline 5 infantry. :(
I mobilize, only to find out (what I knew already) that planes aren't built faster. So we can get 96 spt at max, 4 less than needed for bombers every turns :(

IT: Airport->bomber.

Turn 3 (1796 AD) Again no luck with the defenders of Copan.

Turn 4 (1798 AD) Again no luck :(

IT: bomber->bomber.

Turn 5 (1800 AD) The Maya only have 79 infantry left. Finally redlined defense in Copan, and a bomber destroys the civil defense! With the loss of 1 cav we raze the city. :hammer: We capture two artillery.

IT: Our horse/saltpeter deal with France ends. We don't need it.

Turn 6 (1802 AD) Troop movement towards Yaxchilan. Which will take a while. France has 10 TOWs!!

IT: Bomber->bomber.

Turn 7, 8 (1804, 1806 AD) More troop movement.

IT: Bomber->bomber.

Turn 9 (1808 AD) Yaxchilan is poorly defended. We get all 3 infantry redlined, city size to 11 and we destroy the civil defense. The bombers manage to kill two redlined infantry. Still we lose 3 cavalry to one redlined defender. Finally we raze the city. :hammer: We get 4 artillery from it.

The Maya have Sanitation, despite being at war with us and France :(

Turn 10 (1810 AD) Troop movement and random bombing in Maya land...

Things are changing rapidly. France took two cities and razed another. This is the Maya military:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG10-1810ADmayamilitary.jpg

And the French:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG10-1810ADfrancemilitary.JPG

We still have 10 turns in a deal with the French though. And I feel we are not ready yet. Ideally we would want 20 bombers and 10 panzers... Or am I wrong? And what to do with the now really weaking Maya? Push on?

The VSS and a map:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG10-1810ADvss.JPG

I don't know if it is possible, but we could use an army. Which means that we should capture three Mayan cities in one turn (maybe as part of a peace deal). We already have the MGL.

ROSTER (15 turns in peace time, 10 turns when at war):
Aggie
6thgentexan--up
betazed------out until further notice
Greebley------ on deck (holiday from July 24th to August 8th)
homeyg
Microbe

We really need panzers.

Maybe we can buy Mass Production and steal MT?

I think we should make peace with Maya. We also need oil from it at some point.

We already have oil and still 10 turns into a trade deal with the French (no obligation to remain at war with the Inca though). We will have 5 more bombers until then. The big issue is the 2 extra techs we need. We can't buy them and have not enough money to steal. The Maya have nothing over us, only 1508 gold and 5 gpt. That would be enough for an immediate steal. But that is very risky on a fascist government (the French).

EDIT: If we would be in the MA fast, we might have fun with our free tech.

Can we buy Mass Production via a peace deal with France?

Risky it is, I feel cavs are not up to the job now. Maybe with bombers it's much better, but it often loses to fortified redlined infantry.

Our most problem is actually not offense, but defense. We have fewer infantry than France's tanks. But this problem cannot be solved until we get Computers..

I think that as soon as we have TOWs and Panzers that we are (relatively) safe vs attacks of the French. So I'm afraid that we have to wait for that. Meanwhile France can go for the domination limit. Our biggest threat imho.

I don't see how we can get Mass Production via a peace deal. We will have 200 gold and 47 gpt when we make peace with the Maya, but that is not enough I fear.

We can get 2 cities for peace from the Maya (I don't think we can get 3), so maybe we should go for that after capturing one last city. We then can make an infantry army. This is probably safe in French lands and can go pillaging. The rest of our army should simply defend, with help of the Maya. Downside of that: no extra money from a Maya peacedeal and a weaker Maya tribe.

Will Maya give us anything for peace yet? Anything meaningful that is?


I am a bit worried about continuing vs Maya. We will have to face France alone if we are not careful.

@Greebley: We can get two cities (Quirigia and Piedras Negras) and 500 gold or we can get 1508 gold and 5 gpt. But we should only go for the cities after capturing a 3rd one, to create an amry (infantry probably).

I'm also worried about the Maya strength. This game would be won if the French were only as strong as the Maya.

I'd get the army.

We can choose to capture a non-core city to not weaken Maya too much.

I also agree we should wait for panzers.

Yes, waiting for a panzer army might be the best. The only non-core city close to us is one we could get for peace. I'm afraid that we should:

-capture Uxmal (core city)
-get two cities and as much money as possible out of peace
-create an army
-disband the three cities (and probably adjust our hapiness, without changing the min science run)
-get two techs one way or the other
-build a panzer army
-attack France with the help of the Maya

We can't attack in 10 turns anyway, but I doubt that we have two techs by then. I think that it is not a disaster when we have to wait a bit. Stealing is risky when the subject is a Fascist government.

EDIT: It might be good to hinder the French while they are at war with the Maya.

We can gift the three cities back to Maya if needed.

10-turn is definitely not enough. Note we also have to build panzers from scratch. 20-30 turns probably. And I hope we can get Computers as free tech or trade for it, so in the end it's a modern age war.

@Greebley: We can get two cities (Quirigia and Piedras Negras) and 500 gold or we can get 1508 gold and 5 gpt. But we should only go for the cities after capturing a 3rd one, to create an amry (infantry probably).

Isn't this game a strict OCC? Or, am I mistaken?

Read the rules carefully. It's not a strict OCC.

No, it's not strict OCC. You can find the exact variant rules in the first post. We are not allowed to build settlers, but we can capture cities as long as we disband them at the end of the turn. This means that we can get armies. We did the same in OCC Monarch.

I like the idea of giving back the cities to the Maya.

Okay, just checking. I don't want to ever make a mistake like in MM1 again. ;)

I am worried the other way. I do not think we want to wait for the french to get even stronger. I think we need to fight them the instant our deal ends. In fact if it wasn't for the fact that it is a peace treaty and it is an exploit, I would even consider breaking the deal.

If we wait for tanks we run the very real risk of the mayans being essentially gone and the french only a few percentage points from domination.

I would say bomb out the french roads and then use artillery vs the tanks. As long as they don't get the first attack we are fine - they are easier than infantry. We can even avoid WW for a while if we are not being attacked are inside our own lands and winning most fights. The Mayans will also be causing them troubles so we should either be able to get a task force out to do war with them, or we work on getting tanks while at war.

I haven't looked at the game, so I am not positive that this works. If it does though I really think we should do something like this now and not wait.

[Edit: The primary purpose of going to war would not necessarily be to take French cities, but rather keep France from taking Mayan cities. If they ingore us then we take cities to make up for the cities they take from Maya.

Question: Panzer army or pillaging Infantry army (= no tanks for france)?
Also the Panzer army sounds really neat, but will not be for a while. Do we want to consider a Infantry army for pillaging purposes? We can choose between an army that can take out cities that we build later vs an army that will turn off Frances capacity to build tanks now. The second sounds appealing more to me.

Greebley, I agree with that. It is probably best to declare on the French in 10 turns and have a pillaging army by then.

So 6thgentexan should be able to get us that infantry army and then you can go ahead with your idea ;)

Greebley, I agree with that. It is probably best to declare on the French in 10 turns and have a pillaging army by then.

So 6thgentexan should be able to get us that infantry army and then you can go ahead with your idea ;)


It is late in the game for an effective pillaging army. I noticed the French have bombers. The AI will bomb the army. If it gets to weak, then you army will be wiped out.

If you go with the army plan, might I suggest some explorers? They can move a total of 3 spaces from where the army was to where the army moves and still pillage an additional square.

Lee, explorers are surely a good idea. I agree that the French can bomb us, but they might go for the easier target: 4 HP Maya infantry. The AI often does look for the easy way out. But we will always have a tough choice: wait until we have stronger forces (and maybe wait too long) or don't wait and fight with weaker forces.

Bombers will make it more difficult. I am not sure we are pillaging to destroy their economy, rather to deprive them of some key resources.

It would be worth looking at the locations of those resources. It occurrs to me that France may have enough of each reasource to render that technique ineffective. 2 Rubber far apart would stymie that solution.

[Edit:
A pillaging infantry army will not work :cry:

France has resources widely seperated and also owns cities that block us from moving our armies to much of french territory.]

The exporer idea might do enough damage to make the pillaging itself worthwhile. Not sure any more which is better. (Panzer vs Infantry)

Quick look says I'm up and need to get a pillaging Infantry army. My vote would be for the Panzer army. I'll reread to make sure before playing. It will be tomorrow.

6gntxn

A panzer army may be better provided we don't have to wait too long to get it. I guess it depends how close we are to Tanks. If we are close enough, then I think the Panzer army is better.

Just get an army and when it is time for war we can decide how to fill it. It wouldn't be wise to immediately make an infantry army when we could have panzers in 10 turns (though that is unlikely).

1810-0 End turn

1812-1 Bomber--bomber move closer to Uxmal. we are out of range for our bombers so I am working on destroying rails we can reach.

1814-2 Artillery goes 7-3 to reduce thre infantry to 1 HP. Elite Cav promotes the 1hp infantry that artillery nocks back down. 2nd Elite Calvary dies in vain. I lose 2 more calvaries before taking Uxmal with a slave and a worker. I take Piedras Negras, Quirigua and 740 gold for peace. Army Built. Auction off improvements. Barrack, factory and coal plant in Quirigua fetch 105g. Piedras Negras had a barrack, market and an civil defense worth 45g. Sell barrack, market, bank, factory, hydro plant, civil defense and stock exchange in Uxmal for 255g. Move all but 4 used artilery and 4 cavalries back home. Give back the thre cities to Smoke.

1816-3 another bomber. Complete the ring of barricades.

1818-4 clean pollution.

1820-5 another bomber. Smoke loses his last city in the west.

1822-6 lose our lux from France. Smoke retakes his city.

1824-7 another bomber and the French start the United Nations. Mass Production is for sale from the French for all our money and most of our GPT.....not enough for Smoke.

1826-8 notice the French have captured Uxmal and Quiriqua.

1828-9 another bomber. France recaptured Kaminaljuyu.

1830-10 Stopping here after bombing some of the RR between french cities. Our deal with France is expiring now. Our military is 6 cavalry, 11 infantry, 22 artilery, 9 bombers, an empty army and 6 crusaders and a guerilla to round thing out. France is up to 36 tanks, 4 cavalry, 11 artilery, 9 bombers and 73 infantry with an additional 24 TOW's.


The Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/AG10-1830AD.zip)