Here we come, roster B in the SCOUTX succession game.

First things first: the game ;)

Our start:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/scoutxc3c3.jpg

-- 4000 BC --- (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ScoutXB-4000BC.SAV)

Settings
Version: CivIII 1.29f / Mac 1.29f - GOTM modded (see here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1971533&postcount=145) for the necessary downloads)
Level: Emperor
Map: Large, Islands
Barbarians: "regionally intense"
Other: wet and warm, 4 billion years old

Variant Rule: No research - science slider 0% from the beginning to the end of the game, no scientists ever. No studying at home either! I'll be watching you :D

Roster
- AlanH
- Nikof
- Karasu
- Grunthex
- DJMGator13
- Mistfit

Now, of course, a few points on rules and etiquette etc.

- I would go with the standard 10 turns each (20 turns for the first round), 24 hours to post a 'got it' followed by 48 hours to play, upload the save and the log. By the way, past troubles have taught that it is wise to zip the saves before uploading.

- Rather than staying up all night to stick to the time schedule, let's post updates. I mean: anything can happen, of course, and that's not a problem provided one does his best to warn the teammates.
In other words: not being able to play on a Saturday night will not cause a skip just because the 48 hours limit has passed ;) Disappearing from the thread, on the other hand, will.

- I suggest that we follow the GOTM rules, but we can agree on a different set (RBCiv, blindfolded play or whatever)

- Let's avoid the usual stuff that has to be avoided in succession games: no trading on one's last turn, avoid governors and units on long goto-journeys, automating workers, changing all build orders on the inherited turn etc.
In specific cases in which it may be appropriate to do any such thing, let's just raise the point in the thread.

- In general, let us keep the discussion open. As Scout said, this is not a training game... but we love discussing our moves and strategies, and casually chatting and joking about the weather and life in general.
So, let's freely discuss both the approach to each turnset before we play and our recommendations and notes afterwards.

Well... :hmm: I think that's more or less it. Now let's get started ;)

Free post in case we need it

First discussion topics: roster and strategy

Based on Scout's approach to defining the game, I think we should mix the 'golden' and 'silver' paratroopers. Anyone feels like throwing the first stone?

Strategy. A bit early, of course. But lets' start throwing ideas around some obvious things:
- The Great Library
- Any desired victory condition that we may want to pursue
- Comments on the starting position, and on the fact that we seem to have -quite appropriately- a "Scout" with us? ;)

Just saying hello.. I noticed that when I tried to mod my game to GTOM I decided on PTW IPO Civ 3 so I need to start over again. I will start ASAP.


Golly thats a lot of initials....

Hi, just checking in.

For those I've not played with before, I'm a warmonger by instinct, and I've only played a dozen or so games, mostly GOTMs or GOTM-related SGs. We've just completed SGOTM2 in the Xteam. My approach tends to be analytical, so you'll sometimes see excessive mathematical dissertations, which you are free to ignore ;)

Re The Great Library - I think we should capture it if we can - the ultimate in pointy stick research :D

I've loaded up the save as we are the Mongols [party]. So I feel a largely military game coming on, but a spaceship would be a cool end to a 'No Research' game :mischief:

Start:
- Lots of food, not bad for shields with the hills.
- We're standing on flood plain, so we're already on a river.
- The water is salt (food=1) so we're in a coast.
- We are a little north of the equator on the minimap.

We have a scout and should use him to check out the surroundings, but I suspect settling here is as good as anywhere. I would *very* rarely move more than one tile before starting, and the only single tile moves we can make either destroy a bonus resource, or move away from the coast, or move to another flood plain. Moving to the olives might make sense, as the city center gives the same output as the olives tile. But I'd only move there if there are exciting things to the south, as we would lose most of the flood plains. Lots of people worry about flood plain starts, but my view is the disease losses are more than compensated for by the pop growth rate.

So scout south - only one tile as it's a hill. If we see nothing special, settle where we are and start making little Mongols as fast as possible. Worker to a flood plain and irrigate. We have Pottery, so we should be able to build a granary. With careful forestry and micromanagement we might be able to work out a 4 turn, settler factory. Set research to CB before we do anything. When we settle we'll pop the hut, and if we get a tech we want an expensive one. As you don't get what you're researching (or not, in our case), this will avoid popping cheap CB.

My €0.02 :)

"Scoutsouth"... Given our game-master, how could we avoid that... :D

I haven't had a chance to look at the game yet, nor will I until later tonight. But I cannot resist the temptation to throw a few more lines here, to continue in Alan's wake...

Those I have never played with should be aware that I am a peaceful builder by nature, only occasionally forced to wield weapon by the twisted and cruel mechanics of the game (and life in general).

Regarding the Great Library, I agree. Since we are the Mongols, we should also burn it, but we may want to wait until it obsoletes before we do so... :mischief:

I also agree that launching our zero-research space ship would be very cool; as an alternative, a conquest victory would seem in line with our unorthodox R&D approach, as well as with a part of Mongol history. Yes, it would be against my natural playstyle, but I can force myself into playing an aggressive game for once.
That's assuming we win of course. If we suffer a Conquest defeat, well... that will be too in line with the spirit of the variant :ack:

Regarding the initial move and our tech path as the Mongols... ehm... I have forgotten everything.
When I come back from lunch I'll search for that information for those of us who missed GOTM25

"Scoutsouth"... Given our game-master, how could we avoid that... :D :lol:

Regarding the Great Library, I agree. Since we are the Mongols, we should also burn it, but we may want to wait until it obsoletes before we do so... :mischief: I see we have a literary giant in our midst :rolleyes:

I also agree that launching our zero-research space ship would be very cool; as an alternative, a conquest victory would seem in line with our unorthodox R&D approach, as well as with a part of Mongol history. Yes, it would be against my natural playstyle, but I can force myself into playing an aggressive game for once.I agree a miltary win has to be our target. Note that this is 'islands'. If we find we have too many one tile islands to acquire by negotiation, it may be better to go for domination. Amphibious war is rather high on the tech tree for a gang of hooligans without a test tube between us.

I really can't see how we could launch a spaceship, but it was interesting to speculate about it for a few nanoseconds :hmm:

Does anyone feel strongly about making peace for techs and declaring war immediately? Ie do we want to play by RBCiv honourable rules, or shall we follow the Mongol destiny of all-out, no holds barred, rape and pillage?

That's assuming we win of course. If we suffer a Conquest defeat, well... that will be too in line with the spirit of the variant :ack:It may be in the spirit of the variant, but it's not even an option as far as I'm concerned :eek:

Regarding the initial move and our tech path as the Mongols... ehm... I have forgotten everything.
When I come back from lunch I'll search for that information for those of us who missed GOTM25

I played and enjoyed GOTM 25 enormously. The Mongol hordes were really at home on the plains of that pangeia, with their fast movement. I'm not sure they are so well suited to an island world ... we'll see :hmm:

Here's a quick rundown of our special units. Using these unit names you can get more details of A/D/M and so on from the Civilopedia:

We can already build Mangudai Bowmen and Nomad Warriors. Bowmen upgrade to Khorchin, one of our UUs, with horses and Invention. Warriors upgrade to Anda Swordsmen with Iron, and to Turghaut Cavalry, another UU, with Feudalism and Horses. Bowmen will be important if we share our starting island with anyone, including barbs. We'll be able to milk neighbours for techs by trade and force, and barbs for 25 gold per camp.

Our early horseman is the Gospodar, an upgrade from Chariot wth HBR, and he upgrades to the Ordu Archer, our third UU, at Invention. The fourth and final UU is the Bagatur Horde, which is basically unstoppable. It needs Chivalry, Horses and Iron, and if we can build these before there are too many muskets around we should be able to finish the game.

Some of these units have bombard capability, the Khorchin's bombard can even be lethal IIRC. These units lend themselves to combined arms operations, with some units providing effective defensive cover and others used as artillery, while the Hordes are the primary attackers.

Ordu Archers upgrade to Cavalry, the other three can retire as Steppe Settlers to settle conquered lands. Useful if you are looking for fast domination, and an incredibly cool unit animation as they dismount, unpack, and set up home.

GOTM 25 was pangeia. Islands changes things a bit. We'll need Alphabet/Writing/MapMaking as high priorities to be able to meet other civs and reduce the trade cost of techs. We'll need Bronze/Iron and Wheel/HBR in order to build our second teir attackers - Swords and Gospodar. We also need Monarchy, I suggest, as this will allow us to operate in the almost perpetual state of war that will be needed to conquer lots of islands. Then we need Chivalry, then Invention. If we can reach these two middle age techs without being too far behind we can win.

There was a special pre-game Halloween treat exercise created by Cracker before GOTM 25 started, giving a taste of how these units work together. The thread is in the GOTM Quick Gmes sub-forum here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=67238). It may be a good idea for each of us to at least download the start file (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/saves/treat_game_v129_open.zip) for this game and load it to check that our mod installations are good to go. If you also play this file you'll get a really good ideal of what the units can do. The link I've given is the Open/Monarch-level one, and I've checked that it still works. There are also Regent and Deity files in Cracker's first post.

The spaceship launch with no research variant has been done (at least at monarch).
The inability of the AI to pre-build actually makes it quite straightforward.

The most difficult victory condition for this variant is 20K IMO.

Well, if it's doable I have no objection to trying. We could target the domination limit asap, then we can decide from there whether it looks as if we can build a spaceship. We probably need to keep more civs alive on small islands as research pets than we would if w were going for conquest. Unfortunately it's vanilla, so we are unlikely to get a lot of free techs from Scientific civs.

Here's the list of our rivals from the F10 screen. Ottomans and Russia are usually scientific, but heaven knows which of the others are.

Cultured Mongols is, I feel, an oxyoron :mischief:

:lol:

Do you want me to supply a list?

Apple computers! now there's an oxymoron. :rolleyes:

Checking in. I'm looking forward to this - many thinks to scoutsout and mad-bax for setting the game up! And to our Jumpmasters. Hey - aren't they the guys who push you out of airplanes??? :hmm:

Re: wonders, although the GL would be nice, is it realistic to expect that we'll have early enough contact with the civ who builds it, given that we have islands on a large map?
- and a question: is "islands" essentially archipelago, or does it mean mad-bax has set us up with many, many tiny, tiny dots of land? :)
- should we try for the Lighthouse, for the +1 movement and galleys don't sink at sea? It would help with setting up an earlier trading network, I think. However I'm not familiar with GOTM variant naval units or rules that might change that calculation.

Re: Mongols, that's a lot of new units for little old Vanilla me! Thanks AlanH for the intro and the GOTM 25 tip, I'll definitely check that out.

Re: rules and etiquette, sounds good. GOTM rules work for me.

Re: victory, I have a mild preference for going conquest/domination, since I'm a bit of a builder by nature (becoming less so...) and would learn more there, I think. But I'm happy to go with the group's preference.

Re: turn order, I'd like to play in the first half of the roster, if that's okay. I'm out of town without Civ on July 12-28, so I'd like to play a turn before I leave! I'll check out the start position this evening, and learn all about those funny-looking resources...

Cheers,
nikof

Yes please. I could scratch it out of the save with a hex editor, I s'pose, but I'd rather not.

Hah! Don't get me started on Windoze :gripe:

Gator checking in.

I'm a competent CivIII Emporer level sometime Diety level player,I play mostly Emporer on C3C. Started playing GOTM at number 28 (I played 29 but forgot to submit it), so this is my first Mongol experience. I will definately look over the "Treat" save before playing.

As far as AlanH and his numbers, I'm a CPA so hopefully I'll be able to keep up :lol:.

As far as a Space win on a no research that sounds very difficult. More with having to wait for the other civs to get and trade the tech. If we were able to research in the Modern Age I would say go for it, but since we can't research the AI seems to be very stingy with trading those Modern Age techs.

As for other variants, maybe we can be the first to use the "Rape & Pillage Non-Oscillating War (NOW)" variant, maybe even throw in a xCC variant. This would allow us to sign alliances and continue to trade with other civs, until their turn comes up. We would be allowed to sue for peace gaining cities & techs but must immediately redeclare war, allowing the enemy civ their counterattacks on the IBT. This would definately be a Conquest/Domination goal.

As for our opening moves, I think we should stay off the olive hill. Mined that hill will give 2/2/2 in Despot, as a center square we would loss the second shield. We easily have 15 food at size 5 but only 6 shields, although with enough preparations we can still get a 4 turn settler factory, using a mOlive hill (2/2/2), a mSheep hill (2/3/2), 3 iFP (9/0/3) and our center square (2/1/1). The growth turns to size 6 & 7 would need to go to a 2spt tile then moved to a 2f/1s tile to give us a 6/8/7/9 shield yield.

Is it better to settle in spot or to move the settler W to the forest as far as the disease issue goes. IIRC disease is possible when a citizen is working a FP tile, so even founding the city in the forest we would still be subject to disease. Plus I would hate to give up the forest chop which could help rush a granary or a settler and the possiblility of that tile being a BG. We need all the shields we can get.

As far as the roster order, I like the alternating suggestion of "Masters" and "Jumpers" order. I do not mind playing first, but if someone else wants that is fine. Since Karasu and AlanH both have more playing experience than myself I defer to them on the roster order.

BTW, its a little late now since Karasu hs already established the thread but I was think of our thread title along the lines of "Jumpmaster 1B: We Don't Need No Education" or better yet "Jumpmaster 1B: Science? We don't need no stinking Science".

Re. Roster, I should have said I'll play anywhere, and don't mind going first as long as we've all agreed on the general plan before we start.

It's a good plan to alternate the gold and silver players. I'm just not sure which category I'm in :hmm:

I like "power is knowledge" too. A nice irony. I like a play on words that I know will travel about a foot above most peoples heads.

I was think of our thread title along the lines of "Jumpmaster 1B: We Don't Need No Education" or better yet "Jumpmaster 1B: Science? We don't need no stinking Science".

:lol: Definitely better than mine... had I known I wouldn't have stayed up all night thinking of a title ;)

BTW, I am starting to believe that Nikof is sort of volunteering for the starting turns, or just after Alan... :mischief: hopefully, you'll get to play three or even four rounds before you leave.

Oh, and -any news of Grunthex? Has he overcome his installation troubles?

EDIT: Thanks, Mad. I haven't spent the night in vain then ;)

Checking in. Got my chute, left my nerves on the ground. I think.

Since I'm new to everyone, I should introduce myself.

I've been playing Civ since the beginning, way back to the original. Never really got past Regent until this year, since I'm a complete turtle builder at heart. I've recently won my first and second Monarch games, and one of them was on Archipelago no less which is normally my big weak point. I'm learning to let my urge to bash things out - now I just need to PLAN before I declare the wars.

In terms of roster, I like the idea of alternating stronger and weaker players (and I'm definitely the second on this difficulty level). I'd also like to be around 4-5-6 in the roster. I'll be tied up for most of the weekend (time to comment in the evenings, little time to play) this weekend, and the next two.

In terms of the start, I'm a definite believer that you settle in place unless you can see some pressing need to move, and I can't. I agree we start with a flood plain, then we probably move south to start forestry to help a granary build?

And lastly I'd be interested in going for a violent-style victory on an 'islands' map. Still curious how big these islands are.

Ok, I lied about lastly. City-settling. I assume that at this level, we'd have to go to a 3 or 4 spacing, I'll have to smack down my OCP habits immediately. Realize this is a bit early for the discussion. I just like to talk!

EDIT: Thanks, Mad. I haven't spent the night in vain then ;)

I'm not sure it was worth an entire night Karasu. I can think of better things to do with an entire night. Could probably play 100 turns or more. :D

As for our opening moves, I think we should stay off the olive hill. Mined that hill will give 2/2/2 in Despot, as a center square we would loss the second shield. We easily have 15 food at size 5 but only 6 shields, although with enough preparations we can still get a 4 turn settler factory, using a mOlive hill (2/2/2), a mSheep hill (2/3/2), 3 iFP (9/0/3) and our center square (2/1/1). The growth turns to size 6 & 7 would need to go to a 2spt tile then moved to a 2f/1s tile to give us a 6/8/7/9 shield yield.

Is it better to settle in spot or to move the settler W to the forest as far as the disease issue goes. IIRC disease is possible when a citizen is working a FP tile, so even founding the city in the forest we would still be subject to disease. Plus I would hate to give up the forest chop which could help rush a granary or a settler and the possiblility of that tile being a BG. We need all the shields we can get.

As you say, the probability of flood plain disease inceases as you work more flood tiles. Building on the flood plain means we'll always be working one flood tile, even though we'll not be getting the food benefit from it.

The sheep won't give us three shields in despot as it's at 1 + 1 currently and hasn't absorbed the despot penalty. No point mining it until we get to Monarchy or Republic.

I initially didn't like the idea of moving west away from the coast, but it may not be a bad idea and I'm warming to it. There are definitely more forests W and SW, so we don't lose all forestry options. It does mean we only get disease probability from tiles we are getting a food benefit from. It would usually be a bad idea to build one tile from the coast, but in this case we are on an island, space will be tight, and settling there will allow us to build two more towns close by on the coast at RCP distances 3-3.5. It also has river defensive bonus on three sides on the landward direction. We lose access to the rocks (1/1/2 - not a big deal) and a flood plain over the water that we may not be able to develop anyway. It looks like we pick up some plains and more river to the W/NW. Yes, I like it :thumbsup:

So perhaps the first turn is scout->goody hut then west to the hill. Worker starts irrigating. Settler moves west if the western terrain looks good.

Ok, I lied about lastly. City-settling. I assume that at this level, we'd have to go to a 3 or 4 spacing, I'll have to smack down my OCP habits immediately. Realize this is a bit early for the discussion. I just like to talk!
Hello :wavey: No, it's not early, as I think it can affect our early decisions on roads and even, as I indicated, on first city position.

I have never been in favour of OCP. Settlers take a long time getting to sites, you waste lots of tiles that can't be worked by small town populations, you can't share defensive troops/MPs between cities because the distances are too far, you have to build temples or libraries just to join up your culture border, dada ... dada ..... and you don't get any benefit from it until after Sanitation by which time you should've won or lost

My preferred placement is RCP at 3-3.5 and then 6 or 7 according to how the rivals are positioned. On an island it's going to be even more important to squeeze towns close together. I got about 15 close-packed towns on the starting island in the recent Spanish GOTM, and had a really productive and effective civ as a result.

The sheep won't give us three shields in despot as it's at 1 + 1 currently and hasn't absorbed the despot penalty. No point mining it until we get to Monarchy or Republic.

Good point, but are you positive? I just looked back at my GOTM29 and a mined Wool hill was giving 2f/3s in despot. The food was reduced but not the shields. Does the penalty only apply to one item (either food or shield) and not both? I usually only notice it affecting (reducing) food.

You're right! But for the wrong reason! Mining a hill gives you two shields, not one. One goes to the despot penalty and you get the other as a third shield. Thanks!

I have never been in favour of OCP. Settlers take a long time getting to sites, you waste lots of tiles that can't be worked by small town populations, you can't share defensive troops/MPs between cities because the distances are too far, you have to build temples or libraries just to join up your culture border, dada ... dada ..... and you don't get any benefit from it until after Sanitation by which time you should've won or lost


Oh, I know! I just haven't been able to break myself of the habit, even knowing it was killing me. It was just so beautiful in the Modern Ages...

My last couple of games I've been FORCING myself to go to a 4-4.5 distance, and I'm already seeing the increased benefits... but it's still a fight every time I get a settler. :) Needless to say I'm looking forward to the dotmapping session to see if I can plan one of these super-crazy-tight builds.

@AlanH

I like being right even if for the wrong reason :lol: which is how it usually happens.

Question on the Treat save: The zip for it had some other files to load, but if I'm already modded to the new MB-GOTM mod do I still need to load those other files?

EDIT: It loads and all the units display and are in the Civlopedia in my reg GOTM modded version. Looks like those other files are not needed (already included).

Ok got some sleep. Howdy to all of the team members. I am a monarch level player on pretty much all three civ titles I have played for about 6-8 months. It seems that most of my victories come by U.N. or space, so I guess that puts me in the builder catagory. I would be very interested in getting pointers on early war mongering. I stink at mathmatics, so don't expect to many long posts from me in that arena. I would really enjoy winning this one by force. Mongols in Space or Gengis the Peacemaker does not quite have the right ring to my ears. I have not got my civ modded yet, I have to wait for tomorrow to download the gotm stuff (expect questions from me when I get home and try to set this up tomorrow evening)

Let's have at 'er

AlanH - Congrats on SGOTM2 finish.

I have potential roster order, since the first player gets 20 turns and everyone else gets 10 how about:


- Karasu (Since he'll be unavailable in August lets get him as many early rounds as possible)
- Nikof (1st jumper to sign up & could sneak in 2 or 3 rounds before he is unavailable late july)
- AlanH
- Grunthex (2nd of the Jumpers to sign up)
- DJMGator13
- Mistfit (3rd of the Jumpers to sign up)

We may want to reshuffle the roster in August when Karasu is on vacation.

Roster works for me!

Did you notice this quote from mad-bax?
"You're on an island, and you can't research anything, and it's emperor level, and I've given extra units to some of the civs.... Just pause for thought..."

Do we have a back-up plan if there aren't any other civs on our island to research for us? Sit on the coast and wait for a ship to come by? :mischief:

Build big slingshots. Fire units across straights. :crazyeye:

But let's assume Mad-bax gave us someone to :hammer: on. The terrain west of start looks yellower, and I think we're more likely to have land in that direction. South/southwest being greener I think means we're more likely to have the shore that way. Ok, so it's a guess. It's the best I've got for now!

My install should be good tomorrow, I got sort of caught up in a little after work going-away party. Until then, what exactly HAS M-B modded on us? In GOTM 25 where these nice units came from, it seemed like there was a custom tech-tree. Do we get something different there, to go with the units and resources?

No. The tech tree is starndard. Tech-trees are difficult to mod quickly, so I went for low risk.

The roster looks fine to me. I'd gladly swap position with Alan, as he was already available to start the game and I am spending a couple of day at my mother's... without Civ... :eek:

If no other adjustments are needed, we can kick the game off (I'll update the roster in the first post).

------------

It seems there to be a slight preference for the bloodshed over the peaceful victory conditions. Are we going to confirm this and decide to go for domination / conquest (depending on the one-tile islands), or do we want to discuss a bit more the options?

------------

I managed to give a look at the start position -by the names of the other civs and of the additional files, it seems that MB has been pretty busy adding exotic units -I am starting to suspect that it's slightly more than "the odd unit here and there"... ;)

Moving the settler W and found on the forest is tempting and would most probably make a better use of the available land (well, from the little we can see in the starting picture).
But we would loose access to the sea, which might be quite important.
And we would not pop the second hut with border expansion (ok, a minor point, but still nice to have).

Regarding the scout: moving 1NW1W on the hill seems preferable to me, especially if we consider the fact that we start the game quite close to the south pole.

Roster works for me!
Me too. if Karasu wants to swap that's cool too.

Do we have a back-up plan if there aren't any other civs on our island to research for us? Sit on the coast and wait for a ship to come by? :mischief:
There's nothing else we can do. We'll have to sit eagle-eyed scouts on headlands and look for neighbouring islands, and hope we can shout across to exchange techs. If that doesn't work, by definition, a ship will bring with it all teh necessary techs to allow us to go a-sailing. We'll have to use those river tiles to best effect to build a solid treasury so that we can buy them when they appear.

But we would loose access to the sea, which might be quite important.Only until we can pop a settler and build a seaside resort. That can happen quite fast if we prioritise it over the granary. Meanwhile we can't use sea access for anything until we have Map Making, so I doubt if we'll miss it. The only hazard would be if the AI grabs all the coastline before we can pop a settler. But if they are settling that close already we'll have bigger problems on our hands.:eek:

Sorry for the double post

If I'm UP, then I've GOT IT, but I'll wait for confirmation of the roster before I start, plus any last comments on my proposed starting moves:

Research to CB in case we pop a tech, scout NW to hut then west to check the western terrain. If it looks like we have a settler factory then move settler west to forest and build Karakorum (see, I've done some GOTM 25 revision :D ), in 3950 BC, and nail the science slider firmly to the left hand endstop.

We shall need to review whether a settler factory is appropriate as we explore. That will depend on the space and the competition for it. But for safety, our early moves should assume it is.

As we are delaying our start by one turn, and the space we have to explore may not be very big, I'm thinking we should build a warrior first rather than a scout to discourage an early sneak attack on our capital. A warrior will also come in handy as an MP and will pay for himself fairly soon, as we only get one content citizen at Emperor. When we've seen a bit more of the space and terrain, we can choose our next builds from archer/warrior/scout.

By the end of my turns we'll have to decide whether we want to pop a settler before building a granary. Again, I think that depends on the competition for space. If we have time we should probably build a granary, as we'll then be able to flood the available space with a city every four turns. If we are in danger of having nowhere left to settle then we should pop a settler and get down to working out how to build our territory using pointy sticks.

Lemme know when we're good to go. If there are any really serious surprises during the first 20 I'll come back for discussion before committing us.

Fine with me, Alan. Let the game begin :)

Ok with buiding a warrior first. Actually, the map being islands we may not even need more than a couple of Scouts.

Good point on the granary too: if we haven't got too much land to settle, we may even want to reconsider building it at all. Even more so if we find one or two food bonuses near the starting position.


EDIT: updated the roster, here we go:

- AlanH: up and forming the first Mongol hordes
- Nikof: warming up
- Karasu
- Grunthex
- DJMGator13
- Mistfit

Sounds good to me.

With all that FP we could probably get 1 settler out before building the granary. But we are going to need several workers if we go settler factory route for capital.

@our Jumpers: once you get your modded Civ up you should definately play a few rounds of the GOTM25 Treat that AlanH posted. Very neat units. AlanH did a nice quick write-up on them also. He only left off 1 unit that was in the Treat - the Bagator Horde, which is a nice 3(6)/2/3 unit, that can retire as a Steppe Settler.

Warming up here (i.e., time to pause GOTM and get this game installed!)

Quick question - is there any difference between popping a hut with a unit, as opposed to with border expansion?

Sounds good to me. I don't think we should choose our victory conditions until we have most of the map plotted out. We could be setting ourselves up for hardship if the map does not match up with the direction we choose.



Edit: Land info

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/know.jpg

Edit#2: are we playing with the different water movemet values? How about squids?

AlanH did a nice quick write-up on them also. He only left off 1 unit that was in the Treat - the Bagator Horde, which is a nice 3(6)/2/3 unit, that can retire as a Steppe Settler.

:cough:
The fourth and final UU is the Bagatur Horde, which is basically unstoppable. It needs Chivalry, Horses and Iron, and if we can build these before there are too many muskets around we should be able to finish the game.


@Mistfit: Just a personal opinion - I'm not sure that using mapstat is a valid move at this stage. I reckon it's a spoiler until you get the full map by your own efforts, and that's the rule I work to in GOTM. So for now, I haven't looked at your table beyond seeing where it came from.

Sorry for the delay, I think the forum must have dropped my subscription to this thread - I was wondering why it was so quiet after my previous posting frenzy :hmm:

Thanks for the feedback, guys. I'll get stuck in. Back in a while ...

@AlanH - RE: Bagatur Horde - :blush: oops - I even printed out your post and I still missed it. :lol


@nikof - I'm not positive but I think when a GH is popped by Cultural expansion it will not give barb warriors.

Just realized I hadn't properly introduced myself in this thread. How rude.

I've been playing Civ3 (vanilla only) for less than 3 months. Have a Monarch diplo victory under my belt. Had been working on my first Emperor game, playing the Russians towards spaceship, but it's on hold now. I think it was going okay, I finally took half of my starting continent from the Greeks, with the Romans stuck in the jungles down south. Had to re-load a save when the two of them ganged up on me very early - chalked that segment up as a "loss".

GOTM 32 is going much better, despite a few boneheaded moves. (Hey, if you chop the forest providing the only shields around, several resources still won't get you a 4-turn factory! :-/ ) And no re-loads, of course. Haven't posted on the spoiler thread yet because I'm trying to play enough to finish. The continent is mine, and I'm milking :-) and waiting for some military advances to take over enough other territory to approach the domination limit.

What else? Biggest constraint on my playing right now is 3-month-old Joseph.
Pros: Cute smile! :-D I'm up at 3am anyway, why not play some Civ?
Cons: Time consuming. Hard to concentrate on tactical niceties when a baby is squalling in your ear.

A few things I've been thinking/wondering:
1) Can any of the Mongol UUs trigger a golden age?
2) Has anyone seen a good summary table of worker-turns-to-complete-improvements? My combinations of workers is often less than exact.
3) I fully agree with keeping an extra warrior around the new cities for MP/defense, surprise attacks hurt me in my Emperor game.

Thing I write to myself most often in my Civ notes: "Play Slower!"

Cheers,
nikof

p.s. "Power is Knowledge" - heh, I love it!

A few things I've been thinking/wondering:
1) Can any of the Mongol UUs trigger a golden age?
2) Has anyone seen a good summary table of worker-turns-to-complete-improvements? My combinations of workers is often less than exact.
3) I fully agree with keeping an extra warrior around the new cities for MP/defense, surprise attacks hurt me in my Emperor game.

Thing I write to myself most often in my Civ notes: "Play Slower!"


#1) Don't know I was going to ask AlanH the same question.

#2) Very good article (understatement, should be required reading) in the War Academy by Cracker on Improving Your Opening Play and the Forestry section has a worker turn chart. Here is a link to it. (http://www.civfanatics.com/doc/civ3/cracker/civ3_starts/) EDIT: The Terrian Basic section has a very nice chart on irrigating vrs mining bonuses.

"Play Slower" - taking notes as you play for your turn report will force you to play slower.


EDIT: Cross posted with MB - nice chart.

1. They all can.
2. >>HERE<< (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=1295565#post1295565)
3. Usually wise ;)

Turn 0 4000 BC
Set research to CB.
Check prefs to ensure that stop at end of turn is ON and that darned book cursor is OFF.
Settler NW to hut. We get Bronze Working [dance]
Scout sees wheat on the FP within our proposed capital's radius. :D
There's more FP to the north. We are going to make lots of little Mongols around here.
Scout West to hill. Sees more sheep to the W/NW
We can see lots of plains on the river to the west. Good stuff, lots of shields.
Our proposed city site would have:
1 x FP/wheat
4 x FP
1 x sheep/hill/river
1 x olives/hill/river
3 x forest river
3 x plains river
1 x hill/river
2 x coast
1 x desert
2 x ?? forest
This is a great settler factory :cool:
Settler west to forest, confirms the hidden tiles are also forest.
Worker starts to irrigate the start tile FP.

Turn 1 3950 BC
Found Karakorum -> warrior (4)
Sliders to 10.0.0 for Mongol-speed research and 4 gpt into the piggy bank
Citizen works sheep/hill
Scout west sees coast to SW, west again to coast, sees whale tail and goody hut

Turn 2 3900 BC
Scout to goody hut, gets a settler [dance] I :love: this game!
Scout NW on coast
Settler heads SE towards RCP 3.5 location on the hill by the river.

Turn 3 3850 BC
Settler SE to coastal hill on river. Sees a second whale tail, but a site to get both would not be on the river.
Scout N, E to hill and sees another goody hut.

Turn 4 3800 BC
Worker completes irrigation starts road
MM Karakorum for 1 shield and extra food from FP to complete warrior in 1 turn.
Found Ta-Tu on west coast, start a worker (10 turns)
Scout N on hill towards hut.
Now earning 6 gpt

IBT:
An AI unit appears across the water and pops the goody hut over there.
Karakorum Warrior -> Warrior

Turn 5 3750 AD
Contact Korean Ashigura Footman (spearman stats)
Korea is polite, has Alphabet and 10 gold, needs Warrior Code. Already has Bronze and Pottery.
No deals available, if we offer all we have (28 gp + 6 gpt + WC) we are close to a deal.
Warrior SE to sheep hill to do a little local exploring to the south while our long range scout heads north-ish. Warrior sees wheat on grass, and a coast to the south. Looks like we are near the southern end of a land mass.
Scout north to the hut and we get ... the Wheel [party]
We can see horses a short distance north of Ta-Tu.
Back to Korea then, with our new-found technology.
We can have Alphabet + 10 for Wheel + WC.
Or we can have Alphabet for Wheel + 28 gp + 1 gpt.
I decide to take the first option. I prefer to keep our treasury strong, and Warrior Code might become obsolete for trading purposes if Korea meets someone else.

Turn 6 3700 BC
Warrior SE to olives hill. Sees more coast on both sides of the narrow channel.
Scout N, E, Sees more river, forest, FP.

Turn 7 3650 BC
Worker completes road, moves NW to second FP.
Warrior South, see fish
Scout NE, N, sees fish

Turn 8 3600 BC
MM Karakorum for growth next turn at maximum shields.
Ensure governor is set to manage production and not moods. Don't want an entertainer, thanks!
Scout North
Worker starts irrigation.
Warrior West

Turn 9 3550 BC
Karakorum grows to pop 2
Slider to 9.0.1 to control happiness
Warrior South
Scout NW, NW to mountain, sees horses, rivers, hills. This looks like a big island!
Korea still has sero gold and no cities.

Turn 10 3500 BC
Warrior heads back North towards Karakorum to take up MP duties.
Scout W, SW to hill

IBT Karakorum completes warrior2 and starts a granary. Its borders expand.

Turn 11 3450 BC
Scout west, sees more sheep
Warrior2 east on the road, and north to check out the east coast north of Karakorum.

Turn 12 3400 BC
Worker completes irrigation and starts road
Warrior2 north on coast
Warrior1 back into Karakorum for some R&R and to entertain the ladies.
Slider 10.0.0, +7 gpt
Scout West, sees a hut, pops it for 25 gold, sees furs
Korea still has zilch

Turn 13 3350 BC
Warrior2 north, sees local furs north of Karakorum. So we shall have one luxury :rolleyes:
Scout south, south, sees lambs

IBT Ta-tu completes worker2, starts barracks

Turn 14 3300 BC
Warrior2 North on coast
Scout W,W, sees cows x 2
MM Karakorum for growth next turn at maximum shields
Worker2 to plain for irrigation duties

IBT karakorum grows to pop 3

Turn 15 3250 BC
Worker2 starts irrigating
Warrior2 NW on coast
Scout W, N, sees horse
Korea has CB, wants over 100 for it. There's no hurry, and the price will come down if we meet someone else.
Slider to 9.0.1 to keep Karakorum happy.

Turn 16 3200 BC
Start chopping the forest SW of Karakorum. This will provide shields for the first settler.
Warrior2 N
Scout W, NW to hell, sees NW coast.

Turn 17 3150 BC
Scout NE, N. Warrior NE

Turn 18 3100 BC
Warrior NE, sees oysters. Scout NE, N sees hut

IBT Warrior meets Han warrior on the NE coast. We are not alone on this landmass!
Karakorum grows to pop 4

Turn 19 3050 BC
Meet Han. He's cautious, has 44 gold, furs, Masonry and also has no cities! This is not Emperor as I'm used to seeing it!
He needs Alphabet, Pottery, Wheel. We have a trading opportunity. Let's deal :D

Give Korea 114 gold for CB
Give Alphabet+Wheel+Pottery to Han for Masonry+33 gold
Sell Masonry to Korea for 99 gold.

We gained Masonry+CB+18 gold
We are at tech parity with Korea and we are ahead of Han by CB.

Set our massive team of scientists to research Mathematics, flat out at zero cost.
Scout NE to hut and pops Mysticism, moves north to hill on NW coast
Warrior NW
Worker completed irrigation, starts road.
Slider to 8.0.2 to keep Karakorum happy

IBT Han warrior heads in our general direction

Turn 20 3000 BC
I decide to turn warrior2 back towards Karakorum, just in case Han's warrior gets any bright ideas. He heads south, cutting off the Han direct path down the coast.
Scout moves east ,east, sees the Han light blue border.

State of the nations:

Scores are Mongols 117, Han and Korea 89
Korea has a second city. We are up CB on Han, and Mysticism on both.
We have two cities, no improvements, two warriors, one scout, two workers.

We have a granary in 5 turns in Karakorum, and currently it is set to grow to pop 5 on the same turn. We will want to slow that growth by one turn without slowing the granary build. This will leave the granary full. Karakorum has a variety of combinations of spt and fpt available for fine tuning - a micromanager's dream. So this will be easy to arrange. There's a forest chop that will complete on turn six, putting ten shields in the production bin towards a settler. So we should queue a settler after the granary, and we can then pop a settler four turns later, as the city reaches pop 7. We'll need some serious entertainment tax when Karakorum reaches pop 6, so let's watch for, and avoid riots. Warrior2 can return to base as an MP to help with this.

Here's a screenshot of our world, and the zipped save:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Mongols_3000BC.jpg

Well, I got everything installed (Thanks Gator) and tried to shadow along your turns (to see how a flood plains start should be done)

My seed went a little off right away, not giving me The Wheel from a hut, so I couldn't duplicate the trades. It also showed differently when I finally met the Han, as he had a second city (though I don't know where!) ... I was able to mimic your moves absolutely (there was one typo in your log, you said you sent the scout NE, N, but it was really NE, E). And I learned absolutely nothing new, except for the importance of paying attention to micromanagement. Which isn't NEW, but it reinforced.

Question: I grew to size 3 right when you did, but my size 4 fell a turn behind -- once you hit 3, did you MM back to the FP, or stay on the olives hill for a bit? It's hard to tell since in the save you're on the hill.

I was going to try my hand at a dot-map, but Paint really sucks for this. I gotta find a better editor. Here's my thoughts. All are based on the 3-3.5 Ring.

A city one NE of the FP+Wheat in Karakorum's borders. This gets us close to the furs (should be taken once we have our second ring city (7-7.5? or 6-6.5?)

3 NW of Karakorum on the hill. We could go one NE or one SW of this with the same ring, but this maximizes the food available, and the loss of one hill is minimal in this environment.

South of the olive hill. Gets another wheat, can share it's high production tiles as needed with Karakorum. Looks to me like it'd need a cultural expansion some day to reach real usefullness., but still the best spot on the ring that way.

Last, 2 SE of Ta-Tu. Crowding things. I don't know if it's really needed, but it's a possibility.

Is Karakorum a good capital for us? There's a lot of nice land out that way, that will be too corrupt to use. Do we start thinking about designing rings from a future city to the Northwest somewhere? I've never USED RCP, by the time I discovered it, I was on C3C.

End babbling here. Wait for input.

Alan :banana: :goodjob:

This is no research game and you have us up techs. Beautiful.


@ nikof - Please do not be offended by my next question. Have you managed a 4 turn settler factory in any of your games? The idea is to keep food at +5 fpt. Since Alan set the governor to emphasize production on the turn the city grow the new citizen will be placed on the highest shield tile available. Once the city grows we want to micromanage the city back to +5fpt. I can post or link you to some examples.

Do not be shy about asking questions. I know this is not a TDG, but we do want to help our Jumpers improve.

Two techs and a settler.. Not bad...OMG thats awe inspiring. Great turns. I plan to be modded tomorrow (acutally later today) I'll check back in once I sleep some and check the save.

Great going! :goodjob:

A few random thoughts:
- Suggested city sites look good. I would claim the southern wheat first; a city 3S of KK would be perfect, but that's distance 4.5...
- The question on capital placement is very good: we have very little room around Karakorum, so we will definitely have to establish a second larger core somewhere else.
It is clearly a bit too early right now to decide, but we should decide very soon whether we want to build the FP next to KK and jump the palace later, or rely on a GL ro rush the FP far away, or whatever.
In the first case, it will be wise to pay attention to the city placement around the FP city too.
- Military. With our cheap UUs being on the upgrade path of almost every AA unit, we can happily start building all we want for a massive later upgrade.
Not having to buy the early MA techs becomes at this point a strong argument in favour of getting the Great Library.
We may also want to consider an Ancient Age aggression on the Han with Horses and swords, depending on how the game evolves.


EDIT (I always forget...)
- AlanH: built the foundations of a glorious Mongol empire ;)
- Nikof: up
- Karasu: already dreaming of mongol hordes
- Grunthex
- DJMGator13
- Mistfit

After a night's sleep:

Yes, a nice fast start with all those goodie hut techs and the settler. I felt it was important to get a second city producing than to wait around for more information, but in the cold light of day I realise I should have settled on the east coast, near the flood plain wheat. It would have taken a few turns to get there, but with all the food in that area the two cities could have shared the tiles and still produced a settler every four turns, plus rapid worker production. As ever, food is power, and, as we know, power is knowledge ;) BTW, I haven't said yet that I think that's a great strap line :thumbsup:

I still like the northern wheat site for more than a couple of reasons:

1, Karakorum can be a four turn settler factory without even using the wheat, and it already has two FP tiles prepped, so another city could use the wheat.

2. It's development towards our only known rival on this land mass. Always a good thing. Our early land grap has to be northwards. The southern site is unlikely to be competed for until Map Making appears.

3. It's heading for the only known lux.

4. I am pre-judging that we will probably build our Forbidden Palace somewhere to the north of Karakorum and plan to transfer our capital to Han territory. The northern wheat city would be a second mature city in the FP's core.

5. The southern wheat will be hard work to irrigate (24 worker turns to chop, irrigate and road to it) so we'd probably use it for a shield and 3 food. Food is power, and we can get 5 fpt food from the northern wheat.

6. I'm still feeling guilty about not having settled there already :blush:

@Grunthex: Yes, huts are a real lottery. It sounds like in your game the Han got a settler. What did you get, BTW?

I don't recall the precise citizen allocations for the pop increase to 4, but I do recall sticking to the flood plain for a bit longer than was intuitive after the pop 3 increase. I think I moved back to the olives shortly before pop 4. I was also juggling it with the forest chop timing. I didn't do a thorough analysis of the decision to start chopping - it started when the worker came free, and I knew ten shields would help either with the granary or the first settler. The options around Karakorum are really superb for mm, as I said in my log. You can tune it to deliver food at any rate you want with pinpoint precision and with options on shield production as well, so I knew I could manipulate it to use those ten shields, and I did. As it is they will arrive on the first turn of the settler build, after the granary is completed.

I didn't build much military as it became obvious that we have a fair bit of breathing space before the AI starts looking for blood. They seldom attack until they are running out of free space to expand, and there's plenty of that. I figured a barracks was going to help our research program :hammer: more than one or two more regular warriors.

More on Palaces. Here's my understanding of the corruption implications of a Palace move.

It looks like Karakorum is a temporary capital. It doesn't have room for an efficient two-ring core on our own island, and there's lots of space to our north. My guess is we'll build an FP - by hand if we can't find a leader to do it for us - somewhere north of Karakorum. Alternatively we could jump our palace, but I've never been happy about abandoning a city early in the game. We don't need RCP around the FP. The corruption deal is that once we move the palace, cities near the FP get a corruption ranking equal to the number of cities nearer to the Palace than they are. So, for example, if we set up our Palace in Beijing and we have a typical AI OCP ring of 5 cities at RCP distance 5 then all cities closer to the FP than 6 will get zero rank corruption. If there's a second ring of Han cities at radius 9 then all cities between 6 and 9 from our FP will have rank 5 - the number of cities in the Palace's first ring. So placement round a potential FP site looks more like Disc City Placement ("DCP" [tm]), as it is not important to stay *on* a circle, only *within* a circle to achieve a particular rank relative to a Palace with an RCP layout.

Of course, if we take over Han's cities and they are not in an RCP layout, and we don't rearrange them, then it doesn't matter where we put our FP core cities, and they can go wherever the best resources are.

There, I hope I've succeeded in confusing everyone. I did warn you about my mathematical leanings :hmm: Please feel free to comment, up to and including telling me I'm talking rubbish :D

Got it!

@ AlanH - great start!

@ DJM - not offended at all. I have done a 4-turn factory, but will check in if I get confused.

I should be able to play tonight/tomorrow morning, and will probably have some questions before I take the turns. Things a bit crazy on the home front today...

nikof

I haven't studied the map yet regarding city locations. If we are going to hand build FP (saving a GLeader to relocate Palace in Han terrirtory) in our initial core should we plan our rings around our proposed FP city? Here is some wisdom on the FP that akots bestowed on our team in SGOTM2.


RCP around FP, however tight it is, is not influenced by corruption as long as the cities around FP are closer to that FP city versus the cities around Palace. For example, if there is RCP 5 from Palace and RCP 3 from FP, all these cities are rank 1. However, if there is RCP 5 from FP and RCP3 from Palace (6 cities for example0, then RCP5 from FP would be rank 7 for all cities. As a general rule, build around FP should be dense and build around Palace should follow OCP pattern. Therefore, we can build FP somewhere in the original core to gain OCN bonus and then jump Palace with a leader to AI-settled core with OCP.

We built on a RCP3/6/9 in our core and later rushed a new Palace in captured lands that provided a RCP5/8 rings.

... and will probably have some questions before I take the turns
Please do, I'm sure I must have missed some key information in my turn log. There are no stupid questions .. except the ones you don't ask ;) Of course, there's no guarantee you'll get sensible answers :mischief:

Just a quick PS on city planning. Given our current small land area in all direcions except north, I think we need an initial tight cluster of cities. Here's a suggested dot map for a tight layout at 3.x and 5.x that takes reasonable advantage of the available fresh water, avoids building on bonuses, and snags the horses and furs:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Scoutx_B_Dotmap3.jpg

Green dots are radius 3.x, Yellow dots are 4.x, pink are horses/furs.

When we move this core's center north with a Palace move or FP we can thin it out if we like, or leave it as is for a while.

I haven't studied the map yet regarding city locations. If we are going to hand build FP (saving a GLeader to relocate Palace in Han terrirtory) in our initial core should we plan our rings around our proposed FP city? Here is some wisdom on the FP that akots bestowed on our team in SGOTM2. ....

We built on a RCP3/6/9 in our core and later rushed a new Palace in captured lands that provided a RCP5/8 rings.
As I said in my previous dissertation, you don't need RCP around the FP in the sense of ensuring that all cities are on rings. The tight build conclusion is correct, though. If the cities on my dot map were around teh FP, instead of teh palace, then a palace elsewhere with its first ring at RCP 5 would set all the cities in my propsed placement at corruption rank one.

Until we move/create new palace positions we need to have RCP around our current palace, and that's what my dot map seeks to achieve. it uses 3/5 instead of 3/6/9 because of our tight space, but it's otherwise similar to your example. Except if we jump the palace to an AI placement of 5/8, *all* my dots would be at rank 1 relative to a FP in Karakorum (which won't happen). I suspect we could hand build an FP in the north western green dot, near the horses, and continue with a tight pattern north of this city. [EDIT] In that scenario, all my dots would fall within rank 1 relative to a Palace ring of 5, except the two most south easterly ones. Another reason to establish and develop the northern ones before the southern ones.

[edit 2 - sorry :(] The green dot I've suggested for an FP has the disadvantage that it's not on a river. We'd need an aqueduct to grow it. I'll have to think about that, but it may be it's still the best option.

After a night's sleep:
@Grunthex: Yes, huts are a real lottery. It sounds like in your game the Han got a settler. What did you get, BTW?


As I recall, I got nothing where you got the Wheel, maps where you got 25g, and nothing where you got Mysticism. I would NOT have been the tech leader. :)

Off to another 10 hour day on a ball diamond. Knock em dead Nikof!

Request: At the end of your turn log post a quick note as to where you think the next turns should head. Example: next ten should work on setting up the settler pump, watch out for this guy headed towards this city. And make sure this city does not riot.

Side note:
What do you think about naming cities. I am bad because I am a piss poor typist. So Many times if a city name comes up that I know I will have to type a bunch of times and it ends up being 17 letters long with no vowels, I may end up calling it Mistic Villiage or Mistberg or something. Any complaints to this?

Sorry if my ramblings at the end of my log weren't clear, but that was my intention. The Han warrior is mentioned in my last turn description, but the rest is all in the final paragraph.

I prefer to let the software name the cities as it adds something to the atmoshere of the game. If you want names to be easy for you to type you'll have to dictate some rules on what you like typing (max length, letter combinations ????) that we can all follow. Unless we all do it, any name you avoid will keep being offered until someone like me just uses it, and you still may find yourself typing it later.

As a tip, you might try keeping a scratch text document containing frequently used names and phrases, open it up while you are writing your turnlog and copy paste from it.

Maybe a better title (rather than Power is Knowledge) would be Ignorance is Strength? (Just as slavery = freedom)
;)

Thanks, Yom, but I think our title is superbly appropriate. We don't plan on being ignorant. We expect to become very knowlegeable through the use of strength, courage, cunning, astute trading, and large amounts of luck. We've already demontrated the latter two methods. Opportunities for the first three will come soon enough.

Your post was fine Alan. My earlier comment was more for the team in general. Moves can seem strange without a short discription of what your thoughts were. I quite enjoyed your "ramblings". As far as the cities go we can keep them as is but don't be suprised if I slaughter the spellings or start to give them knicknames. I've never played the mongols so I dont know how bad they get. IMO the Aztec are the worst. can you say "Alex I'd like to buy a vowel"

Yes, Aztec names are bad, but you will probably reconsider that when we get to founding Dalandzagdad... :eek: I would even go as far as suggesting that we include as an additional variant rule that we have to name it at least once in each turnlog :p

I totally agree with settling the closer wheat first. Without direct access to the game, I had completely overlooked that KK does not need it. Just imagine, TWO settler factories in the same start... :wow:

The southernmost city, with the wheat and the fish, can probably be a worker factory without requiring irrigation.

Alan's proposal for the FP may indeed be the best option, in spite of requiring an Aqueduct. I'm not too happy about moving the Palace either, but if we don't get an early leader we may be well forced to do that. We'll see, I guess :)

Dot map looks real nice. Definately agree on building northward towards Han first, maybe even trying to grab the two northern yellow dots as cities number 4 & 5 before competing the inner ring (city 3 is the green dot N N from KK).

Okay, finally installed. Bit of a pain-didn't install cleanly on top of my existing GOTM package. Don't know why, but installed fresh from the cd with all updates and it works now.

I shadowed AlanH's game with moderate accuracy. His Wheel hut was deserted for me - glad you were playing, Alan! But I got Masonry from the northern hut, so my luck isn't all bad.

Dot map looks real nice. Definately agree on building northward towards Han first, maybe even trying to grab the two northern yellow dots as cities number 4 & 5 before competing the inner ring (city 3 is the green dot N N from KK).
Fully agree, I might even have been tempted to go for the northern yellow dots before the green by the wheat, but I will follow the advice of wiser heads. I guess we want 2 settler factories sooner because we have a lot of ground to fill. Big island, contact with other civs - sorry for doubting you, mad-bax!

Q1a: I'm very tempted to move the scout E onto the mountain, to get a look at Han territory. Han is polite, so this seems like a risk worth taking. However, I've been burned before by "provoking" other civs early on Emperor. Thoughts?

Q1b: Not sure I see the need to move Warrior2 back home. Han is polite, we have Warrior1, Ta-tu could make a barracks in 5 and warrior in another 2 if need be. I'm tempted to scout him north a bit more.

Q1c: Since I'm scouting near Han - it may be possible to do some mild blocking of Han settler units, just to slow him down a bit. But someone declared war on me in a recent game immediately after I did that. Is it a dire provocation, coincidence, or just not worth the effort?

Q2: Rocks? Okay. :rolleyes: Do they do anything like block ships, or are they just a bonus?

Q3: Is naval movement different than vanilla? I can't keep track of the rule mods.

Comment: I've found the discussion of FP corruption and "disc placement (tm)" very helpful, hadn't quite picked this up from the War Academy. <thinks about how much more productive GOTM32 could have been...>
Thanks!

nikof
P=K!

maybe even trying to grab the two northern yellow dots as cities number 4 & 5 before competing the inner ring (city 3 is the green dot N N from KK).

Agreed on early city order. Those are all high food sites with FP in their radius. If we can road the tile north from Karakorum to city 3 ASAP then settlers will only take 2 turns to reach the next two sites north of there. One road on the tile north of city 3 connects both those nrthern sites, and one more road on the furs brings us a lux.

I might even have been tempted to go for the northern yellow dots before the green by the wheatTwo issues here - food and speed. The green dot gets access to the 4 ftp wheat, soon to be 5 fpt. The yellow dots don't, so they will be at 2 ftp until irrigated. Settlers would take four turns to reach those yellow dots. A settler can reach the green dot in 2, and a worker can then add roads to put the yellow dots only two turns away from Karakorum. If you work out the total food production difference between the two options it's quite significant over the next 15 turns or so. [EDIT] Repeat the mantra: "Food is Power, and Power is Knowledge".

We're not threatened for space by the Han in those next turns, and they have a nearer source of furs and horses, so they are not going to come after ours. Settling the furs earlier won't get them hooked up earlier, in fact it may take longer. So there's no compelling reason to walk a long way to settle.

Q1a: Scouts aren't seen as a threat. I wouldn't worry about it. Priority for the scout (our only one at the moment) is to fill in the map as much as possible so that we have valuable map to trade when Map Making arrives. If the mountain move gets us a lot more visible tiles then go for it.

Q1b: You are probably right. I tend to try to slow the AI down whenever I get the chance, and this was one such opportunity. But I think you're right, there's little point in racing the Han warrior back to base. A single warrior won't go for us, and we will have a road between the two cities in another few turns anyway so our existing warrior can occupy whichever the warrior chooses to approach.

Q1c: Coincidence I should think. Blocking units seems not to be considered provocative. I don't think the AI has that level of intelligence. It just looks at what moves it can make now and makes one. If you block it will just move back again without realising what's happening. I'm not sure you have enough resources to do it, though, and you might end up just delaying our own progress on exploring.

Q2: Rocks are just a bonus. 1 spt, and maybe 1gpt IIRC. Check the Civilopedia. Don't bother with them until we can build a harbour, as it's still only 1 fpt and we have more powerful tiles.

Q3: Dunno. We'll have to check with m-b or Scout. Are you lurking?

Good luck, nikof...

Just as Alan said :hatsoff: -we should chase nearby food-rich locations with the highest priority.

We should also take the fist opportunity to build another couple workers, either in Karakorum or in another city.
If our target for the game is a military victory of some kind, we can start building warriors, archers or horsemen in any city that is not busy with settlers/workers or granaries/barracks.

Good luck from me too ;)

Here we go.

Turn 0, 3000 BC:
AlanH left everything shipshape, no surprise there! We are at +8 gold with 20% lux.
My goals are to set up the settler factor, MM well, and keep exploring.
Mentally toy with MM ideas to get a faster growth or granary in KK, but can't improve on AlanH's plan. :)

IBT - Han Warrior heads west.

Turn 1, 2950
Warrior N.
Scout E to mountain in Han territory. Sees size 2 Beijing, on a river, with 2 furs (one roaded), a Warrior in city, a worker working.
F4 (should do this first...) - no new techs, Han and Korea both have a second city.
F1 - all's well.

IBT - Wu Ti politely disturbed by troop build-up, I apologize and bow as I back out of the room. Han Warrior South towards us, disappears into fog.

Turn 2, 2900
F4 - nothing of interest.
Warrior N.
Scout S, SW to fill in black spot since he may not pass that way again soon. He'll go North, West of Han borders after that, and may meet Warrior1 up North.
Ta-tu Worker completes road. Goes SE to mine for another useful square, after that he may work/road the square SW of KK, while other Worker heads N. Other option was to cross river, irrigate & road towards horses. But rivers slow us down right now, and since we're in REX mode we probably don't need horses for a little while yet. Comments welcome. (later edit - but rivers give gold, too...)
F1 - the land is strong.

Turn 3, 2850
F4 - nada
Warrior N to North coast. Will check NE just to see if there's a land bridge. Time-consuming and not too likely, but it's pretty important info IMHO.
Scout S, SW. Pretty furs abound.
Ta-tu will grow in one. Put governor on "emphasize production". NOTE - also checked that as default for new cities.
F1 - Mongolia, love it or leave it!

Turn 4, 2800
F4 - nada
Scout W, N
Tatu has grown to pop2. Ah, can't finish barracks next turn because 1s lost to corruption. Still, I want it faster and will sacrifice 1food to MM forest this turn only. (Breaks F=P rule).
KK - MM an i-FP to get one slower pop growth while Granary completes, and an extra gold.
F1 - Mongolia 'tis of thee.

IBT - Han warrior reappears N of our wheat square, as expected. Han still polite, not expecting any monkey business.
KK nice full Granary! -> Settler

Turn 5, 2750
F4 nada (I'm gonna keep writing this, because it makes me remember to check!)
Scout NN, Warrior NE - peninsula ends.
Return Ta-tu to 2f.
KK about to grow. MM from wheat to iFP, so get an extra gold and only waste 1f. This city may be a MM dream, but I can't squeeze any more shields from it usefully. Should get 8+10 from chop next turn, so can have 3-turn settler anyway.

IBT- Han respects borders, goes SE. Chop done.

Turn 6, 2710
F4-0
Warr SW, Scout NN to hill.
Ta-tu will have a Warrior in 5 (can hurry if need to), growth in 9.
KK - huh, governor must have not put new citizen on forest, only have 16s in bin. I think I can do Settler in 3, with 4 pop after, or settler in 2, with 3.5 pop after. Taking option B for faster expansion. That means I'm going to speed up the Warrior in TT to 3 turns too, with that Han lurking.
Set worker SW of KK to road, to have defense network, noting that there's a river between KK and next proposed city anyway.
F1-lux 30%, so we're only +7.

IBT-Han Warr W

Turn 7, 2670
F4-0
Warr W, pretty sea-shell. Scout NE, hill.
KK - MM to 6s (no waste), +4f.
TT-leave alone.
F1 okay.

IBT-Han Warr W, KK Settler -> Settler, and new contact!
Baekje is Polite, has 1 gold, 1 city, and is 4 techs behind us.

Turn 8, 2630
F4-0
Warr W, sees new Han borders. Scout N.
Settler N from KK, with Warr escort.
TT - MM to Warr in 1, +2f.
KK - MM to +4f for growth, 4s. Not sure if need to apologize for faster early Settler, but delay in factory.
lux still 30%, because moved Warrior from KK.

Turn 9, 2590
TT - Warr -> Warr
F4-0
Warr in TT to KK along newly completed road for MP. lux to 20%.
In the North, Scout N, NW to hill. Warr NW.
Worker near TT finishes mine, set to road for gold as am now working that square.
KK - return to +5f, only 4s.
Worker to KK.
Settler + Warr N

IBT - Han Warr disappears N.

Turn 10, 2550
F4-0
Kazan founded! Great name! Well, I did something right. Fortify Warr there.
In the North, Warr N (spots Shanghai and a veteran Warr), Scout NE, NE. Terrain mostly tundra now, but will fill in map.
Fortify vet Warr in KK.
Set Kazan to work the wheat for now, since it doesn't really help KK get a faster settler, I think.
Lux remains at 20%.

Finishing thoughts:
Ta-tu is building a Warrior, but may be better off switching to a Worker. I'll leave that decision to the next player. Maybe KK should push out a Worker instead, after the next Settler?
KK has a little way to go yet before becoming an efficient factory, with Kazan using the Wheat. Mining the hills and irrigating the other FP would probably do it, I haven't run the numbers.
Feel free to reverse any of the MM or production decisions!

Sorry for not posting a screenshot, I'm getting pressure to get off the computer and do something useful. If anyone else has time that would be great - but I wanted to get the save posted as soon as I could.

Eagerly awaiting commentary,
nikof

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Temujin,2550BC.SAV

I got it -downloaded in a flash while leaving the office ;)
(btw, remember to zip the saves, this will help prevent our file from getting corrupt during transfers)

I will read the log this evening (CET) and post tomorrow morning. I might even be able to play during the day (yeah, that's a long story...)

---Roster---

- AlanH
- Nikof: Just done
- Karasu: almost playing
- Grunthex: warming up
- DJMGator13
- Mistfit

Go Karasu!

Good stuff, nikof. :thumbsup: I've had a look at the save, made some notes on the log below, and done a couple of screenies. You can click this one to get to the close-up of Mongolia, or right click it to open the other in another window.

@Karasu: During the whole of the SGOTM2 sequence, we had 13 teams, 64 players and 346 non-zipped .sav files exchanged via the SGOTM server. There have been a few problems with players' installations, but none were due to corrupt saves as far as I am aware. I was watching this carefully, as I was aware of the theory that .sav files could get corrupted. If you know of any that were, I'd be interested to hear of them, and perhaps have a look at them. I must say I've always been suspicious of the theory as the upload protocols are pretty well protected, with error checking on every packet and sequence numbering to ensure that packets don't get lost or out of order.

Ta-tu Worker completes road. Goes SE to mine for another useful square, after that he may work/road the square SW of KK, while other Worker heads N. Other option was to cross river, irrigate & road towards horses. But rivers slow us down right now, and since we're in REX mode we probably don't need horses for a little while yet. Comments welcome. (later edit - but rivers give gold, too...)
I think I would have prioritised the development of the settler factory. It can do 5 fpt now, but it needs a shield or two more to get to four turn rate.
Tatu has grown to pop2. Ah, can't finish barracks next turn because 1s lost to corruption. Still, I want it faster and will sacrifice 1food to MM forest this turn only. (Breaks F=P rule).
KK - MM an i-FP to get one slower pop growth while Granary completes, and an extra gold. :goodjob: Completing the barracks one turn early is good.
Set worker SW of KK to road, to have defense network, noting that there's a river between KK and next proposed city anyway.Good point, and you should very rarely leave a tile without roading it first. Leaving it costs a move you'll have to make later to get back and road it. Roading it while you're there may imrove mobility later, and should give us more gold.
new contact!
Baekje is Polite, has 1 gold, 1 city, and is 4 techs behind us.
This is interesting. We should discuss whether we want to gift them some techs to get them to help with research and/or to reduce future tech prices. Do you know how we were contacted?
Settler N from KK, with Warr escort.We've not seen any barbs, and the AI is very unlikely to attack an unescorted settler at this early stage, so I don't usually bother.
Sorry for not posting a screenshot, I'm getting pressure to get off the computer and do something useful. If anyone else has time that would be great - but I wanted to get the save posted as soon as I could.
Here you go. This image is a link to a close-up ....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ScoutX_B_2550.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/ScoutX_B_2550BC_Zoom.jpg)

Thanks AlanH!


This is interesting. We should discuss whether we want to gift them some techs to get them to help with research and/or to reduce future tech prices. Do you know how we were contacted?

One of Baekje's Warriors showed up on the peninsula E of KK, the one touching our border. Went away the next turn. So Korea has some competition, which is probably another good reason to gift Baekje some techs.

I know it's a bit premature but are we thinking 3rd ring at 8 or 9?

Also we may want our FP on this Island it seems to be quite large. Bejing might make a nice spot for it dependant on how much more land there is to the north.

Edit: Korea has 2 workers for sale right now

I know it's a bit premature but are we thinking 3rd ring at 8 or 9?

Also we may want our FP on this Island it seems to be quite large. Bejing might make a nice spot for it dependant on how much more land there is to the north.

Edit: Korea has 2 workers for sale right now
Well spotted :thumbsup:. I wonder if they are at war with Baekje or if it's barbs? :hmm:
We should definitely buy those workers !!

I was about to do this :suicide: in shame and embarrassment - but I don't see the workers! I even downloaded my upload, and don't see them in the F4 screen. :confused:

I was about to do this :suicide: in shame and embarrassment - but I don't see the workers! I even downloaded my upload, and don't see them in the F4 screen. :confused:

Yeah! I took Mistfit's word for it, but I've reloaded 2550 BC and there are no workers for sale here either! Equally :confused:

I was about to do this :suicide: in shame and embarrassment - but I don't see the workers! I even downloaded my upload, and don't see them in the F4 screen. :confused:

Don't think they are actually available. They show up on the Trades tab in MapStat but not in the game. I have noticed this in some of my other games as well. I was going to pose that question/issue over in the MapStat thread.

Here is a look at an RCP8 & 9, with Alan's green & yellow dots included. Looks like only 1 river city either ring. RCP9 puts us closer to the lamb, sheep & a horse but all can be grbbed in a culturally expanded RCP8 city as well.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Jump1B_01.jpg

The next cities after yellow and green will be rank 11 or greater. If we get there in time we could even settle a couple more across the water at RCP 5, making the next ring rank 13 or even 14. I don't know what the OCN for this map is, but I suspect those are all going to be pretty corrupt, so we should probably ignore RCP in that ring and concentrate on finding good locations that will become productive when we build an FP. If we can find a few locations with water that wll be within radius 5 of the proposed FP, then those should be our next sites.

Incidentally, looking at this shot, the southern yellow dot should prolly be one tile SW of its current location to grab more territory.

My 2¢ ;)

Hmm... Dianthus is so rarely wrong.. sorry for the excitement


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/workers_for_sale.jpg

Incidentally, looking at this shot, the southern yellow dot should prolly be one tile SW of its current location to grab more territory.


The yellow dot is currently on a desert tile, while the SW tile is a BG. If we leave it there we get +2f+1s from that desert (which is why you probably selected that tile originally :) ).

Agree on the RCP issue, after 2 rings I usually build in best location because of the corruption.

EDIT: I have posted the Trade tab/worker question in the MapStat thread.

I agree, Dianthus is usually reliable.

No problem, and no harm done, except maybe a short term blip in nikof's heart rate ;). It's all useful information, and you shouldn't hold it back. We now know that we need to cross check important data like that in the game itself.

The yellow dot is currently on a desert tile, while the SW tile is a BG. If we leave it there we get +2f+1s from that desert (which is why you probably selected that tile originally :) )..
Undoubtedly :thumbsup:. It's not so clear in the RCP plot. I need to remind *myself* to consult the game itself before making rash statements :p

Thank you Gator for bringing that up to Dianthus. It may help me from making silly statements like that in the future....but I doubt it.

Note to team: I believe I have just made my last turns in the SGOTM so I will be spending more of my efforts here. Now if I could just figure out a way to never work again, I'd be all set.

Now if I could just figure out a way to never work again, I'd be all set.Hint: Retire. It works for me ;)

Ya know I would but... I enjoy things like eating..driving...buying the latest civ title....minor things like that..so in the forseeable future this joe will be working his arse off 70-80hrs per week hoping to shorten the years left to retirement.

Hmm... Dianthus is so rarely wrong.. sorry for the excitement

That's not true, I'm often wrong, I just don't normally get caught :).

Anyway, there seems to be a situation when workers can't be traded that I didn't know about. You'll find that you also can't trade a worker to Korea at the moment if you had a worker in your capital. I won't tell you why yet since you're pretty early on and it might constitute a spoiler, but I'll see what I can do about fixing CRpMapStat at some point.

You've reminded me that eqWorkers can't be traded on GOTM. It's a deliberate move to stop people crippling the AI early on, and an attempt to emulate the effect of the big increase in worker trade pricing in PtW. Is that what's throwing CRpMapStat off?

You've reminded me that eqWorkers can't be traded on GOTM. It's a deliberate move to stop people crippling the AI early on, and an attempt to emulate the effect of the big increase in worker trade pricing in PtW. Is that what's throwing CRpMapStat off?Unfortunately, no. :( The workers are 'real' workers, not eQ versions @Alan: Delete this if its considered 'spoiler'. Dianthus and I have a common interest in solving this little issue! :D

I do not consider your post a spoiler because I have had it happen in a random C3C epic game (without GOTM mods).

I have a save of that game when the worker shows on MapStat if you want it.

I guess the bottom line for us in this game is that the Koreans probably really do have two workers in their capital currently, and that probably means they are under threat from barbs or another civ. We know the Baekje are on the same land mass as them. So the Baekje could be trying to catch up in techs - they are three down currently, or 'regionally intense' barbs could be swarming all over them both :D

Do your capitals have to be connected by land (or have some sea-faring advances discovered) in order to trade them?

Do your capitals have to be connected by land (or have some sea-faring advances discovered) in order to trade them?

Someone posted in the MapStat thread that you have to have cities on the same landmass to be able to trade/buy workers. It's not dependent on an established trade route. The epic game I mentioned above this was exactly the case. I was in 1210AD and trading luxury items, but I could not buy a worker because I did not have a city on the other landmass.

I'm told this is not the case, and I'm pretty sure I've traded workers across water that was not tradeable over, if you see what I mean. But I wonder if you at least have to know Mapmaking before you can do this :hmm:

I do not consider your post a spoiler because I have had it happen in a random C3C epic game (without GOTM mods).

I have a save of that game when the worker shows on MapStat if you want it.
If you could, then that would be great. :thumbsup:

E-mail to: gotm@civfanatics.net

with detail of who has workers.

Thanks! :)

I don't really know about this, but rest assured that I won't let foreign workers pass unnoticed ;)

I had a few minutes yesterday night to look at the game, and I wanted to check our settler factories.

Karakorum looks ok as soon as we have mined the two bonus hills and a grassland, using 3 irrigated FP as well to reach +5 fpt.
Shields should be ok with the extra ones coming from the forest upon pop growth (if I am correct, it was getting late at night and my brain has tends to stop working without advance warning...).


The situation in Kazan looks a bit more complicated, at least at a first glance.
It seems a bit short of shields, so all I can easily see is a two-turns workers factory at size 5 (with granary): irrigated FP+wheat will give the +5 food per turn we need. Then two pairs of irrigated FP + Forest will bring the spt to a total of 5 (1 comes from the city centre).

I could not find a way to turn it into a fast settler factory as it is -what I saw, on the other hand, is that if we moved Kazan 1 tile West, it would have access to:
Irrigated Wheat on FP: +3 fpt, 0 spt
Irrigated Sheep on Plains: +2 fpt, 2 spt
Forest: -1 fpt, 2 spt
At size 4, add an irrigated plains for +5 fpt, 6 spt
At size 5, add another one for +5 fpt, 7 spt
At size 6, add yet another one for +5 fpt, 8 spt (would neet at least a forest chop).

So another 4-turns settler factory seems feasible in this case, either between pop 4 and pop 6 (with a similar mechanism to the previous case) or between 5 and 7.
I am not sure this is correct either: anyone cares to cross-check?

That seems correct to me Karasu but we would need a cultural expoansion to reach the FP wheat and we'd be taking the city off a river so IMO I say leave it where it is for the worker pump. My Idea was that we can do much of our expansion the old fashion way...we'll take it fom someone else.

That seems correct to me Karasu but we would need a cultural expoansion to reach the FP wheat

Nah... just stick another city near it and join up the borders.

Oops... You guys are doing great. I might have to recall the game and make it a bit harder. ;) On second thoughts.... maybe not :evil:

Good point MB. I need more coffee. Still do we need to be disbanding one of our cities this quickly in the game? This is somthing I've never been comfortable with in my personal games but I will bow to the will of more experianced players on this one.

Well, I actually don't know. Doubting of my own mental capabilities, I was looking for the comfort of someone else's checking the situation first...

If the opportunity for a second settler factory is there, we indeed have to discuss whether we really want it or not. The main points we have to understand are, in my opinion:
- is it worth moving an existing city?
- won't we have too few workers?
- how long will it take to have both factories up and running? (vs. what can we do in the meantime)

Hi Karasu,

I'm not sure the new city would be a 4-turn factory. Sheep are +2/+1, on top of Plains that's 3/2, Irrigated 4/2, -1 for Despotism is 3/2, I think. So only +1f.

And I think from working Ta-tu that we'd lose a shield to corruption [edit - the 6th shield is lost]. The new city also wouldn't be on a river.

So I'd lean towards leaving Kazan on the spot where I carefully placed it, following strong suggestions from the Jumpmasters... :mischief:

If we disband a city, don't we lose the settler who created it? So effectively losing 2pop and 30 shields?

Why abandon anything? :confused: We have one fast settler factory, and that's fine. We can use Kazan for workers, or to pop rush stuff or whatever. Two settler factories were not my original intention when I produced the dot map, I just wanted to maximise the use of our food resources - repeat the mantra ;)

In fact, I am not too keen on abandoning cities either -I only made a few Palace jumps in my life ;) and always because no better solution seemed viable.

My personal and very humble opinion is that a settler and a worker factory provide a very nice combination for a fast yet balanced expansion.

Of course, the uncommon perspective of such an opulence as *two* settler factories is quite attractive, and my doubt was whether this is a case in which we can say "we would have too many settlers...".

In the present situation, I would in any case let KK complete its settler and get a worker or two from Kazan.
I will also move the settler to complete the first semi-ring north of our capital, but I am not that KK too cannot build a worker after its settler.


P.S.: I havent' brought my laptop at work today, so I won't be able to play until this evening... :mischief: BTW, I am very tempted to retire too. If only...

Sorry for not jumping in for a bit. Mondays are crazy for me - weekends are worse.

I think we don't want to waste the time and effort to move Kazan now... one 4-turn factory should be fine, and Kazan can provide all the workers we need to make the towns powerhouses. This leaves all the other towns able to build pointy-stick scientists, taking advantage of our cheap science labs (barracks).

The only other short-term priority I can see is getting the furs hooked up -- did we ever find any other resource on the island? I'm at work and can't check it.

Just some early advance warning, shouldn't affect us this week. I'll be out of town (and out of touch!) for the next two weekends. I leave Friday right from work this week, be back late Sunday. I should have no trouble at all playing my turns after Karasu this week (that is where I'm up?). But thought you all needed to know.

No problem, Grunthex.
In any case, be ready: the unescapable laws of SGs will make it so that you will be up right when you are not able to play... especially now that you have given advance notice ;)

we'll find a way around it anyway. And I agree. Mondays are crazy. Tuesdays sometimes are even worse...

The situation in Kazan looks a bit more complicated, at least at a first glance.
It seems a bit short of shields, so all I can easily see is a two-turns workers factory at size 5 (with granary): irrigated FP+wheat will give the +5 food per turn we need. Then two pairs of irrigated FP + Forest will bring the spt to a total of 5 (1 comes from the city centre).

Agree, I played with the numbers and do not see the shields there for settler factory. But it can be a nice 2 turn worker factory at size 5 with granary (working center tile 2f/1s, wheat +4f/0s, 2iFP +6f/+0s, iPlain +2f/+1s, forest +1f+2s gives us 15f and 4s at size 5 working the mined hill on growth gives the extra 2 shields needed for worker every 2 turns).


I could not find a way to turn it into a fast settler factory as it is -what I saw, on the other hand, is that if we moved Kazan 1 tile West, it would have access to:
Irrigated Wheat on FP: +3 fpt, 0 spt
Irrigated Sheep on Plains: +2 fpt, 2 spt
Forest: -1 fpt, 2 spt
At size 4, add an irrigated plains for +5 fpt, 6 spt
At size 5, add another one for +5 fpt, 7 spt
At size 6, add yet another one for +5 fpt, 8 spt (would neet at least a forest chop).

So another 4-turns settler factory seems feasible in this case, either between pop 4 and pop 6 (with a similar mechanism to the previous case) or between 5 and 7.
I am not sure this is correct either: anyone cares to cross-check?

I think 1 west still leaves us short shields for a 4 turn factory, can do a 5 turn factory though. Also need to make sure we do it over the 4-6 growth. The 5-7 won't work because 1 West is not on a river and the city must be able to grow to size 7.

Here I come. Just a quick post before entering a silly pointless progress meeting... :ack:


Pre-turn: 2550 BC
Everything looks fine. I only change Kazan from Nomad Warrior to Worker

Turn 1 - 2100 BC
Warrior 1W
Scout 2E
Worker road

We can get pop growth and settler in KK both in two turns by borrowing the wheat from Kazan and working the second forest instead of the olives
Need to set luxury to 30% to make our people in KK happy.

No news on the diplomatic front.

IT
Chinese found Canton south-west of Beijing

Turn 2 - 2470 BC
Worker on Sheep
Warrior on hill (1NW)
Scout 2NE

IT
Ta-Tu: Nomad Warrior - Worker
Karakorum: Settler - Settler

Turn 3 - 2430 BC
Luxury back to 10%

Warrior 1SW on mountain, slowly going back home
Scout 1NE1N on another hill.
Settler sent to FP city site

IT
Nothing

Turn 4 - 2390 BC
Scout 1E1SE
Warrior 1SW
Worker completes road to Kazan. Goes to help the other one (we already have an irrigated FP available to both cities).

Ta-Tu would grow in 2 turns and build worker in 3; with one turn spent working the forest this can be made 2 and 2 turns (how neat... ;) ).

IT
Nuffin'

Turn 5 - 2350 BC
Settler reaches position
Warrior 1S
Scout 1E1SE

Surprisingly remember to restore production in Ta-Tu to have growth and worker next turn.

IT
Ta-Tu: worker - nomad warrior

Turn 6 - 2310 BC
Almarikh founded: Barracks (vetoable)
Kazan works both hills to get the worker next turn
Karakorum works the forest instead of the FP (only 1 food needed for growth next turn).

Scout: 1S1E on a hill. Looks like there is no passage to the other landmass, and I haven't found any huts...
Warrior 1SW
Worker goes from Ta-Tu to Sheep

Korea knows Iron Working, and will sell it for Mysticism and 149 gold. Let me wait one turn...

IT
Kazan: Worker - Granary (vetoable)
Karakorum back to working Flood Plains to get growth and settler in 3.

Turn 7 - 2270 BC
Scout 1SE. Coast
Warrior 1S
Worker from Kazan to build road to Almarikh.
The other three workers are mining the hill

Korea still wants Mysticism + 149 gold for IW, meaning they are probably not researching Mysticism. Let's wait a little bit to see if the Han discover it too...

Luxury to 20%

IT

Turn 8 - 2230 BC
Warrior 1S
Scout 1S1SE


IT
Ta-Tu: nomad warrior - warrior

Turn 9 - 2190 BC
Scout 1W1S
Warrior still marching south

IT
Karakorum: Settler - Settler

Turn 10 - 2150 BC
Move warrior and scout, leave settler there waiting.

Notes
The Iron Working deal is still there, I waited a bit hoping the Han would do something useful and discover a new tech, but nothing happened. We can decide to buy it or keep on waiting.

I left the settler unmoved in Karakorum, so that we are still free to send it either towards the Horses or the Furs.
Right now, I would favour the furs as settling there would allow Kazan to use those forests and get some shields, even though the furs will only be connected later.

Ta-Tu should probably build another worker after this warrior, and we may get yet another one from either Almarikh or Karakorum to complete the second group of three.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Core-ScoutX.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/World-ScoutX.jpg

Here is the save -I didn't zip it, trusting Alan's judgement ;) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Temujin_of_the_Mongols,_2150_BC.SAV)

Not quite a got it -- savegames are sort of useless at work. :)

Before I do got it, here are my opening thoughts.

I think I will be moving the settler to the furs -- horses will be nice, (almost essential for us later), but no one is going to steal them in a few turns, and the furs will have immediate benefits. Which brings me to the question I don't think we settled.

What RCP distance do we want the second ring at? 6-6.5 gets us a coastal spot between the fish and the furs. 7 would get us a coastal with a river -- but I didn't think we wanted to go that far. 6 also gets us the coastal river site due north of the horses. We need to agree on a distance before I start dropping cities. For what it's worth, my feeling is 6. If we wanted the rivers for the fur site, we could put the city in the elbow, and accept one overlapping non-expanded tile with Kazan (you have no idea how much it hurts me to say that!)

On the technology front, my feeling is to hold off pulling the trigger on Iron Working -- either someone else we know will learn it, driving down the price, or someone might learn something else, letting us buy two separate techs with Myst. Danger of course is that Korea learns Myst from someone, leaving us with nothing to trade.

I was worrying about where Kazan would get the production to complete the granary before the middle ages .. but if Fur City goes in my proposed 6.5 site, he'd have a spare forest to jack it up a bit -- though that would dent the power=food mantra. (I was presuming the new city would get the fur/forest)

Should get some work down. Thoughts?

Looks like the Law of SGs will be affecting me this weekend. I have a friend's wedding to go to in North Carolina, I'll be gone Friday thru late Sunday. I could play Monday AM also. We may need to swap my slot with either Misfit or AlanH (AlanH to keep us alternating gold & silver). I could play Thursday, if Grunthex was done, but would rather have Grunthex take his time and not feel rushed. More important to play well not fast.

Now to the game: Looks like the only luxury on our landmass is the furs. Hans should be able to grab that group of 3 furs with their next city. This game is looking like a definate war situation against the Hans for us to have anything to trade later for techs. We have plenty of horses and furs if we can control the whole island.

For the next city location should we try to grab the lamb & sheep near our western most warrior? We could send our current settler on a long journey to build on the river hill 1 tile NE of the warrior's current location. But since the lamb & sheep are bonus (not lux) resources is it worth a long trip?

Ta-Tu could also build a settler after the current warrior, then set to a worker. Kazan could also be changed to a worker prior to the granary. We do want a granary there but with only 1 shield there it will take a long time to build.

EDIT: Crossed with Grunthex's post

@Grunthex - Alan's dot map for 2nd ring was done at RCP5 and has 4 of 5 cities on rivers (meaning no aqueducts required to grow past size 6). I think Alan's sites are very good locations.

RCP5 ... :cry: This is like selling my soul! Ok... I can do it.

Ok, then my revised thoughts are to settle the coastal square SE of the furs first, then the horse site second. If I get a third settler, he'll be moving towards the spot 2 NW of Almarich, but I won't get time to settle it, so we can discuss going out in that direction the RCP9 spot near the lambs.

I'll definitely fill out at least our second triad of workers, other than that my plans are fuzzy.

Gator, you may well receive it by Thursday -- Wednesday is the calmest night of my week, and getting 10 early-game turns in should be easy. I won't make promises though, as I'd rather do them right and log them well.

RCP5 ... This is like selling my soul! Ok... I can do it.
:lol: You were warned ;)

What DJMGator said. Plus ...

The furthest south we can put a city on our landmass is at distance 5, and I don't think we want to pass up that wheat. If you go to RCP 6 in the north then the southern city will push them all out by one more corruption ranking point.

Go Grunthex :thumbsup:

Sorry for the delay, progress meetings sometimes are a nightmare and never want to end...


---Beaurocracy---

- AlanH
- Nikof
- Karasu: still off to a silly meeting, but the day is passing and the turns are done
- Grunthex: UP! :yeah:
- DJMGator13: getting ready
- Mistfit

We also have a refugee from roster C who won't be able to play C3C. If there are no objections, I'd put him in the roster two or three rounds from now.

If that's the new iBook man, welcome, and please let me know if there's anything I can do to help you get your Civ installation up and running for this game :wavey:

Ok great news...According to map stat we only have 2530 tiles left to get before domination

Settling Ideas still sound fine. 5 ring good.

A couple of questions:

I've not played GOTM mod before:

Han = China
Bajekje = ?

@Mistfit:

:nono: As I mentioned before, I, and the GOTM rules, consider using Mapstat to be cheating before you've got the full map. That's true of any tools that give you information you cannot find in the screens of the game itself.

Baekje is ... Baekje. We'll find out ;)

I appoligize I must have missed that one.

No objection to the iBook refuge, as long as he does fewer product placements than your average movie/TV show! ;)

Hey! Never mind the market share, just enjoy the style points!

@AlanH - Congrats on your SGOTM. It looks as if you beat us out for the variant by 60 years or so. I look forward to lurking your thread to see how different your strats were to ours.

Edit: I'm really interested to see how peanut pulled it off in the 1400's also

Well done you, too. Liked your ploy to get the UNbuilt near to home :thumbsup:

Due to unfortunate early misfortunes - they did volunteer for extinction and we could hardly refuse such lovely ladies - none of our neighbours lived to see the Industrial, let alone the Modern era. So Asia became the future home of the UN, and we made various efforts to get them to pre-build it. But Peanut beat us by more turns than our lead over you. I summarised it in the second spoiler, or you can read the gory detail in our thread. Look out for the self-nomination for the spammers award, and you'll recognise from my excessive posting here why we went for it :mischief:

I think we may carry away the wooden spoon. Only a couple of teams left. We went the whole game up to the modern age without going to war. And then only to wipe out Russia in 2 turns ater she built the U.N. - I know this is spam...sorry

Ok, consider this my official Got It. Playing now.

Alright, without further ado:

Pre-Turn

Diplo Check:
Korea is up Iron Working, down Mysticism, as indicated, and has 1 city.
Han is down Mysticism, has 2 cities.
Baekje is down 4 techs including Myst, and has only 1 city and a piece of gold.

I am able to turn Luxury down to 10%, saving 2 gpt. 1/1/1 citizens in KK.

Switch Kazan to a worker, due in 7 rather than a granary in 57. It is +4fpt with growth due in 2.
Settler that Karasu left heads north, heading for the planned site NE,NE of Kazan.

Turn 1 (2110 BC)

No diplomatic changes
Settler continues N, NE towards site.
Worker finishes road to Almarikh, chases Settler with plans to link up and add furs.
Warrior in Almarikh wanders over to KK, heading for the far southern point just to look across.
Western warrior goes S.
Scout goes NW, N
Drop lux to 0 for one turn gaining 2 more gpt.

IBT: Scout sees barbarian across straits on Korea's island.
China founds Nanking directly towards us from Beijing. I'm starting to think about Gator's decision to grab the sheep and lambs at an RCP9 site BEFORE going for the horses. I'll have time to think about it.

Turn 2 (2070 BC)

Scout goes W, W. Chinese have more furs up here.
Western Warrior goes NW, planning to reveal more coastal tiles for map trading purposes.
Northern w