Our previous 5CC was a great success. We were able to get rid of the other tribes after a very difficult start. But we agreed that the lethal bombers were too powerful. This -believe it or not- made the end a bit too easy. That is why we are going to up the difficulty:

-No bombers
-No armies
-A civ without a relatively normal UU (unlike the Sipahi of the Ottomans)

Map: standard, pangaea, 70% water, random conditions
Civ: to be discussed
Opponents: 7 random, normal aggression, sedentary barbs
Victory conditions: all enabled, our aim is conquest. Respawn and culture-linked starts are off.

Our definition of a 5CC is that AT NO POINT may we ever have more than five cities. We CANNOT have extra cities midway through a turn. If we wish to take an opponent's city, we must abandon one of our own BEFORE taking another.

ROSTER (edit: June 24th, 8.00 AM CET)
gozpel
Aggie
LKendter
Hotrod0823
microbe
CarlosMM


microbe or Greebley will take the last spot.

24hrs to post a "got it" notice, and up to 48hrs after that to finish and post your turns. Gozpel will start with 25 turns. Next up can take 15/20 turns, and the next leader 10/15, then 10 each turn after that.

Please state your opinion on what civ to use. Participants should be deity-competent, as this will be a very challenging game. We will also need plenty of discussion on gameplan, especially regarding early offensive war on deity.

BANNED TACTICS
These are the exploits that I want to avoid in the game:

"Phony Peace Treaty": Making Peace Treaties without having the intention to stay at peace, just to get cheap techs or money.

"Palace Jump"; Jumping the palace by disbanding the capital. Rushing a palace or building it brick by brick is OK.

"RoP Rape": Using Right of Passage to move whole armies into attack position.

"Throwaway Cities": It is possible to go everywhere by settling, moving a setter one tile further in, abandoning the old city, founding a new one, etc...etc... A city shouldn't be abandoned in the same turn as it is settled.

"Resource Piracy": Sitting on resources or deny a civ access to a tile inside the borders of the rival while at peace.

"Seed Corn": It is not allowed to buy the LAST TWO workers from the AI before 1000 BC.

"Negative cash research": The penalty of negative cash is only one unit/improvement. So there are cases where this can be worthwile. Science spending must be lowered when the cash would go below zero.

OTHERS:
Things that I didn't name but are in the spirit of what I mention above I would like to have discussed.

wow, looking forward to this one.
can't üplay before Wednesday though I fear - I've ben away from the office for almost a month and will need to settle back in first.


as for the civ: I'd prefer to have a non-religious civ, as most of the trait (fast gov change) is rather useless in low-town-count games.

I prefer a scientific civ. It will give us the sling shot we need to advance. The other trait of choice would be commercial. This leads to Greece :) Korea has a the Hwach'a which is probably as bad as the bomber (regarding being lethal).

Greece..... hmmmmmmmm, the Hoplite is pretty much useless in deity games - by the time you can have a significant number of them to protect the significant number of attackers you need - even only to deal with an obnoxious enemy stack coming in and pillaging all over - the AIs will throw Med Infs at you. And in my experience, D=3 units are toast against AI A=4 units. the other way round, obviously, knights have a hard time killing Spears, but that is the NRNG after all.

So I am no too enthused by greece - but I fully agree with a Sci civ!

This leads to Greece
Do you want a despotic GA?
Not to mention a defensive unit can make it a real pain to trip your GA.


If you don't get enough of the previous Five players, sign me up. I was close to starting another of these in the LK series.

@Lee, CarlosMM: I understand the cons. But we may not be attacked in the ancient age. We can also trip our GA with wonders. We have had a number of wonders in the previous game as well.

@Lee: I noted your interest :)

My main focus was on the traits. I think that scientific and commercial are the best for this type of game. Plus we wanted a UU that isn't too powerful.

Looking at the traits:
-Religious is indeed not very great when you are small (as CarlosMM explains)
-Militaristic is greatly reduced in value when you can't build armies
-Seafaring is not great on a pangaea map
-Argicultural gives you an initial boost, but you only need to get 5 cities. The boost won't last long enough imho.
-Expansionist can help us a lot in the early game. We can be level in tech at the start of the MA due to trading etc...
-Commercial gives you extra commerce when next to a river, which is always nice for a small empire
-Scientific is very valuable with the free techs alone
-Industrious with faster workers is a good trait to have throughout the game

I would choose Scientific, Commercial, Expansionist or Industrious. My favourite is Scientific. This would mean Greece, Korea, Russia, Ottomans. The Ottomans are out (we had them already), Russia also has a very strong UU, Korea has a lethal bombardment UU.

But...if the team wants a non-scientific civ, than that's ok with me.

We could also choose an extreme option: random civ, but reload when we get a civ with an uber-UU (Ottomans, Germany, Vikings, Chinese) :D

How nice :)

Aggie, please do not reserve my place...it's going to be 1-2 weeks before I can begin playing Civ again, and given that 5CCs are pretty quick, you might be approaching the industrial age by that time.

A couple of comments though: I changed the map to 30% water, so we had a bit more room for the cities, and even then we didn't get a 5th city down properly for ages! But the more land you have the harder the game. I also changed barbarians to sedentary rather than random, not for the early game but because of the late game. Since you'll be razing so many cities, half the map might be empty and barb camps will sprout there, which is really annoying when there are rails everywhere cos they can appear from nowhere to kill a stack of 100 slaves that you thought were safe :D. It also gets annoying having to chase them around and then keep all the map lit to prevent their appearance.

Banning bombers and armies will make the game tough; but if you really want to take it to the extreme, how about restricting artillery as well? ;)

You could also, if you wish, add in unit restrictions; maybe no fast units, or no units that require resources etc...there is plenty of scope for adding variants/restrictions here.

Another thought I had (if you want to make this totally brutal): howe about playing this with the defiant nationalist ruleset? :D No giving in to demands, no units on your soil, no military agreements etc That would be quite a cookie....

Banning bombers and armies will make the game tough; but if you really want to take it to the extreme, how about restricting artillery as well? ;)

Nad, a couple of your suggestions sound VERY difficult indeed. Maybe something for the next game? It would be nice to have you in that one ;)

You probably are right that sedentary barbs is better. I remember them in MELI1 :( Tedious. I will also change landmass specs to 30%.

This means that LKendter can join us [party]

hehe, trading Nad for LK - I do not think this weakenes the team. Maybe, if Lee catches the virus, we can have BOTH of them for an uber-tough follow-on?????

I also changed barbarians to sedentary rather than random, not for the early game but because of the late game.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do this. I played on of the early LK 5CC with barbs. What a pain in the...

I can't find any comments on the patch. Is this game going to be on patch 1.22?

I no longer need 1.15 and need to delete the dual install to recover drive space. I can't commit to a game on 1.15.

This will be 1.22.

Just finished one SG so I'm interested. Haven't played a 5CC before. So if any of the reserved players gives up, put me in if ok. :)

OK microbe, you're now 1st reserve :)

I am interested. You probably want to see how good I am in your other SG first, though.

Why don't you guys try Sumeria?

@Foresight: you got that right :) Sumeria is a good civ, but the UU is alo an ancient age one. Same issues as Greece.

Great, you already got the thread up :)

Hmm..

"I will start with 25 turns."

ROSTER
gozpel
Aggie
CarlosMM
LKendter
open
open

Make up your mind, mate :crazyeye:

As for a civ, I agree we need the scientific trait, which leads us to:

Greece - Sci, Com - Hoplite
Germany - Sci, Mil - Panzer
Carthage - Sci, Sea - Numidian Merc
Sumeria - Sci, Agri - Enkidu Warrior
Byzantines - Sci, Sea - Dromon
Babylon - Sci, Rel - Bowmen
Russia - Sci, Exp - Cossack
Persia - Sci, Ind - Immortal
Ottomans - Sci, Ind - Sipahi
Korea - Sci, Com - Hwach'a

Did I miss anyone?

Ottomans is out, since we played them in the last game.

Cartage and Byzantine are out as we play pangea.
Korea is out with the Hwach'a.

I said from the beginning we should use a weaker UU, but with the removal of armies and bombers and perhaps arties as well, why not use the Immortal? It has a descent lifespan and we need at least something to get us going.

If that is considered cheesy, I would say Babylon as second choice. Our great "opponent" in the last game :) With their cheap culture building, we can certainly match the others and avoid silly flips. The Bowman is useful as defender as well.

Third choice is Greece as Commercial is powerful in the long run and Hoplites last for a while as well.

A thought about army, we should be able to build one, but only as a defensive army who never can leave the homelands? Ah, maybe cheesy.

Gozpel, I copy/pasted from another thread. You are supposed to start it :) I change the text immediately.

I totally forgot Persia. Same traits as Ottomans, a nice UU.

My choice:
1. Greece
2. Persia
3. Russia

Cathage isn't scientifc, but industrious :)

Oops, that's how it goes when you don't play certain civs enough. Ok, no Carthage then :)

Aggie, you are really pushing for Greece. And I see why too. We will probably need every extra gold we can get later on for brokering. And hoplites live forever, well almost anyways.

But as I said, we probably need something to not getting overrun and I love them Immortals.

So my choices:
1 - Persia
2 - Babs
3 - Greece

I'm just trying to be difficult :)

Btw Aggie, when we have picked a civ, do you want to create the map or should I?
I did a pretty good job not finding a river in the last game :)

Persia is a hit or miss civ. Iron usually doesn't show up right next to your start. So, with only 5 cities, you may not get it.

Computers usually haven't attacked me early game when I play greece. Not sure if the programming tells it that hoplites are hard to win against.

Yea you are right about the Early GA problem Aggie. I've always liked my GA to come at around the first sight of Pikeman.

I'm in! And either Greece or Persia would be nice.

I think I would lean towards Persia. We managed to do ok last game without salt so I think the iron issue shouldn't be too bad.

Hotrod

Persia looks fine!

Gozpel, go ahead and start up the game with Persia :)

Good to have you in the team again Hotrod! Let's wait a bit to see if Greebley wants to join. If he doesn't microbe can take the last spot.

I put CarlosMM at the end of the roster, because he won't be able to play until the start of next week.

ROSTER:
gozpel
Aggie
LKendter
Hotrod0823
microbe
CarlosMM

X-man rules! :)

I get this started right away.

Greebley will be away until June 29th. But knowing Greebley, I assume that he wants to play this one. Do we want 7 players or is 6 enough? Tbh I think that we shouldn't have more than 6 players. Micro Management (which takes so long in other games) won't be a big issue, so the game will probably be fast paced.

7 players would be fine with me - it is son time for summer holidays so dropouts due to absence are to be expected.

I'd like to sign up if you still have an open spot :) A 5CC takes so much less time then a full game.

As for traits, I agree on scientific, but commercial doesn't help too much on a 5CC. The main power of commercial is higher OCN, not the small extra commerce in city squares. I would rank agricultural as one of the better traits even for 5CC, as you will need the early growth even more. Seafaring or expansionist is also handy for contacts, seafaring more so on continents or archi though.

Tarkeel: it seems this game is already over-full - how about we start another for more interested people?

PM me if interested. maybe we do that without aggie's extra tough rules...

Tarkeel: yes, this game is full. I amazed about the huge interest and if CarlosMM wants to start another game, I'm in :cool:

hehe, aggie, u and tarkeel are up.
thread starts on monday when I get home.
you can think up a few interesting limitations until then ;)

Hey all,
I think I had better pass on this game. My SG plate is full at the moment. It would be fun to play, but joining it would be a mistake in terms of time.

I will follow your progress however. Good luck!

I understand Greebley :( microbe, welcome to the team :)

[party] Thanks Greebley! :D

Finally I got this started, the daughter hogged the computer all evening. Sorry for the delay.

Here we are:


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Persia_start.jpg


4000bc - Move the worker S. Persepolis founded -> warrior. Marshes, jungles, hills and mountains, our workers will be busy. GH to the north.
Min research on Alphabet.

3950bc - Worker start mine.

3900bc - ---

3850bc - ---

3800bc - ---

3750bc - Persepolis warrior -> warrior. Bubba goes S. Worker done mining, road.

3700bc - Bubba finds another GH and floodplains to the SSW and lots of marshes to the west.

3650bc - And some more FP's SE.

3600bc - Pop a GH full of barbs.

3550bc - Bubba survives barbattack.

Persepolis warrior -> warrior. Bongo goes E.

3500bc - Persepolis pop 2 and border expansion shows dyes to the north.

Bongo defends against barb. Bubba kills the remaining barb and promotes to vet.

3450bc - An Aztec warrior shows up from the south, they only want to give Pottery for Masonry, no deal. They also knows CB and WC and BW isn't worth anything to them.

3400bc - Persepolis warrior -> warrior. Bongo pops the other GH and surprisingly find more angry barbs. Bluto, the new warrior fortifies in town.

Right, Aztecs knows BW now.

3350bc - The barbs avoid Bongo and Bluto can safely go west.

3300bc - Persepolis warrior -> settler. Bonkers stays as MP.

3250bc - ---

3200bc - ---

3150bc - Bongo defends against barb.

Worker starts road to the floodplains S.

3100bc - Bongo meet Netherlands.

I give Aztecs Masonry for WC and 4g.
Masonry and WC to Netherlands for Alphabet and 10g.
Alphabet to Aztecs for Pottery, CB and 7g.

We got Alphabet without forking out gpt, which makes me quite happy. :)

Maths at min research.

3050bc - Bubba meet Sumer, they're down Masonry and Alphabet, we are up Masonry, no trade.

3000bc - ---

2950bc - Persepolis settler -> warrior. Send settler south, together with Bonkers.

We meet Japan, they knows the Wheel and Mysticism, no deals available.

2900bc - ---

2850bc - Bubba spots purple borders over water.

2800bc - Pasargadae founded by floodplains -> worker.

Netherlands stole the dyes north of Persepolis.

Masonry and 50g to Japan for the Wheel. Aztecs knows it too.

2750bc - Persepolis warrior -> warrior. Biggles stays in town.

Japan - 4 cities - up Myst
Netherlands - 4 cities - down CB and Wheel
Aztecs - 3 cities - even in tech
Sumer - 4 cities - down Masonry, Alphabet and the Wheel

We have 46g and 5gpt.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Persia2750bc.jpg

Wow, I'm glad we are industrious!!!

That land is ugly ! Should be interesting as usual.

I will be away until sunday see you all then.

Hotrod

Good job gozpel! I see a lot of rivers, grassland and a horse to the east. I have seen far worse starting spots. Remember that we only need to place 5 cities :)

ROSTER:
gozpel
Aggie-------up
LKendter----on deck
Hotrod0823--away until Sunday
microbe
CarlosMM

IHT: Nothing changed

Turn 1 (2710 BC) Bubba meets the Vikings, who are down Masonry and Pottery. Bonkers spots Aztec borders 5 tiles below Pasargadae.

Turn 2 (2670 BC) Japan has Iron Working.

IT: The Dutch kick Bluto out.

Turn 3 (2630 BC) :sleep:

IT: Persepolis: warrior->granary.

Turn 4 (2590 BC) The Vikings know Writing, but lack the Knowledge of Masonry and Pottery. They don't want to swap knowledge :(

IT: The Aztecs are sending a settler north. Our spots will be taken soon. I have a deja vu!

Turn 5 (2550 BC) :sleep:

Turn 6 (2510 BC) Sumeria has Mysticism and agrees to give it to us for Alphabet and 12 gold. We now have 3 techs over Ragnar, but Writing is no option still.

Turn 7 (2470 BC) :sleep:

Turn 8 (2430 BC) The Dutch know Horseback Riding.

IT: Pasargadae: worker->granary.

Turn 9 (2390 BC) :sleep:

Turn 10 (2350 BC) Sumeria takes the horse spot in the east :( The Dutch know Iron Working and Horseback Riding. The Aztecs learned Horseback Riding.

Turn 11 (2310 BC) The Vikings now also learned Iron Working. We have ivory VERY close by (3 tiles NW of Pasagardae).

Turn 12 (2270 BC) :sleep:

IT: Sumeria finishes the Colossus.

Turn 13 (2230) :sleep:

Turn 14 (2190 BC) I buy Iron Working from the Vikings for Masonry, Mysticism and 12 gold. The Aztecs get Iron Working for Horseback Riding and 2 gold.

Turn 15 (2150 BC) Japan now also has Writing. I just couldn't make the deal with the Vikings the whole time. These two are the only ones up in tech. Sumeria settles Agade NEXT TO Persepolis :o

We are in a difficult spot. The closest iron is not far away, but Sumeria or the Dutch will beat us. We are surrounded by three agricultural civs.



http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/5vsworldpart2land2150bc.jpg

I suggest next city SW of ivory... Other cities probably have be placed in the jungle. Our workers have a job to do!

ROSTER:
gozpel
Aggie
LKendter----up
Hotrod0823--away until Sunday - on deck or swapped with microbe
microbe
CarlosMM

You are fast! :eek:

Why are we building granaries in the two cities? We only need 3 more settlers, and AIs are expanding to us crazily. Maybe switch Pasargadae to settler?

You are fast! :eek:

Why are we building granaries in the two cities? We only need 3 more settlers, and AIs are expanding to us crazily. Maybe switch Pasargadae to settler?

Yes, that is certainly possible. I started a granary but knew that there would be time to swap. The other city needed a granary first imho (EDIT: it wouldn't grow fast enough for settlers).

This the kind of map we get when we use the first save :)

We need to secure that ivory and we can shift city placements as usual when we settled down and whacked some foes. The ivory will be important more for the lux itself than SoZ. And there's probably more ivory around.

I wish I could've scouted the ivory area before I founded that town, then the city would sit one NW. :gripe:

There are iron and horse in another spot to the NE, if we can grab that it would be a saver. We can only try, but as Aggie said, we will probably be beaten to it.

Bongo pops the other GH and surprisingly find more angry barbs.
We are playing deity, and you are surprised we got barbs?

=====================================

Civ feast overload continues... Still trying to finish 5 in my world map game.
I got it.

LK: i bet he was not meaning this literally ;)

We are playing deity, and you are surprised we got barbs?


I will try be more clear in my sarcasm next time, mate :)

Reason why I popped those huts? They were too close to our borders and if an other civ pops them and get barbs, it can cost a worker. I rather get rid of them as long as there is backup defense.

1910 BC
I whip the settler in Pasargadae to get another city sooner.

My dreams of an iron and horse city already end as Sumeria builds a nearby city.


Summary:
We may be playing the 4 1/2 city challenge.
I can't believe I am playing Persia without iron. :cry:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/5CCR-1750BC.zip


Next post has my proposed dot-map.
Blue dot is to get 2 bananas, and the wheat.
Red dot has way more overlap then I want with Pasargadae, but we are incredibly squeezed for city zones. IMHO a squeeze city is better then no city.
Yellow line is the path the warrior / settler in the picture have followed.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/LAK-422.jpg

This looks even more difficult than the first installment.

We should lower the lux tax and science to 0%. We are losing money now. Also, a warrior should go east and look for the two remaining civs. A couple of civs have mathematics already and Sumeria has Poly. Looks like we will be fighting Aztec Ancient Cavalry.

ROSTER:
gozpel
Aggie
LKendter
Hotrod0823--away until Sunday - on deck
microbe------up
CarlosMM

We should lower the lux tax and science to 0%. We are losing money now.
The cash issue will fix itself as soon as build the 2 new cities.


Looks like we will be fighting Aztec Ancient Cavalry.
The Aztecs seem tech backwards at the moment. If we time it right we still may have a chance at Zeus.

We also have the advantage that the Aztec may take to long to connect the Ivory. In our horrid resource situation we really need Zeus.

Yes, but we don't need to have science and lux over 0%.

Got it.....

preturn: drop sci to 10, but continue the min research. It will be completed in 18 turns.

We have no resources..

IBT Japan completes Oracle.

(1)1725BC: Arbela and Antioch are founded.

Pasargadae should switch to 3fpt for the same spt.

I set Arbela to temple and start chopping the forest.

(2)1700BC: ZZZ

(3)1675BC: ZZZ

(4)1650BC: We can afford either Math or Writing now, and Aztecs has a worker for sale, so it's time to trade. I buy Math from Sumeria with 174g+3gpt. Math + 1gpt to Vikings for Writing + 5g. Math to Aztecs for 20g + worker.

Totally 149g+4gpt for two techs and a worker. We are at tech parity! Min research on Lit of course.

IBT Persepolis settler->rax.

(5)1625BC: Sumeria and Vikings have Map Making. Wow, I just did the 2-fer in time!

(6)1600BC: Netherlands and Japan get Map Making too. Netherlands doesn't have Poly, and Aztecs has the same techs as us, everyone else has 2 more.

IBT Netherlands demands 20g, I cave.

(7)1575BC: We are blocked by Japanese units in the east, so I move the warrior to north hoping to walk around America's border.

(8)1550BC: Aztecs has Map Making too. Looks like it researched this tech by itself. That's good. :)

(9)1525BC: We just beat Aztecs to the spot. But there is a stack of 5 units next to us.

(10)1500BC: We found Gordium. It overlaps 3 tiles with Pasargadae, but what can we do. I thought about settling it 2 tiles NW to the horses, but I think the city in the fog is Aztecs capital, and we have no way to steal the horses or win the culture war with it, so I cancelled that plan.

We now have 5 crappy cities. Aztecs seems the best target, but it has both resources while we have none..

Do we want a prebuild of Zeus in our capital? We can only use Pyramids, as ivory hasn't been online yet. It should be online in about 16 turns if we whip the temple.

As you can see we just beat Aztecs and Sumeria to found Gordium..

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/5CCC-1500BC.jpg

ROSTER:
gozpel
Aggie
LKendter
Hotrod0823--away until Sunday - up
microbe
CarlosMM----on deck

The prebuild for Zeus is a very big gamble. But it would be awesome to get it.

I see it and will try and get this done tonight.

Hotrod

1500 BC (0): Oh my we are tight with our 5 have no iron and are 45 turns from Lit. A long shot IMo and I consider shutting it down. Well dropping to zero gains only 1 gold so min research it is. Now to see what we are building. Temples and barracks. Let it go as is for now.

Vikes start Great Lighthouse and Sumerians the Pyramids.

1475 AD (1): Wanding units move but nothing is new or exciting.

1450 AD (2): All is quite. Except the fact that if anyone attacks we are done.

1425 AD (3): More of the same.

1400 AD (4): Need MP or a temple in Pasargadae. Decide to swap to a temple but can be vetoed. Japan now has CoL all alone.

1375 AD (5) Persepolis builds a barracks and starts a warrior for quick MP duty and future Immortals.

1350 AD (6): Well tech just exploded. Japan got Philo. Aztecs now have Philo and CoL. Sumeria got construction and CoL. Vikes have Philo and CoL. And the Dutch are only MM and Poly ahead of us. We can afford nothing.

1325 AD (7): Persepolis builds a warrior starts another. Continue to try and bring warriors home.

1300 AD (8): The Dutch are warring on Summerian territory. More movement. Started to try and connect our last city. We are desperate mode for units and workers.

1275 AD (9): Persepolis is conintuing the warrior parade but really needs a temple sooner rather than later as well. Monarchy is out and Japan has started HG. I whip the Arbela temple and it will bring on the Ivory in a few turns.

1250 AD (10): Arabela builds a temple and starts a worker. Sumerians build Temple of Artemis. Swap Persepolis to an archer to better utilize the extra shiels being size 4 does for us. We can risk a whole lot now and start a prebuild for Temple of Zues but I would lean against it but will leave that up to the next player. We can start a prebuild now and the ivory would be online in 4 more turns. Swapped Pasargadae back to barracks so if we do go for Zeus we have at least one barrack town.

imho we should have scouted the lands to the east (past Osaka). We have to meet two more civs.

ROSTER:
gozpel------on deck
Aggie
LKendter
Hotrod0823
microbe
CarlosMM----up

During my turns I tried to do that but Japanese blocked the choke with an archer (?) and a worker working on a tile. I could have waited for the worker to go away and sign RoP and enter, but we were broke and couldn't afford an embassy, so I gave up and move to the north before America seals its border, hoping to meet somebody there.

Too bad we don't have a coastal city, otherwise we could send curraghs.

got it

it feels real good to be back :D

I can only play on weekends for the next 2 weeks, due to work commitments during the school holidays.

I have tried to get through Japan but they keep pushing me out. Maybe Carlos will be more lucky.

I have been looking around the game for 2 hours yesterday, and one more right now.

The only feasible path to iron seems to me: get a stack of archers and spears large enough to ENSURE the ability to raze Erech.
then, we could found a city on the green dot. razing the other sumer town and the dutch town would guarantee horses as well!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/battelplan.jpg


what do you all think about this? What city should we abandon for a horse&iron city if we do go that way?

Sounds reasonable, but we need a big stack (20 archers?). Also: we first must raze a city before settling or taking one.

aggie, read the text UNDER the screenie, too ;)

aargh, an annoying thing just happened: I got a C3C crash, the autosave is corrupted, and replaying by my notes has Japan establish an embassy with us just before I'd do it the other way round! grrrrrrrrrr! And I had even uploaded the pic of the cap already!!!!!

OK, as all the others seem not to have an opinion on this......

(1) - 1225 BC: I decide to go for SoZ.

(2) - 1200 BC: Amsterdam completes the Pyramids, Beijing the Mausolleum

(3) - 1175 BC: Trondheim has the Great Wall. The Aztecs have Ivory online now. NL is quite backwards in

tech, but I can't get any tech to 2fer! The Japanese establish an embassy.

(4) - 1150 BC: Ivory hooked up! Lux to 0% nets us 3 per! SoZ in 19!

(5) - 1125 BC: still there is no 2fer possible, as the prices asked for techs we could sell are too stiff and the Dutch will not give us either MM or CoL for the rest of our income I fear. I want to get rid of our money for now, as extortions can't be far away, but on the other hand we should save some for upgrades - if ever we get iron. Lux back up to 10.


(6) - 1100 BC: Sumer demands 24 Gold and gets them. :mad:

(7) - 1075 BC: 60 Gold get us ROP with Japan. I start roading a marsh to make unit transfer between perse and Arbela faster.

(8) - 1050 BC: a Japanese Worker still blocks our warrior! :aargh:

(9) - 1025 BC: the Sumerians raze the Dutch town near Horses/Iron! Now, if we found a town there that does NOT give us access to either res, but it allows us unit transfer to a kick-off position near Erech - Pasargadae starts settler, due in 4! Maybe we are lucky, though I do not want to make the choice whether to abandon a city for this or not! We would have to abandon Gordium, our road to Horses if for some reason my Erech-iron plan is a nonstarter!

(10) - 1000 BC: Tenochtitlan gets the Great Lib - wow! This really surprises me! Ur comes in second and

gets Hanging Gardens! Viks start SoZ! We have 13 to go!


say, aggie, would it be inacceptible by your rules to settle in enemy lands? if NOT, then we can settle next to the Japanese Horses, pulling them into our 9. Just a thought.

the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/5ccc-1000BC.SAV)

Settling in enemy lands is only allowed when at war.

ROSTER:
gozpel-------can't play atm
Aggie--------up
LKendter-----on deck
Hotrod0823
microbe
CarlosMM

oh, that's what 'enemy' means in my definition ;) So we could go to war and settle next to the horse, or on it?

Viks start SoZ! We have 13 to go!

Hm, this is really bad. Under deity they only need 120 shields. If they have 10 spt they'll build it first from scratch. If it's a cascade then we'll probably lose too. We probably need to do an investigation or embassy?

My thoughts exactly!

Well, I can't play, but I'm still allowed to lurk, ain't I?

Where are the Vikings building it and what size etc?

It is built in Reykjavik and we don't know where that city is. So we can't investigate that city :( I bet that we won't get it.

Does it show up in F11?

Was it building any wonder before that? CarlosMM could you find an older save and see if it's in F7?

Zeus is our only hope I would think..what if we lose it?

microbe: am looking........

bad news, good news.


all my autosaves are corrupted. :(

but the :) news: we get a settler in 3 turn, we can add him to Persepolis. Also the town will grow , adding more production. I think this may shave 4 turns or so off. I do NOT remember a prebuild in Reikjavik, so we SHOULD be save unless another civ switches!

IHT: I'm going to try this suggestion of carlosMM and join that settler.

IT: Japan finishes the Great Lighthouse. This will surely lead to a cascade and the end of our Zeus hopes :( Antioch: worker->worker.

Turn 1 (975 BC) Not a lot to do...

Turn 2 (950 BC) I can't help thinking that we missed a couple of tech 2fer opportunities. First time that I was up things were looking good, but now it's hopeless on this front.

IT: Pasdargadae: settler->temple.

Turn 3 (925 BC) The Vikings are now building Zeus in Bergen. I build an embassy for 59 gold. Then I investigate Bergen to see that they need:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/5cccbergenandzeus.jpg

The Aztecs haven't connected the ivroy to their capital yet.

IT: Antioch: worker->worker.

Turn 4 (900 BC) I won't join the settler. We are quite sure to get Zeus and the Vikings have nothing to cascade. Lux needs to go to 20% for our capital.

Turn 5, 6 (875 BC, 850 BC) :sleep:

IT: Arbela: barracks->warrior.

Turn 7 (825 BC) :sleep:

Antioch: worker->worker. Sumeria sends a SoD to Utrecht :D

Turn 8 (800 BC) Our vulture-settler goes to see what is happening in Utrecht. We can FINALLY move our warrior in Japan.

IT: The Sumerians move away :( Arbela: warrior->warrior.

Turn 9 (775 BC) :sleep:

Turn 10 (750 BC) Too bad that Sumeria doesn't go for Utrecht. They get distracted by the odd Dutch spear in their territory. Should Utrecht be razed, this will be an excellent spot (a lot of rivers and dyes). Which town should then go? We have Zeus in ttwo turns...
Sumeria just got into the MA. The tech situation is quite bad. We still need to meet two other tribes desperately. There's also a little possibility for a 2fer with the Dutch.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/5CCCempire750BC.jpg

I am missing it, or is a save buried in the post somewhere.

If I remember correctly I am next, but I need a save to play. ;)

I added it now.

750 BC (pre-turn)
I cancel a worker mining a hill by the Capitol. We are nowhere close to being able to use 3 hills.

I ship the Viking $14/turn and $158 and get Polytheism.
I ship the Netherlands Polytheism and $1/turn and get Philosophy and Literature.
Not a killer 2 for 1 deal, but it does help the tech picture.
(IT) You have got to love AI wars. The Vikings and Sumeria ally against the Aztecs.

I watch a lot of Sumerian and Dutch troops die. :D

The Aztecs start Zeus - sorry boys, but you are way too late.


730 BC
(IT) The Aztecs demand $18. I tell him he can kiss my cash.


690 BC
There is a Zulu Impi next to our exploring warrior in the Viking lands. [dance]

The bad news is they are up 3 techs. The good news is that we can now get tech at 6th civ prices.


670 BC
It sometimes works out in your favor to be kicked out by the AI. Our warrior has a new area to explore, and we know where Zulu lands are.
(IT) Japan and Sumeria ally vs. the Aztecs.


650 BC
(IT) The anti-Aztec dog pile continues as Japan and the Zulu ally vs. the Aztecs.


630 BC
(IT) The Sumerians are building Sun Tzu.


610 BC
I disband a regular warrior to avoid negative GPT.
(IT) Sumeria declares war on Japan.
Aztecs and Viking make peace.


590 BC
We badly need to get more techs, and more buildings to work on.
(IT) Demand havoc continues as Japan sucks $20 from us. That leaves us with $3 making $3/turn.

Summary:
We desperately need to get Currency and Republic. With just one lousy luxury, and no resources I see no easy way to get this game moving in our favor. I think we are going to have to gambling on a few AC beating someone up for some pointy stick research.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/5CCR-550BC.zip

Got it and will play tomorrow

ROSTER:
gozpel-------can't play atm
Aggie
LKendter
Hotrod0823--up
microbe------on deck
CarlosMM

great play!

can we perhaps, as the Aztecs have so many enemies, DO go for that Horse they have? Beat them up with ACs, nab the Horse and demand maybe a tech or two in peace?

Rescueing from page 2.

Still looking for Hotrod to play.

OK, Hotrod is skipped. Microbe is up.

ROSTER:
gozpel
Aggie
LKendter
Hotrod0823---skipped
microbe-------up
CarlosMM-----on deck

Got it, play tonight.

preturn: it seems we are running out of building tasks. Capital is set to wealth as we are making only +2gpt and already over our unit support.

I disband a warrior.

IBT Vikings demand 8g. I cave.

(1)530BC: not much.

IBT Japan and Aztecs start Sun Tzu's.

(2)510BC: lower lux to 20. Disband Biggles.

IBT Vikings and Aztecs MA against Sumeria!

(3)490BC: I disband a scouting warrior.

(4)470BC: I decide to hire a taxman in Pasargadae and lower lux to 10. Making 13gpt.

Zulu has not Monarchy.

I don't see us getting out of the tech hole in any near future. Everybody has 5 techs on us! The only way I see is to extort techs from the AI.

IBT Sumeria starts Knights Templar!

(5)450BC: We are making 16gpt now.

(6)430BC: Aztecs start Knights Templar too.

(7)410BC: ZZZ

IBT China declares on Japan. We haven't met them.

(8)390BC: ZZZ

(9)370BC: Our hopeless scouting warrior finally gets something useful: Chinese units surrounding Izumo!

And the great news is: it has CoL, Map Making and Construction up us while lacking Polytheism!!!

I get CoL + 4g by Polytheism.

We can get CoL or Map Making directly, but need to pay gpt for Construction or CoL + Map Making. I decide to get CoL and save the gpt, hoping for other 2-fer opportunities, then start min on Republic.

IBT China captures Izumo.

(10)350BC: Not much.

I have been preparing to declare on the Dutch, but I've not seen Sumeria/Netherlands fight in the past couple of turns. I am afraid they've made peace. This would make the war much more difficult. Anyway I put 3 AC next to Utrecht. We may still try. We may be able to raze it and get a lux, but we won't be able to hurt it enough to get a tech.

I disband our scouting warrior.

If we would be able to enter the middle ages, we will get a free tech. There are 2fers available. But I fear that we have missed the boat regarding a free tech slingshot. We could have articially maximized our income by setting lux and science tax at 0% and all citizens on taxmen. Doing it now is probably too risky, as the AI will have all the MA first level techs already :(

ROSTER:
gozpel--------on deck
Aggie
LKendter
Hotrod0823
microbe
CarlosMM-----up

We lacked 4 techs to get to IA, while we have no gpt to even buy one, so it's very unlikely we could have got into MA this way..

ouch - me, up?

I'll risk a peek, but if I feel overpower I hope you do not mind me handing it on, aggie?

This holiday week has been very hectic and my time on civ was non-existant.

Had intended to play on Friday but went out with the wife instead and parties/fireworks Sat, Sun and today. :(

I apologize for not getting in to let you all know my time was gone this weekend.

Hotrod

aggie, sorry, but I really would not know what to do in this game.
we can't hang in there, we can't hope to achieve anything with war unless it is very lucky and executed brilliantly.

Personally, I still think going for the Aztecs would be a good idea - Tenoch has the Great Library and is not far from finishing Knights Templar, btw. We'd get horses and that wonder, maybe, if we can just take and hold the city! But I can't see how to do that :(

please skip me!

I hope this isn't a sign of the future for this game. I find skips because of a bad situation very disappointing.

Lee: so do I - but this first war is actually THE biggest thing in the near future of the game. Maybe, if it wasn't a week I expect to work 70 hours in, if I had the time and the ability to fully concentrate - maybe I could pull it off. But now it would mean blowing the game for the rest of the team. :nono:

But you are correct, and I guess I better withdraw from the team altogether. I hope you guys find a way out of the hole - I am sorry I can't help! :(

Hmmm, I wonder if this one really is that much more difficult than the previous version, where we ended up with 4 cities (only 3 decent ones) after a flip. And with our Greek neighbours having the Great Wall. I personally find games where you know 100% certain that you will win boring. For me this game is a challenge...can we actually win it?

Anyway, gozpel is up:

ROSTER:
gozpel--------up
Aggie---------on deck
LKendter
Hotrod0823
microbe
CarlosMM-----skipped (edit: dropped out)

EDIT: gozpel can only play in the weekend? That would make me up...

aggie: indeed it is a challenge - but I am NOT sure I am up to it right now. sorry!

Let's give this one a boost with a discussion! I don't know for sure if gozpel can play, but we need to decide a thing anyway imho. We may be able to raze Utrecht. If we do so, should be settle somewhere over there? And if we do that, which city should we abandon?

After a first glance I vote for settling W of Utrecht OR S of the horses. The horse setlement is a bit agressive, but gives us horses. We don't have to fear the Dutch culture.

We could abandon Gordium, but honestly I think that all cities are at least half decent now.

If gozpel is playing next, please note that the warrior in the NE covers a settler!

I think we can mount a strike at Utrech and raze it and replace due south of the horses. That will require Rotterdam and any other surrounding towns to be razed as well. As far as cities that need to be abondoned I would lose Antioch. Right now is it serving as a nice buffer against the Sumerians but not much else. Gordium, Arebela and of course Pasargdae are strong cities atm.

If gozpel is unable to play I can play tonight!

Hotrod

Well no new replys will check in tomorrow

gozpel cannot play until this weekend, according to his older post, so just play it.

This game indeed looks very tough, but let's play it through.

Missed where Aggie edited and said he will take it so.... I will wait until it comes back to me. I will open it and take a peak to give my further 2 cents though.

Hotrod

Only a few more days of real life and then I can play. Friday is the last day of work and then it's back to normal for me :)

I'm itching to play this, but have to be realistic and concentrate on what I'm doing here.

Antioch is junk city with to much overlap with our other cities. There is no question on the city to get rid of. In my 5CC games I am use to each city have 21 tiles, and some extra between cities. You really need maximum territory.

The attack plan has another key item - dyes. We really drew the short start for resources and luxuries. I won't argue with fixing the luxury situation.

Hotrod, please take it if you can :)

Since I now have more free time and am a stickler for a challenge, could I humbly request to take Carlos' place? ;) :mischief:

You have both a lot of overlap and no coastal city. Given that the chances are good there is an island on the map, you will have problems going for conquest if you don't choose a coastal one. It might be worth considering moving both cities with overlap to choose a coastal one as well as the one near Utrecht removing overlap in the process (move antioch and gordium).

It would hurt you in the short term, but would probably be a win by game end.

I agree a coastal city would help to handle a future island. I don't think that is viable unless we can evict the Aztecs. I don't see how we can do enough damage to the dutch to get a coastal city from them.

Okay I've got time to play tonight.

Nad, welcome :)

350 BC (0): Behind but not over.... I like the taking of the dutch. Antioch is not long for this world so I swap to a settler. Will ready to attack once we get another AC and an few more archers. Research on Republic seems futile at this point but I decide to let it go for now. Well I bite the bullet and buy currency from Zulu for 80 gold and :eek: 20gpt. I figured at least markets may help our stagering economy and we arent going to be doing anything with the gold in the bank. Currency to China for Map Making and his 11 gold.

330 BC (1): Persepolis builds an archer and starts a spear to eventually cover the new town. OMG Sumerians starts Sistenes. No decide to pull the spear from Pasar and leave it as an archer.

310 BC (2): Ok now we have 4 AC will move on dutch next turn. Pasargadae builds a spear to move up to Persopolis. Pasargadae starts an archer. Arbela build an archer starts another.

290 aD (3): Persepolis builds an archer starts another. :lol: Aztecs start on Leos. Declare on the Dutch and Utrech is razed but it cost 2 vet AC vs 2 Spears. The Dyes are now ours. This is not going to be pretty. An archer grabs a dutch worker.

270 AD (4): We are the only ones not in the Middle ages. Can't buy construction. Resting the AC's and moving archers North.

250 AD (5): Kill 2 stray dutch units and spot a dutch sword in the area. Let the second AC heal up moving settler into position aggressively settling near the Dutch/soon to be Persian horses.

230 AD (6): Manage to kill 2 swords but we are already wounded. Build a couple new archers start more. Anitoch builds a settler starts a worker for now.

INBT: Kill 2 advancing swords but lose a wounded archer to a 3rd.

210 AB (7): We get a new AC and persepolis continues with archers. Aztecs can now build crusaders. Gordium starts a much needed courthouse. Kill a spear outside of Arbela but fail to kill an archer.

190 AD (8); Pasargadae builds an archer start a spear. Kill a lone spear. Have an AC and archer hang back to cover the Capital as a sword is approaching.

170 AD (9); See my first Dutch MDI that dies to an AC. The sword in the east is still coming. The archer continue out of Persepolis and Arebela. Fortify the somewhat wounded stack 2 tiles south of the horses but protected by rivers.

150 aD (10): Ugly! Lose a vet 4/5 AC to an attacking Sword. And our elite 3/5 spear to a MDI. Decide to disband Antioch and found Bactra where we stand. Hope it can hold. Rather than lose the city I call up the Dutch and discuss peace. We can get peace straight up. I think we should take it. I make the call and take the peace. I am sending the settler north to "Join" Bactra. With an MDI, and 3 swords in the area I figure keeping the city is more important than wasting more turns fighting. We need to rush the library as soon as we can.

Felt it was in our best interest to make the move on the Dutch when I did and get out while the gettin' was good. We are in tough shape still but at least now we have 2 lux and 5 "real" cities.

We can build markets to help our lagging economy. And in 10 more turns maybe we can buy our way out of Ancient times :p.

Hotrod

A short war. :lol:

Good job! I hope Dutch won't settle again the lux.

Next time however they won't talk so soon.

Great job Hotrod! Short but effective little war :)

Nad, if you can take it that would be great.


ROSTER:
Nad-----------up(?)
gozpel--------on deck
Aggie
LKendter
Hotrod0823
microbe

I can play possibly today (50% chance), definitely tomorrow, so I got it. Will need to read through the thread in detail to see where we're at :).

I can't argue with a second luxury. :D

I agree that the ability to build markets is a big plus. That is one of the 2 key things to improve our position. Now if we can get a better government...

seeing how hard the Dutch units fought I am glad I stepped out - I WOULD have bungled it!

We have been able to get ourselves 5 decent cities. We don't have horses and iron, but we DO have AC's. That's a big plus. Should our next target be Sumeria (to get iron/horses)? And when are we going on an offense again? In the prequel we decided to build infra until cavalry (sipahi there).

It's nice to be playing this variant again. Looks like we've got some consolidation to do.

As Hotrod said, we can't do much techwise until the Zulu deal expires. At this stage of the game I don't think falling behind in tech is an irreversible disaster. There's plenty of time to catch up, especially with all the AI wars, and as long as we stay less than an age behind we'll be fine. At the moment we can't be much more than half an age behind, so no need for panic yet.

Persepolis changes to market and moves off the gold hill to a grassland; max food is more important than commerce. Pasargadae and Arbela also change to markets. Arbela and Gordium configured to max shields at size 6. Moving off military production at this stage is something of a risk but we need markets right now more than anything else. If we get attacked we should hopefully have enough time to react.

Overall our cities look good. 4 of them are in excellent long-term positions. The dilemma is Gordium, because of its heavy overlap with Pasargadae and the need for a coastal city. For now I'll continue with infra in Gordium, markets and courthouses will pay for themselves anyway, and we don't know how long it'll be before we change the 5th city location. I do feel, however, that long-term Gordium will have to go for a coastal city perhaps somewhere near where Amsterdam is right now?

Resource-wise iron and horses and not too far outside our borders. Once we go on the warpath proper we should be able to clear those areas and found colonies. In the meantime, ancient cavalry are a blessing in this game.

Turn 1, 130BC: moving units back to cities to heal.

IT: Persepolis produces ancient cav.

Turn 2, 110BC: settler joins Bactra.

IT: Aztecs already have muskets running around. Sumeria starts Copernicus...

Turn 5, 50BC: up to a princely 6gpt :D

IT: Sumeria demands 22g. I seriously consider telling them to stuff it, but I decide not to let the AI have first strike over a measly 22g, so paid.

Turn 6, 30BC: trying to keep cities growing, little else to do.

IT: Sumeria and Japan make peace. Persepolis produces ancient cav.

Turn 7, 10BC: Consider increasing lux to 20%. Instead, decide to send only dyes to Aztecs for incense and wines. Lux stays at 10% and cities stay on max food.

IT: Persepolis market ----------> catapult.

Turn 8, 10AD: whip library in Bactra.

IT: Aztecs join the party and extort 22g.

Bactra library -----------> courthouse

Turn 9, 30AD: plodding away at micromanagement.

IT: Scandinavia and Aztecs make peace.

Persepolis catapult ----------> catapult

Turn 10, 50AD: we have our gold back and can trade. Japan is down to 2 cities, so purchase from them in hopes of getting out of deal early when they're eliminated. Construction purchased for 27gpt. We draw feudalism, which China lacks! Feudalism sold to China for republic, dyes, worker + 32g. I think we should revolt immediately and use taxmen to cover our payment to Japan (only 91g treasury), especially as Japan may not be around for much more than another 5 turns. Nevertheless, will leave that to the next player in case the team feels differently.

Persepolis changes to colosseum, Arbela and Gordium to aqueduct.

Great tech deals Nad :) I agree with a revolt now.

EDIT: ehm, can we afford anarchy?

ROSTER:
Nad
gozpel--------up
Aggie---------on deck
LKendter
Hotrod0823
microbe

Looking very good. :)

How much gpt we are paying in total?

EDIT: ehm, can we afford anarchy?
If you run out of cash during anarchy you WON'T lose buildings. The payments simply continues. Once you out of anarchy you need to get back to positive cash flow.

We need the cash flow from Republic NOW - IMHO revolt.

Nice to hear we are slowly catching up on tech. It only takes one laggard to help us catch up.

I know that we can run negative cash in anarchy, but that's a loophole imho. I'd prefer to avoid it.

We're paying 27gpt to Japan, 91g treasury, so at that rate (assuming no demands) we can survice 3 turns w/o going negative. But with 6 taxmen during anarchy, for example, at -15gpt we can survive 6 turns (assuming no demands). The Japanese might not even be around too much longer anyway. I think we should bite the bullet, risk a couple of pop points starvation if necassary, and get into republic asap.

I got it and I agree we should switch immediately.

Pre-turn - Cities are in order and it's nice to see 2 longterm lux-deals.

So let us switch government, I was thinking of pop-rushing stuff but decide our poplulation is too important atm.

We get 5 turns of anarchy and a couple of taxmen set us to -21gpt right now. We won't lose pop though, which is good. Food in cities is on growth or at least even.

70AD - IT - China and Japan sign peace.

Zulu are building Leo's.

90AD - IT - Sumeria completes Sistine.

We build another AC.

Use negative food for a turn to get down to -13gpt

110AD - IT - Scandinavia wants us to join an alliance against Sumeria. No thanks.

2 turns left and we have 38g and I make it -19gpt, so towns can grow again.

130AD - ---

150AD - We are a Republic with zero gold in the bank. 10% luxes cost us 9gpt and only helps Pasgadae. I MM Pasgadae instead (a clown and a taxman) to no growth, market in 5t and with luxtax at zero we actually make 12gpt.

We have too many useless units and we pay 36gpt for upkeep. I will disband a couple of warriors, one in Gordium makes Aqueduct finishdate one turn earlier. I didn't disband Bubba though, I pay 2gpt out of my own pockets if I have to, just to keep him :)

Switch Bactra to a worker, we need to improve that area quicker.

170AD - Workers remove some jungle outside P-polis and reveals a BG.

190AD - IT - Vikings completes Sun Tzu.
Everyone starts on Leo's. Aztecs starts Copernicus and Sumeria Smiths and Bach :lol:

Bactra worker -> court, disband Bluto there as we build another AC.
Arbela aqueduct -> market.

We could buy iron from Sumeria for every penny we have (30g and 12gpt) but what could we do with that? Better wait until we got some more money. We could buy horses for half the price of iron, but we don't need that right away either.

210AD - IT - Yikes, Sumeria completes both Leo's and Copernicus!

Arbela grows to 7 and I raise luxes to 10%, so Pasgadae can start growing again.

230AD - IT - Japan wants us to fight the Aztecs with them, you got to be kidding, all those knights and muskets will be YOUR downfall. We wait.

250AD - Pasgadae market -> colosseum.

Horses and iron is still for sale if we for some reason want it?

Economy is slowly improving, we have 86g and make 28gpt.

This is certainly a game of patience :)

Horses and iron is still for sale if we for some reason want it?

Well Iron would let us build some Immortals and trip our GA.

Haha, funny :)

I played another game and completely forgot we haven't had the GA yet. That is an incentive enough I guess :lol:

ROSTER:
Nad
gozpel
Aggie---------up
LKendter------on deck
Hotrod0823
microbe

IHT: I can buy iron from Sumeria and China. We have no direct trade route to China, so it could ruin our rep I buy Iron for 13 gpt and 8 gold from Sumeria. The cities are MM-ed perfectly :goodjob:, but I change Pasagadae to growth instead of shields. And change it to an immortal. Bubba is the first immortal of our empire. We shouldn't have killed the others I feel. They could have been immortals as well. Only China is backward and I see no deals with other tribes.

IT: Vikings and Zulu MA vs the Aztecs. Sumeria declares on Japan. Gordium: aquedut->market.

Turn 1 (260 AD) We can't trade with China anymore, so in hindsight I indeed did best to trade with Sumeria.

IT: We get a new AC.

Turn 2 (270 AD) Gordium gets a taxman.

Turn 3 (280 AD) :sleep:

IT: The Zulu and Vikings MA vs Sumeria. Pasargadae: immortals->colosseum.

Turn 4 (290 AD) A started a colosseum in Pasargadae, because it requires us to up the lux tax at size 10.

IT: Persepolis: colosseum->immortals

Turn 5, 6 (300, 310 AD) :sleep:

IT: We get a new AC, China establishes an embassy in our capital.

Turn 7 (320 AD) We renew our Dyes for Wines and Incense deal with the Aztecs and only get 7 gold extra.

IT: China and Sumeria MA vs Japan. Persepolis: immortals->immortals, Arbela: market->courthouse.

Turn 8, 9 (330, 340 AD) :sleep:

IT: Persepolis: immortals->immortals.

Turn 10 (350 AD) Absolutely brilliant! Just when we have gpt back (we now make 53 gpt) China discovers Engineering. This allows us to go for a 2fer.
I take a chance and renegotiate peace with weak Japan. They now are willing to give us Monoteism for 41 gpt. 15 gpt less than other tribes. They are weak but I epxect them to survive 20 turns. They have an isolated city east of the Viking lands. A tribe they are at peace with. Monotheism and 35 gold give me Engineering from China. I sell the wm for 15 gold to Sumeria and Vikings.
I swap Pasargadae to cathedral.

We have a decent military. I don't mind pointy-stick research in the near future.

ROSTER:
Nad
gozpel
Aggie
LKendter------up
Hotrod0823----on deck
microbe

I sell the wm for 15 gold to Sumeria and Vikings.
:eek: Can we really be THAT far behind. :eek:

I got it

We are behind, but if we focus on the required tehs we should be ok. The AI generally beelines to Navigation and can get that tech pretty quickly. There are a lot of wars going on now, which should slow the techs speed. And we know that the AI takes a lot of turns to discover the government techs in the IA. And then there's the GA we still have to get.

350 AD (pre-turn)
What bites is the only valid war target of Netherlands isn't at war with anyone. They haven't had a GA, and they have Swiss mercs deployed.

We have almost completely thrown away the advantage of being Persia.

I upgrade our six spearmen to pikes. We should have the maximum fighting strength.


360 AD
I don't make sense at this point, but we could ship Sumeria Ivory and $1/turn for Spices and Horses. I do want to take advantage of our Ivory, so I ship it to Sumeria for spices, $35 and tm. Every buck we can squeeze helps us out.

I get away with demanding $12 from Japan. :D

I buy the Aztec tm for wm and $23.

Our trade route to Sumeria goes through Dutch waters. :wallbash:
(IT) China wants an alliance vs. Japan. Sorry, but I have active deals with Japan.


370 AD
(IT) Netherlands and Scandinavia ally vs. the Aztecs.


380 AD
(IT) The Aztecs complete Bach's


390 AD
Japan's map knowledge is so bad we can sell them wm for a worker!


400 AD
We know have a valid LAND route to Sumeria.


410 AD
What a complete rip off. It is now 6 turns and no new AC. We don't have metallurgy, so I don't know what is going on.

I see great news in the Sumeria just sent to workers that should add a second valid land route.


420 AD
I buy the Dutch TM for wm and $18.
(IT) Of course the frelling Dutch make a demand when a ton of their troops are inside our borders. I have to choice but to give him $26.

We are beyond deep you know what - Sumeria starts NEWTONS!


440 AD
The bad news continues are Sumeria builds Smith's.



Summary:
I can't remember the last game where it was this bad for tech. I have to keep telling myself it isn't over till it's over. However, we have 0% chance of the scientific slingshot. We are at least 9 required techs behind the leader.

I came very close to saying screw it and go after the Dutch even though we would have probably gotten slaughtered.

I would let the Dutch and Aztecs beat each other up for awhile. Our goals are to burn Middleburg and Rotterdam to the ground. That eliminates all culture pressure on our cities.

IMHO if we can't start a war within 20 turns we have no chance to win. The team needs to decide the target now.
The trouble is Sumeria needs to be the target to stop the leader, but then we have no way to get iron.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/5CCR-450AD.zip

I don't make sense at this point, but we could ship Sumeria Ivory and $1/turn for Spices and Horses. I do want to take advantage of our Ivory, so I ship it to Sumeria for spices, $35 and tm. Every buck we can squeeze helps us out.

What a complete rip off. It is now 6 turns and no new AC. We don't have metallurgy, so I don't know what is going on.

Do we have ivory for an AC? :mischief:

We didn't throw away our advantage of being Persia. We started on a horrible spot and did did quite well considering the circumstances. But I agree, we are far behind. I like the idea of attacking someone very soon, probably the Dutch. Despite their 1.4.1 defense. We would ALSO get a GA in this war. We can reach 3 cities in one turn and this would seriuosly hurt the Dutch. We should be aware that the war may take at least 8 turns though. We were at war before.

What a complete rip off. It is now 6 turns and no new AC.^

:eek:
You didn't ship your only source of Ivory, perhaps?

:wallbash: I am a total frelling idiot. :wallbash:

I completely forget about the ivory requirement for pumping out the AC.

Well, it saves us the upkeep costs :o

ROSTER:
Nad
gozpel
Aggie
LKendter
Hotrod0823----up
microbe-------on deck

I got it and will try and play right now. If I see an opportunity to hit the Dutch again I will take it.

Hotrod

Well didn't get to play a single turn, due to a napper who didn't nap :(, but don't think we are in any position to attack the Dutch they have unit in our territory and don't like the idea of facing the UU.

I think we may be able to join the fight with the other vs. the Aztecs

Comments??

Hotrod

That's also OK, but they have knights and the other tribes probably can't reach them. The good thing about it is that it would be our first war with them and if we hurt them we can make peace with a profit in 4-6 turns.

I think we may be able to join the fight with the other vs. the Aztecs

Comments??

We have open luxuries trades with the Aztes, and we are dependent on them for two luxuries! Watch when you declare.

We do need a war somewhere, though we still must deal with the dutch at some point. I don't want a city to flip on us.

Indeed, 7 more turns in a lux deal with the Aztecs... I agree that we have to use our forces.

Here is an update: Was playing then Conquests crashed so I didn't finish will complete tomorrow.

450 AD (0): Survey the situation and we need something to happen quickly. I don't think we are ready to hit the Dutch quite yet and the Aztecs will be an option in 7 turns. Hope china gets another tech to pull a two-fer.

INBT: Well I don't think we want a fight with Sumeria so I pay up with WM and 28 gold. He also was kind enough to cancel our iron deal. :( He was kind enough to re-deal for a mere 6 gold more.

460 AD (1): More immortals out of Pasargadae. MM to get the next 1 in 2 turns vs. 3. Sumeria has horse available but want to conserve money for tech buys hopefully soon.

470 AD (2): Persepolis builds an immortal and starts another. Trying to get situated to protect the homefront and make a play at the Dutch at the same time. Holding some immortals back.

480 AD (3): Pasargadae immortal parade continues. Oh and BTW Summeria just went industrial :wallbash:.

490 AD (4):Not terribly pleased with our techs and we are in okay shape as far as dutch units are conserned so I politely as him to get the heck out of dodge and he declares war on us. Kill a few randow dutch units and we have a golden age. Move stack to hit Middleburg. Wake the AC stack to hit Rotterdam.

INBT: Sumeria just took out Japan.

500 AD (5): Raze Middelburg with only the loss of 1 immortal. Without any loses Rotterdam at size 10 is razed to the ground. Move the unuses AC towards Maastricht. Hopefully Bactra will expand to give us Horses in 2 more turns.

INBT: sumeria takes out teh Vikes.

510 AD (6): Sumeria builds Magellenes, like they need it. The immortal building continues. The Dutch recalled units in Sumeria to come at us. We need to use the locals to fend them off. For good measure build and Aztec embassy. The ACs get the job done in Maastricht and it is razed to the ground.

520 AD (7): We can now builds horses but immortals are still the way to go.

530 AD (8): Kill many Dutch units via Defence. More immortals are built. Bactra gets a baracks. Clean up a half dozen Dutch in our territories. He will now give up tech for peace but don't want it yet. I have my eye on a nice silk colony.

Very good job Hotrod :D Ouch on Sumeria though :o

He will now give up tech for peace but don't want it yet.
I think we have 2 needed techs visible. As long as we aren't at risk lets pointy stick both. :D

Tech is our biggest danger. I don't want pikes defending against Sumerian cavalry. We need to take advantage of point stick. If he run out of techs, maybe get a good world map as bonus. ;)

A few more thoughts now that we are starting to turn the corner.

1) Let's merge some native workers into our cities while we have the chance (cities under size 12). We should have picked up a few free workers, and we need to start lowering our unit support cost.

2) The Aztecs need to feel pain next. Please don't renew any deals with them. Even with 2 free techs from the Dutch we have a long way to go to catch up. Now if backwards China gets something we don't have maybe we can get further up the tree from the Dutch.

3) We don't want to cripple the Dutch and Aztecs to badly. We will need to start a dogpile against Sumeria soon. We have to stop the run away leader...

I agree with the points Lee makes.

Replayed

530 AD (8): Kill some straggling Dutch. Seems like we had more losses this time. Must have been some thing done different.

540 AD (9): Kill more Dutch units. Build more immortals. Add some workers as lee suggested. :hmm: He will give up Invention and Theology for 515 gold. One more turn of war and see if I can't get that down a little. Also the troups are getting thin at the front.

550 AD (10): Not really happy with the amount of units on the front line I go for the peace deal. So we get Peace, Theology and Invention for 407 gold. Can cancel the ivory deal next turn and the lux deal with the Aztecs anytime.
I changed up a few Immortals to project to get some legs out of the GA.

ROSTER:
Nad---------on deck
gozpel
Aggie
LKendter
Hotrod0823
microbe-------up

Good job Hotrod. But two big question pop up now:

-How to fight a civ that has cavalry and rifles with Immortals, AC's and pikes?
-How to get back into the tech race?

I can't see us profit from a dogpile on Sumeria. We probably are victim number 1. Can we really survive a 20-turn war vs them? We have to wait 10 turns anyway.

What should our plan be now?

Next turn our spices for ivory deal runs out. Please don't renew it!

EDIT: No other civ has Printing Press. Shouldn't we go for this? We would have it in 8 turns with max science (-82 gpt). But could also try a min science run.

I agree we aren't ready for Sumeria yet. We are at least catching up some with tech. I

think the Aztecs owe us some tech and are the next victim. I hope we can pointy-stick some from them.

Note: I will be on vacation from Aug 3 to Aug 9. I will have net access, but will not have any time to play games.

I can only play this tomorrow night the earliest. A swap would be fine with me too.

If Nad can play before than, it's ok. But otherwise tomorrow night is fine by me too.

I noticed China is still backwards. We should take advantage of this. Right know we can give them theology for $2 and 2 workers. Our trading with China works out good as we may be able to do a two for one at some point. If they die, we may as well control those workers.

The terrible news is Sumeria has RIFLES deployed already. We need to head toward cavalry ASAP. We can start with gunpowder to locate the salt. We should buy the world map at this point. We really need to judge how much of a monster Sumeria is.

preturn: I switch Bactra to temple. Switch Persepolis and Arbela to library. Why is Arbela building a granary at size 11?

Raise sci to 70 to get Printing Press in 10. Invention to China for 2 workers plus 2g.

Moving units out of Netherlands.

(1)560AD: Movement. With a library built PP is due in 8 turns.

IBT Sumeria establishes embassy with us.

(2)570AD: Another library makes PP in 6. I raise sci to 80 and get it in 5 instead.

WM is too expensive so I hold.

IBT China and Netherlands MA vs Aztecs.

(3)580AD: Bactra built temple.

Very bad news, Aztecs have cavalry now!

I hire a clown and a scientist in Gordium, a scientist in Bactra and lower lux to 10.

IBT Lots of Aztec knights pass our territory. Double palace expansion.

(4)590AD: zzz

IBT Sumaria builds Newton.

(5)600AD: Aztecs has 4 cav and 10 knigts in our territory!

IBT Aztecs capture a new Dutch town.

(6)610AD: I start blocking Aztecs as I don't want them to freely trespass us.

IBT we get Printing Press.

(7)620AD:

Printing Press to Sumeria for Gunpowder + 259g.
Two pieces of good news: 1. We have saltpeter! 2. Zulu has no chemistry!
PP+64gpt to Aztecs for Chemistry as it offers much better price than Netherlands.
PP+chemistry+WM+44gpt+11g to Zulu for Chivalry + Education.
PP to Netherlands for WM+96g.
Lower lux to 0 and hire a taxman so we can pay WM+84gpt+411g to Aztecs for Metallury.
I ask her to leave and she declares! :lol:
So now we can trade Metallury+WM+5g to Zulu for Banking otherwise I'd have to sell it cheaply to get the 44gpt back to avoid negative income.
Theology to China for Monarchy+3g.

7 techs for 44gpt+72g, plus a serious war. :lol:

We have 134gpt income. After GA it probably will drop to almost zero, so I have to hold buying Military Tradition.

Now let's see the bad part. There are about 14 units next to Bactra. We are really in trouble as we have about 7-8 units in it with only ONE pike.

We lose one immortal but kill 2 musket.
AC kills redlined cavalry.

I have to use several slave workers to distract the Aztec SoD. Hope we can hold the city.

We are trading our only ivory to sumeria for spices, and we should have cancelled it long time back. I cancel it as the ivory might be pillaged.

IBT we lose 7 immortals, 2 pike, 1 AC and 2 archers. The best unit in Bactra was once archers, but the city holds. We had some luck as in many battles we win by 1-hp.

(8)630AD: We already have WW. I buy wines+furs from Zulu with 17gpt+2g.

2 AC kill 2 knights, another AC loses to knight and immortal finishes it off. Now the stack is gone. :D Immortal loses to vet cav, takes 2-hp and promotes it, another immortal finishes it off.

I loan 31g from Sumeria to be able to upgrade 2 pikes to musketmen.

IBT Zulu destroyed China. We lose 3 immortals and one pike to Aztecs. Not THAT bad.

(9)640AD: More movement.

We have 65g so I establish embassy with Netherlands by 50g. It has iron/horses but not saltpeter. Capital has 5 clowns with 3 lux!

I then sign RoP with it so it could get to Aztecs sooner.

There is one bad thing that Netlerlands found a city next to horses and will get it from us after expansion. But this guy has no saltpeter so we can deal with it later. [EDIT: I am not sure if I messed up and moved away some units positioned there by previous players to prevent this situation]

IBT we lose a couple of immortals. The RoP also pays off as Dutch kills a cav for us.

(10)650AD: We kill a reg musket and a redlined cav. We are relatively safe now as I now see only one cav in our territory.

I hope Aztecs will talk soon, but we are more or less OK. Most of units we lost were immortals, but I'd rather they kill them instead of attacking cities or resources.

There is a 2-fer opportunity as Zulu doesn't have Military Tradition, but our GA will end soon so we shouldn't use up all our gpt.

Aztec's horses is very close to us. I would send a knight or AC to pillage it asap. Every turn there is one or two cav coming out of the fog and attacking our immortals, very annoying.

During the war I didn't attack much. I let AI attack mostly instead. There is an MDI in the north and we don't need to care much, as usually Netherlands will kill them for us.

Try to build fort on the ivory next turn when the nearby stack of workers finishes the current job.

I didn't really prepare for the war very well as I moved most of our units to the south, while when the war started there were lots of Aztec units in the north, but I took the risk and I think we've survived the worst turns. I've got us 8 techs and we are still making +145gpt!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/5CCC-650AD.jpg

I can't judge the situation exactly, because I have no access to civ. But from what I read we are doing ok in the war and have a lot of techs. If we survive/keep up in tech until artillery things look well.

ROSTER:
Nad---------up
gozpel------on deck
Aggie
LKendter
Hotrod0823
microbe

7 techs for 44gpt+72g,
:hmm: Is a 7 for a new trading record? :D
That definitely qualifies as catching up on tech even if some was optional (Monarchy).

================================

One runaway civ and three stronger AI who are still in the MA. I must say that those Aztecs look scary. We probably have to pay for peace, but that would still net us a lot of money.

7 techs is certainly great, but he took a risk :)

7 techs is certainly great, but he took a risk

I agree it was a gamble, but we needed something to catch up to Sumeria!
We now can build those important banks to improve the economy during the next peace break. We still have work to catch up, but the hole doesn't feel hopeless like it did during my turns.

I am very happy that microbe took that risk, make no mistake. But the next player may still have a lot to do. I see Aztec forces around our empire.

Looks like a rough situation and we've lost a lot of units. Great work on the tech catch-up but I hope this does not prove to be a bad war for us. Got it, will see what I can do about the Aztecs.

It's actually not that bad. We lost some immortals, but their age is gone anyway and we save a lot of upkeep cost. :) We can build knights to upgrade to cavalry soon, so who need immortals? :p

We are at the 4th turn of the war. Since this is our first war with Aztecs, I expect them to talk in a couple of turns?

Most of Aztec units in our territory are slow and they can just pillage at most. Our cities should be OK.

We are only 4 techs short to get into IA. With only Sumeria seemingly in it we have a good chance of using our free tech. The only problem is GA will end soon.

Nad? How are you doing?

Nad? How are you doing?

Just finished :).

Five Take On The World Revisited - Surviving the Aztec Ambush


Inherited Turn, 650AD: we have slaves next to the northern Aztec city of Leidren, but they're not on a road so I can't save them from cavalry or knights, so they may as well continue working. Wake up slaves asleep in other cities. Persepolis and Gordium train muskets, the other three cities train knights.

IT: Sumeria renegotiates iron deal, the cost goes up from 13gpt to 35gpt but we're in no position to cancel at the moment. Dutch recapture Leidren. We lose 3 immortals that were in the open, fail to kill any Aztec cavalry although one attacking Gordiu retreats.

Turn 1, 660AD: we cannot defend our ivory and Arbela at the same time. One has to give, so musket moves back to the city. We only have one road connection between Arbela and the other cities, and unfortunately Aztec troops are within striking range of that road, so if I move muskets from Persepolis they will end their turn within striking range of Aztec MDI and crusaders. We need more marsh cleared quickly.

6/6 ancient cav dies attacking Aztec 3/4 cav on flats, only doing 1 damage and promoting it :(. Kill 2 Aztec cavalry however. Upgrade trebuchets and catapult to cannon. War weariness becoming an issue and 2 specialists have to be hired at Bactra.

IT: lose an immortal and an archer. Lose some slaves to an Aztec cavalry appearing from the fog from Dutch borders. Don't know how many slaves were in the stack, just a couple I think. Gordium riots because of Aztec units trampling all aross its worked tiles and the idiot governor reassigns to forest (0 commerce) from a 4 commerce tile, so not enough for lux rate to keep everyone happy.

Turn 2, 670AD: kill 2 cavalry, lose a 5/6 ancient cav to a 1/4 Aztec cav on flat ground, and promote it :mad:. Hire taxman in Gordium to prevent further riots due to Aztec movement.

IT: Dutch and Aztecs going at each other hammer and tongs, spares us more misery. No units lost, kill 2 Aztec units attacking Persepolis.

Sumerians building Suffrage :eek: They're running away with the tech race...

Turn 3, 680AD: Aztecs still refuse to acknowledge envoy. If they continue to refuse for much longer we'll be in serious danger of losing cities.

The action is hotting up around Arbela, that's where all the Aztec grunts are headed and we can do no more than turtle to protect the city. Upgrade a pike and archer.

IT: kill Aztec cavalry, no losses. Ivory spared for the moment, but other tiles are being pillaged.

Turn 4, 690AD: GA about to end, increase lux to 20% to be sure of no riots.

IT: more pillaging but we haven't lost a unit now for 3 turns so situation is stabilizing for us. GA ends.

Turn 5, 700AD: Aztecs finally talk to us. Take the opportunity to attack all vulnerable Aztec targets, and we kill 3 muskets, a longbow and a MDI, losing one longbow. Pillage Aztec ivory + a couple of other tiles (didn't have fast units that could reach and pillage Aztec horses in one turn). This gets us a (slight) winning peace, as we pick up wm + 2g.

Sort through cities, all 5 set to bank. Lux to 10%. We have 312g + 50gpt with 5 banks ordered up, so our economy is actually quite good, thaks mainly to the number of rivers we have.

IT: booted by Aztecs.

Turn 6, 710AD: troops head back for cities.

IT: Dutch and Aztecs continue to fight in our territory.

Turn 7, 720AD: set workers to repair some of the war damage.

Turn 8, 730AD: we have no embassy with Zulu, so g=found one for 97g...they will undoubtedly be important allies later when we fight the Sumerians.

Turn 9, 740AD: decide to take a risk and sell only saltpeter to Zulu for wm, astronomy, 53g + 8gpt. We're now just 3 essential techs away from the industrial age, and only Sumeria has got there so far, so a slingshot is still a distinct possibility.

Turn 10, 750AD: little mm point for next player, there are a bunch of workers on Arbela's wheat, they should plant a forest on it to get the city to 20spt.

Next player should have some good trading opportunities. We have 500+ gold with 58gpt and 5 banks about to complete in the next few turns. IMO we should buy physics as soon as we can so we can watch for the ToG/Magnetism broker.

Patience is still the name of the game. The industrial age will bring our biggest opportunities, so we mustn't lose our heads now and panic. Sumeria is quite far ahead but we have a very good chance in this game by pitting our neighbours against each other. We would really like the Zulu and Sumeria to have a go at each other! We're actually in a better position here than we were in the original. Although our tech position is worse, we still have a clean rep, and that's a big advantage.

Looks like a very decent set of turns.

ROSTER:
Nad
gozpel------up
Aggie-------on deck
LKendter
Hotrod0823
microbe

Looking good.

I got it.

Pre-turn - Everything is as good as it gets, so no changes.

We can buy Physics now from either Sumeria or Zulu, but it would cost just about everything we got and I better wait a few turns until we have some banks. Hoping for a 2fer without any income is futile. No deals are to expire very soon, the closest is a 44gpt deal to Zulu in 7t.

760AD - Persepolis bank -> university. Income jumped from 58 to 75gpt.

770AD - Pasgadae bank -> uni
Arbela bank -> uni

103gpt now.

I buy Physics from Sumeria for 39gpt and 648g. All we can do now is to wait for a chance to get ToG before the last civ get it, right now noone but Sumeria got it.

Btw, I just noticed that Sumeria is laying rails.

780AD - Sumeria declare on Zulu!

Bactra bank -> cathedral

790AD - Aztecs and Dutch sign peace.

800AD - Nothing

810AD - Persepolis uni -> cathedral
Gordium bank -> library

820AD - Arbela uni -> knight

We don't have to pay the 44gpt to Zulu anymore. I check with Sumeria for ToG, 130gpt and 400g is doubtful.

Buy incense from Aztecs for 10gpt.

830AD - IT - Sumeria demands TM and 38g, which they get. They probably need it with their 3400+ in the kitty. :)

Pasgadae uni -> knight

840AD - IT - Lux-deals with Zulu expires and they won't renew it at any cost? Is our rep broken?

2 cities riots when they lost the luxes. Buy spices from Sumeria for 7gpt and 15g.

Weird, I can buy furs from Zulu now and get it for 10gpt and 17g. They must've needed it badly. Hmm, looking at the map I think Sumer took a couple of Zulu cities, that should explain it. Lucky for our rep they had an extra wine.

850AD - Nothing.

Still waiting for ToG, 689g and 156 gpt is doubtful. Hopefully someone else get it soon.

Started mining hills by P-polis to gain some more shields. We should mine the mountains too.

I hope my choice on building culture building was alright, a couple of extra knights or muskets wouldn't do much at this point. Culture is good.

Got it. Depending in the situation (do we need to discuss?) I will play today or tomorrow.

ROSTER:
Nad
gozpel
Aggie------up
LKendter---on deck
Hotrod0823
microbe

Just get ToG when you see it for sale and then with some luck you should get some other stuff in the trades. Our free tech will be very important, Sumeria already knows quite a few techs in the next age and we can pray for Medicine or something they don't have. But time will tell.

I couldn't think of what to do, except strengthen our culture a bit and then started on knights. Our military is rotten already and a few more units won't help us much, but still we need to start building units now to assemble something that looks like a force :)

The next step is building a decent number of Cavalry. At this point that is the only way to fight Sumeria. We need to dog pile Sumeria, but I have no idea when we will be ready. I just hope it is before he gets infantry.

I see that we are on the edge of the Industrial Age, but Sumeria doesn't want to sell ToG. I am thinking about playing a peacful 10 turns. We need the cavalry -as Lee says- and (imho) artillery. I wouldn't mind a build phase until Replaceable Parts. But this depends on us getting a shot at ToE.

I also think we should stay peaceful for now! That is what I meant by being patient. We are in a good position, attacking too early would throw that away. Although Sumeria is ahead technologically, they are not more powerful, they are no bigger than Zulu and Aztecs. And in gozpel's turn they declared war on Zulu, ,which is perfect! Let those two hammer away. Let the Aztecs continue to hammer at the Dutch...we will catch up in tech, this situation always happens in the industrial age. Right now, I think we should complete all infra and then go all out war. For me, the cavalry rush is not a good option, it would lead to far too many losses and be too attritional to be any good. This game will be decided in the age of tanks and modern armour. I would build some military for now, but only enough to defend ourselves. Once we have factories, plants, police stations, stock exchanges etc, then we should go for a proper war.

@gozpel: building was the right thing to do :goodjob:. Only nit-pick would be that cathedrals and colloseums should have been built before universities...we're not researching anything, so happiness improvements would have been better first choice.

For me, the cavalry rush is not a good option, it would lead to far too many losses and be too attritional to be any good. This game will be decided in the age of tanks and modern armour.


I don't want to wait that late. Sumeria is a run away civ. If we aren't careful they will have 30+ tanks before we have even one.

IHT: I cancel our 35 gpt for iron deal with Sumeria. They are strong enough as it is. Instead I now buy iron from the Zulu for 36 gpt (1 gpt more).

IT: Arbela: knight->knight, Gordium: library->university.

Turn 1 (860 AD) Waiting for ToG...

IT: Pasargadae: knight->knight.

Turn 2 (870 AD) Waiting for ToG...

Turn 3 (880 AD) :eek: All AI reached the IA :eek: No 2fer here. I have to buy both techs and choose the Dutch for that. But they are not interested! :mad:
So I turn to the Aztecs. I buy ToG and Magentism for 1100 gold and 106 gpt. In the same deal I swap dyes for wines, giving us a bit of a discount on the techs (about 15 gpt). Our free tech is...Nationalism :)
Sumeria has EVERYTHING I CAN SEE (including Fascism and Communism).We can probably forget the ToE :(

The Aztecs give us 1110 gold, 135 gpt and Military Tradition for Nationalism [party]
I also sell it to the Zulu for a few useless techs (Democracy, Economics, Music Theory, Navigation and also a worker and world map). They need it to counter Sumeria. The Zulu are seriously hurting and will be kicked of the earth if the Sumerians don't stop the war soon.
The Dutch are to greedy and don't want to pay gpt. So they get nothing. I buy saltpeter for 18 gpt from the Aztecs. I also buy horses for 15 gpt from the Dutch.

I decide to go lone scientist on Steam Power. We can't get a decent pace with research I'm afraid. We might be able to steal it.

IT: The Zulu and Sumerians sign a peace treaty. Persepolis: cathedral->cav. The Dutch start Shakes.

Turn 4 (890 AD) The world is at peace. This is definatelly good for Sumeria, but otoh they can easily conquer any country they like at the moment.

IT: The Zulu demand tm and 80 gold. I give it to them. Bactra: cathedral->cav. I fire the lone scientist. Arbela: cav->cav.

Turn 5, 6 (900, 910 AD) Nothing much.

IT: Pasargadae: cav->cav. Sumeria tried to plant a spy but got caught. So they have Esionage as well.

Turn 7 (920 AD) Nothing much.

IT: Persepolis: cav->cav. The Zulu start Shakes.

Turn 8 (930 AD) Nothing much.

IT: Arbela: cav->cav. Sumeria finishes Shakes.

Turn 9 (940 AD) Nothing much. No new techs by other tribes or other interesting things.

IT: Bactra: cav->cav.

Turn 10 (950 AD) The Zulu have Medicine and the Dutch have Nationalism.

Well, Sumeria only grew stronger. 4 decent tribes vs one should be possible however. I think that we need artillery to pull it off, but we should discuss it. We now have 5 cavs and 6 knights.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/5CCCR-950ADworld.JPG

ROSTER:
Nad
gozpel
Aggie
LKendter-----up
Hotrod0823---on deck
microbe

I also sell it to the Zulu for a few useless techs (Democracy, Economics, Music Theory, Navigation and also a worker and world map).
I am quite happy to get that world map. :)

=======================

We can probably forget the ToE
The AI puts a low priority on Science method. I have seen the up to Corporation before that even have Electricity. I wouldn't rule it out yet. We do have tricky timing for it.

=======================

Got it - Keep the comments coming for the next 7 hours.

I don't want to wait that late. Sumeria is a run away civ. If we aren't careful they will have 30+ tanks before we have even one.


I wouldn't want to wait that long either, but it's a case of realism. Even if we can hit Sumeria before infantry, cavs (attack 6) against rifles in large cities (minimum defence 11.1) is horrible. Add to that deity bonus for Sumeria and our limit of 5 cities, and we simply cannot afford wars where we are taking double the casualties of the AI. We can't even afford a 1:1...we must look for kill ratios of 3:1 or 4:1 at least. Cavs vs rifles can't do that. Even with tanks vs infantry it's gonna be brutal, but that is better than cavs vs rifles (or infantry)...it also gives us more time to prepare, and post-factories we can deal with unit losses better.

Nice going Aggie! From the minimap, the big advantage we have is that Sumeria is bordered by 3 civs. A dogpile will rip into them. I think when we do go to war it should be in the oscillating style we did in the original game: attack to weaken Sumeria, then pick on the Dutch to exterminate them (weak civ, gives us control of the north so we only have 2 fronts), then pick on Aztecs to weaken, then Sumeria again etc. Zulu, the furthest from us, will likely be the last target.

I agree that WE can't hurt the Sumerians. But we don't have to attack ourselves. We can start a dogpile and counter the Sumerian attacks. That way we probably won't lose a lot of units, while the Sumerians have to fight 3 other deity AI's.

I am quite happy to get that world map. :)


Hm? I got us WM during my turns (see the screenie). Or people just got distracted by the 8 techs? :D

My opinion on the war:

I agree with Nad completely that we can't get decent kill ratio if we attack. On the other hand, however, if we don't do anything now, Sumeria will surely run away if it's left in peace.

How about we throw a dogpile and play defensively, just to slow it down? With enough rifles we can defend our cities and resources relatively easily. WW could be a big problem but we only need to do it for 20-turns and then sign peace, and let the AI fight on. If we can get an army, we could send it to pillage Sumeria.