For those who have stumbled into this thread, this is not actually a succession game. This is a "laboratory exercise" that grew out of Gengis Khan's "GK2 - The Training Day Experiment (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=81351). We decided to post this as a separate thread so that othes can participate directly. (Anyone is welcome to participate.)

At this writing, the GK2 team members (playing as Iroquois) are discussing various contingencies for dealing with Persia. The question was posed "What can the Mounted Warrior do that the Immortal cannot?"

Gengis Khan, Sir Bugsy, and I were discussing ways to teach this when Sir Bugsy asked grahamiam to cook up a little scenario... Here's a snippet of the opening:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/MW_v_Immortal_screenshot.jpg

Instructions to GK2 team members: Download > > The Save < < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/GKT-MW-IM-3.SAV) and play a few turns; then post your results. (This may be decided in less than ten turns....) If Niagra Falls gets sacked, you can stop playing at that point. If you sack the Persian capitol, please stop playing. (Edit: Note that Perseopolis is not the capitol of Persia in this game.)

@Grahamiam: Many thanks again for making this a playable "lab" instead of a discussion.

To anyone who wants to play, some parting advice. First from Sun Tzu:

"Therefore the clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him."

(In other words, fight on your own terms...)

"By holding out advantages to him, he can cause the enemy to approach of his own accord; or, by inflicting damage, he can make it impossible for the enemy to draw near. "

...and from "Murphy's Laws of Combat":

"When you're short of everything but enemy, you're in combat."

Don't forget, Murphy was an optimist. Good luck!

Edit:

Spoiler factor: If you plan to play it, don't read beyond this first post until after you've played 10 turns and posted your results.

(If you want to play it again after playing once and reading the thread, knock yourself out! )

Quick question guys... should we post a turn log here? Seems like it'd be a spoiler. Or should we just do a general overview of what happened?

Although the imortal is a better UU overall, used tactically right, the Mounted Warrior can be just as deadly.

Hmm, am I mistaken or is that too much mounted warriors to be a challenge? Don't want to post moves either as it would spoil things.

What version of CivIII is this? PTW, Vanilla?

Vanilla - but that is not 10 characters

What version of CivIII is this? PTW, Vanilla?

This is van Civ III 1.29 no mods.

Crossed with grs

(edit again: wow, this is harder than it looks!)

I'd like to do a write-up on what I discovered -- anyone with more experience, what should/shouldn't I post to make sure the exercise still has value for the actual team members?

--GJ
(lurker in GK2)

I hadn't really considered the spoiler factor when I started this thread... and we'd need another dozen posts to get a second page going.

@Gogf and grs, have you guys played this? I'd appreciate it if you could offer non-spoiler comments if you have.

To those who have played it, did you do well? Did anybody get hammered?

Do you guys think it would help the spoiler factor if we just posted unit kills/losses, until a second page starts in the thread?

I sacked Arbela in 3700 BC.

I'll post my notes as soon as they're requested/we're on a second page of the thread/whatever.

--GJ

I've taken the capitol, and can get a few cities signed for peace. I can take at least 2 of the 5 cities left within 2 turns, and that will bring me to turn 9. At that point I could get him down to a City-State I'd imagine. It was a good exercise, but a bit over powering with all the MW. Few keys that I picked up during my play. I have a detailed turn log up to the capitol being captured.

Edit: The year is 3700 BC.

Okay - so you sacked it on the 10th turn... how about dropping me a PM to tell me (generally) how you played it?

I hope we didn't make this too easy...

I hadn't really considered the spoiler factor when I started this thread... and we'd need another dozen posts to get a second page going.

@Gogf and grs, have you guys played this? I'd appreciate it if you could offer non-spoiler comments if you have.

To those who have played it, did you do well? Did anybody get hammered?

Do you guys think it would help the spoiler factor if we just posted unit kills/losses, until a second page starts in the thread?

Well, it's harder than it looks. I'm not done, but um... I can't really say much without posting a spoiler. You guys should bring more defensive units to the front once you declare war (I didn't just learn this, I always do it :p).

Well, it's harder than it looks. Well, good. I feel a little better now. :mischief:You guys should bring more defensive units to the front once you declare war (I didn't just learn this, I always do it :p).This was done by design. I don't know how closely you're following the TDG, but there is a specific tactic we're trying to teach here.... ;)

I think we will want everyone to post what they did. Things to consider in your write up:

What tactics were successful
What tactics were not
What tactics did the AI use that were effective (or not)

@ scout - if you post something in the opening post that a player shouldn't go any further until having played the scenario, and then have some spoiler criteria ala Ainwood's GotM spoilers, I think we'll be OK.

I am looking forward to reading the various experiences.

Finally, a hardy :thumbsup: to Grahamiam and scout for cooking this up. I applaud them for a very innovative concept.

Okay - per Bugsy's suggestion, the spoiler warning has been edited into the first post....

Sooo.... post away!! (and I know there are some turnlogs ready to be posted, because a couple of people have PM'd me with them... :D )

Screenshots too! They will help everyone learn.

...too bad this is Vanilla and not C3C... I love the little rockpiles all over the place in Conquests after something gets sacked.

A couple of people have PM'd me after sacking the Persian capitol in 3700. Has anybody beaten that mark yet? :devil2:

edit: LOL...just seen you made Arbela the capitol not Persepolis as usual - and I wondered for an hour what this is about :)

Seems I get "fastest conquest" in GK2.1 - Tactical Exercise 1 ;)

I sacked Persepolis in 4000BC only losing 2 units.

To post something useful: The Immortal is 4:2:1 while our Mounted Warriors are 3:1:2. That tells us 2 things:

a) we never want to be attacked by an immortal - even fortified behind a river we will stand only a slight chance
b) we are fast enough to accomplish a) - our 2 movement count as 6(!) on roads inside our territory so we can reach the capitol in the first turn and that is just what I did.

Post away it is :)
Apologies for the lack of a detailed turn log.
(EDIT: I made frequent saves at key points, let me know if you want screenshots.)

---

I started this game off by contacting the Persians and trading Ceremonial Burial and Map Making for Iron Working and Masonry. I did this figuring that if I was going to turn them into a third-rate power, there was no point in withholding technology. (I could have asked for it later, but this would decrease the value of a potential peace settlement - i.e. fewer cities for free later.)

Note that we have Writing - an embassy in Persia is in order. For about 60 gold I determined Arbela's location and the strength of its and Persepolis' garrison (3 spearmen apiece).

Now for some math. Pulling up the combat calculator, we determine that we'll win about 2/3 of the fights where we attack Immortals with our MWs, but we'll lose 97% of the time if they attack us on flat ground. This establishes a couple of conditions: first, we must stay on the offensive, and second, we will need about two MWs for every Immortal. We have this material superiority already in Niagara (20 MWs vs. eight visible Immortals).

A couple of plans spring to mind:

First, we can go for the straight-ahead charge into Persian territory and attempt to sack Persepolis on the first turn. Mathematically, this ought to work out pretty well, especially if we get good luck with the RNG. If it works, we will have cleared out 8 Persian units and one of their cities. But there are some problems: the defense in Niagara is very weak (one regular spearman, who will get KO'ed ~80% of the time versus a vet Immortal), so if we get swept aside in the initial attack, we will certainly lose the choke. Also, we are likely to strand some units in Persian territory after we take Persepolis. This is a particular danger because we don't know how many Immortals Persia may be stocking behind the fog of war. We only know they have eight visible.

Second, we can attack the nearer stack of Immortals and expect to take it down, then retreat into Niagara. The remaining Immortal stack will take two turns to attack: one to move into our territory and one to attack. (They don't get the movement bonus of roads in our land!) We can use this extra time to reinforce Niagara and heal up, attacking these Immortals before they can attack us. (A convenient Barracks in Niagara will help greatly with this plan.)

Before executing either plan, I did some overhead tasks - switching most production to MWs and pop-rushing a spear in Allegheny (the fastest way to get an extra defender in Niagara).

I decided to go with the second plan on my first attempt, but my RNG luck was so good that I changed my mind and plowed straight into Persepolis. After taking it, however, I realized that in addition to the two or three MWs we'd already lost, we were going to lose six more who were stranded near the site of Persepolis.

This led to the second part of the plan: retreat all of the MW's next to Niagara into Niagara and have the ones already there rest/fortify. Leave the remaining MW's as fodder for the Immortals; we might lose them, but this will buy time for us to heal back in Niagara. It still takes two turns for Immortals to attack Niagara, and on one of those they will be sitting ducks.

As expected, the MW's to the northeast were knocked out quickly; the question was now whether we would be able to heal and hold out in Niagara.

What happened next was a stroke of luck with the RNG. 9 full-strength MWs took down enough of a stack of 7 Immortals that there was no impending danger to the town. Once this stack was gone, the rest of the game was history; the remaining MW's healed up, an extra spearman was sent to Niagara, and the counter-counter attack was swift an severe. I sacked Arbela with a horde of MW's in 3700 BC.

---

Again, apologies for the general lack of detail :)

Summary of notes/lessons:
1. The barracks in Niagara was extremely helpful. Originally I was drafting contingency plans and diversionary tactics based on units there healing 1 HP per turn. With MW's healing entirely in the space of one turn, it was much easier to beat back the offensive.
2. Retreating is very useful; especially in the opening rounds (and when trying to save the troops near Persepolis), I was able to save a fair number of MW's, either because they attacked and weakened an Immortal but didn't kill him, or they were attacked and managed to run away.
3. I think that even if my luck had been worse, I would have been able to hold out on the position on the basis of the Barracks in Niagara. As long as Persia sent fewer Immortals than I had MWs, I was okay, because every turn a batch of MWs would be able to attack until they were at 1 HP, retreat, and be ready to go a couple of turns later. The good luck with the RNG helped a lot, but I think I would have survived anyway. (Note that I replayed the scenario with a different bent and this actually happened. I'll post those notes presently.)

In short - MWs have three natural advantages over Immortals. First, MWs will win the majority of the battles where they're the aggressor; second, their extra movement point allows them to move around Immortals, which gives them the chance to be the aggressor more often; and third (and most obvious), retreating can save the lives of a few extra MW.

As long as the mounted warriors stay aggressive they will have the advantage. They will not win defensive battles against the Persians, but they have the means to stay aggressive through most of the campaign.

I sacked Persepolis in 4000BC only losing 2 units.:eek: It seems you did something I didn't count on... :wow:

...but.... what happened to the MWs after you sacked the city?

Seems I get "fastest conquest" in GK2.1 - Tactical Exercise 1 ;)

I sacked Persepolis in 4000BC only losing 2 units.

To post something useful: The Immortal is 4:2:1 while our Mounted Warriors are 3:1:2. That tells us 2 things:

a) we never want to be attacked by an immortal - even fortified behind a river we will stand only a slight chance
b) we are fast enough to accomplish a) - our 2 movement count as 6(!) on roads inside our territory so we can reach the capitol in the first turn and that is just what I did.

I got Persepolis in 4000 BC too - but Arbela is the capital :)
Kinda confusing if you expect Persepolis to be the capital every time.

Yeah - I just played the game again as agressively as I could to see if I could duplicate the feat. I remembered that Perseopolis was not the capitol, but I did not remember the name of the city... but I wanted to see if it was possible to sack Arabela in 4000 B.C. It doesn't look possible... there are forested roads that make it a little hard for the Immortals to close with Arabela.

After completing the first attempt (described previously) I was instructed to try again but without leaving my territory for the first few turns.

It turns out that this works much better than the plan I went with the first time, mostly because you don't need help from the RNG to pull it off.

The short version: I did the same city management tricks and the tech trade both, although I didn't establish the embassy (so what? I knew what was there anyway). Once again I used my MW superiority to clear off the original group of Immortals - but this time I retreated back into Niagara whenever possible and left one Immortal in Persian territory.

Another group of 6-7 Immortals showed up on my doorstep on the next turn. But since I had not pressed my attack as before, I had plenty of MW's (had about 1.5:1 where fully-healed units were concerned) to dispatch them with...from there it was just a matter of weathering the storm for a turn or two, continuing to heal MW's and engaging the Persians only on offense and not on defense.

Attached is a screenshot from the end of the battle in 3750 BC. As soon as the extra spearman reaches Niagara for defense, I will storm the Persian lands, swinging through Persepolis on my way to Arbela.

Ok, ok...already corrected the above. I sacked Arbela (the real capital) in 3750BC. Tactic was nearly the same: attack all units in range and move all wounded horses back to Niagara Falls to heal. It has a barracks and so they can attack and draw back in round 1 - heal in round 2 - and are fast enogh to be back at the front in round 3.

Beside me failing the reading comprehension, I think it was the key to get Persepolis on the first turn, cause that made it possible to use the roads. After that I draw all units back for healing and did a "back and forth" after that. I used all nearby units - including the scout, workers and the settler as decoy and moved them into Persian territory to explore and to distract (notice the immortals standing quite stupid around near Arbela).

[dance] :band: [dance]

That sound you hear is me, dancing a little jig, because GJ clearly understands the answer to the question I originally asked in GK2:

Q: What can the Mounted Warrior do that the Immortal cannot?
A: Skirmish.

Skirmishing is classic cavalry stuff; hit-and-run, hit-and-run. It is a really effective way to "use offensive units defensively".

:hatsoff: to GJ (and to GRS for giving me a good scare and playing this nicely right off the bat).

@GJ, or anyone in GK2: Does that last sentence of the Sun Tzu quote make a little more sense now?

Summary
Traded for 2 techs & WM, found 1 city, captured 2 cities (one of which autorazed), sued for Peace and gained 2 more cities, Lost 8 MW and killed 25 PER units, produced 3 more MW units, produced a great Leader and I’m 4 turns away from learning Literature. I accomplished all of this by the end of 3750BC (Turn 5).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Details

Turn 1 – 4000BC

Contact Persia - Annoyed, 8 cities, 210gold, up IW & MAS, down CB, MM, HBR, also down Horses

Trade them my Wmap, CB, MM, worker & 29gold for IW, MAS & their Wmap

F3 guys says we are weak against them, no knowledge to be gained from Culture & Power graphs

Shield in NF being wasted so I mm to river grass (pick up commerce)

No option to ask them to remove forces so I declare War on them

Attack at City Gate
vMW vrs vIM..............................vMW dies redlines vIM
vMW vrs vIM..............................vMW retreats on -1hp damage to vIM
vMW vrs vIM..............................vMW wins down 3hp - enter GA
vMW vrs vIM..............................vMW wins down 3hp
vMW vrs vIM (3/4hp)...................vMW wins down 3hp
eMW vrs vIM (1hp)......................eMW wins no damage

Attack at their City Gate
vMW move SE attacks E vrs vIM........vMW wins down 1hp
vMW move SE attacks E vrs vIM........vMW dies doing no damage & vIM promos to Elite
vMW move SE attacks E vrs eIM........vMW redlines & retreats does 2hp damage to eIM
vMW move SE attacks E vrs rIM.........vMW dies doing -1hp damage & rIM promos to Vet now (3/4)
vMW move SE attacks E vrs eIM........vMW redlines & retreats does 2hp damage to eIM
vMW move SE attacks E vrs eIM (3/5) ...vMW wins down 1hp
vMW move SE attacks E vrs vIM...........vMW wins down 1hp - advances into PER territory

Attack for Persepolis
vMW SE E NE attacks rSpear...........vMW wins down 2 hp promos to Elite
vMW SE E NE attacks rSpear...........vMW wins down 0 hp
vMW SE E NE attacks rSpear...........vMW wins down 1hp
vMW SE E NE attacks rSpear...........vMW dies redlines rSpear
vMW SE E NE attacks Archer...........vMW wins down 2 hp
vMW SE E NE attacks rSpear (1/3)...vMW wins - Persepolis autorazes - get 14 gold, no workers

vMW SE E & forts
vMW SE E & forts
Spear SE E forts

Move the 3 MW in other towns to NF will take 2 turns to arrive

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/DJM_GK21_01.jpg

IBT
3 IM attack – they kill 2 MW while losing 2 IM, one of my MW promos to Elite

Turn 2 - 3950
eMW attacks NE vrs eIM.......eMW wins no damage - returns SW W & forts
vMW (4/4) moves W forts
eMW (3/5) moves W NW to NF
eMW (2/5) moves W NW to NF
vMW (3/4) moves W NW to NF
rSpear (1/3) moves W NW to NF
vMW (2/4) pillages moves W
vMW (3/4) moves NW to NF
------------------------------------------------------------------------

IBT
10 rIM :eek: advance to unroaded plain

Turn 3 - 3900
F3 says we are now Average w/ PER

vMW (2/4) NW to NF

Battle at Immortal Graveyard
eMW attacks E vrs rIM.....eMW wins no damage
vMW attacks E vrs rIM.....vMW wins -1hp promos to elite – returns NW to NF
vMW attacks E vrs rIM.....vMW wins -2hp - returns NW to NF
vMW attacks E vrs rIM.....vMW wins -1hp - returns NW to NF
vMW attacks E vrs rIM.....vMW wins -2hp - returns NW to NF
vMW from NF moves SE attacks E vrs rIM....vMW dies redlines rIM
vMW from NF moves SE attacks E vrs rIM....vMW retreats inflicting no damage on rIM - returns NW to NF
vMW from NF moves SE attacks E vrs rIM....vMW wins -1hp - returns NW to NF
vMW from NF moves SE attacks E vrs rIM....vMW wins no damage
vMW from NF moves SE attacks E vrs rIM....vMW wins no damage
vMW from NF moves SE attacks E vrs rIM....vMW wins -2hp - returns NW to NF
vMW from NF moves SE attacks E vrs rIM....vMW wins no damage advances E –returns W

F3 guys says we are now STORNG

Move our Scout to tile SE SE of NF as bait - no IM insight but want to attract more if they are near

Settler in NF waits / 2 vMW (4/4) SE with other healthy MWs
------------------------------------------------------------------------

IBT - only 2 rIM advance to unroaded plain

Turn 3 - 3850
eMW attacks E vrs rIM.....eMW wins -2hp - returns NW to NF
eMW from NF moves SE attacks E vrs rIM.....eMW wins -1hp advances E & forts

settler SE E NE to plain / 5 vMW move E to plain / Scout NE to plain also

From NF send rSpear, 2 vMW & 1 eMW to plain tile
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

IBT - no advance from PER

Turn 4 - 3800BC
Allegheny MW => MW
Oil Springs MW => MW
both new MW move to hill W of NF
settler founds Immortal Graveyard (on sacred battle site - is also a nice canal city)

Military Advances
All healed units from NF move to Forest tile NW NW of ARBELA – (1 spear, 6 vMW, 3 eMW)
All healed units from Immortal Graveyard move to hill W of ARBELA - 7 vMW
Peace talks PER offers peace

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/DJM_GK21_02.jpg

------------------------------------------------------------------------

IBT - PER moves some workers

Turn 5 - 3750BC
Tonawanda MW =>MW / start new MW towards NF

Battle for ARBELA
vMW attacks E vrs vSpear.....vMW dies but redlines vSpear
vMW attacks E vrs rSpear.....vMW retreats inflicting no damage (luckily no promo for rSpear)
vMW attacks E vrs rSpear.....vMW retreats inflicting no damage (luckily no promo for rSpear)
vMW attacks E vrs rSpear.....vMW retreats inflicting no damage (luckily no promo for rSpear)
vMW attacks E vrs rSpear.....vMW dies -1hp to rSpear who promos to Vet
vMW attacks E vrs rSpear.....vMW dies -1hp to rSpear
vMW attacks E vrs rSpear.....vMW retreats -1damage to rSpear
eMW moves SE attacks SE vrs rSpear....eMW wins no damage
eMW moves SE attacks SE vrs vSpear (3/4)....eMW retreats inflicting no damage
vMW moves SE attacks SE vrs vSpear (3/4)....vMW wins -1hp
vMW moves SE attacks SE vrs rSpear (2/3).....vMW wins -1hp
eMW (4/5) moves SE attacks SE vrs vSpear (1/4)....eMW wins no damage -captures ARBELA with 2 workers and.....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/DJM_GK21_03.jpg

I sue for Peace I get Susa, Pasargadae, 257gold & Tmap
PER is left with 4 cities, 1 at Size 2 the other 3 are Size 1

Final Map
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/DJM_GK21_04.jpg

well, everyone seemed to slice thru this very nicely :goodjob: see scout, we should have kept the number of MW's @ 12 ;)

... or maybe tripled the number of immortals...

Yeah - I just played the game again as agressively as I could to see if I could duplicate the feat. I remembered that Perseopolis was not the capitol, but I did not remember the name of the city... but I wanted to see if it was possible to sack Arabela in 4000 B.C. It doesn't look possible... there are forested roads that make it a little hard for the Immortals to close with Arabela.

It starts on 4000BC, and you just can't move that quickly, because there are three enemy tiles at one point.

Anyway, this is a pseudo spoiler, but a godd strategy is to not declare war immediately. Have them leave your territory, and then hit them when they aren't set up to be ready! Sorry if this isn't allowed, but it's how I would play in the normal game.

I am currently playing the normal version though...

Here's my little spin on the game.

Hummmm... only 10 turns... not much time to build anything really.
Change Salamance from warrior to wealth. 10 turns is the best that I can get out of this city.
Grand River MM to have slow growth but warrior due in 5 instead of 10.
MM Cattaraugus to work forest intstead of wheat. Won't grow quicker then 10, and this pulls an extra gpt
Move workers to make a road just south of Grand River. Will give us more movement.
Send all MW units I find to Niagra.
Turn Luxury up so all citizens are happy and this allows me to shave a turn off the warrior build in Oil Springs.
Set research to lit a 0%.:p
MM Allegheny for slow growth, but pulling a MW in 3.
Keep Tonawanda as warrior build but MM to get warrior in 2 not 3.
Send all warriors to the front. I'm only worried about Niagara and Allegheny.

So I'm at 70% luxury, lossing 13gpt. still have 210, so I'll be fine for 10 turns.

Call Up Persia...
hummm... so many trade options to go with! Let's see... I want their world map, but don't see it as crucial.
I don't want to give them MM but that will give me all their techs if I throw in a little gold. I really want a wall in Niagara, but it may take to long to build so Masonry is probably not worth it.

Turn luxury down to 40%... not everyone is happy, but I doubt anyone will riot anytime soon. Lossing 3 gpt this way. This give me more trading options. I have 180 gold to play with now.

hummm... the best deal I found was Masonary Iron Working and his WM for our Ceremonial Burial Horseback Riding, our WM and... 180 gold?!? Was this done this way on purpose?:p

After I make the trades, MM some more so I finally pull -1gpt, so I still have another 20 gold to play with... consider it a buffer for unit cost.

I know I'm going to get crap for this, but it's not an SG so I'm going to be evil.;) Who cares about rep in only 10 turns? Trade our Furs and Incense for 147 gold.:)

Declare war.

MW kills Imm but is redlined. We enter our Golden Age! Time to MM again. +3 gold?! That's it?!

Change Oil Springs from warrior to MW in 3.

MW vs Immortal - Win no damage
MW vs Immortal - loss redlined Imm
MW vs Immortal - loss redlined Imm. Imm promotes
MW vs Immortal - loss redlined elite imm.
MW vs Immortal - win no damage
MW vs Immortal - win no damage

That was last one outside of Niagara. I skip the injured MW and send all healthy ones to take out imms near Persepolis.

Feel stupid... noticed I have an elite unit... should have used him to attack units within our borders, but oh well.
MW vs Immortal - loss but redlined unit. Why won't my MW retreat?!
MW vs Immortal - win no damage!
MW vs Immortal - win but redlined. Sent back into Niagara to heal.
MW vs Immortal - win losses 1hp. Sent back to Niagara to heal.
MW vs 1hp Immortal - Ouch! Damn bastard won and promoted to elite with 2hps.
MW vs Immortal - loss but redlines unit
MW vs Immortal - win and enter persian lands. No loss of HPs.
MW vs Spear - loss, redlines spear but he promotes.:|
MW vs Spear - wins lossing 2hps.
MW vs Spear - wins no loss
MW vs Spear - wins lossing 1hp
MW vs Spear - Wins and promotes!
MW vs Archer - How many units you pound in their cities?!
Persepolis is razed to the ground!

Taking scouts advice to heart, I send all my units back to Niagara falls to heal... hopefully the Immortals will come out into the open where I can attack them. They don't have any units that will reach Niagara, or even go past the bonus BG 2 se of Niagara.
4 units are left out in the open. I'm afraid I'm going to loose them... that or move the spearman out of Niagara... I don't want to do that and loose Niagara completely, so I take a gamble and hope that the river will only allow 5 units to attack me and leave them be. Pray for them folks.:p

Nothing more to do. Hit enter.
IBT
Loose 3 MWs, including the elite. 2 retreats and one actually survives!
Forgot to set resarch. Whatever ya want. Doesn't matter.
Can build the FP. OK

Turn 2
MW vs 2hp Imm - Wins lossing 1hp.
Should note... I make sure to use a 2 movement unit so I can move back into Niagara without being left out.
MW vs 2hp Imm - win, 1 damage. He won't make it back to Niagara.
MW vs Imm - redlined but win
MW vs Imm - win 2 damage
MW vs Imm - win no dam
MW vs Imm - win no dam
MW vs Imm - win 2 dam
3hp MW vs 2hp Imm - win but redlined.

Send my units back to Niagara... or try.. they only make it 1 tile out.
1 MW left out in the open alone.:(
All my units I autosend to Niagara arrive... or most of them.
Send a MW out to take on 1 hp Imm, then think better of it and decide to save him for the next round.
Send out scout to pillage a road I won't use, but Persia might, and to be fodder for a unit.
Send out a warriof from Niagara to cover up my MW. Would rather loose him and the scout to the 2 Immortals I see.

IBT
warrior falls
Imm ignores scout 1 round. he takes on MW and our MW retreats.
Another imm takes the scout the next turn. But we pillaged a road so that will slow them down.
Imm takes on our MW and we win and promote to elite!

Turn 3
MW vs Imm - We win.
Rest of the units are injured, so wait on them unless I need them.
I take all the MW from Niagara out and attack the small stack of Imm
MW vs Imm - we win 1 dam
MW vs Imm - we lose, but they're redlined.
MW vs Imm - we win 1 dam
Send out Settler to the other choke point that Pers was on. Found Mauch Chunk.
This allows the forest where the immortal seem to gather to fall into our borders.
Transfer all but 1 warrior from Niagara to Mauch Chunk. Didn't think of this before but now I have to rush the barracks somehow, or else go back to Niagara to heal... well, at least it's quicker this way.
So now I transfer all INJURED units back to Niagara.

MW vs Imm - We win 2 dam. Won't make it back to Niagara so will take 2 turns to heal.

IBT
Our spear just barely survives an onslaught. Will send him to Niagara for a round.:(
Not going to report city builds and stuff. Sorry.:)
They do build up my palace.:)

Turn 4
Only units I have around are injured. Everyone is injured... but alive.;)
3hp MW vs Imm - We loose, imm promotes.
3hp MW vs Imm - same damn thing!
3hp MW vs 2hp Imm - we win, no dam. Send back to Niagra
3hp elite MW vs 2hp Imm - we win, redlined, and send back to Mauch Chunk. No leader.
I fort all the MWs around so they can heal at least 1 turn.
I have 5 regular warriors to defend Mauch Chunk. No Imms around. Most of my MW are in Niagara healing.
Wake warrior in Allegheny and send him up north. Haven't seen a galley anywhere.

IBT
Culture grows, no attacks. We're in complete control.

Turn 5
Move about a dozen healed MW out of Niagara.
Send a warrior from Mauch Chunk out as a scout. No Imms anywhere. send him into Persian lands.
I move my stack of MW into Persian Lands, heading for a hill outside of Arbela.

IBT
Culture in Salamanca, no attacks from Persia.

Turn 6 - I think
We take control of the hill outside of Persia, lossing all movement. I do this to prove a point actually. We loose alot of movement by moving on to a hill...
Move a MW from Niagara into the spot 1se of our Mauch Chunk forrest. His last movement is spent there.
Can talk to Persia. We tell him everything he has for peace. he can keep Arbela. he doesn't like? Okay.

IBT
Finally see a bit of movement... they send a warrior against me, but he doesn't attack.

Turn 7
Reg warrior vs reg warrior - We win, lossing 1hp.
MW from spot mentionted above VS Spear in Arbela - Wins and Promotes!
MW vs Spear - We loose.
MW vs Spear - We win, but are redlined.
MW vs Spear - retreat. Sent home.
(If you notice these guys attacked the same turn as the one from Niagara who was a turn behind... because I sacrificed their movement to be on the hill.
MW vs Spear - win but redlines. Sent home.
MW vs Spear - We Win. Arbela is ours. I take the city.

I think I had heavier casulaties then most because my first 2 or 3 turns I'd send a MW out to finish off an immortal, and he'd be left in the open... I stopped doing that by turn 4, and had an overall strategy build up by that point of hit and run to Niagara if badly injured, or Mauch Chunk if not injured.

Since I assumed this exercise was meant to illustrate the effectiveness of MWs against immortals, that's all I did.

I started off killing all the Immortals in the adjacent tile- the last MW to attack pulled back into Niagra. Then I just let the Immortals pour in until I was reasonably sure the initial wave had passed. Then I took Persepolis, Pasagardae and Arbela. I took Arbela on turn 10.

I killed 32 enemy units, lost 9 Mounted Warriors. 2 losses came from bone-head decisions to leave a MW in the open next to a stack of Immortals.

Skirmishing. That's the word I was looking for. Attack a group of units, then pull back into safety. Or, stay out of the way until an enemy unit is within 2 tiles and attack.

Something to keep in mind: becareful that your unit doesn't defeat the last (or only) unit and end up next to another enemy unless the payoff is large enough.

Skirmishing. That's the word I was looking for. Attack a group of units, then pull back into safety. Or, stay out of the way until an enemy unit is within 2 tiles and attack.

Something to keep in mind: becareful that your unit doesn't defeat the last (or only) unit and end up next to another enemy unless the payoff is large enough.

That is a really nice summary of "skirmishing", which is what this exercise was intented to teach. Believe it or not, you can pull these tactics off against Immortals using horsemen, you just can't get quite as agressive with plain ol' horsemen.

I hope you guys that are playing this are having some fun and refining some tactical ideas...

Note on the Following: I figured this was an exercise of fighting so I didn’t spend a whole lot of time on thinking about building and resettling razed cities. Much more time would have to be spent on thinking about that if this were in real game play. I was getting real tired by the end of playing this last night(I started to play after the Pistons Swooped up on the Lakers) Also This was a whole lot of Fun
Ok...
7 Warriors
1 Spearman
25 Mounted Warriors
4 Workers
1 Scout
1 Settler
This seems like a better start than I normally have at 4000BC but who am I to complain

PreTurn
Trades with X-man:
We want Iron Working / We offer Horseback Riding - Ceremonial Burial and 15 gold - ok
We want Masonry - World Map - 24 gold / We offer Masonry - ok
Dang we only have one Iron and the Persians will be Wiped off the earth before I can hook it for Swordsmen(unless...)
Science:
Choose Math turn down slider to 20% due in 36

MM'ing
Cattaraugus:
Worker off irrigated plain to fish (to make room for Oil Springs) Growth in 10 Warrior in 10
Oil Springs :
Fire Clown send to irrigated plain now growth in 10 warrior in 3
Switch from warrior in 3 to galley in 8
Allegheny:
Worker off BG move to irrigated plain no change in growth or production
Switch from Warrior in 2 to Archer in 3 - for the free shot
Tonawanda:
Worker off unimproved grass to BG quickens warrior to 2 turns growth still in 20
Switch from Warrior in 2 to galley in 6
Niagara:
Switch from Warrior to Spear

Turn 1 (4000BC):
Move Salamanca Warrior to Niagara there in 3
Fortify the other
Grand River Warrior - Fortify
Cattaraugus MW to Niagara there in 2
Fortify the Warrior
Worker SE of Catt SE-W to road
Oil Springs MW to Niagara there in 2
Fortify the Warrior
Worker inbetween Oil Springs and Allegheny to go help roading to the Iron there in 2
Allegheny Settler to Tonawanda hehehe...
Allegheny worker NW-NW to mine
Allegheny Scout to Oil Springs
Allegheny Warrior fortify
Allegheny MW to Niagara there in 2
Tonawanda Warrior fortify
Tonawanda MW to Niagara there in 2
Tonawanda worker to grass for mining

Time for War
Declare war!!!
Attacking From Niagara to stack of 4 Imm 1 tile SE
Vet MW dies to Vet Imm -1 hp
Vet MW -3 hp ret. to Vet Imm -1hp
Vet MW -3 hp ret. to Vet Imm -1hp
Vet MW -3 hp Kills Vet Imm
Golden Age Starts
Vet MW -3 hp Kills 3 hp Vet Imm
Vet MW Flawless Kills 3hp Vet Imm
Vet MW -2hp Kills 3 hp vet Imm
Note: All Damaged MW's got fortified in Niagara for healing

Attacking from Niagara to stack of 2 vet 1 reg Imm (I think) SE - E

Vet MW -1hp Kills Vet Imm
Vet MW -3 hp Ret. Vet Imm no Damage
Vet MW -3 hp Ret. Vet Imm -1 hp
Vet MW -3hp Kills -1hp Vet Imm
Vet MW -3hp Ret. no damage to Reg Imm
Elite MW -1hp Kills Reg Imm Moves back to 1 tile SE of Niagara

Move 8 MW 1 Spear to SE of Niagara for Attack next round

Hit Enter

IBT
Vet Persian Bowman impales himself on my spear No DMG to spear
Elite Imm comesout of the fog to kill my Spear only takes -1hp
Vet Imm Kills Vet MW -1hp
Reg Imm retreats a Vet MW to Niagara only one hp lost

Our people want a F.P. well there going to have to wait. Can't they see I'm kinda busy swatting Imm's?

Tonawanda Expands

Turn 2 (3950 BC)
Join settler to Tonawanda up size to six then pop rush the Galley - it will be done next turn :lol:

Worker NW - NW of Allegheny mines Grass
Fort Scout in Oil Springs Really can't see a use for him right now
Start roading to the Iron NW - W of Oil Springs

Why didn't my MW's heal in Niagara(I thought that with a rax in the town the auto healed IBT)

Attack 2nd round:
Vet MW kills flawlessly a 4 hp Elite Imm
Vet MW looses 1hp bet kills Reg Imm
Vet MW -3hp Ret. to 3 hp Elite Imm he looses 1 more hp
Elite MW kills flawlessly the last Elite 2 hp Imm. moves forward and sees 5 more Reg Imm's so he moves back to the stack.

3 more MW's arrive at Niagara so I move them to the stack

Hit enter

IBT

Bad RNG here

Reg Imm takes 3 hp from my reg MW he ret. no dmg to Imm
Reg Imm kills flawless reg MW
Reg Imm takes 3 hp from my reg MW he ret. no dmg to Imm
Reg Imm kills flawless reg MW
Reg Imm takes 3 hp from my reg MW he ret. no dmg to Imm

Turn 3 (3900BC)
Tonawanda finishes the Galley starts on Spear due in 4
Worker NW - NW of Tonawanda mines grass
Tonawanda Galley moves to the choke be there in 3
2nd worker shows up at NW - W of Oil Springs to help road

Elite MW SE of niagara(the only one left in my mighty stack) waits for a better leader oppurtunity.

There are now 9 Imms stacked SW of Persepolis

Attack 3rd round:

Vet MW -1 hp kills Reg Imm
Vet MW -3hp kills Reg Imm and promotes
Vet MW dies to reg Imm who promotes with -1 hp
Vet kills flawlessly Reg Imm
Vet MW -1 hp kills Reg Imm
Vet MW -1 hp kills Reg Imm
Vet MW dies to Reg Imm takes 2 hp from him but he gets one back as he promotes
Vet MW -1 hp kills Reg Imm
Vet MW -2 hp kills 3hp Vet Imm
Vet MW -1 hp kills 2hp Reg Imm
4 hp Elite Kills 2 HP vet flawlessly

Move all healthy MW out of Niagara(they must need 1 full turn to heal) onto the stack with my Elite MW and Move all injured MW's back into Niagara

Hit Enter
Reg Imm kills Vet MW but only has one HP left(Come on baby...Daddy needs a new leader)
Another one moves up but can't attack
Allegheny Archer to Spear due in 3

Turn 4(3850 BC)
Allegheny archer goes to Niagara there in 2
2 workers NW -W of Oil Springs 1 Irrigates the other moves onto Iron
Move my wounded Elite MW back to Niagara for healing

Attack #4
Vet MW -2 hp kills reg imm and promotes moved to Niagara
Move Elite MW from Niagara to attack 1 hp Imm kills him flawless but no leader
Move Elite and 8 Vet MW's to 1 tile SE of Persopolis to get forest bonus for defense

Hit Enter

IBT
No Counter Attack (hmmm....nice!)
Catt - Warrior to worker due in 4

Turn 5 (3800 BC)
Warrior heads to Niagara there in 3
Worker dies making an Iron Colony
Upgrade 5 warriors to sword for 200 gold

Move 6 vet 1 elite MW's out of Niaraga SE - E

Battle of Persepolis:
Vet MW -1 hp kills Reg Spear Moves to forest tile SE of Perse
Vet MW -3 hp ret only taking 1 hp from Reg Spear
Elite MW -1 hp kills 2 hp Reg Spear
Persepolis is destroyed 16 gold is ours

4 MW's get moves to hill W of Arabela
4 get moves to plain SW of Pasargadae
Archer moves to the front

Hit enter

IBT
Persian workers scurry to hide in their little holes they call cities
Grand river Warrior to spear
Allegheny Spear to Spear
Oil Springs Galley to Galley
Galley to Explore
Warrior to Niagara due in 2
Archer goes into Galley SE - S of niagara
4 hp MW goes in too
1 hp vet MW back to niagara for healing
2 Elite MW's head for hill SE of Susa be there in 3
Galley moves SE

Battle of Pasargadae:
Vet MW dies flawlessly to reg spear
Vet MW -1hp kills reg spear moves W into woods
Elite flawlessly kills reg spear and Destroys Pasargadae then moves NE to woods we gain 17 gold
2 slaves move back towards Niagara
Last MW in stack moves towards Tarsus and runs into Spear. Spear -2 hp MW dead

Battle of Arbela
Vet MW -3 hp ret to Vet spear - 1 hp MW holds
Vet MW -1 hp kills reg spear
Vet MW -1 hp kills Reg spear and Promotes
Vet MW dies to 3 hp vet spear but redlines
Move MW headed to Antioch in for the kill. He does so flawlessly
Arabela is ours - install governor - take 19 gold - 3 resisters
Start on Settler take one non-resisting worker into a clown to starve city. Persian worker gets forted.

Allegheny Spear heads towards Arabella for MP will be there in 4

Hit enter

IBT

Sneaky Imm pulls out of Antioch moves around to kill my undefended 1 hp MW.

Reg Persian warrior comes from the north to kill 3 hp MW in the woods he looses 1 hp

Tonawanda Spear to Spear

Turn 6 (3700BC)
Elite MW takes out 2 hp warrior
We move around and kill the sneaky Imm I lose 1 MW doing it though
2 more turns this one is mine

Hit enter

IBT
Allegheny Spear to Spear

Turn 7 (3650 BC)

Battle of Antioch
Vet MW flawlessly kills reg spear the city is destroyed we gain 21 gold

Battle of Susa
Vet MW dies flawlessly to reg spear
Vet MW flawlessly kills reg spear - Susa is destroyed we get 24 gold and

Battle of Tarsus
Vet MW on Mtn dies to reg spear -2 hp
Vet MW on Mtn kills vet spear 1 2 hp
Take 4 hp MW out of Arabela to kill redlined spear Tarsus is ours gain 28 gold and install governor - no resistance start temple

Dang can win in 2 (I didn't notice Bactra burried in the Jungle) It will take me 2 to get there

Hit enter

IBT

Turn 8 (3600 BC)

Battle of Gordium

It takes the brave death of 2 MW's but Gordium is destroyed we gain 35 gold

Only Bactrum left

Lots of troop movement

Hit enter

Ibt

Stuff

Turn 9 (3500 BC)
Battle of Bacteria

Elite MW wipes the floor with the last Persian Spear Bactra is destoryed we liberate 106 gold.

Oh hell Persia has another city? To bad I will rape him for peace he will never bother the good Indian people again.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/persia_defeted.jpg
This is all the Persians have left after 9 turns...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Persian_cap.jpg

You guys are learning some good stuff.

Alerum saw the disadvantages of a despotism GA. What was that worth to us, 4gpt? Kicking butt! He also saw what happens when you leave a unit in the open. One of the things I have learned, is that you want to be able to pull your units back to safety, especially against an opponent like the Immortal.

Alerum also used the hill, although he also learned that the hill wasn't necessary with two movement units.

Mist had his units that were exposed, get torn up in between turns.

Gator did very well.

So I would like to hear what everyone learned? Wanna try it again? If you do play again, see if you can minimize your losses and max out your victories. As a general you don't want to sacrifice your people needlessly.

So I would like to hear what everyone learned? Wanna try it again? If you do play again, see if you can minimize your losses and max out your victories. As a general you don't want to sacrifice your people needlessly.For those who want to give it a second shot, the advice I gave GJ in a PM was to try keeping all of your Mounted Warriors inside your borders for 2-3 turns, even if it means not attacking the last Immortal in the second stack. This aspect of "skirmishing" works wonders for force preservation, which in turn is really helpful if you are outnumbered (or unsure of the enemy's strength).

I'd be interested to hear feedback from second-time players who try it this way....

I could prolly minimize my losses at the expense of speed. It might be fun to try. The other trick is to not attack the last guy in the stack if it means that by moving forward will keep you from retreating back to the stack or city. I didn't think that atacking from a size 1 city made a difference to defense though unless it uas founded on a hill.

Mist - experiment with it. This is an exercise for you to improve your tactics. Try some different ways of playing it. If something works make note of it. If something doesn't, note that too. Try out all your theories, then share your findings with us. Replay it as many times as you'd like. Don't worry about MMing your cities and getting the best peace deal. This is strictly for you to develop sound tactics.

@ Bugsey - If I have time after SGOTM2 and the Pistons I will definitely do this

@GJ - what paint program are you using? Those are some great screen caps!

Another advantage of the skirmish tactic was the promotions and GLeader hunting ability.

I may try it again although I don't think the 5 turns can be improved much (4 at best), but I want to try and take it a little slower and try to minimize troop losses. However in an epic game I would be thrilled with a 3:1 kill ratio.

Was I the only one who pillaged the plain tile? I did this to trap the immortals there, which was still 2 turns from my city. Roaded tiles in unclaimed territory still convey the mp advantage. So by pillaging the spot I forced the Immortals to stop. If the battle against the 10 immortals had gone badly I could have retreated and with a full turn of rest been back at full strength in the 2 turns of their advance.

I would like to see these exercises continue as we progress through the game. I may even have to learn how to edit and create my own little scenerios. Or probably just pm Scout or Bugs with an idea and let them work it out :lol:

@GJ - what paint program are you using? Those are some great screen caps!

Why thank you :D

I edited that screenshot in Corel Photo-Paint 8, which is more or less equivalent to Photoshop (except that it was more affordable at the time). Everything in there was done with just its text and line tools.

The font for the "SKIRMISH?" is a handwritten font - I believe it's called "Another" - available from http://www.dafont.com/en/ . Everything else is standard-issue Arial.

When empire management loses its luster, it's always fun to paint pictures. :cool:

I could prolly minimize my losses at the expense of speed. People who actually do this type of stuff for a living would call this an example of "force preservation", which is a useful concept when it comes to warfighting. The concept of force preservation is a close cousin to economy of force, which involves using no more than you have to to take an objective...

Force Preservation: Using skirmishing tactics to hit-and-run with MWs versus Immortals, but retreating to the barracks to live to fight another day...

Economy of Force: Using no more MWs than needed to deal with the threat; hitting all but the last immortal, so that no immortal can threaten Niagra Falls...

Hopefully we'll find an excuse for some early industrial era slugging in GK2... so that we can use the concept of "force preservation" with "combined arms" to show you guys some additional power of fast units... :mischief:

Why thank you :D

I edited that screenshot in Corel Photo-Paint 8, which is more or less equivalent to Photoshop (except that it was more affordable at the time). Everything in there was done with just its text and line tools.

The font for the "SKIRMISH?" is a handwritten font - I believe it's called "Another" - available from http://www.dafont.com/en/ . Everything else is standard-issue Arial.

When empire management loses its luster, it's always fun to paint pictures. :cool:

All I could find about "another" was "Another Typewriter." As you can tell, I liked the font too ;).

EDIT: Found it! Go here (http://www.dafont.com/en/theme.php?cat=603), and scroll down until you see it.

Hope it is ok for outsiders to but in.

I believe it may be possible to take Arbela one turn earlier, but if you tried that, you might discover your forces melting away under heavy losses.

4000BC Kill off the exposed Imms, leaving the one lonely one outside borders.

3950BC Kill off the ones that appeared, once again leaving one lonely one, also heal the wounded MWs. Get astonished as a radar tower appears outside Arbela.

3900 Kill all Imms, raze city, plant a city of my own. Manage to grab a leader due to diligent use of elites, and plant leader and most of the remaining MWs in the forest outside ARbela

3850, Since capturing Arbela quickly is the deal, I strike across the river, and hit siome bad luck when the army croaks. I do not lose any more MWs though, and Arbela falls.

Had it been a regular game, I might not have struck across the river, and I

Get astonished as a radar tower appears outside Arbela. You're kidding about that part, right?

When you open something from vanilla in PTW or C3C, you can build outposts, radar towers, and airfields from the begining, because no tech is specified in the Civ3 editor.

Okay, I finally decided to actually play it through. Okay, so I was beaten by one turn... I could have been more agressive, but I never got an army, and had 18 MWs left at the end (never built one). I'll bet I have more left than Grim, and if I don't, it's because of the army he had :p.

I shall delurk and relate my three experiences with this exercise. First, I purposely fortified all of my mounted warriors in Niagra Falls. The immortals took some losses (many from injured immortals attacking), but not surprisingly, Persia took the city without too much trouble. Then I chose the option I consider best. I waited a few turns and attacked the immortals directly outside my city and sent my mounted warrior back to Niagra. Then I sent a ton of MWs to Persepolis and sacked it. Then I sent a bunch of MWs to Arbela. I sent them across the river before attacking to eliminate the spearmen's river bonus (they are tough enough already ;) ). I was victorious without too many losses and it didn't take very long. Ironically, this was the only playthrough where my people didn't offer to expand my palace. The third time, I decided to do a bunch of stupid things. I sent my MWs to attack as much as possible and sacked Persepolis on the first turn. Then the immortals killed many in the counterattack. Then I sent units peacemeal to the hill outside Arbela and attacked across the river. The attacks were not very successful. I finally decided to finish them off and used more intelligent tactics to take Arbela. Perhaps the contrasts between the successful and failed playings could show you that what everyone else has already said is true. So, attack immortals and don't leave units undefended in open ground.

So, attack immortals and don't leave units undefended in open ground.Welcome Tim! :thumbsup: I'm glad you had some fun playing with this. You have learned the way to beat the dreaded immortal - don't let them close with you. Hit them, and retreat... to paraphrase Sun Tzu: Inflict damage.. so that they may not draw near...

I know that wasn't your first post, but if somebody hasn't said it to you already, welcome to CFC!

Oops, I cheated. I played in Conquest.

I will have to replay in Vanilla. I will have to see what happens.

I thank the sponsors for building the challenge. It was great fun to play.

Bug ole :goodjob: to Scout and Graham on the timing of this excercise. I don't know if you've started to play GOTM32 but these same "tactics" (not "strategies") will come in very handy with the Aztec's. Because their UU (the Jaguar Warrior) has 2 movement points like the Mounted Warrior but has a weaker attack. This makes it even more important for "skirmishing" and "force preservation".

Have the "teachers" played through this? I'd be interested in seeing how Bugs, scout, and GK would play differently and where they play the same. Also was this excercise ment to just take Arabela or to wipe the Persians off the planet. Because I tried the latter.

I gave this a shot last night, but I only played through the first turn due to PC problems. After contacting Xerxes and trading techs I declared war honorably and launched the MWs. Really it was no contest: all 8 immmortals in the first two tiles were wiped out, and Persepolis sacked, with the loss of 3 MWs. The wounded MWs simply retreated to Niagara Falls for R&R. My next moves would involve bringing the rest of the MWs to the front to meet the (expected) counter-attack from whatever Immortals were still around. The terrain in front of Niagara Falls would make a good 'killing zone', especially with it being roaded open terrain, and outside of Persia's cultural borders. An additional insurance policy = the iron located in the SW, which (once hooked up) allows for warrior=> sword upgrades for the final conquest of all Persian lands. But most likely the MWs could cut the heart out of the Persian army in the fields outside of Niagara Falls, and then take the remaining Persian cities at their leisure.

I used to play the Persians quite a bit, specifically for the Immortal (ergo my avatar). Obviously they are quite good for early conquests, but they are vulnerable to fast movers when in open terrain -- something this exercise demonstrates quite graphically. The remedy is to team them up with cats and defensive units, and to look for invasion routes with good defensive terrain (forests, hills, etc.).

Thanks for the exercise, and good luck with the SG! :thumbsup:

So I'm reading through the 90+ pages of the Training Day Game run by Genghis Khan and others. I got to around page 70 where they mentioned this exercise. (It's taken a few weeks to read through all this, play the student turns through, examine the feedback, etc.)

I decided to try this. Thought it would be quick. That was some hours ago. I only played it once, and without reading the spoilers. I did reload one turn, but only because I kept skipping some regular warriors I wanted to upgrade in a stack of Mounted Warriors. Otheriwse I just played it through.

I took the basic mission as "Capture Arbela by 3500," but I didn't emphasize speed. I didn't even think of it. I wanted to emphasize efficiency, and maximizing the damage to Persia. I didn't manage my domestic affairs as I would have in a real game, but I wanted to hopefully take MORE than Arbela. I also wanted to apply everything I've been learning in the training day game. So I strategized a lot up front. I don't think this is going to all fit in one post.

First Contact Persia
They have Iron Working, which could be useful, and Masonry, which probably won’t be. We have Map Making, Horseback Riding, and Ceremonial Burial, none of which matter much to them in the short term. Since we’re about to go to war, we want to drain their treasury, and it would be nice to see if we have Iron.

Trade Map Making, Horseback Riding, Ceremonial Burial and our World Map for Iron Working and 200 Gold. (I couldn't trade my 3 techs for their 2 techs - I think I saw someone else trade 2 for 2? How?) Checked on their world map, but that’d cost us about 100 Gold, so I guess I’ll do my own exploring. I see they have 8 total cities – more than me.

MM to get rid of the entertainer in Oil Springs
MM Oil Springs to produce a warrior in 2 turns
MM other cities to de-emphasize growth and focus on producing warriors that we can upgrade to Swords - now that we know where our iron is. We have:
Allegheny producing a warrior in 1 turn (every 1 turn)
Tonwanda and Oil Springs every 2 turns
Cattaragus and Grand River every 5 turns
Salamanca and Niagara every 10 turns

5 and 10 turns are probably too long, but a few extra warriors become swordsmen from the more productive cities could help.

I have no galleys and building one would take about 8 turns.
Normally I’d use the scout to confirm/deny that our western island coast is really a coast, but my workers will be doing that soon, so send them to Niagara

Won’t be needing MP, so send all military units to Niagara

Niagara Falls has a barracks, so we can upgrade our warriors to Swords there once we hook up our Iron. I see we have a settler, but I think I can hook up the iron with a colony before the settler could get there. Our entire empire is connected by roads.

Before War, establish an embassy:
Persia’s capital is Arbela, not far from Persepolis, which we can already see
They have Iron connected up (makes sense – they have Immortals which require it) I do wonder where that iron is. Almost worth buying their map to find it, but without galley’s I have little hope of reaching it in under 10 turns unless I'm wiping out their empire anyway. They’re building Immortals every 3 turns in Persepolis and have 7 citizens, 1 wine lux, 1 entertainer they’re likely to whip out once war starts (they’re despotic). They have a granary, temple, and palace, and are growing slowly (36 turns). They’re running about 50% science and 50% tax. There are 3 immortals and 3 spearmen in the city – all regular (makes sense, they have no barracks).

Since there are veteran immortals on our borders, we can presume another city has a barracks and decent production capacity (this turned out to not be true). Almost all of their city squares are roaded (except 1 forrest and 1 hill) but there is apparently NO CONNECTION by road to other cities? This can’t be. I later discovered it's good programming by the Civ3 creators to reduce the info I get from the embassy, since I haven’t explored around that area yet. Nice touch I'd never noticed before. Two tiles of the southern Arbela radius are being worked by another city, implying another city perhaps S S or 2S, 1SW of Arbela. The main map also appears to show no road connections out of the Arbela radius. Arbela has a wheat, cow, and wine on a river? Nice place!

Arbela is built on a plain, but there’s a river on their NW and SW borders, making an attack from the obvious hill a poor idea. Going to have to circle around to the east. Look at me, haven’t even started a war and I’m taking the capital!

Intelligence – it’s important. I presume some of the things I’ve noticed are sneaky features, intended by the designers.

Contact Xerxes intending to tell him to get the heck out, hoping he’ll start the war and take the rep hit. Unfortunately, telling him to get out is not an option in the dialog! Guess I’ll not attack this turn. Letting him start the war could be bad for the spears in Niagara, but I can’t tell him to leave this turn! Plus, Xerxes is currently polite.

Set Science at 10% researching Mysticism. Set Lux at 10% to keep stupid Oil Springs from rioting.

Fortify the Spear and 3 mounted warriors in Niagara (for worst case 4 Immortal attacks). Skip the rest.

IBT
Lots of Immortals move into the Persian Empire. Now there are three by Niagara and 2 by Persepolis. Few barriers between me and Persepolis, but the city itself may be better defended now. No way to know for sure.

3950 BC
Failed to Notice last turn that Tonawanda culture would expand.

Workers continue to move toward the iron, one is on the proper square to start roading this turn. The SE-most worker (currently in Allegheny) can’t get to the iron in time to help, so send him to Niagara. All cities have enough improved squares to work at the moment.

New Warrior to Niagara, as all future new warriors will go to Niagara.

Since I can’t rush units with gold, perhaps I should change my mind and buy his world map. Or at least his territory map. We buy his territory map for 41 gold. Now we can see the iron fairly deep into the empire, and that he IS totally connected by roads. Nice touch – the Civ3 makers being careful not to reveal too much info via embassies and on the map.

All of his other cities are size 1 and 2 meaning he’s not going be turning out a large number of reinforcements.

Persepolis’ culture has not expanded, so as a size 1 city, it will auto-raze when I take it. This gives me a job for my new settler. I wish I was in Monarchy so I could rush walls/barracks there. Maybe my worker can join the city and be whipped into barracks. Since I cannot hook up Iron this turn, I will wait at least one more turn to declare war. (The option to ask Xerxes to leave IS now available in the diplomacy dialog.) Xerxes is still polite.

Skip all military units in Niagara.

IBT – all Immortals leave my territory! So much for having Xerxes start the war.
There are now 4 SW of Persepolis

3900 BC
Allegheny produces a warrior, make another!
Oil Springs produces Warrior, make another!
Move new warriors to Niagara
2 Workers road to iron…
Remaining worker standing on finished road moves onto Iron discovering that our apparent coast is, in fact, coast

If the Immortals leave the tile SW of Persepolis, I’ll be able to move my scout in, but that’s probably not worth much since I have maps now. Unless I want to sacrifice him in the hopes of pillaging a square.

Hey! I’m losing money! At 10% Science and 10% Lux, 80% TAX!?!? Lame, but OK.

Let’s give it one more turn to see if all the Immortals will get completely out of my way. Plus then I’ll be able to upgrade warriors to swords to have some defenders.

Skip all Military units in Niagara
Move new warrior to Niagara

IBT. Immortals move around but don’t leave the choke point
Persia starts the Pyramids. In Arbela – they’re only feasible production center for Immortals.

I'm concerned this message is too long. I'm going to break it into parts. Next part in a second.

Continuing my previous post

3850 BC
I must have undone some Micro Managing in Tonawanda since I got a warrior this turn and not last turn. I fix it.

Activate worker, build iron colony
Upgrade 2 veteran warriors in Niagara
Order workers to Niagara
I only have cash for 6 more warrior upgrades. I'm losing money. However, I'll start making some again as units die. I have several veteran warriors en route to Niagara, and a few more to be produced next turn, so don’t upgrade the remaining regular warriors there.

It’s time for war, I guess. Declare it and hit the Immortals outside of Persepolis with Mounted Warriors

Civ entered a golden age. Kind of a bummer given our tiny empire (and we’re despotic!) but I assume that’s all part of the exercise

First Mounted Warrior kills a veteran Imm taking 1 damage
MW does one damage, redlines and retreats
MW defeats Immortal, takes 2 damage
MW dies attacking 3/4 Immortal, who redlines and strangely doesn’t promote as he should have
Elite MW takes out 1/4 Immortal, taking 1 damage, but no Great Leader (sad…)
Spearman moves onto Elite MW next to Persepolis
All other mounted warriors join them (they will have movement left, if needed, for retreats if attacked – is this even necessary?) Of course it’s probably better to press the attack on Persepolis
Skip Scout and Settler in Niagara, along with the regular warriors and worker

If I press the attack, I don’t think my MW can retreat. Well, I do have more than 16 of them, so try it with one to double-check. Plus he may win! And it’s better to attack than defend with MW even if they can’t retreat.

MW defeats fortified spearman in Persepolis, but redlines.
MW could retreat! He retreats after causing 1 damage to fortified spear in city (bad camera angle)

I've now learned something important - and as I later learned, the point of Scoutsout's exercise - skirmishing. I was under the mistaken impression that for a unit to retreat it required remaining movement points. Serious misconception, showing I wasn't taking these sorts of units seriously in the past.

Press the attack so the Immortals counter-attack is minimized!
MW dies redlining an Immortal
MW takes 2 damage defeating injured spear in city, promotes
MW destroys persepolis after defeating injured Immortal, taking 1 damage
I get 5 gold
This reveals more immortals that were on the other side of persepolis, but they’re unreachable this turn.

It was probably too early to pass the settler and worker
Retreat all MW able to move back to 1 square SE of Niagara – injured that can return to Niagara

IBT
Mounted Warriors wisely retreat as assaulted by Immortals, but 2 die anyway. As does my spearman!

3800 BC
There are now 9 Immortals in view, 1 on the former site of Persepolis, 7 to his SE, 1 to their SE

Move the remaining injured MW to Niagara for R&R
Upgrade 2 veteran warriors in Niagara
Attack the 7 Immortals with a series of MW
1 retreat
1 dead Immortal
1 dead MW (redlined IM)
1 dead Immortal
1 dead Immortal
1 dead MW (redlined IM)
1 dead Immortal (he was already injured)
1 dead Immortal (he was already injured)
1 dead Immortal (he was already injured)
Attack remaining 1 HP immortal with the 4/5 MW in Niagara
Revealing 4 more Immortals to the NE of the 9 I was facing
Move Veteran swordsman onto forrest, “protecting” Elite MW

Continue the attack...
Attack the Immortal on the former site of Persepolis with MW, kill him and take 2 dam
Attack regular immortal to the east of the one I just fought – retreat redlined, he takes 1

Bring out the fortified MW from Niagara, hit him again, kill him taking no damage, revealing 2 more Immortals to the NE of his former position

Retreat the injured as far toward Niagara as I can, which for many of them is all the way
Exception – just skip two 3/4 MW where they stand
Move veteran Swordsman onto the stack on the plains choke point for protection, fortify him
Move 4 regular warriors to our easternmost stack (with the injured elite MW) to act as “shock absorbers”
Skip remaining non-combat units in Niagara, along with remaining regular warriors
Move remaining MW with movement (and full health) from Niagara to the plains choke
Skip the damaged units in Niagara
4 MW on the choke have movement left. Two have 2, indicating they haven’t attacked yet. Fortify the other 2 where they stand
Move the other two … hmmm.

I should have used the settler to build “New Persepolis this turn on the plains choke point – that would have pushed back the Persian culture and allowed me to use the road. Now if I move those two warriors onto the forest, they won’t be able to attack. Sigh. Oh well. Move them to the forest anyway, preparing for next turn

IBT
I view omiting the city thing as a Grievous error

Our stand-alone MW was hit by an Archer from Pasargarde, but defeated him and promoted, only to be cut down by the elite immortal
A series of Immortals attacked the forest square, leading to three retreated MW and a few dead warriors (and a dead swordsman). The shock-absorbers didn’t work as planned because the elite MW was 4/5 not 1/5 and I moved those other two full-health veteran MW onto the forest which drew fire as "better defenders" than the regular warriors.

3750 BC
There are 8 visible immortals: 1 Elite (uninjured), 1 Veteran (injured), and 6 regulars (all but 1 injured)

I stop and think. There are two basic options:

Option 1: ATTACK!!
Move Settler SE, E – just to the SW of the site of the former Persepolis and found Nupe
I’d rather have it on old Persepolis, but that would require another turn, because I didn’t move the settler forward a bit last turn in preparation. I need to hit the remaining immortals with the 5 remaining healthy MW while they’re injured, hopefully leaving Persia with 3 Immortals. At least 3 VISIBLE immortals.

Option 2: RETREAT!!
Fall back to Niagara this turn. The immortals won’t be able to reach me next turn because of the culture borders. This will give me time to heal the 5 injured MW currently ready to be healed in Niagara, as well as upgrade some more warriors to swords.

I opt for Retreat, thorougly absorbing Scout's lesson as I later learned.

1 shock absorber warrior fortifies on the forest
The other retreats to the plains choke point
All other units on the plains choke point retreat to Niagara, except swordsman who stops 1 tile short to defend, just in case…
The healthy MW SE of Niagara stays put (I don’t think the Immortals can reach this far)
The 2/4 MW also just rests where he stands SE of Niagara
All newly produced warriors move toward Niagara (cities are producing Spears and swords now, but these are too slow and far away to affect the conflict)
In Niagara:
Veteran warrior (with movement left from moving there from with the empire)upgrades
Settler moves 1 SE (preparing now to found that city I mentioned)
Scout moves 1 SE
Worker moves 1 SE
3 Regular warriors move to join their buddy on the plains choke and fortify (I only have gold to promote almost 4 more, and 4 veteran warriors arrive in Niagara next turn)
2 Swordsmen move 1 SE
2 Workers (who reached Niagara this turn from within the empire) move 1 SE
All other units in Niagara rest

IBT
We raise the self-esteem of the Immortals, who kill off my 5 warriors. However, the warriors acquit themselves well, defeating two of the 2/3 immortals. 1 unit is promoted (posthumously, as it turns out).

3700 BC
There are 6 immortals in view.
2 on the Plains choke Point (now PCP) 2/3 and 3/3
1 to the NE of PCP 3/3
3 to the E of PCP 5/5, 3/4, 2/3

I now have 11 healthy mounted warriors to hit them with. I think the remaining immortals are in for a bad day…

MW from Niagara attacks PCP, killing Immortal, he's now at 2/4
Elite MW (5/5) from Niagara kills unfortified 2/3 immortal on PCP taking no damage (no leader, dang it. I know it’s only 1/16 chance, but it would be nice…)
Vet MW from N kills Imm to NE of PCP, taking 1 dam (my guys rarely promote either)

Time for that new city we’ve been planning.
Settler moves E NE to old Persepolis site and founds NUPE (for New Persepolis)
Two workers immediately join the city

Veteran MW from Niagara dies at the hands of the accursed elite immortal, leaving him at 3/5
His comrade in arms, inspired by this gallantry, defeats the veteran 3/4 Immortal taking 1 dam
Another MW follows up by slaying the elite immortal, taking 2 damage
MW from N executes a flawless victory against the remaining 2/3 immortal

We’d really like to take the Persian capital to succeed in this test, but we spent a few turns before going to war - and attacking from the east side of the river will require 3 moves to get there! Gotta get cracking…

3 Swords currently SE of Niagara move E E E to 2 squares NW of Arbela

F7 would seem to indicate Arbela has stopped building that wonder…

Sword in Niagara moves to NUPE

Injured Niagara units rest
Worker moves to nupe
3/4 MW SE of Niagara rests
2/4 MW SE of Niagara rests
3/4 MW in nupe fortifies
2 injured MW SW of nupe move to nupe
Upgrade 3 Veteran warriors in Niagara
Upgrade 1 Regular warrior in Niagara (no more vets and other warriors are >1 turn away) (Now out of money, btw)
Scout moves E E E to join swords
3 healthy MW currently outside of cities move to join swords
3 healthy MW from Niagara move to join swords

We’ll call this “Scout’s Army” in honor of the scout there and the guy leading the challenge to us.

IBT
Persia moves a warrior from Pasargarde toward NUPE in a threatening fashion. Oh no!

3650 BC
Unforunately, it will take Scout’s army 2 turns to get into position to attack Arbela from the other side of the river. They move to the forest this turn, next turn targeting the wide open plain NE of Arbela. We may get hit this turn. So let’s bring up the rear guard now…

Swordsman from NUPE moves SE E to forest, right behind Scout’s Army
5 Veteran MW and 1 Elite MW move from Niagara to join him
3 vet swords from Niagara go to NUPE
1 regular sword from Niagara goes to NUPE
skip warrior in Niagara
Healthy MW SE of Niagara joins Scout’s rear guard
Injured MW rests where he stands

3/4 MW in NUPE kills annoying warrior to NE, taking no damage. Returns to city
Skip worker, injured MW in NUPE

IBT
Unfortunately, Xerxes still has some Immortals
1 comes up from the south
1 attacks from Arbela, killing a sword in scout’s army
3 or so attack from Pasargarde. They do less well – two of them die and promote us, one kills a sword

3600 BC
Vet MW from Scout’s army kills 2/3 Imm to the N, now 2/4
Healthy MW from NUPE moves E then crushes Imm 3/3 to his S

Scout’s Army moves SE across the river, in position to hit Arbela
Scout’s rear guard is mostly MW and can move 2 – they join scout’s army, except for the sword
That Sword and the MW to his SW (which just executed the flawless victory) both move to the hill W of Arbela. They’d be attacking across the river, but better that than fail to take Arbela because some crummy archer has 1 HP left…

The 2/4 MW SE of Pasargadae moves NE – the AI likes to kill weak units, so he’s probably toast, but he can move onto the iron next turn if Persia doesn’t get him. Could have sent one more MW this way for this job, too, but I really intend for Arbela to fall

3/4 MW SE of Niagara rests
2 Vet Swords from NUPE move E E to provide Pas with more targets (intending to preserve scout's army if possible)
1 Vet Sword from NUPE moves E SE
all 3 of these guys could move next to Arbela next turn, but I really hope that isn’t needed.

It turns out 5 MW in Scout’s army still have moves. I save here. I'm worried about Immortal attacks. I could attack now – and I’m hoping Arbela isn’t full of Immortals and archers, but I decide to wait until next turn when the whole army can attack at once. So I fortify them.

Now that I think about it. This is an error. What I should have done was stayed in that forest N of Arbela on the other side of the river. That would have provided me with better defense in case of immortal attacks and my 2-move MW could cross the river and THEN attack Arbela in the same turn! Grrr. I can’t believe I overlooked this.

Skip worker in NUPE
Skip 3/4 MW in NUPE
Fortify regular sword in NUPE

IBT
No attacks – perhaps indicating a paucity of Immortals?

3550 BC
Scout’s Army hits Arbela – the whole point of this exercise
Vet MW retreats from 2/3 Spear
MW defeats regular spear, goes 3/4
MW defeats regular spear, goes 2/4
Vet MW defeats regular spear, goes ¼
Vet MW dies at the hands of unfortified Immortal
A fortified 2/3 spear is now the best defender – there’s still that injured immortal, but other defenders? Seems unlikely they’d have anything with a defense of 1 in there.
Vet MW defeats 2/3 spear and goes 2/4
Now there’s a fortified immortal. Did he fortify after I last attacked him or is this another immortal who attacked 2 turns ago, went to 1 and healed 1 last turn?
Hit him with – you guessed it, a vet MW, who kills him and goes 2/4
An unfortified 1/3 immortal remains – time to break out
ELITE mounted warrior kills 1/3 Immortal
TAKES ARBELA, WHILE CREATING A GREAT LEADER (Shenandoah)
I rename the unit, in honor of he who posed the challenge Scoutsout Mounted Warrior

I wouldn’t believe it if I didn’t play it myself. You cannot imagine my disappointment at seeing someone else post essentially the same result.

I levy 4 tax collectors on Arbela

For bonus points I hit Pasargarde with two swordsmen, who execute flawless victories, destroy the city and capture 2 workers. Guess the spears were depressed. Then I take the remaining 4 units across the river to Tarsus, destroying it as well. (Mistakenly first went for Antioch and had to reload (out of movement due to river crossing), but figure I’m in bonus territory.) This eliminates Persia’s iron, incidentally.

I could get 2 of their remaining 4 total cities for Peace.

Objective completed in 3550

By playing 3500 I was able to destroy Susa and take Antioch, but there was a tough guy in Gordium. I could get:
World Map
Bactra
Masonry
Mysticism
82 Gold

for a peace treaty, though, leaving Xerxes with one city. I wanted to wipe them out, but just couldn't quite make it - particularly with the one city way up in the jungle.

Thanks for the fun challenge. I'd be interested in any feedback on my strategy or tactics, of course.

Hi there.
I just finished lurking through 71 pages of the Mother o' All Thread and wished to give a try to the exercice :). But it appears the savefile is no longer hosted. Could anyone upload it again?
Thanks, great job in Socratic teaching :goodjob:.

Hi there.
I just finished lurking through 71 pages of the Mother o' All Thread and wished to give a try to the exercice :). But it appears the savefile is no longer hosted. Could anyone upload it again?
Thanks, great job in Socratic teaching :goodjob:.
scout or i will upload it sometime tonight. i will PM him to see if he has it. not sure what happened to the link but i noticed last night that "upload6" and lower is not available anymore so maybe that's the problem. sit tight for now :)

...just a quick note to confirm to Kute that I got Grahamiam's PM, and I'll look for that save. I'm sure I've got it... somewhere.

I see, you have noticed the missing link. I give this a try if it works again.

Many thanks guy, i'm looking forward it. (page 78 now, to stay in learning/open mind mode for so long is already a training perse ;) )

Here is the save file.

GK2.1 Exercise (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/GKT-MW-IM-3.SAV)

@scout - you can renew the link in your first post by changing the upload folder to 8, since I re-uploaded the file.

Thanks Gator! :goodjob: I just updated the first post with your link. I appreciate that.

I need to take another look at Swedish Chef's log this evening. I remember looking at it before, but it appears I neglected commenting on it.

many thanks gator :thumbsup: good luck kute, have fun :)

I'm not on the GK2 team but this sounded like a lot of fun so I gave it a try.

First: I go to Persia and get Iron Working, World Map, and 190 gold for Ceremonial Burial, World Map, and Map Making. Check Military Advisor. Persia has a strong military compared to us. Declare war. Send workers to mine hills and when they finished joined settler into the capital. Now I get a Mounted Warrior from the capital every 2 turns (making 13 spt frustrated me because I got an MW every 3 turns but lost a total of 9 shields per build.) Build road to Iron. Destroy Immortals at chokepoint with Mounted Warriors, send them back to Niagara Falls.

Next: Fortifying MWs at Niagara Falls. Anything that gained health or didn't lose much from combat went to attack more Immortals. In-between turns most of these MWs were destroyed, but this was fine because it softened up the Immortals. Persepolis captured.

After that: MWs destroyed again IBT. Most healed and get back the Immortals.

Turn 4: Time to take a big risk. Only 1-2 health point MWs guard Niagara Falls and switch off with others, but there is a spearman there. I send the spearman to the space MWs moved to when they saw a stack of Immortals, which turns out to be the last I ran into. They (Immortals) destroy the spear, but not the MWs. Persia's military is now weak compared to mine, according to the advisor.

Later on: A few more MWs come to Arbela. Preparing to attack. Lots of warriors get upgraded to Swordsmen in case we need reinforcements.

Last turn: MWs win the battle of Arbela and raze the city at 3700 BC.

What I Learned: Two important advantages over the Immortal with MWs. When you look at the stats, Immortals clearly look better. But in the hands of a human player, MWs can definitely win. The 2 advantages are: A. Offense. Immortals are basically Spearmen with high attack, and they're usually not fortified. This makes it easy to destroy them with MWs. B. Speed. Have a city near fighting (like Niagara Falls) and have your MWs run back there really fast to heal and go back to fighting. Switching off, the MWs can defend the city pretty well and fight at the same time. And take advantage of retreating when attacked. The MW goes back to the city, heals, and fights again. MWs are very good units that have a combat edge even when outnumbered.

many thanks gator :thumbsup: good luck kute, have fun :)
HEH, thanks but I hope luck will have not the big part in this, it's all about learning skills :mischief:

Here it comes:

Build Ambassady for 41
Arbela: 3 spearmen, 3 immortals
Strong military

Map Making <-> Iron Working, World Map, 5gp
Masonry, 104gp <-> Cerem Burial, Horseback Riding
World Map <-> 16 gp
Move Scout on the incense hill
World Map <-> 1 gp

Niagara Falls:
20 Mounted Warriors, all vet except 1 elite

2 Mounted Warriors hit the dust, 8 Immortals die, the Last MW is promote to Elite as he stomped on Persian land, I see another 4 Immo stacks, one turn ahead (with 1 elite)... Drat one move short to Niagara Falls.

IBT: yes! retreated from archer when redlined.

3950:
Let's use the reinforcement before using any moves from Niagara Falls' SoD.
Lost one MW to the elite before a second one defeated him.
Let's open the gate at Niag and see how my braves behave... first dies.. the other 2 kill, no one was brave enough to take the flag of leadership vs the archer (elite MW).
I choose to let another Immortal wave to crash on our glorious killing field and wait inside Naigara Falls.The warriors rush in the town to witness some bloodshed.

IBT, 8 Immortals fell into our trap and are now in stomping range.

3900 ...Humm why are there 2 radio towers :eek: around Arbela? (i'm running the mod in C3C, since it refused to run in my Civ3. Both Civ3 and C3C are french, and the problems came with missing unit data(actually translated stuff is not linked correctly) .. weird it even accepted to run with C3C). Well at least only 1 is in the 2 tile radius of Arbela, I guess I know my next objective...

2 first MW redlined but scored, 3rd died and promoted a foe. Sending an Elite vs the wounded freshly promoted yet-to-proove immortal, no mighty brave shone through the fight.
Humm the second stack of 3 is in persia, and kills 2 of my MW, only one Immortal with 2hp left, but this time i'll not overextend, it will die in time.

IBT, only 1 immortal rushed on our territory
3850 We have a strong military! (a couple of warrior finished their training last turn)
Iron due to join next turn, lets not be foolish and wait. (1 redlined MW withdraw, 1 dies to the immortal...and finally no more Xman troups around)

IBT cultural extension, only 1 immortal on persian ground

3800
Iron colozined, 4 Warriors are now wielding powerfull iron sword!
Let's try a dash to Persepolis, with it destroyed, our cultural border will allow the spearman to protect our mounties. Persepolis fall to my first 2 mounties, leaving only 1 MW exposed.
Mauch Chunk founded on the tile SW of former Persepolis, the forest (and it's road) is now ours.
Sending a MW on the forest.. hmmm the radio tower is protected by the injured immortal, can't go there.

IBT a lone immortal wanders around

3750 a MW sack the radio tower and the spearman on it
the exposed MW killed the Immortal and claimed the forest NW of Arbela, nice spot, it will allow me to cross the river next turn, move my fully healed SoD on it (spear include)!
i'm wicked enough to sacrifice a worker and the scout to push the fog of war away (chances are Xman won't disband the worker)

IBT ack Alleghny is rioting (I should not have focused on the purpose of the excercise ;p)

3700 good news, the scout died to a regular warrior and the worker is still there. Xman is gazed.
The SoD cross the river, the spear stomp on a mined grassland, the worker enjoy the sun on the hill.

IBT An immortal in Arbela.. An elite MW retreats.

3650 17(and a redline Elite) MW in line to take Arbela : 2 MW killed for 2 spear and 1 immortal.
------
In conclusion, nice exercice, are the radio towers a feature or a bug? It sure scared me out for a moment. There is indeed a lot of Mounted Warrior, more than enough to claim the persian capital, but on the other hand it's a good thing. Many players don't build more than a handfull of unit and don't understand why they don't conquer easily. With that SoD handy they will 1) see the benefit of troops building, 2) see the towns can cope without a full infrastructure, and 3) will go sling-ho on the persian without fear of losing their troops. :goodjob:

@Swedish Chef: Sorry I didn't look at your log before now, but it looks to me like you learned from the exercise... particularly the point this one was designed to teach.

One note: If the AI has troops in your territory and you do not have the "Move Or Declare War" option, tell the AI to move his troops out of your territory. On the next turn you will normally get the "Move or Declare" option if the same units were left in your territory, even if the trespassing unit is just a worker.

@Viper: As you continue to play the game, you will find that your observation about Mounted Warriors and Immortals in the hands of a human player can be applied to other units as well.

@Kute: I have no idea why you had Radar towers in your game. That is odd...because vanilla Civ3 has no equivalent to radar towers. The scenario was fairly basic, so that may have contributed to some of the oddities you experienced. I'm glad you were able to play it.

...and I hope you all got some enjoyment and benefit from it. :goodjob:

The radar towers happened to someelse when they ran it in C3C. Apparently the requirement to create them is not included because the save is a Civ III game and they did not exist in Civ III, so the AI built them.

Kute, you should have been able to open it in Civ III since it is unmodded. Are you modded for the GOTMs?

Never tried a Gotm, so no i'm not moded. The weird part was tha C3C opened the save and not Vanilla. I might have fumbled with a Civ3 patch somewhere, it looks like i used an english patch on a french version. *shrugs*
But yes, the scenario is fun and helpfull, so you did not do it for nuthin'. And many thanks fo' your quick link. :)

Thank you Scoutsout for this interesting and very helpful exercise. I've learnde a lot.
Although I'm a little late, I tried it out at home and would like to post my results.

Since my german version of Civ1.29f can't read the file, I used PTW1.27fG.

Pre War Analysis

(founded only on information available at 4000bc)

Immortals have a much greater attack value than the defense value of
Mounted Warriors. So, MW has to attack and must not be attacked. On the other side,
MW have more movement points. We can use this for an active defense
of Niagara Falls. Take all Mounted Warriors into this town and attack, when
Immortals arrive before the city. Since Mounted Warriors have an additional
mouvement point, they can retreat into Niagara Falls and heal completely using
the Barracks.

Is there another use of two movement points? I planned to attack citys or stacks
from a distance of 2 tiles. Of course, one has to take the city or eliminate the
enemy stack in one turn to avoid counterattacks.

What can we do, if we attack inside the Persian Cultural border?
It is impossible to use Persepolis in this way since northeast Persepolis is a river
and on the souteast is a forest: a defense bonus for the units
that we want to attack. Since we don't know yet engineering, crossing rivers costs
one movement point.

Question: A Mounted Warrior attacks across a river, wins and crosses the river.
Has he still a movement point?

Second problem: inside the Persian cultural borders, the Persian units
can move faster on roads. This is dangerous, because my units can be attacked before
I can do anything.
My plan was to take the settlers into Persia and found at
an appropriate site a town. The surrounding tiles must be without defense bonus.
The roads around a new city give no movement bonus to enemy units because we
have cultural influence. The problem might be a cultural flip.

Diplomacy

I contacted Xerxes and tradet technologies: gave Ceremonial Burial and Map Making,
obtained Masonry and Iron. Since 2-movement units are our only tactical advantage, I gave not away Horsback riding.
Unfortunately, I dit not establish an embassy or tradet maps.

The Defense of Niagara Falls

Firstly, I declared war. then I attacked the Imm directly SE before Niagara Falls.
Two units of Mounted Warriors died without taking a HP off the Imm !!! Why ??
Then I changed production in most of my cities to Mounted Warriors. I lost 5 or 6
MW as fought the first two stacks of Immortals.
After this loss I got nervous, because I could not know, how many Immortals where build in this exercise. So I did something I have never done before in CivIII: I poprushed some Mounted Warriors. With the Golden Age, production run much better, so I got enough units.

Then I got a great Leader.

Immediately I build an army of 3 Mounted Warriors. It is possible to attack twice,
and it has have 12 HP. Against a numerically superior opponent it is better to give up
one attack in order to have a higher survival probability.

One turn later I got a second Great Leader !!! unfortunately, it was impossible to
create another army. For every army, 4 citys are needed and we have only 7 citys.
So I rushed Herioc Epic, but no more Leader appeared.
I left my units in Niagara Falls, until the stream of Immortals dried out.
Since this is a constructed scenario,it is impossible to estimate, how many Immortals
are there. I was even more carefully than normally
not to risk a large part of my troops.

Invasion

My invasion into Persia was not optimal. I lost some units (e.g. my settlers)
and won only because my army was quiete large. I had units with one movement point in my stack of Mounted Warriors. After moving the stack one tile, it was impossible
to move the Mounted Warriors further.

Post game analysis

After reading the tread with the descriptions of the other players, I've seen
that I have not remarked some facts. Pillaging roads can slow down enemy troops and
give the possibility to counterattacks.

DJMGator13, you pillaged one tile southwest of Persepolis. This gave two counterattack
possibilities before they could attack Niagara Falls (if they survive).
This is of course better than the one attack possibility against 1 movement point units
we have automatically since they can not use our roads.

Furtermore, I did not consider that 2 mp units have another movement point, if they
attack with their first MP. (run away)

One question remains. Have troops better chances to win, if I produce at the same time more troops of this type ??? I had this impression already when I played CivI.

Thanks again.

One question remains. Have troops better chances to win, if I produce at the same time more troops of this type ??? I had this impression already when I played CivI.

What you are producing has nothing to do with the the chance to win. There are several combat calculators available in the Utility forum here that you can use to see the win percentages.

Furtermore, I did not consider that 2 mp units have another movement point, if they
attack with their first MP. (run away)

Or to continue moving forward after killing the offending unit ;)

Thank you, DMJGator13. I've found these utilities.