As there was more interest than spaces in aggies latest 5CC game, here's a spinoff.

As a 5CC Conquest on such a tough level demands excellent play I will only take people who feel comfortable on Emperor level at the very least. All others are welcome to lurk and copy-play.

We will be Persia, and I have started the game already. We have a VERY good start (and I took the very first I got!), so I suggest you think up some very hard restrictions.

already suggested are:

honorable rules
no armies
no bombers (but I think fighters for bombing is OK).


signed up are

carlosMM
aggie
Tarkeel
Sir Len Taft
Codo Stejans
T_McC
Foresight

I'm here :) But I vote against honorable rules. That would make conquest rather difficult! We would not be allowed to fight an agressive war (only when they declare we can...). I suggest to follow my ruleset instead :)

oh, sorry, I should have clarified: honorable to me means no exploits, no treaty breaking.
declaring war when none of our units is in enemy lands is dastardly, but not dishonorable!

Reporting in!

I agree on the no bombers atleast, but since we can only ever have one army anyways, it isn't as overpowered as it otherwise would be.

If we want to make happines balancing harder, we could try this: No specialists unless the city doesn't have any free squares.

oh
that's a tough suggestion there!

It will make us have to focus on keeping the cities as equal as possible in most ways I think. I've never actually tried it, so not sure how hard it will be, but I think it fits a 5CC much better then a larger empire atleast. It's going to be a pain to remember though :(

hm, I think that is a bit too tough - in case we have few lux it may mean to run constant 50% lux!

I'll sign on, I'd like a really challenge (for me, I'm at emperor but planning to move up to demigod).

No specialists...hmm, that's quite a challenge...but the more fun. :D
Agree with the bombers, armies won't matter very much.

Sir Len Taft: welcome, prepare for a really hard fight here!


one rule for non-deity level players: PLEASE, if you are unsure about something, DO stop playing and report here. That way, the team can advise!

to spike the interest in this game a bit - here's the start:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM_start.jpg

and this I see after moving the worker:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM_start2.jpg

obviously, I founded our capital in place......

the opponents so far are: (from F11)
Spain
Byzanz
Korea
Ottomans
English

Great, a settler factory while we only are allowed to get 5 cities :D

Lovely, but how typical :crazyeye: Atleast we should be able to get the settlers and workers we need pretty fast. Hope some of those hills we see (or that range atleast) has iron for us.

I'd like to join, if you'll have me. I'm an Emperor level player in my solo games.

You could try something fairly simple:

No GLib. You have to get all your techs via trade or research. You get to work on your early trading Carlos. :D

(Note: Not a signup. Too many SG's already).

obviously, I founded our capital in place......


Odd question: For a 5CC, wouldn't it be worthwhile to at least consider moving the settler NW-NW? You would retain the 2 cows, and trade forests for at least 3 Hills and 3 Mountains.

In a normal game, one uses terrain with bonus food to pump up the settlement rate. Here, one can use bonus food to bring more high-shield, low-food tiles into a city radius.

The original spot will be almost entirely grassland, so post-rails the city can make at least 80 spt if it can use all of it's tiles. With the extra Hills and Mountains, I think that city would go over 100 spt. {Can't bring myself to do the full analysis of spt at size 12, 20, pre- and post-rails and factories ...}

Codo, you're in! welcome!

T_McC: an interesting idea - is that a signup? ;)
I still would settle ASAP - pump out settlers and workers, then later maybe move the city........ As it is, the city can use a lot of 2 prod tiles with food surplus, allowing the use of a scientist (keep them happy, too, by removing an unhappy guy) and get 13 shields in despo, maybe even 15, witha LOT of commerce as well.....

OK, I'm in. :banana:

:confused:

Anyway, the difference between the original spot and moving 2 NW would only be seen at sizes 7 and above. In each location one would work the 2 cows, 2 mined BG, and 2 forests (probably in that order). You would lose trade starting at size 5 because the forests would no longer by along a river, although that could be offset by mining the river plains tile and using that instead of a forest.

[OK, now I have to do the math ... I think the moved city can make 28 spt at size 12 out of Despotism, if the hidden tile in the NW is a Hill and not a Mountain. :) There has to be another food bonus (or more BG) to hit 30 spt.]

Moving now only costs 2 turns towards every city subsequently founded. Trying to accomodate a later move may force us to build unnecessarily wide in our core. Now that I think about it, the biggest problem we'd face is if we have a close neighbor. By moving now we stake our claim to that spot, and the AI won't settle to overlap our 21. But if we stay in place and only improve those tiles usable by either location, maybe getting everything else out two turns sooner is worth it. Could go either way, but I definitely feel the spot 2 NW of the starting square is better for a 5CC.

There the other consideration is that we would be jumping our Palace if we found on turn 1 with the intention of moving later. 'Twould suck to be able to build a perfect circle around our starting area, and then have our capital moved to the edge instead of the middle. We may not have much else to do with leaders, but still ...

welcome, then. I'll start the game this night!

:lol:

Let's pretend I can remember which tile I wanted to have the capital founded on. NW-NW of the start location means 2 Mountains and 3 Hills in the city radius. The fogged tiles look to be a forest, a river forest, probably another forest (in the SW) and some grass in the NW. So tile equivalence with the starting location until size 6, then possibly surrendering 1 trade by working a non-river forest, then ... whatever, we won't be size 7 for a while and will probably have more improved tiles.

At size 12, out of Despotism, I then count 27 spt without another food bonus under the fog. Three-turn Cavs/Rifles are nice.

Agreed on no G.Lib. We'll just have to pointy-stick folks for tech. :D

I'd like to join if there is still room. I am easily comfortable on Diety.

You guys have a very nice start!

Gozpel was right, he certainly sucks at generating starts! :mad:

Where are we placed on this earth? I'm really interested in that :)

EDIT: Looks like this spin off is more than full as well!!

Foresight, you are also in as I expect holiday season to create dropouts. Welcome :D

and here we go with the capital as wished by T_McC:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM_1_capital.jpg
aggie, happy about the placing? ;)

(1) - 4000 BC: moves

(2) - 3950 BC: move settler, start roading

(3) - 3900 BC: found our capital, research on 20% (minimum) to IW. i really want to see the iron ASAP, so I will up the rate the second it does anything.

(4) - 3850 BC: the road finished the worker starts mining. 100% research gioves only 1 turn less to IW :( so research stays at min, now 10%!

(5) - 3800 BC:

(6) - 3750 BC:

(7) - 3700 BC:

(8) - 3650 BC: our brand new warrior moves norht to reveal desert and forests on plains. looks like we will not settle towards the northwest for a while :lol: The worker goes to the plains-cow to have it roaded and soon irrigated when the radius expands.

(9) - 3600 BC: a barbarian shows up NW, I move the warrior into his range as it can stay on a hill.

(10) - 3550 BC: growth requires lux - 10% is sufficient. The warrior goes NE onto a mountain - i do not want the fight the 2 barbs now in view. Also, letting them live will draw AI troops - a nicely conveniet way of establishing contacts soon!

(11) - 3500 BC: another warrior, he stays as MP (lux to 0) and barb protection. Irrigation starts. The warriorscout finds wines!

(12) - 3450 BC:

(13) - 3400 BC: expansion means two cows used and shows up a spanish warrior! They are ahead Alpha, Pottery, WC and CB and have 2 workers in their capital.

(14) - 3350 BC: the worker moves to the next cow for the second city.

(15) - 3300 BC: lotsa floodplains in the north - I will now explore to the east

(16) - 3250 BC: size 3 means 10% lux for a turn

(17) - 3200 BC: settler done, lux to 0. I think we should settle on the forest on ther iver, having the wines just outside the 21 directly norht. that way, if we can#t get a city in further north, we still have a good chance to get them soon

(18) - 3150 BC: a hut and borders in the north.

(19) - 3100 BC:

(20) - 3050 BC: Pasargade founded. I choose to use the forest to get a warrior out qucikly for more exploration. The Ottomans are ahead the same techs as Spain; they have three cities while Spain has two. I pop the hut to find barbs to deny the Ottos an advantage from it.

(21) - 300 BC: one trun extra to even years. Our warrior gets killed but two more barbs go off to annoy the Ottos. A new warrior from the capital goes off scouting. I suggest to use the road to send it NE, then off eastwards. I HOPE we find grassland to the SE for two nice cities, maybe three....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1_3000BC.jpg

the savegame (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1-3000BC.SAV)

carlosMM - just plaed
aggie - up now
Tarkeel - on deck
Sir Len Taft
Codo Stejans
T_McC
Foresight

I know Pasagarde is not placed ideally, but I want more commerce ASAP, more troops ASAP, and also something near the wines ASAP that can use that cow. In hindsight I should have gone to the spot just out of the fog southeast that also has it in the 21.

The placement of Pasagardae isn't bad. Tough to have 2 tiles of overlap, but that won't matter until post-Hospitals, and then we'll have 4 Tank and 1 Artillery factory instead of 5 Tanks factories.

Having 8 flood plains in the city radius it should be possible to do an every-other turn worker farm. I don't think an every-turn farm can come before Rails, due to the lack of Hills. Either way we can quickly improve our territory and then use 1 city to grow the other 4. We can go very-shield heavy in the improvements to the other cities.

I guess we should be careful not to have any more overlap, though. Securing a 2nd lux would be very helpful. I think we have enough Hills/Mountains to have a nice shot at Iron.

:( I think Pasagardae should be moved up 1 NE tile and then start placing cities SE of the two cities in the moutain/hill area. That volcano is going to be annoying as well. :(

Hmm ... the difficulty in an nCC game.

There is no tile where we can use the cow and claim the wines. If we wanted to move Pasagardae, I propose going 2 NW. A dotmap is attached.

The 21 usable tiles for each city are also outlined. With the bonus food from the wines, I think blue dot could make 24 spt at size 12, before corruption. The pink dot can use the cow. It is built on a river hill but the local terrain looks very hilly/mountainous so I don't think we lose much by settling on the hill.

hm, experience tells that there's a lot of city moving in 5CC games. I think we should get to Immortals (if we get iron) fast, giving us the main aim of fast warrior/Immortal factories. So i wouldn't bother about overlap that much this early on! We hardly know the map!

carlosMM: I am almost sure that I can't play today. Could I be put further back in the roster?

All that floodplain and hills to the north look very inviting for the 5th city imho. Settling on the hill N-NE of the wines should make a very heavy shield factory in the later stages, as well as securing more hills for potential iron and coal. I'd go with scouting the rivers to the east for our last 2 spots.

Hill city would have:
15 river tiles
10 Floodplain
2 Desert
1 Desert with oasis
3 Hills
1 Hill with wines
3 Mountains

Without railroads, at size 12 that is (with city square production/commerce)
All 4 hils and 3 mountains, and 5 floodplains:
21 production, 26 food, 25 base commerce (12 roads, 11 rivers and 2 from wines)

So it's a bit food heavy, and might be better to move it further north, but that loses the wines.

aggie: np!

Tarkeel: I doubt we can get a city up there - the AIs will have a settler near there already. The Spanish warrior appeared rather wuickly, they should be to the northwest, and in my experience the AIs settle TOWARD the human.....

carlosMM - just played
Tarkeel - up now
Sir Len Taft - on deck
Codo Stejans
T_McC
Foresight


aggie - on hold, drops into the player order on request

I see it and got it, should be able to have it played soon.

IHT: 3000 BC
Cities look good, tech looks bleak.
Not much to do, so end the turn.
Rename warrior outside Persepolis to Earl

(1) 2950 BC
Move Earl to mountains at end of road to have a look at that river. Mainly plains and forest covered grasslands it seems, and quite a few hills and mountains.

IBT:
Ottomans start Oracle
Seville founded on the hill I wanted :P

(2) 2900 BC
Worker starts irrigating for Pas.

(3) 2850 BC
Persepolis: Warrior -> Settler
New warrior (Woody) Starts exploring to the west

(4) 2800 BC
Pasargadae: Warrior -> Warrior, we could use some MP and scouts
New warrior (Noddy) moves NE for scouting
Earl pops a hut in mountain, getting barbs (of course). Needed that hut gone since it would be inside borders of a good city spot. Spot gems

IBT:
Earl redline by barb, but promoted

(5) 2750 BC
Earl rests

(6) 2710 BC
Meet Theodora. She has 25g, Alphabet, Pottery, TW, WC and CB, as well as 2 cities. We spot a lone scout as well as a barbarian SoD (4 warriors and 3 spears)
Noddy pops a hut, as the byzantine scout would pop it the next round, and better barbs then giving them a goodie. We get a free fodder warrior (Neil), which takes over Noddy's job of scouting.
Spain and Ottomans also have TW now.

(7) 2670 BC
Earl attacks barb in forest, easily dispatching him.
Noddy returns home.
Lux to 10% for the 2 turns it takes Persepolis to finish settler

(8) 2630 BC
Spain and Ottomans have IW. We can buy it for 6gpt and 141g, or research in 10 at 10 bpt. Tough choice, but Byzants have 25g and might have techs we don't know about to trade for IW, so decide to buy it from Isa, since she has settled closest to us. Even with Persepolis shrinking and losing 3gpt we won't go negative.
Theo is willing to give both TW and pottery if we add 4gpt and 8g, but this would leave us in debt when Persepolis shrinks, and we would lose 2 gpt for 3 turns tops, which still leaves us positive. I decide to go for it, to get the most bang for the buck.
We have Iron atleast, and 2 horses within reach.

(9) 2590 BC
Persepolis: Settler -> Granary
Pasargadae: Warrior -> Warrior
Noddy redlines vs a barb, but pulls himself together and promotes on killing it.

IBT:
Byzants start Colossus

(10) 2550 BC
Not much.

Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1-2550BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/2550BC1.jpg
Red is horses, blue is Iron, black is furs and white is gems
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/2550BC-2.jpg
I suggest settling on the north tobacco next.

wow, neat, we have iron and horses close.

norht tobacco and then on that gras (?) in the fog, coastal&river, s-sw of the warrior?

carlosMM
Tarkeel - just played
Sir Len Taft - up now
Codo Stejans - on deck
T_McC
Foresight


aggie, shout out where to drop you back in!

Got it, will play this evening. Then I leave on vacation so please skip me for the time being...

IBT
Isabella threatens to declare war if we don't move, I apologise, not ready for that war yet. Byzants start Oracle.

(1) 2510 BC
A stack of Byzantines appear on the volcano to the east, 3 spears and 4 warriors. Hopefully they're not heading for us. :(

(2) 2470 BC
:sleep:

IBT
Neil losses to a barb.

(3) 2430 BC
:sleep:

(4) 2390 BC
Pasargadae: Warrior => Warrior, sent as MP in Persepolis.
Writing on minimum.

(5) 2350 BC
Arbela founded on the northern tobacco, the unknown tile to the north turns out to be a BG. Spain starts Oracle.

(6) 2310 BC
Meet the Aztecs, they know the same as the other AIs (i.e. WC, CB and Alpha), with four additional towns.

(7) 2270 BC
:sleep:

(8) 2230 BC
:sleep:

(9) 2190 BC
Pasargadae: Warrior => Worker

(10) 2150 BC
:sleep:

After Turn Report: Granary is due in one turn in Persepolis, but other than that I have no real comment. Doing good it seems.

SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1-2150BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/2150BC.jpg

Well so far we have Iron claimed, and Horses are behind Perseopolis where no one else can get them.

We are not going to be able to claim Wines with the current location of Pasargadae, the Spanish have a city where the Wines Hill will fall in their 21.

I think we will eventually move Pasagardae, but not right away. It can supply workers for a while until we have a better place to go.

That region N of Arbela is tempting, but we need to be careful to place a city that can feed itself. The map I posted earlier (with Pasagardae moving 2 NW) had a city being founded on the River/Horse hill. That spot has access to the irrigated cow and a flood plain, so can use 6 Hills out of Despotism. Poaching those tiles has little effect on Pasagardae, it can just grab Flood Plains on the other side of the river. The River/Horse hill also dovetails very nicely with the location of Arbela, generating no overlap.

If we do found on the Horse Hill with an eye towards moving Pasagardae, we could have 4 cities producing vet Warriors for upgrade (60 gold per), and Pasagardae pushing workers.

Are we playing Continents or Pangaea? I think we need a coastal city regardless, but it's hard to pick a good spot in the SE. Maybe SW-SW of the Furs? We want to pick a spot that has zero overlap, but also minimizes the water tiles. The spot 2 SW probably maxes out at 13 land tiles.

To next player: Check the MM of Perseopolis, we can make another gold. We will likely build a settler next, it would be nice if it could be timed with growth to size 5.

Other Question: We are playing v.1.22, correct?

Dot-map below: Blue dot is one proposed city, and the 21 it claims. Pink dot is a first guess at a coastal city.

I like your suggest map above, but I think Pasar should be moved soon. With the proposed settlements, that means we could have 3 luxuries, horses, and iron. Letting Pasar go for too long will mean cultural expansion from the AI.

Blue dot looks great and pink dot too, without knowing more of the map. Let's use Pasargadae for workers for a while. We don't need to worry about overlap until we get hospitals. Which doesn't mean that we should wait this long to move it.

And yes, we are playing 1.22.

Blue looks very good, but I'd scout the small peninsula (probably) in the south before deciding on pink.

We should also decide if we want to go for Monarchy or Republic, to focus on the right path. At first glance Monarchy might be best since we'll be doing some heavy Immortal warfare, but we do have enough lux'es to keep our people happy for some time I think. We should anyways try to get CB soon for some cultural expansions.

I think we need 2 workers pr city here, even though we are industrial.

yes, it is 1.22 we use!

I like the suggested city sites - dumb me, I should have pushed north with Pasar....

carlosMM
Tarkeel
Sir Len Taft - just played, on holiday
Codo Stejans - up now
T_McC - on deck
Foresight


aggie, shout out where to drop you back in!

Short-term (before our 1st war): My inclination is to leave Pasagardae in place, for now. The city has enough food to provide workers for our empire, while the other 4 cities build Barracks and Warriors/Spears. If we intend to move Pas NW-NW (1st dotmap I posted), we can't claim the Wines without a cultural expansion, and we won't out-culture a size-3 city from a Religious AI. I have to believe they will build an early, 18-shield Temple. Maybe more on point, we don't have any cultural buildings to build.

Moving Pas NW-N puts the Wines in our initial 9, but the city location is not very good long-term. Too many Flood Plains for the city to ever be able to build anything.

Medium-term (during/slightly after our 1st war): We fight the Spanish and at minimum raze the 1 or 2 cities that would overlap with the location NW-NW of Pas. The Spanish are the likeliest Civ we will fight first, since we don't share borders with anyone else. We get tech for peace, and relocate Pasagardae.

I don't think we can get out of Despotism before our GA, if we want to do an Immortal rush. We are 3-4 techs from Monarchy (I think we have WC), and 5 techs from Republic. We are currently researching Alphabet at 10%, and making 4 gpt. I think we want to aim for Monarchy, I believe most of our research will come at the end of a sword, and no WW and 3 MP should let us run our 5 cities at high population without an oppressive lux tax.

I see two medium-term strategies: Continue min-sci until we accumulate about 600 gold to upgrade Warriors, then push research to finish Alphabet while staying around 600 gold. [We have a couple of deals on-going, I believe we get back 12 gpt in 8 turns.] Buy Writing for pure gpt from anyone but Spain, to open up the tech tree. Hook up the Iron, mass upgrade and charge. [We could hook up the Iron earlier, to build some Immortals from scratch, it's all just a balancing act between cash-for-upgrades and what we have to do to get Writing ASAP. Nothing in the rule book says we can't have 20 Vet Warriors and only horde enough cash to upgrade 10 of them at first.]

Or, we could hook up the Iron ASAP and spend our economy on buying techs so we can switch gov'ts before the Immortal rush. Run little/no research, keep little/no cash on hand, but build an attack force while we wait to revolt. Once we're out of Despotism, charge against the Spanish.

I agree on the pasargade wait - raze the Spanish town and then the wines are ours.

Also, my style usually is to have more warrior than money - that way the increased money during the GA insures a fast and steady streams of built + upgraded Immortals. For the first onslaught, 6 or 7 can do! We do NOT need more than 10 units to raze two cities and extort techs if we carefully plan the war!

got it, will play tonight

6 or 7 Immortals may get the job done, but why not have 12-16 and send two independent stacks. :)

We won't have to wait long to build up a force, as Perseopolis will pull 10 spt once it gets off of settler duty and can settle in at size 6 (may even do it at size 5 with a little less food). Waiting a few turns to allow our 4 cities other than Pasagardae to grow will also net us a bit larger benefit to our GA.

We're not talking about a big difference in time, maybe as little as 5 turns. Two things can control the timing: cash accumulation, and how soon we can buy Writing. I think we can make >20 gpt while still running min Sci, so maybe about 30 turns from now we can go on the attack? We need about 12 more turns to build the final two settlers, then about 5 to get Barracks in Perseopolis, then we can do a vet Warrior/turn.

General plan seems agreed, we'll discuss further details after Codo's turn.

Canada Day today. I won't be discussing too much tonight.

T_McC: if we really will be that rich I am very much in favor of using a much larger force. But the earlier we start the more time will we have not facing Pikemen. That means we can fight more short wars to net us techs. There is no point in fighting an AI longer than necessary to
- make them give us tech
- seriously hurt their growth

once we achieve that, we better make peace and turn our attention to the next AI!
and for that, usually, 10 units, 2 spears, 2 archers, 6 Immos, are sufficient!

Since we are going to trigger our GA by attacking, I feel we should hold off until we have founded all 5 cities. I'm guessing about 15 turns to do that.

Then, I feel the trigger to attack would be when we could buy Writing. That way we can extort more expensive techs, and possibly get something to trade for the other, cheaper techs. If we went to break-even science, I think Alphabet is due in 22. We get some gpt back in about 8 turns so we'll either get Alphabet sooner, or have a few turns to accumulate cash. It may be that all things will be in place to attack with 6 Immortals, we'll see when we get there.

But we aren't looking to start a war in the next 10 turns.

Inherited 1250
Everything looks ok, do the diplomatic rounds, but we don't have any cash and from reading previous posts, I don't think we plan on using money directly to get techs. We'll use our money to build our immortals and let them do our research.

IBT

1) 2110 BC

Persepolis: Granary->settler
I move some warriors around to continue exploring.
The workner near Pas starts roading the forest. I think we want to wait a bit to hook up the iron.

IBT:
Spain starts the Pyramids and completes the Colossus in Madrid.

2) 2070 BC
zzzZZ, I do start to move a warrior to Arabela.

IBT
Byzantines start the Oracle. Byzantines start the pyramids.
Aztecs found a city in an open spot in the middle of spanish territory.

3) 2030 BC
stop warrior moving towards Arabela, because it will build a warrior same turn it grows. Leave it near the horses for the settler.

IBT
zzz

4) 1990BC

Pasargadae: worker->warrior. I don't want it to fall to size 1 yet. and we want some upgrade fodder

Nothing new on the tech front

IBT:
Persepolis riots when it grows. My fault.. I even looked at it in 1990BC and just spaced its happiness

5) 1950BC
Lux to 10%
Arabela: warrior->worker

IBT
Isabella comes demanding 20 gold. We aren't ready to fight her yet, but we're trying to save money, and if she comes calling every 5 turns asking for our savings, we aren't going to get much saved. We might want to consider hooking up our iron asap and preparing to change her tone from demanding to pleading for her life. Give her the 20 gold.
Volcano near Persepolis becomes active

6) 1910BC
Zzz, we will be able to lower lux tax next turn.

IBT
Persepolis: settler->settler
Ottomans start ToA

7) 1870BC
settler moves towards horse spot (blue dot)
workers road BG near Persopolis and road to the blue dot.
Lux back to 0

IBT
Zzz

8) 1830BC
Zzz

IBT
Pasargadae: warrior->worker

9) 1790BC
settler reaches blue dot

IBT
Arbela: worker->barracks. We'll want vets coming from somewhere and since this is my last turn, this can be overriden.
Spanish begin ToA

10) 1750BC
Found Antioch on the blue dot. We now have horses hooked up. Set build to spearman for now.

We have 43 gold in the bank, and make +15gpt. I think the next worker out of Pasargadae should hook up our iron and let us begin the age of the immortals.
Persepolis will build a settler in 2, perhaps for the pink dot

Got it.

And playing ...

cMM1 - 5CC of Pure Adrenaline!

1750 BC (0)
I'm a little disappointed we haven't further scouted the SE, but that'll get done.

Swap a couple of builds: Antioch to Barracks, Perseopolis from Settler to Barracks. No one should be able to beat us to a spot in the SE, and this way the capital won't drop to size 2.

I agree that we will have a hard time accumulating money, so I pump science to 90% to get Alphabet in 7. After that we can settle back to min-sci and buy Writing. Izzy should leave us in peace for a little while. We may not reciprocate the generosity. :)

I'm going to bring the vet Warrior back from scouting, and send a regular in his place. All vets should be available for upgrade.

1725 BC (1)
Perseopolis grows so lux goes to 10%, and we are running a 1 gpt deficit.

There is a civ we haven't met NE of Spain, sending Woody to crash the party for us.

1700 BC (2)
Ottomans complete the Oracle, and start the Pyramids.

1675 BC (3)
There is an Ottoman Spear/Warrior pair wandering around. No idea where they are going.

The Spanish have settled another city that impinges on the eventual location of Pasargadae. More to burn. :devil2:

Perseopolis: Barracks --> Settler. At size 5, Perseopolis can make 11 spt.
Pasargadea: Worker --> Worker

Warriors keep wandering. Found a Whale SE of Perseopolis, but not in a good location.

1650 BC (4)
Boy, I don't like the way the Ottoman pair is moving.

Bump lux tax to 20% to keep Perseopolis happy, and set tiles so growth and Settler are both due in 3.

1625 BC (5)
The mystery civ was the Ottomans, so Woody will go back to hacking west.

Haven't found anything else interesting in the SE, except for the anticipated fish.

Alphabet due in 1, and we can't lower the sliders.

1600 BC (6)
Osman gives us the boot.

Alphabet comes in, science to 0%. All the AI have the same techs (all visible). We make 16 gpt at 0% science.

It would take almost our entire economy to buy Writing, so I wait.

Southern scout sees Tundra, so nothing much more down that way. Pink Dot seems good.

1575 BC (7)
Perseopolis builds a Settler, falls back to size 4. Begins on a Spear, because we make an ugly 9 spt at size 4.

Lux back down to 10%, we now make +19 gpt.

1550 BC (8)
Pasargadae back to size 1 with another worker built. Having the FP's irrigated should allow us to get on a better schedule.

1525 BC (9)
Nothing interesting, just our Settler staying 1 step ahead of the Ottoman Spear/Warrior pair. They only appear to be out for a stroll.

1500 BC (10)
Persopolis grows, lux tax to 20%. Spear completes, begin 1-turn vet Warriors.

Shuffle units.

Final Notes:
We make 17 gpt, and aren't paying anyone. There is a Warrior near Perseopolis that is intended to go to Antioch as MP. Given that we have to run 20% lux to keep Perseopolis happy, we may not need the MP but it can't hurt.

After that FP is irrigated, there should be enough improved tiles so that Pasargadae can work entirely NW of the river and cede the tiles SE to Antioch.

Picture to follow.

Picture of our SE.

Pink dot has already been proposed, and is not a bad site. Yellow dot is what I see as the maximum # of land tiles for us to claim, but will have a harder time getting started and has to build an Aqueduct.

Got it. Re-Reading over the pages to make sure I know what everyone wants. Will wait a few hours before starting.

A few decisions have to be made:

You get to pick where the settler goes. I lean towards the pink dot, because it can be productive sooner, but only having 12 land tiles makes it a fairly lousy city late in the game. Wherever the city is founded, it may be a candidate for a late-game relocation when we're trying to secure Rubber or Coal.

Our economy isn't as strong as I had hoped, we can't buy Writing and still build up much cash. Not a huge problem, there are 4 visible techs to pointy-stick from Izzy. We'll just get the post-Writing techs elsewhere. :hammer:

Right now, only Perseopolis is building military. You can produce a Warrior/turn, but we only make enough money to upgrade about 1 every 3 turns. We can start our first war sooner by hooking up the Iron and building 3-turn Immortals in Perseopolis, but we'll have a stronger military for our 2nd war by building a pile of Warriors to upgrade with GA cash. Regardless how you handle it, it may be rushing things to attack on your turn.

I think we can toast 3-4 Spanish cities, and make a tidy profit. But that level of attack probably requires 10+ Immortals. We can be close to that by the end of your turns.

I think I am going to time it so the next person in the list gets to start the war. I will continue building our army, place the city on the PINK DOT because if we are going to war early/often, we will need help in every place.

Connect the newly founded furs, hook up the iron, and connec the fifth city. Maybe, make a road to the Gems, for when someone eventually gets a culture building and expands the borders.

EDIT: We should probably get a vote on what dot to place the city on. I am still getting use to this SG format and am trying to not go off on my own and do as I please. :)

decision time:

as I said before, alternating wars for a tech or two to equally slow all neighbouring AIs seem best to me. A simple reason for this is that they need to get geared up for war, too, moving troops and rushing defenders - if the war is too short for that to come into effect we have to fight less - good for us!
Also, not buying Writing then doesn't hurt us at all!

I am most definately for the pink spot - we need to grow strong NOW, not in the IA - by then we should already BE strong!

I like the pink dot more than the yellow dot. It's on a river and two of the sea tiles have fish. This compensates the fewer land squares imho.

I agree on the pink spot as well.

I haven't looked at the save, but I can only see 1 or 2 workers in the pic? We need a few more for roading etc.

Also looks like the Ottomans are next after spain, to kick out that city they intend to place in the south.

So sounds like Pink dot carries the vote. I agree, the lack of land tiles won't come up until post-Hospitals and the fish make it a low-maintenance site (can just leave the forests as they are).

We do have more workers. There are 3 standing on the tile N of Pasargadae. One is irrigating, 2 just finished roading. Might as well set the two to irrigate as well so the job finishes on the 1st turn. After that the only improvement remaining at Pasargadae is to road the Iron.

One other worker note: The units standing next to the two workers in the picture are Ottomans. By all appearances they are just exploring, they haven't entered our cultural boundaries.

Pasargadae would be happy at size 3 so I don't see a good reason not to let it grow to that size before the worker completes. When we want to re-locate it, it will be easy to spin out a worker and then hit break-even food at size 2 to disband the city.

I might look to hook up the Iron late in Foresight's turn, rather than early. Right now, Perseopolis is the only city that is producing units. If we wait until about turn 7 our other two Barracks cities can start Warriors (I don't think the build order will automatically change when we obtain the resource). I think that will give us about 12 Warriors to upgrade and maybe 2 hand-built Immortals by the end of the round, and we'll have about 300 gold to upgrade with.

Sounds good. Will have the game posted in a few hours. Pink dot it is. I was thinking about not hooking up the iron right away as well. Depends how much cash we are packing, though. We don't want so many warriors that it will take us forever to get them all upgraded.

First Clicky

Osman wants 24 gold - I give - He has a warrior/spearmen by our workers, not worth risking war with him.

England finishes Pyramids

Aztecs building TOA

Move two workers into place for future terrain development

1450

Persp Warrior > warrior Culture Expands

Byzantine building TOA
Spain building TOA
Otts building TOA
Otts building G. Wall
Worker (1) connecting iron...done in 6 turns
We meet Korea

1425

Persp Warrior > worker

Gordium Founded > barracks
Bring southern warrior to it

1400

Persp worker > warrior
Otts turned back

1375

Persp warrior > warrior
Antioch barracks > warrior
Iron 3 turns away

1350

Persp warrior > warrior
Psargad - Disease -1 pop
Arbela Barracks > warrior
Spain starts connecting their wines

1325

Persp warrior > worker
Aztecs finish TOA
Psar - disease - 1 pop down to size 1

1300

Persp worker > immortal
Antioch immortal
Byzantine building Great lighthouse
Spain building G.Wall
Spain building MoM
Spain finishes G.Wall
Spain building Great Lighthouse
Otts building MoM
Otts Finish MoM

1275
Otts ask us to leave (no automatic boot) Byzantine same offer
Byzantine building Hanging Garden
Byzantine finishes Great Lighthouse
Furs connected by road (need to plant a colony on them)
Placed a mine outside of Persp for future use///road building there as well for when we have to attack Spain...quicker movement points

Last move

Arbela warrior > immortal
Upgraded as many warriors as possible

60 gold per warrior to upgrade

All cities are connected

We need to place a colony on the furs or get one on the gems so Persp can pump out immortals in only 1-2 turns instead of 3.

Currently we have 4 immortals/13 warriors

I hope you guys weren't planning on me starting the war because I sure wasn't ready with how many immortals I had on my turn. Next person should have a hay-day with them, though.

Here is a screenshot.

The two black arrows points to Spanish territory and the one by Persp I have a road being built towards the newly founded city.

Yeah, we either need a colony or we need a cultural building to build. :lol:

Lux Colonies are good uses for slaves we capture or get from razing Spanish cities. I'm not sure we want to give up one of our Industrious workers yet. (Remember, in C3C slaves work at 1/2 normal rate or 1/3 Industrious rate). Eventually we will have an all-slave work force but I think we are better off re-claiming our population by merging our workers back into our cities.

So it looks like carlosMM will have his 6 Immortals by his 3rd turn. Only bad thing on the last turn was that Spain built the Great Wall. It would really be a problem if the AI also built vet troops, but I figure vet Immortals vs. regular Spears behind walls is still solidly in our favor.

Once we upgrade all of our Warriors, I think we should use our GA to build some Temples and research at least 1-2 techs. I don't think we should accumulate cash just to give it to one of the AI in exchange for tech.

Since we now have a 2nd source of Horses in our territory, maybe we should see if the Ottos lack the resource. If they do we can connect to their road network and not have many worries about a blown rep.

Checked the save:

The Ottos lack Horses, and the Byz lack Horses and Iron. So once we hook into their road networks we can get a good discount on tech.

Next player should check the MM, particularly for growth.

Unfortunately, the two Spanish cities that are visible are built on Hills. We should be patient and make sure our initial strike force is large enough to get the job done on the first try. Probably means go with 8 instead of 6.

Arbela and Antioch can be MM'd to get Immortals out faster.

I have it!

preturn: all OK

(1) - 1225 BC: Theodora kicks our scouting unit.
(2) - 1200 BC: Orange border spotted beyond Byzantine lands
(3) - 1175 BC: running norht to the orange border.
(4) - 1150 BC: ha! an orange warrior/settler combo shows up next to Arbela! They belong to Lizzy! Why go exploring at all??? :lol:
(5) - 1125 BC: Now is a time as good as any other - I do not want to delay our first war anymore. I move Immos towards Otto! 1 upgrade! aargh, a Byz warrior is in the way....
(6) - 1100 BC: the Spanish have a LOT of warriors standing around...
(7) - 1075 BC: I declare war on the Ottomans, then move our troops in.
(8) - 1050 BC: hm, a GERMAN town is founded nearby.... so Otto has found his way around as well. 2 Spears expire and Sinop is ours! well, rather, it is razed, as it would be city 6.
(9) - 1025 BC: I see a Pikeman in Istanbul! :(
(10) - 1000 BC: pushing towards Salonica.

I suggest to keep pushing, as soon as they talk peace we accept, swing west (use high terain!) and nail Spain from two sides!

I have intentionally left a few Immos on the roads - this way we may be able to bag a settler and do not need to fear landing parties. Keep a lookout on ships so you know what is afloat - then you cna withdraw the Immos for attacks!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM_1000.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM-1000BC.SAV

carlosMM - just played
Tarkeel - up now
Sir Len Taft - on holiday
Codo Stejans - on deck
aggie
T_McC
Foresight

I see it, won't be able to play for several hours though.

Any special reason for attacking the Ottomans instead of the Spanish?

Tarkeel: a big one, it is called the Great Wall!
But there's more: Our attack into Seville would
a) come across flat land
b) pass the stack of Spanish warriors
c) go across a river

By going for the Ottos first we can now approach Seville from the east, on hgih ground and without crossing the river.

btw, I roaded quite a few tiles that may appear useless - e.g. the mountain next to persepolis. The reason for this is - and I want that continued by all players - that fast troop movements are vital to us, and roading BOTH sides of rivers insures better use of the 1 move of immortals. We will always have few troops - make sure they can get to where needed in time!

(0) 1000 BC
MM Persepolis from forest to grassland by river, gain 1 food and 2 commerce, still 2 turn immortal factory. MM Pasaragadae to floodplain.

IBT:
Ottoman archer attacks our warrior, injuring it 2.
Aztecs start Sun Tzu

(1) 975 BC
Move forces

IBT:
Ottoman archer finishes of the wounded warrior.
Byzants(Varna) and Spain (Santiago) start Great Library

(2) 950 BC
Persepolis: Immortal -> Immortal
Arbela: Immortal -> Immortal
Attack Salonika:
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 3/4 Spear
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 1/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/4 Spear -> 4/5 Immortal, razing Salonika
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Archer -> 1/4 Immortal

Osman has MI's running around now, and is willing to talk:
Get Writing, CB and 8g for Peace, max price (he has 4 more gold).

Diplo check:
Korea has WC, Myst, Math and MM. 29g.
Ottomans has WC, Myst, Math, Philo, CoL and MM. 4g
Byzants has WC, Myst, Math, Philo, CoL, MM and Lit. 35g
Spain has WC, Myst, Math, Philo, CoL, MM and Lit. 4g
England has WC, Myst, Math, Philo, CoL, and MM. 30g
Germany has WC, Myst, Math, Philo, CoL, and MM. 2g
Aztecs has WC, Myst, Math, Philo, CoL, and MM. 6g

Looks like Korea is in dodo as well, and if we can get lit from Spain we should have a way out of this.

(3) 925 BC
Antioch: Immortal -> Immortal
Gordium: Barracks -> Immortal
Move and rest troops for attack.

IBT:
Bonn founded on the NW attackroute :(

(4) 900 BC
Persepolis: Immortal -> Immortal
Move and rest.

IBT:
Our forces are kicked out from Bonn
Ottomans start Great Library

(5) 875 BC
Antioch: Immortal -> Immortal
MM Arbela to grasslands, still due in 2.
Ready to attack next turn.

IBT:
Uskudars borders have expanded, and we get kicked out.
Newcastle (English) Finish SoZ

(6) 850 BC
Persepolis: Immortal -> Immortal
Pasargadae: Worker -> Settler. Can be vetoed, but time to move it soon.
Tell Izzy to remove her settler and warrior, and she declares. Drop lux to 10% from warhappines, at the cost of turning one worker (unmined grass, so only lose food) to tax collector
5/5 Immortal vs 4/4 Warrior -> 5/5 Immortal
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1-850BC.jpg

IBT:
Warrior SoD doesn't attack, but moves past us. We'll have to prune it.
Constantinople (Byzants) finishes the Hanging Gardens.
Spain (Madrid), Germany (Berlin) and Ottomans (Izmit) cascades to Great Library
Spanish spear and settlers land in the south, we have an Immortal there to take care of it.

(7) 825 BC
Arbela: Immortal -> Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 4/4 Warrior -> 3/4 Immortal and 2 slaves.
5/5 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 5/5 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 3/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 4/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 2/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 5/5 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 2/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 2/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 2/2 Warrior -> 4/4 Immortal

(8) 800 BC
Persepolis: Immortal -> Immortal
5/5 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 3/5 Immortal
5/5 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 3/5 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 3/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Archer -> 4/4 Immortal

Attacking Seville:
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 4/4 Immortal
5/5 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 1/5 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 3/3 Spear
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 1/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 2/5 Immortal, killing 2 settlers and razing it, netting us a total of 6 slaves.

(9) 775 BC
Antioch: Immortal -> Immortal
Switch Gordium to a temple due in 8, to grab furs and press Naissus
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 4/4 Immortal, killing Settler for 2 more slaves.
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 3/4 Immortal
Attack Valencia:
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 3/4 Immortal

IBT:
Aztecs start Great Library

(10) 750 BC
Persepolis: Immortal -> Immortal
Attack Valencia:
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 1/3 Spear
3/4 Immortal vs 1/3 Spear -> 3/4 Immortal, razing it for 1 worker.

Kills: 9 Spears, 2 Archer, 14 Warrior, 4 Settler
Losses: 3 Immortal, 1 Warrior
Elite wins: 4

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1-750BC.jpg

Military plans for the future: We have 4 Immortal coming up the west coast, along with a roading team. Reinforce this front. The eastern hill front has 15 Immortals, but spread out a lil bit right now. There must be a city in the fog, NW of the mountain. Should be good to send 4 Immortals to pounce on it. The Spanish haven't sent any counterattacks yet, only the warrior SoD which was easily decimated.

Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1-750BC.SAV)

Yikes, the way this is going, there may not be any Civs left before we lose all of our Immortals.

EDIT: Is it almost time to move our city closer to the wines?

Nice!! We can get almost all their techs for peace. That's a bonus and it can only get better :)

EDIT: Then again: a lot of the AI is in the MA already. Did we miss a couple of tech trade opportunities?

We might want to hold on setting the 5th city down.. If spain finishes the great library, we want to be able to hold it for a turn to benefit.

We could hit Byzantines next because they have so many small cities surrounding us.

Our capital doesn't grow and has a taxman. Why is that? Also...: Are we trying to get back in the tech race with our immortals alone? We could have used our free tech in the MA. That's what we did in 'Five take on the world', in a worse position than this one. But with 4 scientific civs in the MA already that chance has gone. Too bad. We missed an opportunity here.

EDIT: OK, I checked CarlosMM's save as well and see that the AI was MA there already. I have been too busy the last couple of days it seems to keep up. But we haven't made progress since and I think that's not good.

I didn't check much for trades, since all except Korea was far ahead, and we didn't have much to barter with. Persepolis has a taxman to gain us gold, it was the only city that needed more lux. Be wary for when war happiness runs out though.

This is a big if, but it might solve all our problems.. If Madrid finishes Great Library, we should be able to take it and hold it for a turn, if the 5th city hasn't been resettled yet.

I don't like such a Great Library gambit :(

EDIT: The fact that we are way behind doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to broker ourselves back into the race. Especially now, with spain wanting to give us so much, I think that it is very important to get a few cheap 1st level techs.

I rather see lux tax higher than a city not growing. Growth is key to get a more money and more shields...

The Great Library Gambit might work, but I wouldn't count on it. We can't stay at war with Izzy for 25 more turns just so she can finish the Library for us.

It looks like we will be able to move our city in about 8 turns, keep our military milling around the area so nobody else settles in our spot. We can always raze whatever gets built there, but it'll be easier if we don't have to.

Agreed the Byz put a bullseye on their forehead by settling three crap towns next to our borders. Pointy-stick victim #3 coming up! And then it should be Otto's turn. Two small cities we can raze on the first turn of the war.

I was alarmed by how fast tech was moving, but this is Deity and it doesn't seem like the AI are fighting amongst themselves. Having 4 Scientific civs in the game didn't help.

The unexpected setback was that our 2nd city had to be moved. We've been effectively OCC'ing until our GA. Now that we're picking up slaves, we can probably start to think about merging some of our workers back in to our cities. (Or making Lux colonies with the slaves.) Once we get our 3 lux hooked up and our pop up, our economy will look a lot better and we can get back into the trading game. Plus we have two (fairly) easy victims to pointy-stick. I'm not worried yet, we can get the balance of the AA with Immortals.

One other question: Are we finished with upgrading Warriors yet? We could use the balance of our GA to research a tech (like Mysticism or Math) to open up a more expensive tech for the Spanish to give us.

[Edit: It seems we are having great kill ratios. Do we want to use the balance of the GA for some infrastructure? A Temple in Persopolis pays for itself and then some, plus we need a border expansion to claim the Gems. We do have to be a little careful about unit costs.]

We have 2 veteran warriors waiting for upgrade, but one of those is MP atm. We are running very high in unit costs, so might be best to grab some infrastructure while GA is still going.

The southern cities weren't finished being improved, which hurt us a lot during the GA.

We can start pumping in our native workers soon, we have quite a few slaves already.

One reason for those killratios, is that they haven't counterattacked once yet.

Re Great Library gambit, we can always go back and grab it later, as long as it's before we get education, but then we have to disband a city first.

I know a city that we have that should be named "crap" that we always have choice of disbanding.

wow, someone here has a *very* lucky hand with the RNG! :thumbsup:
and the campaign was beautifully executed, too!

I will find time to look a tthe save before lunch - please no playing until i have ;)

Hm, as it is we cannot get a good deal (leaving us enough cash and income for unit cost) for any tech that might allow us to gain advanced techs in peace with Spain.

I'd suggest taking what they give, leaving WC out (they won't give all), take their money, too, then hope and pray Korea lacks one of the advanced techs we gain - maybe, if we are lucky, Literature or so. That shoudl ent us WC, too.

Then, a war with Germany might be an option - raze the two cities, then proceed for the next bulls-eyed lands: Byzantine! Raze raze raze, and as soon as german units walk up kill a few and make peace. Preceed with the Byzantines....

what do you all think?

How long would it take us to research Mysticism or Math? (or WC?)

If I'm remembering the map correctly, we can raze 1 more Spanish city. Are our troops in a good position to whack the city under the fog? We need to hit that city if we want to relocate Pasargadae. One more pile of rubble may get us all visible tech from Izzy.

Then our army crosses paths with the settler re-locating Pasargadae, and we hit the Germans. Two burned cities in a 7-8 turn war might get us another couple of techs (@ last), or at least 1 we can trade to the Koreans. Then we try to hit the Byz for one of the first-row MA techs.

Sir Len is on vacation if reading the order is correct. Guess I'm up.

Sorry for not particpating in the discussions so far. Work has been a nightmare lately. I have been reading all the comments however. I'll probably post some questions/observations tonight when I look at the last save.

Codo, you are up indeed!

research is not a good option I think - we are short on money. Remember, we are in the GA and plan to have MORE troops, not fewer!

Another problem is that Korean settler. I bet you a dinner that they will settle where they stand now.

Sorry for the delay guys..
I read, and reread the discussion so far. I agree that peace with the Spanish is a good idea. The GL gambit isn't worth the extended war, IMHO. I am not sure who should be next Germans or Byzantines, so we'll see. I am going to continue to build our immortals during the first part of my tenure, and then switch to some infrastructure if things are going well.

Inherited turn:

I dial up the Spanish and see that they will give us all their tier one techs, besides WC, along with their two gold. Done.

Korea will give us WC+33 gold for Literature. Its available to everyone, so it seems like a good idea to get it while the going is good. The English also will trade, ooh. and for more money.
Sell Lit to Englandfor WC+40 gold.
Then turn around and sell Lit to Korea for HR+13 gold.

Deciding on who to go after next.....

We can go after the germans, but they only have 2 cities in the immediate area. They have 12 cities, so we could take 2 and sue for peace. However the byzantines have 10 cities, and we could quickly destroy 4 of them. Will the peace talks after destroying 40% of a nations cities be more favorable than with a nation we take less than 10% of their cities? ...

I raise lux to 20% because the peace treaty would cause Persepolis to riot. I then put the taxman back to work in the fields.

Hit Enter

IBT:
wouldn't you know it. Theodora comes demanding 23 gold. I guess she didn't like having her messenger returned to her with his head missing, because she declares on us. Guess that solves who we are going after next.

The Koreans do settle where they were, but I don't think it's a big deal.

1) 730 BC
I start shuffling our troops towards our western front. Kinda sucks not to attack Germany, because we are right there, but, such is life.

I'm not sure what the workers are doing on the northwestern shore. They are building a road to the destroyed spanish town? For our 5th? I let them finish the piece of the road, and leave 2 Immortals there for protection. Also, the workers

Notice we have horses on the shore near Persepolis

IBT
A Byzantine warrior attacks our spy (Im assuming its a spy) warrior that is fortified on a mountain. It loses without injuring our warrior. Several spearman move around in Byzantine territory.

Several people start Sun Tsu.

2) 710 BC
Persepolis: immortal->immortal
Antioch: immortal->immortal
Arbela: immortal->immortal

We have what I think is a lot of workers. With no temples, we pretty much have all our first ring tiles improved, and I'm not sure what we want to do with them. We could begin populating our towns, but without any form of happiness builders besides money, that might not be such a good idea.

I continue moving our immortals south-easterly

IBT
Ottomans ask us to leave their territory.. ok

3) 690BC
Just continue to move our immortals into position to wail on the Byzantines

IBT
Zzzzz

4) 670BC
Zzzz.. still moving troops

IBT
Byzantine troops in the mountains northeast of Arbela.

5) 650BC
Our troops are in position now to defend Arbela and destroy the Byzantine troops when they change their mind about attacking. We are almost ready to attack.

Doing a round of diplomacy shows that the Aztecs and the Ottomans are the tech leaders and are about to enter the Middle Ages. Everyone else besides Korea are close behind only lacking Republic.

IBT
A Byzantine boat is on our western shores. I will move a couple immortals to intercept them if they land near our horses. A Byzantine archer comes out of the fog and attacks one of our immortals, but loses.

6) 630BC
I attack a Byzantine spearman in the mountains in German territory. I don't like attacking on mountain terrain, but they aren't fortified, and I'm feeling like attacking someone! We win.

I also attack the spearman+2 warrior stack in the mountains NW of Arbela. We lose an immortal destroying them.

IBT
Byzantines have horsemen now and they attack our mountain spy near their city of Nicea, but lose :D we promote to veteran

Spanish finish the Great Library in Madrid, everyone switches to Sun Tzu's.

7) 610 BC
Arbela: immortal->temple we need to expand our borders so we can put our workers to better use and get bigger faster. Our forces are outside the gates of the Byzantine's southern most city Naissus.. It falls next turn. We are closing in on Chalcedon as well, and repositioning to attack Sardica, but that will probably be the next players pleasure.

IBT
Byzantines drop a single warrior off near our horses. We have forces in the area to handle them.

The Byzantines kill our spy

8) 590BC

Attack on Naissus:
Elite loses to a spearman
Veteran kills spearman promotes to elite
veteran kills archer
Noddy attacks wounded spearman and the city burns

IBT
Golden age ends..
Byzantine troops start appearing

9) 570BC
Archers appeared outside Chacledon, I was still waiting for the final assault force to gather, so I delay the attack on Chalcedon and kill the archer.

Another appeared near Sardica, and is dispatched.

IBT
Gordium's borders expand. We also have furs hooked up now, but I'm trying to figure out from where. Ah they were roaded and fell in our cultural boundaries when Gordium expanded.

10) 550BC

Our forces are prepared to attack Chalcedon, but after it took 4 regiments to destroy Naissus, I'll leave it to the next player to attack with our full force. We are also outside the gates of Sardica and ready.

Pasargadae will be ready to be moved next turn when it's settler is completed.

Oh I forgot, when Gordium finished it's temple I started on a harbor. There is enough time to veto if needed.

I also positioned a few regiments near the German borders so we can swoop in there when the time comes.

Have fun storming the castle!

If I'm reading the roster correctly, Aggie is up.

Nice trading, but why did we make peace with Spain right away?

Which leads into my next question: Since Pasargadae is going to produce a settler next turn, where exactly do we intend to move it? Especially because the spot we originally wanted is still occupied by a Spanish city that should have been razed during our war.

The good news is that we are already close to Construction for Peace from the Byzantines. Whacking another couple of cities might get us 2 of the 3 required techs to enter the MA, and we may be able to trade Construction to Wang to get the last required tech. (Hopefully he's researching Republic or Monarchy.)

Maybe Arbela should build a Library (or a Temple) to get the border expansion we need to claim the Gems.

Well, the troops have been left in a very nice position to inflict major damage and end the Byz war after 1 turn. Or we could try to press on, either way.

Do we want to aim for Monarchy or Republic? Having MP is nice, but with all the river tiles we work we may be able to swing a relatively low lux tax anyway. But the big problem: We'd be paying at least 70 gpt in unit support if we were a Republic. (We're only going to get 10 units supported for free). Monarchy could be as low as 25 gpt, so in conjunction with the MP I think we'll come out ahead in Monarchy. Plus no WW.

I made peace with Spain right away, to get the benefit of her tech trades, and because there wasn't anymore real gain from continuing the war. I was then able to move our troops to our eastern borders to begin the assault on the Byzantines. I felt that was the general concensus on our plan. If I was wrong, I apologize.

I'm also not sure where exactly to move Pasagardae. Maybe I'm confused, but I'm sure we destroyed the spanish city that was in our way. Unfortunately, Korea got there before we could. This isn't a problem in my opinion. I don't remember even seeing them anywhere near us. That little outpost will fall quickly. But I do think we should wait until our war with Byzantinium is finished so that we can try to get some trades with Wang before destroying his little outpost.

I already started Arblela on a temple so that it can expand it's borders. I'm very new to SGs, and a complete newb with diety, so any comments/critisicms on my actions are welcome.

You did fine Codo. Korea is far north west. We can take out their village and take that spot. By the time they make it to our empire, it will be 20 turns and we will get peace. Right now, we need to keep any war going that we can.

Codo, there was another spanish city hiding in the fog behind the mountains. Just look at the cultural borders and you'll know where it has to be :) No worries, we can always beat her up again in another 10 turns, which we probably should anyways, which is why the workers were building a road up her western flank.

Edit: Since we're scientific, Libraries are better then temples if you just want culture, but we need the happines from temples as well, so agree on Arbela.

hey, Codo, good play! I especially like your cautious appraoch to war. We can#t afford to squaner our forces after all.

aggie is up.

We can go slow on the techs now, actually, as we can simply get more Immortals, then take the Great Lib.

I don't know if I can take it today. But surely tomorrow.

I thought the Spanish war had two objectives: Pointy-stick research and clearing a better spot for Pasargadae.

We accomplished the first just fine, and we are in a position to really benefit from the Byzantine war that Codo got started. I suspect the Byz will be very impressed with us after we burn those two cities on Aggie's first turn. And in looking at the save, Korea is still in the AA as well so we can trade with them. Plus we'll get a free tech when we leave the AA, maybe not everyone has all the first-row techs yet. Aggie could have a very eventful first turn!

As far as where Pasargadae should be moved to ... I don't think we want the spot that Korea founded on, there aren't enough shields there. Too many Flood Plains for a 5CC. Plus, if we found there the Iron will fall out of our cultural borders. I don't think we can be in a position to fight a war every time we need Iron.

I think the new city should be NW-NW of Pasargadae. Three Hills, Three Mountains, plus a bunch of forests and plains to go with the Flood Plains means sufficient shields. That spot also puts both the Iron and the Wines in our 21. Founding on that spot requires the Spanish city in the fog to be razed.

For now, we can just build the settler (not disband the city, we need the unit support) and set Pasargadae to max food and let it build catapults. When we attack the Spanish again, having a few Catapults could make it much easier to take down walled cities.

Codo didn't do anything wrong, we just didn't have a sufficiently detailed discussion beforehand to make a clear plan. We'll get another crack at the Spanish in 15-20 turns, whenever we get done with der Kaiser and feel up to a second round.

One other thing I noticed from the save: Perseopolis could use a Temple, it'll pay for itself and then some.

aggie: take your time! :)

T_McC: indeed we shoudl not settle on the Korea spot.
But there is one important thing now that Spain ahs the Great Lib: I am AGAINST abandoning Pasa right now, then abaondon ANOTHER town to keep the Great Lib for one turn.

So we should keep the town and wait to see if and when it will be convenient to grab the Great Lib. Perhaps we can poush it back to just when Indus age comes round? In that case we might get a LOT of tech from it!

Actually, I was thinking ...

Wasn't one of the sub-variants of this game that we wouldn't build the Great Library? If that was the case, I find it disingenuous to say "We won't spend 400 shields and have a wonder that expires with Education", but "We will capture the Great Library and derive more benefit than we could by building it, and not have to invest the shields".

So if we agreed not to try to build the Great Library, we shouldn't capture it either. We aren't far enough behind that capturing it is the only way we can win.

[Edit: Never mind. That discussion in this thread was between me and a Grumpy Old Man that isn't even in this particular game. But I still think we don't need to capture the Great Library.]

[2nd Edit: I'll go along with whatever plan we decide on, but if we do want to wait to abandon Pasargadae, switch it off the settler. We don't need a settler sitting around for ~80 turns before we can use it.]

We are allowed to build or capture TGL afaik. However, it is true that lately I see a lot of my SG's aiming to capture this wonder. It may be the only way to win in AG12, but I agree with T_McC that we shouldn't see that as the only way to advance in this one. That's why I didn't like us ignoring tech trade and use of our free tech, especially when we didn't know that Spain would build it first.

Otoh: Spain is our neighbour and we have a very strong unit. Two very good reason to go this route in this case.

Who is the grumpy old man?

Who is the grumpy old man?

Our pal Greebley (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=90672) .

IHT: I can only conclude that we are in very fine shape for a 5CC deity game :)
As discussed, I change Pasargadae from settler something else. I choose to build an immortal. It will be a regular one, but I don't want to switch to an improvement when we want to abandon it.
Persepolis switched to temple, Lux tax to 10%. Persepolis is put to more growth, despite losing a turn on the temple. We are strong compared to Germany and Byzantines (in fact, we are strong vs the whole world). I don't want to lose this momentum, so I will probably continue with wars after making peace with Theodora.

Attacking Chaldecon:
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 3/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 3/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 archer -> 2/4 Immortal. The city is razed.

IT: A Byzantine horse is killed by an immortal (2/4 left). Pasargadae: immortal->catapult.

Turn 1 (530 BC)

Sardica:
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 2/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 1/3 Spear
4/5 Immortal vs 1/3 Spear -> 4/5 Immortal, the city is gone.


Outside the Byzantine borders:
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 archer -> 3/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 archer -> 5/5 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 4/4 horseSpear -> 3/5 Immortal, no leader

Theodora must love us very much, because we can get Construction, Currency and Polytheism, 3 gpt for peace. :love: I don't agree however.

Turn 2 (510 BC) Outside Heraclae:
5/5 immortal vs 3/3 spear ->3/5 immortal. Heraclea is defended by a pike.

I move more troops to the German borders.

IT: The Byzantines kill the 3/5 immortal and a 4/4 immortal with 2 reg horses. Ottomans start Sistine. Persepolis: temple->immortal.

Turn 3 (490 BC) Vet immortal kills reg warrior and captures settler. Next turn we can start the war vs Germany.
Lux tax has to go to 20%. War hapiness must be gone.

IT: reg Byzantine horse vs vet immortal: 2/4 immortal. Arbela: library->immortal.


Turn 4 (470 BC) I declare war on the Germans.

IT: Persepolis: immortal->immortal.

Turn 5 (450 BC)

Siege of Heraclea:
5/5 immortal vs 3/3 pike -> 1/5 immortal
4/4 immortal vs 3/3 spear-> 1/4 immortal. The city is razed.

I make peace with the Byzantines for Republic, Construction and Currency :) I then sell Construction to Korea for Polytheism. We get Engineering, Korea gets Feudalism.

Spain, Ottomans, Aztecs, Byzantines have Monotheism and Republic. Other tribes lack techs. We can't make deals considering the fact that we will revolt this turn.

Bonn, Germany:
4/4 Immortal vs 4/4 spear -> 2/4 Spear
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 spear -> 4/4 Immortal
5/5 Immortal vs 3/3 archer-> 2/5 Immortal, no leader
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 archer->3/4 immortal. Bonn is razed.

Bermen, Germany (on a hill):
4/4 immortal vs 3/3 spear->1/3 spear
4/4 immortal vs 3/3 spear->1/3 spear
4/4 immortal vs 3/3 archer->4/4 immortal
4/4 immortal vs 1/3 spear->3/4 immortal
5/5 immortal vs 1/3 spear->4/5 immortal, Bremen is razed.

I decide to revolt now. We draw 5 turns of anarchy.

IT: Spain start Knights Templar!!!

Turn 6 (430 BC) Anarchy, nothing much on the war front. 3 Cities switched to markets.

IT: Ottomans finish Sun Tzu. Cascade to Knights Templar and other wonders.

Turn 7, 8, 9 (410 BC, 390, 370 BC) Anarchy.

Turn 10 (350 BC) We are a Republic now. We need to get markets and our cities have to grow over size 6. Germany wants to talk again. Spain could be our next victim.

As can be seen in the pic, razed cities are settled by the AI quickly. The former German towns are now replaced by Bolu and Septum.

We are doing good with only 4 cities producing. Just wait until we get our 5th set up in the correct place. Good job Aggie.

Is the plan still to have a never-ending war so we can keep up in the techs? They AI's are basically asking to give away their techs the way they are plopping horribly defended cities close to the borders. I know this isn't quite the way to go with a 5cc game, but I think we need to push the Ottomans either out of this game or close. Sipahi are a UU that I do not ever like facing. Later in the game, we will be paying a lot of $$$ to get AI's to help us out.

Do we really want to be in Republic?

If anyone hasn't looked at the save, we are losing 12 gpt at 0% science and sufficient lux tax that we only have to run 1 specialist. Under Monarchy our support costs would be 30 gpt.

The extra trade we get as a Republic makes the lux tax go farther, but we don't have MP. That makes it harder to merge our workers into outlying cities to minimize support costs, since MP doesn't suffer from corruption.

I think staying in Republic locks us into lone-scientist research and a late-game capture of the Great Library (i.e. when the majority of the AI are in the Industrial Age). If we have to keep our military large we won't have any money to trade for techs, and we really can't afford to have much WW (until we start to capture multiple lux, get to 6 lux and we won't have to worry much.)

And yes, given the troop positioning a war with Spain could start very quickly. Are we now locked in to trying to capture the Great Library? If we try to get it during this war, we won't get much (if anything) post-Education from it. If we want to wait I think we have to keep Pasargadae in its current spot.

You make it sound very black and white. The cities are still small and we don't have markets yet.

After a 2nd look ...

Republic looks bad now, but once we get our cities > size 10 we should be better off than if we were in a Monarchy. Provided we don't need to raise the lux tax due to loss of MP.

I'd just as soon forego waiting to capture of the Great Library, and re-locate Pasargadae now. We need the 3rd lux, especially in Republic, and I don't think we want to continue having to go to war to clear that spot.

So my initial thoughts are to make Peace with Germany. We don't need them picking who we fight and I can't see any of their units or cities. Then turn immediately to attacking Spain. I'd rather have the slaves than let them settle a city so I expect to attack on the inherited IT. Spain lacks Iron and Horses, so we could go for the G. Lib now.

Couple of questions: Are we allowed to form an Army? That was bandied about and I don't think I saw anything definitive. And what happened to that Korean city?

I agree to make peace with Germany. Unfortunately it doesn't look like we can get a tech from them. I must admit that I oversaw what happened with the Korean city!

EDIT: We will get gems in our borders soon (two turns). The wines will take longer. We might use a slave there to create a colony.

cMM1 - The (Ted)Jackson Five

350 BC (0)
Disband 3 Regular Warriors, they're not MP and it'll be much easier for us to get 30 shields than 60 gold. Turn lux slider to 0% and have a chat with the neighbors: Lizzy wants Engineering, 85 gold, and 8 gpt for Monotheism. We can't buy from the Kaiser for that little gold, so we just make peace for his 15 gold. Then make the deal with Lizzy. Then turn to Wang and obtain Feudalism + 2 workers for Mono and Engr.

Net: Below market price for two slaves and we get two techs thrown in for free. :) Theology, Monarchy, and Chivalry are widely known. We are behind by 1 required tech.

Now set the sliders back so everyone is happy. We have 155 gold and are at -14 gpt. We go broke in 11, so this will have to be cleaned up on my turns. Or I can leave the next guy holding the bag. Either way. :rolleyes:

I dial up Izzy, and let her know that if she gives us the war reparations in advance (Chivalry + her 65 gold), I'll find another target. (Re-negotiate peace) She chooses unwisely, and we get war happiness.

Elite Immortal attacks across river, killing Spear and capturing two fresh slaves. Capture loose worker in the west. I suspect we will have no more native workers by the conclusion of my turn.

Six Immortals sit two squares from Zaragoza, a seventh will be added to the stack next turn. A stack of 11 Immortals vector for the city in the fog. We should be able to attack from a mountain in 2 turns.

Have I mentioned that the Spaniards lack Horses and Iron? So they can't throw anything but Archers and Spears at us? :D

Now to MM the cities. Capital stays on Market. Arbela swaps to a Courthouse. Build that first, then all the rest gets built faster. Arbela will be happy at size 7, once the borders expand to include the Gems. Antioch swaps to Temple, but it too will be happy at size 7. I want the Temple so I can add a worker for the 7 --> 8 transition. Gordium will also be happy at size 7, and we should run two workers down there ASAP. Like the Harbor, need the Harbor.

Now we'll go broke in 10 turns. :lol:

IT - Everybody moves really fast.

330 BC (1)
Mystery city is Murcia. Size 5 on a desert, defended by regular Spears. :devil2:

Both attack stacks move into position.

Merge a worker into Persepolis. You know, I had this complicated routine figured out to maximize the shields while still growing in 4 turns. Only took 1 turn to screw myself up! The capital will be happy at size 12 with War Happiness and 20% lux. Two more worker merges coming.

Another run through the cities: We'll now go broke in 14 turns. I can confirm we are able to build 30-shield MDI's until Replacable Parts.

IT - Aztecs start Knights Templar. We get both a Palace expansion and a 2nd lux online. The Spaniards have quite a few troops heading for Murcia (all garbage) and a horribly misguided Settler pair walking towards the Tundra.

310 BC (2)
We lead with Noddy at Zaragoza ... and he dies. An anonymous Immortal wins, and promotes. Elite sent to avenge Noddy ... wins. We burn Zaragoza, netting 24 gold and 2 more slaves.

Two more workers merged into Persepolis. The city is happy and can pull 23 spt. If we can't make 30 spt we waste a lot on all units (we have nothing that costs 40 shields) until Knights. I only see 27 shields possible. Merge 2 workers into Gordium, and we now make +11 gpt. We can get back into the upgrade game, and broker techs.

We are down to 5 native workers, but have 30 slaves. :whipped: I actually have to be careful and plan where the native workers should be merged, there aren't enough to go around.

Attack on Murcia: The Spanish have Invention, we took a defensive bombard from an LB but won anyway. Win three more without loss, gaining 27 gold and 4 more involuntary workers. We'll lose an Immortal in the IT, but we hold the mountain for a slaughter on our next turn.

Check through the cities ... Arbela could use a native worker merge to get to size 7. Antioch may be able to use 1 to get to size 8. I'll save the other three to get our 5th city up to size 4 immediately.

Spend 48 gold to shave 2 turns off the Temple build in Antioch.

IT - Lose Immortal, Spanish stack runs toward our smaller stack in the west.

290 BC (3)
Gordium: Harbor --> Courthouse

Spanish settler pair step onto flat ground, and that question about Armies I posed becomes relevant.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1_Query.JPG

Are we allowed to build an Army? If we can, I'm going to form an Immortal Army, build a Settler, capture the Great Library and re-found Pasargadae in short order. If we're going to more Pasargadae, I feel we have to do it now. We can't keep starting wars just to move this one city. Eventually we'll have to fight someone we don't want to.

I'll finish my turns tomorrow morning EST in the US. If no one tells me I can't, I'm building the Army and moving out. (I'll even try to abandon Pasargadae by rushing workers to add to other cities. :p )

The Great Library would provide Monarchy, Chivalry, Invention and Theology. All we would be missing out on is Education, unless we wanted to let the Spanish off the hook and try to capture it later. Problem is, if that is the plan we should start to build Infra in Pasargadae. No use playing this one city short.

Yes, get rid of our junk city. Eventually, having only 4 cities producing will keep us from accomplishing a victory. As for the Army, I was under the impression we were allowed to have them.

You know what we could do, we could capture the G. Library. Obviously we need to have one city torn down so we can keep the city for one turn. Then when we get all of our techs, we give it back to the spanish and before we get education, we re-capture it.

EDIT: Noddy was a good warrior. He moved bravely into the Aztec territory when he knew they could kill on sight. *TEARS*

Regarding the army: CarlosMM should be able to tell us. I'm not going to blur the discussion on this point even more than I did already.

On moving the city: I agree you on this one. If you can do it, it sounds like the best thing to do is:
-disband Pasargadae
-capture Madrid and keep it for a turn
-disband or give away Madrid (easy future target for far away civ?)
-found new city

(oh wait, you suggested this too :o )

ahem, we may be able to take Madrid for one turn and NOT get Edu, right?

so we could do a DOUBLE pull on it, taking it AGAIN later on :lol:

heck, this game has gone too easy already - have fun with the army!

290 BC (3) - Cont'd
Darius forms army, now I'm in a quandry. How do I capture the Great Library when I don't even know where it is?

To stall, I use a slave to build a colony on the wines. Should be able to reduce the lux tax to 10%, but we'll see.

Earl (Warrior) fails miserably at attacking the Archer covering a Spanish settler, so I send in the 1-Immortal Army. Win, nab 2 slaves and now we can rush the Heroic Epic with the next leader. I think I'll get two more chances this round!

While attacking some of the Spanish riff-raff, this happens ...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1_VujaDe.JPG

He waits in Persepolis to rush the Epic next turn. And we now know who the 3rd member of the Army will be. :) Win two more battles and begin Operation Obstruction on the settler pairs wandering towards the now-vacant plains. The Spanish may be attempting to attack on our western flank, but we've got it covered with 7 Immortals.

Did you know you have to pay unit support on Leaders? Free-loaders.

Pasargadae swapped to settler. Lux tax reduced to 10%, we now make +22 gpt.

IT - Aztecs build Sistines. I don't really trust that Otto MDI wandering around.

270 BC (4)
Persepolis: Market --> Heroic Epic (rushed)

Scratch that, it is a lone English MDI wandering around.

Complete the Army. Now all I've got to do is find Madrid. Have Army Group West stationed on a Mountain, next turn should be an ambush of the Spanish troops.

With the Marker in Persepolis, we now make +50 gpt. Who was complaining about Republic? Four turns ago! :lol:

No changes on cities, but while we have some cash I build Embassies.

Aztecs: This is who we don't want to fight right now. They are currently at war with Korea.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1_Aztecs.JPG

England: I don't think I've ever seen an AI in Feudalism before. London also houses the Pyramids. Lizzie is at Peace, and hasn't met the Koreans yet.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1_England.JPG

IT - Miscalculated on the troop positioning and lose an Immortal to an LB. Does provide a Leaderfishing possibility. No, I'm not greedy. Barcelona completes the Knights Templar. :mad:

250 BC (5)
Persepolis: Heroic Epic --> Colosseum?
Pasargadae: Settler --> Worker
Antioch: Temple --> Pike

Trade 10 gpt to the Byz for Spices, and can't reduce the lux tax to 0%. Ehh, worth a try. I was hoping we could pawn off our spare Horses to them, but what are you gonna do?

Army vectors for where I think Madrid is. The Spanish will talk, but won't surrender Invention + their treasury of 700 gold. We'll press on.

Merge a worker into Arbela and chop a forest to speed Court construction by 2 turns.

IT - England and Spain sign MA vs. us. Not that big a deal, except for the wandering MDI. If we'd like to give the English something to do, we could ally the Byz against them.

230 BC (6)
Oh, our trade route with the Byz is now broken, even though we are neighbors. :crazyeye: They're the ones with the busted rep, and I get a Mulligan on the Spices buy.

Our Immortal kills one of the wandering MDI. There is still another in the south.

I think by mining two mountains I can get Persepolis to 30 spt at a food deficit.

Spend our cash to upgrade 1 Warrior to an Immortal, and to build an embassy with the Ottomans. Eventually we want to get the Aztecs and Ottomans fighting.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1_Ottomans.JPG

Alliances with the Ottomans would be very expensive.

IT - Win a battle.

210 BC (7)
Arbela: Court --> Temple

Spend about 10 minutes staring at the board, and just move strategically on this turn. I think we're going to have to fight some more to get our spot. Or we could found right now and give up on the Great Library.

IT - England will have settled two dinky cities in our back lines. :devil2: Thanks for the Alliance!

190 BC (8)
OK, I think the Aztecs are going to found a city on the spot where they are standing. No use trying to get the barn door closed, the cow's already out.

Troops will re-group, and if they are not part of the G. Lib force they will head back core-ward to smite the English. (We are actually pitifully defended at home.)

Kill an LB with and Elite Immortal, almost losing. Then job clean to a regular Spear on flat ground. I think I'll let it go this round and set the trap another square forward.

Then change my mind again and kill a Spear and an Archer. The G. Lib force moves out, the 14-HP army and 4 Immortals tagging along. It's going to take 6-8 turns to reach Madrid. Next leader gets to figure whether this is actually worth it.

Then I spend almost all of our cash to build an Embassy with the Byz:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1_Byz.JPG

IT - Everything went by very quickly.

170 BC (9)
Kill two Archers and two Spears without loss. The second sacrificial city has been founded by the English, and the Spanish appear to be settling a spot we've razed twice before.

I actually think that the Great Library expedition may not be necessary. If the Spaniards already have Education, we can get all the techs up to that point in peace settlements with they and the English.

Actually, since the Alliance was signed the price for peace has gotten less. Have to whack another city or two.

Persepolis can do 30 spt at -3 fpt. I'll leave the box full. :)

Pointy-stick should continue, as Invention is hella expensive.

IT - Aztecs dial us up, and want us to declare on Korea. Let's see how much he'll pay ... he won't and he won't join either of our wars. PASS! Now the Spanish and the Germans have an Alliance against us. And a bunch of AC from the English just showed up.

150 BC (10)
I fear I am leaving this in a mess. Spanish found the aforementioned city, next player can burn that to the ground (again). Aztecs found in an interesting spot, a cultural push on the Ottoman city already there. Next player can expect a boot order because we're fighting the Spanish in those tiles.

Win two battles against the Spanish. Troops continue to move back towards our core.

Final Notes:
Watch for fortified Immortals in the field. We can go at Vitoria with 3 Immortals next turn, or wait 1 turn and use 4. The Great Library task force is about 4 turns from finding Madrid. Maybe. You have up to 6 attacks on each turn, and then hopefully enough units to hold for 1 turn. Having our units teleported back to the core by donating the city to the Byz would be cool. Or you can just call the whole thing off and make Peace with Spain.

Best reason to make Peace with Spain is to get the English and their AC/Knights off our back until we can build our forces back up. The Byz can be bought in against the English, which should give us carte blanche to punish the Spaniards. Spain has had no offense in this war.

Persepolis is set for 30 spt, Pikes/Immortals/Trebs. I would lean defensive to begin, as we have some Immortals already guarding cities.

The blue circles are cities we can burn to get tech.

The red circle is 3 AC from the English. We will have 2 Pikes fortified on a Hill in a city < size 6, so these are low-probability attacks. We also have 2 Immortals in the city if the AC stop on flat ground in front of the city. [They cannot attack next turn.]

The lighter blue circle is our Army. I think we are 3 steps from Madrid, but I'm just guessing.

It's not that bad on the war front, the Germans should take a while to find us and we'll probably be out of the other two wars by the time they arrive.

Greate turnlog and progress T_McC :) I must say that I appreciate the way we are playing this one. Despite having only 5 cities we take the initiative in wars and let the AI suffer. I hope that we can continue this momentum even after the glory days of immortals. I'm confident however, because we have an awesome army walking around.

Thanks, Aggie.

We have a settler waiting in Pasargadae, I have the city building workers to merge into other cities as Happiness allows. Plan for us to lose the Wines in the next 10, one of those enemy cities will have to build a cultural building.

If we are intent to capture the Great Library, the English probably won't have anything to give us for Peace. This makes an alliance with the Byz vs. them more palatable. It might be worth it to wait for the first English city to be razed before we look for an alliance, I think that doing damage lowers the price for other civs to join you. If the Byz are on our side we shouldn't see many English troops, if any. We could easily last until the Byz made peace.

I would figure we can make peace with the Spaniards after the Great Library play. They may still have a pile of cash to give us and we should start to see WW from them, due to our long trek to reach Madrid. This may also allow us to end the German war before it really starts.

I would like to keep moving our troops back into our territory, I fear we won't have the choice of our next victim. It's just a matter of time before someone signs the Aztecs or Ottos against us. [The downfall of playing the 98-pound bully. :lol: ]

For having 10 war-filled turns, I build a whopping 2 military units on my turn. I would lean towards Pikes initially, Immortals shouldn't be our top defenders. A small handful of Trebs for our 2 front-line cities would also come in handy.

All those slaves are building roads over the mountains. Troop mobility is very important.

Speaking of troop mobility, once we get to Chivalry I think we should skew almost all builds towards Knights. Immortals are nice attackers but we just don't have much reach with them. I don't feel we need to bother with Horses for upgrade, Immortals work just fine for core defense against landings.

I am really starting to doubt this G.Library tactic. It seems like we are doing it simply because a few other SG's are going fourth. Like T_MCC said, if we keep razing cities, we are bound to get the techs anyways. I will try to go on and see what happens, but if troops start massing towards our borders I am taking a cheap spanish city, getting peace and warping back to the capital.

Foresight, although I agree with you that it is a bit lame, we are very close to capturing it now. I would certainly go for it.

Oh I will go for it for sure, but the way T_MCC is talking, we are getting a good number of troops along our borders. It is a group decision so obviously I will keep going.

My thoughts are that we are so close, we might as well try. All we can realistically lose is 2-3 Immortals. If we do capture the G. Lib we'll get 5 or so techs, some of which other folks don't have. Peace with the Spanish for cash plus whatever we can trade the techs for, means we can speed up our infrastructure push.

This has only meant a slight delay in replacing Pasargadae, but our spot is still available. It would be a slight push on two other civs, but we're going to have to fight them eventually.

These are the first units that came out of the English core. (I forgot to mention in my log that the MA broke an 8 gpt payment we had to the English. :lol: ) There were two English MDI out exploring. I killed one with an Immortal and the other suicided against a Pike on a Mountain across a river. [pimp] The Germans have to be north of the English, so I don't think we'll see a large Prussian presence anytime soon.

I don't think we want to cripple the Spanish yet (not burning anymore of their core cities besides Madrid). That would give the Aztecs more room and power, and we'd like to keep the other 7 AI fairly balanced. By the time Cavs roll around we should be able to think about bold strokes like killing off another civ.

One other thought: If you get a chance, after the courthouse completes in Gordium it might be a good idea to get two Galleys out exploring. We will probably want to buy luxuries during this game, and we'd like to know where the Harbors are.

Pre-Turn
Aztecs ask us to leave (auto) we accept.
3 AC England move north (1) of Antioch
1 New AC on Iron outside of borders
Ottos move settlers through our territory

Turn 1
Perp build Pike (fortified) > Pike
Group of workers north of Persp move north to build Mountain Roads
3 Immortals move to Viktoria (Spanish)
Red Lined Immortal fortified
Immortal vs AC = Immortal 4/4 AC retreats 1/4
Immortal vs AC = Immortal dies AC 1/4
Move Antioch Pike to Pas
Hill Pike to Antioch
2 groups of workers NW(1) NW(2) of Arbela for Mountain Roading
Army Stack moves (Madrid in distance)
Immortal from Pas vs Hill AC kill AC

Don't need the AC's capturing all of our slaves.

Turn 2
Spain has Crusaders/Longbowman heading our way
2 groups of Med infrantry closing on our northen front (stack of 4 and 3 +1 warrior)
Germans building Leo Workshop
Move recently fortified Immortal to Iron mountain to protect workers/iron
Immortal Vs AC > Immortal 2/4 AC Dead
Army Stack at Madrid Next turn attackable (fortify army so they don't attack the stack)
Spearman moved into Vitoria - Move immortals out of their borders

Turn 3

Korea demands 32 gold - we decline - war is declared upon us
Longbowman vs E. Immortal > E. Immortal 4/5 longbowman dead
Persp horse > horse
Antioch Pike > Pike
7 Med infrantry (England) outside Antioch (2 moves from being able to attack us)
Stacks of slave workers pound roads around Antioch
Wounded Immortal 2/4 kills red-lined AC > Elite now
Wounded Immortal 2/4 kills red-lined AC
Group of Longbowmen/pike move one turn from attacking stack of open land Immortals
Move open land stack south one where another stack of immortals are waiting on a mountain

THE BATTLE OF MADRID Same - turn

Madrid is size 12

Army Vs reg spear > Army 12/14 spear dead
Army Vs reg spear > Army 8/14 spear dead
Elite Immortal Vs Reg spear> E. Immortal dead Spear at 2/3
Vet Immortal vs Reg spear > Immortal dead spear 2/3
Vet Immortal vs Reg Spear > Immortal wins 3/4

Madrid remains

Turn 4
Persp Horse > Horse
7 med infrantry move away from Antioch now to Arbela
Arbela Temp > Pike
Aztec borders expand > wines lost > move immortal
Lux stays the same

THE BATTLE OF MADRID Part 2

Army Vs Spear > Army wins 4/14
Immortal vs spear > spear wins
Immortal vs spear > immortal wins
One Spearman 2/4 remains with army having one more turn...do I dare risk it on this turn?????????????????
I do dare so I disband Pas
Army vs 2/4 spearman > Army wins 1/14 Madrid is ours

Madrid gives 250 gold/G. Wall/G. Library

The creepy spanish lady wants peace for peace. She has 2000+ gold in the bank so I give her peace for 680 gold.

England wants peace for 140 gold. Nah, the war with them can continue.
Because of disbanding, we have lost our iron. We will have to wait until next turn until we can put a colony on it because ottoman (NUMBER 1 ON MAP) has a settler/warrior on the iron.

Now the question is what do we do. When I go to the next turn and we get our techs, the ottomans will be plopping down a city by our iron. What should I do?

Also, do I give Madrid back to the spaniards next turn or bulldoze it? I don't like knowing they will be getting G.wall back.

1 = ottoman settler/warrior
2 = 4 med infrantry + 1 warrior (england)
3 = 3 med infrantry
4 = where our settler is (I should have left him on the bulldozed city tile)
5 = where we might want to build a city even though it isn't the best place, but atleast ottos won't take it.

Give madrid to someone far away, so it's 90% corrupt. Preferably someone that isn't too far behind in tech :)

Umm Madrid has the G.wall as well, though. Having another civ getting free walls in all of their cities may not be a good idea.

Well this turned into a colossal mess. Tamuin's borders expanded over the spot I wanted, and the Ottos had settlers running in circles long enough to put is in a real pinch. Without a war any city we found will have to be moved again, we can't get 21 tiles (even 12 is a stretch). Now that I'm thinking about it, I should have just founded the city last turn, and we could have built a settler from it, disbanded and re-founded on the spot.

Can we block all the roads off of the Mountain? The Ottomans obviously can't found on a mountain, and if they step into our territory they are declaring war by settling. They won't settle on the forest with the spear on it, that's too close to the Aztec city. Square #5 is lousy, but probably the best we can do. I think this square particularly has to be blocked, because I think the Ottos would settle on it next turn.

Are we ready for a war with the Ottomans? I think our preference should be to go to war against the Aztecs, with the Ottomans as allies.

If we wanted to be out of the English or German war we can probably sell them tech at a discount to be done with them. Doesn't sound like they are posing much of a threat yet, certainly not enough to chase alliances against them.

As for the Great Library, if we get Education definitely abandon it. If not, we could donate the city to the Byzantines. We aren't going to war with them anytime soon, and we get a free teleportation of our army back to Persepolis. I would probably be inclined to burn it down regardless, we'll have gotten almost full benefit out of it and we don't need to try the Great Library elevator trick.

Turn 5

G. Library gives us Theology///Chivalry///Printing Press///Education///Gun Powder

No one ahead of us in techs.
13 horsemen outside of Madrid
Spanish won't give us cash to have it back so I bulldoze it.
Persp Horse > Cathedral
Horse Vs MDI (england) Horse Retreats MDI = 1/3
Horse Vs MDI = Horse dead MDI = 2/3
E. Immortal 3/5 vs MDI = E. Immortal 3/5
Move one Antioch pikeman to mountain so the next turn we won't lose our slaves
Army + one immortal from Madrid I move into Spanish territory trying to avoid the 13 horses
Saltpete pops outside of Persp borders

Turn 6
Immortal on defense vs German Horse = Immortal win 1/4
Same immortal vs German horse = immortal lose Horse 2/3
Army vs 1 German horse = Army win 2/14 (spanish and germany have a ROP)
Army gets auto move by spanish

Spanish declares war on Aztecs...hehe you know what that means

Antioch Horse > horse
Gordium Courthouse > market
Byzantines building Cop Ob
England Peace treaty = We give 140
Stack of 9 Immortals move into Tamium territory


Turn 7

Aztecs ask us to leave. Nope, we need our 5th city. War is declared.
Another spain auto to leave. We cannot get our Army back so I fortify.
Peace treaty with Germany for 25 gold --- they have 9 horsemen outside of our borders --- getting our 5th city up is more important
9 Immortals on the mountain next to Tamium

Turn 8

Arbela horse > market
English building Leo workshop
Elite Immortal vs reg spear (tamium) = Immortal 1/5
Elite Immortal vs reg spear = Spear 1/3
Elite Immortal vs reg spear = Immortal 4/5
Bactra Founded (forgot to mention I put the settler with a pikeman/Immortal on the spot we wanted the city)
Bactra rushes temple

Turn 9
Bactra Temple > Barracks
Saltpeter connected
Workers build some roads and irrigate around Bactra

Turn 10
Byzantines building JS Bach Cathedral
Worker moves
3 turns until Bactra culture increases
Byzantine have Music Theory/Astronomy

Urfa (ottomans) now have OUR wines in their territory

We currently sit at 1029 gold and 64 gpt. Not much I can really say besides let's get ready to have Aztecs against us. Maybe we should spend the 600 or so gold to get ottomans to help out.

My zipping program is messed up and won't reinstall. Sorry for the biggy download.

Excellent work.

But this concerns me ...


Stack of 9 Immortals move into Tamium territory

...Aztecs ask us to leave. Nope, we need our 5th city. War is declared.


Now, granted we are a war-mongering bunch, but I prefer to have honorable declarations of war. We don't have a good reputation to begin with, but that move should prevent us from ever being able to sign an ROP in this game. I doubt it would have been much of a detriment to our war effort to declare war first, then move into Aztec territory. This is more of a "personal style" criticism than anything else, I don't think we agreed not to do this in this game.

So, are the Aztecs at war with Us, Spain, and Korea? We may not need the Ottomans on our side, except simply to keep them off the Aztec side. But it can't hurt to start a furball on our half of the continent.

We are currently at war with Korea and the Aztecs. Korea won't talk, but it didn't sound like we saw any units from them. I doubt they can buy anyone in against us, but we don't need phony wars, we fight enough real ones. :lol:

We could buy the Ottomans in fairly cheap, and pay gpt. That way if they renege we save money. The other dirty trick is to try to combine the MA with a gpt tech purchase, that way we also get a rebate on tech if the war ends early.

MM note: We have to get ahead of Urfa to re-claim the Wines. The next build could be a rushed Library (we are Scientific, remember?). Leaders could go for Cathedrals, until we want to replace our Immortal Army with a Knight or Cav Army. Then the Army can be disbanded to rush a building.

Also note Persepolis should come off the starvation diet. 30 spt is still a nice number, but we can build 3-turn Knights while restocking the Granary.

Antioch will riot next turn.

The funny thing is: When you asked about what to do with the city placement, I was going to suggest (somewhat tongue-in-cheek) that you declare on the Aztecs, because we'd been at war with everybody else and I didn't want Monte to feel left out! :rotfl:

50AD and we've already fought everyone! We may not be the biggest, baddest civ. But we think we are! :spear:

Actually, T-MCC I moved them into the Aztec territory without thinking about declaring first. Then when the next turn came around, I thought Uh-oh, but didn't want to hold off the attack any longer. Basically, it was a dumb move on my part, but since I don't think you guys want a player who re-loads the game when something goes wrong, I just let it be.

Aztecs and Korea are against us. Spanish is against the Aztecs. I haven't seen a Korean unit or city the entire 10 rounds.

Yeah, that move is rarely necessary or even terribly advantageous. It's usually just being a little sloppy.

On another front, next up (carlos) shouldn't be shy about merging our native workers into cities that can receive them happily. I count 27 slaves around Bactra alone. We have 36 slaves overall.

We should also look to get a cheap Library in Antioch when it is convenient, we want to stay ahead of Septum culturally so we can have access to all of our Hill tiles.

I forgot to check, but I am sure we don't have embassies with everyone. Does anyone know the exact number for how many slave workers it takes to create a road, mine, and irrigation on each type of terrain. I was sitting there, thinking 14 slaves will create a road on this mountain no problem. It gets to the point where I have 5 slaves left on the tile, it says 2 turns until completion, so I keep clicking ROAD and it remains at two.

You will notice I put a stack of workers by bactra. Far more than needed to create a road. Watchout because the Aztecs could be running through the lands any turn.

Slaves work at 50% the rate of normal (non-Industrious) workers. [They not only nerfed the Industrious advantage, they closed the loophole where the slaves of an industrious civ also worked at double-speed. :sad: ]

Flat ground: 6 slaves to road in one turn.
Hill/Forest: 12 slaves to road in one turn
Mountain: 18 slaves to road in one turn.

Irrigation is 8, mining flat ground is 12, mining a Hill is 24, mining a Mountain is 36.

Spanish won't give us cash to have it back so I bulldoze it.
AIs will now only give cities in peace talks, and won't ever give anything for a city, even a deal that was ok before you added the city. IIRC this was fixed back in 1.29 or before.

Oh. I always thought the rule was they will give you $$$ if it has more Civilians of theirs in than yours + if it has a wonder.

I don't have access to CIV, but the turnlog really is an interesting read. I agree with T_McC about the Aztec war declaration. It is a widely accepted rule in SG's to declare outside the borders. But what is done is done. I agree with the library and merging a few native workers in the cities.

Korea was at war with the Aztecs on my turn. If you didn't see a peace announcement before we declared on the Aztecs, they may still be at war.

We can't tell the diplomatic state between Korea and the Aztecs because we are at war with both. [Another little change in C3C (IIRC).]

How far do we want to push the Aztecs? I think they are the biggest civ on our side of the continent, so bloodying them up a bit would be nice. And if we are their third war they are probably close to gassed already. We have enough cash to upgrade our 4 horses, so we do have a mobile attack force. Like Aggie, I don't have access to the game right now so I can't see how far we are from the Aztec 1st ring or capital. If we keep the other civs around 7-8 productive cities each, we just may win this thing. :)

If we keep the other civs around 7-8 productive cities each, we just may win this thing.

I have been following this one, and this one is already in the bag. Your economy is great due to no native workers. As you keep nailing cities the AI will waste time building settlers rather the buildings.

An LK series game was a German 5CC that didn't even start fighting till Panzers. That was a win. You are way ahead of that game for pace.

The Aztecs are far far away from us. At least 10 turns. I think that we should now raze a few Byzantine cities. We could also try the Ottomans, but their military is stronger than ours.

As long as we can keep up in tech by pointy-stick or regular 2fer trades until rails things indeed look great.

LKendter: I agree, this one really should be in the bag unless some AIs strikes an incredible RNG roll and suddenly grows to a big power.
Even then it should bw won.

But that can only be achieved by staying focussed. We still can't allow to miss trade deals or war opportunities...

I think the Aztecs are fairly close, we share a border with them north of Bactra. With the caveat that I can't look at the map right now, I think it should be possible to hit another Aztec city or two. May be better with Knights than Immortals, as I do fear that we have a 7-8 tile walk ahead of us.

I'm not sure we want to attack the Byzantines right now, at least until we finish with the Aztecs. (I'd pay Korea to go away, then sell them a tech for cash. Once they'll talk we can probably make some money off of them.)
I think it would be useful to take a survey of the AI's to see how big each of them are. That would help us make coherent plans. The English are the easiest victims, but we owe them peace for >10 more turns. It would also be nice to trim the Ottomans a bit, especially if it is possible to deny them Saltpeter.

It is either the aztecs or ottomans that appear to be the largest. The byzantines appear to be the most advanced and spain is almost out of the game. Germany and korea are unknown as of right now.

This declaration of war before entering borders, even though I know you should do it, it isn't a natural habbit and that is where my SG noobness comes in. Hopefully, that will be our one and only mistake. Also, we have almost all the civs around our ring except germany and korea from what I see. This means ROP won't be a huge concern.

Anyone realize that we have an amazing start? Horses, iron, saltpeter, wines, gems, and furs. There could be oil or rubber down on the southern tundra tip. We are pretty well set until modern age.

Yeah, I think this is one of the best starts I've seen for a 5cc, and a very good one in general. We would have had several sources of both iron and horses very early for trading if we had more then 5 cities :)

BTW; are you playing carlos? Didn't see a "got it"

oh, sorry!
yes, that was a got it.

But I have had a very busy day, and today is no better, so it will be evening GMT before I post.

Just wondering. I've never won a 5CC domination game on my own. I can never keep up the momentum long enough. Cities get rebuilt, and the larger AIs run away with technology and by sheer numbers.

Now, I agree, it looks like we started very well, but how are we going to keep up the momentum? Can you "conquest" with short wars, while the AI keeps resettling?

One of the reasons I was looking forward to this game was learning how to deal with the mid-late game issues.

preturn: mm Antioch with Market still in 4 and one taxman. Germans give 53 Gold for PPress - we'll

never see more for that, so I take it.

(1) - 70 AD: Cathedral gets completed in Persepolis, MM from starving to slow growth and 25 shields as

25x3=75 is a good way to prodcue 70 shield Knights.

Ottomans and England are gorwing in power and culture - we MUST do something about that soon. I'll move into attack pos on the Ottos and see for a few turns how the Aztecs develop.

(2) - 90 AD: nothing much

(3) - 110 AD: grrr, Lizzy demands 76 Gold - hell no! there's that little nice town to raze down south!
and our army is cought in spanish isolation: when it tries to move out it gets kicked - right back!

OK, upgrade the horsies to Knights, here we come, Lizzy!

(4) - 130 AD: another try, another kick back. Spain establishes an embassy. An English LBM shows up
:lol:

(4) - 150 AD: Market in Antioch, due to the war happiness we can build Knights in 5!
we are besieged :lol: 1 aztec Pike, 1 English Pike, 2 English AC, 1 English Knight, 1 English warrior, 1 English LBM - what a force! All dispatched easily, except for the AC and Knightthat is sent packing at 1 HP. We do lose 1 Immortal though. Another one proves to be a really fearles fighter and kills the warrior. So great a military genius must become a leader! Antioch will go to wealth for one turn, then we can rush a Cathedral (I know, I know, but until we can disband the Immo army for a good use it takes too long!)

Spain has founded a city that closed the gap - our army will be free next turn. I mismove a Knight and have only 1 to attack Leeds this turn - oh well, I'll wait.
For 44 per the Byzantine army is set in motion towards England. The turn they break the alliance we can make peace with Lizzy and fall into Theodoras back :mwaha: (how I miss that smiley).

(5) - 170 AD: I can't believe it! That English town in the south has a SECOND vet LBM in it that kills a Knight! And the 1 HP Ac and Knight try to kill a 2 HP Immo across the river, both losing and promoting him to elite.

Spain joins Byzanz vs England - good good!
with Achamaenes out of the way - he died falling off a scaffolding on Antioch Cathedral) our troops look for targets - but none present themselves :( WE attack Leeds though, with Knights vs Spears.

Baaaaaad choice! We win one, but the second Spear goes to 1 HP and kills our Knight. aargh!
Another Knight - what ARE they good for anyways? - reatreats from Reading. :eek:

(6) - 190 AD: The Ottomans dislike Spanish and thus join the English in their fight to exterminate that language from the earth.
Byzanz has dropped off a single Knight next to Leeds. Either we take the town now with a 3 HP Knight or they might take it. I decide to think again.... good chance Englang rushed a new Spear... I hold the attack.

(7) - 210 AD: oh man, a lot of ship traffic around the English towns and the Byz Knight runs off - what a coward!
I kill a spear there - sure enough there's another under it.

(8) - 230 AD: miraculously, the Bzy Knight keeps running. Alright, then we raze that town soon.
Reading loses a Spear, but AGAIn achieves a 50% kill ratio agains tour Knights! This is sick!
Suddenly, there is a trade opp out there: Spain aquires Astro, and Germany Chemistry. Both Ottos and Byz have MuTheo, Chem, Astro and Banking (!). Sadly, all techs are extremely expansive: the Ottos e.g. ask 1163 cash and 5 per for MuTheo!
Hell no: Spain wants all gold, 39 per and Horses for Astro :lol:

Hm, stealing riskily is almost 900 Gold - I do not like this!

(9) - 250 AD: Otto the man has too much trust in his mne and demands 72 Gold. Well, a free for all :lol: One of his Knights and two MIs impale themselves, but he kills a Pike and two Immortals, also taking a stack of workers prisoner - just to expose the for recapture. Oh well.

a few Ottos killed, mostly obsolete units. We face Muskets now :(

(10) - 260 AD: a LBM and MedInf get piked, but another MedInf kills our Immortal - across the river on a hill. Grrrrrr! Somehow, 4:4 is a sure win for the AIs, but 5:4 is a sure loss for us: our army loses 7 HP killing an exposed regular Musket. Bah!
But lo! and behold! I want to move a Knight and Pike and Immortal by Bolu, misclick, and our tough Elite Immortal kills the defending vet Musket and spawns a leader :lol:
I try my luck again with the Knight, he removes a reg Musket and no more Bolu!
And because I am so lucky right now I use a 3/4 Knight to sink the Galley in reading - which *sadly* results in the destruction of the entire town :hmm: ;)


We can PAY 180 for peace with the Aztecs right now (I don't think so!).
We can get peace from Lizzy, so if the Byz cheat us on the alliance we can actually gain something from Lizzy.
We have the initiative on the Ottomans, but should e carefull about a push - let them and the Spanish continue killinge ach other!
I'd recommend changing armies now - we are running low on fresh elites!



Now, as has been pointed out we shoulds tart killing civs soon - not a fun thing to do when they have Rifles. At the same time we may not give the others room to expand. Tough! We are a spectator right now, powerfull and - I hope - patient. Let's see if there's a civ out there we can soon bring to its knees while advancing onto another.

the Aztecs have grown to a mosnter, btw - I think they have really stuck it to Korea. Maybe there's even a tiny island with a last Korean outpost on it or so - otherwise I expect we will lose a neighbour soon!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1-260AD.SAV


please, no play before we talk about mid-term strategy!

Yes, this immortal army did us well, but we need a new one. So what is it going to be? A knight army or we wait for calvary? Obviously, I think the choice will be Knights because we cannot be peace loving hippies for that long.

We really need peace with one of the huge nations (aztec/ottos). We are in a tough poisition because whatever empire we take out, the other one will become even stronger. We almost have to hurt the large empires and hope the other smaller ones grow a bit. Then we start chopping them down equally.

While I appreciate an enthusiastic SG turn, did I miss a memo? Are we playing Defiant 5CC Conquest? :lol: We're at war with the three largest civs at the same time.

Judging by the map, it's pretty obvious we aren't going to be doing any damage to the Aztecs anytime soon. Can we make peace and get them to fight the Ottomans with us? [It looks like 35 gpt will get an Alliance, above the 9 gpt for peace. Unless the Aztecs found a crap city near us, we're going to have to pay them to stop the pseudo-phony war.] We really want the two of them fighting. By the log the Alliance against the English is working, and we're not seeing a lot of English units.

Do we know where Korea is yet? We are at war with them after all. :crazyeyes:

The amount of War Happiness we have is rather amazing. We can turn lux down to 0% and not have riots.

While 25 spt x 3 is a good way to build 70 shield Knights, so is 24 spt x 3. And the food box fills up quicker. Once we have the box full, Persepolis can go back on 30 spt/-3 fpt and build Muskets or Trebs, if we want some defense. I think we do. Artillery multiplies kill ratio and that's what we need.

I agree that we should build a Knight army now. Disbanding the Immortal Army is worth 100 shields towards a building, likely a Cathedral in either Gordium or Arbela.

We still have 4 native workers. I count at least 37 slaves, and we're at the stage where we are building roads on tiles we can't use. Next leader should look to merge our natives in somewhere they can be happy, it'll net us almost 20 gpt.

Once the Byz break the Alliance (or the 20 turns runs its course) we can look for a discount on a 2-fer or 3-fer. The Germans must be researching Education, we can't get much of a discount on Chemistry using the tech. Spain has Astronomy but not Chemistry, Monte has Chemistry but not Astronomy.

I think we might have to settle down for a short while. We actually have a fairly puny army and we need some time to re-build. I also note we have a sum total of 4 units defending our 5 cities. :eek: Maybe end the war with Monte. Or not, it's mostly phony. I would just like to have the Ottomans and Aztecs fighting. The way it is now the two of them will probably split up Spain, and we've got an even bigger problem down the road. We have enough troops to seige Urfa and maybe toast another Otto city (either Mugla or Uskudar, both are good cities for the Ottomans). I would not be anxious to go running off against the Byzantines right now. Once we re-build our armed forces (we only have 4 Knights and 9 loose Immortals) we can pick another victim.

What I see is a gigantic opportunity to tech trade!

-Germany has Chemistry, but lacks Education
-Spain has Astronomy
-The Aztecs have Chemistry
-England and the Byzantines have Banking, Astronomy, Chemistry
-Ottomans won't talk
-Korea is backward

So above everything we have to get ourselves a 2, 3 or 4fer here. With 65 gpt and 1165 gold this should be no issue whatsoever.

Imho that makes our choices easier. I vote for peace with the Aztecs (combined with a good tech deal) and then get a dogpile vs the Ottomans going.

I looked again and better this time. We have to pay a lot for Chemistry to the Germans (Education, 60 gpt and about 200 gold). But we can then buy Astronomy from Spain (probably in a deal where we sell horses to them) and sell Astronomy to the Germans again, giving us a lot of gpt back. We then might get Banking from the English a bit later with a pointy-stick discount (after razing Leeds).

There would be no need to trade with the Aztecs. So also no immediate need for peace with them. But it might be wise to MA with the Ottomans OR Aztecs vs the other. Joining the Ottomans may be better, as they are our neighbours.

When we have banking I vote to get banks first and after that concentrate on military again. We shouldn't forget to advance in tech. The way things are going we can profit hugely from our free tech slingshot.

I don't see us making a big move before rails/cavalry/artillery/infantry. But provided that we are about equal in tech around that time that will be our 2nd golden age.

Or you could trade for Banking from the English. Then Banking + Education to the Germans for Chemistry and then Chemistry + Banking to the Spanish for Astronomy for a 3fer. I'm not sure how expensive Banking is (didn't actually check the save) so this may or not be possible. Not sure how you could get a 4fer though :confused:.

Pointy stick always works though :D.

While 25 spt x 3 is a good way to build 70 shield Knights, so is 24 spt x 3. And the food box fills up quicker. Once we have the box full, Persepolis can go back on 30 spt/-3 fpt and build Muskets or Trebs, if we want some defense. I think we do. Artillery multiplies kill ratio and that's what we need.
I saw that, too, later [cry]

Korea appears to be BEHIND the Aztecs! Check F8 and you will see what I think is clear indication someone is giving Korea a hard time. Can only be Aztecs!

one little problem here: we are at war with the ottomans, too, so we must end that fast first.

I am very wary of the trading - just check how little Spain is willing to offer for horses :eek: But the next player should do it anyways.

carlosMM - just played
Tarkeel - up now
Sir Len Taft - on holiday
Codo Stejans - on deck
aggie
T_McC
Foresight

I see it and will have a look around, but no playing yet :)

Firstly, @Yom - Education is a pre-req for Banking, so we can't trade both to the Germans.

Secondly, I would be leery of trading a resource to the Spaniards. They are at war with the Aztecs and Ottomans, and would seem to be going the way of Korea. I think we'd like to keep our rep intact.

I'd have to assume Germany will discover Education in the next couple of turns, they seem to value it so little. Unfortunately I also doubt we can re-coup gpt we give them for Chemistry by selling them Astronomy. Gold per turn paid to the AI often seems to disappear down a long, dark hole. [I can only guess that the AI adjusts sliders everytime it gives/receives a gpt payment, or maybe it just runs insane deficits all the time.]

Agreed on pushing banks and trying to fight defensively until we have Cavs. Or until our banks complete. :) We may have to make a choice between getting the Aztecs and Ottomans to fight and making the tech brokerage, we may not have enough money to go around.

Yom's 2nd proposal sounds better. But then we should risk an extra turn and try to raze Leeds first. This will lower the price. I don't think that we should risk it to wait longer than that (one turn).

I agree with aggie's proposal


Tarkeel, go ahead please :)

Well, I think we can get a 3-fer (Banking/Astronomy/Chemistry) out of this but ...

Let's remember we have an alliance against the English with the Byz. We'll have to sign many more MA's in this game, so I don't think we want to break the first one we sign. The English are not a threat to us yet, we can wait for the Byz to break the alliance.

The Ottomans appear to me to be the real threat, especially if we can't make peace with the Aztecs. If the Ottos or Aztecs could put together about a dozen Knights, this game could be over in the next 10 turns. We are that thin on defense. First let's make sure we don't lose.

I didn't see the MA with the Byzantines :(

OK, we have 14 more turns of war with England if all goes according to plan. Let's at least get Chemistry and Astronomy, by dealing with Germany and Spain (possible without selling horses, but I don't think they are gone in 20 turns).

We are able to make peace with the Aztecs for Astronomy I'd say. And we should be able to get a MA with them vs the Ottomans.

Have been looking at these trades for a bit now.. Horses to spain is worth 36 gpt to them, they just don't have the gpt to pay it.

Spain: Astronomy for 1149g, 21gpt and horses. We should probably reinforce the traderoute to them though.
Aztecs: Peace, Chemistry and alliance vs Ottomans for 79gpt and 749g.
Germany: Chemistry for Education, 5gpt and 1165 gold
Byzants: Banking for 66gpt, 1165g

The spain and Germany deals are combineable, but the others are too expensive. Techs will only be worth less when we buy them though, as I think everybody knows everybody now. Might open up some trades when/if byzants make peace with England.

Aztecs: Peace, Chemistry and alliance vs Ottomans for 79gpt and 749g.
Are you planning to sign peace and an alliance as one deal? This is very dangerous as the Aztecs will declare war on you as soon as the alliance vs. the Ottomans ends.

That is part of the charm of the deal Lee ;) They will also break the 79 gpt part. However, this deals looks like it isn't happening though.

I would heartily recommend not to make the Military Alliance a condition of Peace. We have gotten into a bit of a bind at this point in the game by allowing other people to choose when we get involved in wars. Not only is it possible that the Aztecs automatically declare war on us if they make peace with the Ottomans, we would declare on the Aztecs by making peace with the Ottomans.

I really don't think we want to commit to a guaranteed 20+ turns of war against the only two civs that can hurt us. We should not be getting a discount on tech by purchasing at the Peace Table, nor should we be getting some sort of discount on the Alliance. I wholeheartedly agree with trying to be sneaky, we should tie the tech purchase to the Alliance, but not the Peace Treaty.

Can we buy Banking from the Aztecs? If so we could flip Banking to Spain for a discount on Astronomy, and send both Astronomy and Banking to the Germans for Chemistry (once the discover Education, which should be very soon given how little they value it in trade).

T_McC, I agree that an MA shouldn't be part of a peace deal. EDIT: They should be separate deals, but both should be made imho.

But the Aztecs DON'T HAVE Banking. Only the Byzantines and the English do. And maybe the Ottomans, who won't talk.

The Byzantines don't want to sell it and the English, well we have to stay at war with them. So in my book we only can get Chemistry and Astronomy. Imho it would be foolish to not take this chance. Waiting for cheaper techs is not the way to advance.

OK, we can only get two techs from this round. Agreed that we want the Ottos and Aztecs fighting, and buying tech in the MA purchase gives a great potential for an inadvertant discount. We shouldn't have to give Spain much cash to swap Chemistry and Astronomy.

Then we can get Banking at a discount from Liz when the Byz break our alliance. (and give us 44 gpt back.) :)

(0) 260 AD
Turn lux down to 0%.
Horses to spain is worth 36 gpt to them, they just don't have the gpt to pay it.

Spain: Astronomy for 1149g, 21gpt and horses. We should probably reinforce the traderoute to them though.
Aztecs: Peace, Chemistry and alliance vs Ottomans for 79gpt and 749g.
Germany: Chemistry for Education, 5gpt and 1165 gold
Byzants: Banking for 66gpt, 1165g

Start trading:
Germany: Chemistry for Education, 5gpt and 1165 gold
Spain: Astronomy for Chemistry, Horses and 17gpt.
Aztec: Peace for 10gpt
Aztec: Alliance vs Ottomans, 20g and 7gpt for Astronomy
Germany: 700g for Astronomy
We have 819g and 54 gpt, down banking and MT

Rush market in Bactra, will disband army there next turn to Cathedral.

IBT:
Pike defends vs LB, loses 3 hps but becomes elite.
Immortal then defends vs MDI and wins.
Lots of reinforcements in Urfa
Ottomans start JSB, Germans start Copernicus
Aztecs capture Toledo, new capital is in Santiago

(1) 270 AD
Antioch: Knight -> Courthouse (It's losing 3 shields and 6 commerce, and even gaining 1 shield will speed knights by 1 turn)
Bactra: Market -> Cathedral
Aztecs gained Music Theory this turn, but nobody to 2fer it to.
Disband army in Bactra. Form new Army in Antioch, load 3 knights and move towards wine hill.
Attack York with knight, razing it for 1 worker. Lose 1 hp.
Lux up to 10%
MM Persepolis for some more growth

IBT:
Ottomans and Aztecs start JS Bach

(2) 280 AD
Persepolis: Knight->Knight
Move Army to wine hill and let our defenders go home to rest.
MM Arbela
Upgrade spear in Persepolis.

IBT:
Germany declare war on Spain
English Galley and Caravel come sailing
Ottoman knight redlines but kills Immortal on mountain
England and Byzant sign peace

(3) 290 AD
Germany gains MT, England and Byzants get Metallurgy.
Join 2 workers to Arbela
Peace with England: Banking for 595g and 31gpt.
Alliance with England vs Ottomans for 47gpt, get 2g back
Byzants and England have Democracy as well.
4/4 Knight vs 3/3 Ottoman LB -> 4/4 Knight
Lux to 20%. We are running out of war happines :(
Germany: 13gpt and 20g for Banking
Aztecs: MT, 11gpt and 9 for Banking
Spain: 6gpt for Banking

IBT:
Germany start JSB

(4) 300 AD
Arbela: Knight -> Cathedral
Join 2 workers to Antioch
12/12 Army vs 4/4 Musket in Urfa -> 12/12 Army
12/12 Army vs 4/4 Musket in Urfa -> 10/13 Army

IBT:
Ottomans start JSB

(5) 310 AD
Persepolis: Knight -> Trebuchet, MM'ed to 30 shields.
10/13 Army vs 3/3 Musket in Urfa -> 4/13 Army, razing it for 4 workers.
4/4 Knight vs 4/4 Warrior -> 3/4 knight

IBT:
English start JSB
Aztec finish Leonardo, Germans cascade to JSB

(6) 320 AD
Persepolis: Treb->Treb
4/4 Knight vs 3/3 Musket -> 4/4 Knight
5/5 Immortal vs 3/3 Musket -> 2/3 Musket :(
4/4 Knight vs 2/3 Musket -> 4/4 Knight, taking 2 settlers.
Lux to 10%

IBT:
A bunch of German horsemen comes riding
Isabella kick out or roadcrew
Byzant and Ottoman start(cascade?) JSB
Ottoman finish Copernicus and JSB

(7) 330 AD
Persepolis: Treb->Treb
Antioch: Courthouse->Bank
Pillage Ottoman Iron. Ottomans will talk now: they have Democracy and Metallurgy, and have another source of iron.

IBT:
English start Shakespeare

(8) 340 AD
Persepolis: Treb->Treb

(9) 350 AD
Persepolis: Treb->Treb
Bactra: Cathedral->Bank
Aztecs gain Metallurgy.

We have 3 trebs holed up in Bactra and 1 in Persepolis, too many units running around to move them now.

Passing off early to even out the turns. We have a nice stack outside Mugla, Army, 4 (3 Elite) Immortals and 5 Knights. After burning Mugla, we should pull back and defend our perimeter while building infrastructure. Santiago (Spanish capital) looks like it will fall this turn, pray that we have a valid route to wherever it pops.. Or get them to declare war on us somehow. (823gold to steal tech)

Excellent. This means the wines are in our territory now?

Very solid turns! :goodjob:

Yes, the Wines are in our territory now so we are able to be happy with a lux tax of 10%. Actually, we can buy Ivory for 12 gpt from the English to drop the lux tax to 0% and be happy with only two specialists for the first turn, then one after Gordium completes its Cathedral. At 10% lux we make 75 gpt, with the deal I just described we make 82 gpt. Something to consider.

Otherwise on the tech front: Byz, England and Ottomans have Democracy and Metallurgy; Aztecs have Metallurgy only. Others have nothing we don't have.

We have 11 turns remaining on the Aztec alliance against the Ottomans, and 14 turns remaining on the English alliance against the Ottomans. The Ottomans are on the ropes. They've lost Uskudar to the English already, and we're in a position to toast Mugla in short order. The Aztecs are the big dog, hopefully we can switch sides and start a dog-pile on them once Military Tradition comes in.

I really like the touch of having our workers scrambling to build roads through Spanish territory. I fear our rep will be toast next turn, but we're trying. If we felt we had to, we could probably hit the Byz up for a loan to get enough cash to fail on a steal attempt and maybe get Izzy to declare war on us.

Might consider a Granary in Bactra ahead of the Bank. We're out of native workers to merge, and I think doubling the growth rate to size 12 will pay off in short order. The other possibility is just to skim workers off of our cities when they hit size 12 and have a full food box. The former may actually be faster than the latter.

Leaders can go for Banks and Cathedrals. We're just about out of infra to build, although Persepolis needs a Bank when the other cities finish theirs and can start to build military again. I do appreciate that we now have a Trebuchet force.

Yes, more artillery in a town, the less likely the AI will take a chance at attacking.

Yeah, I felt it was more important to build trebs now that we could get 1 pr turn, then cannons when we buy metallurgy soon. I tried to get our workers into a protective pattern around their capital, but got kicked out. We might have a valid traderoute to where the spanish capital is jumped to though.

We do have to be concerned that the Spanish won't live to see the end of our trade deal. That will spoil our gpt rep.

I can't see anything much we can do about that, except possibly trying to surround the Spanish city nearest to us.

Yes, we could do that. We must save the Spanish for 10 turns. Then we can finish them off ourselves :)

I think Codo is up!

That appears to be correct. Good luck Codo.

sorry, was extremely busy and off the PC.

Yes, Codo is up - please go ahead and good luck with the Spanish deal!

Forgot Sir Len Taft was on vacation still.

Got it, but I may not be able to get to it till tomorrow.

Inherited Turn: 350 AD

Save the spanish. I activate the workers outside Santiago. The city is going to fall in no more than 2 turns, might fall in one. Not sure what the AI will think of a human barrier around Vitoria, but we'll find out shortly.

<ENTER>

The Aztecs easily take Santiago. There forces move quickly past it towards Vitoria, and I doubt there is anything I can do to stop them. We have no troops nearby and they have a lot of fast moving troops.

The English and Ottomans fight near Mugla and the Ottomans build a new city (Bingol) between Bactra and Mugla.

Bytzantines start JS Bachs

Germans start moving their forces towards Vitoria too. The Spanish are doomed.


1) 360 AD
Persepolis: Trebuchet->Trebuchet. We are lossing 3fpt, and can only build a trebuchet once a turn for one more turn before losing population.

Gordium: Cathedral->bank. Seems we want to build infrastructure till MT comes in. I feel a bit uneasy since we have such a small military, but I continue with that plan.

Our forces are outside Mugla, but will have to attack across the river if I don't move them first. Plus Mugla is on a hill. I really don't like those odds, and don't want to devestate our biggest offensive force taking one city. I move our forces across the river in preparation of next turns attack.

I'm not sure why our research is turned completely off. I am assuming we did that so we could purchase techs with cash. We are not that far behind the science leaders. It might be possible to get a tech that we can trade. Especially if we continue to pit the strongest civs against each other. I raise science to 30%. Metallurgy is already known and Economics due would be due in 44. That seems way to long. I turn Science back off.


IBT
The Aztecs take Vitoria instantly. Their last city Salamanca is a long way off and completely surrounded by the Aztecs.

English and Ottomans continue fighting.


2) 370 AD
Persepolis: Trebuchet->bank. due in 7 I MM to stop starvation.

I keep going back to reading turn logs and notice the Ivory deal with England. We can buy ivory for 210 gold straight up. Done.

We burn Mugla to the ground, losing one knight in the process. We also gain 5 more workers as the Ottomans moved a settler into the city in the last IBT.

The Germans have a MA with the Ottomans against Spain. With so many of their troops in our area, I build an embassy with them for 62 gold. They ally with us against the Ottoman's for 22gpt and our 256 gold. Doing this (IMHO) will stop the Ottoman's from being any threat in the future. But I wonder how much stronger the Aztecs will be for it. I sign the deal, more to stop the Germans from allying with the Ottomans against us which I feel, until I can bring our forces back for protection, would be devastating. This does lock us into a war with the Ottomans for 20 turns, by which time I think they will be a non issue.

I switch Bactra to a Granary due in 3.


IBT

Holy cow, the English have an impressive amount of troops fighting the Ottomans outside their new town.

In a completely surprising turn of events, the Koreans and the Spanish sign an alliance against us! The Spanish declare war on us. :smoke:

Byzantines build a new city NE of Antioch. Once we get our military on the move, they are a prime target of pointy stick research. They have over 6000 gold and are now 3 techs up (Economics, Democracy and Metallurgy). With the prolonged war with the Ottomans, we need a good target that we can actually sign a peace treaty with. Won't be my turns that decide this though. I think what we are going to want to do, is once the alliances with the Ottomans end, sign up everyone against the aztecs (minus a few um, research partners)


3) 380 AD
Keep workers moving. I have to spend a turn gathering our attack force for the trip home together in safety.

IBT

Spanish go the way of the Dodo.

Byzantines and English start Smiths.

English destroy the Ottoman's new town.

Massive forces of Aztecs, Germans and English begin moving towards the Ottoman capital.

4) 390 AD
Our army begins its trek home. Workers are working.

English now know Democracy, Metallurgy, Physics, and Economics. Nothing is up for trade. Thats where the Byzantines got all that money. The Byzantines are also up those 4 techs. No trades available.

Aztecs only up Metallurgy as are the Germans

The Koreans are a backwards people, and are down to two cities.

We make 66gpt and have 132 in the bank.

IBT
English and Ottoman sign peace. uh oh.

5) 400 AD
Bactra: Granary->Musketman. I am scared to death of our non-existant military. If the Ottoman's signed the English against us, it would be bad.

Our army stack is back in home territory near Antioch. A parade is held to celebrate their victories and safe return. Word spreads quickly that they are being redeployed in short order.

We now make 112gpt. This is where I usually start to lose in my single 5CC games. We are locked into a war with the Ottomans, and cannot sue for peace for techs. We can buy Metallurgy or Physics for all our money, but I'm not sure thats what we want to do.

I continue to move workers around improving outlying terrain.

IBT

see some AI troop movement, but thats about it.

6) 410 AD
Antioch: Bank->musketman

IBT
not much

7) 420 AD
I merge 3 workers into Bactra to get it to size 12.
Still no trades available that don't take all our gold
we are up to 409 gold and +145gpt

IBT
all troops must be in Ottoman territory because I don't see any movement from the AIs.


8) 430 AD
Arbela: cathedral->musketman call me overly cautious, but I would like a bit more defense and any infrastructure will carry us over into the next players turn and lock us into a 10+ turn build.

I merge one last worker into Gordium. All our cities are at size 12 now, and we have around 45 captured workers.

IBT
Byzantines kick us our ot their expanding culture boundaries.

9) 440 AD
Persepolis: bank->musketman
Bactra: musketman->bank due in 7

IBT
Ottoman's start Shakespeares

10) 450 AD
I pretty much leave everything as is, so we can figure out what to do from here.

The save:

The Aztecs are now the main powr in the world. The Ottomans are not very scary anymore.

Our army is rather small for an attack. We have been at war with the Byzantines before and I don't expect them to make peace soon. EDIT: But I will go for it.

:lol: about Spain. That was THE way to get rid of rep issues.

Am I up now?

Insane luck with the spanish there :)

Once the alliances vs Ottomans expire, we should unite the world against the Aztecs.

Would it be worth it to build a couple Caravels and go find the Koreans? I have to believe they are on an island somewhere, otherwise the Aztecs would have finished them off. Whacking the Koreans will lower the price tag on techs for us.

One serious potential problem with us attacking the Byz: They have all the money and tech in the world, so they have every chance of signing the Aztecs in against us. I think we should at least consider letting the Byz be for now, and getting them in on our side against the Aztecs. I think we can cancel the Alliance we have with the Aztecs vs. the Ottomans on Aggie's 1st or 2nd turn, freeing up more money to start the dogpile. The German troops are already over there ... Once the Byz burn most of their military stockpile, they are next on the hit list.

The Byz indeed have money. But we could take two towns in a turn. That would net us something like 700 gold if I'm not mistaken. I like the idea of a quick war vs the Byz and then a dogpile on the Aztecs. The Byz are strong as well and shouldn't grow too fast.

IHT: I declare war on the Byzantines.

Siege of Anycra:
vet knight vs reg musket: 3-1, we win
vet knight vs reg pike: 3-0, we win and we raze the city for 433 gold!

We have a 2nd iron in our borders.

I lower lux tax to 0%. We now make 185 gpt.

IT: The Byzantines send in two cavalry!

Turn 1 (460 AD)

Siege of Septum:
knight army vs reg musket: 3-1, we win
knight army vs reg musket: 3-3 we win
knight army vs reg cav: 3-2 we win. We raze the city for 465 gold :)

I will now retreat and try to stabilize the situation.

On neutral terrain:
4/4 knight vs reg cav: 3-2, we win.
3/4 knight vs 2/4 knight: 2-1, we win and take a settler.
5/5 immortal vs 4/4 cavalry on mountain: 3-3, cav retreats.

IT: The Aztecs ask us to renew the peace deal. I agree. Byzantines attack a city with a redlined cav! Doesn't work like that. Vet cav attacks vet immortal on mountain and is killed. 2nd cav succeeds though.
Persepolis: knight->knight, Arbela: musket->musket.

Turn 2 (470 AD) A turn of retreat and repositioning. Our knight army needs to heal.

IT: Our alliance with the Aztecs vs the Ottomans ends. The Byzantines send to cavs to Arbella. One wounds a musket and another kills an immortal. Germany starts Shakes.

Turn 3 (480 AD) The Byzantines have rifles!!! They entered the IA. At this moment they are the only civ.

IT: The Aztecs demand 100 gold and I agree. Then they agree upon a trade embargo vs us with the Byzantines. A lone English cav appears in the west.
No Byzantine attack :)
Antioch: musket->musket, Gordium: bank-> knight. Germany starts Smith.

Turn 4 (490 AD) We make 210 gpt :) The Byzantines want to talk again. I first pillage a few squares in their lands and capture a slave.
Peace with the Byzantines and Physics for 61 gpt. We now buy Metallurgy from Germany for Physics and 6 gpt.

England and the Byzantines are in the IA. The Ottomans, Aztecs, Koreans and Germans have no required tech over us and haven't got Military Tradition. The Byzantines shouldn't be underestimated.

We now have 2432 gold and make 142 gpt.

IT: England asks us to renew the peace deal and I do so. The Byzantines give us the boot.
Persepolis: knight->knight.

Turn 5 (500 AD) We now make 173 gpt. I move the troops west.

IT: England and Aztecs sign a MA vs the Ottomans. Arbela: musket->bank

Turn 6 (510 AD) The Germans have Military Tradition and we have 2780 gold. I'm not willing to trade at this point. ToG and Magnetism are too expensive.

IT: Antioch: musket->knight.

Turn 7 (520 AD) I declare war on the Aztecs!.

Cempola:
Knight army vs reg musket: 3-1, we win
Vet knight vs reg musket: 3-1, we win and raze the city.

Asturias:
vet knight vs reg pike: 3-0, we win and promote
Vet knight vs reg spear: 3-1, we win, promote and raze the city.

Vitoria:
vet knight vs reg musket: 3-0, we win and promote


The Byzantines demand 45 gpt for a MA vs the Aztecs. :( But they get it. Germany gets iron for a MA. England gets 45 gpt for a MA.
This is a lot of money. Especially considering how backward the Aztecs are. But I deviated from the team too much already, warring with the Byzantines.

IT: Bactra: bank->knight.

Turn 8 (530 AD)

Vitoria:
trebs redline one nusket and 2 HP another.
elite knight vs 1/3 musket: 3-0, we win.
vet immortal vs 2/3 musket: 2-3, we win and raze the city.

IT: Persepolis, Gordium: knight->knight.

Turn 9 (840 AD)

Santiago:
Elite knight vs vet musket: 4-2, we win
Elite knight vs reg musket: 3-3, we win and raze the city.

IT: An Aztec knight kills the knight that razed Santiago.

Turn 10 (850 AD)

Toledo:
Knight army kills two reg muskets, but has only 2 HP's left.
Elite knight vs reg musket: 3-0, we win and raze the city.

The Aztecs won't talk yet.

I had a lot of luck in my 10 turns!

The Ottomans are now following the road of the dodo and Spain. The Aztecs have a problem, and that's Persia :p The Byzantines and English are the new powers of the world, despite the fact that the Aztecs have the highest population and biggest landmass.
We have 3123 gold and make 66 gpt.
Germany has Military Tradition, which we could use. But I like to make a 2fer somewhere (ToG for Magnetism...). That will be difficult with the Ottomans and Koreans. I hope those are still around when we enter the Industrial Age.

A lot of ruins, and you don't even see one of the razed Byzantine cities :)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/cMM1-550ADbattlefield.JPG

Nice turns Aggie :)

It looks like Byzants have moved itself to the top of the "to-kill" list..

I take the liberty of posting the roster :)

carlosMM
Tarkeel
Sir Len Taft - on holiday
Codo Stejans
aggie - just played
T_McC - up
Foresight - on deck

Good job you two. Have we had the chance to set up colonies on any luxes yet? I wouldn't worry about getting military tradition, yet. The less we do with our knights means the more the aztecs could do against our alliances. If everyone besides us comes out of this war hurt, we have done our job.

I should be able to play this tonight. I'll end our alliance w/Germany against the Ottomans and get us some money back. Unfortunately the Ottomans have nothing useful to give us, just Democracy and Economics. Neither can be used to gain a discount on Military Tradition from the Germans.

We can buy MT from Otto (or Liz) for ~2600 gold. Somehow we are the only ones with Saltpeter (even the Byz seem to be lacking :confused: ). It's worth ~65 gpt to the Germans. Which brings me to Forsesight's question: There is nothing good anywhere near us. No lux, no salt. The only thing we can colonize is another Iron, and the only people we can trade that to are the Ottomans.

Strange game: No one has Navigation yet, so we can't buy a WM. I'll put a couple of boats out to poke around, at least we'll get a discount when it is time to buy a map.

@Aggie - Have you seen any Byz troops passing through to Azteca? Should I sign ROP with the Byz to get them there faster?

I have seen a couple of troops, but not more than can be seen now. It may be worthwile to sign a ROP, but I think that we want to hurt the Byzantines again. Otoh we need rifles first and we may find them a great trading partner. Especially when we can get the Ottomans and Koreans into the next age. Both are weak, but scientific. I see a couple of opportunities regarding tech trade here. We must be very alert now. When Magnetism or ToG pops up somewhere we should make a 2fer asap to profit from the free tech. The Byzantines got Nationalism.

This map is VERY profitable for us until now. Two horses, two irons, the only ones with saltpeter...

I am worried about when Rubber and Oil come into the game. Oil we might have, but rubber sure isn't going to be around us.

cMM1 - Power!

550 AD (0)
Persepolis can comfortably do 3-turn Knights, and I swap tiles to arrange that. Gordium swaps to a Caravel. I want 2, one going CW and one going CCW. We'll need a couple of boats to wipe out Korea, so might as well build them now. Arbela is fine, can't even swap 1 tile without losing a turn off the Bank. Antioch can do 23 spt at break-even food. Yuck. With a little work we'll get 3-turn Knights there until the food runs out. Will irrigate over a mine to facilitate food accumulation. Bactra can do 2 Knights in 7 turns with wildly fluctuating food surpluses/deficits. Of a larger concern may be the Aztec citizen we have in there. Remember: Only merge our citizens and those of dead civs.

No Aztecs in sight. No Byzantines either.

Wanted to sell Salt to the Germans as partial payment for Mil.Trad., but there isn't another supplier for us to buy from. Our alliance with Germany vs. the Ottomans ends in two turns, and will not be renewed. Best Case Scenario: The Ottomans research ToG, the Germans the other. Then we can get into the IA without a major gpt payment.

Will hold up for a couple of turns to rally the troops to a single target. (And let the Byz catch up) These are fairly large cities we're going after.

IT - Lose a Knight, and notice a fair few Aztec troops heading our way.

560 AD (1)
Build a Knight.

Avenge lost Knight vs. the Aztecs.

IT - Byz found a city that claims an Iron from us.

570 AD (2)
Bizarre. Are we trading Iron to someone? Because I now no longer have the option to build Knights.

Yes, we're trading our other Iron to Germany. :cringe: We also lose Ivory on this turn. Have a trading round ahead of me here.

Start to build Fortresses, no combat on this round.

Cancel MA w/Germany, regain 22 gpt. Pay Liz 190 gold for Ivory. A colony won't last, so I can either trade 800 gold or Saltpeter to Liz for Iron. Problem is, if I trade Salt we can't build Cavs when we get MT. I bite the bullet and give her 735 gold for Iron. Ehh, if the MA w/Germany vs. the Aztecs would have cost us >37 gpt, we just came out ahead.

Build 2 Knights and a Caravel.

IT - Aztec Musket moves into killing range. Where are the LB's I saw two turns ago?

580 AD (3)
Kill Musket, no leader. I think troops will be ready for an assault on Santander in a couple of turns.

590 AD (4)
5 Knights, 2 Muskets, the Army and a bunch of Trebs will assault Santander in 2 turns. Left a few troops behind to play defense nearer our core. Just waiting to see some Byz troops.

Ottomans have nothing to offer for peace, Germans don't yet know either ToG or Magnetism.

Completed 1 Knight.

IT - Longbow runs out of Santander.

600 AD (5)
Assault on next turn. Retreat an Elite Knight vs. LB.

Completed 2 Knights and 1 Caravel. Started on some more Infrastructure. I think Colosseums will pay off in this game.

Monte has a monopoly tech: Navigation. Otherwise no change on Diplo front.

IT - Crusader chases a Knight of ours, coming up one tile short.

610 AD (6)
Trebs take 1 HP off of each of the three regular Muskets defending Santander. Lose 1st Elite Knight attacking, then Army wins twice and two more Elite Knights win without producing a leader. Size 12 Santander is razed, netting us 33 gold and 5 slaves.

Theory of Gravity and Magnetism are each affordable from England, but the Germans are taking their sweet time discovering/buying one of them.

Still can't find the Koreans. :scan:

IT - Aztecs land a Settler/Musket pair to our West. Is this some kind of joke?

620 AD (7)
I think I'll take advantage of this lull in the "action" to run our Treb stack back to a Barracks to be upgraded.

Complete a Musket.

No change in Diplomacy.

IT - The Byzantines sign a Trade Embargo against us with the Koreans. Wow. :rolleyes:

630 AD (8)
Whack Musket/Settler pair, gaining 2 more slaves. Complete another Knight. Start a Library in Persepolis just for giggles.

IT - Aztecs move on what they think are unguarded workers. Byz give our CCW caravel the boot.

640 AD (9)
Complete a Courthouse in Bactra. Might make MM easier, plus pays for itself.

Have I mentioned that the Germans and Ottomans are useless? Our workers are reduced to building roads on the mountains between Byz territorial boundaries and cleaning up pollution on a volcano.

IT - Get a boot order from Liz.

650 AD (10)
Complete a Library and two Muskets. Each of the Muskets replaces a non-elite Pike.

Upgrade our 6 Trebs to Cannons, next leader will find them in Bactra.

Find an Aztec LB wandering around and leave the next leader with a Parting Gift. It can be found under the Knight Army.

Final Notes:
I didn't intend to attack Barcelona, I just wanted to gather everyone under the Army. Next leader can always give it a shot, but we're not in a hurry and can wait for our improved artillery to make it up to the front.

I still haven't found the Koreans. I guess the Aztecs are pretty well gassed and are just trading weak punches with the Ottomans. We were only attacked once on my turn.

The Germans and Ottomans are still useless. We might try to build Libraries in every city and research ToG or Magnetism ourselves. At 100% science it would take 11 turns and essentially all of our treasury, so it's a low-percentage play. I have to figure the Germans will come up with something for us early in the next leader's turn.

I'd be tempted to buy Mil Trad and try to run the Aztecs just about out of this game. I wasn't very aggressive on offense, as I wanted to let the other civs gas each other sufficiently first. With our Cannons we certainly have enough firepower to go after a core city or two of the Aztecs. I guess they have 3-4 Salts as no one else seems to have any. The Byz either have no fast troops or they are running them through English and Ottoman territory, because I haven't seen any.

Good stuff. Hopefully, the techs will be cheaper somewhere in my turns and I can start an aggressive war vs aztecs.

It's not a matter of techs being cheaper, it's a matter of not buying/taking for peace a tech we can't sell ourselves. The turn the Germans pick up Magnetism or ToG, we should buy the other from England (much cheaper than the Byz for some reason) and swap with Bismarck so we enter the IA together. Hopefully we can get a monopoly tech out of it. If not, we can always make peace with the Ottomans (and gift/trade them into the IA) and see if things shake out a little better.

If the Ottomans would pick up Mil. Trad somewhere in here, that would be worth taking for Peace. As it stands they only have Economics and Democracy. We can get both for Peace (+whatever money they have) by giving them Physics as part of the deal. With no possible resale, that's not worth it to us until we feel we need them in the IA.

As far as the aggressive war: I just kept convincing myself we would have Cavs next turn, so don't charge in yet. Next turn never came. :lol: I also wanted as many English and Byz troops to die as possible by letting them go first. We can easily assemble an SoD, especially because you have a leader waiting for you to form a Cav army when we get Mil. Trad. :D

Oh boy, these were some weak turns.

Otto & English sign peace treaty.
Otto's building ST
England Finishes STC (London)

Move Cyrus out of Aztec Territory
Move Workers into Byzan Territory
Continue building roads

Knight vs Musket (Barcelona)
1/4 0/4
Army vs Musket (Barcelona)
8/13 0/4
Army vs Musket (Barcelona)
2/3 0/4

Still Green troops in city. Knights here are pointless and I don't want to lose any. Fortify this turn and retreat next.

6 Artillery vs 2 musketmen (2 tiles north of Bactra)
--- 2/4 2/4

Knight vs 2/4 musketman
0/4 2/4 grrrrrrr
E.Immortal vs 2/4 musket
3/5 0/4
Knight vs 2/4 musket
0/4 1/4
Knight vs 1/4 musket
4/4 0/4

Germany offers Military Tradition for 2175. 500-700 cheaper than all other civs. We buy.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn 2

Defense (2 Persian Knights) vs 2 aztec knight
alive/alive dead/dead

Byzantines building ST
England (canterbury) finishes NU
Byzantines plop a city north of Bactra
Cyrus to bactra
2 more turns and we get 61gpt back from Byzan
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn 3
Auto boot for workers in Byzan Territory
Defense: E.Immortal/Knight (1/4) vs 2 aztec knights
0/4 1/4 1/4 0/4

Gordium Collo > calv
Byzan building ST
English Finish ST
Bringing all knights back for Upgrade
Found English's iron
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Germany wants 70 gold - we give
Korea + Byzan MA vs Aztecs
Persp calv > calv
Bactra calv > calv
Upgrade 9 knights = 270 gold = yes
Found Korea
Calvary vs Musket
1/4 0/4 gain two workers from capturing settler
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn 5
Byzantines + Germany Ma vs Ottos
Areb Calvary > colo
Disband knight army 100 shields for colo = 2 turns now
Cav army made
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn 6
Antioch Colo > Cav
Forgot what turn I did this in, but all cities are mm'd for cavs
Iron colony placed
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Army vs Musket (barcelona)
9/12 0/4
Army vs Musket
6/13 0/4
Army vs musket
4/14 0/3
Cav vs musket
3/4 0/3

Barcelona destroyed (had Knights templar +18 gold)

Korea two cities on tiny island///Ottos have one
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gems colony set up

War Weariness is starting to take effect

Cancel MA with Germany
Cancel MA with England
Cancel MA with Byzantines

Aztec (TRADE) Peace - He gives WM + NAV
We give Military Tradition + 387 gold

At this point TMCC is most likely throwing his keyboard at the screen saying, "FORESIGHT YOU IDIOT, DO NOT GIVE THE AZTECS MILITARY TRADITION." Well, instead of wasting units on all of their hill/mountain cities, I did this so we get Nav and now the aztecs can start pushing back germany/england. Aztecs don't seem to be the strongest power anymore. Now, we can go after the Byzantines.

Germany (TRADE) Magnetism for Gems/Iron/Nav/15gpt
Byzantines (TRADE) WM + 495 for NAV
England (TRADE) WM + 390 for NAV
Aztecs (TRADE) 250 gold + silks + incense for MAG
Ottomans (TRADE) Economics + Democracy + WM + 22gpt for peace/Physics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn 9
Bring Calvary to Byzantine border
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Turn 10
Aztec and Ottomans make peace
Germany (TRADE) TOG for WM + 1622 + 48gpt

There, now we are ready to pointy-stick lots of people. I know a lot of you are going to say that is some poopy trading and I know it was. :(

Oh and if you're wondering why I had to cancel all of the MA's with iron going places because someone traded our only source away.

EDIT: Forgot to add that we got Steam Power by entering the next era.
Byzantines have Nationalism and Industrialism.

We don't have coal in our border. Byzantines have Coal/Wines only 2 cities into their territory.

Actually, trading Military Tradition to the Aztecs was exactly the right move. Only we and they can build Cavs, and we'll definitely sign them in against whomever our next opponent is.

The bad news: We missed our slingshot (unless we take our chances and gift the 2CC Ottomans into the Industrial Age). Medicine would have been a monopoly tech.

The good news: We are only involved in gpt payments to the Germans, who were definitely not our next target. To have tried the slingshot we would have had to pay either the Byz or the English, fixing our next target. This could very well work out better.

The Iron situation is a bit confusing. We have 1 source inside our borders, near Bactra. We have a colony on a second source, which actually looks pretty safe from settlement for a while. We are trading 1 source to the Germans as part of a tech deal, but have 2 turns remaining on a deal with the English where we are importing Iron. Bottom line: When the English deal expires in 2 turns, we should still have Iron even though the city resource box only shows 1 source.

There is a coal source available outside of Salamanca that we could put a colony on. I think we'll have 64 slaves after forming the colony so we won't have to hold it for long to get a nice railnet built. If/when Istanbul is razed/captured a Coal source closer to our core will become available.

If we're going to gift the Ottos up to the Industrial Age, might be a good idea to do the same for the Koreans. Best case scenario is that they both draw Medicine, which we acquire to trade to the Germans/English/Byz for cash. We would hold off on giving any optional techs to Korea and the Ottos so we could make up the difference between Medicine and Steam. Also might get us Nationalism. I don't see a downside to this strategy as neither will ever be able to afford paying us for techs, and in the case of the Ottos may not live much longer. Something to discuss.

Next leader (carlosMM) should also check for profits to be made by trading the WM. I think we only have 1 remaining building (besides Libraries/Universities), a Colosseum in Bacta. Persepolis can make 27 spt with a small food deficit.

I'm not sure who the next target is. The Byz have all the money, but they are also much smaller than England. Have to figure we'll buy one in against the other, and since both have Rifles but neither can build Cavs it will be unproductive WW-inducing trench warfare between them. :) If it's the Byz, I think we're going for the kill shot this time. I'm sure the Byz will let you know about it, but we have a Pike fortified in their territory.

I will have a look at the save in a couple of hours, but I indeed tend to agree that we missed the slingshot. And it might have been good to immediately get the Germans and Koreans in the Industrial Age. They are both too weak to be bothered about.

carlosMM is up indeed.

You can still get the two into the industrial age. Carlos will have to decide that because I wasn't sure if that is what you all wanted. Yes, I did mess up the slingshot. Maybe not completely hopefully.

EDIT: I think the germans are stronger than the byzantines, but weaker than the british.

wow, I am busy for a weekend and come back to a game unknown to me :lol:


great play there - we look good.

am looking at gifting the losers into IA now.

Wowsa, quite a lot has happened here since I checked yesterday! We're looking in very trim shape.

Wow, Korea is pathetic!! Two cities on a small island. I would definatelly gift techs to the Ottomans and Koreans. We might be able to buy Nationalism or Medicine this way.

Regarding our opponents: I think 4 of them have the potential of being/getting the main foe. The Aztecs have a huge empire, but are backward. The Byzantines are way ahead and very rich. The Germans have a decent core. England is big and advanced. I guess that dogpiling the Byzantines will net us the most gold. Every razed city will give us at leat 600 gold.

If we dogpile the Byz we can knock them down to the city they have on the Korean island. That should get us plenty of cash and a tech or two. I misspoke in one of my (voluminous) earlier posts: Since they are ahead of us technologically, we don't want to eliminate them yet. We can still profit from their existence.

We already have Wines for ourselves so the Wines Foresight spoke of would be for trade purposes. We can always use multiple Coal colonies as the one we can get up by the Aztecs goes away with the first border expansion of the Aztec city.

I kind of see us fighting Byz --> England (close off the east and turn our armies towards a single front) --> Aztecs --> Germany --> clean up the scraps. Might depend on resource placement whether we have to hit der Kaiser before he gets Panzers.

I think the next 3 techs we need are Communism, Industrialization, and Sanitation. Since this turned into 5CC Oscillating War, I feel we need Police Stations before Hospitals. If we go the other way we might get stuck having to run high lux to cover WW. Depends on what is available when we get through with the Byz.

carlosMM, you know you are up?

Taking on the Byzantines will present one problem. With all of their cash, they can easily create a dogpile on us, so we better spend the cash asap to get everyone after them. Also, most of Byzantine's troops are in the Aztec/Ottoman area and almost all are riflemen.

carlosMM knows he's up, but he's "unable to post" groucho

:lol:

Aggie, can you PM me a link to the incident? :D

I can't find it (search option doesn't work :( ).

Figures. This SG was going by really fast and this happens.

carlosMM told me yesterday that he was at turn 8.

preturn: I decide to gift Ottomans into Indus age. Sell them Magnetism and ToG cheap, gaining Free Artistry and a little. They get Nationalism as their free tech, which they are not willing to trade at all.
Alright, try again: Korea gets peace and tech, tech, tech, tech, until they finally also gain Nat. They offer it for :lol: :Steam, Mil Trad, 143/turn, WM, 9. I decide to eliminate the per turn and offer techs instead, they finally take it @ Steam, Mil, Eco, Music, PPress!

WM and 290 Gold gets the Aztecs into the next age - I see no point to let them give that money to an AI next turn.

I wake an Aztec worker and send him off ot the coal near Aztecs - even if we have Coal for only 2 turns it is worth a slave!

Byzantines have Indus already. I think they are a big threat mid-term. Once they build factories they will be able to throw hordes of Infantry, drafted and built, at us.

Another thing is the Ottoman-Byz war. Maybe this will cost Theodora a lot of troops - after all Osman now has Rifles - enabling us to hurt Byz in 14 turns, when our peace expires.

(1) IT: a Byz Rifle kills an Osman Musket! I LOVE defender-defender fights :lol:
MM Persepolis for 2 more tax while still getting Cav in 4.

looking around I think England offers a good target now. We have a nice stack of Cavs - we should use them now! The long peace with Byz is too long a wait! A stack of Cavalry moves towards Richmond.

(2) IT: boder expansion means our Pike is in Byz lands - Theo kicks him. She is in a warring mode and signs England up against hte Ottos.
Maybe we should have a hand in Osmans demise?
Ivory and Iron are gone.

(3) ready to attack!
uh-oh! Monti sends a settler towards the coal!
WM again nets some money - not much, but 22 Gold is 22 Gold :)

I declare war on Lizzy.
our amry loses 4 HP on the first 3HP Rifle, 2 on the second and Uskudar is no more! 6 slaves
I misclick and move the attack stack for RIchmond into the wrong place - I will not attack across a river!

(4) Lizzy signs in the Byz vs us! :eek:
they lose 2 Rifles in dumb attacks, but ruin our iron colony and kill the Pike that had run east towards England.

retreat, retreat, retreat - I want to consolidate our defences and only kill one exposed Rifleman in dark red tunic.
Richmond will have three Rifles by now - I leave it alone. Instead I attack Iconium - only regs there, too!
retreat,
kill,
retreat,
kill,
LBM kill and raze!

(5) IT went well: no losses, but one Byz Rilfe learns that Cav are good defenders, too!

upgrade a few Muskets. I want the iron back, too - need 2 Rifles to protect a colony there.
Richmond has sent forth a Rifle - I kill him at the cost of 1 Cav.
a Byz Rifle has walked near Antioch and gets killed, 1 retreat.

I decide not to use our 9Cav stack for anything this turn but use it together with the army next turn, when it has healed in Antioch.

(6) Wang wangts demo, i say no - war!

raze Bursa, our army loses no HP on the first vet Rifle, but 12 on the second. Send 2 Cav to cover it.
kill 1 exposed Byz Rifle

(7) upgrade the two trebs captured from England.
razing Dyrrahium costs us 4 Cav - but it is worth it!
The iron is colonized again

Rifles in the open - should I attack? I decide not to - if the near Antioch I now have the cannons ready to pounce on them.

Byzanz is by now willing to talk peace :lol: Prilep will have to go first - a size 1 town they plopped down in the east.
Lizzy isn't talking yet - so I will go for Richmond with the healed Army in two turn

(8) IT: one attack by a Rifle agaionst our fortified elite Immo on mountain. Guess what? :D
Korea and Aztecs make peace.

Byzantines are in reverse, drawing their troops back towards their towns.
bombard exposed English Rifle and Musket to 1 HP and kill them.

(9) IT: Korea goes right back to war with the Aztecs.
English Killer attack Rifle kills our fortified vet Rifle and promotes, next one kills a cav and promotes. This one also kills a Cav attacking it :eek:

A ship sinks in prilep when the town is burnt to the ground for no losses.

(9) Christ those English attack Rifles are horrible: a Rifle on a hill dies to one again! and another Cav is killed (was below that Rifle!)
Byz is not much better: 1 HP Rifles on hill kills elite Cav, retreats another 2, dies.

finally Richmond is no more (army). Still, Lizzy will not talk
the annoying English attack Rifles succumb on first try, redlining one Cav.

I am getting nervous here - Lizzy will not talk! The Byz are the best target (rich), but they will not give anything in peace. They will buy the other civs against us soon I bet. I wish i could get Lizzy to make peace, then pile her in agains thte Byz, along with the Aztecs.

I decide to sign in both Germany and Aztecs against Byzantines. WM and 34 gets germany in, WM and 32 per the Aztecs.
Now we must see that we raze a few Byz towns - e.g. Ankara (I fear germany will get there first though!) and better Smyrna, Nicomedia...... we should try to free one coal!
Our army and a stack of Cav should be able to do this while keeping newbuilt Cav home.

(10) Byz want peace - no thanx. They lose a Rifle vs that elite Immo on mountain.
bombard 1 Eng 1 Byz rifle to red and kill them - no losses this time.
dispose of a LBM, too.

I sell Steam to the Ottos for WM and 550 - no idea where they have the money from!
Carefully, I steal Industrialization from Germany for 1806 Gold. Monti gives Gems and 27 per for it :)

I do not think a factory in Perse would be a good idea atm - it will not speed either Rifles or Cav.
Can someone do the maths for the other towns please?

the current map:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Cmmmap.jpg
(HUGE!)
red dots are coal!

and the savegame:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/cMM1-860AD.SAV

alright, I think we should indeed try to kill Byzanz now as a serious opponent. That is, it is OK to let them live with one or two cities, but no more.

Lizzy should be made peace with, maybe we can get a tech discount. I think Birmingham, though far off, is a nice target - it has no expended its borders yet! Beware of the river though!

We MUST do something about the Aztecs soon - I suggest we get ready to attack them once Rep parts is in. That means, build cannons and Rifles!

I thought we were going after the Byz first, but we got there anyway. :lol: (That peace treaty was straight-up, an extension from a war that ended 34 turns ago when we bought Tech at the peace table. She renewed for free after 20 turns, we could have attacked anytime after that.)

We should have multiple Irons now. We have two native (one came back to us from razing a Byz city) and a colony, so we should be set for Iron. Is there any Coal to buy? The Aztecs should have multiples but I can't see that they are hooked up yet.

Did you pop a leader? What did you use him for? We can (and should) build the Mil. Acad. to boost the strength of our army. If others come quickly they can go towards factories.

Persepolis can do 27 spt (3-turn Cavs/Rifles) with a small food deficit. If we build a Factory there, it'll be 2-turn Cavs/Rifles at a small food deficit (pre-rails, post-rails it'll do 2-turn Cavs easily). I think we need a Factory in every city, but should probably not have more than 2 cities engaged in Factory building at any one time. Maybe start Persepolis on a Factory now, letting the other 4 cities build units. Then when Persepolis finishes it can produce units quickly enough to let two other cities swap onto Factories. Razing Byz cities should net enough cash to rush a few of these.

I wouldn't worry about chasing Byz holdings away from their core. We're not going for a little trim here, we're going for a near-death experience. Agreed that the war with the Byz doesn't stop until they are relegated to the island they share with Korea, hopefully leaving ~10K behind for us.

I'm also not that worried about the Aztecs. So long as we keep them (and the English) always fighting someone/each other, they won't be able to accumulate troops and they'll stay broke. I think the next target is England. Let Monte burn any and all Cavs he builds on someone besides us.

I got it, but won't play till tomorrow I'm afraid

Since we have cavs, we should be pillaging the roads between us and England/Byzantines. Also, what are we doing with our southern most city? Very early in the game, we plopped it down saying we might be moving it later on. Are we still planning on doing this or is it there for good? We could plop down a colony for coal, but if we get into a GPT with Aztecs, the chances of them declaring war on us is less.

I thought we were going after the Byz first, but we got there anyway. :lol: (That peace treaty was straight-up, an extension from a war that ended 34 turns ago when we bought Tech at the peace table. She renewed for free after 20 turns, we could have attacked anytime after that.)
quite wrong - whenever a treaty has a bracketed number after it you get a rep hit - fairly or unfairly.

We should have multiple Irons now. We have two native (one came back to us from razing a Byz city) and a colony, so we should be set for Iron.yep Is there any Coal to buy?no The Aztecs should have multiples but I can't see that they are hooked up yet.
the multiple is the one I was heading for for a colony - not hooked up yet. see the marks on the map.
Did you pop a leader? What did you use him for?did I write a detailed turn report? Would I include a freakin' leader? We can (and should) build the Mil. Acad. to boost the strength of our army. If others come quickly they can go towards factories.
I do not think it is a good idea to waste shields for this. Rather, use the next leader.
Persepolis can do 27 spt (3-turn Cavs/Rifles) with a small food deficit. If we build a Factory there, it'll be 2-turn Cavs/Rifles at a small food deficit (pre-rails, post-rails it'll do 2-turn Cavs easily). I think we need a Factory in every city, but should probably not have more than 2 cities engaged in Factory building at any one time. I think we can even afford to rush the Factories if we need them - and we need them soon.
Maybe start Persepolis on a Factory now, letting the other 4 cities build units. Then when Persepolis finishes it can produce units quickly enough to let two other cities swap onto Factories. Razing Byz cities should net enough cash to rush a few of these. I just tested - razing is down to around 500 Gold each :(
I wouldn't worry about chasing Byz holdings away from their core. We're not going for a little trim here, we're going for a near-death experience. Agreed that the war with the Byz doesn't stop until they are relegated to the island they share with Korea, hopefully leaving ~10K behind for us. as said, the money's gone. I want themk so weak they will not come back to haunt us ever

I'm also not that worried about the Aztecs. So long as we keep them (and the English) always fighting someone/each other, they won't be able to accumulate troops and they'll stay broke. I think the next target is England. Let Monte burn any and all Cavs he builds on someone besides us.

Since we have cavs, we should be pillaging the roads between us and England/Byzantines. Also, what are we doing with our southern most city? Very early in the game, we plopped it down saying we might be moving it later on. Are we still planning on doing this or is it there for good? We could plop down a colony for coal, but if we get into a GPT with Aztecs, the chances of them declaring war on us is less.

NO!!!!!!!! Pillagine the roads is DUMB DUMB DUMB!

We are the ones with Cav - they lack them! We can let them come in, bombard them down to 1 HP, then kill them. Also, we can rush out 9 tiles, not them!

what coal would you like to colonize atm? We will need to raze a few cities first, or at least two, if we decide to fight it out with the Aztec Cavs......

I meant pillage neutral territory roads. A rifleman going 3 spaces when we can make them only go one is a lot better.

EDIT: I also meant on the way into their territory. I know what you are trying to say Carlos, but we have a very weak defense. When we get rails, everything will be a lot different, but for now, Byzantine neutral roads should be pillaged.

I agree with Carlos on the issue of pillaging roads. I think we would normally want to pillage roads to prevent fast enemy units from reaching our cities. As it stands we are only fighting move 1 units, and given that we have doubly-expanded borders, enemy troops have to spend 3 turns in our territory even to pillage a tile we can use, much less attack us.

The only potential advantage I see is to prevent neutral-territory counter attacks, with the penalty of ever-increasing times to the front line for the troops we produce. Since we can't keep cities, I think this has to be a blitz campaign and our pillaging will be a net detriment to us.

This opinion comes with a grain of salt: I shadowed the previous 10 turns, and firmly believe we can speak of when we burn the entirety of the Byz core, not if we burn it. I am confident we can burn right through them, and never really have to fight in our territory.

Alright agreed.

carlosMM: you are NOT right about that peace treaty. When it is straight up (brackets or no brackets) we can declare war without a problem. Same goes for a ROP straight up, as long as we don't declare while we have units within the borderrs. I have played a number of games this way in the last few months.

EDIt: One of the examples is Five take on the World, the original (by Nad). Another is AG3, Ultra Big Map.

aggie: then that changed since PTW 1.22? Because I distinctly remember ruining my rep in a deity game there this way - a straight renegged peace with 2 to go!

I don't know if and when that changed. But I was corrected (and I saw that it was so) in those SG's, so that's why I know.

I don't know if and when that changed. But I was corrected (and I saw that it was so) in those SG's, so that's why I know.

well, thanx a lot! (I should have know before!!!) :thumbsup:

(0) 860 AD
Can MM Pasaragadae to 27 shields instead of 22, which would put cavs at every third turn. Will wait for a leader to rush factory probably.

IBT:
2 English attacking rifles redline then kill cav in mountain
Byz attacking rifle kills redlined cav in mountain

(1) 870 AD
Healing turn mainly
Start irrigation around Arbela, to use more mountains
Rush factories in Antioch (708g) and Arbela (792)

IBT:
Byzantines are filling out the frontline with new cities.

(2) 880 AD
Pers: Cav->Cav
Antioch: Factory->Cav
BActra: Factory->Rifle, we need some artillery cover
Repel invading rifles.
Lose 1 cav razing Smyrna for 490g
Rush Factory in Arbela (716g) and Gordium (720g). These will be producing cannons every other round

IBT:
Ottomans and Byzant sign peace
Ottomans retake Edrine! They are back to a 2CC now
6 English rifles approach near Istanbul

(3) 890 AD
Arbela: Factory->Cannon
Gordium: Factory->Cannon
Heal up

IBT:
English rifles head for Istanbul
Korea and Ottomans sign peace
Korea start Magellan
4 Byz rifles approach to be slaughtered

(4) 900 AD
Kill invading rifles, losing 2 cav

IBT:
English rifles head westward again, they look very confused
Ottomans found Riza, 3CC now

(5) 910 AD
Pers: Cav->Cav
Arbela: Cannon->Cannon
Antioch: Rifle->Rifle
Gordium: Cannon->Cannon
Bactra: Cav->Cav
Start roading the spare coal, due in 6
Raze Ohrid for 488g

IBT:
English rifles head east/south again. I count 19 visible rifles

(6) 920 AD
Kill of some english and byz rifles, losing 1 cav

IBT:
English rifles head North/west again
England declare on Germany
We lose our silks and incense, we don't need them atm though.

(7) 930 AD
Arbela: Cannon->Cannon
Gordium: Cannon->Cannon
Kill some english rifles. Our Cav army drops to 4 hps vs a rifle in flat terrain! Sheesh

IBT:
Korea and Aztecs sign peace
Renew peace with Ottomans
Persepolis riots? I checked, and it had only 4 unhappy then.. We must have lost more luxes. Scroll ahead to save the other cities

(8) 940 AD
Antioch: Rifle->Rifle
Bactra: cav->Cav
The only lux available for sale is Incense from Aztecs. We buy it for 14gpt. We also need to set lux to 10%
7 Byz rifles in/around our borders this turn. Get leader from one of them, rush academy in Antioch. Lose 2 cavs on redlined rifles

IBT:
Korea declares on Germany, Ottomans and Aztecs. They must be feeling suicidal.
Byzants declare on Ottomans
Byzantian Ironclad in our south seas.

(9) 950 AD
Persepolis: Cav->Cav
Arbela: Cannon->Cannon
Antioch: Academy->Rifle
Gordium: Cannon->Cannon
Kill some byz rifles and 1 settler, lose 1 cav

Stopping here to even out the turns.
I didn't get very much offensive done, we kept getting invaded by rifles. Note we have a stack of cav in the mountains to deal with the rifles there next turn. Might want to move the Musket to cover.

Do we still want to be at war with the English? Next leader might consider razing Riza and calling a truce with Liz, then buying her in against the Byz.

There are a few gold to be made in MM, without slowing any of the builds.

Nice touch: We're hooking up the Aztecs 2nd coal for them. They should not be able to trade it to anyone but us. We also have 12 slaves mining a tile outside of our cultural borders, which is a new one to me.

Next leader should also very strongly consider placing a Musket on the Gem mountain. The Byz will almost assuredly step there next turn, and we need that tile. We are also likely to lose the Iron colony, but we don't need it anyway.

They aren't mining, they are building fortress :p Better then being idle.. I divided them into stacks of 12 for railroading.

As for England, she wouldn't take straight peace last I checked, so need some bore bonking.

I also suggest that the next leader starts bringing artillery with them when razing cities. Cannot afford to lose too many cavs.

Yeah, I put 2 cities on cannon building. We barely have any, but most of them are now under 2 rifles on the way to England.

Who IS the next leader? Byz and English are far far in front tech wise...

Sir Len Taft is next I believe, if he's back. Codo Stejans if he's not back.

Got it. Might be able to play tonight, if not, tomorrow morning.

IHT:
I move our cavalry stack and musketmen onto gem mountain. Move one elite cav into Antioch, just because I feel safer with at least one defender.

I look for MMing opportunities, but I don't see any.

Looking at Riza, I don't see how we are going to be able to destroy it anytime soon. We don't have any troops in the area and the English have a lot of rifles that could cover. Will probably have to wait till the rifles approach us and destroy them and then move to attack Riza

<Enter>

IBT:

The byzantine ironclads bombard Gordium. We have a caravel nearby, but I'm not sure why.

The English rile SOD bypasses our iron colony and splits forces, some heading back towards their own territory. Also, the Byzantine rifles near our gems move north.

1) 960 AD

Kill a wounded Byzantine riflemen and capture a settler.
Shuffle our forces around including a small strike force to attack Riza, and hopefully show the English the errors of their ways.

IBT:
English Rifles move to reinforce Riza
Gordium is bombarded again.
Aztecs kick our workers out of their territory, but the coal is roaded.


2) 970 AD
Gordium: cannon->cannon
Arbela: cannon->cannon
Bactra: cav->cav

Aztecs still have no coal to trade. Maybe it takes a turn to come online.

English still won't take straight peace, I think I have one more turn to burn Riza before the rifle stack reinforces it.

I move our Army and cav plus 1 cannon to the outskirts of Vidin. I ponder attacking, and then decide to do it.

Siege of Vidin:
Army kills veteran rifleman
elite cav kills reg rifleman and we get a leader Darius.
Vidin burns to the ground

I begin to move the Darius to Persepolis to rush a factory.

Notice that England build Exeter between us and the Aztecs.

I use the cannon from Gordium to bombard one of the ironclads.

IBT:

Aztecs and Germany sign peace.
Byzantines move several troops towards Arbela.

English build Cambridge next to Exeter.

3) 980 AD

Persepolis: cav->factory
Antioch: rifle->rifle

Move our conquering forces back to engage the Byzantines near Arbela. Kill 3 rifles, last Byzantine knight near our gems will be dealt with next turn.

Kill another defender in Riza. One more to go. The English have not reinforced the city, and hopefully it will burn next turn.

I use Darius to rush factory in Persepolis

Aztecs still dont have coal to trade. I think they traded it to the Ottomans on the inter-turn. I investigate (72gold) Istanbul and sure enough they have coal.

IBT
I see the English and Ottomans fighting.

4) 990 AD

Siege of Riza continues.
Cav vs vet rifle: cav wins
rifle vs reg rifle: our rifle wins
Riza is destroyed.

The english will take straight peace. But they will never ally against the Byzantines. I wonder if that would change if I took peace first and then in seperate negotiations, negotiated the alliance.
sign peace for all their 77 gold.

After the peace is signed, I see they have a mutual protection pact. This could be interesting. They will take a straight up mutual protection pact. This is problematic, as it could drag us into war against the Ottomans and Germans. The Ottomans are actively fighting the English in their territory, so I'm pretty sure they will attack the English and drag us into it. But now, if we attack the Byzantines, we will be at war with England again.

I could sign the MPP, and then expose a unit to the Byzantines. When they attack, our MPP will kick in and England will be in the war on our side. But I'm pretty sure our rep will be ruined, if it isn't already.

Going to pause here first to see what others think about what I should do.

I'm heading out for the rest of the day, and won't be able to finish up until tomorrow. I hope this is ok, and will give people time to comment. I edited and added the save, so you all could look at the situation.

I think our rep won't be ruined as a result of direct breaks from MPP triggering - that is, we become at war with someone we are shipping goods to. Indirect breaks (cut trade route) will though.. But I think our rep is already trashed, if I' not mistaken I couldn't sell resources when I had it.

This MPP between England and the Byzantines is a real problem. We can't MPP with England and trick the Byzantines (a valid tactic in a normal situation), because England is at war with the Aztecs as well. That's too much to handle. I hate to say it, but maybe it's better to wait until England mkes peace with the Aztecs.

PS. I would keep the Ottomans and Koreans alive for a posible free tech in the Modern Age.

I agree that we can't MPP with the English and end up with a war against the Aztecs. Also note that the English paid us for Peace and they will be regarded as breaking the deal.

What we can do is wait until their MPP ends (it's been about 20 turns since the Byz got Nationalism, and MPP's between AI's are allowed to lapse) and then pay them for an Alliance vs. the Byz. We aren't going to stop the war until the Byz are knocked off the continent. Maybe we play defense for a couple of turns and see if the MPP ends? Can we afford to wait until the first turn of Aggie's reign to go back on the offensive?

Another trick we could do is to get an ROP with the 2CC (3CC?) Ottomans and hook up their coal for them. If we have an ROP we can also defend the road between the coal and their capital, and we can buy coal from them since they are already importing a source and will show extra. :)

I disagree with Aggie about letting the Ottomans and Koreans live. I am not sure this game will make the MA (I think once we get Tanks it's game over), and all the Koreans and Ottomans are doing is jacking up tech prices for us. No rush to be rid of them, but I don't feel we should go out of our way to keep them alive.

Since the Factory in Persepolis has been rushed, next leader should go for the Military Academy.

I thought I read somewhere that the Military Academy has been rushed already. Correct me if I am wrong here.

I don't think the Ottomans will stay in this game for long and it won't be because of us. Too many civs have hate for them. I say we let Korea stay because we can work their anger towards us into War Happiness. They will be so behind in techs that they should end up demanding at least one tech/resource/lux from us sometime in the game. Then we can up them to MA with us and maybe get Computers or Rocketry out of them.

I honestly think this game will make it to MA. Only reason is it is going to take a lot of time to punch the Aztecs and Germans. The Aztecs because they are so large and have the resources. The Germans because we are getting close to the Panzer Age. We will probably have to rid the map of the other civs and make it Germany/Persia vs Aztecs.

I think I rushed the Academy, but the games are mixing together for me right now...

Yeah, by his log Tarkeel did rush the MA. Don't know what leaders are good for until we can rush Police Stations.

Some cities might benefit from coal plants.. Other then that, they can rush cavs/rifles :p Hospitals as well, but that is also some techs away.

I thought I had read the MGL's can't rush Military units. Coal Plants would be nice, we don't seem to be trying to get ToE/Hoover. We have plenty of spare workers to clean up pollution.

ok, I will switch to defensive posturing for a few turns, and see if the MPP between England and the Byzantines ends. I'll look into a ROP with the Ottomans, but I don't remember seeing a source of coal in their territory. I'll check again. Will finiish up my turns first thing this evening.

The coal is in the expanded borders of Istanbul. When/If the Ottomans are eliminated we can slap a colony on it.