Time for Bugs2.

This is not an original idea. (I don’t get too many of those.) This is coming directly out of Sirian’s idea for RBCiv Epic 12. I think this variant is a huge challenge. The original Epic was played as the Zulu at Diety and of the eight players who completed the game, only one, Urugharakh, recorded a victory of any type. There were some pretty impressive players on that list: Sulla, Sirian, and Cyrene to a few names.

• No purchasing workers. No workers through diplomacy by any means, including peace.
• No upgrading units. Ever. You build a unit, it remains that type of unit "for life".
• You may not pillage your own lands. (Includes no disconnecting your own resources).
• No trading away of your last unit of any given resource. You must keep one for yourself.
• No scrolling ahead through cities during the production phase, "between turns".
• No prebuilding of any kind. No placeholders. Ever. There is only way you are allowed to change projects. If you change city projects, you MUST wipe out any shields stored in the box by first changing to Wealth, which will erase all but one shield, then (and only then) may you assign a city to a new item.

Additionally, we will adhere to standard RBCiv rules. The rule of thumb is: if it feels like an exploit, than it is an exploit and we are better than that. The list is here: http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html

Civilization: Ottomans (this was TBD)
Difficulty: Demi-God
World Size: Small
Opponents: Five Random
Climate: Normal
Temperature: Cold
Age: 4 Billion
Land Mass: 30%
Land Shape: Continents
Barbarians: Restless
Version: [c3c] 1.22
AI Aggression: Normal
Scientific Leaders are off.
Preserve random seed in on.
Culturally linked is off.
All victory conditions except wonder are enabled
Respawn is off.

Roster:

Team 2.0
Denyd
Scoutsout
DJMGator
Bugs
Yom

Team 2.0
grahamiam
Microbe
Gozpel
Bede
<Open>

The teams are not competing.

BTW - I'm going last because I'll do a reality check on the start, and will have a few turns worth of spoiler information.

I’m thinking that the Ottomans would be a very good civ for this game for the Industrious and Scientific traits, plus the Sipahi is a dominant but expensive UU. However, I think I will leave that decision up to the team.

i'll play, looks tough. what do you do if you buy a tech that leads to the next type of unit (ie, building a spear and then buy fuedalism). can you switch (not sure if "city projects" = units as well)?

can you disband units in cities to gain thier shields or are you saddled with them the whole game?

The G-man is in. Thanks G-man.

I'm looking through the write ups for the original game. It appears that disbanding units is OK. I think the game will automatically switch the build if it is a unit, i.e. spear is switched to a pike on researching feudalism. The spirit will be start fresh.

This looks interesting... :hmm:

@Bugsy: Let me see how full my plate is... I'm interested, but I don't want to bite off more than I can chew. (And this variant at this level might be over-reaching for me...)

For those interested in reading about Sirian's attempt: http://sirian.warpcore.org/civ3/epic12.html

Here's Sullla's attempt: http://www.kalikokottage.com/civ3/sullla/Epic12.html

Here are the rest of the reports: http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=189557&messageid=1032149511

One should note that the start on this game was really bad. I'm hoping to at least have a reasonable start.

To heck with it. I'll learn somethin' if I play this game. Count me in.

Count me in too (though just earlier today my conquests cd wasn't working, so you may have to skip me a few times if it happens again).

Why don't we play at deity? The difference between Deity and Demi-god isn't much at all.

Scout and Yom are on the team. Yom, I'll put you last so you can get your CD working.

@Yom - So you don't think this variant is hard enough at Demi-god? :eek:

either difficulty is fine by me. wonders will have to be captured either way and we'll probably have to win via domination or conquest.

as for civ's, i'd like to try one of the new ones though ottomans are pretty fun.

It'll be plenty hard at demigod, I just suggested Deity since it was the original level played. Besides, this is supposed to be an extremely challenging game anyway ;).

Not a sign-up, but I don't see much variant in this game either except "no upgrading" and "no prebuilding". The former is a nuisance, and the latter just means probably no wonders until Industrial Ages, but that's normally the case for DG/deity anyway.

Not saying this would be an easy game, but just not much a variant perhaps?

@Microbe: The variant part may seem small, but you'd be surprised by how much of a difference being able to prebuild makes. Plus, you forgot a major part of the variant: no switching cities' builds unless you switch to wealth first to 'shed' the shields.

You may be right. It might be hard to speculate until you try it in the game.

Can I sign up then? :)

@Bugsy: We may also want to consider the Germans with their Late UU. The fact that nothing upgrades to it makes the upgrading part less restrictive, but then again, we're not looking for an easy game, are we :D.

Microbe completes the team. What does everyone think about the civ?

I had the same thought as Yom that we'll probably win with tanks. So Germany sounds great to me.

The advantage of a late UU is that we would have caught up at that time and dedicate our production to it, especially with a GA. An early UU probably would not bring much benefit anyway if we are not in a position to attack.

Sucks to miss out on Bugs2 :gripe:

panzers are always fun but I would like to take the cossacks for a ride again so my vote goes for russians :D (how's that for a curve ball :) )

Actually, austria has good traits and a pretty good UU too (would be fun to play with them, but Germany's probably the best civ for the variant, unless we want to go with the Zulus :D).

Any chance of starting a Bugs 2.1 for those of us who missed signing up in time for this?

I'm open on the civ.

Yeah we could do that. Gozpel and Denyd are on 2.1

Maybe we can vote on civ first, and reassign the team based on that.

I guess we need to think about what traits we'd want. It is easy to say which ones we don't want: expansionist and seafaring would be right out. I think scientific would be a good one and then either industrious or commercial would be preferred for me. While militaristic would be good, with the MGL being downgraded it has lost some appeal. The Argicultural trait would be good, but the Sumerians don't appeal to me. That's why I was leaning towards the Ottomans being scientific and industrious with a great cav replacement UU.

Edit - Just saw Microbe's post, I think holding off on team assignments is a good idea.

Thanks Bugsy :)

I never played Maya in a SG and would like to harvest workers, when we can't buy them.

That's not good, so we have more choices (4) than teams (2)! :)

I guess Bugs can rule on two CIVs and others get to vote, otherwise there will be no consensus.

EDIT: Or, everyone gets to choose 2 or 3 from the 4, and let's see whether we can then form teams.

I'm actually fine with any CIVs, so any team is short of people I can join.

Alright, let's do this then

Option A - Ottomans (Scientific, Industrious, UU=Sipahi (8.3.3 replacement for cavalry))

Option B - Greeks (Scientific, Commercial, UU=Hoplite (1.3.1 replacement for spearman))

A's fine w/ me, otto's are fun

prefer ottomans but fine with greece too.

Vote:

A: grahamiam, microbe (1/2), scout (1/2), Bugs, Denyd, gozpel = 5

B: microbe (1/2), scout (1/2) = 1

Tune in often to monitor election results as they come in. :D

Four tribes come to mind:

Germany:
Good: Military & Scientific would help a lot on research and a UU that can't be upgraded to
Bad: No pre-builds means a having to build tanks from scratch and normal workers (also currently in 2 games as Germany)

Ottomans:
Good: Scientific & Industrious helps on science and improving the land, also a great UU and I haven't played this one in while
Bad: Very expensive UU

Greeks:
Good: Scientific & Commercial are solid traits, very good early defender
Bad: Can get GA way too early

Dutch:
Good: Agriculture is an excellent trait and the UU is a cheap musket and a victory by the UU is in a great spot for a GA, also I've never played the Dutch
Bad: Seafaring is a weak trait

Edit: Looks like I cross posted with quite a few people - since I like industrious more than commercial and prefer a later GA when the cities have had a chance to develop, I'll go with the Ottomans

Edit: Looks like I cross posted with quite a few people

Yeah, but at least we're thinking along the same lines. :D

Ok, I suppose we can go with the way over-powered sipahis then, I don't want a GA in the mid 2000bc. :) It will be different when we can't build 50 horses and upgrade.

I still think Maya would be fun though, I suppose I can create that anytime myself.

@Bugsy: Can I cast my ballot again since apparently I neglected to punch Chad hard enough? :p

@Bugsy: Can I cast my ballot again since apparently I neglected to punch Chad hard enough? :p

Sure, since you're from Florida, we understand. :D

I vote A, we're definitely going to be doing some late warring. Hoplite doesn't need an upgrade to Pike, but it's not very useful in helping us conquerdue to its defensive nature.

Seems team A is overcrowded. :lol:

I think we'll just have two teams playing the same game.

I have generated a save. Here's the start.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs2_Start.jpg

I'll divide the seven of us into two teams and hope we get three more.

OK, here's a split into two teams, that I think will work. G-man, if you wouldn't mind being the captain of team 2.1. Since Yom may have disk problems I put him last. Yom if your problems are resolved you can jump ahead of me. I have some spoiler information on our immediate area so I'll keep my mouth shut. I'll open a second thread shortly.

Team 2.0
Denyd
Scoutsout
Bugs
Yom
<open>

Team 2.0
grahamiam
Microbe
Gozpel
<Open>
<Open>

The teams are not competing.

Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs2_Start,_4000_BC.SAV

The other thread is here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=91538)

ok, sounds good. good luck :)

Good luck to all. This will be very interesting.

@Bugs,

If you still have an open slot would be honored to particpate as a member of either team.

Well teammates, any directions for me?

I'm guessing from the picture to move the worker NW to the wheat and if things to the N aren't better than jungle and mountains to settle in place, if it's grasslands or plains, then move the settler N or W and found on the FP. For the number crunchers out there, is it better to mine or irrigate a wheat on a FP in Despotism. For Research, I'm thinking pottery at max and then writing.

What's a good first build? Warriors are quicker to build but have a very short lifespan, spearmen take longer but can provide some defense in cities after exploring. The priority is probably speed of exploration, so probably warriors.

I've got 1 SG (Gram 1.0) ahead of this, so I might not get to it until tomorrow.

I'm interested in giving it a go. :wavey: :bounce:

@ Denyd - That sounds like a plan. I know you play a solid opening and have great judgment.

@ Bede & Gator - Welcome aboard. We'll take you gents in in the order you arrived. Brother Bede, we'll slot you in over in the 2.1 team, and Gator you'll get to follow scout in this game. I'll update the rosters.

Well teammates, any directions for me?

I'm guessing from the picture to move the worker NW to the wheat and if things to the N aren't better than jungle and mountains to settle in place, if it's grasslands or plains, then move the settler N or W and found on the FP. For the number crunchers out there, is it better to mine or irrigate a wheat on a FP in Despotism. For Research, I'm thinking pottery at max and then writing.

What's a good first build? Warriors are quicker to build but have a very short lifespan, spearmen take longer but can provide some defense in cities after exploring. The priority is probably speed of exploration, so probably warriors.

I've got 1 SG (Gram 1.0) ahead of this, so I might not get to it until tomorrow.

I'd probably go the warrior route also, for exploration. Spears not needed till we see how close neighbors are.

Is using the F10 Space Race check allowed in RBCiv rules? I did not see any mention of it. Could influence research. With all the FPs I don't know that we need POT for our capital as the first tech.

Also, unless it changed in C3C mining a Wheat FP has no (0) effect, so irrigate it.

Floodplains can only be irrigated.

I would pump out a few warriors while research pottery at max (we can't prebuild, so we want to get it ASAP so we can start the granary soon). After a Granary we can probably get a 4 or 5 turn settler factory running thanks to that FP Wheat.

I'm guessing we're gonna end up settling one tile N. of the starting position for shields, but we may find Grasslands in the East. We just have to be wary of too much food and too few shields (at least we're industrious so the jungle clearing takes less time).

THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs20_3000BC.SAV)

Turn Log 1

Turn 0 – 4000 BC – For those interested, the opponents are: Korea, China, Carthage, Portuguese & the Byzantines (first time I’ve played with them) – reset personal preferences – Ann (worker) NE spots a BG so settler founds Istanbul in place, starts a warrior, research for pottery at maximum due in 15

Turn 1 – 3950 BC – Ann starts irrigation

Turn 2 – 3900 BC – ZZZ

Turn 3 – 3850 BC – Ann finished irrigation

Turn 4 – 3800 BC – Ann starts road – Istanbul grows to size 2

Turn 5 – 3750 BC – Slider to 0-8-2 – Ann finishes road

Turn 6 – 3700 BC – Ann moves to BG – Istanbul warrior->warrior

Turn 7 – 3650 BC – Conan (warrior) NW-W – Ann starts mine

Turn 8 – 3600 BC – Conan W

Turn 9 – 3550 BC – Conan W, note there is a lot of jungle NW of Istanbul – Istanbul culture expansion

Turn 10 – 3500 BC – Conan W – Ann completes mine

Turn 11 – 3450 BC – Conan NW spots a tobacco – Ann starts road – MM Istanbul – Istanbul warrior->Settler

Turn 12 – 3400 BC – Thor (warrior) S – Conan NW – Slider to 2-5-3 – Light Blue Warrior appears from the west

Turn 13 – 3350 BC - China (light blue) has 2 cities, 35g and is up Warrior Code – Ann moves to forest – Thor W – Conan NW – Discover Pottery research Alphabet due in 24

Turn 14 – 3300 BC – Ann starts forest chop – Thor S – Conan SW

Turn 15 – 3250 BC – Thor S – Conan W spots a hut

Turn 16 – 3200 BC – Conan pops hut for a map of the region showing spices and a cow – Thor S – Ann finishes chop – Istanbul settler->settler

Turn 17 – 3150 BC – Settler S – Ann starts mine – Thor S – Conan NE

Turn 18 – 3100 BC – Thor S – Settler S – Conan NE

Turn 19 – 3050 BC – Thor S finds bottom of island (?) – Settler SE – Conan NE spots brown border

Turn 20 – 3000 BC – Thor E spots a whale off the coast – Settler S reaches city spot – Conan NE spots brown warrior – Carthage (brown) is 2 cities up Alphabet, Warrior Code & Ceremonial Burial, with 35g and wines connected – China will trade Warrior Code + 35g for Pottery (Carthage already has it so next player should make the deal now) – The settler can found in place or move depending on your choice – Note that Istanbul will be growing next turn and will need to increase the luxury tax to keep the peace – I thought about a granary to get a settler factory going – After a settler maybe a couple of workers to remove the jungle and connect the second city

And a little candy for the lurkers:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs20_3000BC.jpg

Denyd, why did you build a settler before a Granary? With the forest chop, we could have gotten the Granary built quickly and a 5-turn settler factory up from 4-6 or 5-7 with some attention. Do we want to build another Settler now, or should we swap to wealth and swap back to a granary?

The first settler was because I didn't have pottery researched yet. The second probably should have been a granary. I was thinking about having to raise the lux rate and hoped to get a lux resource (but none have shown up nearby yet). As soon as the 2nd settler is finished a granary would be a good choice (I saved the SW forest for that). The next city should probaby open with a pair of workers to connect to Istanbul and provide a quick path to the south.

Well our lands are already 200% better than the original RBCiv Gauntlet game.

Roster:
Denyd- Just Played
Scout - Up
Bugs - On Deck
Yom

The more I think about Istanbul, with it's high food, low shields, I wonder whether a granary is ever going to be a good idea for that city. I'm thinking it just keeps building settlers & workers until the continent is populated and all the jungle is gone.

I see that I'm up... I'll try to get this played by tomorrow night. My current game of "Where's Waldo" (GK) has thrown me in a couple of SGs I'm in... so if you see me up but slow to pick up in an SG, I appreciate 'bumps'...

I think we should go ahead and finish the settler and then build a granary. With the lands being difficult (desert & jungle) we're going to need some workers to clear that mess. Not to mention some real military.

Roster correction:

Denyd- Just Played
Scout - Up
DJM Gator - On Deck
Bugs
Yom

Sorry about that Gator - I hate Mondays

:bump: Scoutsout? (the thread fell to the second page)

@Bugsy: Btw, what's the situation with looking into the 2.1 thread? Usually there's no looking until the whole map is known, but you didn't mention the issue (I saw some Screenshots in the thread, but no more than we've already explored).

@ Yom, I thought I mentioned that. No looking at the other thread until we know the map.

I gotta change something in the way my stupid CP shows my SGs...

Sorry team - I'll get this played tomorrow night - I forgot about this one and finished COTM1 tonight...

Bugs2

Pre-flight: Trade Pottery to China for WC+35g
Research: Alphabet in 16... Carthage won't trade...
Dang... Istanbul will grow next turn and doesn't have an MP...

Turn 1 (2950) Found Edrine where the settler stood... food poor... start training a warrior
MM Istanbul to get more food. Settler in 4, growth in 4.
Ann Roads, Conan moves NW
=====
IBT - 4 Carthaginian warriors move (!)
=====
Turn 2 (2900) conan continues NW, Thor W
=====
IBT - Carthaginian warriors move
=====
Turn 3 (2850) Thor W to coast, Conan NW, Ann S
=====
IBT - 3 Carthaginian warriors move S...
=====
Turn 4 (2800) Carthage has 2 workers, but unfortunately I cannot buy them under this variant...Conan N, Ann Irrigates, Thor N
China is up the Wheel
=====
IBT - Istanbul equips a settler, starts on another...
=====
Turn 5 (2750) move the settler out, warriors N
=====
IBT - Edrine Warrior>Archer
Canton is founded VERY nearby...
A barb shows up S-SW of Ann
=====
Turn 6 (2710) Muldoon (New Warrior) N
Thor N, finds barb camp
Settler onto jungle tile 2W of our capitol
Conan NE
=====
IBT - 2 barbs menace north, there are 2 that are S-SW of Ann
====

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/bugs2_barbcamp.jpg

Turn 7 (2670) Thor N, sees a small lake in the plains. Dangit... I want access to that lake. Muldoon W, Settler to plains next to lake; Conan NE
=====
IBT - Muldoon fends off one Barb, promotes.
=====
Turn 8 (2630) Thor whacks a barb. Muldoon takes a break. Bursa founded by the lake, starts on a worker. Conan NE, and I think he's running out of land...
=====
IBT - a chinese archer pokes his head out near Bursa (barb hunting, I hope)
=====
Turn 9 (2590) Rest the wounded warriors
Conan NE (trespassing)
=====
IBT - We apologize to Hannibal for trespassing
=====
Turn 10 (2550) Ann roads, Conan W, Muldoon dies to the barb, but 2/3 Thor takes out the barb camp.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs2_ourworld_2550BC.jpg

After action review:

The good: We now have 3 towns
The bad: I wish we had a granary... but we seem to be able to get settlers out every 6 turns without one...
The ugly: China is in our face already...

Conan is up north... there appears to be more land up there, perhaps another civ.

Ann is roading, and can move to the tile S or our capitol when she's done. She can then begin roading/irrigating towards our southern city.

I wanted to get a warrior scouting NE, and send Thor W... but the barbs messed up that plan.

So, for the next better player...> > The Save < < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs20_2550BC.SAV)

I'll play in the AM. China is too close. This could get ugly.

Sorry if I took us too far along a "farmer's gambit"... I should have built another warrior instead of an archer... and I didn't think I'd lose a 4hp Warrior to the stupid barb... I hate the barb combat bonuses at the higher levels. The only thing I can think of is to keep research and lux high, so the AI aren't quite as tempted to demand gold...

I'll play in the AM. China is too close. This could get ugly.

Hey Bugs, I thought I was next. :confused: I know us Gators don't get much respect since Spurrier left but we are still around :lol:

I don't mind waiting if you are set on playing or have already started.

---------------------------

Can we try to sneak the next settler 2 tiles W of Bursa? The city does not need to be productive just mainly to allow us to continue to expand in that direction. I haven't looked at the save yet, only working off Scouts' post.

@Gator: That might have been Bugsy's way of politely telling me that I've hosed up a(nother) Demi-God game... :blush:

Sorry Gator, you are right. You're up. And no scout, I don't thik you have hosed this up. This is a tough start. Not as tough as the original gauntlet, but pretty hard none the less.

I think our expansion efforts should be concentrated to the West. We can settle our Southern region at leisure, but the race for land is West. OCN for this map/level is 12 and we will be hard pressed to achieve that number peacefully.

I was trying to figure out where China is? We can only see 1 CHN city, #3 in name order. I'm thinking they are in what I labeled as area 2. If they were to our SW (in the fog) would they have bypassed a tobacco & a coastal fish to build in the jungle?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs20_2550BC01.jpg

We should settle towards China and try and run some blocks to keep settler pairs out of the southern area.

I have an idea - what about siting a city 3 NE of our capitol? (Yes, in the Jungle). The bananas and floodplains offer plenty of food... we could use it for a worker pump or place to whip units...

Preturn check -2550BC
1) Wow - we have 3 cities, only one worker and 2 warriors ( 1 scouting way up in the NW and the other redlined)
2) CHN is up only The Wheel, while CART is up ALPHA, WHEEL, & CB
3) CART has 2 techs which were not innately know by any of the civs in the game
4) CART will take 36 gold for ALPHA but we are 2 turns away from it, so I wait

Goal:
Get a city west of Bursa so we don't get boxed in.

IBT
CART mpoves a warrior settler pair W to 2 tiles due S of Conan
CHN 2 archers appear out of the fog from the South - they are W SW of Bursa

Turn 1 - 2510BC
Conan NW / Thor NW
adj Sci to 40% ALPHA in 1 (CART would sell for 11gold)

IBT
CHN 2 archers move N towards Canton, not towards us although they are still on Bursa border

Turn 2 - 2470BC
Learned ALPHA set to WRITING in 23 @80% +0gpt / lux still at 20%
TRADE w/ CHN: ALPHA & 9 gold for WHEEL
CART up only CB now
Only supply of horses visible is already in CART territory

Thor goes N / Conan N spies the border of CART's 4th city

IBT
CHN 2 archers N definitely headed to Canton or after barbs (F3 guy says barbs near Bursa)

Turn 3 - 2430BC
ISTANBUL settler=> settler (Granary would help with growth but the shields aren’t there for a faster factory)
Sci to 90% WRIT in 25 because of settler /Lux to 10%

Settler W SW / Thor NE / Conan W

IBT
CHN builds 5th city (on the plain next to the tobacco & fish - THE BOX IS ALMOST SHUT) & learns IW / CART learns IW also - still at 4 cities

turn 4 - 2390BC
F3 guy says barbs still near Bursa - concerned about moving settler unescorted - we can’t afford to lose a settler

Conan N / Ann finished road moves SW / settler W into Bursa / Thor heals (he is still redlined because I was moving him for MP duty)

IBT na

Turn 5 - 2350BC
Conan NE is trespassing but is on a mt for the view / settler SW / Ann irrigates / Thor W SW with settler (only at 2/3 on hp)
Lux to 20% / Sci to 80%

IBT
CART builds 5th city - on western side on Canton - so much for going West

Turn 6 - 2310BC
EDRINE Archer (ren Will Penny)=>worker (grow in 5 worker in 5)
BUSRA worker (ren Worker2)=>worker
Lux to 10%/Sci90%

Will Penny S / Thor SW (spots a fortified 2hp barb) / move settler with Thor (hopefully Thor will protect him) Worker2 SE /Conan W

IBT
CHN archer moves towards barb & barb does not attack Thor & settler

Turn 7 - 2270BC
Thor & settler SW (still next to barb - CHN has warrior & archer next to barb) / Conan W / Will S / Worker2 roads since irr is due in 1
lux to 20% / Sci to 80%

IBT
CHN warrior losses to barb - CHN archer takes out barb

Turn 8 - 2230BC
Will SW / Ann NW / Thor & Settler SW / Conan W (spies barb camp)

IBT
CHN warrior N (now 2 tiles due S of Bursa)

Turn 9 - 2190BC
Settler founds IZNIK set to Spear - interesting there is a wheat in the 2nd cultural ring - also no other blue borders - also appears to be an Oasis S SW SW of IZNIK
CHN must be in Area 2 after all

Will SW / Thor forts / Ann W / Worker2 NE starts Chop (no Istanbul is using that forest) move SW W (will chop this forest instead) / Conan N towards Bcamp

mm Istanbul & Bursa - get Istan back to +5 food (oops - I forgot to do it on growth turn - costs us 1 turn on growth but sped up settler by 1 turn)

IBT - na

Turn 10 - 2150BC
Will SW / Ann irrigates / Worker2 starts chop / Conan attacks N to Bcamp (flawless attack +25gold)

Notes to next player
1) Settler & worker due next turn - need to mm Bursa after settler in Istan (worker due in 3 grow in 4)
2) Conan is now trapped up north
3) It looks like we can get at least 1 more city SW of IZNIK
4) China appears to be in Area 2 (still not confirmed)

Note to Team
We may not have to worry about violating the no upgrade rule. We have no horses and we only have 1 possible tile location for iron (when we learn IW). We also currently appear to have no lux to trade for either of these later. Oh yeah, and we only have 2 cities currently that can grow above size 6 without an aqueduct. This game is certainly going to be fun.

The 2150BC Save (http://www/civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs20_2150BC.SAV)

Our Empire

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs20_2150BC_01.jpg

Now I've got it.

I'm wondering if a spearman is the best build for Iznik. It has no barracks, so it'll end up regular. Since it only has 1 shield invested, we can swap it to a barracks with no shield loss. We're hemmed in pretty good. I don't think we can avoid an early war (maybe even archer rush if we can't find horses or iron).

Edit:
As for city placement: One west of the oasis should lock borders with Iznik, bring in the wheat and reduce overlap. We may want to leave our forests intact to serve as production. Iznik can get up to 10 spt before corruption at size six with 3 irrigated plains (including the plains wheat) and 3 forests. Seeing as Edrine is on a worker and is pretty far into it, the forest chop shields will be wasted and will lower Edrine's spt until we get some mines up. Changing production would be counter-productive as well, but since we're industrious, the chop will complete before the worker ends no matter when it was started. The worker turns complete before production, so the 10 shields will go to waste. I would stop work on the chop and begin irrigating to iznik and around edrine, since the city can grow over size 6.

I'm wondering if a spearman is the best build for Iznik.

I wasn't sure what to build, I selected a spear because of the closeness of China and the fact that we are weaker militarily than them. When the space to expand is gone they will start to pick on the weakest (currently us).

EDIT: Sorry, I thought I timed the chop for after the current worker.

I think you're right Yom. An archer rush may be in our very near future.

First, my apologies to the team for slacking in my own game. :spank:

Preflight - 2150 BC – Go back and read the last turn log. This is a serious farmer’s gambit. Three military units, one is garrisoned, one is nearby to the south. I’ll let the builds stand, except for the spear. I change to wealth, then select a warrior. Didn’t matter, there was only one shield in the box. :rolleyes:

Bursa is a bit messed up. The worker will complete in three and the city will grow in four. So we’ll lose a turn of shield production. Further the forest chop is due to complete in three, so we’d waste 12 shields. Stop the forest chop .

China is up CB & IW, neither are tradable. Same deal with Carthage.

IBT – China moves a warrior next to the undefended Bursa. Can you say sneak attack? I thought you could.
Istanbul: Settler=> warrior
Edrine: worker=>warrior

1. 2110 BC – Dudes, we are hurting. Send the archer up from the south. In an attempt to keep Mao from attacking, I borrow 17G from him at 1gpt interest rate. *crosses fingers* Science is now at 70%, writing due in 21.

IBT – No attack.

2. 2070 BC – Send the archer south again.

IBT – Chinese warrior moves south next to Bursa again.

3. 2030 BC - :sleep:

IBT – A barb horse comes up from the south. Bursa: worker=>warrior

4. 1990 BC – Our exploring archer to the south runs out of dirt.

IBT – Chinese dude takes care of the barb horse.
Istanbul: warrior=>warrior

5. 1950 BC – Our exploring warrior up north runs out of dirt to the east.

IBT – The Chinese warrior whacks a barb in the fog.
Edrine: warrior=>curraugh
Chinese start the Colossus.

6. 1910 BC – Exploring north out of Istanbul we find some silks. Next settler is going there.

IBT - Istanbul: warrior=>settler
Chinese start the Pyramids

7. 1870 BC – Settler moves into position in the south.

8. 1830 BC – Found Uskudar to the south to grab a whale, a cow and two BG on expansion.

IBT – Istanbul gets hit with disease.
Iznik: warrior=>archer

9. 1790 BC – Start irrigating south towards Erdine and west towards Iznik. Start exploring southward towards China from Iznik.

IBT – Disease hits Istanbul a second time.

10. 1750 BC – Whack a barb camp for 25G. Our dude up north dies trying to whack a barb camp. Science drops to 50%, writing due in 3.

After Action Report: In hindsight, I shouldn’t have sent the settler south. West or north would have been much better. If we can ever get enough population in Istanbul to build another settler, we should send it north to grab the silks (red dot) or west towards the oasis and wheat. Between the jungle, the FP and the swamps, we’re going to probably see a lot more health problems. After the Bursa build, we’ll probably have enough warriors for garrison and exploring. Should probably go all archers after that. I would have started archers earlier, but the Chinese were making me very nervous.

Situation:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs2_1750_BC.jpg

Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs_20,_1750_BC.SAV

Roster Check:
Denyd - On Deck
Scout
DJM Gator
Bugs - Just Played
Yom – Up

Well maybe whoever can get this first, Yom or Denyd.

If Yom's hasn't picked up in the next 6 hours, I'll pick up. (COTM2 goes back to the bench sulking)

Oops, I almost forgot about this one.

Denyd, go ahead and pick it up, I won't be able to pick it up tonight as I have family visiting. If it's okay, we could consider it a swap and I'll play after you.

THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs20_1500BC.SAV)

Turn Log 2

Turn 0 – 1750 BC – Adjust slider to get writing 1 turn earlier – Note that everyone we know already has writing, ceremonial burial & iron working & Carthage has Mathematics

IBT: Not much, just a couple of Chinese units moving around – Istanbul & Bursa grow to size 2, will need luxury shift

Turn 1 – 1725 BC – Move units to serve as MP until we get settlers out – Slider to 1-7-2

IBT: Carthage demands 26g and I give in – Discover Writing research Code of Laws – Bursa Warrior->Settler

Turn 2 – 1700 BC – New Warrior (Thor) MP in Bursa – Odin (Warrior) to Istanbul – Will Penny heading for Edrime – Worker2 completes irrigation moves to irrigate for Iznik – Warrior enters Chinese lands – Conan (warrior) heading for Urskador – Ann & Bev (worker) complete irrigation and move to road for Edrime – slider to 0-10-0 to get Code of Laws in 22

IBT: China complains about worker

Turn 3 – 1675 BC – Will Penny MP in Edrine – Ann & Bev build a road – Conan moving to Urskador – Hercules (warrior) moves to next city site – Warrior finds Bejing

IBT: Barbarian Warrior (BW) shows up SW of Bursa (Chinese warrior heading that way) – Edrine Curragh-Barracks

Turn 4 – 1650 BC – Argo (curragh) leaves port to explore the world – Ann & Bev move to chop for barracks – Wake Will Penny and send him barbarian hunting – Cam (Worker) finishes road moves to connect silks – Achilles (Warrior) keeps touring China – Conan rests to regain health – Nothing new on the trade front

IBT: Achilles kicked out of China – Chinese warrior kills BW – Another BW SW of Urskador – Mao builds embassy in Istanbul

Turn 5 – 1625 BC – Will Penny (2/3) kills BW and disperses Barbarian Village (BV) +25g – Argo going east finds another island – Conan moves to cut off BW – Turn off the Governor in Iznik – Worker2 completes irrigation and moves to connect to China – Hercules reaches city site – Cam starts road – Achilles heads home for MP duty – Slider to 0-9-1 to prevent Istanbul riot (thanks Dianthus)

IBT: Chinese Vet Warrior heading to southern BV

Turn 6 – 1600 BC – Ann & Bev finish chop start irrigation – Hercules rests waiting for settler – Worker2 starts road – Achilles heading for city site – Conan going barb hunting – Argo finds another island to the east

IBT: Carthage spear/settler pair show up going for our silks – Chinese spear/settler pass worker2 heading north – Istanbul Settler->Warrior – Lisbon builds the Colossus

Turn 7 – 1575 BC – Will Penny heading to Edrine to heal – Odin & Hercules block Carthage settler – Achilles to Bursa – Odin to Istanbul – Settler heading for spot – Conan (2/4) kills BW and promotes – Argo moving N along empty island coastline – Just a note that even though both China and Carthage have Iron Working neither has any hooked up yet – Slider to 1-9-0

IBT: Carthage settler trying to skirt by block – Urskador worker->curragh – China start the Oracle

Turn 8 – 1550 BC – Ann & Bev finish irrigation move to irrigate another plain – Thor MP in Istanbul – settler reaches site – Odin & Hercules move the blockade – Achilles MP in Bursa – Worker2 has connected us to China, starts irrigation – Deb (Worker) moves to connect Urskador to empire – Conan fortify to heal – Argo continues on journey

IBT: Carthage spear settler pair advance – BW shows up near new city site

Turn 9 – 1525 BC – Deb starts road – Settler founds Izmit and silks are connect to the empire, start a barracks – Cam moves to improve BG – Hercules moves towards BV – Odin (1/3) kills BW

IBT: Carthage is going to plant a city out on that eastern point

Turn 10 – 1500 BC – Ann & Deb finish irrigation move to road towards Urskador – Conan (2/4) kills BW, but there’s a BH waiting – There’s a Barbarian Galley (BG) near Urskador to someone off this island has Map Making – Cam starts mine – Argo is around top of new island – If Conan losses to that BH, China will sell Iron Working for 158g + 2gpt (that would keep the BH from stealing the gold) – I went for Code of Laws (due in 11) so the next person could go for Philosophy and we could get Republic as the bonus – Use that Bursa settler to fill in our middle – If Carthage turns that settler around, start one in Istanbul after the warrior finishes to take that spot

Here's visual for the lurkers

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs20_1500BC.jpg

@Yom: If you still plan to swap with Denyd, that'd be fine with me. I can't pick this up for another day or two.

I'll get this later tonight, after HNDY04.

Edit:Hmm...well that was unexpected. Windows task manager shows me that Conquests automatically cancels the operation after a few seconds :( (no idea why. It has done this once or twice before, but I'm really not in the mood to try to screw around with my computer to get it to work right now). Please skip me.

So scout is up.

I have some turns I need to finish shadowing for GK2... and that's going to eat a little time. I'll try to get to this tomorrow if that's okay with the team..

*cough, cough*

DOH! Sorry team :blush: Lemme get my game face on, and get this played tonight.

Pre-flight check... science at 100%! Wow! I guess we're going for the Republic slingshot...

IBT - The Chinese found a city to the NE, a Carthagninian settler pair moves.
Istanbul Warrior>Settler
Iznik Archer>Archer

Turn 1 (1475)
Wait the wounded warriors, sail the curraugh... dang, that's it?!?

IBT - A Carthaginian settler pair appears in the north.

Turn 2 (1450)
Sail the curraugh... move some workers.

IBT - Carthaginian settler pair encroach. A barb warrior appears E of Iznik

Turn 3 (1425) Conan whacks a barb camp.

IBT - Carthaginian settler pairs trespass

Turn 4 (1400) Move some workers for road projects for fast settling, put a warrior outside our borders in a prime spot by some fish. Sail the curraugh.

IBT - Dangit - Carthaginian settler pair is coming through our territory...
Bursa Settler>Warrior

Turn 5 (1375) Whack a barb camp, move a settler out, sail our curraugh around a large and (so far) unpopulated landmass...

IBT - Carthage found Oea E-NE of our capitol.

Turn 6 (1350) let some banged-up warriors heal..

I note a Byzantine city on the map East of Oea...and we don't have contact with Theodora yet.

Turn 7 (1325)
Istanbul isn't happy, lux to 10%, CoL still in 3, science to 80%.
A couple of worker moves...

IBT - Carthaginian settler pair moves to a tile S-SE of Bursa
Istanbul Settler>Settler

Turn 8 (1300) organize a trio of workers SW of Edrine, irrigate a plains in 1 turn.
Found Aydin on the edge of the desert, and that carthaginian settler pair now has to move 4 times to get outside our borders. Tinker with the sliders (lux to zero)

IBT - Some settler pairs move, Carthage starts Great Lighthouse
Byzantines complete Mausoleum of Mausollos

Turn 9 (1275) move some workers, move the settler, sail the curraugh...and it's decsion time...

Where do you guys want the next settler?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/bugs2_750BC_SETTLER.jpg

After action review:

I know it's odd to end on "Turn 9", but I thought we might want to take a moment and strategize. I pretty much played "land grab" there with Carthage, who was sending settler pairs southward. I did some quick roading projects to facilitate movement.

The settler to the south could land on the tile SW of the cow, or pretty much anywhere down there. The Carthaginian pair cannot win the foot race.

There is another settler in the queue, and there are some potential sites that are within our borders, NE of our capitol. (Using bananas...) Any site up there will need some worker turns, but there is a worker up there roading... another is roading some forest, so we can come back and chop quickly at an opportune moment.

So... for the next better player: > > The Save < < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs20_1275BC.SAV)

The settler to the south could land on the tile SW of the cow, or pretty much anywhere down there.


If we're trying for 2 cities down south I would go SW of cow & on tundra at the bottom. If we only want 1 city south I would go 1 S of cow.

BTW, does anyone know if Yom is up and running again? I'm going to be out of town from Fri to Sun, but could play before I go if Yom is not ready yet.

EDIT: And I meant W of cow.

I can play again (I got fed up with conquests, but I got it working again after a couple of reinstalls/restarts on Independence day).

Aren't you up though? I'm guessing you want me to play now so that you play right before you leave and not get skipped/hold up the game.

Edit:Btw, SW of the cow, I'm guessing you mean W? If so, I agree with you. 1 W of the Cow and on the tundra seem to be the way to go. I would also swap Edrine from that archer to a worker or barracks (it only started last turn, so no shields lost).

We're pretty cramped (especially in the N.) so We may have to go for an archer rush (do we even have any resources?).

Edit2: I would settle the Cow site first. I'm guessing that Carthaginian stack is a settler pair, so we can prevent them from settling by simply settling the Cow site and setting a warrior on the Tundra (the other tiles are too close for them to settle, so they'll head back.

Let's put Yom up next. I'll put the whole roster up as soon as I can find it.

Edit - Here it is

Denyd
Scout - Just played
Yom – Up
DJM Gator - On Deck
Bugs

Got it (and damn that 10 char. minimum).

Edit: Hmm...is it just me, or has the roster changed a bit (weren't you just before me in the roster, bugs?)?

I'd run a two unit block with the archer in Edrine and the warrior in Aydin. Run up and down the road and use the city tile and the warrior to the south.

NW or SW of the cow works as does the tundra tile. Looks like we'll be close to ICS.

I don't think we need a block at all. As long as I move the warrior S 2 squares onto the Tundra and settle the cow spot, the Settler pair will leave since there's nothing left to settle.

Yes, I was, but since you haven't played yet, I thought it would be fair to get you in as soon as possible.

Dangit, I meant NW of the cow. Sorry guys, I played 2.0 gram tonight too. 19 rounds at demi-god, and I just finished SGOTM2 (mercifully).

I wish it was Friday... in the morning this is gonna hurt....

Turn -1 (I'm going to play 11 turns to even out the numbers) -
Hmm..apparently there are lands to our East that we can colonize.
They won't be very productive, but they'll get us Horses. Our Iron
Chances are pretty slim with only 1 tile that can potentially hold
iron. There are a couple of mountains & hills on the islands
though, so we could still have a chance at Iron and avoid an archer
rush.

We are down CB, Math, IW, and Map Making.
Aydin is switched to a worker.
CoL will come in next turn (we should have gotten Philosophy). I
will switch research to philosophy when it comes in.

IBT - Research set to Philosophy at 100%, comes in 9 at -1gpt.
Edrine:Barracks->Curragh.

Turn 0 - Our curragh backtracks to meet the Byzantines.
Apparently everyone else was researching CoL too, as both China
and Carthage have it.

IBT - Iznik:Archer->Barracks (why were we building an archer
without one?)

Turn 1 - The Carthaginian settler pair has penetrated deeply into
our territory but we'll found our Cattle city next turn.
Our warrior finds a barb camp with 2 warriors in the tundra
square, which will have to be defeated before we settle.
I move a warrior from Aydin to Edrine to keep it happy and move
its archer South to help defeat the barb camp.

IBT - The carthaginian settler pair retreats. What did I tell you :).
Bursa:Warrior->Barracks.

Turn 2 - Antalya founded next to the cow. Set to worker.
Conan goes toe-to-toe with a conscript barb and wins, getting
redlined in the process.
It's painful to backtrack our curragh, but contact is worth it. Plus,
I see a coast-sea-sea-coast crossing in the north where the
Byzantines must have crossed.

IBT - We get the FP message.
Uskudar:curragh->worker (a temple would be nice to pull in more
tiles, but we don't have CB yet :crazyeye:.
The Portuguese complete the oracle.

Turn 3 - Our new curragh will explore our Island colonies while
the old one and all further ones will try to cross the channel and
get to the Byzantine/portuguese/Korean Homeland.
Hopefully the Byzantines won't have Philosophy when they show
up next turn, as we can get REPUBLIC as our free tech. :D

IBT - The Chinese are building the Great Lighthouse (this should
slow them down. They're obviously our first target).

Turn 4 - Damnit! The Byzantines have philosophy. I had a feeling
that would be the case. They also have all the techs our AIs have
plus Horseback riding.
We can get Philosophy in 4 now at no loss of GPT to trade to the
other AIs.
Will penny is an absolute failure as he fails to even SCRATCH the
barb warrior. I will try with Conan (the barbarian) in 2 turns to see
if he can change his people's minds.

IBT - Edrine:Curragh->Curragh (I was hoping to get MM before
the Curragh finished so that we could get a galley and settle our
colonies faster, but no such luck).

Turn 5 - The island nearest to us (mainly tundra) seems to be
chock-full of Hills and Mountains. Hopefully one of them
contains iron.
Our AIs got Horseback riding this turn. Philosophy is in 3, so
there's no way they can research it before we can sell it to them.

IBT - Istanbul:Settler->Settler
Izmit:Barracks->Archer.

Turn 6 - Conan engages in mortal combat with the barbarian
warrior and manages to lose 4 straight after redlining the barb
:rolleyes:. A reg. archer will try next turn (should have waited
since the barb will heal, but I expected to win).

Our Brave Curragh attempts a crossing of the Red (Byzantine)
Sea. Our 2nd curragh is being chased by a barb Galley.

IBT - The RNG gods are merciful as our Curragh barely fends off
the Galley and our other Curragh doesn't sink.

Turn 7 - I hope the RNG gods are just as merciful now, and attack
with the reg archer. He wins flawlessly (like his predecessor
SHOULD HAVE) and takes the camp, netting us 25 gold.
Philosophy comes in next turn. I hope to get CB, MM, and IW
from it + Cash, but I'll probably only get 2 of the 3.

IBT - Philosophy comes in and research is set on Republic at 10%
(100% would only get it in 40 turns).
Aydin:worker->Barracks.

Turn 8 - Philosophy +22 gold gets us CB and MapMaking from
the Chinese (They don't have contact with the Byzantines so they
consider it monopoly).
Philosophy and 51 gold goes to the Carthaginians for Iron
Working (for whom it is @4th).

Sweet! one of the mountains in the Tundra island has iron.
Edrine's build is automatically switched to a galley (if it hadn't
been, I would have done so anyway, as I feel it's within the rules of
the variant.

BTW, I notice 'Emphasize production is off, so I turn it on.

IBT - Quite convienently, a Portuguese Galley appears from the
West (Must get a settler to the Iron first!!!)
Uskudar riots :smoke:. I give it a scientist and turn off science.

Turn 9 - The Portuguese are up Mysticism, Mathematics, and
Horseback Riding (like everyone else). But also have republic!
Maybe they did a philosophy slingshot?
The only civ left to find is the Koreans.
I have to up the lux tax to 20% until I can get an MP (the archer
that took the barb camp) to Edrine.
Uskudar's worker is swapped to wealth and then swapped to a
much needed temple (it will bring in *7* land tiles of which 5 can
be used by another city).

IBT - Ack! Antalya riots as well, it gets a taxman for now.

Turn 10 - Bah, I can't partial whip the temple in Uskudar and swap
back to a temple thanks to the variant.

The Tundra town will be founded next turn. The settler from
Istanbul is meant to get on the Galley from Edrine (I would build
one more Galley and then set it on Archer/Swordsman production)
and settle the Iron site. I would set it on a harbor immediately and
ship over a worker later to hook up the Iron (remember, no
upgrades, so avoid building warriors).
Also, I would use our workers in the South to immediately
connect Antalya and Tundra town to the road network to get
happiness from our silks).

Here are two tentative dotmaps. The red dots are high priority with
Iron coming first. Black dots are less important
cities/fillers/fishing villages. There are 10 dots, so we may want to
build settlers in a few more towns in order to get most of them.
Futhermore, I would place Tundra Island at a higher priority (at
least the closer sites - especially the two cities on/next to gold
hills) as they will be less corrupt.
BTW, Remember to abolish the lux tax and make sure our cities
are happy once the archer returns to Edrine.

P.S. Is it just me, or does Notepad make the lines shorter (and thus the length of the post longer) and double space? I had to delete a lot of empty space lines to keep the post legible and (more) compact.

I got it. Will play later today and post.

Looks straight forward for my round. Oversee barrack construction and get that settler over to iron/tundra island.

One question: Is it worth holding off on founding the tundra city and send that settler in the galley and try to grab the horse after dropping off the iron settler?

I would build settlers and try and snag as many of Yom's dots as possible. They won't be available for too long since most of the world can get to them now.

Edit - @ Yom - I like your dot map BTW.

Roster

Denyd
Scout
Yom - Just played
DJM Gator – Up
Bugs - On Deck

@Bugsy: Thanks.

@DJMGator: If you mean found the Iron city and then the Horse city, then yes. That was my intention. I would build the Horse and Iron city first and then the 2 Northern tundra cities (the 2 cities with gold hills). The other cities on Horse island are mainly fillers (most likely 1/1 unless we go commie) if the AI is slow to settle them.

If the AI grabs them, you know there is a hidden resource there.

If the AI grabs them, you know there is a hidden resource there.But is is saltpeter, or oil? :mischief:

The tundra cities + our desert will give us a high probability of having oil though ;).

As for going on the offensive, I think we should hold off until knights. We can't upgrade any of our units, so they have to be able to hold their own for some time. Archers will be useless with pikeman showing up soon, and Swordsmen will suffer just as many casualties. I say we build the Iron/Horse cities, start on a harbor (and ship a worker over to Iron city), and cash rush the Harbors the instant we get into Republic (or at least the instant we can rush them and have Chivalry).

Edit: Btw, we may want to pop a settler out of Edrine once it hits size 5/6. It has some unhappiness problems and can help us settle the islands off our coast.

@DJMGator: If you mean found the Iron city and then the Horse city, then yes. That was my intention. I would build the Horse and Iron city first and then the 2 Northern tundra cities (the 2 cities with gold hills). The other cities on Horse island are mainly fillers (most likely 1/1 unless we go commie) if the AI is slow to settle them.

Actually I was referring to our southern settler who is currently standing on the tundra tile to found a city. If we put him on the galley with the other settler we could probably grab both iron & horse cities in the next 10 or so turns.

Using that settler right now on the iron or horses is probably the best idea.

We don't have a galley yet is the problem...

I'm playing my round of turns and I have hit a situation which I think needs a team decision. On my 4th turn I was able to buy LIT and do some trading, netted 3 more techs and 49 gold. My question is should we set sci to 0% for awhile, make 20 gpt and just buy techs? I am posting my turn report so you know where we stand. We are still way behind in techs with everyone except China who has been nice enough to build the Pyramids for us.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Preturn check -1000BC
sci was on 0% & no scientist - set to 10%
We are down MATH, HBR & MYST to all known civs
also down REP to PORT
Since we have nothing to trade other than gold I do not acquire any of these. They will come down in price
when we find the KOR

IBT - na

Turn 1 - 975BC
Antalya calms down
settler N / redline curragh (Big Red) NE NE / Argo E SE / Worker2 roads / Cam NW / Ann & Deb road
Bev & Edith SE to cow / curragh3 (Essex) N N
Sci to 70% REP in 38 vrs 47 +0gpt

IBT - na

Turn2 - 950BC
Izmit archer => settler
wake Odin in Izmit send SW S S / wake Herc in Istan and send him S SE S to Edrine ( trying to lower lux rate to 10%)
Cam mines / Essex N N / Big Red N NW / Argo E E / Edith & Bev road / Ann & Deb SE and mine cow / settler N

IBT - Beijing completes Pyramids

Turn3 - 925BC
Antalya worker => barracks
Odin SE forts in Istan / Herc S forts in Edrine / Essex N N / Big Red NE N / Argo E NE spies KOR
Worker2 SW SW / Edith & Bev mine / settler N / Fanny NE mines / Ann NW mines / Deb SE
lux down to 10% / sci to 80% REP in 33 vrs 36 and we're +1gpt

contact KOR: 12 cities, 95gold, dyes & ivory, up MYST, MATH & HBR
Can buy HBR for 111 or MATH for 156 from CART, CHN or KOR
Do not trade yet price wont change and I don’t want to buy HBR if we miss out on horse city.

IBT - PORT & BYZ learn Literature / KOR learns REP

Turn4 - 900BC
Istanbul settler => settler

TRADES:
PORT & BYZ will sell LIT for 184gold - I buy from BYZ since they have a smaller treasury
CART offer MATH, HBR & 76 gold for LIT - I agree
CHN offers MYST & 60gold for LIT - I agree
KOR offers 97 gold (all their money) for LIT - since BYZ have it I sell to KOR

We acquire 4 techs and net 49 gold.

Tech Assessment
CART are up CONST
CHN is even
BYZ are up POLY, CURR, REP & CONST
KOR are up REP
PORT are up POLY, CURR & REP
Do we continue to research or should we set sci to 0% and pull in 20gpt and start buying techs?

Aw man... I thought for a minute there that you'd gone and declared war on the whole planet or something... too bad we're not in good enough shape for "pointy stick research".

Aw man... I thought for a minute there that you'd gone and declared war on the whole planet or something... too bad we're not in good enough shape for "pointy stick research".

We're getting closer to that "point" with CHN & CART.

BTW, KOR is in the lead by score, BYZ are in the lead by techs.

I wouldn't declare war any time soon. Knights seem to be the best time to declare. Too bad we can't upgrade them to sihapi, but them's the rules.

I think we're doing just fine trading. I don't know why you upped research in the first place. Republic is insanely expensive.

OTOH, Libraries are cheap and we could build them in every city and research and trade rather than go straight gold. I would wait until we get libraries in every city and we're in the MA/tech parity before researching

BTW, any chance of getting Currency from the Portuguese? There's a very nice trade to be had if we have enough gold. Currency from portugal. Currency + gold to Carthage for Construction. Construction to Portugal for Polytheism + gold. Polytheism, Construction, Currency (and maybe a little gold) to Korea for Republic and BAM! We're at Tech parity.

The same could be done buying Construction from Carthage and then trading for Currency (Construction is more expensive).

I think we're doing just fine trading. I don't know why you upped research in the first place. Republic is insanely expensive.

I upped it because at 10% it was taking 47 turns to get and no one else on our continent had it yet. Was trying to get it for trading purposes. (BTW critiques of my play are always welcomed and even encouraged. It's the only way to learn. :) )


BTW, any chance of getting Currency from the Portuguese? There's a very nice trade to be had if we have enough gold. Currency from portugal. Currency + gold to Carthage for Construction. Construction to Portugal for Polytheism + gold. Polytheism, Construction, Currency (and maybe a little gold) to Korea for Republic and BAM! We're at Tech parity.

The same could be done buying Construction from Carthage and then trading for Currency (Construction is more expensive).

Currently we do not have enough money, that's why I posted my question. Since it look likes we need to be trading to maintain techs, if we stop researching for awhile we can hopefully buy a Monopoly tech and sell it around like I did with LIT.

I would run either 0% science or lone scientist in a corrupt city. Cash will be king for us for quite a while.

Turn 4 - 900BC continues

Set sci to10% until I can reassign a citizen to scientist - REP in 44 +20gpt

With GPT available we now have enough to trade for CURR from PORT

2nd Round of trading for this turn:
268gold (all our money) & 8 gpt to PORT for CURR
CURR to CART for CONST & 114 gold (all their money)
CONST to PORT for POLY & 108 gold
WE ENTER THE MIDDLE AGES AND ACQUIRE FEUDALISM (BYZ got ENGIN)
CURR to CHN for 305 gold (all their money)
CONST & CURR to KOR for REP
FEUD to BYZ for ENGIN & 240 gold (all their money)
FEUD to PORT for 447 gold & 3 gpt (all their money)

Istan settler S SE S / worker2 irr / Edith & Bev SE / Deb roads / other Setller NE N NE / Essex SW SW / Big Red E SE / Argo N N / we now have a Bgalley NE of our bottom tundra tile so I move the archer W out of Uskudar

I do not revolt this turn because galley wont be ready until next turn.

So ends Turn4
We pick up 6 more techs in 2nd round of trading and end the turn having acquired 10 techs and in the MA. We now have a tech lead on everyone and all the money in the world.
Sci set to 10% MONOT in 50 +15gpt & our Treasury is now 1214gold.

IBT - na

Turn5 875BC
Edrine galley => harbor
Uskudar roits (oops, forgot to check after moving archer, too worried about our workers and a Barb uprising having entered MA)

Archer S (there is a Bcamp there / Ann & Fanny E E SE / Edith & Bev mine / settler S other Settler N both load onto galley E S S / Essex SW SW / Big Red SE E / Argo N NE
Revolt - damn 7 turns reset cities for anarchy

IBT - Bgalley moves towards our galley

Turn6 - 850BC
forgot to assign a scientist last turn do it now
Oh ****e :eek: the Bcamp has 18 barbs in it and we have 4 workers and 1 archer in that area
Wake Herc & a warrior from Edrine move them S SW S / stop Edith & Bev from mining and move them E / Ann & Fanny NW / galley E NE N / Essex SW S try to block for galley / Big Red NE N / Argo NE E / Archer forts in front on Bcamp if road completes at EOT then the 2 warriors can join the archer

IBT - no barbs out of camp / Bgalley attacks Essex which is redlined but survives

Turn7 - 825BC
Herc & warrior S W road was not done / Ann & Fanny N NE start irr / Edith & Bev N N NE / Essex S S / Galley NE E SE / Big red NE waits / Argo NE NE /

IBT - na

Turn8 - 800BC
Edith & Bev irr / Deb mines / Herc & warrior S join with archer / Esex S S / Galley S S S / Big red NW NW (looking for bcamps since are settlers are unescorted) / Argo E SE

IBT - CHN demands CONST - I give it

Turn9 - 775BC
Fort Herc & warrior with archer / Essex S N / galley S SW drop off settler then NE / Big Red NW SE / Argo E S

IBT

Turn 10 - 750BC
Worker2 roads / Ann & Bev N N N / Edith & Fanny NE / settler SW now on red dot for Iron city / galley NE NE E / Big Red SE S / Argo S S / Essex waits

Notes for next player:
Iron city is ready to found. Galley with settler is almost to Horse city spot. We have 2 turns of anarchy left and 18 barbs sitting on our southernmost point. They have been there since turn 4 and have not attacked yet.

The other civs have learned a few of our techs but they had no money to trade for so no big loss.

THE 750BC SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs20_750BC.SAV)

The barb situation
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs20_03.jpg

Galley to Horse City
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs20_04.jpg

Nice turnset DJMGator13 - Excellent tech trading :thumbsup:

I'm not sure what the barb setting was, it might be sendantary, which would explain why they haven't moved. I suggest we get a couple of pikemen down their as soon as we can get iron connected. Once we have horses & iron hooked up, they might be excellent training ground for our veteran knights to earn a few promotions.

Good turns, looks like I overestimated the price of trading for Republic and Construction.

May I ask, though, why is there a barb camp on that square? I just cleared one there and it shouldn't have popped up if there was no fog of war on that square.

The reason the barbs aren't moving isn't because they are sedentary (at least I don't think). It's because they're broken in C3C. They only attack on the NW-SE axis (I think that's the one) and so can't go anywhere with the only land tile being on the N-S axis.

The reason the barbs aren't moving isn't because they are sedentary (at least I don't think). It's because they're broken in C3C. They only attack on the NW-SE axis (I think that's the one) and so can't go anywhere with the only land tile being on the N-S axis.Where did you read that? It doesn't seem consistent with some (ugh) recent experiences I had with barbs in another SG (also [c3c]1.22f). IIRC, I was attacked from NE to SW and from E to W. It seems that in another game I played the barbs behaved in similar fashion; stacks of horses not moving from camp.

May I ask, though, why is there a barb camp on that square? I just cleared one there and it shouldn't have popped up if there was no fog of war on that square.


When I moved that settler to go after the horse & iron cities I missed that the very tip was shadowed. Could have avoided the camp by simply moving a worker there before all the trading in turn 4. But when I started the trading I had no idea we would end up with 10 techs and in the MA.

@Scout & Bugs - I think we just found another nice trading exercise to post in our GK2.2 trading exercise.

Here's the 900BC Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs20_900BC.SAV) if anyone want to replay the trades.

Excellent work Gator. I've got it. I'll have the game posted by tomorrow afternoon.

Pre-flight – 750 BC – Anarchy – Things look ok.

1. 730 BC – Found Iron City. Install Joe Grushecky as governor and the Houserockers as city council. Start a warrior. Whack some barbs down at that camp.

IBT – The Ottoman Republic is born.

2. 710 BC – Lux goes to 20%, run lone scientist.

IBT – Korea starts Sun Tzu’s

3. 690 BC – The Byzantines have settled two cities on horse island. We found Pondarosa claiming the horses. Hoss Cartwright is the governor. Start a warrior.

IBT – Iznik: Barracks=>archer

4. 670 BC – Portugal has Monarchy for sale. No thanks. Can I rush a build in this variant? Go back to the thread and read what I wrote. :rolleyes: I can rush, I just can’t upgrade. Spend 208G rushing a harbor in Edrine.

IBT – Edrine: harbor=>settler
Bursa: barracks=>archer
Koreans complete Zeus.

5. 650 BC - :sleep:

IBT - Izmet: settler=>archer

6. 630 BC – Lux goes to 30% for growth.

IBT – Chinese build the Lighthouse.

7. 610 BC - :sleep:
8. 590 BC – Lose a warrior whacking barbs. The archer promotes.

IBT – The Portuguese are going to grab a spot on Iron Island.
Istanbul: settler=>archer
A curragh sinks crossing over to Byzantine waters.

9. 570 BC – Hurry three archers and a warrior.

IBT – Bursa, Iznik, Izmit: archer=> archer
Uskadar: Spear=>barracks
Pondarosa: warrior=>worker

10. 550 BC – Change the lone scientist to Pondarosa.

After Action – Pretty Boring stuff. Build up an archer force for a rush on Northern China.

Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs20,_550_BC.SAV

Roster:
Denyd – Up
Scout - On Deck
Yom
DJM Gator
Bugs - Just played

Good turns. I guess we're still going for an archer rush?

Good job getting us iron and horses Bugsy! All I got us was some desert and a cow....

It is still going to be a bit before we have iron and horses. I felt we needed to build some kind of military, so I went with archers. We can't upgrade anything so we will want to switch over to swords and horses as soon as we can.

It is still going to be a bit before we have iron and horses. I felt we needed to build some kind of military, so I went with archers. We can't upgrade anything so we will want to switch over to swords and horses as soon as we can.Archers are good as far as I'm concerned. I think they're much improved over their vanilla counterparts. The defensive bombard matters more with these ancient age units.... Even in groups of 2-3, they can be used effectively.

When we get everything hooked up, stacks of archers/swords/horses might be nasty... horses can knock a HP or two off, while swords/archers finish off the defenders...

I think Knights will be our main offensive units, considering that they're only 2 techs away.

Tracking the order-of-go here... am I 'on deck' after denyd? This one confuses me... 'cause I'm in one or 2 other SG's with denyd....and I think he follows me in another...

Sorry for the delay - I got it and will play tonight

Had some problems either with the CFC Server or my ISP (probably) so I had to wait until now to post results:

THE SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs20,_350_BC.SAV)


Turn 0 – 550 BC – All looks pretty good – continuing with Archer rush plans – not sure where the settler is bound for – I’ll try to get out Vet Archers promoted to elites on those Barbarian horse (BH)

IBT – Edrine Settler->Settler

Turn 1 – 530 BC – Hawkeye (vet Archer) heading to Barbarian Village (BV) – Orion (vet Archer) also heading to BV – Robin (vet Archer) is the first to setup for attack on China – Hood (vet Archer) (2/4) kills BH – Settler heading for NE coast to setup village – Galley picks up second settler – curraghs explore – Three now have invention

IBT: Foot races with Carthage for that last coastal spot – Iron City Warrior->Worker

Turn 2 – 510 BC – Hood rests – Brute (warrior) MP in Iron City – Archers in motion – curraghs explore – Galley moves settlers to spots

IBT: Byzantine start Great Library

Turn 3 – 490 BC – Settler reaches spot but need swamp drained before he can settle – 3 workers sent to drain swamp – curraghs explore – Hood (3/4) kills BH – Spend 43g to build an Embassy in Lisbon (has temple, harbor, Colossus, Oracle and Great Library in 8 – defended by 6 spears – making 11spt – no resources – spend 497g on a immediate steal (they are our equal in military and a long way away) and get Invention

IBT: A Portuguese galley shows up on the eastern coast – Korea starts Leo’s – China starts Temple of Artemis

Turn 4 – 470 BC – Settler founds Kafa (future fishing village) starts warrior – By the way all our Archer builds are now longbow builds (automatic switch) – Hood (2/4) kills BH – Taxman hired in Iznik

IBT: Settler/Worker blockade convince Cartage to recall settler – Constantinople builds Temple of Artemis

Turn 5 – 450 BC – Ann & Bev start to clear wetlands – curraghs explore – Galley with settler heading to drop off at point once BV is gone – Hawkeye (2/4) kills BH – Hood rests – Orion (1/4) kills BH still one left – Carthage needs Engineering – so trade Engineering to Carthage for 8g & wines

IBT: Korea starts Hanging Gardens

Turn 6 – 430 BC – Hawkeye rests – Orion rests – Hood (3/4) kills BH and sacks BV ( +25g) – settler moving toward spot – workers move to connect new city – Antalya gets a taxman

IBT: curragh watches a pair of Carthage settlers heading north – Istanbul LongBow->Marketplace (why were we building units in cities without barracks) – Beijing builds Great Library

Turn 7 – William (Longbow) moving to rally point – Settler will reach site next turn – workers move to connect future site – archer sent to rally point – Trade Engineering to China for spices + 26g

IBT: Just a Portuguese galley roaming about

Turn 8 – 390 BC – Settler reaches spot – Archers moving – Whack waiting for settler

IBT: Theodora demands 49g and I give in (she’s got more military than us and can reach our horse city – Byzantine warrior approaching horse city - Chinese settler going south – Bursa longbow–>longbow – Aydin barracks->Longbow

Turn 9 – 370 BC – Tell (Vet LB) moves to Rally point – Settler founds Ankara starts Trebuchet – Whack MP in Ankara – archers on the move – Curraghs explore – galley waiting for settler

IBT: A lot of Chinese spearmen & settlers heading south towards Beijing – Edrine settler->Longbow – Izmit Longbow->Spearman – Ponderosa worker->harbor

Turn 10 – 350 BC – Odysseus (LB) moving to rally point – Settler founds Salonika starts trebuchet – settler jumps on galley – curraghs explore

The good news is that we’re even on tech – the bad news is we are weak against everyone except China (average) – so far 2 LB & 3 Archers at rally point and 1 of each on the way – We need some defenders in our cities

All things considered, not a turnset I'll write home about. I'm concerned we'll be shooting arrows at muskets soon. This is going to be a diffiicult one to win.

Edit: I'm the guy naming our units and I do it so the turn log is a little easier to do. Once we get to 50+ units, I normally stop unless the unit does something special.

Good turns, but why did you steal invention and trade Engineering for so cheap? Carthage only knows us and Byzantine and China only knows us and China, so you sold it to them at 3rd and 2nd for just a luxury. Do we need luxuries that bad? Also, stealing techs isn't really profitable before Espionage and the Industrial age. Stealing with a diplomat is much more likely to fail and would have wasted 500 gold and started a war. I wouldn't steal any more until we get Espionage or an AI starts to run away with the game.

The invention steal was because there was no real threat if I failed and 400g is a cheap price for that tech. I wanted to try and keep us as close to current in techs. With our small land and city count, we''ll have trouble supporting a large military and not being able to upgrade them, means we need to build new units ASAP. Your point about embassy steals is well taken, but I'm not sure we'll be able to keep up on techs at just a single scientist pace. If we can take Beijing, the Great Library will give us a short breather on research, but until the entire island is secure, we run the risk of getting run over by Carthagian knights.

The reason for the deal of Engineering to China was that since Carthage and we both new the tech and China had just completed the Great Library, they were about to get it for nothing. Also Portugal has a galley circling the island and was about to reach China. The early deal with Carthage for engineering was to get an additional luxury. We had 3 cities about to riot and it was going to take 50% luxuries to prevent that. Adding the 2 luxuries will let us run at 10-20% luxuries until we can get some marketplaces on line.

I'll wait for some thoughts from the team before I play this... suggestions/priorities would be appreciated. Should I try to set us for a wartime footing? It looks like we need to prepare for war against China soon...

We need to be on a war footing. China is the target. Without upgrades, our forces will be mixed.

Scoutsout: We've got 4 Archers & 3 LB available right now, we'll probably need a couple more LB before starting and a couple of Spearmen to defend the border cities and the SOD.

Set us up for a slugfest. Got it.

Pre-flight check:

Changing the tax collector to a scientist in Bursa takes Monotheism to 25 turns from never.
We have 4 completely undefended cities in our homeland.
Rush the Rax in Uskadar for 40g.
MM a citizen to forest in Iznik (2 happy, 1 content, 1 unhappy) takes city to 5spt after corruption. Should kick out longwows in 8t. Cash rush the last 2 turns off longbow for 24g.
Tile-swap Antalya and Uskadar to get another shield in Analya. Fire clown in Uskadar, hire tax collector. Put a citizen on irrigated plains in Aydin to speed growth.

IBT - Iznik Longbow>Longbow | Uskadar Rax>Spear | Antalaya Rax>Spear
Carthage building Hanging Gardens

Turn 1 (330)
Do a little mining, move a longbow or two in the general direction of China.
MM Istantbul to slow growth and speed Market build.

IBT - Iron City riots, Byzantines start Leo's

Turn 2 (310) Wake Tell (LB), send Tell and Hood (A) towards China.
MM citizen on mined grass in Uskadar shaves 3 turns off spear build. Sail the ships (I have no idea where to put this settler...)

IBT - Horses connected to Pondarosa. Wang Kon complains about a passing Curraugh, Chinese building Sun Tzu. The Essex sinks in a suicide run.

Turn 3 (290) Worker moves...sail our navy...

IBT - Izmit Spear>Longbow Kafa Warrior>Harbor

Turn 4 (270)
Cash rush spears in Antalya (44g) and Uskadar (48g) some worker moves, drop the settler off in our lands for possible raze and replace operations.

IBT - Bursa Longbow>Longbow | Uskadar Spear>Spear | Antalya Spear>Spear

Turn 5 (250) Some worker moves, positioning troops, rush the market in Istanbul for 198g.

IBT - Istanbul Market>Rax | Antalya riots (sorry team)

Turn 6 (230) Portugal and Korea have gunpowder.

IBT - Henry demands 39 gold. Because I'm not particularly fond of Henry these days, I tell him to pack sand, and he does.

Turn 7 (210) worker moves, troop movements... I conduct an investigation of Beijing.
1 iron, Temple due in 4, starvation diet, 4 spears, 2 settler pairs. Has a harbor.

IBT - Portugese complete Hanging Gardens.

Turn 8 (190)
Rush a longbow in Bursa, move some troops into position...

IBT - Hannibal offers us Monarchy for Invention and 270g
Bursa Longbow>Spear | Iznik Longbow>Spear

Turn 9 (170) I have 5 Longbows poised outside China's borders...and have constructed an "alternate road"...

Rush the longbow in Aydin for 40g, wake sting in Iznik and send him to the rally point. Rush the Rax in Istanbul for 76g.

IBT - Istanbul Rax>Longbow | Aydin Longbow>Spear

Turn 10 - put a spear on the mountain that 4 workers are mining near Istanbul.
Cash rush a spear in Bursa for 60g, and another in Iznik for 60g

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs2_150BC_SCHEME.jpg

I'll make this after action review short:

I spent some of our cash. It's "Go Time". Here's > > The Save < < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs2_150_BC.SAV)

Roster

Denyd
Scout - Just played
Yom – Up
DJM Gator - On Deck
Bugs

I should have mentioned this - I don't think pillaging that tile will be taken as an act of war....but we should probably declare before pillaging and moving troops in to avoid a rep hit...

Pillaging neutral tiles doesn't give a rep hit, but why do we want to pillage a tile that will eventually come under Iznik's 21?

Pillaging neutral tiles doesn't give a rep hit, but why do we want to pillage a tile that will eventually come under Iznik's 21?In order to cut the land route between Beijing and any other chinese city. At the very least, it will cut the lux going to Beijing and slow down any counterattack/reinforcements.

It's a really minor move, I know, but we need every edge we can get....

I think it also cuts the iron flow to the northern Chinese cities, so no new pikemen once the road is cut. Hopefully we can take those northern cities before muskets start showing up (all that desert might finally be of use).

The chinese do have a harbor up the coast, so I don't think it will cut the iron supply to those cities... but taking Beijing would. I think I put just enough there to take it.

Pillaging that road gives a very minor tactical advantage... it would slow down any chinese units that are sent to overtake our stack...but it might be just enough to keep any chinese units from closing with our stack before they close on Beijing. The side road that I constructed would maintain connectivity once Beijing is taken, and allow us to attack any stacks sent to chase our stack...

I did a quick investigation of Beijing during my turns. Mao was building a temple, I noted no barracks, and it was defended by spears.

I'll admit, this archer/longbow rush is a little dicey...but I don't see us out-building the AI at this level to gather strength. Let's use the archers while they've still got some potential use...

Perhaps that northern stack should be pulled to the halfway point between Bursa and Iznik to counter any counterattacks aimed at those cities.

I pretty much played those turns with a goal of getting us on a war-footing as quickly as possible. Istanbul now has a market and a barracks, with some workers mining a mountain that ought to help the shield production there...I don't see the need to build anything but units there for the forseeable future.

Edit: Assessment of Beijing in Turn 7.

Turn 0 - I swap Istanbul to a spearman (no shields in the bin).
Bursa's spearman will be better used defending our 3 archers and
1 longbowman in their attack vs. Canton. Our military is strong
vs. the Chinese, though.

IBT - Bursa:Spearman->Longbowman
Iznik:Spearman->Longbowman
Izmit:Longbowman->Longbowman
Lagos completes The Great Wall

Turn 1 - Pillage the road. Seeing as our army is stronger than
China's, I demand their 10 gold and get it. Hmm...There is still 6
turns left on a deal involving them giving us spices. If I declare
war, does our rep get ruined? I don't think so, but I do a test to
make sure and our rep stays clean.
6 Longbowmen, 2 archers and 1 spearman head for Bejing.
2 Longbowmen, 3 archers and 1 spearman move next to canton
and are unfortunately met by a regular pike.

IBT - A chinese galley appears in the south. Not good.
Istanbul riots :smoke: Ack! Bursa does too, must be WW (pretty
early, but our cities were already on the edge of a riot).
(Edit: It was the loss of Spices from china, stupid me.)
Iznik has to be MMed to avoid a riot as well.
Uskudar:Spearman->Temple
Lisbon completes Sun Tzu's

Turn 2 - The Bejing party approaches Bejing and is happy to find a
regular spearman.
Vet Longbowman vs. 3/3 pikeman wins, but is redlined.
Another Pikeman is under it, so I will wait before Assaulting
Canton. It's hard to understand why it's defended better than the
capital. I up the lux tax to 20% but I still have to hire some
taxmen. Surprisingly, the unhappy people don't show War
Weariness to be a factor.

IBT - Antalya:Spearman->Longbowman
An Archer and Warrior appear out of Canton, which gets a veteran
Pikeman (it won't fall any time soon).

Turn 3 - Bah, Bejing got a pikeman in it (regular and unfortified).
Vet Longbowman vs. reg pike wins, -1 hp
Vet Longbowman vs. reg spear wins, -2hp and promotes
Vet Longbowman vs. reg spear loses (the spear loses 1 hp). We
mourn the loss of odysseus.
Vet Longbowman vs. reg spear wins flawlessly.
Vet Longbowman vs. reg spear wins flawlessly.
Vet Longbowman vs. 2/3 spear loses and we mourn the loss of
Tell! What an evil name-killing spear (now 2/4
Vet Hood(archer) vs. 2/4 spear loses! The spear is 2/5 what a
monster! It is now up to Sting to kill the evil spearman.
Reg Sting (archer) vs. 2/5 spear loses flawlessly....what a disgrace,
we lost 4 units to that spear and it is still 2/5. At least we have 2
unhurt longbowmen that can try next turn.
Reg Longbowman vs. 4/4 Warrior wins, -1 hp
Vet Archer vs. 3/3 Archer wins flawlessly.
Vet Archer vs. 3/3 Archer wins flawelessly.

IBT - Our archer is slain by a longbowman.
Istanbul:Spearman->Longbowman (MMed to 10 spt)
Seoul completes Knights Templar

Turn 4 - Vet Longbowman vs. 4/5 spearman wins flawlessly, takes
the city with The Great Library and 2 settlers. Canton is the new
capital.
Vet Archer vs. 2/3 Longbowman wins flawlessly.
We will get Monotheism, Gunpowder Monarchy, Chivalry, and
Theology next turn so I change the scientist to a taxman.

IBT - We learn the aforementioned techs.
Edrine:Longbowman->Longbowman
Kafa riots (fishing village colony).

Turn 5 - We have saltpeter hooked up by Istanbul and another
source not hooked up by Kafa.
Our wines deal ran out and we desperately need them, so I buy
them back for 11 gpt.

IBT - Nothing

Turn 6 - I leave Bejing empty to take Shanghai. If it flips during
the 2 turns in which it is empty, we can easily take it back.

IBT - We lose a spearman to a Chinese longbowman
Izmit:Longbowman->Longbowman
Aydin:Spearman->Longbowman

Turn 7 - I hurry the Temple in Uskudar for 180 gold. It will bring
7 land tiles into our borders, so it's well worth it. We will take
Shanghai next turn and Assault Canton in 3 turns.

IBT - The Chinese offer peace and drop a warrior by Bejing. I just
moved a spearman into the city last turn so we won't lose control
of it.
Istanbul:Longbowman->Longbowman
Bursa:Longbowman->Longbowman.
Uskudar:Temple->Longbowman

Turn 8 - Vet Longbowman vs. reg spearman wins, -2hp and
promotes.
Elite Longbowman vs. vet spearman wins, -3hp but no leader and
we take Shanghai. we still have 2 longbowmen left and 1 more
city in the tundra, so I advance them, hopefully to take the city
next turn. The city is Nanking.
Vet Longbowman vs. 2/4 Longbowman wins flawlessly.

IBT - The warrior chooses to pillage rather than attack the
spearman in Beijing.
A longbowman redlines our spearman defending our troops
outside canton before dying.

Turn 9 - Vet Longbowman vs. reg spearman wins, -2hp.
Vet Longbowman vs. reg spearman wins flawlessly. There is still
1 spearman and 1 longbowman left in Nanking. Our 3/5
Longbowman will join the attack in hopes of getting a leader vs.
the longbowman. We have 7 Longbowmen, 2 Archers and 1
spearman outside of Canton. We will attack next turn. There is at
least 1 Veteran pikeman and 1 regular pikeman in the town.

IBT - Our longbowman defends against a longbowman and goes
elite, -1hp.
We learn printing press and Chemistry from TGL.
2/4 Longbowman vs. reg spearman loses and promotes the
spearman (3/4).
4/5 Longbowman vs. reg spearman wins, -3 hp and takes the city
along with the Great Lighthouse. No leader though.
I send our 4/5 Longbowman to Beijing to try to get a leader from
the Vet warrior outside its walls.
Shanghai is set to a starvation diet. All the chinese cities are on
workers (save pop 2 Shanghai) to starve them). I check via f4 and
China has no iron, so we can prosecute the war in the north on
our terms.

Now for the Attack of Canton.

Vet Longbowman vs. 4/4 Pikeman loses flawlessly.
Vet Longbowman vs. 4/4 Pikeman wins, -2 hp.
Vet Longbowman vs. 4/4 Pikeman loses (1/4)
Vet Longbowman vs. 4/4 Pikeman loses (1/4)
Vet Longbowman vs. 3/3 Pikeman wins. -2 hp.
Archer vs. 4/4 Longbowman wins, - 1hp.
Vet Longbowman vs. 1/4 Pikeman LOSES and promotes!
Vet Archer vs. 2/5 Pikeman wins, -1 hp.
Reg Longbowman vs. 1/4 Pikeman wins and razes the city. The
capital jumps to Tsingtao. I move the 1/4 Spearman to the future
city site (same location as old Canton) so that it can gain health
and defend the city. I move Achilles and fezzik (warriors) from
Bursa to the same tile to defend the settler pair in case it gets
attacked (it is 3 tiles from Chengdu.

The attack force (or what's left of it) is safe for now as it is 4 tiles
from Chengdu and the Chinese lack horses. Next turn we will
have our own source of spices and our happiness troubles will
diminish. I would rush the harbor in the Horse city now that we
have iron. We can then build Knights to take care of the Chinese
and won't have to worry about defense (since we can't build
spearmen anymore and Musketmen are too damn expensive). I
would build another city in between Beijing and Iznik. There are 5
wasted tiles there (6 if you include the Plain 2 S of Tsingtao). A
city on the forest or in the desert 1 S, 1 SW would be good. Now
that we have TGL we can trade luxuries with the 3 overseas
powers. Lux for Lux (we have 2 new sources of Silks thanks to
Shanghai and Nanking) is doubtful, but we only need to throw in 2
gpt and 4 gold for a lux from Korea or 3 gpt for a lux + 4 gold
from Portugal. Either way, it's a good deal. Don't forget to buy
luxuries in bulk so that the cost doesn't go up (8th luxury is much
more expensive than 1st, but buying 8 luxuries when you have 0 is
like buying 1st luxury 8 times).

As for the war with China, I would continue it until we take all of
their nearby cities. They can't hurt us with just 3 core cities and
they can't build anymore pikeman without iron. I would take about
5 Longbowmen and the 2 archers for every offensive though.
Chengdu is most likely the next target as it gains us another spice,
followed by Tsingtao and then Xinjian. At that point I would make
peace for Macao (northern colony with Iron) and anything else we
can get. Don't forget to starve down every city you take. I would
raze all cities from now on with the exception of Xinjian. Its city
site will be covered by Carthaginian culture if we raze it. Then
again, we may want to relocate it 1 SE to lower the chance of a
flip.

Looks like some good turns Yom.

Your after action plan of attack sounds good. A look at the F4 screen shows China still with 10 cities, but only 4 are visible.

I'll wait to see if there are any other thoughts before I play.

WooHoo! [dance] We hammered China!

Nice job Yom! :thumbsup:

I was nervous about this turnset, because I know I stretched things pretty tight just to get us to this point, but you played it nicely!

Yom, brillantly executed campaign.

I imagine China has cities to the southwest in the fog. I would try and gain control of all cities to our north.

There is an Island West of Beijing and Shanghai. I would just leave it alone and get it in the peace treaty.

Yes - if the rest of China's cities are offshore, we need to sue for peace once we've grabbed the Chinese territory on our continent... Now that we've got Feudalism we can start building some MDI and set our sights on Carthage... spices, iron, and Great Library makes a nice coup if we can keep it all...

Great Library came with Beijing

I agree completly about Carthage. MDI & knights (once horses are available) should be able to do the job there.

We should probably think about disbanding some warriors and archers (non-elite of course) once the MDI are being produced or else the support costs under Republic will get too expensive.

Great Library came with Beijing I knew that... having it is one thing, keeping it might be another...We should probably think about disbanding some warriors and archers (non-elite of course) once the MDI are being produced or else the support costs under Republic will get too expensive.Agree on the warriors, disagree on the archers... at least until after we deal with Carthage. The defensive bombard in C3C makes it worth keeping a few archers around a little longer IMO.

Good point on defensive bombard - We'll need to evaluate the number of archers kept based on the number of longbows in a stack.

I'll be out of touch from later today (about 8 hours from now) until Sunday evening. My wife and I are taking our son to Legoland, San Diego Zoo & Marine World. See you all on Sunday.

Have fun with the family, that's why a haven't played yet. My 3 year old niece is in constant motion. I'll play and post today.

I'll be away on a trip starting tomorrow, 7/16, and won't be back until 7/23 or later. Since I'm not exactly sure how long the trip will last, I'll let you know when I'm back. I won't have computer access most of the time, so I won't be able to take part in a lot of the discussion.

Preturn - 50AD
Trade silks, 4 gold & 2 gpt to KOR for Dyes
Rush Harbor in Pondarosa for 164 gold

IBT
CHN MI attacks settler group and is defeated

Turn 1 - 70AD
Pondarosa harbor => MI
William attacks NE to warrior
Settler founds Mugla (on old Canton site) set to barracks
A 4/5 elite Longbow inflicts 2hp of damage on a vet warrior before losing 4 straight and dies
Disband Argo - since coastline map is complete and we can't upgrade her

IBT - PORT, KOR & BYZ all have Education - we will get it next turn

Turn2 - 90AD
Istanbul Longbow => Knight
Izmit Longbow => knight
Trade silks and 75gold to PORT for Incense (gives us a 5th lux)
Lux down to 10% - fired some IRS guys told them to go get a real job
Main force still healing in Mugla

IBT - We learn Education

Turn3 - 110AD
Bursa longbow=> knight
Iron City worker => temple
Career change for IRS guy to Sci - Metallurgy in 50 (Sci at 0%)
Main attack force is healed - move towards Chengdu

IBT - Thor dies while blocking the Killer warrior (was trying to slow him down so another elite bow could catch him)

Turn4 - 130AD
Beijing worker=> library - now at size 2 ( can't starve it any lower, because its still in resistance)
Edrine longbow=> knight
Elite LB catches elite killer warrior (3/5hp) attacks nd flawlessly takes it out (no promo)

Battle for Chengdu
vLB vs rPike - redlines but wins (no promo)
vLB vs rSpear - flawless vic (no promo)
William rLB vs rSpear - redlines buts wins (no promo)
Hawkeye vArcher vs rSpear - inflict 1hp of damage and dies
Robin vArcher vs 2/3 rSpear - redlines and captures Chengdu & 3 workers (I keep town or CART borders will swallow it) set to worker

Trade Spices & 45 gold to KOR for furs (6th lux)

IBT - na

Turn5 - 150AD
Iznik longbow => settler
Istanbul shoots off fireworks and we add 2 sections to our Palace
Hurry worker in Nanking (will take to size 1 next turn)
Move troops towards the Tsingtao Brewery

IBT - CART learned Mono (getting closer to knights)

Turn6 - 170AD
Nanking worker => library
Troops 1 step closer to Beer

IBT - CART move a NM into our territory looks like he maybe heading to Oea

Turn7 - 190AD
Troops can almost taste the Beer - Bar opens next turn

IBT - a redline Dromo sails by (war or barb?)

Turn8 - 210AD
Antalya longbow=> courthouse (in 40 vrs a knight in 35 - corruption is high)

Battle for the Brewery
vLB vs rPike - we die but redlines Pike who promos to vet now at 2/4
vLB vs rSpear - win down 2hp no promo
eLB vs 2/4 vPike - flawless vic no promo - we capture Tsingtao set to worker
CHN capital jumps to off continent location and single tile appears in minimap (see picture below)

IBT - PORT learns Metallurgy

Turn9 - 230AD
Aydin longbow => courthouse (losing half our shields to corruption)
Ankara trebuchet => harbor

IBT
CART complete Leos workshop for us - how nice since its completely useless to us in a no upgrade variant
KOR & BYZ both have Metallurgy - no one will trade it, however PORT will trade Ivory for 299gold (since turn 10 I do not make any trades)

Turn10 - 250AD
Istanbul knight => knight
Izmit knight => knight
Salonika Trebuchet => aqueduct

Battle for Xinjian
only 1 elite in position so I save him for last
vLB vs rPike - we die but redlines pike who promos to vet now at 2/4
vLB vs rSpear - we die inflicting 1 hp damage (no promo)
vLB vs rSpear - we die inflicting 1 hp damage (no promo)
vLB vs vPike 2/4 - victory at last
William rLB vs 2/3 rSpear - victory no promo
eLB vs 2/3 rSpear - victory no promo - captures Xinjian set to library for culture

***I stopped here since it was a good place to pause. There are a few troop movements left for this turn but they hinge an whether we are pushing forward with attack or consolidating our empire. (There may be a few worker moves also.)***

China will make peace and give us Macao, Chinan, Anyang & Tientsin (that’s 4 of their 7 cities) - since turn 10 I leave trade & peace to next player.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notes to next player
Our first knights were produced this turn so they are not in position. I wasn't sure how quickly we were going after CART so I started some non-military builds. These are only 1 or 2 turns old so they can be changed. We have 6 lux but some of those deals will expire soon. Only PORT seemed to have more than 1 variety of lux to trade so renegotiating deals should not be too bad. China's new capital looks an awful lot like a 1 tile island or a penisula but its hard to tell with all the fog. I thin