Thread for team 2.1

This is not an original idea. (I don’t get too many of those.) This is coming directly out of Sirian’s idea for RBCiv Epic 12. I think this variant is a huge challenge. The original Epic was played as the Zulu at Diety and of the eight players who completed the game, only one, Urugharakh, recorded a victory of any type. There were some pretty impressive players on that list: Sulla, Sirian, and Cyrene to a few names.

• No purchasing workers. No workers through diplomacy by any means, including peace.
• No upgrading units. Ever. You build a unit, it remains that type of unit "for life".
• You may not pillage your own lands. (Includes no disconnecting your own resources).
• No trading away of your last unit of any given resource. You must keep one for yourself.
• No scrolling ahead through cities during the production phase, "between turns".
• No prebuilding of any kind. No placeholders. Ever. There is only way you are allowed to change projects. If you change city projects, you MUST wipe out any shields stored in the box by first changing to Wealth, which will erase all but one shield, then (and only then) may you assign a city to a new item.

Additionally, we will adhere to standard RBCiv rules. The rule of thumb is: if it feels like an exploit, than it is an exploit and we are better than that. The list is here: http://www.realmsbeyond.net/civ/etactics.html

Civilization: Ottomans (this was TBD)
Difficulty: Demi-God
World Size: Small
Opponents: Five Random
Climate: Normal
Temperature: Cold
Age: 4 Billion
Land Mass: 30%
Land Shape: Continents
Barbarians: Restless
Version: 1.22
AI Aggression: Normal
Scientific Leaders are off.
Preserve random seed in on.
Culturally linked is off.
All victory conditions except wonder are enabled
Respawn is off.

Roster:

Team 2.0
Denyd
Scoutsout
DjmGator
Bugs
Yom

Team 2.1
grahamiam
Microbe
Gozpel
Bede
RowandLive (purchasing Conquest very soon)

The teams are not competing.

See the other thread for the discussion on how we came up with the Ottomans.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs2_Start.jpg

Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs2_Start,_4000_BC.SAV

i'm assuming we're team 2.1 so :wavey:

we should probably wait for at least 1 more player before starting.

You all like Greece? Or we can choose another? I don't mind either way.

EDIT: sorry, so both teams play Ottomans?

And even the same map?

Hmm, not sure if we can at least play something different. :) Even Persia is fine.

Brother Bede is joining the 2.1 team.

Food galore, reminds me that I haven't eaten today. :)

Checking in. Honored to be amonst such august company.

save attached at the bottom

Sorry, had to go ahead tonight since I'll be out of town on Saturday and Sunday. Hope this doesn't get people too upset but it looked like a good food start so I focused on a couple of warriors and getting a granery. Not being able to prebuild the granery definitely set us back a little but we have good land and we should be alright. a 4T settler pump is definitely in our future :)

Don’t see anything great except that the coast is to the SE. Jungle to the E, plains and grass to the W. Move settler W and worker NW to wheat. See a BG that will be in range as well as 2 forests to cut down but still a lot of jungles.

T1: 3950BC Found Istanbul -> warrior, set research on pottery 100% (looks like a decent settler pump location)

T2: 3900BC nada

T3: 3850BC dada

T4: 3800BC irrigation done, start road

T5: 3750BC MM Istanbul off wheat and onto forrest to get growth and warrior in 2T.

T6: 3700BC Road finished, move to river BG

Warrior -> warrior

T7: 3650BC Warrior W, MM lux slider (bugger), start mining BG

IBT: we get disease, MM to get warrior in 3T; adjust lux sliders

T8: 3600BC warrior keeps exploring

T9: 3550BC Meet a Chinese warrior. They will trade give us pottery but not WC. I decide to wait.

T10: 3500BC Warrior moving W

Warrior -> warrior, borders expand

T11: 3450BC worker roads, warrior heads S

T12: 3400BC Western warrior finds coastline

IBT: Pottery -> CB 0%

T13: 3350BC Worker moves to forrest to begin chop for granery

T14: 3300BC worker chops

IBT: warrior -> granary

T15: 3250BC nada

T16: 3200BC western warrior finds goody hut but since these are restless barbs, I avoid it.

T17: 3150BC chop done, worker mines; find southern coast

China now up Alpha and WC

T18: 3100BC nada

T19: 3050BC Western warrior now sees a brown border

T20: 3000BC bump lux slider up to 10% due to growth.

the map, note the brown border by the northwestern warrior.

Team 2.1
grahamiam <- premature start off
Microbe <- UP
Gozpel <- probably overeating
Bede <- dusting off the thesarus :D
<Open>

Hi,

just a quick note from someone who played (and lost) the original gauntlet Epic: Even more difficult than the variant rules had been the map layout, with the player starting deep in the tundra with no rivers and only one small source of fresh water. So looking at your map, you will have a much greater chance of winning this time. :)

Good luck, and have fun!

-Kylearan

I played 15 turns to set up a 5-turn settler factory.

preturn: nothing.

(1)2950BC: We meet Carthage. He is up Alphabet and Warrior Code too. So no trade.
(3)2850BC: delay growth to complete granary one turn earlier.
IBT China has Iron Working, but we cannot get it.
(4)2800BC: I decide to do full research on CB in 10 turns. We need to get out of this hole.
(5)2750BC: granary->warrior.
(7)2670BC: Carthage has IW too.
(10)2510BC: shoot, Carthage gets CB. I should have started it earlier! I buy it with 19g. CB+1gpt+56g gets us Alphabet from China.
We start min research on Writing.
(13)2430BC: some chinese units approach us..and a barb warrior too.
(14)2390BC: Chinese units pass by. Phew. China has Wheel.
(15)2350BC: Our settler ready to settle to block the choke. Carhage gets Wheel too.

Please read:

Due to lack of shields we cannot set up 4-turn factory. But we can do 5-turn with the west plains mined next turn. The sequence is as follows:
turn 1-3: size 4. Work on the forest (or the mined plains once it's done). Make 4fpt and 6spt.
turn 4: We grow to 5 and governor picks the mained plains (or the forest) for us, gets us totally 20 shields. Now, do NOT work on the forest or the mined plains. Switch them both to flood plains, thus making 5fpt and 4spt.
turn 5: same as turn 4.
turn 6: We grow to 7 and governor picks the forest for us, gets us exactly 30 shields.

Please don't screw up. :)

It works for size 5-7 as well, but it would probably require more lux for the higher pop.

Now the problem is that we need a town to produce warriors for escorting. The 2nd town should set to warrior for a while.

The land isn't very good. We are between jungles and deserts..

I have to copy the Please read thingie, or I'll forget for sure :)

I agree, some nasty terrain we've got, but we just have to do the best with it.

I got it.

nice setup microbe :) it would be nice to get another worker too. maybe one of those jungles has a BG under it.

Team 2.1
grahamiam
Microbe <- just played
Gozpel <- UP
Bede <- on deck
<Open>

still looking for 1 more player.

2310bc - Edrine founded -> barracks

2270bc - Disease strikes Istanbul, exactly what we need.

2230bc - We only lost one pop?

2190bc - China kicks our warrior out of there territory.

This map is junk, Carthage already founded a city north of us and we only have desert and jungle left.

2150bc - Istanbul settler -> settler, send him northish.

2110bvc - Settler found spices, will settler aggressively to grab it. Well, there are no other choices really :)

2070bc - Bursa founded -> warrior

2030bc - Nothing

1990bc - Nothing

1950bc - Portugal completes Colossus.

1910bc - Istanbul settler -> settler

1870bc - IT - China and Carthage brotherly share their information, Writing, befor we can get a shot at a trade. It would cost just about all our gold to get it, so I wait a turn or two.

Bursa warrior -> worker

1830bc - Iznik founded -> curragh

1790bc - Nothing

1750bc - Edrine barracks -> curragh

Warrior takes out barbcamp and gets 25g.

We have 155g and 10 gpt, so next player can trade for writing

We have room for a town to the east, and if we lucky a desert-town or two :)

The land of Squeeze

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Ottos.jpg

Got it.
Looks like we need a couple more dinghy thingies and an archer or twelve.

The land of Squeeze

this is becoming too common for us :lol:

actually, this is a small map, right? therefore, we shouldn't get our hopes up for too many cities and, unfortunately, it looks like there aren't many probable locations for iron nearby (hope we get lucky with Mount Istanbul). just gotta take the land we're given, probably includes another jungle town, a lot of sand, some swampland... good thing we're industrious. then we can start taking the land we weren't given :) archers vs NM are a frightening prospect. probably best to eat chinese.

archers vs NM are a frightening prospect. probably best to eat chinese.

Chow Mein on the menu for tonight :mischief:

OK, I promise I'm not looking at anything here. I 'm just posting at the bottom. RowandLive is buying Conquests and would like to play. So we'll put him in the last open slot.

Good luck to all. Hopefully your game is going smoother than ours. We just had to capture the Hittite capitol to prevent a Spaceship loss. :rolleyes:

:wavey: RowandLive

Trade Hannibal 110g+6gpt for Writing and start research on Warrior Code at maximum, due in 5 @-5 with 30 in the treasury.

Not much to do but wait for contacts and keep an eye on the settler equipping.

In 1675 the Chinese send ambassadors and build an embassy

In 1650, despite having half our income in his pocket already Haniibal extorts our entire treasury which costs us the granary at Istanbul....

In 1600 we learn Warrior Code and start on Map Making at minimum.

In 1550 it is MAo's turn to make extortionate demands...20g of 30 in the treasury

In 1525 Iznik grows and throws a party without a permit...Hire a tax collector and stall growth as it will cost a 50% entertainment tax to cover the Izniks with happiness money. Dispatched a warrior from Istanbul to cover the MP duties there and a warrior from Bursa to Istanbul

Stalled the growth at Istanbul to complete the granary lost to the Chinese extortion.

In 1500BC I end up with a settler trapped bewtween the marshes, the Carthaginians and the sea. I misread the map and thought the terrain under a barb camp was grass, not swamp.

Looks like dinner was Turkish Delight and not Chop Suey,,,

Did I hear somebody say this map was the pits....

In 1650, despite having half our income in his pocket already Haniibal extorts our entire treasury which costs us the granary at Istanbul....

That's very bad news. We lose our settler factory. :( Did we also lose a worker or unit?

crap, we lost the granery? ok, now whats the plan? bede, any new towns (ours or others)? looks like i finish the new granery and try to build troops to stop this nonsense.

Greetings all! I'm happy to be here, and hope to improve my play a little while not being too much of an anchor. :)

Unfortunately, :sad: my copy of C3C isn't due in until Friday. :cry: I gave them Grahamiam's name and everything, but they still wouldn't rush it... So please skip me until then, or if you'd rather have a different player, then let me know and I'll step aside. I hadn't realized this would start so fast, as I've been waiting to see Bugsy's SG list get down to 2 as he had indicated...

ok, roster update:

Team 2.1
grahamiam <- UP
Microbe <- on deck
Gozpel
Bede <- just played
RowAndLive <- waiting for UPS

RowAndLive, whether you want to play or not is completely up to you. I'm sure we'd all be glad to have your company and we've really just started. this is demigod on a cramped map so expect a tough game.

if you used my name then expect C3C in 4 to 5 months :D

No units lost, just the granary.

Bursa was building warriors waiting to get to a decent spt for archer training.

One new town on the east coast, and a settler trapped in the marshlands as I misread the map

got it. something came up so i probably can't play till tomorrow night. will try tonight but it's looking bad.

Had a message last night from Amazon that they now won't SHIP until the 29th. :sad: Given that, the skill level, and my total unfamiliarity with C3C, it is only fair to the team to allow for a more experienced player, not to mention one who will actually be able to contribute. So please remove me from the roster. I shall lurk, though, and try to be ready for BUGS3.

Thanks to all for the opportunity! :)

Had a message last night from Amazon that they now won't SHIP until the 29th. :sad:
see what happens when you use my name :D

Given that, the skill level, and my total unfamiliarity with C3C, it is only fair to the team to allow for a more experienced player, not to mention one who will actually be able to contribute. So please remove me from the roster. I shall lurk, though, and try to be ready for BUGS3.
Thanks to all for the opportunity! :)
ok, getting too far "in-over-your-head" would have probably been more frustrating than fun. hope you enjoy all the new gizmo's in C3C. it really does change things :)

looks like things will be ok for me tonight so I will play and post later.

Preflight check: Yikes, looks like were getting out expanded here. Move Settler NE. gonna settle on the BG as I see no other feasible choice.
Maximize research to get and switch to Philosophy to be done in 19T. we will grow into it and it will do ok. Wake the warrior in the Great White North and start moving him south.

China up The Wheel, IW, and Myst; Carthage up The Wheel, IW, Myst, and Math

IBT: A warrior moves into

T1: 1475BC A warrior auto moves into Beijing so I lower the lux slider and shave 2T off Philo. Settler and Warrior move into position.

T2: 1450BC Found Izmit -> spear. Philo down to 12T due to pop growth and new town. Shave another 3T off it by changing the tax collector in Iznik to a scientist and placing the new citizen in Bursa onto the silks

IBT: Portugese complete the Oracle

T3: 1425BC Carthage now up MM as well. China up MM and Math and has a lot of gold. Hopefully we get Philo 1st.

IBT: Silks connected. Ederine warrior -> spear; Iznik curragh -> worker

T4: 1400BC Dingy goes 2T east to look at the island, lower lux slider so we don’t lose so much money

IBT: Istanbul granary -> warrior (MM for growth and to fill the granary; Uskudar worker -> worker

T5: 1375BC nada

T6: 1350BC our dingy is being chased by a barb galley. Looks like he’s gonna get caught in 2T

T7: 1325BC Move dingy 1T south and fortify, hoping for the best.

IBT: dingy gets dinged but survives; Istanbul warrior -> settler

T8: 1300BC Warrior fortifies in Istanbul, waiting for the settler. Dingy moves on his way. Philo in 2T due to some roading.

IBT: Hannibal asks us to get our warrior out of his land, ok

T9: 1275BC

IBT: Philosphy -> CoL (no one has that); Bursa barracks -> spear; Edrine spear -> spear.

T10: 1250BC Well, someone got to Philosphy 1st but our local antagonists haven’t. I’ll leave the trading up to Microbe but I feel we should try to leverage the Wheel and IW at least (Carthage and China will give us Wheel, IW, and 11g). Also, we should stay on to CoL or Lit. Change now because we haven’t invested any gold at this time.

Also, I have not selected a build for Edrine yet so you can chose what you wish. Maybe a temple to help out with our culture or start the archer craze. Same deal with Bursa.

our dingy empire

*hides eyes* G-man your PM box is full. Since R & L has dropped, do you have room for Gengis now that he is back? He'll probably pipe up here in the thread.

*runs away with eyes covered and runs into the wall* :wallbash:

roster update:

Team 2.1
grahamiam <- just played
Microbe <- UP
Gozpel <- on deck
Bede
<open>

i'll add the next player once they request to join.

Got it..........

preturn: I switch Edrine to settler (not against rule as grahamiam didn't set it).

I sell Philosophy to China for Iron Working, Wheel and 11g. We have absolutely no resources. We are screwed. Without being able to upgrade we will only be able to build useless units.

Philosophy to Carthage for Mysticism + 31g. Map Making is just too expensive.

I raise sci to 100% to get CoL in 12 turns and fire our scientist in Iznik.

The turn was rather uneventful so I'll just skip most of the boring turns.

1125BC: pillage a road connecting two Chinese towns.

Found some fishing towns.

1000BC: IBT our curragh is killed by barbs!

We can build FP now. I set Bursa to FP this turn but you can change.

CoL is in 3 turns. We have to trade for Map Making asap (we should have done so with Philosophy). Then build galleys in all our costal cities and expand to those nice islands around us. That will be the game breaker.

I left a settler unmoved. We can move it to SE for another fishing town in the deserts.

I think this start is as bad as the original one.

well, looks like bugs wanted to keep the variant as tough as possible. i'm definitely getting my fill of archers lately :lol:
hopefully we can get MM soon with CoL and then settler that nearby island. that is, if it's worth settling (haven't looked at the save). does china and carthage have iron/horses?

roster update:
Team 2.1
grahamiam
microbe <- just played
gozpel <- UP
Bede <- on deck
<open>

Ok, I got it. Those islands looks ok and we really need more towns.

If the last roster spot is still open, I'm game. Looks like a real challenging start, nice and cozy, but I really like the variant, as pre-builds are (IMHO) the human's biggest near-exploit. Version 1.22, correct? I probably wouldn't be able to play until Monday, so however that fits me in the rotation, if that's OK?

ok, thanks Justus. glad to have you aboard :) this is definitely "nice and cozy" :lol:
roster update:
Team 2.1
grahamiam
microbe <- just played
gozpel <- UP
Bede <- on deck
Justus II

Pre-turn - There is really no good spot for the settler where he is, so I send him south.

Change the sliders a bit, to get CoL still in 3t and earn 2gpt for a turn.

975bc - Luxes 10% and science down to 70%.

Change Iznik to settler as pre-build for galley.

950bc - Science down to 50% and CoL next turn.

925bc - We learn Code of Laws -> Lit in 11t at 90%.

CoL and 13g to Cartage for MapMaking and Maths.
China gets CoL for 62g.
Both the other civs knows Construction, we might get it with help of Literature.

Istanbul settler -> settler.
Whip galley in Iznik for 20 shields.

Konya founded -> galley

900bc - Cartage kicks our warrior out of their territory.

Iznik galley -> galley. Load settler and warrior in galley and send it to the island.

875bc - Our galley 2/3 survives barbgalley.

China completes the Pyramids! Carthage starts the Lighthouse and China MoM.

Edrine archer -> archer.

850bc - Byzantines completes MoM. Cartage starts ToA.

Another barbgalley shows up and the chase is on, send the galley south.

Carthage knows Polytheism.

Sinop founded on island -> worker

Uskudar worker -> galley
Whip galley in Izmit

825bc - Izmit galley -> galley

800bc - Portugal completes the Lighthouse.

Move galley into a trap and it will be attacked next turn.

Istanbul settler -> settler

775bc - Galley survives with 1 hp to spare.

Load another settler-pair into a galley

750bc - Another stupid barbgalley threatens our latest galley, have to land settler.

Lit in 4 turns, try to get Poly for it, China doesn't know that yet.

Next settler to the island should secure the horses way down to the SE, we can build 5-6 towns on this island.

what, no welcome for Justus the new guy? :lol:

tough map and barbs stink but what can you do? :) glad to see horses are in reach on that island nearby.

Team 2.1
grahamiam
microbe
gozpel <- just played
Bede <- UP
Justus II <- on deck

@Justus: we are using v1.22f, sorry for not mentioning that. Monday should be fine, lets Bede look over the situation carefully :)

Looking with an electron microscope.

Got it.

:wavey:, Ave, Justus!

Hi Justus and welcome. :)

We need all help we can get here, so be prepared.

OK, Had a chance to re-read through the thread, just a couple things that jumped out at me:


Change Iznik to settler as pre-build for galley.
...
Iznik galley -> galley. Load settler and warrior in galley and send it to the island.


Not trying to jump in and criticize, but wasn't there supposed to be no pre-builds/swapping production? :rolleyes:
I'm sure it was an oversight, it's almost instinct to pre-build, so we probably need to be extra-careful about this.


China completes the Pyramids! Carthage starts the Lighthouse and China MoM.


This could actually be a good thing! With no pre-builds, we have little hope of building any wonders ourselves, at least until all cascades break, and maybe not even then! However, capturing wonders is still a viable option, and having a good one completed by our friendly neighbor might turn out for the best (someday, when we can actually build enough troops to take it, that is...) ;)

Thanks for the welcomes! :)

haha, i see we must keep gozpel on a short leash on this one :lol: good catch justus ;)

let me throw out a suggestion: it's good if the players can list any towns at the end of thier turns that do not have shields (or many shields) in the bucket towards a particular build. That way, the next player knows right away where he has options for changes. this could be useful later when we have so many towns that it's difficult to list all the interturn builds.

:gripe:

You're completely right Justus, my mistake. I can only defend it that we didn't have MapMaking before I traded and I wanted a galley and changed it. And curraghs can't transport units :) But a swap is a swap is a....

Ah well, I will try to remember next time :)

Mountains, marshes, jungles, tundra and desert on a small world....China to our south and Carthage to our north, at least they are not expansionist, both industrious, though, and one warmonger. Resources are gonna be a problem. Mao has iron and Hannibal iron, horses and two luxuries in surplus. Millie the MilAd tells me the best unit the Cathaginians have, that we know of, is "the worker" :)


There has to be another continent out there, somewhere, as there are three nations yet unmet.


Reassign some citizens to get growth in 2 and the settler in three at Istanbul and the FP in 32 at Bursa and get 5spt at Erdrine.

The settler shuttle survives a barb galley and is renamed SG Island Sultana

Koreans build SoZ.

1-730
SG Island Sultana sails for Iznik
Settler builds Kafa where he stands.
Rename secind galley SG Arctic Explorer
Warrior at Kafa heads south on barb hunt

2-710
Istanbul gorws, lux to 20. Lit due in 2.
SG Arctic Ex finds iron mountain on the south island.

3-690
Istanbul finishes settler and set to produce a worker in 2 and grow in 2

4-670
Learn Literature and try to trade for Polytheism with Hannibal. We're only close if we include the whole treasury.
He will sell Construction for Literature+50g+5gpt. I don't trust him as he could just as easily beat it out of our hide, and the trade values out at almost full value and we can get the deficit from China, so do the deal.

Mao will make up the cash deficit or trade HBR for Literature and 8g. Decide to leave it on the table for now and turn up the heat on Currency

5-650
Sultana sets sail from Iznik with settler and warrior for the neck in the island. And Hannibal the greedy pig sells Literature to Mao for 43g and probably 5gpt, now that's a demigod discount.

6-630
China starts the Great Library and moves a spear and a sword into our territory.

ArcEx finishes circumnavigating the south island and sails for the China coast.

7-610
Cathage violates our borders with a single NuMerc and there is a warrior following.

Settler lands on neck and ArcEx sails the China coast

Hannibal has a new friend as he now has no money and Currency

Cathage declares war!, attacks Izmit and loses a warrior and the stupid citizenry build a veranda for the cave.

8-590

Shift some troops towards Bursa. There is a single NuMerc in the mulberry forest and an elite warrior just across the border.

Carthage cuts the silk road and Istanbul riots. Cycle the rest of the towns, hire a scientist and a couple of tax guys and one clown.

There is a Punic galley on the coast outside Izmit.

9-570
Raise the lux tax and get everbody back to the fields except for a single scientist (Uskudar) and a tax collector (Iznik).

Lose a spear at Izmit to NuMerc, but warrior fends off elite warrior. Izmit celebrates by rioting in the streets.

10-550
Lose an archer and redline another on the border killing a Carthaginian sword on the border. Garrison spear at Bursa moves out to cover archer. With any luck the two NuMercs threatening Izmit will divert to the spear and archer. Otherwise Izmit is lost with only one warrior in the garrison and no way to reinforce. The Carthaginian galley is cruising the coast looking for an opening.

The Front

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bugs201_550BC.jpg

It's a fine kettle of fish you're getting Justus: War, unhappy citizens, not enough troops, no luxuries, no resources.....

If Hannibal will talk you could just gift him the little town in the marshes and hope he goes away quietly. It's what he wants anyway. The restriction on build switching is a big cramp on the flexibility here. Stopping the galley builds to build troops would have cost a lot of scarce shields, but might have been the best thing to do when Hannibal declared, but that was the last thing I expected after paying him money...What's his problem with me, anyway? I cave in when he gets shirty, continue to do business with him, and he still declares with a sneak attack...:aargh:

Team 2.1
grahamiam
microbe
gozpel
Bede <- just played
Justus II <- up

What's his problem with me, anyway? I cave in when he gets shirty, continue to do business with him, and he still declares with a sneak attack...:aargh:
must be your breath :lol: nice set bede, given the circumstances. any thoughts on getting china in on the fun vs carthage? it will force hannibal to waste his GA entirely on military and prevent a dogpile that we really can't handle. actually, looks like some unit whipping is in order either way.

Mao will make up the cash deficit or trade HBR for Literature and 8g. Decide to leave it on the table for now and turn up the heat on Currency.

Now you learn that if you don't trade the tech right away, the AI will.

Now you learn that if you don't trade the tech right away, the AI will.

Sorry, didn't think it was going to go that cheap. I had hoped for a little more cash out of the Maoster.


any thoughts on getting china in on the fun vs carthage?


Tried that at least once but the Chinee wasn't having any. He is way too exposed to retaliation from Hannibal.

OK, I'm back, thanks for your patience! Got it, I will play tonight. I'll be looking it over between now and then, so any other suggestions, I'd be glad to hear. I agree we cannot afford a dogpile, but I'm not sure what else we can use to sweeten the deal for Mao. And yes, I do feel the need to break out the :whipped: ;)

I can only play on weekends for the next 2 weeks, due to work commitments during the school holidays.

I have to honor a gpt-deal :)

Pre-Game thoughts: Looks like my priorities will be defense, defense, defense! One of my thoughts prior to opening the save is that we will need more defenders than an average game. I am usually a pretty big Farmer’s Gambit player myself, but running minimal defenses relies on the ability to change over to a wartime economy on short notice. With these variants, we don’t have that option, and I think we will need to be much more conservative on defenses because of it. (Not just during the Current Crisis, but in general). Taking the No Upgrade rule into account, it may be a little painful to build a bunch of spears, but right now it’s what we need.

A closer look at the map reveals one of the most resource-poor locations I’ve seen in a while. No strategic resources, and only one luxury, which isn’t connected any more (and being on the border with Carthage, might not get connected for a while!).

OK, no build swaps, so just some old-fashioned MM. My priority here was to get as much stuff to finish as I could, so THEN I could swap to defenders. ;)
Istanbul-MM to get settler in 1
Edrine gets its archer :whipped:, it’s got one of our few barracks, and can regrow next turn
Bursa-Locked into FP for the foreseeable future (too bad, its another barracks city, but will be a good FP choice once we roll Carthage back ;) )
Iznik-Steals a mine from Uskadar to finish Galley next turn, at no growth.
Uskadar-Pretty corrupt anyway, so it whips the galley.
Izmit-Looks like someone’s used the whip here before! Not much I can do, but change tax to clown.
Antayla-Whip the temple.
The rest of our towns are on track, good to see lots of workers on our new island, for future development. I did think about zeroing out one or two of the galleys, and then starting spears, but I hate to waste shields, and we need some more galleys for escorts and to find the other continent, we have to get into a brokering loop somehow.

Now to diplomacy. China is definitely skittish about joining us, but with some creative bookkeeping (100% tax), I see it is possible. I debate this a bit, but at this point, a dogpile on us is probably game over, whereas getting the two of them fighting each other is probably our best bet for pulling ourselves closer to the pack. The deciding factor was knowing Carthage had Currency, meaning they have a good bargaining chip to get China on their side if we don’t act fast. I sign the alliance, for 2g and 32 gpt. After resetting luxuries to 40%, we’re running a –12 deficit, at least for this turn. I should be able to re-MM next turn after these builds complete, and hopefully some new garrison/MPs will let me reduce the lux rate. I leave science off, we will hopefully get currency sooner than 44 turns one way or another. We still have 99g, so we can afford the deficit for a few turns, anyway. I’m expecting (hoping) China won’t stay in the war the full 20, but we’ll see what happens.

OK, after all that, I’m ready to begin!

IBT: At Izmit, the wounded NuMerc takes out our warrior without taking a scratch. Worse, they steal 4g. :(
Istanbul-Settler>spear, Edrine-Archer>spear, Iznik-Galley>spear, Uskadar-Galley>warrior, Antaly-Temple>spear, Kafa-Warrior>warrior.
(1) 530BC: Start by pulling workers back who are now in range of Izmit. I have an idea for a few of them… Shuffle defender’s forward, trying to get as many as possible to end the turn in a town, to make the MM less painful. Then I start on the towns, and I’m able to get lux down to 20%, for a net loss of only 7gpt, and no clowns, although Bursa gets a taxman. China now has an extra silk for sale, but, um, they’re already getting all our gold. On East island, warriors fortify in towns, as we anxiously watch a Carthaginian galley sail along. I do use the Sinop canal to send a galley to the north coast, and the new one from Uskadar heads over as well. Our other new galley moves to join Sultana, to form a convoy for our settler next turn. Hmm, just noticed China settled a town on the South Iron island, near the gold hill, so the Iron is still available, if we hurry.
IBT: The Punic galley heads north into the fog, leaving our island alone. I may have to try and follow, assuming he knows where he’s going? No attacks, though, which is always a Good Thing. Konya-Worker>worker.

(2) 510BC: Our convoy of the Sultana and escort heads south, with a Settler and warrior. Redistribute defenders/MP’s again, and now Iznik needs a clown for a turn, but deficit is only 6. Move a couple workers up to Bursa. Our galley from East island tries to follow the trail of the Carthaginian galley, and spots a glimpse of a burgundy border before returning to calm waters, should be able to make the crossing next turn.
IBT: Not much happens, we see a NuMerc head west from Izmit.

(3) 490BC: Time for my bold worker plan, I move 2 spear and an archer from Bursa onto the silk square, then send 3 workers with a Road-To command, if we can hold it for a couple turns, that will be a nice help for our economy. Three other workers cut a forest near Istanbul, which will finish a spear next turn. Our exploring galley hits the jackpot, as it crosses the sea north to meet not one, but two civs!

The bad news… We are a backward people. Both Theo and Henry are wearing Medieval garb, and up 4 techs (at least), including Republic. Powerwise, they are behind China and Carthage, but very advanced in techs. This could be bad, because we know Carthage has already made contact, although I can’t see what techs Hannibal has since he still wont talk to me. China hasn’t met them yet, and because of the alliance can’t trade with Hannibal yet, so we do have a good brokering opportunity, if we weren’t on the verge of bankruptcy. ;) Actually, we’re not in too bad a shape to keep solvent, still have 69g, and only losing 5 this turn, but certainly no room for brokering. We’ll have to wait and see what develops.
IBT: NuMerc attacks our silk road operation, and kills a spear, but loses 2hp. Henry asks us to leave his territorial waters. Aydin finishes the barracks, starts a spear.

(4) 470BC: Shift another spear to the silk farm, some more taxman shuffling.
IBT: Sword moves Leptis Magna to attack the silk, but our spear defeats him. Edrine-Archer>spear.

(5) 450BC: The Sultana drops off her passengers adjacent to the Iron Mountain, we will get to claim it. Hmm, China has Republic, but still lacks the other Ancient techs, and has some cash, so hopefully that means he still doesn’t have contact, just researched it himself. Continue to explore.
IBT: Finally see movement on the southern front, as Carthage moves a sword toward some workers NE of Edrine. China continues to send troops that way, but haven’t seen any action yet. Sinope: Worker>worker, Silk road is done!

(6) 430BC: Salonika is founded adjacent to Iron mountain, starts on a warrior. Sultana heads back for workers. An archer moves from Edrine to kill the sword. We can keep full employment at a loss of 4, with 52g left, so we should be OK until the alliance runs out. We could actually run a surplus if we drop luxuries to 0, and hired a couple taxmen, but I’d rather maintain production right now. We’re in a bit of a catch-22 tech-wise. We can talk to Hannibal now, and he has the same techs as the new continent. There are brokering opportunities between the new world and China, but we don’t have any cash until the alliance ends. However, if the alliance ends with peace between Hannibal and Mao, then he will be able to trade for the techs anyway. Not sure what the best solution is. There might be a small window to jump in the turn the alliance ends.
IBT: A NuMerc and Sword die attacking our Silk farm. Iznik-Spear>spear, Ankara-Worker>spear.

(7) 410BC: Very little movement, I’d like to try and retake Izmit, but 3 Archers vs. NuMercs is probably not good odds, so I hold off and defend at the Silk forest. Galleys continue to explore.
IBT: Mao kicks the Sultana out of his waters, without even giving us the option to leave. Istanbul-Spear>spear, Edrine-spear>spear, Konya-worker>worker, Carthage starts Great Library, Hanging Gardens (ugh, Monarchy).

(8) 390BC: Hmm, looks like China could be trying to poach our horses, not good. Ankara is working on a setter, aided by a forest chop, but still 19 turns away. China still doesn’t have any new techs. Carthage will now take peace strait up, in fact they will throw in their 5g, but we would have to break the alliance to do it.
IBT: Carthage loses a sword in the north, but kills a spear in the south. Portugal establishes an embassy with us.

(9) 370BC: I am able to get an ROP with China straight up, we need to be able to sail through their culture to get to and from our Iron city, and it may speed up some of their swords headed to Carthage. Good news, that galley headed south, the horses might be safe. An archer kills the offending sword in the south. Continue exploring, Carthage has an island city with Cadiz, that recently experienced a volcano eruption. Aww.
IBT: Carthage sends a sword and kills a spear at the Silk farm. Antayla-spear>spear. China starts on Temple of Artemis, but Carthage finishes it (in Carthage), starting a cascade. Byzantine starts on Great Library, H.Gardens, and Great Wall, Portugal swaps to Library, Gardens, and LEONARDO’S WORKSHOP!! :eep: I guess we are behind the times, if they have Invention already.

(10) 350BC: Not much changed, I just checked the cities and did some worker moves. We have 3 archers at the silk forest that could hit his wounded sword, but then we’d have to cover them, which would be tough, so I’ll leave that for the next leader. Also, the Sultana arrived off the port at Iznik, I planned on loading some workers when they are free to head to Salonika and start roading the iron. There’s also a couple forests there, to speed a harbor. China has Polytheism now, don’t know about Monarchy or anything beyond that, but I confirmed they don’t have contact with Portugal yet, since Portugal built the embassy, I can see they’re not listed.

We are still in the catch-22. The only real option I see, (not that I’m recommending it) would be to make a separate peace, breaking the alliance, then use the freed payment money to buy a tech and do a 2-fer with China for the second tech. Problems are that it breaks our rep with China (but wouldn’t affect our rep with the two that haven’t met China, and would be overlooked for that turn by Carthage, since they’re still at war), and if we need to add a couple gpt to a 2-fer deal with China, we won’t be able to. Like I said, I wouldn’t recommend it, but it is an option. Otherwise, we ride out the next 10 turns, (sooner if China makes peace on their own), and then see what we can work out. Root for someone on our continent to build the Library, and try and grab it when we’re stronger?

Good news is FP is due in 8, and we are only losing 2gpt even at 20% lux, everyone working but a corrupt taxman on the island. And the war fronts have been pretty stable, a war of attrition we’re we’ve come out slightly ahead. We also got a lot of terrain worked, but need more, and need to think about getting some infrastructure in place.

You definitely got me into a challenge!! ;)

Our lands:

Team 2.1
grahamiam <- Up
microbe < - On Deck
gozpel < - Working for a living :band: (Got to take care of priorities!)
Bede
Justus II <- just played

And the save:

Wow, good job! We are still alive and made two more contacts! Not that we could do any gpt deal though. :lol:

Indeed FP wasn't a good idea. I think any such big builds should be discussed first if possible.

As of breaking the alliance:

Will it really hurt our rep? We are paying gpt and didn't get any hard good, so I think we should be able to break it without rep being hurt. The only thing is that China might get furious with us, but who cares!

I say screw China!

nice set justus :thumbsup: looks like we got the right guy for this job :D i got it but probably won't finish till tomorrow night.

I'm not entirely sure, I don't think it will break our Trading rep, per se, but I know it will affect our ability to make alliances in the future, obviously, and will certainly affect their attitude in the short term. But you're right, there's no resources or hard goods involved, so our Trading rep should be OK. The advantage, of course, is that's about the only way to get the tech brokering in, as by doing it on our turn, we have that trading window. If we wait for the deal to expire, or for China to make a seperate peace, then it would happen on the inter-turn, and they would probably trade amongst themselves. The key would be to get Currency, then broker it to China for Poly and/or Horseback, so we can get into the next age, and hopefully then use our free tech to trade for Republic. ;) (Lot of hopefully's, there)

imho, we are not too far behind tech wise, however, considering our resourse poor land, we should try not to get much further behind. we could get into the position where we have nothing to negociate and no way to extract tech's from others except by steals. At least we still have the chance to use the tech slingshot to get something from China. Getting peace and then trading up to the MA may be the way to go.
If we break the alliance and do this, then do not expect to be able to give gpt deals to buy techs. we will have to save large sums to buy them.

Just another small nitpick from the sidelines on an otherwise great game.

During Bede's last turn, when Carthage cut the lines to the silks, you used
scroll ahead to prevent the rioting.

Wouldn't this be considered to be a nono for this variant ?
( I know it comes instinctively,... )

Just another small nitpick from the sidelines on an otherwise great game.

During Bede's last turn, when Carthage cut the lines to the silks, you used
scroll ahead to prevent the rioting.

Wouldn't this be considered to be a nono for this variant ?
( I know it comes instinctively,... )
2 loops thru the cycle and 2 violations already :lol: nice catch grimjack. i guess we all need to get used to these stringent rules :)

imho, we are not too far behind tech wise, however, considering our resourse poor land, we should try not to get much further behind. we could get into the position where we have nothing to negociate and no way to extract tech's from others except by steals. At least we still have the chance to use the tech slingshot to get something from China. Getting peace and then trading up to the MA may be the way to go.
If we break the alliance and do this, then do not expect to be able to give gpt deals to buy techs. we will have to save large sums to buy them.

I am nearly certain that breaking the alliance will only impact our gpt reputation with China, not the other powers. Remember in RBC14, we made an early peace with Portugal, which broke our alliances, but were still able to make gpt deals.

I am nearly certain that breaking the alliance will only impact our gpt reputation with China, not the other powers. Remember in RBC14, we made an early peace with Portugal, which broke our alliances, but were still able to make gpt deals. true, i was basing this on a PTW game (coincidently, bugs1) so maybe things changed in C3C. we will soon find out ;)

I am nearly certain that breaking the alliance will only impact our gpt reputation with China, not the other powers.

I think even this won't happen. We should be OK with rep even with China. But it would be good if someone can test this.

I think even this won't happen. We should be OK with rep even with China. But it would be good if someone can test this.
i don't have anything available right now to experiment. i can dig thru my cotm1 game but i don't remember signing any alliances for gpt. what Justus described in regards to RBC14C is true. I and everyone else thought our rep was screwed but we did ok. I can't remember if we ever paid gpt for a tech after that though. I think I'll look thru that thread for a post to see.

edit: we seemed to have been able to sell techs for gpt as expected. however, we got a tech lead in that game and never had to buy one for gpt.

I seem to remember making an offer, just to see if we couldm and was able to. I guess we'll all learn! At this point, it's probably worth the gamble, we need to take some gambles to get out of this tech hole.

Preflight check: Ok, time to check for Peace with Carthage. The best deal is peace with him paying us 1gpt. Done.

Trades: Carthage: Currency for 11gpt and 31g
China: HBR and 102g for Currency
Byz: Poly for 8gpt and 103g (not the best deal but I don’t want to give any more to Carthage)
We draw Engineering as our free tech
Carthage: Spices, Wines, 13gpt and 39g for Engineering
China: Republic for Engineering

We can research Mono in 35T at 70% and +1gpt which is pretty bad. No settlers being built soon to grab the horses so I decide to revolt to Republic (can’t be worse than despot but I can’t get Monarch atm). We are going to have to pay 46gpt in unit support but builds will be faster. Christ, we get a 7 turn anarchy! We can’t buy a break with this game :( Scroll thru the towns to make sure we don’t get any riots. We are losing 3gpt

IBT: Despite what I saw before the end of last turn, Edrine still riots. I know that city had 2 happy and 1 sad at the end of the turn.

T1: 330BC Shore up the defenses in Bursa with 1 spear and 1 archer that are on the silks. Spear in Iznik is going to Konya to shore up Chinese border. 2 archers remain on the silks. Change a couple of clowns to taxman to make sure we don’t lose more money and now we make +5gpt

T2: 310BC Ankara grew so I make the unhappy citz there a taxman as well (+7gpt). Ships explore some more (trying to find Korea).
Portugal is up Monarchy and Fued. (and invention)
Carthage up Monarchy
Byz are up Monarchy and Fued
China is even.

T3: 290BC Find Korean border but a barb galley is threatening.

IBT: Galley near Korea is redlined but survives. Carthage and China seem to be struggling over Tsingtao. A Carthaginian galley is suspiciously close to our horse island

T4: 270BC Meet Korea. Then don’t seem to know anyone as they are down Poly, Republic, and Construction. Unfortunately, all they have is 6g.

IBT: Korea is building the Glib.

T5: 250BC Move some units around. There is no way I can block a settler from Carthage right now.

IBT: Mao demands 22g; Carthage lands an NM and a settler near our horse :(

T6: 230BC Move warriors on top of horse and move some galleys.

IBT: Carthage settles on the spot. We become a Republic; Portugal completes the Glib.

T7: 210BC Carthage now up Fued

IBT: Uskudar warrior ->Lib; Konya worker -> Lib; Kafa warrior -> harbor; Chinese are building the Great Wall and they finish it in Beijing; Byz are building HG, Leonardo’s; Byz complete HG;

T8: 190BC Move some more workers. Warrior near horses pulls back.

IBT: Iznik spear -> library; Carthage is building Leonardo’s

T9: 170BC

Aydin spear -> library

T10: 150BC Disband a warrior in Aydin to gain some income. Try to extract 22g out of Korea but they refuse, turning furious.

Notes: we are doing min. research on Mono but we’re sure to be beaten. It may make the most sense to shutoff research right now but that will only net us +8gpt more. Rep seems to be ok with everyone except China
Portugal has over 1200g.
Also, we should disband warriors as more spears come online.

Good trading, Grahamiam, looks like the peace deal paid off, and at minimal cost. Three techs, including getting us a government. :) 7 turns wasn't great, but well worth it to get out of despotism. I agree with shutting down research, or at least switch to just a scientist, which would still free up the gpt, and (eventually) get us one tech we wouldn't have to buy.

I'm not sure from the description, and can't open the save right now, but did Carthage take the horses, or settle on the coast? The cattle city on the island was working on a settler, if we're a republic we should be able to cash-rush whatever shields are left on it to get it done and maybe still make a claim on the horses.

Nicely done, JII and grahamian.

Concur with the suggestion to hire a scientist, rather than spend the gold. I'm not so sure about disbanding the warriors as the weaker we appear the more likely we will be attacked again. Even cardboard cutouts help.:)

carthage settled 1tile NE of the horses so there is no chance of pinching it with a settler.

got it. didn't notice I am up.

I'm not so sure about disbanding the warriors as the weaker we appear the more likely we will be attacked again. Even cardboard cutouts help.:)
then we need more cities. pack them in tight as required. right now we're paying 56gpt in unit upkeep. the best thing we could do is buy workers and merge ours into the cities. not sure how many we could buy quickly.

then we need more cities. pack them in tight as required. right now we're paying 56gpt in unit upkeep. the best thing we could do is buy workers and merge ours into the cities. not sure how many we could buy quickly.

Buying workers is also against the variant rules! :mischief:
I think disbanding a few reg warriors, as we build spears/pikes to replace them, is fine, but I would agree we may just have to accept the unit support costs for a while. The removal of the despotism penalty will allow our cities to grow much more rapidly, increasing our income and eventually getting a few more to size 7, which is more support and more income. Settling additional cities is also a good option, in particular I would look at rushing a couple settlers from the otherwise corrupt island cities, if we can.

preturn: indeed our rep is screwed with China. Does it mean it's broken for others as well??? I cannot say no for sure, as the only other AI that knows China is Carthage, which wouldn't care since it's at war with China. We'll find out once the war is over.

Chinese military is about the same size. Hint hint..

We have a town empty - please, never leave it like that! It greatly increases the chance that AI would sneak attack us. I move a warrior to cover it.

It seems we'll only have iron..

I convert a clown to scientist and drop sci to 0. Our income rises to 10gpt instead of 2. :hmm:

Why are we building libraries? Are we really going to do self-research? No way. But I cannot change the builds..

(1)130BC: Portugal and Byzantines know Monotheism.

(2)110BC: I start market in our capital.

(3)90BC: Chinese army now is stronger than us.

We have to raise lux to 20 as capital grows.

IBT FP is completed. Start market. Net income increases about 5gpt.

(4)70BC: Korea just entered Middle Ages and got Feudalism, while lacking Engineering!

But the bad news is it asks for Engineering+101g(almost all our gold)+22gpt, while we can only make +18gpt.

I drop the lux to 0 to make the deal, and sell Feudalism to China for Monarchy + 13g (too cheap!). Sell Monarchy back to Korea for 101g+11gpt. So we actually get Feudalism for about 11gpt.

We are now making 7gpt. Carthage only has Monotheism, but Portugal/Byzantines have Invention as well.

I also disband a reg warrior.

(5)50BC: Disband our wounded galley.

IBT Ankara riots. Palace expansion.

(6)30BC: have to raise lux to 10 making 5gpt.

(7)10BC: ZZZ

IBT Carthage and China sign peace. :( But our rep seems to be all right with Carthage.

(8)10AD: Byzantines have musketmen. :(

IBT Portugal starts Knights Templar.

(9)30AD: Byzantines complete Sun Tzu's. Portugal completes Knights Templar.

(10)50AD: lux deal expires and I raise it to 30. We are 163g making 0gpt.

I hope our income will improve with markets completed.

Note: the iron city. During my turns it built a warrior but it rioted and then dropped the pop back to 1. :(. It's building a worker now but we should switch to wealth to restart it in about 6 turns or to complete the worker at the turn it grows, or maybe we should ship over a worker to connect the iron asap so we could build some better units (pikes!).

Also I didn't complete the last turn. Something happened tonight that distracted me that I made such mistakes.

ok, microbe, hope everything is ok. i was building the libraries because we need culture and they are cheaper than temples (40s vs 60s). i probably should have done a mix of libraries and markets.

Team 2.1
grahamiam
microbe <- just played
gozpel <-UP
Bede <- on deck
Justus II

@Bede, gozpel expressed interest in playing on weekends but not sure if he'll have time here. give him 24hrs or so and then take it if he doesn't show up.

S'right......

Skip me on this one, please. I can only choose quick games this weekend and rather not stall any games. I'll be back next weekend with lots of time to ignore real life.

Very nice reading anyways :)

Will pick up tomorrow evening and post Sunday.

Got it........

0-50AD
Iron won't get from the island to the mainland without harbors on both sides, so start harbors on the mainland and both islands.

1-70AD
Lower the lux tax and hire citizens producing too much food as clowns, scientists or taxmen withoug changing build completion times. Once everyone has settled into their new assignments net income rises 6gpt.

Mishandle the crippled galley and it sinks. Income goes up by 2gpt.

2-90AD
Discover the Byzantines have muskets in the garrisons.

Open an embassy with Carthage. Hannibal will sell wine for 10gpt, but the hooch is only worth 8gpt right now, so will let it pass until the markets get built.

3-110AD
With the market at Istanbul close the wines deal with Hannibal for 10gpt. It lets me put one citizen back to productive work but that's all.

China has now learned Invention.

Portugal declares war on Carthage.

4-130
Drop worker off on iron mountain.

5-150
Swampin'

6-170
More swampin'

Portugal builds Leo's Workshop.

7-10 170-250AD
Not much to report. Spears building in Bursa and Istanbul at 10-spt in each. Some jungle has been cleared. and mined. Spent a lot of time fiddling citizen assignments to keep production and income as high as possible.

A galley has dropped two more workers off on the iron mountain. They need orders. Aother galley is cruisin' the Carthage coast trying to figure out what the Portugee thinks he is up to, or what his progress maght be.

Our happiness problems are now coming from the island cities which are not connected to the luxuries we have. Harbors are building in all of them.

Hannibal is now gracious, by the way but we can't make gpt deals with him and he refers to our dealings with China. As do Theodora and Henry. Only Wang Kon will consider gpt as he doesn't know Mao yet.

Over to you, Justus!

Team 2.1
Justus II<-UP
grahamiam
microbe
gozpel <-requested leave
Bede <- played

Good turns, Brother Bede. Got it, but won't be able to play until tomorrow. Too bad about the rep, I thought we would still be able to trade, but that's a risk we took. I'll keep my eye out for trade options with Korea, maybe we can still broker something along the way. Also, if any of the others declares war on China, they should accept gpt again. I look forward to completing our harbors and connecting our empire!

Looking over the save, I see the concern about our unit support costs, currently we're paying 64gpt. But I don't really see any expendable units, except for a few reg warriors on East Island, which I'd like to replace with spears, at least. We are still considered weak compared to everyone but the Byz, so we can't afford to disband units, and we certainly need our workers. The only other option is growth, so I am going to focus on getting more towns into cities for better unit support, and maybe build another one or two.

The tech situation isn't any more hopeful. Everyone else has at least Invention, and based on the numerous Musket sightings, Gunpowder must be pretty common as well. Our only chance for a 2-fer is on Monotheism, which China and Korea lack. Of course, with our tarnished reputation, buying Monotheism won't be easy, in fact I can't get past doubtful right now. Our best bet would be for Korea to get it before China, as they will still take our credit. I do notice Carthage has Spices for sale, at 11gpt. We can drop lux to 20%, saving 16gpt, so it's a net gain of 5gpt, I make the deal. We might even be able to drop it further once the markets finish.

About the only good news is the Wonder cascade is dead, but the bad news is that's because the AI built them all already. :( Lisbon in particular is loaded with 4, including the Great Library, that would be a nice grab about now. (But not very realistic...) In fact, Lisbon is already in the running for a 20K city, if it gets that far, they are at 1472 culture. That happens to be almost triple our whole civilization. Looking around, most of our border cities have no culture at all, that's just asking for flips, which we can ill afford. I think I've discovered another priority for this reign.

Other than the Spice deal, and some MM to speed up a couple builds, there's not much to do, so I hit enter.
IBT: Istanbul-Spear>Temple, Bursa-spear>duct, Uskadar-Library>settler, Sinkope riots and gets a taxman.

260 (1): Not much, move some workers to mine grass, clear jungle. At the Iron city, the current worker will complete the road next turn anyway, so the other two move to chop a forest and hurry the harbor along.

270 (2): Iron road is complete, that worker moves to chop another forest. No point in rushing the harbor yet, let our mainland harbor complete, and the forest chops to reduce the cost.
IBT: Edrine-market>library, Konya-harbor>duct.

280 (3): Not much, send a galley back toward Byz waters to start exploring again, shift a spear to East island.

290 (4): OK, the opportunity we've been waiting for! Korea has Monotheism, and China doesn't. Korea takes our Ottoman Express card for 30gpt, and we get Monotheism, but China says that and our 280g cash isn't even close to Invention. :eek: So much for our 2-fer chance. We don't really have much more gpt to offer, anyway, even if they did take our credit, so this may have been a bad deal, but at least we can see a little further into the AI's lead. Portugal and Byz are up Chivalry and Theology, Carthage has just Chivalry. We are just too far down to broker our way out of this one, I think.
IBT: Istanbul-temple>library.

300 (5): China has Monotheism now anyway. Lisbon is at 1617 culture, gaining 29cpt.
IBT: Iznik-market>duct. Byz and Port start Sistine's.

310 (6): Forest chops are done, so I pay 72g to rush the harbor at Salonika.
IBT: Salonika-harbor>library (I'd hate to have our iron flip away!).

320 (7): Nothing much, more worker moves.
IBT: Istanbul-library>pike, Aydin-Market>library.

330 (8): Nothing.

340 (9): Nothing else, except Theo asks our galley to leave. Finally brought our budget back in balance.
IBT: Istanbul-pike>pike, Edrine-library>MDI, Antalya-market>library.

350 (10): Did the worker moves, the Sultana is docked off of Uskadar, most garrisons unmoved.

Those last 3 builds are obviously open for change, as nothing has accumulated yet. Also, Bursa will finish the duct this turn, and should be MM for population growth for a while, but will be available for military production.

At this point, we probably need to discuss our next direction. I don't see any brokering opportunities in our future, so if we're going to climb out of this tech hole, we'll have to use the pointy stick. Unfortunately, we're still weak compared to our neighbors, but now that we have Iron, we could start building some kind of offensive force, mostly MDI's and some trebs. Without being able to upgrade, it's going to be a more gradual buildup, but Istanbul is at 15spt, and can build enough pikes to beef our defenses, which will free our obsolete warriors and archers to be fodder at the front.

China is probably the easier target, although they have less tech to get, they also don't have muskets yet, and would give us some much-needed expansion room. Even if we could get just 3-4 cities, and Invention, we could get back in this game, I think. They do have Chivalry, but no horses, so we would be on an even basis, unit-wise. Anyway, it's something that will take a couple rounds of concerted effort, but I think it's our best chance to break out of this stagnation.

A couple final notes, the harbor at Kafa will finish in 2 turns, connecting the Eastern island to our luxuries, and then our tax/clown/scientist can be put back to work. I put the scientist on Theology, figuring our priority now would be to somehow get Invention, so we can take our time on the upper branch. Also Uskadar is working on a settler, due in 5. I had intended to use him to settle on a border jungle spot NW of Istanbul. This would poach a few tiles from Carthage, including a mined hill on the river, and share a first-ring tile with a city, but would also be first-ring to our capital, and with a quick library might only be a minimal flip risk. It would definitely be a productive location. Otherwise, there's not too many spots left, or it could be saved to resettle any cities that get razed in any upcoming wars... ;)

Here's our Republic, with the proposed city site marked in red:

Justus II < - Just played
grahamiam < - Up Now
microbe < - Might get to use the pointy stick!
gozpel < - Still on leave?
Bede

And the save:

ok, looks like I can't play till tomorrow night (Wed.) so any input is welcome.

what is the situation with carthage? i'm thinking that we could quickly take the horse town on our eastern island, as well as pop a couple of towns to the north. then build knights like crazy, trying to weather the storm. of course, if they have a bunch of knights then maybe that's impossible, but at some point we will have to take those horses because we will never be able to buy them.

Carthage has Chivalry+Iron+Horses, so I assume they have knights. I also believe they have Muskets, I thought I saw one moving during an IBT, but didn't have visibility of a garrison to confirm. At the least, they will have NuMercs everywhere, whereas China still has plenty of Spear defenders. That was why I suggested China. I agree we will need those horses, but we don't have Chivalry anyway, and aren't likely to get it soon, so I don't see a rush. After we expand a bit against our weaker neighbor, we might be in a better position to make a grab for the horses timed to coincide with Military Tradition.

Another option, if we do go to war with China, would be to try and get one of the other powers to declare on them as well, which should then allow us to use credit again with that power. Just a thought!

well, that's the kind of idea's i come up with before the 1st cup of coffee :lol: looks like carthage is out of reach till MT and i get to play setup man :)

Preflight check: take a look around. Change Istanbul to MDI (if we’re gonna get offensive, we should do it sooner rather than later). Bursa will build pikes at the same rate Istanbul builds MDI’s. Bahh, on second thought, I will build a pike or 2 then spit out Trebs with Istanbul. Other cities will build the MDI’s.
Note that we have a Chinese Swordsman fortified next to our iron city. I will have to get an archer or 2 down there to help clear him out in case of war. Move the Sultana down to Konya to get ready to transport 2 units.

IBT: Bursa aqueduct -> MDI

T1: 360AD I test Portugal and Carthage to see if they’d entertain an alliance vs the other but both refuse outright.

IBT: Istanbul pike -> pike; Kafa harbor-> market

T2: 370AD Pike goes to Antalya; archer from Antalya goes to Konya. Yikes, Korea is up Chivalry, Invention, and Theology

IBT: Carthage and Portugal sign peace. Portugese building Sistine’s and Copernicus

T3: 380AD move some workers. Roading the mountain near Istanbul to gain some gpt.

IBT: Carthage wants to renegotiate wine deal. Instead of 10gpt, he now wants 5gpt + 149g. I do the deal just as some extra insurance to keep them from invading again before we’re ready.

IBT: Istanbul pike -> pike; Carthage building Sistine’s; 3 Carthage galleys move in between Uskudar and Kafa

T4: 390AD Move some workers around

IBT: Edrine MDI -> MDI; Bursa MDI -> MDI; Uskadar settler -> archer; Koreans are building Sistine’s

T5: 400AD I note that we could gain 20gpt by lowering the lux slider to 10%, however, Istanbul and Edrine will riot. Funny thing is, Edrine and Bursa have the same improvements and the same happy faces but Edrine gets 1 more unhappy face when lux slider moves down. Galley with 2 archers goes towards Salonika.

This is really frustrating right now. Can’t research, can’t trade, can’t steal.

IBT: Istanbul pike -> treb; Aydin Library -> MDI

T6: 410AD just move workers around. Clearing marsh near Bursa.

T7: 420AD Mugla founded on the proposed site.-> library (don’t want it to flip); looks like a Dromon is interested in cutting our Eastern Island in half. Block him with a warrior.
With the hill, Bursa is doing 13spt. Need another forest to get it up to 14spt (MDI every 3T)

IBT: Istanbul treb -> treb; Antalya Library -> barracks

T8: 430AD Well isn’t that special, the cleared marsh near Bursa reveals a BG. Just what that town needed. It is mined and we can now do 14spt. Edrine now works a mined desert to do 8spt (MDI still in 5T but no waste and Antalya gets another irrigated plain.
Archers land in Salonika and 1 forest chop finishes.

IBT: Bursa MDI -> MDI; Ankara harbor -> library

T9: 440AD Fire the taxman in Ankara so we cut the library build time in half. This causes us to go back into the negative gpt. I seriously consider merging 1 worker to Edrine but decide instead to send him up to Mugla to clear the jungle.

IBT: Istanbul treb -> treb; Sinop harbor -> pike

T10: 450AD Move some workers again.

I have 2 workers within range of the jungle chop near Mulga and the towns of Antalya and Edrine. If we merge both into Edrine we could do 10spt right away, provided that 1 of them doesn't become a belly dancer.

The trade situation is hopeless.

China seems to still have pikes and spears protecting their cities so we should be able to do some damage. Just hope we’re ready before they start upgrading to muskets.

I'm foresting and choping around our irontown to hurry the library along. If you see a road without a forest, that means I chopped that tile.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/bugs21-450AD.JPG

Roster update:
Justus II
grahamiam < - Just played
microbe < - Up
gozpel < - Might get to use the pointy stick if he can bag RL for a night ;)
Bede

I'll play this tomorrow night.

Good turns, Grahamiam, on getting the Pointy Stick started! If you build it, they will use it... ;)
One thing I thought I mentioned, but I may have missed, I had chopped the forests near the Iron city (Salonika) during my turns, to speed the harbor, and then replanted. I'm sorry if you rechopped the two tiles I replanted, if they have a road, it's been replanted. Once the borders expand, though, I think there are some other forests available to chop.

no problem, only cost us 1 chop and with the reduced length of time to do it, i think it cost us 2T. i was planting new forests on the tundra and then choping to move that library along. we definitely can't afford to have that town flip.

I played one turn and already violated two rules. :lol:

I traded our only iron to Portugal for 90gpt (and buy from Carthage with half the price) and upgraded one spear.

I could replay, but I just don't know what to do now. I was deadly wrong - the variant rules are just restricting almost every move. :sad:

Our economy sucks. We are making -2gpt and things will only get worse. Carthage now asks more for the spices deal as well. We need to disband more units and merge more workers.

Economy aside, I think instead of China we should get to Carthage first.

1. China has riders
2. we cannot get a resource by the war against China
3. there are 3 Chinese cities around on the land of our iron city and we probably will lose it.

I'll pause for a while as my day has been ruined by the damn rules.

you saw chinese riders? i didn't see one the whole time. i though they were down horses?
wow, this game is really tight now. iirc, the advisor indicated that carthage had knights and muskets, right? china's best unit was MDI.

ideas (not necessarily listed best to worst :) )
1. maybe we should revolt to monarchy to get rid of the unit upkeep costs and get more free units. can't be worse than what we have now. we would have to wait for at least 4 more turns till the 30gpt deal expires.
2. crash into china in 10-20T with everything we have. thier iron source is near Beijing so that would be the objective.
3. play nice till MT or just before MT. we have a 30gpt deal due to expire during your turns. disband useless warriors to free up the upkeep costs.

i agree this game has gone desperate and i'm not entirely sure how it'll end up. but then again, that was the challenge to this game :)

Maybe you are right. I forget if they have horses or not.

I'll get to this tomorrow. In the mean time discussion is welcomed. IMO we have to attack now, and I'd rather die in the field. :)

Not sure about revolting to Monarchy though..

We would have done much better if we had not been forced to disband a granary early in the game.

At least on my turn, I had checked, and China does not have horses, and (until Astronomy anyway) shouldn't be able to trade for any. I agree that taking their Iron source is probably a good objective, would make a safer source than our current one, and then give us the option to trade.

If you've only played one turn, I'd probably replay the turn, one upgrade is no big deal, but the Iron deal is a long-term thing, as well as quite risky. If we lose our Iron source, our rep is broken worse than it is now, and if Carthage attacks, we lose our own iron right when we need it most.

I'm not sure whether Monarchy is worth the cost of the anarchy, as even though it increases our unit support, we lose the trade benefit, we may not come out that far ahead. I would definitely hold off until the current trade deals expire, then see what our economy looks like, I would also prefer to wait until we have our offensive force ready to attack, then maybe revolt at the beginning of the war.

Concur. I would not hurry into war.

How far are we from MT? If China lacks horses, though, hitting them with a dozen or so footsloggers and and a couple of trebs (more like 18, so that we can take the near island), one battle group west to the coast then south, second group south, third group on the near island, defenders only on the other island).

We are a LONG way from MT, we don't even have Invention yet. That should be one of the objectives for hitting China, as we have no way of getting tech otherwise. And I wouldn't be in too much hurry to switch governments either, our war with China might be just what we need to bring unit costs back in line, we can sacrifice, er send our brave warriors and archers to fight gloriously against China, reducing our support cost, while at the same time we will be adding cities, to increase our free unit support. Obsolete units are great for pillaging missions and catpuring workers, which will be key since we can't purchase/trade for any (no workers in the peace deal either, remember). On the peace deal, try to keep our GPT free after current deals expire, as the peace table is our best chance to use credit for techs, and we'll want to have as much gross income available as possible to get the best deal we can.

one good thing we are doing is building units fast. we can build, in 10T, approximately 7~10 MDI's and 5 Treb's. This will pretty much eat up the boost we get from the Korean trade ending but we should be ok to start a war soon. if we can get Beijing and the extra iron, we could then legally pull off that trade to Portugal and start living in the black again.

preturn: Now I really feel the restriction of this variant. I could sell our ONLY iron to Portugal for 90gpt, then we could upgrade one warrior to MDI every turn, but in this game we are not allowed to!

The goal is to produce more military and go after China in about 10 turns, at the same time recover from the economical crisis.

I disband a warrior.

I renew spices deal with Carthage and pay 13gpt+5g to avoid being caught in a surprise. We are making -2gpt.

I disband another warrior in Salonika. By the way I don't understand why we are building library in it. We need walls.

IBT Edrine MDI->MDI. Iznik Aqueduct->treb.

(1)460AD: I disband one of our galleys.

IBT Istanbul treb->pike. Bursa MDI->MDI.

(2)470AD:

IBT Byzantines start Copernicus.

(3)480AD: merge a worker. We are making +7gpt despite some units being built.

IBT China demands 21g. I cave.

(4)490AD: We got some payment back and make +35gpt.

(5)500AD: ZZZ

(6)510AD: I merge two workers.

IBT Carthage starts Copernicus. Portugal starts Magellans.

(7)520AD: hire scientist in Istanbul to still get MDI in 3 turns, so Ankara can grow faster, but will switch back next turn.

IBT Portugal demands TM+13g, I cave.

(8)530AD: I rush library in Salonika by 28g.

(9)540AD: Korea has horses. We can buy it with 12gpt+4g, mainly as a denial to China. But I'll leave to next leader.

(10)550AD:

We have 10 MDIs, 5 pikes and 15 spears.

We should rush a wall in Salonika before declaring. I reinforced a pike to it. We should send another one pike and maybe a couple spears as well. 2 pikes + walls should hold better. We cannot afford to lose that city.

I think we should play defensively in the western side and aim to capture/raze Xinjian and Chengdu. I'd like to raze them but then we need two settlers. For each city we need at least 5 MDIs (and some trebs).

Note once we declare we'll lose our iron unless we build a harbor in the eastern island.

Good buildup. The library at Salonika was to prevent a flip, but I agree, walls are needed too.

Note once we declare we'll lose our iron unless we build a harbor in the eastern island.

I thought we had harbors on each island already? I'm sure we do. Now the Chinese cultural boundaries may temporarily block our trade route, but once we take a couple cities, that should open things back up.

Ugh, me warring with slow units? Everyone that knows me understand I can't fight a war with one-step troops :)

But I'll give it a try. I got it.

Pre-turn - No way I can start a war reasonably early here with a handfull of units.

560AD - Istanbul Pike -> pike
Edrine MI -> MI
Bursa MI -> MI

570AD - Civs are building Magellans, this looks fun :)

580AD - Istanbul pike -> MI
Iznik trebuchet -> trebuchet

590AD - Our wine-deal with Cartage is over and I renew it for 192g and 1gpt.

Bursa MI -> MI

600AD - Sinop pike -> library

610AD - Istanbul MI -> MI
Edrine MI -> MI
Aydin MI -> MI
Antalya trebuchet -> trebuchet

620AD - IT - Portugal completes Copernicus and start Newtons.

Bursa MI -> MI
Iznik trebuchet -> barracks
Mugla library -> barracks

I declare on Chinese and move in troops next to Canton and Xinjian

630AD - IT - We lose a pike and kill 2 MI's

We lose 2 MI's right away attacking Xinjian, then we kill 3 pikes and 2 MI's and take the city.

Canton has a vet musket and 2 treb's take off 2 hp's.

3 straight MI wins for us, killing 2 pikes and the musket and we take the city. 2 of the MI's promotes to elite.

Now we have to play the defensive guy for a few turns, to not waste units. OUR units that is! :)

640AD - The good news now is that we lost our iron, so we better use the units wisely.

650AD - IT - We defend well and kill 3 chinese units.

I moves some troops to Chengdu, we can't take it yet but bombard the city to pieces.

Next player can choose to move troops towards Tsingtao as well.

I put us in the boiling pot now, hope we will live long enough to enjoy it :)

Sounds like a good start to the war! You mentioned we lost our Iron, did we lose the city, or just the trade route getting cut by Chinese culture? You didn't mention them attacking the city. It does look like they have Gunpowder after all, that would be good to get in peace deal, if we can somehow swing Invention first from someone else. Speaking of, you mentioned buying the wine for 192g and 1gpt, I'd try to keep all lux deals as much gpt as possible, and save our cash for tech, we can use gpt for lux but not tech, we need to save our hard cash for that.

I am worried about flip. These cities should be starving and producing workers..agree with Justus about the gpt.

Yes, I didn't think there about the gpt deal...we we're down to 20 something gpt with all the new units coming in and choosed wrongly. 9-10 gpt was a bit steep and there was no deals even "doubtful" with what we had.

We lost the iron due to the declaring and we still have the city, they attacked with a couple of units and lost and our pike there went elite.

Playing very early in the morning can make the choices rather whacky :)

I think if we can take another city or two, we will be able to get something for peace.

well, this game has a lot of "gotch-ya's" :lol: if we use our gpt for lux, then we can't save hard cash for tech's but if we use our hard cash for lux, then we can't buy a tech :twitch:

capture Hangchow and our iron should come back online. build whatever we can till then. should we take peace then or can we keep going for the chinese iron? if we get thier iron, we should be able to do that deal that microbe tried with the Portugese. risky but we probably need to take a leap right now or we're going to get into an even deeper hole.

I'd say yes, go for it if we can afford the losses, this may be our best chance to strike. Who's up next, BTW? Should be an interesting set of turns!

right, forgetting my duties :)

grahamiam
microbe
gozpel < - just played
Bede < - Up Now
Justus II < - on deck

Bede's turn in the barrel.

Got it. Will play tomorrow.

Try to post plan later tonight.

Playing now.

0-650
China won't talk and Invention is out of our reach unless we threaten war.

We can trade maps aorund with everybody, so Printing Press is known by all. I can buy a map from Korea for ~110g and hope to sell it forward, or I can wait. Decide the intelligence is worth something so go ahead and do the deal. Net back about 1/3 of what was spent but at least we know more than we did, not sure it helps though.

Taking control of China's iron means taking their capital....

Start the move towards Tsingtao with garrison units. There is no good terrain between our border and Tsingtao so any counter is going to hurt.

Start the assault at Chengdu adn the trebs destroy the temple, barracks and library, without scratching the defense. Foritfy and wait.

Portugal declares war on Carthage.

Our Spice supply dries up and Hannibal wants 15gpt to renew or 200g and 5gpt. Take the 15gpt deal.

1-660
Move into position at Tsingtao.

Bombard Chengdu again then lose an MDI promoting a Chinese musket to vet.

Mao will chat but offers nothing but chai.

2-670
Treb operators at Chengdu need an oculist. MDI attacks and kills promoted musket. Second MDI attacks and we take the city but we will have to take Hangchow to get our iron back.

Treb operators at Tstingtao wound a musket and a vet MDI kills a fresh one leaving only the wounded one at the battlements. An elite MDI fails to kill him, but the follow on MDI succeeds in taking the city.

We can get Invention and Peace from Mao for 70g or Theology for nothing. Given I have seen no counterattack from Mao it is on to Hangchow and Beijing.

3-680
Moving troops.

4-690
First Chinese military show up on the road out of Beijing, a single elite MDI Trebs bombard himdown to a shadow of his former self and an elite MDI bolts out his light.

With Hannibal in the deep weeds with Henry and since we are paying him a fair chunk of change already pay him a visit and threaten war if he won't sell Invention for 275g and 20gpt. He agrees, albeit relunctantly.

Mao will give up gunpowder for an additional 2gpt...let's finish of Habgchow and see what the offer will be

5-700
Advancing on Hangchow which shows a regular pike in the garrison and moving closer to Beijing. China drops off a single MDI at Tsingtao.

6-710
Kill the MDI at Tsingtao with two archers. Advance on Beijing shows a veteran pike in the garrison.

7-720
Hangchow collapses into our hands like a folding fan.

8-730
Beijing is a little tougher and costs an MDI but falls and we now control the Great Wall and the Pyramids. To get the iron we will have to take Shanghai. We still don't have iron as the Chinese town of Shantung controls the coastal squares between the island and the mainland.

Portugese take Sulcis on the east island and land on Carthage's homeland. Portugal and China sign a trad embargo against us.

9-740
Start the march on Shnaghai and the Sultana starts a troop shuttle to Salonika

Portugese take Izmit, then lose most of their invasion force to a Punic counter attack.

10-750
Setting up for Shanghai. Realize we have missed an opporunity to boost the production of Istanbul. There are some one shield grasslands that would do well with trees and the city is very long food.

We will have to take Shangahi for the iron but that also gets us some more silks for trading use. Also shuttle some troops ove rot Iron Island and take out the Chinese towns over there. Their cultural control is costing us the use of our iron. Salonika is buiding a temple as I don;t want to lose the iron to cultural pressure from Luanda. Bursa is also working a library to put some pressure on Izmit.

I can't remember ever seeing such a timid opponent before. China made three halfhearted attempts to counter attack, then just curled up and died. There may not be enough force to take Shanghai on first arival, It may take a couple rounds of stone slinging and rock skipping but it will fall. The island towns should also be equally easy prey.

This was ten turns of move, throw rocks, attack, then move again without hardly a breath in between.

Mao will talk and will give up one or tech techs pretty cheap, but I wanted the iron and silks for the trading and I think we can get them both.

Justus II <= up
grahamiam <=on deck
microbe
gozpel
Bede

It's great play bede! :goodjob:

I think China hurt a lot from the war with Carthage. It doesn't look so grim now. :)

An excellent reign, Sultan Bede! Not only have you marched a path through the Infidel Chinese, but getting Invention from Hannibal through your Power Persuasion techniques was just what we needed to get the most out of this war! I agree with pushing on to secure the iron and extra silks, looking forward to pushing our war to a successful conclusion. Should be able to play tonight.

Had a chance to look around the save a bit, couple observations. First, maybe it was mentioned already, but our three rivals on the other continent have a decidedly Industrial look already! We've still got a ways to go. Looks like our scientist will finally nab Theology in 4 turns, so I will stay at war at least that long, to see what other tech possibilities it opens for us. Looking at the map, I think we can clear China from the last two cities on our continent, and the little ones on Iron island, and that should be a wrap. Then time to incorporate all those cities (and a couple new ones) into our empire and head for Mil Tradition. Still gonna need horses for that, but that'll be someone else's war. ;)

excellent set bede! :thumbsup: :hammer:

OK, I haven't had a chance to play yet, but I did have some time to work with my second-favorite software program, Excel. ;)

We had some discussion earlier about whether it would be worth it to revolt over to Monarchy, to reduce our (admittedly) expensive unit support costs. So, while I had some time to kill prior to playing (i.e., at work) I ran a comparison.

I made a couple assumptions to make the estimates a little easier to work with, but the city and pop info is straight from the 750AD save. The Citizen count only includes those actually working tiles, so does not include the 15+ resisting Chinese, or the dozen or so assorted clowns, taxmen, and scientist. The assumption is that every citizen working a tile equates to one bonus trade, which with our well-developed terrain is a pretty safe bet. There may be a few unimproved tiles remaining, but on the other hand, I'm not taking into account the multiplication of the bonus trade by our marketplaces, so it should actually be higher than reflected.

I did not account for any difference in corruption levels, which would slightly favor Republic. I did reduce the estimated Republic trade bonus by the current corruption rate, to make it more accurate. I also did not attempt to account for War Weariness, because it is a temporary factor. As you can see, even with our large-quantity military, we are still better off in Republic, and the comparison will be even more favorable once we conclude the war and put those resisting citizens back to work. Also, now that we have the Pyramids, we should be able to boost several more towns into City status, further increasing our free support. :)

Why the support cost is also 2gpt per unit for Monarchy?

Another advantage of Monarchy is it has MP so we probably can lower lux.

Not saying we need to go Monarchy though. It indeed isn't my favorite gov.

No, unit support is 1 per unit for all govenments except Republic (2) and Feudalism (3). The MP factor is a good point, I overlooked that. If we assume that to be equal to a 10% change in the Lux slider, that's currently worth 25gpt, so it becomes more of a wash. It probably wouldn't work out quite that neatly, but it would put us in the ballpark. As we continue to grow, however, I still think Republic is our best bet for the long term, and certainly can't see Monarchy overcoming the costs of the anarchy period.

Pre-Turn: Not much I can change, although I do use the Wealth exception in the variant rules to change production at a couple of resisting Chinese cities, switching Hangchow from spear to a Galley and Beijing from worker to settler, using wealth to reset shields to 1. Salonika hasn’t put any shields toward it’s temple yet, so I swap it to a worker. Load a couple MDI onto the Sultana for next turn’s shuttle run.
IBT: China lands a longbow near Salonika. Tsingtao-work>work, Byz complete Magellans. Um, yeah, we’re a little behind.

760AD (1): Battle for Shanghai-Trebs go 2/4, I lose an MDI killing 2 reg pikes and it’s ours. And one of our regular warriors kills the longbow!
IBT: Hangchow riots as some resisters are suppressed, Konya-settler>galley.

770AD (2): Battle for Shangtung-Lose a longbow redlining a reg musket, but elite MDI finishes him, lose another longbow vs. a spear, but a vet MDI promotes to kill him, and the city is ours.
IBT: Finally see a Chinese rider land on Iron island, where are they getting horses from? Edrine-galley-pike, Bursa-Library>pike.

780AD (3): North of Shangtung-Treb and MDI kill the rider. N of Tsingtao, another Treb and MDI kill an archer that came out of Carthage’s lands. Settler from Konya founds Denizli on the coast SE of Aydin.
Battle of Nanking: Trebs go 2/4 wounding a Rider and a spear. MDI kills a fresh reg spear, an elite goes after the wounded Rider and Orhan appears! [dance] (About time, we needed that!). Another MDI finishes off the last spear to take the city. Orhan moves back to Shanghai and forms an army, but I’m not going to fill it yet. It’s tempting to use it and grab a quick victory, so we can build the Epic, but having an empty army available when we finally get Sipahi is definitely worth the wait!

780AD (Continued) Time to renew our Wine deal with Carthage. They must have been buying their silks from China, but now we have them, so I can renew the Wines deal for Silks and 7gpt+8g, vs. 23gpt without the silks. We are lucking out in the trade arena, as Korea, which has Furs available, is also in the market for Silk, and we are able to trade them Silk for Furs straight up. This lets us drop the lux tax, saving 25gpt.
IBT: Our lone scientist on Theology finally pays off! Iznik-Galley>temple, Korea completes Newtons.

790AD (4): Hmm, I could get Gunpowder and Education for peace, and a discount on Chivalry, but that’s optional (especially without horses), and we can’t afford detours. Besides, I really want to take Chinan, it’s a big cultural blot in the middle of our island holdings. Taking a lesson from my predecessor, I see that our military is average compared to the Byzantines, so I make Theo an offer she can’t refuse, and buy Education for 30gpt. This lets me see that China has the next level of techs, and we could get Astronomy along with Gunpowder, but I still wait until we can position for Chinan. Otherwise, just some MM and keeping our Chinese cities patrolled and on a STRICT diet.
IBT: Istanbul-Cathedral>University, Aydin-Lbow>duct.

800AD (5): 3 trebs redline a privateer on our coast, so that our vet galley can sink anyway, promoting the privateer. :(
IBT: Bursa-Pike>University (I think we will be doing our own research soon). China starts Bachs, good to see they’re not letting the war interfere with their wonder program!

810AD (6): Archer kills an archer near Salonika.
IBT: Ankara-Lbow>Courthouse, Byz start Shakespeare.

820AD (7): Battle for Chinan: Trebs go 2/3, wounding 2 reg muskets. Lose a longbow on the first, but an Elite MDI finishes him, lose another MDI wounding but promoting the second, but another elite MDI kills him, and we get the city, with rax and harbor intact! OK, now it’s time to talk peace. We get Gunpowder, Astronomy, and Banking for 37gpt.

Good news, we have Saltpeter just outside Istanbul. There’s another source next to Ningpo, just south of Salonika, I knew I should have gone after that city. Unfortunately, China is our only possible customer for our extra Iron, Portugal got some somewhere, but they don’t have any harbors on their new capital island, so trade is out. Re-Manage our cities with the end of War Weariness, will have to adjust again next turn when the resistance starts ending.
IBT: Carthage and Portugal make peace, too bad, I’ve kind of enjoyed watching them throw cav and muskets at each other near Izmit.

830AD (8): Lots-O-MM’ing going on, starving some cities, rush a settler at Beijing.
IBT: Beijing-Settler>Library, Shangtung-Work>harbor, Mulga-Market>settler. (There’s a horse on an island north of Carthage, which Portugal razed before my turns started, but haven’t resettled yet, so it might be worth a gamble to send a settler up there to grab it, now that we have Astronomy).

840AD (9): More MM, redistribute our troops. I disband a few regular warriors and spears, but keep all vets.
IBT: Uh oh, this doesn’t look good. Portugal lands a Rifle, Cav, and Crusader next to Kafa on the NE island! I smell a sneak attack. Tsingtao-work>library, Xinjin-Library>harbor, Sinop-Library>Wall?, Salonika-work>temple. Korea and Portugal start Shakes.

850AD (10): I found Bolu South of Canton. I shuttle what few troops can reach to Kafa, we at least have 3 defenders, but it’s 2 spears and a warrior. :( I also move some troops from the south side of the island, and intentionally leave a warrior in reach of his cav, maybe it will be a diversion? The Sultana is a couple turns away, but I rushed a Caravel on the coast, and there are a couple MDI and a pike in the harbor, so if we can hold out for a turn, we may be OK.

OK, I fully expect them to attack, there’s no other reason for them to land there. The bright side (always look for the bright side) is once we deal with this incursion, we will have the perfect opportunity to take Sulcis (which the Portuguese took from Carthage) on the opposite end of the island, giving us our horses! We can also easily retake Izmit, as there are several MDI and trebs moving up from the south. Beware there is another Port city across the mountains from Salonika, which has only one defender, but luckily the AI doesn’t coordinate attacks well. We should be able to shift defenders around to react.

Taking Sulcis, Izmit, and maybe that other island city should force them to peace, giving us another opportunity to get a tech. I started up research, using some starving Chinese scientists and 10-20% science, and we can easily get Chemistry in less than 20 turns. In fact, once some GPT frees up, we can probably get it in 10 or so, which may work out to being able to then negotiate for Metallurgy from Henry.

A couple other notes, our Spice deal is up with Carthage, we need to renegotiate this turn. Currently paying 15gpt, based on the last round of lux deals, it may go up to 20-25, but worth it, as every 10% lux is 25-30 gpt. Second, Orhan’s Army is still empty, fortified near Istanbul. I had wanted to save it for Sipahi, but that’s up to the next leaders. With this new war looming, it may be worth filling it with MDI to take Izmit, then Istanbul can build the Epic etc. Downside of course is the slower MDI, and, with only Caravels, if we do fill it, it’ll be trapped on our continent until we get Galleons. But most likely we would next use it against Carthage anyway, so either way is probably fine.

Justus II <= Just played
grahamiam <=Up now
microbe <=on deck
gozpel
Bede

The Save:

No, unit support is 1 per unit for all govenments except Republic (2) and Feudalism (3).

Yes, but in your data sheet you have 24 excessive units for monarchy and the cost is 48. Maybe I overlooked something but you seem to have used 2gpt to calculate Monarchy unit support.

There are some excellent turns before me, and I hope I can play up to the same level. :)

I haven't looked at the save yet, but is there a way to do a gpt deal from Portugal before they declare?

I'll play this tomorrow night. I just spent two whole days trying to find a good deal for a trip to Hawaii, and I'm tired.

Yes, but in your data sheet you have 24 excessive units for monarchy and the cost is 48. Maybe I overlooked something but you seem to have used 2gpt to calculate Monarchy unit support.

My fault, copied a formula too exactly... :blush:
Yes, unit support in Monarchy is 1 per, and I was using 2. So, based on the 750AD data, it was a break-even at best, and after accounting for the potential reduction in lux rate for MPs, we might have been paying about 25gpt extra in Republic. I just ran the numbers again, using data from the end of my turns (850AD) and with 65 units, we are currently paying 56gpt for support, vs only 3gpt under Monarchy. But our population is now up to 119, so our trade bonus is more substantial, and we are coming out ahead 24gpt. MPs are again not factored in, but we are already down to 10% lux, so I'm not sure how much they would offset. Certainly all of this shows that Republic is very competitive with Monarchy, even for our Quantity vs. Quality military!

I haven't looked at the save yet, but is there a way to do a gpt deal from Portugal before they declare?
Not that I could see, they won't accept gpt from us, (unless we go to the peace table, and they are the one power who's military we are weak against). Ironically, they're the only nation we don't already have a current deal with.

I'll play this tomorrow night. I just spent two whole days trying to find a good deal for a trip to Hawaii, and I'm tired.

Don't do that! Grahamiam is up next, you are on deck to play after him. Although, if you're offering a trip to Hawaii, he might agree to a swap! :lol:

Damn, I'm happy to wait. Forgive my mistake, I said I am tired. :)

very nice set Justus! i will play tonight so we'll see how this Portugese war works out. Hopefully, it'll be a quickie and we get the horse town :)

oh, and btw, i will gladly swap for a trip to Hawaii :D haven't been there since my honeymoon in '99.

Our lands looks so much better :)

Who started this mongering?

Preflight check: well, Henry looks like he’s coming to get some. Look over the landscape and it looks like Justus had in mind what to do. The real thing that troubles me is what is in Izmit. If they have 3 cav’s they could take Uskudar, Iznk, and take a real shot at Mugla. I rotate troops to cover the 2 undefended cities and hope for the best.

Hurry the Temple in Iznik so I can build another ship or unit next turn. I’m going to fill the Army with MDI if it seems to be required.

IBT: Privateer sinks out Galley near Chengdu, Portugese declare war on us. 2 Spears die in that city but we redlined the Crusader and took 1hp off the cav. 2 more Portugese Galleys appear off our NE coast. We renew our spice deal with Carthage for 22gpt
Istanbul: Univ ->MDI; Endrine musket ->MDI; Iznik temple ->MDI; Konya caravel ->caravel

T1: 860AD A Portugese Privateer is sitting in the gulf between our mainland and our island. No way that Caravel will survive so I move it up to Iznik and move the MDI in Konya up north as well. Rotate reg pike in Sino up to Kafa, losing a hp in the process. Also run the vet warrior up there. This will give us more units that they have to attack with. Science & tax starve our corrupt Chinese holdings.

IBT: Portuguese cavalry attacks Sinop, killing a warrior but we hold. Port drops off 2 more cav on our eastern island. Our Galley defends against 1 privateer but is killed by a second. No mainland landings.
Portuguese complete Bach’s.

T2: 870AD Damn, a privateer is blocking the way to Kafa! Bombard him down to 1hp. A decide to take a big, big risk as I currently see no way to hold our Eastern Island unless I do this. I load the army and 2 MDI’s onto the caravel. Caravel attacks the redlined privateer and wins (3/4) and