Time to get back into the SG fold :)

Map: standard sized, pangaea, 80% water, random conditions.
Civilization: Japan.
Difficulty: Deity.
Opponents: 7 random. Raging barbarians. Maximum AI aggression.
Rules: default, culture-linked start and respawn are off. Special conditions see below.
Victory conditions: all enabled. See below.

Tokugawa is an unsettled leader. Not mentally. Just physically. He has grandiose plans to rule the world. But his people are unwilling to go anywhere. Why would they want to leave the glorious Japanese capital for dirty far-flung lands? Especially when such lands are inhabited by disgusting barbarians and neighbours who are little better, spending eons fighting and killing each other? No, far better to enjoy the home comforts they have, and leave the destructive world to itself. Unfortunately, this does make Tokugawa's desire to rule the world rather difficult to achieve...

Variant: we are not allowed to train any settlers from any city. Thus this game starts as a deity OCC. Settlers gained from huts (very slim chance) are acceptable. Otherwise, the only ways to expand are through conquering and keeping AI cities, or culture flips.

To reflect this handicap different victory types have greater achievement value.

Gold Medal: conquest, domination, 100k culture
Silver medal: space race, 20k culture
Bronze medal: diplomatic, histographic

It is up to us which victory to pursue. For maximum achievement we go for a victory type that is extremely difficult to achieve without training settlers, ie, conquest, domination or 100k culture.

Sub-variants:
i) we are not allowed to build any bombers.
ii) we are not allowed to purchase any AI workers, ever. They can be captured, but not purchased.

Etiquette: a flexible 24/48 hours for got it/play. The standard exploits are forbidden. I'm sure everyone knows the score, if not, just ask.

Japan has been chosen because the initial aim will be a military victory (hence militaristic) but cheap culture will be very important since we have to somehow keep AI cities (religious). Plus they suit the theme quite well.

Maximum of 6 players. Players should be deity-competent. We will need a lot of discussion about early tactics, since this will play much different to a normal game. Do we go for an ancient wonder? Do we go on the war-path immediately? Do we try for culture flips? How will the map and opponent conditions affect the game? There will surely be a lot of early demands and wars...

Signed up:

Nad
Greebley
Ted Jackson
Sir Bugsy
Yom
gozpel
Aggie

I've always wanted to try this variant.

I will play even though my SG allotment is fairly full. I think some games will end before we get to the really intense turns in this one.

Let me get this straight... you're effectively proposing an 1CC, AWD game but if we manage to survive to Chivalry then we can start capturing cities ? :D

Put me down for some of that please.


Ted

I don't see any AW part anywhere. That would make it difficult indeed.

I think an OCC AWD would be called suicide.

I'm in a similar boat as Greebley. I'm in several SGs, but hopefully some will end before this gets to the tough stuff. Nad, if you'll have me, I'll sign on.

I'll join too :D.

@Greebley: It will start off *effectively* as a deity OCC AWD. That is, we'll have to go to war very early to have a chance of winning. Did someone say...archer rush? (or swordsman, if we're that lucky)

Our advantages over an AWD is that we have only 1 opponent, can choose when to start the war, and can trade. Powerful advantages!

I was thinking we might want to start the game like an OCC. Go for colossus; research Philosophy and hope to pick up Lit; go for the GLib. Then we build Giant Death Robots and take over the world.

Count me in and stuff the medals, it will be cool enough to just survive :)

I can only play the 2 coming weekends due to work commitments, after that I'm free to whatever.

As for discussions, we need a bit more info than provided.

At least I understand we can't wage war immediately, that is suicide.

Instead of early settler a couple of worker quickly to improve all possible good tiles and then join all to the city, or being devious let them road to future "prospects". Don't forget the colonies, even if the AI will take them fairly early, it's still worth it to get them as early as possible.

Nad, if you shuffle the roster I might get my turns this weekend, or else I have to wait til next weekend. Of course, depends if you even start it this early :) If you're late put me down last or something.


EDIT: Or maybe you even let me start again? I know how you hate those boring early turns :cool:

Well, this filled up a bit quicker than expected. I was intending to reserve a place for Aggie, who has played in all my SGs, if he wanted it...I'll still keep a potential 7th place in the roster for him :). So Aggie, if you want it, it's yours...

ROSTER:

Nad
gozpel (so you can play this weekend)
Greebley
Ted Jackson
Sir Bugsy
Yom
[reserved]

Just to clarify, it is NOT always war, although with raging barbs and 7 deity opponents at max aggression, it might feel like it ;).

With regards to the start I can see two main routes to head down:

1) (Very) early war: barracks and lots of units early.
2) Builder start/aim for a wonder (one of Colossus/Pyramids/Great Library).

They both have pro's and con's. Going to war very early will give us more cities sooner and exponentially multiply our power and resources for the rest of the game. However, we can't raze and replace anything (no settlers) and we have to take AI cities wherever they place them...so we'd want cities that were at least size 2 or had culture to avoid auto-razes, but in war the AIs will often whip like crazy, so we may end up with little/no gains.

Going for a builder start will give us a nicer capital and a big bonus if we get a wonder, but it will then be harder to capture AI cities, since they will have had more time to fortify/defend them and hook up resources.

What other options do we have? What should our aims be? Are we definitely going for a military victory, is there any chance of 100k culture?!

I agree with gozpel in that a couple of extra early workers will be very useful. I also think lots of exploration units should be sent out, and we might even pop some huts in case we draw a settler :).

Sorry if my "tongue in cheek" comment didn't come across very well,

I read Nad's 1st post and had this vision of a little old Japanese Spearman rushing from wall to wall of his village, throwing anything to hand at a queue of Swords, Horses & Archers stretching off into the distance :)

As we're playing on a Pangaea, I would think that our priority would be to get some scouting Warriors out to make contacts & Workers to improve our workable tiles ASAP. Once we know a little more about our surroundings & immediate neighbours we can decide on "Whole Game" strategy.


Ted

I like to be in. I always like to be in a Nad-SG :)

Welcome Aggie :)

ROSTER

Nad
gozpel
Greebley
Ted Jackson
Sir Bugsy
Yom
Aggie

I will start tonight.

I think it would be an error to plan a long term strategy without at least knowing what our immediate surroundings look like. If we have a lousy start, we may be forced into an early military campaign. If we have a shield-rich start, an early builder strategy may be perfect. I think we need to see the start and surrounding terrain and plan from there.

I think it is worth thinking about what the options are. We just don't want to commit to a given course of action yet however.

I do think the early worker is a good idea. I might still go for a granary first though if we don't have any bonus to our food.

I think 2-3 warriors for exploration is worthwhile. 2 warriors and 2 workers have no unit costs. Is it worthwhile to spend 1 gpt for a third? It probably depends on the map and our location.

The first start we got (naturally):

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/TokuUnsettledStartPic.jpg

I like what I see! River, coast, couple of bgs and horses! That's a big bonus.

There's also some sort of resource peeking in the fog which the white arrow is pointing to. I can't tell for sure what it is, except it seems to be whitish...could be cattle :goodjob:

Moving the settler northwest would seem the natural move. What do you think team?

Will start playing in a bit.

This is the start of the game, in case anyone wants to examine more closely or if we have lurkers who wish to shadow the game:

BTW, this is a theme that's been done before, but I hadn't written it up. I called it "One Built City" (OBC), because that was what ToddMarshall called it, back when he was doing his. It's now in my "Variants" list, along with the no treasury Nad-idea....

Good luck and have fun with it!
Arathorn

Moving the worker north is also a natural move. After that you can decide where to move the settler. Good start :thumbsup:

Nice start :)

I'd agree with Settler NW (regardless of what's under the fog).


Ted

I was going to say the same as aggie. Move the worker north and then probably move the Settler NW based on the info.

With that start, going for the Colossus and/or the Pyramids are well within our grasp. Obviously we'd need to research the right tech, but if there's a cow we could have enough food and enough shields to get both with a reasonable timeframe. That would certainly help in keeping our captured cities.

We also could rapidly build a military force for a very early strike force. Maybe a combination of the two.

Normally I'd agree with Aggie & Greebley and say move the Worker first... and this is no exception.

Just put it down to free radicals in the water or something :blush:


Ted

4000BC: the worker move first is acceptable. I was thinking of saving a turn and keeping the worker on the starting tile, but one worker turn in exchange for information which could prove crucial is a good trade, so worker moves north. The resource in the fog turns out to be wheat. A fish and two more bonus grasslands are revealed. Initial instincts confirmed, settler moves northwest.

Turn 1, 3950BC: Kyoto founded, starts warrior. Debate whether to move worker again and improve wheat first, but decide to stay on bonus grassland by river, start mine. Citizen works bonus grassland.

With no settlers to be trained, I see no immediate need for pottery. The only other tech that might be worth researching is alphabet. At 100% science that is still 50 turns, though that would undoubtedly be reduced with even a couple of exta beakers. Difficult to call, but with 80% water neighbours should be fairly close and I intend to broker rather than research, so my judgement call is to turn research off completely for now.

Turn 6, 3700BC: first warrior completes and heads east. Start a second.
Turn 7, 3650BC: worker completes mine, starts road.
Turn 8, 3600BC: citizen changes to working wheat for growth one turn sooner/same completion time for warrior (due to shield pickup on growth).
Exploring warrior discovers wines very close to our capital.
Turn 9, 3550BC: exploring warrior moves to mountain, sees goody hut, another horse tile, and a pale blue border.
Turn 10, 3500: Kyoto size 2 and warrior complete. Start worker. Existing worker moves to wheat. First warior moves to a position to contact blue border next turn and be adjacent to the goody hut for a pop. Second warrior heads north. Micromanage to bonus grass again instead of wheat for 2nd citizen. Lux to 10%.
Turn 11, 3450BC: borders expanded. We contact Spain, who lacks the wheel but is up alphabet, pottery, bronze working and warrior code, and already has a second city. Wheel for alphabet is only doubtful, so hold trade until more contacts can be made. First warrior pops hut...a settler would be priceless, and you never know your luck, right? Ugh. You do on deity...barbs.
Worker begins wheat irrigation, second warrior comes across gems in the jungle. Micromanage to wheat again.

IT: one of the barb warriors moves, the second attacks someone in the fog, presumably a Spanish warrior. The third barb attacks our warrior we are redlined but win and promote.

Turn 12, 3400BC: tempting though it is to see who the barb warrior attacked in the fog, if we were to do that it would leave our 2HP warrior in range of the final barb, and that's a risk I don't want to take...move away to heal.

IT: the mysterious combatant in the fog attacks and kills the barb warrior on the mountain...the warrior is a darker shade of blue, not the Spanish!

Turn 13, 3350BC: worker complete, moves to bg, start another warrior. We have contact with the Hittites, who are up alphabet and pottery and have a second city. We are now in a better position to trade. Spain will not give anything more than pottery for the wheel. Trade with Hittites instead, selling the wheel for alphabet, pottery + 10g. Stat min research on writing, lux to 0%.

IT: see a Spanish warrior and another warrior in yet another shade of blue!

Turn 14, 3300BC: second worker starts mine. The new blue is China, up masonry, warrior code and bronze working, but lacking alphabet, the wheel and pottery. The Hittites have picked up bronze and warrior code, probably from Spain for the wheel. Another great trading opportunity...alphabet and the wheel to China for masonry, bronze working, warrior code + 10g.

Turn 15, 3250BC: wheat irrigated, start road. Micromanage to wheat for growth without waste.
Turn 17, 3150BC: Kyoto size 2 again, warrior completes. Start spear for defence. See some more Hittite warriors and another horse resource. Lux to 10%.
Turn 18, 3100BC: Spain has already founded Seville right next to us, claiming wines :). My instincts are pushing for early war.
Wheat roaded, worker moves to bg. There is a Chinese warrior right next to our border, so 3rd warrior moves back to Kyoto just in case. Lux to 0%. Spain has 90g and will contact China next turn, so take the opportunity to sell masonry to them for 90g.
Turn 19, 3050BC: worker begins to mine bg, warrior heads south, lux to 10%.
Turn 20, 3000BC: 2nd worker completes mine, starts road.

IT: Spanish start Colossus. Largest nations list is as follows: Byzantium China, Iroquois, Babylon, Spain, Hittites, Zulu, Japan.

Turn 22, 2900BC: warrior exploring south sees yellow border. Kyoto is size 3, 20% lux. China has dyes hooked, Spain has ivory hooked ( :eek: )
Turn 23, 2850BC: spear completes and fortifies, start barracks, can be changed after team discusson. Worker moves to horse tile, lux to 10%.
Contact the Zulu, who are equal with us in tech. The Soanish are now tech leaders with mysticism.
Turn 24, 2800BC: 2nd worker begins to hook up horses.
Turn 25, 2750BC: 1st worker begins to road bg. One of our warriors stumbles across a barb in the jungle. Hittites already have horses hooked.

Summary: it's packed! That suits us quite well. My instinct is for immediate war preparations for a horseman rush. If we can grab some cities we will have beautiful terrain and lots of resources, a great powerbase.

I played 25 to start. 15 turns each for the rest of the first round. 10 turns each from the second round onwards. If gozpel can only play at the weekend, then Greebley is welcome to take the game next, if he can play before the weekend and wants to.

I think we could use a team discussion already. Should we head for the warpath or settle in for a wonder?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/TokuUnsettled2750BCmap.jpg

Hmmm, we are going to miss the Colossus, which is a shame. I don't see why we should build the Pyramids ourselves. Besides the obvious denial reason. I don't mind a war path :hammer:

The reason to go for the Pyramids, apart from denial, is that all the cities we captured would then grow twice as fast, and that is a big advanateg. But you're right...I would rather have 20 archers than the Pyramids :).

As long as we also build horsemen we agree :)

I would vote for preparing for war.

I think the risk of losing the shields spent on a Wonder is too high with 3 AI in close proximity.


Ted

I also cast my vote for war. I agree with Aggie that fast movers will be critical. Otherwise we'll lose our opportunity for a city like Seville if we use slugs. AI love the whip.

I vote war as well. It seems the obvious choice given the number of civs near us.

I am pretty sure I can play this by tomorrow at the latest, so I got it. I guess the highest priorty tech is HBR. I didn't see it listed in the techs we have gotten.

We don't have HBR yet, but we do have the required techs for it.

We could build chariots and upgrade. I'm not a fan of fighting with the chariots, just upgrading them. That would of course require us to have a barracks.

We could build chariots and upgrade. I'm not a fan of fighting with the chariots, just upgrading them. That would of course require us to have a barracks.Good Plan. The screenshot indicates a Barracks due in 2 turns.


Ted

Preturn: Things look in good order.

IBT:

2710 BC:

IBT: Connect Horses.
Barracks->Spear

2670 BC: Up Lux for growth.

Diplo: Trade Masonry for 25 gold to the Hittites. Everyone else has it and I think this will be the best opportunity (they may spend the 25 gold which is almost certainly barb camp money). Spain is up Myst.

I am going for a spear first as I think we want more than 1 spear when we attack and it could save us a chariot (My other choice) upgrade cost.

2630 BC:
Diplo: No change.

2590 BC: Find Zulu Capitol.
Diplo: -

IBT: Spear->Chariot

2550 BC:
Diplo: 3 civs now have iron working. The last civ is Zulu who are tied with us in Tech. I think I will wait for HBR. I might be able to get a 2-fer, but it would leave us unable to get HBR when it comes up.

2510 BC:
Diplo: -

2470 BC: Up Lux to 20% due to size 5.
Diplo: -

IBT: Chariot->Granary

2430 BC: Find Beijing. I am going for a granary as I don't want too many Mil units too early and the granary will pay for itself by lowering the time to grow from from size 7-12 in half. Chariot will do some exploring South.
Diplo: -

2390 BC:
Diplo: -

IBT: Good Grief! The hittites place a town so close to our capitol that the square one worker was improving is in the new city radius. A plus is that we can go from inside our territory to capturing the town when it grows to size 2. The hittites are definitely crowding us.

2350 BC:
Diplo: Spanish have a Monopoly on Mathematics. We can't afford it.

2310 BC:
Diplo: -

2270 BC:
Diplo: China has gotten Myst and Iron Working (Only IW before)

IBT: We are punted from Hittite lands.
Zulu finish Colossus

2230 BC:
Diplo: Zulu have writing this turn. Everything but HBR. Grr! I don't want to trade as I woul be broke afterward and we couldn't get another tech for several turns.

2190 BC:
Diplo: Aha! There is HBR. 2 civs have it. Trade 233 gold for it to the Hittites.
Trade HBR, 2 gpt and 53 gold for Iron working to the Zulu so we know where iron is and who has it.
Trade HBR for Mysticism and 4 gold to China.

We are behind Writing to the Zulu and Spanish and Mathematics to the Hittites and Spanish.

We are still making 3 gpt and have 20 gold.

Seville will be a target. It has Iron AND wines.

IBT: Granary->Horseman
Kicked out by the Hittites. The Brutes!

2150 BC:
Diplo: Now all civs have writing and mathematics over us excepting only China.

Notes:
We can make Horsemen now so all we have to do is build up a force. Not sure the Granary was wise, but I think it will help us get more shields in the long run. I was also afraid I would need to spend all my money and we would be stuck with chariots. Which is true at least for the moment.

Seville, Aleppo, and Chengdu are the top targets. All owned by different civs of course :rolleyes:

When I went to make this screen shot, I noticed two new cities of another color that I don't think we know. We will want to go and meet them. They may be a turn or two old. Can't be much older.

The situation is almost ideal for our variant. :)

Got it

I'll have a look at lunchtime :)


Ted

rather rude of the Hittites to found Aleppo so aggressively.

Nice going. Spain as first target? Seville is perfect for our 2nd city. If we can, we'd love to get Madrid as well and leave the Spanish hamstrung.

What we don't want is for Seville to be auto-razed. So either we want lots of horses outside the city, wait until it reaches size 2, declare and capture on turn 1. Or we want to see a border expansion, which shouldn't be too far away, since Spain is religious.

Ted Jackson...has "got it"
gozpel....on deck, for the weekend.

rather rude of the Hittites to found Aleppo so aggressively.Must be a resource there for later...


What we don't want is for Seville to be auto-razed. So either we want lots of horses outside the city, wait until it reaches size 2, declare and capture on turn 1. Or we want to see a border expansion, which shouldn't be too far away, since Spain is religious. Errm.. The screenshot shows Seville at pop 3 :)


Ted

Errm.. The screenshot shows Seville at pop 3 :)

Ted

Which means almost certainly that it's about to pop a settler ;)

I've had a quick peek at the save and it's looking good :thumbsup:

I haven't projected the moves yet but it looks as if I'll be mucking out the stables for most of my turns :)

I'd pick Seville (Wines & Iron after expansion) as our first target. Ignore Aleppo (or pop a Temple and pray :D ) until Seville is secure (building Walls, Barracks, Temple).

I'd be tempted to slip a Curragh into the build queue at Kyoto (after capturing Seville) to explore the Northern coastline. I know it won't payback for a while but it will give us a chance to meet some of the more distant AI.

Our biggest problem is the economy (until we have a few more cities). We'll have to be careful with the number of units we build.

I would want 4 or 5 Horses & a Spear before striking so war will come towards the end of my turns.

When I went to make this screen shot, I noticed two new cities of another color that I don't think we know. We will want to go and meet them. Do you mean the two cities south of Ulundi? I'm pretty certain they're Hittite from the border colour & position. We have a Warrior in the area so I'll send him to make sure.

I won't be starting for 4 or 5 hours so feel free to chip in with suggestions.


Ted

I think Greebley meant the Byzantine cities....you can see Nicaea in the screenshot

Does anyone know the Hittites' build tendencies? If they're culture hogs we're better off just capturing Alleppo. If they're like the Romans, we build one temple and we'll have a flip within the next 50 turns.

Ya, I did mean the Byzantines. At the time I was trying to remember if Nicea was a Byzantium city. Thinking on it after posting I was pretty sure it was. A fifth civ will help us with tech costs. I wonder if we will find more civs.

The Hittites seem most pressed for room. I don't think they will become a major power. A temple would be good to slip in - we will want more culture than we have this game.

Nad-OBC 2150BC

Pre-flight checks... OK :thumbsup:
I change Prefs: Color Disc ON, Civil Disorder ON, Color Blind ON, Animate Enemy Moves ON

IBT
Hittites complain about trespassers
China complains about trespassers
Iroquois Warrior appears in the East

1 - 2110BC
Seville down to pop 1 - good call Nad :)
Contact Iroquois (annoyed) - they don't have Horses :) - tech parity - 39gp - 9 cities
Forest East of Kyoto cleared, revealing BG
Worker starts road
Chariot clears fog then heads back North
Warriors scout

IBT
Our first Horseman is reared (sic) - start another
China starts Pyramids

2 - 2070BC
Kyoto grows to pop 7
Lux 30% (costs 5gpt)
MM Kyoto for 10spt & break even Economy by working Fish
Change my mind and hire taxman :)
Lux 20% (cost 3gpt)
Kyoto 10spt & economy +3gpt
Horse fort Kyoto
Chariot heads North
Warriors scout

IBT
NTR

3 - 2030BC
Chariot gets blocked by Hittite Warriors
Warriors scout - Iroquois borders seen to the East

IBT
Forest chop completes
Kyoto Horse - Horse

4 - 1990BC
Horse fort Kyoto
Worker chop - road
Worker road - road SE
Chariot still heading for Nicaea
Warriors scout

IBT
NTR

5 - 1950BC
Chariot arrives at Byzantine borders
Warriors scout

IBT
Hittites demand 20gp - I cave, but there will be retribution!
China starts Oracle

6 - 1910BC
The two red bordered cities belong to Byzantium & Babylon
Byzantium (annoyed) - down HBR - 10gp - 4 cities
Babylon - no Horses - up Writing - 0gp - 5 cities
Sell HBR to Byzantium for 10gp - we need the money :(
Still cannot afford Writing
Chariot heads for Kyoto (upgrade)
Warriors scout

IBT
Kyoto Horse - Horse

7 - 1870BC
Horse fort Kyoto
Worker road - E
Chariot heads for Kyoto
Warriors scout

IBT
NTR

8 - 1830BC
Worker chop
Worker road - SW (join chop next turn)
Chariot heads for Kyoto
Still can't afford Writing (or Maths)

IBT
Hittites start Oracle

9 - 1790BC
Worker joins chop
Warriors scout
Disband Northern Warrior - no way we'll get him back home

IBT
Damn! Spain demands 20gp - I have to give in. It's just 2 or 3 turns too early. She'll pay for this :mad:
Kyoto Horse - Horse

10 - 1750BC
Bugger! I can't afford to upgrade the Chariot
I decide to wait until the next Horse is ready before making a move as Seville is still pop 1
Warriors scout

IBT
Forest chop complete

11 - 1725BC
Warrior pillages road linking Hittite Silks to Capital :)
Worker chop - road
Worker chop - N
Warrior scouts

IBT
Hittite Settler (& Spear escort) arrive on our Horses :eek:
Kyoto Horse - Horse (just in case)
Iroquois start Oracle
Salamanca (Iroquois) completes Pyramids
Spain cascades to Oracle
Spain starts SoZ
Madrid (Spain) completes Oracle
Zulu cascade to Great Lighthouse

12 - 1700BC
Move our 5 vet Horses to East Kyoto, ready to swoop on Seville as soon as it grows or expands
Warriors scout

IBT
Hittite Settler & escort continue North

13 - 1675BC
Warrior pillages 2nd stretch of Hittite Silks road
Warrior scouts
Zulu & Spain are up Polytheism
Seville still pop 1

IBT
Hittite Settler & escort move East (probably heading for that unclaimed Wine)

14 - 1650BC
Worker road - N, mine
Warriors Scout
Seville still pop 1

IBT
Kyoto Horse - Temple

15 - 1625BC
Horse E & fort
Southern Warrior stays on hill ready to cut Silks road again

Notes
We have 6 Horses ready to strike next turn but Seville needs to grow or else we need to switch Kyoto's Temple build to a Settler and raze Seville, settling directly on top of the Southern Wines. :joke:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Nad-OBC-1625BC-Core.jpg

The Hittite Settler looks as if he's going for the Northern Wines

The Warrior in the South is poised to cut the Silks road again next turn.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Nad-OBC-1625BC-South.jpg

We've just gone into negative income this turn so we need to make a move soon.

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Nad-OBC1625BC.zip)


Ted

We definitely look ready to pounce. That city had better grow :)

No raze and replace of course. We must wait.

I've got it. I will wait until Seville grows declare and pounce. Shall I continue on to Madrid? I'm thinking "yes." Expect dispatches within the hour.

Sorry,

I missed the smiley on the Settler joke :blush:

@Bugsy: yep, we must try to press on.


Ted

great play Ted. It's annoying when the AI doesn't co-operate. We must be patient though...Seville will be worth the wait.

Sir Bugsy has indicated a willingness to play soon, so gozpel can be "on deck" again, to play as soon as he is able.

Sir Bugsy...UP NOW
gozpel...ON DECK
Yom
Aggie
Nad
Greebley
Ted Jackson

Pushing onto Madrid would be really nice, but I'm not sure if it'll b a realistic possibility...these are deity AIs after all. However, if we can keep cranking 3 turn horses from Madrid, it might be possible. Good luck, and just play the war by ear :goodjob:

I too think pressing on is a good idea. Owning several towns will help.

Ted, I am glad you got the Temple [Edit: nearly ] up and running. Being far behind in culture would make this game a lot harder. I really debated building it on my turns, but the Granary won.

We should definitely use the "build a temple 10 turns and rush" in this game as our first build in most towns, IMHO. It makes a good first build and reduces flips. The exception is when something specific that needs to be built fast.

Pre-flight – 1625 BC – Warrior on silk road is not moved. I imagine the Hittites will be moving to reconnect it.

Diplo check – We have contact will all seven civs. Everyone is up Witing and math. Isabella and Shaka are up Polytheism. Nothing is for sale.

City check takes all of 30 seconds and of course it is in perfect order since I get to follow Ted.

Let’s hope Seville grows soon. *crosses fingers*

IBT – Zulu start Zeus. Zulu complete the Lighthouse.

1. 1600 BC – The Hittite territory has expanded to include the silk road, so no more pillaging for a while. I will stay on this hill until I’m kicked out.
Seville hasn’t grown yet. Our warrior exploring the far east finds the Great Eastern Ocean. Rumor has it that it is the same body of water as the Great Western Ocean.

Aleppo’s boarders have expanded so we won’t be getting a flip anytime soon.

Diplo world hasn’t changed. Kyoto grows next turn.

IBT – Both Mursalis and Hiawatha ask us to leave. “I get right on that.”
Shaka establishes an embassy in our capitol and Isabella blesses us with a boarder expansion at Seville. What a sweetheart! We’ll have to remember not to slit her throat. :devil2:

2. 1575 BC – Declare war on Spain.
@ Seville: Regular spears are defending.
Our first horse wins and promotes losing two hp.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Nad_-_Seville_Capture.jpg
Of course the one citizen is going to resist.
Start a barracks, but that is vetoable since it will take a while to build.
Change our cost accountant into a jester. (is there much difference in RL?)
Move our remaining horses forward. Also move our workers towards Seville.
The Hittites have a worker for sale, but with only 19G, we’ll have to get our slaves the old fashioned way… steal them.

Seville is definitely a 10 turn temple canidate. We get iron faster.

Great work so far Sir Bugsy :thumbsup:

I agree on the quick temple, if practical.

BTW, a reminder that worker purchases are completely off the table in this game...no buying workers and no bombers are subvariants.

IBT – Kyoto: temple=>horse
Resistance in Seville ends.

3. 1550 BC – Move our troops into Spanish territory leaving our wounded behind to heal and recapture any flips.
Step over onto the new silk road. Me? Pillage? :mischief:
Since we have a temple, I make the jester put his cost accountant suit back on. A nice +5gpt cash flow. The diplo world hasn’t changed.

IBT – No Spanish counter. Hiawatha kicks our dude out.

4. 1525 BC – Maneuver our four horsemen onto a hill south of Madrid. Pillage the silk road one last time.
Mapstat tells me that Isabella has a worker hiding in Madrid. The world is still pretty firm about not selling us anything.
After further consideration I change Seville over to a temple. With the boarder expansion we can get the iron. Temple is due in 13.

5. 1500 BC - @Madrid: Defended by regular spears.
Our first horse retreats after slightly wounding the spear.
Our second horse is killed after redlining the defender. The original spear is on top.
Our third horse dies after redlining the defender and our final horse is redlined before finally winning. He promote. We’ll need more forces there.

Move our now healthy elite next to Seville towards Madrid.
Upgrade the chariot for 30G.
Wake up a spear in Kyoto and send him towards Seville for garrison duty. Probably should have done that last turn.

IBT – Kyoto: horse=>horse

6. 1475 BC – Of course the defending spear is fully healed. Isabella didn’t whip the city, so she must have finally built a barracks. With a red and yellow horse, I pull back to the hill to wait for reinforcements.
Since I’ve pulled most of our MPs out, I turn our Seville citizen into an accountant and our Kyoto accountant back to a clown.

IBT – Theodora starts Zeus.

7. 1450 BC – Spear arrives in Seville, forces the accountant back into the fields.
Our dude in Iroquois land runs out of dirt to the north.
Position our forces on the hill south of Madrid for battle number two. The battle is two turns away.

IBT – Spanish warriors start popping up everywhere. One attacks our horse and the horse retreats.
Hiawatha kicks our warrior out which throws him across a bay to another peninsula.
Writing comes in.
I’m thinking philosophy, but we might have a better chance getting CoL or Literature. I’ll post after this turn and check the thread.

8. 1425 BC – A volcano erupts over in Byzantine lands. Mapstat says that Map Making is well known.
Four healthy Spanish warriors are in sight, plus the wounded one.
Move to hook up the wines outside Seville
With the number of Spanish units approaching, decide to assault the gates of Madrid now.
@ Madrid: Our vet horse attacks, is redlined, but the lone defender falls.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Nad_-_Madrid_Capture.jpg
Four resisters. One slave.
Whack the 2hp warrior with our elite horse (-2hp)
Isabella will talk to us. I can get two techs (choice of Math, Philosophy, Map Making, or Polytheism) or two cities (Murcia and Santiago) or a city and two techs. I’ll post this and get the team’s decision.

A further observation. I can probably broker for a third tech if I take Philosophy, since it isn't widely known (three civs) and Polytheism (two civs). Do we want the cities or the techs or press on. I'll have a bit of skirmishing, healing and reconsolidation of forces before moving on to the next city.

Murcia is nearby (Northwest of Madrid), but Santiago isn't even in sight. Might be hard to defend.

I'm here and can play :)

Great job overall, team!

This will probably be a few turns of defending and hoping Isabella doesn't sign any alliances. A dogpile would mean our downfall.

Way to go Sir Bugsy! :D

I'd vote for peace now with one city and techs. Getting expensive techs like map making and polytheism would be nice, and brokering would be ven better.

The ex-Spanish cities can then get cracking with temples and workers, while Kyoto can continue to pump 2 or 3-turn horses for another war in 15-20 turns, probably against Hittites or Byzantines :).

EDIT: wrt research...my conquests experience is that literature at min is a very good project :).

gozpel...good to hear from you :). You're up after Bugsy completes his 15 turns.

I missed the peace offer at the end of Bugsy's report.

I can see Murcia, where is Santiago? I say take Murcia and 2 techs.

No problems Nad, I have to get out of this real life costume and have some fun :)

It just hit me, we're getting fairly close to government change and since the AI research very quickly both Republic and Monarchy will be on the table in a few turnsets.

With the unit support cost in Republic, I suppose we have to go for Monarchy for now and switch to Republic at a later date. We are religious so that is not a problem.

Even though the unit support cost is higher in republic, I do think think that the trade bonus is usually more than enough to offset that, especially as our cities will get large quickly as we're not training settlers.

At the moment I would still favour republic...in 5 Take On The World we had a large army with few cities and republic worked very well there. I'd be more inclined towards monarchy from a war weariness point-of-view...if we stay on the warpath for a concerted period of time and very high lux rates are required, then I would consider monarchy.

We shall see when the time comes. Being religious we do have leeway and can change from one to another without too great a cost.

I'd go with the city & 2 techs option Sir Bugsy.

BTW great progress there :thumbsup:

On the Government change my feeling is that Monarchy (if available) is our better choice for the short term until we've given all the AI a bloody nose :)


Ted

Read Nad’s post about Literature and swap science over using lone scientist in Kyoto for the moment. Science slider goes to 0%.
After whacking another Spanish warrior, Isabella will now give us two cities and two techs. Maybe I missed something the first time around.
I can’t pass this one up so I take Philosophy and Polytheism plus Murcia and Santiago & 41G for peace. I like it.

Santiago is to the east. I start a warrior there just for MP duty. I also start a warrior in Murcia. Both cities are unhappy so more accountants come out of the closet.

I garrison Madrid with two horses to hopefully keep it from flipping. I move the rest of our troops back towards Kyoto for the next offensive.

Trade time: Byzantines have the most cash. Sell them Polytheism for Math & 112G.
Buy Map Making off Hammi for Poly & 13G.
Zulu are at parity, Spain also has Monarchy, which we can’t touch quite yet.
Sell the Hittites, Map Making for all their cash=>67G. Sell Poly to Mao for all their cash => 43G. That gives us 301G plus a positive cash flow of 19gpt. So our economy is healthy for a little while.

IBT – Our warrior down in Hittite land is kicked out.
Kyoto: horse=>horse
Chinese start Artemis.

9. 1400 BC – Mapstat tells me that CoL is out there. Hammi won’t sell it for Philosophy and our entire economy.

Lux comes down to 10%. Hire the entire IRS in Madrid.

IBT – Our guy gets tossed out of Iroquois lands again. The resisters in Madrid are stomped on, and the Babylonians start Artemis.
10. 1375 BC – Spain bought CoL from Babylon. Not much else.

IBT – Wines are hooked up. The Japanese celebrate with a wine tasting party.

11. 1350 BC – Start on a road north to Murcia. I looks like China might settle between Madrid and Kyoto. That would be very nice of them. Our entire economy still insults Isabella for Monarchy. Put our scientist in Kyoto back to work and force the accountant in Murcia to start looking into this literature thing.

IBT – Get tossed out of Iroquois land again. This time for drinking too much wine.
Kyoto: horse=>horse
Byzantines start the Mausoleum.
Iroquois have construction.

12. 1325 BC - Kyoto has grown. Hire a tax man again. We have seven horses in position to assault the Hittites. We can buy CoL for 397 & 1 from Hammi, but I doubt I can turn around and get Construction from Hiawatha. I will hold out and use our cash for Monarchy.

IBT – Get tossed out of Hittite land this time.

13. 1300 BC – I can get CoL now from Mao for Philo & 198G.
Two techs plus all our economy is “doubt it” from Hiawatha.

IBT – Babylon moves three Bowmen near Santiago.

14. 1275 BC – Trading still is iffy.

IBT – The three Babylonians move next to Santiago. We got a few shekels out of that city while we had it. At least Hammi won’t get anything as it will autoraze. Maybe try a loan with him.
Kyoto: horse=>horse

15. 1250 BC – There are now eight horses ready to take on the Hittites.

After Action Report: There are several things you can do before the turn ends. Hammi will take a gpt for tech deal, which may either keep him from attacking undefended Santiago or give us a free tech.
If he does attack, there is a Bab city SE of Madrid that might be worth going after. Maybe just gift him the city or abandon the city to stay out of war and keep our forces free for attacking the Hittites.

Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Nad_-_1250BC.zip

Situation:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Nad_-_1250_BC.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Nad_-_1250_BC_-_2.jpg

A nice first war for us :goodjob:

I have to say that China looks a very tempting target: Gems, Spices, Dyes & more Iron. Perhaps gift Santiago to them and when they become embroiled in war with one of the Eastern AI then strike up through Chengdu & Canton.


Ted

:goodjob: Great turns Sir Bugsy.

So, who's up? Me or Gozpel?

Very well done Sir Bugsy :).

From the screenshot it's not 100% clear if the Babs are definitely sneak attacking...they might be taking a shortcut. I think it is probably a sneak attack, but I would not abandon the city for the sake of a few gold, on the off chance they are just passing through.

AFAIK, if we were to gift the city to someone else the Bab sneak attack would be postponed rather than cancelled...I don;t know for sure what would happen.

Interesting times ahead.

gozpel...UP NOW
Yom...ON DECK

Is it correct that I don't see a sav-file in the zip?

I can't extract the file from the zip at all, but then I often have that problem with zips.

I can see the sav file. I will post it here for anyone having troubles with the ZIP.

No problem with the zip here, the save extracted & loaded fine.



Ted

Ok, I got it.

Pre-turn - All is good.

When the AI walk in with units and are considered stronger than us, they are usually up to no good. But there are Iroquois units around the area, so I will wait and see.

30% luxtax (cost 6gpt) let us use all citizens in Kyoto and horses can be built in 2 turns (15 shields/turn). I move out all horses from Kyoto.

1225bc - Zulu kick out our warrior. Babylon bowmen ignore our city and some Iro sword shows up near Santiago.

I declare on Hittites. We kill 3 spears, losing one horse and take Aleppo.

1200bc - IT - Babs and Iro's are killing each other near Santiago. :)

Kyoto horse -> horse

1175bc - IT - Hittite 3-man chariot kills a horse.

Seville temple -> barracks
Santiago warrior -> worker
Murcia warrior -> warrior

Kill a spear and the chariot and we got a leader. Build army.
Kill another spear and a warrior.

1150bc - IT - 2 Hittite warriors dies against our warrior near Zululand, a third kill him.
A warrior dies against our spear in Seville.

Kyoto horse -> horse

Load 3 horses in army and rename it Gozpel's Gnats.
Attack Tarsus with army (4/13) and kill 2 spears.
Take the city with an elite and capture 6 slaves!

Iro and Zulu are in MA.

Buy Currency from Zulu for Horses and 514g.
Currency, 8gpt and 24g to China for Construction.
Currency to Babs for CoL and 99g.

No chance at all to get Monarchy from Spain.

1125bc - Remove 3 Hittite warriors and a spear from the vicinity.

Spain is in MA as well now and traded with Zulu.

1100bc - IT - Horses defend well against Hittite archer and warrior.

Kyoto horse -> market.

Buy dyes from China for 124g.

1075bc - Kill a 3M-chariot, a spear and a warrior.

1050bc - IT - Hittites attack a 2/4 horse with a spear! and kill it.

Remove 2 spears and get another leader. Move him to Kyoto, we can't build any more armies right now. Should we hurry HE?

1025bc - Kill a spear and a warrior.

1000bc - IT - Byzantine completes SoZ.

Gozpel's Gnats attack Hattusha and kills 2 spears.
Attack with hurt elite horse* who dies against archer.
Another hurt elite takes the city.

Next player, make peace for the city of Ankuwa, we are wearing thin.

We can build another army now or hurry something, like Heroic Epic.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/nad-japan.jpg

Hey we are getting a real empire here! Great going, all of you :hammer: [dance]

That makes Yom up (where have I seen that before?)

If we make peace now and get the city, will that give us eight cities (I count 6 from the minimap which would be one short)? If so I think I would prefer doing that and using the leader for an army or the FP (if we get that at 8 cities). If not, then it depends how easy it is to get to eight cities. The herioc epic is fairly cheap for even a small wonder and is not vital. I would still rather the leader was kept for the FP or a second army.

I think we have 8 now, one (Santiago) is far east. Or we will get 8 for sure with the Hittite city we can get for peace.

Good point about the FP, I didn't even think of that. :)

Great job gozpel :) I agree that we should make peace now. That city we can get is a beuatiful one for us. We could rush the FP there.

Well done gozpel :thumbsup:

Unfortunately I think it is 10 cities for the FP on a standard map in Conquests, so I'd create another army when we have 8 cities.

Yom...UP NOW
Aggie...ON DECK

Nice job on the Hittites gozpel :thumbsup:


Ted

Nice job with the :hammer:

I think we need to turn our attention northward and add a Chinese city or three to our collection. :devil2:

Another city we would like to have is Nicaea E of Seville. Another horse can be useful for trading and since the town recently expanded it's borders....:) It would be a fairly brief war I think.

We would probably trade Nicaea for Santiago, but that isn't such a bad thing. Nicaea is a better city.

Yom, Are you going to need a swap/skip for this game as well?

(he mentioned in another thread that he was having problems running Civ).

Maybe we should temp-skip Yom until he confirms he is available and ready to play again?

So,

Aggie...UP NOW
Yom/Nad...ON DECK

I got it...

I'm sorry Nad, but I don't feel fit enough to play a difficult set of turns in a SG. Could I be skipped? :(

No problem Aggie...hope you feel better soon :coffee:

Nad...UP NOW
Greebley...ON DECK

I got it, will be playing tomorrow.

Civ 'flu? Aggie :)

Get well soon.


Ted

Nonono! Nothing to do with civ :)

I see gozpel is not kidding when he says our military is a "bit stretched".

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/TokuUnsettled1000BCMilitary.jpg

Don't have much, do we? :D Good job we can make peace. Take Ankuwa and 14g for peace. Next war will probably be against China. Looks like my job will be to build temples in captured cities and begin rebuilding some military for our war machines, Sir Bugsy and gozpel, to go play with again :) :p.

Science to 10%, lux to 20%. I keep the leader for the moment, Heroic Epic or army are not needed until we go to war again, so keep for the off-chance of getting flips/being able to build FP.

IT: Babylon building Sun Tzu.

Turn 1, 975BC: Army stays outside cities in case of flip. Hattusha hires scientist, science to 0%.

IT: Seville barracks ----------> granary. It's our 2nd city and can be a powerhouse once it grows.
Aleppo temple ---------> barracks.

Babylon building Hanging Gardens; Hittites building Artemis and Mausollos.

Turn 2, 950BC: Iroquois are the big boys in this game, but they lack horses, which is fortunate :). Decide to form an embassy with them, they have no iron either but do have Pyramids and 2 luxuries. Form an embassy with China; they have 4 luxes, horses and iron, which means riders very soon unless we intervene...

IT: 4 city Byzantines declare war on Iroquois :rolleyes:

Kyoto market ----------> horse
Santiago worker ----------> worker
Murcia warrior ----------> worker

Zulu start Sun Tzu and Hanging Gardens.

Turn 3, 925BC: Iroquois already have strong presence in area as they head towards Byzantines.

IT: China demands and gets 20g.

Turn 4, 900BC: form embassy with Spain for 30g...would rather spend the cash than have it demanded.

IT: Babylon demands horses! I refuse, they declare war.

Kyoto horse ----------> horse

China building Great Wall.

Turn 5, 875BC: that's changed plans a bit. Form another army with leader, fill with 1 horse and move to Seville to act as zone defence. Existing army moves towards Akkad.

Hattusha switches to warrior. Lux to 10%, adjust cities.

IT: Hattusha warrior ----------> worker

Zulu building Mausollos.

Turn 6, 850BC: move army to threaten Akkad next turn. Madrid horse joins second army.

Form embassy with Hittites, then sign free rop...don't want them or China to ally with Babylon.

IT: Bab bowmen near Akkad move. 2 Bab spears move into Madrid's borders.

Madrid temple ----------> worker
Kyoto horse ----------> horse
Aleppo barracks ----------> catapult

Iroquois building Great Wall. Zulu complete Artemis.

Turn7, 825BC: army attacks Akkad and kills a bowman and spear. Madrid army kills both Bab spears, promotes. Bab galley seen.

IT: FFS, Iroquois demand horses! This is an awful situation: they have a lot of troops in the area chasing Byzantium, and we would lose a couple of cities if we refuse and they declare war, which is likely given their power rating. But giving in is also nasty, because not only does it allow them to train mounties and have a perfectly timed GA, but it also risks our reputation since the route is risky while we are at war with Babylon. It's a horrible choice, but I have to give in to prevent immediate city loss.

Tarsus temple ----------> barracks

China buildng Great Wall. Iroquois complete Great Wall. Babs cascade to Hanging Gardens. Hittites complete Mausollos.

Turn 8, 800BC: kill 2 more spears in Akkad, still more Bab troops. Decide not to risk 6HP army attacking fortified spear, instead move away to heal. Third horse joins Madrid army.

IT: lots of Bab movement. 3 bowmen threaten Santiago which is probably toast unless we can make peace within 2 turns.

Hiitites and Iroquois ally against Byzantium.

Kyoto horse ----------> horse
Hattusha worker ----------> temple

Turn 9, 775BC: move warriors and worker out of Santiago to enable eacape route. Madrid army kills a Bab spear. Ankuwa whips temple. Iroquois have republic at monopoly.

I've just noticed a possibility. Santiago is probably toast, except we can ally with the Iroquois against Babylon for 26gpt and possibly save the city that way, but that would tie us into a long war. I will stop a turn early so we can debate this...is it worth it? The situation is depicted below.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/TokuUnsettledSantiagodilemma.jpg

I shouldn't have moved the warriors out of the city already until we'd discussed the plan, but unfortunately I only thought of the Iroquois possibility after I'd already moved them, so sorry about that. They can still move back to the city, but they would not be fortified by the time the Babs rached them.

What should we do team?

Greebley is up next, with 11 turns.

I've had a few beers so can't really contribute for another 8 hours or so ;)


Ted

Pros -
1. We save Santiago - probably
2. The Iroquois are pulled into a two enemy war.
3. Good chance the Iroquois GA will be spent building military units - but they are already at war.

Cons -
1. A 20 turn war.
2. May lose Santiago regardless
3. Santiago isn't really contributing much to our economy other than the unit costs

I'm thinking that we abandon the city and go it alone.

Hmm... Tough one. I think I need to look at the save to judge things like:

How strong are the Babylons? Will 20 turns hurt us?
How important is Santiago?
Do we have troops nearby to take the city back?

In general I am in favor of the AI fighting one another in a game like this. The biggest threat of the alliance may be the greater possibility of ending up in a fight we are not so happy with. Will look at the save tonight for a better opinion.

I got it. I have another game to play first so this game is probably tomorrow.

[Edit: Looking at the save I don't think we should ally. The city is disconnected from our lands so hard to defend anyway and not very important. It is not worth losing options for.]

I've sneaked a look at the save and I don't think that Santiago is worth a 20 turn war :(


Ted

If we're not going to ally, then should we abandon the city or gift it to another civ, so we can recapture it later?

Gifting it to our next opponent might be a good option :)

Although China has some tough territory they have plenty of lux & resources too :hammer:


Ted

I agree with Ted here. Santiago is always going to give us problems...

I got it in a peace deal as an unexpected bonus. I agree that it isn't worth a 20 turn war. Give it away or abandon it.

Ok, I will abandon it or give it away - unless those bowmen don't approach the town next turn.

China does seem a logical choice. Abandoning it might not be bad; some AI will waste a settler rebuilding it and it will probably exist again when we are ready to claim it.

Since we are going for Literature, I decide to switch Seville to the Heroic epic with the idea of switching to the GLib.

IBT: The bowmen are next to Santiago.

750 BC: Oops, I remembered a bit late that I could have sent those units to the capitol. I moved them away instinctively and then remembered. I gift Santiago to China.

Out of curiosity if we are a despot why did we irrigate the wine? They are like Bonus Grassland. I would rather mine now and switch them when we swith governments.

710 BC: Iroquois and Byzantine sign peace.

690 BC: One of our armies does very poorly and is driven to the red attacking a fortified spear in Akkad

670 BC: Our other army captures the town.

Zulu Declares war on the Iroquois.

650 BC: Healing. Uruk seems far, but has iron... May go for it.

Iroquois are building Sun Tzu. We lose our supply of dyes

610 BC (aprox) Hanging gardens completed by Spain.

570 BC: Dang! the Iroquois start the GLib

IBT: Zulu start GLib Too

550 BC: I capture Uruk from Babylon.

Notes:

We need to decide if we want to compete for the GLib. Seville started before the Zulu and Iroquois, but the AI gets a discount. The two are about the same. We may be able to get it if we outproduce the size 7 capitol of Zimbabwe. We may be able to do so if we merged workers. Do we want to try?

Babylon will give us Lit or Monarchy for peace They will also give us their weaker town. Do we want to continue the war to get Republic from them? We could send an army toward the red outline and go for another town and see if they will give us Republic before and after. They do have some bowmen we may need to track down with an army as we don't have full defense in towns yet.

The next player should definitely pay attention to Akkad. The city is in danger. The real problem is that our army got hurt in the town attack.

Here is a picture of Akkad and the armies. The army in the circle has 2 moves left.

Got it

I won't be able to play for about 10 hours so feel free to chip in with comments & suggestions.


Ted

I wouldn't bother with the Great Library...going for lit was purely from a trade point of view, there was never any desire to waste shields on the Great Library.

Maybe now we should decide what government we want? The consensus seemed to favour monarchy, and I'm happy to go with that too. If so then we could get that from the Babs.

The wines were irrigated as part of an irrigation path to the southern, ex-Hittite cities, IIRC, and also to provide 3 food tiles for fast growth in Seville as soon as we're out of despotism, which will likely be fairly soon.

Well the wines are mined now. I was thinking we would go for republic which would take longer and possibly want the wonder and so want the shields. I do agree they are better irrigated once we are out of despot.

If we don't want the GLib, then I would let the heroic epic complete. That will be useful for us, or switch to a Market. I have probably played too much AW where the GLib makes a game SO much easier; especially AWE and above.

Monarchy is one option. Monarchy we can get NOW; Babylon will trade it for peace. That may be the best option - Get it and revolt immediately.
After the armies heal and head back into our own lands, we can go for China. The Mongols, Spanish, Hittites, and Byzantines are all good targets for war as well so we have a lot of possibilities.

We can consider Rebublic with more frequent switching off opponents to fend off WW. The setup works well with switching. We are Religious and could decide later if we want to switch.

I've had a quick look at the save...

Monarchy for peace seems a good deal and would incline me to revolt to Monarchy ASAP (we can pick up Republic later if needed). Take a couple of turns to heal and position troops for an assault on China, then hit them hard with our Armies :)

Heroic Epic or Great Lib would both be a bonus for us so I would leave that on the back burner and concentrate on military everywhere else :hammer:

I think a Conquest/Domination victory is on the cards if we can keep up the pressure. The Zulu vs Iroquois squabble is playing right into our hands and, hopefully, will keep the Iroquois from becoming a real problem until it's too late to matter.


Ted

We seem to be in agreement Ted :D

I also think that Conquest or Domination are very doable and your plan to go mostly for military is sound - one other exception would be to rush the temple in Akkad - we do want to keep Culture high as we are keeping cities and reducing flips is a win for us. I was thinking we could rush it in 4 turns (when it has 20 shields to go). It is stuck at 2 pop now anyway...

rush the temple in Akkad - we do want to keep Culture high as we are keeping cities and reducing flips is a win for us. I was thinking we could rush it in 4 turns (when it has 20 shields to go). It is stuck at 2 pop now anyway...Hopefully, we'll be able to cash rush it from Monarchy. Good point anyway. I'll check for culture producers in all our cities before I get too carried away with reducing China to a pulp :)


Ted

I forgot we were switching to Monarchy right away. The cash is probably better used elsewhere.

It also occurred to me though that once you make peace, you can at least make the town grow as you won't get the "war with mother country" unhappiness. I would just keep it on temple, so we have more culture than Babylon in the city which will reduce flip chance by 2 or so. Might be a good idea for Uruk too.

[Edit: I see I accidentally left Uruk on the default "spear". I would definitely change that]

OK,

I'll play a couple of turns over lunch :)


Ted

RL got in the way so I've only played 5 turns :(

I'm a bit wasted now so I'll try to finish off first thing in the morning.


Ted

Spain declared on the inter-turn (half expected) so has delayed war with China.

Turn 7 (410BC) I get a GL (Fujiwara) but I can't make up my mind what to do with him; we can't build another army yet so it comes down to a choice between the Forbidden Palace & the Great Library. Normally, I wouldn't hesitate and have just built the FP but the GL would give us Feudalism, Engineering & Republic immediately.

I'll wait for the team to comment before resuming play.


Ted

A great leader? Is it a SGL or a MGL? When it's a MGL: no Great Library :( When it's a SGL: no army :( I guess you got a MGL, so the FP seems like the best choice?

If we have enough cities, I would concur with FP.

Old habits die hard it seems... Can't teach an old dog new tricks... Where did I leave my brain last night? :)

Of course it was an MGL so Forbidden Palace it is, although I'm not too sure about placement. I'll have another look and perhaps post a screenshot.


Ted

Nad-OBC 550BC

Pre-flight checks... OK :thumbsup:

Military Status
We are:
Average vs Byzantium (Monarchy)
Weak vs China (Monarchy)
Weak vs Iroquois (Republic)
Average vs Babylon (Republic)
Strong vs Spain (Monarchy)
Average vs Hittites (Despotism)
Average vs Zulu (Monarchy)

Tech Status
Byzantium (annoyed, 33gp) are up Monarchy & Feudalism
China (annoyed, 0gp) are up Monarchy
Iroquois (annoyed, 192gp) are up Literature, Republic, Monarchy & Feudalism
Babylon (furious, 6gp) are up Literature, Republic, Monarchy & Feudalism
Spain (furious, 29gp) are up Monarchy
Hittites (furious, 1gp) are up Literature
Zulu (annoyed, 1gp) are up Literature, Monarchy & Feudalism
Interestingly our Scientific rivals both got Feudalism as their free tech.

Resources
Byzantium has both Iron & Horses
China has both Iron & Horses
Iroquois has Iron but no Horses
Babylon has Iron but no Horses
Spain has both Iron & Horses
Hittites have neither Iron nor Horses
Zulu has Iron but no Horses

I still think China is our best target. We could roll over the Hittites easily but they only have Silks (Harran) on offer. It might be worth picking them off after China.

0 - 550BC
Sell peace to Babylon for Literature, Monarchy + 8gpt
Research Monotheism @ Lone Scientist (Heading for Samurai)
Nobody is willing to trade either Republic or Feudalism
Hattusha switches from Market to Barracks
Uruk switches from Spear to Temple
Revolution
Kyoto hires 3 clowns

IBT
Lots of troops movements
We get the Forbidden Palace message
Resistance in Uruk ends

1 - 530BC
Armies set to heal

IBT

Enter Monarchy
China starts Great Lib

2 - 510BC
Iroquois, Babylon & Zulu know Engineering
Armies had back toward Kyoto
MM Kyoto for 15spt + Scientist
MM Tarsus for Spear at EOT
Lux 20% (Kyoto)
Can't find a lever to trade Feudalism

IBT
Kyoto Sword - Sword
Tarsus Spear - Sword
Byzantium starts Sun Tzu
Hittites start Great Lib

3 - 490BC
Armies continue toward Kyoto
Akkad hurries Temple for 92gp

IBT
Zulu demands Horses - I give in (it will make life harder for the Iroquois)
Madrid Barracks - Horse
Akkad Temple - Warrior
Babylon starts Great Lib

4 - 470BC
Armies continue toward Kyoto
Workers work
Lux 10%

IBT
Iroquois & Zulu exchange blows Northwest from Uruk
Spain moves 3 small stacks close to Akkad
Kyoto Sword - Sword
Ankuwa Barracks - Horse

5 - 450BC
Armies arrive at Kyoto
Workers work
Akkad hurries Walls
Sign RoP with Spain (just in case)

IBT
Spain declares war on us :eek:
Akkad fends off Warrior
Spain captures Slave (NE Akkad)
Akkad Walls - Spear

6 - 430BC
Well, that's thrown a spanner in the works :(

China will have to wait and may therefore have Feudalism & Pikes before we are able to tackle her.
Akkad short rushes Spear
Elite Horse kills Spear (NW Akkad)
Armies head for Madrid & Akkad

IBT
Iroq & Zulu at it hammer & tongs
Spain captures Slave (NW Uruk) :smoke:
Kyoto Sword - Horse
Hattusha Barracks - Spear
Akkad Spear - Sword

7 - 410BC
Elite Horse kills reg Warrior (N Akkad) & produces GL (Fujiwara)
Akkad switches to FP
Fujiwara hurries FP
Uruk hurries Walls
Army & 2 Horse arrive at Madrid

IBT
Spanish Warrior attacks Akkad even though an Army is in residence. He dies
Warrior (Uruk) fends off Warrior & promotes to Vet
Zulu & Iroquois sign Peace Treaty :(
Aleppo Sword - Spear
Akkad FP - Sword
Uruk Walls - Temple
Murcia Worker - Barracks

8 - 390BC
Elite Horse (Akkad) kills Spear
Army & 3 Horse arrive W Barcelona
Akkad hurries Catapult

IBT
Army (Akkad) fends off 3 Warriors
Lots of Iroquois heading our way :(
Kyoto Horse - Horse
Akkad Cat - Sword

9 - 370BC
Cat (Akkad) knocks 1hp off Spanish vet Warrior
Elite Horse (Akkad) kills Warrior
Army kills reg Pike (Barcelona)
Army kills reg Pike (Barcelona)
Vet Horse kills reg Pike (Barcelona)
Vet Horse kills reg Pike (Barcelona)
Elite Horse kills reg Pike (Barcelona)
Army kills reg Pike (Barcelona) and captures city (Hanging Gardens, 3 resistors) - that was nail-biting :eek:
Spain won't talk and I don't really want to get involved in an MA at this point:(

IBT
Army (Barcelona) is killed by MDI
Lots of Iroquois around Akkad :eek:
Tarsus Sword - Sword
Quell 2 resistors at Barcelona

10 - 350BC
Spain will now talk but we can't get Feudalism and she has nothing else to offer :(
I'll end my turns here, with all movement points, to allow the next player maximum flexibility.

War Zone
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/NadOBC-350BC-conflict.jpg

Notes
Well, we ended up in a war we didn't want instead of the war we did.

I'm very worried about the Iroquois troops around Akkad. They might be just passing through but I somehow doubt it.

The Spanish had no hesitation in attacking our Horse Army at Akkad with plain old Warriors and finished of Gozpel's Gnats (Barcelona) with an MDI.

Iroquois have Monotheism so Knights aren't that far off. My gut feeling is that the Iroquois are going to snowball very soon.

The save is > here < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Nad-OBC350BC.zip)


Ted

:goodjob: Nice rebound from the sneak attack to take Barcelona. Those Iroquois troops certainly are disheveling... If Toledo is the last spanish city, maybe we should just take that (thus eliminating them and reducing flip risks) and then concentrate on building up military to tackle the Iroquois before it's too late.

Sorry I haven't been posting much earlier. I didn't have much to add to the discussion.

I've got the game. I should have it played and posted by Sunday evening Pacific time. If the Iroquois attack, I'll go to General Quarters and try and make the best out of the situation.

I'll keep the team posted on any major changes.

I don't know if those Iroquois really want to attack us. That spear on the mountain wouldn't be there if they would go on a sneak attack. Same for the warrior SE of Akkad :hmm:

From the picture, I agree with Aggie...it's not certain that the Iroquois are going after us...they may be heading for Hittites....so I suggest we don't issue a boot order and hope for the best.

Great work Ted, things are shaping up nicely. I think there's a communist conspiracy trying to prevent us fro attacking China! First Babylon, then Spain, Iroquois next? :D

Preflight – 350 BC – Twenty Iroquois units in the vicinity of Akkad. And Hiawatha and Shaka are no longer at war. Even if they were, some of these units are too far off course to be going after the Zulu. I’m going to go on the assumption that we have a sneak attack in progress. I move a horse and a sword towards Akkad. I wake up our three swords in Kyoto and move them across the river.

This should be an interesting interturn. *crosses fingers*

IBT – A MDI outside of Barcelona attacks, redlined and promotes our horse. The Iroquois horde heads south into Zulu lands. Maybe this isn’t right. Maybe they are at war.
Kyoto: horse=>horse

1. 330 AD – Keep two swords at Kyoto to guard our northern front. Send one to the east for the Spanish war.

A Spanish pike has moved next to Barcelona. Probably looking to pillage our iron. I attack with one elite horse, who retreats. A second flawlessly kills the pike.

Use a horse out of Akkad to kill a wandering Spanish warrior. Use our horse army to kill a Spanish LB. Spend 100G, rushing Barcelona’s temple for a little culture there. Leave a wounded horse as the garrison, move the other two horses outside of the city. I hate losing units in a flip.

Still no deal available for feudalism from Theodora.

IBT – In an interesting twist Babylon declares on the Iroquois. Good thing Hiawatha has all his units down in Zululand. All the Iroquois reverse march and head north.
Barcelona: Temple=>spear
Hattusha: Spear=>horse
Ankuwa: horse=>horse
Hiawatha builds the Great Library

2. 310 BC – Amass a force of three horses and our horse army on the heights overlooking Toledo. Leave two horses to cover a Barcelona flip.

IBT – Isabella wants to talk. She’ll give us three slaves, and 5G for peace. Hey, you started this war. Ever hear of reparations?
Isabella helps in the capture of Toledo by attacking one of our horses on a mountain with a LB, which dies.
Then we get this message:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Nad_-_Chinese_War.jpg
A Chinese spear attacks Barcelona and the city falls.
Madrid: horse=>horse
Kyoto: Horse=>sword
Aleppo: spear=>horse

3. 290 BC - @ Barcelona – Kill two of the three spears with the loss of on hp. Glad I kept those horses just out side the city.

Since I only want one war at a time, I dial up Isabella and make the following peace treaty
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/NAD_-_Spanish_peace.jpg
Spend 60G upgrading two swords to MDI. Kill a spear that pillaged the road to Murcia. Attack a second and retreat.

IBT – Looks like Murcia will be a focal point of the Chinese offensive.

4. 270 BC – Barcelona has flipped back to the Spanish. So I won’t be retaking that city.

Stop my workers around Madrid and Murcia to rebuild the road. Move sword towards Murcia. Upgrade another sword. Move a force towards Chengdu. Let’s see if Mao reacts to that threat.

IBT – Isabella does us a favor and throws our horses out of her lands. Then in a major :smoke: move she joins the Babylonians in an alliance against the Iroquois. Nad id you set the AI to max aggression?
Most of the Chinese force moves back towards Chengdu. A horse attacks our MDI promoting him to elite

5. 250 BC – Go after Chinese units that are easy prey. Kill an archer with an MDI. Kill a spear guarding an archer outside of Murcia. That city is safe. Lose a horse on a spear near Madrid.

IBT - A rough time. We lose a sword at Murcia, two MDI and two horses in the Chinese jungles.
Kyoto: MDI=>MDI

6. 230 BC – Kill the archer outside Murcia. Use our horse army to kill two swords. Two fresh MDI take out a spear and an archer. Upgrade a spear in Kyoto and another in Akkad.

IBT – The Babylonians pull the Zulu back into war with the Iroquois.
We lose a spear and a MDI in the Chines jungle. I hate this jungle.

7. 210 BC – Whack a Chinese sword with our army and with draw our forces to heal.

IBT – Tarsus: MDI=>MDI
Hattasha: Horse=>cat
8. 190 BC – A Chinese spear is sneaking in the backdoor outside Akkad. Bomabard then kill him.

Hire a tax lady in Ankuwa.

IBT – Now the Chinese sign on against the Iroquois. China signs the Hittites against us.
Tarsus riots.
The Heroic Epic completes in Seville =>Horse

9. 170 BC – I think we’re also going to be sneak attacked by the Zulu. I pull a spear out of Hattusha and send him the Ankuwa.
I spend 36G rushing the barracks in Murcia. Upgrade the warrior in Ankuwa. I’m going to plan on a skirmishing war on the Chinese front until our forces are stronger. Since I’ve been pulling troops out of cities, I bump lux to 10% rather than hire five or six specialists.

IBT – No Zulu attack. Most of the Hittites run away. A single 3-man rides forth. The Chinese are heading our way again.
Madrid: horse=>horse
Kyoto: MDI=>pike
Murcia: Barracks=>archer

10. 150 BC – Spend 150G upgrading 5 spears. Attack the 3-man with a horse. Horse dies, 3-man redlined.
I fortify most of our units in the north in Kyoto. Most of the units in the south don’t have much movement left.

After Action – We probably need to develop a plan on how to handle this situation. I think the Hittites are pretty weak. The Chinese are not, and they have some difficult terrain to fight in.

Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Nad_-_150_BC.zip

I don't think we should build more horsemen. They are just not very useful for the Chinese attack having poor attack and defense. You can no longer upgrade large numbers of them with the higher cost either.

Lets use speed 1 units; Pikes for protection and MDI to do the work. We can also use the horses we have already got of course (under pikes).

It looks like we are building almost all horses, and horse alone won't cut it. We could stack our units under the army and take Chendu using the horses but it may cost us a lot of horses to do so, but also switch the builds to pikes and MDI to joind the forces. We will want to road the jungle square to connect us to get faster access.

The horses near Murcia can handle the chinese invading forces. Murcia seems the worst town to fight around as we cannot attack and retreat with the horse. I would send the nearby pike up so they go for some other town where we can attack and retreat.

In any case with China having pikes and with us having more horses than we will have resources to upgrade, I would say build Pikes, MDI and Trebuchets exclusively. When we get Chiv we can start building knights.

Agression does seem to be high. The world has been at war for who knows how long and it's only 150 B.C. I agree with Greebley that we should be building more MDI and fewer Horsemen. The cost to upgrade a horseman to a knight is 120 gold, and we don't have enough money to upgrade our whole army.

BTW, I noticed the entire Iroquois offensive on the volcano in that Screenshot you posted. How funny would it have been if it chose that moment to erupt :lol:.

After thinking about this for a while, I think we should send our horses down south where they can play hit and run with the Hittites. Otherwise they aren't very helpful.

Good work Sir Bugsy :). Pity about the sneak attack, but at least we're in the war we wanted, albeit not on our terms. And yes, aggression is set to max, that was part of the game parameters...it's a real bloodfest :p

Sir Bugsy...just played
gozpel...UP NOW
Yom...ON DECK (are you back in action and set to play after gozpel?)
Aggie
Nad
Greebley
Ted Jackson

I can play after Gozpel. I got my computer working a while ago, actually.

I would still like to build horses and upgrade them to Samurais, who need knights in this game :)

But I guess the advantage with slower units is that they don't die as quickly as the weaker horsemen.

I got it.

Samurai are a knight replacement.

Thank you for stating the obvious :)

Time for the 2x4 across the head trick :D

Some mindbending turns and mostly defensive stuff, but not unlucky :)

130bc - Babs wants to renew peace deal, missed that and we lose 8gpt. Ah well.

Aleppo horse -> catapult
Ankuwa horse -> MI

Kill 2 Hittite spears near Tarsus.

Use army to kill a chinese pike near Kyoto, an elite horse retreats from the spear left, a second elite horse kills the spear. If the Chinese wants a fight, it will cost them :)

Fiddle around with citizens in towns to get units quicker.

110bc - Zulu completes Sun Tzu.

Kyoto pike -> pike
Hattusha catapult -> catapult

A swarm of Hittite spears and archers shows up S of Hattusha, I count to 11 units.
6-7 chinese troops comes from north
Shuffle some troops around

90bc - Seville MI -> catapult

Remove a Hittite spear with army and then kill an archer with a horse.

This is a frigging chess-game. 8 chinese units N and 9 Hittites S and only so many units to move around.

70bc - Hiawatha wants a donation of 28 gold, sure.
Zulu is building Leo's

We defend against a chinese archer and a MI. More Hittites are spilling up from the south :(

Kill a 3-man with the army, play very defensive and let the enemy come closer.

50bc - Our pike goes elite defending against 2 hittite archers in Hattusha.

Iro's and Byzantines ally against China!

Another pike defends against chinese MI.

Madrid horse -> pike
Kyoto MI -> MI
Seville catapult -> MI
Hattusha catapult -> MI
Aleppo catapult -> horse

Kill 7 Hittites, lose none.
Kill 6 chinese, lose none. Horses retreats beautifully when hurt :)

30bc - A hittite archer attacks our elite pike in Hattusha and guess what?
Yep, a leader! Why bother wasting our elite horses, when our defenders can do it just as well :)

Ankuwa MI -> pike

Build army with Tojo and load a MI. Kill a hittite spear and 2 archers. The MI in the army goes elite and yet another MI promotes to elite.
Try another MI-elite against chinese, he wins but no dice.

I look every turn for a chance to get Mono, only Iro's knows it yet and Engineering is too expensive to buy alone.

10bc - Hitties wants peace, but I won't take it for the lousy 16g they have.

Tarsus MI -> horse
Akkad MI -> pike

Kill 3 Hittite spears and 2 archers, no losses.

10AD - Kyoto MI -> MI
Uruk temple -> barracks

Remove 2 chinese MI's, no loss.

30AD - Not much, kill 2 units

50AD - Madrid pike -> MI
Seville MI -> MI
Ankuwa pike -> pike

Kill 5 chinese units and get another leader. Should we rush a horseman, because we finally lost one? :)

These wars are very consuming and the enemy doesn't seem to ever run out of units.
But Byzantines are near China now and will help. I think we should take Chengdu and the 2 closest Hittite cities. We have 2 armies south, use them.

If we want to be cheeky, we might take on Zulu soon, as they seem to be down to few cities.

Looks like you had fun there gozpel :thumbsup:


Ted

wow, great stuff gozpel, sounds hair-raising, and very well done to fight on two fronts so successfully...and great leader luck too :).

I think the problem we have at the moment is that we're facing deity AIs at their peak time, early middle ages...I think as the game progresses they'll get more and more gassed and the industrial period will be our game winner. For now we just try to grab as many cities as possible. And it's fun to fight on deity against the odds.

Yom...UP NOW
Aggie...ON DECK

I got it. I will play this tonight Eastern Time.

Here's a question. Perhaps we should press the war home on the Hittites and fight a holding action on the Chinese.

Do the Chinese have horses?

I'm afraid I don't have the time to play. I think I should withdraw from this SG as I've been busy lately and the rest of the summer isn't going to be any better :(. I think I signed up for more SGs than I had time for.

Okay Yom, no problem.

Aggie...UP NOW
Nad...ON DECK

Got it. But I have a couple of other SG's in interesting phases as well. So this will probably have to wait until tomorrow.

What a great idea for a variant. :goodjob:
I'm lurking this one during lunchtime @ work. :D

IHT: We are average vs the Chinese and strong vs the Hittites. Not bad. We are a bit behind in tech, but a pointy stick approach should help us there.
I switch a few cities to infra (markets, aquaducts). Horse army and elite horse close in on Hattusas.

IT: Spain and Iroquois sign peace. The Iroquois send a lot of troops in our direction... But these are probably on their way to the Zulu. Kyoto: MDI->horse.

Turn 1 (70 AD) MDI joins the other army and stands just north of Hattusas now. MDI takes out a catapulted sword that landed south of Kyoto.

IT: The Chinese see another threat and move away from our lands. They are now attacked by Byzantine AC's.

Turn 2 (90 AD) Near Hattusha two archers are destroyed by combined catapult and horsemen power. Two armies and an elite horse kill 6 spears, but Hattusas has more of them.

IT: Kyoto: horse->horse. Babylon establishes an embassy.

Turn 3 (110 AD) I failed to take Hattusas and the armies have to retreat.

Turn 4 (130 AD) Two Hittite spear in our lands are killed.

IT: Kyoto: horse->horse.

Turn 5 (150 AD) We kill three Chinese 's, but lose one MDI and a horse.

Turn 6 (170 AD) MDI loses vs a Hittite archer :( Horse army kills two spear in Hattusas, but still a spear is defending it. The MDI army can try again next turn. The Byzantines are close to Chengdu. I had no luck in the war vs China so far. A lot of RNG bad luck. So we are not in front of the gates.

IT: Babylon and Byzantines MA vs the Zulu. Kyoto: horse->horse.

Turn 7 (190 AD) Finally the MDI and horse army manage to capture Hattusas and the MoM.

IT: Babylon and Iroquois sign peace. Iroquois and Hittites MA vs Zulu.
China and the Byzantines pretty much kill each other. Nice to watch...

Turn 8 (210 AD) Might as well push the Hittites from our planet now...

IT: The Zulu demand wines and I tell them to get lost. They back down.
Kyoto: horse->horse, Hattusha: aquaduct->market. Uruk: barracks->courthouse, Murcia: Harbor->market.

Turn 9 (230 AD) Insane bad luck during the siege of Tyrana. Our horse army redlines vs a spear in a size 8 city :( The city has more than 3 spears...

IT: Seville: market->horse. Iroquois finish Knights Templar.

Turn 10 (250 AD) I kill a pike and longbow coming form China. I retreat the armies that were closing in on Tyrnana, but failed to take it.

I felt very unlucky this turn :(

It does sound like you had a streak of bad luck there. Still we captured a town and the armies will heal so progress was made :D

Steady stuff Aggie,

you just got the flipside of the good luck I had taking Barcelona.


Ted

It's all good, we're still expanding, and I think we're ahead of schedule...I would not have expected to have this much land by this date. In some test games I tried it wasn't until about 750AD that I really began to take cities off AIs, so we're doing very well in this game!

Got it.

Aggie, you may have had some lousy RNG luck, but you played it very smart and compensated for the RNG. Well done.

Where I played on the defense and could pick my targets and 'pult them, you have a different task on the offense. So good job fighting 2 civs and RNG :)

Thx. It's just frustrating. But it happens sometimes.

Yeah, cheer up Aggie :). You've played in enough SGs with me where in 10 turns you've annihalated 20 cities :D. Even colossal warmongers have a downturn every now and then ;). We'll see how you fare in your next turn :goodjob:

I didn't mean to sound so negative... We indeed do very well. But we can expect flips, that's why I think that we should hurt the Hittites a bit more.

You should think this way: you absorded the bad RNG with that army, so you could get better results on other battles.

sorry for the delay, gonna play now...

Tokugawa the Unsettled, inherited turn 250AD

We're at war with the Hittites and China, defending against China but attacking the Hittites. Looks good.

Hattusas is quite vulnerable at the moment, defended by a 2HP army. I hope the Hittites don't have any fast units. Move pike from Tarsus to help.

Otherwise things look very good. The disadvantage of this variant is that our cities are rather far apart, which makes defence difficult, eg Uruk is vulnerable. Aleppo and Murcia changed to aqueducts. Hattusas set to starvation and switched to worker. Uruk's warriors upgraded.

One thing we're short on is workers. I know it's a military game but with worker purchases off the table and with us capturing cities rather than razing, we're not too strong on workforce. I think we need to train some more, since we have a lot of tiles to work on and the ex-AI cities need balance changing from irrigation to mines as we capture them (AI always over-irrigates).

Checking diplomacy, a number of AIs are taking a whipping. Babylon, Byzantium, Zulu, Hittites and Spain all have 4 cities or less. China has a few cities, Iroquois have quite a lot, but an early conquest/domination is well on the cards here.

IT: Hittite units move into our territory. Hittites and Iroquois ally against China. Chinese MDI kills our pike in the jungle.

Kyoto horse ----------> horse

Turn 1, 260AD: we're one city short of being able to turn our existing leader into another army, so I hold on to it for now. Move units around but do not attack this turn. Upgrade a warrior in Murcia.

Decide to get into the tech action now. Aw feck, someone's broken our rep :(. We can't pay gpt for techs...apparently we've betrayed the Iroquois...when did that happen? I'm getting really fed up of broken rep games.

However, the Zulu are at war with Iroquois so will accept gpt. Buy monotheism from them for 59gpt. Monotheism gets Engineering + 13g from Byzantium. Republic, Chivalry and Invention are generally about, while the Iroquois have a monopoly on Theology.

IT: kill 2 Hittite archers on defence. Big Chinese movement. Hattusas riots as resistance ends.

Turn 2, 270AD: MDI army kills spear defending Tyrana. Kill a Hittite warrior. Kill Chinese MDI near Kyoto. Upgrade some cat's.

IT: lose MDI to Chinse longbow.

Hattusas worker ----------> worker
Kyoto horse ---------> horse
Seville horse ----------> pike
Ankuwa aqueduct ---------> horse
Iroquois building Leo's.

Turn 3, 280AD: MDI army kills spear at Tyrana but reduced to 5HP. Horse army kills 2 spears but reduced to 4HP. There is an unfortified spear on top, so decide to attack with horses (don't want to risk MDI army)...first horse does 1HP damage but is killed; second horse does 0HP damage and promotes the spear. 3rd horse is killed but reduces spear to 1HP. 5HP MDI army cmpletes the job and we capture the city with a settler, slave and 39HP. Set to worker.

Form another horse army with available leader. I expect we'll get more leaders before we get samurai. Upgrade more cat's.

IT: lose a horse that was defending the injured horse army. Get the Pentagon message.

Tyrana quells resistors and riots.
Aleppo aqueduct ----------> market

Turn 4, 290AD: upgrade another cat, kill a Hittite spear. Then...well, there's no easy way to expalin this. I attacked a 1HP Hittite archer that was in the way of our cities with the 4HP horse army, and lost :o. What were the chances of that? By my estimate, about 1.5%. Don't you just love the RNG?

IT: lots of Chinese movement.

Madrid market ----------> worker
Kyoto horse ----------> horse

Turn 5, 300AD: upgrade a cat. Lose horse, kill a Hittite spear. Send other horse army to do some pillaging in China.

IT: Hittites drop spear near Tyrana. Lots of Chinese units in the north, may have to make peace with them soon.

Hattusas worker ---------> worker
Seville pike ----------> pike
Ankuwa horse ---------> market.

Turn 6, 310AD: kill Hittite spear. Use horse army to kill Chinese MDI. Pillage one set of Chinese gems, move to other source.

IT: Nad the army killer :o. You know, this serves me right. I've heard all these rumours on the forums about armies with decent HP not being attacked by the AI if there are softer targets available. To be honest, I've not quite believed them: I've felt (instinctively, and from games I've played solo) that the AI will attack armies if it wants to, but will just avoid them if possible. In this situation, I decided to trust in the rumours rather than my own instinct. We had a 12/14 horse army in jungle in China, and it just got slaughtered by Chinese MDI. Like I say, it serves me right for trusting in rumours, but it doesn't do our team much good. I am extremely sorry guys :(. 2 armies lost in 3 turns. Not a record I'm going to remember with fondness.

Madrid worker ----------> worker
Kyoto horse ----------> horse
Spanish building Leo's.

Turn 7, 320AD: time to let bygones be bygones and refocus. Kill a Chinese pike and then make peace, they've got too many MDIs in the area threatening our cities, and I don't intend to increase my cock-ups in this turn :rolleyes: Peace treaty + 295g gets us Chivalry. At least we can have some fun with samurai now.

Sign straight rop with Zulu to allow me to move MDI army towards Hittites.

Upgrade 4 horses to samurai. Set and configure Kyoto and Seville to samurai.

Wines to China for spices + 1gpt. We need the luxury and we're not going to attack them for 20 turns anyway due to the peace treaty.

IT: Tarsus aqueduct ---------> market
palace expanded.

Turn 8, 330AD: MDI army moves towards Harran.

IT: Babylon and China ally against Hittites.

Madrid worker ----------> courthouse

Turn 9, 340AD: MDI army kills spear at Harran. Upgrade another horse. Send lone samurai out to look for Hittite target to trigger GA.

IT: Hittites drop off spear near Tyrana.

Turn 10, 350AD: MDI army kills 2 spears at Harran, but is badly wounded and there is an unfortified spear on top, so have to call off attack for now. Kill Hittite spear near Tyrana.

Everything is a bit chaotic at the moment...troops are all over the place, so I'm going to play an extra couple of turns to leave the next player with less of a mess to deal with.

IT: Hittites drop off archer. Iroquois sneak attack Hittites!

Hattusas worker ----------> temple
Kyoto samurai ----------> samurai
Akkad market ----------> samurai
Byzantines building Leo's.

Turn 11, 360AD: kill 2 Hittite archers, the second is by a samurai, and we are in a golden age :).

Reconfigure cities. Kyoto, at exactly 30spt is set to a pike a turn.

IT: Hittites and China make peace.

Kyoto pike ----------> pike
Seville samurai ----------> samurai
Hattusha market ----------> courthouse

Turn 12, 370AD: Reorganizing units. Upgrade a horse.

Many apologies for the poor play. Still, we're doing well. After the Hittites are exterminated, which the Iroquois will do if we're not quick, we can pick a new target. Perhaps Byzantium. I don't think we should worry about the Iroquois too much. If, as looks likely, it comes down to a 1 on 1 fight against them, I have no dounts we'll trounce them. They still don't have horses ;).

Enjoy the GA.

A 12 HP horse army isn't THAT strong, especially vs a healthy MDI. The army story is true if it is a 12 HP pike army in the Middle Ages.

EDIT: I agree with Tarkeel's post below.

A 12 hp horse army has a defence-count of 12x1, which is about the same as a veteran pike at 4x3. It looks like the AI avoids the "impossible" combats, such as attacking a defence-count 36 pike army (12x3) with MDI. Exactly what it will and won't attack isn't quite clear to me, but the rule of thumb is it won't attack an army of the normal defenders of the age as long as it has green HPs.

Atleast that's my 2cp on how it's working :)

Well, I'm feeling very stupid. But let's not dwell on the negatives. Let's focus on the positives, such as Greebley being up next! Greebley would certainly never make horrendous cock-ups like me, right Greebley? ;) :D


Greebley...UP NOW
Ted Jackson...ON DECK
Sir Bugsy
gozpel
Aggie
Nad

Greebley has to salvage two mediocre turns :p ;) And I'm sure that he wants revenge for AG12 and AG10 :lol:

We haven't been at war with the Iroquois, so we didn't break our rep that way. Did we have a lux/resource deal with them that was cut due to war?

We haven't been at war with the Iroquois, so we didn't break our rep that way. Did we have a lux/resource deal with them that was cut due to war?


I just wonder....towards the end of my previous turns the Iroquois DEMANDED (and received) horses. Then, in Greebley's turn, the Iroquois decalred war on the Zulu...could that have cut the route? Lending wieght to this is that Greebley then had the Zulu demand (and receive) horses from us.

If that is the case, what a flipping joke. Losing your rep like that absolutely sucks...

Hope civ4 has a better rep system.

But I can understand why this is hard to fix. For example, if things like this don't affect rep, you can always disconnect your resources if AI demands it from you.

The problem with reputation is when a spearman pillage a road on the other side of the universe, where you never been and never seen, and the player get a rephit that last for the rest of the game and just breaks it. Or some idiot of a civ declare war on their neighbour and can't hold their own towns and lose a trade route.

There should be some sort of flag on units that pillage and destroy stuff, so the right civ gets the blame. But I guess it's too hard to fix as microbe said. Still, it just stupid.

Nad,
I have been playing AW alot which uses armies and feel I have some grasp for the "rules" of armies.

1) Armies seem either to be completely safe or will be hit by all eligable units. There seems to be little gray area.

2) If a unit has an attack somewhere between 2x and 4x of an armies defense (and it may possibly vary), the unit will attack the army. For this reason defense 1 units should be avoided for armies. They will be attacked. Horse armies are not the best for this reason (you have to keep them from all attack 4 units).

3) An army loses any form of immunity from attack if it is in a town. In a single player game, I made the mistake of allowing a Cav army to capture and stay in a town. It was over-run by enemy cav after being ignored for turns - never leave an ar