I want to try out a rough warmonger game without a couple of tools that give the human that extra punch. Are we able to conquer the world without these?

VARIANT RULES AND STUFF (editted after remarks anarres, Greebley; June 17th 17.56 PM CET)
-No artillery units (catapults, trebuchets, cannons, artillery, mobile artillery)
-No bombers
-No armies
-We cannot initiate MA's or MPP's, but we can accept them if the AI offers (we are not forced to).
-ALWAYS accept peace if the AI offers it, as the AI will do for you.
-'Use or lose' units: you have to use the units in the turn order. It is not allowed to cycle through them. This is to simulate the AI way of using units.
-We cannot attack a city unless there is a speed 1 unit adjacent to said city
-Upgrading more than 1 unit/turn not allowed. To simulate the fact that the AI can't handle this one as well.
-Pillaging can only be done by defensive units.
-Domination/Conquest are the only victory types allowed.
-Deity level
-(EDIT: June 19th 16.40 CET) Random Civ, random map, random AI, random barbarians, standard size
-C3C 1.22

BANNED TACTICS
These are the exploits that I want to avoid in the game:

"Phony Peace Treaty": Making Peace Treaties without having the intention to stay at peace, just to get cheap techs or money.

"Palace Jump"; Jumping the palace by disbanding the capital. Rushing a palace or building it brick by brick is OK.

"RoP Rape": Using Right of Passage to move whole armies into attack position.

"Throwaway Cities": It is possible to go everywhere by settling, moving a setter one tile further in, abandoning the old city, founding a new one, etc...etc... A city shouldn't be abandoned in the same turn as it is settled.

"Resource Piracy": Sitting on resources or deny a civ access to a tile inside the borders of the rival while at peace.

"Seed Corn": It is not allowed to buy the LAST TWO workers from the AI before 1000 BC.

"Negative cash research": The penalty of negative cash is only one unit/improvement. So there are cases where this can be worthwile. Science spending must be lowered when the cash would go below zero.

OTHERS:
Things that I didn't name but are in the spirit of what I mention above I would like to have discussed.

ROSTER
Aggie
Greebley
grs
anarres
Beam

I probably can use a couple of players with deity warmonger experience.

24hrs to post a "got it" notice, and up to 48hrs after that to finish and post your turns. I will start with 25 turns. Next up can take 15/20 turns, and the next leader 10/15, then 10 each turn after that.

TBH these tactics are not that limiting.

One thing you should consider is ALWAYS accepting peace if the AI offers it, as the AI will do for you.

Maybe also consider not upgrading more than 1 unit/turn to simulate the lame way the AI sits with old units around.

Finally, maybe you should consider only mixed unit stacks. Horse based (i.e. fast) units can leave the stack to attack, but no more than twice the number of horses to slow units. For example, if you have 10 horses you need 5 slow units along, and you can't just leave the rest to beeline to a city - you have to move the stack together. The horse units could be allowed to leave the stack to attack, but then they must return to it - they can't just head for the city.

If you were to use something like this I would consider joining. ;)

I just thought of a better restriction!

You HAVE to "use or lose" a unit in the order in which the game cycles them.

This would mean that when you start your turn you HAVE to move the unit that is selected or press space. No skipping and returning - because the AI can't do that either. I would definitely join if you also included this rule. :D

Hmm, interesting thoughts! I also had the impression that I should up the difficulty, hence the strong AI and pelago map.

Always accept peace is something I can agree with. It crossed my mind I must say. 'Use or lose' also sounds VERY intriging. I have more difficulty with 'only upgrade one unit/turn and mixed stacks only. I could add those, but then we REALLY have to depend on superior empire management/trade/science skills to survive. That would make it a potentially very rich game.

You know what? I'm going to do it :)

I will drop the map and AI stuff and would suggest pangaea map/random AI instead.

EDIT: I don't know how to implement the mixed units stack rule though... It's difficult to make it clear imho.

heh. /me in then. :)

The "use or lose" is gonna make it tough, but otherwise it would be just like a normal deity game where you get no MGL (and win before arty/bombers).

We have to decide on a civilization to use. I must say that I am open for a lot of them, but want to avoid seafaring/expansionist/agricultural...

I changed the game rules in the first post. Are they clear to you anarres?

I expect the stack rule to lead to much more individual units moving around the battle field, as these are not stacked. This is also a very good representation of AI behaviour. FWIW the stack rule should probably not apply to units in cities, since they are not an attacking stack, but merely defensive units.

I think this game will be quite tough now, and will require serious thought before we head in to battle. Not being able to cycle through units could be a real bastard - do you fortify your 3HP Cav when it is up against a fortified vet Musket in a city and hope that you have enough 4HP Cavs to take, or do you take the risk and attack? :hmm:

Signing in.

The additional rules are interesting, especially the "use or lose" rule. But I think the "mixed units stack rule" is not that good. It's more like a calculators job to see which horse will be allowed to move and which not, especially with civ not showing detailed movement points (roads e.g.). I would like that rule to be dropped. Other additions add flavor - this does imho not.

Well, some kind of rule that stops us using a stack of 20 horses is needed, as I have NEVER seen the AI do that! :)

I am open to suggestions (as I am sure Aggie is too), but otherwise we will end up with huge stacks of horses that all move one after the other and it won't be that challenging.

Ummm...I've seen the AI move a stack of 40+ horses/war chariots together with no defending units. Does that count?

Not a sign-up, BTW. Too much going on in other places.

Arathorn

Not a sign-up, but with your restrictions, the Zulu might be a good choice. Their 2-move Impi would allow you to avoid having your Horsemen running out too far ahead and getting slaughtered.

Edit: Btw, how are you going to deal with unfortifying a unit as to its order in the turn (I've seen the AI do this plenty of times)? Unfortify only at the end or whenever?

Not a sign-up, but just a question.

Why the rule no MAs and MPPs? The AI definitely do those things.

Very interesting game variant. Will follow this one closely.

Yes, but the AI doesn't use MA's tactically. Humans use it to distract a civ mostly. The AI does not :) I had to choose between either seeking a form of random MA/MPP or voting against it.

Not a sign up, as I think this one may be beyond me.

For your mixed stack rule, you could drop the ratio and impose some set amount of slow units. EX: stack 1-10 req 2 slow units, 11-25 requires 4, etc.

For that matter, using a single slow unit in each stack would negate the speed, as I think that's the goal here.

Not a sign up...

This is going to be very interesting, I will follow this closely.

There's certainly a lot of interest to lurk :) But the team is still really really small :(

@SesnOfWthr: It's certainly an idea. I await the discussion about it before I make a final decision.

I am not sure it is wise, but I will play :D

Sounds like it will not be an easy game.

Are you sure we can't make random and meaningless MPP's? It would add zest.

But the team is still really really small

Well I think you need to post a final set of rules. There may be several people such as myself who think this sounds interesting. However, without seeing the final rule version I won't commit to it. It is start to sound too variant for my taste.

Welcome Greebley :)

@Lee: The final rules won't be THAT much different.

To me the most difficult rule to follow is the one about grouping. Maybe we could drop that one. I don't think the AI follows it anyway, and it is confusing to know when it applies.

How about the following changes:

We cannot initiate MA's or MPP's, but we can accept them if the AI offers (we are not forced to).

We cannot attack a city unless there is a speed 1 unit adjacent to said city.

[Edit: one more in conjuction with the above - pillaging can only be done by defensive units].
----

This would replace the stacking limitation and the MA MPP rule

How about the following changes:

We cannot initiate MA's or MPP's, but we can accept them if the AI offers (we are not forced to).

We cannot attack a city unless there is a speed 1 unit adjacent to said city.

[Edit: one more in conjuction with the above - pillaging can only be done by defensive units].
----

This would replace the stacking limitation and the MA MPP rule

I like the first two (we can accept MA/MPP if AI offers it, no attack of a city unless a slow unit is also next to it). They are clear and don't make things a lot easier. I don't know about the pillaging though.

What does the rest of the team think about these suggestions?

I was just trying to think of the advantages fast unstacked units would give us over the AI and pillaging was one of them. The AI tends to use spears, pikes, etc to pillage with. We would be able to use TOW, and MI to pillage. They seem to use those defensively.

Don't care if we don't use it, but I would if not advocate explorer pillaging to slow the AI.

[Edit: Note that AI does attack cities with fast units if that matters - I was more going with Annares ?intent? of not allowing us to over-run the AI with fast units.]

I prefer the idea of being forced to accept any deal the AI offers, since that is what the AI does for you, although I can understand if people think this is going too far. Accepting MA/MPP deals if offered is a good "second best" for me.

I definitely like the "slow unit next to city to attack" rule - this makes the stacking problem go away (or at least deals with the main reason for the rule I first suggested).

Pillaging with slow units seems fine to me, I'm not sure I see that many AI Cav units run in, pillage and then get away again.

OK, I will change/add the suggestions of Greebley, including the pillaging. But that's that :)

What civ do we want to play with?

EDIT: I will start up the game with a team of 5 (we are now with 4).

The only problem with forced acceptance (though I agree it makes the game more like the AI) is that going in and out of wars willy-nilly makes strategy difficult. Also our rep will quicky be trashed. I think things like strategic planning of our wars and such should be still there as this one of the key attributes that makes the game interesting.

In a nutshell, I guess I want to immitate AI tactics, but keep human strategy.
For me it the strategy part that makes the game interesting.

Nice rule changes, but this question still remains.

Edit: Btw, how are you going to deal with unfortifying a unit as to its order in the turn (I've seen the AI do this plenty of times)? Unfortify only at the end or whenever?

When are we allowed to unfortify?

On chosing a civ, what about the French? They probably have the best slow moving unit in the game - at least in c3c - and are underplayed anyways.

Hmm... that is a tricky question. I missed it on my first read through.

If you say the end of the turn then you can keep certain units in reserve, so I would have to say the beginning of the turn makes most sense (you do get to choose the first unit to move, but I don't that would really matter). The problem with that is you then may miss a unit. Are you out of luck then?

The following seems best to me:

One should fortify only for defensive reasons.
Wake fortified units you might want at the start of the turn.

Can anyone think of something better?

Important question: It is possible to put units to sleep until next to an enemy. Do you get the defensive fortify bonus in that case if it is attacked?
It might be useful if so...

I think that Greebley solved the biggest part of the fortify issue.

grs has an interesting choice of civ with the French :)

I don't know what consequences 'the sleep until next to an enemy has.'

One should fortify only for defensive reasons.
Wake fortified units you might want at the start of the turn.
This seems good.

Important question: It is possible to put units to sleep until next to an enemy. Do you get the defensive fortify bonus in that case if it is attacked?
Don't know the answer, but also don't understand the importance of this matter for our game.

If a unit wakes up by itself you don't need to manually wake it and affect the order. This means any attacked unit is automatically put in the queue. If you only used Sentry for units that were going to be attacked and got the defensive fortify bonus, you would never have to wake up any units

You may be right about it not being important... The set of the units that are attacked and the set of units that could be attacked may be too different and the more I think about it the more I feel they won't give the bonus to sentries.

[Edit: I forgot to vote for a civ.

My vote is for "random"

The AI doesn't get to always play the optimal civ for the game. In the spirit of not having the human advantage, I think we should give up the opportunity to pick the optimal civ (if such exists)

There's still room for two more players. With one more I will start the game :)

When you say "domination and conquest are the only ones allowed you mean that all victories are enabled, but we have to get domination or conquest to "win". Is that correct?

That is correct Greebley.

Have been lurking through a few of your games Aggie, and I must say this looks like the most interesting one yet :)

Another suggestion, is to only explore with auto-explore order?

Would join the game, but don't have much time for civ these days, but I'm happy to make a map for you :cool:

Thanks Tarkeel. But I want to make this one with the random map generator :)

Seems you need people. :)

I just don't quite like the "use or lose" units rule, otherwise I'd like to join. The reason is that without being able to go through the units, you would have a hard time knowing which units are really available at the beginning of your turns. The game doesn't tell you if a unit has more movement unless you try to move it. It's also quite against my playstyle and might take away a lot of fun. So I probably have to watch.

I personally don't care if we axed that one rule. If there were armies or artillery or bombers the rule would have a large affect. Without those I am not sure how much difference it will make.

Thinking on it, the biggest differences to me are:

1) I can't move a unit a second time after something happens (the horse attacks and kills a defender, and later moves into the city. That one could be simulated by saying you can only visit a unit once. Hit space or fortify it.

2) I have a stack of spears to go in once the town is taken, but they go first meaning they have to delay a turn before entering. Thus it is random if you can fortify defenders in the town or not. I am not crazy about this as a limitation. The AI for example gets production so they usually do have a defender. I think we could axe this as it isn't necessarily useful and is too random.

3) Planning your attack on the city is easier if you can choose the unit order, but not by that much. The biggest difference is you can't attack with the strongest unit first. I am unsure on this one as not being able to choose does add something to make it more AI like.

So doing 1 is easy, doing 2 is unimportant, and doing 3 may be the nub of the matter.

Microbe and Annares, what do you think? We can say one or more of:

"A unit can only be visited once a turn (if you start to move it you must take its full turn"

"You must decide whether a unit is to be fortified or not at the start of the turn"

"We could encourage the player to take the order given as much as possible, but allow them to switch when they want"

"We could limit the number of units you can select in a turn to say five so mostly you get the order given"

Anyway those are my thoughts. Did I miss anything on how choosing your order affects the game?

"We Could drop all unit ordering restrictions"

The biggest problem for me is that I feel dizzy when I read your post. :)

In the game it would be difficult to strictly implement either, when you have a lot of units. I'm so used to changing the unit order, and imagine I misclick a unit and screw up all the order in a long tedious warring turn, am I going to have to replay this turn again? It would be much better if we only need to preserve the order inside a stack.

To me the rule looks overcomplicated and doesn't add fun to the game..

But, some fundamental questions first:

1. Are we sure that AI never visits a unit again? (like in your example, a horse attacks a city and has a movement left, are you sure the AI will not let this unit wait and move it into the city after it's taken?)

2. Are we sure AI would not change the order of units in a stack when it attacks? We know that the best defender is always used when a stack is attacked, why can't the AI choose to use the best offender first when a stack is attacking?

That is just a list of possibilties we don't use all of them. My preferred method would be simply:

--------------------------------------------------

"You cannot go back and move a unit that has already moved"

--------------------------------------------------

It is difficult to explain and I get wordy when that happens. Sorry, about that. The above rule is part 1) above only part 3) is too hard to do if we don't go with Annares rule

"You cannot go back and move a unit that has already moved"

It's simple enough for me. :) But I still would like to know the answer to my questions. Are we just guessing what the AI does or we know AI tactics for certain?

I am *almost* certain that the AI does not get to go back to units.

Just look at how they move them - there is no coherent strategy at all, and I have seen the AI do the following a million times:

1) move a cav next to your city (1 move point)
2) attack the city (1 move point)
3) move away from the city (1 move point)
4) repeat with multiple units until it wins
5) the last unit moves in to the city and fortifites

This is pretty clear indication that it isn't leaving it's units with 1 move left until the city is won and then moving the rest in. Not a proof that it doesn't go back to units, but tried and tested AI behaviour.

You also see slow units just outside the city border move towards the city (i.e. to attack it) the same turn, before and during the cavs moving in 1 by 1 to take it.

I really like the "use or lose" rule, I think it makes the game a lot harder, but wasn't there an SG that used build governors for all cities? Wasn't that adding flavour and yet at the same time greatly restricting what you could do?

For me I don't think the rule is complicated at all. Playing with the rule may lead to complex situations, but I don't think that is beyond any of us. Regarding a misclick in the game - as long as you know what unit you are "moving" at any one time it is easy to get back in to the correct order by simply selecting that unit again.

as long as you know what unit you are "moving" at any one time it is easy to get back in to the correct order by simply selecting that unit again.

If you have units in order A, B, C, and A is active. If you activate C by clicking it, and go back to A, will the order become A, C, B or still A, B, C?

Anyway, I just signed up for Bugs2 so I think I have to pass this one. Just ignore all my comments then. :)

OK, to get rid of the confusion: we stick to the rules as stated in the first post. So nothing has changed today :)

The last thing I want to do is boss people around or impose my will on them, so please don't do anything to pander to my desires Aggie!

@microbe - the order goes back to ABC. The only time the order changes is when you move a unit (not just select it). Also worth noting that stack movement doesn't actually chage the move order, although this shouldn't affect the game since units will need to be moved individually. I hope I haven't affected your decision not to play in this SG microbe.

Regarding the "Accept Peace" rule: can we negotiate the best deal when they offer peace or do we have to accept whatever terms they give? Personally I prefer the first option.

anarres: I only reacted after microbe posted that he wouldn't join. Microbe has played in a lot of my SG's (and other ones as well). He also started a few of his own. So I can imagine that he is too busy to join this one that doesn't appeal to him very strongly.

I hope I haven't affected your decision not to play in this SG microbe.

Don't worry, the real reason is that I am currently in 7 SGs already! And I didn't sign up for this one anyway, just participated in the discussion. :)

BTW, I am perfectly fine with your restriction Annares - I agree it adds to the challenge. I was exploring possiblities mostly.

So it sounds we are all in agreement then on that.

Do we play with a random civ? I think this game calls for it.

Random civ is fine by me.

A couple of pre-game thoughts:

- On every Deity game I have ever played I go for max science, which works well every time. On rare occasions I have to wait a little before I can get there, but I expect to be leading the tech race out of the Ancient Age. I hope we can play this kind of game here, but I guess it depends on how everyone tends to play. Obviously the situation is the final arbitrater in certain circumstances.

- I expect how we fight wars will change massively. They will be much slower and more haphazard. Can we try to talk about this as much as possible in the first sets of turns so we can all get a feel for what it is like. I can imagine someone at the end of the turns order in the first rotation being thown in to a tough situation, and we need to make sure we are all as prepared as possible.

Oh, and I agree on a Random civ, it's always fun. :)

Thinking on it more I think completely random might be better. If you know something about the map you are already making distinctions that are far beyond the AI's ability to do. They have to have a way to handle heavy barbs and no barbs for example. If we choose no barbs then we settle without escorting settlers at all. Similar with contintent shape, etc.

I am going to advocate everything but the size be random. We will quickly find out the state of things, but at least at the beginning we have to come up with a more general strategy.

- On every Deity game I have ever played I go for max science, which works well every time.

C3C calls for the philosophy gambit, at least if we get alphabet soon or start with it; so I'd start researching (alphabet) - writing - philo at min. I normally try to get a tech lead by researching something off the ai way like (after philo) col and the republic.

Aggie, you think I showed enough deity warmonging experience in the CDZ MM? ;)

If so, sign me up.

You sure did Beam :) Welcome aboard! This means that we are ready to go [party] (although one more is always welcome).

The start:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG11start.jpg

We are the Greeks!

I would suggest the following looking at the save:
-Worker to BG north
-Settler NW (to reach the coast) unless worker reveals beautiful stuff
-Start with curragh, then warrior
-Start on min science Writing, aiming to get either Philo or Literature @1st.

Comments? :)

ROSTER:
Aggie----up
anarres--on deck
grs
Greebley
Beam
open spot

Looks good. Agree on the suggested moves, although Phil should really be our aim. Unless an AI gets Writing real soon we should be able to get it first.

You can't move the worker first - use or lose the settler. Otherwise I agree, just hope it's really a coast and not a lake, sad we can't have a look with the worker first... ;)

Good point! I tried to figure out another ruling (to only include units with attack or defense points), but that would make things too difficult. I will move the settler first in accordance to 'use or lose'.

That makes further discussion at this point less interesting imho, so I will start with the first 25 :)

The G(r)eeks, not bad for a random Civ. Agree with the moves. What were the settings for the map Aggie, all random?

Beam, everything is random (our tribe, the AI, the landmass, the barbarians!!), except for the map size.

Settler sent NW. It is indeed coast. Worker moves N to BG.

Turn 1 (3950 BC) Athens founded. We reveal a wheat on plains, a goody hut and ivory :) Curragh is ordered. Science to Writing (20%).

Turn 2 - 6 (3900 BC - 3700 BC) :sleep:

Turn 7 (3650 BC) Start roading the mined BG tile.

IT: Athens: curragh->warrior.

Turn 8, 9 (3600, 3550 BC BC) Curragh goes north and east.

Turn 10 (3500 BC) Worker is now heading for plains to irrigate. Science to 10%.

IT: Athens grows and: warrior->warrior.

Turn 11 (3450 BC) It seems that we would have had two wheats on plains on the original spot. Warrior goes exploring. Luxury to 10%.

Turn 12 (3400 BC) Worker starts irrigation.

Turn 13 (3350 BC) Warrior climbs on a mountain to the east and reveals more plains, a goody hut and wheat on plains.

IT: Athens: warrior->settler.

Turn 14 (3300 BC) 2nd warrior goes west and expects to hit the end of our landmass.

Turn 15 (3250 BC) :sleep:

Turn 16 (3200 BC) Worker roads the irrigated plains.

Turn 17, 18 (3150, 3100 BC) Warrior SE reveals more ivory.

Turn 19 (3050 BC) Worker now goes to the wheat plains. SE warrior and curragh see desert.

Turn 20 (3000 BC) The W warrior clearly shows that this landmass isn't centered. We passed the eastern end of the world map.

IT: Tacitus tells us that the wealthiest tribes in the world are: America, Greece, Hittites, Ottomans, Egyptians, Russians, English, Japanese.

Turn 21 (2950 BC) The desert appears to be small. Athens is size 3 and requires 30% luxury.

IT: Athens: settler->warrior.

Turn 22 (2900 BC) I see a couple of good spots. One of them -close to Athens- has three wheats on plains and is on a river. It decide to go there. Luxury to 0%.

Turn 23 (2850 BC) Our warrior in the west meets an Egyptian settler pair. We could buy Pottery and 20 gold for Alphabet. I wait. Our curragh and warrior in the SE appear to have found the end of the continent. But also a sea passage.

Turn 24 (2800 BC) We indeed found the end of our continent SE, but also spot orange borders on the other side.

Turn 25 (2750 BC) We meet England on another landmass (as it seems). They have Pottery, Masonry and CB over us. Egypt now has that and Warrior Code, The Wheel.
Egypt gets Alphabet and 70 gold for Pottery and Warrior Code. England gives us CB for Warrior Code. More wasn't possible.

I decided to break my own rule and leave the settler unmoved. I did this to start the discussion about the next place to settle after my turns and not during them. Settling on the spot gives us a 4 turn settler factory (if I see it right). Should we go for it?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG112750BCempire.jpg

The known world:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG112750BCknownworld.jpg

I would go east with the curragh now, but any direction is OK. The red arrows point to known civs. The black arrow points to another safe route for our curragh!

I would say settle on the spot and screw the coast. We need early expansion and a 4 turn settler factory. It's pretty good luck to get one from 3 wheats!

Got it, but can't play until tomorrow (am going out drinking now).

Agree. This map smells like pelago and we are in a much better position compared to Cleo. Key imo to settle towards Egypt fast.

Forgive my if this is just newbieness, but I don't see a 4-turn settler factory there. You need a temple and a granary and then work the 3 wheats, right? But you have to irrigate all plains you work, so all fields you work give 1 shield.

1st turn size 5 - 5 food, 5 shields (-1 to curruption on this level)
2nd turn size 5 - 5 food, 7 shields (-1 see above +2 due to growth - ai will assign on forest)
3rd turn size 6 - 5 food, 6 shields (-1 see above)
4th turn size 6 - 5 food 9 shields (-1 see above +2 due to growth - ai will assign on forest, +1 in city center)

makes 27 shields. What am I missing?

Ahh yes, you are right grs. No BG = no settler factory. :(

Maybe settling on the spot isn't so great then, although it would be a good worker factory. Hmm, at least we have a day to discuss what to do, before I play.

I don't think you are missing something. I only quickly checked the food situation. It appears that corruption is a killer here. But it is still a very good spot I'd say.

I agree with Beam that we should block Egypt. But we don't know what we have SW of Athens. Maybe more landmass?

A quick dotmap for discussion purposes. Red dot and white dot are near fresh water.

EDIT: The hindsight award: Athens 2 tiles SE would have been better for expansion :(

I know this is very tight spacing, but just my thoughts about walling in cleo (after settling on the spot but without a temple).

I almost agree with Aggie's dotmap, I think the white dot should be 2 tiles SW in order to get food thru a harbor there and it allows a city either 2 tiles NE of the current white dot or N of the hut there.

And settle at the spot, at least we can take advantage of the river there.

In general city placement can be city-tile-tile-city as much as possible imo.

-'Use or lose' units: you have to use the units in the turn order. It is not allowed to cycle through them. This is to simulate the AI way of using units.
-We cannot attack a city unless there is a speed 1 unit adjacent to said city


Just to make sure I understand these correctly:
- After the interturn the units should be played in the exact order as they are activated by the game, right? Now what about fortified / sentried units?
- The speed of a Cav SoD is as fast as the Musket (for example) that's needed next to the target city?

Just to make sure I understand these correctly:
- After the interturn the units should be played in the exact order as they are activated by the game, right? Now what about fortified / sentried units?
- The speed of a Cav SoD is as fast as the Musket (for example) that's needed next to the target city?

-Fortified/sentried units should be activated at the start of the turn.
-That is right Beam.

You can run ahead of the musket to kill units; just not cities.

One problem I see with your dot map Aggie is that your towns don't take advantage of the cow without culture in the city. I would rather do something like grs dot map where we start next to the cow.

I would settle where we are for the second town. A five turn settler factory is pretty good too and we can also build workers every 2 turns with it.

[Edit: I think the black town should go 2 squares S to be near the cow and add a city where the hut currently is to grab the fish.

I would go with beams idea for the white town and I would push the purple/pink town west to the coast too make room for the moved black city

grs dot map to the North didn't look too crowded to me, but it is hard to know with the blackness whether the spots are the best we can do.

Well, I do like the black dot. We could have a city just south of the cow instead of pink dot. That could then go one SW.

Ya, I think that would work as well, Aggie. I agree your black dot could be a very good town.

Settling on the spot immediately does have the additional advantage of poping the hut while having no military - so not barbs will spring forth.

Hmm. There is always the option of abandoning Athens with a settler (and re-founding it) to make the settler city corruption free. Just a thought.

Hmm. There is always the option of abandoning Athens with a settler (and re-founding it) to make the settler city corruption free. Just a thought.
Question is: are we in a position to waste 30 shields and 2 pop? I don't think so.

Settling on the spot immediately does have the additional advantage of poping the hut while having no military - so not barbs will spring forth.

AFAIK when you settle next to a goody hut it never pops military. But my brain doesn't work 100% today :p

I have had one example where that wasn't true. I settled next to a hut and it did produce barbs. So it is possible, but seems pretty rare. Maybe there is some additional condition that determines it. Unfortunately, I do not remember what version it was, though it was probably unpatched C3C.

I think it still worth going for your plan where we do build next to it and then put a town S of the cow. Even if we get barbs, then all we do is lose some cash when they move into the new town. If we have a lot of money maybe we can spend it before settling it.

Question is: are we in a position to waste 30 shields and 2 pop? I don't think so.We may lose 30 shields and 1 pop (since re-founding gives you 1 pop back), but wouldn't we gain it in the long run?

I would like to think about this more, saving 1 turn on every settler could save us about 15 turns of production in the settler factory.

If you have a settler factory running for 100 turns (which I think is about average) you gain 5 more settlers, which may or may not be worth it, depending on how long you need the settler factory up and running.

My feeling is we won't get 100 turns on sid with our settler factory. Also if we pick up Athens and move it, it won't be the capitol anymore so we may need extra shields to handle corruption.

We probably do better to place the current settler in a place where it gets the shields and food for the settler factory, and then move Athens somewhere else. When we move Athens the new city becomes the capitol.

The real question is how long will it take to fill the land on sid level? We may end up with less towns if we are not careful.

Greebley, your reasoning is ok. But this is deity ;)

Doh! getting my games confused. Ignore me :)

Actually, moving the city is against the spirit of the game. I have never seen the AI move a city. :lol:

I am going to vote against moving it for this reason alone even though it is not specifically stated as forbidden.

On the other hand, I will [Edit: I forgot the very important "Not" - I will NOT object] object if the next player does end up moving it. This just what I would do if it was my decision.

Can we have some more thoughts on this? I think it is well worth it and it will pay us back long before we can't build any more settlers.

I want to see what everyone thinks before I play the turns.

I don't mind this step. It will obviously help us a lot in the long run and we seem to have enough land to settle.

Agree. This map smells like pelago and we are in a much better position compared to Cleo. Key imo to settle towards Egypt fast.

I agree with this; it seems we are on an isle and lose valuable time with the resettling.

So far Greebly and grs are against.
I am in favour.
Aggie doesn't mind.

:hmm: Looks like I won't be doing it then. I don't like the person playing the turns making executive decisions against what everyoen else wants to do, so I won't either.

Just to make you feel comfie anar. In any game that doesn't worry about AI exploits I would agree 100% with resettling this cap. In AG11 however we will have to live with it imo. Our 2nd city still can be a great output for settlers however despite not being a true settler factory.

I too agree with Beam.

****. I missed playing this tonight so it will be tomorrow. :(

Sometimes I wonder were my head is!!

This is from my own banned tactics list: "Palace Jump"; Jumping the palace by disbanding the capital. Rushing a palace or building it brick by brick is OK.

So we can't disband Athens ;)

heh. OK. :D

Sometimes I wonder were my head is!!

Hehe..look at this game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1816269&postcount=74) where we had a terrible start, I sold rax in capital, set up to disband it next turn with a settler, posted “do not mess up", then realized it was a banned tactic. :)

I switch min research to Republic. We won't revolt to Monarchy.
And to add up - we switched to Monarchy ;)

Sorry for the delay, the game looks almost too easy atm. I can only hope the AI comes to kick our ass and the restrictions start to hurt.

2750BC (preturn): Looks good. I settle Sparta on the spot and set it to a granary.

2710BC (turn 1): Athens builds warrior -> curragh.

2670BC (turn 2): zzz

2630BC (turn 3): zzz

AI: Egypt asks us to leave since I am walking through her lands, I agree.

2590BC (turn 4): Athens is size 2, so lux to 10%.

2550BC (turn 5): I pop a hut and get maps.

2510BC (turn 6): Athens builds curragh -> worker.

2470BC (turn 7): Pop another hut and get barbs. We meet America to the SE and they (like Egypt and England) have Masonry and The Wheel.

AI: One barb bounces off us and dies, another fortifies and the third disappears. It is 6 turns from our cities.

2430BC (turn 8): I take the fortified barb and kill it. Athens gets changed to a Hoplite. This is mainly because we are getting 4spt and can get it for just 2 turns more build than a warrior. This Hoplite can defend the pass against the Egyptians.

2390BC (turn 9): zzz

AI: ****. I tried to get past Egypt but they kicked us out. :sad:

2350BC (turn 10): zzz

AI: America asks us to leave their waters, I agree.

2310BC (turn 11): Build Hoplite in Athens -> settler. It appears the barb is not close so I send the Hoplite West to the pass.

I meet Japan just E from America. Japan have Masonry, Wheel, Iron Working and Mysticism. England also have IW and Mysticism in the last 2 turns.

2270BC (turn 12): Athens grows to size 3, lux goes to 30%.

AI: We get marching orders from Japan and Egypt.

2230BC (turn 13): Iron Working has made it around the civs now.

2190BC (turn 14): One of our warriors that was scouting the SE comes back as MP to Athens. Lux drops back to 20%.

2150BC (turn 15): Hmm. Sparta grows to size 3 and lux has to go back to 30%. I didn't unfortify the warrior in Athens at the start of the turn so next turn I suggest you wake it and send it to Sparta.

Summary:

* We desperately need more workers
* We need to road the tile to the S of Athens so we can move between our 2 cities in 1 turn.
* Whatever happens don't let Sparta grow before it finishes the Granary!
* 2 units are moving NW to close the peninsula to Egypt. Don't let those pesky Egyptian settlers through. groucho

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG11.2150BC.minimap.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG11.2150BC.map2.jpg

** THE SAVE ** AG11 2150BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG11-2150BC.zip)

Should we trade alphabet for at least Mysticism with Japan? The rest has that tech already and it shouldn't hurt us in the Philo run. Mysticism should net us other techs...

ROSTER:
Aggie
anarres
grs------up
Greebley-on deck(?)
Beam----probably really on deck
open spot

ffs! I didn't even see that deal. :rolleyes:

I can't believe I've made such an elemental blunder so early in any game, let alone an SG. [pissed]

ANAR! [rant] ;)

Investing 2 units to seal Egypt looks like a good move.

Can play Friday night in comfort. grs, Greebley go ahead!

Even anarres makes mistakes :p Important is: we can still make the deal.

Yes, we choose close that gap to Egypt.

Egypt's UU is going to be almost useless. With all of those mountains and no roads on them for awhile, their chariots will have an extreme disadvantage. Egypt may be a good target early on.

No matter what type of deal you could get, don't trade off your ivory until you know the SOZ is yours. So many people don't go for this, but they are still useful against knights/pikeman.

Not sure if you guys will like me playing with you. I have a weird pattern for this game. Ancient Era = I am a warmonger
Med Era = Builder
Industrious = Warmonger
Modern = Builder

@Foresight: The most important thing about a SG is that we play as a team. Discussion is extremely important. There's actually a good example in this one, where we had a debate about disbanding Athens. In the end anarres accepted that he shouldn't abandon it, despite the fact that he would have liked to do it himself. The fact that my ruleset bans palace jump is another matter.

I will put you on the roster after Beam. You then have the opportunity to join the debate and show us your CIV skills.

ROSTER:
Aggie
anarres
grs------up
Greebley-on deck(?)
Beam----probably really on deck
Foresight

Haha, yeppers Aggie. I am just saying, I am guessing eventually in a SG, ones one unique skills come out. I don't want you guys to think I am some AMAZING GOD LIKE CIV PLAYER. I really shouldn't have tried so hard at bragging so I could get into a SG.

Haha, for something being online and I don't any of you, I am actually nervous. Go figure...

I look forward to playing with you Foresight. :)

FWIW I think I tend to play a similar style of switching between military and builder, but SG's have the tendancy to make their own style. This one will mean our warfare is heavily changed and much more difficult, but we will see if any AI can get strong enough to challenge us.

Got it - will play on Thursday evening (GMT+1) - so some time for thoughts about next moves remains.

What I think now is:

* We should make the mysticism deal
* We are able to close the small landbrigde to Egypt with the 2 units already on the run
* We need workers AND settlers; after the granary and settler I will probably build 2 workers first and then another settler

10 turns from now on?

Sounds a good plan to me Grs.

10 turns now seems reasonable. It gives us the nice 1750, 1500, 1250, 1000 year ends. I like hitting the QSC year of 1000 BC to compare how we are doing.

10 turns from now on grs :)

Sounds good to me grs. Have fun.

Maybe trivial and just to make sure: we should build warriors as well as MP and prob. another Curragh to make contact with the AI. Some of this is for the longer run and not for the upcoming 10 turns. ;)

PreTurn: trade Japan alphabet for mysticism, masonry and 4 gold; mysticism is not even worth the wheel on the market; we give mysticism and 77 gold to Abe for the wheel and get 95 gold from Cleo for mysticism - more was not to get. We now can spot a horse on a hill exactly south of the small landbridge to Cleo.
IBT: Cleo founds Pi-Ramses right on a grassland cow; barb runs around aimlessly
2110BC: spear kills barb (-1)
IBT: Athens settler-hoplite (need protection for new town)
2070BC: we spot a brown border (Russia), but cant make contact; Japan has a monopoly on horseback, but we have nothing to offer
IBT: nothing
2030BC: we contact Russia, Cathy misses Alphabet, but has nothing to offer, we try to cross Cleos lands to explore whats beneath her
IBT: nothing
1990BC: Thermopylae founded next to cow and elephant, starts warrior
IBT: Sparta granary-worker
1950BC: block is in place, Cathy now has Alphabet - I really hoped for a tech to trade here :(
IBT: Cleo asks us to leave or declare, we declare...eh we leave :), but we land in a gap in her lands and have a chance to try crossing again; Japan completes The Oracle, the English start The Pyramids since they completed The Colossus
1910BC: Sparta need 50% lux, but will get a worker next turn
IBT: Cleo wants to talk...again about the warrior, but no automove needed; Sparta worker-settler, Americans and Russians start The Pyramids
1870BC: lux down to 40%
IBT: Athens hoplite-granary (I know I had different plan, but I thought Athens had a granary already), Japan start ToA
1830BC: nothing
IBT: Cathy tells us our ship's near her town, oh yes, you are true!; Thermopylae warrior-worker
1790BC: nothing
IBT: we connect the elephant and with it Thermopylae
1750BC: lux down to 10%, sci stayed 10% all the time - writing in 1; we spot a far away goody hut

No one has writing yet, we could make some good deals or keep it for us to make sure we get philosophy first...?!

Our small empire:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ag11-1750.jpg

ROSTER:
Aggie
anarres
grs
Greebley---skipped
Beam------up
Foresight---on deck

To decide on writing we need a diplo summary. I personally think we shouldn't sell it immediately, but I would be happy to sell it once we are on the way to Phil.

Anyone got an idea of how long Phil will take us @ max?

On diety, you actually have a chance at getting the great library. Maybe, we shouldn't sell off Writing until we are clear to phil and lit.

I'm not sure we can get enough shields in time. Are we not a long time after the usual build up for the GL?

Also the lands they seem fairly crappy, it seems we don't have any decent shield producing cities (only 1 BG and the 3 wheats that are needed by the worker/settler factory).

From what I've seen, the computer doesn't research literature until it gets almost all of the Ancient Era techs. I've been in games where I was heading into Medieval and most of the comps still didn't have it yet.

You are definately right about the shield production. I didn't look over the screenshot very well before posting.

After learning writing we should first check how much it is worth. It may not be worth much on the market if the AIs are already researching it. That price should give us a clue.
From what I've seen, the computer doesn't research literature until it gets almost all of the Ancient Era techs. I've been in games where I was heading into Medieval and most of the comps still didn't have it yet.

That may be the case in some games, but it is nothing you can bet on.

I dont think we have any decent chance to build the great library and even if, I am not sure it is worth it. If the writing and philosophy gambit works, we have techs to trade for the missing techs rather the using some 100 shields to get them

Priority should be to settle our secured lands, while they are secure, i.e. before the AIs get map making and build galleys.

Haha, my play style is so much different than all of yours. When I play on Diety - Sid, I use my capital for settler pumping (has granary), second city for 2-3 workers, then every single city pumps out settlers without building any granaries.

It gives me a great # of cities, but I end up giving away a lot of cash to the computers early on because they demand tribute. We shall see, though. When my turn comes, if there is still land to settle in, there won't be any wonder building. The general rule for Diety - Sid is to never attempt a wonder (ancient - med), unless you are 110% sure you can get it.

For the settlers, I think we should get our borders to reach Egypt's asap. This will force them to settle a lot further away from their capital making an easier attack later on. But yea, I will have to wait until I get around to my turn to see what will really be best. All I am doing is looking at the two screenies provided and giving opinions

PS: I've been reading a lot of SG's at this forum and I am starting to wonder how I handle Diety and sometimes Sid by myself. It isn't that I don't know what to do, it is I never put much thought into a single turn. I am learning a lot, from where I thought I knew it all hehe.

Foresight, you can download the saves that people post and open them to see the state of affairs - just remember not to play them at all.

Regarding Wonder builds: IMO we should decide as a group whether or not to build wonders, and then all play to "the plan". As far as I can see we all think we shouldn't build wonders now anyway, but this is the kind of issue that we need to decide together. I know some others (not people here, but SG players in general) like to just play the turns and hand over, but to me that is one hell of an innefficient way of playing.

Let's just expand for now and keep up in the tech race. I don't see the need of TGL.

Earlier this week I prob was to optimistic on my availability to play Friday night, since I am still at work and will be home late :( . So if you are in a hurry feel free to move on, otherwise I can play tomorrow during the day (Euro timezone). Hope you're not in a hurry ;).

No worries mate (using this expression to practise for my next holiday :) )

Pre-flight check:
:) . Athens needs some help with the Gran., so the forest E of it will be chopped soon.

IT:
Cleo demands us to leave. Only need to pass Heliopolis before entering Russia.

1725BC:
Writing is in the pocket. Philo is 22t at 1.8.1 and -1gpt. We currently have 202 gold so no issue.

:( Lizzy just discovered Writing as well. Which makes a strong case for trading it around.

Diplo situation:
Cleo: IW, willing to trade for Wr.
Abe: IW, willing to trade for Wr. + 8 Gold.
Lizzy: IW, Math, HBR.
Tokugawa: IW, HBR, Poly. Doesn't want to trade Poly, not even for Wr. + 202 gold + 10gpt. Is generous enough however to offer IW, HBR + 6 gold for Writing!
Cathy: :lol:

I haven't made any trades yet cause I like to have the group discussion first. My proposal:
- Sell Writing around starting with the Japs and get the max out of it.
- Abandon the Philo run and go for Lit and hopefully get a monopoly. Lit is 37t at the 1.8.1 setting.

Game is on hold until about noon EST, 17:00 UTC.

EDIT: some more for discussion is our general settling direction. With 2 settlers the bottleneck to Egypt can be secured plus access to the Horse. A 3rd settler can give access to the Wine SE of Thermopylae. How about that?

You probably end up trading with Japan alone. I think it's worth it. After that, it's probably best to go for Literature.

I agree about your settling options. Should tribes settle SE of us, then we can see that as nice targets. However I think that we should be able to settle the complete peninsula.

I agree with selling writing around. I also agree with the proposed settlements, but I am not sure we should give up on philosophy.

Proposal for the western dotmap.

The three orange ones could be mixed with expansion on the Eastern side.

3 could go one NE and then another city can be placed 2 tiles SW of wines (whales in expaned borders. 3 would then share the cattle with Thermopylae.

I think we should still go for Philosophy! You can still win even when you are not first to start researching it, so why give up now??

It's true that we may have contact with the world soon. I don't mind Philo at all. But I don't expect anything from it (free tech).

I think we should still go for Philosophy! You can still win even when you are not first to start researching it, so why give up now??

Imo the chances of getting Phil. first are pretty dim now Lizzy has it as well. Whereas the chance of getting Lit first if we start it now are pretty high. In that case we will have a very good tech to trade around, much better then Phil.

Well, it's just a gamble. If we get Philo first we can trade it plus the free tech we get from it. If we dont get it first Literature would be better, no doubt. I would take the gamble.

I'd like to proceed in a hour or so and apparently the only point we have to decide on is Philo or Lit.
Philo.: anar, grs, Foresight
Lit.: Beam
Neutral / no opinion voiced: Aggie (if I read well), Foresight and Greebley.

If it stays like this I'll go for Phil at 1.8.1 and sell Writing if we get value in return (Abe's 8 gold definitely isn't value ;) ).

Hmm, going for Phil early on means we have to keep science at a high %. The amount of cash you could make trying to research it first could buy us two techs. However, we have agreed going for wonders early on isn't a priority and researching literature simply for trade is bad. Last thing we need is to sell literature to a leading rival and have them jump ahead in the tech tree.

My vote: Philosophy.

The proposed city placement looks good to me.

The only problem I have is we should start spreading out our cities a little more. I am not suggesting we have it so we get a full 21-square production from each city, but start spreading out each city so it has the potential to reach size 13.

I really hope we can get the #2 city. That is going to be a huge advantage for naval warfare.

We are on an archepelago map, so building cities close to each other seems mandatory to me.

Imo it is key to build so dense on land like this. Also most cities are coastal and therefore can get a good grab of food and income if harbors are build.

I'm not going to take part in the voting contest. We all made reasonable remarks regarding Lit vs Philo. I think that Philo is a gamble while Lit is almost sure. But if Philo works we can go for Lit after that and win twice. But the main thing is that I don't think that it is ultra important on this type of map, where there always will be trading options.

I like the somewhat denser build style as suggested by Beam, with my remark included that is :)

Hmm...

Do you guys think we can get our penninsula completely covered with cities going with a tight build placement?

1725 BC (continued):
Do the deal with Japan. Abe pays 77 gold (full treasury) for HBR. Only Cathy has a sad 2 gold of treasury, everyone else must skip steak for dinner.

IT:
Nada

1700 BC:
Galley finds Moscow on the W-most tip of our little continent. Warrior moves next to Heliopolis. Antarctic Curragh just sees wilderness. 2 workers move to clear forest E of Athens.

IT:
Cleo asks us to leave, we will Cleo! We see an Eqyptian archer being attacked by..... Russian forces! A Russian Archer and Spear move next to Heliopolis. Do I love AI wars. ;)

Sparta completes settler > settler.

1675 BC:
Settler moving to dot#1. Russian Curragh continues to circumvent our turf, although it has spotted coast W of Russia. More important to know if we really are living on an island. Antarctic Curragh: more wilderness. Slider to 1.9.0.

No deals possbile. All at 0 except for Cathy who is saving money.

IT:
Ruskies move away from Heliopolis. Do we really have to simulate this type of AI behaviour in our play? ;)
The'pylae Worker > Hoplite.

1650 BC:
Pretty similar, Japan and Lizzy have some cash as well now.

IT:
Nada

1625 BC:
Forest near Athens cleared, Gran due in 6t. Moving around Novgorod will take to many turns so the warrior will start moving home next turn.

IT:
Cleo and Cathy are having another serious argument and both lose units . :)

1600 BC:
The away Curragh spots a border, could be the Japanese.

IT:
Cathy founds Rostov on the tundra :p

1575 BC:
Japanese border, ****** colourblindness.
Slider to 0.8.2. Still no trades and Abe, Cleo and Cathy don't have tech as a prio.

IT:
Some more *****ing between Cleo and Cathy.

1550 BC:
Corinth founded on Dot#1 > worker in 10t.

IT:
Cleo is not even demanding us to leave her terr. :)
Sparta completes the settler for Dot#2.

1525 BC:
Cathy has a whopping 10 gold now.
Silder to 0.9.1

IT:
Athens completes Gran and can compete a settler in 6. Growth however will be in 7, so it is set to build a warrior.

1500 BC:
Sparta is MM'ed to the 2 food required to fill the foodbox. Next player should MM it again!

Abe managed to get Wr., Math and Poly.

Aggie, cu in sportstalk ;)

Pic of the empire:

Got it. Will play in an hour or two.

Hmm...

Do you guys think we can get our penninsula completely covered with cities going with a tight build placement?

I wouldn't mind the AI cleaning up the jungle on the S-tip. :)

I'd still prefer a tight build even if we don't get the whole peninsula. It means when we take it by force we will have more cities than a loose build.

Our cities won't grow over size 12 with a little luck ;)

Hehe. ^^^ Double Hehe (sentence is too short).

BAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I typed up all of this and guess what happened? My IE got an error and shut it down.

Here I go again.


Turn 1
Egypt is bulding TOA
Athens culture expands
Egypt expands empires with Byblos a few spaces north of the horses
Egypt booted us out

Turn 2
Americans building TOA
Egypt building Pyramids
Athens > Warrior > Settler

Turn 3
TRADING: Egypt gives Poly for Writing
TRADING: England gives Math/14 gold for Poly

Turn 4
Hittite Finishes Pyramids
American building TOA
England building TOA
Egypt building TOA

QUESTION: I had a warrior on neutral territory on a road linking two egypt cities. Are you allowed to pillage with an offensive unit if it is in neutral territory? I didn't by the way.

Turn 5
Therm > Hop > Granary
We are either even or ahead in techs. Three are behind us.

Turn 6
A few worker and curragh moves.

Turn 7
Delphi founded North (1) of horse. > Hoplite

Turn 8
Sparta > settler > settler (remember to play with the food/shields)

Turn 9
Corinth > worker > granary
Athens > settler > settler

Turn 10
England demands 21 gold. I give.
America demands 29 gold. I give.
Both are annoyed so they would most likely declare a war.

Summary: Philosophy is at 2, but can be upgraded to 1 turn if you put science to 100% and Lux to 0%.

England is ahead of us in techs with Map Making/Construction
America is even with us
The rest are behind
Everyone is short on gold
England won't trade map making or construction

Here is the save.

I would have placed Delphi 1 tile SE to avoid such heavy culture pressure, but no matter.

Not sure who is next but I would *definitely* get Phil in 1 rather than 2!

I looked at that dot map someone in this thread made and just went by that. Just means we will have to get a temple in it asap.

EDIT: Uh oh, I think I did a bad thing. Aren't I suppose to wait until AGGIE says it is my turn. On his list I was after BEAM, but I guess it would have been polite to wait until he said it was me up.

@Foresight: nothing wrong with taking the turns. You were correct about the roster :)

ROSTER:
Aggie------up
anarres----on deck
grs
Greebley---skipped
Beam
Foresight

QUESTION: I had a warrior on neutral territory on a road linking two egypt cities. Are you allowed to pillage with an offensive unit if it is in neutral territory? I didn't by the way.

...........

Turn 10
England demands 21 gold. I give.
America demands 29 gold. I give.
Both are annoyed so they would most likely declare a war.

You could have pillaged the route. And I wouldn't give England or America the money when they can't reach us easily. War hapiness is a good side-effect of them declaring war.

Which free tech do we want? Code of Laws, Literature? And what should be our next tech? Republic? Literature?

War hapiness is a good side-effect of them declaring war.
Couldn't you say that in mic-2 after they tore me apart ;)

Which free tech do we want? Code of Laws, Literature? And what should be our next tech? Republic? Literature?
I - normally - go by the simple rule: take the most expensive tech available. We should try to reach The Repulblic soon, because anarchy will be much shorter as long as we are that small. It is also a nice tech to trade a) for cash or other techs and b) directly to your opponent before a war (though with religious egypt, this tactic wont work).

I will choose Literature and then go all out CoL...

EDIT: We got a SGL with Literature [party] I can choose between Zeus, ToA and The Great Library. I will choose the Great Library. Zeus will be ours anyway (ivory monopoly).

Hmm. This game seems to be won. :crazyeye:

IHT: :lol: Russia is a joke. Egypt is strongr, but nothing to be afraid of. I set science to 100% to get Philo in one. Athens MM-ed to get more production, Sparta for more growth. Thermo switched to barracks and the other two cities to workers. I think that we need more of them. Thermo can be a military city.

IT: We get Philo at first and I choose Literature as our free tech. We get a SGL [party]. I will keep it to rush the Great Library.

Turn 1 (1250 BC) I set science to 10% to CoL. Pharsalos founded, starts with warrior. There will be no trade, because of our sure TGL.

Turn 2 (1225 BC) :sleep:

Turn 3 (1200 BC) Knossos founded on the spot that I suggested regarding Beam's dotmpa.

IT: England finishes ToA

Turn 4 (1175 BC) :sleep:

IT: Egypt builds us the Hanging Gardens. Athens Settler->TGL.

Turn 5 (1150 BC) TGL rushed with SGL.

IT: Athens: TGL->settler, Pharsalos: warrior->barracks.

Turn 6 (1125 BC) :sleep:

IT: Sparta: settler->settler. Delphi: worker->library.

Turn 7 (1100 BC) Argos founded, starts with warrior.

IT: We get Map Making from TGL. Thermopylae: barracks-> Statue of Zeus.

Turn 8 (1075 BC) I get an embassy in England for 52 gold. They have the lighthouse in 10. An embassy in America for 57 shows us that they will not get the Lighthouse (60 turns). The embassy in Egypt costs us 35 gold. Koyto's embassies is 63 gold. I won't pay for an embassy in poor Russia. As expected we are the only civ to know more than three others.

IT: Corinth: worker->barracks.

Turn 9 (1050 BC) :sleep:

Turn 10 (1025 BC) Mycenae founded, popping a hut (25 gold). Starting with a warrior.

England has construction, Japan has Monarchy. The rest is backward. We don't have to trade, because the AI is broke and we have TGL.

Our two curraghs have found new land, so they might finally meet the two remaining civs.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/AG11-1025BCempire.jpg

ROSTER:
Aggie
anarres----up
grs--------on deck
Greebley---skipped
Beam
Foresight

Hmm. This game seems to be won. :crazyeye:

It ain't over 'til it's over. For the time being:

Sit back,

relax

and enjoy the ride! [dance]

EDIT: Minor detail. There is only one Iron on our island and it is way into Egypt. Not a real issue for defense because of the Hoplites, it is for offensive units however.

SoZ could solve that but only produces one AC every 5 turns and imo 10 are the bare minimum to even start thinking about an attack on Egypt, which means 50 turns after SoZ is build. Which again is 98 turns from now at current speed. By that time we will be somewhere in the middle of the MA and close to overseas trading. Egypt most likely will have Pikes as defense eating AC's for breakfast by that time. AC's don't have an upgrade path btw.

To summarize I don't think SoZ will be of much value other than a prebuild for a wonder of more value. Unless I missed something of course.

I have been following along as best I can given my full schedule. Looks like we are doing well.

On the use of Zeus. My evaluation is that the expenditure of shields would have some limited use, though it is likely some other wonder going to be better.

I think the biggest use of the ACav would be to have fast units on defense in the back areas. While it is true our Hopolite are adequate, it doesn't stop pillaging units, and attacking is better for MDI and Longbow. Even when we have knights and Cav (assuming we get them), they free up the need to a few of the knights and Cav in researve.

How close is the iron to the border? We could go on the offensive if it was close enough with less than the stated ACav by using them to snag the iron so we could continue with knights.

If we plan to be peaceful until Cav, the use of SoZ is a good bit less.

How close is the iron to the border?

As deep as it can be. The SW-most tip of Egypt. :(

As deep as it can be. The SW-most tip of Egypt. :(

This makes AC's very interesting.

So why not use horses? I always try to attack before Pikes, I see no reason not to attack here.

Got it.

p.s. Why the 10% science? Why not turn it off since we will get the tech for free?

anarres, true about to 10% science. I must have had my mind at other things than civ alone.

1025BC (preturn): I swap a couple of tiles so Pharsalos can grow this turn (Thermopylae can still grow in 3 as before). I also take our lone scientist off since TGL will provide us with techs. Maybe Republic is worth putting money in to, but not CoL - we should have it in 42 turns free.

1000BC: I wake the warrior in Conrith and send to Delphi since there is a serious flip risk there.

AI: Hittites declare war on the English

975BC: Athens builds settler -> galley

AI: Hittites complete Mausoleum

950BC: Knossos builds warrior -> worker

I wake the warrior blocking Delphi and move him in to Delphi. If they try to come through we can wake him and block, but he is better reducing the flip chance.

925BC: Meh. I pop a hut and get barbs.

AI: One barb attacks and redlines our warrior, the other moves away.

900BC: Sperta builds settler -> settler.

I wake the warrior from Delphi and block the pass again.

Herakleia is founded in the Ivory plains. Set to warrior.

875BC: Argos builds warrior -> barracks.

825BC: zzz

AI: Hittites build Great Wall. English complete The Great Lighthouse.

800BC: Athens builds galley -> galley.

AI: Japan demands Maths, I refuse and they declare war.

775BC: Mycenae builds warrior -> barracks

Herakleia builds warrior -> warrior

Ephesus is founded, set to warrior.

Sell Lit to England for 111 gold and 5 gpt. How they can manage this under despotism is beyond me.


Summary:

* We need workers! After the next settler in Sparta I suggest we churn 3 or 4 workers as more than one of our new cities needs connecting and irrigating. All these plains means more workers are needed to get 2 food per tile.

* The Galley NE from Athens was intended for the setter at Sparta to head to the NE islands. I can understand if people decide to settle our peninsula first, but in my experience it makes sense to get at least 1 city on the island so we can easily take it if it is settled by the AI.

* Athens should only be used for settlers when it gets to size 5. Using it for settlers at size 3 is a big waste of shields and commerce.

* We need horses! I have been building barracks where possible and these cities must go to horse production so we can get our army off the ground. Some settler from cities when they are size 5 is fine IMO, but please no settlers from very small cities.

* Japan can reach us, but not for another 10 or 15 turns, by which time we can make peace if we wish.

* No pic since there is not much to show at all.

Wow anarres. That was quick!

ROSTER:
Aggie
anarres
grs--------up
Greebley---on deck
Beam
Foresight

Got it, will probably play tonite (as my team is already home for some days...).

On settling the isles I agree and propose settling on red spot of the map below, then cross the gap following the black arrow. Why didn't we do that sooner? It will most probably reveal another civ. We may want to settle on the blue spot later on.

I wouldn't settle on the tobacco, but SW of it. When I sent out the curragh early in the game I found it more important to uncover our island than to make the jump. We have met England and other civs this way. Doesn't mean that we shouldn't sail to that island though :)

Agree with Aggie, also go 1 tile NW on the other island. it creates a shortcut for ships. Although this means the cities on these islands are 1 tile apart this is no big deal since on all other sides there is no overlap.

@grs, what graphics mod do you use for the cultural borders. Plain ugly imo but very useful for colourblind ppl like me.

I wouldn't settle on the tobacco, but SW of it.
Settling on the tobacco gives us:
+1 gold in city center (always worked)
4 coastal, 2 bg and 2 grassland in the first ring
Settling sw of it gives us:
a grassland with tobacco (+1 gold, but wont be worked before pop 3)
5 coastal, 2 bg and 1 grassland in the first ring
Settling sw has 2 disadvantages imho; where am I wrong here?

Agree with Aggie, also go 1 tile NW on the other island.
Not that I would build one of the next 2 or 3 settlements there, but regarding blue: why should we not take advantage of the fish?

@grs, what graphics mod do you use for the cultural borders. Plain ugly imo but very useful for colourblind ppl like me.
I had to search a bit, but it is these.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37965

Seems like you're right grs. It's either your spot or E, with whales in expanded borders. But we must be aware that this city won't be a powerhouse for a very long time. Your spot has more immediate benefits.

Aggie, the turns only took an hour because there was nothing to think about at all. MM'ing the cities must have taken 90% of that time.

Important note: Delphi is on 0 food and 2 spt. In about 3 turns it will have 20 shields and can rush the Library.

Important note: Delphi is on 0 food and 2 spt. In about 3 turns it will have 20 shields and can rush the Library.
Thought about pop rushing it, too. What about waiting for the 2 nearby workers to complete (5 turns) and then chopping the grassland forest next to it? We need to do that anyways and without a grassland it will take Delphi 20 turns to grow to size 2 again - yielding 1 shield and 1 food in that time. Better, worse?

Delphi has a grassland it can use now (S-SE).

TBH I would definitely rush - 2 workers could chop the forrest now, but that is 9 worker-turns I think are better spent elsewhere like irrigating 2 plains tiles on more productive cities. As long as the forrest is chopped 10 turns after the library is rushed it won't have any trouble growing.

Four things I think we need to make sure we do ASAP:

1) Make sure the remaining unclaimed ivory's are settled upon.
2) Get at least one city in the desert area (guarenteed to have saltpeter there).
3) We need a lot more workers. In time of war, some of our roads will most likely be pillaged and since we don't have more than one way to reach each one, they will become rioting factories.
4) Add some military strength. If Cleo has a pms attack, we are in for a tough war.

EDIT: I notice a lot of you are from Europe. Considering I am from BC Canada, the time delay between me posting is really off. There always seems to be a new page of information when I wake up, hehe.

PreTurn: the english are on our isle; <space>
IBT: sparta settler-barracks; Pharsalos: barracks-horseman
750bc: losing one turn because i have to move the settler fist and wont get him on the galley
INT: nothing
730bc: nothing
IBT: America and Hittites sign alliance vs. England; America declares; Knossos worker-barracks; England founds 2 other cities on our isle
710bc: switch Sparta to settler; whip library in Delphi
IBT: Athens galley-; Corinth barracks-horseman Delphi library-worker
690bc: Thessalonica founded on tobacco isle - starts worker
IBT: Herakleia warrior-library
670bc: some mm to get settler out of Athens in time
IBT: nothing
650bc: nothing
IBT: America and Japan sign an alliance against us and declare, we get monarchy, but stay in despotism; Sparta settler-barracks
630bc: map check: Abe is not that far away from us and has at least 3 harbors, but he is also in war with the Queen and she is right in between us; where to settle? I want 3 things: the cow, the lake and the sugar; the places I want would mean we would have one if not both next cities overlapping Liverpool, though England has the most culture in the game
No, I wont do that in a SG, I will do it passively, at least what lies in my turns, no reason to build flip-risky cities
IBT: we get code of laws
610bc: Japan has Currence, England Construction - we wil be in the middle ages soon - no one has rebublic, we could do it in 31 at -1 (about 1000 gold) - no way; if you waited for me spotting someone on the isle I wanted to...it seems to be completely empty!, but we meet a Hittites ship in British waters, Mursilis has currency and construction, misses Literature and has more than 400 gold, but would give only 175, which I take
IBT:we get currency, construction and :drumroll: engineering; Athens settler-galley; Pharsalos horse-horse
590bc: Rhodes founded sw of the cow starts warrior
IBT: Liz sees we have a ship in her seas (oh my, what a pun), we comply to her wishes (next round); Ephesus warrior-worker
570: nothing

The isle east of us is awesome and seems empty. My idea for next settlement below.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ag11-570.jpg

Looks like we found our first target. We should take out these English cities as soon as our military is strong enough.

ROSTER:
Aggie
anarres
grs
Greebley---up
Beam------on deck
Foresight

Looks like we also found out where we can have a supply of Rubber and Saltpeter.

No post for 24 hrs now and Greebley seems to be away :mischief:

I'll take it tonight then.

Ya, I was traveling. I am home. This is my "I got it". I will try to get it tomorrow night, but there is a chance I may need a full 48 from now (this game is first in line however).

[Edit: Make that an I got it after Beam plays. I just read the message above].

ROSTER:
Aggie
anarres
grs
Greebley---on deck
Beam------up
Foresight

I was realizing this is my first time with this variant. Anything I need to watch out for, or is the play pretty straightforward?

We haven't been at war yet, but the expansion phase is almost over (except for the island grs is talking about). I expect that we will take the English cities in the south first. Only then will we have to think about the rules more. And we have the Great Library, so no need to buy techs.

Personally I think we need to take Egypt before Englands cities. After all, they have the only nearby Iron.

Tend to agree with anar as long as Lizzy isn't to aggressive. Oh, and my remark about the AI clearing the jungle wasn't a joke. ;)

We should definately get a foot on the western isle - it seems empty and has nice lands (as far as you can judge from the coastline).
I do also tend to Egypt as first target, let Liz settle the southerns islands - she is doing nice research from us and she is the one that blocks Japan and America for us. We might get under a dogpile (though a naval one) if we go to war with her!

To summarize:
Expansion is still high on the agenda, I propose to try to get as much as possible of the surrounding islands.

Yes, but please make all the cities build barracks then horses if they are not building settlers or workers. :)

btw, if we ever play this variant again I want the restriction that we can't change a build queue once it is set (I can't believe I forgot to suggest this!).

We are playing a standard game with AI warfare emulation. But a next game we may just as well go a step further, like anarres suggests.

Haha, I am glad Anarres suggested rule isn't in. As you could probably tell Aggie, after I finished my game, I left probably 3 cities with a production that shouldn't be produced. I didn't really think about what to put them on because none of the builds would finish before my turns were up.

EDIT: We better get our military going. We are probably the weakest civilization except Russia who should go back to Chieftan.

@Foresight: just see this (the production swaps) as learning points or even only different point of views. anarres also changed a few things after my turns.

Pre-IT
No builds are due next turn and MM'ing looks fine.

Lizzy is prepared to pay 21gpt and change for Curr. and still needs CoL for the MA. Japan wants to talk again but wants way to much. I get the 21 gpt from Lizzy (and the change ;) ). Running +58 at 1095.

Build an embassy with the Hittites whose cap is size 12, 2 luxes, H + I and running 3.7.1 in Mon. Pretty sure they are on the same land as Lizzy and Abe looking at the location of the cap.

IT:
Hittites are building SunTzu.

550 BC
Chats took time tonoght, continued tomorrow.

IT:
Abe and Lizzy sign peace.

530BC:
Lizzy is in the MA.

IT:
Nada.

510BC:
Corinth and Argos Horsie > Horsie.

Thermopylae is size 6 now, MM it to max. shields and 0 food. SoZ in 15t.

IT:
Nada.

490BC:
Various builds, most noticable Galley > Rax in Athens, the Galley will pick up a settler for the other small island NE. Also Worker > Temple in Delphi. Forest chopping and rushing for the Temple. We could switch to Rax if needed.

Abe is willing to talk peace for about 40 of our gold. Good to have a back-up plan Abe! Same for Japanese, about 80 gold in this case.

IT:
Now what was the rule if the AI offers peace? Abe does but wants Monarchy.

470BC:
Pharsalos builds the settler for the other small island > Horsies.

From the first post:

-ALWAYS accept peace if the AI offers it, as the AI will do for you
I have to correct my refusal to Abe app., I suppose negotiation is allowed so he gets peace plus 40 gold.

One of our scouting Galleys meets a Japanese one.

One of the Curraghs arrives at "Warwick (Hittite)" :lol:

IT:
Japanese navy attacks.... and sinks! We only take 1 HP.

450BC:
One of our scouting Galleys sees new land, sails to it and sees borders!

Eretria build as indicated on the last dotmap. That leaves just one settling option on our island but we'll go for other islands as well.

IT:
:sleep:

430BC:
We make contact with the Otto's who lack Wri, Con. and Curr. No deals, embassy reveales Istanbul size 8, Mon., 2.8.0, 1 lux, H.

London (Hittite). :lol: :lol: Great job Lizzy!

Going to friends to watch Holland - Portugal now, more later.

Portual won 2-1.

Portual won 2-1.

If you'd posted that 2 hours earlier your nick would have made sense ;).

Best team won, I hope all oldies leave the Dutch squad now honourably and we can start with a fresh new young team for the WC in 2006.

IT:
Lizzy wants an MA vs. Hittites! Lizzy go and clean up your own dirt, come back later. We get 4 gold for just a RoP.

Engalnd and Hittites have signed a peace treaty!

410BC:
York went Hittite as our scouting curragh tells us. Settler lands on the tile W of the fish.

Diplo shows that the Hittites now have Mono as well! No other Civ has it and this means a tech turn around time of 8 turns for them. These guys have the best stats atm and our fiercest opponent. The AI on our continent are a joke, specially now England has been hit so hard.

We still have a monopoly on Engineering and although we could get good gpt from the Hittites I decided not to take it cause we do not need the gpt atm and a fast techrace isn't favoring the investment in SoZ. Which is due in 10 :).

Change Herakleia Lib > Rax as it does 3 shields effectively and the culture should be in Eretria.

IT:
Hittite troop movements as seen by the Curragh take most IT time.

390BC:
Sparta goes size 6 and produces a Horsie > Settler.

Troy founded > Worker.

Yanks have founded Houston on that good lookin' island E.

IT:
Japan is building Sun Tzu, means Feud next turn.

370BC:
Japan is in for a straight peace deal now.

IT:
Feudalism indeed. Corinth Horsie > Horsie.

350BC:
Abe is MA now. Checking deals, I leave the option of trading a tech for Cathies purse of 78 gold to the next player. i just don't think we need the money. SoZ due in 7.

Recommendations besides the obvious MM'ing:
- See what land we can get on the island where Abe founded Houston
- Build a solid stack of horsies, AC.
- Start with a fresh young Dutch squad
- Hire a coach matching that profile.

We shall see how well I picked my name. I predicted the Greeks at the start of the tourney would go to the end, so we shall see. As for the game, my warmonger-self is starting to become uncomfortable and Egypt looks like a good target in the next 20-30 turns. England looks good as well considering Hittites are bashing them around and the English couldn't do much to stop us.

Ok, I got the game. I think I will be able to at least start this tonight.

ppl have time to comment before I start as I will play AG10 first

Everything seems ok. Good set of turns Beam.

I wouldn't worry about warfare Foresight - we are building up and we can attack as soon as we have enough units to sustain a war. Maybe if England is very weak we can just take her cities on our island before the Egyptians.

Ok, I think I want a discussion before I play. We are going entirely military at the moment and completely ignoring any and all infrastructure. I need a decision on whether to continue this or do what I would normally do which is switch everything to Markets, Aquaducts, temples, etc.

If we continue to build the large number of horsemen we are building now then we are forced to go to war (and win) or will be badly crippled by the lack of Infra. If we aren't planning to go to war quite soon, then I am going to shut off military entirely and get our infrastructure up and going.

Basically, we need to decide our course now so we don't have one player building a ton of units that then sit around spending our gpt on nothing much and become antiquated and useless. That combined with less markets could really slow us down.

So the choices are:
A) Continue to build military in preparation for an early war. Try to grab enough land that we compensate for the lack of Markets and aquaducts in many cities.

B) Build our infrastructure (Markets, Aquaducts, possibly temples at a minimum before we start any kind of push for Military.

C) Anyone have another idea? Something in between? If so we need to decide what our goals are.

I will play tomorrow. I could make a decision, but I prefer it to be a team one.

---A---

We are going to be in incredible trouble if we keep lacking iron for any longer. Egypt has the only iron on our continent and when middle-ages comes around, med infrantry and pikeman will destroy us.

My vote is B.

We have no need of iron to defend. We are the greeks and already have pike substitutes. Build some catapults and trebuchets and we can hold off anyone. It is unlikely we will even be attacked before Gunpowder if we keep our heads low and give in to all demands. It is also possible to get iron via trade at some point.

We are currently building horses that are very difficult to upgrade in conquests at 120 gold a pop. Their lifespan is very limited and may already be over. If we built a large number and hit egypt then we can probably do damage, but it is really going to cost us.

I would rather hunker down until Cavalry and make our stike then when we have a strong built up nation.

Remember that we have to send slow troops along. These can be warriors, but if we send hoplites then we will be in a despot GA.

My vote is B. Let's first build markets and aquaducts in cities, military after that and try to take out the three English cities with a stack of about 10 horses/AC's.

As long as we get to go to war soon with someone, I don't care. Hehe, I am not a builder type. :(

My vote is A, not so much because of the Iron but because both Egypt and Russia are pretty weak at the moment and specially the Eqyptian terrain is a nice addition to the empire.

On the slow unit: we can send Archers in as slow unit and their defensive bombardment is helpful when being attacked.

EDIT: we should have a small stack of AC when we go for Egypt imo, which will be there in about 30 - 35 turns. No prob. doing some infrastructure builds before that.

ROSTER:
Aggie
anarres
grs
Greebley---up
Beam
Foresight--on deck

Hmm... We are tied at 2 for A and 2 for B. Anarres or grs, if you have time to vote the fate of the game is in your hands :D

A - short war against Egypt then switch to infra. We should get some lands from them. IIRC they also hold our iron. It will be hard to get if we dont do it soon - especially since our units will outdate.

It sounds like A is winning.

I will aim at allowing the next player to start the war. We don't want to wait long if our units are horses.

[Edit: What about the GA? Our phalanx would be very nice to defend the horses, but it does mean the early GA. [Edit2: I am going to assume we are going to have our GA unless there is strong opposition. Not using one of our primary advantages for fighting seems silly]]

It sounds like A is winning.

I will aim at allowing the next player to start the war. We don't want to wait long if our units are horses.



:) :nuke: :king:

I will aim at allowing the next player to start the war.

We should be a little conservative here imo, warfare will be more difficult because of the rules we are using and warmonging because of the warmonging isn't the way to win this game.

We can re-evaluate if we are ready after my turn (tonight). My worry is that if the AI gets chivalry (and has the resources) then we have chosen the wrong path to take and waited too long. Horses vs knights is ugly.

This is my biggest fear with going with option A. If Egypt does have knights, I think we can still salvage something by going after the english towns and clearing them off. Those towns would be fairly easy to over-run. If that is all we are doing I would rather build the markets intermixed with units so we start earning cash earlier. We don't need a large military force right away.

If Egypt is missing horses (they have iron) then maybe we can wait a bit. Our faster horses can at least be on attack vs the speed 1 units for the most part.

It will be interesting to see how the variant does affect us. Of real revelence is the one about the speed 1 unit needed next to the city to attack it. Thinking about it this pretty much guarantees the GA even vs England (unless we want to take warriors and get slaughtered :rolleyes: )

Greebl