I have been playing civ for some time now, and although I can comfortably win at Chieftan / Warlord, I struggle at Regent / Monarch.

When I discovered this site I found reading the succession game forum extremely useful in improving my game but despite being helped by lot of the tactics used by LKendter, Ted Jackson, Greebley, Aggie and others ( I am in awe of all of you !!) I can't seem to win consistently at Monarch.

I tend to be more of a builder than a warmonger. I have got a bit better at micro management and trading recently but my battle tactics still leave a lot to be desired.

I therefore thought it might be time to play in my first succession game.

Are there are any others out there who are at the same level as me who would be interested in playing a game at Monarch level, and are there any experts who would be willing to offer their advice / opinions once we get going ?

I normally play Wet / Warm / 5m years and random everything else but I am welcome to suggestions of a map that would help me improve my warmongering skills if this gets off the ground.


level - Monarch
civ - Hittites
land mass - pangaea
climate - Wet / Warm / 5m
world size - large
barbs - random

Players -

Admiral Kutzov
mtgfreak
Sir Clive
Bede
Viper275
MSTK

Reserves

Chester02
Chunky Kong

We will start when we have 5 players
but am happy to play with 6 if anyone else wants to join later

I'm in if you can find a few more players. I usually play at regent level. I normally play standard size maps (arid, warm, 5M years), continents. I like to think my military skills are above average, but I need help with trading/building. I've done well with Mongols and Romans playing a warmonger style.

I'm in if you can find a few more players. I usually play at regent level. I normally play standard size maps (arid, warm, 5M years), continents. I like to think my military skills are above average, but I need help with trading/building. I've done well with Mongols and Romans playing a warmonger style.


Nice to have you aboard Admiral (assuming we get this game off the ground) Now just waiting for another 2/3 players .....

i would play this, although im a solid monarch player

im best at warmongering

If you want to play mtgfreak you would be welcome. I am looking for a few experienced players to teach me (and others hopefully) the art of warmongering.
So if you wouldn't be too bored at Monarch level it would be great to have you in !

@admiral kutzov & mtgfreak - Any suggestions for civ or map or should I just go with random on both and see what turns up ?

it really depends on what you are going for
if you want to become a warmonger, choose pangea or maybe contenients, cause fighting an overseas war is seriously hard
have the map size no bigger than large, and ill let you choose the civ

it really depends on what you are going for
if you want to become a warmonger, choose pangea or maybe contenients, cause fighting an overseas war is seriously hard
have the map size no bigger than large, and ill let you choose the civ
OK - I'm up for that . I don't neccesarily WANT to be a warmonger, I just want to be able to fight battles better when they come around :( I think I will leave the civ as random unless anyone has any objections) . Will go for a stanndard size map + pangaea. Startup thread has been updated with these details.

/delurk

If you want a civ that is strong in both early warfare and building, have a look at the Iroquois. A fabulous early UU, agricultural for a powerful start and commercial for powerful when expanded.

Good idea starting this game, as there are (as always) far too many deity+ games here it seems. Not signing up, but will be lurking and try to come with some tips :)

/delurk

If you want a civ that is strong in both early warfare and building, have a look at the Iroquois. A fabulous early UU, agricultural for a powerful start and commercial for powerful when expanded.

Good idea starting this game, as there are (as always) far too many deity+ games here it seems. Not signing up, but will be lurking and try to come with some tips :)


Thanks Tarkeel - have noticed some of your posts on this board in the past and it will be good to have your input once we get started .

Iroquois sounds like a good suggestion - we will have a vote on the civ once we have the 5 players required.

I'm still undecided whether to go for standard or large size map.

Would appreciate the opportunity to join your crew.

Pretty good at trading and city management, not so good at urban planning and warmongering.

Greeks are an excellent choice for Panagea maps.

/Delurk:
While I definetely agree with the Iroquois and Dutch being the strongest and best Civs to step up one or more levels, I'd suggest something completely different:

You want as much input from lurkers as possible. I don't think many veterans will join you, since a Monarch level game is somewhat boring for Deity level players (no offense, we all started at Regent!), so lurkers will help you along.
However, to attract them, you should pick one of those Civs that aren't nearly always choosen for SGs (some of them are picked for no particular reason, but over and over again - Korea :confused: ). That especially means no Ottomans, Vikings, Persia, Germany, Iroquois, Korea, Dutch.
So what about 2 Civs that are pretty rarely played in SGs, Hittites orIndia?
Hittites are a c3c Civ anyway, and India's UU got a serious boost.

Just my 5c :)
/delurk

Doc, I think the reason Korea gets picked is the reason you just stated: Nobody would play them on their own :lol:

i do, but probably for the extra challenge :lol:

india would probly be my choice

I'll try this. I win about 90% of the time on Regent and 25-50% on Monarch. I don't know which civ to use, although it sounds good to use a civ that isn't used often and that most people don't have a lot of experience with.

OK Bede and Viper - you are both in !.

Now all we have to decide is the civ and the map size.

We have 5 players now so if you could all (admiral kutzov, mtgfreak, Bede, viper275 ) confirm your preferred civ + map size and I will generate a start based on the majority.

Admira and Bede are in the US, I am in UK , don't know where mtgfreak and viper are , but if there are any other europeans might make sense if we group together.

For the moment I will suggest the following order

Admiral Kutzov
Mtgfreak
Sir Clive
Bede
Viper275

20 turns for the first player then 10 turns each. If Admiral doesn't particularly want to start off or someone else does please let me know and I will change the order.

A couple of people have suggested India - I would be quite happy to go along with this as I don't think I have ever played India before.

Do we want standard map or large - I can't make up my mind !

Can I join in? I am looking for a "training" succession game.

Though I am still in my first regent game :(
But I've read most of the War Academy articles and I know about micromanagement and all the like. I usually know how to get the most production, wealth, or growth at a city, and I usually know which city needs what.

I don't build wonders much, because I think that one article got me unhooked.

But my war tactics need refining - But i'm a peaceful builder, and I expand a bit too fast.

So...can I join?

(large map?)

Personally prefer standard map.

Per DocT's suggestion India or Hittites would make a good choice. Of the two, I like Hittites.

Personally prefer standard map.

Per DocT's suggestion India or Hittites would make a good choice. Of the two, I like Hittites.

I wouldn't mind Hittites although I just played them in COTM 01 so that is why I was inclined to go with India.

MSTK - you are our 6th and final player - welcome !

Irrespective of who has replied , I will post a start before midnight UK time tomorrow.

I have somewhat naively assumed that we are all playing Conquests v1.22 - is that OK with everyone ?

Rules - I not too bothered about strict time constraints but it would be nice if we could try to keep to the succession games standard which appears to be a 24 hr 'got it' and a 48hr-72 hr play. Since this game is (hopefully) going to help us all move onwards and upwards from Regent / Monarch it would obviously be nice for us to all have a bit of discussion before each set of turns.

I'm not too great on deciding what are exploits and what is legit so I propose we go with LKEndter's rules which seem to be sensible and well respected - i.e

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
following tactics are PROHIBITED:

RoP Rape - if you have to ask...

RoP Abuse that includes things such as irrigating all tiles with a city building wonders, denying resources with a RoP, putting a unit to block a land bridge, etc.

Scout resource denial - parking a scout on a resource, as the AI won't ask scouts to leave. The same scenario also applies to workers.

False Peace Treaties (must wait for the 20 years to end).

The negative science exploit - you can run a huge deficit (-250 / turn) of negative cash with a token penalty of one lost worker / cheap building. If cash will go below zero, the research level must be dropped.

Ship chaining exploit - you can move a ship, unload troops to another ship, move that ship, etc. This allows you to ship an indefinite distance, and that is why I consider it an exploit.

Resources disconnect / connect exploit - I consider most resource tactics fine. Delaying to hook a resource, trading it away etc is fine. The exploit is to do this every turn. Build a stack of horses, connect saltpeter, upgrade to cavalry, and disconnect.

Palace Jump - You abandon the capital city to move the palace to a new location. If you want to move the palace, build a new palace.


Standard LK house rules:
1) Worker automation of any kind is prohibited.
2) No worker purchases during the first 50 turns to avoid civ crippling.
3) Declaring war / demanding leave solely for the purpose of getting out of trade deals. This includes nonsense spying simply to force a war. Stealing techs is fine.
4) Even if not covered under exploits listed, please try not to use tactics that take advantage of holes in the game design.
5) Our trading reputation is golden - please respect it.
6) Complete your turn. It is frustrating to get a 1/2 completed turn.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks LK !

THE HITTIE EMPIRE

The Hittie Empire was founded by Sir Clive the Great with Hattusas at 4000 BC, but left to Despot line of M. T. G. to rule over.
At 3250 BC, the empire of Japan was found to be a neighbor.
Later, the First Dynasty was overthrown, and the descendants of Sir Clive reigned, believing it their destiny. Under their rule, barbarians joined their tribes by offering warriors and even cities. In 2750, the civilization of India was found.

Sounds great, I'm in the western USA, meaning an 8 hour time difference from Clive, so the times here could get confusing. To confirm, I am playing with C3C 1.22 patch.

I like the idea of India or Hittites. Since I didn't play COTM 01 I don't mind the Hittites (never played as them), but India is okay too, my preference being the Hittites. I'm thinking Standard map, but large is fine too. For rules, you could use the GOTM regulations (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3cheats.shtml) (the current rules were fine, I'm just giving an idea.) So I vote Standard, Hittites.

As far as my skills go, I tend to be a warmonger and need work on peaceful tactics. I am all for discussion before turns, it gives everyone a time to give suggestions to the current player.

My 100th post :king: :goodjob:

i live in the US

I live in California.

Would appreciate the opportunity to join your crew.

Pretty good at trading and city management, not so good at urban planning and warmongering.


Ahhh, the humble monk strikes again!!

I think I'll lurk a bit on this one and see where it goes....

OK - it looks as if the general consensus is for the following -

Level - Monarch
Civ - Hittites - Expansionist and commercial , start with pottery and alphabet - UU Three man chariot instead of chariot
World size - Large
Map - Pangaea, warm , wet , 5 million
AI Aggresion - normal
Barbs - random
All victory conditions except Wonder enabled , everything else (culturally linked / respawn AI ) switched off.

I normally just go with what I get given unless it is absolutely terrible so I will generate a map and we will start with the first one I get ( unless we are stuck in the middle of a desert :( )

(BTW - I currently get my broadband through my cable TV. I am switching from cable to satellite on Sunday 25th so I may be without broadband for 2 or 3 days round about that time . I should still be able to read this thread from work , but may be unable to post very much until I get a new ISP sorted out)

Here's the start - Not too bad - we are on a river, we have a wheat and there are a few hills around. Not sure whether that is river or sea over to the east. No bonus gold or luxuries in view unfortunately :(

Save game file (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Clive1_Hittites_4000_BC.sav)

Screen shot of starting position (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/clive1.jpg)


Hmm - I can't see why these links aren't working. The files are in the uploads7 folder . Can anyone help me out here ?

Also , how do I post a screenie directly into th thread rather than via a link ?

Thanks

use [ img]http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/clive1.JPG[ /img] to show it as image. Note that you used caps for JPG.

The easiest way is to simply right click on the file once it is uploaded, then click the little icon that looks like mountains in the "post reply" screen. When the box pops up, just paste in the filename and it will add the IMG tags for you.

HTH



http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/clive1.JPG

EDIT: It would seem that you inserted the screenshot as a link, rather than an image. :)

EDIT: Nice starting loc...we could use that Bonus Resource. And with the few grasslands we might get a decent Settler Factory.

EDIT AGAIN: Whos turn is it?

/delurk

Nice looking start! Just a quick post so I can follow this one. Good luck! :thumbsup:

/relurk

Again, I ask, "Who's turn is it?"

And, scoutsout, what you did is a "tag".


This topic seems nice. Tag.


That is the way of the LUE :D

I decide to go in the order in which people registered with me in the middle - ie

Admiral Kutzov
mtgfreak
Sir Clive
Bede
Viper275
MSTK

Although I don't mind swapping round if someone particularly wants to go first.

I suggest 20 turns for the first player and then 10 turns each.

However I guess we should have a quick discussion about the opening strategy.

I guess 1 tile NE or 1 tile SE look best - send the scout E to have a look , or worker E and scout to the hills to the north to see a few more tiles ?
I presume we want to settle on the river so we don't have to build an aqueduct. Not sure whether that is coast to the east of the wheat ?

What to research ? If I am expansionist I normally go for writing first but I don't often play pangaea so I don't know whether that would be the right move here. I have normally tended at regent / monarch to set research as high as possible at the start of the game but switch it down and trade for techs once I have met a few of the other civs. All opponent civs are random so we don't yet know how many other scientific civs there are. I normally wait until we get the 3000BC list to find out who the other civs are rather than looking at the spaceship screen - I'm not sure whether that is seen as an exploit or not.

Remeber that as expansionist we cannot get barbs from huts so they are safe to pop !

Victory condition - I'd like to go for conquest / domination since I'm quite keen to improve my warmongering but I guess we need to wait and see how the early stages pan out before we decide what to go for. As long as we win I don't really mind how we do it :)

I think I'd go with settling where we are, but we might want to send the scout norteast first. There is a coastal tile there (you can see it under the fog), and it is either a lake or a coast.

If it's a coast, then we can have a coastal and river base in one move, and still keep the wheat.

As for research, I'm not too sure myself. Writing sounds like a good choice, but we may want to go for the Great Library, because it's a Pangea with Expansionist and we will get the most of it.

Unless we want the Free Tech, which we will have to go for Philosophy...

I'd love a conquest/domination victory. If that's what we want, we could try to get our unique unit soon (1 tech away!) and conquer whoever we meet early.

That's a nice-looking starting location there. Irrigating those plains will help us out, as well as the wheat. We're on a river (yay!) and there are forests next to us that give shields, and grassland for food. From fog-gazing, it looks like there's a coast square to the east, a few forest squares to the south, some hills/mountains to the north, and a little assortment of grassland, desert, and plains squares to the west. Since this is pangaea, I doubt that the coastal square will be an ocean, but it's a possibility.

So for first moves, the place that the settler is at right now looks good, I suggest building the city before doing anything else unless there's something wrong with the starting location (which I don't think there is, but that's just my opinion) and it'll show some tiles surrounding, then decide from there. We could move the settler east to get a coastal city, but I think it's a small lake (and even if it was a large body of water, the ocean won't help too much on pangaea unless we decide to immediately built curraghs and explore that way, and we'd know the shape of the entire landmass and a few neighbors pretty early in the game, but I think that sending an army of scouts would let us explore faster.) Assuming that we don't move, the worker could irrigate the plains, and I'm thinking that the scout could go west because going north or south would slow us down (however, I do see a few squares that might be grassland to the south, and what looks like a plains square if you move north, then northwest) and we're slightly to the east so we could probably explore that way more (or it could move once east for a few turns to see what that water is, then go on whatever will let us explore fastest.)

EDIT: For what to build, I'm thinking a scout then a warrior to protect the capital(or if we're on the coast a curragh first, one of those in 3500 BC could give is an edge, especially if we got a scout into it, sailed far, far away, and dropped off the scout there.) From there we'd need to work on the building of a great settler factory (which looks like the capital to me.)

My $0.02

If it's a coast, then we can have a coastal and river base in one move, and still keep the wheat.

As for research, I'm not too sure myself. Writing sounds like a good choice, but we may want to go for the Great Library, because it's a Pangea with Expansionist and we will get the most of it.

Unless we want the Free Tech, which we will have to go for Philosophy...

I normally go for Great Library and normally manage to get there. However this will be the equal highest level I have played at and since we aren't scientific I guess someone else might get there first.

So for first moves, the place that the settler is at right now looks good, I suggest building the city before doing anything else unless there's something wrong with the starting location (which I don't think there is, but that's just my opinion) and it'll show some tiles surrounding, then decide from there. We could move the settler east to get a coastal city, but I think it's a small lake (and even if it was a large body of water, the ocean won't help too much on pangaea unless we decide to immediately built curraghs and explore that way, and we'd know the shape of the entire landmass and a few neighbors pretty early in the game, but I think that sending an army of scouts would let us explore faster.)

I think that if we move the scout towards the coast first, we will see what is there. Then, we can choose weather we settle or not.

I think it's better than using your town to see everything, when it's already too late to change the location.

Viper, Curraghs don't have transport capacity.

I think that if we move the scout towards the coast first, we will see what is there. Then, we can choose weather we settle or not.

I think it's better than using your town to see everything, when it's already too late to change the location.
Good point, especially if we planned to explore there first.

On the GL, although you're chances of getting it are lower than on Regent, they're not significantly lower and we could probably get it, especially if we pre-build it (maybe in our second city) and get Literature as one of our early techs, then keep the AI away from it. We should still have a plan though, because it's definitely possible for the AI to get it. If that did happen, we could probably get techs from our wars in exchange for peace, then trade and sell those techs and we would have caught up then.

EDIT: Oh, yeah... I forgot (only owned and played conquests for a few days.) The transportation strategy still could work with galleys, which we'll be getting soon if we research Writing as one of our first techs.

I'd love a conquest/domination victory. If that's what we want, we could try to get our unique unit soon (1 tech away!) and conquer whoever we meet early.



Good point - I guess it would be sensible to research the Wheel so that we can build the three man chariot ASAP , although I suppose we should be able to trade for it if we meet the other civs soon enough. Seeing as it is a large map there must surely be another civ out there who has it as a starting tech. Just have to hope we are lucky !

mtgfreak is online, but Kutzov is not. But if mtg hasn't posted here yet, he probably isn't watching.

Bede adds his tuppence worth:

Move the scout west first just to check out the neighborhood, and move the worker to the wheat. If the scout shows something intersting you could consoder moving the settler, but whatever you do, don't move so that the wheat is not immediately accessible.. Irrigate, then road the wheat, the irrigate the plains tiles along the river. As there are no bonus grass available we are going to have to depend on the forests for our two shield production for a while.

First build in the capitol should be a scout, then maybe another one, and a fourth, depending on what the two scouts uncover, after that I would need to see how the terrain develops, whether to build a granary or a settler, or a warrior. Scouts should be boxing the compass just as fast as their little legs can carry them. Exploration pattern should be due east/west or due north/south as that uncovers the most area.


Research at max to writing, the wheel is a cheap tech, writing is far more valuable, and will net more in the long run, then you can choose where to go from there, whether a max run at Philosophy...A lot depends on the trading opportunities.

IIRC, even with the expansionist trait, once you train the first unit with attack/defense >1, you run the risk of popping barbarians from goody huts, though it is less for an expansionist nation. So long as the neighbors are not in our face I would delay building any military.

Brief note on trading strategies: the optimum strategy requires two counterparties, not just one. So, instead of making a trade immediately on encountering another nation wait for the scouts in the other quadrants to report in.

mtgfreak is online, but Kutzov is not. But if mtg hasn't posted here yet, he probably isn't watching.

OK - I'll PM mtgfreak and see if he can issue a 'Got it' in the next 24hrs . If not , we'll move on

Roster -


Admiral Kutzov - waiting for 'got it' - first 20 turns
mtgfreak - on deck - next 10 turns
Sir Clive
Bede
Viper275
MSTK

Can I still join?

Can I still join?

I didn't really want to have more than 6 Chunky Kong - it gets a bit confusing otherwise especially as this is my first succesion game. However I'll stick your name on the reserve list in the first post and if we have any drop outs you're welcome to join us.

Everyone is flaky...I think mtg has signed off...not sure.

I think we can just go with the list right now. If we change anything, it'll get too complciated.

take it mtg. i'll go last. I've got business for about the day or so.

Bede adds his tuppence worth:

Move the scout west first just to check out the neighborhood, and move the worker to the wheat. If the scout shows something intersting you could consoder moving the settler, but whatever you do, don't move so that the wheat is not immediately accessible.. Irrigate, then road the wheat, the irrigate the plains tiles along the river. As there are no bonus grass available we are going to have to depend on the forests for our two shield production for a while.

First build in the capitol should be a scout, then maybe another one, and a fourth, depending on what the two scouts uncover, after that I would need to see how the terrain develops, whether to build a granary or a settler, or a warrior. Scouts should be boxing the compass just as fast as their little legs can carry them. Exploration pattern should be due east/west or due north/south as that uncovers the most area.


Research at max to writing, the wheel is a cheap tech, writing is far more valuable, and will net more in the long run, then you can choose where to go from there, whether a max run at Philosophy...A lot depends on the trading opportunities.

IIRC, even with the expansionist trait, once you train the first unit with attack/defense >1, you run the risk of popping barbarians from goody huts, though it is less for an expansionist nation. So long as the neighbors are not in our face I would delay building any military.

Brief note on trading strategies: the optimum strategy requires two counterparties, not just one. So, instead of making a trade immediately on encountering another nation wait for the scouts in the other quadrants to report in.

My suggestion is to go with the above and make a run at Philosophy, Literature and GL.

Wait...this is Conquests 1.22, right?

yea it is

and no i havent signed off

will play in the morning

dont take the "online" button to mean that im actually here

yea it is

and no i havent signed off

will play in the morning

dont take the "online" button to mean that im actually here

OK mtgfreak - you go with it. If you do have a problem with the link to the .sav (I couldn't get it to work :( ) go to the upload file at the bottom of the page, goto the uploads7 directory, and the file is Clive1_Hittites_4000_BC.sav

Good luck all !

mtgfreak - up - first 20 turns
Admiral Kutzov - on deck - next 10 turns
Sir Clive
Bede
Viper275
MSTK

Good luck all !

IIRC, even with the expansionist trait, once you train the first unit with attack/defense >1, you run the risk of popping barbarians from goody huts, though it is less for an expansionist nation. So long as the neighbors are not in our face I would delay building any military.

Nope, expansionist never pops barbs. All others never pop barbs as long as they don't have any military (unit with more then 1 attack or defence, even coating ships).

Also, Japan is the only civ that starts with the wheel, so researching this at max is likely to get you a tech that nobody else has. (although the writing-philosophy gambit might pay off more)

1) One maybe critical problem - "Random Barbarians"? With an EXP Civ? IMHO, if you don't spot any huts soon, restart ;)

2) EXP never gets Barbs. Plopping a City never gets Barbs. And, ATAR units never get Barbs.

3) Research: While Writing is always a good choice, I would never do it full speed. Do a minimum run, save cash, and rush to Philosophy at 100%.
However, this strategy is a questionable choice if you want to get max benefit from the EXP trait: A hut always give the cheapest Tech available. Thus, since you start with Pottery, set research to CB at minimum. That means, you'll get BW from a hut. Trade for CB ASAP, set research to WC. Thus, you get the Wheel next, then Masonry, or, if you happen to trade for it (what tells F10?), a second tier tech.

4) Great Library? With an EXP/COM Civ, in a Monarch game that should help your playing skills? :nono: to me.... You will build it if you want it, unless someone gets a SGL, but what's the point of it?

Here goes:

Turn 1: Move worker onto wheat, find another wheat in borders of Hattusas
move scout NW then West to find desert close by.
Found Hattusas on original starting spot, will get 2 wheat, a game and a spices
Set reasearch to Ceremonial Burial min run, gaining +3gpt

IBT: Nothing

Turn 2: Worker builds road to eastern wheats

IBT: nothing

Turn 3: Get a free warrior from goody hut, move warrior onto mountain and see a cattle on grass

IBT: Nothing

Turn 4: exploring

Turn 5: 25 gold from another hut, see a second cattle close to the first one, worker starts irrigating wheat

Turn 6: exploring

Turn 7: exploring

Turn 8: exploring

Turn 9: got another warrior from hut, hattusas: warrior -> settler, worker finishes irrigation, moves to other wheats

Turn 10: hattusas border expands, exploring

Turn 11: exploring

Turn 12: exploring

Turn 13: exploring

IBT: Volcano erupts, get to see fireworks show

Turn 14: hattusas in disorder cause i forgot to change lux slider :blush:, settler due in 3 though, find green borders

Turn 15: goody hut pops yet another warrior, get the wheel from Japan for alphabet +20g, no horses on map though,

Turn 16: exploring

Turn 17: hattusas settler ->settler, move settler SE to coastal spot with wheat, tobacco, fishes, and 3 bg

Turn 18: find horses in bad location southwest of desert

Turn 19: exploring

Turn 20: exploring

After 20 turns, we know where 4 luxs are, we have met the japs, and somehow have a unit upkeep cost of 3gpt

if someone else could get a screenshot of this cause i dont have a paint program on my comp

here is the save file

Here you go:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/screenshot.jpg
Yay! We have Japan nearby!

i wonder if we can make hattusas into a settler factory

i wonder if we can make hattusas into a settler factoryI'm sure you guys can turn it into some kind of settler pump. Whether it'll be the classic 4-turn variety is another question.

To make a settler factory you need a granary, 5 surplus food per turn, and the ability to make 30 shields in 4 turns.

Some questions:

Is that a game on the tile S-SW of the city center?

How much food is the Irrigated wheat on the plains getting you, compared to the one on grass?

How are you guys on dotmaps?

That looks like a classic size 4-6, 4 turn settler factory. You could have made it even with the second wheat on plains, by doing size 5-7.

The grassland wheat will give you 2 surplus food, the plains wheat will give 1 surplus food and 1 production. With 2 production from the game, you just need 1 other square with 1 production, and you actually have one that gives 2 (Mined BG).

take it mtg. i'll go last. I've got business for about the day or so.

OK Admiral - I'll move you to the end which means I am up next.

mtgfreak - Just played
Sir Clive - Got it ! will play next 10 turns
Bede - on deck
Viper275 -
MSTK -
Admiral Kutzov -

Seeing as I am in UK and would like some input before I play my turns I will plan to play Wed night . However I am out until fairly late Wed so possibly may not have time to finish and may not post the save / turnlog until Thu evening London time

I have learnt quite a bit already from your turns. Normally I wouldn't have the nerve to only build 1 warrior, even as expansionist (since I am a bit of a coward re getting behind on military) but the scouts worked really well and we don't look as if we are in danger of a mass invasion from our opponents.

Good work getting the wheel . I hadn't noticed (as Tarkeel pointed out) that the Japanes are the only one's who start with it so I guess we got a bit of luck there.

As Tarkeel points out, our capital looks like a classic settler factory - I guess we out to start thinking about where we will put the next couple of settlements.

Is that a game on the tile S-SW of the city center?

yea it is

i think the irrigated wheat is getting 4fpt vs grassland 2fpt

@Sir Clive, normally i wouldnt build just one warrior either, but the huts were giving us a lot, and i didnt want to lose too much from the unit costs

Some questions:

Is that a game on the tile S-SW of the city center?

How much food is the Irrigated wheat on the plains getting you, compared to the one on grass?

How are you guys on dotmaps?


Re S-SW - Yes it is game !
Re wheat - plains 3/2/1 - grassland 4/2/0
Dotmaps - I am rubbish - I have never done one before (this is my first SG !)

I've never used RCP. I've normally tended to try to build my cities as close as possible to the resources / land that I want without caring too much about the distance between them . I do appreciate the point of having no more than 3 tiles between centres so that troops can move quickly but I only tend to do that on smaller maps.

One thing that slightly concerns me is that there look like quite a few places which will be excellent for quick population growth but not too many which have big shield potential. We're going to need to start pumping out some military at some stage and I'm not sure where we should build the town which will have our first barracks.

How do you guys feel about worker numbers ? I tend to normally have at least 2 per town. Although we don't have too much jungle / forest to deal with I think we are going to need to mine a few grasslands early on and we're going to need to road out to the horse ASAP. If we're going out that way early we may be able to grab the 3 incense .

I'll now try for my first dot map (might take me some time !!)

Re S-SW - Yes it is game !
Re wheat - plains 3/2/1 - grassland 4/2/0
Dotmaps - I am rubbish - I have never done one before (this is my first SG !)If you're getting 4 food from the grass/wheat (+2 surplus) and 3 from the plains/wheat (+1 surplus) then you've got your +5fpt surplus for the settler pump (+2 from city center). I've never used RCP. <snip> Forget about RCP. This is conquests, right? RCP is out. Make your city site selections based on terrain, and how you want to use it.
One thing that slightly concerns me is that there look like quite a few places which will be excellent for quick population growth but not too many which have big shield potential. I disagree... I don't see a lot of floodplains...
How do you guys feel about worker numbers ?You're going to need some more workers, true. Setting up a worker factory is something worth considering with all the land up for grabs... but you need more cites first. IMO, a more pressing matter is figuring out how you're going to develop the capitol from this point.

I'd be glad to have a look if you'd like me to... it'd help if someone would zoom in on the capitol, take a screencap, and crop everything but the city itself.

I did the math for the settler factory and here's what I got:

We need 5 fpt plus 2 for each citizen. We also need 8 spt. Spt is shields per turn and fpt is food per turn. I'm not counting gold per turn here since it's fpt and spt we worry about with the settler factory.

The capital alone produces 2 fpt and 1 spt, so it can support the first citizen and give 1 shield. That citizen works on the irrigated plains square with wheat (3 fpt and 1 spt.) So now we need 2 more fpt plus 2 for each citizen, and 7 more spt. The second citizen works on the irrigated grassland with wheat, which gives 4 fpt and 0 spt. So now we need no more fpt as long as we have 2 for each citizen and 7 spt. Now the third citizen works on the Game square with the forest, generating 2 fpt and 2 spt. Now we need 5 more spt. The fourth citizen can work the bonus grassland, which when mined gives us 2 spt and 2 fpt. 3 spt left. My thought from here is to irrigate the sugar, so it gives 3 fpt and 1 spt. That's 1 additional fpt to support the sixth and final citizen working a forest square.

The only problem with this is that we'd have to get around unhappiness. Since luxuries are raised, does that mean that one of our citizens born content is happy (that's my assumtion, but it's not that the citizen happy doesn't take the content citizen.) So a temple makes the third citizen content, then 2 units for martial law make citizens content, and the 1 unhappy citizen is balanced out by the happy one (and by then, the 10% luxuries would make more than just 1 citizen happy, right?) So this should work unless we switch to Republic, and by then we could have Colosseums.

Viper, irrigating the sugar will only give 2 food in despotism. You also don't need 8 shields, you need 6-6-7-7 with a forest each time you grow, turning it into 6-8-7-9. Scroll back to my previous post on how your current location is a settler factory :)

Luxury works in turning a certain % of the gold the city produces into happines, the same way it turns gold into gpt and research beakers. 1 gold from luxury = 1 happy person. It will try to make content people happy first, and if there are no contents, it makes an unhappy citizen content. You'll most likely be running 30% lux (I sometimes run 50% lux in the start), but gold isn't as important as food and population is, atleast in the start.

Here is how you would set up your factory:

irrigated wheat on plains: 3f, 1s
irrigated wheat on grass: 4f, 0s
Mined BG tile: 2f, 2s
Mined Sugar on plains: 2f, 2s
City center square: 2f,1s

For a total of 13f and 6s. For size 4, you need 8f, leaving a surplus of 5f.

For turn one : work the above, getting 6s
For turn two: Same as above, but the new citizen gets added to the forest, givinga free 2s, for a total of 14.
For turn three: move citizen from forestto mined grass, get 7s for a total of 21
For turn four: Same as above, second new citizen gets added to forest to get 2 free shields, total of 30.

Note: You must have the governor set to "emphasize production for this to work. You also have to move the citizen on every turn two.

@team:Tarkeel and Sesn are on it. Don't overlook the game/forest tile, 2fpt/2spt, and don't overlook the fact that you can't grow 2 citizens in 4 turns without a granary.

Somebody posted something about temples... it's a little early for that. Bede'll probably say that's another one of my understatements.

Also - if that's a settler to the southeast near that wheat tile, you might have found your worker pump... (though you need to be careful where you plant him)

Re: Dotmaps. I find it helpful to take screencaps with gridlines one, and outline the nine tiles surrounding possible city centers. It helps paint a clear picture of how you are utilizing the terrain. Some prefer to sketch out 21, but I like to work with 9 because it tells me what that city will get to use immediately.

Once you have a settling plan roughed in, it makes it a lot easier to manage the expansion phase.

Just my free advice. I hope it's worth the price. :)

I'd be glad to have a look if you'd like me to... it'd help if someone would zoom in on the capitol, take a screencap, and crop everything but the city itself.

Here's the city shot (although I think pretty much a full description has been posted by now :)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Hattusas_3000BC.JPG

(hope I got it right this time :) )

Just my free advice. I hope it's worth the price. :)

I think I want my money back -- with interest!! :lol:

suggest we put next settlement to west, directly between the cow and the lone mountain. Events are interesting so far (i've never used the lux slider this early in the game). I usually like to start a barracks somewhere after we've built the 4th city - thoughts?

Sir Clive - you can upload sav fies as an attachment.

Also, can you move me near the bototm? I have no connection to the internet until Thursday.

Sir Clive - you can upload sav fies as an attachment.

Also, can you move me near the bototm? I have no connection to the internet until Thursday.

This is the current roster MSTK -

mtgfreak - Just played
Sir Clive - Got it ! will play next 10 turns
Bede - on deck
Viper275 -
MSTK -
Admiral Kutzov -

I will be playing tomorrow night (London time) so you are unlikely to be up before the weekend

OK - I will be playing tomorrow evening so here are my initial thoughts

Research is at 8/1/1 we have 79G and are at +1G PT
We have
1 settler, 1 worker , 1 scout, 4 warriors (units allowed 4 - cost 3 gpt)

Hattusas is builder Settler , due in 9

We are researching CB - due in 31

General plan -

1) Micromanage Hattusas to become settler factory as per lurkers / players recommendations.

2) Settle second city. Would like to do this ASAP - would 1 tile SE of where he currently is be any good ? We would have fish + BG + coast and then 2bg tobacco and wheat after expansion.

3) Hattusas Settler when built ) to head south west towards cattle / horses / silks

4) Second city to start producing a couple of workers initially , then barracks / military ,(or can we afford to wait for third city to do that ? ). We are going to need some MP sooner or later unless we want to keep lux tax at a ridiculously high level.

5) We are going to need to hook up some lux soon or increase luxury tax - don't think I will be able to get the wines to the north or the spices to the west hooked up in my 10 turns but I think we need to try to head out West to secure the horses .

6) Keep moving scouts North and see what we find .

7) Research - we are currently researching CB due in 31 and Japan already has this - should we switch ?

Sorry I haven't managed a dot map yet :(

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Clive_3000_dotmap.jpg.JPG

I do agree with Admiral that the second town is probably best to the west but since the settler is already headed south and we have another on the way soon I think we would waste too many turns turning him around.

I'd like to get the horses hooked up earlier but I can't really see any way of doing it without leaving huge gaps.

Iron would be useful at some stage and most of the land around us is fairly flat so that's why I have gone for D , but we we might need to swap D and E around

Oh, dang. Hittites? Don't have C3C...people should REALLY put what version of Civ 3 they're doing...

Oh, dang. Hittites? Don't have C3C...people should REALLY put what version of Civ 3 they're doing...


Really sorry Chunky - It's my first ever succession game so I'm not very good at this yet :( I will update the opening post to make it clear

Let's try this dotmap thing again... something got nerfed up here... Is this your dotmap, Sir Clive?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Clive_3000_dotmap.jpg.JPG

mtgfreak:
Turn 17: hattusas settler ->settler, move settler SE to coastal spot with wheat, tobacco, fishes, and 3 bg

While I like mtgfreak's thinking here, I'm not sure we need to grab all that with one city....

Admiral_Kutzov
suggest we put next settlement to west, directly between the cow and the lone mountain.

I like a couple of spots in that area too...for a number of reasons. Don't be surprised if that spot shows up on "another" dotmap. :mischief:

The more I look at Clive's "Site A", the more I like it... I hadn't noticed the whale down there. In time, that one could become a coastal powerhouse.

I'm going to play with this and see if I can't come up with something for the team to chew on....

[QUOTE=scoutsout]Let's try this dotmap thing again... something got nerfed up here... Is this your dotmap, Sir Clive?

Yes it is - I think I've fixed the link now . Sorry - for some reason it ended up as a XXX.jpg.jpg - I think I have fixed it now.

That'll teach me to start posting stuff late at night after a long day at work :(

Thanks a lot scoutsout !

Somebody posted something about temples... it's a little early for that. Bede'll probably say that's another one of my understatements.


Temples...temples...priests are prevaricating parasites who pillage the body politic.

You want culture, build libraries. You get something back from the investment.

You want content citizens, build marketplaces, trade for luxuries, build towns for luxuries, build colonies for luxuries.

If happiness is a problem in a settler or worker farm, it is a self-limiting problem. Raise the luxury tax, hire an MP, you only need to make the expenditure for a couple of turns. Temples are with you forever and are a permanent drag on the economy.

Understatement...bah!

This is probably a little tighter build-out pattern than some of you guys are used to. The idea here is that claiming terrain is nice, but in order for the terrain to do you any good, you've got to have citizens working tiles. You don't have much in the way of rivers here. A lot of these towns will be stuck at size 6 without aquecucts; better to use the best 6 of 9 tiles than the best 6 of 20 or so... Forget everything you ever read about Optimal City Placement. Wecome to the levels in which the AI enjoy production and research discounts over the human. :D

Just my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

Dotmap notes:

1) This looks like a decent place to pump workers, and you're there already.
2) If you're going to have a second settler pump, it'll be here. This will also be the only site you have besides your capitol that won't need an aqueduct.
3) Beating Japan to the Silks will be tough.
4) Instant road connection to horse town
4a) Beating Japan to the horses will also be tough.

The pink-ish line is a priority road project. Don't neglect improvements in the capitol to build this road, but building it quickly should help expansion efforts.

My thoughts:

Try to get a second settler pump going at Site 2...or at least a site capable of producing enough settlers to help with expansion. If you could get 4 settlers out of this city to settle the 4 sites to the south, it will take a lot of pressure off the primary settler pump.

To the north of the northernmost site (wines) lies another river... and some jungle. You'll need to get there if you can - for coal and rubber. There is also some incense to the northwest... but you'll probably have to take that from somebody else.

Beating Japan to the horses and Silks will be tough; you should probably start mulling over war-plans for for Japan in the back of your mind. And no, I'm not kidding about that. ;)

Going back to lurk mode for a while...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/scouts_dotmap-for_clive.jpg

Another masterpiece of urban planning, Master Builder scoutsout.

You have nailed down 11 really productive sites.

One thing I am concerned about is the lack of hills. That is going to hurt once we get to needing shields, although mined plains will make up for some of it.

Anyone want to play for a 20K cultural victory?

One thing I am concerned about is the lack of hills. That is going to hurt once we get to needing shields, although mined plains will make up for some of it.You guys all need to take stock in the amount of bonus grass you've got.

The Silk site is hard to tell, because all the grass is forested. The southwest site (2 whales after a Library) has no BG, but has a game/forest. The site S-S-SW of #2 has THREE BGs in 9 tiles, while the site SW of #2 has a pair,and should claim that other cow. The site next to the Tobacco has 2 BGs in 9 tiles. The SE site that can claim a whale with a library has a BG. The southernmost site has a BG.

... you get the picture...

Edit: Unit Factory, S-S-SW of #2. THREE BGs in nine tiles... grow it to size 6 and you should get 10 spt before corruption... I project 4-turn 3-Man Chariots, or Archers in 3. You should be able to put citizen #6 to work as a tax collector/scientist without slowing down unit builds...

Some very informative points scoutsout - thank you very much.

I now realise why I am still only a Regent / Monarch level player at best :)

I am worried about our lack of military and I agree that we are probably going to have to go to war against Japan at some stage in the near future so I will bear that in mind when playing my turns.

I will go for a worker pump with the next city (SE in either my suggested A position or scoutsout's suggested position)
Settle 3rd city somewhere west of the capital and start on Barracks / Military,

A couple of other things that haven't been discussed -

1) When should we plan to build granary in our capital / 2nd town?

2) What is our attitdude if the AI ask for a 'tribute' ? I normally tend to cave in and on the odd occasion I have stood up to them they have almost inevitably declared war . I can usually cope with that at regent but I have absolutely no desire to go to war in the next ten turns seeing as we only have 4 warriors and no horses / iron :).

I am therefore inclined to give the AI anything they ask for in my next 10 turns :(

@SirClive: Among all those sites I plotted out, the only one I feel strongly about is #2. The power of a city founded on a river is tremendous, and that's the best option I see for putting a city on a river. (You've only got a couple other options...)

On tribute: Best to give in until you're prepared to have them declare war. I'll let Bede tell you what can happen when you don't. :rolleyes:

See the edit in my previous post regarding units. You've got a nice potential unit factory due south of Site #2...

Anyone want to play for a 20K cultural victory?

I wouldn't mind trying for that (althouhg I am trying to improve my warmongering, my primary concern is to win :) )

I assume that means we will have to target some early wonders and we are going to have to get some high production cities going to do that ?

We are also going to need to get CB as quickly as possible and the Japanese already have it (and they are the only civ we know at the moment) so that will mean we have to discard the plan of going to war with them I suppose.

I prefer the peaceful / trading / diplomatic game, but since we have only met the Japanese so far I am inclined to think we may have to go to war with them fairly early if we are to take control of our land area which will make it difficult to keep content (and get cultural growth) until we get out of Despotism

@SirClive: Among all those sites I plotted out, the only one I feel strongly about is #2. The power of a city founded on a river is tremendous, and that's the best option I see for putting a city on a river. (You've only got a couple other options...)


I thought #2 was on a river scoutsout - if it was I would definitely go for it . However it is one of those nasty ones where the bend of the river barely enters the square. I don't think it is on the river - if someone could confirm / deny I would be greatful !!


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/river.JPG

[QUOTE=scoutsout
On tribute: Best to give in until you're prepared to have them declare war. I'll let Bede tell you what can happen when you don't. :rolleyes:
[/QUOTE]

Just go see The Rising Sun Bede02. I think we have been at war since 3950BC and it was not planned as an AW game. All the other nations are an age ahead of us and we are hanging on by our toe-nails.

As for 20K being peaceful builder games I commend the LK67 thread to your attention. War started there at the end of the MA and lasted until the end of the Modern Era....

[QUOTE=Sir Clive]I thought #2 was on a river scoutsout - if it was I would definitely go for it . However it is one of those nasty ones where the bend of the river barely enters the square. I don't think it is on the river - if someone could confirm / deny I would be greatful !!


Just realised that if it is plains but getting 1 gold it must be on the river. Is this a reliable way to tell ? The square to the east is also showing F1, G1, S1 bat seems to be well away from the river radius and is also a plains with no improvements ???

Just go see The Rising Sun Bede02. I think we have been at war since 3950BC and it was not planned as an AW game. All the other nations are an age ahead of us and we are hanging on by our toe-nails.

Come now, Bede, our toenails? We have at least scraped back to our toes, right?

Sir clive, that is a reliable way to tell if a tile is considered on a river or not. A river tile always produces one more commerce than normal. Similarly, you can tell if water is fresh if it automatically produces two food instead of one. (useful before the map is revealed)

Wow! I just got my internet connection back up, so I don't have to be on the bottom anymore.

Come now, Bede, our toenails? We have at least scraped back to our toes, right?I could've sworn I got at least a fingernail into Henry's eye when I sacked the bartender... and I know I at least gave Mao the finger... but we digress... badly...

Sir clive, that is a reliable way to tell if a tile is considered on a river or not. A river tile always produces one more commerce than normal. Similarly, you can tell if water is fresh if it automatically produces two food instead of one. (useful before the map is revealed)Sesn's right here. If it's vacant land, and showing +1gpt, then it's on the river.

Major Edit:

@Bede: 20k Culture?!?!?! I mean...

kul-cher!?!?

Aw c'mon, Brother Bede, where's the training value in that?!?!? :p

Yeah! War! Forever! We better have Japan eliminated by 1000 AD!

My 5c on the dotmaps:
I for one don't see the need for the cramped version of scoutsout. I for one want core cities that can work at least 12, and some of them should have all 20. And there are a lot of nice spots, though they need aquaducts (but since I prefer SEA Civs anyway, I'm used to that :rolleyes: ).

Thus, my proposal:
Scoutsout dot #2, no question.
Then, send a Settler with escort out to the Horses - your UU isn't lasting long, you should head for a better Gov, and immediately strike.
Otherwise, I'd go with Sir Clives site A, a coastal city SE of the hill, and the 2 coastal spots from scoutsout around the Wheat and the Whales. By that time, you should know more about the area N from your capital, and especially where Iron is.
And I see no need to hurry to any Luxuries, but Horses are REALLY crucial; remember, you're wasting your UU otherwise.

Thus, my proposal:
Scoutsout dot #2, no question.
Then, send a Settler with escort out to the Horses - your UU isn't lasting long, you should head for a better Gov, and immediately strike.
Otherwise, I'd go with Sir Clives site A, a coastal city SE of the hill, and the 2 coastal spots from scoutsout around the Wheat and the Whales. By that time, you should know more about the area N from your capital, and especially where Iron is.
And I see no need to hurry to any Luxuries, but Horses are REALLY crucial; remember, you're wasting your UU otherwise.


I'm just about to play - I agree with your verdict on dot #2 and the horses but it will wast several turns turning the existing settler around and getting there . Since our capital is tied up building a settler for most of my turn I'm going to settle the southern city first so we can pump some workers out to get the capital as a fully functioning settler factory .

I'm no longer going out tonight so I should be able to get all my turns done and posted before all you US folks get home from work / school /wherever :)


My broad plan will be (in no particular order)


1) settle town 1 tile south of where settler currently is (pos A on my dotmap )2) MM Capital to become a settler factory
3) Continue scouting - hopefully make some more contacts.
4) Build some MP - our capital is going to get unhappier as it gets bigger and
I don't think I will get to hook up any lux this turn
5) Try not to mess up too much :)

I'm still not quite sure about the research - I'll just leave it as it us unless we manage to get CB off someone via a trade.

I think your plan is sound, Sir Clive. I would probably build a worker in the town you're about to build. I wouldn't sweat the MPs... pull that conscript warrior that you guys popped out of the goody hut, and bring him back to the capitol.... Conscript warriors aren't much good against barbs...and you've got scouts to pop huts with.

OK - finished my turns - here is the summary.

Detailed turnlog , map and save will follow shortly.

Didn't turn out too bad in the end - the towns are very slow in development and only managed to build 2 units - the settler that was already started and a worker from the second town. The settler factory is still a way off being completed .

However trading and hut popping went reasonably well (I think ) and we are well ahead in gold out of the 3 known civs and up in techs.

Hittites 191g +5gpt, Japan 19 in treasury, India 0 in treasury

We are up Mysticism on India and up Masonry and Mysticism on Japan.

Map and turnlog to come (my first ever succession game - hence my first ever turnlog. Hope it doesnt stink too much :( )

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Clive_2550BC.JPG

Preturn check - Sliders are at 8/1/1 researching CB due in 31
1 settler, 1 worker , 1 scout, 4 warrior = 7gpt (Allowed 4) = -3gpt
Hattusas growth in 5 , Settler due in 9.

To get settler factory we need (Thanks SensOfWthr !)

irrigated wheat on plains: 3f, 1s
irrigated wheat on grass: 4f, 0s
Mined BG tile: 2f, 2s
Mined Sugar on plains: 2f, 2s
City center square: 2f,1s

For a total of 13f and 6s. For size 4, you need 8f, leaving a surplus of 5f.

For turn one : work the above, getting 6s
For turn two: Same as above, but the new citizen gets added to the forest, givinga free 2s, for a total of 14.
For turn three: move citizen from forestto mined grass, get 7s for a total of 21
For turn four: Same as above, second new citizen gets added to forest to get 2 free shields, total of 30.

Note: You must have the governor set to "emphasize production for this to work. You also have to move the citizen on every turn two.
so set governor to emphasise production, and I am going to need to mine the BG tile
and the sugar tile.

Everything else I leave as it is

2950 (1) - set governor in Hattasus to emphasis production
move worker to BG
move settler to SE
move warriors and workers - find nothing new
Japanese will not trade us either BW or CB
2900 (2) - worker starts mining BG
settle Tarsus - start building worker
move warriors and scout - find nothing new
we are now at 81G +5 gpt
Japanese will trade us either BW or CB for 81G + 4gpt
Seeing as we are going to be building workers / settlers for the next few turns
I will wait a bit and see if the price comes down . Hope this wasn't :(
2850 (3) - wandering warrior finds another horse alongside a river in the NW
wandering warrior finds a hut
another north wandering warrior uncovers a hut and 2 spices close to 2 cattle
and a lake.
We have 91G + 5gpt
Japanese will no longer trade us BW - will let us have CB for 75g + 3gpt
I might go for this if we had someone else to trade it to but I decide to
keep our cash.
2800 (4) - Warrior pops hut and gets another warrior
Warrior pops hut and gets warrior code. Also uncovers another spice.
Looks like a plethora of resources up here !
Japanese will let us have either BW or CB + 61G for warrior code
Accept and research switches automatically to Bronze working (50 turns). Leave it
there - next player can change if they want to !
2750 (5) - Warrior moves north and spots purple borders of India
Uncover more map with scout / warriors but nothing much of note
Contact India and get Bronze working + 10 g for Warrior code.
We are now up the Wheel on India (they have no cash to give us) and equal
on techs with Japan.
We have 167g + 6gpt
Score Hittites 81, Japan 72, India 72.
2700 (6) - Encroach Gandhi's borders by mistake and he asks us to leave (whoops)
Settler completes in Hattusas - switch to settler due in 30 since Hattusas is
now size 1. We need workers to get the settler factory functioning, but Tarsus isn't
pumping them out yet :(
2670 (7) - Get Masonry from India for the Wheel . Japan does not have masonry and only
has 19g so I'll try and wit until they have a tech to trade (although I guess
India will probably sell it to them anyway :( )
Move warriors , scout - get Mysticism from a hut.
I'm a little worried about our settler heading west from the capital - he
really should have some protection but all our military is out scouting. Think
I may have to switch Tarsus to a military unit next but I don't really like
building mil without barracks - some advice please !!
We're at 183g + 4pt
2630 (8) - Worker completes mine on BG near Hattusas. Settler moves West
Start moving 2 of the warriors back towards the capital (but they have a
long way to go :( )
2590 (9) - Settler continues to move West . No trades for tech available. One of the
north bound warriors spys the edge of what looks like an orange border.

2550 (10) - Scout pops a hut and an advanced Libyan village joins us !! We now
have Ugarit but it is right next door to an unknown Indian town :( Change production
to temple (due in 60 :) ) . Scout spots another hut .

Save game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Clive1_Hittites_2550_BC.SAV)

mtgfreak -
Sir Clive - Just played
Bede - Up next - please post a 'got it' when you have !
Viper275 - In the wings
MSTK -
Admiral Kutzov -

After the first city or two, you should always escort your settlers. You'd hate to have a barb come running out of the fog and take him. Even a conscript warrior is better than nothing.

You should probably switch hattusas off of a settler. As noted, you'll need to be at size 4 to start churning settlers, and building settlers will never get you to size 4. Do you have a granary there yet? Maybe switch to that and get a helpful forest chop?

1. someone please send me instructions on how to make a dotmap
2.. I like scout's thoughts on city placement if we are not going to go for wonders (around the time of Leonardo);
If we are going to go for late wonders without moving our palace, then I suggest we have our core cities able to grow as large as possible (optimal city placement). If the later, I suggest next city in Scout's #2 and the one after that SW, S, S, S of Hatusas (for barracks and unit factory)
3. I concur with previous posts that we need to RUN to horses ASAP.
4. FYI, I'm intuitive, I don't usually crunch numbers like y'all and I like to gamble. Barbs haven't been much of a problem to date. we can risk running settlers to desired location w/o escorts. if barbs hit the cities and take gold, so what?

You should probably switch hattusas off of a settler. As noted, you'll need to be at size 4 to start churning settlers, and building settlers will never get you to size 4. Do you have a granary there yet? Maybe switch to that and get a helpful forest chop?

Thanks SensOfWthr - I got a bit confused since I have never tried for a settler factory before. I do normally go for granary and growth ASAP in my central towns before building units when I am playing individual games and had forgotten that constant churning of settlers / workers at size 2/3 will mean we never grow big enough to hit optimum settler factory size . I would therefore agree that build granary and then get to size 4/5/6 before churning out the settlers / workers is very sound advice .

Unfortunately we don't have enough workers to start chopping forests yet but I guess things should pick up a bit once we get our 3rd town founded.

FYI, I'm intuitive, I don't usually crunch numbers like y'all and I like to gamble. Barbs haven't been much of a problem to date. we can risk running settlers to desired location w/o escorts. if barbs hit the cities and take gold, so what?The risk is not barbarians stealing gold from your cities, the risk is that the barbs will pop your settler flatfooted, and you won't get the city build in the first place.

I would not care about a barb sacking the city so much as I would care about them taking your settlers.....
EDIT: Scout beat me to it

Here's how I make a dotmap:
-Center the screen on whatever view of the game you want to make a dotmap of (I find it easier to leave the gridlines on, but personal pref)
-Press the "print screen" key on your keyboard (also PrtSc)
-Then I open up Paint
-Press ctrl-v to paste in the screen image
-I generally use the spray can thingie to make my dots
-Save the file, but make sure you save as a jpg or gif (mine always defaults to a bmp)
-Post on the forums (let me know if you don't know how to do that)

Bede's got it.

Priorities:
1) Build a granary and a barracks.
2) Pull conscripts back for MP duty
3) Get workers devoted to developing capitol
4) Set up the new town to grow to size 2 then abandon for a free settler and move him back closer to the core.
5) Make more friends.

@ Bede: What is this abandon/free settler business, and why do you want to abandon a town?

i think they want to get rid of Ugarit, the town they popped from the hut.

It's far to the NW, and a big flip risk being on the (Iroquois? Vikings?) purple border. Abandoning it this way allows them to move it to a more productive/closer location.

Whenever I abandon a city I get a Ruins. Am I doing something wrong?

Yes and No.

That's the normal way to abandon it, just right-click and select "abandon city".

Another way to do it is to get your town to pop 2, and give it no extra food. Then when you build the settler, you'll get a popup giving you the choice of waiting until there is food available in the city, or abandoning the city an building the settler. That way, when it is early in the game like this, you don't really lose the city, you just kind of "move" it.

HTH

Whenever I abandon a city I get a Ruins. Am I doing something wrong?I don't think so... I'm not sure where Brother Bede is going with the abandon city/instant settler thing.. perhaps he'll set the queue to settler, and abandon it after it makes a settler...

@Bede: Did you note that Sir Clive got Mysticism?

We probably ought to have a discussion here on minimum research gambits... a Polytheism gambit might work well here...

@Sir Clive: You did pretty good with the tech part. There are probably some "finer points" that could be discussed, but you played that part of soundly.

A "general rule"...invest your research in second- and third-tier techs. Trade for the first tier techs.

On Masonry: I love to get this one into the AI's hands ASAP, so they plow lots of shields into the Pyramids.

I wouldn't abandon Ugarit unless it's really horribly indefendable. From my experience, advanced towns are always next to future resources.
Maybe that is complete nonsense, though ;)... never saw any analysis here.

Sorry for the lack of analysis on the "town abandon".

And DocT is right, now that I have had a chance to sleep on it. Just when I looked at the picture Ugarit appeared to be sooo far from the homeland, and I didn't think about the resource thing, then I remembered the 3MWC....and now it doesn't look so far after all. I sometimes have a hard time seeing beyond the end of my Irish nose!!! :D

On the Polytheism gambit: it's a good one but it will mean a trade off for the upper tier, but may put more money in our pocket than chasing Philosophy. The other thing to think about is do we have any elephants in the savanna? If we do then Philosophy in hopes of getting Map Making free, followed by Math for the SofZ, then Currency, might make sense too.

Won't play until tonight so all help given will be useful

-2550
First steps, shut off lux as we have only one citizen in all our towns, so no unhappiness problems.

Play with the map controls to get a better view and realize we are at the outer edge of a shield and food paradise.

Now for a ittle analysis of the neighbors:
Japan is religious and militaristic with a MA UU requiring only one resource (iron).
India is commercial and religious with a MA UU requiring no resources.

And if I remember correctly both UU's are upgrades from horses!

So, both neighbors will put a premium on cultural knowledge, India will value things like Math and Currency higher, while Japan will put a value on the Military knowledge. So we have lots of choices as to a research path. Neither are scientific..All of this tempts me to pursue the Writing to Philosphy gambit, thinking to trade Writing for Iron Working and Polytheism and taking Monarchy as the Philsophy benefit (assuming we get there before any other nation).

In between all this musing switch the temple build at Ugarit to a worker, and swap citizens around at the home towns to boost output and protect growth (moving the citizen at Hasttusas to the mined tile and the citizen at Tarsus to the wheat) start a granary in Hattusas, and let Tarsus finish its worker.

Set research to Writing at 20% (50turns).

1-2510
Foound Riverbend at...riverbend. Start barracks. Worker moves to road the game tile. Scout and warriors start boxing the compass. Conscript in the far north finds another village. With the extra commerce form the new town crank up the research to 100%, Writing now due in 26. Hattusas grows and the new citizen gets assigned to the irrigated plains. This is going to take some fiddling to get the granary on growth matched up. Grnary in 14, growth in seven

Tarsus builds it workers and it too starts a granary

2-2470BC Northern warrior greets the friendly Bantu who donate maps. His next moce will be due east to the coast and then homeward. Worker from Tarsus heads to the forest for a little lumberjacking. I was smoking wacky tabaccy when I assigned the worker at Hattusas to roading. He should be chopping trees too,

3-2430
Meet a Ghizz conscript in the near north. Warrior heads south towards home.

Meet a Russian (scientific and expansionist with a late MA UU that is an stone killer reqioring saltpeeter and horses) on a vector towards Ugarit and India. Hope Catherine is disposed to be friendly as her warrior is four turns closer to Ugarit than the warrior I have inbound. She has gold but no knowledge to trade. I don't like trading away Alphabet and Masonry yet but will have to soon.

And her warior moves away from Ugarit and the Indian town, which appears to be the only one. The Ghuzz barbarian moves northward away from the scouting warrior.

4-2390
Continue exploring north, west and east.

5-2350
Contiue exploring and find the Russian border in the really far west, with a warrior settler pair ready to move east.

6-2310
Explore some more

7-2270
Exploring. Forest chop puts ten shields toward the granary at Tarsus and reveals a BG. Worker starts a mine.

Russians pop a hut and learn Masonry.



8-2230

We do the same in the north and collect more gold...

Tarsus grows and the lux tax goes to 10% but the new citizen pulls in enough gold to offset the increase. New citizen is put to work on the game forest and growth will now come in seven and the granary in 5. Worker at Hattusas finshes road and moves to forest outside Tarsus.

9-2190
Japan has learned Mysticism.

10-2150
The scout in the north has found a yellow border to his east. The warrior in the west is tracing the Russian border. The warriors north of the homeland are scoping the coast and heading home.

Riverbend will grow in one just as an MP arrives.

Granary at Tarsus will finish in ~10 turns with some help from growth, lumberjacking and a mine. Fiddle with the citizen assignments so that the growth happens after the granary build. Hattusas is on course to complete its granary in 3 and grow in five. When the granaries finish at both cities, train a worker at each, then set Hattusas to producing a settler. Time the worker to the population growth. The worker at Hattusas should start the needed development towards a settler farm. The workers at Tarsus should start improving the ground to support five productive citizens. The sixth can go fishing. As we get closer to writing try adjusting the science budget downwards so as not to waste gold. Also the lux slider will have to go up as Tarsus and Hattusas grow so the waste of gold is self-limiting. And the production of a worker first will relieve the upward pressure on the lux tax.

The objectives of the worker team should be to develop terrain as citizens become available to work it, don't bother to develop terrain before a citizen is available to work it.

The Russian settler team planted Novgorod due east of the Russian borders.

A note on trading: don't be too eager. If the deal isn't rich enough let it go. Only make a trade when you have something to trade for it down the line, in other words if you need gold to close a deal for knowledge find another party to make a deal with to acquire the gold, then do the deal, then move on the third, and the fourth, trading tech for tech, try not to trade knowledge only for gold. Don't sweat it if we are third to learn something, we know enough people that the others don't that trading at fourth and fifth will be very profitable. To get an approximation of tech value you can crank the science budget up to 100%, then multiply the science expense in the F1 screen by the turns required. This will give you a starting point for negotiation, but you will always pay more than that for a monopoly technology. (I forget what the factor is at Monarch just that it is more.) Rememeber the other guys won't call you if they have something to sell, if they run into you in the forest they might put something on offer but it is usually not to your advantage, so check in every turn. Persistence pays.

0-2550
First steps, shut off lux as we have only one citizen in all our towns, so no unhappiness problems.

Play with the map controls to get a better view and realize we are at the outer edge of a shield and food paradise.

Now for a little analysis of the neighbors:
Japan is religious and militaristic with a MA UU requiring only one resource (iron).
India is commercial and religious with a MA UU requiring no resources.

And if I remember correctly both UU's are upgrades from horses!

So, both neighbors will put a premium on cultural knowledge, India will value things like Math and Currency higher, while Japan will put a value on the Military knowledge. So we have lots of choices as to a research path. Neither are scientific..All of this tempts me to pursue the Writing to Philosphy gambit, thinking to trade Writing for Iron Working and Polytheism and taking Monarchy as the Philsophy benefit (assuming we get there before any other nation).

In between all this musing switch the temple build at Ugarit to a worker, and swap citizens around at the home towns to boost output and protect growth (moving the citizen at Hasttusas to the mined tile and the citizen at Tarsus to the wheat) start a granary in Hattusas, and let Tarsus finish its worker.

Set research to Writing at 20% (50turns).

1-2510
Found Riverbend at...riverbend. Start barracks. Worker moves to road the game tile. Scout and warriors start boxing the compass. Conscript in the far north finds another village. With the extra commerce from the new town crank up the research to 100%, Writing now due in 26. Hattusas grows and the new citizen gets assigned to the irrigated plains. This is going to take some fiddling to get the granary on growth to match up. Granary in 14, growth in seven.

Tarsus builds it worker and it too starts a granary

2-2470BC Northern warrior greets the friendly Bantu who donate maps. His next move will be due east to the coast and then homeward. Worker from Tarsus heads to the forest for a little lumberjacking. I was smoking wacky tabaccy when I assigned the worker at Hattusas to roading. He should be chopping trees too.

3-2430
Meet a Ghuzz conscript in the near north. Warrior heads south towards home.

Meet a Russian (scientific and expansionist with a late MA UU that is a stone killer requiring saltpeter and horses) on a vector towards Ugarit and India. Hope Catherine is disposed to be friendly as her warrior is four turns closer to Ugarit than the warrior I have inbound. She has gold but no knowledge to trade. I don't like trading away Alphabet and Masonry yet but may have to soon as the Russians will meet the Indians.

And her warior moves away from Ugarit and the Indian town, which appears to be the only one. The Ghuzz barbarian moves northward away from the scouting warrior.

4-2390
Continue exploring north, west and east.

5-2350
Continue exploring and find the Russian border in the really far west, with a warrior settler pair ready to move east.

6-2310
Explore some more

7-2270
Exploring. Forest chop puts ten shields toward the granary at Tarsus and reveals a BG. Worker starts a mine.

Russians pop a hut and learn Masonry.

8-2230

We do the same in the north and collect more gold...

Tarsus grows and the lux tax goes to 10% but the new citizen pulls in enough gold to offset the increase. New citizen is put to work on the game forest and growth will now come in seven and the granary in 5. Worker at Hattusas finshes road and moves to forest outside Tarsus.

9-2190
Japan has learned Mysticism.

10-2150
The scout in the north has found a yellow border to his east. The warrior in the west is tracing the Russian border. The warriors north of the homeland are scoping the coast and heading home.

Riverbend will grow in one just as an MP arrives.

Granary at Tarsus will finish in ~10 turns with some help from growth, lumberjacking and a mine. Fiddle with the citizen assignments so that the growth happens after the granary build. Hattusas is on course to complete its granary in 3 and grow in five. When the granaries finish at both cities, train a worker at each, then set Hattusas to producing a settler. Time the worker to the population growth. The worker at Hattusas should start the needed development towards a settler farm. The workers at Tarsus should start improving the ground to support five productive citizens. The sixth can go fishing. As we get closer to writing try adjusting the science budget downwards so as not to waste gold. Also the lux slider will have to go up as Tarsus and Hattusas grow so the waste of gold is self-limiting. And the production of a worker first will relieve the upward pressure on the lux tax.

The objectives of the worker team should be to develop terrain as citizens become available to work it, don't bother to develop terrain before a citizen is available to work it.

The Russian settler team planted Novgorod due east of the Russian borders.

A note on trading: don't be too eager. If the deal isn't rich enough let it go. Only make a trade when you have something to trade for it down the line, in other words if you need gold to close a deal for knowledge find another party to make a deal with to acquire the gold, then do the deal, then move on the third, and the fourth, trading tech for tech, try not to trade knowledge only for gold. Don't sweat it if we are third to learn something, we know enough people that the others don't that trading at fourth and fifth will be very profitable. To get an approximation of tech value you can crank the science budget up to 100%, then multiply the science expense in the F1 screen by the turns required. This will give you a starting point for negotiation, but you will always pay more than that for a monopoly technology. (I forget what the factor is at Monarch just that it is more.) Remember the other guys won't call you if they have something to sell, if they run into you in the forest they might put something on offer but it is usually not to your advantage, so check in every turn. Persistence pays.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/CLive1_2150.png

EDIT: nevermind

You know, there's an easier way Bede.

Something I found recently that I have found immensely helpful is a neat little tool Grey Fox calls his TechCalc. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=38631)

Got it. I'll probably play tomorrow. I'll need some suggestions in the meantime :) .

@Sesn,

Right you are, and I use it occasionally. But I'm so used to running numbers in my head and I'm looking at the F1 screen all the time anyway....and I can auto minimize while TechCalc doesn't. :D

@viper,
Explore, make more friends, prevent disorder (use the lux slider), keep the citizens working improved terrain. Riverbend needs improvements, roads and irrigation, irrigate the wheat at Tarsus and mine the bonus grass.

Check for trade opportunities every turn, but don't give give anything away and don't buy a monopoly tech unless it is something we really need and have trading opportunities.

When the warriors get back home put them to MP duty.

Tarsus and Hattusas don't need more than six tiles improved each as they should be on worker/settler duty. At Riverbend, irrigate the wheat, mine the sugar, irrigate one plains and mine one, assign citizens to riverside terrain first.

@Sesn,
Can you do a worker farm table for Tarsus like the settler farm table you did for Hattusas. I can never get those things right....

You got it, Bede.

In order to get a 2 turn worker factory, you'll need both a harbor and granary.

To get a 2 turn factory, you'll need 5f and 5s surplus per turn.

Irrigated wheat - 4f
Fish w/harbor - 3f
Mined BG (x2) - 4f, 4s
City center - 2f, 1s

You would need 13f and 5 shield per turn to get your surplus of 5 each.


I also messed around with this to see what could be done to avoid the harbor for now.

You could do as well as a three turn worker factory at size 2. You will still need the granary.

Irrigated wheat - 4f
Mined BG - 2f, 2s
City square - 2f, 1s

Totals of 8f and 3s each turn. Your two citizens eat 4 food per turn.
Surplus of four food per turn = 3 turns to growth. (two extra)
Surplus of 3s per turn for three turns = 9s PLUS the two you get on growth fpr the citizen that will be placed in the forest.

Either way, once it starts, just queue up a half dozen workers and forget about it. No citizens will have to be moved.

For the current situation, I would recommend the second version. That way you can also build a settler(or two) to shrink it down once the granary comes in. The first way will take you what - 20+ turns to build the harbor?

NIce set of turns Bede .

I am learning more all the time (which was the point of starting this .
thread :) )

Got back too late to read all this in detail last night and am just about to leave for work but will hopefully be able to absorb all the info tonight.

Given only a quick glance at the posts it looks like we are in pretty goodd shape :)

You just need 4 shields for worker factory, as long as the 2 from working a forest isn't corrupted. Much safer to go with 5 though :)

Three turn workers in about 10 turns is better than 2 turn workers in 30+. Version 2 it should be.

Well, I played my turns.
Turn 1 2110 BC
I meet Egypt, the yellow border to the north. We're up Masonry, Alphabet, Mysticism, and The Wheel. I don't trade, they only have 10 gold. Warriors are returning home, exploration continues.
Turn 2 2070 BC
Nothing special happened here, I keep exploring and warriors return home.
Turn 3 2030 BC
Workers finish old improvements, begin new ones. Explore, bring home warriors for MP.
Turn 4 1990 BC
A warrior to the northwest comes across an Arabic scout. We have a tech lead of Masonry, Mysticism, Alphabet, and The Wheel. They're broke, probably from trading with other AIs.
Turn 5 1950 BC
Hattusas is now size 4, begin Settler factory routine. More worker action. Warriors are basically home now.
Turn 6 1910 BC
Nothing new, just a little exploration.
Turn 7 1870 BC
Just about every warrior that should be home is home. Not much else happened.
Turn 8 1830 BC
Hattusas into civil disorder, I should have kept the happiness a bit better there... Sorry! Turned science down to 70% because of the maintnence of the Granary at Tarsus and Riverbend's barracks.
Turn 9 1790 BC
Order restored in Hattusas, kept exploring.
Turn 10 1750 BC
Settler built in Hattusas. Kept exploring, traded Mysticism, Alphabet, and 2 gold for Iron Working with Egypt.

I'm amazed how much I'm learning from this SG. There's just something different from reading about it and doing it.

I got it. I'll play it soon, so I can have any tips necessary :D

I just realized how much my warmongering skills improved since I signed up. In my story, I just eliminated a civ that was the same size as me just to prepare myself.

Viper - you didn't note where the sources of iron were available, if at all.

Also, it's much easier for us lurkers (especially lurkers at work ;) ) to keep up if you post screenies...

Edit: also, to keep order in Hattusas, you need five content faces. The first two citizens are born content, add two MP's, and put luxury at 10%. If you have a luxury connected, you won't even need the 10%.

Oh, I forgot about the good part: there is Iron right next to Riverbend and one just outside of the borders of Hattusas.

Screenshot:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/clive1screenshot1750bc.jpg

Riverbend has cattle and iron...and a river!

EDIT: And it also has sugar in its workable tiles.

You know, you get a library and granary built in Riverbend, you can have a second settler factory. Although you wouldn't have any units to defend the settlers with...

Well done on the trade for Iron Working. Is there anybody else we can pass it on to?

Note on trading strategy: Try to trade when you have at least one another trade available, either technology or cash, preferably technology. Patience and persistence pays. If at least two somebodies beat you to a key tech it makes it cheaper to buy. Then you can pass it on down the chain. Pioneers are the guys with the arrows in their chests. The forty-niners who found the gold were not the ones who prospered, most died drunk and broke, or drunk, or broke. The guys who made the real money sold them the shovels and the whiskey.

Notes on cash flow: don't worry about mantaining positve cash flow when you have enough in the bank to cover the period of time remaining on the research project. That is also another self-limiting problem at this stage of the game. As Riverbend grows and its terrain gets improved the cash flow willl rise. Besides we don't have anything to spend it on, given that we have the lead in technology and I don't see a massive warrior to sword upgrade in our near future. Were that necessary I would just turn off science completely till we had the force needed then turn the Bunsen burners up.

@Sesn,
With the fish at Tarsus do we still need to irrigate the wheat?

@MSTK,
Paste a copy of Sesn's settler/worker farm tables on your monitor and follow them. Stay in contact with every nation we know, with a sharp eye for increases/decreases in cash or new knowledge. If somebody learns something we could use, look for a third party to broker it off to. Keep a sharp eye out for Polytheism as we will need it for the Philosophy to Moanrchy gambit to work, but you don't have to buy it at monopoly prices.

The settler on the move should pick up an escort at Riverbend and move to the westernmost dot in scout's map to claim the silks. The next should move to the dot that claims the horses. Keep the worker from Ugarit roading south.

If somebody makes a demand, pay him/her. And we do have at least one militaristic nation on our borders.

Lastly, if you encounter a troubling situation, post a save bring it back to the team. There are three really good advisors (Sesn, scout and Doc) who monitor the thread and give good advice.

Have fun!!

You know, you get a library and granary built in Riverbend, you can have a second settler factory. Although you wouldn't have any units to defend the settlers with...

:lol: You as bad as I am. Good thing you and scout are advising and not playing. We would end up with a warmongering culture monster!!!

Sesn, we could try a farmer's gambit, though with the Japanese and Russians to our west...(one expansionist, the other militaristic).

mtgfreak -
Sir Clive -
Bede -
Viper275 - Just Played
MSTK - Posted got it
Admiral Kutzov - In the wings

Great to see you got the iron and we have plentiful iron nearby.

Any idea where our next city should go team ? I suppose it would make sense to get the horses hooked up soon.

Given that we have the iron and horses I can't see too much need to go to war early. Presumably we can afford to wait until we have switched governments then we can avoid triggering a despotic GA with our UU.

I presume we will just build military out of Riverbend, settlers out of Hattusus and workers out of Tarsus .We're going to need a few MP if we want to get the luxury slider down.

Looks like we should be up for a few turns of trying to grap as much land as possible and keep the AI happy so they don't declare.

As we are way ahead in tech I suppose we could get the Great LIbrary if we wanted it but as we are so ahead there may not be much point

For discussion:
1. colony to 1 (silks)
2. city (2nd barracks?)
3. city - work towards spices to NW?

Are we better off going warriors to swords now that we have nearby iron? Taking out Japanese should be quick? Are we still going to chariots (to later upgrade?)

After taking out Japanese, we could build city near silks without fear of invasion.

Note: first try at dotmap. thanks to sesn

if we go to swords to attack Japan, we avoid GA due to UU

3. city - work towards spices to NW?

Are we better off going warriors to swords now that we have nearby iron? Taking out Japanese should be quick? Are we still going to chariots (to later upgrade?)

if we go to swords to attack Japan, we avoid GA due to UU

Re 3 - presume you mean the incense , not spices ?

We should be able to finish off Japan with swords or archers (In my last game I produced a stack of about 6 archers which managed to capture 4 or 5 towns early on in the game.

you're correct. i always mix them up

@Sesn,
With the fish at Tarsus do we still need to irrigate the wheat?


The problem with the fish is that it's little better than grassland w/o a harbor. Fish give two bonus food, minus the despot penalty, brings you back to two. (Coast gives one food and two commerce) The only benefit is the extra gold.

Well, I'm going to play now.
Last-minute tips?

"The settler on the move should pick up an escort at Riverbend and move to the westernmost dot in scout's map to claim the silks. The next should move to the dot that claims the horses. Keep the worker from Ugarit roading south."

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/scouts_dotmap-for_clive.jpg

Those are locations 3 and 4a on scout's map.

The coastal regions can be filled at our leisure but we need to settle out toward the NW soonest for the silk and the ponies as Bede wants to ride in a chariot in silk pajamas hurling curses and javelins at the Japanese and Russians.

(I think I did horrible. I was so undecided on many things, and I was never thinking ahead more than twenty turns :()

Pre-Turn
AI Statistics
The Russians have 68 Gold and are down Alphabet and Iron Working. Japan has 44 and are down Masonry and Iron Working. Egypt has only 12 gold, but is down only by The Wheel (they have Iron Working, and may trade it to other civs). IIRC, if they get the Wheel, then they can build their UU. India has no Gold, and are down Iron Working and Mysticism. We have every known tech.
Everyone but Egypt is down Iron Working, so we may have to give them something in order to prevent Egypt from getting thier gold. But Iron Working is very valuable, so Egypt may hesitate.
However, each of them are down either Alphabet, Mysticism, the Wheel, and Masonry. I'm not sure what to say about this, other than all of the AI can trade for simple techs easily, because if they don't have it, three other AIs do.
City Statistics
All cities but Hattusas are "Conent", with Hattusas having 1 happy. Ugarit looks strange, so far out there and with a solid civ in between it and the capital. Hattasus will expand culturally in 10 turns, but it doesn't really matter.


TURN 1 (1725 BC)
IBT
- Gandhi researches Iron Working! Or maybe he got it from Egypt. This seems likely, because India is the closest civ to Egypt.
Turn
- Assign Ugarit worker to start building road towards our main cities.
- Northwest scout sees Arab Warrior (scouting?). Arabs are down Masonry, Alphabet, The Wheel, and Iron Working. They have 2 Gold. No trades made. Continue sending warrior north to find Arab borders.
- Western Warrior moves along coast
- Settler sent towards Location 3
- Ack! Can't find Bonus Grassland to mine at Hattusas! Send worker to build roard to Riverbend, then Iron.
- East Warrior goes home for MP
- Scout proceeds and finds far eastern coastline. Looks like we are on a horseshoe continent.

TURN 2 (1725 BC)
IBT
- Arabs have 27 Gold! A bit strange considering that they had 2 Gold last turn. They are probably conducting deals with someone we do not know, because all other treasuries are constant.
Turn
- Tarsus Worker -> Settler. Move laborer from wheat (being roaded) to roaded bonus grassland to maximize production. Worker goes to bring freshwater to irrigate the wheat near Tarsus.
- Re-arrange laborers in Riverbend to create Spearmen soon enough to coincide with Settler.
- Add entertainer to Hattusas to prevent disorder.

TURN 2 (1675 BC)
IBT
Nothing
Turn
- Worker roading Wheat finishes. Goes to build road to Iron and Cattle
- Southeast Warrior finds Goody Hut, who teachs us Horseback Riding.

TURN 3 (16?? BC) (Forgot to write down)
IBT
- Gandhi gets mad at Worker in his territoty. He still remains at Cautious.
Turn
- As predicted, Riverbend creats Spearman -> Granary just in time to escort Settler. Rearranged laborers to normal.


TURN 4 (1625 BC)
IBT
- Russian Scout found far north. Suspect they have contact with Arabs.
- Surprised Russia has not researched anything yet. They haven't gained any gold, so they probably have a high science budget. Will trade on Turn 5.
- Meh. Barbarians are squatting on our silk. Make no move to stop them, as they are not a bonus resource, but a luxury. They will move soon, and if they attack our Spearman, they will most likely loose.
Turn
- Hattusas Settler -> Spearman (for MP...that means Garrison, right?). Settler sent with Warrior to 4a, with Horses. Will arrive in eight turns. Seems a little too long.

TURN 5 (1600 BC)
IBT
- As expected, silk barbarian attacks Spearman. At least we can road the Silk, now.
- Discovered Writing -> Philosophy (hopefully for free tecdh). We are half an era above everyone else.
- Japanese warrior comes too close for comfort, but out of barriers.
- Egypt has 135 Gold! :wow: It's quite an accomplishment, because they had 12 Gold earlier. They have no new techs, though. Considering trading with them.
- India has 25 Gold! Before, they had 0. He is now Polite with us.
- Russia still has 68 Gold. Back off on trading techs. If they research another one, we can still take all their gold anyways.
Turn
- Arabic borders found.

TURN 6 (Forgot year)
IBT
- Egypt researches The Wheel! Give them Writing, because their treasury of 135 doesn't seem to get any higher. We are still up Horseback Riding.
- Russia still has only 68 Gold and no new techs. Russia also has a Worker in capital. Trade Alphabet for a Worker and 56 Gold (as high as they'll go). We are still up Horseback Riding.
Turn
- Silk Forests founded. Reveals Barbarian Camp. Start on Warrior to get rid of it.
- Southeast Warrior pops a Goody Hut for 50 Gold.
- Russian Worker sent to road Riverbend to Silk Forests, and hopefully the Silk.

TURN 7 (1550 BC)
IBT
- Accidentally leave troops in Arab borders. They are annoyed at us.
- Japan now has 56 Gold this turn and have moved up from 44. No deals made. I'm not sure when (I probably skiped over it), but they now have Masonry.
- Arabs lost 10 Gold and are now at 17.
- India gains 10 Gold and are now at 35. I'm guessing they traded with Arabs.
- Russia researches Horseback Riding.
- Japan tries to clear Barbarians near our borders for us. How nice. There is still 1 warrior and 1 horsemen there.
Turn
- Hattusas creates Spearman -> Barracks.
- Road continues to Riverbend.
- Can finally irrigate wheat near Tarsus
- Scout finds blue-ish borders. I'm colorblind, so I cannot tell.
- Warrior Scout arrives at Hattuasas. Moved to escort Tarsus's almost-complete Settler to Wines at location L.
- Add Entertainer to Hattusas to prevent Disorder.

TURN 8 (1525 BC)
IBT
Nothing
Turn
- Start irrigating Wheat near Tarsus
- Tarsus goes into Disorder! Oops...
- Blue-ish borders are Mayans. We are up Horseback Riding, Iron Working, and Alphabet. They have 12 Gold and 5 cities. No deals were made.

TURN 9 (1500 BC)
IBT
- Japan forces die while attacking Barbarian Horseman.
- Scout in Mayan Territory prompts removal.
- Mayans research Iron Working. It wasn't worth 12 Gold, anyways.
- Egypt jumped back from 0 all the way to 15.
Turn
- Ugarit Worker -> Settler to settle on Dyes. Worker sent to help build road south.
- Road to River Bend continues

TURN 10 (1475 BC)
IBT
Nothing
Turn
- Road to Sugar completed. Start irrigating.
- River Bend goes into Disorder. Again, oops.
- Tarsus Settler -> Worker. Sent Settler to different point by accident. It was too far away from L, anyways.

End-Dynasty Analysis
Japan: 56 Gold (Down Iron Working and Writing)
India: 35 Gold (Down Writing and Horseback Riding
Egypt: 25 Gold (Down Horseback Riding)
Arabia: 17 Gold (Down Alphabet, The Wheel, and Iron Working)
Maya: 12 Gold (Down Alphabet and Horseback Riding)
Russia: 0 Gold (Down Writing)
Workers are working on roads to Iron and Riverbend. Wheat will be irrigated soon, so both Hattusas and Tarsus have potentials to be Worker Factories.
Granary is a "prebuild" if anyone wants to change it.

You know, you get a library and granary built in Riverbend, you can have a second settler factory. Although you wouldn't have any units to defend the settlers with...You can claim that other cow if you settle the site due SW of Riverbend...You as bad as I am. Good thing you and scout are advising and not playing. We would end up with a warmongering culture monster!!!Lemme guess, I'm the kul-cher monsta? :p Bede wants to ride in a chariot in silk pajamas hurling curses and javelins at the Japanese and Russians.:rotfl:
I honestly think I could have lived the rest of this evening without experiencing the vision that came with reading that. :dubious: At least the evening was good... good company at one of my favorite haunts... tasty fish dip and "southern fried" gator tail on the shore of the same lake that the gator once lived in... though "southern fried" seems rather redundant; the northern-most point I've ever seen an alligator was off the coast of Beaufort, South Carolina....but I digress badly.

Some advice: pump an occasional settler out of Riverbend; 3 or 4 settlers out of there will really help with the land grab/infill settling. If you settle that site SW of Riverbend, you can claim that other horse and possibly start a second settler pump...

:thumbsup:

Good progress.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/clyde1475.jpg

(I think I did horrible. I was so undecided on many things, and I was never thinking ahead more than twenty turns :()

- Arabs have 27 Gold! A bit strange considering that they had 2 Gold last turn. They are probably conducting deals with someone we do not know, because all other treasuries are constant.


Having read your turnlog it looks like you did fine. I would have certainly been happy with with how you ended up !

Re Arabs going from 2 -> 27 gold, could they have got the 25g from a goody hut ?

I'll post some more detailed comments later today when I have downloaded the save and looked at it in more detail but looks like we are still in good shape.

Re being colour blind - if you click the main menu button at the top left and choose preferences there is an option 'Colour blind help'. I don't know whether you were aware of it. I don't know what it does since I have not had need to use it (not being colour blind) but it might help !

Amended roster -

mtgfreak - In the wings
Sir Clive -
Bede -
Viper275 -
MSTK - Just played
Admiral Kutzov - Up next

Colour blind help puts up who owns a city on the screen, ie: Washington (American). I usually play with it on to easily spot captured cities.

I'm not sure why you built a warrior and then a barracks in Hattusas?

Hattusas is the settler pump, and should be churning either 4 turn settlers, or 2 turn workers exclusively. If you need MP's, build them elsewhere....

The plan is to run Hattusas for settlers, Tarsus for workers and Riverbend for military, with the occasional settler/worker for growth control.

In line with that plan the sugar at Riverebend should be mined, not irrigated, as the irrigated feedlot gives enough food for a reasonable growth rate.

@AdmK,
You won't go wrong following the settlement order in scouts dotmap posted on previous page.

i got it. plan on playing tonight.

ok to use crpmapstat?

One of the best tools in the kit, and is considered spoiler-safe by the GOTM crowd.

Irrigating the Sugar is useless in Despotism, btw.

Judging from the map, I would advice against an early war against Japan. Get more cities and Monarchy, and then use your UU for the only thing it is really great: Far away fighting. India looks like a prime target. Fighting Japan now seems like a waste of resources to me, a couple more cities and a well timed GA sound better (and you can easily fight Japan then as well :) )

The 3MC is not really an outstanding UU, but if used correctly, it can be quite good: No need for slow defenders, just overrun everyone in reach.

Pretty sure Ugarit will have Oil...

India looks like a prime target. Fighting Japan now seems like a waste of resources to me, a couple more cities and a well timed GA sound better (and you can easily fight Japan then as well :) )

The 3MC is not really an outstanding UU, but if used correctly, it can be quite good: No need for slow defenders, just overrun everyone in reach.



I must admit Doc that I was also going to suggest fighting India first rather than Japan. This was based on the fact that (as I said in my original post) I am not good at warfare and with Japanese being militaristic India would presumably be the easier target (Yeah - what's wrong with being a coward? :) )

However what worries me about that is that if we are moving troops north for an attack against India we are going to have make sure we leave enough troops to defend the South in case of an attack from Japan (or someone else)

I'm looking at the screenie and the discussion, and a couple of thoughts come to mind:

* Why is Hattusas building a Barracks?

* Is this a standard map, or large? There seems to be an awful lot of land to be grabbed, and I'm wondering if we might want to loosen up city placement once the core is established; I think you guys will hit the OCN pretty quickly.

* Ugarit needs culture. It's a flip risk.

* Roading to the silks should be a priority

* Irrigate the cow at Riverbend.

Don't wait too long to war with Japan; Japan and India both Have UUs that come with Chivalry and are a handful (War Elephants get an extra hp in C3C). If you're going to take these guys out, you need to do it before the MA. The terrain isn't too bad for 3MCs, though you'll need to watch the marsh v. India and the mountains v. Japan.

Have a look at that 3-BG site south of Riverbend in my Dotmap. Units built there could go to Riverbend to meet settlers from Hattusas...and then depart...

I'm looking at the screenie and the discussion, and a couple of thoughts come to mind:

* Why is Hattusas building a Barracks?

* Is this a standard map, or large? There seems to be an awful lot of land to be grabbed, and I'm wondering if we might want to loosen up city placement once the core is established; I think you guys will hit the OCN pretty quickly.

...

I would agree re Hattusas. This my first time having used a settler factory but as far as I understand it the settler factory should just pump out settlers for as long as there is still land to be settled. I do agree we need another town which can pump out veterans ASAP but presumably that should not be Hattasus. We need to decide where it should be.

Re map size - it is a large map.

Uagrit . Silks , Cow advice all seem very sensible !

@Sir Clive: You've got it on the settler pump. Make settlers until there is no more land to grab. Build the units somewhere else.

Re map size - it is a large map.@Bede: Have you got an OCN referency handy? Can this tighter build still work on a larger map? (Does the OCN go up proportionately?)

You guys have probably figured out by now that I'm sorry I missed this one, and that Bede and I play well off each other. If you guys think Bede is strong now, just wait until this game matures. He is a master at city and empire management. I'm more of a... tactician. (Is that putting it politely enough Brother Bede?)

=scoutsoutYou guys have probably figured out by now that I'm sorry I missed this one, and that Bede and I play well off each other.

This is my first SG despite having lurked for quite a long time in this area of Civfanatics. I don't have the time to do more than 1 SG at a time but I am already keen to do another once this is finished . Whether it will be Regent , Monarch or Emperor depends on how well this one goes I guess ! Hopefully we can all get together in the next game !

Scout - the OCN does increase proportionally, but I can't find the actual value at the moment. The easiest way is to check the editor (not sure where though). Since I'm at work that is an impossibilty for me.

And what? I don't get a classification? :p

Hope I’ve followed the plan. Got some unexpected free time, so I played this morning.

1450 (1) worker & settler move SW of Tarsus in completion of a goto order. Hattasus builds settler. Riverbend builds spearman. Silk Forest builds warrior.

1425 (2) Russia is building the Colossus. OK Corral & Aleppo founded. Our Arabian Expeditionary Warrior killed by horseman barb.

1400 (3) Tarsus builds worker

1375 (4) Spearman wipes out barb camp near Silk Forest. Japan learns Iron Working. I’m concerned Egypt and Maya are getting close. Trade Alphabet to Maya for 37g & to Arabia for 42g. Everyone else has Alphabet.

1350 (5) Nothing significant. Continuing the road from Ugarit.

1325 (6) Hattasus builds settler. Tarsus builds worker. Silk Forest builds warrior. Start barracks in Aleppo.

1300 (7) OK Corral builds warrior.

1275 (8) Riverbend builds spearman.

1250 (9) Iron connected. Tarsus builds worker.

1225 (10) Research on Philosophy completed. Obtain Polytheism as bonus.

Egypt is polite, has 5 cities, 50g. We’re ahead HR, Phil & Polytheism. Maya are cautious, have 5 cities, 25g. We’re ahead writing and polytheism. India is polite, 5 cities - we have HR, writing and polytheism to trade to them. Japan is annoyed (and was for my entire ten turns). I never violated their territory. They have 5 cities, 56g. We can trade them writing, polytheism. Arabia has 6 cities, zero gold. They’re cautious. They need wheel, writing, iron working, polytheism. Russia went from cautious to annoyed. They have five cities, zero gold. We have writing and polytheism to trade to them.

Not sure I managed the settler & worker factories correctly. Built spearmen instead of warriors for defense in case of attack from Japan/Russia. Nearing completion of roads to silks and horses. Didn’t see any better use for Aleppo, so I started 2nd barracks.

Spearman/settler are heading for the wines so Bede can shout drunken curses from his chariot in his silk pjs when we attack Japan.

Here's the map

Not sure I managed the settler & worker factories correctly.

The worker factory looks correct, but you should have produced settlers on turns 1, 5, and 9. Instead you got settlers on turns 1 and 6. Not sure what went wrong there. Can you post a pic of the city screen?

Otherwise, things look good. Was poly the most expensive tech available when philo came in?

EDIT: nevermind the city screen pic. Whoever is up next needs to MM Hattusas to get the growth to size 6 and settler on the same turn. Can probably just change one citizen.

EDIT2: looks like moving the citizen from the wheat on plains to a forest would probably do it....

And what? I don't get a classification? :p:lol: I'm workin' on it. EOC2 was a blast... didn't meant to slight you at all... I just have a "slightly" better feel for Bede's play than yours at this point.

Aside from comparing notes on a couple of GsOTM, a few more SGs than you and I have finished together - I followed Bede in Bede1. I got to see the results of his city-management first hand. I remember one turnset that I did a lot of MMing (a few turns AFTER Bede had handed it off). We were trying to get a bunch of courts an police stations built before going commie (and also trying to finish Hoover, Sufferage, and fight a war... :rolleyes: )

When I got that game back we were in Communism, and the cities were a sight to see. That empire was fine-tuned like you would not believe. It was profound. Cities were producing exactly the number of shields needed to produce the units in the queue in the optimal number of turns...very little waste. Probably one of the biggest factors in setting us up to smack the AI around like you would not believe. If you thought "losing Hannibal's capitol" in EOC2 was amazing/amusing... don't read the endgame in Bede1.

Here's one example of just how outrageous it got: I sacked Thebes in pre-flight on my last turnset.

Amended roster -

mtgfreak - Up next
Sir Clive - In the wings
Bede -
Viper275 -
MSTK -
Admiral Kutzov - Just played

Nice to see we seem to be sitting within the 24hr gotit / 48 hr play schedule comfortably . No doubt it will get a little more difficult once we go to war !

Looks like good ol' mtg is next. We finally made our first loop!

EDIT: It looks like 15 turns worth of 3MC should be able to take out India pretty easily.

Sorry for the double post, but I noted that somebody posted a turnlog while I was reminiscing past conquests with Bede and Sesn...

Thoughts: looking at the log and the screenie, I suspect one or two more tile improvements are needed at Hattusas to get the settler pump working on auto-pilot.

Are you guys familiar with the mechanics of micromanaging cities, or do you want me to post a link to that block of instruction from GK2?

@Admiral: Good call on the Rax in Aleppo, and sending a settler pair for a grab at the wines was a good call. I follow the logic of spears over warriors, but don't overlook the value of Archers. The defensive bombard of an archer is powerful in conquests, and gives you something to counter with.

I like spears a little more than temples... but not much. I'll let Sesn tell you how much I like temples. He and I have ... discussed... that with someone in another SG we're in together.

Something to consider: If you guys have iron, upgrade a few warriors and send 'em barb hunting for gold and promotion. (Yes, even the conscript). Take a vet and send him to that city up there by India.

Thoughts: looking at the log and the screenie, I suspect one or two more tile improvements are needed at Hattusas to get the settler pump working on auto-pilot.


I'm not sure that's accurate. The pump was working, but it qwas interrupted by a spear build or something. I think it just needs to be synchronized and then it can keep pumping.

I think 15 turns worth of 3MC is able to wipe out India...but I'm not a good warmongerer, so I'm not exactly sure.
India seems to only have a few cities, and from what we've seen, they're not defended by more than 2 spearmen. A force of about 7-10 3MC and one or two artillery should be able to take them off the map...and eliminate culture flipping risk on Ugarit.

??? What do you think?

@sesn - poly was 26 turns - everything else was less (i think).

@sir clive - I only have time for a single game at a time, but I'd also like to play in the next

@scout - agree on archers, but i was scared to build in case a stack of 10 Japanese swords appeared on the horizon. always like to upgrade warriors to swords!

im rather busy today, so if clive wants to go now, or just wait until tomorrow

It's 19-00 UK time , I'm just watching the end of the 3rd round of The Open golf and then I'm out for the evening so I'll probably be too late / drunk to play tonight :)

So mtgfreak - you go ahead whenever you are ready . I'll play whenever you are done .

:( Nobody listens to me :cry:

:thumbsup: :rockon:

Nicely done, Admiral.

Re Optimal City Number (OCN):
It goes up 15% from Standard to Large for Non-commercial civs and ~50% for Commercial.

@MSTK: I'm not sure quite what you mean by 15 turns of 3MC's. India as a potential target makes sense, but you'll need to take a good look at the terrain. Those marshes will be impenetrable to 3MCs. If Ghandi is good enough to build some roads through the marshes, you may be able to launch from Ugarit and sweep SE through India. Towards Japan, you've got some hills and mountains to contend with, though it looks like there are some gaps you could work through. Key to warmongering is putting the pieces in place and in motion long before you actually engage the enemy.

Waht have you got in mind for a scheme of maneuver?

@MSTK,
Patience, grasshopper. It looks like you got caught in the post crossfire.

Now for a little philosophy:
Quoth scout:
"Key to warmongering is putting the pieces in place and in motion long before you actually engage the enemy."

That is definitely the key to warfare, but you also need the lock: What is the objective?

Right now we control resources and luxuries sufficient unto our needs. We also have useful trading partners. We have the cash to do research. There is lots of productive land to settle. scout can probably find the appropriate quotation from the Chinese Master that addresses the issue (he the man), but let me put it this way:

Bede says "He that knows his purpose in war has already won the first battle"

If we are going to war with Japan , would it make sense to settle on one of the grassland tiles 3-4 east of Osaka before going to war ? Silk Forests / OK Corral don't seem to have enough natural protection and it would be nice if we could arrange troops so that we could funnell all potential attackers away from our core. If we took the square 2E, 1S, 1E from Osaka we have a single grassland square to the west which our 3MCs could pass through. We should be able to park a few untis on the mountains around that area which will get the 100% defensive bonus from the terrain.
Whatever we do I think we still need to build some more military before we consider war with Japan.

Are we going to declare on them , or do we have any way of forcing them to declare on us ? At the moment they don't have any troops in our territory as far as I can see so we can't try to provoke them into delaring by asking them to leave our territory.

Since you're still in despotism, there's really no need to make them declare on you. Declaringon them is fine, just so long as it is done honorably.

I think the first thing that must be done is to reach a consensus on who you are going to attack. After that, the specific logistics can be hammered out.

Bede - what is the goal, you ask? To have one less rival, of course! :hammer:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/warplan.png

This is a simple war plan. Is it okay?

EDIT: Tactical Analysis
The first thing I tought of was to go Calcuttta -> Madras -> Delhi -> Bombay in a linear fashion with 3-Man Chariots. However, Madras is in a sticky situation. There is absolutely no way to get there unless you buld a road, and by then, India would have expanded too much for an easy conquest.
And so, because we have one of the only sources of Iron, we should build up an efficient army of Swordsmen, as well. The Swordsmen could go with the Chariots in the Bombay -> Delhi chain, and then go ahead while the 3MC stop. However, that is very inneficient, requiring way too many individual steps. So, I thought, "What if we split them up, and move in from both ends?"
So, the Swordsmen would go Calcuttta -> Madras -> Delhi -> Bombay while the 3MC go Bombay -> Delhi -> Madras -> Calcutta. Since the 3MC can't go beyond Delhi, they would wait until the Swordsmen come to Delhi, and then attack together for better chances of victory.

No GA in Despotism. Never. ;)
My 5c.

No GA in Despotism. Never. ;)
My 5c.

Oh yeah. Good point.

But it's the risk you take when you are getting such an early UU.

The war plan is sound, IMHO (but scout, DocT and Sesn are better judges than I) but let's look at the economics and the time to market.

I know swords cost 30 shields, or 60 gold pieces per to upgrade warriors, What's the cost of the Chariot?

Just for dissussion's sake call it 30, then we are looking at 360 shields worth of production, or 240 shields and 360g, or some combination of that. Our top three producers are now making about 12 shields per turn distributed 5, 4, 3. So we have 30 turns of production and that would require taking Hattusas and Tarsus off-line from settler/worker production. In that time frame the two towns could build ~7 settlers and 15 workers.

What I'm getting at here is that the gain from taking out India could be less than the cost in terms of lost production, future towns, and workers. Right now India has four cities we can see, and by the time we are ready to go to war with them willl have a few more, but not as many as we could produce and make productive in the same time frame.

So war with India, definitely, and Japan as well. But of the three closest I have a greater concern with Russia. They are scientific and expansionist, IIRC, and therefore represent a greater long term threat than either India or Japan.

My conclusion: prepare for war but concentrate now on having more, and more productive, towns than the neighbors. Then when you do go to war it will be short, sharp and decisive.

A detail: towns with barracks but no connection to the iron should build warriors rather than spear. You can build warriors in a 2:1 ratio to spears, they upgrade to swordsmen, and two warriors in a garrison is better than a single spear. And at this stage with lots of land available yet, the AI won't attack a defended town with a settler escort of a single spear. When they start escorting them with two swordsmen you can start worrying.

@Bede: The issues and concerns you raise are excellent. MSTK was answering a question that I asked regarding scheme of maneuver, accounting for the fact that you can't use the 3MCs in marshland. I think he did pretty good in that little exercise.

@Team: Bede is right, it's a little early to seriously prepare for war. When the time (and the opponent) is more clear, it will be time for seriously planning. I suspect that the direction and magnitude in which Russia and/or India and/or Japan expand will have a lot to do with who you guys target first.

Yeah, I guess it will be very costly...

Maybe, when we gain 10+ Swordsmen without even thinking about a war, then we should attack. By that time, Medieval Infantry should be just around the corner.

Since you're still in despotism, there's really no need to make them declare on you. Declaringon them is fine, just so long as it is done honorably.

I think the first thing that must be done is to reach a consensus on who you are going to attack. After that, the specific logistics can be hammered out.

:

I realise that declaring honorably wil not affect our rep. However I was thinking about war-weariness. As stated before I am a bit of a coward and I try to avoid war therefore I very rarely wage war before getting out of despotism unless I am attacked.

When I do wage war I try to get the AI to declare on me as I believe this reduces war weariness (in fact I think you get extra hapiness in Monarchy, Communism and maybe some others).

You say 'Since you're still in despotism' SesnOfWthr - I presume this means we don't get any benefit from being the defender rather than the aggressor in despotism ? That is something I wasn't aware of.

So war with India, definitely, and Japan as well. But of the three closest I have a greater concern with Russia. They are scientific and expansionist, IIRC, and therefore represent a greater long term threat than either India or Japan.

My conclusion: prepare for war but concentrate now on having more, and more productive, towns than the neighbors. Then when you do go to war it will be short, sharp and decisive.

.

I agree Bede that we need to concentrate on more productivity before we got to war. I hadn't really considered :hammer: against Russia but now it has been mentioned it looks very attractive . We only have to deal with 2 or 3 size 1 towns and then we should be able to occupy the 2 tile choke point West of Novgorod which will avoid the Russians being able to counter attack our western cities by land. We should also be able to grab the 2 elephants which should be useful.

I realise that declaring honorably wil not affect our rep. However I was thinking about war-weariness. As stated before I am a bit of a coward and I try to avoid war therefore I very rarely wage war before getting out of despotism unless I am attacked.

When I do wage war I try to get the AI to declare on me as I believe this reduces war weariness (in fact I think you get extra hapiness in Monarchy, Communism and maybe some others).


IIRC, war weariness is an issue in Republic, Feudalism, and Democracy, but not in Monarchy, Communism and Fascism.


You say 'Since you're still in despotism' SesnOfWthr - I presume this means we don't get any benefit from being the defender rather than the aggressor in despotism ? That is something I wasn't aware of.

In Despotism I think the population is indifferent (no war weariness, no war happiness)

On timing, the window for an early rush has closed, but the next window is half open. In the interim 20 turns or so keep pumping settlers and workers out of Tarsus and Hattusas, swords then chariots from Riverbend, warriors in towns with barracks but no connection to the iron, then swords when they connect.

Once we have learned Monarchy, establish embassies with India, Russia, Japan, and whoever is on the other side of India and Japan, then revolt into Monarchy, during the anarchy move troops into position against the target, and once the government changes, charge!!!! As an option, make alliances with the nation on the other side of the target and any other whom they know.

During the resulting GA build expensive improvements in back-line towns, reinforcements and garrisons for the captured cities in towns closer to the front, overwhelm the enemy, reach your objective, and make peace, or go into a holding action if you have made any allies until the alliances expire.

There is a problem with this plan, however, as the GA will then be spent in warfare.

Not trying to drown any victory parades just trying to make sure all the consequences of any plan are thoroughly considered.

Sounds like a good plan Bede !

It seems to me that many people head for Republic rather than Monarchy as their first post-despotic gov. However if we are going to be at war soon it clearly makes sense to be in Monarchy.

Have we decided who our favoured target is yet ? I vote for :hammer: against Russia at the moment but I guess that might change after the next set of turns.

We are only one tech away from Monarchy, I think, and maybe two from Republic. And in C3C there are troop cost implications in Republic which are more severe than Monarchy. When you add the war-weariness of Republic to the troop cost, the added commerce in Republic is offset to some degree. Though as a commercial civ the reduced corruption level may offset the added troop cost if you have enough cities...

One of the things I really like about this game is the "balancing" required, offsetting the weaknesses with strengths. That is why if your early development is strong enough, there are no bad plans. The real error is not planning, or not considering all the implications.

As far as who we'll declare war on, we might also want to take their UUs into consideration. India gets a War Elephant, 4/3/2 +1 HP, IIRC. That sounds scary. Japan gets the Samurai, 4/4/2. That's scary, too. And both of those units are coming fairly soon and cost the same as the unit they replace. Now look at Russia's UU. 6/3/3 and 90 shields, according to my Civ3QEditor. The only difference between the 2 is that the Cossack can blitz, which is helpful, but I don't think it's as helpful as the Samurai or War Elephant (and it's not the best time for a GA, for Russia, that is.) Edit: The other thing about attacking Russia now is that, like Japan, it's guarded by lots of mountains and hills, which will give our War Chariots a hard time. India doesn't look as bad.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't attack Russia, it sounds like a good plan. I'm saying that it could make our MA conquests of our nextdoor neighbors harder when they have their UUs (and their GA) and our UUs and GA are long gone. The order I'm thinking of attacking is India, Russia, then Japan. What I'm hoping for is that India will be gone or powerless when it's time for their UU, and we'll be at war with Russia when Japan has the Samurai, and we'll be better prepared for Japan's militaristic trait. Japan will probably still use their Samurai, but they won't be new to Japan anymore.

So, to attack India, MSTK's plan looks good. But before we do any of this, we need get Monarchy.

The thing about Samurai and War Elephants is that they come presumably late after the Hittie UU. Also, we are way far ahead in tech, so we can still build up a sum of Medieval Infantry and Knights before they make their first War Elephant or Samurai.

@Bede: Don't forget to teach these guys how to research in anarchy... :D

Actually, once you look at it, Russia and Japan are easier, yet India is a threat to Ugarit (culture-wise). If we just take out Bombay (guarded with Warriors) and Delhi (maybe slightly more), then the risks of culture-flipping are gone.

But...why am I making so much of a deal about culture flipping...? :confused:

Pre turn check: OK

Turn 1: Hattusas Settler->

IBT: Lahore founded SW of Bombay

Turn 2: Tarsus Worker-> Worker, see fireworks from volcano

Turn 3: moving around

Turn 4: Moving around

Turn 5: Vineyard founded near wines, set to build warrior

IBT: Silks connected

Turn 6: Tarsus Worker->Worker

IBT: Barb horseman kills both workers making a road from Ugarit. i really wish they didnt have 2 movement points, horses hooked up

Turn 7: Hattusas Settler->Settler, Silk forests Spearman-> Barracks, Ugarit switched to worker

Turn 8: Ugarit Worker->Worker, Riverbend Spearman-> Spearman, Ok Corral Spearman -> 3 man chariot, Arabs start temple to artemis, Ghandi has math and will trade for 550g, i dont yet.

Turn 9: Tarsus Worker-> Worker, Aleppo Barracks -> Swordsman

Turn 10: Nothing much


btw: researching in anarchy is easy: 1 scientist for life, yo

:aargh:

Hattusas is now a six turn settler farm and Tarsus a 4/3 worker farm

To recap Sesn's table:
Here is how you would set up your factory:

irrigated wheat on plains: 3f, 1s
irrigated wheat on grass: 4f, 0s
Mined BG tile: 2f, 2s
Mined Sugar on plains: 2f, 2s
City center square: 2f,1s

For a total of 13f and 6s. For size 4, you need 8f, leaving a surplus of 5f.

For turn one : work the above, getting 6s
For turn two: Same as above, but the new citizen gets added to the forest, giving a free 2s, for a total of 14.
For turn three: move citizen from forest to mined grass, get 7s for a total of 21
For turn four: Same as above, second new citizen gets added to forest to get 2 free shields, total of 30.

Note: You must have the governor set to "emphasize production for this to work. You no longer have to move the citizen on every turn two with the mined sugar and the game forest.

The gods have given us the two most powerful tools in the game, let's not lose the handles.

Following my little outburst I opened the save and ran some turns to get pictures of the citizen assignments. I also mined the sugar and gave it to Hattusas.

So here are the pictures:
irrigated wheat on plains: 3f, 1s
irrigated wheat on grass: 4f, 0s
Mined BG tile: 2f, 2s
Game forest: 2f, 2s
City center square: 2f,1s

For a total of 13f and 6s. For size 4, you need 8f, leaving a surplus of 5f.
For turn one : work the above, getting 6s
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Clive1SettlerFarmT1.png

For turn two: Same as above, but the new citizen gets added to the mined plains sugar, giving a free 2s, for a total of 14.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Clive1SettlerFarmT2.png

For turn three: no change needed

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Clive1SettlerFarmT3.png

For turn four: Same as above, second new citizen gets added to 2s tile to get 2 free shields, total of 30.

And so back to turn 1

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Clive1SettlerFarmT4.png


With the game forest and the mined sugar the settler factory should be self-managing.

I'll edit this post with the updated worker farm in a bit. Still have to grow Tarsus to four, or five.

At pop4 Tarsus is a 3 turn settler factory. It is not self managing

Here's the setup:

On turn 1:
City center: 2f1s
Fish: 2f
Mined grasslands: 4f4s
12fpt4spt

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Clive1WorkerFarmT1.png

The new citizen is assigned a forest and the worker is produced on turn 3

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Clive1WorkerFarmT3.png

You need to open the city screen and reassign the citizen to the fish:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Clive1WorkerFarmT3A.png

Last note: Neither Tarsus nor Hattusas need any more worker labor for the foreseeable future, if not all the way to the Industrial Age.

@SirClive,
First thing you need to do to get Hattusas tuned properly is reassign the closest workers to mine the sugar. Also let Tarsus grow to four using a placeholder. Just make sure when you swap from the placeholder to the worker that you stay at pop4 when the worker is produced.

I enjoyed this little exercise as I now know how to set these farms up.

Screenshot:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/clive1screenshot1000bc.jpg

Amended roster -

mtgfreak - Just played
Sir Clive - Up next
Bede - In the wings
Viper275 -
MSTK -
Admiral Kutzov -

Blimey - this settler factory lark looks complicated :(

I will try my best to make it work.

I'm now about to go to bed as it is 00-30 here and I have to be up for work tomorrow but I should be able to play tomorrow evening UK time. Hopefully try to post some thoughts before I start (work permiting :( )

Well, I'm very bored.

So, I made up a new plan! Yay!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/japwar.jpg

EDIT: Tactical Analysis
Well, again I'm going with the Swordsmen-3MC combo, because those are the three greatest units we have.
The main barrier is that a mountaon range completely seperates us from them. It's like a giant wall - there are no one-tile-wide gaps. The only way to get through there is by using a diagnol move pass. And, where that is rare, there are also forests blocking it. But we won't have time to put that much roads in unless we divert our precious workers. So, I've worked around it.
To sweep Japan from the north, you have to go through the Northern Pass. Blocking that is a big forest. The chances of a northern sweep is very low if we want to be conservative.
A Southern Sweep seems the only choice, but is impossible, because what seperates us from it is an ocean. The only possible way by 3MC is a "butterfly" sweep that starts from the middle and goes either north or south.
If they go north, then there is still the matter of the south. A Southern Sweep is impossible, even with Swordsmen (unless you have a fleet of galleys, which we can't afford). So, we go south from the center! That way, the Swordsmen couild cover the North with a northern sweep.

So, a fleet of Swordsmen go ahead and knock out Nara and Osaka. They recombine and go for Edo. From there, Satsuma. Then they go to Kyoto (the capital of Japan - probably somewhere at the very center of the empire, under the fog). From there, they meet with our 3MC, who finally finds a location they can attack efficiently. Then, they sweep south, with combined forces and re-inforcements.

However, the southern-most city may be hard to claim. But Japan should be hindered enough, so we cna just finish them off any time now.

There's a settler due in 1 turn and we should churn out 2 more during my 10 turns ( assuming I don't screw up the MM in Hattusas :( ) so I want to make sure I send them in the right direction.

It's too late to make a dotmap , so hope you understand this - I would say the three main sites are

1) Wheat / coast south of riverbend

2) On river by mountains west of Silk Forests primed to strike Osaka

3) Plains by incense NW of OK Corral.

I'm inclined to go 1) first (because it is closest) but I'm then undecided on 2 +3 .

Any thoughts team ?

I think incense is a priority, but the one near Osaka seems to be good. We can go Osaka -> Kyoto and grab the Cattle.

I made a dotmap of Sir Clive's cities, but I moved #3 one square southwest to work with the additional three I thought of.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/clive1dotmap1000bc.jpg
The #4 city connects Vineyard with the rest of our cities and could become a large desert city because of all the oasis squares. Don't know if that's too many, though. #5 is next to Osaka like #3 and grabs gems and an extra source of iron (it's nice to have backup with resources that can exhaust.) #6 gets the cattle resource that India could grab and allows a road between Ugarit and the rest of our empire.

The best spot is No 1 just two tiles due west of where the spear is standing.

Then 2 at the center of the oases.

Here is an extension of the map made by scout:


#1 & #2 are high priority. #1 gets the iron, river commerce, and lots of forests and plains as well as an irrigation path to an incense town and site 2. 3, 4, and 5, 6, 7 might be better as 6, 7, 3, 4, 5. We will probably have to waltz with the Japanese to get 5.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DM2.png

Have to be a quick post since I am at work :(

Had a look at the dotmaps posted and can see the attraction of the westernmost site on the river.

I was concerned that going for that one might allow the Japanese to settle in the grassland south of us.

However I will go with the flow and send the first settler out west towards the river / iron.

Hopefully get all the turns done tonight, however if something unexpected happens (for example someone declares war on us) I may stop half way through and ask for advice.

You're at work? :confused:
It's midnight here. I have to go to sleep :cry:

It's 9.36 am here !

@Sir Clive,

You have two settlers on the ground ( one with the spear 2 tiles from the river spot and a second due west of Riverbend) , a third due on the IT which you want to delay until Hattusas will grow on the turn the settler is produced (move the citizen working the forest to the unshielded grass) and you should produce two more on your set for a total of three.

Looks like the best order will be 1, 3, 2. Then 6, 7, 4.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DM21.png

Worker assignment note:
Mining mountains at this stage takes too long and makes no contribution to the first priority: population growth. Each citizen working a roaded food producing tile adds growth and and we only need 10spt to have efficient troop production. Move the worker on the mountain to mine the sugar. Wake up the workers improving terrain around Tarsus, keep one to finish the mine at Aleppo and send the rest to Riverbend. Irrigate and road the river plains, mine and road the plain NE of the mountain, irrigate the rest and Riverbend will be at 10 net spt. Once those tasks are finished at Riverbend move the workers in gangs of two to the NW and north cities. If you have two workers improving the terrain in a town's closest tiles you will have improved terrain for each new citizen to work. New workers produced at Tarsus should head west to support the southern quadrant.

Suggested citizen assignments:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/C1Riverbend.jpg


There are still two civs to meet and we need to identify the resource locations of the neighbors so we could use one or two more scouts and maybe a curragh out of Aleppo to cruise the coast.

Have fun!!!! :)

Thanks Bede - haven't had a chance to look at the saved game yet since I am at work so couldn't see where the settlers were.

Should we be pumping new military out of all of the new towns straight away ? If so , presumably they should all build barracks first or are we happy to have some regular units ?

Principle:
Not every town needs every building.

Application:

Towns facing the enemy and with the potential to get to 5, 10, or 15 net spt need barracks. Towns inside the lines or on the backlines don't need barracks at all. As an empire develops I may even sell barracks in towns that are no longer on the frontlines or are too far from the front to deliver support quickly.

Towns that have food and/or commerce bonuses need granaries and markets before barracks.

If every settler is escorted then you don't need to build military in a new town unless there is some immediate threat (barbarian camp or wandering barbs).

Now I'm starting to really understand how the Settler factory works. Right now, Hattusas will build a Settler in one turn, but it'll lose 2 population from size 5 and turn into size 3, and that's not what we want. This is why I think Hattusas is taking more than 4 turns to build Settlers, it's using 1 less citizen than it should be. So, make Hattusas take 1 turn longer to build a Settler so that it'll be at size 4 when it builds it, then study Bede's post (Bede's post on page 10 about the settler/worker factory with lots of good screenshots.) It's very helpful and those screenshots were mostly what made me better understand how the settler factory works.

before i forget, the settlers are on go-to orders, so just right click and activate to move them

Since turns are taking slightly longer now I thought I would post the turnlog for the first 5 turns. Hopefully will have the next 5 finished and posted tonight (UK time)

Aims for this turn. Build up infrastructure and military . Get the 4 turn settler
factory working . Settle us much available land as possible . Try to avoid going
to war unless we get Monarchy.

I'm still slightly confused by the settler factory - shouldn't I build something else
and let it get to size 4 before starting to build settlers again ?
I'll leave it as is for the moment

Preturn - check all of the city screens - tile placement and build orders all look OK .
Ensure settlers are no longer on goto orders. I note we have a conscript warrior a couple
of tiles into Japanese territory. Hope this doesn't hack them off too much since I'm not
quite ready for war yet !

Check aroung to see if there are any deals available. only one who has anything we don't
is Gandhi who has Mathematics. Best deal I can get is Maths for HBR , Writing and 160g.
Much as I like Cats I don't think it is worth it . If we had the necessary Ivory to build
the ToZ I might have considered it but we will decline for now.

Hit Enter.
Barbs kills a worker near Delhi
Hattusas builds a Settler - switch to ... err .... err.... Settler !!
Cultural advisor tells me Egypt are building the pyramids

975 (1) Send newly formed settler towards riverbend to pick up a spear escort.
He will then head towards Bede's site 6 (I agree with you Bede that 3, 4, and
5, 6, 7 might be better as 6, 7, 3, 4, 5.). Settler near riverbend heads towards
Bede site 3. Find we have a worker 1 tile south of Delhi (how did he get there ?).
Order him south.
Forgot to cancel goto order on spear / settler pair by Ok Corral and they head
North :( . Cancel their orders - they're now going to arrive a little late.

IT - Japan is annoyed by our warrior in his territory. Grovel .
Tarsus worker - worker
Riverbend spearman - swordsman
Babylon have produced the Colossus

950 (2) Send a couple of workers towards Hattasus to mine the sugar as per Bede's
settler plant instruction.

IT - Barb horseman kills the worker retreating from Delhi.
Egyptians are building the Oracle.
Russians are building the Pyramids.
Best deal I can get Maths from Egypt for is HBR , Writing and 150g.
Could turn slider down from 10% to 0% but it would only gain us 2gpt. Seeing as
we have plenty of gold I leave it as is rather than risk a town
going into riot when we get growth.


925 (3) Start moving a few workers to the south to road up our new cities
which will be formed soon in the area south of Riverbend.

IT - Nothing

900 (4) Settler (who was going to pick up escort at Riverbend)
heads towards Bede site 2 (Oasis) on his tod since there is already an escort to
take care of him before he gets outside our territory.
Settle Grassy Beach in Bede's position 3. Set production to Archer - please
feel free to veto. I'm not sure what to build here . We need more workers
and this could be a good source but we need to let it grow a little first I think.
Iron river founded at Bede site 1. Again I am not sure what to produce here - start
on Barracks.

IT - Tarsus worker - worker
Aleppo swordsman - swordsman
Vineyard warrior - worker (India warrior and barbs are nearby but we should have
enough defence and it would be good to get the wines hooked up ASAP)

875 (5) Settler headed for oasis site will be there next turn.

IT Hattusas produces settler. Start on settler.
Russia now has Mathematics we can get from them for 250g or Philosophy or Polytheism
India will let us have it for 225g or Philosophy
Buy Mathematics for 225g from India. Nobody else really has enough money to make
selling it on worthwhile.

Half way through my turns the state is as follows

We have 21% world population - next highest is Maya with 10%
According to demographics we are number one in everything apart from land area (2)
and Military service (9)
Military is 2 settler, 12 worker, 11 warrior, 9 spearmen, 1 swordsman

We are up by the following techs

Egypt - Phil
Maya - Maths + Phil
India - Phil
Japan - Writing + Maths
Arabia - Writing + HBR
Russia - Phil + Poly

Russia has about 160g, Japan has about 60g . The rest are broke. I'm thinking about whether
to sell some tech to them as writing + phil are both fairly harmless at this stage.

I'm also debating whether to build embassies or not - price is currently
Egypt 45g, Maya 51g, India 26g , Japan 33g, Arabia 46g , Russia 43g

Screenie to follow

The settler factory is running 5 turns at this point, oscillating pop 3-5-3. The oscillation in population for the 4 turn factory is from 4-6-4.

To recap:
Citizen Assignments at start (pop4):
irrigated wheat on plains: 3f, 1s
irrigated wheat on grass: 4f, 0s
Mined BG tile: 2f, 2s
Game forest: 2f, 2s
City center square: 2f,1s

For a total of 13f and 6s. For size 4, you need 8f, leaving a surplus of 5f.

For turn one : work the above, getting 6s
For turn two at pop5: Same as above, but the new citizen gets added to the mined plains sugar, giving a free 2s, for a total of 14.
For turn three: no change needed
For turn four at pop6: Same as above, second new citizen gets added to forest to get 2 free shields, total of 30.

And so back to turn 1

With the game forest and the mined sugar the settler factory should be self-managing.

Establishing embassies now is an excellent idea. Please report what you find when the capital screen opens: pop, fpt, spt, gpt %science, %tax, citizen types (clowns, tax men, working stiffs), garrison, improvements, current build and if it is a wonder time to complete.

What did India spend the money for?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Clive1_850BC.JPG

Good job so far.
I wish I could see an Iron River.

EDIT: BTW, has anyone considered my Japan War Plan?http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2017522&postcount=195

EDIT AGAIN: Why is Grassy Beach building archer? Call me ignorant, but wouldn't it be better if we built a Warrior and upgraded it?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Clive1_850BC.JPG

The worker mining the mountain needs to climb down and start working the plains tiles at Riverbend.

Let Tarsus grow to size 4 then it will be a 3 turn worker farm. See post above with suggested citizen assignments. With a three turn factory we will have enough workers on the ground to get our terrain improved. Tarsus is not self managing as the citizen working the forest tile on the turn the worker is produced has to move to a 2 food tile.

With a granary at Grassy Beach We would have another worker farm.

If a city needs MP support and doesn't have a barracks build a warrior; regular spears and archers cost about as much as temples and are less useful.

Clive, the fortified spearman standing just outside Ok Corral's borders is a guard for the workers, and it was fortified for extra defense

EDIT: Woohoo!! 50 posts

Good job so far.
I wish I could see an Iron River.


EDIT AGAIN: Why is Grassy Beach building archer? Call me ignorant, but wouldn't it be better if we built a Warrior and upgraded it?

Certainly no more ignorant than me MSTK! As I mentioned , I wasn't sure what to build here but I assumed it wouldn't be completed before the end of my turn and the next player could change it. I'm not all that used to lots of upgrades - I'm normally struggling with only 40/50/60 gold at this stage in my solo games so don't generally have the dosh to do it. I will have another look and probably change it . Now we have iron I do like swordsmen if they can be built in a reasonable time so I may change to that instead

With a granary at Grassy Beach We would have another worker farm.

.

That sounds like a good idea ! As I mentioned before I could do with some more workers so a ganary it is.

Not sure whether I will finish my turns tonight - if not I will definitely
finish tomorrow.

Anyway , we now have embassies with all the civs we have met so far
(sorry , forgot to get stats for population for the first 2). Everyone we know
is building a wonder in their capital.

Embassy with Egypt for 45g - 4 cities
Thebes has Pop 2, 6fpt (2 surplus) , 3spt, 100% science, 0 % tax , 2 workers
Palace, 115 turns to Pyramids, Garrison of 2 and no strategic resources / luxuries

Embassy with Japan for 33g - 8 cities
Kyoto has Pop 4, 10fpt (2 surplus) , 8spt, 90% science, 10 % tax , 4 workers
Palace, 115 turns to Pyramids, Garrison of 2 and 1 silk

Embassy with India for 26g - 8 cities - Pop 41,111
Delhi has Pop 2, 6fpt (2 surplus) , 3spt, 100% science, 0 % tax , 2 workers
Palace, 79 turns to Oracle, Garrison of 2 and 1 spices

Embassy with Maya for 51g - 4 cities - Pop 218,888
Chichen Itza has Pop 6, 13fpt (1 surplus) , 6spt, 90% science, 10 % tax , 5 workers 1 clown
Palace, 16 turns to Pyramids, Garrison of 2 and 1 horse

Embassy with Arabia for 45g - 4 cities - Pop 41,111
Mecca has Pop 2, 6fpt (2 surplus) , 5spt, 80% science, 20 % tax , 2 workers
Palace, 83 turns to Temple of Artemis , Garrison of 2 and 2 wines

Embassy with Russia for 43g - 4 cities - Pop 113,333
Moscow has Pop 4, 10fpt (2 surplus) , 6spt, 100% science, 0 % tax , 4 workers
Palace, 40 turns to Pyramids, Garrison of 2 and no strategic resources / luxuries

Really sorry guys - in an effort to get my turns finished tonight I stayed up late to finish and after a hard day's work my brain wasn't really working properly. I therefore screwed up and I think I played 11 turns instead of 10 - sorry about that :(

Too late to post comments tonight - will have to wait until tomorrow.
Here's the turn log for turns 6-11 ( :( )

850 (6)

Change Tarsus to Galley so that it can grow in size and produce workers more quickly

Japan know Hittites and Russia
Russia know Hittites , Japan , India and Arabia
Arabia knows Russia , Hittites, India and Egypt
Maya know Hittites and Egypt
Egypt know Arabia, Maya, India and Hittites
India know Hittites , Russia , Arabia and Egypt



IT Riverbend Swordsman - Swordsman
Lux needs to go to 20% to keep riverbend from rioting. We should be able to
put this back down again once we get the wines hooked up.
Silk Forests Barracks - 3MC
Grassy Beach - switch from Archer to Granary following worker factory suggestion
Oasisville founded (guess where :) ) set build to Granary

Fiddle with slider to see how much more quickly we could get Monarchy. Going from
10% sci to 80% sci reduces gold from +21pt to -4pt and only reduces Monarchy cost
from 34 turns to 30 turns so leave things as they are.

825 (7)

General worker movement . Nothing else

IT - Ugarit - Worker - warrior
Sell Writing to Japan for 50g since they are one of the few civs with money
and I can't see they can do too much with it. They can get it from Russia anyway so
might as well get some more gold.

800 (8)

General worker movement . Settler is 1 turn away from Bede's city 6 West of Aleppo

IT - Barb horse comes out of nowhere and kills unprotected worker (My bad :( )
Ankuwa 3MC - 3MC
Indians are building Temple of Artemis
Japanes are building Temple of Artemis
Arabs are building Oracle


775 (9)

Send 3MC from Ankuwa out exploring towards the incense


IT - Tarsus builds Curragh - set back to worker
OK Corral builds 3MC - 3MC
Allepo 3MC - 3MC
Vineyard worker - warrior
Greenland founded on (I think) Bede's city 6 . I am not too sure whether this is
right - seems to be a bit too much overlap. Set to Granary build


750 (10)

Realise there is only one worker transferring the irrigated sugar nr Hattusas into a mine
for the worker factory - send 2 more workers on goto to that square.

**** and blast - just saw that the date says 730 BC - must have screwed up somewhere :(
I suppose I had better play to the end of this turn rather than post a save mid turn :(

General worker movement nothing else

I've just spent the last 30 minutes trying to upload the save and the screenshot but the upload site seems to be hanging :(

It's now almost 1am here and I have work tomorrow so I am going to have to crash out :(

Revised roster

mtgfreak -
Sir Clive - Just played
Bede - Up next
Viper275 - In the wings
MSTK -
Admiral Kutzov -

I'll try to upload the save before I leave for work tomorrow (07.00 - 07.30 London time) but I may not have time. If any of you want to PM me I will post you a zip of the save and you can try uploading it (since I won't be able to upload it from work tomorrow)

Otherwise you'll have to wait until 19-00 tomorrow London time for me to try uploading again :(

Save and screenshot are now in uploads folder - haven't got time to post URL but you should be able to find them both have 730 in the name (should be 750 but I :thumbdown by playing the wrong number of turns as reported earlier

Haven't had time to follow this recently, but I'm sure Bede and Scout are helping you guys fine.

Speaking of helping....

>>>SAVE<<< (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Clive1_Hittites_730_BC.SAV)


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Clive1_730BC.JPG

:goodjob:

Got it.

Thanks for posting the screenshot for me SesnOWethr :goodjob:

Must admit I found the play quite hard going last night.

Seeing as this is my first is SG it's the first time I have ever written a turnlog
and had to take screenshots, and I am probably playing with a less blase attitude than I do when I am playing on my own and hence the turns take quite a bit longer.

Due to having some RL stuff to do between turns 5 and 6 I didn't get finished until about 00-30 and having been slaving over a hot computer screen all day as well this is probably why my turns were a bit :thumbdown towards the end and I screwed up the turns. I apologise !

As the turns get longer I think I will try to play over 2 evenings , 5 moves per evening in future.

I'll have a think about strategy tonight , however once we had got the embassies it looked to me as if Japan should be first for :ar15:

I tend to avoid hitting militaristic civs early on but they are closest to us, they have some nice looking land, they only have 4 (?) cities and judging from the embassy info they are pretty weak all round. I would think we can finish them off pretty quickly.

The most important thing is to not let any conflict get in the way of expansion.

If you slow your expansion, then India and others will fill up the space before you can finish off Japan.

Make a concise plan, and stick to it. How many defenders do you expect in each city? Allowing for rng quirks, how many units, and what kind, will you need to take each city? Will you raze and replace, or simply keep the cities? If you keep the cities, how big is the flip risk? Is this a pruning war (make them weaker) or an elimination war? Do they have the ability to sign anyone else on against you? If so, can you handle that threat, or do you need to sign others on first? Can you win this war without triggering your GA, or do you need to wait for a new govt?

As I said, I haven't had a ton of time lately to look at the save, but just some food for thought. ;)

Well, I wrote up a Japan attack plan...

:cry:

Will you raze and replace, or simply keep the cities? If you keep the cities, how big is the flip risk? )

This is a very interesting point for me. I have been playing civ for about 4 years and I don't think I have ever razed a city.

I normally play a fairly peaceful game, build lots of libraries / temples early on and try to stuff captured cities full of troops and use multiple clowns to keep them quiet (usually resulting in multiple starvation). Normally my superior culture means I keep the cities (unless my useless warfare tactics means they get recaptured by opposition military superiority , which is usually the case :( )

Have always been scared of the rep hit , but primarily my view has been if there is a size 5/6 city there and I have captured it, why go through the hassle of building it up again ?

I suppose I ought to have a quick play on a small map and experiment with razing vs capturing !

Well, I wrote up a Japan attack plan...

:cry:

Just read it again MSTK (didn't reply to it in the first place since as you know I am a coward and afraid of war :) )

Looks pretty good to me - there are so few places 3MC can get through making the first assault with swords to weaken the west seems a good idea. Also attacking from that side means we are in effect protecting Iron river which is currently one of our weakest cities at the moment. I definitely agree with Nara and Osaka being the first targets.

Is it worth trying to settle in the spot half way between Silk Forests and Osaka (where we currently have a warrior I think?) ? This looks as if it could be a good rally point and it is one of the few points where the 3MC can pass though.

How long do we reckon it will be before we will be able to change to change government ? For me there is still a big reluctance to go to war whilst in Despotism unless we can finish them off without using the 3MC

The most important thing is to not let any conflict get in the way of expansion.
If you slow your expansion, then India and others will fill up the space before you can finish off Japan.

Everybody, print that out and sticky it to your monitor! It's the best advice you'll hear tonight.


.....How many defenders do you expect in each city? Allowing for rng quirks, how many units, and what kind, will you need to take each city? Will you raze and replace, or simply keep the cities? If you keep the cities, how big is the flip risk? Is this a pruning war (make them weaker) or an elimination war? Do they have the ability to sign anyone else on against you? If so, can you handle that threat, or do you need to sign others on first? Can you win this war without triggering your GA, or do you need to wait for a new govt?

All good questions and must be answered before the first war.

@MSTK,
I think all are agreed the campaign plans laid out in your maps are sound. The timing and the objectives remain to be determined. The one worst thing you can do is start a war too early, with too little to gain. As pointed out above in the time it takes to build an assault force we could have 7 or 8 more native cities humming away nicely, be leading the pack technically, and have an impregnable defense. Japan has no resources we need right now, is poor and lacking knowledge, they have one luxury good, we have three, their cities are small and poorly developed, ours are growing and getting the improvements needed. Once we run out of sites to build on, or the Japanese start encroaching on ours, or we discover they have something we really need, then hit them with everything we have and send 'em back to the Stone Age.

@MSTK - I missed your war plan. I apoligize for that. I will try to go back and locate it when I get a moment.

@Sir Clive - Razing cities gives you an attitude hit, not a rep hit. The two can be difficult to distinguish, but their effects are very different. Attitude determines what their disposition is (gracious, furious, etc). Attitude basically determines how likely they are to break deals with you, or attack you. Rep hits affect how you are able to buy up front items (like techs) for gpt.

0-730
Swap a few builds around and start the ToA in Aleppo as a pre-build for the GreatLib. Set Research to Lit in 50 when we will have 2/3 in the shields in the bin to nail the Library. We lose what was invested in Monarchy but now that all the other nations have Polytheism plan on buying Monarchy, or Republic, from them, or getting it from the Great Library, if this gambit works, as it should.

The Great Library build is not intended as a crutch. Rather it is for denial to the other nations. I want everybody to pay full price, to us, preferably, but if not to somebody else. No freebies for the AI!!!1

Afraid the counsel I gave regarding the choice of free tech from the Philosophy gambit was wrong. As Polytheism was not available for purchase at the time we got the free tech I should have advised another choice. However, our lead in population gives us a little wriggle room here.

Maya start ToA

690BC
Couple of barb horsemen appear on the northern marches. The are excellent candidates to train our regular chariots so off we go to find the camp and play whack-a-barb or three and collect some fines.

Cleopatra has learned Map Making so I see if can't relieve her of it for Philosphy and get some cash in the bargain. She wants Philosophy and 2/3 of the treasury. That's way too rich for my blood and besides nobody else has anything to offer.

670BC Find the barb camp and it retreats our regular chariot. :mad:

630BC
Russia has learned Map Making. I can get it now from Cleopatra for Philosophy straight up but again with nowhere else to send it defer the deal for now.

610BC
Raid the Toltec camp for 25g :D, right under the noses of two Indian warriors.

The Arabs want to extort Philosophy from us. He is as far away as he can get, has no iron and no horses. Tell him to go back to his tent in the desert. He allows as how he "respects our fortitude" and slinks away

590BC
Maya have learned Code of Laws, now we've got something to talk about. We should be able to get Code of Laws, Map Making and all the money.

Start the trading round by getting Code of Laws from the Maya for Philosophy and 260g. Then get Map Making from Cleoptra for Philosphy and 250g. Then take 331g from Maya for MapMaking and 96g from Gandhi for Philosphy. Leave the Japanese out of the trading round as they know only the Russians and the Russians are broke. Then go back to Cleopatra and sell Code of Laws for 375g.

Japanese finish the Oracle and the Arabs start the Pyramids

570BC
Sell Philosphy to the Japanese as they now have met the Indians.

550
Trekking settlers.

We have all the money, though Cleo has picked up some chump change by selling knowledge.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/MapStat550BC.png

There are two settlers on the ground heading north

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/550BC01.png

There is a warrior on a mountain to garrison the northernmost town on the grasslands and a spear preceding the second settler to the fishing village cove.

Worker troops are making their way to the NW. The suggested improvements at Riverbend should get the city to 15spt (2 turn swords and chariots) as the population grows to 12.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/550BC02.png

There are no imporvements needed at either Tarsus or Hattusas for them to fulfill their purposes. Hattusas no longer needs active management as a four turn farm. At Tarsus make sure the fourth citizen gets assigned to the fish when the worker is produced and it will stay on the 3 turn cycle.

There is a gang of workers at Tarsus in the woods, run a road then head them to the NW or NE (there is no need to chop the forest, the road will deliver an extra gold piece) I don't recommend using forest chops on unit production, save the trees for books and shelves when we learn literature, or use them for law books in courthouses if there is a corruption problem.


There are two scouts heading north to the black hole in the map and mapping the Russina and Japanese territories, and a curragh sailing west around the coast of Japan. There are a couple more nations to find.

With all the money we have in the treasury and the knoweldge we control I expect more demands from the AI. If it is the Arabs or the Maya, tell 'em to get lost. If they declare war, make alliances with Egypt (Maya) and Russia (Arabs). Let them do the fighting, it will tie up their resources while we keep expanding and building. If is the Egyptians, the Japanese or the Indians we need to think about it.

I have been stockpiling swords at Silk Forests and War Chariots at the OK Corral. There are two War Chariots northbound to Ugarit to act as garrisons and play whack-barb should anymore show up. Silk Forests can build spears in a reasonable time line to serve garrison duty. I wouldn' t recommend using swords or chariots. Keep those guys close to the front! There is a chariot at Hattusas jsut because there is an Egyptian warrior inbound along the coast. I don't see any threat, just a recon mission, but no harm in keeping an eye on him.

It appears that we control a good portion of the iron and the horses, at least in this little corner of the map (though I think Japan has horses available to them at Tokyo).

Roster check

Viper275 - UP
MSTK - on deck
Admiral Kutzov
mtgfreak
Sir Clive
Bede

Nice set of turns.

what happens if you settle near a volcano, and it erupts?
ive never been unlucky enough for that to happen

what happens if you settle near a volcano, and it erupts?
ive never been unlucky enough for that to happen

Your town is rubbleized.

You also want to be careful about roads around voclanoes, they will cut the road and if it happens to be a trade route you will have a bunch of really unhappy trading partners.

Got it. I'll play tomorrow (Wednesday) morning.

I will be away on Friday, BTW.

I probably won't be able to read this stuff on Thursday, this weekend could be hard, too.

This set of turns went pretty well, although I got confused by the years at some point. It also didn't let me confirm the next turn by pressing spacebar/enter, so the save is at the 11th turn but I haven't moved any units. I'll post a screenshot soon.

Turn 1
Maya finish Pyramids. Everybody (including the Maya) except for Egypt changed to The Mausoleum.
Turn 2
Civil Disorder in Riverbend, nothing else new.
Turn 3
Nothing special.
Turn 4
Got a Settler, headed toward the Incense. Founded Kanesh next to the Iron and the river.
Turn 5
Founded Kavhuyuk next to the coast and gold.
Turn 6
Nothing noteworthy.
Turn 7
Ditto.
Turn 8
Moved around units, that's about it.
Turn 9
Russia has Construction, along with many other civs now. Since almost everyone besides them has Code of Laws, I trade that to them and 360 gold, which was a good deal to me considering that many civs wanted 500+ gold for Construction and Russia could have easily traded with someone else for Code of Laws. Barbarians!
Turn 10
Our Curragh sees a coastline that is seperate from us but can be gotten to by a Curragh. Perhaps an island with another civ on it, I'm not sure. Barbarians steal gold from Kanesh. 28, I think.

Admiral Kutzov-in the wings
mtgfreak
Sir Clive
Bede
viper275-Just went
MSTK-up next

I've been out of touch for a few days and just did a really quick review of all. FYI, I will be vacationing until 8/3/04 (skip me as needed until I report ready to play - don't wait the 24 hours for a got it). I may be able to check in, but I won't be able to play.

I'm in agreement that we continue to expand with settlers. Based on my really quick review, India is our weakest rival for now. Let's decide if japan or Russia is stronger and then take out the stronger when our military is ready. Whichever we go after, we ally with the other, thus weakening threat #2. It will probably take about 20 turns to reduce threat #1. When the alliance expires, we attack threat #2 if we have sufficient military. In either case we let the alliance go. Our invasion path for threat #1 should end near the borders of threat #2. When ready, we attack threat #2 on an invasion route that will end near borders with India. Rivals reduced or eliminated, rep preserved, expansion continues.

I'd like discussion on when and where to build FP and possible future movement of palace.

I got it...

Still looking good team !


I'm in agreement that we continue to expand with settlers. Based on my really quick review, India is our weakest rival for now. Let's decide if japan or Russia is stronger and then take out the stronger when our military is ready. .

@Admiral Agree with you and SensOfWthr . There is no one who is much of a threat to us at the moment so I am all for settling all available land before going to war. Agree we should start thinking about FP and possible Palace move. I will have a look once I have downloaded the save game.

@Bede - what is that utilty you pasted in your post which
shows stats for Territory / Terrain / Culture / Pollution / Happiness / Trading ?
Looks very useful to me rather than trawling through F1 - F10 . Does it show you anything you can't get from the F1 - F10 screens and maps , i.e could it be considered an exploit ?

Amended roster

Admiral Kutzov- Vacation until 3 Aug (since 8/3/04 will just confuse us English folks :) )
mtgfreak - In the wings
Sir Clive -
Bede -
viper275-Just went
MSTK-up next

@Bede - what is that utilty you pasted in your post which
shows stats for Territory / Terrain / Culture / Pollution / Happiness / Trading ?
Looks very useful to me rather than trawling through F1 - F10 . Does it show you anything you can't get from the F1 - F10 screens and maps , i.e could it be considered an exploit ?

No, CivRpSuite is qualified for use in GotM, IIRC. You can download it from the Utilities forum...

No, CivRpSuite is qualified for use in GotM, IIRC. You can download it from the Utilities forum...

Thanks MSTK - I will go and check it out.

I'm going to play it tonight.

...I don't think I have ever razed a city. You don't know what you're missing. It's not as much fun as kissing a pretty girl, but you'll never have to buy a house for an AI. :D

I normally play a fairly peaceful game, build lots of libraries / temples early on and try to stuff captured cities full of troops and use multiple clowns to keep them quiet (usually resulting in multiple starvation). Starving cities down is a valid tactic, and usually works... until you get to this part:Normally my superior culture <snip>As you guys progress through the levels, you will find it increasingly difficult to maintain cultural parity with the AI. At Demi-God, it's just about impossible; the AI "production bonuses" (actually discounts) result in AI cultural monsters. This is when "raze and replace" makes sense. opposition military superiority@Bede: We'll have to work on this theme. :mischief:

Winning battles when you're outgunned is challenging fun. Winning battles when you're outclassed and outgunned is downright satisfying (but still not as much fun as kissing a pretty girl).

Don't worry, we'll get you guys there on tactics. MSTK has a pretty good grasp on Maneuver. Bede posted some good notes on logistics... "putting the pieces in place" so that the war is decided before the first shot is fired.

@Bede: remind me to work on these themes:

*defending with offensive units/skirmishing
*combined arms
....and something I've been trying to nail down a term for something that you've no doubt used...that I used extensively in Bede2... for now I'll call it "flatfoot skirmishing"...

I've played out half my turns.

<b>Pre-Turn</b>
See that we are very conservative - move both sliders up 2 notches for a gain of 11 GPT.

Turn 1
The Curragh discovers a 2-tile island.
Kummanni Founded near incense. Started on Swordsmen.

Turn 2
Egyptians and Japanese start on Temple of Artemis.

Turn 3
Indian Troops fortify in our territory. Let them be.

Turn 4
Nothing

Turn 5
Whoops. India declares war and attacks Iron River. They phail, but they catch a worker roading Incense.
On lighter note, We Love the King Day is declared in Riverbend.

...what happens now?

THERE IS WAR

So...are we doomed?

Are you doomed? Certainly not!!

They failed in their attempt, which is very good. Apparently they decided they wanted that iron. :lol:

Sometimes it's better to tell them to move, especially if it's a couple units. Let them declare war and then you get the first attack.

What kind of units are they attacking with? It will probably be a couple turns before they send a few more units at you, so you have time to round up a response force. Haven't you been building units all along getting ready for Japan?

A screenshot is always more helpful to evaluate a situation....

Yes, we have a pretty large force of Swordsmen and Chariots, enough to follow up with my Japan Plan, in fact.

But India seems to be attacking with only Warriors.

Yes, we have a pretty large force of Swordsmen and Chariots, enough to follow up with my Japan Plan, in fact.

But India seems to be attacking with only Warriors.

Well then I don't see what the problem is? Ghandi has not lived up to his teachings, so he needs a whuppin.

Take a smallish force of swords (4-7) and kill a few of his units, and maybe raze a city or two. He'll sign peace quickly enough, and he'll get to live for another day. Just because someone attacks you, doesn't mean it has to be genocide time.

Hurt him, take peace for whatever he has, and then refocus on Japan.

Probably want to leave the 3MC's home, IIRC you're still a despot.

Oh man - WAR!!!! And Ghandi is a long way from his War Elephants!!! WooHooo!!! :hammer:

Quick... post a screenie!!!

No - seriously .... take a deep breath. This will sound counter-intuitive at first:

When at war, play slowly.

Read that again. Think it through, and play decisively.

Take an inventory of what you have available to counter India's assault.

1) What cities can they threaten, and in what numbers?
2) What is on hand to reinforce those cities?
3) Where do you have barracks?
4) What units can reach the threatened cities?

Okay, I'm out for the night. I'll finish playing tomorrow.

Whoops. India declares war and attacks Iron River. They phail, but they catch a worker roading Incense.
On lighter note, We Love the King Day is declared in Riverbend.

...what happens now?

THERE IS WAR

So...are we doomed?

Au contraire. It's Gandhi that will take the beating. :ninja:, so he is both outclassed and outgunned and will soon be overwhelmed.

Warriors and spears are no match against concentrated swords and his largest town is only pop5 (the others are all pop1).

BTW Monarchy is available for purchase. It will cost an arm and a leg.

Wrote scout:
"1) What cities can they threaten, and in what numbers?
2) What is on hand to reinforce those cities?
3) Where do you have barracks?
4) What units can reach the threatened cities?"

Answer those questions then deliver the whupping!

Last question:
5) Can we sign any allies and do we want to?