As there was more interest than spaces in aggies latest 5CC game, here's a spinoff.

As a 5CC Conquest on such a tough level demands excellent play I will only take people who feel comfortable on Emperor level at the very least. All others are welcome to lurk and copy-play.

We will be Persia, and I have started the game already. We have a VERY good start (and I took the very first I got!), so I suggest you think up some very hard restrictions.

already suggested are:

honorable rules
no armies
no bombers (but I think fighters for bombing is OK).


signed up are

carlosMM
aggie
Tarkeel
Sir Len Taft
Codo Stejans
T_McC
Foresight

I'm here :) But I vote against honorable rules. That would make conquest rather difficult! We would not be allowed to fight an agressive war (only when they declare we can...). I suggest to follow my ruleset instead :)

oh, sorry, I should have clarified: honorable to me means no exploits, no treaty breaking.
declaring war when none of our units is in enemy lands is dastardly, but not dishonorable!

Reporting in!

I agree on the no bombers atleast, but since we can only ever have one army anyways, it isn't as overpowered as it otherwise would be.

If we want to make happines balancing harder, we could try this: No specialists unless the city doesn't have any free squares.

oh
that's a tough suggestion there!

It will make us have to focus on keeping the cities as equal as possible in most ways I think. I've never actually tried it, so not sure how hard it will be, but I think it fits a 5CC much better then a larger empire atleast. It's going to be a pain to remember though :(

hm, I think that is a bit too tough - in case we have few lux it may mean to run constant 50% lux!

I'll sign on, I'd like a really challenge (for me, I'm at emperor but planning to move up to demigod).

No specialists...hmm, that's quite a challenge...but the more fun. :D
Agree with the bombers, armies won't matter very much.

Sir Len Taft: welcome, prepare for a really hard fight here!


one rule for non-deity level players: PLEASE, if you are unsure about something, DO stop playing and report here. That way, the team can advise!

to spike the interest in this game a bit - here's the start:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM_start.jpg

and this I see after moving the worker:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM_start2.jpg

obviously, I founded our capital in place......

the opponents so far are: (from F11)
Spain
Byzanz
Korea
Ottomans
English

Great, a settler factory while we only are allowed to get 5 cities :D

Lovely, but how typical :crazyeye: Atleast we should be able to get the settlers and workers we need pretty fast. Hope some of those hills we see (or that range atleast) has iron for us.

I'd like to join, if you'll have me. I'm an Emperor level player in my solo games.

You could try something fairly simple:

No GLib. You have to get all your techs via trade or research. You get to work on your early trading Carlos. :D

(Note: Not a signup. Too many SG's already).

obviously, I founded our capital in place......


Odd question: For a 5CC, wouldn't it be worthwhile to at least consider moving the settler NW-NW? You would retain the 2 cows, and trade forests for at least 3 Hills and 3 Mountains.

In a normal game, one uses terrain with bonus food to pump up the settlement rate. Here, one can use bonus food to bring more high-shield, low-food tiles into a city radius.

The original spot will be almost entirely grassland, so post-rails the city can make at least 80 spt if it can use all of it's tiles. With the extra Hills and Mountains, I think that city would go over 100 spt. {Can't bring myself to do the full analysis of spt at size 12, 20, pre- and post-rails and factories ...}

Codo, you're in! welcome!

T_McC: an interesting idea - is that a signup? ;)
I still would settle ASAP - pump out settlers and workers, then later maybe move the city........ As it is, the city can use a lot of 2 prod tiles with food surplus, allowing the use of a scientist (keep them happy, too, by removing an unhappy guy) and get 13 shields in despo, maybe even 15, witha LOT of commerce as well.....

OK, I'm in. :banana:

:confused:

Anyway, the difference between the original spot and moving 2 NW would only be seen at sizes 7 and above. In each location one would work the 2 cows, 2 mined BG, and 2 forests (probably in that order). You would lose trade starting at size 5 because the forests would no longer by along a river, although that could be offset by mining the river plains tile and using that instead of a forest.

[OK, now I have to do the math ... I think the moved city can make 28 spt at size 12 out of Despotism, if the hidden tile in the NW is a Hill and not a Mountain. :) There has to be another food bonus (or more BG) to hit 30 spt.]

Moving now only costs 2 turns towards every city subsequently founded. Trying to accomodate a later move may force us to build unnecessarily wide in our core. Now that I think about it, the biggest problem we'd face is if we have a close neighbor. By moving now we stake our claim to that spot, and the AI won't settle to overlap our 21. But if we stay in place and only improve those tiles usable by either location, maybe getting everything else out two turns sooner is worth it. Could go either way, but I definitely feel the spot 2 NW of the starting square is better for a 5CC.

There the other consideration is that we would be jumping our Palace if we found on turn 1 with the intention of moving later. 'Twould suck to be able to build a perfect circle around our starting area, and then have our capital moved to the edge instead of the middle. We may not have much else to do with leaders, but still ...

welcome, then. I'll start the game this night!

:lol:

Let's pretend I can remember which tile I wanted to have the capital founded on. NW-NW of the start location means 2 Mountains and 3 Hills in the city radius. The fogged tiles look to be a forest, a river forest, probably another forest (in the SW) and some grass in the NW. So tile equivalence with the starting location until size 6, then possibly surrendering 1 trade by working a non-river forest, then ... whatever, we won't be size 7 for a while and will probably have more improved tiles.

At size 12, out of Despotism, I then count 27 spt without another food bonus under the fog. Three-turn Cavs/Rifles are nice.

Agreed on no G.Lib. We'll just have to pointy-stick folks for tech. :D

I'd like to join if there is still room. I am easily comfortable on Diety.

You guys have a very nice start!

Gozpel was right, he certainly sucks at generating starts! :mad:

Where are we placed on this earth? I'm really interested in that :)

EDIT: Looks like this spin off is more than full as well!!

Foresight, you are also in as I expect holiday season to create dropouts. Welcome :D

and here we go with the capital as wished by T_McC:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM_1_capital.jpg
aggie, happy about the placing? ;)

(1) - 4000 BC: moves

(2) - 3950 BC: move settler, start roading

(3) - 3900 BC: found our capital, research on 20% (minimum) to IW. i really want to see the iron ASAP, so I will up the rate the second it does anything.

(4) - 3850 BC: the road finished the worker starts mining. 100% research gioves only 1 turn less to IW :( so research stays at min, now 10%!

(5) - 3800 BC:

(6) - 3750 BC:

(7) - 3700 BC:

(8) - 3650 BC: our brand new warrior moves norht to reveal desert and forests on plains. looks like we will not settle towards the northwest for a while :lol: The worker goes to the plains-cow to have it roaded and soon irrigated when the radius expands.

(9) - 3600 BC: a barbarian shows up NW, I move the warrior into his range as it can stay on a hill.

(10) - 3550 BC: growth requires lux - 10% is sufficient. The warrior goes NE onto a mountain - i do not want the fight the 2 barbs now in view. Also, letting them live will draw AI troops - a nicely conveniet way of establishing contacts soon!

(11) - 3500 BC: another warrior, he stays as MP (lux to 0) and barb protection. Irrigation starts. The warriorscout finds wines!

(12) - 3450 BC:

(13) - 3400 BC: expansion means two cows used and shows up a spanish warrior! They are ahead Alpha, Pottery, WC and CB and have 2 workers in their capital.

(14) - 3350 BC: the worker moves to the next cow for the second city.

(15) - 3300 BC: lotsa floodplains in the north - I will now explore to the east

(16) - 3250 BC: size 3 means 10% lux for a turn

(17) - 3200 BC: settler done, lux to 0. I think we should settle on the forest on ther iver, having the wines just outside the 21 directly norht. that way, if we can#t get a city in further north, we still have a good chance to get them soon

(18) - 3150 BC: a hut and borders in the north.

(19) - 3100 BC:

(20) - 3050 BC: Pasargade founded. I choose to use the forest to get a warrior out qucikly for more exploration. The Ottomans are ahead the same techs as Spain; they have three cities while Spain has two. I pop the hut to find barbs to deny the Ottos an advantage from it.

(21) - 300 BC: one trun extra to even years. Our warrior gets killed but two more barbs go off to annoy the Ottos. A new warrior from the capital goes off scouting. I suggest to use the road to send it NE, then off eastwards. I HOPE we find grassland to the SE for two nice cities, maybe three....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1_3000BC.jpg

the savegame (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1-3000BC.SAV)

carlosMM - just plaed
aggie - up now
Tarkeel - on deck
Sir Len Taft
Codo Stejans
T_McC
Foresight

I know Pasagarde is not placed ideally, but I want more commerce ASAP, more troops ASAP, and also something near the wines ASAP that can use that cow. In hindsight I should have gone to the spot just out of the fog southeast that also has it in the 21.

The placement of Pasagardae isn't bad. Tough to have 2 tiles of overlap, but that won't matter until post-Hospitals, and then we'll have 4 Tank and 1 Artillery factory instead of 5 Tanks factories.

Having 8 flood plains in the city radius it should be possible to do an every-other turn worker farm. I don't think an every-turn farm can come before Rails, due to the lack of Hills. Either way we can quickly improve our territory and then use 1 city to grow the other 4. We can go very-shield heavy in the improvements to the other cities.

I guess we should be careful not to have any more overlap, though. Securing a 2nd lux would be very helpful. I think we have enough Hills/Mountains to have a nice shot at Iron.

:( I think Pasagardae should be moved up 1 NE tile and then start placing cities SE of the two cities in the moutain/hill area. That volcano is going to be annoying as well. :(

Hmm ... the difficulty in an nCC game.

There is no tile where we can use the cow and claim the wines. If we wanted to move Pasagardae, I propose going 2 NW. A dotmap is attached.

The 21 usable tiles for each city are also outlined. With the bonus food from the wines, I think blue dot could make 24 spt at size 12, before corruption. The pink dot can use the cow. It is built on a river hill but the local terrain looks very hilly/mountainous so I don't think we lose much by settling on the hill.

hm, experience tells that there's a lot of city moving in 5CC games. I think we should get to Immortals (if we get iron) fast, giving us the main aim of fast warrior/Immortal factories. So i wouldn't bother about overlap that much this early on! We hardly know the map!

carlosMM: I am almost sure that I can't play today. Could I be put further back in the roster?

All that floodplain and hills to the north look very inviting for the 5th city imho. Settling on the hill N-NE of the wines should make a very heavy shield factory in the later stages, as well as securing more hills for potential iron and coal. I'd go with scouting the rivers to the east for our last 2 spots.

Hill city would have:
15 river tiles
10 Floodplain
2 Desert
1 Desert with oasis
3 Hills
1 Hill with wines
3 Mountains

Without railroads, at size 12 that is (with city square production/commerce)
All 4 hils and 3 mountains, and 5 floodplains:
21 production, 26 food, 25 base commerce (12 roads, 11 rivers and 2 from wines)

So it's a bit food heavy, and might be better to move it further north, but that loses the wines.

aggie: np!

Tarkeel: I doubt we can get a city up there - the AIs will have a settler near there already. The Spanish warrior appeared rather wuickly, they should be to the northwest, and in my experience the AIs settle TOWARD the human.....

carlosMM - just played
Tarkeel - up now
Sir Len Taft - on deck
Codo Stejans
T_McC
Foresight


aggie - on hold, drops into the player order on request

I see it and got it, should be able to have it played soon.

IHT: 3000 BC
Cities look good, tech looks bleak.
Not much to do, so end the turn.
Rename warrior outside Persepolis to Earl

(1) 2950 BC
Move Earl to mountains at end of road to have a look at that river. Mainly plains and forest covered grasslands it seems, and quite a few hills and mountains.

IBT:
Ottomans start Oracle
Seville founded on the hill I wanted :P

(2) 2900 BC
Worker starts irrigating for Pas.

(3) 2850 BC
Persepolis: Warrior -> Settler
New warrior (Woody) Starts exploring to the west

(4) 2800 BC
Pasargadae: Warrior -> Warrior, we could use some MP and scouts
New warrior (Noddy) moves NE for scouting
Earl pops a hut in mountain, getting barbs (of course). Needed that hut gone since it would be inside borders of a good city spot. Spot gems

IBT:
Earl redline by barb, but promoted

(5) 2750 BC
Earl rests

(6) 2710 BC
Meet Theodora. She has 25g, Alphabet, Pottery, TW, WC and CB, as well as 2 cities. We spot a lone scout as well as a barbarian SoD (4 warriors and 3 spears)
Noddy pops a hut, as the byzantine scout would pop it the next round, and better barbs then giving them a goodie. We get a free fodder warrior (Neil), which takes over Noddy's job of scouting.
Spain and Ottomans also have TW now.

(7) 2670 BC
Earl attacks barb in forest, easily dispatching him.
Noddy returns home.
Lux to 10% for the 2 turns it takes Persepolis to finish settler

(8) 2630 BC
Spain and Ottomans have IW. We can buy it for 6gpt and 141g, or research in 10 at 10 bpt. Tough choice, but Byzants have 25g and might have techs we don't know about to trade for IW, so decide to buy it from Isa, since she has settled closest to us. Even with Persepolis shrinking and losing 3gpt we won't go negative.
Theo is willing to give both TW and pottery if we add 4gpt and 8g, but this would leave us in debt when Persepolis shrinks, and we would lose 2 gpt for 3 turns tops, which still leaves us positive. I decide to go for it, to get the most bang for the buck.
We have Iron atleast, and 2 horses within reach.

(9) 2590 BC
Persepolis: Settler -> Granary
Pasargadae: Warrior -> Warrior
Noddy redlines vs a barb, but pulls himself together and promotes on killing it.

IBT:
Byzants start Colossus

(10) 2550 BC
Not much.

Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1-2550BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/2550BC1.jpg
Red is horses, blue is Iron, black is furs and white is gems
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/2550BC-2.jpg
I suggest settling on the north tobacco next.

wow, neat, we have iron and horses close.

norht tobacco and then on that gras (?) in the fog, coastal&river, s-sw of the warrior?

carlosMM
Tarkeel - just played
Sir Len Taft - up now
Codo Stejans - on deck
T_McC
Foresight


aggie, shout out where to drop you back in!

Got it, will play this evening. Then I leave on vacation so please skip me for the time being...

IBT
Isabella threatens to declare war if we don't move, I apologise, not ready for that war yet. Byzants start Oracle.

(1) 2510 BC
A stack of Byzantines appear on the volcano to the east, 3 spears and 4 warriors. Hopefully they're not heading for us. :(

(2) 2470 BC
:sleep:

IBT
Neil losses to a barb.

(3) 2430 BC
:sleep:

(4) 2390 BC
Pasargadae: Warrior => Warrior, sent as MP in Persepolis.
Writing on minimum.

(5) 2350 BC
Arbela founded on the northern tobacco, the unknown tile to the north turns out to be a BG. Spain starts Oracle.

(6) 2310 BC
Meet the Aztecs, they know the same as the other AIs (i.e. WC, CB and Alpha), with four additional towns.

(7) 2270 BC
:sleep:

(8) 2230 BC
:sleep:

(9) 2190 BC
Pasargadae: Warrior => Worker

(10) 2150 BC
:sleep:

After Turn Report: Granary is due in one turn in Persepolis, but other than that I have no real comment. Doing good it seems.

SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1-2150BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/2150BC.jpg

Well so far we have Iron claimed, and Horses are behind Perseopolis where no one else can get them.

We are not going to be able to claim Wines with the current location of Pasargadae, the Spanish have a city where the Wines Hill will fall in their 21.

I think we will eventually move Pasagardae, but not right away. It can supply workers for a while until we have a better place to go.

That region N of Arbela is tempting, but we need to be careful to place a city that can feed itself. The map I posted earlier (with Pasagardae moving 2 NW) had a city being founded on the River/Horse hill. That spot has access to the irrigated cow and a flood plain, so can use 6 Hills out of Despotism. Poaching those tiles has little effect on Pasagardae, it can just grab Flood Plains on the other side of the river. The River/Horse hill also dovetails very nicely with the location of Arbela, generating no overlap.

If we do found on the Horse Hill with an eye towards moving Pasagardae, we could have 4 cities producing vet Warriors for upgrade (60 gold per), and Pasagardae pushing workers.

Are we playing Continents or Pangaea? I think we need a coastal city regardless, but it's hard to pick a good spot in the SE. Maybe SW-SW of the Furs? We want to pick a spot that has zero overlap, but also minimizes the water tiles. The spot 2 SW probably maxes out at 13 land tiles.

To next player: Check the MM of Perseopolis, we can make another gold. We will likely build a settler next, it would be nice if it could be timed with growth to size 5.

Other Question: We are playing v.1.22, correct?

Dot-map below: Blue dot is one proposed city, and the 21 it claims. Pink dot is a first guess at a coastal city.

I like your suggest map above, but I think Pasar should be moved soon. With the proposed settlements, that means we could have 3 luxuries, horses, and iron. Letting Pasar go for too long will mean cultural expansion from the AI.

Blue dot looks great and pink dot too, without knowing more of the map. Let's use Pasargadae for workers for a while. We don't need to worry about overlap until we get hospitals. Which doesn't mean that we should wait this long to move it.

And yes, we are playing 1.22.

Blue looks very good, but I'd scout the small peninsula (probably) in the south before deciding on pink.

We should also decide if we want to go for Monarchy or Republic, to focus on the right path. At first glance Monarchy might be best since we'll be doing some heavy Immortal warfare, but we do have enough lux'es to keep our people happy for some time I think. We should anyways try to get CB soon for some cultural expansions.

I think we need 2 workers pr city here, even though we are industrial.

yes, it is 1.22 we use!

I like the suggested city sites - dumb me, I should have pushed north with Pasar....

carlosMM
Tarkeel
Sir Len Taft - just played, on holiday
Codo Stejans - up now
T_McC - on deck
Foresight


aggie, shout out where to drop you back in!

Short-term (before our 1st war): My inclination is to leave Pasagardae in place, for now. The city has enough food to provide workers for our empire, while the other 4 cities build Barracks and Warriors/Spears. If we intend to move Pas NW-NW (1st dotmap I posted), we can't claim the Wines without a cultural expansion, and we won't out-culture a size-3 city from a Religious AI. I have to believe they will build an early, 18-shield Temple. Maybe more on point, we don't have any cultural buildings to build.

Moving Pas NW-N puts the Wines in our initial 9, but the city location is not very good long-term. Too many Flood Plains for the city to ever be able to build anything.

Medium-term (during/slightly after our 1st war): We fight the Spanish and at minimum raze the 1 or 2 cities that would overlap with the location NW-NW of Pas. The Spanish are the likeliest Civ we will fight first, since we don't share borders with anyone else. We get tech for peace, and relocate Pasagardae.

I don't think we can get out of Despotism before our GA, if we want to do an Immortal rush. We are 3-4 techs from Monarchy (I think we have WC), and 5 techs from Republic. We are currently researching Alphabet at 10%, and making 4 gpt. I think we want to aim for Monarchy, I believe most of our research will come at the end of a sword, and no WW and 3 MP should let us run our 5 cities at high population without an oppressive lux tax.

I see two medium-term strategies: Continue min-sci until we accumulate about 600 gold to upgrade Warriors, then push research to finish Alphabet while staying around 600 gold. [We have a couple of deals on-going, I believe we get back 12 gpt in 8 turns.] Buy Writing for pure gpt from anyone but Spain, to open up the tech tree. Hook up the Iron, mass upgrade and charge. [We could hook up the Iron earlier, to build some Immortals from scratch, it's all just a balancing act between cash-for-upgrades and what we have to do to get Writing ASAP. Nothing in the rule book says we can't have 20 Vet Warriors and only horde enough cash to upgrade 10 of them at first.]

Or, we could hook up the Iron ASAP and spend our economy on buying techs so we can switch gov'ts before the Immortal rush. Run little/no research, keep little/no cash on hand, but build an attack force while we wait to revolt. Once we're out of Despotism, charge against the Spanish.

I agree on the pasargade wait - raze the Spanish town and then the wines are ours.

Also, my style usually is to have more warrior than money - that way the increased money during the GA insures a fast and steady streams of built + upgraded Immortals. For the first onslaught, 6 or 7 can do! We do NOT need more than 10 units to raze two cities and extort techs if we carefully plan the war!

got it, will play tonight

6 or 7 Immortals may get the job done, but why not have 12-16 and send two independent stacks. :)

We won't have to wait long to build up a force, as Perseopolis will pull 10 spt once it gets off of settler duty and can settle in at size 6 (may even do it at size 5 with a little less food). Waiting a few turns to allow our 4 cities other than Pasagardae to grow will also net us a bit larger benefit to our GA.

We're not talking about a big difference in time, maybe as little as 5 turns. Two things can control the timing: cash accumulation, and how soon we can buy Writing. I think we can make >20 gpt while still running min Sci, so maybe about 30 turns from now we can go on the attack? We need about 12 more turns to build the final two settlers, then about 5 to get Barracks in Perseopolis, then we can do a vet Warrior/turn.

General plan seems agreed, we'll discuss further details after Codo's turn.

Canada Day today. I won't be discussing too much tonight.

T_McC: if we really will be that rich I am very much in favor of using a much larger force. But the earlier we start the more time will we have not facing Pikemen. That means we can fight more short wars to net us techs. There is no point in fighting an AI longer than necessary to
- make them give us tech
- seriously hurt their growth

once we achieve that, we better make peace and turn our attention to the next AI!
and for that, usually, 10 units, 2 spears, 2 archers, 6 Immos, are sufficient!

Since we are going to trigger our GA by attacking, I feel we should hold off until we have founded all 5 cities. I'm guessing about 15 turns to do that.

Then, I feel the trigger to attack would be when we could buy Writing. That way we can extort more expensive techs, and possibly get something to trade for the other, cheaper techs. If we went to break-even science, I think Alphabet is due in 22. We get some gpt back in about 8 turns so we'll either get Alphabet sooner, or have a few turns to accumulate cash. It may be that all things will be in place to attack with 6 Immortals, we'll see when we get there.

But we aren't looking to start a war in the next 10 turns.

Inherited 1250
Everything looks ok, do the diplomatic rounds, but we don't have any cash and from reading previous posts, I don't think we plan on using money directly to get techs. We'll use our money to build our immortals and let them do our research.

IBT

1) 2110 BC

Persepolis: Granary->settler
I move some warriors around to continue exploring.
The workner near Pas starts roading the forest. I think we want to wait a bit to hook up the iron.

IBT:
Spain starts the Pyramids and completes the Colossus in Madrid.

2) 2070 BC
zzzZZ, I do start to move a warrior to Arabela.

IBT
Byzantines start the Oracle. Byzantines start the pyramids.
Aztecs found a city in an open spot in the middle of spanish territory.

3) 2030 BC
stop warrior moving towards Arabela, because it will build a warrior same turn it grows. Leave it near the horses for the settler.

IBT
zzz

4) 1990BC

Pasargadae: worker->warrior. I don't want it to fall to size 1 yet. and we want some upgrade fodder

Nothing new on the tech front

IBT:
Persepolis riots when it grows. My fault.. I even looked at it in 1990BC and just spaced its happiness

5) 1950BC
Lux to 10%
Arabela: warrior->worker

IBT
Isabella comes demanding 20 gold. We aren't ready to fight her yet, but we're trying to save money, and if she comes calling every 5 turns asking for our savings, we aren't going to get much saved. We might want to consider hooking up our iron asap and preparing to change her tone from demanding to pleading for her life. Give her the 20 gold.
Volcano near Persepolis becomes active

6) 1910BC
Zzz, we will be able to lower lux tax next turn.

IBT
Persepolis: settler->settler
Ottomans start ToA

7) 1870BC
settler moves towards horse spot (blue dot)
workers road BG near Persopolis and road to the blue dot.
Lux back to 0

IBT
Zzz

8) 1830BC
Zzz

IBT
Pasargadae: warrior->worker

9) 1790BC
settler reaches blue dot

IBT
Arbela: worker->barracks. We'll want vets coming from somewhere and since this is my last turn, this can be overriden.
Spanish begin ToA

10) 1750BC
Found Antioch on the blue dot. We now have horses hooked up. Set build to spearman for now.

We have 43 gold in the bank, and make +15gpt. I think the next worker out of Pasargadae should hook up our iron and let us begin the age of the immortals.
Persepolis will build a settler in 2, perhaps for the pink dot

Got it.

And playing ...

cMM1 - 5CC of Pure Adrenaline!

1750 BC (0)
I'm a little disappointed we haven't further scouted the SE, but that'll get done.

Swap a couple of builds: Antioch to Barracks, Perseopolis from Settler to Barracks. No one should be able to beat us to a spot in the SE, and this way the capital won't drop to size 2.

I agree that we will have a hard time accumulating money, so I pump science to 90% to get Alphabet in 7. After that we can settle back to min-sci and buy Writing. Izzy should leave us in peace for a little while. We may not reciprocate the generosity. :)

I'm going to bring the vet Warrior back from scouting, and send a regular in his place. All vets should be available for upgrade.

1725 BC (1)
Perseopolis grows so lux goes to 10%, and we are running a 1 gpt deficit.

There is a civ we haven't met NE of Spain, sending Woody to crash the party for us.

1700 BC (2)
Ottomans complete the Oracle, and start the Pyramids.

1675 BC (3)
There is an Ottoman Spear/Warrior pair wandering around. No idea where they are going.

The Spanish have settled another city that impinges on the eventual location of Pasargadae. More to burn. :devil2:

Perseopolis: Barracks --> Settler. At size 5, Perseopolis can make 11 spt.
Pasargadea: Worker --> Worker

Warriors keep wandering. Found a Whale SE of Perseopolis, but not in a good location.

1650 BC (4)
Boy, I don't like the way the Ottoman pair is moving.

Bump lux tax to 20% to keep Perseopolis happy, and set tiles so growth and Settler are both due in 3.

1625 BC (5)
The mystery civ was the Ottomans, so Woody will go back to hacking west.

Haven't found anything else interesting in the SE, except for the anticipated fish.

Alphabet due in 1, and we can't lower the sliders.

1600 BC (6)
Osman gives us the boot.

Alphabet comes in, science to 0%. All the AI have the same techs (all visible). We make 16 gpt at 0% science.

It would take almost our entire economy to buy Writing, so I wait.

Southern scout sees Tundra, so nothing much more down that way. Pink Dot seems good.

1575 BC (7)
Perseopolis builds a Settler, falls back to size 4. Begins on a Spear, because we make an ugly 9 spt at size 4.

Lux back down to 10%, we now make +19 gpt.

1550 BC (8)
Pasargadae back to size 1 with another worker built. Having the FP's irrigated should allow us to get on a better schedule.

1525 BC (9)
Nothing interesting, just our Settler staying 1 step ahead of the Ottoman Spear/Warrior pair. They only appear to be out for a stroll.

1500 BC (10)
Persopolis grows, lux tax to 20%. Spear completes, begin 1-turn vet Warriors.

Shuffle units.

Final Notes:
We make 17 gpt, and aren't paying anyone. There is a Warrior near Perseopolis that is intended to go to Antioch as MP. Given that we have to run 20% lux to keep Perseopolis happy, we may not need the MP but it can't hurt.

After that FP is irrigated, there should be enough improved tiles so that Pasargadae can work entirely NW of the river and cede the tiles SE to Antioch.

Picture to follow.

Picture of our SE.

Pink dot has already been proposed, and is not a bad site. Yellow dot is what I see as the maximum # of land tiles for us to claim, but will have a harder time getting started and has to build an Aqueduct.

Got it. Re-Reading over the pages to make sure I know what everyone wants. Will wait a few hours before starting.

A few decisions have to be made:

You get to pick where the settler goes. I lean towards the pink dot, because it can be productive sooner, but only having 12 land tiles makes it a fairly lousy city late in the game. Wherever the city is founded, it may be a candidate for a late-game relocation when we're trying to secure Rubber or Coal.

Our economy isn't as strong as I had hoped, we can't buy Writing and still build up much cash. Not a huge problem, there are 4 visible techs to pointy-stick from Izzy. We'll just get the post-Writing techs elsewhere. :hammer:

Right now, only Perseopolis is building military. You can produce a Warrior/turn, but we only make enough money to upgrade about 1 every 3 turns. We can start our first war sooner by hooking up the Iron and building 3-turn Immortals in Perseopolis, but we'll have a stronger military for our 2nd war by building a pile of Warriors to upgrade with GA cash. Regardless how you handle it, it may be rushing things to attack on your turn.

I think we can toast 3-4 Spanish cities, and make a tidy profit. But that level of attack probably requires 10+ Immortals. We can be close to that by the end of your turns.

I think I am going to time it so the next person in the list gets to start the war. I will continue building our army, place the city on the PINK DOT because if we are going to war early/often, we will need help in every place.

Connect the newly founded furs, hook up the iron, and connec the fifth city. Maybe, make a road to the Gems, for when someone eventually gets a culture building and expands the borders.

EDIT: We should probably get a vote on what dot to place the city on. I am still getting use to this SG format and am trying to not go off on my own and do as I please. :)

decision time:

as I said before, alternating wars for a tech or two to equally slow all neighbouring AIs seem best to me. A simple reason for this is that they need to get geared up for war, too, moving troops and rushing defenders - if the war is too short for that to come into effect we have to fight less - good for us!
Also, not buying Writing then doesn't hurt us at all!

I am most definately for the pink spot - we need to grow strong NOW, not in the IA - by then we should already BE strong!

I like the pink dot more than the yellow dot. It's on a river and two of the sea tiles have fish. This compensates the fewer land squares imho.

I agree on the pink spot as well.

I haven't looked at the save, but I can only see 1 or 2 workers in the pic? We need a few more for roading etc.

Also looks like the Ottomans are next after spain, to kick out that city they intend to place in the south.

So sounds like Pink dot carries the vote. I agree, the lack of land tiles won't come up until post-Hospitals and the fish make it a low-maintenance site (can just leave the forests as they are).

We do have more workers. There are 3 standing on the tile N of Pasargadae. One is irrigating, 2 just finished roading. Might as well set the two to irrigate as well so the job finishes on the 1st turn. After that the only improvement remaining at Pasargadae is to road the Iron.

One other worker note: The units standing next to the two workers in the picture are Ottomans. By all appearances they are just exploring, they haven't entered our cultural boundaries.

Pasargadae would be happy at size 3 so I don't see a good reason not to let it grow to that size before the worker completes. When we want to re-locate it, it will be easy to spin out a worker and then hit break-even food at size 2 to disband the city.

I might look to hook up the Iron late in Foresight's turn, rather than early. Right now, Perseopolis is the only city that is producing units. If we wait until about turn 7 our other two Barracks cities can start Warriors (I don't think the build order will automatically change when we obtain the resource). I think that will give us about 12 Warriors to upgrade and maybe 2 hand-built Immortals by the end of the round, and we'll have about 300 gold to upgrade with.

Sounds good. Will have the game posted in a few hours. Pink dot it is. I was thinking about not hooking up the iron right away as well. Depends how much cash we are packing, though. We don't want so many warriors that it will take us forever to get them all upgraded.

First Clicky

Osman wants 24 gold - I give - He has a warrior/spearmen by our workers, not worth risking war with him.

England finishes Pyramids

Aztecs building TOA

Move two workers into place for future terrain development

1450

Persp Warrior > warrior Culture Expands

Byzantine building TOA
Spain building TOA
Otts building TOA
Otts building G. Wall
Worker (1) connecting iron...done in 6 turns
We meet Korea

1425

Persp Warrior > worker

Gordium Founded > barracks
Bring southern warrior to it

1400

Persp worker > warrior
Otts turned back

1375

Persp warrior > warrior
Antioch barracks > warrior
Iron 3 turns away

1350

Persp warrior > warrior
Psargad - Disease -1 pop
Arbela Barracks > warrior
Spain starts connecting their wines

1325

Persp warrior > worker
Aztecs finish TOA
Psar - disease - 1 pop down to size 1

1300

Persp worker > immortal
Antioch immortal
Byzantine building Great lighthouse
Spain building G.Wall
Spain building MoM
Spain finishes G.Wall
Spain building Great Lighthouse
Otts building MoM
Otts Finish MoM

1275
Otts ask us to leave (no automatic boot) Byzantine same offer
Byzantine building Hanging Garden
Byzantine finishes Great Lighthouse
Furs connected by road (need to plant a colony on them)
Placed a mine outside of Persp for future use///road building there as well for when we have to attack Spain...quicker movement points

Last move

Arbela warrior > immortal
Upgraded as many warriors as possible

60 gold per warrior to upgrade

All cities are connected

We need to place a colony on the furs or get one on the gems so Persp can pump out immortals in only 1-2 turns instead of 3.

Currently we have 4 immortals/13 warriors

I hope you guys weren't planning on me starting the war because I sure wasn't ready with how many immortals I had on my turn. Next person should have a hay-day with them, though.

Here is a screenshot.

The two black arrows points to Spanish territory and the one by Persp I have a road being built towards the newly founded city.

Yeah, we either need a colony or we need a cultural building to build. :lol:

Lux Colonies are good uses for slaves we capture or get from razing Spanish cities. I'm not sure we want to give up one of our Industrious workers yet. (Remember, in C3C slaves work at 1/2 normal rate or 1/3 Industrious rate). Eventually we will have an all-slave work force but I think we are better off re-claiming our population by merging our workers back into our cities.

So it looks like carlosMM will have his 6 Immortals by his 3rd turn. Only bad thing on the last turn was that Spain built the Great Wall. It would really be a problem if the AI also built vet troops, but I figure vet Immortals vs. regular Spears behind walls is still solidly in our favor.

Once we upgrade all of our Warriors, I think we should use our GA to build some Temples and research at least 1-2 techs. I don't think we should accumulate cash just to give it to one of the AI in exchange for tech.

Since we now have a 2nd source of Horses in our territory, maybe we should see if the Ottos lack the resource. If they do we can connect to their road network and not have many worries about a blown rep.

Checked the save:

The Ottos lack Horses, and the Byz lack Horses and Iron. So once we hook into their road networks we can get a good discount on tech.

Next player should check the MM, particularly for growth.

Unfortunately, the two Spanish cities that are visible are built on Hills. We should be patient and make sure our initial strike force is large enough to get the job done on the first try. Probably means go with 8 instead of 6.

Arbela and Antioch can be MM'd to get Immortals out faster.

I have it!

preturn: all OK

(1) - 1225 BC: Theodora kicks our scouting unit.
(2) - 1200 BC: Orange border spotted beyond Byzantine lands
(3) - 1175 BC: running norht to the orange border.
(4) - 1150 BC: ha! an orange warrior/settler combo shows up next to Arbela! They belong to Lizzy! Why go exploring at all??? :lol:
(5) - 1125 BC: Now is a time as good as any other - I do not want to delay our first war anymore. I move Immos towards Otto! 1 upgrade! aargh, a Byz warrior is in the way....
(6) - 1100 BC: the Spanish have a LOT of warriors standing around...
(7) - 1075 BC: I declare war on the Ottomans, then move our troops in.
(8) - 1050 BC: hm, a GERMAN town is founded nearby.... so Otto has found his way around as well. 2 Spears expire and Sinop is ours! well, rather, it is razed, as it would be city 6.
(9) - 1025 BC: I see a Pikeman in Istanbul! :(
(10) - 1000 BC: pushing towards Salonica.

I suggest to keep pushing, as soon as they talk peace we accept, swing west (use high terain!) and nail Spain from two sides!

I have intentionally left a few Immos on the roads - this way we may be able to bag a settler and do not need to fear landing parties. Keep a lookout on ships so you know what is afloat - then you cna withdraw the Immos for attacks!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM_1000.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM-1000BC.SAV

carlosMM - just played
Tarkeel - up now
Sir Len Taft - on holiday
Codo Stejans - on deck
aggie
T_McC
Foresight

I see it, won't be able to play for several hours though.

Any special reason for attacking the Ottomans instead of the Spanish?

Tarkeel: a big one, it is called the Great Wall!
But there's more: Our attack into Seville would
a) come across flat land
b) pass the stack of Spanish warriors
c) go across a river

By going for the Ottos first we can now approach Seville from the east, on hgih ground and without crossing the river.

btw, I roaded quite a few tiles that may appear useless - e.g. the mountain next to persepolis. The reason for this is - and I want that continued by all players - that fast troop movements are vital to us, and roading BOTH sides of rivers insures better use of the 1 move of immortals. We will always have few troops - make sure they can get to where needed in time!

(0) 1000 BC
MM Persepolis from forest to grassland by river, gain 1 food and 2 commerce, still 2 turn immortal factory. MM Pasaragadae to floodplain.

IBT:
Ottoman archer attacks our warrior, injuring it 2.
Aztecs start Sun Tzu

(1) 975 BC
Move forces

IBT:
Ottoman archer finishes of the wounded warrior.
Byzants(Varna) and Spain (Santiago) start Great Library

(2) 950 BC
Persepolis: Immortal -> Immortal
Arbela: Immortal -> Immortal
Attack Salonika:
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 3/4 Spear
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 1/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/4 Spear -> 4/5 Immortal, razing Salonika
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Archer -> 1/4 Immortal

Osman has MI's running around now, and is willing to talk:
Get Writing, CB and 8g for Peace, max price (he has 4 more gold).

Diplo check:
Korea has WC, Myst, Math and MM. 29g.
Ottomans has WC, Myst, Math, Philo, CoL and MM. 4g
Byzants has WC, Myst, Math, Philo, CoL, MM and Lit. 35g
Spain has WC, Myst, Math, Philo, CoL, MM and Lit. 4g
England has WC, Myst, Math, Philo, CoL, and MM. 30g
Germany has WC, Myst, Math, Philo, CoL, and MM. 2g
Aztecs has WC, Myst, Math, Philo, CoL, and MM. 6g

Looks like Korea is in dodo as well, and if we can get lit from Spain we should have a way out of this.

(3) 925 BC
Antioch: Immortal -> Immortal
Gordium: Barracks -> Immortal
Move and rest troops for attack.

IBT:
Bonn founded on the NW attackroute :(

(4) 900 BC
Persepolis: Immortal -> Immortal
Move and rest.

IBT:
Our forces are kicked out from Bonn
Ottomans start Great Library

(5) 875 BC
Antioch: Immortal -> Immortal
MM Arbela to grasslands, still due in 2.
Ready to attack next turn.

IBT:
Uskudars borders have expanded, and we get kicked out.
Newcastle (English) Finish SoZ

(6) 850 BC
Persepolis: Immortal -> Immortal
Pasargadae: Worker -> Settler. Can be vetoed, but time to move it soon.
Tell Izzy to remove her settler and warrior, and she declares. Drop lux to 10% from warhappines, at the cost of turning one worker (unmined grass, so only lose food) to tax collector
5/5 Immortal vs 4/4 Warrior -> 5/5 Immortal
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1-850BC.jpg

IBT:
Warrior SoD doesn't attack, but moves past us. We'll have to prune it.
Constantinople (Byzants) finishes the Hanging Gardens.
Spain (Madrid), Germany (Berlin) and Ottomans (Izmit) cascades to Great Library
Spanish spear and settlers land in the south, we have an Immortal there to take care of it.

(7) 825 BC
Arbela: Immortal -> Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 4/4 Warrior -> 3/4 Immortal and 2 slaves.
5/5 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 5/5 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 3/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 4/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 2/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 5/5 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 2/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 2/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 2/2 Warrior -> 4/4 Immortal

(8) 800 BC
Persepolis: Immortal -> Immortal
5/5 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 3/5 Immortal
5/5 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 3/5 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 3/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Archer -> 4/4 Immortal

Attacking Seville:
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 4/4 Immortal
5/5 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 1/5 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 3/3 Spear
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 1/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 2/5 Immortal, killing 2 settlers and razing it, netting us a total of 6 slaves.

(9) 775 BC
Antioch: Immortal -> Immortal
Switch Gordium to a temple due in 8, to grab furs and press Naissus
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 4/4 Immortal, killing Settler for 2 more slaves.
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Warrior -> 3/4 Immortal
Attack Valencia:
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 3/4 Immortal

IBT:
Aztecs start Great Library

(10) 750 BC
Persepolis: Immortal -> Immortal
Attack Valencia:
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 1/3 Spear
3/4 Immortal vs 1/3 Spear -> 3/4 Immortal, razing it for 1 worker.

Kills: 9 Spears, 2 Archer, 14 Warrior, 4 Settler
Losses: 3 Immortal, 1 Warrior
Elite wins: 4

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1-750BC.jpg

Military plans for the future: We have 4 Immortal coming up the west coast, along with a roading team. Reinforce this front. The eastern hill front has 15 Immortals, but spread out a lil bit right now. There must be a city in the fog, NW of the mountain. Should be good to send 4 Immortals to pounce on it. The Spanish haven't sent any counterattacks yet, only the warrior SoD which was easily decimated.

Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1-750BC.SAV)

Yikes, the way this is going, there may not be any Civs left before we lose all of our Immortals.

EDIT: Is it almost time to move our city closer to the wines?

Nice!! We can get almost all their techs for peace. That's a bonus and it can only get better :)

EDIT: Then again: a lot of the AI is in the MA already. Did we miss a couple of tech trade opportunities?

We might want to hold on setting the 5th city down.. If spain finishes the great library, we want to be able to hold it for a turn to benefit.

We could hit Byzantines next because they have so many small cities surrounding us.

Our capital doesn't grow and has a taxman. Why is that? Also...: Are we trying to get back in the tech race with our immortals alone? We could have used our free tech in the MA. That's what we did in 'Five take on the world', in a worse position than this one. But with 4 scientific civs in the MA already that chance has gone. Too bad. We missed an opportunity here.

EDIT: OK, I checked CarlosMM's save as well and see that the AI was MA there already. I have been too busy the last couple of days it seems to keep up. But we haven't made progress since and I think that's not good.

I didn't check much for trades, since all except Korea was far ahead, and we didn't have much to barter with. Persepolis has a taxman to gain us gold, it was the only city that needed more lux. Be wary for when war happiness runs out though.

This is a big if, but it might solve all our problems.. If Madrid finishes Great Library, we should be able to take it and hold it for a turn, if the 5th city hasn't been resettled yet.

I don't like such a Great Library gambit :(

EDIT: The fact that we are way behind doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to broker ourselves back into the race. Especially now, with spain wanting to give us so much, I think that it is very important to get a few cheap 1st level techs.

I rather see lux tax higher than a city not growing. Growth is key to get a more money and more shields...

The Great Library Gambit might work, but I wouldn't count on it. We can't stay at war with Izzy for 25 more turns just so she can finish the Library for us.

It looks like we will be able to move our city in about 8 turns, keep our military milling around the area so nobody else settles in our spot. We can always raze whatever gets built there, but it'll be easier if we don't have to.

Agreed the Byz put a bullseye on their forehead by settling three crap towns next to our borders. Pointy-stick victim #3 coming up! And then it should be Otto's turn. Two small cities we can raze on the first turn of the war.

I was alarmed by how fast tech was moving, but this is Deity and it doesn't seem like the AI are fighting amongst themselves. Having 4 Scientific civs in the game didn't help.

The unexpected setback was that our 2nd city had to be moved. We've been effectively OCC'ing until our GA. Now that we're picking up slaves, we can probably start to think about merging some of our workers back in to our cities. (Or making Lux colonies with the slaves.) Once we get our 3 lux hooked up and our pop up, our economy will look a lot better and we can get back into the trading game. Plus we have two (fairly) easy victims to pointy-stick. I'm not worried yet, we can get the balance of the AA with Immortals.

One other question: Are we finished with upgrading Warriors yet? We could use the balance of our GA to research a tech (like Mysticism or Math) to open up a more expensive tech for the Spanish to give us.

[Edit: It seems we are having great kill ratios. Do we want to use the balance of the GA for some infrastructure? A Temple in Persopolis pays for itself and then some, plus we need a border expansion to claim the Gems. We do have to be a little careful about unit costs.]

We have 2 veteran warriors waiting for upgrade, but one of those is MP atm. We are running very high in unit costs, so might be best to grab some infrastructure while GA is still going.

The southern cities weren't finished being improved, which hurt us a lot during the GA.

We can start pumping in our native workers soon, we have quite a few slaves already.

One reason for those killratios, is that they haven't counterattacked once yet.

Re Great Library gambit, we can always go back and grab it later, as long as it's before we get education, but then we have to disband a city first.

I know a city that we have that should be named "crap" that we always have choice of disbanding.

wow, someone here has a *very* lucky hand with the RNG! :thumbsup:
and the campaign was beautifully executed, too!

I will find time to look a tthe save before lunch - please no playing until i have ;)

Hm, as it is we cannot get a good deal (leaving us enough cash and income for unit cost) for any tech that might allow us to gain advanced techs in peace with Spain.

I'd suggest taking what they give, leaving WC out (they won't give all), take their money, too, then hope and pray Korea lacks one of the advanced techs we gain - maybe, if we are lucky, Literature or so. That shoudl ent us WC, too.

Then, a war with Germany might be an option - raze the two cities, then proceed for the next bulls-eyed lands: Byzantine! Raze raze raze, and as soon as german units walk up kill a few and make peace. Preceed with the Byzantines....

what do you all think?

How long would it take us to research Mysticism or Math? (or WC?)

If I'm remembering the map correctly, we can raze 1 more Spanish city. Are our troops in a good position to whack the city under the fog? We need to hit that city if we want to relocate Pasargadae. One more pile of rubble may get us all visible tech from Izzy.

Then our army crosses paths with the settler re-locating Pasargadae, and we hit the Germans. Two burned cities in a 7-8 turn war might get us another couple of techs (@ last), or at least 1 we can trade to the Koreans. Then we try to hit the Byz for one of the first-row MA techs.

Sir Len is on vacation if reading the order is correct. Guess I'm up.

Sorry for not particpating in the discussions so far. Work has been a nightmare lately. I have been reading all the comments however. I'll probably post some questions/observations tonight when I look at the last save.

Codo, you are up indeed!

research is not a good option I think - we are short on money. Remember, we are in the GA and plan to have MORE troops, not fewer!

Another problem is that Korean settler. I bet you a dinner that they will settle where they stand now.

Sorry for the delay guys..
I read, and reread the discussion so far. I agree that peace with the Spanish is a good idea. The GL gambit isn't worth the extended war, IMHO. I am not sure who should be next Germans or Byzantines, so we'll see. I am going to continue to build our immortals during the first part of my tenure, and then switch to some infrastructure if things are going well.

Inherited turn:

I dial up the Spanish and see that they will give us all their tier one techs, besides WC, along with their two gold. Done.

Korea will give us WC+33 gold for Literature. Its available to everyone, so it seems like a good idea to get it while the going is good. The English also will trade, ooh. and for more money.
Sell Lit to Englandfor WC+40 gold.
Then turn around and sell Lit to Korea for HR+13 gold.

Deciding on who to go after next.....

We can go after the germans, but they only have 2 cities in the immediate area. They have 12 cities, so we could take 2 and sue for peace. However the byzantines have 10 cities, and we could quickly destroy 4 of them. Will the peace talks after destroying 40% of a nations cities be more favorable than with a nation we take less than 10% of their cities? ...

I raise lux to 20% because the peace treaty would cause Persepolis to riot. I then put the taxman back to work in the fields.

Hit Enter

IBT:
wouldn't you know it. Theodora comes demanding 23 gold. I guess she didn't like having her messenger returned to her with his head missing, because she declares on us. Guess that solves who we are going after next.

The Koreans do settle where they were, but I don't think it's a big deal.

1) 730 BC
I start shuffling our troops towards our western front. Kinda sucks not to attack Germany, because we are right there, but, such is life.

I'm not sure what the workers are doing on the northwestern shore. They are building a road to the destroyed spanish town? For our 5th? I let them finish the piece of the road, and leave 2 Immortals there for protection. Also, the workers

Notice we have horses on the shore near Persepolis

IBT
A Byzantine warrior attacks our spy (Im assuming its a spy) warrior that is fortified on a mountain. It loses without injuring our warrior. Several spearman move around in Byzantine territory.

Several people start Sun Tsu.

2) 710 BC
Persepolis: immortal->immortal
Antioch: immortal->immortal
Arbela: immortal->immortal

We have what I think is a lot of workers. With no temples, we pretty much have all our first ring tiles improved, and I'm not sure what we want to do with them. We could begin populating our towns, but without any form of happiness builders besides money, that might not be such a good idea.

I continue moving our immortals south-easterly

IBT
Ottomans ask us to leave their territory.. ok

3) 690BC
Just continue to move our immortals into position to wail on the Byzantines

IBT
Zzzzz

4) 670BC
Zzzz.. still moving troops

IBT
Byzantine troops in the mountains northeast of Arbela.

5) 650BC
Our troops are in position now to defend Arbela and destroy the Byzantine troops when they change their mind about attacking. We are almost ready to attack.

Doing a round of diplomacy shows that the Aztecs and the Ottomans are the tech leaders and are about to enter the Middle Ages. Everyone else besides Korea are close behind only lacking Republic.

IBT
A Byzantine boat is on our western shores. I will move a couple immortals to intercept them if they land near our horses. A Byzantine archer comes out of the fog and attacks one of our immortals, but loses.

6) 630BC
I attack a Byzantine spearman in the mountains in German territory. I don't like attacking on mountain terrain, but they aren't fortified, and I'm feeling like attacking someone! We win.

I also attack the spearman+2 warrior stack in the mountains NW of Arbela. We lose an immortal destroying them.

IBT
Byzantines have horsemen now and they attack our mountain spy near their city of Nicea, but lose :D we promote to veteran

Spanish finish the Great Library in Madrid, everyone switches to Sun Tzu's.

7) 610 BC
Arbela: immortal->temple we need to expand our borders so we can put our workers to better use and get bigger faster. Our forces are outside the gates of the Byzantine's southern most city Naissus.. It falls next turn. We are closing in on Chalcedon as well, and repositioning to attack Sardica, but that will probably be the next players pleasure.

IBT
Byzantines drop a single warrior off near our horses. We have forces in the area to handle them.

The Byzantines kill our spy

8) 590BC

Attack on Naissus:
Elite loses to a spearman
Veteran kills spearman promotes to elite
veteran kills archer
Noddy attacks wounded spearman and the city burns

IBT
Golden age ends..
Byzantine troops start appearing

9) 570BC
Archers appeared outside Chacledon, I was still waiting for the final assault force to gather, so I delay the attack on Chalcedon and kill the archer.

Another appeared near Sardica, and is dispatched.

IBT
Gordium's borders expand. We also have furs hooked up now, but I'm trying to figure out from where. Ah they were roaded and fell in our cultural boundaries when Gordium expanded.

10) 550BC

Our forces are prepared to attack Chalcedon, but after it took 4 regiments to destroy Naissus, I'll leave it to the next player to attack with our full force. We are also outside the gates of Sardica and ready.

Pasargadae will be ready to be moved next turn when it's settler is completed.

Oh I forgot, when Gordium finished it's temple I started on a harbor. There is enough time to veto if needed.

I also positioned a few regiments near the German borders so we can swoop in there when the time comes.

Have fun storming the castle!

If I'm reading the roster correctly, Aggie is up.

Nice trading, but why did we make peace with Spain right away?

Which leads into my next question: Since Pasargadae is going to produce a settler next turn, where exactly do we intend to move it? Especially because the spot we originally wanted is still occupied by a Spanish city that should have been razed during our war.

The good news is that we are already close to Construction for Peace from the Byzantines. Whacking another couple of cities might get us 2 of the 3 required techs to enter the MA, and we may be able to trade Construction to Wang to get the last required tech. (Hopefully he's researching Republic or Monarchy.)

Maybe Arbela should build a Library (or a Temple) to get the border expansion we need to claim the Gems.

Well, the troops have been left in a very nice position to inflict major damage and end the Byz war after 1 turn. Or we could try to press on, either way.

Do we want to aim for Monarchy or Republic? Having MP is nice, but with all the river tiles we work we may be able to swing a relatively low lux tax anyway. But the big problem: We'd be paying at least 70 gpt in unit support if we were a Republic. (We're only going to get 10 units supported for free). Monarchy could be as low as 25 gpt, so in conjunction with the MP I think we'll come out ahead in Monarchy. Plus no WW.

I made peace with Spain right away, to get the benefit of her tech trades, and because there wasn't anymore real gain from continuing the war. I was then able to move our troops to our eastern borders to begin the assault on the Byzantines. I felt that was the general concensus on our plan. If I was wrong, I apologize.

I'm also not sure where exactly to move Pasagardae. Maybe I'm confused, but I'm sure we destroyed the spanish city that was in our way. Unfortunately, Korea got there before we could. This isn't a problem in my opinion. I don't remember even seeing them anywhere near us. That little outpost will fall quickly. But I do think we should wait until our war with Byzantinium is finished so that we can try to get some trades with Wang before destroying his little outpost.

I already started Arblela on a temple so that it can expand it's borders. I'm very new to SGs, and a complete newb with diety, so any comments/critisicms on my actions are welcome.

You did fine Codo. Korea is far north west. We can take out their village and take that spot. By the time they make it to our empire, it will be 20 turns and we will get peace. Right now, we need to keep any war going that we can.

Codo, there was another spanish city hiding in the fog behind the mountains. Just look at the cultural borders and you'll know where it has to be :) No worries, we can always beat her up again in another 10 turns, which we probably should anyways, which is why the workers were building a road up her western flank.

Edit: Since we're scientific, Libraries are better then temples if you just want culture, but we need the happines from temples as well, so agree on Arbela.

hey, Codo, good play! I especially like your cautious appraoch to war. We can#t afford to squaner our forces after all.

aggie is up.

We can go slow on the techs now, actually, as we can simply get more Immortals, then take the Great Lib.

I don't know if I can take it today. But surely tomorrow.

I thought the Spanish war had two objectives: Pointy-stick research and clearing a better spot for Pasargadae.

We accomplished the first just fine, and we are in a position to really benefit from the Byzantine war that Codo got started. I suspect the Byz will be very impressed with us after we burn those two cities on Aggie's first turn. And in looking at the save, Korea is still in the AA as well so we can trade with them. Plus we'll get a free tech when we leave the AA, maybe not everyone has all the first-row techs yet. Aggie could have a very eventful first turn!

As far as where Pasargadae should be moved to ... I don't think we want the spot that Korea founded on, there aren't enough shields there. Too many Flood Plains for a 5CC. Plus, if we found there the Iron will fall out of our cultural borders. I don't think we can be in a position to fight a war every time we need Iron.

I think the new city should be NW-NW of Pasargadae. Three Hills, Three Mountains, plus a bunch of forests and plains to go with the Flood Plains means sufficient shields. That spot also puts both the Iron and the Wines in our 21. Founding on that spot requires the Spanish city in the fog to be razed.

For now, we can just build the settler (not disband the city, we need the unit support) and set Pasargadae to max food and let it build catapults. When we attack the Spanish again, having a few Catapults could make it much easier to take down walled cities.

Codo didn't do anything wrong, we just didn't have a sufficiently detailed discussion beforehand to make a clear plan. We'll get another crack at the Spanish in 15-20 turns, whenever we get done with der Kaiser and feel up to a second round.

One other thing I noticed from the save: Perseopolis could use a Temple, it'll pay for itself and then some.

aggie: take your time! :)

T_McC: indeed we shoudl not settle on the Korea spot.
But there is one important thing now that Spain ahs the Great Lib: I am AGAINST abandoning Pasa right now, then abaondon ANOTHER town to keep the Great Lib for one turn.

So we should keep the town and wait to see if and when it will be convenient to grab the Great Lib. Perhaps we can poush it back to just when Indus age comes round? In that case we might get a LOT of tech from it!

Actually, I was thinking ...

Wasn't one of the sub-variants of this game that we wouldn't build the Great Library? If that was the case, I find it disingenuous to say "We won't spend 400 shields and have a wonder that expires with Education", but "We will capture the Great Library and derive more benefit than we could by building it, and not have to invest the shields".

So if we agreed not to try to build the Great Library, we shouldn't capture it either. We aren't far enough behind that capturing it is the only way we can win.

[Edit: Never mind. That discussion in this thread was between me and a Grumpy Old Man that isn't even in this particular game. But I still think we don't need to capture the Great Library.]

[2nd Edit: I'll go along with whatever plan we decide on, but if we do want to wait to abandon Pasargadae, switch it off the settler. We don't need a settler sitting around for ~80 turns before we can use it.]

We are allowed to build or capture TGL afaik. However, it is true that lately I see a lot of my SG's aiming to capture this wonder. It may be the only way to win in AG12, but I agree with T_McC that we shouldn't see that as the only way to advance in this one. That's why I didn't like us ignoring tech trade and use of our free tech, especially when we didn't know that Spain would build it first.

Otoh: Spain is our neighbour and we have a very strong unit. Two very good reason to go this route in this case.

Who is the grumpy old man?

Who is the grumpy old man?

Our pal Greebley (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=90672) .

IHT: I can only conclude that we are in very fine shape for a 5CC deity game :)
As discussed, I change Pasargadae from settler something else. I choose to build an immortal. It will be a regular one, but I don't want to switch to an improvement when we want to abandon it.
Persepolis switched to temple, Lux tax to 10%. Persepolis is put to more growth, despite losing a turn on the temple. We are strong compared to Germany and Byzantines (in fact, we are strong vs the whole world). I don't want to lose this momentum, so I will probably continue with wars after making peace with Theodora.

Attacking Chaldecon:
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 3/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 3/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 archer -> 2/4 Immortal. The city is razed.

IT: A Byzantine horse is killed by an immortal (2/4 left). Pasargadae: immortal->catapult.

Turn 1 (530 BC)

Sardica:
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 2/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 Spear -> 1/3 Spear
4/5 Immortal vs 1/3 Spear -> 4/5 Immortal, the city is gone.


Outside the Byzantine borders:
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 archer -> 3/4 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 archer -> 5/5 Immortal
4/4 Immortal vs 4/4 horseSpear -> 3/5 Immortal, no leader

Theodora must love us very much, because we can get Construction, Currency and Polytheism, 3 gpt for peace. :love: I don't agree however.

Turn 2 (510 BC) Outside Heraclae:
5/5 immortal vs 3/3 spear ->3/5 immortal. Heraclea is defended by a pike.

I move more troops to the German borders.

IT: The Byzantines kill the 3/5 immortal and a 4/4 immortal with 2 reg horses. Ottomans start Sistine. Persepolis: temple->immortal.

Turn 3 (490 BC) Vet immortal kills reg warrior and captures settler. Next turn we can start the war vs Germany.
Lux tax has to go to 20%. War hapiness must be gone.

IT: reg Byzantine horse vs vet immortal: 2/4 immortal. Arbela: library->immortal.


Turn 4 (470 BC) I declare war on the Germans.

IT: Persepolis: immortal->immortal.

Turn 5 (450 BC)

Siege of Heraclea:
5/5 immortal vs 3/3 pike -> 1/5 immortal
4/4 immortal vs 3/3 spear-> 1/4 immortal. The city is razed.

I make peace with the Byzantines for Republic, Construction and Currency :) I then sell Construction to Korea for Polytheism. We get Engineering, Korea gets Feudalism.

Spain, Ottomans, Aztecs, Byzantines have Monotheism and Republic. Other tribes lack techs. We can't make deals considering the fact that we will revolt this turn.

Bonn, Germany:
4/4 Immortal vs 4/4 spear -> 2/4 Spear
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 spear -> 4/4 Immortal
5/5 Immortal vs 3/3 archer-> 2/5 Immortal, no leader
4/4 Immortal vs 3/3 archer->3/4 immortal. Bonn is razed.

Bermen, Germany (on a hill):
4/4 immortal vs 3/3 spear->1/3 spear
4/4 immortal vs 3/3 spear->1/3 spear
4/4 immortal vs 3/3 archer->4/4 immortal
4/4 immortal vs 1/3 spear->3/4 immortal
5/5 immortal vs 1/3 spear->4/5 immortal, Bremen is razed.

I decide to revolt now. We draw 5 turns of anarchy.

IT: Spain start Knights Templar!!!

Turn 6 (430 BC) Anarchy, nothing much on the war front. 3 Cities switched to markets.

IT: Ottomans finish Sun Tzu. Cascade to Knights Templar and other wonders.

Turn 7, 8, 9 (410 BC, 390, 370 BC) Anarchy.

Turn 10 (350 BC) We are a Republic now. We need to get markets and our cities have to grow over size 6. Germany wants to talk again. Spain could be our next victim.

As can be seen in the pic, razed cities are settled by the AI quickly. The former German towns are now replaced by Bolu and Septum.

We are doing good with only 4 cities producing. Just wait until we get our 5th set up in the correct place. Good job Aggie.

Is the plan still to have a never-ending war so we can keep up in the techs? They AI's are basically asking to give away their techs the way they are plopping horribly defended cities close to the borders. I know this isn't quite the way to go with a 5cc game, but I think we need to push the Ottomans either out of this game or close. Sipahi are a UU that I do not ever like facing. Later in the game, we will be paying a lot of $$$ to get AI's to help us out.

Do we really want to be in Republic?

If anyone hasn't looked at the save, we are losing 12 gpt at 0% science and sufficient lux tax that we only have to run 1 specialist. Under Monarchy our support costs would be 30 gpt.

The extra trade we get as a Republic makes the lux tax go farther, but we don't have MP. That makes it harder to merge our workers into outlying cities to minimize support costs, since MP doesn't suffer from corruption.

I think staying in Republic locks us into lone-scientist research and a late-game capture of the Great Library (i.e. when the majority of the AI are in the Industrial Age). If we have to keep our military large we won't have any money to trade for techs, and we really can't afford to have much WW (until we start to capture multiple lux, get to 6 lux and we won't have to worry much.)

And yes, given the troop positioning a war with Spain could start very quickly. Are we now locked in to trying to capture the Great Library? If we try to get it during this war, we won't get much (if anything) post-Education from it. If we want to wait I think we have to keep Pasargadae in its current spot.

You make it sound very black and white. The cities are still small and we don't have markets yet.

After a 2nd look ...

Republic looks bad now, but once we get our cities > size 10 we should be better off than if we were in a Monarchy. Provided we don't need to raise the lux tax due to loss of MP.

I'd just as soon forego waiting to capture of the Great Library, and re-locate Pasargadae now. We need the 3rd lux, especially in Republic, and I don't think we want to continue having to go to war to clear that spot.

So my initial thoughts are to make Peace with Germany. We don't need them picking who we fight and I can't see any of their units or cities. Then turn immediately to attacking Spain. I'd rather have the slaves than let them settle a city so I expect to attack on the inherited IT. Spain lacks Iron and Horses, so we could go for the G. Lib now.

Couple of questions: Are we allowed to form an Army? That was bandied about and I don't think I saw anything definitive. And what happened to that Korean city?

I agree to make peace with Germany. Unfortunately it doesn't look like we can get a tech from them. I must admit that I oversaw what happened with the Korean city!

EDIT: We will get gems in our borders soon (two turns). The wines will take longer. We might use a slave there to create a colony.

cMM1 - The (Ted)Jackson Five

350 BC (0)
Disband 3 Regular Warriors, they're not MP and it'll be much easier for us to get 30 shields than 60 gold. Turn lux slider to 0% and have a chat with the neighbors: Lizzy wants Engineering, 85 gold, and 8 gpt for Monotheism. We can't buy from the Kaiser for that little gold, so we just make peace for his 15 gold. Then make the deal with Lizzy. Then turn to Wang and obtain Feudalism + 2 workers for Mono and Engr.

Net: Below market price for two slaves and we get two techs thrown in for free. :) Theology, Monarchy, and Chivalry are widely known. We are behind by 1 required tech.

Now set the sliders back so everyone is happy. We have 155 gold and are at -14 gpt. We go broke in 11, so this will have to be cleaned up on my turns. Or I can leave the next guy holding the bag. Either way. :rolleyes:

I dial up Izzy, and let her know that if she gives us the war reparations in advance (Chivalry + her 65 gold), I'll find another target. (Re-negotiate peace) She chooses unwisely, and we get war happiness.

Elite Immortal attacks across river, killing Spear and capturing two fresh slaves. Capture loose worker in the west. I suspect we will have no more native workers by the conclusion of my turn.

Six Immortals sit two squares from Zaragoza, a seventh will be added to the stack next turn. A stack of 11 Immortals vector for the city in the fog. We should be able to attack from a mountain in 2 turns.

Have I mentioned that the Spaniards lack Horses and Iron? So they can't throw anything but Archers and Spears at us? :D

Now to MM the cities. Capital stays on Market. Arbela swaps to a Courthouse. Build that first, then all the rest gets built faster. Arbela will be happy at size 7, once the borders expand to include the Gems. Antioch swaps to Temple, but it too will be happy at size 7. I want the Temple so I can add a worker for the 7 --> 8 transition. Gordium will also be happy at size 7, and we should run two workers down there ASAP. Like the Harbor, need the Harbor.

Now we'll go broke in 10 turns. :lol:

IT - Everybody moves really fast.

330 BC (1)
Mystery city is Murcia. Size 5 on a desert, defended by regular Spears. :devil2:

Both attack stacks move into position.

Merge a worker into Persepolis. You know, I had this complicated routine figured out to maximize the shields while still growing in 4 turns. Only took 1 turn to screw myself up! The capital will be happy at size 12 with War Happiness and 20% lux. Two more worker merges coming.

Another run through the cities: We'll now go broke in 14 turns. I can confirm we are able to build 30-shield MDI's until Replacable Parts.

IT - Aztecs start Knights Templar. We get both a Palace expansion and a 2nd lux online. The Spaniards have quite a few troops heading for Murcia (all garbage) and a horribly misguided Settler pair walking towards the Tundra.

310 BC (2)
We lead with Noddy at Zaragoza ... and he dies. An anonymous Immortal wins, and promotes. Elite sent to avenge Noddy ... wins. We burn Zaragoza, netting 24 gold and 2 more slaves.

Two more workers merged into Persepolis. The city is happy and can pull 23 spt. If we can't make 30 spt we waste a lot on all units (we have nothing that costs 40 shields) until Knights. I only see 27 shields possible. Merge 2 workers into Gordium, and we now make +11 gpt. We can get back into the upgrade game, and broker techs.

We are down to 5 native workers, but have 30 slaves. :whipped: I actually have to be careful and plan where the native workers should be merged, there aren't enough to go around.

Attack on Murcia: The Spanish have Invention, we took a defensive bombard from an LB but won anyway. Win three more without loss, gaining 27 gold and 4 more involuntary workers. We'll lose an Immortal in the IT, but we hold the mountain for a slaughter on our next turn.

Check through the cities ... Arbela could use a native worker merge to get to size 7. Antioch may be able to use 1 to get to size 8. I'll save the other three to get our 5th city up to size 4 immediately.

Spend 48 gold to shave 2 turns off the Temple build in Antioch.

IT - Lose Immortal, Spanish stack runs toward our smaller stack in the west.

290 BC (3)
Gordium: Harbor --> Courthouse

Spanish settler pair step onto flat ground, and that question about Armies I posed becomes relevant.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1_Query.JPG

Are we allowed to build an Army? If we can, I'm going to form an Immortal Army, build a Settler, capture the Great Library and re-found Pasargadae in short order. If we're going to more Pasargadae, I feel we have to do it now. We can't keep starting wars just to move this one city. Eventually we'll have to fight someone we don't want to.

I'll finish my turns tomorrow morning EST in the US. If no one tells me I can't, I'm building the Army and moving out. (I'll even try to abandon Pasargadae by rushing workers to add to other cities. :p )

The Great Library would provide Monarchy, Chivalry, Invention and Theology. All we would be missing out on is Education, unless we wanted to let the Spanish off the hook and try to capture it later. Problem is, if that is the plan we should start to build Infra in Pasargadae. No use playing this one city short.

Yes, get rid of our junk city. Eventually, having only 4 cities producing will keep us from accomplishing a victory. As for the Army, I was under the impression we were allowed to have them.

You know what we could do, we could capture the G. Library. Obviously we need to have one city torn down so we can keep the city for one turn. Then when we get all of our techs, we give it back to the spanish and before we get education, we re-capture it.

EDIT: Noddy was a good warrior. He moved bravely into the Aztec territory when he knew they could kill on sight. *TEARS*

Regarding the army: CarlosMM should be able to tell us. I'm not going to blur the discussion on this point even more than I did already.

On moving the city: I agree you on this one. If you can do it, it sounds like the best thing to do is:
-disband Pasargadae
-capture Madrid and keep it for a turn
-disband or give away Madrid (easy future target for far away civ?)
-found new city

(oh wait, you suggested this too :o )

ahem, we may be able to take Madrid for one turn and NOT get Edu, right?

so we could do a DOUBLE pull on it, taking it AGAIN later on :lol:

heck, this game has gone too easy already - have fun with the army!

290 BC (3) - Cont'd
Darius forms army, now I'm in a quandry. How do I capture the Great Library when I don't even know where it is?

To stall, I use a slave to build a colony on the wines. Should be able to reduce the lux tax to 10%, but we'll see.

Earl (Warrior) fails miserably at attacking the Archer covering a Spanish settler, so I send in the 1-Immortal Army. Win, nab 2 slaves and now we can rush the Heroic Epic with the next leader. I think I'll get two more chances this round!

While attacking some of the Spanish riff-raff, this happens ...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1_VujaDe.JPG

He waits in Persepolis to rush the Epic next turn. And we now know who the 3rd member of the Army will be. :) Win two more battles and begin Operation Obstruction on the settler pairs wandering towards the now-vacant plains. The Spanish may be attempting to attack on our western flank, but we've got it covered with 7 Immortals.

Did you know you have to pay unit support on Leaders? Free-loaders.

Pasargadae swapped to settler. Lux tax reduced to 10%, we now make +22 gpt.

IT - Aztecs build Sistines. I don't really trust that Otto MDI wandering around.

270 BC (4)
Persepolis: Market --> Heroic Epic (rushed)

Scratch that, it is a lone English MDI wandering around.

Complete the Army. Now all I've got to do is find Madrid. Have Army Group West stationed on a Mountain, next turn should be an ambush of the Spanish troops.

With the Marker in Persepolis, we now make +50 gpt. Who was complaining about Republic? Four turns ago! :lol:

No changes on cities, but while we have some cash I build Embassies.

Aztecs: This is who we don't want to fight right now. They are currently at war with Korea.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1_Aztecs.JPG

England: I don't think I've ever seen an AI in Feudalism before. London also houses the Pyramids. Lizzie is at Peace, and hasn't met the Koreans yet.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1_England.JPG

IT - Miscalculated on the troop positioning and lose an Immortal to an LB. Does provide a Leaderfishing possibility. No, I'm not greedy. Barcelona completes the Knights Templar. :mad:

250 BC (5)
Persepolis: Heroic Epic --> Colosseum?
Pasargadae: Settler --> Worker
Antioch: Temple --> Pike

Trade 10 gpt to the Byz for Spices, and can't reduce the lux tax to 0%. Ehh, worth a try. I was hoping we could pawn off our spare Horses to them, but what are you gonna do?

Army vectors for where I think Madrid is. The Spanish will talk, but won't surrender Invention + their treasury of 700 gold. We'll press on.

Merge a worker into Arbela and chop a forest to speed Court construction by 2 turns.

IT - England and Spain sign MA vs. us. Not that big a deal, except for the wandering MDI. If we'd like to give the English something to do, we could ally the Byz against them.

230 BC (6)
Oh, our trade route with the Byz is now broken, even though we are neighbors. :crazyeye: They're the ones with the busted rep, and I get a Mulligan on the Spices buy.

Our Immortal kills one of the wandering MDI. There is still another in the south.

I think by mining two mountains I can get Persepolis to 30 spt at a food deficit.

Spend our cash to upgrade 1 Warrior to an Immortal, and to build an embassy with the Ottomans. Eventually we want to get the Aztecs and Ottomans fighting.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1_Ottomans.JPG

Alliances with the Ottomans would be very expensive.

IT - Win a battle.

210 BC (7)
Arbela: Court --> Temple

Spend about 10 minutes staring at the board, and just move strategically on this turn. I think we're going to have to fight some more to get our spot. Or we could found right now and give up on the Great Library.

IT - England will have settled two dinky cities in our back lines. :devil2: Thanks for the Alliance!

190 BC (8)
OK, I think the Aztecs are going to found a city on the spot where they are standing. No use trying to get the barn door closed, the cow's already out.

Troops will re-group, and if they are not part of the G. Lib force they will head back core-ward to smite the English. (We are actually pitifully defended at home.)

Kill an LB with and Elite Immortal, almost losing. Then job clean to a regular Spear on flat ground. I think I'll let it go this round and set the trap another square forward.

Then change my mind again and kill a Spear and an Archer. The G. Lib force moves out, the 14-HP army and 4 Immortals tagging along. It's going to take 6-8 turns to reach Madrid. Next leader gets to figure whether this is actually worth it.

Then I spend almost all of our cash to build an Embassy with the Byz:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/cMM1_Byz.JPG

IT - Everything went by very quickly.

170 BC (9)
Kill two Archers and two Spears without loss. The second sacrificial city has been founded by the English, and the Spanish appear to be settling a spot we've razed twice before.

I actually think that the Great Library expedition may not be necessary. If the Spaniards already have Education, we can get all the techs up to that point in peace settlements with they and the English.

Actually, since the Alliance was signed the price for peace has gotten less. Have to whack another city or two.

Persepolis can do 30 spt at -3 fpt. I'll leave the box full. :)

Pointy-stick should continue, as Invention is hella expensive.

IT - Aztecs dial us up, and want us to declare on Korea. Let's see how much he'll pay ... he won't and he won't join either of our wars. PASS! Now the Spanish and the Germans have an Alliance against us. And a bunch of AC from the English just showed up.

150 BC (10)
I fear I am leaving this in a mess. Spanish found the aforementioned city, next player can burn that to the ground (again). Aztecs found in an interesting spot, a cultural push on the Ottoman city already there. Next player can expect a boot order because we're fighting the Spanish in those tiles.

Win two battles against the Spanish. Troops continue to move back towards our core.

Final Notes:
Watch for fortified Immortals in the field. We can go at Vitoria with 3 Immortals next turn, or wait 1 turn and use 4. The Great Library task force is about 4 turns from finding Madrid. Maybe. You have up to 6 attacks on each turn, and then hopefully enough units to hold for 1 turn. Having our units teleported back to the core by donating the city to the Byz would be cool. Or you can just call the whole thing off and make Peace with Spain.

Best reason to make Peace with Spain is to get the English and their AC/Knights off our back until we can build our forces back up. The Byz can be bought in against the English, which should give us carte blanche to punish the Spaniards. Spain has had no offense in this war.

Persepolis is set for 30 spt, Pikes/Immortals/Trebs. I would lean defensive to begin, as we have some Immortals already guarding cities.

The blue circles are cities we can burn to get tech.

The red circle is 3 AC from the English. We will have 2 Pikes fortified on a Hill in a city < size 6, so these are low-probability attacks. We also have 2 Immortals in the city if the AC stop on flat ground in front of the city. [They cannot attack next turn.]

The lighter blue circle is our Army. I think we are 3 steps from Madrid, but I'm just guessing.

It's not that bad on the war front, the Germans should take a while to find us and we'll probably be out of the other two wars by the time they arrive.

Greate turnlog and progress T_McC :) I must say that I appreciate the way we are playing this one. Despite having only 5 cities we take the initiative in wars and let the AI suffer. I hope that we can continue this momentum even after the glory days of immortals. I'm confident however, because we have an awesome army walking around.

Thanks, Aggie.

We have a settler waiting in Pasargadae, I have the city building workers to merge into other cities as Happiness allows. Plan for us to lose the Wines in the next 10, one of those enemy cities will have to build a cultural building.

If we are intent to capture the Great Library, the English probably won't have anything to give us for Peace. This makes an alliance with the Byz vs. them more palatable. It might be worth it to wait for the first English city to be razed before we look for an alliance, I think that doing damage lowers the price for other civs to join you. If the Byz are on our side we shouldn't see many English troops, if any. We could easily last until the Byz made peace.

I would figure we can make peace with the Spaniards after the Great Library play. They may still have a pile of cash to give us and we should start to see WW from them, due to our long trek to reach Madrid. This may also allow us to end the German war before it really starts.

I would like to keep moving our troops back into our territory, I fear we won't have the choice of our next victim. It's just a matter of time before someone signs the Aztecs or Ottos against us. [The downfall of playing the 98-pound bully. :lol: ]

For having 10 war-filled turns, I build a whopping 2 military units on my turn. I would lean towards Pikes initially, Immortals shouldn't be our top defenders. A small handful of Trebs for our 2 front-line cities would also come in handy.

All those slaves are building roads over the mountains. Troop mobility is very important.

Speaking of troop mobility, once we get to Chivalry I think we should skew almost all builds towards Knights. Immortals are nice attackers but we just don't have much reach with them. I don't feel we need to bother with Horses for upgrade, Immortals work just fine for core defense against landings.

I am really starting to doubt this G.Library tactic. It seems like we are doing it simply because a few other SG's are going fourth. Like T_MCC said, if we keep razing cities, we are bound to get the techs anyways. I will try to go on and see what happens, but if troops start massing towards our borders I am taking a cheap spanish city, getting peace and warping back to the capital.

Foresight, although I agree with you that it is a bit lame, we are very close to capturing it now. I would certainly go for it.

Oh I will go for it for sure, but the way T_MCC is talking, we are getting a good number of troops along our borders. It is a group decision so obviously I will keep going.

My thoughts are that we are so close, we might as well try. All we can realistically lose is 2-3 Immortals. If we do capture the G. Lib we'll get 5 or so techs, some of which other folks don't have. Peace with the Spanish for cash plus whatever we can trade the techs for, means we can speed up our infrastructure push.

This has only meant a slight delay in replacing Pasargadae, but our spot is still available. It would be a slight push on two other civs, but we're going to have to fight them eventually.

These are the first units that came out of the English core. (I forgot to mention in my log that the MA broke an 8 gpt payment we had to the English. :lol: ) There were two English MDI out exploring. I killed one with an Immortal and the other suicided against a Pike on a Mountain across a river. [pimp] The Germans have to be north of the English, so I don't think we'll see a large Prussian presence anytime soon.

I don't think we want to cripple the Spanish yet (not burning anymore of their core cities besides Madrid). That would give the Aztecs more room and power, and we'd like to keep the other 7 AI fairly balanced. By the time Cavs roll around we should be able to think about bold strokes like killing off another civ.

One other thought: If you get a chance, after the courthouse completes in Gordium it might be a good idea to get two Galleys out exploring. We will probably want to buy luxuries during this game, and we'd like to know where the Harbors are.

Pre-Turn
Aztecs ask us to leave (auto) we accept.
3 AC England move north (1) of Antioch
1 New AC on Iron outside of borders
Ottos move settlers through our territory

Turn 1
Perp build Pike (fortified) > Pike
Group of workers north of Persp move north to build Mountain Roads
3 Immortals move to Viktoria (Spanish)
Red Lined Immortal fortified
Immortal vs AC = Immortal 4/4 AC retreats 1/4
Immortal vs AC = Immortal dies AC 1/4
Move Antioch Pike to Pas
Hill Pike to Antioch
2 groups of workers NW(1) NW(2) of Arbela for Mountain Roading
Army Stack moves (Madrid in distance)
Immortal from Pas vs Hill AC kill AC

Don't need the AC's capturing all of our slaves.

Turn 2
Spain has Crusaders/Longbowman heading our way
2 groups of Med infrantry closing on our northen front (stack of 4 and 3 +1 warrior)
Germans building Leo Workshop
Move recently fortified Immortal to Iron mountain to protect workers/iron
Immortal Vs AC > Immortal 2/4 AC Dead
Army Stack at Madrid Next turn attackable (fortify army so they don't attack the stack)
Spearman moved into Vitoria - Move immortals out of their borders

Turn 3

Korea demands 32 gold - we decline - war is declared upon us
Longbowman vs E. Immortal > E. Immortal 4/5 longbowman dead
Persp horse > horse
Antioch Pike > Pike
7 Med infrantry (England) outside Antioch (2 moves from being able to attack us)
Stacks of slave workers pound roads around Antioch
Wounded Immortal 2/4 kills red-lined AC > Elite now
Wounded Immortal 2/4 kills red-lined AC
Group of Longbowmen/pike move one turn from attacking stack of open land Immortals
Move open land stack south one where another stack of immortals are waiting on a mountain

THE BATTLE OF MADRID Same - turn

Madrid is size 12

Army Vs reg spear > Army 12/14 spear dead
Army Vs reg spear > Army 8/14 spear dead
Elite Immortal Vs Reg spear> E. Immortal dead Spear at 2/3
Vet Immortal vs Reg spear > Immortal dead spear 2/3
Vet Immortal vs Reg Spear > Immortal wins 3/4

Madrid remains

Turn 4
Persp Horse > Horse
7 med infrantry move away from Antioch now to Arbela
Arbela Temp > Pike
Aztec borders expand > wines lost > move immortal
Lux stays the same

THE BATTLE OF MADRID Part 2

Army Vs Spear > Army wins 4/14
Immortal vs spear > spear wins
Immortal vs spear > immortal wins
One Spearman 2/4 remains with army having one more turn...do I dare risk it on this turn?????????????????
I do dare so I disband Pas
Army vs 2/4 spearman > Army wins 1/14 Madrid is ours

Madrid gives 250 gold/G. Wall/G. Library

The creepy spanish lady wants peace for peace. She has 2000+ gold in the bank so I give her peace for 680 gold.

England wants peace for 140 gold. Nah, the war with them can continue.
Because of disbanding, we have lost our iron. We will have to wait until next turn until we can put a colony on it because ottoman (NUMBER 1 ON MAP) has a settler/warrior on the iron.

Now the question is what do we do. When I go to the next turn and we get our techs, the ottomans will be plopping down a city by our iron. What should I do?

Also, do I give Madrid back to the spaniards next turn or bulldoze it? I don't like knowing they will be getting G.wall back.

1 = ottoman settler/warrior
2 = 4 med infrantry + 1 warrior (england)
3 = 3 med infrantry
4 = where our settler is (I should have left him on the bulldozed city tile)
5 = where we might want to build a city even though it isn't the best place, but atleast ottos won't take it.

Give madrid to someone far away, so it's 90% corrupt. Preferably someone that isn't too far behind in tech :)

Umm Madrid has the G.wall as well, though. Having another civ getting free walls in all of their cities may not be a good idea.

Well this turned into a colossal mess. Tamuin's borders expanded over the spot I wanted, and the Ottos had settlers running in circles long enough to put is in a real pinch. Without a war any city we found will have to be moved again, we can't get 21 tiles (even 12 is a stretch). Now that I'm thinking about it, I should have just founded the city last turn, and we could have built a settler from it, disbanded and re-founded on the spot.

Can we block all the roads off of the Mountain? The Ottomans obviously can't found on a mountain, and if they step into our territory they are declaring war by settling. They won't settle on the forest with the spear on it, that's too close to the Aztec city. Square #5 is lousy, but probably the best we can do. I think this square particularly has to be blocked, because I think the Ottos would settle on it next turn.

Are we ready for a war with the Ottomans? I think our preference should be to go to war against the Aztecs, with the Ottomans as allies.

If we wanted to be out of the English or German war we can probably sell them tech at a discount to be done with them. Doesn't sound like they are posing much of a threat yet, certainly not enough to chase alliances against them.

As for the Great Library, if we get Education definitely abandon it. If not, we could donate the city to the Byzantines. We aren't going to war with them anytime soon, and we get a free teleportation of our army back to Persepolis. I would probably be inclined to burn it down regardless, we'll have gotten almost full benefit out of it and we don't need to try the Great Library elevator trick.

Turn 5

G. Library gives us Theology///Chivalry///Printing Press///Education///Gun Powder

No one ahead of us in techs.
13 horsemen outside of Madrid
Spanish won't give us cash to have it back so I bulldoze it.
Persp Horse > Cathedral
Horse Vs MDI (england) Horse Retreats MDI = 1/3
Horse Vs MDI = Horse dead MDI = 2/3
E. Immortal 3/5 vs MDI = E. Immortal 3/5
Move one Antioch pikeman to mountain so the next turn we won't lose our slaves
Army + one immortal from Madrid I move into Spanish territory trying to avoid the 13 horses
Saltpete pops outside of Persp borders

T