Bz8 is going to be a glorious victory. I just remembered today morning how Bz3 was an ignominious defeat. That too was a AWE and it was not even a 5CC AWE. Yet we were wiped out before we could reach the middle ages. The main difference was that while Bz8 was a continents small map, Bz3 was a large pangeae. This goes to show how difficult games can become when the map is bigger and all connected. So I decided to try a straight Sid game on pangeae huge and go for a space race victory..

Map Settings:
Type - Pangea (maximum landmass)
Size - Huge
Climate - Warm, Wet
Geography - 4 billion years old.
And of course since this is a Bz game, No barbs.

Game settings:
All victory conditions enabled. However we are going for space only.
Normal AI (not more or less aggresive).

Ag12 (which is also a space race Sid) showed us the importance of alphabet. Just because we did not have alphabet in that game that game is seriously in doubt. Now alphabet is not that important in a pangeae game but even then it is a nice starting tech that has lots of trade potentials. So as one of the first tech I decided to have alphabet.

What about the second tech? I decided on pottery, agricultural combination. The agricultural trait gives a extra food bonus which helps in expansion of the empire. That extra food is huge. Plus with pottery we can immediately start on granaries for our settler factory and on science we can start on writing.

So thinking all these things I decided on the Iroquois. The 11th start throwed up a very good start. We see a lux and we can start up a settler factory and we see hordes of incense that we can trade later.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bz9_Start.JPG

Can we win this? Can we go to the stars (Ad Astra) thru Sid (per Sid).

Roster:
Greebley
Arizona_Steve
Mark1031
Grahamiam
open
betazed

I have put myself at the end of the roster so that the game can proceed while I am out from tomorrow till 7th of July. In the meantime players can start playing. Remember the first player takes 20 turns and 10 turns from then on.

However, before we start playing let us discuss our Ancient Age overall strategy.

The Start save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Bz9_4000_BC.SAV)

My only experience on a huge pangea sid map was playing AWS and trying to survive until 1000 BC (almost did it with the Sumerians - I was 6 turns away in one game).

One problem I noticed with Huge Sid is the initial tech cost. I think doing min research on writing may be best.

I think we should settle where we are. With two cows and agriculture, we can mine the cows and still get +5 food when we grow to size 2. I think this will get us up and running fastest.

For builds, I think 3 warriors to explore and then a granary.

My thought on overall strategy would be to get a settler factory ASAP and get as many cities as we can quickly; while using the warriors to make contact and try to stay in the running in terms of tech (may not be possible).

How many civs are your opponents? Did you make a custom map?

@Aggie: max opponents. Standard game rules; no customization.

@Greebley: I agree. Min research on Writing immediately is the way to go. After that depending on the situation we can go for a philo gambit or min on Lit and go for the GL.

Woah... Huge map and maximum opponents. I think we'll be down to five turns per player by the middle ages.

I just counted the SG's that I'm in and with pain in my heart I have tell myself not to join this one :(

@aggie: Sorry to hear that. Well, you can at least cheer us along. :)

@steve: if it comes to that we will set it to 5 turns but my turns on huge map do that take that long. But then again I play on a monster machine.

Actually my machine isn't that bad (Athlon XP 2400, 1GB, 9700 Pro - and of course a Dell 2001fp LCD monitor :D ), I was thinking more from a micromanagement perspective, as there will be tons of cities on a huge map.

Still waiting for the motherboard makers and ATI to get their act together. Next gaming rig will be FX53 / 2GB / X800XT-PE. Yes, I have money to burn. Been planning this for the last six months :D

That's a nice rig, Steve. :thumbsup:

Check out mine (http://www.alienware.com/Configurator_Pages/area-51_ex.aspx?SysCode=PC-AREA51EX&SubCode=SKU-DEFAULT). :D I have the 3.2 Ghz processor and 2GB of RAM version. I use it for lot of number crunching too so it really requires all that RAM.

Playing Emperor has been a stretch for me. Sid just seems insane. I think A few more SG's under my belt at ~Emperor are needed before I can contribute to a game like this one.

I've already added it to my lurk list.

Too tempting a challenge. I'd like to join. May need a skip or 2 this summer though.

Strategy: This really is a perfect start. We'll need it. I agree with 3 warriors to explore first. I would do a settler then before the granary to get a costal city and currgah's out in both directions. Rapid contacts and trading will be critical and it may be difficult to get warriors through the other civs. My first inclination was to move to the coastal hill to found but I don't think the 2 move delay would be worth it. Obviously then the most rapid land grab possible. Our main problem will be that the AI's will all know each other and so the tech pace will be unreal. The human really benifits from suicide exploration on other maps.

i'd like to give this a go as it is indeed a tempting challange :) not only the difficulty but the time between turns :lol:

i'd like to give this a go as it is indeed a tempting challange :) not only the difficulty but the time between turns :lol:

Time between turns a challenge on a huge map? :lol: Just have a look at AG3 ;) j/k

Regarding the start: You not only have a settler factory, but it's even better. You should be able to build a warrior/settler every four turns!

Welcome aboard mark and grahamiam. :goodjob:

I think we have a quorum. There is still one slot open.

Greebley you can start whenever you are ready.

Greebley ----> Up
Arizona_Steve ------> On deck
Mark1031
Grahamiam
open
betazed ------> Out from tomorrow till 7th July.

Got it. I will start playing it. According to TechCalc writing is 800 beakers. We will be doing a lot of min research I suspect.

4000 BC: Move worker onto E cow (which irrigates both cows a turn faster than NW). I start min research on writing.
3750 BC: Build a warrior who will generally go S following the E coast. Grow to size 2 so Raise Lux to 20%
3600 BC: Build a warrior who will head NWish
3550 BC: Grow to size 3 so raise Lux to 30%
3500 BC: Build last warrior; granary in 12. 3rd warrior will go SW.
3250 BC: That looks like an Ekidu. Hello Sumeria. I trade Alphabet for 11 gold and Bronze working. They have WC too.
3150 BC: Lux up to 40%. Granary works out very well: Growth in 4, Granary in 3.
3050 BC: Sumeria has CB as well.
3000 BC: Build Granary and start a worker.

Notes:
I would build a worker and then a settler. We can get to a warrior and settler in 4 turns faster.

So far we look good :D

Here is a map of the known world so far:

I, too, am tempted to join, but I don't want to be in too many SGs at once (though I'm not nearly in as many as Aggie). Hopefully Sling3 will end soon as it's basically in the bag, so sign me up.

(0) 3000BC
We're already running 40% luxury tax, so I'm going to pop a settler after the worker completes. Gilgamesh is up Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial.

IBT
Sumaria boots our exploring warrior from their territory.

(1) 2950BC
Luxuries are raised to 50% as Salamanca grows to size 6. It's going to grow in 2 turns, so I swap it's worker build to a settler. Then switch one tile to an incense hill to prevent the city reaching size 7 before the settler appears, as this would be very inefficient in terms of food usage.
Salamanca will do nothing but produce settlers from now on.

(4) 2800BC
Salamanca pops it's first settler and starts another. Drop Luxury tax to 40%.
An Arabian scout appears next to Salamanca, and I note that he has Masonry in addition to the two Sumarian techs. He refuses to sell it however.
I send our first settler North to settle near the forest deer, as a coastal city is a definite requirement for Curraghs and contacts.

(6) 2710BC
Luxuries back to 50% as Salamanca grows. I notice that science can also be turned down to 10%.

(7) 2670BC
Niagara falls is founded next to the forest deer and starts a Curragh. I thought about moving one tile to the east, but it looks like there may be a river estuary further east, which would be worth settling once we block the Sumarians and Arabs.

(8) 2630BC
Another settler pops out of Salamanca. I want to send him South to squeeze the Sumarians a bit, and to get a military factory going.
Lux tax back down to 40%.
Summarians got Masonry before I was able to trade with the Arabs :(

(10) 2550BC
Lux tax to 50% as Salamanca reaches size 6.

There is a settler in transit. He needs to move one tile South (onto the grassland) and settle to lock up the incense there. Once the next settler completes I would switch to two-turn worker farm to get us up to par on workers.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/BZ9_2550BC.jpg

Pre turn: No changes

2510: Move settler into position

2470: Found Grand River. Salamanca Set->set. Niagra Falls currgah->currgah. Send currgah west. Arabs start Oracle.

2430: Egypt gets Colossus. Move settler toward river forest.

2390 zzz

2350: See Summerian settler headed toward our land. Dance around with 1 warrior to try to delay.

2310: Salamanca Set->set Maya get Pyramids

2270: Grand River warrior->worker. Niagra Falls currgah->worker. Send Currgah east.

2230 Summeria boots us to the south. :D Inca get Oracle

2190: Salamanca Set->set. Found Allegheny in river forest. Found Cattaraugus.

2150: Summer settler heads further into our territory.

2110: Niagra Falls worker-> warrior


Tried to expand as aggressively as possible into our very lush and well shielded lands. Summeria is getting pushy. I don’t know where the summerian settler is going but try to stop/delay him. We have a settler that I was sending to the red dot on the map. No trades on my turns which is a bit worrisome. I hope we get writing 1st and meet some of the other folks. I think a GL run in Grand River would definitely be worth a try. I’d start prebuild as soon as we get writing and hopefully can trade for Masonry. So far so good but we have a lot of territory to uncover. At least no ones built Sun Tsu’s yet :lol: .

Can I join please? I've tried once to beat Sid on a Space Race and lost when I hit modern era to another civ that took the spaceship and launched the damn thing. Ever since then I have been a lone, wondering boy in search of a space race win.

ok, got it. will play and post tonight (~14hrs). anymore comments welcome :)

edit: i see the warrior/settler 4T pump is ready to roll so I will set it up to run during my turns.

If we are going to build warriors in our capitol, I am wondering if a barracks would be worthwhile? If we switched to one and then built a settler, it would slow settlers our settlers by 2 turns, but give us Veteran units that would be more upgradable if/when we get iron.

[Edit: Thinking on this, it is probably not worth it. I think we need to settle as fast as we can.]

[Edit: Thinking on this, it is probably not worth it. I think we need to settle as fast as we can.]
I agree. I'll just get it setup to do a warrior and a settler every 4T. the one thing i see is a lot of cities without MP's, kind of like hanging raw meat around your neck and walking thru the jungle. hopefully, we won't attract too many tigers before we get the MP's up.

Sounds very reasonable. I think you will be building a warrior, and then doing the warrior,settler, warrior, settler, etc, so that will be 2 new warriors in the next 3 turns which will help the situation.

I am also thinking we will need to fight Sumeria with Arabia's help when we are ready. We will need more land in order to have a chance at competing at the SID level. That will not be easy.

Why not set keep our capital as 4-turn settler factory and another city to warriors/workers. It would be much more efficient as the settler factory would eventually grow more than we want it since it has enough food to be a 4-turn settler factory (rather than just enough to be a 6-turn settler/warrior factory).

I also would keep the settler factory going until we grab as much as possible. New cities warrior/worker IMO.

You can build a warrior AND settler every 4 turns. Sounds like even better than a settler factory :)

EDIT: A warrior takes 10 shields and a settler needs 30. You can easily mine a BG tile and you have your warrior/settler factory on size 5.

I think we are already there. We already get 10 shields at size 5 which is what is required. Since we are going to be size 4 after building the settler, a warrior (takes 2 turns) will get us to size 5. We then can build a warrior in 1 and a settler in 3 forever after. I am sure this is what grahamiam was planning on doing.

I am sure this is what grahamiam was planning on doing. Me too. My input was a reaction on Yom's and Mark1031's remarks.

I think we are already there. We already get 10 shields at size 5 which is what is required. Since we are going to be size 4 after building the settler, a warrior (takes 2 turns) will get us to size 5. We then can build a warrior in 1 and a settler in 3 forever after. I am sure this is what grahamiam was planning on doing.
this is exactly what i saw. another city or 2 can create barracks and start pumping out vet units.

first, the 1750BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/BZ9_1750BC.SAV)

Preflight check: Verify we are indeed doing 10spt @ size 5 so 4T warrior/settler pump is primed. Looks like a Sumerian warrior/settler pair is about to crimp our land.

Check cities and everything looks a-ok.

Sumeria and Arabia up Mas, WC, and CB.

IBT: We are booted from Arabia; Sumerian W/S pair continue NW; Sala settler -> warrior; Grand River worker -> warrior

T1: 2070BC MM lux slider; Settler heads SE to try to keep Sumeria from settling our area. Curraghs and warriors explore

T2: 2030BC Settler to coast; curragh and warriors explore

IBT: Sala warrior -> warrior; Allegany warrior -> warrior; Cattaraugus warrior -> worker

T3: 1990BC warrior stays in Sala for MP duty;

IBT: the Sumerian W/S pair continue to do the chicken dance near our incense. I think our settler and warrior in the area are making them crazy :lol:

Sala warrior -> settler; Niagra Falls warrior -> barracks;

T4: 1950BC Switch Catta to barracks from worker (1 in the area already and the site has good shield potential). Lower lux slider to 20% thanks to the 2 warriors in Sala. Found Oil Springs to foil the Sumerian W/S pair -> barracks; Found Tonawanda where Mark wanted it.-> worker. We are now making 17gpt.

T5: 1910BC 2 warriors in Sala allow the lux slider to stay @ 20%; MM Sala off BG onto tobacco for extra gold.

IBT: Grand River warrior -> warrior

T6: 1870BC Curraghs keep exploring

Sala settler -> warrior

T7: 1830BC S/W pair move out to river location in the W since that seems to be where the Sumerian S/W pair are aiming towards. MM lux slider to 30% due to warrior leaving.

Tech notes: Sumeria up Mas, Wheel, WC, CB, and IW. Arabs are still down Wheel and IW but I can’t buy either for 246g and 22gpt (lux and sci off). One funny thing I see is that Sumeria is in “Awe” of our culture! All we have as far as culture is the Palace :lol:

IBT: Sala warrior -> settler; Niagra Falls curragh -> worker; Allegany warrior -> worker
T8: 1790BC

T9: 1750BC MM lux slider to 20%. Arabs are still down IW and Wheel to Sumeria so Sumeria. Still can’t pull a deal for the Wheel for all of our gold. Since Sumeria likely knows someone, the dingy from Niagra Falls heads that way.

IBT: Writing -> Lit @ 10% since we can’t improve the rate unless we lower the lux.
Arabs are building Temple of Artemis; Persia completes MoM

T10: 1710BC MM Sala off BG onto tobacco for extra gold

Notes: We can buy The Wheel from Sumeria for Writing and 273g. Recommend we do that as someone else out there already knows Writing +. Arabs are still down IW and Wheel + Writing so we should be able to get a few techs from Writing.

Warrior/Settler Pair are heading 1T NW to river grass for settlement. Looks like the Sumerian W/S pair are heading due W (maybe a horse we can’t see?

We need a town designated a the Glib builder. Currently, all towns are in the process of building something that can be switched to a Palace prebuild (assuming we get Mas from the trades). Cattaraugus looks good to me as it has 5 bg’s, 1 forrest, and 1 hill in it’s current radius and will get 2 more BG’s once the next city is built. Then again, this could be our military city.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/BZ9-1750BC.JPG

I suggest granary in Grand River (possibly a temple too), then start palace prebuild for Great Library.

I suggest granary in Grand River (possibly a temple too), then start palace prebuild for Great Library.
ok, but it will take 12 turns to build the granery there if we switch now (with growth in 3T increase spt to 4 and MM in 2T and before growth size 4 to forest for extra shield). at size 5, we should make aroun 5spt and 6 around 6spt so a temple will take another 11 turns. we will still be around 50-60 turns (didn't work out all the numbers) till GLib with only 27 turns till Lit.

imho, the next settler can go unescorted to our back country (4NW, 1W) and the warrior from Sala can go to Grand River for MP duty to help with happiness. that way we could forgo the temple (but still build the granery to accelerate growth) and count on 2 warriors and our lux hooked up to help with happiness.

We can get by without a granary by doing worker merges and we can get by without a temple by raising our LUX. The GLIB is probably worth doing both for. Our window of opportunity will be small. We can try a massive drive for the GLib if we so want (workers concentrate mostly on improving Grand River terrain - Other towns build workers, Workers added to Grand Rivers as squares improve).

This is by far the fastest way to get a wonder. Single minded improvement of a single city. We want to trade for masonry for the Palace prebuild.

At SID level, if we want the wonder I think we need to do this. Note that it may be this effort does not net us the wonder (It does get us a productive city however so it is not entirely a waste - just mostly).

We can have size 1 towns produce workers and our capitol too once we get the last lands settled (with perhaps one or two earlier workers?). One big issue will be demands for Lit however. Once we get the workers, we can build military to minimize this, but Lit might be stolen from us.

ok, i have no problem with that. however, i would like to suggest we use Cattaraugus instead of Grand River as it has the following going for it:
1. more shields in the que
2. plenty of BG's around
3. lower corruption (both distance and rank and will be connected via road to the capitol in 2T)

i may be missing something but i looks better to me. maybe less forests?

We can get by without a granary by doing worker merges

Or a settler merge..

I like Cattaraugus and worker merge/lux increase. The GL wil be critical and we should play it as best we can. Palace timed to lit and max shields @ size 12 thereafter. There is really nothing much more important to do now except finish our last few cities and avoid war.

Ya Cattaraugus looks good to me as well.

I think we should then switch Grand River away from a warrior and to a worker. We have sufficient non-veteran warriors already.

I think we may need to wait for Betazed to get back before continuing. Yom would be up next except he mentioned he was having problems with starting Civ and asked for a skip in another game. I don't know if Betazed wants a seventh player so we don't yet know if Foresight is in the game or not (he is past the last open slot filled by Yom), and Betazed would be up after that.

So I think we wait for Betazed to decide who is up next. He will be back on the 7th. Does this make sense?

The only exception would be if Yom gets Civ running again. I think it is safe if he takes his turn.

sounds logical, both switching GR to a worker and waiting for Betazed :)

I got C3C running again, so I can take my turn. I actually wasn't sure if I was in this game :crazyeye: since I never saw Betazed post an updated roster and Foresight had also shown some interest to play.

Betazed is away and so couldn't post the updated roster. I think you (Yom) are safe in assuming you are in the game as you posted first for the open slot he listed and I happen to know you are "qualified" in terms of skill (well at least as qualified as the rest of us :D ).

So you can go ahead and play, or wait for Betazed. I think either option will be acceptable.

Turn 0 - Grand River swapped to a worker.
Writing + 273 gold goes to Sumeria for The Wheel.
Writing and The Wheel goes to Arabia for Masonry, CB and 46
gold (Warrior code would have cost us 6 gpt without the 46 gold,
which is a bit much for such a cheap tech).
Sumeria is up IW, Math, Myst and WC, while Arabia is up Myst
and WC.

Grahamiam was right as there are horses in the West. Luckily,
they're in the first 9 of the city we're founding 2 turns from now.

Hmmm...and was this map edited? I notice Ocean tiles next to
coastal tiles (without the usual sea-buffer) all around our Western
Coast.

IBT - The Sumerian Settler pair heads north, not the direction we
wanted.
Grand River:Worker->Worker

Turn 1 - One of our Southern Warriors notices dark red borders.
Presumably those of the Byzantines.

IBT - We get booted out of Arabia.
The Sumerian Settler pair continues north.
Salamanca:Settler->Warrior.

Turn 2 - I send the settler to our Backlands, but it is doubtful that
we'll get a choice spot with Sumeria being there.

Mauch Chunk is founded on the river, next to Horses and pulling
in 2 BGs for Cattaraugus. It is set to a worker.

I also notice 'Emphasize production' isn't on. It can gain us a lot of
shields over time and is crucial in a difficult game like this, so
please keep it on.

Sweet, our traveling Curragh was teleported across the ocean!
(only 6 tiles wide, so it may just be a U-shaped continent.

We meet the Hittites AND the Incans! What a lucky break :D.
Unfortunately, both of them are far more advanced than us and
have huge empires.
Sumeria just got Philosophy, but the Incans must have already
gotten it and picked MM as their free tech.
Hittites have the same techs as Sumeria - philosophy + MM.

Let's see if we can swing a deal here...Hmm...apparently not even
close. All our gpt + gold (88 gold and 20 gpt) can't pry philosophy
or MM. Damn those Huge map tech prices. Our W. Exploring
warrior enters the red borders but we still have no contact (the
borders just expanded, so I guess the computer checks to see if
you are next to their border before cultural expansions occur).

I continue to shadow the Sumerian Settler pair (hereafter known
as SS ;) ) with a warrior.

IBT - The SS enters our proposed city site.
Salamanca:Warrior->Settler
Allegheny:Worker->Worker

Turn 3 - Our teleported Curragh finds a Babylonian Spearman and
our SW. Warrior finds the Byzantines.

The Byzantines are as advanced as the Incans, but the Babylonians
(surprisingly, seeing as they're usually the most advanced nation)
lack Writing and are only up WC, IW, and Math. I smell a deal
here.

Writing + 38 gold gets us IW.
At first I thought Iron was nowhere to be found, but we actually
have iron right under Salamanca. Say bye-bye to the 4-turn
warrior, settler farm.
Once again WC is very expensive (8 gpt + 70 gold at least) so IW
gets us Mysticism and 4 gold from the Arabs. They are up
Polytheism and WC now.
Since our warrior confirmed that we are on a U-Shaped continent,
I send our teleported Curragh North.

IBT - An arab settler pair appears south of Tonawanda. I'll be
damed if I let them take a city site of ours.
The Sumerian Settler pair moves North Again.
The Byzantines complete SoZ.

Turn 4 - Well that's freaky. Our curragh finds borders with the
same colors as ours. We'll see who it is next turn.
I send some warriors out of Grand River, Catta, Tonawanda and
salamanca to block the settler pair and up lux at a cost of 5 gpt.

IBT - We get kicked out of Byzantine lands. I'm not sure our
Warrior can continue his exploration.
The SS. continues north and another SS shows up from the south.
Grand River:worker->worker (next one may be a temple to pull in
3 more BGs for Catta).
Tonawanda:worker->worker

Turn 5 - We don't quite meet the color theif but we'll do so next
turn. Our SW. Warrior is going to wait a little before he enters
Byzantine land again.

IBT - The Arab settler pair retreats. The southern SS moves W. to
the coast (maybe to settle? if so, Tonawanda needs some culture
soon). The Northern SS, surprisingly, doesn't settle and instead
moves SW. I'll try to block it in time to settle.
Salamanca:Settler->Settler (I figure we can go
Settler->settler->spearman->settler and get as many settlers in the
same amount of time but trading 2 warriors for a spearman).

Turn 6 - Nvm, what I thought was another civ was actually just
the incans.

Still no trades, next turn I will start exploring Byz lands again and
hopefully not get kicked out too soon.

IBT - The Arab pair settles, as expected.
The SS pair....Settles, damnit.

Turn 7 - Where should we settle? We can still settle in the original
spot, but it will be very agressive. I made a tentative dotmap, but I
had a hard time without sea tiles (ocean tiles are 0 food, 0 shields,
0 trade) and there really isn't a configuration that avoids a tight
builds without wasting tiles or the lake.

tough luck with the sumerian settler! took them long enough to find that spot :lol: are both the spots proposed near the settler on a river? if so, then either should do fine. the other spots look good too, though i'd take the freshwater spot 1st to take advantage of our agri trait asap and to secure our border.

Actually, none of the spots proposed are on the river. The only river sites are very agressive (2 tiles from the city). As for settling the lake city first, it is definitely my intention to do so. The southernmost black dot is really a fishing village (and a bad one at that, thanks to the Ocean). The only 'real' cities will be the lake city and the city near the sumerians. Though we could make all the proposed city sites 'real' cities (sans the southern black dot), but they wouldn't be able to grow much past size 12.

Ok guys, I am back.

I see we have a full roster and I see I am up since Yom played last. I will be able to get to this tomorrow night.

I'm actually not done with my turns yet, so you don't have to worry about being up in *ALL* your sgs at once ;).

No one else has something to say about my dotmap? If so, I'll finish this off either tomorrow morning or tonight and follow my dotmap.

@Yom: Of course I did not notice that you had not finished your turns. :) As for the dot map I am unsure since I have not seen the entire map yet. I have not had the chance to open the the save yet.

Roster for everybody's convinience:

Greebley
Arizona_Steve
Mark1031
Grahamiam
Yom -----> Playing
betazed -------> On deck

@foresight: If you are still there, you can join this game. 7 players is one more than usual but IMHO it is beneficial for all to see new players playing with different game styles etc. Let me know if you are still interested.

@betazed: What you see is basically all the land we have left to settle. I'm going to finish my turns now and settle the black dot 2 N of Cattagarus. It only has 2 tiles overlap with Salamanca (the same as Cattagarus) so, hopefully, it won't affect Cattagarus' corruption.

I like your dot map Yom. For the two dots next to one another, I would go for the one that grabs the fish.

I would be very agressive on building culture in the cities closest to the Sumerian city. If we can keep ahead in culture we will claim more tiles and have a less flip chance because of it.

Turn 7 - Continued. Move Settler SE. I will found the city next
turn. Hopefully, it won't increase Cattagarus' distance corruption.

IBT - The Arab settler pair turns around and tries to get back into
our lands.

Turn 8 - I unfortify our warrior and try to pass through Byzantine
lands. If he gets kicked out again, I would send him East to help
out his counterpart.
Begin hooking up our incense.
Found St. Regis. Set to a warrior.
The Arabs got Mathematics this turn. If we could get Philosophy
or MapMaking, there might be a deal to be had, but we're too poor
at the moment.
I up the lux tax to 40% for one turn to keep Salamanca happy (it
only has 1 MP atm).

IBT - Arab settler pair retreats.
Sumerian Archer/Settler pair appears.
Salamanca:Settler->Spearman.
Niagra Falls:Barracks->Spearman (maybe swap to Swordsman
when road completes or something else).
Allegheny:worker->Temple (also vetoable).

Turn 9 - Lower lux tax to 20% for now. I do some tile swapping
b/w Cattaraugus and Salamanca to get the spearman in 2 (needs a
mined BG since it is size 4).

IBT - We get kicked out of Byzantine lands again. So much for the
western route.
Grand River:Worker->Temple (also vetoable, we don't have
currency or literature yet, so there's not much infrastructure to
build)
Mauch Chunk:Worker->Worker

Turn 10 - Up lux tax to 30% to keep Salamanca happy.
I send our Western worker to go the Eastern route.
No luck on finding more civs with the curragh. Maybe I should
have sent it westward.
The next player may want to swap Niagra falls or Mauch Chunk to
a curragh to explore the Byzantine coast, since there might be
another civ lurking somehwere there.
We are not that far behind for Sid level and might not need TGL,
though it would definitely be helpful. The palace comes in 34
turns (300shields right now) and lit comes in 40. That's without
any worker/settler joins. I would keep our workers improving
Cattaraugus' tiles and only join them if it's necessary. Right now it
looks like we can keep our workers. Incense will be online in 4
turns.

Here's a brief tech overview.
Arabs:up WC, Polytheism, Math
Incans:up WC, Math, Philosophy, Map Making
Byzantines:up WC, Math, Philosophy, Map Making
Babylonians:up WC
Hittites: up WC, Math, Philosophy, Map Making
Sumerians:up WC, Math, Philosophy.

As you can see, there are some deals to be made. Unfortunately,
we don't have nearly enough money. All our gold is 'almost' for
philosophy and 'insulted' for Map Making.

Too late Greebley. I went with the other one, mainly because it's not closer to Salamanca than Cattaraugus. It might have been a mistake, but it ensures that we get TGL quicker.

Btw, does anyone know how many cities we have to build before the Palace costs 400 Shields?

Maintaining cultural supremacy in the Sumerian cities is an impossibility IMO. All of their border cities already have temples up and will get very early culture doublings. The sumerians and babylonians are notorious for their culture-building. We shouldn't have more than 1 or 2 tiles of overlap though. With the exception of the Sumerian encroachment in the North and Tonawanda.

Ok. I see I am up. However, I am also up in three other SGs that I have to catch up.

Greebley, want to swap your turn with me this time? You can go first and then I can take it up. Otherwise I will probably be able to play this day after.

Greebley ------> On Deck?
Arizona_Steve
Mark1031
Grahamiam
Yom -----> Just Played
betazed -------> Up?

Ya, I can do that. I don't have a game lined up for tonight.

The city in the picture didn't have a border increase yet, it had just settled. I was thinking if we got our temple up first we might be able to stay ahead.

Both spots were pretty good, so I don't think your choice was a problem.

Oh, you mean Kuara. Yeah, we should probably build a temple in St. Regis.

Great. So the roster is

Greebley ------> Up
Arizona_Steve
Mark1031
Grahamiam
Yom -----> Just Played
betazed -------> On Deck

Early: Settle two towns on Yoms dot map. Block the settlers. Incease spending in lit as we may it sooner rather than later.
Kuara easily beats us to the town expansion.

Mid: Settle another of Yom's dots

Late: I am keeping our Capitol on settlers. The reason is that I wanted to get to the 400 shield palace so we don't have to slow down our prebuild by 6 turns.
I went for temples. I would like to get some Culture given the crowding.

Notes:
We have 2 potential city sites. Both are crowded but getting our palace to up would save us 6 turns on the GLib.

I hit enter in 1250 BC to make sure, but the wonder cascade has been broken! This is excellent news for us. Even if the AI demands Lit from us, they won't have a "prebuild" to cascade to the Library.

Right Now our Palace build is in 16 but we get Lit in 22. That is why I want to build more cities. As Yom mentioned our current palace is 300 shields. If it was 400 shields the palace (and GLib) would finish in 28 turns instead of 16. If the new cities do not help, then we need to slow the palace build to match the research speed of lit. I am running 80% science. . The 80% rate pruned 7 turns off the science build. It was probably unnecessary if we can get the 400 shield palace, and absolutely vital if we cannot. Problem is that I have no idea if three more towns will give it to us. I am worried that it will not as it only gets us to 15. We may want to squeeze in a 16th town in willy-nilly anyway as that will allow the FP and may be the magic number for a palace size increase as well.

I wasn't able to trade techs even at full gold when I checked. We need to meet more Civs to do that. With the cascade broken though, I am hopeful we won't need to trade for techs after all.

Here is a picture of where I was thinking of sqeezing in the 3 cities. One is the last point on Yoms map. The next steals land from Sumeria, and the final fills a gap. It is tight, but we may need to do it for the FP and for an earlier GLib.

Note that if the palace does go to 400 shields, I would then send the workers to speed up the building of the GLib to occur as soon after we get Lit as possible. I would do worker merging but remember that may slow down the speed we get Lit so do it carefully. The AI may get Lit or feudalism and start a build that could compete on any turn.

If we need a 4th city, I would try putting it on the east coast.

As for the new cities, I would build the fishing village on my S. black dot. Normally I would build the Fishing village on your W. Red dot, but for some reason there's no sea buffer in between the coast and ocean. Your fishing villlage will only really get 5 unique coastal tiles and 2 shared ones.

Do we really need to cram in the cities like that? The new city in between Cattaraugus and Grand river doesn't claim any tiles other than the tile it's founded on.

The southern red dot is just a flip waiting to happen and a very agressive site.

IMHO, getting the palace up to 400 shields is not so crucial. We're still 22 turns away from lit, and thus the AI can't demand lit from us until the prebuild is around 300 shields.

In a worst-case scenario (other than the AI researching it themselves) we only have to build 100 shields before an AI city builds 180, which is actually easily done, since Cattaraugus has like 12 BGs that can be mined + a forest and hill.

A fishing village on the east coast actually wouldn't be a bad idea, if not a bit cramped.

If we really need to get the palace up to 400 shields, why not just build 2 extra cities (other than the East coast and W. Coast fishing villages) the turn before the palace prebuild finishes (if we're sure that it will increase the cost) and disband them (preferably by building a worker) as soon as we get lit?

i looked in the editor and I cannot find the flag that links the cost of the palace to the number of cities. i'm probably missing something obvious but I can't see it with my bleary eyes past midnight.

Catta will have 9 BG's with the new city to it's SE so, getting her up to 12 pop and working all those tiles is possible. however, if we can do that before lit is discovered by increasing the # of shields required to build the palace, then we can get the GLib even faster, pulling us closer to the AI wrt to techs. imho, greebly's tactic feels right. i have no problem with tightly packed cities and I don't think greebly's layout is too bad. then again, i'm biased as i tend to do tight builds when cornered like this.

Sorry guys, I could not/will not be able to get to this tonight. Will definitely play by tomorrow night.

A critical misfortune has fallen on my family and I have to go away for a while, do not know how long. :( I am extremely sorry that I have to leave like this. Please skip me indefinitely.

I request that you please do not abandon this game. Continue without me and someone please take up the roster.

Best of luck to you Betazed, in your times of troubles. We will keep the game alive (and maybe even get a win?? Nah thats crazy talk :D ) while you are gone. I hope things work out as best they can for you.

hope it all works out for you and yours, Betazed. take care.

I think this is the situation:

Greebley
Arizona_Steve - UP!
Mark1031 - ON DECK
Grahamiam
Yom
betazed - on Indefinite skip
Foresight?

(0) 1225BC
So we have the Palace due in 16 and Literature due in 22. I'm going to leave things as they are for now, and see if the next two settlers are enough to increase the number of shields for the Palace.

(2) 1175BC
Kahnawake founded. No change in the Palace construction time.
Three Inca galleys are moving around our shores. I hope they're not planning on starting a war.

(4) 1125BC
Temples whipped at Grand River and Allegheny (both were 19 shields to completion).
Two settlers are in place. I moved one of the dots so that I can secure a second source of iron for us.

(5) 1100BC
Caughnawaga and Oka are founded. Palace remains at 9 turns. I slow it's build to 16 turns (Literature due in 15).

(6) 1075BC
I hire a single scientist in Cattaraugus and am able to reduce research time to Literature to 11 turns.
Bad news. Bablylon and Hittites begin the Great Library.

(7) 1050BC
Scientist hired in Salamanca. Palace build time reduced to 8 turns.
We make contact with the final civ, Germany. Despite having six cities, they are so insanely backward that we are ahead of them by Pottery and Alphabet (they do have Warrior code however, but they started with that).
Inca start the Great Library.
And in what can only be awesome news for us, I see the Arabs and the Sumarians going at each others' throats. Yep, they are at war [dance] [dance]

(8) 1025BC
I get two warriors into Oka for defence. I was a little worried about the number of Enkidus around the city. That was before they started beating up Arabs.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/BZ9-975BC.jpg

The Save File - 975BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/BZ9-975BC.zip)

Good turns, but since the other AI have TGL now, we need really build up Cattaraugus. I would move ALL our nearby workers there (basically anything that takes <10 turns to get there). Also, I would Swap Salamanca to a settler. Pop out 2 or 3 of those and join them into Cattaraugus. and mine all of the BGs around it. It has 12 in its 21 and it's sitting on one, so we should get a lot of production from it (26 shields before corruption). Our prebuild is worth about 240 shields, which is only the same as the Sid discout.

Basically, we have a level playing field with all civs building TGL. The way to win the race is by pumping settlers and workers into Cattaraugus and raising the lux tax to get it to about 20 uncorrupted shields. It is essential that we do this if we want to win the race, as our prebuild isn't as much as an advantage as it seems.

got it. will pull out all stops to get the GL

Ya, I would even wake up workers if need be. The GLib will gain us enough to make up for the loss. After the 4? turns to Lit we switch to the GLib and join in workers (keep an eye on unhappiness - too high might cause problems) and make sure the lands are improved. I think we can get it this way We have 100 shields to go after that, so it may be very close.

I think we can keep Cattaraugus happy at size 12. Incense + 2MP makes 4 content faces by itself (including the first citizen). Cattaraugus should make around 20-24 gold after corruption, so we need about 40% lux tax. I think we can sustain this and it is surely worth assuring our building of TGL.

Did we get to 16 towns? [Edit: I count 15] If not, build the last one. That way we have the FP to fall back on if we miss the GLib. I would simply pick the least crowded spot on the coast to do so. It can be a fishing village.

I would change the Barracks in Salamanca to build one final settler first for this reason.

We should probably build the Fishing village 2 NE or 1 N, 1 NE of Allegheny. The former has 1 tile overlap with a sumerian city while the latter has more overlap with Oil Springs.

I think we can still get the GL if we send all our workers to improve Cattaraugus and immediately join in a settler (from swapping Salamanca to a settler from the barracks) and then join in some workers. Remember, we're basically on an even playing field here. As long as Cattaraugus can produce more shields per turn than the leading AI city, we're bound to get it, thanks to our prebuild.

Also, I have a question on the city placement. Why did we place Kahnawake where we did? The city has 6 2nd ring tiles that are ocean tiles. They produce 0 food, 0 shields, and 0 trade. IMHO, I believe we should have settled my black dot. It only has 3 ocean tiles in its second ring and just as much overlap.

I am afraid that was a weed on my part Yom. I was following your dot map, but when I made the picture of where the settlers were going, I somehow pointed the arrow to the wrong place. It was intended to be the same as what you posted. Maybe we can move it after we get it.

------------

[Edit: Actually looking at where I place the cities, I was just totally off. I don't know how I did so poorly considering I was trying to follow your plan.

Looking at the map, I misplaced Centralia, and then switched the city from one side to the other because of it (without realizing I was doing so). I apologize for messing it up...

Note: we lost the GL to Persia by 4 turns :mad: . I did the best I could merging a settler and workers. We do not have enough cities for the FP. I got disgusted and stopped but will finish tonight. We will be in a deep Tech hole ala AG12. What do you think. Switch temples to libraries? Prepare for war? I don't know where Persia is but it must be a long way so I doubt if a GL capture is possible.

imho, libraries would be a waste. i'd rather have temples and markets so we can begin harvesting money for steals and deals (temples now, markets when we get currency). and yes, we should prepare for war, especially since everyone still has swords and spears. maybe the arabs or sumerians will give us a tech for an alliance vs the other?

Ya, markets are best I think.

I am kicking myself for not making the suggestion of 16 towns more prominent at the end of my turns. If the palace jumps to 400 shield at 16 cities, then we could have gotten the GLib by building that last city right away. If the palace is still 300 shields at 16 cities then we were probably doomed.

Greebley I'm not sure it would have made the difference to extend the palace size. We were 4 turns away @ size 10 using all improved BG. If I would have used the settler from Sala to found a city I still couldn't have improved the tiles faster or added pop to the city sooner. It might have worked if all the BG tiles were improved and the workers/settlers were ready to add immediately. We'll see how this plays out but it's the third Sid SG that has lost the GL leading to a deep tech hole. The GL is hugely important on Sid and it seems to take a really early and focused effort to obtain even starting with alphabet.

No it would have had to of been during Steves turn when we had to purposefully slow down our growth rate to get Lit before we hit 300 shields. If the palace was 400 at that time we could have gotten the wonder fairly easily. Problem is we still don't know how many towns that would have required (to get the 400 pt palace), and no other civ had started the GLib back then so we didn't know there was a threat.

I like to analyze "Could we have done it a different way and succeeded?" which may or may not be helpful for future games. Sometimes you guess wrong.

Knowing at what city count the palace grows would actually be a very useful thing to know. Then we would have known if adding more towns would be useful. Anyone ever seen a post on it? Or know how to extract the information from the editor or data files? I am guessing it is in relation to the OCN for the map which is the major reason I thought 16 might be a cut-off.

Pre : Switch Trond ->settler. Centraila temple->worker Grand River temple ->worker

950BC-850BC Stop all workers near Cattaraugus not working on that city and get them moving there. Add a few scientists to get Lit in 1 less turn. Add in settler and 2 workers to be working 10 mined BG as soon as Lit comes in but… Persians Complete the GL in 850 BC. We had 4 turns to go-- bummer.

850 Lit + 57 gp to Arabs for Philo. Alphabet to Germany for WC. Writing to Germany for HBR. Adjust a few things and Get CoL from Sumeria for 107 gp and 42 gpt. We are broke. Start min. sci on Republic. Switch a few river cities from rax/temple-> granary for more rapid growth.

825 : Inca demand 12gp. I cave.

800: Meet the Maya. Up all visible techs except republic.

775: Byz Demand 3gp. Gladly.

750: zzzz

Summary: Well the loss of the GL is a real disaster. I somewhat mortgaged our economy to get us at least working on republic ASAP. Quite a few known civs still lack republic but I’m sure that won’t last 50 turns. Things to our advantage: I noticed evidence of quite a few wars. The Sumarians lack both iron and horses. We could trade or exploit this in war, I favor the latter after we build up enough MW and get to republic for a GA. Also, we have at least 1 potential trading partner, the Germans are more backward than us so watch for deals there. I didn’t build the last city for the FP. We don’t have much corruption at the moment and will have less after republic so it wasn’t a huge issue. In 16 turns we get back 42gpt. In 46 turns we get to republic. I’d say we build up cash and military during this time, try a steal preferably from some small distant civ and then try a quick war with Sumeria to get a little extra space and some techs.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/BZ9-750BC.zip

Help: can't attach file. it tells me there's a 500kb limit and this is like 550 zipped. Have you had this before?
Use the easy upload dystem in the bottom of the screen. :)

Help: can't attach file. it tells me there's a 500kb limit and this is like 550 zipped. Have you had this before?

go to this thread to learn how to upload via the cfc server (this is what ankka was refering to) -> http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=55122 things are slightly different now but you should be able to muddle thru it. i can also send you an email so you can bounce the save to me that way if desired.

Going for republic ASAP sounds correct to me. I wonder if it is worth trying to steal it?

Here is another option. War vs Sumeria. More land will strengthen our position. We could get the Arabs on our side.

Have we built that 16th city for the FP yet? That will also help our economy.

You'd commented that knowing Palace costs would be useful. I just found a link to a thread on that....

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=909828#post909828

There was some question of its accuracy, but it all looks good. Twas a PTW test, not a C3C test, so it may have changed, but I'd tend to doubt it.

Arathorn

OK I figured out the attachment issue so the file is now there. We will have no $$ for 16 more turns but then we should accumulate for a steal. I might just let rep complete and try to steal math and currency. I'm not sure what the steal costs will be on a huge map but they are dependent on civ size so hopefully we meet a small and very distant civ. Keep an eye on Germany. We are up several techs on them but they could research MM or math and we could get a deal.

Thanks Arathorn :)

I think that means we needed 24 cities and were doomed no matter what we did on the GLib. Ah we did.

I may also be wrong on the 16 cities for Huge. It might be 18 which I don't think we can get to. I would have bet good money that the OCN for huge was 32 and lost - MattG looked it up in another thread and it was 36. (I wonder if it used to be 32 once? It has been a while since I played on huge.)

Given my low batting average: It is true that the FP message comes at 1/2 the OCN, right?

thanks mark, link looks good :) will get to this tomorrow night.

are we agreed to prepare for an early fight? i see many barracks/temple builds were changed to graneries so I'm not sure what the focus is right now. i realize the graneries will speed growth to get us more cash but it will also delay our unit production.

Well I went with growth first in all the river cities as they can grow big before construction. I think this will be well worth it. We have really nice land and should use all of it ASAP. We will need a fairly large amount of military to defend such a large front against a Sid AI also I think it would be best to wait for GA until republic IMO. OTOH we will need to strike before sumeria has gunpowder.

I think the Mil route is best. We have two AI next to us so can MA to get half the units off our back. They also already warred so may be weaker.

first, the 550BC zipped save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/BZ9-550BC.zip)

Preflight check: We have a settler/spear pair and I have no idea where mark wanted to put them. Try to move them and then realize that they’re an Incan settler/spear pair :lol:

Cities are in good order. Cattar can do 16spt so that’s an MW every other turn. Many other MW’s are being built as well. Many civ’s are Republics so they are really gonna really start pulling away from us now.

IBT: already, the game is starting to run slow between turns. Arabs demand we leave. Sumerian now has a ton of troops in our lands. Not very good looking here. Maya ask us to leave.
Sala MW-> MW

T1: 730BC Rotate warrior out of Catta to Caughnawaga to lessen temptation to AI. Move vet sword to Cata to maintain happiness. Germans still don’t know anything.

IBT: Sumerians track down the Inca spear/settler pair and kill it. However, they keep moving units into our territory.
Catta barracks -> MW
Sumerians’ are building Sun’s, Byz are building Leonardo’s

T2: 710BC Meet the Persians. With no gold in our pockets and no tech’s, I just smile :)

Grand River granary -> barracks; St Regis barracks -> MW; Tyendenaga temple -> worker; Kahnawake worker -> worker
Zulu’s finish Sun’s

T3: 690BC Meet the Greeks. They are up Math, MM, and Poly but down CoL. The only deal available is Math for CoL. Done. Bismark: “I know nothing, nothing!”

IBT: Sala: MW -> MW; Niagra Falls MW -> MW; Allegany barracks -> MW; Catta MW -> MW; Akwes temple -> barracks;
Persians are building Leonardo’s & Knights Templar

T4: 670BC

IBT: Tona temple -> barracks; Mongols have completed Leonardo’s Workshop and Persians complete Knights Templar

T5: 650BC Meet Egypt, they are up Poly but down Writing, Math, and HBR but have no money either. I get Poly for Writing and HBR. Bismark still knows nothing.

IBT: Catta MW -> MW; Oil Springs MW -> MW

T6: 630BC Egypt has some cash so I trade Philosphy to her for 155g. Build an Embassy in Sumeria and they have incense and silks, are building archers. Suprisingly, only 4 EW’s, 3 trebuchets, and 1 archer guard the city. Germans are still lagging.

IBT: Sala MW -> MW; Mauch Chunk riots (damn); Caugh barracks -> MW

T7: 610BC MM Sala to do 15spt.

GR barracks -> MW

T8: 590BC Nada, no trades available. Well, I could buy an Egyptian worker for CoL’s but I thought that I’d hold off.

IBT: Hittites demand 25g and Babylon demands 24g; Sala MW -> MW; Niagra falls MW -> MW; Allegany MW -> MW; St. Regis MW -> MW
Persians are building Sistine’s

T9: 570BC Check for deals but none available. If we were to ally with Sumeria vs. the Arabs, we could get about 150g for our trouble but no tech’s. It already costs around 2000g to do a safe steal on the Sumerians.

IBT: Cattar MW -> MW; Sumerians seem to be moving about 25 EW’s to fortify in Kuara.

T10: 550BC landscaping.

edit: note, you can MM a mined BG between Cattar and St. Regis to speed up St. Regis' MW build and keep doing an MW every 2T. However, I was mining a river grass so this will not be necessary soon.

Workers NW of Sala were intented for Niagra Falls to begin improving the land there.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/BZ9-550BC.JPG

I think I would rather ally with the Arabs vs sumeria. It is the tougher fight, but we get land that is more useful to us.

I'll be away on a trip starting tomorrow, 7/16, and won't be back until 7/23 or later. Since I'm not exactly sure how long the trip will last, I'll let you know when I'm back. I won't have computer access most of the time, so I won't be able to take part in a lot of the discussion.

Have fun Yom :) Since I have a trip startin the 24th I won't see you until August.

Good work on taking advantage of the trade opportunities, grahamiam. Without the GLib we do well to keep close enough to the AI to make tech deals.

Yom, I assume you will be too busy to play before you leave. If now speak now... Foresight, did you want to play? It looks like there is room now. If so post an "I got it" as you would be up. If you are no longer interested, then I will take it tomorrow.

[Edit: Given that Foresight had to quit another SG due to time, I am assuming he can't play right now. So I got it but won't be able to play until tomorrow]

Greebley Up
Mark1031 On Deck
Grahamiam - Just played
Yom - Away until the 23rd
betazed - on Indefinite skip
Foresight - Not in the game, but showed interest and could be added.

i'm away on July 16 and 17th partying. will be away on business on the 19th thru 23rd. not sure about internet access during the business trip. will check in if possible. hope i don't miss this massive scrum :)

Preturn: I don't like Sumeria sending all these units through our territory. They all have attacks 1 so I tell them to leave. Suprisingly, they do. So no war yet. It is likely during my turns though. In fact they will probably march right back in. I switch some builds to defensive units. Defense is better vs Enkidu.

IBT: Positive signs they are still at war with the Arabs which is good. That is the primary reason to attack early.

530 BC: This time when I tell them to leave they do declare war.

IBT: Milling about by the enemy.

510 BC: Capture Zabalam. I switch over a town to a settler to replace it.

IBT: A few attacks on some Mounted Warrior. A bit of pillaging.

490 BC: My next goal is to get rid of Kuara, the city in the back lands. I have to kill a stack of Enkidu that went toward that town when they were ordered out first.

I had some idea that I could get Byzantine to ally against Sumeria, but the price was Huge (67 gpt + gold).

470 BC: Yow, Yow Yow! We get our first Leader! I go for a sword army.
I get an ROP with Arabia so my units can pass through his lands. They are stuck.

IBT: The greatest threat is pillaging. our fringes are being pillaged.

450 BC: Poor round on attack. Lose a few Mounted warriors.

IBT: The stacks are entering our territory.

430 BC: A second poor round in a row. Our sword army is redlined attacking an Enkidu on the flat. We will be pillaged more because of this.

410 BC: I get leader Number Two! Another army I think I go for the Mounted warrior army this time.

390 BC: Much better round this time. I have finally driven back the Enkidu to Kuara

370 BC: Kill some archers and move on Kuarra.

350 BC: I attack Kuarra with the Mounted Warrior Army. The sword army moves into position to attack next round.

Notes:
So we discussed war and I decided to go with it. It worked out fairly nicely. We have two armies and seem secure against the Sumerians. After Kuarra is Razed (Niagra Falls is building the replacement settler), I bring the armies south and then use them to go on the offensive. Lets try to take a good bit of Sumerian land. We have killed most of the Enkidu they started with. The ONLY two units I have seen are archers and Enkidu. It is likely they don't have horses or Iron.

We are behind in tech by a good bit. Copernicus was built. The techs were too expensive and there weren't really good deals. There is now a 2 for 1 as Greece has Map Making and Currency, but not the rest (and a 3 for 1 if we could get Republic. We are also head of Egypt by code of laws and ahead of Germany by alot. I kept hoping egypt would pick up a tech we didn't have but no luck.

We could probably buy construction and trade it for Currency. It is really pricey, but we may want to do it.
Construction would cost us 61 gpt + most of our 531 gold. I held off to discuss with team.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BZ9-350BC.zip)

I appear to have been dropped from the list above, but I know I'm after Greebley. Consider this a "Got it"...

Greebley - Just Played
Arizona_Steve - Playing now
Mark1031 - On Deck
Grahamiam
Yom - Away until the 23rd
betazed - on Indefinite skip
Foresight - Not in the game, but showed interest and could be added.

Appologies Arizona Steve for missing you :blush:

Ya, you are up :) Good luck with the war. I am hoping we can capture some Sumerian cities and make the despot GA worthwhile (and to do so before Sumeria can build real units).

I realized after playing, that I made one big mistake. I should have checked if we could have gotten republic faster at Max research as soon as we entered the GA. Republic would have been a powerful tool for buying techs (and at least a 3 fer) and much better than the "buy construction and currency for 61 gpt", that I suggest. Ah well.

My main reason for wanting construction and currency is to be able to get markets and aquaducts more quickly during the GA in at least some towns. We can slip them in between mounted warrior builds. I think if we build some, we would be able to afford the 61 gpt after our GA ends.

I agree wtih making the deal. Will it get us to the MA so we can possibly get one of the MA techs from Sumeria in the peace. Even if not I think we should do the deal to get those 2 important builds going. Also, sumeria lacks iron and horses. I think we should keep the war going until we see muskets. They may just crumble.

(0) 350BC
A war with the Sumarians. I've never warred at Sid level, so I'm not sure what to expect.
I'm going to go ahead with the Construction/Currency trade, as both are critical techs. A few marketplaces should start to make up for the shortfall and give us a cash cushion when we come out of our Golden Age. 531 gold + 60 gold/turn goes to Arabia for Construction. Construction gets us Currency + 2 gold from the Greeks. We still make 13 gold/turn.
I kill a Longbow with a Mounted Warrior from Borderton. Killing any others would leave our troops exposed.

(1) 330BC
A newly completed Catapult takes a hitpoint off an Enkidu next to St Regis, and a Mounted Warrior finished him off.
Remove one Enkidu and two Longbows from the South, and gain an additional elite Mounted Warrior.
Our swordsman army is at full strength and he removes a veteran and a regular Enkidu at Kuara. A Mounted Warrior takes out the third Enkidu and Kuara is burned to the ground. Now where's the settler. Dammit, there isn't one and none are being built. Niagara Falls can complete one this turn so it is switched.
New units are moved South for the assault on the Sumarian core, except one Swordsman who is moved into Maunch Chunk to avoid a riot there.

IBT
The Inca very kindly remove a Summarian Galley for us.
Summaria requests an audience. I think we can put more hurt on them.

(2) 310BC
Summaria actually gets a decent number of troops to the front this time, and I will not be able to dispose of all of them this turn. Three Mounted warriors cannot even take ONE hitpoint off an Enkidu (two retreat, one dies), so I leave a swordsman exposed to Longbow attack during the interturn. Nothing I can do there.

IBT
Amazing. All those Sumarian units near Borderton retreat, save for one Longbow who redlines, kills our Swordsman and promotes.

(3) 290BC
I get our first catapult into Borderton and redline the Longbow with it. I bring out a 4/5 elite Mounted Warrior and get my first Leader of the turn. He wanders into Borderton and forms Army #3. I load two swordsmen into it (Swordsmen armmies are preferable due to better defence, and the fact that they move at the same speed as single Mounted Warriors). Next leader will rush the Pentagon.
I note that we're paying substantial amounts in unit support, so I disband most of our regular Warriors.

IBT
Summarian troops reappear near Borderton.

(4) 270BC
I take out three Longbows and an Enkidu. We have a lot of units about to reach Borderton next turn, and this should make the city safe.

IBT
Once again the Summarian troops move away from Borderton.

(5) 250BC
I've started placing a few Catapults around our shoreline to take pot-shots at passing Galleys. I've noticed that if a hitpoint is taken off a Galley, it will be attacked by the Incans and the Arabs. Full health Galleys will not be attacked.

IBT
An Inca Galley sinks a Summarian Galley, then lands a Pikeman on a hill between Salamanca and Niagara Falls.
In another part of the world, the Egyptions and the Babylonians are beating the crap out of each other.

(6) 230BC
Gandasetaigon is founded on the ruins of Kuara (it's on a river).
I kill a lone Enkidu in our territory with the Mounted Warrior Army.
I hand over Construction and Currency to Egypt for Monarchy. Monarchy goes to Greece for Map Making (he refuses to sell Republic) and we enter the Middle Ages. Everybody but the Germans, Greeks and Egyptians are up all visible Middle Age techs. Egypt does not have Map Making, and Greece only has Republic and Engineering, so there might be deals to be swung there.

IBT
Byzantines declare war on the Inca. A pity, as the Inca were doing such a good job of mopping up Summarian Galleys.

(7) 210BC
Cattaraugus gets two spears, but I will wait a turn before moving the scientist to Salamanca (which grew to size 11 last turn) as there is a Mounted Warrior passing through there.
Only one Summarian Enkidu is visible, so I decide to go on the offensive. I move the two Swordsman srmies and all available Mounted Warriors out of Borderton to begin the offensive. There are a good number of swordsmen and catapults left in Borderton to defend.

IBT
I see lots of Summarian units running around like headless chickens.
The Heroic Epic completes at Salamanca.

(8) 190BC
Move an attack force up to Marad.

IBT
Inca decides to sneak-attack us. Damn.
The Zulu establish an embassy with us.

(9) 170BC
I'm able to dislodge the Inca pikeman that was about to pillage a mined incense hill without losing any troops (one Mounted Warrior Retreats). Fortunately the Inca are far away and they will take some time to get to us. Plus they're also at war with Byzantine and will probably get burned up by Dromons.
It looks like we have some war happiness, so I push Luxury tax down to 10%. Salamanca needs an Entertainer, but there is an additional Spearman on the way. Scientist is switched to Borderton for one turn.
We meet Russia. They have Fuedalism and Engineering, and opens up a three-fer with Greece and some other civ with all the first level Middle Ages techs. No chance right now, but hopefully the deal will still be there once we get a few marketplaces up.
The battle of Marad begins as the two swordsman armies take out four Enkidus with relatively little effort. A Mounted Warrior kills off the last longbow there and Marad is razed. We get five slaves. Tonawanda is immediately switched over to a settler. A road is pillaged to prevent a counter-attack from the Summarians.

IBT
Sumaria brings up a good number of longbows and Enkidus. They also land an Enkidu on the hill between Salamanca and Niagara Falls.
Zulu begin Newton's University?? Umm guys, we're a little behind in tech.

(10) 150BC
I leave the Enkidu near Salamanca alone as he will have to move off the hill onto flat territory next turn. But I do move a Mounted Warrior and a Spearman into Salamanca and position a couple of Catapults to lob rocks at him next turn.
To the South, I defeat at least ten assorted Enkidus and Longbows with no losses (a couple of retreats though).
Scientist is shifted from Borderton to Salamanca.

Notes:
I have no idea how long war happiness lasts. It will end at some point and luxuries will need to go back to 20%.
Don't worry about the Inca. They have to get through Byzantine to get to us. It's a phoney war that we may want to end quickly, and certainly before we switch to Republic.
Next leader has a choice of Pentagon or Forbidden Palace. I'd go Pentagon first, then place the Forbidden Palace somewhere South of Borderton once we raze a few more cities.
Watch out for the three-fer tech deal I mentioned above. Buy Monotheism from anyone who has it. Russia and Greece both lack Monotheism, but have the other two techs.
The Zulu are probably in the Industrial Age. Not looking good for catch-up.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BZ9-150BC.jpg

The Save File - 150BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BZ9-150BC.zip)

Well played Steve. I am really glad you were able to get us to the middle ages.

Hmm... I also switched Niagra over to a settler. I must have done that after saving rather than before. :rolleyes:

I agree on the Sword Army. They are generally much better. I wanted one fast one which we already have (the mounted warrior army).

If we can stay an age behind the leaders, then I think we are doing ok for SID. It will mean we have Artillery before they launch which is always good :D.

I think heading to Cavalry before Education is a good idea too. It allows for a GLib capture if we really need it. If we are keeping up, however, then this is not necessary.

Lets establish and embassy with Persia. I don't even see them on the map. Their capitol is where the GLib is.

[edit:
Rembember the Golden Age is ending soon! I wouldn't spend cash. You may want to raise Lux the turn it ends to save us from riots.

BTW, I believe war happiness lasts until it is eroded away by war weariness. Since Inca will be involved with the Byzantines, it probably won't go away. The only danger is if the Inca ally someone against us.

Greebley, I think war happiness expires when cancelled by war weariness (30 points IIRC) or 20 turns, whichever comes first. 80% sure this is correct :)

Interesting. Ya learn something new every day. Thanks Tarkeel, that is good to know.

got it............

Greebley, I think war happiness expires when cancelled by war weariness (30 points IIRC) or 20 turns, whichever comes first. 80% sure this is correct :)

Are you sure about this? It shouldn't go away by itself when you are at war (i.e. the 20-turn expiration).

As I said, 80% sure.. But that's going by an old article I read, and not sure if I remember correctly. I am pretty sure it does go away though. I should check it out sometime..

i'll likely need a skip for this one this week. my work laptop will pretty much choke on this and i dread downloading a 600kb file over the hotel's dialup. sorry, i was really looking forward to this war :(

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BZ9-50AD.SAV

Pre. Switch all pult/sword builds. With MW and 3 armies vs spears they will just slow us down.

130: Advance Armies on Agade. Kill a few scattered units. No losses. Persia starts Newton’s. Meet Mongols. Up all visible.

IT: Our GA ends. Sala riots and gets an entertainer. Hire scientist in Grand Rivers. That’s it but also take the opportunity to disband all reg warriors. And switch a few cities to settlers to fill in concurred territory. We are @ -18gpt.

110: Advance on Agade. Fend off troops at Allagheny. Lose 1 MW

90: Continue toward Agade. Kill a couple of LBs. Merge some native workers to save $$.

70: Take Agade with Armies and couple of MWs no loses. Sala Market->settler.

50 Byzantines demand 24 and get it.

30: Take ----. Found Ganogeh. Persia wants 22, I guess so. Zulu completes Newtons. Inca land Pike MI pair near Tonawanda. Take out pike/ retreat on MI but spear survives attack. We get FP notice.

10 Take Kisurra Found Gayagaahe. Inca Buy in Germany against us.

10 Move troops

30 Get leader attacking LB and use it to build FP in Ganogeh .

50: Oh Oh. Sumerians now have muskets. Kill a few LBs and bombard Sumer. No hits so I hold off for the next leader to decide what to do. Get a leader killing a LB. Could be used for Pentagon or Army.

We still cannot get a full tech for peace but can get a good discount. I’d really like to have the silks at Sumer. Also, I wouldn’t make peace until we get the open space colonized in a couple turns, see pic for suggested locations. Arabs lack Engineering so we should be able to get some deal. Also, we can gift Germany into the MA and trade for whatever tech they get. Still haven’t met the Dutch but can buy this contact to see where they stand. I don’t think we can keep up the war vs Muskets. However I notice the Arabs also lack iron and horses so we might switch to them and try to get their silks. Before hitting enter you should decide because we are paying for military and you might want to switch some military builds that are due to complete if we will not continue at war.

We are looking pretty strong :hammer: Well played.

I think we should continue the war a bit longer. Attack 3 armies should be able to handle Muskets. Given that armies heal in enemy territory now, we can just rest until healed then attack again.

[Edit:
I definitely would like to take Sumer and Umma - more if we can get it.

We are going to get Republic in 7; that and the FP will really boost our economy, I think.

[Edit2:
Part of me want to own the entire peninsula up to the choke near Byzantium.]

I just gotta say that this SG is so awesome. I have to give you all credit for taking on the three things in Civ3 that I have absolutely no patience for -- Sid level, the huge map, and a space race (God willing on that last one).
:hatsoff:
I don't know what you're talking about in your last post, Greebley. You know full well that you're going to take over the whole Arabian penninsula at some point. All that desert is your best chance for petrol! (Does saying that make me evil?)

But all those warrior disbands! Sirian must be rolling over in his grave! :crazyeye: But then, the reason I never took on Sid was that all the rules change. How else could you end up with the Pentagon before a Forbidden Palace?

I hope to remember to keep an eye on this one. It'll be interesting reading over the next 3-9 months (depending on how your luck holds out). :lol:

The reason I worded my comment that way, Ben, was entirely due to the original proposal of keeping the game pseudo-passive (no war unless needed).

However, I feel we do "need" more land to compete. Do we need the whole peninsula? Maybe. I am not so attached to the passive part that I wouldn't want to take the peninsula as I am more attached to winning. I would rather err on the side of claiming land given this is all new ground for me.

Greebley - Has a vacation July24 to Aug8
Arizona_Steve
Mark1031 - Just Played
Grahamiam - Up
Yom - Away until the 23rd

So Grahamiam is up!

Hopefully I am correct this time...

Well both Zulu and Persians are in the IA so we have a long way to go. We have really put the :hammer: on Sumeria but still can't get 1 full tech. I don't know why it's so hard to pound a tech out of them/ our kill ratio has also been exe\cellent. I think GL capture will prove to be a no go and we'd be better off heading for Banks ASAP. Also we need to get tech leaders at each others throats soon to slow this down.

I just noticed Grahamiam's message above about problems with his computer. That would make me up. Got it then.

Not back yet, but I just have to say. Wow! You really brought the hurtin' to the Sumerians! :hammer:

I wouldn't worry about technology yet. We're doing great in the Military route. We should probably take out the Sumerians and then the Arabs. By then we'll be able to research by ourselves and catch up pretty quickly.

I'd be inclined to take Summer and maybe Umma and then switch to the Arabs with Summerian help. I don't like continuing with MW against a SId Civ with muskets. Arabs should only have spears. Maybe pikes if they can get their iron hooked up

Preturn: Things look good

IBT: A mounted warrior is killed.

70 AD: Attack Sumer. Our sword army is knocked down to 3-4 hp, but the Mounted warriors raze the city with a single loss.
Use the leader to rush the pentagon.

I think I will hold off on most trades for now so we can go into anarchy with some cash.

I trade for 1 gpt + pocket change for communication with the Dutch

IBT: We lose 2 mounted warriors. We build the Pentagon.

90 AD: Capture Umma. Haven't Solidified my position yet so no peace yet.

IBT:

110 AD: Mostly healing and moving units


130 AD: Build some replacement towns.

IBT: Byzantines declare war on us.

150 AD: Kill Sumerian units.

IBT: A few more Mounted warrior are killed. I just can't gain the upper ground.

170 AD: Destroy Isin. (capture and abandon because I change my mind)

We are about to go into Anarchy so I go for peace with Sumeria for Monotheism.

IBT: A whole lot of Dromon Start Anarchy in the IBT to get republic sooner.

190 AD: 6 turns anarchy.

230 AD: Embargo by Byzantine and Persia. I go for map trading - note we have an incense deal with the Mongols because of it.

250 AD:

Notes:
3 turns of Anarchy Left

The Byzantines with the Dromon are a royal pain in the nether regions. The are also likely to get allies vs us. I would make peace with them as soon as they will talk.

There are deals currently outstanding that are good for us. 3 civs didn't have Theology so with any luck we can get a 2-fer or 3-fer when we become republic. We had some nice cash when in despot so I am hoping we can do some real deals to help catch up.

I like Mark's idea of going for the Arabs next. We probably don't need Sumeria's help as Sumeria and Aztecs have been at war since before my previous turn.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BZ9-250AD.zip)

Here is a double size mini-map for your viewing enjoyment:

That was my last turn until I leave.

The turn list:
Greebley - Out until August 8
Arizona_Steve - Up if you want to play before Yom can play
Mark1031
Grahamiam
Yom - On Deck/Back the 23rd/24th

Good luck to you all. Hopefully when I get back we will own most or all of our Peninsula, and the Arabs and Sumerians subjugated. :D Can someone make sure the turn list is posted now and then to keep things clear?

I was also thinking we may want to move our palace more towards the center once we have an idea of the shape of our empire (or become communist?)

Our map should be up to date. You may be able to earn cash with map trading (depending if the civs with Navigation have the cash to give you).

Persepolis would be awesome to own. It has Smiths, the GLib, and about 4 other wonders. Too bad it is so far away. I think in this game we will be strong enough to not need the GLib, fortunately, to compete.

Stealing from far away civs might become a viable option soon. Careful steals seem the best (Safe decreases chance of getting caught, but doesn't raise the chance of stealing) - They are about 50% chance if the govt of the other civ isn't Communist, or Fascist. (anarchy I think has higher chance of success) - so the average cost of a steal is therefore 2x the steal price + the chance of war. Once we get Espionage, that chance goes up to 2/3 chance for the right kinds of govt.

I have some time, so I'll take the game...

(0) 250AD
Make peace with the Byzantines and start a war with Arabia. OK. Theodora won't talk at the moment, so no luck there. We're in Anarchy right now, so I look for starving cities that I can set to alternately riot and starve to minimize losses. Don't see any though. F1 shows Salamanca about to riot so it's scientist is swapped to an entertainer. All other taxmen are switched to scientists.
Shift some Mounted Warriors around to prevent that big ol' Dromon stack of doom to the South from landing troops.

IBT
The Mongols start Magellan's Voyage.

(1) 260AD
Our lone settler is on a perfect place to plop down a city, and Neodakheat is founded.

IBT
The Byzantines uselessly bombard our shores.
The Inca want 20 gold to renegotiate peace. I hand it over to them.
Salamanca riots inexplicably. It didn't grow and I adjusted it on the inherited turn. Since several other cities are now rioting I can only conclude that a luxury has been lost somewhere. Since there is still one more turn of Anarchy, I'll wait until my turn to readjust.
The Maya begin Magellan's Voyage. The Mongols complete it.

(2) 270AD
I look around the map and am at a loss to explain the rioting that took place during the last interturn. No sign of deals ending or luxuries being cut off. Really weird. I go through and tweak the entertainer/scientist counts.

IBT
Persia declares war on the Zulu.
Order is restored in all cities, and we become a Republic.

(3) 280AD
Byzantine will talk now, and I give Theodora 140 gold for peace. Some of our cities look a little happier, and it occurred to me that it might've been war happiness ending that caused the rioting above.
Time to readjust our cities. All specialists are put back to work. 20% Luxuries is enough to get the majority of our citizens jumping for joy, and Centralia and Maunch Chunk both get scientists. We make 119 gold/turn after the adjustments.
Egypt has done us a service and getten themselves Feudalism. I send 380 gold + 97 gold/turn to the Byzantines for Engineering, then send Engineering + Republic + 10 gold/turn to Egypt for Fuedalism.
I get 8 gold/turn for our excess incense from the Zulu (they're industrial, so their trade route will not be cut off in the event of a war).

IBT
All is quiet, for the first time in a while.
Sumaria requests an alliance vs the Arabs. I decline.

(4) 290AD
I begin war preparations vs the Arabs by moving the eastern half of our Mounted Warrior line towards Arabia. The rest of the line will have to wait until I get a Settler to that cultural hole to the South of our empire.

IBT
Babylon and Zululand sign a Military Alliance against Persia. Babylon declares war.

(5) 300AD
More troop movements. A settler is on its way to plug the hole in our culture. I'll wait a turn before moving the troops there though.
Allegheny gets a scientist. Larger cities are started on Cathedrals.

IBT
Dogpile time...
Sumaria and Zululand sign a Military Alliance against Persia, and Sumaria declares war.
The Mongols and Persia sign a Military Alliance against Sumaria and Zululand. The Mongols declare war on both of 'em.
Babylon independently declares on the Sumarians.

(6) 310AD
More troop movements. I reinforce defences in cities bordering Arabia.

IBT
The dogpiles continue...
Egypt and Persia sign a Military Alliance against Sumaria. Egypt declares war.
Hittites and Persia sign a Military Alliance against Babylon. The Hitties declare war.
Germany independantly declares on the Sumarians. So do the Netherlands.
Zululand and the Hittites sign a Military Alliance against Babylon. Zululand declares war.

(7) 320AD
Time for some fun. I order Arabia to remove their Galleys from our territory. To my surprise he agrees.

IBT
Dogpiles round 3...
The Maya and Persia sign a Military Alliance against Sumaria. The Maya declare war.
The Byzantines and Persia sign a Military Alliance against Zululand. The Byzantines declare war.

(8) 330AD
I tell those Arabs once again that they need to remove their ships from our territory. And once again they agree.
Oiogouen is founded in the cultural hole.

IBT
Dogpiles round 4...
Sumaria and The Byzantines sign a Military Alliance against the Inca. Sumaria declares war.
Arabia and The Byzantines sign a Military Alliance against the Inca. Arabia declares war.
Germany independantly declares on the Arabs.
The Hittites and Zululand sign a Military Alliance against the Byzantines. The Hittites declare war.

(9) 340AD
Still can't get the Arabs to declare.

IBT
Dogpile round 5...
The Maya and Persia sign a Military Alliance against the Zulu. The Maya declare war.
The Inca and Persia sign a Military Alliance against the Zulu. The Inca declare war.
Sumaria and Arabia sign a peace treaty.
Greece declare war on the Byzantines.

(10) 350AD
I was hoping that the peace treaty with Sumaria would coerce the Arabs into declaring on us, as Abu has gone from polite to annoyed. He STILL doesn't declare.
Still cannot trade for Theology. Chivalry and Invention are up for grabs if Theology can be bought.
No change in the map (except for the two extra cities), so the picture in Greebley's post above still stands.

The Save File - 350AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BZ9-350AD.zip)

The rioting occurred because we had war happiness with the Byzantines. One thing that erodes away war happiness is bombardment.

[Edit: Reading further I see you figured it out :) ]

Edit2: Can we just declare war on the Arabs ourselves? I don't remember any deals with them.

Sure we can. I was trying to get some much needed war happiness that would allow us to keep fighting a little longer.

Nice job Steve. i believe Mark or Yom can take it. I am back from my business trip so can take my turns again. If Mark takes it, i'll play after him.

(from Greebley's last post) Roster Update:
Greebley - Out until August 8
Arizona_Steve <- Just played
Mark1031 <- on-deck
Grahamiam
Yom - On Deck/Back the 23rd/24th

I'm back. I'd rather Mark take it before me. I'm going to be generally busy for a while and I'm up in another SG (maybe 2, haven't checked back in all my games yet).

Sorry, but I can't take it. my game computer is busted and I need to buy a new one. I've had 2 laptops with irreparable breaks in power supply connection in the last month :mad: a Sony and an HP. Should be back in business in a week so I will need a skip till then.

Sorry, but I can't take it. my game computer is busted and I need to buy a new one. I've had 2 laptops with irreparable breaks in power supply connection in the last month :mad: a Sony and an HP. Should be back in business in a week so I will need a skip till then.
yikes! makes my single hd failure in May look like a game of pick-up-sticks. i will try to get to this one tonight and finish by tomorrow or wednesday.

Preflight check: looks good but we’re behind as expected. Persia definitely looks industrial.
We could get furs for our incense from the Inca but since we’re trying to goad the Arabs into war maybe that’s not such a good idea.

IBT: Mongols declare on the Arabs. I see Inca galleys move on ocean squares and realize they probably have navigation or magnetism so I should pull a deal with them next turn.
2 Inca knights show up near the Arabic town of Bukkara. Maybe they’re at war too.

T1: 360AD Trades: Inca: Gems and Furs and 13g for 20gpt and Incense. Crap, I thought that would help people’s mood and I could lower the lux tax but it didn’t seem to help at all.
We seem to be doing a min research run on Theology so I fire all the lab assistants but 1 which improves the mood of the masses. I can then lower lux tax to 10% (need a clown here or there but it’s not too bad) so we can now make +90gpt.vs +51gpt before the trade.

I demand Chivalry, then Theology, then Invention from the Arabs. They refuse all 3 but are still only annoyed. I then demand the town of Der and Bukkara and they become furious.
I then ask them to leave or declare and they declare.
Attack on Der: Steve’s Horsemen (elite* MW) turns into glue but takes 2hp off the defending elite spear; no more gluemaking for this attack as it only takes 2 more MW’s to take the town (it didn’t autoraze). Move the Sword army’s and the MW’s into town.

Zulu are Industrial already and have rifles but they lack iron and are willing to pay for it. Trade Iron to Zulu for WM, 12gpt, and 30g (max they would give us). We can now buy Chivalry for 81gpt and 299g but I hold off as I want to build up reserves.

IBT: Russia declares on Sumeria. It’s an angry world right now. Watch Incan knights take Bukkara.
Maybe this world ain’t so bad, Persia and Zululand sign peace.
Russia declares war on the Zulu; Byz and Mongols sign an MA vs. Sumeria
Arabs counter by bringing 2 longbows forward :)

T2: 370AD Build an embassy in Cuzco (Inca) and see that they have horses, iron, salt, and 5 lux. No wonder they traded 2 for 1. Can’t get Chivalry with an MA vs the Arabs but I can get it for the new silks +44gpt 282 gold. Hold off and trade WM around to the smart people, netting about 60g and bringing the Inca deal down to 40gpt and 280g. Notice that Babylon has Invention but not Theology or Chivalry. Everyone else except Germany and Egypt are well ahead of us.

Decide to try to get Theology and Invention instead, getting Theology from the Inca for silks, WM, 60gpt and 288g. I then turn around and get Invention from Babylon for Theology, 40gpt, and 73g.
Sell our WM to the Zulu for their WM, 3gpt, and 17g

Near Der: Elite MW kills reg Arab Longbow; vet MW redlines but kills the other vet longbow that the Arabs brought forward.
Troops march towards Najran, capturing 3 workers along the way.
Netherlands and Inca MW vs Byz
Arabs kill a couple of MW’s with Longbows as it appears these units refuse to retreat.
Egypt declares on the Zulu.

T3: 380AD Outside Najran: MW Army kills vet LB; elite MW kills 2/3 LB
Attack on Najran: vet MW kills spear (2/4); vet MW dies to spear (4/4); vet MW kills spear (2/4); elite MW kills LB and we take the city.
There are interesting deals available but only for the Silks near Najran. Need to wait 1 turn so I can settle a new town and raze Najran.

IBT: Germany and Byz sign MA vs Netherlands
Persia and Byz sign MA vs Greece
Arabia and Zulu sign MA vs Babylon
Trade TM’s with Zulu
Sumerians move up some LB’s but I have to check and see if they’re at war with the Inca because they may be going after Bukkara.
Germany declares war on Byz.

T4: 390AD Kill 2 spears, 5LB’s outside Najran. Settlers are in position for next turn.
IBT: Germany declares on Persia
A bunch of civ’s are building Shakespear’s
Persians are building Universal Sufferage

T5: 400AD Raze Najran, found Skannayutenate (try to say that 3x fast :lol: )
Outside Skannayutenate: elite MW kills LB on silk and we get another MGL! I think we should use him for a Knight army if I can pull off a trade or 2 this turn. Run him back to Oka and build an army.
Trades: Egypt: sell her Theology for 14gpt and 62g.
Can sign peace with the Arabs for PP but I think we want more land 1st.

Tired. Need to sleep to look over these deals and get Education, which I can then turn into Gunpowder or Chivalry. Need :sleep: Will continue tomorrow night.

Nice work trading. I'd skip chivalry and all optional techs except MT. MW will do the trick for a while. Banking is the next critical tech IMO.

Nice work trading. I'd skip chivalry and all optional techs except MT. MW will do the trick for a while. Banking is the next critical tech IMO.
ok, but if i can get chivalry for free (ie, 0gpt), i'll do it. it'll make cav's easier to come by later via knight upgrades. i agree that we really don't need them right now since we're only dealing with spears and LB's. that could change if the arabs somehow get salt.

something that was in the back of my mind during these turns was that, since the tech stealing price is based on country size (iirc), it may be useful to drop a civ or 2 (arabs and sumeria) down to 1 city and then steal our way into the IA. does that sound feasible?

that is an excellent idea. I don't think Arabs are too advanced so I'm not sure how much we will get out of stealing from them. Summerians were pretty far along IIRC. carefull steals are 50% chance of success so we can calculate cost of trade vs steal as 2x carefull. Of course chiv for free or even relativerly cheap would be worth it for the cheap upgrade, I just don't think it's urgent. Also, It might be worth gifting Egypt and Germany up to near tech parity to have more potential trading partners.

first, the 450AD save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BZ9-450AD.zip)

T5: 400AD (Cont’d): Note that the Glib is located in Persepolis, in the center of Persia. We’re not likely to get that city anytime soon so, imho, education is the item to get so we can continue towards banking.
Lux down to 0% thanks to War Happiness. MM some towns.
Looks like I may have been hallucinating last night. I’m close but I can’t get Education right now. I’ll save some cash for a turn or 2 and see if it gets better. We have 222g and make +118gpt.
Germany: Sell CoL for 109g

Outside of Skanny (changed the name): MW dies to LB, MW kills LB.

IBT: Russia and Persia MA vs Babylon

T6: 410AD Pump up our WM value by trading it around.
Trades: Go to Smoke (Maya) and buy Education for Silks, WM, 115gpt, and 394g.
Go to Netherlands and buy Gunpowder for Education, Silks, 7gpt and 51g
Babylon: Buy Chivalry and a worker for Education.
Set Min research on Banking but I think we’ll be able to buy it at some point. Right now we are paying 349gpt to other civ’s for techs and other stuff.

Outside Skanny: 4/5 MW dies to 2/3 LB (!); another 4/5 MW; MW kill reg LB flawlessly and promotes.

Move pike so it can take position on a hill next turn. This will be a launch point for MW’s into Basra.

Egypt declares on the Byz.
Russia and Inca sign MA vs Byz
Netherlands and Inca sign MA vs Byz
Inca and Persia sign vs Greece
Sumerian units moving south, probably to deal with the Byz.

T7: 420AD Well, this is bad news. The closest saltpeter is in the middle of Byz. Nothing in Arabia or Sumeria.
Grand River riots but completes the Cathedral build. Funny (not haha funny, but weird funny) since I had equal mad and happy faces last turn.
Outside Skanny: elite MW kills LB, elite MW kills another LB
Move MW Army up so I can start isolating some Arabian towns in their Western area. Move SoD into position to take Basra. We’ll need to take their horsetown just to make sure the Sumerians don’t get it.
Trade WM around for about 50 or 60g. Persia has over 22000 gold right now :lol:

IBT: Hittites and Persia sign MA vs Germany
Hittites and Persia sign MA vs Sumeria
1 pike and 1 MW die to LB’s, 2 MW’s retreat. Only 1 LB is killed.
Persia and Sumeria sign peace
Maya declare on Byz

T8: 430AD Outside of Basra: Sword Army kills spear (13/17); Other sword army kills spear (16/17); MW kills vet LB; elite MW kills reg LB flawlessly; MW kills LB flawlessly; 4/5 MW kills final LB on that tile. Move stack next to Basra.
Outside Skanny: Elite MW kills vet LB (3/5)
Make another 30g or so trading maps.

IBT: Germany and Zulu sign MA vs Russia
Persia and Arabia sign Trade Embargo against us
Arabia declares war on Sumeria

Lakeview unexpectedly flips to the Sumerians :mad:, costing us 2 MW’s, a Sword and 2 cat’s :( We lose 2 silks because of this :( Probably trashed our rep!

T9: 440AD Attack on Basra: Other Sword Army kills vet spear; Other Sword Army kills a spear (7/17); 1st Sword Army kills Reg Spear; Elite MW kills LB and we take the city + 3 g + a slave + cat.
Outside Basra: MW dies to reg spear; MW kills 1/3 spear; MW kills LB; MW kills LB and promotes.
Upgrade 2 MW’s to Knights.
Rush temple in Owego to gain another Silk back.
Trades: Rep is damaged. We appear to have broken our deal with the Dutch :( Damnit!
Germany: Sell them Lit for 147g.
Hittites: 22gpt for Incense
Make 37g trading WM around
Egypt: Sell Chivalry for 5gpt and 166g

IBT: Arabia declares on the Byz.
Salam riots (damn) scroll thru to stop other towns from rioting. Hire some clowns. These can be fired when Owega’s borders expand in 4T.
Persian complete Shakespears

T10: 450AD Sell improvements in Basra and abandon city. I was going to found in the same spot but now I notice that the FP we’re on has a wheat. Move entire stack 1T south.
Trade WM around for candy money.

Grand River is on temporary starvation watch. MM next turn after Knight is finish. I’ve left 1 knight N of the Army, letting the next player decide if he wants to load knights or not. Imho, we won’t have anything else for a while so we should do it.

Sorry about the flip @ Lakeside [pissed] It was totally unexpected as it had all native citz’s. I guess I should have rushed the temple. Once we get the silk back, we can fire some clowns and start making money again.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BZ9-450AD.JPG

Ouch, that flip hurts big time. The rep hit is bad but we can do deals by peace renegotiation and with anyone at war with Dutch. At this point I'd say we take the whole penisula. Take Arabs down to 1-2 cities, get tech then do Sumeria. If Sumeria is importing SP can we get an embargo? Is it still only zulu/Persia in IA? We need to slow them down.

Is it still only zulu/Persia in IA? We need to slow them down. no, i believe the byz and Hittites are in the IA as well. however, the world is very angry right now and i think it's because of a scarcity of coal and salt. With all the map trading I was doing, I did not notice a single rail line. However, I was a little tired last night at the end and didn't check during T10. Not that there's much we can do about it anyways.

got it.........

Pre turn: Switch a few smaller cities to settlers and buy 2. We don’t have enough settlers to fill in the spaces we concur.


460: move a few troops around

IT: Well, look who comes a calling the beautiful Theodora offering a rite of passage and mutual protection pact. Well just for fun I see what she'll give us for this and find that she will give us everything she has so I go for. We get banking, astronomy, chemistry, printing press, salt peter and some change for this little deal. I know it will mean major war action but I can't pass up 4 full techs now can I. Well as I suspected as the turn continues we declare war on the Hittites and the Incans. Two industrial age civs so we're going to have to deal with knights vs. rifles and cavs ouch. We also lose furs and gems but no one riots this turn, war happiness. And we're only 4 techs away from the industrial age. Great Little Miss Theo is at war with three-quarters of the world including Samaria.


OK I can’t find my notes so I will give a summary from memory.

Arabs: We beat on the Arabs and take Kufah and Kurasan. By this time we are again at war with Sumeria and will lose a redlined MW army if I don’t make peace with the Arabs so I do for 2 cities. I abandon Anjar which frees up some culture space. I plop down a city to get the extra horses on our peninsula. We are still @ peace with Arabs but it shouldn’t last as they are @ war with Theo.

Sumeria: We declare on them about 3 turns into the MPP. Take our former Lakeview and keep it. It has 1 Sumerian citizen and is a big flip risk but I only keep 2 troops there. Didn’t do much against them. They have horses now and knights. They import everything so I start pillaging to try to cut them off.

Incan/Hittites: Only 1 major threat. They land together 5 cavs. And we take out 4. One survives to attack Sala with 2 spears and we retreat the cav. Watch out for more landings. I have the Knight army defending the core.

Mongols: They were at war with the Summerians and we dealt with about 4 cavs coming from that territory.

Other: We are at war with most other civs but they haven’t done much.

Trades: There was a 3-fer available and I took it. Buy Physics from Theo for about 220gpt. Trade Physics to Myans for Econ. Econ and Phys to Greece for Metalurgy. So we are now 2 techs from IA.

Summary: We have 11 turns on our MPP with Bzyantines. Theo needs iron and we can use it to trade for MT now and get cavs which I think we should do. Ther