Now I know this will be a controversial idea.

I think that after you get a resource then lose, after a number of turns (10 or more) your scientists will figure out a way to substitute the resource (with the exception of uranium) from resources that you currently have. Although- this would cause a decrease in quality for the units produced under substitution- maybe 50% to 25% of the orginal unit produced. I logo on some sort would designate the substituted unit.

-My reasoning for this is there have been long periods of time in the game where I had developed the technology but was unable to use it because People would not trade with me and I did not have the resource. I say that you must have had the unit so your scientist can learn enough to make a substitute.

-People in the US are currently complaining about $2/gallon gasoline, while people in other parts are suffering under much higher prices (Brits: How can you stand $6/gal. gas?) If the price were to go higher, then someone would figure out substitutes for gasoline.

Here's what I know: In RL, I would not have to return to using calvary units because I ran out of rubber. I would figure out some way to do with out or find a replacement.

And far from removing balance- I believe it would place MORE balance in the game, because only the weaker civs would be without resources.

Nor would it make trade less likely as it is still VERY unattractive to achieve units through substitution.

Let the fireworks begin!

You can't make Steel without Iron, Calvary without Horses, and it took about 100 years to replace Rubber with Plastics, and then only in limited capacity.
Any item you made with inferior products would effectively be the cruder version of the item.
Somehow I don't think Aluminum Tanks would be very practical or intimidating, nor a Calvary riding bicycles.
That's what makes an embargo so devastating.

actually, some forms of aluminum composites are better than steel.
and rubber is a plastic. plastic is a rubber.

while this idea would work in the modern era, it wouldn't work very well in the earlier stages of the game. sciences were not quite advanced enough back then when iron was discovered to even realize a new material could be made or found to replace iron. we run into another problem with the idea because even today, most materials can't just be replaced without significantly altering the original idea... example - we have our cars, tanks, and jets which run on oil based fuels. we still know of no alternative material that can be used which, without modification, can work in those engines properly and safely while keeping the same reliability standards.

and how about this? cavalry riding cows. :eek: just kidding

No, redstang, plastic is not a rubber. There do, in fact, exist polymers that are synthetic rubbers. Actually, the idea that rubber would be a necessary component for 'Modern Units' is a huge misnomer. Petroleum is used to make tires, etc. The makers of Civ just wanted to add an interesting flavor to the game, not neccessarily a realistic one. In fact, Infantry, which require rubber, don't even get to travel extra distance on the vehicles with which that rubber is supposedly being used for.

Again, as in the other thread, some of this has been addressed before. You guys really need to read Ybbor's sticky and see if some of the ideas are already proposed. The idea that if you lose a resource, you would be able to produce the units either at a deficit on the stats or at higher cost was proposed about a month ago.

Anything can be replaced if you go without the resources long enough.

Even after the discovery of metallurgy, rocks were still used to cut. You could still have legions with rock weapons- the training, in addition to the equipment was what made them what they were.

All around the world, horses were replaced by whatever animals were around them to use for many resources.

Besides, as pointed out many times, this is not real life- this is civ and Civ doesn't follow real life. I feel something like this would add balance to the game.

well, noyl certain units would be able to do this (cavalry w/o horses? nope, never gonna happen. swordsmen w/o iron? yes, possible, it would just be made out of weaker material, which is why there's a penalty). also the substituted unit should be upgradeable to the real unit. the substituted unit should require its own tech (i.e. replacement infantry anavailable with radio, or something)

No, redstang, plastic is not a rubber.

would you like to argue with my engineering professors and all my material sciences books? rubber is simply a partially crosslinked polymer. its generally not considered a plastic, but by the technical definition it is.

the only arguement i have about substitution, is how would you be able to substitute saltpeter in the time where the resource is actually needed. how can you replace coal in the beginning of its use? coal can substituted eventually, but those techs that would replace it already exist.

Actually we can currently make light-sweet crude oil out of ANY organic material now, it’s just real expensive to do so. I like the idea of having to conquer a resource to build with it, and to be be able to deny access to resources for neighbors with monopolistic control (especially if I prevent them from getting their UU, heh heh). Sometimes, that the only tactic I can use to win.

But how about this: When you move on to the next age, the required resource is automatically substituted/available. Maybe you should have to some amount from your tax income to pay for it (at your option). This would still allow me have my monopoly for a while, yet reduce the snowball effect over time.

I believe that there should always be a "fall back" unit, and for the most part, there is. If you can't get swordsmen due to no iron, Horsmen or Archers can still make acceptable replacements. If you still can't get Medieval Infantry or Knights, you can make Longbowmen. If you can't get Cavalry, keep using Longbowmen - lots of them. If you can't get Infantry, you can get Guerillas. If you can't get Tanks, you can get Marines, or even Guerillas. It's the modern age that causes trouble. If you don't have oil or rubber, you're dead - no TOW Infantry or Mechanized Infantry for you, as well as no Marines or Modern Armor. No Modern Age unit can be made without a resource. But, by then, most people have Rubber, Oil and Aluminum, or at least a mix of them.

This really isn't all that necessary, I think. There are substitute units for all ages I can think of. They're just a little painful to use - exactly how they should be.

actually, TOW is resource free IIRC

I think Ybbor's last post says it all.

I don't like the idea because some things just can't be replaced with other things, yes there are always synthetics but that is one of the last things researched in the game otherwise I might say after synthetic fibers is researched but it is too late to really make a difference.

Rather than replacements, I think there should be a black market. That way you can get what you need, but at a cost.

No, not Howard Stern or Micheal Jackson. I'm talking about our very own searcheagle, with his reactionist idea that even I don't like! searcheagle, I salute you for your boldness, ingenuity, and forsight of the consequences of your thread! :rockon: :salute: :rockon:

actually, TOW is resource free IIRC...I knew that.

*Hangs head in shame*

No, not Howard Stern or Micheal Jackson. I'm talking about our very own searcheagle, with his reactionist idea that even I don't like! searcheagle, I salute you for your boldness, ingenuity, and forsight of the consequences of your thread! :rockon: :salute: :rockon:

Why thank you, I guess. Although next time could you leave out the comparison to Stern or Jackson?

This post came after a game where in the modern age, I lacked the critical resource of Rubber. I had plenty of oil and alminum- but NO rubber. No one would trade with me for rubber. So for prolly a 100 years I was without rubber. (Have no fear- I have captured a few sites so I no longer need it!)

I still think there should be some sort of a fall back unit. In the modern age there is no comparable unit for the tank. Its role can't be divided for a few other units- nothing can has the hitting power and the only thing with the range is the calvary, which is painfully obsolete.

One of the previous threads suggested something very similar to your idea, searcheagle. It suggested that when you do not have the resource, you would have to pay much more to make the unit (i.e. the black market idea). I think that this would be the most feasable way to handle the problem. Basically, if you want to produce a unit for which you do not have a resource (other than certain obvious ones) then you would either:

A: Have to pay more shields to create it.
B: Have to pay cash along with shields to create it.

As for those that would not really be available, chariots and swordsmen come to mind. If you never had horses, you can't really substitute for them (unless you have camels, but that gets into another whole problem with animal husbandry which really needs to be addressed as well). If you don't have the iron (at all) then you probably should get to create a lesser unit, bronze swordsmen (since Firaxis seems to think that everybody has access to these materials). If you don't have saltpeter, then, provided somebody you know does have it, you can purchase the stuff on the black market. That sort of thing.

In order to create a black market for resources still requires that someone trades with you.

-Just for the record, I'm not opposed to the black market idea. I want countries to be able to break their embargo agreements. Just if their embargo partners find out, then it hurts their reputation.

Too complex an idea.

I still think there should be some sort of a fall back unit. In the modern age there is no comparable unit for the tank. Its role can't be divided for a few other units- nothing can has the hitting power and the only thing with the range is the calvary, which is painfully obsolete.Let this be a lesson to you guys: As soon as you see you don't have a resource, GO GET IT! You should've had a long long time between Replaceable Parts and Motorized Transportation. If you can't get a source of Rubber before you research about seven (7) more advances, then you don't deserve to have tanks in the first place. You just have to be aggressive.

And yes, I know exactly how you feel. The past two games I've played I ended up in a terrain-rich but resource-poor island, having to resort to offshore colonies to gather resources. In the first game, the only resources I had access to were Iron and Coal. In this second game, the only resource so far is Horses. But you know what? I like it. It makes things interesting. Having Civ 3 play keep away with the resources gives me a good and desparate reason to war with someone.

Rammstein @How would this be too complex? The computer would handle the whole process. When the substitute material was found, the game would notify you that the resource was successfully substituted and that the new unit/improvement could be created. From then on out, it would be like any other unit.

Khift@ I know I can take over other civs to get the resources but does this actually improve the game any? It certainly does not help trade any by forcing you to be resource independent.

If every ressource could be substituted why having the ressource thing at all, if you don't need them, the idea was to have strategical important places you have to defend or have to conquer!

But I'm in favor of a new ressource system where the ressources are quantified instead of the have or have not system!

Anything can be replaced if you go without the resources long enough.

Even after the discovery of metallurgy, rocks were still used to cut. You could still have legions with rock weapons- the training, in addition to the equipment was what made them what they were.

All around the world, horses were replaced by whatever animals were around them to use for many resources.

Besides, as pointed out many times, this is not real life- this is civ and Civ doesn't follow real life. I feel something like this would add balance to the game.
Which was exactly the point I was trying to make.

Replacement materials for required resources would require using older materials (rocks, bronze) for the more modern materials that require resources that you don't have access to.

Synthetic oil, fine. As soon as you've researched synthetics.

Synthetic Iron, OK. As soon as you've researched Duralumin.

Synthetic Steel, sure. As soon as you've researched Computer Age Ceramics. (Or whatever they call the ceramics in engines and space shuttles.)

The only way to substitute for missing resources is to resort to the resources that had been used before (and the weaker units that use them) or research the technologies that actually replaced them on planet Earth.

You could link the time it takes to find a substitute resource to the scientific research funding. I think it's logical to assume that better-funded scientists would be able to create or discover a substitute resource faster than poor ones.

Finally- Supporters!

But the most important element of the substitution was that not ideal position to be in and would not minimize the importance of strategic resources.

Substitution is a complex issue, and depends on the resource, and the use. Khan mentioned the ability to make crude oil now, although its cost is high. True, we can. but how feasible is that on a large scale. I read that one plant can produce 100 barrels a day. To meet US needs, this would require 100,000 such plants. Its one thing to substitute on a small scale, but on a large scale is another matter.

I have in my personal mod a system that works like this:

A unit like the tank needs the resource but several tech advancements later I do have a unit that is a light tank that costs ALOT more (more than modern armor). This unit lacks the stats to compete with the tank but is better than cavalry so it fills that roll. I do this mostly for visual reasons, I hate fighting cavalry and ancient units in the modern age. So I have altered my Industrial and modern ages to include "Substitution" units if for no other reason than it looks better. I meen look at third world nations they strap guns to pick up trucks and few "troops" on the ground dont have guns sold to them by companys or govenments. As for air units I do have a Substitution for Jets that only needs oil but is strictly visual and has the same stats as the Fighter. Air craft and Navys should not have in IMO many substitution's but ground units in the last two era's should if for no other reason than it looks better.

The way I would do this is that with a certain technology you could have the "synthetic oil plant" improvement become available. This improvement would make oil available to only that one city. We could also make a synthetic rubber plant available. Such plants could be given high upkeep values to reflect the high real life costs of synthetic oil and encourage the players to only do this as a last resort.

Both oil and rubber can be synthesized. Rubber is synthesized till this day and oil was synthesized by the Germans in WWII.

However I think other resources, like coal, cannot be synthesized. Iron and uranium (and I think aluminum) certainly cannot be synthesized as they are elements (although this may become possible with a future trasnsmutation tech). There may be inferior substitutes for them, like firewood instead of coal but no actual synthetic versions.

The idea of having a small wonder provide the resource to the whole civ may have merit but I think it would probably be better for gameplay to only allow plants to be built in individual cities and make them insanely expensive to build and maintain.

NP2300 your idea is good but then whats the point in even putting it in the game if it is so expensive that it would be more economical to use military might. nobodies going to use it if it hurts their economy more than war does. but thats just my thought