Here we come, roster B in the SCOUTX succession game.

First things first: the game ;)

Our start:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/scoutxc3c3.jpg

-- 4000 BC --- (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ScoutXB-4000BC.SAV)

Settings
Version: CivIII 1.29f / Mac 1.29f - GOTM modded (see here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1971533&postcount=145) for the necessary downloads)
Level: Emperor
Map: Large, Islands
Barbarians: "regionally intense"
Other: wet and warm, 4 billion years old

Variant Rule: No research - science slider 0% from the beginning to the end of the game, no scientists ever. No studying at home either! I'll be watching you :D

Roster
- AlanH
- Nikof
- Karasu
- Grunthex
- DJMGator13
- Mistfit

Now, of course, a few points on rules and etiquette etc.

- I would go with the standard 10 turns each (20 turns for the first round), 24 hours to post a 'got it' followed by 48 hours to play, upload the save and the log. By the way, past troubles have taught that it is wise to zip the saves before uploading.

- Rather than staying up all night to stick to the time schedule, let's post updates. I mean: anything can happen, of course, and that's not a problem provided one does his best to warn the teammates.
In other words: not being able to play on a Saturday night will not cause a skip just because the 48 hours limit has passed ;) Disappearing from the thread, on the other hand, will.

- I suggest that we follow the GOTM rules, but we can agree on a different set (RBCiv, blindfolded play or whatever)

- Let's avoid the usual stuff that has to be avoided in succession games: no trading on one's last turn, avoid governors and units on long goto-journeys, automating workers, changing all build orders on the inherited turn etc.
In specific cases in which it may be appropriate to do any such thing, let's just raise the point in the thread.

- In general, let us keep the discussion open. As Scout said, this is not a training game... but we love discussing our moves and strategies, and casually chatting and joking about the weather and life in general.
So, let's freely discuss both the approach to each turnset before we play and our recommendations and notes afterwards.

Well... :hmm: I think that's more or less it. Now let's get started ;)

Free post in case we need it

First discussion topics: roster and strategy

Based on Scout's approach to defining the game, I think we should mix the 'golden' and 'silver' paratroopers. Anyone feels like throwing the first stone?

Strategy. A bit early, of course. But lets' start throwing ideas around some obvious things:
- The Great Library
- Any desired victory condition that we may want to pursue
- Comments on the starting position, and on the fact that we seem to have -quite appropriately- a "Scout" with us? ;)

Just saying hello.. I noticed that when I tried to mod my game to GTOM I decided on PTW IPO Civ 3 so I need to start over again. I will start ASAP.


Golly thats a lot of initials....

Hi, just checking in.

For those I've not played with before, I'm a warmonger by instinct, and I've only played a dozen or so games, mostly GOTMs or GOTM-related SGs. We've just completed SGOTM2 in the Xteam. My approach tends to be analytical, so you'll sometimes see excessive mathematical dissertations, which you are free to ignore ;)

Re The Great Library - I think we should capture it if we can - the ultimate in pointy stick research :D

I've loaded up the save as we are the Mongols [party]. So I feel a largely military game coming on, but a spaceship would be a cool end to a 'No Research' game :mischief:

Start:
- Lots of food, not bad for shields with the hills.
- We're standing on flood plain, so we're already on a river.
- The water is salt (food=1) so we're in a coast.
- We are a little north of the equator on the minimap.

We have a scout and should use him to check out the surroundings, but I suspect settling here is as good as anywhere. I would *very* rarely move more than one tile before starting, and the only single tile moves we can make either destroy a bonus resource, or move away from the coast, or move to another flood plain. Moving to the olives might make sense, as the city center gives the same output as the olives tile. But I'd only move there if there are exciting things to the south, as we would lose most of the flood plains. Lots of people worry about flood plain starts, but my view is the disease losses are more than compensated for by the pop growth rate.

So scout south - only one tile as it's a hill. If we see nothing special, settle where we are and start making little Mongols as fast as possible. Worker to a flood plain and irrigate. We have Pottery, so we should be able to build a granary. With careful forestry and micromanagement we might be able to work out a 4 turn, settler factory. Set research to CB before we do anything. When we settle we'll pop the hut, and if we get a tech we want an expensive one. As you don't get what you're researching (or not, in our case), this will avoid popping cheap CB.

My €0.02 :)

"Scoutsouth"... Given our game-master, how could we avoid that... :D

I haven't had a chance to look at the game yet, nor will I until later tonight. But I cannot resist the temptation to throw a few more lines here, to continue in Alan's wake...

Those I have never played with should be aware that I am a peaceful builder by nature, only occasionally forced to wield weapon by the twisted and cruel mechanics of the game (and life in general).

Regarding the Great Library, I agree. Since we are the Mongols, we should also burn it, but we may want to wait until it obsoletes before we do so... :mischief:

I also agree that launching our zero-research space ship would be very cool; as an alternative, a conquest victory would seem in line with our unorthodox R&D approach, as well as with a part of Mongol history. Yes, it would be against my natural playstyle, but I can force myself into playing an aggressive game for once.
That's assuming we win of course. If we suffer a Conquest defeat, well... that will be too in line with the spirit of the variant :ack:

Regarding the initial move and our tech path as the Mongols... ehm... I have forgotten everything.
When I come back from lunch I'll search for that information for those of us who missed GOTM25

"Scoutsouth"... Given our game-master, how could we avoid that... :D :lol:

Regarding the Great Library, I agree. Since we are the Mongols, we should also burn it, but we may want to wait until it obsoletes before we do so... :mischief: I see we have a literary giant in our midst :rolleyes:

I also agree that launching our zero-research space ship would be very cool; as an alternative, a conquest victory would seem in line with our unorthodox R&D approach, as well as with a part of Mongol history. Yes, it would be against my natural playstyle, but I can force myself into playing an aggressive game for once.I agree a miltary win has to be our target. Note that this is 'islands'. If we find we have too many one tile islands to acquire by negotiation, it may be better to go for domination. Amphibious war is rather high on the tech tree for a gang of hooligans without a test tube between us.

I really can't see how we could launch a spaceship, but it was interesting to speculate about it for a few nanoseconds :hmm:

Does anyone feel strongly about making peace for techs and declaring war immediately? Ie do we want to play by RBCiv honourable rules, or shall we follow the Mongol destiny of all-out, no holds barred, rape and pillage?

That's assuming we win of course. If we suffer a Conquest defeat, well... that will be too in line with the spirit of the variant :ack:It may be in the spirit of the variant, but it's not even an option as far as I'm concerned :eek:

Regarding the initial move and our tech path as the Mongols... ehm... I have forgotten everything.
When I come back from lunch I'll search for that information for those of us who missed GOTM25

I played and enjoyed GOTM 25 enormously. The Mongol hordes were really at home on the plains of that pangeia, with their fast movement. I'm not sure they are so well suited to an island world ... we'll see :hmm:

Here's a quick rundown of our special units. Using these unit names you can get more details of A/D/M and so on from the Civilopedia:

We can already build Mangudai Bowmen and Nomad Warriors. Bowmen upgrade to Khorchin, one of our UUs, with horses and Invention. Warriors upgrade to Anda Swordsmen with Iron, and to Turghaut Cavalry, another UU, with Feudalism and Horses. Bowmen will be important if we share our starting island with anyone, including barbs. We'll be able to milk neighbours for techs by trade and force, and barbs for 25 gold per camp.

Our early horseman is the Gospodar, an upgrade from Chariot wth HBR, and he upgrades to the Ordu Archer, our third UU, at Invention. The fourth and final UU is the Bagatur Horde, which is basically unstoppable. It needs Chivalry, Horses and Iron, and if we can build these before there are too many muskets around we should be able to finish the game.

Some of these units have bombard capability, the Khorchin's bombard can even be lethal IIRC. These units lend themselves to combined arms operations, with some units providing effective defensive cover and others used as artillery, while the Hordes are the primary attackers.

Ordu Archers upgrade to Cavalry, the other three can retire as Steppe Settlers to settle conquered lands. Useful if you are looking for fast domination, and an incredibly cool unit animation as they dismount, unpack, and set up home.

GOTM 25 was pangeia. Islands changes things a bit. We'll need Alphabet/Writing/MapMaking as high priorities to be able to meet other civs and reduce the trade cost of techs. We'll need Bronze/Iron and Wheel/HBR in order to build our second teir attackers - Swords and Gospodar. We also need Monarchy, I suggest, as this will allow us to operate in the almost perpetual state of war that will be needed to conquer lots of islands. Then we need Chivalry, then Invention. If we can reach these two middle age techs without being too far behind we can win.

There was a special pre-game Halloween treat exercise created by Cracker before GOTM 25 started, giving a taste of how these units work together. The thread is in the GOTM Quick Gmes sub-forum here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=67238). It may be a good idea for each of us to at least download the start file (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/saves/treat_game_v129_open.zip) for this game and load it to check that our mod installations are good to go. If you also play this file you'll get a really good ideal of what the units can do. The link I've given is the Open/Monarch-level one, and I've checked that it still works. There are also Regent and Deity files in Cracker's first post.

The spaceship launch with no research variant has been done (at least at monarch).
The inability of the AI to pre-build actually makes it quite straightforward.

The most difficult victory condition for this variant is 20K IMO.

Well, if it's doable I have no objection to trying. We could target the domination limit asap, then we can decide from there whether it looks as if we can build a spaceship. We probably need to keep more civs alive on small islands as research pets than we would if w were going for conquest. Unfortunately it's vanilla, so we are unlikely to get a lot of free techs from Scientific civs.

Here's the list of our rivals from the F10 screen. Ottomans and Russia are usually scientific, but heaven knows which of the others are.

Cultured Mongols is, I feel, an oxyoron :mischief:

:lol:

Do you want me to supply a list?

Apple computers! now there's an oxymoron. :rolleyes:

Checking in. I'm looking forward to this - many thinks to scoutsout and mad-bax for setting the game up! And to our Jumpmasters. Hey - aren't they the guys who push you out of airplanes??? :hmm:

Re: wonders, although the GL would be nice, is it realistic to expect that we'll have early enough contact with the civ who builds it, given that we have islands on a large map?
- and a question: is "islands" essentially archipelago, or does it mean mad-bax has set us up with many, many tiny, tiny dots of land? :)
- should we try for the Lighthouse, for the +1 movement and galleys don't sink at sea? It would help with setting up an earlier trading network, I think. However I'm not familiar with GOTM variant naval units or rules that might change that calculation.

Re: Mongols, that's a lot of new units for little old Vanilla me! Thanks AlanH for the intro and the GOTM 25 tip, I'll definitely check that out.

Re: rules and etiquette, sounds good. GOTM rules work for me.

Re: victory, I have a mild preference for going conquest/domination, since I'm a bit of a builder by nature (becoming less so...) and would learn more there, I think. But I'm happy to go with the group's preference.

Re: turn order, I'd like to play in the first half of the roster, if that's okay. I'm out of town without Civ on July 12-28, so I'd like to play a turn before I leave! I'll check out the start position this evening, and learn all about those funny-looking resources...

Cheers,
nikof

Yes please. I could scratch it out of the save with a hex editor, I s'pose, but I'd rather not.

Hah! Don't get me started on Windoze :gripe:

Gator checking in.

I'm a competent CivIII Emporer level sometime Diety level player,I play mostly Emporer on C3C. Started playing GOTM at number 28 (I played 29 but forgot to submit it), so this is my first Mongol experience. I will definately look over the "Treat" save before playing.

As far as AlanH and his numbers, I'm a CPA so hopefully I'll be able to keep up :lol:.

As far as a Space win on a no research that sounds very difficult. More with having to wait for the other civs to get and trade the tech. If we were able to research in the Modern Age I would say go for it, but since we can't research the AI seems to be very stingy with trading those Modern Age techs.

As for other variants, maybe we can be the first to use the "Rape & Pillage Non-Oscillating War (NOW)" variant, maybe even throw in a xCC variant. This would allow us to sign alliances and continue to trade with other civs, until their turn comes up. We would be allowed to sue for peace gaining cities & techs but must immediately redeclare war, allowing the enemy civ their counterattacks on the IBT. This would definately be a Conquest/Domination goal.

As for our opening moves, I think we should stay off the olive hill. Mined that hill will give 2/2/2 in Despot, as a center square we would loss the second shield. We easily have 15 food at size 5 but only 6 shields, although with enough preparations we can still get a 4 turn settler factory, using a mOlive hill (2/2/2), a mSheep hill (2/3/2), 3 iFP (9/0/3) and our center square (2/1/1). The growth turns to size 6 & 7 would need to go to a 2spt tile then moved to a 2f/1s tile to give us a 6/8/7/9 shield yield.

Is it better to settle in spot or to move the settler W to the forest as far as the disease issue goes. IIRC disease is possible when a citizen is working a FP tile, so even founding the city in the forest we would still be subject to disease. Plus I would hate to give up the forest chop which could help rush a granary or a settler and the possiblility of that tile being a BG. We need all the shields we can get.

As far as the roster order, I like the alternating suggestion of "Masters" and "Jumpers" order. I do not mind playing first, but if someone else wants that is fine. Since Karasu and AlanH both have more playing experience than myself I defer to them on the roster order.

BTW, its a little late now since Karasu hs already established the thread but I was think of our thread title along the lines of "Jumpmaster 1B: We Don't Need No Education" or better yet "Jumpmaster 1B: Science? We don't need no stinking Science".

Re. Roster, I should have said I'll play anywhere, and don't mind going first as long as we've all agreed on the general plan before we start.

It's a good plan to alternate the gold and silver players. I'm just not sure which category I'm in :hmm:

I like "power is knowledge" too. A nice irony. I like a play on words that I know will travel about a foot above most peoples heads.

I was think of our thread title along the lines of "Jumpmaster 1B: We Don't Need No Education" or better yet "Jumpmaster 1B: Science? We don't need no stinking Science".

:lol: Definitely better than mine... had I known I wouldn't have stayed up all night thinking of a title ;)

BTW, I am starting to believe that Nikof is sort of volunteering for the starting turns, or just after Alan... :mischief: hopefully, you'll get to play three or even four rounds before you leave.

Oh, and -any news of Grunthex? Has he overcome his installation troubles?

EDIT: Thanks, Mad. I haven't spent the night in vain then ;)

Checking in. Got my chute, left my nerves on the ground. I think.

Since I'm new to everyone, I should introduce myself.

I've been playing Civ since the beginning, way back to the original. Never really got past Regent until this year, since I'm a complete turtle builder at heart. I've recently won my first and second Monarch games, and one of them was on Archipelago no less which is normally my big weak point. I'm learning to let my urge to bash things out - now I just need to PLAN before I declare the wars.

In terms of roster, I like the idea of alternating stronger and weaker players (and I'm definitely the second on this difficulty level). I'd also like to be around 4-5-6 in the roster. I'll be tied up for most of the weekend (time to comment in the evenings, little time to play) this weekend, and the next two.

In terms of the start, I'm a definite believer that you settle in place unless you can see some pressing need to move, and I can't. I agree we start with a flood plain, then we probably move south to start forestry to help a granary build?

And lastly I'd be interested in going for a violent-style victory on an 'islands' map. Still curious how big these islands are.

Ok, I lied about lastly. City-settling. I assume that at this level, we'd have to go to a 3 or 4 spacing, I'll have to smack down my OCP habits immediately. Realize this is a bit early for the discussion. I just like to talk!

EDIT: Thanks, Mad. I haven't spent the night in vain then ;)

I'm not sure it was worth an entire night Karasu. I can think of better things to do with an entire night. Could probably play 100 turns or more. :D

As for our opening moves, I think we should stay off the olive hill. Mined that hill will give 2/2/2 in Despot, as a center square we would loss the second shield. We easily have 15 food at size 5 but only 6 shields, although with enough preparations we can still get a 4 turn settler factory, using a mOlive hill (2/2/2), a mSheep hill (2/3/2), 3 iFP (9/0/3) and our center square (2/1/1). The growth turns to size 6 & 7 would need to go to a 2spt tile then moved to a 2f/1s tile to give us a 6/8/7/9 shield yield.

Is it better to settle in spot or to move the settler W to the forest as far as the disease issue goes. IIRC disease is possible when a citizen is working a FP tile, so even founding the city in the forest we would still be subject to disease. Plus I would hate to give up the forest chop which could help rush a granary or a settler and the possiblility of that tile being a BG. We need all the shields we can get.

As you say, the probability of flood plain disease inceases as you work more flood tiles. Building on the flood plain means we'll always be working one flood tile, even though we'll not be getting the food benefit from it.

The sheep won't give us three shields in despot as it's at 1 + 1 currently and hasn't absorbed the despot penalty. No point mining it until we get to Monarchy or Republic.

I initially didn't like the idea of moving west away from the coast, but it may not be a bad idea and I'm warming to it. There are definitely more forests W and SW, so we don't lose all forestry options. It does mean we only get disease probability from tiles we are getting a food benefit from. It would usually be a bad idea to build one tile from the coast, but in this case we are on an island, space will be tight, and settling there will allow us to build two more towns close by on the coast at RCP distances 3-3.5. It also has river defensive bonus on three sides on the landward direction. We lose access to the rocks (1/1/2 - not a big deal) and a flood plain over the water that we may not be able to develop anyway. It looks like we pick up some plains and more river to the W/NW. Yes, I like it :thumbsup:

So perhaps the first turn is scout->goody hut then west to the hill. Worker starts irrigating. Settler moves west if the western terrain looks good.

Ok, I lied about lastly. City-settling. I assume that at this level, we'd have to go to a 3 or 4 spacing, I'll have to smack down my OCP habits immediately. Realize this is a bit early for the discussion. I just like to talk!
Hello :wavey: No, it's not early, as I think it can affect our early decisions on roads and even, as I indicated, on first city position.

I have never been in favour of OCP. Settlers take a long time getting to sites, you waste lots of tiles that can't be worked by small town populations, you can't share defensive troops/MPs between cities because the distances are too far, you have to build temples or libraries just to join up your culture border, dada ... dada ..... and you don't get any benefit from it until after Sanitation by which time you should've won or lost

My preferred placement is RCP at 3-3.5 and then 6 or 7 according to how the rivals are positioned. On an island it's going to be even more important to squeeze towns close together. I got about 15 close-packed towns on the starting island in the recent Spanish GOTM, and had a really productive and effective civ as a result.

The sheep won't give us three shields in despot as it's at 1 + 1 currently and hasn't absorbed the despot penalty. No point mining it until we get to Monarchy or Republic.

Good point, but are you positive? I just looked back at my GOTM29 and a mined Wool hill was giving 2f/3s in despot. The food was reduced but not the shields. Does the penalty only apply to one item (either food or shield) and not both? I usually only notice it affecting (reducing) food.

You're right! But for the wrong reason! Mining a hill gives you two shields, not one. One goes to the despot penalty and you get the other as a third shield. Thanks!

I have never been in favour of OCP. Settlers take a long time getting to sites, you waste lots of tiles that can't be worked by small town populations, you can't share defensive troops/MPs between cities because the distances are too far, you have to build temples or libraries just to join up your culture border, dada ... dada ..... and you don't get any benefit from it until after Sanitation by which time you should've won or lost


Oh, I know! I just haven't been able to break myself of the habit, even knowing it was killing me. It was just so beautiful in the Modern Ages...

My last couple of games I've been FORCING myself to go to a 4-4.5 distance, and I'm already seeing the increased benefits... but it's still a fight every time I get a settler. :) Needless to say I'm looking forward to the dotmapping session to see if I can plan one of these super-crazy-tight builds.

@AlanH

I like being right even if for the wrong reason :lol: which is how it usually happens.

Question on the Treat save: The zip for it had some other files to load, but if I'm already modded to the new MB-GOTM mod do I still need to load those other files?

EDIT: It loads and all the units display and are in the Civlopedia in my reg GOTM modded version. Looks like those other files are not needed (already included).

Ok got some sleep. Howdy to all of the team members. I am a monarch level player on pretty much all three civ titles I have played for about 6-8 months. It seems that most of my victories come by U.N. or space, so I guess that puts me in the builder catagory. I would be very interested in getting pointers on early war mongering. I stink at mathmatics, so don't expect to many long posts from me in that arena. I would really enjoy winning this one by force. Mongols in Space or Gengis the Peacemaker does not quite have the right ring to my ears. I have not got my civ modded yet, I have to wait for tomorrow to download the gotm stuff (expect questions from me when I get home and try to set this up tomorrow evening)

Let's have at 'er

AlanH - Congrats on SGOTM2 finish.

I have potential roster order, since the first player gets 20 turns and everyone else gets 10 how about:


- Karasu (Since he'll be unavailable in August lets get him as many early rounds as possible)
- Nikof (1st jumper to sign up & could sneak in 2 or 3 rounds before he is unavailable late july)
- AlanH
- Grunthex (2nd of the Jumpers to sign up)
- DJMGator13
- Mistfit (3rd of the Jumpers to sign up)

We may want to reshuffle the roster in August when Karasu is on vacation.

Roster works for me!

Did you notice this quote from mad-bax?
"You're on an island, and you can't research anything, and it's emperor level, and I've given extra units to some of the civs.... Just pause for thought..."

Do we have a back-up plan if there aren't any other civs on our island to research for us? Sit on the coast and wait for a ship to come by? :mischief:

Build big slingshots. Fire units across straights. :crazyeye:

But let's assume Mad-bax gave us someone to :hammer: on. The terrain west of start looks yellower, and I think we're more likely to have land in that direction. South/southwest being greener I think means we're more likely to have the shore that way. Ok, so it's a guess. It's the best I've got for now!

My install should be good tomorrow, I got sort of caught up in a little after work going-away party. Until then, what exactly HAS M-B modded on us? In GOTM 25 where these nice units came from, it seemed like there was a custom tech-tree. Do we get something different there, to go with the units and resources?

No. The tech tree is starndard. Tech-trees are difficult to mod quickly, so I went for low risk.

The roster looks fine to me. I'd gladly swap position with Alan, as he was already available to start the game and I am spending a couple of day at my mother's... without Civ... :eek:

If no other adjustments are needed, we can kick the game off (I'll update the roster in the first post).

------------

It seems there to be a slight preference for the bloodshed over the peaceful victory conditions. Are we going to confirm this and decide to go for domination / conquest (depending on the one-tile islands), or do we want to discuss a bit more the options?

------------

I managed to give a look at the start position -by the names of the other civs and of the additional files, it seems that MB has been pretty busy adding exotic units -I am starting to suspect that it's slightly more than "the odd unit here and there"... ;)

Moving the settler W and found on the forest is tempting and would most probably make a better use of the available land (well, from the little we can see in the starting picture).
But we would loose access to the sea, which might be quite important.
And we would not pop the second hut with border expansion (ok, a minor point, but still nice to have).

Regarding the scout: moving 1NW1W on the hill seems preferable to me, especially if we consider the fact that we start the game quite close to the south pole.

Roster works for me!
Me too. if Karasu wants to swap that's cool too.

Do we have a back-up plan if there aren't any other civs on our island to research for us? Sit on the coast and wait for a ship to come by? :mischief:
There's nothing else we can do. We'll have to sit eagle-eyed scouts on headlands and look for neighbouring islands, and hope we can shout across to exchange techs. If that doesn't work, by definition, a ship will bring with it all teh necessary techs to allow us to go a-sailing. We'll have to use those river tiles to best effect to build a solid treasury so that we can buy them when they appear.

But we would loose access to the sea, which might be quite important.Only until we can pop a settler and build a seaside resort. That can happen quite fast if we prioritise it over the granary. Meanwhile we can't use sea access for anything until we have Map Making, so I doubt if we'll miss it. The only hazard would be if the AI grabs all the coastline before we can pop a settler. But if they are settling that close already we'll have bigger problems on our hands.:eek:

Sorry for the double post

If I'm UP, then I've GOT IT, but I'll wait for confirmation of the roster before I start, plus any last comments on my proposed starting moves:

Research to CB in case we pop a tech, scout NW to hut then west to check the western terrain. If it looks like we have a settler factory then move settler west to forest and build Karakorum (see, I've done some GOTM 25 revision :D ), in 3950 BC, and nail the science slider firmly to the left hand endstop.

We shall need to review whether a settler factory is appropriate as we explore. That will depend on the space and the competition for it. But for safety, our early moves should assume it is.

As we are delaying our start by one turn, and the space we have to explore may not be very big, I'm thinking we should build a warrior first rather than a scout to discourage an early sneak attack on our capital. A warrior will also come in handy as an MP and will pay for himself fairly soon, as we only get one content citizen at Emperor. When we've seen a bit more of the space and terrain, we can choose our next builds from archer/warrior/scout.

By the end of my turns we'll have to decide whether we want to pop a settler before building a granary. Again, I think that depends on the competition for space. If we have time we should probably build a granary, as we'll then be able to flood the available space with a city every four turns. If we are in danger of having nowhere left to settle then we should pop a settler and get down to working out how to build our territory using pointy sticks.

Lemme know when we're good to go. If there are any really serious surprises during the first 20 I'll come back for discussion before committing us.

Fine with me, Alan. Let the game begin :)

Ok with buiding a warrior first. Actually, the map being islands we may not even need more than a couple of Scouts.

Good point on the granary too: if we haven't got too much land to settle, we may even want to reconsider building it at all. Even more so if we find one or two food bonuses near the starting position.


EDIT: updated the roster, here we go:

- AlanH: up and forming the first Mongol hordes
- Nikof: warming up
- Karasu
- Grunthex
- DJMGator13
- Mistfit

Sounds good to me.

With all that FP we could probably get 1 settler out before building the granary. But we are going to need several workers if we go settler factory route for capital.

@our Jumpers: once you get your modded Civ up you should definately play a few rounds of the GOTM25 Treat that AlanH posted. Very neat units. AlanH did a nice quick write-up on them also. He only left off 1 unit that was in the Treat - the Bagator Horde, which is a nice 3(6)/2/3 unit, that can retire as a Steppe Settler.

Warming up here (i.e., time to pause GOTM and get this game installed!)

Quick question - is there any difference between popping a hut with a unit, as opposed to with border expansion?

Sounds good to me. I don't think we should choose our victory conditions until we have most of the map plotted out. We could be setting ourselves up for hardship if the map does not match up with the direction we choose.



Edit: Land info

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/know.jpg

Edit#2: are we playing with the different water movemet values? How about squids?

AlanH did a nice quick write-up on them also. He only left off 1 unit that was in the Treat - the Bagator Horde, which is a nice 3(6)/2/3 unit, that can retire as a Steppe Settler.

:cough:
The fourth and final UU is the Bagatur Horde, which is basically unstoppable. It needs Chivalry, Horses and Iron, and if we can build these before there are too many muskets around we should be able to finish the game.


@Mistfit: Just a personal opinion - I'm not sure that using mapstat is a valid move at this stage. I reckon it's a spoiler until you get the full map by your own efforts, and that's the rule I work to in GOTM. So for now, I haven't looked at your table beyond seeing where it came from.

Sorry for the delay, I think the forum must have dropped my subscription to this thread - I was wondering why it was so quiet after my previous posting frenzy :hmm:

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I'll get stuck in. Back in a while ...

@AlanH - RE: Bagatur Horde - :blush: oops - I even printed out your post and I still missed it. :lol


@nikof - I'm not positive but I think when a GH is popped by Cultural expansion it will not give barb warriors.

Just realized I hadn't properly introduced myself in this thread. How rude.

I've been playing Civ3 (vanilla only) for less than 3 months. Have a Monarch diplo victory under my belt. Had been working on my first Emperor game, playing the Russians towards spaceship, but it's on hold now. I think it was going okay, I finally took half of my starting continent from the Greeks, with the Romans stuck in the jungles down south. Had to re-load a save when the two of them ganged up on me very early - chalked that segment up as a "loss".

GOTM 32 is going much better, despite a few boneheaded moves. (Hey, if you chop the forest providing the only shields around, several resources still won't get you a 4-turn factory! :-/ ) And no re-loads, of course. Haven't posted on the spoiler thread yet because I'm trying to play enough to finish. The continent is mine, and I'm milking :-) and waiting for some military advances to take over enough other territory to approach the domination limit.

What else? Biggest constraint on my playing right now is 3-month-old Joseph.
Pros: Cute smile! :-D I'm up at 3am anyway, why not play some Civ?
Cons: Time consuming. Hard to concentrate on tactical niceties when a baby is squalling in your ear.

A few things I've been thinking/wondering:
1) Can any of the Mongol UUs trigger a golden age?
2) Has anyone seen a good summary table of worker-turns-to-complete-improvements? My combinations of workers is often less than exact.
3) I fully agree with keeping an extra warrior around the new cities for MP/defense, surprise attacks hurt me in my Emperor game.

Thing I write to myself most often in my Civ notes: "Play Slower!"

Cheers,
nikof

p.s. "Power is Knowledge" - heh, I love it!

A few things I've been thinking/wondering:
1) Can any of the Mongol UUs trigger a golden age?
2) Has anyone seen a good summary table of worker-turns-to-complete-improvements? My combinations of workers is often less than exact.
3) I fully agree with keeping an extra warrior around the new cities for MP/defense, surprise attacks hurt me in my Emperor game.

Thing I write to myself most often in my Civ notes: "Play Slower!"


#1) Don't know I was going to ask AlanH the same question.

#2) Very good article (understatement, should be required reading) in the War Academy by Cracker on Improving Your Opening Play and the Forestry section has a worker turn chart. Here is a link to it. (http://www.civfanatics.com/doc/civ3/cracker/civ3_starts/) EDIT: The Terrian Basic section has a very nice chart on irrigating vrs mining bonuses.

"Play Slower" - taking notes as you play for your turn report will force you to play slower.


EDIT: Cross posted with MB - nice chart.

1. They all can.
2. >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1295565#post1295565)
3. Usually wise ;)

Turn 0 4000 BC
Set research to CB.
Check prefs to ensure that stop at end of turn is ON and that darned book cursor is OFF.
Settler NW to hut. We get Bronze Working [dance]
Scout sees wheat on the FP within our proposed capital's radius. :D
There's more FP to the north. We are going to make lots of little Mongols around here.
Scout West to hill. Sees more sheep to the W/NW
We can see lots of plains on the river to the west. Good stuff, lots of shields.
Our proposed city site would have:
1 x FP/wheat
4 x FP
1 x sheep/hill/river
1 x olives/hill/river
3 x forest river
3 x plains river
1 x hill/river
2 x coast
1 x desert
2 x ?? forest
This is a great settler factory :cool:
Settler west to forest, confirms the hidden tiles are also forest.
Worker starts to irrigate the start tile FP.

Turn 1 3950 BC
Found Karakorum -> warrior (4)
Sliders to 10.0.0 for Mongol-speed research and 4 gpt into the piggy bank
Citizen works sheep/hill
Scout west sees coast to SW, west again to coast, sees whale tail and goody hut

Turn 2 3900 BC
Scout to goody hut, gets a settler [dance] I :love: this game!
Scout NW on coast
Settler heads SE towards RCP 3.5 location on the hill by the river.

Turn 3 3850 BC
Settler SE to coastal hill on river. Sees a second whale tail, but a site to get both would not be on the river.
Scout N, E to hill and sees another goody hut.

Turn 4 3800 BC
Worker completes irrigation starts road
MM Karakorum for 1 shield and extra food from FP to complete warrior in 1 turn.
Found Ta-Tu on west coast, start a worker (10 turns)
Scout N on hill towards hut.
Now earning 6 gpt

IBT:
An AI unit appears across the water and pops the goody hut over there.
Karakorum Warrior -> Warrior

Turn 5 3750 AD
Contact Korean Ashigura Footman (spearman stats)
Korea is polite, has Alphabet and 10 gold, needs Warrior Code. Already has Bronze and Pottery.
No deals available, if we offer all we have (28 gp + 6 gpt + WC) we are close to a deal.
Warrior SE to sheep hill to do a little local exploring to the south while our long range scout heads north-ish. Warrior sees wheat on grass, and a coast to the south. Looks like we are near the southern end of a land mass.
Scout north to the hut and we get ... the Wheel [party]
We can see horses a short distance north of Ta-Tu.
Back to Korea then, with our new-found technology.
We can have Alphabet + 10 for Wheel + WC.
Or we can have Alphabet for Wheel + 28 gp + 1 gpt.
I decide to take the first option. I prefer to keep our treasury strong, and Warrior Code might become obsolete for trading purposes if Korea meets someone else.

Turn 6 3700 BC
Warrior SE to olives hill. Sees more coast on both sides of the narrow channel.
Scout N, E, Sees more river, forest, FP.

Turn 7 3650 BC
Worker completes road, moves NW to second FP.
Warrior South, see fish
Scout NE, N, sees fish

Turn 8 3600 BC
MM Karakorum for growth next turn at maximum shields.
Ensure governor is set to manage production and not moods. Don't want an entertainer, thanks!
Scout North
Worker starts irrigation.
Warrior West

Turn 9 3550 BC
Karakorum grows to pop 2
Slider to 9.0.1 to control happiness
Warrior South
Scout NW, NW to mountain, sees horses, rivers, hills. This looks like a big island!
Korea still has sero gold and no cities.

Turn 10 3500 BC
Warrior heads back North towards Karakorum to take up MP duties.
Scout W, SW to hill

IBT Karakorum completes warrior2 and starts a granary. Its borders expand.

Turn 11 3450 BC
Scout west, sees more sheep
Warrior2 east on the road, and north to check out the east coast north of Karakorum.

Turn 12 3400 BC
Worker completes irrigation and starts road
Warrior2 north on coast
Warrior1 back into Karakorum for some R&R and to entertain the ladies.
Slider 10.0.0, +7 gpt
Scout West, sees a hut, pops it for 25 gold, sees furs
Korea still has zilch

Turn 13 3350 BC
Warrior2 north, sees local furs north of Karakorum. So we shall have one luxury :rolleyes:
Scout south, south, sees lambs

IBT Ta-tu completes worker2, starts barracks

Turn 14 3300 BC
Warrior2 North on coast
Scout W,W, sees cows x 2
MM Karakorum for growth next turn at maximum shields
Worker2 to plain for irrigation duties

IBT karakorum grows to pop 3

Turn 15 3250 BC
Worker2 starts irrigating
Warrior2 NW on coast
Scout W, N, sees horse
Korea has CB, wants over 100 for it. There's no hurry, and the price will come down if we meet someone else.
Slider to 9.0.1 to keep Karakorum happy.

Turn 16 3200 BC
Start chopping the forest SW of Karakorum. This will provide shields for the first settler.
Warrior2 N
Scout W, NW to hell, sees NW coast.

Turn 17 3150 BC
Scout NE, N. Warrior NE

Turn 18 3100 BC
Warrior NE, sees oysters. Scout NE, N sees hut

IBT Warrior meets Han warrior on the NE coast. We are not alone on this landmass!
Karakorum grows to pop 4

Turn 19 3050 BC
Meet Han. He's cautious, has 44 gold, furs, Masonry and also has no cities! This is not Emperor as I'm used to seeing it!
He needs Alphabet, Pottery, Wheel. We have a trading opportunity. Let's deal :D

Give Korea 114 gold for CB
Give Alphabet+Wheel+Pottery to Han for Masonry+33 gold
Sell Masonry to Korea for 99 gold.

We gained Masonry+CB+18 gold
We are at tech parity with Korea and we are ahead of Han by CB.

Set our massive team of scientists to research Mathematics, flat out at zero cost.
Scout NE to hut and pops Mysticism, moves north to hill on NW coast
Warrior NW
Worker completed irrigation, starts road.
Slider to 8.0.2 to keep Karakorum happy

IBT Han warrior heads in our general direction

Turn 20 3000 BC
I decide to turn warrior2 back towards Karakorum, just in case Han's warrior gets any bright ideas. He heads south, cutting off the Han direct path down the coast.
Scout moves east ,east, sees the Han light blue border.

State of the nations:

Scores are Mongols 117, Han and Korea 89
Korea has a second city. We are up CB on Han, and Mysticism on both.
We have two cities, no improvements, two warriors, one scout, two workers.

We have a granary in 5 turns in Karakorum, and currently it is set to grow to pop 5 on the same turn. We will want to slow that growth by one turn without slowing the granary build. This will leave the granary full. Karakorum has a variety of combinations of spt and fpt available for fine tuning - a micromanager's dream. So this will be easy to arrange. There's a forest chop that will complete on turn six, putting ten shields in the production bin towards a settler. So we should queue a settler after the granary, and we can then pop a settler four turns later, as the city reaches pop 7. We'll need some serious entertainment tax when Karakorum reaches pop 6, so let's watch for, and avoid riots. Warrior2 can return to base as an MP to help with this.

Here's a screenshot of our world, and the zipped save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Mongols_3000BC.jpg

Well, I got everything installed (Thanks Gator) and tried to shadow along your turns (to see how a flood plains start should be done)

My seed went a little off right away, not giving me The Wheel from a hut, so I couldn't duplicate the trades. It also showed differently when I finally met the Han, as he had a second city (though I don't know where!) ... I was able to mimic your moves absolutely (there was one typo in your log, you said you sent the scout NE, N, but it was really NE, E). And I learned absolutely nothing new, except for the importance of paying attention to micromanagement. Which isn't NEW, but it reinforced.

Question: I grew to size 3 right when you did, but my size 4 fell a turn behind -- once you hit 3, did you MM back to the FP, or stay on the olives hill for a bit? It's hard to tell since in the save you're on the hill.

I was going to try my hand at a dot-map, but Paint really sucks for this. I gotta find a better editor. Here's my thoughts. All are based on the 3-3.5 Ring.

A city one NE of the FP+Wheat in Karakorum's borders. This gets us close to the furs (should be taken once we have our second ring city (7-7.5? or 6-6.5?)

3 NW of Karakorum on the hill. We could go one NE or one SW of this with the same ring, but this maximizes the food available, and the loss of one hill is minimal in this environment.

South of the olive hill. Gets another wheat, can share it's high production tiles as needed with Karakorum. Looks to me like it'd need a cultural expansion some day to reach real usefullness., but still the best spot on the ring that way.

Last, 2 SE of Ta-Tu. Crowding things. I don't know if it's really needed, but it's a possibility.

Is Karakorum a good capital for us? There's a lot of nice land out that way, that will be too corrupt to use. Do we start thinking about designing rings from a future city to the Northwest somewhere? I've never USED RCP, by the time I discovered it, I was on C3C.

End babbling here. Wait for input.

Alan :banana: :goodjob:

This is no research game and you have us up techs. Beautiful.


@ nikof - Please do not be offended by my next question. Have you managed a 4 turn settler factory in any of your games? The idea is to keep food at +5 fpt. Since Alan set the governor to emphasize production on the turn the city grow the new citizen will be placed on the highest shield tile available. Once the city grows we want to micromanage the city back to +5fpt. I can post or link you to some examples.

Do not be shy about asking questions. I know this is not a TDG, but we do want to help our Jumpers improve.

Two techs and a settler.. Not bad...OMG thats awe inspiring. Great turns. I plan to be modded tomorrow (acutally later today) I'll check back in once I sleep some and check the save.

Great going! :goodjob:

A few random thoughts:
- Suggested city sites look good. I would claim the southern wheat first; a city 3S of KK would be perfect, but that's distance 4.5...
- The question on capital placement is very good: we have very little room around Karakorum, so we will definitely have to establish a second larger core somewhere else.
It is clearly a bit too early right now to decide, but we should decide very soon whether we want to build the FP next to KK and jump the palace later, or rely on a GL ro rush the FP far away, or whatever.
In the first case, it will be wise to pay attention to the city placement around the FP city too.
- Military. With our cheap UUs being on the upgrade path of almost every AA unit, we can happily start building all we want for a massive later upgrade.
Not having to buy the early MA techs becomes at this point a strong argument in favour of getting the Great Library.
We may also want to consider an Ancient Age aggression on the Han with Horses and swords, depending on how the game evolves.


EDIT (I always forget...)
- AlanH: built the foundations of a glorious Mongol empire ;)
- Nikof: up
- Karasu: already dreaming of mongol hordes
- Grunthex
- DJMGator13
- Mistfit

After a night's sleep:

Yes, a nice fast start with all those goodie hut techs and the settler. I felt it was important to get a second city producing than to wait around for more information, but in the cold light of day I realise I should have settled on the east coast, near the flood plain wheat. It would have taken a few turns to get there, but with all the food in that area the two cities could have shared the tiles and still produced a settler every four turns, plus rapid worker production. As ever, food is power, and, as we know, power is knowledge ;) BTW, I haven't said yet that I think that's a great strap line :thumbsup:

I still like the northern wheat site for more than a couple of reasons:

1, Karakorum can be a four turn settler factory without even using the wheat, and it already has two FP tiles prepped, so another city could use the wheat.

2. It's development towards our only known rival on this land mass. Always a good thing. Our early land grap has to be northwards. The southern site is unlikely to be competed for until Map Making appears.

3. It's heading for the only known lux.

4. I am pre-judging that we will probably build our Forbidden Palace somewhere to the north of Karakorum and plan to transfer our capital to Han territory. The northern wheat city would be a second mature city in the FP's core.

5. The southern wheat will be hard work to irrigate (24 worker turns to chop, irrigate and road to it) so we'd probably use it for a shield and 3 food. Food is power, and we can get 5 fpt food from the northern wheat.

6. I'm still feeling guilty about not having settled there already :blush:

@Grunthex: Yes, huts are a real lottery. It sounds like in your game the Han got a settler. What did you get, BTW?

I don't recall the precise citizen allocations for the pop increase to 4, but I do recall sticking to the flood plain for a bit longer than was intuitive after the pop 3 increase. I think I moved back to the olives shortly before pop 4. I was also juggling it with the forest chop timing. I didn't do a thorough analysis of the decision to start chopping - it started when the worker came free, and I knew ten shields would help either with the granary or the first settler. The options around Karakorum are really superb for mm, as I said in my log. You can tune it to deliver food at any rate you want with pinpoint precision and with options on shield production as well, so I knew I could manipulate it to use those ten shields, and I did. As it is they will arrive on the first turn of the settler build, after the granary is completed.

I didn't build much military as it became obvious that we have a fair bit of breathing space before the AI starts looking for blood. They seldom attack until they are running out of free space to expand, and there's plenty of that. I figured a barracks was going to help our research program :hammer: more than one or two more regular warriors.

More on Palaces. Here's my understanding of the corruption implications of a Palace move.

It looks like Karakorum is a temporary capital. It doesn't have room for an efficient two-ring core on our own island, and there's lots of space to our north. My guess is we'll build an FP - by hand if we can't find a leader to do it for us - somewhere north of Karakorum. Alternatively we could jump our palace, but I've never been happy about abandoning a city early in the game. We don't need RCP around the FP. The corruption deal is that once we move the palace, cities near the FP get a corruption ranking equal to the number of cities nearer to the Palace than they are. So, for example, if we set up our Palace in Beijing and we have a typical AI OCP ring of 5 cities at RCP distance 5 then all cities closer to the FP than 6 will get zero rank corruption. If there's a second ring of Han cities at radius 9 then all cities between 6 and 9 from our FP will have rank 5 - the number of cities in the Palace's first ring. So placement round a potential FP site looks more like Disc City Placement ("DCP" [tm]), as it is not important to stay *on* a circle, only *within* a circle to achieve a particular rank relative to a Palace with an RCP layout.

Of course, if we take over Han's cities and they are not in an RCP layout, and we don't rearrange them, then it doesn't matter where we put our FP core cities, and they can go wherever the best resources are.

There, I hope I've succeeded in confusing everyone. I did warn you about my mathematical leanings :hmm: Please feel free to comment, up to and including telling me I'm talking rubbish :D

Got it!

@ AlanH - great start!

@ DJM - not offended at all. I have done a 4-turn factory, but will check in if I get confused.

I should be able to play tonight/tomorrow morning, and will probably have some questions before I take the turns. Things a bit crazy on the home front today...

nikof

I haven't studied the map yet regarding city locations. If we are going to hand build FP (saving a GLeader to relocate Palace in Han terrirtory) in our initial core should we plan our rings around our proposed FP city? Here is some wisdom on the FP that akots bestowed on our team in SGOTM2.


RCP around FP, however tight it is, is not influenced by corruption as long as the cities around FP are closer to that FP city versus the cities around Palace. For example, if there is RCP 5 from Palace and RCP 3 from FP, all these cities are rank 1. However, if there is RCP 5 from FP and RCP3 from Palace (6 cities for example0, then RCP5 from FP would be rank 7 for all cities. As a general rule, build around FP should be dense and build around Palace should follow OCP pattern. Therefore, we can build FP somewhere in the original core to gain OCN bonus and then jump Palace with a leader to AI-settled core with OCP.

We built on a RCP3/6/9 in our core and later rushed a new Palace in captured lands that provided a RCP5/8 rings.

... and will probably have some questions before I take the turns
Please do, I'm sure I must have missed some key information in my turn log. There are no stupid questions .. except the ones you don't ask ;) Of course, there's no guarantee you'll get sensible answers :mischief:

Just a quick PS on city planning. Given our current small land area in all direcions except north, I think we need an initial tight cluster of cities. Here's a suggested dot map for a tight layout at 3.x and 5.x that takes reasonable advantage of the available fresh water, avoids building on bonuses, and snags the horses and furs:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Scoutx_B_Dotmap3.jpg

Green dots are radius 3.x, Yellow dots are 4.x, pink are horses/furs.

When we move this core's center north with a Palace move or FP we can thin it out if we like, or leave it as is for a while.

I haven't studied the map yet regarding city locations. If we are going to hand build FP (saving a GLeader to relocate Palace in Han terrirtory) in our initial core should we plan our rings around our proposed FP city? Here is some wisdom on the FP that akots bestowed on our team in SGOTM2. ....

We built on a RCP3/6/9 in our core and later rushed a new Palace in captured lands that provided a RCP5/8 rings.
As I said in my previous dissertation, you don't need RCP around the FP in the sense of ensuring that all cities are on rings. The tight build conclusion is correct, though. If the cities on my dot map were around teh FP, instead of teh palace, then a palace elsewhere with its first ring at RCP 5 would set all the cities in my propsed placement at corruption rank one.

Until we move/create new palace positions we need to have RCP around our current palace, and that's what my dot map seeks to achieve. it uses 3/5 instead of 3/6/9 because of our tight space, but it's otherwise similar to your example. Except if we jump the palace to an AI placement of 5/8, *all* my dots would be at rank 1 relative to a FP in Karakorum (which won't happen). I suspect we could hand build an FP in the north western green dot, near the horses, and continue with a tight pattern north of this city. [EDIT] In that scenario, all my dots would fall within rank 1 relative to a Palace ring of 5, except the two most south easterly ones. Another reason to establish and develop the northern ones before the southern ones.

[edit 2 - sorry :(] The green dot I've suggested for an FP has the disadvantage that it's not on a river. We'd need an aqueduct to grow it. I'll have to think about that, but it may be it's still the best option.

After a night's sleep:
@Grunthex: Yes, huts are a real lottery. It sounds like in your game the Han got a settler. What did you get, BTW?


As I recall, I got nothing where you got the Wheel, maps where you got 25g, and nothing where you got Mysticism. I would NOT have been the tech leader. :)

Off to another 10 hour day on a ball diamond. Knock em dead Nikof!

Request: At the end of your turn log post a quick note as to where you think the next turns should head. Example: next ten should work on setting up the settler pump, watch out for this guy headed towards this city. And make sure this city does not riot.

Side note:
What do you think about naming cities. I am bad because I am a piss poor typist. So Many times if a city name comes up that I know I will have to type a bunch of times and it ends up being 17 letters long with no vowels, I may end up calling it Mistic Villiage or Mistberg or something. Any complaints to this?

Sorry if my ramblings at the end of my log weren't clear, but that was my intention. The Han warrior is mentioned in my last turn description, but the rest is all in the final paragraph.

I prefer to let the software name the cities as it adds something to the atmoshere of the game. If you want names to be easy for you to type you'll have to dictate some rules on what you like typing (max length, letter combinations ????) that we can all follow. Unless we all do it, any name you avoid will keep being offered until someone like me just uses it, and you still may find yourself typing it later.

As a tip, you might try keeping a scratch text document containing frequently used names and phrases, open it up while you are writing your turnlog and copy paste from it.

Maybe a better title (rather than Power is Knowledge) would be Ignorance is Strength? (Just as slavery = freedom)
;)

Thanks, Yom, but I think our title is superbly appropriate. We don't plan on being ignorant. We expect to become very knowlegeable through the use of strength, courage, cunning, astute trading, and large amounts of luck. We've already demontrated the latter two methods. Opportunities for the first three will come soon enough.

Your post was fine Alan. My earlier comment was more for the team in general. Moves can seem strange without a short discription of what your thoughts were. I quite enjoyed your "ramblings". As far as the cities go we can keep them as is but don't be suprised if I slaughter the spellings or start to give them knicknames. I've never played the mongols so I dont know how bad they get. IMO the Aztec are the worst. can you say "Alex I'd like to buy a vowel"

Yes, Aztec names are bad, but you will probably reconsider that when we get to founding Dalandzagdad... :eek: I would even go as far as suggesting that we include as an additional variant rule that we have to name it at least once in each turnlog :p

I totally agree with settling the closer wheat first. Without direct access to the game, I had completely overlooked that KK does not need it. Just imagine, TWO settler factories in the same start... :wow:

The southernmost city, with the wheat and the fish, can probably be a worker factory without requiring irrigation.

Alan's proposal for the FP may indeed be the best option, in spite of requiring an Aqueduct. I'm not too happy about moving the Palace either, but if we don't get an early leader we may be well forced to do that. We'll see, I guess :)

Dot map looks real nice. Definately agree on building northward towards Han first, maybe even trying to grab the two northern yellow dots as cities number 4 & 5 before competing the inner ring (city 3 is the green dot N N from KK).

Okay, finally installed. Bit of a pain-didn't install cleanly on top of my existing GOTM package. Don't know why, but installed fresh from the cd with all updates and it works now.

I shadowed AlanH's game with moderate accuracy. His Wheel hut was deserted for me - glad you were playing, Alan! But I got Masonry from the northern hut, so my luck isn't all bad.

Dot map looks real nice. Definately agree on building northward towards Han first, maybe even trying to grab the two northern yellow dots as cities number 4 & 5 before competing the inner ring (city 3 is the green dot N N from KK).
Fully agree, I might even have been tempted to go for the northern yellow dots before the green by the wheat, but I will follow the advice of wiser heads. I guess we want 2 settler factories sooner because we have a lot of ground to fill. Big island, contact with other civs - sorry for doubting you, mad-bax!

Q1a: I'm very tempted to move the scout E onto the mountain, to get a look at Han territory. Han is polite, so this seems like a risk worth taking. However, I've been burned before by "provoking" other civs early on Emperor. Thoughts?

Q1b: Not sure I see the need to move Warrior2 back home. Han is polite, we have Warrior1, Ta-tu could make a barracks in 5 and warrior in another 2 if need be. I'm tempted to scout him north a bit more.

Q1c: Since I'm scouting near Han - it may be possible to do some mild blocking of Han settler units, just to slow him down a bit. But someone declared war on me in a recent game immediately after I did that. Is it a dire provocation, coincidence, or just not worth the effort?

Q2: Rocks? Okay. :rolleyes: Do they do anything like block ships, or are they just a bonus?

Q3: Is naval movement different than vanilla? I can't keep track of the rule mods.

Comment: I've found the discussion of FP corruption and "disc placement (tm)" very helpful, hadn't quite picked this up from the War Academy. <thinks about how much more productive GOTM32 could have been...>
Thanks!

nikof
P=K!

maybe even trying to grab the two northern yellow dots as cities number 4 & 5 before competing the inner ring (city 3 is the green dot N N from KK).

Agreed on early city order. Those are all high food sites with FP in their radius. If we can road the tile north from Karakorum to city 3 ASAP then settlers will only take 2 turns to reach the next two sites north of there. One road on the tile north of city 3 connects both those nrthern sites, and one more road on the furs brings us a lux.

I might even have been tempted to go for the northern yellow dots before the green by the wheatTwo issues here - food and speed. The green dot gets access to the 4 ftp wheat, soon to be 5 fpt. The yellow dots don't, so they will be at 2 ftp until irrigated. Settlers would take four turns to reach those yellow dots. A settler can reach the green dot in 2, and a worker can then add roads to put the yellow dots only two turns away from Karakorum. If you work out the total food production difference between the two options it's quite significant over the next 15 turns or so. [EDIT] Repeat the mantra: "Food is Power, and Power is Knowledge".

We're not threatened for space by the Han in those next turns, and they have a nearer source of furs and horses, so they are not going to come after ours. Settling the furs earlier won't get them hooked up earlier, in fact it may take longer. So there's no compelling reason to walk a long way to settle.

Q1a: Scouts aren't seen as a threat. I wouldn't worry about it. Priority for the scout (our only one at the moment) is to fill in the map as much as possible so that we have valuable map to trade when Map Making arrives. If the mountain move gets us a lot more visible tiles then go for it.

Q1b: You are probably right. I tend to try to slow the AI down whenever I get the chance, and this was one such opportunity. But I think you're right, there's little point in racing the Han warrior back to base. A single warrior won't go for us, and we will have a road between the two cities in another few turns anyway so our existing warrior can occupy whichever the warrior chooses to approach.

Q1c: Coincidence I should think. Blocking units seems not to be considered provocative. I don't think the AI has that level of intelligence. It just looks at what moves it can make now and makes one. If you block it will just move back again without realising what's happening. I'm not sure you have enough resources to do it, though, and you might end up just delaying our own progress on exploring.

Q2: Rocks are just a bonus. 1 spt, and maybe 1gpt IIRC. Check the Civilopedia. Don't bother with them until we can build a harbour, as it's still only 1 fpt and we have more powerful tiles.

Q3: Dunno. We'll have to check with m-b or Scout. Are you lurking?

Good luck, nikof...

Just as Alan said :hatsoff: -we should chase nearby food-rich locations with the highest priority.

We should also take the fist opportunity to build another couple workers, either in Karakorum or in another city.
If our target for the game is a military victory of some kind, we can start building warriors, archers or horsemen in any city that is not busy with settlers/workers or granaries/barracks.

Good luck from me too ;)

Here we go.

Turn 0, 3000 BC:
AlanH left everything shipshape, no surprise there! We are at +8 gold with 20% lux.
My goals are to set up the settler factor, MM well, and keep exploring.
Mentally toy with MM ideas to get a faster growth or granary in KK, but can't improve on AlanH's plan. :)

IBT - Han Warrior heads west.

Turn 1, 2950
Warrior N.
Scout E to mountain in Han territory. Sees size 2 Beijing, on a river, with 2 furs (one roaded), a Warrior in city, a worker working.
F4 (should do this first...) - no new techs, Han and Korea both have a second city.
F1 - all's well.

IBT - Wu Ti politely disturbed by troop build-up, I apologize and bow as I back out of the room. Han Warrior South towards us, disappears into fog.

Turn 2, 2900
F4 - nothing of interest.
Warrior N.
Scout S, SW to fill in black spot since he may not pass that way again soon. He'll go North, West of Han borders after that, and may meet Warrior1 up North.
Ta-tu Worker completes road. Goes SE to mine for another useful square, after that he may work/road the square SW of KK, while other Worker heads N. Other option was to cross river, irrigate & road towards horses. But rivers slow us down right now, and since we're in REX mode we probably don't need horses for a little while yet. Comments welcome. (later edit - but rivers give gold, too...)
F1 - the land is strong.

Turn 3, 2850
F4 - nada
Warrior N to North coast. Will check NE just to see if there's a land bridge. Time-consuming and not too likely, but it's pretty important info IMHO.
Scout S, SW. Pretty furs abound.
Ta-tu will grow in one. Put governor on "emphasize production". NOTE - also checked that as default for new cities.
F1 - Mongolia, love it or leave it!

Turn 4, 2800
F4 - nada
Scout W, N
Tatu has grown to pop2. Ah, can't finish barracks next turn because 1s lost to corruption. Still, I want it faster and will sacrifice 1food to MM forest this turn only. (Breaks F=P rule).
KK - MM an i-FP to get one slower pop growth while Granary completes, and an extra gold.
F1 - Mongolia 'tis of thee.

IBT - Han warrior reappears N of our wheat square, as expected. Han still polite, not expecting any monkey business.
KK nice full Granary! -> Settler

Turn 5, 2750
F4 nada (I'm gonna keep writing this, because it makes me remember to check!)
Scout NN, Warrior NE - peninsula ends.
Return Ta-tu to 2f.
KK about to grow. MM from wheat to iFP, so get an extra gold and only waste 1f. This city may be a MM dream, but I can't squeeze any more shields from it usefully. Should get 8+10 from chop next turn, so can have 3-turn settler anyway.

IBT- Han respects borders, goes SE. Chop done.

Turn 6, 2710
F4-0
Warr SW, Scout NN to hill.
Ta-tu will have a Warrior in 5 (can hurry if need to), growth in 9.
KK - huh, governor must have not put new citizen on forest, only have 16s in bin. I think I can do Settler in 3, with 4 pop after, or settler in 2, with 3.5 pop after. Taking option B for faster expansion. That means I'm going to speed up the Warrior in TT to 3 turns too, with that Han lurking.
Set worker SW of KK to road, to have defense network, noting that there's a river between KK and next proposed city anyway.
F1-lux 30%, so we're only +7.

IBT-Han Warr W

Turn 7, 2670
F4-0
Warr W, pretty sea-shell. Scout NE, hill.
KK - MM to 6s (no waste), +4f.
TT-leave alone.
F1 okay.

IBT-Han Warr W, KK Settler -> Settler, and new contact!
Baekje is Polite, has 1 gold, 1 city, and is 4 techs behind us.

Turn 8, 2630
F4-0
Warr W, sees new Han borders. Scout N.
Settler N from KK, with Warr escort.
TT - MM to Warr in 1, +2f.
KK - MM to +4f for growth, 4s. Not sure if need to apologize for faster early Settler, but delay in factory.
lux still 30%, because moved Warrior from KK.

Turn 9, 2590
TT - Warr -> Warr
F4-0
Warr in TT to KK along newly completed road for MP. lux to 20%.
In the North, Scout N, NW to hill. Warr NW.
Worker near TT finishes mine, set to road for gold as am now working that square.
KK - return to +5f, only 4s.
Worker to KK.
Settler + Warr N

IBT - Han Warr disappears N.

Turn 10, 2550
F4-0
Kazan founded! Great name! Well, I did something right. Fortify Warr there.
In the North, Warr N (spots Shanghai and a veteran Warr), Scout NE, NE. Terrain mostly tundra now, but will fill in map.
Fortify vet Warr in KK.
Set Kazan to work the wheat for now, since it doesn't really help KK get a faster settler, I think.
Lux remains at 20%.

Finishing thoughts:
Ta-tu is building a Warrior, but may be better off switching to a Worker. I'll leave that decision to the next player. Maybe KK should push out a Worker instead, after the next Settler?
KK has a little way to go yet before becoming an efficient factory, with Kazan using the Wheat. Mining the hills and irrigating the other FP would probably do it, I haven't run the numbers.
Feel free to reverse any of the MM or production decisions!

Sorry for not posting a screenshot, I'm getting pressure to get off the computer and do something useful. If anyone else has time that would be great - but I wanted to get the save posted as soon as I could.

Eagerly awaiting commentary,
nikof

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Temujin,2550BC.SAV

I got it -downloaded in a flash while leaving the office ;)
(btw, remember to zip the saves, this will help prevent our file from getting corrupt during transfers)

I will read the log this evening (CET) and post tomorrow morning. I might even be able to play during the day (yeah, that's a long story...)

---Roster---

- AlanH
- Nikof: Just done
- Karasu: almost playing
- Grunthex: warming up
- DJMGator13
- Mistfit

Go Karasu!

Good stuff, nikof. :thumbsup: I've had a look at the save, made some notes on the log below, and done a couple of screenies. You can click this one to get to the close-up of Mongolia, or right click it to open the other in another window.

@Karasu: During the whole of the SGOTM2 sequence, we had 13 teams, 64 players and 346 non-zipped .sav files exchanged via the SGOTM server. There have been a few problems with players' installations, but none were due to corrupt saves as far as I am aware. I was watching this carefully, as I was aware of the theory that .sav files could get corrupted. If you know of any that were, I'd be interested to hear of them, and perhaps have a look at them. I must say I've always been suspicious of the theory as the upload protocols are pretty well protected, with error checking on every packet and sequence numbering to ensure that packets don't get lost or out of order.

Ta-tu Worker completes road. Goes SE to mine for another useful square, after that he may work/road the square SW of KK, while other Worker heads N. Other option was to cross river, irrigate & road towards horses. But rivers slow us down right now, and since we're in REX mode we probably don't need horses for a little while yet. Comments welcome. (later edit - but rivers give gold, too...)
I think I would have prioritised the development of the settler factory. It can do 5 fpt now, but it needs a shield or two more to get to four turn rate.
Tatu has grown to pop2. Ah, can't finish barracks next turn because 1s lost to corruption. Still, I want it faster and will sacrifice 1food to MM forest this turn only. (Breaks F=P rule).
KK - MM an i-FP to get one slower pop growth while Granary completes, and an extra gold. :goodjob: Completing the barracks one turn early is good.
Set worker SW of KK to road, to have defense network, noting that there's a river between KK and next proposed city anyway.Good point, and you should very rarely leave a tile without roading it first. Leaving it costs a move you'll have to make later to get back and road it. Roading it while you're there may imrove mobility later, and should give us more gold.
new contact!
Baekje is Polite, has 1 gold, 1 city, and is 4 techs behind us.
This is interesting. We should discuss whether we want to gift them some techs to get them to help with research and/or to reduce future tech prices. Do you know how we were contacted?
Settler N from KK, with Warr escort.We've not seen any barbs, and the AI is very unlikely to attack an unescorted settler at this early stage, so I don't usually bother.
Sorry for not posting a screenshot, I'm getting pressure to get off the computer and do something useful. If anyone else has time that would be great - but I wanted to get the save posted as soon as I could.
Here you go. This image is a link to a close-up ....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ScoutX_B_2550.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ScoutX_B_2550BC_Zoom.jpg)

Thanks AlanH!


This is interesting. We should discuss whether we want to gift them some techs to get them to help with research and/or to reduce future tech prices. Do you know how we were contacted?

One of Baekje's Warriors showed up on the peninsula E of KK, the one touching our border. Went away the next turn. So Korea has some competition, which is probably another good reason to gift Baekje some techs.

I know it's a bit premature but are we thinking 3rd ring at 8 or 9?

Also we may want our FP on this Island it seems to be quite large. Bejing might make a nice spot for it dependant on how much more land there is to the north.

Edit: Korea has 2 workers for sale right now

I know it's a bit premature but are we thinking 3rd ring at 8 or 9?

Also we may want our FP on this Island it seems to be quite large. Bejing might make a nice spot for it dependant on how much more land there is to the north.

Edit: Korea has 2 workers for sale right now
Well spotted :thumbsup:. I wonder if they are at war with Baekje or if it's barbs? :hmm:
We should definitely buy those workers !!

I was about to do this :suicide: in shame and embarrassment - but I don't see the workers! I even downloaded my upload, and don't see them in the F4 screen. :confused:

I was about to do this :suicide: in shame and embarrassment - but I don't see the workers! I even downloaded my upload, and don't see them in the F4 screen. :confused:

Yeah! I took Mistfit's word for it, but I've reloaded 2550 BC and there are no workers for sale here either! Equally :confused:

I was about to do this :suicide: in shame and embarrassment - but I don't see the workers! I even downloaded my upload, and don't see them in the F4 screen. :confused:

Don't think they are actually available. They show up on the Trades tab in MapStat but not in the game. I have noticed this in some of my other games as well. I was going to pose that question/issue over in the MapStat thread.

Here is a look at an RCP8 & 9, with Alan's green & yellow dots included. Looks like only 1 river city either ring. RCP9 puts us closer to the lamb, sheep & a horse but all can be grbbed in a culturally expanded RCP8 city as well.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jump1B_01.jpg

The next cities after yellow and green will be rank 11 or greater. If we get there in time we could even settle a couple more across the water at RCP 5, making the next ring rank 13 or even 14. I don't know what the OCN for this map is, but I suspect those are all going to be pretty corrupt, so we should probably ignore RCP in that ring and concentrate on finding good locations that will become productive when we build an FP. If we can find a few locations with water that wll be within radius 5 of the proposed FP, then those should be our next sites.

Incidentally, looking at this shot, the southern yellow dot should prolly be one tile SW of its current location to grab more territory.

My 2¢ ;)

Hmm... Dianthus is so rarely wrong.. sorry for the excitement


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/workers_for_sale.jpg

Incidentally, looking at this shot, the southern yellow dot should prolly be one tile SW of its current location to grab more territory.


The yellow dot is currently on a desert tile, while the SW tile is a BG. If we leave it there we get +2f+1s from that desert (which is why you probably selected that tile originally :) ).

Agree on the RCP issue, after 2 rings I usually build in best location because of the corruption.

EDIT: I have posted the Trade tab/worker question in the MapStat thread.

I agree, Dianthus is usually reliable.

No problem, and no harm done, except maybe a short term blip in nikof's heart rate ;). It's all useful information, and you shouldn't hold it back. We now know that we need to cross check important data like that in the game itself.

The yellow dot is currently on a desert tile, while the SW tile is a BG. If we leave it there we get +2f+1s from that desert (which is why you probably selected that tile originally :) )..
Undoubtedly :thumbsup:. It's not so clear in the RCP plot. I need to remind *myself* to consult the game itself before making rash statements :p

Thank you Gator for bringing that up to Dianthus. It may help me from making silly statements like that in the future....but I doubt it.

Note to team: I believe I have just made my last turns in the SGOTM so I will be spending more of my efforts here. Now if I could just figure out a way to never work again, I'd be all set.

Now if I could just figure out a way to never work again, I'd be all set.Hint: Retire. It works for me ;)

Ya know I would but... I enjoy things like eating..driving...buying the latest civ title....minor things like that..so in the forseeable future this joe will be working his arse off 70-80hrs per week hoping to shorten the years left to retirement.

Hmm... Dianthus is so rarely wrong.. sorry for the excitement

That's not true, I'm often wrong, I just don't normally get caught :).

Anyway, there seems to be a situation when workers can't be traded that I didn't know about. You'll find that you also can't trade a worker to Korea at the moment if you had a worker in your capital. I won't tell you why yet since you're pretty early on and it might constitute a spoiler, but I'll see what I can do about fixing CRpMapStat at some point.

You've reminded me that eqWorkers can't be traded on GOTM. It's a deliberate move to stop people crippling the AI early on, and an attempt to emulate the effect of the big increase in worker trade pricing in PtW. Is that what's throwing CRpMapStat off?

You've reminded me that eqWorkers can't be traded on GOTM. It's a deliberate move to stop people crippling the AI early on, and an attempt to emulate the effect of the big increase in worker trade pricing in PtW. Is that what's throwing CRpMapStat off?Unfortunately, no. :( The workers are 'real' workers, not eQ versions @Alan: Delete this if its considered 'spoiler'. Dianthus and I have a common interest in solving this little issue! :D

I do not consider your post a spoiler because I have had it happen in a random C3C epic game (without GOTM mods).

I have a save of that game when the worker shows on MapStat if you want it.

I guess the bottom line for us in this game is that the Koreans probably really do have two workers in their capital currently, and that probably means they are under threat from barbs or another civ. We know the Baekje are on the same land mass as them. So the Baekje could be trying to catch up in techs - they are three down currently, or 'regionally intense' barbs could be swarming all over them both :D

Do your capitals have to be connected by land (or have some sea-faring advances discovered) in order to trade them?

Do your capitals have to be connected by land (or have some sea-faring advances discovered) in order to trade them?

Someone posted in the MapStat thread that you have to have cities on the same landmass to be able to trade/buy workers. It's not dependent on an established trade route. The epic game I mentioned above this was exactly the case. I was in 1210AD and trading luxury items, but I could not buy a worker because I did not have a city on the other landmass.

I'm told this is not the case, and I'm pretty sure I've traded workers across water that was not tradeable over, if you see what I mean. But I wonder if you at least have to know Mapmaking before you can do this :hmm:

I do not consider your post a spoiler because I have had it happen in a random C3C epic game (without GOTM mods).

I have a save of that game when the worker shows on MapStat if you want it.
If you could, then that would be great. :thumbsup:

E-mail to: gotm@civfanatics.net

with detail of who has workers.

Thanks! :)

I don't really know about this, but rest assured that I won't let foreign workers pass unnoticed ;)

I had a few minutes yesterday night to look at the game, and I wanted to check our settler factories.

Karakorum looks ok as soon as we have mined the two bonus hills and a grassland, using 3 irrigated FP as well to reach +5 fpt.
Shields should be ok with the extra ones coming from the forest upon pop growth (if I am correct, it was getting late at night and my brain has tends to stop working without advance warning...).


The situation in Kazan looks a bit more complicated, at least at a first glance.
It seems a bit short of shields, so all I can easily see is a two-turns workers factory at size 5 (with granary): irrigated FP+wheat will give the +5 food per turn we need. Then two pairs of irrigated FP + Forest will bring the spt to a total of 5 (1 comes from the city centre).

I could not find a way to turn it into a fast settler factory as it is -what I saw, on the other hand, is that if we moved Kazan 1 tile West, it would have access to:
Irrigated Wheat on FP: +3 fpt, 0 spt
Irrigated Sheep on Plains: +2 fpt, 2 spt
Forest: -1 fpt, 2 spt
At size 4, add an irrigated plains for +5 fpt, 6 spt
At size 5, add another one for +5 fpt, 7 spt
At size 6, add yet another one for +5 fpt, 8 spt (would neet at least a forest chop).

So another 4-turns settler factory seems feasible in this case, either between pop 4 and pop 6 (with a similar mechanism to the previous case) or between 5 and 7.
I am not sure this is correct either: anyone cares to cross-check?

That seems correct to me Karasu but we would need a cultural expoansion to reach the FP wheat and we'd be taking the city off a river so IMO I say leave it where it is for the worker pump. My Idea was that we can do much of our expansion the old fashion way...we'll take it fom someone else.

That seems correct to me Karasu but we would need a cultural expoansion to reach the FP wheat

Nah... just stick another city near it and join up the borders.

Oops... You guys are doing great. I might have to recall the game and make it a bit harder. ;) On second thoughts.... maybe not :evil:

Good point MB. I need more coffee. Still do we need to be disbanding one of our cities this quickly in the game? This is somthing I've never been comfortable with in my personal games but I will bow to the will of more experianced players on this one.

Well, I actually don't know. Doubting of my own mental capabilities, I was looking for the comfort of someone else's checking the situation first...

If the opportunity for a second settler factory is there, we indeed have to discuss whether we really want it or not. The main points we have to understand are, in my opinion:
- is it worth moving an existing city?
- won't we have too few workers?
- how long will it take to have both factories up and running? (vs. what can we do in the meantime)

Hi Karasu,

I'm not sure the new city would be a 4-turn factory. Sheep are +2/+1, on top of Plains that's 3/2, Irrigated 4/2, -1 for Despotism is 3/2, I think. So only +1f.

And I think from working Ta-tu that we'd lose a shield to corruption [edit - the 6th shield is lost]. The new city also wouldn't be on a river.

So I'd lean towards leaving Kazan on the spot where I carefully placed it, following strong suggestions from the Jumpmasters... :mischief:

If we disband a city, don't we lose the settler who created it? So effectively losing 2pop and 30 shields?

Why abandon anything? :confused: We have one fast settler factory, and that's fine. We can use Kazan for workers, or to pop rush stuff or whatever. Two settler factories were not my original intention when I produced the dot map, I just wanted to maximise the use of our food resources - repeat the mantra ;)

In fact, I am not too keen on abandoning cities either -I only made a few Palace jumps in my life ;) and always because no better solution seemed viable.

My personal and very humble opinion is that a settler and a worker factory provide a very nice combination for a fast yet balanced expansion.

Of course, the uncommon perspective of such an opulence as *two* settler factories is quite attractive, and my doubt was whether this is a case in which we can say "we would have too many settlers...".

In the present situation, I would in any case let KK complete its settler and get a worker or two from Kazan.
I will also move the settler to complete the first semi-ring north of our capital, but I am not that KK too cannot build a worker after its settler.


P.S.: I havent' brought my laptop at work today, so I won't be able to play until this evening... :mischief: BTW, I am very tempted to retire too. If only...

Sorry for not jumping in for a bit. Mondays are crazy for me - weekends are worse.

I think we don't want to waste the time and effort to move Kazan now... one 4-turn factory should be fine, and Kazan can provide all the workers we need to make the towns powerhouses. This leaves all the other towns able to build pointy-stick scientists, taking advantage of our cheap science labs (barracks).

The only other short-term priority I can see is getting the furs hooked up -- did we ever find any other resource on the island? I'm at work and can't check it.

Just some early advance warning, shouldn't affect us this week. I'll be out of town (and out of touch!) for the next two weekends. I leave Friday right from work this week, be back late Sunday. I should have no trouble at all playing my turns after Karasu this week (that is where I'm up?). But thought you all needed to know.

No problem, Grunthex.
In any case, be ready: the unescapable laws of SGs will make it so that you will be up right when you are not able to play... especially now that you have given advance notice ;)

we'll find a way around it anyway. And I agree. Mondays are crazy. Tuesdays sometimes are even worse...

The situation in Kazan looks a bit more complicated, at least at a first glance.
It seems a bit short of shields, so all I can easily see is a two-turns workers factory at size 5 (with granary): irrigated FP+wheat will give the +5 food per turn we need. Then two pairs of irrigated FP + Forest will bring the spt to a total of 5 (1 comes from the city centre).

Agree, I played with the numbers and do not see the shields there for settler factory. But it can be a nice 2 turn worker factory at size 5 with granary (working center tile 2f/1s, wheat +4f/0s, 2iFP +6f/+0s, iPlain +2f/+1s, forest +1f+2s gives us 15f and 4s at size 5 working the mined hill on growth gives the extra 2 shields needed for worker every 2 turns).


I could not find a way to turn it into a fast settler factory as it is -what I saw, on the other hand, is that if we moved Kazan 1 tile West, it would have access to:
Irrigated Wheat on FP: +3 fpt, 0 spt
Irrigated Sheep on Plains: +2 fpt, 2 spt
Forest: -1 fpt, 2 spt
At size 4, add an irrigated plains for +5 fpt, 6 spt
At size 5, add another one for +5 fpt, 7 spt
At size 6, add yet another one for +5 fpt, 8 spt (would neet at least a forest chop).

So another 4-turns settler factory seems feasible in this case, either between pop 4 and pop 6 (with a similar mechanism to the previous case) or between 5 and 7.
I am not sure this is correct either: anyone cares to cross-check?

I think 1 west still leaves us short shields for a 4 turn factory, can do a 5 turn factory though. Also need to make sure we do it over the 4-6 growth. The 5-7 won't work because 1 West is not on a river and the city must be able to grow to size 7.

Here I come. Just a quick post before entering a silly pointless progress meeting... :ack:


Pre-turn: 2550 BC
Everything looks fine. I only change Kazan from Nomad Warrior to Worker

Turn 1 - 2100 BC
Warrior 1W
Scout 2E
Worker road

We can get pop growth and settler in KK both in two turns by borrowing the wheat from Kazan and working the second forest instead of the olives
Need to set luxury to 30% to make our people in KK happy.

No news on the diplomatic front.

IT
Chinese found Canton south-west of Beijing

Turn 2 - 2470 BC
Worker on Sheep
Warrior on hill (1NW)
Scout 2NE

IT
Ta-Tu: Nomad Warrior - Worker
Karakorum: Settler - Settler

Turn 3 - 2430 BC
Luxury back to 10%

Warrior 1SW on mountain, slowly going back home
Scout 1NE1N on another hill.
Settler sent to FP city site

IT
Nothing

Turn 4 - 2390 BC
Scout 1E1SE
Warrior 1SW
Worker completes road to Kazan. Goes to help the other one (we already have an irrigated FP available to both cities).

Ta-Tu would grow in 2 turns and build worker in 3; with one turn spent working the forest this can be made 2 and 2 turns (how neat... ;) ).

IT
Nuffin'

Turn 5 - 2350 BC
Settler reaches position
Warrior 1S
Scout 1E1SE

Surprisingly remember to restore production in Ta-Tu to have growth and worker next turn.

IT
Ta-Tu: worker - nomad warrior

Turn 6 - 2310 BC
Almarikh founded: Barracks (vetoable)
Kazan works both hills to get the worker next turn
Karakorum works the forest instead of the FP (only 1 food needed for growth next turn).

Scout: 1S1E on a hill. Looks like there is no passage to the other landmass, and I haven't found any huts...
Warrior 1SW
Worker goes from Ta-Tu to Sheep

Korea knows Iron Working, and will sell it for Mysticism and 149 gold. Let me wait one turn...

IT
Kazan: Worker - Granary (vetoable)
Karakorum back to working Flood Plains to get growth and settler in 3.

Turn 7 - 2270 BC
Scout 1SE. Coast
Warrior 1S
Worker from Kazan to build road to Almarikh.
The other three workers are mining the hill

Korea still wants Mysticism + 149 gold for IW, meaning they are probably not researching Mysticism. Let's wait a little bit to see if the Han discover it too...

Luxury to 20%

IT

Turn 8 - 2230 BC
Warrior 1S
Scout 1S1SE


IT
Ta-Tu: nomad warrior - warrior

Turn 9 - 2190 BC
Scout 1W1S
Warrior still marching south

IT
Karakorum: Settler - Settler

Turn 10 - 2150 BC
Move warrior and scout, leave settler there waiting.

Notes
The Iron Working deal is still there, I waited a bit hoping the Han would do something useful and discover a new tech, but nothing happened. We can decide to buy it or keep on waiting.

I left the settler unmoved in Karakorum, so that we are still free to send it either towards the Horses or the Furs.
Right now, I would favour the furs as settling there would allow Kazan to use those forests and get some shields, even though the furs will only be connected later.

Ta-Tu should probably build another worker after this warrior, and we may get yet another one from either Almarikh or Karakorum to complete the second group of three.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Core-ScoutX.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/World-ScoutX.jpg

Here is the save -I didn't zip it, trusting Alan's judgement ;) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Temujin_of_the_Mongols,_2150_BC.SAV)

Not quite a got it -- savegames are sort of useless at work. :)

Before I do got it, here are my opening thoughts.

I think I will be moving the settler to the furs -- horses will be nice, (almost essential for us later), but no one is going to steal them in a few turns, and the furs will have immediate benefits. Which brings me to the question I don't think we settled.

What RCP distance do we want the second ring at? 6-6.5 gets us a coastal spot between the fish and the furs. 7 would get us a coastal with a river -- but I didn't think we wanted to go that far. 6 also gets us the coastal river site due north of the horses. We need to agree on a distance before I start dropping cities. For what it's worth, my feeling is 6. If we wanted the rivers for the fur site, we could put the city in the elbow, and accept one overlapping non-expanded tile with Kazan (you have no idea how much it hurts me to say that!)

On the technology front, my feeling is to hold off pulling the trigger on Iron Working -- either someone else we know will learn it, driving down the price, or someone might learn something else, letting us buy two separate techs with Myst. Danger of course is that Korea learns Myst from someone, leaving us with nothing to trade.

I was worrying about where Kazan would get the production to complete the granary before the middle ages .. but if Fur City goes in my proposed 6.5 site, he'd have a spare forest to jack it up a bit -- though that would dent the power=food mantra. (I was presuming the new city would get the fur/forest)

Should get some work down. Thoughts?

Looks like the Law of SGs will be affecting me this weekend. I have a friend's wedding to go to in North Carolina, I'll be gone Friday thru late Sunday. I could play Monday AM also. We may need to swap my slot with either Misfit or AlanH (AlanH to keep us alternating gold & silver). I could play Thursday, if Grunthex was done, but would rather have Grunthex take his time and not feel rushed. More important to play well not fast.

Now to the game: Looks like the only luxury on our landmass is the furs. Hans should be able to grab that group of 3 furs with their next city. This game is looking like a definate war situation against the Hans for us to have anything to trade later for techs. We have plenty of horses and furs if we can control the whole island.

For the next city location should we try to grab the lamb & sheep near our western most warrior? We could send our current settler on a long journey to build on the river hill 1 tile NE of the warrior's current location. But since the lamb & sheep are bonus (not lux) resources is it worth a long trip?

Ta-Tu could also build a settler after the current warrior, then set to a worker. Kazan could also be changed to a worker prior to the granary. We do want a granary there but with only 1 shield there it will take a long time to build.

EDIT: Crossed with Grunthex's post

@Grunthex - Alan's dot map for 2nd ring was done at RCP5 and has 4 of 5 cities on rivers (meaning no aqueducts required to grow past size 6). I think Alan's sites are very good locations.

RCP5 ... :cry: This is like selling my soul! Ok... I can do it.

Ok, then my revised thoughts are to settle the coastal square SE of the furs first, then the horse site second. If I get a third settler, he'll be moving towards the spot 2 NW of Almarich, but I won't get time to settle it, so we can discuss going out in that direction the RCP9 spot near the lambs.

I'll definitely fill out at least our second triad of workers, other than that my plans are fuzzy.

Gator, you may well receive it by Thursday -- Wednesday is the calmest night of my week, and getting 10 early-game turns in should be easy. I won't make promises though, as I'd rather do them right and log them well.

RCP5 ... This is like selling my soul! Ok... I can do it.
:lol: You were warned ;)

What DJMGator said. Plus ...

The furthest south we can put a city on our landmass is at distance 5, and I don't think we want to pass up that wheat. If you go to RCP 6 in the north then the southern city will push them all out by one more corruption ranking point.

Go Grunthex :thumbsup:

Sorry for the delay, progress meetings sometimes are a nightmare and never want to end...


---Beaurocracy---

- AlanH
- Nikof
- Karasu: still off to a silly meeting, but the day is passing and the turns are done
- Grunthex: UP! :yeah:
- DJMGator13: getting ready
- Mistfit

We also have a refugee from roster C who won't be able to play C3C. If there are no objections, I'd put him in the roster two or three rounds from now.

If that's the new iBook man, welcome, and please let me know if there's anything I can do to help you get your Civ installation up and running for this game :wavey:

Ok great news...According to map stat we only have 2530 tiles left to get before domination

Settling Ideas still sound fine. 5 ring good.

A couple of questions:

I've not played GOTM mod before:

Han = China
Bajekje = ?

@Mistfit:

:nono: As I mentioned before, I, and the GOTM rules, consider using Mapstat to be cheating before you've got the full map. That's true of any tools that give you information you cannot find in the screens of the game itself.

Baekje is ... Baekje. We'll find out ;)

I appoligize I must have missed that one.

No objection to the iBook refuge, as long as he does fewer product placements than your average movie/TV show! ;)

Hey! Never mind the market share, just enjoy the style points!

@AlanH - Congrats on your SGOTM. It looks as if you beat us out for the variant by 60 years or so. I look forward to lurking your thread to see how different your strats were to ours.

Edit: I'm really interested to see how peanut pulled it off in the 1400's also

Well done you, too. Liked your ploy to get the UNbuilt near to home :thumbsup:

Due to unfortunate early misfortunes - they did volunteer for extinction and we could hardly refuse such lovely ladies - none of our neighbours lived to see the Industrial, let alone the Modern era. So Asia became the future home of the UN, and we made various efforts to get them to pre-build it. But Peanut beat us by more turns than our lead over you. I summarised it in the second spoiler, or you can read the gory detail in our thread. Look out for the self-nomination for the spammers award, and you'll recognise from my excessive posting here why we went for it :mischief:

I think we may carry away the wooden spoon. Only a couple of teams left. We went the whole game up to the modern age without going to war. And then only to wipe out Russia in 2 turns ater she built the U.N. - I know this is spam...sorry

Ok, consider this my official Got It. Playing now.

Alright, without further ado:

Pre-Turn

Diplo Check:
Korea is up Iron Working, down Mysticism, as indicated, and has 1 city.
Han is down Mysticism, has 2 cities.
Baekje is down 4 techs including Myst, and has only 1 city and a piece of gold.

I am able to turn Luxury down to 10%, saving 2 gpt. 1/1/1 citizens in KK.

Switch Kazan to a worker, due in 7 rather than a granary in 57. It is +4fpt with growth due in 2.
Settler that Karasu left heads north, heading for the planned site NE,NE of Kazan.

Turn 1 (2110 BC)

No diplomatic changes
Settler continues N, NE towards site.
Worker finishes road to Almarikh, chases Settler with plans to link up and add furs.
Warrior in Almarikh wanders over to KK, heading for the far southern point just to look across.
Western warrior goes S.
Scout goes NW, N
Drop lux to 0 for one turn gaining 2 more gpt.

IBT: Scout sees barbarian across straits on Korea's island.
China founds Nanking directly towards us from Beijing. I'm starting to think about Gator's decision to grab the sheep and lambs at an RCP9 site BEFORE going for the horses. I'll have time to think about it.

Turn 2 (2070 BC)

Scout goes W, W. Chinese have more furs up here.
Western Warrior goes NW, planning to reveal more coastal tiles for map trading purposes.
Northern worker begins roading.
Settler NE to city site.
Worker triad finishes mine on sheep hill. MM Karakorum off olives to a floodplain for growth in 1, while I think about how to get the factory up and running best. Reading thread for discussion... Ok, I need the olive hill mined, and the last non-wheat FP irrigated. Move to olive hill.
Warrior heads E,S.
Lux back to 10% (+15 instead of +18) since warrior left.
MM Ta-Tu to the unimproved grassland for a turn for one extra commerce, get warrior in 1 anyway. Wasting a shield at Almarikh, no way to MM down without giving up a food.

Diplo: No changes - mysticism deal with Korea is still 149 gold, and I'm holding out for something else to be developed. Baekje has established a new city somewhere.

IBT: Ta-tu builds Warrior->Settler
Almarikh builds Barracks->Worker
KK grows to 4.

Turn 3 (2030 BC)

Settler founds Tabriz. Starts Worker.
Worker triad begins mining olives.
Warrior heads south. Just now notice I can see Korean city borders over there.
New warrior from Ta-tu runs to KK to avoid raising Lux rate. Will hang around a bit.
West Warrior goes W.
Scout goes NW, N. Han have horses up here too.
MM KK from forest back to olives (settler in 3, growth in 3) -- mine should finish before 3, have to consider this.
MM Ta-tu back to mined grass. Settler in 10.
MM Kazan from roaded plain to furs.

Diplo: Baekje has gained Iron Working, and is still down 4 techs! Trade Masonry and The Wheel for Iron Working and his lucky gold piece. I could have traded him Masonry, Pottery and 18 gold for it, but I'd rather gain money than lose it.
There is iron west of Canton, and northwest of Beijing. Nothing practical for us. I think archers to crush or cripple the Han before he gets iron are in order.

IBT: Kazan builds worker->Granary

Turn 4 (1990 BC)

New worker heads NE to join single worker.
Coastal warrior heads south, sees a bit more bland land.
Western warrior W.
Scout S,W

Diplo: Nothing.

Turn 5 (1950 BC)
Warrior to southern land's end
Northern workers begin irrigating FP.
Western Warrior SW.
Scout SW, W.

Diplo: Nothing.

IBT: Han warrior visits Western Warrior by cows.
Karakorum finishes Settler->Warrior. I want to let it grow to 4 to start the factory properly, and I think I can do it.
Settler is going to head for RCP9 site by sheep. Ta-tu's settler can go to the horses, KK's next could go for the far horses (site 1 SE is RCP9.)

Turn 6 (1910 BC)

Wake Kazan's warrior to Almarikh to avoid needing lux slider. Realize with KK's settler I can drop lux to 0 (+20 gpt now).
Southern warrior N to get back into the MP circuit. Notice a Baekje warrior across strait.
Western warrior N.
Scout SW into Han territory to get a blackspot. Han have MORE furs in there. Geeze mad-bax. Variety?
MM KK to warrior in 2, currently at +3 fpt.
MM Kazan down to +3 fpt for more commerce (growth in 2 still)
MM Almarikh to get one more commerce while worker pops.

IBT: Cautious Han lecture me on trespassing. I apologize.

Turn 7 (1870 BC)

Almarikh's warrior back to Kazan. Lux up to 10% as Ta-Tu hits size 3.
Settler moves N of Almarikh.
Southern triad begins roading olive hills.
South Warrior N.
Northern duo head to furs, new worker will join them next turn.
Western Warrior W.
Scout N, N. Han established Tsingtao NW of Beijing by iron. Scout is heading into the NW tundra.
MM KK for more food with warrior still in 1.

Diplo: Nothing. Baekje founded a new city.

IBT: KK Warrior->Settler in 5. Growth in 1.

Turn 8 (1830 BC)

New warrior SW (heading to MP in Ta-Tu)
South Warrior N.
Kazan warrior fortifies.
Settler N.
2 northern workers start roading furs. 3rd worker joins them.
Western Warrior W.
Scout N, N.

Diplo: Han have a prisoner (worker!) for sale for 27 gold. Did we forbid ourselves these? Scanning thread. Nope. I buy the first of our many volunteer laborers. He heads north, with the intention of improving the roaded plains near Almarikh first.

IBT: That Han warrior is following me.

Turn 9 (1790 BC)

Western Warrior W.
Settler W.
Southern triad finishing, heading for last FP (non-Wheat) to perfect settler factory. They go NW, N, but will waste another turn because of all the rivers.
Warrior SW of KK goes to Ta-Tu. South Warrior goes to KK.
KK is at +5fpt, should never need to drop below, though it is using the wheat for a bit.
Kazan is using an iFP, and the furs to get some production. Once the granary is online, it can be a worker factory.
Scout goes N, N again, finding the NW coast, nothing up here.

Diplo: Nothing.

:blush: I need to apologize here. I just now saw the discussion that Alan wanted our third ring out at 11 or further -- I haven't done anything to wreck that yet, but had I realized that, I could have settled that settler by now. I won't move him on my last turn, so Gator can either go with my RCP9 thoughts, or with Alan's. We should discuss this.

Turn 10 (1750 BC)

Western Warrior NW.
Workers to FP south of Kazan.
Warrior in KK crosses N, intending to head to Tabriz when it grows next turn.
Scout E (follow coast around towards home).

And I am done! I don't think I did anything glaringly bad. Nothing spectacular either. Feedback welcome.

Pass-down notes:

Han just developed writing. Will trade it for IW and 302 gold, or Myst +246. Strangely (to me), he'd need Myst + 10gpt +67gold for it. Seems he'd prefer straight cash. Maybe he's hostile. I'd rather not see us give him IW, the odds of him noticing the Korean or the Baekje are slim, since the AI won't watch the straits.

The settler hasn't moved, as per my last turns notes.

You may want to MM Kazan for more food, instead of the faster granary. That's not my strong point (does it make sense to grow and then whip instead?)

The warrior in the southwest, and the scout are both heading clockwise to scout out the coast. At which point they can go home.

Almarikh has a warrior next turn, you'll want to MM back the sheep, I went for commerce this turn.

Ta-Tu really needs some worker turns-- it could be our main unit-pump for a bit.
Tabriz will grow next turn, the warrior south of Kazan can reach Tabriz to MP. Once Tabriz finishes the worker, I was thinking another barracks town (with potential forestry to speed it up) to make units.

We should have furs online very soon -- all these MP will be almost unneeded. Time to think about archers, or hooking up the nearby horses and some horsemen, to crush Han before he figures out how metal works. I think I'd prefer archers -- they'll upgrade to Khorchin for us. Mobile artillery/attackers rolled into one.

I'd attach a screenshot here, if someone would kindly suggest a shareware editing program. Something that could convert to .jpg, resize, and let me add dots and notes would be great! Don't say Paint.

Here's a quick pick of our empire.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jump1B_02.jpg

Should we backtrack the settler to the RCP5 hill or continue him on to the lamb & sheep?

I should be able to play tomorrow. So post any comments.

@Grunthex - The save you uploaded is correct but it has the wrong date listed in the file name, but it is the 1750BC save. Also what's wrong with paint. That is what I have been using. :)

Diplo: Baekje has gained Iron Working, and is still down 4 techs! Trade Masonry and The Wheel for Iron Working and his lucky gold piece. I could have traded him Masonry, Pottery and 18 gold for it, but I'd rather gain money than lose it.Good trading :thumbsup:

There is iron west of Canton, and northwest of Beijing. Nothing practical for us. I think archers to crush or cripple the Han before he gets iron are in order.Or horses. It's a long way to China.

:blush: I need to apologize here. I just now saw the discussion that Alan wanted our third ring out at 11 or further

Not me! Where? When? I said no to RCP outside our five ring because they'll all be corrupt to a significant extent. The emphasis once we've built the two rings we have identified it to build on sites that can grow now and be productive later, if we build an FP in Almarikh. With a Palace in Beijing, say, with it's nearest town at radius 5, all towns at 5 or nearer from Almerikh would then be at minimum corruption. So I recommend we look for high food sites within radius 5 of Almerikh and use them for workers or pop rushing horses.

Han just developed writing. Will trade it for IW and 302 gold, or Myst +246. Strangely (to me), he'd need Myst + 10gpt +67gold for it. Seems he'd prefer straight cash. Maybe he's hostile.No. They always add about 10% to gpt to insure against possible breach of the deal, or as interest. I'd rather not see us give him IW, the odds of him noticing the Korean or the Baekje are slim, since the AI won't watch the straits. Agreed we should trade Myst. I doubt if it will delay his Iron for long though. He'll be working on it now in all probability. But Myst will speed the path to Monarchy, which we'd like asap.

I think I'd prefer archers -- they'll upgrade to Khorchin for us. Mobile artillery/attackers rolled into one.Horses are far beter now. Khorchin don't come along for a while, but we need our best attack unit now if we plan to do some enforced tech and iron trading with Han. Horses can get to him faster than archers and they can retreat. If we built archers now they'd mostly die before they upgraded.

Good turns Grunthex

http://www.irfanview.com/

I use this for resizing. For paint I use a bought program.

Edit: I vote for getting our rings set up before moving out to get other space. So fill in our RCP 5 then move out in a OCP fashion from there

Looks good! :thumsup: Good trading with Baekje (btw, Baekje first appeard in GOTM24; they belong to Korean history).

I agree with completing the distance-5 ring to the north -with a new priority on the Horses town now that we know that Iron will not be available for a while; it would also be nice to settle those few cities south of KK to complete our core.

And, of course, start planning our attack on the Han.
I would favour Horsemen too, both for the immediate survivability and for the future upgrade.
So, a first sketchy idea could be:
- Stop building warriors: there is no short-term use for them; we will most probably get back to them when the MA approach and we want to use that upgrade path.
- Hook the horses and start building chariots; cross our collective fingers hoping someone discovers Horseback Riding in a reasonable time.
- We can build a few Archers as a backup in case HR is not available and we decide that a strike on the Han is absolutely necessary. As Alan said, we can expect only few of them to survive to the future upgrade.

A horsemen-based attack would be my preferred option too, in any case.

--- Roster ---

- AlanH
- Nikof
- Karasu
- Grunthex: done
- DJMGator13: UP
- Mistfit: warming up

I also alerted the iMac refugee... Expect to see him pop into the thread one of these days.

I think I see the source of confusion. I wrote:

The next cities after yellow and green will be rank 11 or greater.
That's (corruption) RANK 11, not RCP RADIUS 11. I was trying to emphasise that RCP probably won't do us a lot of good out there. Once we get to corruption rank 11 there's not a lot of difference between 11, 12, 13 etc, so it becomes more important to place cities to grab good food (food is not subject to corruption). Then, once we get to an FP and Disc City Placement it's no longer important to keep cities at equal radius, we just want a good number of them to be at least as close to the FP as the Palace is to its nearest city.

Here's a possible dot map showing the towns we haven't settled yet (green and yellow) and some blue locations that are radius 5 or less from Almerikh. We have plenty of work to do before we start on the blue ones ;)

Remember that any city that Han puts down will be ours some time, and represents one less settler we have to find. Don't fret about grabbing resources that we'd take a long time to hook up and may not make good use of anyway due to corruption. Doing that would just detract from our efforts to build our own core infrastructure and strength.

My plan for expansion would be as follows:

Ring five cities to the north:
Settle these next. Which one 1st dependent on where the settler is coming from. Although I would prolly go for the horse city 1st.

#4 and #5 cities: Finish up our 3 ring. I also think I would plan on an irrigation project to bring water to the south from Ta-Tu

6th City: Finish up our 5th ring.

After that go after the highest population possible cities.

I like the idea of letting others build our cities for us.:satan:

Workers: My plan for workers is to 1st connect all cities, and maximize unit movement between cities. 2nd connect any resources and lux. 3rd improve our core and work out.

I know that you guys know this stuff. I’m writing it to get feedback to see if my thought process is correct, to improve my game
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/dottie1.jpg

Agree on all except the irrigation project. I think I'd leave that until we are nearer to Monarchy. We'd have to irrigate 4 tiles, three of which don't do anything for us yet. That's 16 worker turns to add one fpt.

Oh, yes. Horses next. We need to start building our mounted research and iron exploration team.

[EDIT] Re prioriies, I'd still put food higher priority than anything else, as that's what gets us everything else. That means getting those flood plains irrigated. Roads are important, but if we road any tile we walk over then the network should happen.

Good points, Mistfit. I will try to elaborate a bit on these...

- Settle first the closest spot to our wandering settler.
- Second spot would be, imho too, the horses. This can be the settler from Ta-Tu.
We can then start building chariots rather than warriors. We could build a couple of Archers in the meantime, I see no point in having more warriors, or defensive units for that matter. ;)
- At this point, we could go for your '5th' spot, then '6th' and '4th' in any order.

The reasoning here is: Kazan has no more workable forests, so settling north of it won't improve its shield output -that is, the border expansion we get from founding the new city won't be too useful for our core. (EDIT: Of course it would be for the city itself...).

It is therefore more efficient to close our first ring.
As you say, bringing irrigation from Ta-Tu is probably the best way. Founding in '5th' will shorten our path to irrigating the southern wheat considerably.
This means that our worker need to move towards Ta-Tu, stopping for the necessary improvements along the way, and proceed irrigating where you marked, cross the new city and on southwards.

The improvements we need along the way south are probably the wheat on FP -which may not be a 'must', but since we are there... -and mining the grassland next to KK to turn it into a 4-turn settler factory at last.

A second group of three workers, we could mine a hill within reach of Kazan to let it get a few more shields, and proceed with improving Almarikh and our northwestern area.

My official got it. I'll start playing in about an hour.

I'll back the settler up the one tile to the RCP5 location. Looks like 2 settlers are near completion to get our horse city up.

Agreed we should trade Myst. I doubt if it will delay his Iron for long though. He'll be working on it now in all probability. But Myst will speed the path to Monarchy, which we'd like asap.

Since Hans are probably researching IW after I trade for MYST should I try to get our money back by trading him the IW?

Founding in '5th' will shorten our path to irrigating the southern wheat considerably. True, I'd forgotten abou that city. But that means we certainly shouldn't irrigate or road in that direction until we are nearly ready to settle that city, as we mustn't waste any worker turns on the city tile. I still think irrigating to the wheat is a waste of turns, however, as you are irrigating two tiles that can't benefit for a while yet.

My official got it. I'll start playing in about an hour.

I'll back the settler up the one tile to the RCP5 location. Looks like 2 settlers are near completion to get our horse city up.



Since Hans are probably researching IW after I trade for MYST should I try to get our money back by trading him the IW?
I'm not sure. I haven't d/led the save. Can we tell how much he values it? If he doesn't have enough cash for it then we could wait for the price to fall, or for his reserves to increase, until he does (ie when we can't take him for all he's got). If we do that the only danger is, if he meets the Baekje, we lose the deal.

Yes, this is what I mean too.
I haven't really made any calculation on turns needed and such, but the general idea was to have our worker group (and not our entire workforce) move southwards from the furs improving tiles along the way, so that it should reach Ta-Tu by the time we are beginning settlement of the southern area.

---

Gator, you are probably right regarding IW. You can try to check their offer for IW in consecutive turns to see if it decreases, just to make sure.

Can we tell how much he values it? If he doesn't have enough cash for it then we could wait for the price to fall, or for his reserves to increase, until he does (ie when we can't take him for all he's got). If we do that the only danger is, if he meets the Baekje, we lose the deal.

Based on the turnlog: "Han just developed writing. Will trade it for IW and 302 gold, or Myst +246." I'd say he values MYST higher than IW. Which is strange because TechCalc shows IW is worth more than MYST. Is it safe to assume he is researching IW currently? Would the better trade be the IW for 302gold and then sell him MYST at a monopoly price and get back hopefully half the gold?

The Hans only have 38 gold but if we trade for writing will give him alot of gold. KOR is down MYST but only has 25 gold. BAE is down POT & MYST but have 0gold.

TechCalc? Do tell! I figured there must be a utility like this around somewhere, but haven't come across it yet.

Nice playing Grunthex, and have fun DJMGator!

I have no ideas to add, other than that I fully agree with the Horse plan.

Yeah, I'd say that clinches that he's researching iron. I must say I'm very bad at knowing what techs are worth, so please check anything I say in that respect. Where is TechCalc? If it's a PeeCee utility I guess that's why I'm not up to speed.

I've just d/loaded the file and had a peek. The iron is a looong way from his main cities. Knowing the AI it'll take them forever to hook it up. Sometimes they never do ....

:hmm: I don't think it makes any difference which order you do the trades in, the net cost of Writing will be 89 gold if we give him Myst and IW as well. The only way to make it cheaper is to wait for Writing to show up somewhere else, so that we're not paying monoply money for it. But equally we could lose our monopoly price for Myst as well, and for sure the value of IW is falling as he researches it. I thnk my vote is to trade both our techs + 89 gold for Writing, but I'd be interested in Karasu's take on this. I'm here to learn as well ;)

My comments on the irrigation project were for down the road when we settle city 5 and 6. Also, once we are out of despotism for the irrigation to the wheat. I think some of your comments on my plan will be very helpful.

I thnk my vote is to trade both our techs + 89 gold for Writing, but I'd be interested in Karasu's take on this. I'm here to learn as well ;)

I think that is a good plan. I'm finishing up my turns in another SG and will play this one later. So I'll see if Karasu has any different ideas.

Here is a link to TechCalc (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=38631) it's set up for CivIII, PTW, C3C and the individual conquests within C3C. Not sure if it's PC only.

These discussions are the reason I love SGs... :D ...it almost looks like we were back at SG GOTM23 which is probably the one I enjoyed the most.

And the learning -I am here to learn too, certainly not to teach (as you probably know by the amount of unrestrained brainstorming I let myself into... :D ).

Regarding Tech trading... it's a nice question. This is my first experience with the 'no research' restriction, which does remove one degree of freedom from our choices.

In particular, I am not sure that we want to speed up the tech pace much -quite probably, for a military win, we would want the research to stop at the beginning of the middle ages.
Beside the tech pace, actually, we have to worry about how to steer the AI's research in the direction we prefer -by carefully trading and/or gifting techs, which is not going to be trivial.

In this sense, we should probably try to make as many contacts as soon as possible. Which means MapMaking, which in turn means that we want Writing to be around.

This, together with the fact the Han are most likely researching IW right now (I'd bet on it too), would prompt us to make full use of its trading value and get Writing right now.

Waiting for another AI to research Writing will loose us Iron Working, and I am not sure that the price drop of Writing at that point will compensate for our inability to use IW in the trade (I really don't know).

So I would be tempted to make the deal -I agree with Alan that buying Writing for Myst + IW + money should be equivalent to getting it for IW + money and taking some money back with Mysticism right after.

So the point is whether we want to save Mysticism for a later trade or not -or conversely, whether we want to give the Han a lot of gold or not...

But -to conclude this long ramble- I would do the deal and sell or gift Writing to all we know. The most likely thing that can happen is that they all start researching MapMaking, which we will be able to purchase at second or third tech price. But that's already looking a bit too far ahead.

Talking about Writing, are we playing with the 'old' rules, i.e. Writing allows trading for contacts? ( :blush: I don't remember) In this case, we may have to reconsider -even though having map trades available with MM would probably help us.

Tech pace? probably as fast as we can go until we get to Chivalry and Invention, then stop it in its tracks if we can.

Good point on contact trade rules. It's my guess that Writing will allow them, but I don't know either. I doubt if we're going to keep them to ourselves for long whichever way it's set up. That channel is very narrow. I assume Korea and Baekje know each other, so we're looking at when one of them will meet Han. After that they'll find a way to trade Writing and swap contacts if that's allowed.

Mapmaking is where we need to get to next, and Writing will help us get there. Let's hope suicidal galleying can give us a trading edge. Should we be pre-building for a Lighthouse? That might be enough to get us a place as intercontinental tech broker?

When do you start planning on recruiting some "suicidal galleys"?

Right after we get map making? Trading's the name of this game until w get to the point where our UUs can destroy the world. So we need people to trade with. So far we know three. The F10 screen says there are lots more. If suicide is the way to find them then so be it!

Playing my turns now should have a post soon after.

Probably too late, but here's wishing you luck with the RNG, DJMGator13, in spite of the numerical value of your name :D

Quick summary - not a whole lot happened during my turn set. Founded 4 cities, did the trade in Preturn, but no other techs were learned by any of our neighbors. I have a question concerning KK in my notes to next player.

preturn 1750BC
settler has not moved this turn so I move him S to the RCP5 hill.
TRADE: MYST, IW & 89gold to HAN for WRIT
Gift BAE POT they are still down MYST & WRIT
Do not trade with KOR yet with only 15 gold lets see if we can get some more money for it

IBT - Furs are hooked up

Turn1 - 1725BC
F4 check - interesting HAN spent about 90gold but has no new techs - would the AI run a sci deficit? / KOR still at 15 gold
Almarikh warrior => worker
settler founds Ulaanbaatar set to warrior
Northern warrior N / southern warrior W NW W / Work crew2 SE SE / Work Crew1 to Fpwheat / western warrior N / Scout NE E

IBT

Turn2 - 1700BC
KK settler => settler
Tabriz worker => barracks
F4 - No change in gold for KOR or HAN
Lux to 0%
Work crew 2 roads / work crew1 irr & road / new worker SW / settler NW / So warrior N / No warrior N / Wwarrior N / Scout S SE
KK grow in 2 with wasted food so mm Kazan for extra food

IBT - na

Turn3 - 1675BC
TaTu settler => worker
new settler E S to RCP3 site / settler W / worker SW S W / work crew 2 irr / Nwarrior N / Swarrior SW / Wwarrior E / Scout E NE

IBT - Barb galley sails by near scout (does that mean someone has MapM?)

Turn4 - 1650BC
F4 shows no money change in our neighbors
settler founds Hovd set to warrior
Wwarrior N / Swarrior SW (light up area for horse city) / settler W / work crew1 finishes irr and road 2 of them move NE / Nwarrior N / work crew3 irr
KK grows mm back to growth in 2 settler in 3

IBT - BAE learn MYST still had 0gold / KOR built a city that infringes on our southern RCP5 city

Turn5 1625BC
Work crew2 NW N / work crew1 irr / work crew3 W / settler w to horses / Swarrior N / Nwarrior NW to mt / Wwarrior NW / Scout E

IBT

Turn6 1600BC
Ulaanbaatar warrior => worker
settler founds Darhan set to barrack
Swarrior N / work crew3 irr / work crew1 irr / work crew2 irr / Nwarrior NE /Wwarrior S / Scout SE
lux to 10%

IBT

Turn7 - 1575BC
KK settler => warrior (settler factory is out of sequence)
settler E S / Work crew1 roads / Swarrior N / Nwarrior NE / Wwarrior S / Scout SE

IBT

Turn8 - 1550BC
TaTu worker => temple
Almarikh worker => granary
Swarrior N / settler SE / wake warrior move SE / Wwarrior N / Nwarrior N / Scout SW /

Turn9 1525BC
KK warrior => settler
Hovd warrior => worker
settler founds Dalandzadgad set to worker

Turn 10 1500BC
not much

The 1500BC Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jump1B_1500BC.SAV)

Quick look at our empire using Rings
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jump1B_03.jpg



Notes to next player
1) We are going to have to build on the BG where the warrior is standing, since KOR built Pusan too close to our desert site.
2) KK is still slightly off, need to put back to +5food next turn (let the 6 food complete the box for growth first). Settlers have been coming out at size 5 (sending the city back to size 3). Should we change current settler in the preturn to whatever will complete in 1 turn and start with a fresh box and at size 5. Then the 4-turn factory can operate smoothly.
3) Have been balancing KK food with Kazan trying to give it extra food whenever possible.
4) Worker crews have been slightly separated because irr is taking 4 worker turns and roading is only 3 turns.
5) What happened to the regional intense barbs? Have had the 3 warriors out looking for Bcamps and have not found any.
6) No one we have contact with learned anything and their treasuries have not changed since turn 1.

The KK situation
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jump1B_04.jpg

Good set of turns, Gator.

This no research variant is kind of annoying if your neighbours decide to be neighbourly and do the same thing. :lol:

Is it likely the Han spent his 90 gold upgrading warriors to spearmen? Only upgrade path I think he could do. How often will the AI do this?

As for the regionally intense barbs -- if we discover some nice islands (about 1500 AD at this tech rate!), I wouldn't land settlers without a serious force. :)

My only question is the Granary build in Almarikh .. it already has a barracks. Would it make more sense to start unit pumping? I don't normally bother with granaries except in settler/worker pumps.

Good turns :thumbsup:

I've seen strange disappearing gold effects before. I really don't know what could cause it unless they are being pillaged by barbs, but that seems unlikely.

Do warriors upgrade to spears? Not in my limited exxperience.

The AI will run research at deficit, but only if they get into that state accidentally. Apparently there's evidence that they start a project at a certain % rate they can affortd at the time, and they will not change the science slider until that tech is completed. So if they set the slider when they have a deal that earns them gpt it may be too high for when that deal expires, but they don't then turn the slider down (except maybe if they are going bankrupt?).

Re KK. It looks a bit like it's running OK. Next turn it will have 12 shields plus a 2 shield bonus from a forest as it grows to pop 5. It will then be making 5 fpt and 8 spt for two turns to complete the settler as it reaches pop 6 and drop back to 4. Rinse and repeat. Am I missing something?

My only question is the Granary build in Almarikh .. it already has a barracks. Would it make more sense to start unit pumping? I don't normally bother with granaries except in settler/worker pumps.

Knowing that we were about to have a horse city I though that we had enough warriors, we want to start making a bunch of little horseys, so I went with the granary first think of Alan's mantra ;) .

Re KK. It looks a bit like it's running OK. Next turn it will have 12 shields plus a 2 shield bonus from a forest as it grows to pop 5. It will then be making 5 fpt and 8 spt for two turns to complete the settler as it reaches pop 6 and drop back to 4. Rinse and repeat. Am I missing something?

No, I was rushing a bit to get it posted so my thoughts weren't to focused on the long term. I may have gotten it back on track by building that warrior in between the last two settlers. That was the intention of building it.

Good luck guys and I'll check in on Monday AM.

Is anyone around. Third night in a row that I am having problems installing the mod to the game. Now it's my turn so I guess I'll stop being stubborn and ask for help. I've installed Gotm 21 full install where it asks me to put it (program files/atari)...it goes well... then Gotm 22 add on in the same place (program files/atari) again no probs ...then I go to 23 add on and it wants to put it in (program files/infrogrames) I tell it no I want it with the other two...when I turn it towards the Program files/atari it tells me that that directory already exists do I want to put it there anyway. I tell it yes it starts the install and gets 3/4 the way thru and tells me "an Error was found trying to read the scourse file and that C:\ program file\atari\text\civilopedia.text does not exist. What have I done wrong? :help:

Is anyone around.
I am now ;) Sorry, I live in another time zone.

I turn it towards the Program files/atari it tells me that that directory already exists do I want to put it there anyway. I tell it yes it starts the install and gets 3/4 the way thru and tells me "an Error was found trying to read the scourse file and that C:\ program file\atari\text\civilopedia.text does not exist. What have I done wrong? :help:
It's interesting how computers and software seem to successfully shift the blame for being unusable or inscrutable onto the user :hmm: Don't let them grind you down!

Remember that I don't run Civ3 on a PC, so this may be the blind leading the sighted, but here goes.

I think the program is trying to move the existing civilopedia.txt file into a backup location so that it can put a new one in its place, and for some reason it's not finding that file. So ...

My guess is that \Program Files\atari is not the right place to tell the installers to go. I think it should be in \Program Files\atari\Civilization III\, and you have probably put the new gotm stuff in the wrong place on your hard drive. It's not your fault, and I think installers that don't check that they are being asked to install in a reasonable place should be taken out and stuck up against a wall and put out of their misery.

The first two installers probably did no damage. However, I'm nervous about the message you got from the gotm23 one. It sounds like the right place to install them may be one folder down, in a folder called Civilization III. It found that folder was already there, asked if you wanted to relace it, and you said yes. With luck it found the error and stopped before it did anything else. Worst case it's possible that it proceeded to delete your Civ3 software and replace it with its own stuff instead of adding its own stuff to the existing folder. Either way we should be able to get you going again.

Question 1: Can you still run your vanilla version of Civ3? If not then you'll have to reinstall it first.

Question 2: If/when you can run vanilla then look at the properties of the shortcut you use to launch it and see where it's pointing to on your hard drive. My guess is it will be something like:

C:\Program Files\atari\Civilization III\Civilization3.exe

Whatever you see there, when you run the installers you need to point them at the folder you get by leaving off 'Civilization3.exe' from the above file path.

Hope this helps ... come back and tell me how it goes.

M-B tells me differential naval movement is ON for this game. He's going to check on contact and map trading techs when he gets home, but I think we knw the answer. We now have writing, we don't think the Han have met the others yet, but there are no contact trade opportunities. This is bad news, as contact and map trading could have given us a nice boost. As it is we'll have to get out there and meet the other civs as soon as possible, and just use the tech brokering opportunities that offers.

Looking good :goodjob:

With Kazan's Granary (and worker factory) almost ready, I was thinking of some military buildup in the other cities -Tabriz, Ulaan and Dalandwhatever especially (Dalandowhat would have to build Barracks first, I guess). Chariots as soon as Dharhan is connected, and a few Archers (we won't have any other 2 attack points unit until someone hands HR to us!).

The Granary in Almarikh suggested me that we might even use it as a prebuild for the FP...
It is probably a bit early to look into this, but an early FP would definitely make our northwards expansion more profitable, and let's keep in mind that without Aqueduct it won't be too useful to speed up Almarikh's growth.

----------

@Mistfit, you are in the right roster. Alan can probably solve all your problems blindfolded ;)

---------- The Roster

- Mistfit: UP and struggling with GOTM installs...
- AlanH: always ready
- Nikof
- Karasu
- Grunthex
- DJMGator13: just batted

This is bad news, as contact and map trading could have given us a nice boost.

Think of it as one of a series of obstacles that you may have to face in the course of the game. I gave you a very nice start to lull you into a false sense of security.

I think that no contact trading may actually help us play our middleman role and keep a better control on the tech pace; map trading, on the other hand, *would* have been useful.

By the way, is anyone feeling any 'sense of security' here? :ack:

The interesting thing is I loaded a old save and I now have clams and the rest of my resourses are messed up. So dosent this mean that the first two GTOM's installed properly?

Sorry for the double post but your suggestion worked and installed. I needed to go one file down and double click IPO single. Can I use the "treat" game to test it? There was a couple of things in the Readme that said we had to switch out a couple of .ini files to run this because it might crash the game. Does anyone know if this got fixed? or should I switch them out?

:goodJob: AlanH - The Mac Daddy of PC fixers!!!


Edit: I've looked at the save and as expected everything looks good. One question on a build. Are we building the temple in Ta-Tu to expand the borders so we can use the whale? I will prolly not play until this evening so feel free to give any preturn pointers

I loaded a old save and I now have clams and the rest of my resourses are messed up.
This means you probably have it installed correctly. Make sure you read this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1971533&postcount=145) which should explain what you are seeing, and also execute the instructions in red or it will all end in tears.

your suggestion worked and installed.Wow! I helped a PC user. I thought they were all beyond help :mischief:

Can I use the "treat" game to test it? There was a couple of things in the Readme that said we had to switch out a couple of .ini files to run this because it might crash the game. Does anyone know if this got fixed? or should I switch them out?
Yes, the treat game should work. It's better as a test than the current save, as it will check that you have the extra units installed, which we aren't really testing here yet. I don't know what the readmes say, but I guess you ought to do whatever they recommend. If you prefer to post them here first I'll see if they ring any bells.

Are we building the temple in Ta-Tu to expand the borders so we can use the whale?I'd usually not bother until we have a harbour and are using the sea as a source of food and gold generally. Problem is we are not religious, so a temple is a big investment - 60 shields. The whale will give us 2fpt+1spt+2gpt in despot and take 60 turns just to pay back its shield cost It saves us a gpt by making a citizen happy, but costs us a gpt in maintenance, so it's not a financial asset. Compared with the whale we can get the same output minus one gpt from a plains tile for far less investment - a few worker turns. We have a barracks there, which is wasted if it's not producing units. The only plus I can see for a temple is to generate a few culture points, but I don't think we are going to be cultured Mongols :D

Any guesses as to when we'll be able to build a Forbidden Palace on this map? Obviously more than 8 towns :hmm: Are we going to have to get to 12?

I note the comments about the Korean city encroaching on our city placement in the south. Our remaining southern yellow dot is actually at firaxis distance 3 from their city of Pusan, so I think we can get away with it. Building further away swaps a bonus grass for a desert, and I don't think that's a good deal. Maybe we build it specifically as a culture attacker ... and, despite what I said above, put a temple in it, but this time because we are mean :D At distance 3 they actually won't see it as a major threat, and if they do they can't get at us to do any damage anyway. What are they going to do - throw sand in our eyes?

PS. While I think of it, when we take over the management of the Han cities and build a new Mongol palace in Beijing, we need to look at Chengdu's location. It's only RCP 4 from Beijing, and our planned FP core may benefit from relocating it a bit further away.

Triple post. Now you know one of the ways we won the spammers award in SGOTM 2 :D

Well, as warned I'm disappearing for the weekend now.

Good luck Mistfit, and Alan if you play again within 48.

I'll see you all Sunday evening.

:eek: We'll be all alone with this thing at this rate, Mistfit! DJMGator13 is out until 13th and now Grunthex ;).

Have fun weekends, guys, we'll try not to make too much mess while you're away :mischief:

By the way, is anyone feeling any 'sense of security' here? :ack:

Yeah! We know nothing really bad can happen while you're watching over us :rolleyes:

Re: Pusan - if we build a city in the old suggested spot (the X in 'Gator's map), then we only get 8 of our initial workable squares, I think. I don't know if the Temple border expansion would give us control over the coastal square between the X and Pusan. I also don't know if we care much, since the border expansion would give us ample workable coastline - which isn't that useful until we get a Harbor, anyway.

Building a new city with a bit out of its border always makes me nervous. Does it actually affect the chances of a flip? I don't know.

@AlanH - you and Mistfit may well be alone for a while! I'm heading off for 2 weeks (from the 12th to the 28th). If things go speedily, I might be able to play on Sunday night, otherwise you'll have to skip me for a while. Maybe iBook Refugee could fill in.

Cheers,
nikof

We only lose three tiles to Pusan out of the possible 21 for that city. One's a desert the other two are coast. By the time we are worrying about that sort of thing Pusan or its rubble will be ours anyway.

Flip chances are related to the number of overlapping tiles (3 for the desert tile, 1 for the BG), the number of foreign nationals (zero), relative distance from the two capitals, local and global relative culture (currently equal). I don't know where Seoul is - we should actually find out by buying an embassy with Korea - but my guess is it's at least as far from Pusan as Pusan is from KK, as the AI builds at OCP. Look how far the Han cities are from Beijing. So our city will be considerably closer to KK than to Seoul. I'm suggesting we try to flip Pusan by building a bit of culture. No one has any yet. If we can do that we'll have a ready made beach head on Korean/Baekje territory :D

Let's see how Mistfit gets on. I'll probably play right away when he finishes, in which case you might get another run at it. That's assuming we don't reach a controversial position where we need a team discussion. Depending on Karasu's availablility we then might want to wait until Gator gets back before proceeding.

Well it looks as if my turns will be pretty boring. But this is my official I got it for today. I will play in 5 to 6 hours time. It's my birthday and my kids are dragging me away so they can dig into my cake. I will switch the temple build and see if I can't start some cultural warfare. I'll post my log and save before sunrise. It's 7:00p.m. here

:bday: [party] :beer: Happy Birthday! Have a good one :beer: [party] :bday:

AlanH's first rule of civ3: Don't play when in need of sleep! (first one I always break, that is ;) )

:bounce: Happy Birthday, Mistfit! :banana:

nikof

Pre turn: Ok everything lookin good. Going to use some Barbslinger rules of Playing. #1 get my glass of Gentleman Jack (for sipping ~not swigging) #2 Make sure research is @ 0%. #3 Only change is in Ta-Tu Switch from Temple to Mandingo (or somthing) Bowman and hit enter, done in 8 turns. #4 Mantra ~ Food is Power...Food is Power...

IBT
See a Barb Horse across the straights
Being followed by a Han Warrior just N and E of Ulaanbaatar
Ulaanbaatar worker ---> Rax done in 10

Turn 1 (1475 BC)Warrior NE of Ulaanbaatar S - head him towards Darhan for MP
Move scout and warriors around
Prusan has something called a Ashagaru Footman doing MP duty
Check MM'ing
Karakorum size five growth in 2 settler in 2 - perfect
everyone else seems to be good
Nothing to trade (weird leaderheads, flags?) does A+ next to flag mean that they are happy with us?

IBT
The han warrior heads south towards our cities
The Baekje are building The Oracle

Turn 2 (1450 BC )
Our scout sees a stack of Barbarian 3 Pictish Warriors across the straights
MM'ing
Slide lux to 20% Tabriz grows next turn and has one happy one sad. I've never played at emperor so I son't know if you get the one turn before they riot
Nothing new on the tech front

IBT
Karakorum settler ---> settler due in 5 (actually if I do it right 4)

Turn 3 (1425 BC)
Settler heads south to the 5 spot at the bottom of our island (which I think of as Furland - could BM givin us at least one other different lux to play with? nooo....)
MM'ing
Nothing
No techs yet

IBT
Pictish Horseman shows up to sit with the warriors across the straights
Kazan Granary ---> woker
Hovd worker ---> Rax in 10

Turn 4 (1400 BC)
Workers work
MM'ing
The best I can do at Kazan is Growth in 5 worker in five so I change queue to a Rax for the time being to see if it works better between size 5 and 6.
Nothing new in tech
Notice "Mistfit's weedy moment #1" I Did not road the hill NW of Karakorum while the workers were there...have to hit that when we head back that way with a crew

IBT
Koreans are building The Oracle
Another Han Warrior pops out of the fog NW of Ulaanbaatar

Turn 5 (1375 BC)
Workers work
Play tag with the Han warriors NW of us
Nothing to MM
No New Tech - these guys obviuosly are not Scientific

IBT
Darhan Rax ---> Chariot in 10

Turn 6 (1350 BC)
Settle Mandalgovi in the south - starts on rax due in 20
Mothing to MM
No new tech

IBT
Ta-Tu Mangudai Bowman (MB) ---> MB in 10
The French complete the Pyramids

Turn 8 (1325 BC)
MB head towards Tabriz for MP
No MM
No New Tech

IBT
Katakorum Settler ---> settler
Dalandzadgad (see I typed it during my turns) worker --- rax (veto-able) in 20

Turn 7 (1300 BC)
Settler North to last 5 ring city
MMing - Lux to 30 until MP shows up for Tabriz (I should have gotten one here earlier :( )
No New Tech

IBT
Tabriz Rax ---> Chariot in 7
Ulaanbaatar Rax ---> Chariot in 5
The English complete The Oracle

Turn 9 (1275 BC)
Settle Choybalsan start on worker in 10
worker work
MB to tabriz next turn
Hey Korea learns Horseback Riding - kinda nice they have no horses yet
I can pick it up for 286 this turn - I'll wait to see if he sells it to anyone else to drive the price down
Han learns Codes of Laws he's annoyed with us and wants 620 for it. I did have a warrior in his territory for one, that may be why he's ticked at us. I'll wait because besides the 984 we have there is less than 300 gold between the other 3 so I could not make my money back.

IBT
Kazan rax ---> worker in 3 groth in 3 prolly the best we can do seeings that it is not on a river
Baekje are building the Colossus

Turn 10 (1250BC)
MB arrives in Tabriz

Hand down info:

We should be able to turn down lux slider pre turn

Am I correct in saying that we do not have to do anything to our settler pump to make it work (no MM'ing) or am I doing somthing wrong and causing the settler to come out late?

We have some trading possibilities with Korea and the Han. I forgot to check to see what they'd take before I saved and shut diwn the game.

The workers got back to the hill I neglected in the begining of my turns and should road it while they are there

The irrigation project for the south has started and can continue to the wheat if the next player thinks it wise

I've been keeping the scout in the NE on hold to see if anyone fights the barbs that are amassing on the land across the straights. I'm beginging to believe it may be an island because no one has shown up. AI tends to like to play Whack-a-Barb

The rax in the south that are due in 15+ turns might make good pre-builds for harbors or galleys if the AI would get off their buts and actually learn somthing. The problem with units coming from the south is they are slow to move with all of the rivers to the north
<<<Save>>> (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jump1_B_1250BC.SAV)
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/dottie11.jpg
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/dottie2.jpg

Next better player

Good stuff, Mistfit. Good to see you've got your installation running.

I've downloaded the save and this is a GOT IT. I'll try to play today. Here are some initial comments, I may come back again after I've looked some more at the save.

I like your delay in trading, you've learnt a key lesson at Emperor, that it's OK to be behind in tech at various points in the game. Right now there's nothing on the table that's critical to our immediate success, so we can afford to wait for better prices or other opportunities. In fact we do better to hold off on buying HBR. We can build 20 shield chariots and then upgrade them later rather than building 30 shield horses. We'll have 50% more horses at the point when we upgrade.

does A+ next to flag mean that they are happy with us?Yes. The flags have no facial expressions or era clothes so there are +/- signs to indicate mood (+ is polite or gracious, - is annoyed or furious, nothing means they're cautious) and letters to indicate era. You'll see the letter A's change to M's if they ever drag themselves out of the Ancient era.

Am I correct in saying that we do not have to do anything to our settler pump to make it work (no MM'ing) or am I doing somthing wrong and causing the settler to come out late?If you're getting them out every 4 turns that's the best you can do. If you are not having to MM it then it's worth looking to see if we have enough excess shields that we can build a warrior between settlers, maybe by running 5-7 instead of 4-6. I'll check that, but I don't think it's likely. The other thing I'll check is whether we can hand off some excess shields to another city. This is a big advantage of close builds - the ability to share tiles makes for very efficient use of the terrain. Cutting KK down on shields may mean we have to MM it, or do some tile switching between cities, but if you can build more units faster it's worth the effort.

Re the southern irrigation project, I still think irrigation near Ulaanbataar would have been a better use of worker turns and should have higher priority. The wheat will only deliver one more fpt for three irrigation actions. Ulaanbataar can get 2 more fpt just from two irrigations. However, the upside of doing will be that we can grow pop a bit faster in Mandalgovi and maybe pop rush a temple there to push back the culture border.

Some egg-sucking lessons re. worker stacks. Please feel free to ignore the following if you've heard it all before. I haven't looked at the save in enough detail to even check if it applies, but I do see worker stacks in operation, so it may be a useful review at this point. :D.

It's generally not a good idea to stack workers on road works. They each lose a turn getting to the tile. If you have 3 workers and you move them to a flat tile to road it the road will be done in 2 turns - one to move plus one to road. That's 6 worker turns. If you use one worker he takes 4 turns - 1 to move plus 3 to road. It only took two extra turns but you've saved 2 worker turns in 4 - 50%. Doesn't sound much, but it adds up over the total core development time. The percentage inefficiency is not so bad for roading hills (later mountains) with *small* stacks because the move turn can be a smaller fraction of the total time to build the road. But it still wastes turns.

Stacking is good when you are irrigating or mining terrain that's already roaded and you can move one or two squares and start work in the same turn, but then you have to check the stack size. Irrigation takes 4 worker turns. If you put 3 workers on irrigation it will take 2 turns = 6 worker turns and you waste 2 worker turns. 2 or 4 workers will do an efficient job. But mining takes 6 on open ground so a stack of 3 is efficient and 4 isn't.

Stacks of 2 are versatile, being effective for mining and irrigation, as long as they are moving around on roads. So I tend to use single workers to road, and pairs of workers to mine/irrigate behind them.

Foreign workers confuse it a bit as they count 0.5. So a worker/slave combo is good for mining (1.5 into 6 leaves no remainder) but not so good for irrigation. Pairs of slaves can be treated as normal workers except for the roading movement inefficiency again.

Of course, all efficiency considerations go out the window if you need a road for strategic purposes, and you need it NOW! But we are not in that mode at the moment.

It sounds like an efficient way to play with the workers. I will have to get back to a game to try it. It sounds like a logistical nightmare. I kept the workers in stacks because it is the way they were when I picked up the game. I do not remember if they were all mining at the time though. Great info AlanH. Good luck. Have Fun.

Good points and nice play -from the little I can see from home, on a lousy internet connection :thumbsup:

I also agree on waiting for the trade. Code of Laws should not be going anywhere in the short term.
I would consider selling or gifting Writing around -if someone still lacks it- to encourage them to research MapMaking. The Han are probably doing that now, but they have already surprised us by going for CoL first...

I *may* give in to the temptation to connect again later tonight... if I don't, see you all on Monday!

Until the last turns (9 and 10) we were at even par in tech with everyone.

More building turns

Preflight
F4:
Baekje polite, 2 gold, no tech difference, dyes hoooked up.
Korea polite, 63 gold, has HBR for 286 gold, 3 dyes hooked up, needs horses.
Han annoyed (what did we do?), 56 gold, has CoL for 558 gold, has furs, no horses
Decide to get embassies with Koea and Baekje to get more map info. We'll leave Han for now, maybe buy embassy as an investigation before war.
Screenshots of Seoul and Ch'ongju attached. Both at 0.10.0 - max research. Note that Baekje has a galley in the city! Map making is not available, are they seafaring? :confused:
Confirm that Pusan is equidistant from KK and Seoul.

F1: We are at 30% lux tax :hmm: That's unncessary. Can't afford to keep the people happy at this stage. We can reduce to 10% with a MP in Kazan, so I move a warrior from Choybalsan to Kazan. Various MM to optimise food and shields. We are now at 9.0.1 with 39 gpt.
Hit next turn.

IBT KK settler -> settler

Turn 71 1225 BC
Readjust MM to try to get Kazan's worker + growth next turn.
Slider 9.0.1 for 38 gpt.
F4 - No change in deals, Han has RoP with Korea, and they all know each other. All is peaceful. I guess we should leave it that way to promote tech rate? We awant Monarchy and Mapmaking as soon as possible.

IBT Settler pair heads south from Canton under the nose of our warrior.
Kazan didn't produce its worker :( Governor asleep? Find he's set for Production AND commerce. Not sure what that does :hmm:

Turn 72 1200 BC
Worker stack in the south can't reach any roaded locations and work, so might as well move to the wheat.
Warrior harasses Han settler pair.
Settler moves north heading for the northern flood plain.
Slider to 8.0.2 for Kazan at pop 6. 35 gpt

IBT Kazan pops a worker -> worker

Turn 73 1175 BC Settler continues north. Slider back to 9.0.1
F4: Baekje has hooked up iron. Han's gold is creeping up a few gpt.

IBT Hovd Barracks -> chariot

Turn 74 1150 BC Continue MM everywhere. Slider 8.0.2 again

IBT KK settler -> settler. Kazan worker -> worker

Turn 75 1125 BC Settler heads NE towards fish.
F4: han now has RoP with both other AI. Slider 9.0.1

IBT Tabriz chariot -> chariot

Turn 76 1100 BC Build Erdenet on the northern river nar horses. Start barracks.

IBT Forbidden Palace is now available.
Ta-Tu bowman -> bowman. Dalandzagdad barracks -> temple. Cholybalsan worker -> barracks

Turn 77 1075 BC Build Tsetserleg in NE near fish. Start worker.
Han's culture is starting to grow in F8.
Switch Almerikh to Forbidden Palace (30 turns)
Slider 8.0.2, 44 gpt

IBT Our settler has been shadowing Han settler pair and trying to get in their way. They've now turned back north!
Ulaanbataan chariot -> chariot

Turn 78 1050 BC Han has HBR. The price has now dropped to 137. We don't want it yet as we would like to build some more chariots for upgrade.

IBT KK settler -> settler

Turn 79 1025 BC In F3 we are weak vs. Han, average vs. Korea, strong vs. Baekje
Han and Korea both now have CoL and Philosphy, price for the pair is 427. Decide it's not urgent and we can talk about it. Han has 160 in the bank and Korea is broke. Baekje still at tech parity with us, with 2 gold.
Slider 9.0.1 with a taxman in Kazan (building settler in 5) 49 gpt.

Turn 80 1000 BC Nothing much.

After Action Report
I was trying hard to MM the cities and worker turns. We have a number of workers roading forests right now. Roading a forest takes 6 turns. If you chop it first it costs multiple worker moves to get a stack to it or it takes 10 turns. It's difficult to plan a 10 turn chop to happen right with units taking 10 turns or less each and changing players every 10 thruns, so I figure it's best to road first then a player can move a stack in and time 10 shields to help him with a build. The cost is 3 extra worker turns compared with a single worker chopping and then roading, but I think it's better in this situation.

We could mine the grass where we've irrigated to the wheat if we like, or leave it to become productive in Monarchy.

There's a settler heading north towards a blue dot site on the west coast. Here's a shot of our F3 screen:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jump_B_F3_1000BC.jpg

We still need lots more chariots. I'm not sure it's worth building bows now, as we can always build them later if we want some to upgrade at Invention. We can create chariots for the same shields and we know HBR is available for 160 gold or so to give us 2.1.2 horses. We have over 1300 gold in the bank for upgrades.

The cities around KK all need constant attention to ensure they are not wasting food and shields. KK needs 6 fpt this turn to keep on track. I switched the wheat fp between KK and the others to optimise food and shields when it's at pop 4, and this needs to be done again now to grow KK this turn. Kazan will pop a settler this IBT, so bear that in mind when juggling. We have one settler in trasit towards the west coast blue dot, then we should go after the lambs and sheep north of that, and some river sites between us and Han.

Philosophy and CoL are on the table. It looks like the AI are beelining Republic, which is a little surprising. More surprising is the galley you can see in the Baekje capital screenie below :confused:

Here's Ch'ongju, Baekje in 1250 BC

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Chongju_1250BC.jpg

... and here's Seoul, Korea the same year

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Seoul_1250BC.jpg

Here's our cute little civilization:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jump_B_1000BC.jpg

And here's the SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jump_B_1000_BC.SAV) for the next greater player ;)

No matter how many times I see examples of the second picture it never ceases to amaze me. Surely it's a simple calculation to stick in the code.

You'd think, wouldn't you ;) Actually I was going to put a ribald comment in the timeline, then I thought I'd see who spotted it. Wonder how many of the silver wings will, now they know there's something to look for :lol:

What I want to know, Mr M-B, is where did that galley come from. Have you been teaching our rivals stuff they've no right knowing at this stage in the game?
PS m-b never could count. It's the third picture that contains the AI blunder.

Got it.
I'll play tomorrow, in between packing for a multi-city trip to visit family with the new baby. :p Either that or I'll drop it!


There's a settler heading north towards a blue dot site on the west coast.
Was there a dot-map I missed? Do you mean the RCP 9 ring? A bit confused, sorry. May be the sleep deprivation.

Makes sense to me to keep building chariots for a while and hold off on HBR, since the Horsemen only cost 20 to upgrade. Plan at this stage is to build lots of chariots, wait for someone to get Mapmaking, buy/take Mapmaking, and sweep over our island with Horses, yes?

I wanted to check people's thoughts on pop-rushing one or both of the SE temples. I don't pop-rush much, but if we want to establish cultural mastery in that area to cause an early flip, it might help.

Techs - if 2 civs have CoL and Philosophy and we don't... we won't know if they get Republic until they have a revolution, I believe. At this stage in the game we'd prefer Monarchy for the cheaper unit upkeep IMHO. But if others jump to Republic, would hate to get left behind in Despot for long. But if they go into Anarchy, that's a great time for a war... Hmm, I'm not sure how to approach this! Could just wait to see if Baekje go the same route? We certainly have lots of gold for the upgrades, so we could buy those 2 techs right now if we wanted to.

Not sure what the AI's huge error is. The unroaded Iron in Chong'ju? That city ruin on the Western edge of Seoul? I saw something similar in my last game - does the AI abandon cities early? Stupid, stupid AI creatures.

Will continue with the directions established. Yikes, that's a lot of workers to manage! Some guidance on city placement would be welcome, even if it's "Hey stupid, read the post in thread 7" or whatever.

Cheers,
nikof

The AI blunder is to do with the production it Seoul.

Seoul is building a worker. How many turns before it is competed?

Got it.
I'll play tomorrow, in between packing for a multi-city trip to visit family with the new baby. :p Either that or I'll drop it!Hope you can make it before you go, but don't get into trouble ;)


Was there a dot-map I missed? Do you mean the RCP 9 ring?No, here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1988496&postcount=124). We're bunching cities around Almerikh - as many as possible in a radius 5 disk, and there's one more spot on the west coast.
Plan at this stage is to build lots of chariots, wait for someone to get Mapmaking, buy/take Mapmaking, and sweep over our island with Horses, yes?Yes, Leader fishing all the way :D. Note that we'd like them to be at pop 2 or more in most cities when we attack, then the won't auto raze. Also if they are not in Despot it would be good as they won't reduce pop by pop rushing spears. After the Han we go next door :ninja:.

I wanted to check people's thoughts on pop-rushing one or both of the SE temples.I think that's a good move once they get to 20 shields from completion. That will be in another 12 turns or so by which time they'll be at pop 3, I think and lose one to complete a temple.

Techs - if 2 civs have CoL and Philosophy and we don't... we won't know if they get Republic until they have a revolution, I believe. At this stage in the game we'd prefer Monarchy for the cheaper unit upkeep IMHO. But if others jump to Republic, would hate to get left behind in Despot for long. But if they go into Anarchy, that's a great time for a war...I'm not sure if it would be a good move to jump to republic. We could lose 8 turns and I'm sure we'll prefer Monarchy later. I was part joking when I said they are bee-lining republic. It's hard to imagine they will go up that far before picking up Maths, Poly and Mapmaking.

Buying CoL and Philosophy wouldn't give us much more notice of their anarchy - they'd probably revolt immediately they got republic, so as long as we check F4 every turn we'll know just as soon as they go to anarchy. As soon as they do, and if we are ready, we can buy HBR, instant upgrade and go for it. We should group our chariots in forward cities with barracks - note I started barracks in our new front line towns.
Not sure what the AI's huge error is. The unroaded Iron in Chong'ju? That city ruin on the Western edge of Seoul? I saw something similar in my last game - does the AI abandon cities early? Stupid, stupid AI creatures.
What m-b said ;)
Baekje have the iron hooked now, not a biggie.
That's probably not a ruin. If you can only see one roaded tile it looks like that. It's probably connected to other roads outside the range of vision. Also you can't see workers or other units outside the town. There could be a worker on that tile mining it, or another one roading the tile between it and Chongju.
Will continue with the directions established. Yikes, that's a lot of workers to manage! Some guidance on city placement would be welcome.Good luck. :thumbsup:

City placement is now down to finding good riverside locations. Don't worry about rings now, as corruption will be bad out there, and it'll not apply at all if we can get out palace set up in Beijing. Look north east and north west of Erdenet - lambs and sheep and rivers, and maybe more horses to trade. There's a couple of good spots after the blue one on the west coast, if we can get there before the Han. at that stage our new cities will be as close to Beijing as they are to the FP. Im not sure whether it's better to be closer to Beijing or to KK at that stage. :hmm: I'll think about that.

Hope you can make it before you go, but don't get into trouble ;)

Oh please, who has ever gotten into trouble playing computer games instead of attending to household duties? :)

Thanks for the city info.

The AI blunder is to do with the production it Seoul.

Seoul is building a worker. How many turns before it is competed?
Oh, I get it. AI completes a Worker in 1, but only has pop1 and won't grow for 3 turns. So it's wasting at least 3 turns (including the current turn, when it got to 8 shields) during which it could have produced a military unit.

I think I used to make this mistake with settlers! :lol:

Whoops! Sorry, there are two more blue dots from the previous post to be settled, both on the west coast. They are at radius 5 or less from Almerikh. One of them will be for the settler in transit, then you'll be able to settle the other one, plus one or two more north of Erdenet, using KK settlers and the one coming out of Kazan next turn. I'm just doing an analysis of the rank corrution levels we'd get if we inherit the Han cities with a Palace in Beijing, but don't wait up, as I suspect it's not critical for our remaining city placements. It's much more important to get good food spots on rivers, in forward positions to provide good jump-off points to attack the Han when the time comes.

Han annoyed (what did we do?)
As I mentioned in my turn log I left our warrior in his territory for 1 to many turns.

F1: We are at 30% lux tax :hmm: That's unncessary. Can't afford to keep the people happy at this stage.

Again I mentioned in my turn log and pass down report that this should be turned down I Just got a MB there on my tenth turn for MP duty.

IBT Settler pair heads south from Canton under the nose of our warrior.
Kazan didn't produce its worker :( Governor asleep? Find he's set for Production AND commerce. Not sure what that does :hmm:

It was My understanding that using govenors was a no-no for SG's. The following is a quote from the Draft Constitution
SGOTM ettiquette
Ask to be skipped, or play your turns on time. Please don't just go missing in action.
Do not automate workers.
Do not use city governors.

BTW I did not touch the govenor settings at all during my turns.
Kazan didn't produce its worker :(I also mentioned in my turn report that I had to wait until Kazan got bigger to start popping workers because at size 4-5 it would have taken 5 turns per. Once I let it grow to 5-6 it was ready to start popping them every 3. but it took my ten turns to prep it to do so.

I've no longer got it. :(

I'm really sorry folks, it turns out I was totally unrealistic about what I could get done this weekend. You're not the only ones I let down... :blush:

My humble apologies.

Over to Karasu to play next, I think. I'll be back on July 28, and would love to be put back in the game if forgiveness reigns. Will try to check in a few times to see how things are going.

Good luck!
nikof

Sorry, Mistfit, I wasn;t getting at you, and I aologise for not comparing with your after action report.

As I mentioned in my turn log I left our warrior in his territory for 1 to many turns. I'd be surprised if he was upset for that long just for that. I think we may be into cultural difference issues or maybe power difference.
It was My understanding that using govenors was a no-no for SG's.
....
BTW I did not touch the govenor settings at all during my turns.We don't turn the governor on - that's bad karma, 'cos they tend to hire too many entertainers and you lose productivity and growth. The trick is to set the city to 'emphasise production' so that when a new citizen appears they are put to work straight away and you get extra shields. This is the way to turn marginal settler factories into 4-turn ones by pulling in two extra shields on each of the two growth turns.[/QUOTE]This was the trick I had set up for Kazan's worker. It had 4 shields, it was going to get another 4 and grow. I thought I had it set up so that it could pull an extra 2 shields as it grew, and so complete the worker and fall back to its current pop. Somehow it decided to put the extra citizen on the wrong tile and I only got one extra shield leaving me needing one more and extra tax to keep Kazan happy. No big deal :)

@nikof: Have a good trip. See you in a couple of weeks. :wavey:

Sorry to hear that, Nikof. We'll try not to win this game before you are back... ;)

A few sparse comments after a weekend spent mostly asleep.
- I am totally in favour of pop-rushing the temples as soon as we reach 20 shields from completion. Besides (if I remember correctly) we have an idle barracks in Dalandzadgad...
- I also agree to switch Ta-Tu to Chariot. How about Tsetserleg to Barracks...
- Our neighbours are all religious, aren't they?
- I would attack the Han as soon as we have 10-15 Horsemen. Let's start making war plans... :devil2:
- It is true that we want the AI's tech pace to speed up a little bit, so they research what techs we need; on the other hand, if they had no contact, we could more easily keep control of tech trades. I don't know where the optimum lies for us, and the picture is surely going to change when we meet someone else.

Incidentally, why have they not researched MapMaking yet? With three of them having Writing, I think it is very unlikely that not even one followed that path.
Maybe this has something to do with Baekje having a Galley already... :hmm:


--- Roster ---

- Karasu: UP
- Grunthex: getting ready
- DJMGator13
- Mistfit
- AlanH: done
- Nikof (out till the 28th)

If a civ has galleys it must also have map making. I have not given any civs galleys, nor have I removed the requirement for map-making in order to build galleys.

I have still to check out the bic properly. Work has been in crisis for the last week and I have been working more hours than usual. I aplogise fot the delay.

Checking back in. I read this last night, but nothing came to mind.

Nothing still really does, I've only read it over, but things look good. It's amazing how many cities you can cram in there when you give up pretty empires.

I also like the idea of pop-rushing the two temples, the temple usually offsets the unhappiness, and you get on to something sharp faster.

Hope the rest of you had a good weekend as well.

By the way, I got it now and will probably (but not certainly ;) ) play this evening.

I looked back at Alan's log and I couldn't find any mention of MapMaking... :confused:

No mapmaking! That's the problem! We've previously had reports of barb galleys, and I saw several during my turns as well. Now I've seen one in the Baekje capital city. Either Baekje have mapmaking are are not telling us its for sale or there's some other way for them to build a galley :confused:

Look, no tech difference ....

I also like the idea of pop-rushing the two temples, the temple usually offsets the unhappiness, and you get on to something sharp faster.
That's right. Don't get me wrong .. I don't usually go for temples unless I'm religious because they are expensive, and they don't do anything for us excep build culture. But these two towns specifically are in a culture war with Korea, and it's worth pushing back at them a bit in this specific area. Also, Han have started to grow culturally, so we do need to keep on parity to make flips less likely when we go after them.

Someone said all our neighbors are religious. That's certainly not true of the Han. They are the Chinese by another name, and are Industrious/Militaristic. The latter trait is probably one of the things making them annoyed right now. M-B asked a few days ago if we wanted a list of the traits of the civs we don't recognise. I said yes please, but I've not seen anything. So I don't know about Korea or Baekje. I do recall getting a severe cultural beating from the Baekje in one GOTM that I didn't submit - the two-settler Han one. I lost three cities to cultural flips to Baekje in that one.

I asked that, because I remember being surrounded by Mil/Rel civs in GOTM24 (which I never completed by the way).
Baekje were one of these civs, that's why this thing came to my mind.

The Han being not religious will help us, if we get to fight them during their anarchy period -I'd rather hit them earlier, though... :devil2:

On Temples, I normally build them to get border expansion and some culture in Domination games -not when I am building up military, though. In this case, those two temples we are building seem well picked because of the boundary with our neighbours, and I think we all agree on pop-rushing them.

Concerning the Han, I hope they won't last too long in our island.

I like the use of 1st person possesive.
Concerning the Han, I hope they won't last too long in our island.
Temples sound great to me it would be a really slick way to jump the water if it could happen quickly.

Scout has PM'd me with a possible explanation for the 'galley' in Ch'ongju. Apparently seafaring civs in C3C can go to sea with Alphabet, so it's possible that Cracker modded Baekje to have this capability in preparation for C3C.

In C3C it is a Curragh though not a Galley. It is not able to carry any units. It costs 15 shields and has a A/D/M of 1/1/2. I don't know if this info is helpful or not I just thought I'd throw it out there.

Note: My friends have been known to call me the Minister of Useless Knowledge because of my love for inane trivia. This also drives my wife nuts because I can remember The batting average of 1/2 of the 1984 Tigers team but I forget when her birthbay is. Edit: I was going to correct the spelling but Alan got a chuckle out of it so I'll Just leave it

Yeah but Cracker didn't have curragh unit artwork, so it may show up as a galley in the city screen and a junk when it goes to sea. He was only making approximations to C3C developments, so we just don't know what the stats for this thing are right now.

I forget when her birthbay is.:rotfl: ... or how to spell it :lol:

Pre-turn: 1000 BC
Clockwork precision... I just switch Bowman to Chariot, and off we go.

Kazan: Settler - Worker
Tabriz: Chariot - Chariot

Turn 1 - 975 BC
The two settlers are on their way to the blue spots.

IT
A Junk sails off Pusan. So, yes, Junks must be available with Alphabet (to all but us, that is...)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jump-Junk.jpg

Turn 2 - 950 BC
MM KK tto ggrow in 2 and build ssssettler at the same time

Set workers to mine the irrigated grasslands in the south
No news on the tech front.

IT
Kazan: Worker - Settler

Turn 3 - 925 BC
Baruun-Urt founded. Temple.

Our diplomatic connections do not reveal anything new.

IT
Karakorum: Settler - Settler
Ta-Tu, Hovd: Chariot - Chariot
Tabriz riots. Silly me, I didn't notice its pop grew this turn... :mischief:

A Pictish warrior approaches Baruun-Urt.

Turn 4 - 900 BC
Ereen founded. Barracks
Chariot moves to intercept the Pict.

Hire a taxman in Tabriz.

No scientific progress this turn.

IT
Order restored in Tabriz
Ulaanbaatar: Chariot - Chariot

:ack: Darhan riots! Rather than spreading our troops in all cities for MP duties, I increase the luxury funds to 20%. We are now at +52 gpt.

Turn 5 - 875 BC
Chariots moving towards Erdenet.
Chariot in Baruun-Urt butchers the Pict, but does not promote.

IT
Darhan: Chariot - Chariot
The Arabic city of Medina has completed a great project, The Colossus

Turn 6 - 850 BC
Move units around.

Baekje has Mapmaking, and they will sell it for 657 gold (no map trading, confirmed)
Korea or Han would sell us Horseback Riding for 137 gold; CoL for 267; Philo for 159

I fear that waiting for one turn in this case would let them swap techs, so I think I will do the trade with Philo and CoL, waiting on HR in order to let us build a few more Chariots.
Not getting HR in the trade now will cost us some gold, but I think it is better this way.

So:
buy CoL from Korea for 267 gold
buy Philo from Han for 159 gold (he changed to cautious)
buy MM from Baekje for Philo, CoL and 288 gold
sell MM to Han for 280 gold
sell MM to Korea for 187 gold
(total: we spent 247 gp for three techs, and now have 1433 in the coffers).

Switch Ereen and Tsetserleg from Barracks to Galley (vetoable), Ta-Tu from Chariot to Galley.

IT
Tabriz: Chariot - Chariot (Tsetserleg is building the galley on this side, and it will complete it only two turns later than Tabriz would)
Korea and Baekje start the Great Lighthouse

Turn 7 - 825 BC
Nanking is now pop 1. They must have built a worker or a settler.
Rushed Temple in Dalandzadgad, saving 4 turns on its completion

Baekje too have HR now, so its price will be a little lower for us.

IT
KK: Settler - Settler
Dalandzadgadaagadadagdad: Temple - Chariot

Turn 8 - 800 BC
Batshireet founded towards Nanking. Temple.
Rush Temple in Mandalgovi.

IT
Kazan: Settler - Settler (not sure that a Worker wouldn't be better here)
Mandalgovi: Temple - Galley

Turn 9 - 775 BC
Move a few units.
No new techs around.

IT

Turn 10 - 750 BC
Anyang founded on the coast, east of our lone warrior. I move him back and find a wandering Han Archer (probably gone barb hunting).

The Han have discovered Mathematics.

Notes
- We have 9 Chariots, with 6 more ready in two turns. We can begin the war plans... A first idea can be to capture Nanking -> Canton -> Beijing, then complete wiping them out or signing peace for techs and/or cities. Let us discuss.

- Next turn will also see our first galley. I wouldn't hesitate on suicide runs anywhere the coastline makes you feel lucky enough...

- Workers: I set most of them to chopping forests in our northwester area, to speed up development of the newly-founded cities, and to mining the hills next to Almarikh. At least one group of three should probably go to road in the direction of our future expansion.

- Expansion: I tried to think about it a bit (just a bit... :D ). If we believe that military operations against China are going to begin relatively soon, I would follow the direction 1-2 (with 1 and 2 two possible locations indeed), which will bring us towards our first objectives.
Otherwise, 3 and (somewhat less) 4 can be reasonable candidates; or the western coast towards Anyang.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jump-Expansion.jpg

-- THE SAVE! -- (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jump1B-750BC.SAV)

...and the roster...

- Grunthex: UP
- DJMGator13: eagerly waiting
- Mistfit
- AlanH
- Nikof (out till the 28th)
- Karasu: done

Good looking turns Karasu. Inspired trading.

Dalandzadgadaagadadagdad: Temple - Chariot
:lol:

Try to type it yourself a few times... :p I never get the same spelling twice in a row :ack:

I am pre-judging that we will probably build our Forbidden Palace somewhere to the north of Karakorum and plan to transfer our capital to Han territory. The northern wheat city would be a second mature city in the FP's core.

Can someone go into more detail on how this gets done. I have only built the FP by normal means (rushing with a GL or brick by brick) and I have never moved a capitol city before. Is this done the same way, GL I presume because of the distance problem and corruption. I guess my question is timing if we rush the captiol in Han territory does our original capitol automatically get disbanded or is the city still there but no palace?

As far as I can tell, we can move the Palace in two ways.

1. Rush it (say, in Beijing) with a GL, (EDIT: or hand build it, :eek: ). This would make the Palace disappear from (EDIT:) Karakorum with no other side effect whatsoever in Karakorum. We would need a leader, of course.

2. Disband KK. The Palace will move to another city -DaveMcW has found how to determine that (can't find the thread right now); it will substantially be the city with the largest sum of resident population + population in surrounding cities (mongol people counting more than barbarians).
This way we will get a settler out of KK, which we will then be able to found again where it used to be; we will loose the Granary and some population.

We save a GL this way, but we need to make sure that the Palace is going where we want it by joining settlers to foreign cities etc.

If we rush, or even if we hand built, a palace in Beijing it just moves and KK stays put with no palace. KK then becomes one of Almerikh's low corruption disc of about 11 rank one cities.

If Bejing is wher our Palace (not or FP) is going the following are my Ideas on the upcoming war.

Canton - Shanghai - Tsingtao are all set up in the 5 ring around Bejing. This is perfect. (wide spacing around Palace / tight spacing around F.P.)

Chengdu is at 4
Nanking is at 6

Both of these need to be razed and replaced. I think Nanking can be moved one tile to the west and Chengdu can be moved one tile either north or south.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/han.jpg

Please check my figures on the distances. Not using Rings has made me use my math skills :confused:

Edit: We need to remember to attack Nanking from the SE to avoid attacking across the river

Looks right to me.

In this regard, if we need to raze and replace several cities beside filling gaps and inflating population in chosen chinese cities, Karakorum and Kazan are well used as settler factories for quite some time yet.

Ok, I'm trapped at work, so won't be gotting-it until tonight some time.

I want lots of thoughts before I play -- this is where I like to mess up a perfectly good game, the early war I fail to plan sufficiently for. I'll try to organize my thoughts a bit.

1) WAR.

We should have about 15 chariots online in 2 turns. Is this enough to start smacking on the Han? Considering once we upgrade them, we'll have to build reinforcements at horseman cost, I'm not sure how fast they'll come in. For Goals, I think the Nanking-Canton-Beijing route is good, but we must get Tsingtao before we end the war, if we do. Unless we wipe him out, we can't leave the Han iron for their next war. I think I recall they are already up Math on us, so a is a war for 4 cities+ spoils what we want?

2) Naval supremacy

Do we want to just send galleys off willy-nilly into the fog, or does it make more sense to follow the Korean peninsula around in both directions to see if other islands show up? I know we'll want to do some of both, but I get the first few to choose from. My gut instinct is to preserve the galleys.

3) Palace/FP

We've already been building the FP in Almerikh for a bunch-o-turns, that's pretty firm on a location, correct? How do we want to get the Palace to Beijing? I've never used the free-palace-jump -- I didn't know about it for a long time, and once I did it felt cheap to me. My preference would be to build it honestly, no matter what that takes (a leader, really).

4) Future war.

Assuming we don't destroy the Han, are they our next target? Or will they be so weak as to be irrelevant, allowing us to go after Korea/Baekje? What are we planning to use for troops? If we get Tsingtao's iron, we might consider building a pile of warriors for a swordsman upgrade.

5) Government.

Assuming these guys ever get around to researching any, which do we want? I used to be a "Republic-always" guy. But we have ONE luxury to work with, and plans on pointy-sticking a lot of people. Does it have ANY value for us at all?

6) Future Rings.

Ring 1 around Beijing = 5. Does ring 2 at 7 or 8 change much, in terms of the disc-placement around Almerikh? I think Karasu's (1, 3, 4) suggested placements would all fit within a 7, but can't see much of the rest of the empire at the moment.

Ok, so I talked a lot here. I tried to put in my thoughts on each idea.

1) WAR.

We should have about 15 chariots online in 2 turns. Is this enough to start smacking on the Han? Considering once we upgrade them, we'll have to build reinforcements at horseman cost, I'm not sure how fast they'll come in. For Goals, I think the Nanking-Canton-Beijing route is good, but we must get Tsingtao before we end the war, if we do. Unless we wipe him out, we can't leave the Han iron for their next war. I think I recall they are already up Math on us, so a is a war for 4 cities+ spoils what we want?

I think we need to see where your are at after ten turns and we can decide as a team.

2) Naval supremacy

Do we want to just send galleys off willy-nilly into the fog, or does it make more sense to follow the Korean peninsula around in both directions to see if other islands show up? I know we'll want to do some of both, but I get the first few to choose from. My gut instinct is to preserve the galleys.

I like willy-nilly... :D

3) Palace/FP

We've already been building the FP in Almerikh for a bunch-o-turns, that's pretty firm on a location, correct? How do we want to get the Palace to Beijing? I've never used the free-palace-jump -- I didn't know about it for a long time, and once I did it felt cheap to me. My preference would be to build it honestly, no matter what that takes (a leader, really).
I agree but we are low men on the totem.

4) Future war.

Assuming we don't destroy the Han, are they our next target? Or will they be so weak as to be irrelevant, allowing us to go after Korea/Baekje? What are we planning to use for troops? If we get Tsingtao's iron, we might consider building a pile of warriors for a swordsman upgrade.
To early to tell IMO. We'll know more when your turn set is done. I wouldn't plan on starting any other wars in your turns, if you can help it.

5) Government.

Assuming these guys ever get around to researching any, which do we want? I used to be a "Republic-always" guy. But we have ONE luxury to work with, and plans on pointy-sticking a lot of people. Does it have ANY value for us at all?
Monarchy I believe is the choice of war mongerers.

6) Future Rings.

I'd have to pull up the save to check on this. but I think you are correct

I want lots of thoughts before I playAll good questions. Here are my 2¢

We should have about 15 chariots online in 2 turns. Is this enough to start smacking on the Han? Considering once we upgrade them, we'll have to build reinforcements at horseman cost, I'm not sure how fast they'll come in. For Goals, I think the Nanking-Canton-Beijing route is good, but we must get Tsingtao before we end the war, if we do. Unless we wipe him out, we can't leave the Han iron for their next war. I think I recall they are already up Math on us, so a is a war for 4 cities+ spoils what we want?If there's a road from Nanking to Beijing I'd be tempted to hit Beijing directly. We'll be at our strongest at the start, with all our troops concentrated and few healing. It really screws them up if you can split the territory up, and you then have their radial road network at your disposal to clean up the other cities. If we leave Beijing alone while we go after the others they are also likely to pop rush it down to pop 1, making more spears fo rus to kill, and leaving us with an uhappiness legacy.

I agree we should consider depriving them of iron as top priority, both asap during the war and for afterwards. We should aim to be at tech parity as a result of the peace negotiations, perhaps grab a free pop 1 town or two so that we dont have to raze them, and preferably leave them in a small hovel on the tundra edge of the continent.

Do we want to just send galleys off willy-nilly into the fog, or does it make more sense to follow the Korean peninsula around in both directions to see if other islands show up? I know we'll want to do some of both, but I get the first few to choose from. My gut instinct is to preserve the galleys. We should certainly look for local contacts first. We don't know that suicide is even necessary yet.

We've already been building the FP in Almerikh for a bunch-o-turns, that's pretty firm on a location, correct?I think so. If we get a 5 ring around a Beijing palace our zero corruption cluster around Almerikh will be about 11 cities I think. And the tight spacing means they'll limit at a reasonable population, reducing happiness problems.

How do we want to get the Palace to Beijing? I've never used the free-palace-jump -- I didn't know about it for a long time, and once I did it felt cheap to me. My preference would be to build it honestly, no matter what that takes (a leader, really). I've never tried a free palace jump, and all my instincts rebel against it. If we work at elite generation and use them carefully we should be able to get a leader to build it for us?

Assuming we don't destroy the Han, are they our next target? Or will they be so weak as to be irrelevant, allowing us to go after Korea/Baekje? What are we planning to use for troops? If we get Tsingtao's iron, we might consider building a pile of warriors for a swordsman upgrade.I'd still favour horses myself, but it depends on when pikes arrive. Swords will upgrade to a fairly defensive unit at feudalism I think. We won't need a lot of them.

Assuming these guys ever get around to researching any, which do we want? I used to be a "Republic-always" guy. But we have ONE luxury to work with, and plans on pointy-sticking a lot of people. Does it have ANY value for us at all? I'd say we should focus on revolting only once, to Monarchy. Republic's only value for us is if we get into a tech middle man role, when it can be quite valuable on the negotiating table. But I don't think we should bother actually using it.

Ring 1 around Beijing = 5. Does ring 2 at 7 or 8 change much, in terms of the disc-placement around Almerikh?Not really. We just need to create two tidy rings, using as many existing developed sites as possible to reduce the number of settelrs we need.

Yuk, good points indeed. :)
I'll put my 2 cents in the hat too, hopefully they'll become good money with all our contributions...


1) WAR.


Estimating how many units are enough for a war is hard. 15 horsemen won't probably be enough to finish the Han.
The reason to start sooner rather than later is of course that the earlier we hit, the weaker they (supposedly) are.
In this regard, capturing their core cities and hopefully one/two more in peace negotiations should achieve the goal. Leaving a few Han cities behind shouldn't be a problem at that point.

One thing I failed to note in my report: our army was weak compared to theirs until my last turn, when it turned average. This seems to suggest that they haven't built any Swordsman yet.
The risk that they start building more than a few Swordsmen is certainly pushing towards a quick attack -but we should not hurry things.

In fact, it is debatable whether waiting for 10-15 more turns and attacking with 20-25 horsemen wouldn't give us better results. I do not know this -we may want to discuss the whole point a bit more in depth. (Having said this, I must confess that I am in favour of the carnage, and someone who played SGs with me in the past may not be surprised to see that :D ).

If we look into the 'early-war' scenario, my feeling is that two stacks of 7 Horses (roughly) should take Nanking and Canton without too many problems ( :crossfingers: ). They can then be joined on their way to Beijing and Tsingtao (btw, do they export Tsingtao beer worldwide, or is it only to be found in Chinese restaurants in Italy?).
At that point, we should reassess the situation.

Incidentally, disconnecting Tsingtao as soon as the war begins is probably worth a horseman (or a chariot).
They have another Iron source, incidentally, close to their southwesternmost city (can't recall the name). It is not connected yet, and it shouldn't be a problem to us if we hit them hard enough in the first war.

We can leave the two Archers and three-four horses in our border cities in case they counter -I would expect them to do that from Anyang, if at all.


2) Naval supremacy


I was thinking of a coupe of galleys for our western coast, to follow it both nortwhards and southwards. Personally, I would take the plunge as soon as I saw a cape or a peninsula deep enough into the oceans.
Another galley is (relatively) close to completion on our eastern coast. That one can explore our neighbours' lands a bit more, before attempting any adventure.

The movement points of the Korean Junk point to differential movement being on. This means that we will have increased movement for our ships, but coast tiles will cost 3 of them, sea 2 and ocean 1.
If this is confirmed, it is certainly a reason to try ocean crossings.


3) Palace/FP


Yes.
Hopefully we'll get a leader. Otherwise, and subject to collective agreement, we may want to try the big jump; I am not too keen on it either, but if the leader doesn't come I see little choice.


4) Future war.


It is probably a bit early to decide. If we do decide to start the war in your turns, we will need to see what's their state when it is over.
We will also want to consider whether or not it is the case to break the peace treaty -which also depends on how many contacts we have by that time and how easily Korea and Baekje could spread the word about our misdeeds... :mischief:

Actually, it would be good to be able to start a couple of raids on the other two, but it is really hard to see it now.

Regarding Swordsmen, we already have 11 warriors IIRC, which look nearly as many as we need for a short-range war, wherever it is.


5) Government.


As you say. I'd go Monarchy in this game.


6) Future Rings.


The second ring around Beijing won't change what happens around Almarikh.
As Mistfit pointed out, we need to move a couple of cities so that the first ring is at distance 5; let's pay some attention to the second ring (distance 7 looks ok), then I wouldn't care too much.

I was looking at he second ring around Bejing and I believe that we can fit an eight ring around it. If we did that we would have room for 13-15 good quality cities and another 2-4 in the northern tundra area (our probable oil source). If we do indeed decide on using the 8 ring Karasu's #1 and #4 city would work and the #2 city would have to be built one tile to the SW and they would all fall in the ring. The #3 city is a "tweener" as it will fall betewwn the 8 ring of Bejing and the outer ring of our FP.

do they export Tsingtao beer worldwide, or is it only to be found in Chinese restaurants in Italy?

I knew I reconized that name from somewhere. I should have know it was from beer. Yes, That is one I have seen in speciality beer shops before.

Double Post Alert.

I see in another thread that Gator is back. So we can wait for his thoughts on this stuff as well. He is the "King of the Rings".


Edit: This may be secondary but if we have an extra settler we could place a city on the little southern island to appy more pressure on Prusan

1) WAR.

Two prewar items:
a) either rush the barrcks in Erdenet or mm from iFP to mHill and let it complete in 3 (vrs 6 turns). Then upgrade our 14 chariots to horsemen at a cost of 280 gold (20 each). We can but HBR from the BAE for only 126 gold (plus I never like giving money to someone I'm about to go to war with).

b) War Path - do the Hans even have either of their irons hooked up? They do not have their horses hooked up yet because it shows on our side of the the F4 trading screen. I agree with Karasu that a split assualt on Nanking & Canton then reassemble main force to take out Beijing. Sue for peace for techs and/or cities.

2) Naval supremacy

I like to explore the coastline with my first ship unitl I find a nice point to attempt a crossing. If I have anothe rship close by I'll either try a suicide run with the first galley or wait for the second galley and let the first one keep mapping out new coastline.

3) Palace/FP

We are only 17 turns from completing FP brick by brick. I would definitely use the first GL to rush the palace in Beijing. By the time we capture 3-4 Han cities they will be severely crippled and no need to use our 1st GL on creating an army. (Depending on the number of elite we have in combat after the first GL appears we may want to look at rushing a Wonder depending on what is avaiable.)

4) Future war.

Kill them all :hammer:


5) Government.

Monarchy is probably our best bet. The unit support will help keep our gpt up and it is gooing to be expensive to buy either government tech. We will probably need some pointy stick research to acquire either of these.

6) Future Rings.

I need to look at this later, but Alan seems to have a good plan already.

Got it. Not sure how much I'll get played tonight, probably expect a post tomorrow evening.

Good luck Grunthex. :thumbsup:

You know, sometimes living in Europe is really hard: imagine, now I'll have to wait at least 14-15 hours before I know what happened during Grunthex's turns. ;)

Of course, this doesn't apply to Alan, who is known to loom over the forum about any time... :p

What do you think of the idea of placing a city on the little land mass to our south to put more cultural pressure on Prusan?

I agree I have seen AlanH here at all hours of the day and night. (I guess that means I'm here too...hmmm)

My computer may be lurking even as I sleep ;)

I think now we can sail we should grab any land we can. Specially if it fits on one of our rings. Until we move the palace we still need the current rings to remain tidy.

This shouldn't hurt our southern rings at all

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/island.jpg

A temple would prolly need to be rushed but if we gain a city from flip, it's be worth it IMO.

What about going 1 square SE of that big red dot. It would give even more 'surround' on Pusan, especially once the temple was whipped. Not sure if the distance from KK matters at this point.

Devil's advocate: What if that is NOT an island, it's a peninsula connected to the main Korean landmass -- would having two cities leaning on Pusan piss Korea off enough to declare war? Heck, if it is an island, it's still something to consider.

Should we raze Nanking? It's at RCP6 from a relocated Palace in Beijing, while the other cities are at RCP5. Same with Chengdu RCP4. If we do not raze them we will have 1 RCP4, 3 RCP5 and 1 RCP6 cities around Beijing.

@Grunthex - I was thinking 1 tile S of the red dot.

What about going 1 square SE of that big red dot. It would give even more 'surround' on Pusan, especially once the temple was whipped. Not sure if the distance from KK matters at this point.

Devil's advocate: What if that is NOT an island, it's a peninsula connected to the main Korean landmass -- would having two cities leaning on Pusan piss Korea off enough to declare war? Heck, if it is an island, it's still something to consider.

I believe the AI consider Firaxis distance less than 3 to be aggressive settling - I know that's how I'd feel :D. If we want to provoke Korea then red dot or 1 SE would be great ways to do so. Remember they are mobile by sea, so unless we are ready to (a) defend any settlement we put over there and (b) deal with incoming, albeit pathetic, invasions from Korea on our mainland, I suggest we avoid upsetting them right now. I recommend we process one enemy at a time until we have a major military lead on the rest of the world. Of course, if you feel we should be going after Korea rather than Han first, feel free to propose that option.

Should we raze Nanking? It's at RCP6 from a relocated Palace in Beijing, while the other cities are at RCP5. Same with Chengdu RCP4. If we do not raze them we will have 1 RCP4, 3 RCP5 and 1 RCP6 cities around Beijing.
That was my thinking. I'd drawn a map showing their two non-RCP 5 cities razed and moved one tile onto the 5 circle, but Mistfit had already produced the same proposal before I posted. An RCP 5 circle on a Beijing palace puts 11 cities round Almerikh all at rank 1.

That was my thinking...<snip>...An RCP 5 circle on a Beijing palace puts 11 cities round Almerikh all at rank 1.

Cool, just wanted to make sure we were on the same page. :)

If there turns out to be land 1S of Big Red, I'll consider that the goal -- all the screenies I see are inconclusive though, that could be water.

Bit of a beginnerish question here. I've been seeing threads where people seem to be abandoning cities that are NOT small -- how do you do this? I only know of razing the enemy cities. Can I just have a military unit burn a whole city like Alpha Centauri does? :)

When you capture a city, if it's pop 1 and has no cultural value (capitals don't count because of the palace) then you get no choice. It's destroyed. Otherwise you are given the choice of "Install a new governor" or "Raze it, we don't want it". Choose the first option if the city is where we want it to be, the second if we want to move it.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear -- I'm familiar with that part.

If you have a built up city (that you own), is there a way to just abandon it without starve/settlering it down to 0?

I know that if you right-click on the city in Conquests, you can choose to abandonit. Not so sure about in Vanilla though....

Yes, you can just right click and abandon. This is correct.

Sorry for misunderstanding your question. In fact you *can't* reduce it to zero pop. If you try to build a worker or setter at pop 1 you won't build it until the town has grown enough to leave one after it's built.

And that's the humourous point about the screenie I posted for Ch'onju. The AI had a ten shields for a worker, but with pop 1 they were going to have to wait several turns to grow to pop 2 before building it. The AI civs often do that with settlers or workers.

Well, here it is!

Pre-Turn

Wow. Never having played one of these, it's shocking how much changes between plays. :)

I see we have 2 settlers currently, my plans for them are Karasu's 1, and NE of his 3. I moved it because it would get the river and still fits in the 8-ring from Almarikh. The 1 doesn't, but I see no better place (I picture a 5 site 3SW of this)

I wake the scout off his hill to see if any development has happened near Tsingtao (specifically Iron-connections).

Manual F4 check reveals nothing, and only place I MM a bit is in Baruun-Urt for more food (=power!) Press enter.

IBT:
Han Archer kills Barbarian in the southwest.

Ta-Tu: Galley->Chariot
Ulaanbaatar: Chariot->Chariot
Hovd: Chariot->Chariot
Darhan: Chariot->Chariot

Most of those will finish in 5 -- my goal is to have enough to make war by then.

Turn 1 (730 BC)

Workers mine hills, or chop forests. Sending 3 workers to road to Nanking.
First galley heads SE along coast, planning to get a settler to near Pusan... will have to be careful, this naval movement is new to me.
Scout enters Han forest -- worker is there right now, hooking up iron.

MM Erdenet to have barracks and growth in 3 (save 2 turns on barracks, lose 1 on growth) -- this means the barracks will be online when all my chariots are ready.

Hit enter

IBT:
Han ask us to leave. I agree. For now...

KK: Settler->Setller
Tabriz: Chariot->Galley
Dalandzadgad: Chariot->Chariot (Culture expansion!)
Choybalsan: Barracks->Chariot

Turn 2 (710 BC)

This differential movement means I can have 4-move galleys, if done right!
Galley reveals we can't put the city 1s of the Red Dot by Pusan.
On his way out of Han territory, scout confirms Tsingtao is road-linked to the capital.

Nothing new on tech front.

IBT: Wu-Ti of Han wants 100 gold. It's just a bit too early -- I cave in.
Mandalgovi culture-expands, showing us lambs on the far bit of the south island. I'm going to settle on the south end. It looks like it IS a peninsula connected to Korea.

Turn 3 (690 BC)

Settle Choyr NW of Batshireet (hopelessly corrupt): Temple. Choyr is coincidentally 8 from Beijing, and should (IMO) start our second ring (does this mean disc-placement around Almarikh within 8 is all good, or does that not work that way?)
Warrior sees a Han settler pair heading SW of Choyr. Stands in the way a little.
Workers mined an Almarikh hill -- MM a bit to cut 2 turns off the FP.
Settle Ulaangom NE of Karasu's 3-spot.: Worker.
Galley sees sea across ocean south of our island -- once the settler is dropped off, I will try to cross...

IBT: Han settlers turn around. Interesting. (Post-turn note, I never did see where they went!)
Erdenet: Barracks->Chariot

Turn 4 (670 BC)

Almost forget to do a happiness check, Almarikh grew to 6 (FP in 9) so I detour a chariot back from Erdenet to keep them happy. Nothing else of note.

IBT:
Ta-Tu: Chariot->Chariot (I thought about a galley here, but 4 or 5 are in production)

Turn 5 (650 BC)

Chariot looks at Nanking. Defended by a regular spear, some good infrastructure.
Realize Ulaangom's worker build made no sense -- change to Barracks, will supplement with a chop from incoming workers.
Tabriz reached size 7, and I make a clown. I only lose 1 gpt and 1fpt, and it saves me 11 gpt on the lux slider. Tabriz is now food-neutral.
Settler gets off with a warrior on Korean isle. Galley heads due south, and SEES coast, but doesn't make it. Cross fingers.
Still nothing on diplomacy front.

IBT:
KK: Settler->Settler
Kazan: Settler->Settler
Ulaanbaatar: Chariot->Chariot
Hovd: Chariot->Chariot

Turn 6 (630 BC)
I have one chariot coming in next turn so I hold ONE more turn on acquiring HBR.
Settle Tosontsengel on Korean island. Who NAMES these?: Warrior (vetoable -- I think it might be required if Korea gets uppity)
Did I mention the galley didn't sink? :dance: We meet the Chosogabe. They are up Math and HBR, but down Code of Laws! They have 82 gold, 5 wines and 11 cities (including the capital)
I know I'm taking a risk that they'll get CoL between turns, but I want that last chariot. HBR is cheap anyway.
Hit enter.

IBT:
Darhan: Chariot->Galley
Tsetserleg: Galley->Worker

Turn 7 (610 BC)

I call up Morichika San of the Chosogabe. He gives up HBR, Math AND 88 gold for Code of Laws. For those following at home, the Chosogabe are already annoyed with us. They appear to be a Japanese offshoot, MIL/REG with Samurai.

Tsetserleg Galley finds out how differential naval movement sucks in these straits. 2 moves/turn.
Spend 260 gold upgrading 13 chariots to Gospodar. We still have 1764 at +59gpt. I had chariots out of place, which may cost me a turn or so on the war-front. I suspect I'll be polite and set it up for the next player to declare.

Note that I have NOT sold Math to the Koreans or Baekje. I plan to use it to get Alliances against the Han so we don't get dogpiled.

IBT: Chosogabe asks my galley to move along.
Missed a riot in Almarikh (I moved a chariot out to help control other parts, and screwed this up.)

Turn 8 (590 BC)

Horses (Gospodar) start moving west. Trying to get the rest upgraded -- Almarikh back under control.
A barb galley threatens the galley -- I ignore it moving along. If it attacks, we live or we die. :shrug:
I have lost my chance to sell Mathematics. I'm sorry. :( Given the Han now have 400 gold, I can guess who sold it.

IBT:
Barb galley attacks and loses, redlining but promoting our galley.
Mandalgovi: Galley->Barracks (vetoable -- we could build cats, or warriors for MP duty as easily)
Baruun-Urt rebels because AGAIN I moved units after checking happiness.
Baekje complete The Great Lighthouse. How kind!

Turn 9 (570 BC)

Mandalgovian galley passes through Tosontsengel to head around the Korean coastline.
Settle Atlay on the NE coast.: Warrior

IBT: Baekje complain about a Galley. Lighten up. Another barb galley blocks our passage north. Dang.
KK: Settler->Settler
Tabriz: Galley->Warrior
Dalandzadgaddadavida: Gospodar->Gospodar
Ereen: Galley->Worker

Turn 10 (550 BC)

I turn lux up to 30% to free horsemen for the front. Might be possible to lower that again with a few MP. Costs us 13 gpt, but we still make 54.
Our galley attacks the barb and wins, but is redlined again.
Our south galley crosses another shallow point and sees purple borders! No idea who.

PASS-DOWN NOTES

I have 8 horsemen outside Canton. There are another 8 in Batshireet that can reach Nanking. You can start war when you feel lucky.

I have a settler 3 SW of Choyr, and planned to settle right there. There's a warrior nearby to help defend it. Another settler just left KK. I think it should be used to re-found after we raze Nanking.

There are two galleys in the north - I thought one could head East past Baekje's capital, and the other North around a new island (uncolonized apparently) -- Watch out, there are barb galleys all over up here. Might be better to go back and heal.

Another galley is heading east along the south shore of Korea, and one West past South Han. The final galley just discovered Purple, but no contact yet.

There's an idle worker near Choybalsan who was heading to help the Han slave all alone near Atlay (result of a mis-move by me)

While we're ready to ATTACK Han, we have no defense.. Our northeastern cities are completely undefended. There is a bowman near Tabriz that was heading as preventative defense.

All my builds are vetoable, no ego here!

If I did anything odd, please tell me! I know I have a lot to learn.

(ASIDE to Alan: Sure you can reduce it to 0 pop. Bring it to 2, build a settler and if the city has 0 or negative food growth, you will be given the option to abandon, and get the settler. Same with worker at size 1)

Edit: Fixed formatting.

I actually managed one screenshot, to show off our amazing galley's explorations!

Thought from after-- we need a harbor somewhere, to trade for Baekje luxuries. (Dyes)

Grunthex sounds like you set me up nicely to battle the Hans ;) .

Don't forget to upload the save file.

Nicely played :goodjob: good setup, nice trading.



Wow. Never having played one of these, it's shocking how much changes between plays. :)


It's -always- a strange feeling, isn't it? I like it, though :)



On his way out of Han territory, scout confirms Tsingtao is road-linked to the capital.


This means that we will most likely face a few Swordsmen. Will it be possible to send a wandering Horse to disconnect, possibly after taking Canton, it or is it too far away?



IBT: Wu-Ti of Han wants 100 gold. It's just a bit too early -- I cave in.


Wisely done :thumbsup:



Galley heads due south, and SEES coast, but doesn't make it. Cross fingers.


This is one of the most breathtaking part in turnlogs. I valiantly resisted the tempation to scroll down and peek the galley's destiny... :D



Settle Tosontsengel on Korean island. Who NAMES these?


:lol: I told you!



I call up Morichika San of the Chosogabe. He gives up HBR, Math AND 88 gold for Code of Laws.


Well done again! :goodjob:



Baekje complete The Great Lighthouse. How kind!


Now this may be a problem. Can they make contact with Chosogabe with the Lighthouse extra movement? It would be really nice to keep a monopoly on contacts for a while (that is, until Korea and Baekje exist ;) ).

Baekje are becoming serious candidates as our next target, in my opinion...



Dalandzadgaddadavida: Gospodar->Gospodar


See? :lol:



While we're ready to ATTACK Han, we have no defense.. Our northeastern cities are completely undefended. There is a bowman near Tabriz that was heading as preventative defense.


Yes, we may want to build another bowman or two, but I wouldn't build defensive units.
A few horseman to patrol our northern-northwestern border should be enough to counter the Han's retaliation.

Ops. The roster (sorry for the double post).

- DJMGator13: UP (as soon as Grunthex remembers to upload the save... :crazyeye: )
- Mistfit: getting ready
- AlanH
- Nikof (out till the 28th)
- Karasu
- Grunthex: done

While we're ready to ATTACK Han, we have no defense.. Our northeastern cities are completely undefended.
The Han will be too busy at home once our horses get in there. Take out their nearest cities and they'll never come near us.

Good turns Grunthex. It looks like I will have mop up duties for the Han. Question for the GoldWingers: Looking at Grunthex's turn log would you have started the war earlier, If so when. I have the problem of overestimating the amount of units needed to go to war.

Just because I like ancient warfare....

For me, the question is not how many units I need for war. It is the rate of production of offensive units versus the rate at which cities will be attacked and the rate of deterioration of your attack force.

At this point, most towns will be defended by a single reg spear, and the AI will pop rush another before you attack. It will take 2 turns to get from one city to the next and you have to leave one unit behind as a garrison. It will require 5 horses to capture a city. So, you need to be able to get one new unit to the frontline every turn in order to be unit neutral (assuming losses of 1 per town). This can be done partly by production, and partly by moving existing garrisons from your core to replace garrisons in newly acquired cities.

Where you start the campaign with more units than that required to capture the first city, then production can be lower if you are willing to accept gradual degradation of your army.

Also the use of fast units increases survivability because of the retreat ability. This also reduces the rate of production required to sustain a war. Swords are strong but the rate of attrition is higher. This is why elite players almost exclusively play with fast units.

So -- if during a war you find that the number of units you have is increasing, then you began the war later than you needed to. If you find the number of units decreasing, then you need to work out how many units you will have when attacking the final city, and make sure it will be enough.

You may have to recalculate for capital cities and cities with wonders in then as these may be more heavily defended and will need more units to deal with. The point at which you tackle these towns needs to be planned to be at a point where you will have enough units.

Ops. The roster (sorry for the double post).

- DJMGator13: UP (as soon as Grunthex remembers to upload the save... :crazyeye: )
- Grunthex: done

Oh, CRAP. I knew I'd forget something, and here I am at work again. I'll see if I can get home at lunch to give Gator something to play with (otherwise it'll be mid-evening his time before I get there)

The Save! Plus some filler text.

Thanks MB - I just would like to get a clarification on one thing though: If you had 5 units that you felt would be enough to take the 1st city and enough production out of your core to replace 1 or preferably 2 units per turn to replenish your casualties. You would feel confident going to war. Am I getting this straight?

Should we be using one of our unit pumps to make less expensive units (warriors) for garrison purposes? or do we just stick the horses in the cities after we capture them?

Hi from Frederic, Wisconsin. (It's small. Bonus points for finding it on a map. :) )

Mad-bax is a sneaky man:

If a civ has galleys it must also have map making. I have not given any civs galleys, nor have I removed the requirement for map-making in order to build galleys.

I should have noted this before I left :crazyeye: - have a look at the Civopedia entries for Baejke and Korea. Ancient Sea Power, I think. Read that trait! No - the civs don't get galleys. But they get junks with writing, and iirc their units move as if they already have the lighthouse! This may not be a big problem now that we're water-mobile, but we should be prepared for the possibility that the other civs are snapping up the long-range contacts. 'Course, they'd have to be smart to do that...

Looks like the game's going great! :livesvicariouslythroughothers:
Y'all have a good time kicking some Han, and see you soon.

nikof

p.s. I did my first palace-jump recently. Wasn't too onerous, and seems like a good skill to have in the toolkit...

The civilopeadia is your friend. :D Zagnut spent lots and lots of time updating it. You 'd be surprised what you might find. ;)

Thanks MB - I just would like to get a clarification on one thing though: If you had 5 units that you felt would be enough to take the 1st city and enough production out of your core to replace 1 or preferably 2 units per turn to replenish your casualties. You would feel confident going to war. Am I getting this straight?

Should we be using one of our unit pumps to make less expensive units (warriors) for garrison purposes? or do we just stick the horses in the cities after we capture them?
That would make for a slow war. You also have to take account of the time to get the replacements to the front, the healing time for units wounded in the first attack and the time to get to the second city. I would normally not go up against a civ the size of the Han with fewer than 12-15 units. I prefer decisive battles, at least in the first phase, with enough units at the front to cope with the initial (usually only) counter-attack. After you've broken the civ's backbone you can afford to let troops recover and replenish.

Note also m-b's point about having a stronger force for the capital. I maintain we should go for Beijing early, while we have a strong force.

I don't like building more warriors - we already have quite a lot of them. Horses are going to be our main attack force for a while, and we should continue to build them. Once we have secured our continent we don't need a strong garrison. A small number of fast units can defeat any puny invasion force the AI throws at us from off shore.

Thanks MB - I just would like to get a clarification on one thing though: If you had 5 units .... You would feel confident going to war. Am I getting this straight?

Depends on the level. At deity, each city might have 2 spears and 2 archers. Then you need maybe 6 or 7 horses and your stack will face attack between turns. As I say, you have to judge the rate of losses, versus the rate of production. The only way to do that is to play lots of games. About a year ago I just kept playing random maps to 1000BC. Every night a different one. Gradually I got to know what each AI town would have in it and whether I could take the city or not. No combat calculators or stuff like that. Just genuine experience. Of course my game after 1000BC is rubbish. But the first 80 turns determine your score pretty much. This is wht cracker chose that time period over which to base the QSC Challenge.

Should we be using one of our unit pumps to make less expensive units (warriors) for garrison purposes? or do we just stick the horses in the cities after we capture them?

Not in my opinion. Leave the towns empty. Lower unit costs, fewer shields tied up doing nothing. Every shield, bale of hay and gold piece is an investment. And each one should give a return. When you reach the end of the game, how many warriors and spears do you have in cities that have never moved a muscle, had an enemy unit within 50 tiles of it. And yet the effort you went to to build that unit at the beginning of the game was immense, and you have been paying for him ever since. Of course.. you need a garrison in your settler pumps and worker pumps because they have high pops and you don't want to have to move sliders for one or two cities. This is fine, since the garrison has a job. In this case, the garrison would normally be a spear, since it's upgrade path leads to mech infantry.

When you capture cities - well you might heal the odd horse in them - depends on the flip risk. Normally I would just walk the warriors and the odd spear out of the core (which will never be in any kind of danger) and give these guys a job quelling resistors. This leaves the horses to do their job, and when you get the odd flip, well you lose a warrior. So what? It's just saved you 1gpt.

My official got it.

Nice job Grunthex, I was worried that you had staged our troops in Han territory, but you have not. You also got the scout out of there as well. This will help preserve our reputation when we declare war.

We have 16 Gospodar ready to go, this will kick off our GA (correct?), which will llow us to build more reinforcements quickly. Since the upgrade we are now "Strong" against everyone. Since we are strong I do not think we will get "dogpiled" by the other civs.

It will be interesting to see which iron the Han hooked up. If they did the one by Tatung we will probably cut it off with the capture of Canton.

Since the Han definately have contact with other civs (the 400 gold gain reported confirms this) we need to be careful about breaking any peace deals we make with them, to protect our rep.

I'll play later tonight or in the AM.

I don't think the gospodar is a UU. It's just a unique name for a horse.

Good hunting :thumbsup:

My official got it.
We have 16 Gospodar ready to go, this will kick off our GA (correct?), which will llow us to build more reinforcements quickly. Since the upgrade we are now "Strong" against everyone. Since we are strong I do not think we will get "dogpiled" by the other civs.


No. Gospodar are common horsemen, renamed in this mod. Not a UU - no GA.

Quick Summary:

We have two new contacts and are on the verge of another one. Founded four new cities. Captured Canton, Shanghai & Beijing. Razed Nanking, Hangchow & Anyang. Turn 6 sucked lost 4 gospodar and then 2 more in the IBT.
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preturn 550BC
Review of F3 - we are strong against all known civs
Review of F8 - we are about to take on the strongest of the known civs, 14 cities & #1 in Score, Power graph shows us ahead of them
Review of F11 - we are #1 in pop, GNP & prod, but only #9 in land area - also the top 5 cities all belong to unknown civs
No trades currently available
Looks like the BAE could contact CHO with the Great Lighthouse, but they have to sail by our cities first so we need to watch for a galley
mm Kazan unneeded clown - growth & settler both in 3
change Tabriz from warrior to Harbor
mm Ulaan for food
change Darhan from Gospodar to Harbor ( will be out of food on growth next turn)
changed Mandalgovi from barrack to Harbor ( will be out of food on growth)
changed Tosontsengel from warrior to worker ( since there is a warrior on the chokepoint we can use the worker to improve tiles)
wake warrior in Erdenet move towards Ulaangom
wake gospodar in Tabriz move towars Atlay
shift warrior from Kazan to Tabriz

IBT - na - no new techs

Turn1 - 530BC
Ta-Tu gospodar => gospodar
settler founds Uliastay set to worker
No since in delaying the inevitable - dail up Wu-Ti and extort 75 gold (not sure if there is a rep hit for DoW after a successful extortion so I'll wait 1 turn to issue DoW). This will allow us to get defenders into 2 undefended northern cities.

Contact the RAJAs (India): 10 cities, 5 gold, have silk, down furs & we have tech parity with them

IBT -

Turn2 - 510BC
Hovd gospodar => gospodar
Choybalsan gospodar => gospodar
Tsetserleg worker => worker
Dail up Wu-Ti again and tell him he should not be eating cats & dogs & issue DoW

Battle for Canton
vGos vs rSpear - victory (down 2hp) no promo
vGos vs rSpear - inflict 1 hp of damage & dies - spear promos now at 3/4
vGos vs 3/4 vSpear - we are redlined and retreat inflicting no damage
vGos vs 3/4 vSpear - we are redlined and retreat inflicting no damage
vGos vs 3/4 vSpear - victory (down 1hp) promos to elite & Canton is now ours set to warrior
vGos captures worker in the field

Battle for Nanking
vGos vs rSpear - flawless victory promos to elite
vGos vs rSpear - redlines but is victorious & Nanking autorazes

IBT - na

Turn3 - 490BC
Kazan settler => settler
Almarikh FP => Gospodar
Ulaan barracks => worker
change Atlay from warrior to harbor
found the regional intense barbs (almost a dozen of them)
Hans iron hook up is not at Tatung - pillage a road anyway
move troops towards Beijing
Buy worker from KOR for 27 gold

IBT - Hans Bushi (sword) attacks out of Hangchow & kills one of our gospodar but is redlined
Contact Tokugawa (Japan): 11 cities, 22 gold, have wines, down furs & down CoL

Turn4 - 470BC
KK settler => settler
Ulaan gospodar => gospodar
Ereen worker => harbor
vGos takes out the Bushi

Battle for Beijing
vGos vs rSpear - victory (down 1 hp) no promo
eGos vs rSpear - flawless victory no promo - used elite by mistake
vGos vs rSpear - flawless victory no promo
vGos vs rBushi - inflict 1hp of damage and dies
4/5 eGos vs 2/3 rBushi - redlines but wins, no promos & captures Beijing set to temple (to gain wheat)

IBT - Han warrior attacks gospodar and dies we promo to elite

Turn5 - 450BC
mm KK from FP to mHill
vGos attacks settler & spear - wins capture 2 workers
vGos attack rBushi - inflict 1 hp damage & dies
vGos attacks 2/3rBushi - wins and promos to elite
settler founds Bayanhongor (2N of Choyr, near old Nanking) set to barrack
eGos takes out Han archer near Ulistay - no promo

Battle for Hangchow
vGos vs rSpear - victory (down 2 hp no promo)
vGos vs rSpear - victory (down 1 hp no promo) - captures 2 workers & Hangchow autorazes (I have a settler on its way to found a city 1 NW of old Hngchow)

IBT - Han spear pillages fur

Turn6 - 430BC
Tosontsengel worker => Temple
mm KK

Battle for Shanghai
vGos vs rSpear - we die but redline spear who promos now at 2/4
vGos vs rSpear - we die inflicting 1 hp damage spear who promos now at 3/4
vGos vs rSpear - flawless victory no promo
eGos vs 3/4 vSpear - we redline but win no promo
eGos vs 2/4 vSpear - redlines spear than suffers 5 straight losses and dies
3/4 vGos vs 1/4 vSpear - we die and spear now elite at 2/5
move 2 more vGos into position for next turn

IBT - Han counter attacks takes out 2 gospodars
Minoan complete the Great Wall

Turn7 - 410BC
Ta-Tu gospodar => gospodar
Almarikh gospodar => gospodar
Dala gospodar => settler
Erdenet gospodar => gospodar

Battle for Shanghai continued
vGos vs 4/5 eSpear - redline spear but we die
vGos vs rSpear - victory (1 hp damage) promos to elite
archer and spear still in town

eGos takes out spear who pillaged our furs

Battle for Anyang
vGos vs rSpear - we die
vGos vs rSpear - we win Anyang autorazes
change Batshireet from temple to settler ready next turn (go to area where Anyang was)

IBT - Our next opponent is selected for us - Han sign MA with KOR versus us
Barb galley takes out our northern galley - the landmass north of BAE is full of barbs at least 20 if not more of them

Turn8 - 390BC
KK settler => settler
Hovd gospodar => gospodar
Darhan harnor => gospodar
Choybalsan gospodar => gospodar
Tsetserleg worker => worker
Batshireet settler => settler
settler founds Har-Ayrag (on old Hangchow spot) set to barracks
changed Beijing from temple to warrior
dial up BAE they will enter MA versus KOR & give us dyes for furs & 65gold - I do the deal
reduce lux to 20% from 30%

Battle for Shanghai
eGos vrs 4/5 eSpear - redlines but we finally take out that spear
eGos vs vArcher - we win and capture Shanghai & a worker - set to warrior

IBT - Han Bushi kills a gospodar

Turn9 - 370BC
Tabriz harbor => gospodar
Ulaan gospodar => gospodar
Mandalgovi harbor => cat
Add first section to our Palace

settler founds Nalayh set to barracks
eGos takes out another settler spear pair gaining 2 more workers - no promo

IBT - our galley (just South of that northern landmass) survives 2 barb galley attacks

Turn10 - 350BC
Almarikh gospodar => gospodar
Galley spies a new brown border ( if he survives Barb gallies we should have a new contact)
reposition and heal troops

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Notes to next player
1) We are at war with KOR - I have unloaded 2 gospodar in Tosontsengel and there are 2 more on the galley waiting to unload next turn. There is another waiting to board the galley.
2) We have a galley near a new contact if it survives the barbs
3) Han's are down to 9 cities, 6 of which are size 1 and will autoraze if attacked. I would concentrate on Xinjian & the Tsingtao Brewery as the next 2 targets.
4) No new techs were learned by anyone, even with 2 new contacts (the RAJA do not appear on the F4 screen so use the diplo button to access them)
5) I have a settler 2 tiles W of Uliastay, I think one more move west with him and then found city across the river (gains us 2 cattles)
6) I've been searching the points with the galleys but have not sent any suicides out yet. Tokugawa came from the area West of the CHO and NW of the RAJAs.
7) Hopefully you should get a Great Leder soon which should be used to rush our new Palace in Beijing.

The 350BC Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jump1B_350BC.SAV)

Our new lands
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jump1B_05.jpg

Next Contact & Where the Barbs Are
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jump1B_06.jpg

Wow, nice :hammer: job, Gator!

I think if we take Tsingtao and Xinjian, we could hopefully get Chinan, Chengdu and Tatung in a peace deal -- if not I'd want those cities anyway. Wu-Ti can keep his coastal tundra. Chengdu and Chinan aren't as important as the iron in Tatung for future trades, and to deny Han. They will be first-ring cities some day, but it might be better to shorten the war here to get more horses to Korea.

Xinjian should be moved 1 NW. It'd be on the river, in our 8-ring , and obtain another hill and 2 furs (only thing that tundra has going for it.

It's a shame no one has any new techs for us. Is Emperor normally like this? If so, what have I been afraid of?

I don't really have any more ideas where we go without getting home to see the save. :goodjob:

My, that sounds like a fun set of turns! Well played :goodjob: And more fun to come for all the family with Korea lined up and the Han still to subdue. :D Is he prepared to talk about peace yet?

After we take Xingjian and Tsingtao it might be worth trying for a couple of size one cities in a peace deal to save having to to replace them. We don't want Chengdu though, as that has to go anyway - it's at radius 4. Then we could focus on Korea for 20 turns, and come back later for the rest of China.

Yes he is ready to talk but I never checked what he would offer. Even with the lost units we still have 18 gospodars and we have the free unit support for 50 more units.

Han's are desperate. They are attacking with warriors and the occasional bushi (sword).

I thought I'd post one of these, since I never have!

- DJMGator13: :hammer:'d Han.
- Mistfit: UP!
- AlanH - gettin his pre-game tuneup.
- Nikof (out till the 28th)
- Karasu
- Grunthex:

I can only give a quick glance at our game right now, but does it look good! :goodjob:

@Grunthex: good job too with the roster!! :lol:

I'll try to connect later for discussions.

Yick, we made it to page 2.

It's been 72 hours, are you around anywhere, Mistfit?

I appoligize guys I have had really piss poor luck with my computer at home. I am going to have to request a skip this turn. I thought replacing the CD drive on it last night would have done the trick but it did not. I won't be able to look at it until tonight again.