NEW AS OF 02/02/2002: Long Winded Changes, Early Release Preview 5 has been RELEASED!

Download it here: LWC Mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=176848&t=5064#post176848)

From the changelog:

-NEW VERSION: Long Winded Changes, Early Release Preview 5 (ERP5). Changes the bonus resources provided by most resources (all changes are increases), tweaked the disappearance probability on Horses and Iron to make them 'move' less, changed Fruit to Bananas, fixed all the building bugs (including not being able to build some, and the coastal defense installations), minorly tweaked some unit costs, tinkered with a few naval unit abilitys (added Blitz to some...), and a few more minor changes.

The file is now called "LWC Mod ERP5.bic" to avoid confusing people. Load it as a Scenario to play with the changes. You must start a new game to see the changes, you can't just change the file name and load a saved game.

This version is a reccommended update for all users, and will not break (or effect) any old saved games. You will however need to reinstall the addon packs (like extra unit animations and non-labeled resource file), though those addon packs have not changed for this version.

NOTE: When unzipping the mod remember to OVERWRITE all the files it asks you about, or the mod may not install properly!


Note: This thread is quite long and most of the replys are old outdated versions (like 0.1.1). They're still worth the read, but to skip to comments made after the release of ERP5 skip to the following: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=176848&t=5064#post176848


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An updated modified LWC combat calculator is also available online at the website, and comes along with the mod in the LWC Mod directory. It's definately worth a look, and a quick reference to some defensive bonus changes made in the LWC mod.


Optional Addons: Visit the LWC website at lwc.realmofgaming.net (http://lwc.realmofgming.net[/url) to get the new unit animation addons, a building icon addon (had to remove it from the main download because it was too big, but you don't HAVE to have it), and a non-labeled resource.pcx file (for those who don't like the resource labels).

The website is updated, as well as the download, so here's the short form:

-NEW VERSION: Long Winded Changes, Early Release Preview 4. Oh so many changes, oh so little time. Basically I almost totally re-did all the units (cost, requirements, attack, defense, ZoC, etC), changed UU for America and England to more functional and useful units (the Minuteman and Longbowman, respectively), addition of multiple naval units (and changes of existing ones), 7 buildings (including a small wonder or two), some changes to the tech tree, tweaking of tech costs, changes to multiple wonders, a horde of small bug fixes, largely updated civilopedia, a fixed tech tree (display should be about perfect now), and a rearranged unit list.

To play you will need to load LWC Mod ERP4.bic as a scenario, rather than LWC Mod.bic.


All users should upgrade to this new version, because it's just that good! :D

And a request:

-REQUEST: EMAIL ME YOUR LWC SAVED GAMES! Zip 'em up, tell me what version of the LWC mod it is, and make them an attachment to an email to aemuli@yahoo.com

This goes for ALL versions, well into the future until I tell people to stop doing it!

Throughout the course of the game, if you wouldn't mind, save the games at the begining, middle, and end of each age. Exclude only the early and middle ancient age, as I have no need for those. I most desire saves from the late Middle Ages on, and personally prefer those from the difficulty levels of Regent or Monarch. However, I want the other ones too :)

This may also turn into a unique feature of the LWC mod later on, because when I get a good solid version of the LWC that everyone can play for multiple days/weeks I will request people send in some saves, which I can play around with and turn into a special kind of Scenario!

I'm not sure exactly why, but playing a game someone else has already started is really quite enjoyable, and I find I can learn alot from it (and I'm sure others can too). I have many, many, many ideas for this, but for now I want the saves strictly for testing. Most of the LWC changes take effect towards the end of the middle ages, and I don't want to have to play all the way from the begining just to get there and decide something should be tweaked :P

Oh, and you don't have to be a really good player either, or even have been playing Civ3 that long! Behind or ahead, good or bad strategies, it doesn't matter to me!



Enjoy!


------------------------------

Check out the changes.txt file from the LWC website (also included with the mod itself) for a full list of all non-unit changes (I haven't documented the units because they will be changed so much, and they've already all been changed alot). Here are some highlights:

-Totally changed unit combat system, which makes new units superior to old ones without allowing a slightly more advanced Civ to crush a neighbor who's behind in research. War is now also more profitable, but also more dangerous, as Attack values go up for Offensive units while their Defense values have gone down. Watch out for the counter-attack!

-Militaristic, Expansionist, and Scientific traits have been improved to bring them more inline with the other 3 traits.

-27+ NEW Units!

-5 NEW Technologys!

-10+ NEW City Improvements!

-4+ NEW Small Wonders!

-2 NEW Resources (Oasis and Fruit)!

-Barbarians aren't such pushovers any more. You'll have to earn that pillaged gold, and protect your treasury and people!

-And well over 120 OTHER game-improving rule changes!


Check the LWC Website (http://207.191.20.18/civ3/index.html) for various information and optional add-ons.

HOW TO INSTALL: Unzip the files into your Civilization III directory. The default is C:\Program Files\Infogrames Interactive\Civilization III, but if you choose another spot then be sure to unzip it there. So long as you do not use PKUNZIP, which ignores the paths set in the zip file. Any other unzipping program that uses the path variable set in the zip file (such as WinZIP, WinRAR, WinACE, et al) will work just fine.

If inside your Civilization III folder (or whatever you named it) you find a folder named "LWC Mod", and in your Scenarios folder you find a .bic filed with "LWC" in the name, then you've done it right.


-NOTE: The AI is capable of using and taking advantage of all changes. Any changes found that the AI can't use will probably be removed.



Be sure to thank the wonderful Kolyana (http://apolyton.net/forums/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=14818) for the web space/bandwidth :)

Two words: Lavish, Praise.



And as always, I welcome any and all feedback!

Ive been watching your thread and am very excited to start a game with your adjustments. I think it will makie it alot more enjoyable expirence. Could you please post what buildings you flagged for corruption, it would be appreciated. Will post another reply when i get a game goijng and see how things work out.
thanks again

Reame.txt is available from the website.


First version removed after 45 downloads.
Second version removed after 350 downloads.
Third version removed after 262 downloads.
Fourth version removed after 368 downloads.

Here is my current proposed changes for version 0.1.1, so tell me what you think of whether they should be in the next version or not:

-Palace now has 4 Bombard Defense and gives a 25% bonus to defense. 2 defense and 10% bonus was almost entirely unnoticable, so I had to bump it up a bit.

-Aluminum now has been raised up to 160 from 150 previously in this mod. It now has the same commonality as Iron and Horses, though it should still be more common I'll just leave like this. I've considered removing aluminum from the most modern units simulating how common Aluminum has become, which is the same thing the game does with Saltpeter (explained on the Rifleman's entry in the Civilopedia). But I figure the Spaceship is a game-ender so it should require all the resources it does (Aluminum, Uranium, and Rubber) for gameplay reasons...so I'm leaving it alone. It will now appear in the amount 2 for every player, but not every player will necessarily be near a deposit.

-Rubber now has 130 appearance up from 120. Oil has 120 and I figure rubber should be a little more common, but not much, so this does it. You probably won't even notice a difference, but as rubber is needed for some important units and the Spaceship it should be a weensy bit more common.

-Settlers can now Clear Forests and Jungles. The main use is so you can send off a settler and it can clear out a jungle/forest on it's own so it can build a city there. Seems reasonable to me.

-Swordsman, Roman Legions, and Persian Immortals can now Clear Jungles. They do have swords, don't they? They cannot, however, clear Forests, so you can't use them for logging. I gave the special units the ability because they replace the Swordsman, and it makes sense that they both have rather tough slicing weapons, which should be able to cut through trees anyway. The Romans had builders and architects in their ranks anyway, but I've decided not to allow them to build Forts.

Have you noticed that I hate jungles?

Great please do, I love it. :) :D

Especially does changes to the units so they can also chop down trees etc etc.

Please tell me when I could download does new changes.

Good job on the changes. Personally I have to wait untill November 19:th before I can play Civ3. So that sucks. Have been following the progress here and on civ3.com for a loooooooong time now.

I´m a bit, well a large bit, surprised that you and lots more have to make changes to the game, ALLREADY!!!?!?!?

This is outrageous. How can mr. Meier and Co. make a game that looks like this???

I really hope that my first experience will be good (not hoping for fantastic or "best-ever" anymore). However, when I see guys (and gals) like yourself post these downloads I get little calm. So thanx alot!

NEW VERSION!

Here are the changes:

11/12/01:

-Palace now has 4 Bombard Defense and gives a 25% bonus to defense. 2 defense and 10% bonus was almost entirely unnoticable, so I had to bump it up a bit.

-Aluminum now has been raised up to 160 from 150 previously in this mod. It now has the same commonality as Iron and Horses, though it should still be more common I'll just leave like this. I've considered removing aluminum from the most modern units simulating how common Aluminum has become, which is the same thing the game does with Saltpeter (explained on the Rifleman's entry in the Civilopedia). But I figure the Spaceship is a game-ender so it should require all the resources it does (Aluminum, Uranium, and Rubber) for gameplay reasons...so I'm leaving it alone. It will now appear in the amount 2 for every player, but not every player will necessarily be near a deposit.

-Rubber now has 130 appearance up from 120. Oil has 120 and I figure rubber should be a little more common, but not much, so this does it. You probably won't even notice a difference, but as rubber is needed for some important units and the Spaceship it should be a weensy bit more common.

-Settlers can now Clear Forests and Jungles. The main use is so you can send off a settler and it can clear out a jungle/forest on it's own so it can build a city there. Seems reasonable to me.

-Swordsman, Roman Legions, and Persian Immortals can now Clear Jungles. They do have swords, don't they? They cannot, however, clear Forests, so you can't use them for logging. I gave the special units the ability because they replace the Swordsman, and it makes sense that they both have rather tough slicing weapons, which should be able to cut through trees anyway. The Romans had builders and architects in their ranks anyway, but I've decided not to allow them to build Forts.

Have you noticed that I hate jungles?

11/13/01:

-BUG FIX: Somehow Barracks got flagged with -2 culture. While an interesting idea it was NOT intended and has been fixed. Barracks now correctly produce 0 culture.

-Factorys and Manufacturing Plant now produce -2 culture each. -1 was just too small to be noticable.

-Coal Plants and the Iron Works small wonder now produce -3 culture, up from -2 culture. A little mroe noticable, but it probably isn't a big deal.

-Recycling Plants now produce -2 pollution.

-Mass Transit now produces -1 pollution. With the above change it might help with pollution a little bit.

More changes may be needed to play with pollution a little, but probably the best is to somehow allow a pollution reducing improvement earlier on. Will have to wait until new improvements can be added, however.


You can download the new version in the first post in this thread.

Plutark,

I like these changes you've made, but I'd like to make one small suggestion. You've changed the privateer up to 2/1/3 which might be a mistake. Here's why; the great thing about privateers is, they don't carry a nation's flag. So, you can cut down another country's navy and not have the blame placed on you.
To go along with such cloak-and-dagger, there had to be something to balance it out and that caveat was the weak attack.
I use the privateers in teams of 3 or more. Many times I'll lose two of them, but I do succeed in knocking out the enemy and don't have the repercussion of war.
Just my two cents.
Keep up the good work!

When you build a city on forest/jungle it is automatically cleared, no need to clear it manually first. ;)
Other than that most of the changes sound good, I will try the mod after I finish my current game.

Looks great; I wonder if mod'ers will come up with a master mod much like the one over at the Europa forum.

One question though, do you know that settlers can already settle jungle and forest (and hills) with the same effect as settling on grassland? Or did you intend that they clear an area around the city site before settling?

Thanks,
Will

Great changes, for the most part. :goodjob:

A word about resource scarcity, though. While it's frustrating to not have access to a given resource (just try defending against tanks without rubber), I believe that's a large point of the game. If you don't have it, you have to trade for it. (Or if you can't trade for it, you have to take it, which may or may not be an option depending on what resource you're missing...)

With the modern resource dependencies, attacking/defending resources becomes a strategic necessity, which adds a whole new flavor to the game. It's much more interesting to knock out your enemy's supply to rubber, for instance, before launching a massive assault. Making resources readily available defeats their purpose.

My two cents. :)

A) I just realized today that forests/jungles are auto-cleared when you build a city. The strategy guide was wrong there, lol.

But I figure now they can also clear the area around the city. But frankly, I doubt it's a feature that will ever be used. I'm going to go ahead and remove it if for no other reason than not to confuse the AI.

B) I've moved rubber back to where it was at 120. Aluminum stays as it was for many reasons, but removing rubber from infantry was enough of a change to rubber.

But I will be removing uranium from the AEGIS, but that's just because the AEGIS' aren't actually nuclear. More info on that in the next version :)


Russiophile: I agree and the Privateer is a weakened version of the Frigate, but with the upgrate to Frigate if nothing else the Privateer was due for a +1 attack. 1 attack was just too small to be reasonable.

However, I relooked at the unit now that you mentioned it and decided to increase it's cos to 7 from 6. I thought it was more expensive, but I was wrong :)

That should balance things up nicely.

Current changes for the next version, up for debate. I gotta go sleep :cry:

Here they are so far:


-AEGIS Cruiser no longer requires Uranium. Through multiple sources, and especially through the information from [currently held till I get the names they want used] who were extremely helpful, I have found that indeed AEGIS Cruisers are not nuclear powered. They have extremely big gas turbines, but not reactors. I have considered giving it 6 movement as part of an increase in movement I'm thinking of giving modern naval units. Depending on the results of my current experimentation it may be part of a much larger improvement of naval warfare. However I will leave it as-is until new units can be added that ensure balance.

-Radar Artillery now has 2 movement. This unit is surely self-propelled, and should obviously be faster than a catapult.

-Rubber is now back to 120 from my previous change to 130. Rubber is naturally rare and should just be left alone.

-Nuclear Submarine now can carry 2 missles.

-Settlers are back to their default, no longer clearing forests or jungles. It turns out that they automatically clear the tile when a city is built. Go figure. Another reason strategy guides are wastes of money.

-Privateers now cost 7 instead of 6. I had assumed they already were differing in cost, but assuming makes and ass out of u and mi after all. This should ensure they are balanced out with other ships.

-ISSUE: Pottery is currently listed as a prerequisite for Map Making, which allows the Harbor, Galley, Great Lighthouse, and world map trading. Should it really be a prereq? I'd love to hear reasons why it should or shouldn't be.

-WOOHOO!: Thanks to my recently aquired ability to Add various things to the game, I will be doing so now. Now we be havin' some REAL fun!

-Added Unit: The Coracle is now available with no prerequisite, costs 2 to build, has 1/1/2, can carry 1 unit, and upgrades to the Galley.

-The Galley no longer sinks in the Sea. Still goes into the drink in oceans, though.

-The Caravel now has 4 movement, up from 3 previously. With stats like 1/1/4 and carrying 3 units, it's not exactly a Super Unit. (I will be introducing the concept of the Super Unit at a later date. Suffice it to say that now you too can attempt to construct a Bismark/Yamato)

I see that Forgotten Palace changes its requirement to 5 Temples! It is not very good. :(

However, I'm posting this to let everyone know that this next one will be BIG. BIG my friends. Here's a teaser of what is to come:

-Comes with an auto-installer so you don't even have to navigate you're computer's directorys.

-Adds more than 8+ units including the Mercenary unit (think "Privateer on land"), an ancient age warship, a middle-industrial age warship, 3 modern age ships which replace their industrial age ancestors, 2 totally new modern submarines, 1 totally new modern ship, and a new unit called the "Atomic Bomb"! (in the late industrial age, where it should be!) And maybe even more...

-Totally smoothes out, balances, improves, and greatly increases the importance of naval units throughout the entire game. Being able to ignore water units would be a very unwise move.

-At least 1 new non-government technology.

-At least 2 new governments which are not present in ANY other mod (one in the late middle ages, the other in the late industrial ages), along with 2 new technologys to go along with it.

-At least 1 new wonder (in the ancient age).

-At least 2 new city improvements.

-Changes land-based bombardment units to be more useful at certain points in the game.

-1 new ground unit in the ancient age which introduces a totally new concept for new units to the game.

-2 new resources. One is a bonus resource, and the other a special very rare strategic resource.


And that's just the stuff I have thought up today!

Yes my friends, the LWC mod will be the ultimate Civ3 mod.



Note: "Good lord willin' and the creak don't rise" I will update this mod when the patch comes out should it be neccessary, and do it as soon as possible after it so you can take full advantage of anything Firaxis may fix/change.

A small idea...
Maybe making the swormen upgradeable to either musketman or rifleman. Dunno about the musketman because the sworman actually has better attack rating than it, but the rifleman should be a good idea...

SkidiWili: I was going to try doing that today, but then I noticed that the swordsman and longbowman both happen to be Offense units, while the next offensive footsoldier unit is the Marine. It would be a bit screwy for the AI if I had an offensive unit turn into a defensive unit when upgraded, so instead I am considering adding an offensive infantry unit.

I'm strongly considering making it the Partisan :D

i noticed a "bug" in that patch of yours, the patch rawks tho.

when you made palace/forbidden palace(?) work as aqueduct you cant build those in the cities you have aqueduct. So you need to make those in size <6 towns so it really is a major pain in the ass if you'd wanna move your capital from, lets say, ocean side to deeper into the continent to eliminate some corruption. This might be just some weird bug the game generated in that specific game, havent tried it in other games tho.

for that offencive infantry, maybe introduce the infamous ski-squads? :D would rawk for blitzing..

skaut: Yup, that was a bug I noticed in the first version of the mod. The current one is the third version, which fixes that particular little bug.

It's an annoying "feature" that, for instance, automatically removes Aqueduct from the possible building lists in citys that already have access to fresh water. Ah well, it was a good idea while it lasted...even though it did only last through 1 version :)

Here are some suggested changes to upgrade paths that I am unhappy with in base game.

Swordsman should be able to be upgraded to Infantry.
Longbowman should be able to be upgraded to Infantry.
Cavalry should be able to be upgraded to Mechanized Infantry.
Ironclads should be able to be upgraded to Destroyers.


Also, in your suggested patch, a Manufacturing Facility should create "less" pollution than a Factory. I work for a Manufacturing Company and modern ones today, certainly create less pollution than factories from the 40s, 50s & 60s. Especially with all of the new EPA laws that have to be followed now.

Otherwise, I like many of your changes.

Shouldn't cavalry upgrade to tanks? (offensive unit to offensive unit)

My ideas:
Add men-at-arms. Available with chivalry, require iron and are 4/2/1 (upgrade of swordsmen), costs 50 production.

Add Crossbowmen. Available with invention, are 3/2/1 (like swordmen but require no strategic resource), costs 30 production.

The_Newbie: The crossbowman might be a bit redundant with the longbow having 4/1/1. However I may just add it at a future time, and it's a good idea. I hadn't realised the crossbow wasn't represented in the game.

But I REALLY like the Man-At-Arms. It may make it into the upcoming version (I'm hoping to release it either late monday or tuesday). I had kind of noticed that offensive infantry was oddly not available in the middle ages other than the longbowman, but hadn't thought about fixing it. But adding it to chivalry is perfect!

My new unit will allow the upgrade of the longbowman in the early industrial age along with the Man-At-Arms.

Excellant :D


Oh, and on the Cavalry. I'm trying to keep a relative theme with what can and can't be upgraded, and here's the thing with Cavalry. In what way would making a tank from an existing cavalry unit be beneficial? A tank crew needs entirely different training than Cavalrymen would.

The horses are obviously not useful either.

Also tanks are very strong and it's prefered that they must be built from scratch rather than upgraded.

So the rule of thumb I'm using is that any unit which marks a major advancement or breakthrough in warfare or when the two units are otherwise fundamentally different (like cavalry and tanks), then the units cannot be upgraded in that way.

The same principle is at work with frigates not upgrading to ironclads, or ironclads to destroyers, or destroyers to AEGIS Cruisers.

Historicaly speaking many Frigates (and other military ships) were refit as ironclads. The image used in the game of the Monitor is indeed the most revolutionary design for the ironclads but it's most famos battle was with the Merrimac a confederate refit of a standard sailing ship.

I also forgot to mention that I _had_ given frigates the ability to upgrade to ironclads, but with my changes to the ironclad that would not have been a good idea. Ironclads now sink in the ocean (if I recall both the Monitor and the Virginia both sunk for non-combat reasons), and when you choose Upgrade To that means that unit cannot be built anymore. That would result in there being no ocean-going warships until later in the game, and that wouldn't make any sense.


On a historical note, the confederate ship was not called the Merrimac. The confederates capture a union frigate called the "Merrimac", which they then refitted into an ironclad and re-cristened the "Virginia". So in fact there was never really a battle of "The Monitor vs. the Merrimac", because the Merrimac was no longer an existing ship.


If the upgrade system was handled differently the frigate could be allowed to upgrade into the ironclad, but with the current system such a change would be highly undesirable.

It's DONE! Version 0.5 is released in all it's glory, but it's unfortunately too big for the forum file limit.


Working on finding a place to put it, so it will hopefully be up by the end of the day.

At first I thought of splitting it into seperate files, but then I realised that it would take 42 files to do that. That wouldn't work :D

So I uploaded to an account I had on Hypermart, and we'll just use that for the time being.

So here it is! Enjoy!

LWC for Civ3, v0.5 (http://crazyoddball.hypermart.net/civ3/index.html)

Plutarck, how come your mod is sooooo big (20.8 MB)!?

Didn't the Monitor sink because of a very large storm off of the coast moving with other ships? The only reason I recall that it sunk for was because it is so low to the water, the waves just got all on it.

Oh, and witht eh size thing, could you break it down to like pcitures, text, stuff like that. Being a 56 k'er it is a lot better to take little bites instead of the entire 20.8 mB all at once. Oh, and it looks quite good.

It's almost entirely because of the unit animations. I added it up and with JUST the unit pictures the zip'd size is 18+ megs! When the installer swallows everything together the size is 20 megs, and that's without even having it wrap-in the VM with the thing!


What I'm going to do in the coming day(s) is spread it out a bit or maybe with someone's help I could instead use a .bat file since all the animations actually already come with Civ3, they just aren't in the right spot.

Don't you just hate having to have unit animations?


Anyway, there is a problem with the mod. I failed to include ONE single folder, which is the folder for the Pioneer. And just it weighs in at 535,000 bytes, which explains why the blasted thing is so large.


I'm going to have to get really creative here, but I'm confident I can complain about it...err, fix it.



I reccommend using the download manager GetRight, which allows you to resume the file if it gets cut off.

Regardless, just go to the page listed in the first post and download the patch linked there.

*sigh*

Installed the big mod, looked nice, however, several turns into the game, I got this:

CIVILIZATION3 caused an invalid page fault in
module CIVILIZATION3.EXE at 015f:00403046.
Registers:
EAX=00000000 CS=015f EIP=00403046 EFLGS=00010202
EBX=005c5818 SS=0167 ESP=00abfc30 EBP=01570eb0
ECX=0ad9877c DS=0167 ESI=0ad9877c FS=3fe7
EDX=00001894 ES=0167 EDI=00000000 GS=0000
Bytes at CS:EIP:
8b 80 3c 01 00 00 83 c1 58 8b 50 04 52 e8 38 71
Stack dump:
00000000 004063e3 00000000 00874438 0ad9877c 00000002 0ad98610 00000000 01f35ca0 005c5818 bff52d9d 0ad983f0 00abfc9c 00592afb ffffffff 004eab20


I tried again, same result. My folder is called civ3 instead of civilization III, so I copied the files after they were installed... would this mess anything up, since it's just the root directory? Anyway, I really like the mod....

EDIT: I uninstalled/ reinstalled Civ3 to make the folder name correspond with the mod, no change. It's usually around 2800-2750 bc when the crash occurs. I usually have two cities, a few warriors, a settler, a few workers, building barracks/coracle/warrior.

Got it. After reading the changelo(n)g, I am very astounded as to how much time you have put into this. It looks very good. But my question is, "Can you load a new set of rules into a game that you are playing that is saved?" I am curious about this because I never researched Printing press (which is now a required era turning advance). Also, I have almost no resources and with the massive requirement on steel, I shall have trouble bringing my units from one continent to the other to beat my enemy as I have no oil so my most advanced naval unit for now is a galleon, and I am in the modern era. While I'm thinking of it, did you change oil's appearance rate as there is only one source on my map (that I know of) and it is deep in my enemies homeland. It would be impossible to take it, because my most advanced units that I can build are rifelmen and artillery. SO I couldn't build any armor (including modern which I have the tech for) or any advanced naval units except nuclear subs and AEGIS which is a good way away.
If you could answer those two questions I would be thankful. And great mod once again.

jcarkeys: Thanks, I have put a lot of time and thought into it :)

1) There are some changes which can be applied to already existing save games, but with the changes in the LWC .bic you will be unable to play old saved games. When you try and load a saved game Civ3 will inform you of the rules conflict, and it will put you back to the main menu without loading the game.

So to play with the mod you'll need to start a new game.

2) I've left all the appearance/disappearance ratios of Oil alone. The only thing I've changed is what units require Oil.

Note: In the current version the new unit Transport Submarine requires Oil to build, which is an error. It will not require Oil in the next version.


Starkist: I believe you're suffering from the Pioneer error. Download the patch on the download page listed in the first post in the thread, and that will probably cure you're problem.

If not be sure to let me know so I can try to track it down.

i downloaded the mod but when i try and install it i get an error message say it cant find a suitable java machine or something do i have to download one or is there another way to fix this?

I had the feeling this might pop up if I didn't just include the java VM, but it adds 5 megs to the file size.

However, there's a simple solution. Just go here: Java 2 Virtual Machine (http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/jre/)

Download and install that and you'll not only be able to use the mod, but also you'll be able to run just about every Java application and applet there is.

Plutarck:

couple of comments for you. However, I will start by saying your mod looks excellent, i have yet to try it, but based on the thread, it would seem to make the game much more playable. I am looking forward to downloading it. Keep up the good work!

First comment: Jet fuel is by no means mainly synthetic as you state in your readme.txt, it very much relies on a hydrocarbon base, which in this case, is commonly known as oil. Jet fuel contains more than 90 percent kerosene, which is a petroleum distallate i.e. oil. Apache helicopters, stealth bombers, and M1 Abrams tanks all use jet fuel. Anyways, the point of this is that any sort of flying since the dawn of air travel until the far future will require oil and lots of it. Obviously you can do what you will with your mod, but i would recommend changing it accordingly.

Secondly: Cavalry and Tanks are very closely related. Being that my original branch was armor (I currently serve in an air assault infantry battalion), my glorious branch of accession (armor/tanks) has its roots in the 'cav'. Actually, many modern armor units are often called 'cav'. While the technical training is obviously very different, the usage and tactics for quick moving, lethal units have not changed very much for the past 2-300 years. Horse calvalry units were and modern armor is used for shock and speed and cannot hold ground worth a damn. That's what us infantrymen are far. In fact, I would say the difference between a musketman and a modern infantryman is far greater in spirit than that between a tanker and a calvaryman.

Anyways, the point of this is to recommend that you have an upgrade path from cavalry to armor. I would make it very expensive, but there just the same.

finally, i would say add that all modern military units would require a new resource called 'paper' which could only be found in forests. Believe me, if the US Army ran out of paper, we would cease to function!!! ;)

thanks for your hard work and keep it up!

-k

:sniper:

Originally posted by Plutarck
Starkist: I believe you're suffering from the Pioneer error. Download the patch on the download page listed in the first post in the thread, and that will probably cure you're problem.[/B]

I got the patch and eerything is fixed. :) I've been playing for a while, that's why I haven't responded until now. Anyway, the problem must have been that the Americans or Zulus or somebody built a pioneer, even though my own civ didn't. Thanks for all your work!

Good God, Plutarck! I'm reading your changelog file, and I can't believe how much you have changed! I think I'll email Firaxis and tell them not only to include your modpack in the upcoming patch, but to take the game out of the shelves, repack them with a new updated manual, then release it again as Civ4 :) And, of course, I'll tell them to hire you. ;)

There were two things I didn't like, though. Colonialism and Imperialism as forms of government. Civilization has always used as a criterion of different governments different forms of choosing the leaders. Anarchy, despotism, monarchy, republic, communism, democracy, and fundamentalism are different mainly because the leaders are chosen differently (I know this is arguable for Republic/Democracy). Colonialism and Imperialism are not government forms - they are policies a government, be it a Monarchy, a Republic or a Democracy, may choose to follow.

Perhaps a Small Wonder with some of their characteristics would be more appropriate, something that would decrease war weariness and add some free units. I don't know what wonder that might be. Frankly, coming from a colonized nation myself (Brazil), I fail to see good things about colonialism/imperialism. Perhaps something like the East India Company. But that should have an economical effect as well, and I'm not sure what that might be.

Tell me what you think ;)

Oh yeah, I'm only talking about my gripes because I absolutely love the rest :)

I'm not sure if this is bad or whatever, but bear with me. I extracted the files to a temporary location to view the .bic. I was going through it and was looking at the different units. THen I got to one (can't remember) but it had unit icon number 84. I tried moving to a different unit, but it was asking for an integer from 1 to 83. It wouldn't let me move without changing it. Now my question is, does that work correctly in the game, or does it screw up? I haven't had time to check since I haven't finished my other game, but I figured I should ask before I install it. When is the new version you have hinted at coming out?

Just released version 0.6! Mostly bug fixes, so check the first post in this thread for details.

NOTE: You won't need a virtual machine them from now on. Due to some odd errors and possible compatability concerns I've just had the installer package the VM right along with it.


jcarkeys: Just now, but no real "additions" for now. Making sure everything is in fully working order as-is first.

The reason for that error is because the editor is looking at the default units_32.pcx file, which has only so many slots. Using PSP I added more slots to the image, so unless you go ahead and install that particular file the editor's use if icons will be screwy.

That at least works fine after it's installed :)


Faldrath:

Thanks! :love: :p


That is a very interesting point you make about the governments, and I hadn't ever heard that before. Hmm...I like the role the two governments fill, but perhaps finding a different name wouldn't be a bad idea.

I suppose an Imperialist government is kind of like having a Capitalist government. It makes sense historically (1500 to 1700 AD is often called the Imperial Age), but they do deviate from the government form of Civ3 itself. I'm not entirely sure that's a bad thing, however :)

But it's good to have it in mind. I'd like to hear some more opinions about that also, so if anyone has something to say feel free to jump in. The more the merrier ;)

Btw: Colonialism/Imperialism was far better for the host empire than for the colonised one, hehe.

I'm glad you like the changes, and thanks for the compliments :o


Starkist: Great! Glad it's working smoothly and that you're enjoying it :D


kincyc:

Thanks!

I'll definately take the bit about oil under advisement and at least change that bit on oil. However, I will most likely leave the requirements for oil off the post synthetic units due mostly to game balance. Also, while oil is clearly used in nearly all vehicles of any sort now adays, it doesn't have to be; oil is just cheaper than the alternatives, among other reasons.


On cavalry, that does concur with what I've been hearing lately. However, the problem is that there is no way to alter the cost for upgrading. The only factor seems to be the cost difference in the 2 units (at least, that's the main one).

The main reason I leave cavalry as the end of the line is otherwise you could put together a significant army, discover the appropriate tech, then next turn you have a full invasion force full of tanks that came out of no where.

If the upgrade cost was more editable I'd probably be in favor of it, but as-is it just wouldn't seem quite right and could allow a "Tank Rush" tactic where an opponent builds up a full force of cavalry, saves up cash throughout the game, then suddenly explodes out with a full invasion force worth of tanks.

It is also nice for historical accuracy that Cavalry will probably end up fighting alongside Tanks on the battlefield. If Cavs could be upgraded that would happen only if you were short on gold.

And lastly, being forced to create certain "landmark" units from scratch rather than upgrading them does nicely to prevent a "race to [strong unit here]" scenario from occurring. Then again, so does the flaky combat system, but that's neither here nor there ;)


Paper is a good idea for a resource though. "Allows creation of: Post Office, Politician, Paper Cuts"

Plutarck,

Can't get to your download page.

Runestar

I had the same problem as Starkist. Before I saw v.06 I reinstalled CivIII. Now I see his bug & your correction. Use refer to v.05 on the link. Is that correct? I assumed you just didnt change the name. In any case, when I try to download it it tells me I lack access prvileges. What gives?

I've had a chance to play v.5. Very nice. I have downloaded v.6 but haven't installed it yet. One thing about the new resources. One, cotton appeared WAY too often. It was pretty much a cotton world. I think that bonuses should be more frequent than strategic or luxury, but that was absurd. Second, the new horse resource (can't remember the exact name), it was not as rare as you hoped it would be and how early I got it I would have easily been able to swing the balance of the game. SO far, it has only disappeared once, and then it moved into the square directly adjacent to it. Also on the note of resources, would you be able to change how much coal appears? In the aformentioned game I only found one source of coal and that dried up after a few turns of use. Coal is very common in the "real" world. And in the game, without coal means without railroads which is a very big problem even for very advanced civs. Thanks once again as I love this mod, take this advice positively, not negatively. Thanks

Sonunfarightmogon!!

Here's something I just found in my email:

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We regret to inform you that your account
crazyoddball will be deleted from our servers
within the next 48 hours because it violates our
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Reason: Excessive bandwidth usage


It is for the above reason that we have been forced to
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It hasn't even been 10 hours since I put the thing up! Bastards! Bastards all of 'em!


But on an extremely funny note, just those files caused me to snap the 500MB bandwidth transfer cap in like 7 hours :D :D :D

Lost a few things of minor importance (including the stat file, grrr), but damn. I guess I know how popular it was now, hehe.

Of course this is pretty much extortion, largely caused by warez sites but mostly it's just plain extortion. It doesn't stop it from being funny though.



Ah well, I guess it's back to the freakin' drawing board. I think what I'm going to do is learn Batch File (.bat) programming and use it to copy/create the unit animations and files. That should allow me to keep the version updates down to less than 2-3MB in size, which can probably just be stored here on the site.


It might be a day or two to actually learn how to do that (never done it before, but I'm confident that my ability to overestimate my abililty is not illplaced *EG*), but I'll try to have a makeshift update solution available by tommarrow.


Don't you just hate it when this happens?


[edit]Oh, about the above post.

The thing is, I can't freakin' control how much cotton appears. The appearance ratio is totally greyed out on bonus resources, if you can believe it. It's only available on Plains, and I think the problem is the game trys to balance things out by trying to make cotton as common as all the other resources.

Not sure what to do about that.


And for the new resource, you might be right. I might have to make it even more rare, and I'll definately test that more thoroughly as soon as I get these hitches cleared up so people can actually download the thing :(

:cry:

The news on the front page and this whole thread compelled me to download the mod.

Please, for the love of your god, someone host it somewhere!!

i'll put up an FTP when i get home, if someone could upload it then other peepz can DL it (got a 2 GB up limit or so from my ISP ) it does have a pretty slow up (5-10 kbyte/sec) but at least we can distribute it.

Where do i get this modpac?

it was DLable from a site the maker put up, but his max data traffic was exceeded, so i am gonna put up an FTP or upload to my ISP in a few hours or so (somone will have to upload it for me first though), but that one will have to go down after about 1 GB (not so much data traffic allowed as i thought

Well first of all great mod, adds alot more interest to the game. Frankly i look for mods just to enhance Firax's sh!ty job on gameplay, so i think you did great almost everything within some exception (not that important)

About the bugs well i found out the PARTISAN unit and MERCENARY dont work first off all game crashes (because obviously their is no folder with files for them - i guess your forgot about it or something not sure) well i tried to fix it so i disabbled the new comming in 1772 tech Corporation i dissabled the mercenary but the game still crashes cant figure out why just seems its starts really to mess up on later stages of game.

Peace

Hey there,

I'm in the middle of my first couple of (unmodded) games at the moment, but I have a question for Plutarck about the mod.

Have you introduced any changes into the zone of control rules in this mod? If so, what have the changes been from the original Civ3 rules?

I'm interested, because having read other posts about ZOC within these forums, I think the whole issue is much more subtle than just a on or off decision... I was wondering whether you'd taken any of it as input.

I'm sure I saw something about this in a post earlier, but I have been unable to find it... I'd RTFM but I can't download it yet :D

Looking forward to getting hold of this mod when you get some bandwidth...

Cheers, :goodjob:
N.

vodka1983:

...at first I thought you were full of it, but I checked to make sure...and it turns out that you're right. I can't believe no one reported it as missing before!

I counted the unit folders and it was exactly right, so I figured it would work just fine. But it turns out I somehow accidentally selected Mounted Warrior and Nuclear Submarine folders instead of Mercenary and Partisan unit folders.

This explains the crash that had been experienced when trying to upgrade to the Partisan.


So we'll be skipping straight up to version 0.7 full installation to be totally sure all the animations get done properly so the game won't crash like that.


KloePoek: I'll upload it for you if someone that offered (name will be released once they've totally accepted so I don't prematurely force them into doing it if they change their mind :D ) can't get it put more perminately online.


nedski: I've kept the current use of Zone of Control in the game intact as it seems reasonable for the ones that have it. It's possible that not all units that should have it actually have it or not all that do have it should, but I don't know of any such cases at this moment.

Can't D/L the mod, which is unfortunate 'cause I want to see the new unit rules. (can SpecOps disguise their nationality? That would kick butt!) However, I can comment from the readme, so here goes...

"...having Scientists who can't read doesn't seem very sensible."

On the contrary, most early science comes from religious guides and mystics, many of whom can't read. It seems perfectly reasonable to discover currency before reading and writing.

I'd argue against increasing the tax collector effectiveness. Tax collectors get the improvements counted in their bonuses, so I'd stick to that. But the Scientist increase is much needed. (Why did they decide a Scientist doesn't generate more output with a University and Research Lab available?)

"Forest value in shields changed from 10 to 15."

This will increase the use of IFE. Do you have a counter for that? Perhaps increasing the time required to plant?

Love the Palace changes.

Perhaps instead of having the library reduce corruption, you should have a bank reduce it? That's my preferred model. Administration of finances makes cheating on them much harder. Plus, I think banks should increase luxury. People tend to underestimate just how important a bank is, but reliable transport of major capital resources, and the opportunity to earn interest is a big deal. The Medici banks were heavily responsible for the Renaissance, but they're trivialized in the game.

Police station reducing corruption -- yeah, I get the joke. But it's still the right thing to do. They *do* reduce crime, and that's certainly a big part of what corruption represents.

Amen on the changes to Leonardo's. In fact, I tend to think the Workshop should be even *more* culture. Bach's Cathedral is 5. Surely the greatest figure of the Renaissance should be comparable.

Wall Street -- how about adding a +50% to luxury or tax output? It's no secret that cities with major exchanges (New York, London, Tokyo, Toronto, Hong Kong) all have massive influx of capital based on trading activity. If I had my way, I'd add *both* tax and luxury from Wall Street. Building a financial trading center for your empire should be critical as of the Industrial age. You could offset the new powers of it by making it require The Corporation. (How do you have a stock exchange without a concept of public companies?)

While on the topic of improvements, I read elsewhere about Factories and Manufacturing Centers having a negative impact on culture. I very much don't like this idea. The game has few enough ways to increase culture as it is. To take away culture based on making a city more capable of producing it is strongly counter-intuitive to me. New York used to be a major manufacturing center, but it's cultural heritage is very strong. What about London? Tokyo? San Francisco? I understand what you're trying to express here -- but the game itself doesn't allow enough cross-city support for this to make sense. You *must* build factories and manufacturing centers in your major cities in late game if you want to build wonders. How can a cultural mecca keep up with out them?

Resources in general -- there's a lot of pushback on this site about resource wars. Personally, I *like* the limitations of the resources and the fact that you can be forced to go to war over them. I think that's a major new dimension to Civ 3. What might make sense, though, is to allow for earlier reveals on some resources, so that you can make decisions about what you'll need later. For example, instead of Steam Power revealing coal on the map, maybe Chemistry should (would make that research more useful, too) and perhaps Steam Power should reveal oil. That way, you can find the resources before they become quite so crucial to unit development. Personally, I *hate* the fact that I can discover Steam Power, then can't build railroads until I've found some coal, too. It's not like people didn't know what coal was before railroads. It simply wasn't important to have it until then.

I think if you made those adjustments, you could refrain from a lot of the other resource changes you've made, because people could plan better. The trade, diplomacy and expansion aspects of Civ 3 are an exciting new aspect of gameplay. Let's not immediately undermine them by reversing the strategic resource concept completely. Let's just allow for better planning by revealing the resources before you actually *need* them.

I like Jungles at 1/1/0 rather than 1/2/0. You should be encouraged to clear and replant them for maximum productivity. Otherwise, they're just forests with disease risks. Real jungles have a lot of unharvestable stuff in them that gets in the way.

Thank you for the civ-specific upgrade fix. That was needed in a big way. The current behavior is very frustrating.

Infantry rubber requirement: shoes. That's what drives it. Ask an infantryman how important shoes are. Don't fight the resource requirements for modern armies -- it's a crucial aspect of the new game. A civ *must* get those resources to keep up militarily. Just make it so you can see rubber sooner. Like, say, with Industrialization or Refining. That will give the resource deprived the opportunity to secure it before it becomes crucial to military upkeep.

I do *NOT* like the approach of making late weaponry available without Oil. You can run a modern mechanized force of any kind without Oil. Not a navy, not an air force, not tanks, not artillery. You just *can't*. Oil is absolutely vital to modern warfare. If you've gotten that far and don't have it, then pick a non-military victory path. Again, if your concern is that you can't see oil until it's too late, then make it visible sooner in the tech-tree. That way you can use cavalry and infantry to secure oil supplies in advance of being able to build tanks. That, I think, offers better game balance.

Transport unit change -- yuck. Put it back, please. *OR* make it possible to airlift settlers and workers. Personally, I'd prefer the latter. The basic problem is that transoceanic expansion requires manually carting settlers and workers across. Sending a transport with 2 less of those makes for a lot more transPacific voyages. And modern transport ships can cart 5000 troops -- that doesn't make 8 game units seem unreasonable.

But really, I'd prefer to airlift settlers and workers. Build a beachhead city in a faraway land, rush an airport, then airlift your further expansion units. Much better approach.

Tangent -- have you considered creating a C-130 unit? Aerial transport unit that you could load up, then rebase far away? That would be awesome. You could make it low capacity for balance issues. The real thing can only carry two tanks anyway. Just give it a capacity of 1. It can carry a single worker crew, or a single tank unit, or a group of marines. But that's it.

Cruise Missles -- the Tomahawk is actually a long-range cruise missle. Earlier models were much shorter range, though obviously much more than an artillery shell. I'd be a fan of 4 or 5 here. They don't have the reach of an F-15. (The part that sucks here is Stealh Bombers -- they should have a range of 16 at least. The stealths over Afghanistan now are staged out of Missouri! Let's hear it for mid-air refueling.)

on Government Types -- I'd love to see a government that increased production, but discouraged war, even more than Democracy. Sort of a Libertarian model, starting with Democracy, but adding 3/unit support cost, a worker rate of 4, very high assimilation and resistance, and no drafting allowed. I'd make diplomats Elite, but Spies conscripts as well. You can investigate cities and steal tech like nobody's business, but you are utterly incompetant at destroying a rival's supplies. Give it some thought.

Was that enough feedback for you? :) And I haven't even downloaded the actual mod yet!

How about, after the discovery of the Corporation, if you could produce a new unit, very expensive, called the "Corporate President." That unit could be set to have leader attributes, and thus could rush wonders.

I'm thinking, maybe, a shield cost of 60 and a population cost of 4. Something you shouldn't want to build a stockpile, but something to help non-militaristic civilizations get access to Wonder-rushing. It's so freaking hard to get a great leader when you aren't out fighting all the time!

Just a thought.

Ooohhhh... Corporate President. Oooohhh aaaahhhh. Well, I agree that that would be nice. But why would you want to build somehting that costs as much as some wonders, and cost population? You should make it like 11 population points and cost oh, about the same as a I don't know. But something that is average for the time frame that it is discovered in. The high population cost would create a slowdown in production afterwards that would prevent it from building at all after. It would also be only capable for cities over 12. Having that little population also leaves you more vulnerable to attacks (since no Metropolis bonus). My thoughts.

Flynn: First of all, I really appreciate all the feedback. It resulted in some consideration that made me change quite a many different things and unearthed some other bugs and errors.


I'm going to go ahead and upload the changelog at the end of this post, so check that for what I've come up with so far. But to the points I didn't mention in the changelog:


Scientists: I'm going to try and add new specialist types soon and the first scientist will be made a Mystic, later the researcher, etc.

Tax Collectors: Do they really get a bonus that the Scientists don't get? I'm pretty sure all the entertainers get treated the same way...but I'm not 100% sure.

Factorys etc: The main reason for negative culture is to show that those are the opposite of desirable and tend to suppress the currently used definition of "culture" (which is only desirable culture, not undesirable). New York use to/still does have alot of industry, true, but is that really considered a positive aspect of their culture? Most people want to go to NY for reasons unrelated to factorys, and tend to prefer the areas where there aren't factorys.

Even with Factory, M. Plant, and Coal Plant in a major city you should still get positive culture, but it will of course be noticably reduced. With the many other culture boosts that are available a culture victory may become too easy, and it fits that people don't move to Pittsburg because of the impressive smoke stacks.

The only real use for that culture will be for a culture victory as the places you build them in probably won't actually increase your borders in a useful manor, and I believe that culture reversion has more to do with citys bordering your city and not the citys culture itself.

In other words, there is a reason not to build them, just like there is in real life. Adding an unhappy face to some more wouldn't be out of the question, but I think it's ok for now.


Special Ops Team: It's stats in v0.7 will be 14 cost (the highest of any land unit), 18/10/1, Amphibious, All Squares As Roads, and can Airdrop, but made available with Smart Weapons. It's powerful, but does come quite late in the game. A sickly excellant combo with Transport Submarine for clandestine but effective invasions.


Jungles: That is a good point about jungles, but I'm not quite sure whether or not to change them. Hm...I'd like to hear some more debate on them before I change it, so I'll leave it alone in this version.


Resources: I too like the idea of resource wars (it adds a little excitement to the game), but the problem is with "do or die" resources where you have basically lost the game if you don't have them. The only two that really fit that are Aluminum and Oil, and I think I've trimmed that trouble a little while increasing the importance of some other resources.

In the next version I'd like to make Spaceship parts that require rubber require rubber OR oil (synthetic rubber is derived from oil, I believe), but I dunno. I think I'll just leave it as is since the spaceship victory is easy enough as it is. I actually want to make it a little harder with a future update, mainly by adding another resource.


Here's a question: Titanium. How rare is it compared to things like oil and rubber? I think I'll add it soon, but I want to get some idea of it's rarity in real life first.


Shoes: I just can't quite buy that without rubber boots that you can't field Infantry. Are leather boots really that inferior? But I do also hear it's for things like seals and containers for ammo, while before they used Tin which would rust. Which makes me think it wouldn't be a bad candidate for copying but making weaker/more expensive if you don't have rubber.


Transport: Actually, I fix both in 0.5 I believe. Units are now airliftable and the new Modern Transport fills the missing role of large capacity transports.

And does colonization still even happen towards the end of the industrial age? Heck, the AI manages to fill 90%+ of the available land on the Huge setting before I can even make it out of the middle ages. But I imagine military invasions is the main use that would be reduced.


Government: Good idea for a government, actually. I'll probably add it when I finally get back into an Adding position and not just Fixing, hehe.


Non-shop transports: I really like the idea of a transport plane and I'd thought of it back before I could actually add units as well as a Transport Truck, but there's one problem I recently thought of and that's why I didn't add them in 0.5

Won't the AI be unable to figure out how to use them? There is a Naval Transport tactic, but none for land.

But yeah, there IS an Air Transport strategy...probably will be the next unit I add, but I actually I'd like to wait until Air Superiority actually works.


Buildable Leader: Leeia Coca (wrong spelling, surely) sound good? Hehe.

However, I do like the idea of a buildable leader. However it would probably need even higher cost, perhaps 60 cost but maybe as much as 6 pop points. The leader is able to build the 100 cost wonders (1000 shields) for only 60, so a 400 shield savings would need a rather steep cost. Would be good to hear some more about this.

Personally I'd like a Unique Unit to be possible, or an even Build Once Per Civ unit. Of course that is yet another thing that ain't possible :mad:



Thanks again for all the input! Just imagine when you'll be able to actually play the thing :D

Just my 2 cents on a buildable leader....

Someone mentioned what would be the point of a buildable leader equal to the value of a wonder.

Well, you can build multiple leaders ahead of the discovery of the wonder. If I had been a bully to everyone else in the game I'd be a little concerned about the UN wonder if I hadn't disabled it. I'd want to make sure I have a leader available just for that one.

As far as reality goes....well, I havn't experienced more than one great leader (been holding on to mine for over 20 years of war just to see and I'm waiting for the UN wonder in 2 turns). In reality, you could have more than one great leader per civ. Most of the Leader's names in the game had other Leaders mentioned living at the same time. Weren't Patton and MacArthur around at about the same time? Eisenhower too.

Just a couple of thoughts. I've been watching this thread quite closely. Keep up the great work Plutarck. I think you're the only one who is going to save us over the next while until "They" the unmentionables, get thier act together and get a patch out. But that has been discussed elsewhere.
:goodjob:

I really love the idea all along since you started the mod in the very beginning:)

In fact I have been modifying my own game ever since and in time I hope I can post one here myself (I am trying out with new units and new graphic stuff....an hour a turn on late game stages doesn't help the testing on my own mod:( )

I have made certain noteable change in my own game as in: Almost everyunit need iron once its discovered. Same goes for Oil. The only trouble is it then become like what was mentioned in the last post, a do or die resources. It would be good if resources can be accumulated once you connect it with a road just like gold and used as you produce the units. This will reflect the true world where cutting you off from an iron mine today does not mean you can no longer make sword tomorrow:rolleyes: This is very much true for gold as even if the AI kill all you road your amount in the bank is not affected.

I know this is just an idea (I can't find anything in the editor to allow this), what I would love to see is not only unit need resources to make, they need it to run :D One way of representing this is all unit that requires Oil will get their strenght halved or movement point halved if you run out of Oil (I guess only Firaxis can fix this). In fact, I thing Oil should affect the movement (German would have fare better in their last counter offensive in WWII if they have more Oil!!) while other resources like Iron or Rubber could drop the strenght to half or at least the unit cannot recover to full if damaged (representing a lack of replacement part or use of inferior parts)

In fact, if Firaxis is willing, it can even throw in the supply line thing where a unit with no link to a home city can never recover (a unit within says 2 tiles of a friendly unit is considered to be supplied? just a thought). I know I am getting closer to a military simulation but then again most part of Civ history are WAR. Its either you or the AI.

Now that you have whetted our appitites, I am hoping that you get the file download issues resolved SOON. For the first time since I started playing CivIII, I have been able to somewhat keep up with the AI at Prince level, and then crashed when I tried top build partisan.

Love the work you have done, can't wait till v0.7 is actually available for download.

I only read this thread around 3 days ago. I'm dieing to get my hands on this MOD. Please for the love of all things Civ, someone put it up on Kazaa. It will be quick to DL once a few of us get it.

Just post the name of the file so it is easy to find.

I can't find where to download the file.

Read the changelog. Thanks for the nod. :)

What do I have to do to convince you that making the strat resources earlier is the way to go? It maintains the interesting element of resource wars, but allows resource stranded civs to have lead time.

Here's where I think the problem lies: When you play the earth map(s), you get an advantage in that its fairly common knowledge where a lot of the major resources are. Oil is obviously in the middle east, in Texas, in Mexico, in central Russia. Iron is obviously in most of the major European and American mountain ranges. And so on.

The problem is random maps, where you might end up stranded without access to a late-game-critical resource.

Now, there's two lines of thought on this: 1) make those resources less critical by adjusting the unit requirements, etc.; or 2) tough luck, it's the nature of the game and forces you to hedge your strategies for victory.

Well, I'm saying that I think there's a compromise. By revealing the resources earlier than the associated units, you give random map players the opportunity to plan ahead and ensure access to the resources they need for whatever strat they've planned. It doesn't have to be *way* early... just enough so that you see the resource, can deploy units to secure it, because a neck-and-neck civ already has units based on it deployed.

It's not unrealistic and it satisfies both basic objectives.

Some ideas for timelines...

Iron: visible with Bronze Working
Horses: visible with Warrior Code
Coal: visible with Chemistry (or Metallurgy, which would make this relatively low-value tech much better)
Oil: visible with Industrialization
Saltpeter: hmmmm... not sure here. Perhaps Feudalism? Maybe Engineering?
Aluminum: Refining
Uranium: Atomic Theory

Think about it. Let's discuss it. I'm really convinced that this is the best way to go and I want to convince you. :) The LWC mod is shaping up to be the most promising mod coming out.

The LWC Mod v0.7 if FINALLY AVAILABLE FOR DOWNLOAD! Woohoo!

Many praises to Kolyana as listed in the first post in this thread :D


Gotta do some other stuff but I'll respond to other post later. Just wanted to get this out there ASAP!

Downloading now, :goodjob:

Thanks to the host Kolyana , and to Plutarck for making this marvelous mod. I almost hate dropping my current game but I will just to start fresh with these mods.

Runestar

i already have 0.5 version and i want to upgrade to o.7 but how do i do that with out downloadin the hole thing again u say to use the upgrade thing but i guess im a completer retard
how do i upgrade!!

About time to rest for the day, but here is what I've come up with so far for version 0.8.

As you can see Flynn, you've convinced me to try out moving the resources earlier :D

We'll see how it goes, hehe. I've also played alot with the Modern Age tech tree and changed the Spaceship Victory so it should be more difficult, require more research, and take longer to complete.


Here's what I have. It's a whole mess of changes, and I think it's a major step forward for the game:

11/27/01:

-Space Ship Victory: The SS Victory seems to be too easy and end too quickly. I believe I have rectified this with the following changes. I had a much better and longer explanation but my freakin' computer crashed before I saved...grrrr. They should be mostly self-explanatory.

-All SS pieces: Cost 4 more to build.

-SS Cockpit: Buildable with Robotics, not Space Flight. Everyone should be in stasis, and even with "common" space shuttle missions everything is almost totally controlled by computers. If you're going to Alpha Centauri you aren't going to be driving the thing with a stick or using a calculator to figure out which way you should go. Thus, Robotics is required.

-SS Stasis Chamber: Buildable with Genetics, not Synthetic Materials. Genetics is a kind of "Advanced Medical Research" tech, and putting someone in stasis requires such understanding.

-SS Storage/Supply: Buildable with Superconductor, not Synthetic Materials. Part of what is stored is Project ARK, a collection of more than 150 samples of lifeforms to be used in terraforming a planet and bringing it to early norms. These "samples" are most likely embryos and genetic information, which probably require both Synthetic Materials and Genetics to properly manipulate and store, thus SS Storage/Supply should probably require both techs to actually build it, so while it doesn't require a Superconductor to build the thing I think it's the best place to put it.

-Modern Tech Tree: I am changing the modern tech tree to further balance the Space Ship victory, improve real-world accuracy, and make it more enjoyable too. I'm also moving around some Modern units for similar reasons and to reflect the change in the tech tree.

-Superconductor: Formerly requiring Space Flight and Fission to research, it now requires Synthetic Materials and Miniaturization. SM is needed to conduct the testing and manufacture of superconductors and Miniaturization is required for the powerful computers and advanced electronics which are needed to even want to look for a superconductor, much less actually develop one.

Space Flight and Fission simply make no real-world sense as requirements, and in game-play the modern tech tree is very screwy. The Recycling path is totally unconnected to any other technologys...suffice it to say that it's just a big mess. This change improves real world accuracy and many elements of gameplay.

-Synthetic Materials: Now requires Computers to research in addition to Recycling.

-Nuclear Power: Now requires Computers in addition to Fission.

-Advanced Naval Warfare: Now requires Rocketry and Nuclear Power.

-The Laser: Now requires Miniaturization instead of Computers to research, in addition to it's Nuclear Power requirement.

-Robotics: Now requires only The Laser to research. Because The Laser now requires Miniaturization, Robotics no longer needs it as a requirement.

-Nuclear Submarine: Becomes available with Nuclear Power, not Fission.

-Modern Destroyer: Becomes available with Nuclear Power, not Fission.

-Modern Transport: Becomes available with Computers, not Miniaturization.

-Coracle: Now has 0 attack. I didn't think of it till Smazza brought up that it might be too good and annoys other civs when it's there (he had the idea for a raft unit, but I prefer the Coracle). I forgot that I could give it 0 attack, and it makes sense anyhow. The only way to attack in a Coracle is to get out and swim over to the other boat, so it makes sense to me. This also means Barbarian Galleys can attack you and you can't attack back, hehe. That's what you get for puddlin around on a twig.

-Resource Discovery: Due to the arguments from Flynn I have decided to give the idea of making resources visible earlier a chance. Due to some of his reccommended placements I feel better that it will work, and I also thought of something.

The placement of resources is now more based upon when people began to think a resource could be useful somehow, but hadn't quite decided what to do with the stuff. For instance with iron it had already been discovered and experimented with Bronze Working, but bronze was the prefered use. It wasn't until techniques improved and more smiths starting playing around with iron that it started being used to create anything, so now you can see the resource Iron with the advent of Bronze Working.

I have also changed Wine and Incense, which are luxury resources, to not being visible immediatly. But they are soon discovered...more on that below.

-Iron: Visible with Bronze Working instead of Iron Working.

-Saltpeter: Visible with Invention instead of Gunpowder. This is a hard one...anyone have a better idea for it?

-Coal: Visible with Metallurgy instead of Steam Power. This is mostly to make Metallurgy more important to research, but coal is really a charcoal like substance which surely must have been experimented with in the process of metallurgy, even if they never did find the stuff very important.

-Oil: Available with Industrialization instead of Refining. Just reading the Description in the civilopedia makes this one make sense. Crude oil had it's uses and was experimented with as a fuel during Steam Power and Industrialization, but coal was clearly the prefered fuel of choice. After refining this began to change of course, and it makes best all-around sense to give it with Industrialization.

-Rubber: Available with Electricity instead of Replacable Parts. Rubber was useful for a very long time, but it makes a really great insulator for electrical cords and wires. Makes sense to me!

-Aluminum: Available with Mass Production instead of Rocketry. I'm trying to make it coincide with when the most effective method for producing aluminum was discovered in the late 1800s, and Mass Production seems to fit in with other uses of it also. The world supply of tin didn't cause aluminum to be heavily developed until quite a while later, so it shouldn't be needed for units earlier. This method of making aluminum requires electricity, but that would be too early for it to be found MP seems like the perfect place to me.

Any better ideas?

-Uranium: Available with Atomic Theory instead of Fission. Discovered in the late 1700s, uranium is one of the most valuable metals in the world...at least now adays. Seems a perfect fit with Atomic Theory when people started spending a lot of time playing with glowing rocks and trying to figure out what they could use them for.

On a sepperate note, isn't uranium used for the manufacture of advanced conventional weapons? Hm...

-Wines: Now available with Pottery. It makes sense even though animal skins were the main container for wines, beer in fact was stored in pots in ancient egypt. I still want improvements to produce resources so I could make a Brewery which turned Barley (strategic resource would be best) into the luxury resource of Beer. So many possibilitys...maybe in Civilization 4? Riiiight...sure, let's just keep telling ourselves that.

-Incense: Now available with Mysticism. Probable the best fit with Ceremonail Burial, this still makes sense in that the primary use of incense is religious/spiritual based and I wanted to have another reason to research Mysticism.

-The Oracle: Now availabie with Polytheism instead of Mysticism.

The main reason is to make it available a little later and help give more value to Polytheism. I think an Elephant Rider kind of unit should really go in Polytheism too and perhaps change Ivory to being Elephants. I'm not sure if you can just leave it as a luxury resource or not...would be nice though, and I could set the appearance ratio of it too. It's an idea, but we'll leave it till a later date for more consideration.

Anyhow, the real-world reason for this is that The Oracle became used because of the more widespread polytheistic belief systems of Rome/Greece. Polytheism really was just an advancement on the original "mysticism" (note: common day defiinition of "mystic" and "mysticism" is most often totally different than this historical definition. The currently used definition is: Mysticism, noun - 1. Immediate consciousness of the transcendent or ultimate reality or God. The experience of such communion as described by mystics. 2. A belief in the existence of realities beyond perceptual or intellectual apprehension that are central to being and directly accessible by subjective experience.), and thus The Oracle best fits into Polytheism.

ok no worries i found it maybe theres hope for me yet and thx for what looks like an awesome mod:egypt: :scan: :crazyeyes :confused: :eek: :p :( :) :goodjob: :cry:

Woohoo!

Now I can go to bed! :)

I'll download and try it out tomorrow Plutarck. Glad I could be convincing.

Aluminum -- Mass Production works for me. Plus you can throw the whole Aluminum can thing in with it. :) (I thought about suggesting Aluminum with Recycling, just for kicks.)

And thanks for the effort to make the SS win harder. It's really kinda my eternal fallback in the game. "Oh no! I'm going to get my ass kicked! Quick, build a space ship!" :)

Hi,
Plutarck, where is the link to download your mod?

Hi,

Got an error message when I tried to install it.

" The magic number did not match "

" Please get another copy of the installer and try again. "

My Civ 3 game path is

D:\program files\inforgrames interactive\civilization 3

Would the D drive be messing it up?

Batch files are nice......I'm just not a windoze guy....

Thanks for the mod though. Both my wife and I are excited to try it. :goodjob:

No idea what that means...but don't select the Civ3 folder itself, just the Infogrames Interactive folder, which is one level above the Civilization III folder.

So just use the default path but change the letter from C: to D:.

Hopefully that'll work.

I'm still having the same problem after moving it into the infogrames folder. :(
I can't change the path as it locks up into that error message right after I double-click on it to run it.:eek:
The program runs like .3 seconds then errors. (Yes, I've timed it :p )
Any suggestions?
I used to be a computer "geek" but then I left civilization, the real one, for 4 years and when I got back, changed majors because I was sooooo far behind.
So any advice just treat me like I know nothing about computers. :(

I'm still looking forward to the mod though....

Hm...I really haven't a clue what's wrong there, and the ZeroG.com site doesn't list it or anything else. Hmf.

Here's something to try. Pick a folder, any folder, on your hard drive. Doesn't matter which, and just try to "install" the mod into that directory. Play around with different ones, including just picking a totally new one, and see if it will actually do it for you.

If so you can then just copy out the Civilization III folder and drop the files onto the ones you already have in your game's actual directory.


Screwy, certainly, but it might just work.

Why not add a "clean" factory or a famous one, that adds culture, there are alot of factory visits and people are proud to work at the clean advanced ones. I would suggest, that from factory there should be "modern or clean factory" similar to changing powerplants from waste to less waste. I think this would be really good, up to you how to decide on how to put it in the game.

Hey I noticed special forces don't use rail even when they got a chance to. This slows them down somewhat. I don't know if this was designed or if it was for other reasons?

Runestar

I believe that's a dumb bug in the game, because Special Ops Team has the "all terrain as road" flag. I wasn't aware that it would mean "even railroad squares".

I suppose the Partisan, Scout, and Explorer are all the same way. Is that correct?

Hmm...definately annoying.

Great job on the modpack!!! Im playing it now and love it so far. Dont know if I found a minor glitch or not being its my 1st game with the new mod.. but my resource distribution really sucks (which I know can happen sometimes), but what was interesting is that I was swamped with cotton and thats it! It was like the computer distributed it as if it was a tradable resource (i.e. groupd of 3 or 4 all close together) and put nothing else in the area...

Again... may have just been one of those games.... but has anyone else seen any cotton side effects like this in any other games?

Other than that I havent found any glitches yet!! Great mod!

Another unit idea:

Enviornmentalist:
workers that can only clean up pollution, plant trees, and pillage (i.e. greenpeace getting pissed) and possible even giving them stealth ability (to represent differebt enviromental groups that have no true national affiliation but are radicals all over the world.

Keep up the good work!! Firaxis should hire you or commisson you!!!

Hey Plutarck,

I must admit that I still haven't played 0.7... My girlfriend said "No way you'll install that thing before I finish my civ", so... I'm waiting :D

I don't know if I'll like the earlier resource discovery, though. I think it might remove one very important (and fun) factor of the game, if you are able to plan ahead on resources. I don't even like the fact that we are able to view the whole tech tree from the start... I like the cold chill you get when, after discovering Steam Power, and being anxious to build railroads, you find out that you have no coal... :) (yeah, call me a masochist, I don't care :b)

Another thing: don't put elephants, or you'll kill the Indians :) But if you're changing the Oracle to Polytheism, then you'd better put its expiring date a bit ahead as well (or have you already done this? I can't remember...)

Last but not least, are you still considering changing imperialism/colonialism from governments to a small wonder? Think about this:

The East (or West) India Company:
- less war weariness (10%?)
- one (two?) more units for free
- 20 gold per turn (maybe a bit more)
- Available with Colonialism

I think it's more accurate to have a government, be it what it will, that decides to go into a colonialist spree, then builds this wonder, than a whole government geared towards colonialism/imperialism. No one says that Portugal or England had a colonialist government. Portugal had an absolute monarchy with a colonialist policy, England had a constitutional monarchy with an imperialist policy.

*checks if his girlfriend has finished her civ*

Darn...

I got to the point of building a Nuclear submarine in v0.7 of the mod and crashed. Could this be another possible missing graphics folder problem?

In general though, I really like the changes in this version. It is much more playable than the as-shipped version of the game. I do still see a problem in distribution of strategic resources. In my current game, I share a standard size map with 4 other nations and fully occupy the largest continent. There is NO oil on this continent and the other Civs (especially Babylon, which has at least 3 of the available oil resources) are too backwards to even know they have a resoource so I cannot trade with them. I am trying to win with a scientific, diplomatic or cultural victory, so going to war over it is not an option.

Could the instance of oil be a bit more random, like your mighty stallion -- in reality, oil fields are discovered and then depleted over time. Making them more random in their appearance and dissapearance would make the game more realistic and probable balance the situation out better -- just a thought

Plu, great mod, playing it as I speak..err write. I was wondering if it's possible to incorporate another map with this mod? Basically I want to use an earth map with your mod; is that possible? Point me in the right direction.

Ol'Lincoln:

That was actually a version conflict. I'm guessing you uninstalled v0.6, or something to that effect, and that caused the Nuclear Submarine folder to be uninstalled along with it. It's because I accidentally included the Nuclear Submarine folder in that installation, but that's fixed in v0.7


The easiest way to fix it is uninstall/reinstall Civ3, then reinstall the mod again. Or you could copy the Nuclear Attack Sub folder, rename it to Nuclear Submarine, then rename the .ini file inside to Nuclear Submarine, then the game should work fine.

Nuclear Submarine is actually a default unit in the game, so the folder is included with the Civ3 game either way.


Unfortunately I can't control how spaced out resources are. I really dislike it, but unfortunately I can't control how the game clumps resources together. I can only effect how many of them there are.

However, I like the idea of making Oil be depleted alot more. Oil wells dry up all the time causing new wells to need drilling. After all, if oil didn't get used up then they wouldn't be after ANWAR :)

I think i'll try making it deplete alot more and see how that goes. That way if you don't have access to oil there's a reasonable chance that you might "discover" some in your own backyard.


Faldrath:

Haha, there's always a downside to not being the only one that plays Civ3 :D

I'm still testing out the resource discovery, but I'm trying to make it so that you'll only reveal the resource a little before you need it. Not always so easy, but we'll see how it works.



Gotta go, will answer rest later.

Originally posted by Plutarck
I believe that's a dumb bug in the game, because Special Ops Team has the "all terrain as road" flag. I wasn't aware that it would mean "even railroad squares".

I suppose the Partisan, Scout, and Explorer are all the same way. Is that correct?

Hmm...definately annoying.

Noticed something else with special forces, their dropzone area is 0. Not good if your trying to get them to a specific area quickly if they can only drop in their own base. :) Simple mod you might want to put into .8. They need a high area of operation. It would be nice if they could drop anywhere on the globe that'd be sweet but since I think only ICBMs can do that...


Runestar

Someone mentioned beer as a discovery. Really cool idea!

2 new resources
Hops and Barley
(might have to trade for 1 or both)

discover beer, allows brewery. Only bulidable to cities with clean water access. (irrigation, lake, anything non ocean.)

Brewery makes 1 happy citizen in city, and reduce curruption by 1.

Hey just a thought! Your mod rocks. Keep it up. What do you think about this?

esnyper: I believe the Civ3CopyTool by Gramphos supports importing/exporting maps into a .bic file. So you'd just use LWC's .bic file, then Import the map.

That _should_ work, but I've never tried it. Another thing Firaxis should add support for ;)


homer: I have heard that problem, and it seems that it's just a crazy problem with the way the game distributes resources. As it's a bonus resource I can only control what terrain it appears on, but I have heard that is shows up in rediculously large amounts.

The only solution I know for now is to open the .bic with the editor, go to the Terrain tab, and unselect Cotton from the Plains tile. That would mean it wouldn't appear anywhere.

The other idea is to choose the Wet map option, which means there will be less Plains tiles and thus less Cotton.


I wonder, should Cotton appear on Grasslands? That would probably actually decrease the amount it shows up, but I'm not certain about that. Ah well, I might have to revise my use of it.


Note on Imperialism/Colonialism: Governments and "Government Wonders" (such as the ideas for Constitution, etc) will be addressed in a future patch. The current governments will probably nearly all be replaced, and special Small Wonders added like "Constitution" (which are expensive but buildable by any government, or at least that one will be).

It's not a small undertaking and I'll definately be posting about it before I make it into a release version. I'll be needing plenty of input and discussion on it as it will be a major change in an aspect I personally haven't spent alot of time considering, but it should be really excellant when it's put out.

Probably will be my next project, as soon as I can friggin' get everything with the installer and current game bugs worked out. It will also be post-patch, so we'll see what the patch does before I get started on it.


Resource Disappearance issue: I'm thinking of making Horses, Coal, and Oil a whole lot more likely to "move" around. Dunno about the other resources, but I think the strategic resources are just far too "static" as it is.

Things should be a lot more dynamic, especially since it's over the course of 6000 years of history.

I'd only like if Bonus Resources could be controlled more, but making them Strategic seems overkill.


Runestar: That was an "oopsy", as I added airdrop late and failed to realise I needed to give them a range of operation, hehe. It can only be a maximum of 8, however.


gorilladf: I didn't think of making a resource allow the production of a city improvement, but you're right. That is definately an idea!

Even if only Barley was used...but if used Barley and Hops you could make the brewery considerably more powerful.

But how about this idea:

If you have Barley and Hops you can build a Small Wonder, "Grand Brewery", which makes a few people happy and adds culture, but it also allows the creation of some kind of improvement which adds happyness that can be built in citys.

It represents the discovery of Beer, thus allowing all citys with access to Beer and Hops to build something like a Distillery/Brewery/whatever.

Another idea would be to do something like change Wine to the strategic resource of Grapes and allow the creation of the an improvement called something like "Vinyard", where the grapes are imported and used to plant grapes and produce wine, which adds happyness and culture.


Just an idea, but I think we can all agree that there is alot of things that can be done with the idea of Resources and that the current implementation has only scratched the surface of what is possible.

Yeah that would be cool! Is it harder to create a city improvment? You need the graphic for the cityview as well as regular menu graphic.

Hell you could make brewerys, bars, discos, mini malls, and maybe even an AA meeting place :)

I love how all the new units are coming. I just would like to see some cool new city improvements. I thought having to have 2 resources would make it more difficult. Your right, it should be worth a little more.

Does anyone know what the old mead was made from? Just hops?

Mead was made by fermenting honey or water. Ooh, that's a good idea for a resource. "Honey"

Hops is used for flavoring with a bitter taste (characteristic of beer) and for preventing bacterial action.

I believe in ancient egypt they brewed beer with just barley, having no access to hops. There was a thing a while back where they discovered a recipe for beer made in ancient egypt and actually produced some of it for modern consumption.

Now according to http://www.history-of-beer.com/html/story_of_beer.html, it wasn't until the monasteries in the middle ages that the monks (they were the scientists of the middle ages, really) boiled brewing down to an art and institutionalized Hops for use as a preservative and flavoring.

So perhaps the advance would go best around the time of Monotheism...but then again, isn't it kind of odd that Monasteries aren't represented in the game? Hmm...

Anyway, I'm not totaly sure, but I believe I could make Barley a luxury resource appearing in the begining, but Hops would be strategic and be revealed in the middle ages.

I've already added 3 city improvements into the game by just copying the current graphics available in the game, so adding more wouldn't be hard.


I think that resource-dependent buildings of all sorts are far too limited in their representation.


Note: I also think that Domestication, based on some other suggestions, should probably be better represented, perhaps best replacing The Wheel. The Chariot unit could be moved, and perhaps Horseback Riding be played around with.

It seems that the Warrior Code/Wheel/Horseback section of the ancient tech tree could use some kind of change, but I just don't know what.

WOW is all I can say about your Mod- what a Herculean effort! I'm speaking for many when I say, we're in your debt. Thank you, Sir!

A few odd thoughts about it all, as I've read through your readme.txt and changelog.txt.

1) Modern warships that would fit into the catagory of Nuclear Sub, AEGIS cruser (and even the Battleship) all can and ususally do carry cruse missles. These can even be nuclear armed, although I think I saw that you had the ICBM flag adjusted to Tactical Missle flag allowing them to be carried by ships capable of carrying tatical missles. OK good for Nuc Subs, does this mean by carry, they can lauch ICBM's now? And, last I looked, AEGIS cruser couldn't carry tactical missles so they cannot carry cruse missles? Ditto for battleships? BB, SSB/SSN and AEGIS can definitely fire cruise missles, as Iraq and Taliban have learned.

2) Airlift: you stated that Mech Inf.'s vehicles are more like SUV then tanks. Not so. APC's may not be as heavely armoured as tanks, but they are no SUV. A modern APC weighs more then the early tanks by a considerable margin. So Mech Inf. being airlifted is I think a stretch. This is an important one due to the MI being such an important unit. Radar Artillery would be about the same, they are BIG and Bulky. Not sure where it fell in on your mod, I havve'nt gotten to the modern era with it yet. Oh your right on about these type of units not being able to get into Jungles or Mts. , but I really think Mech Inf. should also be banned from that terrain. Of course they can move through on roads, which will usuallly be there, so I don't think the effect on game balance will be as bad as you thought. (Of course if someone pillaged the road ...)

Anyway, I really liked many, many of your changes. A few I think I might go into the editor and change (in some cases back), but all in all what you've done is GRRRREEEAT! Great job, and keep it up! Now, if I can just figure out how to use the CivCopyTool myself ... I'm no computer whiz and I'm a bit confused by this stuff about the VBruntimes ... downloaded those 4 disks Grampellon uploaded, but a little unsure how to make it all work- wish he'd do a tutorial like YOU sit up!

Thanks for the work on your great Mod! Outstanding!

Hehehehe I like the beer idea..

How about a new late modern major wonder. That being Ceasars Palace? It could add to tax money from the city and increase the happiness of the entire continent, along with add a bit of corruption to a city to balance it out.

As for other ideas I've been thinking of as I complete a domination game. Large transport planes, That can hold 5 (An Elite Army) and travel from airport to airport or to a dropzone? Maybe something along the lines of a C-5?

Pioneers that can cross shallow water?

Combat engineers. Workers that can fight, for mid period introduction. Being on a 5billion year old planet with lots of high mountains, getting a road across is important, and sending in just a worker, to be captured by an enemy.

I finally got it to work by re-installing, re-downloading and running from the remote site instead of saving to disk.
I'm not sure if any of it made the "one" difference, but IT WORKS!
I'm very happy with the mod. It was worht the wait.
Add another satisfyed customer to your invoice to firaxis :D

this is probably just wishful thinking, but does the lwc mod fix the air unit problems?

Ok, help out a computer-challenged civfanatic. When I download it, where do I put it? Do I just save it as a scenario, under the scenario folder?

Originally posted by Magellan
Ok, help out a computer-challenged civfanatic. When I download it, where do I put it? Do I just save it as a scenario, under the scenario folder?

Save it to a temporary directory, and then run it. You could save it to your desk top or even just let your operating system run it when it completes the download. It has a self installer.:D

Runestar

Runestar, I must say that I don't like your "Caesar Palace" idea. If we want a new modern wonder, let it be something like the genome project, not a lowly casino (come on, do you want to compare a casino with the pyramids? :eek: )

And I don't like the combat engineers idea as well. If you are worried about their safety, escort them :)

I'm saying this because I fear that LWC, as great a mod as it is, may get too cramped if we keep on adding and adding stuff. We need to detect what is necessary and what is superfluous. :D

i cant find a place on the editor that came with the game that allows me add new units or new techs or wonders? I can rename and change current ones but i cant add new ones in..I can add governments.... am i being dumb or is the editor crappy? BE SPECIFIC AND DETAILED PLZ!

Here is a strategy I came up with while reading your posts: You are at the age where most of the attack units are tanks and other mech things. You plant jungles (although I forget, can you plant jungles? maybe you should add it =]), then you could pillage all your jungle squares and they won't be able to get through because there are no roads! Of course, land units will still be able to get through... but you would cut off a main part of their army.

Plus, you need to change it so you can choose the directory you installed into... it is annoying if you installed to Civ 3 instead of Civilization III.

Yes please do make a zip version instead of a automatic executable...

Ever Since i installed LWC mod civ has been crashing after a short while of play. Since noone else has been complaining... i wasnt sure if it was the mod or not. Im going to reinstall civ 3, and then the mod again. But does anyone have any other potential solutions.

BUG: I automated a scout and whenever another units tries to kill it it wins without taking any damage, I'm suprised it isn't a leader yet rofl

how about dope as a resource.
it adds to commerce, corruption and happiness
and when its no longer present, it makes the citizens unhappy:):)

Enforcer

I agree that the casino shouldn't be a wonder, but maybe a city improvment.

Honey would be a cool luxury.

How about a medic unit! Would heal units in same tile quicker! That might be too powerful :)

Wouldn't the international space station be a new wonder?

I get the feeling that including medics as their own unit wouldn't be too realistic...
It's too fine grained; after all, each unit represents an entire platoon/squadron/army whatever of real life people, and they would have their own 'medics' internally to their unit (which I guess is why they can heal in the first place ;))

An alternative however could be a 'field hospital' tile improvement, which would allow units to be healed in enemy territory, a la MASH :) That could be quite cool.

N.

In the update log you asked about having Nuclear power stations needing water to work.

Yes, they do need it. Nuclera power stations need lots of water. If you ever visit one, there will be a massive lake near by

Originally posted by nedski

An alternative however could be a 'field hospital' tile improvement, which would allow units to be healed in enemy territory, a la MASH :) That could be quite cool.

N. [/B]

I agree kind of like the fortress, it would be really helpful. But maybe make it a little more general, like a "field base" or "base of operations" so you can repair machine units as well?

Originally posted by justicemongoose
this is probably just wishful thinking, but does the lwc mod fix the air unit problems?

I noticed no one answered this so Ill just tell you, the answer is no it wont. No one can fix that im afraid but Fraxis, and from what I am hearing all over that the update (official) is comming out this weekend, and I would imagine that the air unit problems would be fixed in this update. :) Hopefully along with alot of other bugs? :confused:

Hey I also was thinking, and how bout as a resource or more a luxury you add Cocoa beans? :goodjob: You know to make chocolate, I mean everyone likes that, especially women heh.
I dont know just a thought, I do also agree beer might be a good one to. :D

Actually nuclear power plants dont need a river. Its cheaper and more convenient if they use a river for cooling but cooling towers work just as well. Cooling towers use regular city water for cooling.

Version 0.8 is now available! Check the first post for details!


It does a whole bunch of stuff, as you can clearly see from the changelog.

Would love to play this mod... but no chance to download it... i get an error everytime...

One issue I would like to adress is military unit vs population. I feel that military units should cost population. Look at the Soviet Union, its losses in WWII greatly affected its population size and post war growth. I am going to expriment with this idea. It would limit the size of computer armies and make army size and empire size relative.

Originally posted by olebooya
One issue I would like to adress is military unit vs population. I feel that military units should cost population. Look at the Soviet Union, its losses in WWII greatly affected its population size and post war growth. I am going to expriment with this idea. It would limit the size of computer armies and make army size and empire size relative.

Theres one problem with that, and that is that Worker (1 unit)units and Settlers already cost citizens (2 units for settler)armies also cost money to support. Making all of this almost impossible to play, not to mention the fact it would make it slow to expand the empire your building. Not to mention making it even SLOWER to progress on the Tech tree:eek:, so all in all it was a good thought but prolly not to fun for everyone.

having problem with .8....did the upgrade from .7 rather than the full download.

Keep getting a program fault....anyone else having this problem

I like the idea of units co