That's not supposed to be a colosseum. Thats supposed to be a market (forum) or a library (biblotecha). Change it please.
Sorry Adrian, my mistake! :eek: I thought a forum was a colesseum. I even went to the city screen to look and thought the icon was a picture of a colesseum. :blush: These latin names are just adding to my :confused:

@Alan - Thanks for picking that up, I started it but had to go back to RL, so didn't finish. Didn't think it was fair that you always had to do it. ;)

Spoiler posted. You can all go and read Smackster's report and weep. Two leaders - Pyramids and Library :cry:

PS Shout if I've missed your favorite moment of glory ...

The Pyramids and GL! YUCK! The RNG hates US bigtime.

No wonder they are growing like mad.

I'm thinking we want to have about 5 or 6 cats between Gonzonium and Virconium. Another 5 or 6 in the South (Pompei area). That backed up by horses and legions should be able to decimate all invaders. We have interior lines and a road network. Try to occupy the hieghts around Gonzonium with legions. That will force the AI's into the open.

Then we can go hunting.

It occurs to me that none of the AI on our continent know about the passage over because we never sold them our map. They are not going to find the other continent until navigation.

The AI have never needed maps to find their way across the seas in my experience. It will be interesting to see if this game proves me wrong, but I always thought they knew the full map. Maybe their logic is flawed on seeing a Lighthouse-enabled route?

If you are right then we can hide our bad rep from the new world for a while and get some gpt deals going, if ever they know anything worth buying :hmm:

I suggest we continue along without giving contacts and see how long our luck holds. If we keep checking with our 4 friends every turn, we'll know when they've made contact!! We might even get some techs out of the deal before they declare on us. :eek:

Just read Team Smackster, we need to feed our systems whatever they have to please that RNG guy!! Smackster also says that they got several more GL's in the MA. Whatever they're doing, we need some of that!! :lol: :cry: :lol: :cry:

Preflight: I don't really agree with the Markets-before-libs scheme as long as we run 50% or more sci, but forum builds are so far along that shields would be wasted in a switch so I leave them.
IBT: No attacks are made against us. Pompeii Cat --> Arms. Pisae Leg --> Leg. Ravenna Leg --> Leg. Hispalis Leg --> Leg. Syracuse Arms --> Leg :lol:
Turn 1 - 70 AD Elite archer kills 1/3 Bab bowman, capturing settler for another GL. No wonders are available and we've got lots of other elites waiting so I return him to the nearest city and make an army, later to be filled with Legions. 5/5 horse def. English reg archer, no HP loss. Elite 4/5 horse def. 2/3 English archer, 1 HP lost. 4/5 Leg def. English 3/3 archer, 2 HP lost. 5/5 horse def. English 3/3 archer, 3 HP lost. 5/5 Leg def. French 3/3 archer, no HP loss. 5/5 horse def. 3/3 American sword, 1 HP lost.
IBT: Loose one elite Legion. Vet horse promotes to Elite with 2 HP lost. Veii Leg --> Leg. Antium Leg --> Leg. Neapolis Forum --> Bibliotheca. Viroconium Leg --> Leg. Byzanthium Cat --> Cat.
Turn 2 - 90 AD Vet Leg def. 2/3 Greek archer. Vet horse def. 1/3 Greek archer, 2 HP lost.
IBT: Engineering --> Feudalism (Looks like we won't get much tech help from the eastern continent so we might as well do it ourselves :( Pompeii Arms --> Leg. Pisae Leg --> Leg. Lugdunum Forum --> Leg. Brundidium Portus --> Arms.
Turn 3 - 110 AD Neocaledonium founded, starts worker.
IBT: GA ends. I need to go back on my preturn assessment. We need to go down to 40% sci to avoid losses now which means markets are better than libs...
Turn 4 - 130 AD We get our first Army win. Lots of elite wins (6). Leader on last attack. Lost a vet horse.
IBT: Rome Bibliotheca --> Heroic Epic. Veii Leg --> Leg. Antium Leg --> Leg. Hispalis Leg --> Leg. The Germans are building Sistine.
Turn 5 - 150 AD Five (5!) cat shots at a sword w/o one hit! Hurry Heroic Epic.
IBT: Americans unload a lone swordie next to Brundisium. Greek unload a lone swordie next to Lugdunum. Looses 2 HP off a vet Leg to English 3/3 swordie. Rome builds Heroic Epic, starts Leg. Pompeii Leg --> Leg. Ravenna Leg --> Leg. Viroconium Leg --> Leg. Lutetia Leg --> Leg.
Turn 6 - 170 AD Get Feudalism, Maps and 13 gold from Monty for Engineering. Start Invention at 50% sci running deficit. Kill both invaders for no loss but HP. 4 elite wins and a GL. I'll save this one for Leo's and spend the rest of my turns trying to get vets upgraded to elites. Lugdunum is switched to Cat next turn b/c a Leg would fit poorly with a chop.
IBT: Loose a vet horse to an American sword. Babs want peace but we don't :cool: Pisae Leg --> Leg. Lugdunum Cat --> Leg. Syracuse Leg --> Leg.
Turn 7 - 190 AD 5 or 6 vet wins, no promos, one vet Leg lost.
IBT: The English roll up a knight! I think they must have an iron colony or else they might have traded it. I can't find iron in their territory... I propose we send our army out to pillage their iron and horses. French reg archers are suiciding against our Legs, two Legs promote to elite. Veii Leg --> Leg. Antium Leg --> Leg. Cumae Bibliotheca --> Leg. Pompeii Leg --> Leg. Byzanthium Cat --> Leg.
Turn 8 - 210 AD Capture Bab settler. Loose an Elite* horse.
IBT: Rome Leg --> Leg. Hispalis Settler --> Leg.
Turn 9 - 230 AD 2 Legs promote.
IBT: Another vet Leg promotes. Neapolis Bibliotheca --> Leg. Pompeii Leg --> Leg. Viroconium Leg --> Leg.
Turn 10 - 250 AD Raze Liverpool for 38 gold with one Leg promoting.

Our military:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM3_XTeam_Military_at_250AD.jpg

+ 1 settler and 21 workers.

Report:

Well, seems like we had a lot of luck with the GLs, but I got to hand that to Adrian. He left me such an abundance of elites :thumbsup: All I did was try to get a lot of elite wins on the one turn and then set up our elites the next turn (on turns 1-6).
I spared our leader for Leo's or Bach's (however improbable), but if you run out of vets and need to start using elites again, I suggest we use it for an army and chuck an elite* horse in it, then fill it up with knights later.

I'm thinking we now roll our Cats south and start razing Greek cities. I think we should throw in quite a few settlers in our build and start filling in the gaps as soon as we bring down a couple of Greek cities. I'm building a road in the mountains S of Byzanths. This will make it possible for our Cats to cross over the mountains. If you think this is stupid, I really don't care if we go somewhere else, but we should start eliminating the AIs soon. We're strong compared to everybody!

I'm thinking we should heal the army and send it out to raze the resources of our neighbours.
We're still capable of trading with the eastern continent and I think if they get chivalry before we get invention that we should go broke for a pure GPT-deal with them for Chivalry and then declare on that civ straight away. Our rep is out the window anyway.

There's a settler in the S that I'd like to see build a city N in the bay that it's close to, 3 or 4 squares away from Neocaledonium.

There's a lot of forces in the N close to where Liverpool used to be. I didn't have much probs with the AI during my turns and I think it's time we push out and start razing them one by one. If someone's going to fill in the gaps, make sure it's either the weakest civs or civs that will have high corruption, America, for instance.

If we get Chivalry, a Knights army may be good.

Edit: Sorry for not cutting the image. I didn't notice it until I uploaded and I need to be out in the sun now. This is our first really good day of summer this year :(

Nicely done. That's 3 GLs in 10 turns. Army, Heroic Epic and a spare GL.
The cat's made getting elite promotions easy and safe!

What about using the leader for Sun Tsu's? A free barracks in every town could be very useful. It would save us about 12 to 15GPT in maintenance. Given that Leo's and Invention is a long way off (40+ turns) we could save up to 600 gold by having Sun Tzu's.

Why do we have captured workers? I think the rules say we have to disband them, on the square they are captured in.

Edit: I agree with filling in some more settlers. The free maintenance would help!

Adrian

Well done, Captain :goodjob: But have we blown the variant with those slaves? :eek: If so we're gonna have to re-evaluate our strategy big time!

Roster:

Klarius
AdrianE
Capt Buttkick
leif erikson UP
AlanH On deck

BTW If we raze cities and AI setters turn up can't we just kill' 'em or raze their new cities? What's the big deal?

Alan

I think if we correct the worker thing quickly (ie before the workers complete anything) m-b might forgive us.

Smackster's spoiler posting indicated that they missed a DoW by a few turns. They fixed that as soon as it was noticed. If we do the same, it should be fine.

Adrian

I hope you're right, which is why I continued with the discussion about razing cities and killing settlers. How long have they been our slaves. If they haven't completed any work we should stop them and disband them immediately. If they did complete something I guess we ought to pillage it.

Are you out there m-b? What's the ruling?

[EDIT] PS I've PM'd mad-bax.

I hope you're right, which is why I continued with the discussion about razing cities and killing settlers. How long have they been our slaves. If they haven't completed any work we should stop them and disband them immediately. If they did complete something I guess we ought to pillage it.

Are you out there m-b? What's the ruling?

[EDIT] PS I've PM'd mad-bax.
Looks to me like the Capt got them when he killed a settler on turn 8. However, that would account for only 2 of them. I can't find where the others came from.

I've got it by the way. I think I should wait until I hear where we are and what is going to happen on the ruling.

BTW Capt - I told you that you were the Great Leader God :worship: 3 in one turn set :cool: I hope we can keep pumping them out, too bad we can't trade them for a tech!! :lol: :lol:

edit - Found them, Capt captured a settler on his first turn! :eek:

Damn! Forgot about the foreign worker ban :(
The Bab ones in the S haven't done anything. I think there's another couple in the N doing a chop. If so, they haven't completed any work yet so diband them, please...

@ Leif. I know you did. Pity this doesn't work in my own games :sad: :lol:

@ Adrian. Leo's is 11 turns away and not all AIs have it by now so I think it may go down further.

I just checked the save. There are four altogether. From the turnlog it looks like the first two were a captured settler on turn 1 and the second pair were the ones leif spotted in the turnlog at turn 8. There's a pair on a mountain working the catapult road to Greece, and a pair on a chop in the north with one turn to go. So it looks like neither pair have completed anything. If we disband them immediately we'll just lose the time we might have had our own workers doing that work.

That's what I thought too.
Again, I'm sorry. Thanks for taking the trouble, Alan. I'm w/o my Civ atm so couldn't do it myself.

I just checked the save. There are four altogether. From the turnlog it looks like the first two were a captured settler on turn 1 and the second pair were the ones leif spotted in the turnlog at turn 8. There's a pair on a mountain working the catapult road to Greece, and a pair on a chop in the north with one turn to go. So it looks like neither pair have completed anything. If we disband them immediately we'll just lose the time we might have had our own workers doing that work.
I also checked the save and we can disband only two during pre-flight. Those are the two that are chopping and it must be done because they will complete their work during the inter-turn. This is no problem. The other two were just moved onto the mountain and have used all their movement points, thus I cannot access their menu. They can be disbanded on my first turn, unless there is a way to do it that I don't know about. If this is OK, then that is what I will do when I begin tomorrow evening, it is too late now. :p Too many potential mistakes!! :rolleyes:

Other than that, what do we need to work on next? Noticed that to get to Invention in 11, we will lose 25 GPT for those 11 turns. OK by me, as I think we need to rush it, if that is what we agree to do? That is a chunk of change...

Ref: Tech - The Iroquois and the Japanese need Feudalism and Enginering and the Indians need Engineering to be on tech par with us. I thought is might be a good idea to gift Feudalism to the Iroquois and Japanese to entice them towards Monotheism and Chivalry. Don't know if it'll work, but it keeps them form wasting time on Feudalism. We need thier research help. I don't think I want ot give them Engineering becuase they may go for Invention instead, besides The Aztecs have the same as us and could trade it to them.

Are we ready to begin working up to the north, pillaging and destroyinmg as we go, or do we wait for Knights? Thanks!! :D

I'm not sure what we'd need the cash for atm. We haven't got that many horses to upgrade once we get chivalry, and besides I feel we need to do a min research some time before MT anyway.

m-b has spoken. We can disband and continue. Don't feel bad, Captain, apparently we are not the first :p

Re research perhaps we should plough on towards Astronomy? Knights and Astronomy might be enough to sort out the other continent - I seem to recall a SirPleb game where that was his route. If we can finish this with Knights then Leo's will only save us 300 gold I think - 15 horses at 20 each? Is there a better use for our leader?

It does seem as if the English don't know how to use the Lighthouse :hmm: It looks like we'll have a little longer before the two continents meet, so we may be able to use late contact trading to grab some techs before they get to Astronomy.

In my experience the AI don't need any encouragement to go after Feudalism - they love those pikes - but I guess we could accelerate them by gifting it. We need to slow the tech pace on our own continent. I recommend we go after the English asap, as they are the leaders.

Sun Tsu's will be VERY useful in our offensive campaign. Since we can't capture cities, we won't acquire any forward barracks in which to heal our units. Just plant a settler and voila instant barracks. Sun Tsu's will help us with a war. More importantly it will deny it to an AI. The Ai's are sending mostly regular units. We don't want a big one to suddenly start sending veteran units do we?

Sun Tsu's seems an obvious and very necessary build.

With Heroic epic and the militaristic trait what is our chance of getting a GL with each elite win? We have many elites so we may get another GL to build Leos.

Can we sell Feudalism to the other continent to those who don't have it? I would hate to just give it away.

I agree with Adrian. We could get Sun Tzu now and liberate our elites to try for another leader. I think it's much more useful than Leo's - I don't see us needing Cavalry if we do it right.

Good reasoning Adrian, I also agree with Sun Tzu's as a Barracks in each town will be important for healing the troops in the hinterlands.

With regard to Feudalism, I don't think they have anything to give us for it. More important is reaching Chivalry and getting our own Knights ravaging the countryside! :banana: asap...

I can begin moving our forces towards England. Do you think that we could also move a small force into French territory to pillage and set the French back as we have with Greece. I would like to dismantle our wall by swinging it north and west, cleaning out the mountains and moving it forward. In French territory, they can defend and harrass, in English territory, they can destroy. The whole point would be to move our defense line towards the other civs and try to keep a larger area free of ai so we can begin colonizing a larger area. Of course, we would need a force to keep the Greeks at bay as well and a smaller force to keep and eye on our core, although as we produce more units, they can serve to stomp on any AI trying to get around our defenses. :hammer:

If this general idea is ok, I'll play this evening. If not and we need more discussion, then I will wait until we figure it out. :thumbsup:

Good thinking. We can move the front line to the range of hills and mountains north of the VoD, it's almost continuous from coast to coast.

The easiest way to keep the Greeks at bay is to eliminate them :D I maintain that empty space is easy to keep clear using a small mobile police force, as new cities will be manned by a single escort and can be destroyed before they even have time to produce another unit. Whereas mature Greek cities are capable of delivering more units to harass us.

Good thinking. We can move the front line to the range of hills and mountains north of the VoD, it's almost continuous from coast to coast.

The easiest way to keep the Greeks at bay is to eliminate them :D I maintain that empty space is easy to keep clear using a small mobile police force, as new cities will be manned by a single escort and can be destroyed before they even have time to produce another unit. Whereas mature Greek cities are capable of delivering more units to harass us.
I love it when you talk to me like that!! :love: :lol:

So, we will modify the orders for the eastern force to begin the destruction of the Greeks instead of simply harrassing them.

I know I shouldn't ask this, given my history with the RNG :cry: , but should any more Great Leaders present themselves, what would we like to use them for? Reading the spoiler thread, I would hate to keep them around waiting when we could probably get a couple of more. :rolleyes:

I try to be hopeful!?!? :lol: :lol: :lol:

As Adrian says ... Heroic Epic woud be good. So I would build an army with the next leader and load up some legions. We'll have three elite stars by then - the two that produced Trajan and Germanicus, and the next one, so put them in it. A 15 hit point legion army can pretty well go anywhere, pillaging, razing. As soon as it wins a battle we can start the Heroic Epic - it's probably a hand build. After that we should be making more leaders. If there's a wonder available let's take it, either for its own sake or to deprive the AI. Otherwise let's build legion armies so that they'll continue to be useful after legions are obsolete as individual units. Now that I think about it, it might be worth keeping the size of armies down to two units on our home continent, as if we hope to finish this game with knights and caravels we won't be able to transport a three-unit army in a caravel. but we can move a two unit army to the other continent and then load it up with an extra unit when it gets there.

Alan

The Captain *ALREADY* built us the Heroic epic in 150AD.

That's why I think the leader we have should be used for Sun Tzu's. We should get more leaders with the epic already built (if the RNG smiles on us).

Adrian

Guys

I'll be offline from tomorrow noon until Monday PM. If last weekend is anything to go by, it will be my turn again by then.

Adrian

The Captain *ALREADY* built us the Heroic epic in 150AD.
Whoops! Shows how hard I've been concentrating :( That's great. So we build Sun Tzu, then go hunting more leaders for Wonders and armies.

That schedule sounds good. We did rush a little last weekend, so you may not be into the hot seat instantly when you get back on Monday. Have a good weekend.

I'm currently sitting in Los Angeles in a hotel room in front of a TV set with internet connection. I can neither see screenshots nor load the save.
But I still think our next big action should be to establish a second core in some nice land (prefered near the current english core).
So a leader could jump the palace, if we can establish and defend a nice city location.
This could give a nice boost to our commerce and by that to our ability to research.
I consider Sun Tsu something nice to have, but not really vital.

Though it may well be possible to finish this with knights, I still like cav better. We have still a lot cities to raze and big distances to cover. Cavs are just more efficient and typically lead then to a fast finish.
Looks like I will be back at home by saturday afternoon and then we'll see how the jet lag will work out. I sure will check in the forum for some discussion, but may not be completely awake. :)

Hi Klarius :wavey:

I love cavalry too, but our objective is a fast finish. We have a lot of expensive research to do to get to MT and it appears we'll get no assistance from the other continent. Meanwhile our local AI enemies could be forging ahead by trading techs. I really think we have an opportunity to dominate the home continent before we reach cavalry, and we should not let the locals get any more powerful by delaying. Yes, a knight moves at 2/3 the speed of a cavalry, but that only represents 5 or 6 turns of extra movement time across these land masses. Research to cavalry will take a lot longer than 5 or 6 turns, and while we do it we let our enemies get stronger.

I agree that should place a high priority on building the second core as we wipe the local civs out because that will allow us to build our forces and boats for the second phase. But I think they have to happen in parallel, not sequentially. I don't see a conflict. We need a couple of cities to keep churning out settlers to build a dozen cities in England, and some workers will be needed to extend the development there, but we should have a reasonable number of developed tiles in place when we settle. The rest of our production can continue to feed the war machne.

Sorry, only got 5 turns done this evening and it is getting late. Don't need dumb mistakes, make enough as it is, so I'll finish tomorrow evening. :blush:

Short update.
Disbanded the required workers right off. We also have Sun Tzu's. Unfortunately, no more Great Leaders so far, but a ton of elite wins. I need a new RNG, please?? :cry:
There are settlers going everywhere, all trying to get to southern Greece. The log will show the number I have destroyed and the workers disbanded, it kills me to dump them all, but those are the rules.;)

Two things.
1. Knights are starting to show up. An English Knight killed an Elite Legion fortified on a hill, so I killed him and his partner. But lost a Vet Legion doing so. Now I am starting to see German Knights coming over the hill. Could be tough on our Legions. I started to send our Legion Army towards England but have stopped it for now because of the knights and the inability to heal it if wounded in enemy territory.

2. Our friends over on the other continent have discovered Monotheism. However, they won't trade it without allowing Contact with England so I have not made the deal. We are 7 turns from Invention, but I was hoping to trade that for Chivalry. If we do a GPT deal, that will slow Invention. Any advise?

@ Alan - The AI on our continent probably are at least 3 to 4 techs ahead now. They have had Invention since my first turn. Russia and Greece wanted peace so I checked them out while we were discussing it and Russia showed up with Monotheism and Invention. We know they have Chivalry as they are fielding Knights (I've seen English and German). Greece only had Monotheism, so they are behind us actually.

BTW - Hope you are well Klarius? Care to stop in Boston on your way home and teach me how to play this game?? :lol: Have a safe trip and jet lag is tough heading home for you, been there many times... :crazyeye:

I am hoping that the English will cross to the other continent before we get invention, trading the easteners Chivalry. We can then probably get Chivalry in a straight tech for tech deal from one of the eastern civs.

Leif, you should do the trade for mono.
Contact between the continents can happen anyways soon.
Also only by them trading with our continent, we can hope to trade for some more techs with them. So just do it now and by that also get a few gp in the other comm trades.

RE: jet lag.
I'm in US about 2-3 times a year, so I have some experience.
It will take me a week or so to get over it completely.
But the "good" thing in the meantime is that one is awake at times where one cannot do anything else than playing civ or surfing the net. ;)

I agree. We should trade the contacts now and hope to be able to get Chivalry through the otehr continent.

Don't be too concerned about the AI knights. The AI doesn't build a lot of offensive units, so we'll probably see them trickle along in ones and twos. If we can seriously weaken England then it looks as if our main rival will be Germany, but they are quite a long way away.

Once we can get chivalry we should be able to hit them with our knights before they hit us if we choose the terrain and ensure we have backup troops to deal with any counters.

The problem of healing in enemy territory goes away when you remove the enemy territory. Razing cities'll do that for you :D

I think I am hearing that we should allow contact between the eastern civs and England? If we really want that to happen, should we time it so that it happens a turn or 2 before we get Invention? England and most of the other civs on our continent already have Invention and I fear they will trade our only valuable commodity to the east, leaving us unable to obtain Chivalry. Our GPT rep is shot and with contact will be told to the eastern civs. I don't see how we will get a GPT deal. So what will we have to trade that the eastern civs will find valuable?

I checked the F4 screen each turn and thought we would be able to trade Engineering for Monotheism as only the Aztecs had Engineering. Then Monotheism was available and they all have it, including Engineering, except India, who also doesn't have Monotheism yet. I am inclined to wait a couple of turns to see what happens with India and hope for a trade there first. Of course, with our luck, England will land there in 2 turns, but I think our best hope lay in remaining the tech broker for as long as possible.

Does that make any sense? :crazyeye:

So you're saying we are currently up Engineering on India, and down Mono with the rest of the new world? I assume we are also down to under 200 gold now as well if we have been continuing to run a deficit? Have you tried turning our sliders off before asking them what they want for Mono? I can't test it 'cos I don't have a save where they've got mono.

Assuming they still don't ask for gpt, our options are:

1) We trade a contact for Mono. They then all trade contacts and techs around, Chivalry becomes available, but they have Invention as well. Our rep is in the trash, so we have nothing to trade for Chivalry.

2) We trade contact for Mono and also trade all the contacts to all the new world to clean out their treasuries and leave them with nothing to trade with thir new contacts except their maps. All they had at 250 AD was about 60 gold. I doubt if they have much more now. Will they be able to get Chivalry, but not Invention, for their maps?

3) Your proposal: We wait and hope that they don't meet England, that they will research Chivalry, and that we can trade Invention for Mono and Chivalry, and maybe get a two-fer with Engineering or Mono with India, using gpt if available.

None of the options look promising, but given the situation it looks like option 3 is the only hope we have. Contact kills our only assets - gpt and Invention. Since England has not cotacted the new world yet I don't think they are going to now until Astronomy, but that may not be far away.

Not everybody on the other continent will be able to afford many techs. I doubt that all will get engineering. So there's a good chance that we still can trade.
Brokering between the continents is anyways not possible.
Another point is, if some of them get engineering this will speed up our research towards it, or we may buy it cheap. Then there could still be the broker chance.
One could also try a really devious plan.
Pay with gpt and communication now and don't DoW them. They will use our gpt to buy more techs. DoW them on the next turn and they will probably end up with deficit spending for some time and can weaken this civ quite a bit (may even lead to intercontinental war).

Still I would say best just trade now and milk also the others for all their gold. I don"t think that a map is worth more than one tech between AI civs. So most likely the others will not have engineering.

I don't like the idea of trading contacts at all. If we trade contacts, the worlds tech pace goes up a lot. The east has fully developed infrastructure. With advanced tech they become problematic. We eventually have to go to war with the east. It is best to keep them as backwards as us for as long as possible.

Japan and India will research Chivalry asap. Their UU's require it.

Leif I'd send the army into English territory. Give it a 1 horse escort. Horse moves for 1 and pillages. Army covers it. I have rarely seen the AI attack an army. I think it will evaluate the legion army as having a defense of 9 so it won't attack it.

The east's maps will be worth a fortune. They will likely get a tech or two for their maps.

Alan's option 3 is best for now, IMO.

Adrian

Not everybody on the other continent will be able to afford many techs. I doubt that all will get engineering. So there's a good chance that we still can trade.
They will if we leave them with the other contacts, and as AdrianE says we can't neutralise the trading value of their maps. That's very powerful.

Brokering between the continents is anyways not possible.
Another point is, if some of them get engineering this will speed up our research towards it, or we may buy it cheap. Then there could still be the broker chance.I think we already have Engineering. I guess you mean Invention? Leif indicates we are only two turns away now.


One could also try a really devious plan.
Pay with gpt and communication now and don't DoW them. They will use our gpt to buy more techs. DoW them on the next turn and they will probably end up with deficit spending for some time and can weaken this civ quite a bit (may even lead to intercontinental war).We can only do that if we can persuade them to accept gpt. We aren't allowed to negotiate, so I'm not sure how we do that if they don't offer Mono for gpt up front. That was the reason I asked Leif if he'd tried with the sliders set to zero.

Still I would say best just trade now and milk also the others for all their gold. I don"t think that a map is worth more than one tech between AI civs. So most likely the others will not have engineering.So you vote for option 2) - it really comes down to an assessment of the buying power of the new world maps.

@Alan
The other important point is how high one estimates the risk that contact is done w/o our intervention.
If England contacts India, India will get very rich by map and contact trading. The others will have to stay behind and will not be able to afford anything. India will be our only feasible trading partner, unless we gift the others to be able to do some useful research.

It's my belief that if England was going to contact the other continent using the Lighthouse they'd have done it immediately. They didn't, so I have to assume that the software is broken, and they don't know it's possible. I've never known the AI to delay once they have the capability to go to another land mass.

If I'm right then they will not do so until Astronomy is researched.

Sorry I did not attach the save earlier because this is an important juncture. For Klarius' benefit, I will also attempt to spell it out because I know he can not read or use the save.

The situation.
Us - Rome.
We have completed Engineering and Feudalism and have 6 more turns until we discover Invention. Our treasury is currently 291 Gold.

Aztecs. Have all the techs we have plus Monotheism and 56 Gold. They are annoyed with us.

Iroquois. Have all the techs we have plus Monotheism and 1 Gold. They are annoyed with us.

Japanese. Have all the techs we have plus Monotheism and 0 (none) Gold. They are annoyed with us.

Indians. They do not have Monotheism or Engineering and have 18 Gold. They are cautious towards us.

Our rivals on the continent pretty much have Invention, Chivalry and, perhaps, more. I can only see those techs. Greeks and Babs are not that far advanced. England and Germany are for sure.

If I ask for a trade with any of the 3 civs with Monotheism, they will tell me that they will take the deal for Contact with England, World Map plus around 150 Gold. I have been unable to get them to offer a GPT deal.

It is my feeling that should we trade contact with them, they will get Invention for their maps or something else, contact with each other perhaps. If they get Invention, then we have nothing left to bargain with, especially since our rep will be spread across the known universe! :rolleyes: No GPT either.

I think that we can trade contacts for Chivalry, that's OK by me. But we have to find a way to get both Monotheism and Chivalry given the situation before us.

The reason I wrote in the first place was because we went from having an advantage in Engineering with Japan, India and Iroquois, Aztecs had it, to being in the hole for Monotheism in one turn.

Now India is the only hope left and I think we should wait at least a turn or two to see if India gets both Engineering and Monotheism in trade, or only Monotheism. If so, we can trade Engineering to them. If they get both, we are in trouble because we will never get Chivalry and Monotheism for Invention, I don't think at least.

Well, now you can have a look and see what you think. Thanks!! :crazyeye:

OK I 've checked the trading options. Even if we turn the sliders down to zero and have 67gpt to spend the AI will ask for contact plus cash for Mono rather than gpt. Not a surprise really but I wanted to check.

I've also read the rules again. As I interpret the rules we cannot say "What would you give me for 50gpt?" Fact is they'd give us Mono, but it's irrelevant.

I'm still in favour of option 3.

Now another contentious issue: I question our excessive speed towards Invention at negative gpt. Given that any future deals will be cash in hand, we need a cash mountain. If we turn science down to 10% or even off we can make over 60 gpt. We'll soon have enough to buy the techs we need. Klarius said it - buying techs is always cheaper at Emperor than researching them.

We ran Invention at max because we thought Leo's would be a good idea, and I agreed. I'm no longer convinced of its value to us. At -17gpt instead of +68 gpt we'll be 480 gold down on our current position in 6 turns. At 50% savings on upgrades we'd need to spend 1000 gold on upgrades just to break even on this cost of Leo's. If we get to cavalry we can moan about the high cost of upgrades, but rght now we need cash to buy much earlier techs and we don't have it. Leo's is not even a great one to deny the enemy, as they don't do upgrades much.

I agree with your logic concerning Leo's and cost of upgrade. I was actually viewing Invention as a bargaining chip with our eastern neighbors to get Chivalry. If it doesn't suit that purpose and Leo's isn't a great deal, we should turn the slider down. I have not checked the timing of Invention's finish at 10%., but will and decide what to do. Someone completed research on Monotheism a turn ago and they traded around, except for India. So, I will keep my eye out, they shouldn't have Chivalry for at least 10 turns or so, should they. We have that much time for completion of Invention, unless England finds their way, then we will need the cash anyway.

I reread the rules on trading and agree with your assessment, can't ask what for GPT. I assume this means that I should continue using option 3 as my guide and, if I need to trade contacts to get Chivalry, I will do so.

Thanks for the discussion. Will begin completion of this in an hour or so. Will check back before starting.

You can research Invention in 10 turns at +20gpt or 16 turns at +36gpt or 30 turns at +46gpt, or 31 turns with a scientist at +65gpt.

We've put a lot of cash into invention so I'd advice turning it off completely.
I agree that option 3 seems to be our best bet now.
As for further research: we need to choose our tech path and agree on it before invention is finished (I thought we had agreed on MT, but what do I know :lol: ). I still think MT is a good idea so lone scientist towards MT is my vote. Meanwhile we need to get knights...

We've put a lot of cash into invention so I'd advice turning it off completely.Not sure I understand ... you mean lone scientist or really zero? Or is there a negative missing from that sentence?
(I thought we had agreed on MT, but what do I know :lol: ). I still think MT is a good idea so lone scientist towards MT is my vote. Meanwhile we need to get knights...I agree on both counts. But if we turn research off completely we'll never need to choose another project as we'll never finish Invention.

I'm waiting for my plane on LAX.
Having nothing constructive to say, let's propose option X. ;)
We are xenophobic, so we need no steenkin aliens. :eek:
Declare war on everybody immediately. We will research everything we need ourselves. :cool:

Part 1.
Here it comes. Sorry it is long, but a lot of combat. I cover it in the After Action Report but, imho, there are 2 things we need to do.

1. Get Chivalry!! I think we all know that.
2. We need to get some more lux's. The Capt started a road to Athens and we are getting close. I also started one north towards Corinth.

Pre-flight
No Music – someone must have turned it off, so I turn it on. Ahhh, the sweet melody of the Middle Ages!! :rockon:
Activate the Babylonian Workers chopping near Lutetia and disband them. The other 2 Babylonian Workers were moved so I will disband them next turn.
Neapolis must have just produced something as there are no shields in its production box, so I change production from Legion to Sun Tzu’s.
Wake Germanicus in Rome and move him to Neapolis and rush Sun Tzu’s.
Visit with our friends the Iroquois and trade Feudalism to them in return for World Map plus 30 Gold (all he had).
Visit our friends the Japanese and trade Feudalism to them in return for World Map and 12 Gold (all he had).
Everything else looks good, so I press enter.

IBT
There are a lot of settlers of all nations heading past our units towards Greece.
Bab Bowmen and Spear come into the VoD.
2 Russian swordsmen move to the hill beside Gonzomonium, one Reg and one Vet.
Veii Legion – Horseman.
Antium Legion – Legion.
We have built Sun Tzu’s Art of War in Neapolis – Legion.
Pisae Legion – Legion.
Lutetia Legion – Legion.
We are notified that the Greek are building Sistine Chapel, the French Leonardo’s Workshop, the English Leonardo’s Workshop, the Russians Leonardo’s Workshop, the Germans Sistine Chapel and the Americans Sistine Chapel.


Turn 141 – 260 AD
Disband the 2 Babylonian Workers.
Around Byzantium
Awaken Cat and Bombard American Spear protecting a settler.
1st Cat – Bombardment failed
2nd Cat – Spear loses 1 HP.
3rd Cat – Spear redlined.
4th Cat attacks Greek Archer – failed.
5th Cat – failed.
6th Cat – failed.
Wake Vet Legion and attack Reg. Amer. Spear – Defeats Spear with no loss and workers are disbanded.
Wake Vet Legion in Byzantium and attack Reg. Greek Archer – defeat Archer losing 1 HP.
Moving on – Wake Legion on Horse near Sparta and move S to intercept American Spear with Settler.
Around Gonzomonium – 2 Russian Swords (1 Reg., 1 Vet.) are on the hill to the NW.
1st Cat – failed.
2nd Cat – failed.
3rd Cat – hit for 1 HP.
4th Cat – failed.
5th Cat – failed.
Wake Elite Legion and attack Reg. Sword – Legion dies, redlining the Sword.
Wake Elite Legion and attack Vet Sword (3/4) – defeat sword without loss.
Wake Elite Horse and attack Reg Sword (1/3) – defeat Sword but lose 3 HP – No Ldr – return to city and fortify.
I want to begin moving the wheel to the north in the mountains but there are several spears guarding settlers that I have to wait for them to enter favorable terrain (off the mountain).

IBT
American settlers moving S of Athens.
I miss a worker threatened by a Bab Spear and lose on to him. Darn it!!
Greek Archers moving along mountains headed for Cumae.
Rome Legion – Settler.
Pompeii Legion – Horseman.
Ravena Legion – Horseman.
Lugdunum Legion – Legion.

Turn 142 – 270 AD
Around Gonzomonium
1st Cat S and attack Reg. Bab Spear – Take 1 HP.
2nd Cat S and attack – Takes 1 HP, Spear redlined.
Wake Elite Legion in Viroconium and attack Redlined Spear – defeat spear, no loss, no GL.
Around Byzantium
Vet Legion attacks Reg. Russian Spear guarding Settler on Plains – Legion loses, doing 1 HP damage and Spear promotes.
Vat Legion attacks same Spear – defeats Spear losing 1 HP and promotes to Elite. Workers disbanded.
Around Lutetia
Wake Elite Horse and attack a Reg. English Archer on plains – defeat him losing 1 HP.
Found town of Aesonesium – worker.
Change lux slider to 10% as Viroconium grew to size 7.

IBT
Greek Archer take a turn to the N, remaining on mountains.
More units move into the VoD.
Cumae Legion – worker.
Virconium Legion – Settler.
Neocaledonium Worker – Worker.

Turn 143 – 280 AD
Around Gonzomonium
1st Cat Bombs a French Archer – takes 1 HP.
2nd Cat – takes another HP, redlines him.
Vet Legion destroys the French Reg. Archer with no loss.
Wake Cats in Gonzomonium to take on a Reg Russian Spear.
1st Cat – failed.
2nd Cat – takes 1 HP.
3rd Cat – takes 1 HP.
Wake Elite Horseman and attack redlined Spear – destroy Spear, no loss, no GL, return to Gonzomonium.
In the VoD. There are 2 Reg. Bab Horseman, 1 Reg. Bab Bowman, 1 Reg. Russian Spear, 1 Reg. German Sword, 1 Vet German Sword, and 1 Reg. English Sword present for destruction. Let’s see if we can do it.
Vet Legion attacks Reg. Bab Bowman – defeats the Bowman losing 1 HP and promotes to Elite.
Vet Legion attacks Reg. Bab Horseman – defeats him with no damage.
Vet Legoin attacks Reg. English Sword – defeats him losing 2 HP and promotes to Elite.
Vet Legion attacks Reg. Russian Spear – is defeated without loss to the Spear?? :eek:
Vet Legion attacks Reg. Russian Spear - defeats him losing 2 HP.
Vet Legion attacks Reg. Bab Horseman – defeats him losing 1 HP.
Elite Legion attacks Vet German Sword – he is defeated while redlining the Sword.
Vet Legion attacks Reg. German Sword – defeats him losing 1 HP.
Elite Horseman attacks redlined Vet German Sword – defeats him without loss, no GL.
Around Byzantium
Vet Legion attacks Reg. Greek Archer – defeats him without loss.
Wake Legion along the northern mountains and begin moving them north and west.
Spot an English Knight near Hannover.
There are also 2 Vet Russian Swords inbound to the VoD.
Assign an MP to Viroconium and change lux slider to 0%.

IBT
4 German units move towards VoD from Hannover. (later identified as a Reg. Pikeman, a Reg. Archer and 2 Vet Swords)
Russia requests an audience – wants to talk peace. She has both Invention and Monotheism, probably Chivalry. She would not give us any techs for peace anyway, what good is she?? I politely tell her that I am not authorized to make such a decision and that she should send her request in writing in 6 copies, etc.
I see some Russian settler leaving Tblisi heading to the E.
The Greeks have requested an audience – They want peace. The have only Monotheism (perhaps Chivalry) and would trade it to us, but they get the same answer as Cathy did!
Veii Horseman – Horseman.
Antium riots, missed it.
Hispalis riots – missed it as well.
Pompeii Horseman – Horseman.

Turn 144 – 290 AD
Around Antium
Vet Legion attacks Reg. Greek Archer – defeats him with no loss.
Vet Archer attacks a Reg. Greek Archer – defeats him losing 1 HP.
Vet Horseman attacks Reg. Greek Archer – defeats him losing 1 HP, returns to Byzantium.
Move another unit into Antium and Hispalis, thus no lux slider needed.
There are 2 Reg. English Knights now in sight.
The Aztecs now have Monotheism but want almost all our Gold, World Map and contact with the English. I tried to work a deal but decided to wait until it got traded around over there as we still have Engineering that only the Aztecs have and we also have Invention due in 7 turns.

IBT
An Reg. English Knight defeats a Vet Legion on a hill west of Syracuse, losing 1 HP.
German Vet Knight comes into view near Hannover.
Rome settler – Legion.
Order restored in Antium, starvation in Antium (Greek Archers on the Wheat), and produces Legion – Legion.
Cumae Worker – Legion.
Neapolis Legion – Legion.
Pisae Legion – Legion.
Order restored in Hisalis, produces Legion – Worker.

Turn 145 – 300 AD
Around Antium
Vet Legion attacks Reg. Greek Archer – defeats him losing 1 HP, no promotion.
Vet Horseman attacks Reg. Greek Archer – defeats him losng 2 HP, move back into Antium and fortifies.
Wake Vet Legion on a mountain above Antium and he attacks a Reg. Greek Archer on a mountain (doing this to prevent Greeks denying use of Antium’s wheat) – defeat him losing 1 HP and promoting to Elite.
MM Antium.
In the area west of Syracuse, the western part of the VoD (maybe ours with all these Knights)
Vet Legion attacks Reg. English Knight (2/3) – Legion is defeated and Knight promotes after losing 1 HP (2/4).
Vet Horseman attacks 2/4 Knight – Defeats him without loss (I finally got a good RNG roll). :goodjob:
Vet Legion attacks Reg. English Knight – Legion is defeated after redlining the Knight.
Elite Legion attacks redlined Knight – defeats him with no loss or GL.
Elite Legion attacks Reg. English Spear with a settler – defeats him without loss or GL, workers disbanded.
Near Gonzomonium
Wake some Cats to bombard a Reg. French Sword.
1st Cat – failed.
2nd Cat – failed.
3rd Cat – failed.
4th Cat – takes 1 HP.
5th Cat – failed.
Wake Elite Legion and attack Reg (2/3) French Sword – defeat him without loss or GL.
Wake Legion Army and begin movement to English territory.
Around Tblisi
Vet Legion attacks Reg. Russian Spear defending Tblisis – defeats him losing 3 HP.
Vet Legion attacks Reg. Russian Spear – Legion is defeated without loss to the Spear.
Vet Legion attacks Reg. Russian Spear – defeats him, losing 2 HP and promoting to Elite.
Tblisi is razed and Russian worker is disbanded.
Vet Legion attacks Reg. French Spear – Legion loses without loss to the Spear.
Vet Legion attacks the same Spear – defeats him losing 1 HP.
Near Byzantium
Vet Legion attacks Reg. American Spear guarding a settler – defeats the Spear losing 2 HP and the workers are disbanded.
Now Japan and Iroquois have Monotheism but refuse to trade it without Contact with The English, Wm and all our Gold. Somehow they have managed to get Engineering as well, cramping my trading style! Now only India has neither Monotheism nor Engineering, perhaps next turn we can get it.

Break for discussion
Based upon our forum discussion, change research slider to 30%, plus 10 GPT and Invention in 10 turns.
Decide to try option 3, remaining the tech broker for now, at least until we can successfully get Chivalry.
Lastly, wake a Vet Horseman in Gonzomonium and move him in with the Legion Army as Scout and prime pillager, per Adrian’s advice.

Part 2.

IBT
Vet German Knight attacks Elite Legion and loses 3 HP and retreats, Legion suffered 1 HP damage.
English Reg. Knight moves up.
German SoD breaks up, Reg. Pikeman moves east towards core, 2 Vet Swords and 1 Reg Archer move west towards our Elite Legions.
Viroconium Settler – Legion.
Lutetia Legion – Legion.
Pompeii Horse – Horse.

Turn 146 – 310 AD
Around Byzantium
Vet Legion attacks Reg. Greek Archer – defeats him losing 1 HP and promotes to Elite.
Around Lutetia
Vet Legion attacks Reg. English Spear – Legion is defeated, causing 2 HP damage to the Spear.
Vet Legion attacks same Spear – defeats him without loss.
Legion Army moves on Paris, enroute to England.
Visit India – still no Monotheism and we have Engineering and he does not.

IBT
No attacks but the VoD is heating up again.
German units move back towards our core.
Starting to see English Longbowmen.
Interestingly, I spotted another English Knight and the 2 of them are headed towards our Army.
Veii Horse – Legion.
Hispalis Worker – Legion.
Lugdunum Legion – Legion.
Syracuse Legion – Legion.
Lunacantorium Harbor – Legion.

Turn 147 – 320 AD
Around Gonzomonium
Wake some Cats.
Move S and SW, bombard Reg. German Pike
1st Cat – Takes 1 HP.
2nd Cat – Takes 1 HP
Wake Elite Horse and attack redlined Pike – defeat Pike losing 3 HP, No GL.
Around Byzantium
Wake Cat, move SE and bombard Reg Greek Archer –
1st Cat – Takes 1 HP.
2nd Cat – Takes 1 HP (my lucky turn)
Wake Vet Legion and move SE and attack Reg. Greek Archer (1/3) – defeats him, no loss.
Near Paris – Vet Horse pillages FP square. Legion Army moves to cover Horse.
Checking Eastern Neighbors – Price is going down but insist on contact with Germans. India still has neither Engineering nor Monotheism. Just for fun, I ask the Aztecs what they will give for contact with the Germans. They answer World Map, 10 GPT and 40 Gold (out of 45 Gold).

IBT
Russian Vet Knight attacks Elite Legion and dies, legion loses 1 HP.
English Reg. Knight attacks the same Elite Legion (4/5) and defeats him, losing 1 HP.
German SoD, now 3 units moves into the kill zone.
Russian Vet Swords (2) move into kill zone as well.
Rome Legion – Settler.
Antium Legion – Legion.
Pompeii Horse – Horse.
Byzantium Legion – Legion.

Turn 148 – 330 AD
Around Byzantium – We now have a clear road to move Cats on Athens. I wake them and begin the move. SE, S and SE.
Move Legions out SE, S and SE for a move towards Athens.
Around Gonzomonium
Move Cats back into Gonzomonium and bombard American Reg. Pike.
1st Cat – Takes 1 HP.
2nd Cat – fails.
3rd Cat – fails.
4th Cat – fails.
5th Cat – fails.
Decide not to attack Pike on a mountain (too long odds), next turn we can get him unless he moves off.
Settler founds the town of Ceaseraugustus. Production set to Form as a pre-build for legion once road is hooked up.
Near Paris Horse moves NW and pillages FP square. Legion Army moves up to cover.
Around Lutetia and the southern VoD.
Elite Legion attacks Reg. English Knight (2/3) – Knight is redlined and retreats.
Elite Legion attacks Vet German Sword – defeats him without loss or GL.
Elite Legion attacks Vet German Sword – Elite Legion is defeated but redlines the Sword.
Elite Horseman attacks Reg. German Archer – defeats him without loss or GL.
Elite Horse attacks redlined Vet German Sword (1/4) – defeats him without loss or GL.
Vet Legion attacks a Reg. German Spear – defeats him without loss.
Vet Legion attacks a Vet Russian Sword – Legion is defeated inflicting 2 HP loss.
Vet Legion attacks Vet Russian Sword (second in stack) – Legion is redlined but defeats Sword, no promotion.
Vet Legion attacks wounded Russian Sword (2/4) – defeats him without loss and promotes to Elite.
The Indians have still not obtained Monotheism – this is strange. :confused: Still no contact with our continental rival thus far??
Change production in Hispalis from Legion to Settler.

IBT
A Reg. English Longbowman attacks a Vet Legion and dies, causing no damage.
4 more German units move into the VoD.
I set a trap with some unprotected workers S of Gonzomonium and it attracts a Reg. Bab Bowman and 2 Reg. French Swords.
American build Seattle S of Byzantium.
Neapolis Legion – Legion.
Pisae Legion – Legion.

Turn 149 – 340 AD
Around Gonzomonium – Cats Bombard Swords.
1st Cat – Takes 1 HP.
2nd Cat – Takes 1 HP.
3rd Cat – Takes 1 HP.
4th Cat – Takes 1 HP.
Wake Elite Legion and attack Reg. French Sword (1/3) – Sword dies but causes 2 HP damage and no GL.
Wake Motha Horse and attack Reg. French Sword (1/3) – defeat with no loss and return to city.
Cover workers with an Elite Legion because of 3 Vet German Swords that would kill anything I send after the Bowman.
Around Lutetia and the Southern VoD.
Elite Legion attacks a Reg. French Spear covering a settler – defeats Spear with no loss and disband Workers.
Elite Horse attacks a Reg. English Longbowman – Defeats him with no loss and no GL.
Near Paris, Horse pillages another FP square and Legion Army moves to cover.
Near Seattle a Vet Legion attacks a Reg. Greek Archer – defeats him, loses 2 HP and promotes to Elite.
Near Chartres, a Vet Legion attacks a Reg. French Longbowman – Legion is defeated causing 1 HP of damage.
Vet Legion attacks the same Longbowman – defeats him losing 1 HP, no promotion.
Checking with our Eastern Buds, situation is unchanged.

IBT
The Indians have requested an audience – They want to trade Territory Maps and I refuse them.
The Iroquois have requested an audience – They want to trade their World map for ours plus 4 Gold. They still want contact with the Germans for Monotheism. I refuse.
A Reg. German Longbowman attacks our Elite Legion S of Hannover and dies, causing 2 HP loss.
A Vet German Knight attacks our Elite Horseman and kills him with no damage.
An English Galey offloads a Reg. Longbowman on the wheat next to Syracuse.
Veii Legion – Legion.
Cumae Legion – Legion.
Pompeii Horse – Horse.
Ravenna Horse – Horse.
Viroconium Legion – Legion.

Turn 150 – 350 AD
Around Gonzomonium – Cats bombard a Reg. French Spear
1st Cat – failed.
2nd Cat – failed.
3rd Cat – Takes 1 HP.
4th Cat – failed.
5th Cat – Takes 1 HP.
Elite Legion attacks Reg. French Spear (1/3) – defeats him while losing 1 HP.
Elite Legion attacks Reg. Bab Bowman – defeats him but is redlined in the process, no GL.
Settler founds the town of Palmyra and production is set to Moenia (walls), can be changed.
Around Paris Horse pillages an irrigated BG and Army follows up to cover.
Continue movement of Cats towards Athens.
Vet Horse attacks Reg. English Longbowman near Syracuse – defeats him losing 1 HP and promoting to Elite.
Change production in Ceasaraugustus from Forum to Legion, almost forgot!!
No change in trading status

After Action Report
We are currently 5 turns from Invention, earning +13 GPT and have 368 Gold in the Treasury. Our friends in the East still want contacts for any Monotheism trade. India still hasn’t obtained Monotheism or Engineering. I hope that Invention will show up in time to trade for Monotheism and Chivalry. The problem will be that we will not know whether Chivalry has been discovered in the east until we obtain Monotheism. Three new cities were built during the 10 turns and our Firaxis score is now 528 and we are 7th in scoring.

The town of Tblisi was razed. Athens is in for a similar fate soon as the Cats and Legions approach. A settler in Rome will be available next turn to fill in for Athens if you wish. Our perimeter has been expanded and I think we should continue to do so, driving to the sea in the north and then beginning to work our way west. The VoD has been very active and I expect it will continue to be so. I also expect Palmyra to be an active place for AI attacks. Watch for the odd Galley dropping off Longbowmen or Knights here and there. There were plenty of Elite wins but, alas, my RNG fortune holds true. :cry:

The cities are mostly on the edge of revolt due to happiness issues. We have a lot of units tied up in MP status that we could free by claiming a few more lux’s. There is Incense near Athens and Silks to the north near Corinth. I have worker teams building roads in both directions and they are almost through the mountains.

BTW - Adrian's idea of the horse with the Army works great - Good thinking!! :goodjob:

Please feel free to change anything you feel would bring us closer to victory, I am not proud!! :lol: Good luck and keep ‘em on the run!! :mischief: We need Chivalry!!!! :coffee:
<< The Save >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Xteam_SG003_AD0350_01.SAV)

Well done leif :goodjob: We're in a(nother) difficult phase of this challenge.

Roster:

Klarius On deck
AdrianE
Capt Buttkick
leif erikson
AlanH UP

I've got it and will have a look and post some thoughts before I start. My first reaction is "OMG we have 58 legions. Why aren't we rulers of the world?"

I've got it and will have a look and post some thoughts before I start. My first reaction is "OMG we have 58 legions. Why aren't we rulers of the world?"
When you look at the save, count how many are on MP duty in our cities, keeping the population from unrest. ;)

I have. What a waste!

We seem to be biding our time waiting for knights. Meanwhile we have 58 uniquue units - units with extra powers for their time - many of them sitting on MP duty. When knights arrive we'll be up against muskets. Right now our legions could be reducing that risk by deleting enemy cities. The longer we delay the worse it's going to get.

We need more cities to reduce our unit maintenance cost, and we need to use our UUs befor they are obsolete. We need more settlers to reduce our rioting population and create more cities. I see we have two about to complete. I may make some more.

Time's a-wasting. We should have those legions out razing cities and making room for new Roman ones. Our losses may be high, but they'll be obsolete before we use them at this rate, and they don't upgrade to anything. If using them means upping the lux slider then so be it. If that delays Invention then so be it. Sure we need Chivalry, but not at the expense of letting the AI get so far ahead that knights are obsolete before we build them.

Time's a-wasting. We should have those legions out razing cities and making room for new Roman ones. Our losses may be high, but they'll be obsolete before we use them at this rate, and they don't upgrade to anything. If using them means upping the lux slider then so be it. If that delays Invention then so be it. Sure we need Chivalry, but not at the expense of letting the AI get so far ahead that knights are obsolete before we build them.
This is exactly the point! While I started moving units out, we were set up for defense. The transition to offense will take a few more turns. We have a concentration of troops heading for Greece with Cats. Roads are being built to support movement for reinforcement to the east and north. I think we should also make a concentration of troops to the north and let them swing west after taking out Chartres and Corinth. I started the settlers so we can begin filling in behind the combat units. I wanted those Greek lux real bad, but didn't get there.

The city of Palmyra was built to attract enemy units towards the south and, hopefully, allow for freer action in the north. I don't know if it'll work, but there have been a lot of AI units down there. If we can defend there and the VoD, we should be able to swing around and ravage France and into England?? But the cost will be high and we need roads to move replacement forward.

Good luck Alan, there is much to do!! :thumbsup: :salute:

Not sure I understand ... you mean lone scientist or really zero? Or is there a negative missing from that sentence?
Missing negative, sorry.
I'm not sure what we'd want all this excess gold for at this time. What we need to do is finish invention, trade it for something (hopefully we can get both Mono and Chivalry), then either go high-pace (see later) towards Chivalry or do lone scientist towards MT.

I agree that we need to get more legions out of our cities, so notch up the lux rate and let's roll :rockon: However, I really don't mind if we have 0 gold when we finish Chivalry. At that point we'll probably have to do min research anyway so time Chivalry research (if we have to do it, we might as well get it asap, like I said before, we're not really taking advantage of the suitably placed iron+horses) with that in mind.

:thumbsup: Good luck, Alan :)

I agree that we need to get more legions out of our cities, so notch up the lux rate and let's roll :rockon: However, I really don't mind if we have 0 gold when we finish Chivalry. At that point we'll probably have to do min research anyway so time Chivalry research (if we have to do it, we might as well get it asap, like I said before, we're not really taking advantage of the suitably placed iron+horses) with that in mind.
I wish it were so simple. We don't have a researching infrastructure built, nor do we have many Marketplaces built. The decision then is whether to focus on research or lux? If we ratchet up the lux slider, Chivalry can not be researched quickly. If we try to get a reasonable research time for Chivalry, you can't push up the lux slider. Imho, this is why trading with the east is so important, it makes up for our shortfalls, and getting those Greek luxs is so important. Once we lose the potential to trade, we are up against it. We have a shot at a second chance at a GPT deal and we have to make it count. :eek:

I agree it is time for action, big time, but we should try to focus the action to make it as effective as possible. ;)

@leif: Any reason why we haven't sold our barracks?

Agree on the focusing. My point was that at +23 gpt we should be able to do a bit of both: higher research speed and +10% lux.
Haven't looked at the save, though. Again I'm on the wrong comp...

@leif: Any reason why we haven't sold our barracks?
Only one, I didn't think of it!! :blush:

Agree on the focusing. My point was that at +23 gpt we should be able to do a bit of both: higher research speed and +10% lux.
Haven't looked at the save, though. Again I'm on the wrong comp...
You're right, we can do a bit of both. The research will not be as fast and the city MM will require a little extra work, imho. I am not sure what the optimum size would be (at this point some cities may be different), but we would have to get a settler or worker built before the size is reached or pay a penalty in extra lux tax or a taxman in the city that grows too big. It seems to me that size 6 requires 1 MP, 7 - 2 MP and 8 - 3 MP.

Good luck Alan, much to consider, and sorry about the Barracks! :blush:

Good luck Alan, much to consider, and sorry about the Barracks! :blush:
No problem! I was only worried that I might be missing something - it has been known ;) They weren't costing any maintenance once Sun Tzu was in, and the 30 gold we got for selling them wasn't going to go away, so nothing was lost.

I think I can run 10% lux and roughly break even and still do Invention in 5. As you say we then only need one MP at size 6. Rome is our only city bigger than that, and it has extra happy faces with the Hanging Gardens. I can move one of its spears out to liberate a more productive legion somewhere. I'll try to hold pops at 6 or less at least until we get the incense on line. More settlers and workers!

We have a shot at a second chance at a GPT deal and we have to make it count. :eek:
I don't think we'll have a chance of another gpt deal. If we ask what they want for a tech they'll always say contacts. Once we give them contact they'll not give us anything for gpt.

We have to hope that when we trade for Mono we'll then be able to trade for Chivalry with a contact deal. We could try that right now, using contact for the Mono deal and hoping Chivalry is available on the same turn for another contact or from a different civ, but it's a real gamble.

@Leif: We have a significant force holed up in Gonzonium - legions and cats. Are they on their way to Paris? Or are they intended to provide a front line defensive shield? One of the things I realise I have trouble with re Legions is their ambiguous attack/defence role. You know where you are when the A and D in ADM are different :p

I'm at home now and looked into the save. Some not well connected thoughts.
I think we should complete invention in 2. We can easily afford it even with 10% lux (-60 gpt).

We have too many legions and to few horses.
I don't like to get chivalry at all with so few horses.

I don't think our western friends will do much research for us before they get contact.
So I would still go for a contact trade. But you can go for invention first and then look what's the situation.

We have too few workers for all the projects we have.

I still don't understand why everybody wants to go for the Greeks, especially Athens. There is so much good land to the N on our continent.

We need roads into these regions to connect to already existing roads. Then we can raze and settle and can move reinforcements at a decent speed.

@Leif: We have a significant force holed up in Gonzonium - legions and cats. Are they on their way to Paris? Or are they intended to provide a front line defensive shield? One of the things I realise I have trouble with re Legions is their ambiguous attack/defence role. You know where you are when the A and D in ADM are different :p
I inherited it from the Capt. However, I must say it has been very helpful in turning back the hordes that come through there. In the turn log, there are numerous references to the combats around Gonzomonium. The other reason so many units are there is because they were moved there for healing after combat. I wanted to extend the road towards Paris so that the cats could get there, but did not have the opportunity because of all the enemy units inbound.

Personally, I look at Legions as offensive with a bonus to protect themselves on the way to the target. You know me, I hate to attack with infantry unless I absolutely must because of the losses waiting to attack. Legion help to mitigate that.

I'm at home now and looked into the save.
:wavey: Glad to see you made it home safe and sound. Time for some good :sleep:
I don't think our western friends will do much research for us before they get contact.
So I would still go for a contact trade. But you can go for invention first and then look what's the situation.
They were pretty quick to get Monotheism and trade it amongst themselves and 2 of them require Chivalry for their UU. I was going to wait for Invention and then try my luck, but now Alan gets to make that call. His RNG is better than mine anyway. :lol: :lol:
We have too few workers for all the projects we have.I agree and we will now have our chance to make more as we have to keep our cities in balance between growth and rioting. We are also experiencing some maintenance problems as we are paying a ton of gold. We need more cities, quickly.
I still don't understand why everybody wants to go for the Greeks, especially Athens. There is so much good land to the N on our continent.
Let me see if I can explain my reasoning. :hmm: First is the obvious reason for me, they have 2 lux that we can readily hook up and utilize. Second, I hate having a civ at my back that requires me to hold back forces that I probably need where I want to attack. Third, we really lack the infrastructure to make war effectively to the north. We don't have roads on which our reinforcements can travel to sustain the bloody offensive operations that will occur. That also means that it will require a great deal of time to get our settlers there.

Taking out Greece allows us to get through the mountains to the north and start roading to the northwest while we eliminate someone (Greece, it'll make me feel good! :D ). Cleaning up the Greeks will mean we can head out with a lot more and get them there at the decisive point and time we choose, hopefully.
We need roads into these regions to connect to already existing roads. Then we can raze and settle and can move reinforcements at a decent speed.
This is precisely the point and it requires Legions to protect them. Doesn't civ have Combat Workers? :rolleyes: So far, there has been a flood of units into the VoD area, look at my turn log. I know it is too long, but it has details of every combat and most of them were around Gonzomonium and down in the Syracuse ares. It is difficult to protect workers building roads when small stacks of enemy units keep showing up and require that you engage them.

Again, good luck Alan. :clap:

Greece is still putting out troops that require us to defend. They also represent a safe haven for other AI units. I've just played two turns, and I've razed Athens. It certainly made me feel better :D. I'm also going to remove Liverpool and Seattle asap.

You posted too late, and I didn't turn science up to complete Invention in those turns. Meanwhile there's no change in the diplo situation.

Currently we have to defend against the English and Germans coming at us from the north and north west, the Babs, Russians and French from the north east, and the Greeks from the south west. I agree with leif, we need to get to a position where we only have one major front to fight on, not three.

I agree we need more horses for when we get Chivalry, an I'm building some. We shall need some cash to upgrade them as well. I don't see the point of getting Chivalry and being broke when it comes in. Meanwhile, legions are keeping the alien hordes at bay. I can fight swords with horses, at about a 50-60% success rate, but I need legions for defence against knights and to attack pikes.

I repeat, if we wait for Chivalry we let the AI get stronger and our knights may be obsolete when we get them. We have to start the attrition now.

@Alan
By razing Athens you made Greece stronger than before. They will now have a much nicer capital.
I agree that we should fight now, but for land that is worth something. If Greece, then the northern part.

The trickle of non-ressource units from the S and SE shouldn't have been a major problem.

Saving money doesn't help. You will probably have to throw in the cash anyways, if we should be able to buy chivalry. But we can earn the money for upgrades over time.

BTW horses also upgrade to cavs :D

I said, I'm building horses!

I'm going after greece in total. Athens was first because our units were oustide. Corinth is next.

It's 380 AD. I've completed Invention and traded it to the Iroquois for Mono. The Aztecs got it the same turn as us, Japan seems to be close to researching it themselves as they offered peanuts for it. India is still behing Engineering, and now Mono as well. Chivalry is not available yet on the other continent.

Gunpowder is at large locally, for all except Babs and Greece, so we face muskets. I can research Chivalry in 12 or Gunpowder in about 25 at a rate that will deplete us to zero gold. Or we can run min research build our gold reserves, and hope the other continent gets Chivalry soon. Comments?

Gunpowder is at large locally, for all except Babs and Greece, so we face muskets. I can research Chivalry in 12 or Gunpowder in about 25 at a rate that will deplete us to zero gold. Or we can run min research build our gold reserves, and hope the other continent gets Chivalry soon. Comments?
There is only one road to success at this stage, Chivalry. I say research it at Max, then turn down the slider and upgrade the horses we have available. We have 12 or so turns to build some horses for upgrade. Having just finished, I know you are going to need some Legions, so I wouldn't stop building them.

It will cost 70 sheilds per knight. That is about 5 turns in the larger cities and 7 to 10 in the others. We are still going to need Legions for a while and I see no reason not to attack with them.

Earlier you asked about Gonzomonium. If you can get a worker stack (3) to the mountain near Paris and can get a road built, I would start attacking in that direction too using the units there. I think that would have to be for the limited objective of setting us up to begin attacking that way. It might break up some of the enemy units as well if their roads are gone through Paris.

Keep up the good work, I know I feel better as well. :D

@Klarius - Despite my rant, I am open to any plan you wish to put forth. However, telling me we should attack England for their land is not enough right now. The reason is that we can't simply march to London and expect to succeed. The situation dictates more detail, plus I would like to learn and understand why your ideas are a smarter way to proceed. :cool:

I said, I'm building horses!

I heard you. My point was that I wasn't very eager to acquire chivalry very fast due to the relative low number of horses.


I'm going after greece in total. Athens was first because our units were oustide. Corinth is next.

Fine. Still I think keeping Athens around would have been better.


Gunpowder is at large locally, for all except Babs and Greece, so we face muskets. I can research Chivalry in 12 or Gunpowder in about 25 at a rate that will deplete us to zero gold. Or we can run min research build our gold reserves, and hope the other continent gets Chivalry soon. comments?

Neither Chivalry nor Gunpowder seems worth it at these numbers. I would go min on Gunpowder.
But when the next tech is available on the other continent, we will be in the same situation as it was with mono. They will want cash and contacts.
Astronomy cannot be far on our continent, so I would still say we should trade contacts soon.

Edit: Crossposted with Leif
@Leif:
I didn't say march into England. That's the ultimate goal, but not right now. I wanted to expand into the north, razing cities as needed and not use a lot of our power in Greece. And I still want all cities connected.

I think 12 turns for chivalry is too much. Even if we don't trade contacts, it may be available faster. With trading contacts it sure would and we could get enough cash in the meantime to buy it.

I agree with Leif's reasons for taking out Greece before moving north. They're pretty much the same reasons I posted at the end of my turnset. I hate having too many fronts and with Greece (and its lux's) secured and Alex out of the way, our push to the north should be much easier.

I now suggest we continue (minimum) research towards MT. Meanwhile we build horses and hope the easteners require Chivalry before Invention. Most probably they will and all we have to fear is that England may be building ships so it's a good thing we're keeping them locked in a land war, maybe that's why Liz hasn't crossed the ocean yet.

Thanks both of you for your thoughts. I agree with Klarius, we should go minimum or a scientist up the MT path. Chivalry will appear on the other continent, my guess in the next ten turns. If it does before Astronomy shows up at home we'll be able to trade contacts for it. Otherwise we'll need cash. Meanwhile we can build up a stock of horses. Legions are not dying in numbers yet, and we have almost 60 of them so, while more would be nice, I don't feel we can justify building them now. Once we have knights we won't need legions for attack, only for defence. We only have 21 horses right now, so I'd prefer to build a few of them. If the attrition rate on legions gets severe I'll review it, of course.

BTW, I haven't actually seen a musket yet. That'll only happen when we get around to attacking a core French or German or English city, and probably not for a little while yet. Hey, look on the bright side, they may not even have saltpeter, or have it hooked up.

Sorry Captain I cross-posted with you.

I now suggest we continue (minimum) research towards MT. Meanwhile we build horses and hope the easteners require Chivalry before Invention. Most probably they will and all we have to fear is that England may be building ships so it's a good thing we're keeping them locked in a land war, maybe that's why Liz hasn't crossed the ocean yet.
The east has Invention because (a) I've used it to buy Mono from Iroquois, (b) Aztec researched it themselves and got it the same turn we did and (c) it's clear Japan has nearly finished it as they didn't offer much for it. India doesn't have it, but they don't have Mono or Engineering either. If and when they get Chivalry we'll have to buy it with money or contacts or both. I was surprised Japan are going for Invention before Chivalry, given their Samurai UU, then I noticed they don't have iron, so maybe that reduces its priority.

I don't think I've ever seen an agressive AI such as Japan go for Invention before Chivalry :confused:
Are we allowed to gift techs to India? Surely the eastener's next research will be Chivalry? In which case we may still have the gpt-option? Even more :confused:

BTW, I haven't actually seen a musket yet. That'll only happen when we get around to attacking a core French or German or English city, and probably not for a little while yet. Hey, look on the bright side, they may not even have saltpeter, or have it hooked up.
A cheery thought! The way things are going, by the time we get to MT, they will have Infantry and be researching Motorized Transportation... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :cry:

Summary
This took a long time :eek:

We have Chivalry and five new cities. Silks are on line, Incense comes on line next turn. Leo's will complete in Virconium, courtesy of Claudius. Our troop count is:

18 horses, 9 knights, 48 legions, 11 cats and assorted camp followers. We have two settlers, one in the north waiting for a new site, the other en route to take up space in old Greece.

Everyone knows everybody now, and news of our dastardly behaviour has spread world wide.

The turn log

Turn 150 350 AD Preflight
Current appraisal, we need:
- knights (Chivalry plus horses plus money)
- our troops in the front lines (lux tax and fewer MPs)
- fewer battle fronts (clear the south and east)
- more cities to pay for our army (settlers)
- more workers to develop routes to war.

I decide to sweep two conquest forces anticlockwise round the south and east to take out the Greeks, French and other odd cities. The existing force near Athens will take out Athens then move north east to Sparta. We'll move on Liverpool, Knossos and Seattle from our southern cities. We'll send troops to Corinth then Chartres, and build a quick road through the small valley east of Gonzomonium to provide fast access into Rheims and Paris.

Meanwhile we'll hold the fort on our northern border where teh AI seems intent on concentrating all its forces.

So we switch four cities from legions to settlers, set 10% lux tax to liberate our legions from PMP duty, sell 15 barracks for 30 gold now that we have Sun Tzu, MM, and sliders to 6.3.1 for +1gpt. We're about to waste a lot of shields in Rome, so I switch it to a Market in 4 turns, then it can build a settler. Move troops towards the fronts. Spot 3 German swords on hills south of Hannover.

IBT
German knight attacks our mountain legions and retreats. The German swords move west along the hills. A French LB approaches from Chartres. An English LB approaches from Liverpoool.
Antium and Lutetia produce Legions. Hispalis produces a settler. All start horses.

Turn 151 360 AD
Cats and Legions move to incense hill overlooking Athens.
Vet horse kills English LB @ Liverpool, no damange.
Horse scouts N into VoD and sees American sword approaching.
Legion kills French LB near Chartres, 3/4.
Army kills German knight near Paris. Horse kills French LB near Paris, no damage.
Diplo - no change.

IBT
German swords move into VoD. German knight attacks legion near Palmyra and retreats, 3/4.
English LB appears from Liverpool.
Neapolis legion -> horse
Pompeii settler -> horse
Pisae legion -> horse
Virconium riots :( I was too enthusiastic with garrison movements :blush:
Lugdonum settler -> horse
Aesonium worker -> worker

Turn 152 370 AD
@Athens: Cats bomb. 3 fail. Two take 2hp off elite hoplite, 1 takes 1hp off 3/3 hoplite. 3/3 hoplite defending.
4/4 legion kills 3/3 hoplite -> 2/4
4/4 legion kills 3/5 hoplite -> 2/4
5/5 legion kills 2/3 hoplite -> 1/5, no leader. Archer pops up defending.
3/3 legion kills 3/3 archer -> 4/4. Razes Athens

@Liverpool: 4/4 legion kills English LB. 4/4 horse attacks 3/3 spear defending. Retreats. 2/3. Decide to wait and build up a bigger force.

@north Palmyra
4/5 legion kills 1/4 retreated German knight. No damage, no leader

@Valley of Death:
5/5 horse attacks German 4/4 sword, dies -> 3/4
4/4 horse attacks German 4/4 sword, retreats -> 3/4
4/4 horse attacks German 4/4 sword, dies -> 1/4
4/4 horse kills German 3/4 sword, no damage
4/4 horse kills German 3/4 sword, promotes to 4/5
4/4 horse kills German 1/4 sword, no damage
5/5* horse kills American 3/3 sword -> 1/5*

@Around Paris:
5/5 legion kills French 4/4 LB -> 3/5, no leader
Army kills German 4/4 knight -> 7/13. Horse follows and pillages irrig tile north of Paris

Discuss with team. We decide to go fast for Invention. Sliders to 1.8.1 for Invention next turn at -84gpt.

Juggle troops, MM ...

IBT
3 English knights take on our brave 3/4 legion on grass north east of Palmyra. He dies, but they all redline!
Invention completed. Start Gunpowder with a scientist.
Veii and Brundisium complete horses, start horses.
Neapolis worker -> horse
Pisae and Neocaledonium worker -> worker
Aztecs are building Leo's, so they have Invention.

Turn 153 380 AD
Iroquois offer Mono + WM + 1 gold for Invention. Japan only offers WM and gold. India still down Engineering and Mono. We do the deal with Iroquois.
Aztecs have Theology. None of them has Chivalry
Locals:
Russia, England, Germany, France have Theology, Chivalry, Gunpowder.
America and Greece have Chivalry and Theology.
Babs is down Engineering.

@Grassland north of Palmyra:
4/4 legion kills English 1/3 knight, promotes
4/4 horse kills English 1/3 knight sees English 3/3 knight.

@Byzantium:
4/4 Archer kills Greek archer, promotes -> 2/5

@Rome/Antium:
4/4 Legion attacks Greek 3/3 spear near iron dies -> 3/4
4/4 Legion kills Greek 3/4 spear -> 3/4

@East of Gonzominium:
4/4 legion attacks Babs 3/3 bow on mountains, dies -> 2/3
4/4 legion kills Babs 3/3 bow on mountains -> 1/4
4/4 legion kills Babs 2/3 bow on mountains -> 3/4

MM. Set Lugdonum, Pisae, Veii to produce workers.
Sliders to 10.0.0 with lone scientist. Taxman in Rome. 48 gpt.

IBT
Germans want to talk. We don't.
English knight kills horse north of Palmyra.
English knight attacks legion and dies, inflicts no damage.
Another English LB appears from Liverpool.
Rome completes forum/market, starts settler.
Veii, Lugdonum, Pisae complete workers.Virconium completes settler.

Turn 154 390 AD
Reposition and heal.

Diplo: No change. Decide to give India Mono in case it prompts them to research Chivalry. India get Mono for 19 gold + WM.

IBT
More AI stacks moving south.
Antium, Syracuse horse -> horse
Cumae Settler -> horse
Hispalis riots. It grew! :blush:

Turn 155 400 AD
5/5 horse kills English archer @ Gonzominium -> 3/5, no leader
5/5 horse kills German LB, no damage, no leader
Cats at GOnzominium redline Babs spear and 5/5 legion kills him -> 4/5, no leader

Diplo - no change. Sell WM around fo 33 gold and maps.
Slider 10.0.0 lone scientist. +53 gpt.

IBT
English LB from Liverpool kills legion
French LB near Paris kills fortified legion on mountain!
AI Stacks move.

Rome settler -> horse
Neapolis, Pompeii, Hispalis, Gonzominium horses -> horses
Lugdorum, Veii worker -> horse

Turn 156 410 AD A bad day at the RNG office:
Cats at Gonzominium bomn 2 x Russian 4/4 knights. 4 out of 5 miss.
4/4 legion kills Russian 4/4 knight no damage
5/5* Motha horse dies vs 3/4 Russian knight -> 2/4
4/4 horse dies vs 2/4 Russian knight -> 2/5
5/5 legion redlines Russian knight, no damange
4/5 horse kills Russian 1/5 knight -> 2/5

@Valley of Death:
4/4 legion dies vs 4/4 German knight -> 4/5
5/5 legion dies vs 4/5 German knight -> 2/5
5/5 legion dies vs 2/5 German knight -> 1/5
5/5 horse kills 1/5 German knight -> 3/5

In old Athens area, 2 cats bomb greek archer -> 1/3
5/5 legion kills 1/3 archer, no damage, no leader

@Liverpool:
4/4 legion kills 3/3 slpear no damage
4/4 horse kills 3/3 spear, razes Liverpool, disband worker
4/5 legion kills English 2/3 LB no damage, no leader

@Chartres: 5/5 legion kills French LB on hill. No damage, no leader
@South Paris: 5/5 legion kills French LB ->2/5, no leader

@Corinth:
4/4 legion kills 3/3 hoplite, no damage, promotes
5/5 legion kills 3/3 hoplite, -> 1/5, no leader. Raxes Corinth.
Disband 5 Greek workers :cry:

Diplo: No change.

IBT
Lots of action. I probably didn't capture it all.
German knight dies attacking legion.
German knight kills 2/5 horse
Russian knight kills legion guarding road gang east of Gonzomonium.
3 English knights head for Gonzomonium
English knight lands near Palmyra. Interestingly he's already a 3/4 :hmm:. One we've met earlier?

Pisae, Ravenna, Lutetia horses -> horses
Palmyra walls -> horse

Japan starts Leo's - they *were* researching Invention.

TUrn 157 420 AD
4/4 legion kills 24 Russian knight east of Gonzomonium
4/4 legion kills 4/4 German LB on hills south of Hannover
5/5 legion kills Russian 3/3 spear/settler on old Athens site -> 2/5 no leader

@Sparta:
Bomb 2 3/3 hoplites to 2/3, 2 x 4/4 legions kill hoplites and raze Sparta.
Bomb archer -> 1/3, legion kills archer.

@Palmyra:
4/4 legion dies vs. English 3/4 knight, no damage.
4/4 legion vs English 3/4 knight. Knight retreats. Legion 1/4
4/4 horse kills 1/4 knight, no damage.

Change Rome to LB - I'm getting tired of attack 3 :rolleyes:

Diplo: no change

IBT
Americans want to talk. Read my lips - we don't talk to strangers.
American sword stack advances.
German knight kills legion, promotes to 4/5.
English want to talk. Which part of 'No' do you guys not understand?
English knight stack backs off Gonzonomium

Hispalis worker -> worker
Virconium settler -> horse
Byzantium horse -> horse

Turn 158 430 AD
4/4 legion kills Russian pike and settler near Chartres -> 2/5
4/4 legion retreats a 4/5 German knight and a 4/4 horse kills him.

Diplo - no change. Pass the hat round for our maps for 15 gold

IBT
English knights kill a legion and a horse, but three retreat redlined in the battles

Rome bulds a LB (I'm getting tired of attack 3 :rolleyes:
Antium, Neapolis, Pompeii horse -> horse

Turn 159 440 AD
Build Jerusalem on Athens ruins -> worker
Build Caesarea near old Liverpool -> worker

@Knossos:
legion dies vs. hoplite -> 1/3
Horse kills 3/3 hoplite -> 3/4
Horse kills 1/3 hoplite and autorazes Knossos

Diplo - FINALLY! Aztecs have researched Chivalry. They want Germany + WM + 220 gold.
Well, I need that gold for a few upgrades I have in mind.
What will you offer me for the best three contacts I have? Hmm. WM + 80, 90, 110 for France, England, Germany respectively. Sounds like I should be able to get Chivalry for those three and keep my gold, maybe grab some of his?
What would you give me for England, France and Germany my friend?
Answer: Chivalry + WM + 7 gpt + 70 gold. You have a deal, Monty!

Montezuma turns from Annoyed to Furious in a heart beat. He seems to have heard some evil rumours about us from his new friends. News travels fast.

We have 752 gold. Upgrades are 80 gold each. We upgrade 9 vet horses to knights :D Now we can kick some dust back in their eyes.

Meanwhile, back at the front:
5/5 legion kills German LB No damage, no leader
4/4 legion retreats 2/3 English knight
4/4 legion kills 1/4 English knight no damage
5/5 gorse kills 1/3 English knight -> 3/5 no leader
4/4 horse kills /13 English knight on mtn, no damage
Army kills 4/4 French LB near Gonzomonium
5/5 legion kills American spear/settler near Chartres. No damage, no leader

IBT
Greek archer attacks horse and dies
English knight kills 2/4 horse -> 1/4

Hispalis worker -> worker

Aztecs are building Sistines. They've been trading.

Turn 160 450 AD
@Pharsalos:
6 cats take 1 hoplite hp and one citizen
4/4 legion dies vs 3/3 hoplite -> 1/3
4/4 legion kills 2/3 hoplite -> 2/4
5/5 legion kills 1/3 hoplite, no damage no leader

@Gonzomonium:
Cats take 1hp off each of 2 Babs horses
5/5 legion retreats a 2/3 Babs horse
5/5 legion kills a 2/3 Babs horse, no damage no leader
4/4 legion kills 1/3 Babs horse no damage

@Chartres:
4/4 legion dies vs 3/3 pike -> 3/4
4/4 legion kills 3/4 pike -> 1/4
5/5 legion kills 3/3 spear and razes Chartres, and ... CLAUDIUS WAS BORN.
Settler immediately builds Tarentum in place of Chartres. 2 workers disbanded for 4 shields in Tarentum!!!
Claudius legs it to Viroconium where he builds Leo's as we have more elite business to attend to. The rest of our horses will now only cost 40 gold each to upgrade.
5/5 legion kills French LB outside Tarentum, no damage, no leader.

Build Nicomedia in place of Corinth.
Complete silk road.
Build Seleucia on the horses in our 6-ring.

@Babs settler convention near Tarentum (2 settlers + spear + bow):
5/5 legion kills Babs spear -> 2/5
5/5 legion kills Babs bow -> 4/5
Disband the 4 workers

Check diplo:
All contacts have been traded around.
Aztecs are up Theology and Gunpowder
Iroquois is up Theology
Japan is at parity
India is domn Invention

After action report
A very mixed set :rolleyes: Started badly, got worse, then suddenly there was a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. We now have knights, new cities, routes to the enemy, more secure borders, luxuries, and cheap upgrades. We can get more troops out of the cities and onto the front line as our core is better isolated from the AI, and those troops will be much more competitive. We can now turn the tide in the north.

Specific things to watch.

I used our pillager army to take out a few approaching knights, so it 's returning to base for some R&R. We've done enough damage to France, anyway. It's next mission will probably be to England.

There's a band of American swords south of Paris. They'll be cannon fodder for our first knight attacks. There are five knights holed up in Gonzomonium and more in Palmyra. I haven't upgraded any this turn as it will be two for the price of one next turn.

The route north east from Virconium gives a flanking attack path into France. Rheims should be next in that direction, then Paris. There's some mopping up to do in Greece, and Seattle, when we have settlers to replace them.

There are two settlers available now, one in Gonzomonium who could move towards Rheims now, the other in the south east, moving towards a nice coastal resort in old Greece.

It was critical to get roads outbound to our new frontiers, and the pop reductions for workers and settlers meant we didn't need more tiles improved in the core.

We've hit a major shift in our economy now, so we'll need a new MM policy, as the unit costs have changed and we can afford to let population grow a bit. Now is the time to go expansive and work towards a second core somewhere. And we need to get our borders out beyond those northern mountains, where AI troops can operate relatively safely.

Here's the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Xteam_SG003_AD0450_01.SAV)

Here's the overview map. If you click it you'll see a panaramic full scale image of the northern front lines.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam_SGOTM3_450AD.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam_SGOTM3_450AD_Big.jpg)

Note we are required to declare war on the Aztecs by turn 177, 620 AD. That'll be on Adrian's watch. The way things are now it'll happen before that :eek:

Roster:

Klarius UP
AdrianE On deck
Capt Buttkick
leif erikson
AlanH

Good luck Klarius. Have fun with the Xteam knights.

As far as I can see from work it looks very good.

If I should get a leader soon I probably will try to jump the palace into the former Greece, because it will take too long till we have enough progress to the north. We still can do a second (or third ... :lol: ) palace jump later.
Jerusalem or the next to be build city seem okay, will give us a nice boost in economy and will soon have sort of a core around so that it isn't too much of an exploit (at least I think :confused: :crazyeye: ).

One question is, if I should go through our empire and unhook all iron as soon as we run short of horses.
Building knights in cities with 5 shields doesn't make much sense. I will have to look through our empire to see how it looks like after a few turns.

I think I should gift (sell cheap) Invention to India. It doesn't help, if they spend their money buying it from somebody else and it's unlikely that they acquire Theology first.

@AlanH:
You seem to have forgotten India (also in your list on the first page). I contacted them first AFAIR.

Contact with India. Trading time. They are a bit backwards as expected.
In the course of the following trades, I conatct everyone.
Sequence is Aztecs, Iroquois, Japanese.


I see your jet lag is recovering nicely ;)
Quite right! I missed the first sentence. I'll fix the list. So - correction - Adrian will have to declare on India in 620 AD, not Aztecs.

You suggestion to disconnect the iron is good. The main cities are typically capable of delivering 10 spt, with Rome capable of either 15 or 20 depending on how you configure it. If we disconnect the iron then Rome can run at maybe 15 spt. These numbers give you 2 or 3 turns per horse from p'raps six cities. We should be able to upgrade one or two horses per turn with our current income, more as we get more cities installed, so in six turns with iron disconnected you'll have up to a dozen more knights. One worker could reconnect it every six turns for upgrades, with one mil unit to pop out of Antium and pillage it each time.

Eastern Greece is not too bad for an early second core. It already has some good infrastructure.

Note: Leo's will generate some culture. I did think hard abut putting it in Gonzomonium, where the culture boundaries might be more useful, but I was a bit nervous about the proximity to Paris. We wouldn't want to lose it to a flip :eek:

As it is there will be some benefit from culture expansion in Viroconium, maybe avoiding the need for an infill city in the Valley of Death and hooking up with city boundaries to the east.

Tarentum actually looks very good as a palace jump location. You can build a very productive 5.x ring round it, including some of our existing cities - Gonzo, Nicomedia, and a replacement for Rheims and one out near Argos.

Note: Leo's will generate some culture. I did think hard abut putting it in Gonzomonium, where the culture boundaries might be more useful, but I was a bit nervous about the proximity to Paris. We wouldn't want to lose it to a flip :eek:


There was no flip risk. The culture boundaries of Paris don't extend into the 21 tile radius.
And even with one more culture expansion happening before Gonzo's expansion it couldn't snatch more than three tiles.
Without foreign population and foreign culture, two units will eliminate the flip risk completely (we are not far behind France in total culture).
Proximity to the capital is irrevelant when the basic flip risk is offset by the garrison already.


Tarentum actually looks very good as a palace jump location. You can build a very productive 5.x ring round it, including some of our existing cities - Gonzo, Nicomedia, and a replacement for Rheims and one out near Argos.

Well, I was looking more into a first ring at range six. We have 4 cities at 6 from FP and some more possible locations.

BTW: I got it. Will look some more in the save and ponder the various options. Then I will probably play this night.

Very Nice Alan!! :goodjob:

As usual, looks like I need more patience regarding techs. Very happy to see Chivalry and a leader for Leo's, how timely!! :salute: It will also be very nice to have some more Lux available to our core cities for some :D . The Greeks look to be on the ropes, so it must be time to pay a special one-way visit to the French. ;)

Looks like the flood coming through the VoD has not slackened much. It may be a good thing for the AI to concentrate on trying to come down that corridor, nice place to ambush and eliminate them. :hammer:

Good luck Klarius, keep up the good work!! :banana:

Looks like the flood coming through the VoD has not slackened much. It may be a good thing for the AI to concentrate on trying to come down that corridor, nice place to ambush and eliminate them. :hammer:
The problem I found with it was that knights were arriving at the top of the valley and then making their way down the northern range of hills and mountains towards Palmyra. They were very costly to kill, and seemed to be quite effective at killing our troops on the hills as they approached. I felt I wanted to break out of that pattern, and now that we have knights we can do so.

The problem I found with it was that knights were arriving at the top of the valley and then making their way down the northern range of hills and mountains towards Palmyra. They were very costly to kill, and seemed to be quite effective at killing our troops on the hills as they approached. I felt I wanted to break out of that pattern, and now that we have knights we can do so.
Of course then, you are right. During my time, the Knights were staying more in the area near where Hannover was and the infantry units all came down through the VoD. There weren't a lot of Knights yet. I find it very interesting that the AI keeps them to the hills and mountains so well when it just threw the infantry out there for slaughter.

That means that we have to try to get our defenses move forward beyond the Hannover area. It would be nice to get our border up against the jungle to the west and then attack around it tothe north. Then those pesky Knights would, hopefully, get caught up in the jungle and lose their advantage of manuever.

Again, good job, we are finally making some progress. :cool:

Well, I guess they were sticking to the hills because that's where I was putting units ready to (a) defend against them reaching Palmyra and (b) attack them. but as they could reach me as fast as or faster than I could reach them, and they had equal defence points and higher attack points, it was costly.

Overview:
Got finally one leader after many tries. Palace jump under way.
Removed Greece. Razed some more cities. Built some cities.
Traded for Gunpowder and Theology.

Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Xteam_SG003_AD0550_01.sav)

Preflight:

Change some builds to galleys. There are galleys of various civs sailing around and I want to get active on the sea.
Look around for some fights already. Go for Seattle, two elite legions redlined, but city razed. That frees some forces if one of the galleys floating around wants to drop something.

IBT:
Loose to elite legions to knight and sword attacks. The others loose some swordsa nd leave a lot in the open to kill.

Turn 1:
Housekeeping, kill everything in the open. Loose another elite legion attacking a reg knight in the open w/o damage only promoting it. The rest is done by knights and legions. Raze Hannover.
Did trade invention to India for map + 15 gold. Trade maps around. Map shows that the civs on our continent are expanding to the eastern middle continent (?). Germany, France, Babylon and Russia have already settled there.
I already disconnected the iron after only upgrading three more knights.
I want to save money anyways to trade for gunpowder (I think should cost around 600).
Founded Artaxta in former Greek territory. I would like to palace jump there. It could serve even as center to some cities on the middle continent.

IBT:
No attacks. Afew enemies move in.

Turn 2:
Not much. Move some units. Loose a galley.

IBT: A russian knight comes out of the nothing and kills a elite legion.
Another kills a spear on a mountain. Some bab bowman come nearer.

Turn 3: loose an elite legion to attacking bowman in the open. Raze Argos. Kill some assorted units. Still no leader. I'm closing in to some more cities.

IBT: No counters this time.

Turn 4:

I raze Delphi and Greece is gone. In Dover is still a redlined spear.

IBT:

A lot of knights apear. Germans, English, American,French and Russian. Loose a knight.
Aztecs call. We will not need to declare war on them. ;) Monty didn't like that I rebuffed his extortion attempt.

Turn 5:

In Dover there is now a Musket. With all the knights around I choose retreating to Nicopolis, which I just founded. I shuffle units around so the knights cannot attack.

IBT:
Several units advance and are in good shape for attack. Lost one knight to a knight attack

Turn 6:
I raze Rheims. Again lost an elite legion to a reg spear. I think the RNG god doesn't like me. I also lost a knight to an already yellow knight behind Rheims.
Loose a vet galley to an english reg galley (the one that delivered the musket to Dover)
I killed some more knights loosing one knight. Only one more knight in sight will probably attack Nicopolis and kill a legion. Well we still have lots of legions.
I now got a LEADER. He will do the palace jump into former Greece. The northern region is still to insecure.

IBT:
Russians found Sverdlowsk directly in front of my units. Loose a legion to a knight. More knights coming.

Turn 7:
Kill some knights w/o losing anything. Shuffling units.

IBT: Some more units coming

Turn 8:
Same as turn 7. Nothing exciting.

IBT:
Germans land a knight near Brundisium. Some more units coming.

Turn 9:
A legion retreats the knight, then I loose a horse on it and only the second horse gets it (knights are at the front).
Buy Gunpowder from Japan for all our gold (690) +WM, swap with India for Theologie. We have Saltpeter in abundance, but nothing hooked up.
Not much to fight.
I have a galley now near the middle continent. There are all the Barbs. One is called adrianE. :)

IBT: Some units move. No attacks.

Turn 10:
As usual kill a few. Especially some units I let deep into our land, don't want to leave such a mess (but I finally got these pesky pikes in the open). Raze Sverdlowsk. Some nice land there.
Land a horse on the middle continent, will probably die to a barb horse.
Checked trades, everybody except Babs has education, nobody chemistry.
Palace will complete in the interturn.

Three settlers will complete next turn. There's enough open space for them.
One settler is unmoved in Hispalis.
Another is NE of Byzantiun. He is supposed to go one more NE for RCP 6 to the new palace.
If we want to deal with the Barbs, we can settle also the middle continent at RCP 6.
We shouldn't go any closer to the new palace. Our FP region will be very productive by that.

There are lots of units in the northern cities to go for whatever you want. The core is quite empty as it should be (we don't need MP).
The german galley S of Brundisium is already empty, so no danger.

All the infrastructure builds are only tentative, but we should build some culture buildings around the new palace. These cities should also grow first, before they make settlers or workers. I would continue to hold the FP core cities at size 6.
The iron is currently hooked, so there are many build orders on knights. Unhooking and building horses would probably be better in the weaker cities. But we are already paying mayor unit support cost.
Please no more cats. They are already mostly behind, only moving around and never getting a shot, because all is already dead when they arrive. That may be mainly my style, because I don't let the enemies near our cities, but I think that's the most succesfull style. We are now connected to the french road network, so moving after razing is fast.

I'm not quite sure what we should do with science. IMO we should go for MT, but we will also need astronomy. Education is widely available and will be relative cheap to buy if we save the money. Chemistry is not around and will maybe not be available before we are at war with everybody. Check what our economy is like after the palace jump.

Well, it's now 3AM and I'm still wide awake. But I should get up tomorrow at 8 or so, so I better try to sleep a bit.

:clap: Looking very good, nice progress Klarius. :goodjob:

Now I need to have a look at the save!! Can't wait to see all the city razes, sounds like some serious destruction. :D

Good job klarius :goodjob:

Roster:

Klarius
AdrianE UP
Capt Buttkick On deck
leif erikson
AlanH

AdrianE, the barbarian ;) is up next and will declare on India in turn 7 if they don't do it first.

Don't forget to record all the barb names you see. There's a puzzle in there somewhere.

Good luck!

I looked some more at the map:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/kl_xt_550ad.jpg

That's with Dianthus' CRPRings utility (which I have at work :lol: ).
You see ring at RCP 6 around the new capital. There is already a settler near the western dot.
As you can see this ring has some nice locations on the middle continent. We should clean out the barbs in this area and settle some cities there soon.
These cities are rank 1 and will be highly productive, if we don't settle nearer to our new capital. They are coastal linked so a port will link them to our empire.
Note, it looks like we will not even need Astronomy. By going via the middle continent we can invade the other continent with galleys on quite short routes.

So I would recommend to send two legions with the galley already in the region. They should stand their ground against the barbs. Send some more units (horses and legions should do) to clean out the camps, then settle two or three rank 1 cities there. Look if there are channel cities possible when the fog is lifted.
This should be a nice preparation for our later invasion of the other continent.
At the same time the fight in the north should continue with our stronger forces.
As it looks we got a very good new palace location for the long run now (somewhat by accident).

We can make progress on our continent with knights (and also the already existing cats for tougher cities). But for the other continent we will need cavs.
It's no fun to fight Jumbos and Sams with knights.
Also shipping over large amounts of units is difficult, so the units should be the most effective.
From my experience it still can take a long time till our potential trading partners (only Japs and Iros possible after the next turn set) will acquire even chemistry. So we should go for self research towards chemistry and even delay upgrading units by going a higher science slider.
This also means we should evaluate our cities (after the palace jump) and build libraries in high commerce, low corruption locations. Especially evaluate coastal cities if it makes sense to grow them over size 6, with library, harbor and market.

In the center of our old core, food is still a problem. I couldn't even work all the mined hills and there are more hills to mine. I already started to change some mined grass to irrigation and more will be necessary. The cities shouldn't grow above size 6, because this just takes food away from other cities, but they also should not go below size 4.
So only make workers or settlers on size 6 with the food box nearly full. Cities on fresh water should best time it for the growth turn to 7 (I messed this up in one city :blush: ).

The rank 1 cities around the new capital should get library, granary, harbor where possible, aqueduct where needed and market when they get big. Tile improvement should concentrate on food first (and cut all trees) to grow them at least to size 4-5 quick.
Units can come from our FP region.

Just looked onto the map again and found another point:
Caesaraugusta should be abandoned. It will never produce enough to set off the additional corruption it generates in other cities.
One should also evaluate relocating Byzantium to RCP 9.

Edit:
And still another thought. We could consider to revolt to republic. The additional unit support cost of around 60gpt is for sure set off by the additional commerce. We don't need MP so that's no problem.
We just would have to make sure to avoid too much war weariness.
That's a tricky point. It would mean to be very careful in fighting. Make sure to be always successful, don't loose too many units.
Maybe it's not worth the risk of messing it up in the variant, where we cannot bail out by a quick peace. In a normal game it would be quite good now.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/kl_xt_550ad2.jpg

Another screenie from our FP location. I just wanted to klarify a little bit how the palace jump will work out.
By not settling any city nearer than range 6 to our new capital, every city within the range 6 ring will be rank 1.
That's 13 cities with minimal corruption.
The cities within the range 9 ring will still be quite productive now, but this will worsen with additional RCP 6 cities around the capital. This can be partially offset by abandoning Caesaraugusta and relocating Byzantium, which are closer than RCP 9 to the new capital.
Note again for the FP it doesn't matter if cities are on exact ring locations. They have to be at distances up to the ring distances around the capital.

Note again for the FP it doesn't matter if cities are on exact ring locations. They have to be at distances up to the ring distances around the capital.
So the critical point here is not to build any cities in the new core at less than ring distances 6 and 9? If that should happen, it will have large negative effects on the old core around the FP. :eek:

Nice analysis, thanks!! :goodjob:

So the critical point here is not to build any cities in the new core at less than ring distances 6 and 9? If that should happen, it will have large negative effects on the old core around the FP. :eek:

Nice analysis, thanks!! :goodjob:

The important point is really not settle within range 6 of the capital, which would affect in the end 15 cities or so.

Increasing the corruption within the second ring slightly can be justified, if there is a very good or important RCP 7 or 8 location. This is percentage wise much less of a problem.

EDIT:
I was a little concerned at first, because one could call this exploiting the rank corruption bug.
But when I saw the cow on the middle continent (on turn 1 already when I traded maps), I thought one can justify the palace location for having a core that extends to the middle continent.
If others have a different opinion we can settle a few cities closer to the palace. It's suboptimal, but 2 or 3 extra closer cities will still not kill our empire with corruption. We will loose maybe 20-40 shields and commerce overall, but still have a lot of highly productive cities.

OK, that's clear enough.

Good luck Adrian the Barbarian, show them AI to fear your name!! :lol: :lol:

Republic no. Bad idea. War weariness will kill us. The extra commerce will be spent on entertainment. Plus we don't want to lose the turns to anarchy.

I really don't like the disconnecting iron trick. It is exploitive in my opinion. I also really don't like palace jumping. I especially don't like exploiting the palace rank corruption bug.

If we settle the middle continent, how are we going to support it? The barbs and the Ai's will flatten our units. Barb's sacking a city could cost us a lot of $.

So there is a barbarian named after me? Interesting. Have we seen any other named barbarians? It occurs to me that m-b may have named the barbarians after the players in the very first SGOTM (which was a replay of GOTM 24- Korea, with us as the Oda).

Republic no. Bad idea. War weariness will kill us. The extra commerce will be spent on entertainment. Plus we don't want to lose the turns to anarchy.

As I said, probably for the variant it is too much, otherwise there is no need for much war weariness.
The trick is to not loose many battles, but win some on every turn. Don't defend (which always generates WW even if winning), attack.
I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have had problems in my turn set, I killed probably 4-5 times more units than I lost, razed enemy cities every now and then and didn't let many enemy units into our land. But we don't know if it will stay that simple in the time to come.


I really don't like the disconnecting iron trick. It is exploitive in my opinion. I also really don't like palace jumping. I especially don't like exploiting the palace rank corruption bug.

We are in a competition and the others will use the tricks to the limits allowed.
Palace jumping in general is a normal Civ strategy and always was since Civ 1. I cannot help that Firaxis messed up the FP rank corruption in Vanilla. It's no better to exploit this by building a tight core around the FP or using RCP in general. Palace jump is just quicker.
Really playing honestly towards the bug is better left to great strategists like SirPleb, who demonstrated how to do it in Gotm 33 (but still with palace jump).


If we settle the middle continent, how are we going to support it? The barbs and the Ai's will flatten our units. Barb's sacking a city could cost us a lot of $.

Barbs stand no chance against our units. We are not fighting with warriors and archers as it is in the early game when you have lots of problems. Still just try it out, you can ferry over two legions within 4-5 turns. If you put them somewhere with a defense bonus, you will already see lots of barbs impaling themselves.
The AI will not do much on this continent. Their cities are weak and don't even have harbors. AI's rarely reinforce colonies from their main land with strong units. The only thing we will see is the occassional galley with a knight (or even longbow) trying a sneak attack. This can be easily controled.

Good luck for your turns and don't forget that you still have to declare on India.

We are in a competition and the others will use the tricks to the limits allowed.


That is absolutely no excuse to use an exploit.

The RNG has already decided who is going to win the laurel and it is not us. We might as well play honourably.

The RNG has already decided who is going to win the laurel and it is not us.

I'm absolutely not sure about that.
Team Smackster has a lot of points, but they haven't won by 1200 AD. If they don't finish soon I still see a chance for a faster win.
EDIT:
And just to cheer the team up a bit. In GOTM 33, which was similarly difficult AI wise, I was military weaker at 550AD and had much fewer good cities. Still I reached domination before 1200AD. Admittedly this was w/o the variant so research was easier, still the final blow can be cast quite quick, if you are well prepared.

I'm absolutely not sure about that.
Team Smackster has a lot of points, but they haven't won by 1200 AD. If they don't finish soon I still see a chance for a faster win.

Perhaps I am out of line for saying this, but I just want to state for the record in case that you are unaware that the golden laurel is awarded for the fastest finish relative to the best Jason date for the specified victory condition. Therefore (for instance) domination in 1200AD would be a lot slower than Space race on the same date. ;)

Perhaps I am out of line for saying this, but I just want to state for the record in case that you are unaware that the golden laurel is awarded for the fastest finish relative to the best Jason date for the specified victory condition. Therefore (for instance) domination in 1200AD would be a lot slower than Space race on the same date. ;)
I'm not unaware of this, but I think that anything else than domination or conquest will stand no chance. The early research benefit of the Great Library doesn't offset the need to do all self research later on.

Edit: I just looked up the Jason best dates.
Conquest is the way to go in the variant with a best date of 1150. Domination would be reachable not much earlier in the variant and has a much lower date.
Space race best date at 1300, I think ridiculous for the variant.
And diplomatic though possible even in the variant, is totally ruled out by the much too low best date for the variant.

What is our current research policy? Are we heading to military tradition at max? Or something else?

Do we want saltpeter hooked up?

How many markets/libraries do we have? Do we need more?

I think we will need some bigger cities to build newer units.

I'll pick up the save tonight.

That is absolutely no excuse to use an exploit.

The RNG has already decided who is going to win the laurel and it is not us. We might as well play honourably.
I understand how you feel about this as we had a similar discussion last game. The GOTM rules allow palace jumps, but you are not allowed to make them to a remote area because of the rank corruption bug. We are not doing that, so I think we are well within the rules. The other teams will follow these rules and it leaves us at a disadvantage not to use them in the spirit in which they are intended.

@Klarius - I also agree on victory condition. If we find ourselves in a position to get a conquest victory, we should try to do so as the best date for conquest is later than domination, iirc. :D

What is our current research policy? Are we heading to military tradition at max? Or something else?

Do we want saltpeter hooked up?

How many markets/libraries do we have? Do we need more?

I think we will need some bigger cities to build newer units.

I'll pick up the save tonight.

No we don't need saltpeter now. There's no use for the largely overprized muskets in our empire. If we ever should need defense (which I don't think ;) ) use a few legions instead of one musket.

Markets/libraries is not a question of how many. They should be built in cities which can profit from them.

As I mentioned already in my after action report, one should assess cities with high commerce potential and decide if it is worth it. Best candidates are coastal cities, because they can grow without taking tiles away from other cities. Also the cities around the new capital should get them, because there is enough space.

We don't need to grow cities for unit production in our dense core. These will be able to churn out knights or cavs even at small sizes. Only when all tiles are improved and there are spare improved tiles we should consider growing some. Currently I think we are fine with all towns around size 6 in this region.
Growing cities there is wasting food, which we need to make settlers.

Markets shouldn't be built in small cities, because we don't need the happiness benefit there. The tax benefit alone is not enough to justify the investment, especially since I think that we will soon have to run our own research.

My 2¢ on ethics:

If we wanted to play honourably we have already blown that option by taking techs from France for gpt and then declaring war. So we can't claim any moral victories. I think the variant rules are quite enough of a challenge, so I see no reason to tie our hands behind our backs in this game by playing to tighter rules than the competition specifies. Even if the golden laurel is already won (debatable) I'd still like to see how well we can do against the rest of the variant teams.

A Palace jump to a remote location is forbidden and we won't do it - we could be disqalified. But we are not playing a private SG, we are playing a competitive game. One person's exploit is another's legitimate ploy, so I vote we play it according to the defined rules, which do allow resource disconnection.

Re. saltpeter, we'll need it for cavalry, not before.

I want to make a few remarks about fast conquest victories and why Team Smackster will not win the gold laurel :) .

For a fast conquest you only need a limited number of cities. After you have your cores you just need a few waypoint cities, but there is no need to fill in all the land.
In fact you shouldn't fill the land. That's only necessary for high scores.
At some point when there are no productive locations to settle and the necessary techs are researched (MT and the transport tech necessary on the map), all production goes into military.
Only a few settlers are needed then. That's also what we should do. Productive cities will be probably only to RCP 9 from our two centers. After that we should only settle some cities on our continent for healing, on the other continent we have to see how it works out, but I don't think more than a handfull of cities will be necessary.

Team Smackster has a much too high score for an efficient conquest strategy and it is still exponentially growing.
They must have settled cities like crazy neglecting military build-up.

As I stated already above, I think the only way to win the variant is by fast conquest.
TS are already at 1250AD. We may not make it by that date (but it's still my goal to be earlier than that), but another Team will.

I'm very glad to read your analysis, Klarius. Now I would like to ask what we should use to guide our play in the near term sets of turns. This is what I get out of it, please correct me if I am wrong.

1. We should be producing horsemen and hook up an iron source every 6 or 7 turns to upgrade them and then take the iron offline again.

2. In our new core, we must not plant any cities closer than dist=6 and we should focus production of Libraries, Marketplaces and then units.

3. We should continue to expand our destruction westward with the majority of our forces and continue to keep a very small forces (2 to 3 Legions) on duty on the island to eliminate Barb activity, mostly by defending on terrain wiht defensive bonuses.

4. Workers need to get the old core improved for food production, and some shields as well. In the new core, we need food asap and then shields.

5. Our research is headed for MT and my guess is that we should stay on min until we are war with the other AI and trading is no longer possible. Then we have to have our cores ready to self-research the rest of the way to MT.

edit - I was thinking about your comments concerning preparation for fast conquest and about your GOTM 33. You spoke of preparation. Is there something else we should be doing to prepare for this? The other thing I was wondering was if there were certain techniques we should use; such as force ratios (I tend to send too many units to attack a city and forfeit the attacking several cities to ensure I get one) or dealing with offensive units that come out to meet us, or other such things?

Highlights:
Paris has been burned to the ground. Two leaders. 4 towns founded.

Barbs Alweth and Grahamanian are spotted. Must be something related to the Oda SGOTM.

Preturn:
Swap to single scientist research in Neocaladonium. Save 15GPT.

IBT - our horse on the new continent is killed
Germany completes Sistine Chapel and Aztecs complete Copernicus

560AD - consolidate forces, upgrade 3 knights

570AD - switch ceasar augusta to settler and abandon
kill 2 English knights, Russian found Sverdlosk on route to Paris

580AD - get leader in defensive battle. Massive battle to clear way for future border city of Aggripina in center.

590AD raze Sverdlosk - RNG takes 3 legions away from us.
IBT Russian want peace

600AD Lose 3 knights to raze Hannover. French found Rhiems near Paris on coast.

610AD - Build knight army with Octavian. Promptly get another leader near Paris.

620AD - start bombardment of Paris - need more cats to hammer big cities
I try to extort Education from India. They say no and ask what i'm going to do about it. So I declare war on India.

620AD - keep pounding Paris not much damage - definately need more cats/cannons to take down bigger cities. We need to reduce them to size 6 or less.

630AD - destroy Paris' barracks yeah!!!

640 AD attack Paris - nearly lose knight army (2HP left) to musketeer - almost take Paris - French longbowman left
Buy education from Iroquois for 580G and WM

The forces I had accumulated to raze Dover needed to destroy English knights.

650AD take Paris and burn it

We have forces near Dover and Rhiems to raze them. There are some recuperating units in Gordium.

We have a leader available. We could save our $ for 4 turns and buy Music Theory and build JS Bachs. We could build another knight army (for the South).

Next player

Highlights:
Paris has been burned to the ground. Two leaders. 4 towns founded.

Sounds like you did some real fighting!! :goodjob: And a couple of more leaders!! Must be nice to be in with the RNG God. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Got to go have a look at the save.

Got it.
I've got a pretty clear idea of where we're heading from klarius' review, but I won't play for at least some hours yet so there's still a chance to give me a few tips :)

Got it.
I've got a pretty clear idea of where we're heading from klarius' review, but I won't play for at least some hours yet so there's still a chance to give me a few tips :)
Capt., just checked the save. Astronomy is available from the Iroquois but I could find a way to obtain it. I was thinking that, should we get it, we could use the leader to build Copernicus in a nice, productive city near the FP.

We should buy astronomy, but not musik theory. Bach is of no value for us, we have already 4 luxes and 2 more are available on our continent. I would only get musik, if it by accident gets available for astronomy.
After that I would go for full research towards MT and put the war on the backburner. I would even change some of the nearly complete knight builds to library. This would mean no money for upgrades for the next around 40 turns.
The AI's will probably spend some more time in the upper tech tree. I don't want to risk to delay MT any more so full research has to start soon.
We only need Astronomy from the upper tree. Navigation would be nice to have, but not crucial. So I wouldn't even sell chemistry for useless techs like banking, should this deal come up. Note that now with most civs at war, the tech pace isn't that fast anymore. It's possible that somebody is going for chemistry but rather unlikely. We may well reach MT first and don't face any cavs at all or only when we roll over the last 1 or 2 civs with hopefully then a large number of cavs on our side.

Not much has happened towards our new capital. So we could also consider a second palace jump to the north. But this should then be a similar setup as the first. No city closer than RCP6 and trying to go for a 6 ring.

If we don't do the jump into the north, productive cities have to come first.
There are still several good locations possible, while expanding much farther into the north will give totally corrupt cities.

The leader should make an army or even rush a market in a low production high commerce town, if he's not needed for a palace jump. We don't need any more wonders.

EDIT:
@Leif
Crossposted as usual. :)
Copernicus is already built so it's no option. We will have to save 4-6 turns to be able to acquire astronomy and we should do it anyways.

England is up 4 techs on us. Most of the others are up 3 techs. It is unlikely that none of the AI's are researching chemistry. I'd expect Chemistry to be out there in 10 turns or so.

One thing to note is that the AI's are all in republic. The war weariness must really be starting to hit them. If I recall the WW article each razed city is +10 and each level of WW hits at multiple of 30. France will be hurting. We need to get England to be running 30 or 40% entertainment. They seem to be the rich ones that are driving research.

So it may be useful to let those spear/settler pairs settle and then raze the city to inflict WW.

We are making about 140GPT. That will go up if we settle more cities (cut down support). Corrupt cities aren't so bad. They can produce cats and workers. If we save $, we should be able to buy 2 techs in the next 10 turns. Then we can go full speed on metallurgy and military tradition.

We have 2 towns unconnected to the road net. These towns could produce warriors, which then get upgraded to legions. These legions relieve horsemen from garrison duty so that they can be upgraded and sent to the front.

If you want to move Byzantium, build workers/settlers out of it.

Here it is, I went for Music Theory cause I think we might revolt to Republic after all.
Also got another leader which is waiting for Wonder business in the capitol. Copernicus was also my first choice, but already built by the Aztecs :(

Preflight - Looking good. :goodjob: Adrian.

IBT: Defeat a Bab and an English longbow, 1 Legion promoting to Elite.
Neapolis Knight --> Knight.
Hispalis Knight --> Knight.
Byzantium Worker --> Knight.
Syracuse Knight --> Knight.
Palmyra Knight --> Knight.
Gordion Catapult --> Worker.
Agrippina Cat --> Cat.

Turn 1 - 660 AD: Loose a Knight attacking Dover. Elite Longbow captures it and razes it (I forgot we had a GL standing around... From now on, only vet wins for a while :) Disband workers. Got 29 gold.
Kill a Bab Spear/Settler pair, promoting Knight to Elite.

IBT: Loose 2 HPs to an Eng Knight outside
Cumae Knight --> Knight.
Ravenna Leg --> Forum.
Aesonesium Portus --> Knight.

Turn 2 - 670 AD: Destroy Rheims, 0 gold, no workers. I don't know if Adrian intended our settler to be used for this spot, but I'll save it for a gems spot. I know we may not need it straight away, but corruption is awful in this area anyway and I'm intrigued by klarius' Republic idea.

IBT: Loose Elite Legion to Bab Longbow :(
Pompeii Settler --> Forum.
Artaxata Granarium --> Forum.

Turn 3 - 680 AD: Hiawatha wants WM and 380 gold for Music Theory. You've got a deal my feathered friend :)
Hurry Bach's in Pompeii.
Tyrus founded on RCP 9 from Artaxata, starts Knight.
1 Vet Knight retreats, another wins 3/4 against Eng Spear/Settler outside Londinium.
Destroy Newly founded Eridu, lossing 3 HPs on an Elite Knight.
Kill 2 Vet Bab Longbows outside Agrippina, both with 5/5 Legs, loosing 2 HPs on one.
Defeat Russian Musket/Settler in previous Rheims-area with a (now) 4/5 Knight.
Elite Knight retreats from American Reg Pike/Settler, inflicting 1 HP damage.
Vet Knight finishes off the American Pike and promotes.
Japan has Chemistry and no Music Theory, but no deal.

IBT: Loose 2 Elite Knights to American Knights. Loose an Elite Leg to German Knight. Defend succesfully at other attacks.
Rome Knight --> Knight.
Antium: Forum --> Knight.
Nicomedia: Biliotheca --> Forum.
Pompeii Bach's --> Forum.
Brundisium Settler --> Settler.
The English are building Smith's...

Turn 4 - 690 AD: Defeat 2 American Knights with Vet Knights, loosing nothing.
Lots of bombarding ain the Rheims/area. Elite 4\5 Knight defeats redlined Jerry Knight and we have another leader :D
Take out Jerry 3/3 Pike/Settler pair with Elite* Legion, no HP loss.
Switch build in Artaxata to Legion.

IBT: Loose 3 Vet Knights to Russian and English Knights, kill 2 attacking Knights and redlining a 3rd. I didn't expect such an amount of Knights after the reports. I'm also a little disappointed we haven't unhooked more resources from our op's...
Veii Knight --> Knight.
Viroconium Knight --> Knight.
Gonzo Cat --> Cat.
Arretium Warrior --> Worker.
We\ve got 5 cities celebrating the Emperor.

Turn 5 - 700 AD: Raze Lyons, 4 gold. Disband 4 French workers. No losses but a few HP off one vet Knight.
Defeat one of the IBT-attacking Eng Knights, 4/5 Legion.
Kill a Bab roaming spear with our Knights army on a hill outside Londinium for 7 HP lost (!).
Loose a Vet Knight to Reg Pike in recently founded Seattle. Next Vet Knight kills the Pike.
Kill a Vet Eng Knight with a 4/4 Knight.
Kill a 4/4 American Knight our 4/4 Knight is now 1/4.
Kill a 1/3 American Knight and raze Seattle.

IBT: Loose Elite Legion to Russian Knight, redlining it.
Ceasaraugusta Worker --> Worker.
Aurelianorum Knight --> Knight.

Turn 6 - 710 AD: Retreat a Vet Knight against a rushed Musket in Nottingham. Next Vet Knight kills it. Lizzie has been slow getting muskets. She's got mostly pikes and also quite a few spears.
Loose a Vet Knight against a 2/4 German Knight without denting it. Next Vet Knight kills it w/o loss.
Kill a 2/4 Musket with a Vet Knight (2/4).
Kill a 2/3 Bab Longbow w/o loss, 4/4 Knight.
Kill the 1/4 Russian Knight that killed our Elite Legion, 4/4 Knight.
Kill a 3/3 Bab Longbow with our Legion army, loosing 2 HPs.
Upgrade 5 horses to Knights because of ships roaming our waters in the S and near Brundisium.

IBT: Loose a HP off a healty Vet Knight outside Nottingham.
Loose a Vet (I think) Legion to an Eng Knight in the Lyons area.
Londinium Worker --> Forum.
Neapolis Knight --> Knight.
Pisae Bibliotheca --> Settler.
2 more emperor celebrations.

Turn 7 - 720 AD: Kill the Knight that killed our Vet Legion, Knight is 2/4.
Retreat a Vet Knight, kill a Reg Musket in Nottingham.

IBT: 4/4 Knight wins against Reg German Knight, loosing 2 HPs. 3/4 Knight looses to German Vet Knight, taking off two HPs, the German Knight promotes. Rheims area.
Lugdunum Bibliotheca --> Settler.
Brundisium Settler --> Forum.
Artaxata Leg --> Forum.
Arretium Worker --> Worker.
Cyrene Worker --> Portus.

Turn 8 - 730 AD: Hiawatha wants WM + 742 gold for Astronomy or WM + 690 gold for Banking. I take the Banking deal, hoping for a quick Economics deal (realized in the last minute that Copernicus had been built by the Aztecs). Neither Iroq or Japanese have it :sad:
Kill the Elite Knight after bombarding it a couple of times, only one hit though.
Kill a French 3/3 Longbow outside Tarrentia.
Kill English 4/4 Longbow outside Nottingham Vet Knight loose a HP.

IBT: Loose 2 vet Knights, take out a Vet German Knight.
Rome: Knight --> Knight.
Cumae Knight --> Knight.
Caesarea Worker --> Worker.
Lutetia Forum --> Knight.
Eburacum Cat --> Knight.

Turn 9 - 740 AD: Elite* Leg kills reg Spear in Orleans, 2/5. Vet Knight looses a HP but promotes, razing Orleans.
Kill a reg Russian musket after softening it to 1/3 with Cats.
Found our future Gem city, Gem City, in France; start Temple. Reload cause I forgot to disband Russian workers and they were converted to shields in our new city. (I wasn't sure about the ruling on this one. I didn't move them or anything. Would it be ok to keep them?
Kill a Vet German Knight, loosing 1 Vet Knight and severly wounding another (1/4).
Found Verona at RCP=9 from Artaxata, start Portus.

IBT: Nicopolis Portus --> Bibliotheca.
Pisae Settler --> Knight.
Viroconium Knight --> Knight.
Gonzo Cat --> Knight.
Palmyra Knight --> Knight.
The Aztecs are building Smith's. None of our "friends" have Eonomics yet.

Turn 10 - 750 AD: Buy Temple in Gem City.
Not much action, kill a Reg Bab Longbow. Gather our forces in Gem City for strike against Marseilles.

Our military:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Sgotm3_military_750_AD.jpg
There's also 3 Settlers 30-something workers and a couple of obsolete units + an Elite Longbow.

After action report: I felt it was time we picked up the pace a bit. I may have lost a few units, but I think I just about replenished them. France is down to 3 cities and I razed all the fill-ins by the AI.

We're making good progress with Knights. I think we should stick to Knights until this island is secured, min research towards MT.
I probably could have gotten Chivalry during my turns, that would have meant saving more and I'd rather get as many deals as possible before the inevitable war breaks out, though. I think we may benefit from growing the palace core big if we decide to stay with Monarchy (size 12 cities). Banks will be a big help then, but really, I got Banking only as a gamble towards getting Economics for our available leader.

I had very few elite wins on offense after I got the GL and I don't think I could have moved faster so I don't think we lost much in keeping the last leader around for a few turns. I'm just a little :confused: about what to do with all these leaders. The armies don't seem to help much and I really think that the poor Vanilla Civ armies are a lousy way to use MGLs.
I won't bicker if you want to is it for an army though... well, not much :cool:
Like I said in the turnlog, I hope for Economics to be available cause I think we should benefit from Smith's, espescially if we go for Republic which will require Forums in all cities.

Military approach: Marseilles should fall pretty easily. I think we should direct much of the Cats over towards England b/c their Pike/Spear defenses will hurt badly from a good Cat stack. We can mop up the remnants of France on this continent without Cats. After France, finish England and start on Bab; 1 strong and 1 weak enemy at the time.

I'm almost done roading up through the mountains and into the core of former France.

Edit: note on Republic: We can for sure keep WW at bay with 6 resources on hand after we've finished our own continent. We just need to make sure we eliminate AI civs instead of keeping them around indefinately. That will mean sending a good force to the barb island, probably before we take out the last continent city so the AIs still have corruption on the island.

Nicely done.

I was thinking that settler could have gone to Paris to set up a worker pump. However another lux is good.

I concur on taking down the English core next.

Smith's is not a bad gamble. It won't do much for us (save 15gpt or so) but denying it to the AI is valuable. If the AI's get it then one of them may have a 40GPT boost which they will put into research. Slowing the tech pace benefits us greatly.

Is there enough land on our continent and the middle one to achieve a domination win? If so, is that a realistic way to go?

Adrian

Got it!!
edit - Nice job Capt., got a lot done. :goodjob:

Haven't looked at the save yet but could play it tonight (about 5-6 hours) unless there is a need for more discussion. Please let me know whether to go or hold until tomorrow.

Pulled out this from Alan's first post:
[EDIT] Table corrected - I missed out India. Thanks Klarius.
Code:

Civ Contact date/turn Latest DoW date/turn
Greece 2270 BC / Turn #37 2270 BC / Turn #37 (1st contact)
France 1990 BC / Turn #44 1575 BC / Turn #57 Declared
England 1625 BC / Turn #55 1075 BC / Turn #77 Declared
America 1500 BC / Turn #60 610 BC / Turn #97 They declared 975 BC
Russia 1500 BC / Turn #60 210 BC / Turn #117 They declared 775 BC
Babylon 1450 BC / Turn #62 190 AD / Turn #137 They declared 750 BC
Germany 1325 BC / Turn #67 420 AD / Turn #157 They declared 510 BC
India 250 BC / Turn #115 620 AD / Turn #177
Aztecs 250 BC / Turn #115 820 AD / Turn #197
Iroquois 250 BC / Turn #115 1020 AD / Turn #217
Japanese 250 BC / Turn #115 1220 AD / Turn #237


-------------------------------------------------------
Since we already at war with the Aztecs, I do not need to remember to declare on anyone. Is this correct?

Looks like I'm going for a tour of England, with a whole lot of friends (Knights)!! :D

I disagree a lot ;) .
If we agree we need cavs for the other continent there's no use impaling a lot of knights now. So the hard targets in England can be left for the cavs and the knights should go after softer targets, which we also have lots of.
MT should be researched as fast as possible, this means first save money to buy techs, now that the money is wasted on IMO useless techs. I think it's too late for republic now. We hopefully will have MT in about 30 turns from now.
If we get a 6 or 7 turn anarchy we cannot make up for the loss. Also we need to buy techs as long as we can and it can happen any turn that there is another DoW.
If we would have Astronomy and Chemistry by now I would have considered it, for the money we can gain towards upgrades, but we need money now not in 5-8 turns.

Also I don't like all this knight production. We have Leonardo's and can later mass upgrade units when we have the money to spare.

There are other things I don't like, but enough rant.
Overall :goodjob: .

I disagree a lot ;) .

Also I don't like all this knight production. We have Leonardo's and can later mass upgrade units when we have the money to spare.

There are other things I don't like, but enough rant.
Overall :goodjob: .
I am very intrigued by your fast conquest concept. I would appreciate some feedback on where you think we are what course we should follow for the next several sets of turns.

If I could try to summarize what I think you have said:
1. Do not attack England until we have Cavalry. Continue to the softer targets, Babs, Germany and Russia?

2. Build Libraries and Marketplaces in cities that have reasonable productivity and disconnect the iron and build horsemen for mass upgrade when we get MT.

3. Research. All cash should be saved to get Chemistry, then research to MT. Also, we should get Astronomy asap.

4. Need to get the new core up and running by sending over some units to clean out the barbs and get some settlers there and settled at ring dist=6.

5. Anything else?

Thanks. :)

1. We are set up for Nottingham, so raze it. Newcastle could also go. Other than that only the size 6 resource cities Canterbury (!) and York are interesting. It would be nice if we had some marine transport around for some sneak attacks, but we don't. But we can march through England, best with a knight army and some stacked knights. That's what I would recommend for England currently. There are small Bab and French cities around these would be also targets. This can be worked probably in parallel.

2. There are still some coastal towns w/o libraries and harbors. These should come first. Markets only where one sees a need coming up. Definitely not in cities needing an aqueduct first to grow. The tax benefit alone does rarely justify a market. Only if one needs the happiness they are justified. It will take a long time to grow cities to sizes where it really needs a market. The game may be over by then already. Especially if all the people continue to mine every grassland they find instead of irrigating.
And BTW I will continue my rant if I should find a bank in our empire. These are only for long drawn games and very high commerce cities.

3. All cash saved for chemistry, then also buy astronomy and by this time maybe we are delayed enough to buy also metallurgy. But by this time we should probably have enough libraries that it doesn't make a difference whether we buy or research ourselves.

4. There are already two legions over there. Interestingly the Bab town over there is currently empty. Maybe watch a few turns first how it soaks up the barbs. On the other side Babylon is anyways so backwards that we don't have much benefit from their losses. So searching and removing the camps could be a good idea. In the north you should look where towns are needed to block trading routes. I hate to pillage roads which our cavs may need later.

5. I looked into the save. Several cities in our old core have grown to size 7 and are wasting food in the now larger box. We still have no food to waste there.
I think we also need more galleys. First to transport some units, second for later upgrade.
There are a lot of strange worker actions going on. Mines near cities which need food. Mines at irrigated tiles, which are needed if we want some more settlers. Improvements near totally corrupt cities not needed in the next 30-40 turns.

I'd go after England now. They are rich and leading in research. Use the hammer of the cats, covered by the legion army. Bombard the big cities into rubble and then raze them. You want to reduce the city sizes to less than 7 before attacking. This requires all the "slow" units , cats and a few knights. The remainder of the knights go after the weaker targets like Babylon.

We might want to consider leaving a french city on our continent alone. We don't want their capital jumping to the new continent.

We are now at the point where the valleys (plains and grass) need to be irrigated and the hills mined. A mined grass land produces 2F and 1S. If it is irrigated (3F 0s) it can support a citizen working a mined hill (1F, 3S). The choice is between 1S or 3S. I'll take the 3 shields please.

I don't mind size 7 cities as long as all the citizens are working. The bigger cities can produce knights faster.

Harbors are only useful if you are working the water tiles. Markets are always useful especially since we are using single scientist research. Libraries should only be built if a town generates enough science to benefit from it. My priorities are markets, harbours then libraries.

I completely disagree about banks. Build them if we have cash flow issues. After we get military tradition we can cash rush units (ie a navy). Cash is valuable.

Roster:

Klarius
AdrianE
Capt Buttkick
leif erikson UP
AlanH On deck

Wow! For people with other pressing demands on their time you seem to have moved this game on very fast! I have some catching up to do on the discussion, so I'll go away and study the map and the options you've all raised.

When did we start a war with the Aztecs? I can't find it in the turn logs and I need to update our Record of Xenophobia on the first page.

Just for the record, I think we need to recognise that (1) we have moved from survival mode to a clear probablility of victory, and (2) we need the fastest victory we can achieve. If domination can be achieved without capturing significant territory on the other major continent then I suspect domination is potentially faster than conquest. By the time we have cavalry we'll be fighting rifles at least, and it will take some time to transport forces and destroy the number of cities we see on the Aztec/India continent. Do we know enough of the world map to determine the domination options yet?

If domination can be achieved without capturing significant territory on the other major continent then I suspect domination is potentially faster than conquest.

Fastest date relative to Jason best date is the victory condition.
The best date for conquest is 200 years later than domination, if I recall correctly.
And one would need for sure a big bite out of the other continent for domination. I doubt that conquering (and resettling and building culture) of one nation there would be enough. If we are able to do this we can also go for conquest.

Do we know enough of the world map to determine the domination options yet?
Just did a MapStat check. It looks to me like we will need more than our continent to win by domination. It is hard to figure exactly because some of the territory is unclaimed due to wars. Adding up the French, German, Babs, English and Americans gives us about half of what we need, including ourselves, we are short by around 400 tiles. I made a huge assumption doing it like this because some of the civs have settled on the middle island, so I assumed that these land compensated for the unclaimed on our continent. Sorry, don't have time to sit and count them all! :eek: Not sure what the middle island will yield. That is a lot of settlers!

edit - cross posted with Klarius, I agree, our best bet is conquest.

Also again, there is Team Smackster. According to their score curve they are settling like crazy. If they don't go for some really crazy victory condition for the variant that means that even with their headstart they couldn't reach domination in 1250 AD.
I'm pretty sure somebody will reach conquest before this date.

@Leif
I rechecked the tech situation. It may already be feasible to self research after acquiring chemistry. We should get down to 4-6 turns per tech.

We indeed were settling like crazy, and yes we haven't reached a domination win by 1250, but we did it by 1300AD...
I hope you guys can't beat that....
... oh... hope you also don' tmind me lurking around here ;)

Played 3 turns so far, but it is late and I don't want to screw up by sleeping through turns. :sleep:

Progress Report.
Went through our cities and made a handful of changes. It took over an hour. :eek:

Razed Uruk on the middle island and plan to start building a city near there next turn. Haven't used the leader yet but have shipped him to the island and will build an army of legions there.

Razed Newcastle and Nottingham and am headed to the NW coast of England with a Knight Army and 3 or 4 Knights along for the ride.

Razed Marseilles. Looking to take the Legion Army and most of the Cats through Bab land into northern England to get their supply of horses. (They have 2) The other we'll get with the southern group.

Have amassed 660 Gold but have been unable to trade for Chemistry or Astronomy yet. Economics is also available. Checked self research but it would have been 7 turns with positive cash flow (21 GPT) or 6 turns with a negative cash flow (I think it was 25 or 30 GPT). Decided to keep making gold to buy techs with. I am hoping Metalurgy becomes available as well, but I am not sure how we will afford it. AT what point should I quit trying to buy and begin self-research?

Got to watch those sneaky Aztecs. They actually landed 5 units 2 squares from Veii and I had to really scrap to get enough units to do them in quickly. There was no damage, just dead Aztecs! :mischief:

See you in the morning!! :coffee:

We indeed were settling like crazy, and yes we haven't reached a domination win by 1250, but we did it by 1300AD...
I hope you guys can't beat that....
... oh... hope you also don' tmind me lurking around here ;)
Looks like a gauntlet has been laid before us!! :p

Congrats to team Smackster, hope we beat you though!! :mischief:

We'll encourage you all the way and I hope you do beat us, maybe we can learn something from you. However I have instructed my team (like they listen to me) not to give out any spoiler hints by accident.

I'm going to have to find that leash for Dmanakho's enthusiasm :)

smackster

Razed Uruk on the middle island and plan to start building a city near there next turn. Haven't used the leader yet but have shipped him to the island and will build an army of legions there.

For future reference:
You could have shipped an empty army or an army with one unit in, to immediately use up the leader and get the Pentagon message.


Have amassed 660 Gold but have been unable to trade for Chemistry or Astronomy yet. Economics is also available. Checked self research but it would have been 7 turns with positive cash flow (21 GPT) or 6 turns with a negative cash flow (I think it was 25 or 30 GPT). Decided to keep making gold to buy techs with. I am hoping Metalurgy becomes available as well, but I am not sure how we will afford it. AT what point should I quit trying to buy and begin self-research?

I think immediately after buying chemistry. But check how much I missjudged our research capability first :lol: . Before buying chemistry you can check also what they want for astronomy (or at least find out for what they don't sell). After buying, compare with our research cost. If its the same or not much more expensive to self research then research (for metallurgy) and don't risk that they declare.
BTW I looked into the 750 save once more. We can trade luxes and ressources (though no actual trade possible), they have already navigation.
Look in the next turns and offer our spare luxes. They may give a few gpt if they have some available.
Pillaging the roads around the only english harbor in Hastings would now also be beneficial. They probably have traded luxes to England.


Got to watch those sneaky Aztecs. They actually landed 5 units 2 squares from Veii and I had to really scrap to get enough units to do them in quickly. There was no damage, just dead Aztecs! :mischief:

Very nice. They urgently need some losses.
You're right we have to watch them. A few more galleys to watch out wouldn't hurt.
There may be also opportunities to bombard them from land with cats and kill with galleys, though I wouldn't make extra cats for that. Still cats are much more efficient against soft targets than against muskets in big cities.

For future reference:
You could have shipped an empty army or an army with one unit in, to immediately use up the leader and get the Pentagon message.
I should have thought of that, must be getting old?? :eek:
BTW I looked into the 750 save once more. We can trade luxes and ressources (though no actual trade possible), they have already navigation.
Look in the next turns and offer our spare luxes. They may give a few gpt if they have some available.
The only question is how much will a GPT deal slow their research rate, since it would be nice if they get Metallurgy. Of course, they may have it and we can't see it because we have to get Chemistry first. If they have it, it wouldn't matter and GPT would be nice. I'll see what I can do?? :crazyeye:
Pillaging the roads around the only english harbor in Hastings would now also be beneficial. They probably have traded luxes to England.
Isolating England is what I had in mind... :mischief:

I tried offering our lux, but they won't pay gpt. I wonder why :lol:

The points you made against my turns, klarius, were in some way valid. However, with regards to the research/trading/knights building I don't think we're much worse off from my way of doing things. I focused on what I thought we'd agreed on, trading as long as possible while building infrastructure. Knights are of course a lot better than horsies up to the point when we actually have gold to spend on upgrades.

Cities hitting size 7: You will notice that my settler builds are from cities that need aqueducts to grow. With our current happyness level we've got no probs with cities growing large and we really don't have all that many cities more to settle until we've come a bit further with clearing out barb island. So no point in making settlers. Some of the worker actions that you found unnessecary may be just that. I should have bounded a few more workers together and maybe moved them over to our new core, I can agree on that. But I never felt we were in very short demand of workers in our old core.

W/r to the workers mining in our old core: They're mining the tiles of a size-6 city w/o aqeduct and with a food-surplus of 4 (IIRC). How come that is bad?

I tried offering our lux, but they won't pay gpt. I wonder why :lol:

Well, the answer is not our bad reputation :eek: .
Civs do pay gpt for lux or ressources even if you're reputation is down the drain. They will not pay much gpt, but a few are possible.
But they will never pay even a single gold piece cash for any 20 turn deal.

So they don't have any gpt to spare. That's not so surprising, they did buy a lot techs from the civs on our continent.

Ah, yes. I should have known that. I reread the AI trade article just previous to this sgotm.
I agree they're probably paying gpts to the tech leaders on our continent.

To avoid a crossposting-editing ping-pong :lol: a new post.

However, with regards to the research/trading/knights building I don't think we're much worse off from my way of doing things. I focused on what I thought we'd agreed on, trading as long as possible while building infrastructure. Knights are of course a lot better than horsies up to the point when we actually have gold to spend on upgrades.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough:
I want this game finished in the 1100-1300 AD range. For this goal we need MT as soon as possible. Any optional tech is just a waste of time.
Wrt to knights:
Ok we can build some to make some progress in the north, but in the long run it's faster to wait for cavs and hit then hard and fast. With 30-40 cavs, you can clean out a civ in 2-4 turns.
It's too late in the game for knight rushes. The culture boundaries of the big cities are already very large and everybody has muskets. Combined arms is much too slow, for my intended conquest date.


Cities hitting size 7: You will notice that my settler builds are from cities that need aqueducts to grow. With our current happyness level we've got no probs with cities growing large and we really don't have all that many cities more to settle until we've come a bit further with clearing out barb island. So no point in making settlers. Some of the worker actions that you found unnessecary may be just that. I should have bounded a few more workers together and maybe moved them over to our new core, I can agree on that. But I never felt we were in very short demand of workers in our old core.

The cities growing to size 7 were the ones with granaries. If we need still a few settlers, these are the ones best suited for this.
One can grow cities to size seven, but then they should not take food away. They should be managed to zero surplus and then immediately grown to size 8 or 9 by merging in workers.
This should be done probably only in one or two cities so that the others have enough tiles.


W/r to the workers mining in our old core: They're mining the tiles of a size-6 city w/o aqeduct and with a food-surplus of 4 (IIRC). How come that is bad?
I'm talking of the irrigated game between Pompeii and Lugdunum, this can be used by the river city Lugdunum, which could get a top notch city.
Or by Pompeii at size 6 together with 5 mined hills, zero food surplus, 15 uncorrupted shield.

I'm familiar with the power of cavs.
My point is using Knights while they're effective. Knights vs. Muskets are 4-4. Cavs vs. Rifles are 6-6. We can't wait long before the AI has Cavs. I'd rather loose a few Knights and make some ground work before the AIs get rifles.
I agree that Banking was a redundant tech if we're not going to switch govs and maybe even then. It'll take some time to grow our new core anyway.


I see your point on city size and mining. I'm just not used to MMing that heavily this late in a game. I'll try to conform if I get another 10 turns and if not for the next sgotm :)

@Captn
These small points with city management aren't really a big deal. But the not needed techs are. It looks now that we still can buy the techs we need, but that could have been different. We had already a lot of DoWs on us.
My point with cavs is really, that we need them anyway for a quick conquest of the other continent. Then it doesn't make much sense to loose knights now, which can upgrade to cavs for only 10 gold. That's why I say let the harder targets to the cavs (a big city is not 4/4).
I don't expect to meet many rifles even if we should be delayed a bit. If we go very fast to cavs we may do it w/o rifles at all. Even when the civs have nationalism you mainly meet one rifle on top and the rest is obsolete units.

Short summary of good and bad news.
1. We have Chemistry but, despite 1035 Gold, no Metallurgy yet? I decide to try and buy Metallurgy because it would have been several turns faster, now I am not sure it was the right decision. I hope Alan can secure it soon. I would definately self-research MT.
2. We are now at war with Iroquois, we have only Japan left to trade with.
3. England has Cavalry, but I have not seen Cav from the other nations.


After Action Report.
Our Firaxis score is now 1072.

We have Chemistry but not Metallurgy. The Iroquois declared war on us at the behest of the Aztecs between turns 197 and 198. Japan has Metallurgy but has refused to sell it to us. We do have a GPT deal with Japan for all three of our Lux’s. Our gem supply was cut off by a German Pike and we have a worker in Gem City next turn.

Our Treasury contains 1035 Gold and we are earning 191 GPT. Our Scientist is located in Neocaledonium, way down south of Rome, so we are at 10.0.0. To self-research Metallurgy will require 7 turns making GPT and 6 turns losing GPT. At 100% research, we can have Metallurgy in 5 turns losing 94 GPT.

AI military activity has dropped off the last couple of turns. Early, saw a number of English Cavalry units, but I haven’t seen any for the last 4 turns. There are a number of different Galleys and Caravels traversing our southern coast right now and they may contain units because they only showed up in the last turn or two. Consistently, the AI have sailed up the bay towards Rome and disembarked units near Veii. The Aztecs and the English have done this. There is also a French Galley up north near Gordion and a Bab Galley near Artaxata. The Bab Galley is unloaded as it dropped a settler on the middle island that was destroyed.

We can now build The Pentagon, but I have not done so or started it.

edit - Almost forgot, there are several settler about, 6 iirc. Along our western border in the cities, there settlers are there because I couldn't decide what to do with them. I didn't want to push out too fast with English Cav around but I thought I should build some more cities because the support reduced the GPT maintenance required. Then I thought about saving them for when we had cavs ourselves and we could backfill England with them.
There are also some settlers headed for the eastern coast for use on the middle isle. In fact, one is aboard a galley that you can place wherever you think is best. I had planned on a plains tile beside a river at dist.=6.5, between the two cities already there.
As always, please feel free to change any build you think needs it.

Good luck Alan, you will find the hunting plentiful!! :D

<< The Save >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Xteam_SG003_AD0850_01.SAV)

The turnlog.

Pre-flight – I have decided, based upon the team’s input, to got through the cities and reevaluate the builds.
Tyrus – Change from Knight to Galley.
Neocaledonium – Upgrade Horseman to Knight because of the Aztec ships off shore.
Palmyra – Change buiuld from Knight to Library.
Viroconium – Change form Knight to Settler.
Rome – Change from Knight to Settler.
Byzantium – Change from Knight to Library.
Arretium – Change from Longbowman to Library.
MM Artaxata
Remove settler from Galley near Artaxata and replace him with 2 Legions.
Check science slider and it will require 7 turns to complete Chemistry while making gold and 6 turns while losing gold. I decide to leave slider at 0%.
Everything else looks O.K., so I press enter.

IBT
Lots of naval movement, Aztecs (2 Galleys and a Caravel) head up into bay.
English Longbowmen (LB) (2) move out of Nottingham beside our stack.
Barb Warrior enter Uruk, at the end of the turn, a Reg. Spear shows up.
Gem City Temple – Worker.
Veii Knight – Settler.
Antium Knight – Worker.
Hispalis Knight – Settler.
Lugdunum Settler – Knight.
Hippo Regius Library – Harbor.
Syracuse Knight – Library.
Caesaraugustus Worker – Worker.
Gordion Worker – Harbor.

Turn 191 – 760 AD
Around Gem City
Move Catapults that were not in the city, 8 in all, to the mountain overlooking Marsailles along with 3 Elite Legions and an Elite Knight and 2 Vet Knights.
NE of Agrippina, Vet Knight attacks Reg. French LB – kills him losing 1 HP.
Around Nottingham – Elite LB attacks Reg. English LB and defeats him without loss. Vet Knight attacks Reg. English LB and retreats redlined causing 1 HP damage?? Vet Knight attacks same LB and defeats him, losing 2 HP and promoting to Elite.
Galley drops off 2 Legions on the wheat beside Uruk.
The Japanese have Economics in addition to Chemistry and Astronomy. The Iroquois have Chem and Astron but will not offer anything for trade.(We have 300 Gold)

IBT
The Japanese request an audience. They want our WM plus 50 Gold for their WM. I say see ya!!
The Germans request an audience. They want peace with honor, see ya!!
Aztecs land a Vet Pike and a Vet Sword near Veii.
Rome Settler – Knight.
Seleucia Library – Knight.
Antium Worker – Library.

Turn 192 – 770 AD
Near Veii
Vet Knight attacks Vet Aztec Pike, defeats him losing 3 HP.
Vet Knight attack Vet Aztec Sword, retreats after becoming redlined, does 2 HP damage.
Vet Knight attacks wounded Sword, defeats him without loss.
I see a Barb named Alamo.
Around Uruk
Vet Legion attacks Uruk defended by a Reg. Bab Spear, he defeats him and autorazes Uruk..
Around Marseilles – Catapult bombardment.
First Cat – takes 1 HP from Reg. French Musket.
2nd Cat – failed.
3rd Cat – takes 1 HP from Reg. French Pike.
4th Cat – failed.
5th Cat – failed.
6th Cat – failed.
7th Cat – failed.
8th Cat – failed.
Elite Knight attacks Musket (2/3), defeats him losing 1 HP.
Vet Knight attacks Reg. Spear, defeats him losing 2 HP and promotes to Elite.
Elite Legion attacks Pike (2/3), Legion dies without inflicting any loss, Pike promotes.
Vet Knight attacks Pike (now 3/4), defeats him without loss and promotes.
Elite Legion attacks Reg. Spear, defeats him losing 1 HP.
We raze Marseilles and disband worker.
Wake Cats in gem City and bombard American Vet Pike. In 5 shots, we hit twice.
Vet Knight attacks Pike (2/4), defeats him, losing 3 HP. Disband workers.
Wake Vet Knight in Gem City and attack German Reg. Knight, loses but redlines the German Knight.
Around Nottingham
Vet Knight attacks Reg. English Musket, Knight dies inflicting 1 HP.
Vet Knight attacks Reg. Pike, defeats him losing 1 HP.
Vet Knight attacks Reg. Pike, defeats him without loss and promotes.
Elite Knight attacks Reg. Musket (2/3), defeats him losing 1 HP and capturing 13 Gold.
We raze the city and disband the workers.
Around Newcastle.
Vet Knight attacks Reg. English Knight, is defeated without inflicting any loss??
Vet Knight attacks same Knight and dies, inflicting 2 HP loss and the English Knight promotes.
Vet Knight attacks same Knight and kills him, losing 3 HP and capturing 2 workers, which are disbanded.

Our friends are not interested in selling us any techs yet.

IBT
The Americans request an audience. They want peace, see ya!!
The English request an audience. She would give us the tech of our choice, but alas, I must turn down the fair lass!
Reg. Russian Knight attacks our Elite Legion (3/5) and defeats him, getting redlined in the process but promotes.
Aztecs land more troops near Veii, a Reg. Jaguar Warrior, 2 Reg. LB, and a Vet Sword.
Around Newcastle, funny things occur. The English move 2 Reg. Muskets to cover their workers and then the workers move into the city.
Neapolis Knight – Knight.
Viroconium Settler – Knight.

Turn 193 – 780 AD
Around Brundisium.
Vet Legion attacks Vet Aztec Sword, defeats him without loss.
Vet Knight attacks Reg. Jaguar Warrior, defeats him redlining in the process??
Vet Knight attacks Reg. LB, defeats him losing 1 HP.
Vet Legion attacks Reg. LB, defeats him losing 2 HP.
Around Gem City – Cats bombard a Russian Reg. Spear with settler, 2 out of 3 hit.
Elite (3/5) Knight attacks the Russian Spear and defeats him, redlining. Disband workers.
Elite Knight (4/5) attacks German Knight (1/3), defeats him without loss
Cats bomb Vet Russian Knight and redline it.
Elite Knight attacks Russian Knight (1/4), defeats him losing 1 HP.
Around Newcastle.
Vet Knight attacks Reg. English Musket, defeats him redlining in the process.
Elite Knight attacks Reg. Spear, defeats him and razes Newcastle, gaining 5 Gold and disbanding 6 workers.
Despite 665 Gold and 159 GPT, I can’t seem to get any offers for any tech??
Tried to offer all three luxuries and got the same answer, NO!!

IBT
Vet German Knight attacks our Elite Knight (4/5), who is on a hill, and defeats him losing 1 HP.
English move muskets and settler east. Bad news, England has Cavalry!!
Veii Settler – Knight.
Tarentum Library – Knight.

Turn 194 – 790 AD
Around Gem City – Cat bombard German Knight, 2 shots, 2 hits.
Vet Knight attacks German Vet Knight (1/4), defeats him without loss and promotes.
East of London.
Vet Knight attacks Vet English Cavalry, defeats him, losing 2 HP and promotes.
Begin movement of Knight Army with 3 Vet Knights into English territory. The intention is to head SW to cut off Hastings through pillaging and then turn north to pillage horses and other resources, and ending up trying to destroy York and Canterbury.
Elite LB attacks Reg. English Musket guarding a settler, LB defeats him and captures the settler, losing 3 HP. Workers are disbanded.
Vet Knight attacks Reg. American Spear guarding a settler, Knight retreats redlined and causes no damage to Spear??
Vet Knight attacks same Spear, defeats Spear losing 2 HP and promotes to Elite. Workers are disbanded.
South of Gem City – Cat Bombards a lone German Vet Knight and misses.
Vet Knight attacks German Vet Knight, losses while redlining the German Knight.
Vet Knight attacks redlined German Knight, defeats him without loss. Spots a Bab Bowman with a settler and a Vet Knight attacks the Reg. Bab. Bowman, defeats him losing 2 HP, workers are disbanded.
Visit the Iroquois and Japanese. The Japanese will sell me Astronomy for WM plus 720 Gold, they will not sell us Chemistry. The Iroquois will sell us Chemistry for WM plus 820 gold. I decide that we need Chemistry more at the moment, so I purchase Chemistry.
We can research Metallurgy in 10 turns at 50%, with a plus 18 GPT or in 9 turns at 60% at minus 2 GPT. We have 6 Gold in the treasury. We are making 152 GPT currently and Japan has Metallurgy, so in 6 turns, we can have 900 gold to purchase it. I decide not to research it.
We have 7 settlers and get 2 units supported per town, so I am looking for city sites to lower the GPT support costs. Need to build some on the island near our new palace.

IBT
No AI attacks. An English Reg. Cavalry moved up to threaten us east of London.
Jerusalem Library – Harbor.
Byzantium Library – Forum.
Lunacantorium Courthouse – Library.
We are informed that the Japanese are building Smith’s Trading Company.
There are some “We Love the Emperor Days”.

Turn 195 – 800 AD
Change production in Hispalis from Settler to Courthouse.
Found town of Corfinium on middle island. Set to Harbor.
Move Trajan into Corfinium and form an Army. Load 2 Vet Legions into Army.
East of London.
Vet Knight attacks a Reg. English Cav, defeats him losing 3 HP.
Pillage 2 squares around London as we seek to cut off Hastings.
Move Legion Army, Knight and Cats into Bab territory.
No offers for our lux’s or for any Techs.

IBT
England Lands 2 LB near Veii.
2 German Knights are seen from Gem City heading for us.
We are asked if we would like to build The Pentagon.
Cumae Knight – Knight.
Pompeii Marketplace – Library.
Lutetia Knight – Library.

We are informed that the Iroquois are building Smith’s Trading Co.

Turn 196 – 810 AD
Near Veii, 2 English Reg. Longbowmen.
Vet Knight attacks LB, defeats him with no loss.
Vet Knight attacks LB, defeats him without loss.
Pillage near Hastings.
North of Nicopolis – Vet Knight attacks a Reg. English Musket, defeats him losing 2 HP.
No deals with our friends.

IBT
Amazing, an American Reg. Knight attacks an Elite LB (3/5), in a jungle, and is defeated, redlining the LB.
More German Knights and a Russian Musket. The Musket moves onto a road N of Gem City, apparently to pillage. Also, a German Pike moves onto a gem square and I can’t get to him to stop the pillage.
I am going to have to reinforce Gem City, I guess.
The French request an audience. She wants peace and would give us the tech of our choice, but alas my Dear, I must not!!
Nicomedia Marketplace – Knight.
Ravenna Marketplace – Library.

Turn 197 – 820 AD
Found the town of Mediolanum, production to worker.
Around Gem City – Cat Bombard Reg. Russian Musket, 3 shot, 1 hit.
Elite Knight attacks Musket, Knight dies, doing 1 HP damage and Musket promotes.
Elite Knight attacks Musket (2/4), retreats redlined, did no damage.
SW of Gem City, Vet Knight attacks Vet American Knight, defeats him but is redlined.
Vet Knight attacks Bab Reg. Bowman, defeats him losing 1 HP.
Hastings is cut off from the rest of England.
I offer Japan our 3 Lux’s and they return with an offer of 3 GPT, I take it. I wonder if disconnecting Hastings had an effect here?
The Iroquois refuse all offers.

IBT
Great, The Aztecs have paid the Iroquois to declare war on us, we are now at war with everyone but Japan. The good news is that Japan has metallurgy, hope we can make a deal before they declare!
The Babs land a settler next to our on the middle island and Barb Horseman come up for a visit.
The German Pike disconnects our gems.
A Bab Vet Knight moves onto a mountain adjacent to Gem City.
2 German Knights move near Gordion.
Aztec caravel sails up along our south coast.
Pisae Knight – Knight.
Artaxata Marketplace – Library.
Tyrus Galley – Galley.

Turn 198 – 830 AD
Around Gem City – Cats Bombard Bab Vet Knight, missed 3 out of 3.
Reinforce Gem City and fortify in town.
Elite Knight attacks Vet German Knight, defeats him losing 2 HP.
Near Gordion.
Vet Knight attacks German Reg. Knight, defeats him, redlining, but promotes.
Elite Knight attacks German Reg. Knight, defeats him losing 1 HP. Reveals a German Pike with a settler on a mountain nearby.
Pillage some more around Hastings and London.
Continue to move Legion Army around to northern England, pillaging Babylon as we go.
Found town of Treveri, production to Library.
Found town of Sirmium on middle island, production to harbor. Fortify Elite Legion in city.

IBT
An American Reg. Knight shows up near London?
The Aztecs request an audience. They offer us peace if we will pay them 140 Gold. I smile wryly and give ‘em the boot.
Bab Vet Knight attacks Gem City, defended by an Elite legion, and the Knight dies doing 3 HP damage.
2 more Vet German Knights east of Gem City.
Barb Horsemen attack Sirmium but are easily defeated.
Rome Knight – Settler.
Antium Library – Knight.
Neapolis Knight – Knight.
Ceasarea Worker – Worker.
Aurelianorum Knight – Library.
Palmyra Library – Knight.

Turn 199 – 840 AD
Around Gem City – Cats bombard Reg. German Pike, 1 hit for 3 attempts.
Elite Knight attacks pike, defeats him losing 2 HP.
Near London – Elite Knight attacks a Reg. American Knight, defeats him losing 3 HP.
Pillage around London and move towards horse resource.
South of Gem City, Elite Knight(4/5) attacks Reg. German Pike with a settler, defeats him losing 1 HP and workers are disbanded.
Near Sirmium – Elite Legion attacks a Reg. Bab Spear with a settler, defeats him losing 2 HP and workers are disbanded.
The Japanese are still unwilling to part with Metallurgy, may have made a mistake in not researching it!!

IBT
Vet German Knight attacks Elite Knight (3/5) on mountain near Gem City and dies, inflicting 1 HP damage.
Vet German Knight attacks Elite Knight (2/5) and defeats him, no loss.
Many Barbs moving towards Sirmium.
Russian Reg. Knight attacks Vet Knight and dies, inflicting 2 HP damage.
Viroconium Knight – Library.
Syracuse Library – Knight.

Turn 10 – 850 AD
Around Gem City – Cats Bombard Vet German Knight, 3 shots, 1 hit.
Vet Knight attacks German Vet Knight (3/4), dies while inflicting 1 HP damage, German Knight promotes.
Elite Knight attacks same Knight, dies while redlining the German Knight.
Vet Knight attacks redlined Knight, defeats him while redlining.
Legion Army and cats continue move towards Warwick.
Despite a Treasury of 1035 Gold, the Japanese will not consider a trade for Metallurgy.

Looks good so far :goodjob: .
You did follow my advice to not risk knights a little bit too close for my taste. There are still soft targets around.
Losing the gems wasn't all that smart, but such things happen.

Note, if I look now on the map, it looks like devious cracker has made it impossible to go over the middle continent, so we need also astronomy.
Having still not more than two galleys, we should not buy it right away, but wait still one or two turns to buy metallurgy.
Then research MT as fast as possible.
After that upgrade the knights first, which only will be around 400g. Then we can see if we still can buy astronomy or have to research it.
In our tight core now the cities should grow, we don't need settlers now. In the future settlers can be rushed in high food corrupt cities.
We should merge in workers in our core cities to grow them above size 7 not waste the food. Goal is to have stable population everywhere.
There are several coastal cities which could benefit from an aqueduct. That should come before market.
It's too late for any more library builds. If we think we urgently need culture expansion in a city build a temple.
Also libraries not completing in the next 2-3 turns should be switched to something else.

We should disconnect iron now. We have lots of knights to upgrade first. We should now make horses for later upgrades.

There is now a harbor in America in a small town. That should be high on our list, but is probably not reachable by knights fast. So we should probably do it with cavs.

A good use for all these legions would be to ship them over to the middle continent and take out the cities there. These will be mostly defended by spears. If we loose some to longbows, ok, we don't need many. Other than that they should still be on mountains not in cities unless we need MP.

Seems like the sneak attack of Monty did something to you ;) . We don't need that many units in our core. Especially the legions should find some way to die honorably.

Looks good so far :goodjob: .
You did follow my advice to not risk knights a little bit too close for my taste. There are still soft targets around.
Losing the gems wasn't all that smart, but such things happen.
There are a lot of units heading out of Germany through the area around Gem City and not enough units to defend once they get past there, so I decided to use active defense there while the 2 Armies moved out to pillage England. I probably should have moved some Knights more aggressively into Bab and German territory, but it didn't seem the smart thing at the time. Losing the Gems was dumb, but it was better than losing the city. I kept losing Knights on mountains to German and Russian Knights, my usual battle with the RNG. I think it may be may time to buy a new computer certified as having a "special" RNG. :rolleyes:
A good use for all these legions would be to ship them over to the middle continent and take out the cities there. These will be mostly defended by spears. If we loose some to longbows, ok, we don't need many. Other than that they should still be on mountains not in cities unless we need MP.
I agree. The problem I found was getting the new core developed versus building shipping. There aren't too many coastal locations that are resonably productive to build Galleys. Where they can be built reasonably, you have to sail them around for 8 to 10 turns so they are useful. I think I got 1 built and have another on the way, iirc. Not good enough, I know, but I tried.
Seems like the sneak attack of Monty did something to you ;) . We don't need that many units in our core. Especially the legions should find some way to die honorably.
Yes, whenever the AI manages to send 4 or 5 units in a coordinated fashion, I make sure I have 4 or 5 units capable of meeting the challenge. I can only imagine what you would have written to me if I had lost Veii?? :eek: :cry: The first trip by Montie I was scrapping together whatever I could find as there were 4 undefended cities and the game square they could get to within a couple of turns. Then when England landed troops in the exact same place, and there are 6 ro 7 naval units floating around the south coast by the bay, I decided to leave some forces there, just in case. ;)

All I can say is, Don't forget to watch your back Alan!! :crazyeye:

Sounds like we're making good progress.

Roster:

Klarius On deck
AdrianE
Capt Buttkick
leif erikson
AlanH UP

I'll get it this evening. I have a lot of catching up to do. I scanned the discussions, but didn't have time to d/l and investigate the saves to see what you are all talking about, so please bear with me if I have some stoopid questions before I play over the weekend.

Yes, whenever the AI manages to send 4 or 5 units in a coordinated fashion, I make sure I have 4 or 5 units capable of meeting the challenge. I can only imagine what you would have written to me if I had lost Veii?? :eek: :cry: The first trip by Montie I was scrapping together whatever I could find as there were 4 undefended cities and the game square they could get to within a couple of turns. Then when England landed troops in the exact same place, and there are 6 ro 7 naval units floating around the south coast by the bay, I decided to leave some forces there, just in case.

All I can say is, Don't forget to watch your back Alan!! :crazyeye:
Losing Veii would in fact be bad, but that would be very poor performance. It's not necessary to kill an invasion on the first turn they come. You can put weak units and workers in their way, while you collect forces. Losing a few workers or horses ( if we had some like it should be ;) ) isn't a big problem.
If they should get a corrupt city, well so be it. We can get it back soon and they will suffer more WW than they had WH from capturing it. We are in monarchy and don't need to be extremely careful. ;)
But it looks like the AI really think the Brundisium Bay is the only point to attack. With MT hopefully less than 10 turns away I would have liked to see some of the otherwise useless cats around there. We could redline incoming ships already and if we could get a galley there take them out before they even land.

@Alan
As I see it in the save, we should be able to buy metal within 2-3 turns. This means MT can be reached in your turnset either by buying or by researching. You should look to it that the knights reach cities by then if possible, except a few which are out to pillaging missions under army cover.
Note armies can't pillage in this game.
We have nearly no horses currently, act accordingly.
I would really not make any settlers nearterm. The existing ones could make an outpost towards England, preferred with a nice shield of jungle around.
I don't see any need to make many more cities around our new capital, we have already shown that we don't exploit the rank corruption bug ;). But the existing ones should grow. Especially our capital needs an aqueduct next and then should be pumped up by worker merging.
As I stated already above, I think now is the time to grow the cities in our tight core and get to a stable population.
There will be no aqueducts needed in the core, there aren't enough tiles to grow all cities to size 12 (worker merging), even if these stay at 6. Only the coastal cities should get aqueducts soon so they can work coastal tiles for more commerce.
Please look also for opportunities to make galleys. It may even be useful to rush a few in corrupt cities.
I pretty much expect that you will hand over with MT and already 20-30 cavs.
One small thing, I would still like to move Byzantium S-SW for better RCP matchup, even though it has a library already. So making settlers or workers there would be good.
It pretty much looks like we will not need to research at all or only one tech.
I'm now confident that we can reach a pretty early conquest, if we concentrate on this goal. We will pulverise the meager result of Team Smackster.
Edit: But we still have to hurry as much as we can. Team Tao has a score curve very similar to ours. They may be on the same course and even somewhat ahead.

When we get metalurgy don't forget to upgrade the cats to cannons. That will increase their punch and help take out any riflemen we may encounter. This game should have proven decisively that cats (and other artillery) are valuable. I don't think we have enough production to spend our units freely.

The Ai's really like to target empty cities in an invasion. The obsolete legions can serve as garrisons. The coastal cities (and near coastal cities) should be garrisoned with legions and a few knights/cavs held in reserve.

Have fun Alan.

@Klarius - I agree with your general outline to victory. I would just say that the important decision for Alan's turns will be whether to research at max to purchase MT or save to purchase. An approximation of time to research should be about 7 or 8 turns, unless we have excess gold in the treasury. I have been wrong most of the game regarding buy versus research decisions, so I should probably be quiet. :blush: But I think we should do the research if we can get it in less than 8 turns. I don't think it will take much for the AI to convince Japan to join them, although we are giving them 3 lux at the moment, if that holds any sway.

Is there a way for us to tell how much gold an AI Civ will want to ask for a tech? Paying 820 Gold for Chemistry wasn't bad but when I had over 1,000 gold and Japan wouldn't trade Metallurgy, I was a little surprised. It made me wonder how much we would need to purchase MT?

@Klarius - I agree with your general outline to victory. I would just say that the important decision for Alan's turns will be whether to research at max to purchase MT or save to purchase. An approximation of time to research should be about 7 or 8 turns, unless we have excess gold in the treasury. I have been wrong most of the game regarding buy versus research decisions, so I should probably be quiet. :blush: But I think we should do the research if we can get it in less than 8 turns. I don't think it will take much for the AI to convince Japan to join them, although we are giving them 3 lux at the moment, if that holds any sway.

Is there a way for us to tell how much gold an AI Civ will want to ask for a tech? Paying 820 Gold for Chemistry wasn't bad but when I had over 1,000 gold and Japan wouldn't trade Metallurgy, I was a little surprised. It made me wonder how much we would need to purchase MT?
First it will cost us around 1400-1500 gold to research it, I don't expect that they want more than 1100-1300 for it. By the decision to do markets first we are now in the position that buying is still cheaper and luckily we can still buy. I would also buy MT if available Astronomy and even Navigation if we get so far. But first upgrade after MT. After Navigation I would immediately declare to deny them our luxes.
The three luxes are a big deal for the AI. That can really prevent war, because the AI's value happy faces quite a bit.
If all works how I hope, I think I will be able to clean out the bigger part of our continent and already start to set up the invasion of the other.
After my next turnset I don't want to see the game again unless we go down to 5 turns per player. We can get so many cavs that even some rifles will not stop us and if we don't delay we will not see many rifles.

When we get metalurgy don't forget to upgrade the cats to cannons. That will increase their punch and help take out any riflemen we may encounter. This game should have proven decisively that cats (and other artillery) are valuable. I don't think we have enough production to spend our units freely.

The Ai's really like to target empty cities in an invasion. The obsolete legions can serve as garrisons. The coastal cities (and near coastal cities) should be garrisoned with legions and a few knights/cavs held in reserve.

Have fun Alan.
We don't need cannons except to defend our coastline. Combined arms is much to slow. I don't want to raze a city every 5-6 turns. I want to raze 5-6 cities in one turn. That's doable with many cavs.
And sure we will loose many cavs, so what, we will be able to produce them faster than we loose them.

Yes the Ai likes to target empty cities. That's fine, just let them come and kill them. They first have to land and some strategically positioned cavs can take them out. it's much easier to kill an invasion force than units fortified in cities.

GOT IT. I downloaded the save yesterday evening and I've had a look around, read the recent posts, slept on it, and here are my thoughts:

But it looks like the AI really think the Brundisium Bay is the only point to attack. With MT hopefully less than 10 turns away I would have liked to see some of the otherwise useless cats around there. We could redline incoming ships already and if we could get a galley there take them out before they even land.
They go for the Bay because it gets them right into our core. We can attract them more by leaving an empty city there and covering it with just a few units. I agree we may be able to deploy the cats there to give them a bad time. 16 cats disband to 80 shields, and that will buy us a cavalry unit, so I think that's their final destiny.


As I see it in the save, we should be able to buy metal within 2-3 turns. This means MT can be reached in your turnset either by buying or by researching.
Right now we re running at -90 gpt to research it in 5. If we expect to buy it I would rather reduce the rate to -14 gpt and 6 turns, then our gold isn't depleting at the same rate as the price :eek:. We are on borrowed time for trading, with only Japan still on our visiting list. I'm hoping we'll be able to get Metal from them, but it seems a bit of a gamble to rely on buying MT and Astronomy from them as well.

You should look to it that the knights reach cities by then if possible, except a few which are out to pillaging missions under army cover.Agreed - around 20 knights tucked up in front line cities on the turn we complete MT.

We have nearly no horses currently, act accordingly.Iron will be unhooked, and builds refocused as long as I can figure how to avoid wasting shields.
I would really not make any settlers nearterm. The existing ones could make an outpost towards England, preferred with a nice shield of jungle around.
I don't see any need to make many more cities around our new capital, we have already shown that we don't exploit the rank corruption bug ;). But the existing ones should grow. Especially our capital needs an aqueduct next and then should be pumped up by worker merging.
As I stated already above, I think now is the time to grow the cities in our tight core and get to a stable population.Seems reasonable. We have 3 settlers right now and they can provide some forward positions where knights can upgrade ready to :hammer: the English and Babylon. The English cities are too big for our knights right now so they have to wait for cavalry. What about Tours and the smaller Babs towns? We have over 30 cities to destroy on our home continent currently. If we can reduce that number a bit you stand a better chance of clearing the continent in ten. We need to achieve that if we are to conquer in 50 total.

Please look also for opportunities to make galleys. It may even be useful to rush a few in corrupt cities.Well, there are two or three libraries that can be converted to galleys right now. I'll work on that. We need galleys on our west coast, right?
I pretty much expect that you will hand over with MT and already 20-30 cavs.Bob the Builder for ten turns then.


One small thing, I would still like to move Byzantium S-SW for better RCP matchup, even though it has a library already. So making settlers or workers there would be good.
It pretty much looks like we will not need to research at all or only one tech.I hope you're right about Japan staying peaceful for the rest of our lux deal.

I'm now confident that we can reach a pretty early conquest, if we concentrate on this goal. We will pulverise the meager result of Team Smackster.
Edit: But we still have to hurry as much as we can. Team Tao has a score curve very similar to ours. They may be on the same course and even somewhat ahead.I agree. We focus totally on Conquest in 50 turns max.

First it will cost us around 1400-1500 gold to research it, I don't expect that they want more than 1100-1300 for it. By the decision to do markets first we are now in the position that buying is still cheaper and luckily we can still buy.Our current position is neutral. The gross income is the same within 2gpt whether we research at 100% or 0%. On that basis I would say we should trade for techs as long as possible, as the price is usually less than the research cost. Right now it will cost us 1200 to research metallurgy in at least 5 turns. We can't get it for 1000, but if we turn off research we'll make 191gpt and have 1200 in the bank next turn and we can probably buy it then. Do we think our lack of bargaining ability means we have to pay more than the actual research cost?

I think it is still a little bit cheaper to buy, than to research now. So I would put the slider to 0 and expect to buy next turn. You will probably also be able to buy next turn, if you keep the slider at 100.
The not haggling does hurt us some, our bad reputation also.
That combines probably to 5-15% more cost depending, if we get a deal when we just can afford it. On the other hand the AI's seem to give some discount sometimes, if you're the only one they can make a deal currently.
Still there is the 25% emperor malus on our own research. We have by far not enough libraries in the right towns to offset this.

Another point for still buying is flexibility. If we have gold and out of the blue we cannot trade anymore we don't loose much time. We can then run 100% science, probably getting to 4-6 turns per tech. But we can also use our gold for upgrades if necessary.

Warmongering:

Yes as I already suggested to Leif, soft targets like Tours, and some Bab cities would be fine. I would also like to remove the access to saltpeter to English and Babs ASAP. If this would have to be done by just pillaging or taking out towns, can be decided flexible.
Taking out Babs completely would also have been good, but it's too late to do that with knights.
Note they are quite a bit back in technology. By that they increase the research/trade price of metal and MT.

There are also still these cities on the middle continent. Especially the german ones. We haven't hurt Germany much and it will take some time till we work to them even with cavs. As a scientific civ they can show up with rifles any time. Right now I expect that on the middle continent there are only spears maybe a pike from an original escort and they will rush LBs. Some legions could do a lot there, though it's quite a long way.

Also another point for the middle continent. Be careful with barbs, many people forget that there is massive uprising at every change of ages. So if two civs will get into industrial (hopefully not in your turnset). There will be tons of barb horses swarming. With a little bit bad RNG luck 20 BH can still take out 2 strong defenders.

EDIT:
I'm having second (third,fourth... ;) )thoughts about tech trading. I thought up to know to trade for Astronomy and Navigation (if possible) after MT and initial upgrades. These both should be quite cheap then. I'm wondering if we should invest in physics and magnetism if this should come up. We will want to ferry over hundreds of units to the other continent, so magnetism could help. On the other side the investment will be in the order of 3000g or more. That's 60 upgrades horse->cav and if we play it right we will be able to make horses like crazy.
I tend to go only up to navigation first and only when we see that our transport capacity is not enough to ferry over the 100 or so cavs waiting, look if it is still possible.
And I'm not joking, if I talk about 100 cavs waiting, these are the orders of magnitude I like to see in our empire.

I've uploaded the save for the end of turn 950AD. I'll post my full turnlog in the morning, but here's a situation report:

We have bought metallurgy and MT. We have 26 cavalry, 8 knights, and 13 horses and counting (our iron and saltpeter roads were damaged in a freak accident :mischief: ). Workers are moving to reconnect them when it's deemed safe enough by the next better player.

We are generating nearly 300 gpt with a lone scientist. We have enough cash this turn to buy Astronomy, and we have 14 galleys and counting.

I produced two leaders. One built a cavalry army, the other arrived this turn, and is standing by in Mediolanum.

England's cities are not the power houses they once were since all our pillaging, and I haven't seen any English cavalry for a couple of turns now that their horses are turned loose.

We have some larger cities now, and WLTKD has finished in some of them, but the gems are about to be reconnected and that should improve the mood.

Newton's Uni is being built in Azteca and India, but I've seen no sign of a major barb uprising yet. They are quite active though, and I spotted a 1/2/2 beastie called Grahamiam. The French have landed a Longbow next to our northern city on the mi-ocean ridge, there are a few German knights lurking in the north, a couple of settlers are about to find out what happens to aliens in our territory, and the Aztecs are just sailing into Brindisium Bay. I'm afraid I didn't do much damage to the AI cities in my turns. I just took out one new Russian city the turn after it was founded, which seems to be the best approach to settlers to ensure they suffer maximum war weariness. The RNG didn't look favourably on my one attempt to take down Ashur, and I decided to wait for cavalry.

Oh, and you wouldn't recongnise our palace now - front door, steps, second floor and an east wing!

It's all yours Klarius. Do your worst :ninja:

the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Xteam_SG003_AD0950_01.SAV)

I'll post my full turnlog in the morning
Sounds like we are really moving forward now. :goodjob: I look forward to a little light morning reading. :coffee: If you bought MT, then we must still have a firend somewhere?? :rolleyes: Can't wait to have a look.
It's all yours Klarius. Do your worst :ninja:
Good luck Klarius!! I am dying to see how many cities you can take in 10 turns. I am looking forward to learning about this fast conquest method!! :D

I've uploaded the save for the end of turn 950AD. I'll post my full turnlog in the morning, but here's a situation report:

We have bought metallurgy and MT. We have 26 cavalry, 8 knights, and 13 horses and counting (our iron and saltpeter roads were damaged in a freak accident :mischief: ).

Accidents happen. ;)
But Bob the Builder did a top notch job. :goodjob:


We are generating nearly 300 gpt with a lone scientist. We have enough cash this turn to buy Astronomy, and we have 14 galleys and counting.

Brilliant. [dance]
Some more work for me, to plan the first foothold in aztecland.
I see it coming this turnset will take me very long. :cry: :D


England's cities are not the power houses they once were since all our pillaging, and I haven't seen any English cavalry for a couple of turns now that their horses are turned loose.

Well, I think you could have probably have taken out England by the end of your turnset using the first cavs, if you wanted.
So you rather decided to give the task to destroy your home country to a German.
But I will look to it that I not only destroy England, but will already try to take out some Germans also.



We have some larger cities now, and WLTKD has finished in some of them, but the gems are about to be reconnected and that should improve the mood.

WLTKD is not so important, but :goodjob:.
We are at war, our laborers shall work not celebrate. ;)
They will have enough time to cheer, when we removed every steenkin' alien from this map.


It's all yours Klarius. Do your worst :ninja:


Now the real fun can begin. :band:

I have today all day to play. I will probably start in a few hours. At this stage I expect that the turns will already take very long (up to an hour for a slowpoke like me). I'm now downloading the save and will start to ponder, which cities to raze first and already look for good places for invading the other continent.

Turn 200 850 AD Preflight
Check production:
Some libraries, and long haul markets and harbours redirected to units.
Note that Babs city of Eridu is not visible, so there are probably more cities on the mid-ocean ridge under the fog.
Note that Copernicus and Magellan are under construction.
Move settler and knight from galley into Sirmium.
Slider to 10.0.0 and MM for 200 gpt. There's already a scientist in a corrupt outer city to keep the science pot boiling.

IBT
Cavalry out of london kills a knight
Barb horse attacks Sirmium legion and dies.
Gem City, Caesaraugustus worker -> worker
Veii, Lugdonum knight -> knight
Neapolis, Ravenna, Hippo Regius galley -> galley
Aztecs start Newton's Uni - they have ToG.

Turn 201 860 AD
Cats from Gem City bomb Babs LB to 2/4 and 5/5 legion kills him -> 4/5
Japan wants 1120+WM for Metallurgy. That's pretty much exactly what it would cost to research it. You have a deal my friend.
He has Mil Trad but won't sell. Our sliders say it would cost 1400-ish to research. That's 7 turns at our current rate. We'll continue to gamble that he'll keep the peace.

Switch Byzantium to settler to move it S/SE, waste 10 shields.
Land worker @Corfinium to road the horses and change its build to Barracks - we can build horses there.
@Sirmium 5/5 legion kills barb -> 4/5. I decide to join the settler to Sirmium to boost production.
Sliders 10.0.0 for 212gpt.

IBT
American knight and English cav both die vs our legion.
2 German knights and a Babs knight appearnear Gem City.
Barb warrior dies at Sirmium.Hispalis courthouse->market
Byzantium settler->worker
Brundisium market->knight
Gonzomonium knight->knight
Neocaledonium harbour->worker

Turn 202 870 AD
Join worker to Arretium
Join worker to Brundisium
Move our two warriors towards the east coast. We'll upgrade them tehre and ship them over to the mid-ocean range to provide some backup in cas eo barb uprisings.
Try attacking Ashur (Babs). It's the softest target, as it's on flat landand below pop 6. We have three knights in range. One retreats leaving the musket down to 2/3. Second kills musket with no damage. Final 5/5 knight redlines 3/3 spear and dies :(

IBT
American knight kills our undamaged knight at Ashur :(
Americal settelr pair appears
More knights advance
Aztecs land jag warrior and settler
Babs offers something called 'peace'. Sorry, sunshine, it's not in our dictionary.
Babs knight attacks and dies.
English cavs kill two knights!
Barbs advance on Sirmium
Jerusalem galley->galley
Cumae, Pompeii, Lutetia knight->knight

Turn 203 880 AD
Knight kills Aztec jag warrior, settler builds Augustadorum on his grave and the 2 workers are disbanded to provide 4 shields toward its galley.
LB kills English cav.
Join 2 workers to Cumae
Hurry worker in Byzantium (24 gold)
Settler from Byzantium builds Trapezius on the new site S/SW of Byzantium.
4/4 Knight dies, redlines German knight on open ground
5/5 legion @Sirmium kills barb warrior
4/4 knight dies, redlines Babs LB on open ground
5/5 knight dies vs 3/3 German knight on open ground ->3/4
The RNG was having a bad hair day!

We have 524 gold. Japan says it's not enough.

IBT
American knights kill knight and LB - the RNG's mood lives on :(
Ghandi wants peace. Nope!
German knights continue south
English cav dies, redlines our legion
2 barb horses die at Sirmium
Sirmium barracks->galley
Byzantium worker->worker

Turn 204 890 AD
Pillage England's second horse - no more cavs, Liz :D
Build Bagacum on spices river under the nose of a Russian settler pair.
Move 2 warriors to Jersalem and upgrade (40 gold)
5/5 legion takes barb camp for 25 gold
4/4 legion kills barb horse near Sirmium
4/4 knight kills German 3/3 knight - the RNG relents!
4/4 knight dies vs German 4/4 knight -> 2/4 - no it doesn't!
757 gold is still not enough for Japan to sell MT

IBT
American knight kills knight in jungle->2/4
2 English cavs atack knight. One dies the other kills
Barb horse dies at Sirmium
Neapolis, Pisae, Nicomedia knight->knight
Corfinium barracks->horse
Palace gets three belated upgrades - front door, steps and 2nd floor.

Turn 205 900 AD
1013 gold is still not enough for MT
Join worker to Rome, join a couple more to other cities.
Legion kills barb warrior @Sirmium

IBT
American knightdies attacking 2/4 legion in jungle
Various other AI movements
Rome knight -> knight
Antium Aqueduct->knight
Revenna galley->galley

Turn 206 910 AD
1299 gold is *still* not enough. We must be getting close!
5/5 knight kills German 2/4 knight -> 3/5
4/4 knight dies, redlines German 2/4 knight
Spot a barb called Grahamiam - a 1.2.2 unit

IBT
German knight dies, redlines 2/4 knight
German knights advance
Grahamiam attacks 3/5 legion and dies
Verona, Tyrus galley->galley
Virconium, Plmyra knight->knight
Artaxa aqueduct->galley

Turn 207 920 AD
NOW we can buy Mil Trad. for 1320+WM. It's a deal! We were only 21 short last turn.
Astronomy will cost about 850 gold to research. We'll stick to zero research and aim to buy it from Japan. We can upgrade 26 knights out of 34 at 10 gold each now. Then three more turns should get us enough cash to buy Astronomy.
5/5 knight kills Babs LB ->4/5 and A LEADER, Hadrian arises. Moves to Mediolanum.
2 cats redline Babs LB outside Gem Cityand legion kills him. Cats are left exposed while all our front line knights plus others upgrade.

IBT
Iroquois want peace. Nope!
Aztec caravel captain drinks too much Dutch courage and attacks our galley. Sinks with all hands and promotes our galley
German knights attack and kill two cavalry and capture our 2 cats. What? :eek:
English cavalry dies attacking Bagacum
We are asked if we'd like to build a Mil Academy
Byzantium worker->worker
Lunacatorium aqueduct->cavalry
Indians are building Smiths and Newton's Uni
Russian settler seen earlier builds Yakutsk next to Mediolanum

Turn 208 930 AD
Cav kills German knight and recovers our cats
Cav kills English LB. 3/4
Cav kills Berman 3/5 knight, 3/4
Cav kills German 1/4 knight promotes to 3/5

@Yakutsk:
Cav dies, redlines Russian 3/3 musket
Cav kills 1/3 musket, razes Yakutsk
Hadrian builds a Cavalry army in Mediolanum
Troops at home go berserk and pillage our two iron and one saltpeter sources. Renegotiate longer term Cavalry builds to horses, with some loss of shields. Move workers towards the salt and iron tiles ready to repair the damage.

IBT
German knight dies on cavalry on mountain
Russian knight dies on legion
Rome, Londinium, Seleucia, Antium, Nicodemia, Pisae, Tarentum, Ludgonum, Eburacum, Agrippina produce horses, start more horses.
Veii cav->horse
Jerusalem, Nicopolis, Hippo Regius galleys->galley
Caesarea worker->worker

Turn 209 940 AD
Cavalry kill assorted AI troops ib Babs/England/no man's land.

IBT
French LB lands near Corfinium
Barbs die vs legion->2/5
English musket pillages spices near Bagacum
Sirmium, Artaxata galley->galley
Cumae, Pompeii, Syracuse cavalry->horse
Viroconium, Palmyra horse->horse
Caesaraugusta worker->worker

Turn 210 950 AD
5/5 cavalry kills English pike intent on pillaging more spices, and another LEADER is born. Maximus is set to Mediolanum to await the pleasure of the next better player.
4/4 cavalry attacks pillager misket and dies
4/4 cavalry kills pillager musket.

After action report
I left some units to move and haven't MM'd the cores yet. Maximus awaits in Mediolanum. He could build another army or the Military Academy. We *could* hold on to him for Magellan, but I think there's a good chance we'll get another with the upcoming unpleasantness. Perhaps a legion army to help to destroy towns locally or on the cetral continent while the main cavalry force goes further afield. Our cavalry spent two turns mopping up a lot of invading knights - mainly Germans, and have not got their act together yet for a concerted attack on England and Babs.

We have 13 horses, and we are producing lots more. There are also a few cavalry due to complete in the next turn or two. A gang of 6 workers will convene on the saltpeter in two turns time so it can be reconnected any time after that.

We have enough gold to buy Astronomy now, and we are earning up to 300 gpt, allowing 6 horse upgrades per turn. I think we'll also need Navigation to get to the other continent, with Magellan if possible to speed it up. There are several galleys heading down the east coast and round the south coast towards Ravenna as a rallying point for the western invasion force. We need to keep a couple on the east coast to ferry troops over to mop up the central continent.

Watch for an Aztec caravel about to enter Brindisium Bay - there are a couple of cats in the area, but it's a 2 defence so I doubt if we should attack it even if we are lucky enough to redline it. And there's a French LB next to Corfinium, You can either attack him with the army there, or let him impale himself on it. A barb uprising can't be far off now. ToG has been around for 10 turns.

There are still a few knights around Gem City, but I've cleaned up most of the attackers so it may now be possible to focus on taking down Babs and England. Pillaging has reduced the English cities below 6 now, so they'll be easier to deal with.

Byzantium is in the final stages of pop reduction and can be asset stripped and abandoned soon. Trapezium, its replacement, is already built.

Good luck, Klarius.

Roster with dates:

40 more turns if we want to claim a place in SGOTM history - one more set each, if you play your cards right:

950 AD-1050 AD Klarius UP
1050 AD-1150 AD AdrianE On deck
1150 AD-1250 AD Capt Buttkick
1250 AD-1300 AD leif erikson - target the final coups de grace

1300 AD-1350 AD AlanH - hope I don't need to

@Klarius: I mentioned WLTKD because it can give you an exra gold piece or two and an extra shield in the marginal corruption constituencies. I'm not sure whether it's worth holding population down to maintain it, though.

A small interturn report:

I already started around noon and am only on turn 6. I need more than an hour per turn. We should probably go down to five turns per player after me. Today is ok, but on other days I could not invest 10-12 hours.
War is still going quite slow but accelerating. Have razed 12 cities up to now.
Massive uprising on the first turn, but we are over it. I have Astronomy (self researched), but need now some more upgrade money. Also the galleys haven't reached my planned start point for the invasion of Aztekia yet. It will be up to the next leader for that.
Leaders are no problem I had already three. We have Pentagon, Mil. Akad. and some new armies.
I will now go back and raze some more cities :D , maybe I manage my goal of 5-6 per turn this or the next turn.

@Alan
I know the effect of WLTKD. I don't think it's worth any extra effort. I grow every city which has still a tile to work. So our capital is currently at size 11, not cheering, but producing 15 sh, 27g even so one is wasted of each.

I was finding most turns were taking an hour each as well, and I was only actively defending. A lot of it is handling all the city MM, plus the number of units and workers we have now. Everything seems to need a lot of thought :hmm: If everyone is happy to do so we can run to this revised schedule:

950 AD-1050 AD Klarius UP
1050 AD-1100 AD AdrianE On deck
1100 AD-1150 AD Capt Buttkick
1150 AD-1200 AD leif erikson
1200 AD-1250 AD AlanH
1250 AD-1275 AD Klarius to wrap it up

I'm happy with this option as it means I get to play with the cavs and ships again :D

Also the galleys haven't reached my planned start point for the invasion of Aztekia yet.
Am I right in thinking we need Navigation or Magnetism to reach them?

I have no problem with changing to a 5 turn rotation. It took me 2 long nights to get it to you Alan. :sleep:

Keep up the good work Klarius. :goodjob:

The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Xteam_SG003_AD1050_01.SAV)


Summary:
Razed 26 cities (a little bit low, but it's difficult landscape up in the north and some roads were missing in England ;) ).
Removed English, Babs and French. Cleaned out the middle continent.
Set up an initial invasion force for Aztecs.
Magellan's will complete IBT.
We have currently 58 cavs, 29 horses, 19 Caravel, 6 Armies and some assorted other.
The old FP core is nearly at stable population and very productive.

Log:
Preflight:
Coffee: check.
Mapstat running: check.
Notepad: check.

Check the trade situation. Astronomy is about the same price it would be to research. I don't need it right away so decide to wait a turn or two and look if I can get a special offer.
But I do buy the world map for a steep 90g + WM. Seems nobody has bought a map in long time and I want to know how everybody is doing.
Take off a worker from an unimportant mining. He will build a saltpeter colony next turn, so we can mine our core saltpeter and keep it mined.
If somebody thinks we urgently need iron, we should use a similar solution and never again road the irons in our core but mine them (please, even if you don't like disconnecting let others the chance).

Change build in Brundisium, Syracuse, Jerusalem and Hippo Regius to aqueduct. These are potential commercial powerhorses and shall grow big.

Do some MM in our core, we can afford more population in several cities, I will look to merge some workers where possible.

Shuffle around some units. All of a sudden see some knight. Have to put a horse as bait, so he doesn't get a cav.

No road into England. Will take a few more turns to take out Liz. But no big hurry. She's already as good as dead.

Alan has left me some PIAs around Gem City. Decide to defend first and hope the best. Don't like to start with impaling cavs on knights on mountains.

The leader hurries the Pentagon. Will generate a little culture and for unit cav armies may be useful on the other continent. On our continent we should only make two unit armies now, to be able to transport them over. I will look to get one for the initial foothold.

Finally hit return (after about 1 hour).

IBT:
A killer knight redlined(2/12) the cav army in Gem City. Then a second knight killed a cav.
There is still a cav around in England, but it didn't find a target.
Massive uprising message: Ghandi, Toku and Monty are industrial.
Monty lands 2 cav and a Jag.
My bait horse defends succesfully agains a knight.

Turn 1:
Doesn't start well, loose a cav and a legion on the aztec invasion force. Finish off with horses.
Upgrade 10 horses and further delay buying astro.
Kill everything around Gem City w/o further losses.
Try to setup a little but will take some more time, to get everything in position.
Prepare for barbs on middle continent.

IBT: An unsuccesfull knight attack. Some units move and tons of barb horses.

Turn 2:
Upgrade another 6 horses.
Sell saltpeter for 16 gpt to Toku. We can use another source, or maybe declare if necessary.
Decide to do self research for astronomy. No need to fuel Toku further. I may buy navi later, but for now I research.
MM our core cities to 10 or 15 sh for speedy horse production.

First small attack on London. Two cavs retreated. More are coming.
Liz is now also industrial.

Raze Tours loosing one cav. Generate a GL. Gem City -> Cav Army(1).
Attack a redlined musket with a legion. Another GL. Will need a turn to get somewhere.

Some more unit shuffling and pump up our capital to size 9.

IBT:
Monty lands a knight near Corfinium. Loose an elite legion in a mountain to barb horses. Damn RNG. Many barb horses coming.
Did forget to cover some cats near Gem. Will take the cats back next turn. No further attacks.

Turn 3:
Otto is industrial. Well sh.. happens. I will need lots of cavs for him.

Leader hurries Military academy. Not that we really need it, but it also gives one culture and maybe late in the game we want to hurry an army.

Raze London, loosing one cav.

Take back the cats near Gem and kill the offending bowman.

Raze Niniveh, again loosing one cav.
Kill a few settler pairs. I don't like to watch them till they finally settle,
Killed Monty's knight.
Around 10 barb horses will attack next turn. Hopefully some better RNG.

IBT:
11 barb horses attack Sirmium. One is a killer, it kills a 4 HP legion. The others do minor damage. Next attack will be 18 horses.

Turn 4:
Sell our only Gems for 9 gpt. Will get another source next turn.
Raze Tbilisi on middle continent with a legion.
I had blocked the caravel of Monty's last sneak in Brundisium bay. Now finally two cats manage to redline it and a galley takes it out.
Finally road into England completes. I can get the cavs back for healing and reinforcements will get through faster.
Raze Babylon. No losses.
Shuffle units.

IBT:
18 BH + 1 BW impale themselves on the legions and the knight in Sirmium. No losses but everything redlined. No other fights.
We learn astronomy by self research. I go minimum on Nav now I will need some money and have given up the idea of already attcking Monty in my turnset. I will just set up the invasion force.

Turn 5:
Do some Caravel upgrades.
Sell some not any more needed granaries.
I settle Byzantium for another gems and another easy to access salt.
Raze Ur. No losses
Raze a German city (I forgot the name, these german names are so complicated) on the middle continent. Only two spears defending.
Raze Babylonian Smolensk.

IBT:
The Barbs have died out to a trickle of two horses.
Lost two yellow cavs to german cavs. They will die next turn.
A few more movements nothing serious.
England lands a cav next to corfinum. That will also not help Liz

Turn 6:
Raze Minsk. Anthony generated. Makes an army.
Raze new founded Hannover.
Raze Coventry.
Raze Ashur.
Raze Stuttgart (well I'm frequently in Stuttgart maybe have to go somewhere else), last german town on middle continent.
Raze Ellipi on middle continent.
Kill english cav near Corfinum.

IBT:
Again loose two yellow cavs to german cavs. This has to stop. I have either to be more careful or kill Otto.
A few movements, nothing serious.

Turn 7:
Buy navigation for 520g + WM.
Raze Munich. Tough one two rifles on hill. Loose two cavs.
Raze Oxford, loose one.
Raze York, again one to a killer spear.
Raze Canterbury, no losses.
Raze Ellipi on middle continent.

IBT:
Liz gets desperate (and she has reason) a Caravel attacks one of ours and sinks. Otherwise only movements, no attacks.

Turn 8:

I raze Warwick, Liz is gone. Two cavs lost.
I had brought a worker, so we have now a furs colony.
Razed Sverdlowsk and Eridu on middle continent. It's slowly getting lonesome here.
Nothing more. I'm running a little short of healty cavs and England is thoroughly pillaged around Warwick, so the cavs can't move fast. I'm also holding back forces for the Invasion fleet.

IBT:
Again a german cav gets one healing. A few barbs move. A few galleys move.

Turn 9:
Salt is reconnected will do some upgrades.
Raze Akkad on middle continent. Goodbye Hammi.
Fail to get Avignon, but that will be corrected either next turn or by the next driver.
Kill a settler pair. Get Octavian, gets on his way to rush Magellan if possible.
Raze american Sevastopol.

IBT:
Loose two wounded cavs.
Monty lands a cav and two jags near Corfinum. Have not enough forces to attack.

Turn 10:
Raze Avignon. Byebye Joan. Middle continent is free of alien towns currently.
Raze Heidelberg. No losses.
Hurry Magellans.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/x_1050_1.jpg
Some points to land an invasion. The invasion force includes a settler. One should land all units, settle and immediately raze nearby cities. Then pillage roads outside of city boundaries and go to active defense for some turns. When reinforcements arrive in large enough numbers, build SoDs and roll over everything. In the north of our continent are quite a few cavs. That's enough for now, just look to it to not loose too many in the open. The challenge is to get enough forces to the other continent to finish quickly.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/x_1050_2.jpg
Under the horse are workers reconnecting the saltpeter. The horse is there for disconnecting. Please don't connect other salt, even though you don't like the disconnect trick.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/x_1050_3.jpg
As a special service to Adrian: Under the legion is a worker. Build a colony on the iron and you can upgrade cats to cannons.
I see no reason to do so, they will never be able to hold the pace of the cavs, but I kept some around. The colony can easily be disconnected w/o abandoning it.

I left a small problem ;) around Corfinium. Better don't attack, before you hit enter. If the RNG is unfriendly and we loose the city, that's how it is. Just counter in the following turns.

Excellent progress, Klarius. Sorry about the roads around Warwick, but I wanted to cut down their food sources, and I thought you'd have the same difficulty whether the roads around the city were there or not, given the cultural borders.

I know it's silly, but I always feel a sense of real progress when you can get all the remaining civs on a single F4 screen with no overflow.

One question: Why are the workers on the salt road taking 2 turns to build it? I would expect 6 workers to take one turn to complete a road on a hill :confused:

Just to give ourselves a target to go for:

We should work on the assumption that we can afford only another 20 turns to finish this conquest.

The home civs can be wiped out as a background exercise - one city per turn would do it, and most of them are pop 6 or less, so a small force can deal wth this action - note the need to ship some units to Germany's northern island and to remove America and any other newcomers from the central landmass.

There are 60 cities on the other continent, most of which are over pop 6, and we need to delete three of these per turn on average. Since we shall probably start slower than that it means we can expect a major slugfest towards the end. We could easily lose two or three cavs per razed city, hence Klarius' estimate of over 100 cavs needed to finish this job. I'd say maybe 150-200, and we have 60 cav + 27 horses now. We have to build a lot of cavalry, and the best way to achieve that is by building a hundred horses and upgrading them. Also note that we only need to have one unit standing when the last AI city is razed :D

Here's the revised roster assuming we go for 5 turns each:

1050 AD-1100 AD [b]AdrianE UP
1100 AD-1150 AD Capt Buttkick On deck
1150 AD-1200 AD leif erikson
1200 AD-1250 AD AlanH
1250 AD-1275 AD Klarius hopefully to wrap it up, or ...
1275 AD-1300 AD AdrianE

Note that there's no problem with uploading saves at any dates we choose.

One question: Why are the workers on the salt road taking 2 turns to build it? I would expect 6 workers to take one turn to complete a road on a hill :confused:

One of the workers is delayed. He is not working now. But he will be ready to complete the road immediately during the next turn. I had initially only 5 available.


Just to give ourselves a target to go for:

We should work on the assumption that we can afford only another 20 turns to finish this conquest. [BTW Note that we have to declare on Japan in 1220 AD / Turn #237 - 17 turns]

The home civs can be wiped out as a background exercise - one city per turn would do it, and most of them are pop 6 or less, so a small force can deal wth this action - note the need to ship some units to Germany's northern island and to remove America and any other newcomers from the central landmass.

There are 60 cities on the other continent, most of which are over pop 6, and we need to delete three of these per turn on average. Since we shall probably start slower than that it means we can expect a major slugfest towards the end. We could easily lose two or three cavs per razed city, hence Klarius' estimate of over 100 cavs needed to finish this job. I'd say maybe 150-200, and we have 60 cav + 27 horses now. We have to build a lot of cavalry, and the best way to achieve that is by building a hundred horses and upgrading them. Also note that we only need to have one unit standing when the last AI city is razed :D

I agree. :cool:.

And note, if we should get a little bit delayed we will still at least beat Team Smackster with their initial luck.
They finished with domination. Conquest is 22 turns better.
Still I could imagine that Tao is on the same course as we are. The score curves are similar, they will also have stopped expansion in favour of military.
If I think thoroughly there could also be some team with a really sneaky approach. That would be go for 20k. Score curve looking like they have problems, but they are content with a small core and leader fishing. As I see now in our example that could work, tech trading was by far not as difficult as I thought initially.

Note I didn't speak of 100 cavs needed, but 100 cavs waiting for transport when I did consider to go for Magnetism. That already assumed that there are already many cavs on the other continent.
We have now Magellan's that's already an improvement. But we probably should anyways build more ships. It's frequently a problem that transport capacity is lacking, if you upgrade like crazy.

There are already two Caravels heading for Germany, to pick up some cavs for the island.

Edit:
One more note. Buy Toku's map as long as we can.
Every turn.
He trades maps with the others and we also learn about barb camps. Note that in the now empty territories there will be more and more barbs. I neglected patroling there a bit, because I was busy setting up the invasion.

I have it

It will probably be Tuesday night when I play.

Adrian

Just had a good look at the save, nice work Klarius!! :goodjob: :clap:

The terrain in parts of India and Japan is going to tough to move fast on. That also seems to go for American and German northern territory as well. Perhaps, once we have our main force in Azteca, we could spare a few Caravels or Galleons (if we have them) to head up to the western side of the Indian coast to assist in transporting Cavs to target cities. It might speed things up to go by sea rather than slogging along through the mountains, forests and jungles.

With all that open space where certain nations used to be, it looks like Barbs will have a field day. Also saw a Russian Galley about, delivering settlers?? Looks like we will need some roving patrols of Cav. ;)

There is still much to do, good luck Adrian!! :thumbsup: :hammer: :banana:

The terrain in parts of India and Japan is going to tough to move fast on. That also seems to go for American and German northern territory as well. Perhaps, once we have our main force in Azteca, we could spare a few Caravels or Galleons (if we have them) to head up to the western side of the Indian coast to assist in transporting Cavs to target cities. It might speed things up to go by sea rather than slogging along through the mountains, forests and jungles.

American and German territory is no problem. We have ample time to take them out and it also isn't that rough. Cavs can still make good progress.
For some of Japan it may really be beneficial to use ships. But note with the loading and unloading this also takes quite some time. And the real rough territory on the western coast cannot be reached by ship.


With all that open space where certain nations used to be, it looks like Barbs will have a field day. Also saw a Russian Galley about, delivering settlers?? Looks like we will need some roving patrols of Cav. ;)

If we should continue to build horses for upgrade, the patrols should be horses. We will not have enough money to upgrade all and horses are good enough for barbs.
And note: two camps = 50g = another cav upgrade :D .
And BTW cavs have no business in towns except healing.

A few more remarks to general strategy (it always takes me some time after playing to really sort out my thoughts).

With Magellan's coming online, we should have enough transport capacity. A roundtrip for a caravel should only be 4 turns now.
We have 16 caravels in the region. That would give 48 passengers in 4 turns, or 12/turn. With a combined production of horses for upgrade and cavs, we may get to about 10 cavs per turn production.
Conclusion: definitely no nead for magnetism.
We should sell all libraries, except maybe some, which can still lead to a culture expansion. We can even take off the single scientist and make him a taxman.

And also economy. Even if we would get Smith's next turn, there wouldn't be enough turns left that it pays the price. And we need money now more urgent than in 10 turns.

Another note on invasion strategy:
I chose the points I denoted, because these will allow to have a town with only 3-4 tiles culture boundary overlap, when razing the nearby towns. Culture flip can then be prevented by a garrison of about 15.
First build should be a barracks. Disband a redlined cav to build it immediately.
A culture building doesn't help at all. Only boundary expansion would help and by the time we would get it, we will have razed the next few cities also.
So after rax one can go for a harbor, but that's not really urgent.
I brought already two armies. More are not needed and also not useful before we have many more units there. Three single cavs are stronger than a cav army, due to the healing issue with armies.
So I would use leaders on the new continent to hurry a cav.

So what I would like Adrian to do is:
Establish the Aztec beachhead. This will result in big losses, but the longer we wait the bigger the losses. Look what else you can do there. Reinforce our invasion as much as possible.

Continue progress in the north with the units already there. One or two towns per turn can be done with small stacks. Only the capitals should need some more effort.

The middle continent should be fine with the few units already there.

I see no reason to settle any more towns now (maybe later on the other continent). But there are enough corrupt cities to hurry a settler, when needed. That would also be a good use for cats to disband.

Good luck !

save uploaded

Summary:

Klarius - please wake up all the units - it is a real pain to have to search every city to find our army.

Some progress but it is slowing down. The forces left on our continent up north are inadequate. They also need some forward cities to quickly heal units. I have some settlers out there to fix that. Riflemen are more abundant. I have been upgrading 5 or 6 horses per turn.

1050AD IBT - lose 2 cav near New York, Aztecs take Corfinium, lose unguarded worker to barbs

1060AD scramble to save our middle continent position, kill Aztec cav
organize Roman holiday in Azteca
lose 2 cav near Hamburg
IBT Indians land elephants on middle continent

1070AD raze Hamburg, New York, kill Indian elephants - get 135G from Hamburg - Germany is rich!

1080AD retake Corfinium

1090AD land in Azteca, fail to take Berlin - lose a Cav Army to RNG
IBT Germany buys Japan in against us - no more trading

1100AD raze some unpronounceable Aztec city, costs us about 6 cav! , found Lauriacum, rush a barracks

We are getting into a slugfest. All the AI's have riflemen now.

Ouch! Sounds like a painful set of turns, Adrian. But we have a beach head, and we are on our way. Well held.

Note that in F3 you can hover over a unit in the unit listing - eg an army - to see its location on the minimap and click it to center its location on the main map.

1100 AD-1150 AD Capt Buttkick UP
1150 AD-1200 AD leif erikson On deck
1200 AD-1250 AD AlanH
1250 AD-1275 AD Klarius
1275 AD-1300 AD AdrianE

Well, I try again to make a strategical post.

Where we need our forces is on the other continent, not the north, not the middle continent, not sitting around in our core cities. And we need more. Money is not to be used for anything else than upgrading horses, or maybe for another few caravels, now that we have the longer support line for some time.

Tzintzuntzen and Teayo have to go ASAP, even at high cost.
After that and killing everything coming, I think Monty will already be in very bad condition wrt to happiness. He is in democracy and will need tons of clowns. The capital should be attacked only later. Other towns will be easier (still not easy).

Don't attack Berlin, this has time. It's a capital on a hill, this is an extremely hard nut. Other German cities will be easier and can be taken by 3-4 cavs. Especially now that Otto is already hurting big time and his cities are shrinking.

Abe and Cathy still don't have rifles, their cities can be taken by 2-3 cavs.

We need every gold piece we can get. Sell the libraries and temples in every town with over 100 culture. And get rid of the cats. If you're in the mood, do some MM towards commerce. Several corrupt cities could support taxmen. Some coastal towns could use more coastal tiles, only giving up shields, which would be wasted anyway.
I don't see need for many tile improvement, especially not for corrupt cities, or cities which don't have the food to support more laborers. But there are still cities which could profit from another worker merged in.

We don't need more cities on our continent except in strategical locations. No use for fill-ins. But we will need a few settlers on the other continent. I recommend to pull back the settlers to be shipped over, except maybe one for another forward post towards Germany.

We will need more horses soon, so pillaging iron and salt and setting up again for speedy reconnect, should be done within the next 2-3 turns.

We are getting into a slugfest. All the AI's have riflemen now.
Did we really expect anything less? :hammer: To come to this [party] requires a flak jacket and a big weapon!!

Good job getting us established in Azteca :goodjob: Bad RNG fortune around Berlin, oh well, the streak continues!! :shakehead

@Klarius - I agree with your strategic outline. There is much to do in a short time. Disconnecting the saltpeter and building horsies, is the goal for about 6 turns or a certain number of horsies? We have loads of caravels returning to our coast and not much to fill them with. I think I saw 21 horsies available so we should round up as many as we can, upgrade them, once we have some gold, and send them to Azteca ASAP?

Good luck Capt. Get that RNG of yours cranking. Can you export that things to me??? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

edit - @Klarius - I noticed that Washington is on a hill as well. Should we go after it before they get Rifles? Most of the other cities seem to be on pastures or tundra, shouldn't be a big problem.

We have enough horses for 2-3 turns to upgrade. I want the irons disconnected and the saltpeter setup again, so that one can disconnect and connect within the same turn.
Because the saltpeter in the North near Byzantium is in insecure territory (it would be easier to connect), I think we should go again for the saltpeter colony in the midth of our territory.
This needs six workers for a road in hills, like I had it set up.
The best sequence is:
Disconnect at the end of the turn.
In the interturn you can select horses for build.
Let all six workers build road, it will complete immediately.
Upgrade and eventually change a few builds to cav in very productive cities.
Disconnect again.
By doing it that way you are very flexible and can decide from turn to turn how many horses are needed.
Also by having horses around all the time and upgrading every turn, we don't need any units specifically designated to guard our core. There will be always enough units around to counter any attack. If somebody lands, the cavs upgraded the turn before are ready to go. If it really goes bad and we don't have enough cavs to take out the attackers, we can sacrifice horses. And remote corrupt cities can even be given to the attackers. Taking them back hurts Democracies like crazy.
This is also a special note to you, Leif. I will congratulate you, if you manage to loose an unimportant city ;) , because then you will notice that no big damage is done and sandbagging is not the way to go, if one is on an all out warmongering course.
Strategically important cities and core cities should not fall, but there active defense is again the important point.

Everything in the north is not urgent. One can go for Washington or not, just decide flexible.
Shortly before we will succeed on the other continent, there will be some turns, when the supply lines are too long to there. Then we can send all we produce to the north for mopping up.
But as long as we have a few cavs there we can take a few cities, mainly for recreation after the heavy fighting on the other continent, but also to free roads for the fast finish.

@Capt
kick some Aztec butts.

Planting more cities will help with the maintenance. I think we are at 56GPT maintenance. That is an upgrade per turn. I think planting 10 more cities is ideal.

We need a forward base towards Berlin and one towards America. There is a nice spot on a hill near the current accumulation of forces near America. It will also connect the road network. I'd upgrade the cats and send them to work on either Berlin or Washington. No point wasting them. Basically after I took New York all I could do is pillage some American tiles because the cav were healing. It is way too slow without a barracks. Same thing with Berlin.

Watch out for AI's trying to claim the saltpeter near our furs colony. I was sending a settler to that area to provide a base to keep an eye on this area.

I also had a settler on the middle continent to fill out the 2nd ring of the new palace.

Also I think Seattle is undefended. You could let the barbs hammer the American treasury or just raze it.

Small towns support only two units in monarchy. That's only 20 gold over the next 10 turns, which are the most important.

Making settlers either costs money in corrupt towns or takes away productive population, which can make money.

And the cats which could make cheap settlers by disbanding are in the middle of nowhere.

Please note everybody, we are not setting up for the next 50 turns. We want to win in the next 20 turns (ok that's probably a bit optimistic, but 30 latest).

And again, the north is not important currently. One city towards Germany would be enough. Ok two if you want. But note, strategic cities need to be defended. That takes away forces and needs a lot of time, if done correctly (actively).

Please note everybody, we are not setting up for the next 50 turns. We want to win in the next 20 turns (ok that's probably a bit optimistic, but 30 latest).

I agree with this. We should focus every shield and piece of gold on one thing, making offensive units to destroy the civs on the other continent. :hammer: Anything which does not contribute to this goal is a waste of resources. :wallbash: The forces in the north are sufficient for a city or 2 a turn. That should be a satisfactory pace. The settlers we currently have built should be enough to finish the game with, maybe another one or two. A couple of horsemen on patrol along the roads should alert us to anything we need to deal with.

This is also a special note to you, Leif. I will congratulate you, if you manage to loose an unimportant city , because then you will notice that no big damage is done and sandbagging is not the way to go, if one is on an all out warmongering course.
I will lose a couple if you would like, I'm good at it!! :eek: Didn't think I was sandbagging, just trying to follow orders??

The only thing I want to see is the ash from the burning cities where our opponents used to be. I shall do my best!! :spear: At least as good as my RNG allows!! :lol: :lol:

I will lose a couple if you would like, I'm good at it!! :eek: Didn't think I was sandbagging, just trying to follow orders??


Well, you don't have to try extra hard, to loose cities ;) .
I just meant get over the habit of having a unit in nearly every city.
But I will look after the Capt. has played and suggest some cities for risky things :lol: .
We have to look how all develops, especially with transport capacity vs units, but also legions can be disbanded for shields :cool: .

I'm on a busy schedule cause I've started painting our house so I'll have to leave it for this evening. Hopefully I'll be able to play a few turns then.
We're ahead of most of the other teams so I don't think it'll be a prob if I wait til tomorrow eve if I have to, will it?

I'm on a busy schedule cause I've started painting our house so I'll have to leave it for this evening. Hopefully I'll be able to play a few turns then.
We're ahead of most of the other teams so I don't think it'll be a prob if I wait til tomorrow eve if I have to, will it?
I have no problem, if you take your time. But will you find the time at all (sounds like you have a big house to paint ;) ).
The game is in a phase, where it takes very long to play. There are more than 60 (and hopefully growing) cavs around and pretty much each needs to be moved every turn.

We're ahead of most of the other teams so I don't think it'll be a prob if I wait til tomorrow eve if I have to, will it?
We agreed to a 24 hour "Got it" and a 72 hour play time, minimum, more if we asked. You really have another 2 days, so it is really not a problem. Besides, we need your golden RNG!! :lol: :lol:

On housepainting, you need to visit America where our TV ads say they have an electric powered spray paint gun that will finish you house, garage, doghouse, dog, wife and kids in a flash!! :mischief: Hope it is cool enough there so it isn't bad work. We're expecting 2 hurricane remnants to pass here this weekend, getting out the umbrella... Can't work outside, so I guess that means more civ time!!!! :banana:

Don't try to rush it Capt. Take the time you need. We have another month before MB will produce the next game, and we only have maybe 30 more turns to play. I'm off line in two weeks, but if we aren't done by then you'll still be able to finish without me.

We may have a little encouragement. Just checked the score page and Team Tao has reached Smackster's 1300 finish. It will be good news, if we can finish within the next 25 turns!! :eek:

At least we have a goal now. :goodjob:

BTW - I do understand that the finish time is compared to the Jason best date for the victory condition we choose, so the dates may differ depending upon the victory condition our fellow teams select. But we know we have until 1300 so far!! :D

We agreed to a 24 hour "Got it" and a 72 hour play time, minimum, more if we asked. You really have another 2 days, so it is really not a problem. Besides, we need your golden RNG!! :lol: :lol:


I don't think luck will matter all that much now. Actually this sgotm has been kinda funny cause I've played 4 times I think and it really feels like I've been extremely lucky on two of my 10-turns while I've been less than lucky on the two others.

@klarius: let's see, I'll just slip online to give you notice tonight if my wife's todo-list combined with me wanting to finish painting makes me cave in with no Civ powers left in me at 9 pm :lol:

Preflight:
We've got 0 gold and AI ships in our waters with only horsemen nearby. I know chances are slim that they'll land but I won't disconnect our saltpeter just yet...
Also, our military is 21 horses and 3 knights in addition to 66 cavs. Meaning I won't have to disconnect any time soon. Earning 334 gpt from single-scientist research means quite some turns til all horses are upgraded. I'll replace any necessary MPs with cheap legions or even cheaper warrior --> legion upgrades.
City check: I'll generally try to MM for 16 shields in core cities, but rather 12 and 14 shields than 11, 13 or 15. 16 unwasted shields gives us cavs in 5 or horses in 2 with 2 shields wasted.
Sold off 14 libs and 2 temples for 154 gold. Increased income to 344 gpt. Upgraded 3 horses to cavs.
Tentatively pressed enter after 1 1/2 hours (yeah, yeah I know I'm slow when I MM. That's why I tend not to late in the games :lol: )...

IBT:
The Aztecs are moving loads of cavs around, but no attacks. We loose a cav to a German cav attacking out of Berlin.
Treveri Horseman --> Cav
Aurelianorum Horse --> Cav
Lauriacum Arms --> Portus

Turn 1 - 1110AD:
Pillage Russian iron.

Around Lauriacum: Kill a vet Aztec cav with a healthy, soon-to-be 1/4 vet cav.
Kill 2 Vet Aztec cavs with no HP losses off 2 Vet cavs, one promotes.
Kill a reg rifle in Tzintzuntzen with a 13-HP cav army, loosing 7 HPs, but promoting a cav.
Better RNG luck on my second cav army attack on Tzintzuntzen. Loosing only 2 HPs to a reg rifle.
Loose a cav and a HP off a vet cav to take out the last reg rifle in Tzintzuntzen.
Then loose a cav and 2 HPs off a vet cav to a vet cav in Tzintzuntzen. Raze the city. Not many defenders there :)

Upgrade 7 horses.
Disperse 2 barb camps on barb island. Upgrade anpother horse.
The Japanese have founded Hakodate on top of a Saltpeter source on our continent. The defender is a Vet Longbow who takes 2 HPs off a 3/4 cav before dutifully RIPing :cool:
Pillage saltpeter outside Byzantium.

IBT:
Kill two vet Aztec cavs. Loose an elite cav that was misplaced last turn due to a misclick and a musket trying to defend it.
Loose a HP off a vet cav to a Russian knight outside Odessa.
Rome Cav --> Cav
Antium Cav --> Cav
Nicopolis Worker --> Cav
Viroconium Cav --> Cav

Turn 2 - 1120AD:
Upgrade 7 horses and I forgot about the port in Azteca :( Let's hope we won't be hurt too much by that...

Around Lauriacum: Retreat 3 vet cavs, take 4 HP damage on one of our cav armies and loose 1 vet cav against 3 vet rifles and a reg rifle in Teayo.
Loose a vet cav to vet cav in Teayo.
Take Teayo with a vet cav loosing 2 HPs, raze and disband.
Loose 2 !! vet cavs to a vet cav promoting it.
Third vet cav finishes the job and promotes.
Vet cav kills vet cav for no loss and promotes (that's the way to do it :lol: )

Found Curia where Hakodate was, start cav.
Pillage Russian saltpeter.

IBT:
Loose 2 hurt cavs that were undefended following the siege of Teayo.
Veii Cav --> Cav
Mediolanum Worker --> Cav
Hispalis Cav --> Cav
Tarentum Horse --> Cav
Lugdunum Cav --> Cav
Eburacum Horse --> Cav

Turn 3 - 1130AD:
Kill a Japanese vet cav/settler pair with our Legion army.
Disperse barb camp near Byzantium, promoting vet cav to elite.
New Foundland founded in honour of Leif :p Starts cav.
Captain's Cabin founded ;) Starts Horse.
Spotted the barb Alweth.
Portus rushed in Lauriacum.
Upgrade 4 Horses.

Near Lauriacum: Bombard a HP off a musket. Vet cav kills it loosing 2 HPs, but promotes.
Kill a 3/4 musket with a vet cav, loosing 3 HPs.

IBT:
Loose 2 vet cavs defending our cav army. If I had thought it would be so tempting for the AI, I'd have put it on a boat.
Cumae Cav --> Cav
Nicomedia Cav --> Cav
Cyrene Worker --> Cav
Lauriacum Portus --> Moenia

Turn 4 - 1140AD:
Return hurt cavs + army to Lauriacum to heal.
Last 3 horses upgraded, disconnect saltpeter. Find that I cannot build horses anyway. Abandon Curia that was built on top of the saltpeter. How's that for late-night playing, Leif? :lol:
Iron is still connected and all units on the main island is moved...
Kill a barb camp on barb island.

Around Lauriacum: Kill 2 vet Iroq knights loosing 2 HPs off 2 vet cavs.
Time for leader fishing: 2 elite cavs attack vet Mounted warriors, loose a few HPs each, no GL luck.

Kill Japanese reg pike/settler and American reg pike/settler. Both outside Odessa.

IBT:
Aztecs unload a cav near Brundisium.
Germans want to talk. Can you guys even spell "stuff it"?
Neapolis Cav --> Knight (will be changed to horse this turn)
Ravenna Cav --> Knight
Brundisium Caravel --> Knight
Palmyra Cav --> Knight

Turn 5 - 1150AD:
Bombard Odessa until all (both) defenders have 1 HP.
Kill 1-HP musket in Odessa, but loose a vet cav first :(
Leader fishing again. Start with an elite cav win around Odessa, then move on to killing Mounted warriors around Lauriacum --> Leader on 3rd elite win this turn. I name the victorious unit after our GL: AlanH :)
Another Cav army is in place.
I then move back to Odessa, loose an elite cav and 4 HPs off an elite Legion to a 1/3 Pike before razing the city. I'm more than a little surprised to see that it's on grassland after loosing so many HPs to two 1-HP units.
Kill a vet Aztec cav that landed outside Brundisium. I'll leave it to the next player to MM so Veii gets back on track with its 5-turn cav production.
Kill Aztec galley outside Brundisium (I'd actually advice against much of this b/c ships aren't much of a threat and the AI is much to late to disband units that it doesn't need).

Lots of cavs (28, I think) are on their way towards the Aztecs. W/r to shipchaining: I've never really done it so I didn't (I couldn't be bothered to figure out how to do it properly at 1:30 AM), but I've got no qualms about it (for the record).
I've just about emptied out our mainland. That doesn't mean that we're defenseless. We're not, but the AI had nothing worthwhile to throw against us for my turns so I thought I might as well use the cavs.
I don't think the northeners will give us much prob. I'd advice taking out the American main land citites first, then Russia and finally Germany. We've got a recouperating elite cav outside America's barb island city which should easily take care of anything that pops up in Seattle (iirc).
I tried to make a little headway in Azteca, but it proved too costly so I regrouped in our town for the next player to use. I wish we had some artillery over there. The artillery may be too slow to keep up with the cavs, but we could have put them on ships and unloaded next to the big AI coastal cities, there's a lot of them.
There's quite a few settler builds going on. I really don't know why. I inherited them from Adrian. Personally I don't see the use for settlers atm. We need cavs and more cavs and the best way to get them is to reconnect the saltpeter and upgrade, so my advice is switch the settlers to horses and rush as many horses as can be done in corrupt towns, then wait til next turn for the towns to get started on another horse and reconnect saltpeter (one worker is already at it, two more are on the spot).
Btw: our cav armies are now stranded on the Aztec continent. They've all got 4 units each.

Edit: forgot perhaps the most important bit: there are forces in Azteca waiting for Leif's decision. I'd also advice rushing the walls there.

Good Buttkicking (TM)!

Roster:
1100 AD-1150 AD Capt Buttkick
1150 AD-1200 AD leif erikson UP
1200 AD-1250 AD AlanH On deck
1250 AD-1275 AD Klarius
1275 AD-1300 AD AdrianE

The new cavs arriving shortly should help make inroads in Azteca. We certainly need to push out from our beachhead.our cav armies are now stranded on the Aztec continentWhere else would we want them? :D

New Foundland founded in honour of Leif :p Starts cav.
Captain's Cabin founded ;) Starts Horse.

Abandon Curia that was built on top of the saltpeter. How's that for late-night playing, Leif? :lol:

'I name the victorious unit after our GL: AlanH :)
Another Cav army is in place.

I am humbled and honored by your generosity. But I am even more thankful for 28 cavs heading for Azteca!! :goodjob:

While you were kicking some AI Butt, it sounds like the sleep monster was kicking YOUR Butt!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I know how this feels, especially when I try to figure out all this MM... It makes one head for the medicine cabinet for some aspirin.

Thanks for creating the Army too, another decision I won't have to make. I have been thinking about the uses for GL and I'm not sure that making armies is the best use right now. An Army allows only one attack per turn and it seems that we will need more attacks to reduce these big cities, hopefully evening out the RNG. While Artillery would be nice, wouldn't you need quite a large stack to reduce the cities?

Planning to start in about 8 hours. Hopefully can finish before the sleep monster gets me, but then what excuse will I have???? :mischief:

rmy allows only one attack per turn and it seems that we will need more attacks to reduce these big cities,
I used to think this, but I now believe an army can attack again as long as all the units in it have not already attacked to kill the first defender. The bigger problem with armies is the slow recovery rate. They are certainly better able to survive during attacks on large hill fortresses. An alternative use for a leader is to rush a cavalry in a city built local to the front, with a rushed barracks, but 80 shields seems a small reward for all that work to get the leader in the first place.

I should also have thanked the Capt for immortalising my nick :D

Lots of cavs (28, I think) are on their way towards the Aztecs.

That's not lots of. I want many more, And there are no horses to upgrade. Ship chaining is not necessary, but producing horses and upgrade to cavs.
And move all on the shortest way to Aztec land not into the city.


I've just about emptied out our mainland.

No you did not. There are cavs everywhere, sitting around idle. Cavs in our land should always be on the way to transport. That provides enough defence, if there are also lots of horses around.
And what are all these cavs doing on the middle continent?


I don't think the northeners will give us much prob. I'd advice taking out the American main land citites first, then Russia and finally Germany. We've got a recouperating elite cav outside America's barb island city which should easily take care of anything that pops up in Seattle (iirc).

Forget the north for now and make more cavs. I'm sure we could have made 30-40 cavs more in the last 10 turns, if the last two drivers would have concentrated on this.


I tried to make a little headway in Azteca, but it proved too costly so I regrouped in our town for the next player to use. I wish we had some artillery over there. The artillery may be too slow to keep up with the cavs, but we could have put them on ships and unloaded next to the big AI coastal cities, there's a lot of them.

Staying in town is bad. As well as putting all the cavs in armies. Don't make any more armies. The only use of armies is providing cover outside of the city for the cavs, which cannot make it back after they killed something in active defense or razed a city. Attacking with armies leads to them loosing hitpoints and they need much too long to recover.

And don't let the Aztecs settle again.

And we cannot spare the ships for transporting artillery and it would be nonsense anyway. You need maybe 10 artillery pieces to make any impact on towns. Even if we would have the ships the transport would need several turns from town to town.
It's much better to loose cavs and just make enough new ones.

There's quite a few settler builds going on. I really don't know why. I inherited them from Adrian. Personally I don't see the use for settlers atm.

There are some settlers slowly building in corrupt cities. That's coming from me. We will want some settlers on the other continent. But really we could have taken them off and used the existing settlers. As soon as a settler completes he should be transported over.
If you don't plan ahead you will never have a settler at hand, when you need one.

We need cavs and more cavs and the best way to get them is to reconnect the saltpeter and upgrade, so my advice is switch the settlers to horses and rush as many horses as can be done in corrupt towns, then wait til next turn for the towns to get started on another horse and reconnect saltpeter (one worker is already at it, two more are on the spot).


Don't rush horses. Just organise it right and we can produce more than we have gold to upgrade.
And again I posted somewhere above how to do it, connect and disconnect in the same turn with 6 workers. By that you can estimate the needed horses. Not more than one to three cities should ever produce cavs.

In the next few turns every city will have to produce horses to get up to speed. I would recommend to change every cav build that doesn't complete in the next 3 turns to horses now, even if it wastes some shields. It's cheaper in the end.

And another point about workers. Half of them, or so, do low priority or nonsense jobs.
On the other side there are Syracuse, Ravenna, Brundisium, Hippo Regius, Artaxta and Jerusalem, where a merged in worker could produce another 2-3 gold (3-4 if you consider support).
Especially I want to mention Ravenna. This city has an aqueduct since several turns. It could grow within 1 turn with a small MM action and then could be pumped up to size 11. This would give around 10 gpt more after corruption.

If you run short on workers then get Pompeii back in worker pump mode at small size. There are enough cities around to work all the tiles.

And a final point to Leif, disband the cats before even starting. I should have done it already, but I walked them back to disband them for shields. They have used up 200 gold in the last 20 turns w/o giving any benefit.
Also look around to disband legions in towns, which could use the shields. Their time is over. If you have too much transport capacity in the next few turns you could also ship them over to serve as bait.

Well, while I pondered my rant, several posts came up.
Re armies:
Armies have the blitz ability. They can attack as long as they have a movement point available. But that's no good idea. That will damage an army badly.
An army will need one turn at rest in a barracks city for every member in it to heal completely. Healing w/o barracks takes forever.

@Klarius - After reading your "rant", I would like to summarize and ask a few questions.

Priority of tasks.
1. Disband cats wherever they are. Disband Legions that are not serving a useful purpose and utilize their shields to build useful things, like horses.

2. Form 2 worker bands and get them on the iron (Why do we need to hook up iron at all, cavs require Saltpeter and horses?) and saltpeter for 1 turn connection, with a unit for disconnection (Legion should suffice for this and we have enough).

3. Change cav builds that require more than 3 turns to horses.

4. Move all but a handful of cavs to ports for immediate shipment to the other continent. Set up some roving horse patrols in the former English area. Allow enough cavs in the north for active defense and an occassional strike at a city - this is low priority. In the north the primary missions should be defense and destruction of any newly founded towns.

5. Attack, attack and attack some more in Azteca. From my quick look at the save, it seems like we have a lot of armies but few cavs.

Some questions,
1. With the Armies in Azteca, should we send a couple deep into enemy territory to unhook resources? As an Army can not pillage in this game, that will also require a cav in support to do the dirty work. :mischief: Don't know if we can afford to have cavs out running around when there is destruction to do but I see cavs from several nations around our town in Azteca. It would be nice if they couldn't build any, although the AI seems to usually go for defense, like riflemen. Can't disconnect them!!

2. I would like to keep two Armies close to the battle to cover for wounded and, if necessary, to knock out the occassional tough position (i.e. when we get a herioc defender in a city). Is this a sensible use of assets?

3. It looks to me as though we don't need all the workers we have. You spoke of merging some into cities. Besides the 6 we need for hooking up saltpeter and a few around to reconnect the odd accident :blush: , is there a reason to maintain more workers?

I think I covered all that I am thinking about. If there is more, let em know. Thanks.... :crazyeye:

edit - and Great Leaders (not that I'll get any), should we use them for Barracks in new cities or cavs in Azteca? Can't think of why not? :eek:

@Leif, another of my big strategy spam posts.

First the points you took out of my strategy rant.

1.) Yes

2.) no need to connect iron. Irons within city boundaries can be mined, but not roaded.

3.) Yes.
One exception would be Lunacantorium. It could either build a caravel in 1, or a temple for still some more commerce tiles (to free some coast tiles for Brundisium). The temple could complete in 2, with a disbanded legion and cat.

4.) Not even a handful of cavs within our core except the ones on the move.
But you have to move them one turn at a time to be flexible in case of landings.
In the North I see St. Petersburg and Boston ready to fall, if you set-up in the preturn. St. Petes would now give some roads back to our cities to move wounded troops out.
Get also one or two caravels to Germany for support and picking up redlined cavs (and later maybe a shipment to Cologne or Nuremburg).
Other than that I would like Leipzig been pillaged for food. It shall shrink and be destroyed as forces permit, to get rid of Sistine, which is one of the last things keeping the happiness in Germany fall through the floor completely.
The knight army together with one horse or wounded cav could do it.

But all this northern action is not so important and shouldn't lead to reinforcements to the north, even if you should loose a city in the north.

5.) Yes we have too few cavs not bound in armies. And one army is wounded badly. Still we should go out to kill everything we can in the open. But attack with armies only very week stuff, so they don't loose too much. Try to get the cavs under army cover when they can't return.

To the questions (a little bit unsorted):

Disconnecting resources is always nice, but the ways are far. And as you already stated it doesn't help much, the kill ratio with rifles is typically even worse than with cavs or knights.

I would go mainly for direct kills of cities. Move a healthy army towards a city to cover cavs.
Then attack with as many cavs as needed and don't move the cavs first after their attack.
Only after the city is razed look if you need to cover the wounded or it's time to move to the next city. And always move reinforcements only after the city is (hopefully) razed, to maximize movement.
The goal in the next time should be to get a corridor towards the north, not to kill the Aztecs completely.
For the corridor it's probably necessary to raze Tenochtitlan, because of it's immense culture boundary. But for sure all the coast towns there have to go ASAP.
You have to expect to loose 2-5 cavs per city (Teno may take more).
That's why we really need every cav we can produce, but we can produce enough. If all is optimized for commerce, how I would like to see it, we should be able to get in around 400 gpt. That's 8 cavs from upgrades.
After we have enough horses again it maybe feasible to produce also a few cavs directly.
A few gold pieces can also come from barb camps and razed cities.
When we have really something like hundred cavs over at the other continent, we really should look to loose as many as we ferry over, so that our support cost doesn't get to high.
It really then is a question on every redlined cav whether to try to heal it or better use it as bait, to save healthy cavs.

Try to not use the armies for attack except in emergencies. Their ability to cover is more important. Rather use more cavs (as soon as we have them).

And we should look to it to get a settler over soon. I see the need of a second city near the Aztec-Iro border as soon as the area is cleaned up. Waiting till you see the perfect spot is much too late to start the journey.
Another city should be in the Madras area, a bit later. And maybe one more in India and Japan.
That's it, what I think we should settle for the rest of the game.

Yes prime use of the workers should be to pump up commerce cities. A few tile improvements do still make sense, but one should really think first and not just mine something, which has only marginal benefit.
Especially highly to totally corrupt cities don't need mines (and there are already quite a few and some more minings underway).
If corrupt cities can grow to size seven, they should grow. If not, use taxmen, make workers for other cities or one of the few settlers we still need.

As I stated already above, if you don't find enough workers for the merge in program, Pompeii can churn out a few. We don't loose anything if Pompeii shrinks, the tiles can be worked by other cities as well.
If you don't need workers, Pompeii can operate at size 6, with a horse every 2 turns.

Edit:
A few more thoughts looking on the save.
The healthy army has still two movement points. It can attack two low defense units, and should end it's turn in the tile north of Lauriacum, to block the one move tile. The other cavs visible should also be taken out, by cavs and even the armies if necessary, the already redlined cavs should heal, but don't be shy to use 3HP cavs. One army should probably end on the hill N-NW. This will lead to no units able to attack in the interturn and after that we have a few more healthy cavs.
The reinforcements should land at the nearest point to optimize the turnaround of the caravels. They shall then take out Tzintzuntzen on turn 2 which will allow the rest of the SoD to get active towards Lauriacum and Tlaxcala We will be able to move 1 or 2 tiles on roads, which allows to reach Lauriacums save zone and set-up for Tlaxcala and Xochicalco on turn 3. It's important to remove all these cities. We have currently a non-zero flip risk on Lauria.

I absolutely disagree about disbanding the cats. They should be upgraded to cannons and sent to blast the big cities in the north. So what if it takes time. Klarius is not advocating a quick attack up there anyway.

It is called conservation of force. No need to waste 80 shield cavalries attacking riflemen on hill cities. Can you say defense of 12. It is so much easier and cheaper to kill them off when they have 1 hp. A big SOD backed up by 16 to 20 cannons can slowly and cheaply crunch the northern cities.

klarius' approach seems to be criminally wasteful to me. It takes too many losses to be considered good play. If you consider the time it takes to build replacement cavs and ship them to the battlefield, klarius' approach is actually slower and much less efficient.

After playing the oda in m-b's first gotm replay, I am a HUGE believer in the power of artillery. It would be stupid to waste the artillery we have. Use it sensibly.

A big stack of frigates might be worth it to blast coastal towns. At least that way we would get some artillery support for the main battles to come.

I absolutely disagree about disbanding the cats. They should be upgraded to cannons and sent to blast the big cities in the north. So what if it takes time. Klarius is not advocating a quick attack up there anyway.

It is called conservation of force. No need to waste 80 shield cavalries attacking riflemen on hill cities. Can you say defense of 12. It is so much easier and cheaper to kill them off when they have 1 hp. A big SOD backed up by 16 to 20 cannons can slowly and cheaply crunch the northern cities.

klarius' approach seems to be criminally wasteful to me. It takes too many losses to be considered good play. If you consider the time it takes to build replacement cavs and ship them to the battlefield, klarius' approach is actually slower and much less efficient.

After playing the oda in m-b's first gotm replay, I am a HUGE believer in the power of artillery. It would be stupid to waste the artillery we have. Use it sensibly.

A big stack of frigates might be worth it to blast coastal towns. At least that way we would get some artillery support for the main battles to come.

I gave you the opportunity to upgrade the cats for your arty attack in the north (they where 1 tile from a city, iron ready to hook by a colony), but you decided to ignore it and move the cats towards the anyway soft targets.
Cats are nearly worthless against rifles and it will take another ten turns or longer to upgrade them and get them in action. That's again a lot wasted money.

The rifles in the north can come last when we anyways have more cavs than we need then. And BTW, which big cities. Berlin is already very small. The two size 7 German cities will also shrink either on their own or by pillaging their food.
America and Russia still have no rifles. Even bigger cities fall easily to cavs. And there is only one left currently, which could be razed the next turn.

Good play is fast and successful play to me. It doesn't matter if we loose a lot of units as long as we build these lots. The ships can do the journey in 2 turns on the shortest path. The cavs can move 9 tiles on roads per turn. And they can get into attack range fast even with large culture boundaries.
If done right there is all in place. We have the ships to ferry over, we have the ability to build and upgrade. It just needs concentrated play.

And with artillery attacks this game will take three times longer at least. With an artillery stack you can at best attack one city every 5-6 turns. Even with 4 or 5 stacks you could never get to the speed of 2 or 3 cav stacks. And you would need much more unit support cost. You still have to drag several cavs along for the kill and defensive units to not lose your stacks.

If we should leave this much time to the AI's we really run in the danger to face infantry in the end. That's still doable (in my opinion again by just losing even more cavs), but very tough.

Frigates are no option because we don't have magnetism. But they also wouldn't help much. The toughest nuts on the other continent are not coastal towns

OK, Here are 5 more turns. We are amking progress but we need more Cavs in Azteca. They are starting to know we are there and should really feel it after Alan gets done with them!! ;)

Pre-flight for Turn 230 – 1150 AD

After reading Adrian’s and Klarius’ comments concerning the catapults, I decide to count the turns required to move them to a city, upgrade them and then get them to some point for action. The nearest city is Teurnia, a 5-turn journey that includes the time to upgrade. To then move the artillery to a point of action, there are 3 cities in the north on hills (Berlin, Leipzig and Washington), Leipzig is the closest, would require 6 more turns. To then move on Berlin would require an additional 2 turns minimum. In addition, they require a guard, currently 2 vet Cavs that have better things to do. I decide that the cats are not worth that much effort or resources. They have been moved so I will disband them start of next turn. Sorry Adrian. :blush:
Move cat into Lunacantorium and disband.
Wake Vet. Legion in Lunacantorium and disband him and change Cav. to Temple.
Make following production changes in cities:
Lugdunum Cav. – Horse with a loss of 2 shields.
Aurelianorum Cav. – Horse.
Veii Cav. – Horse, loss of 1 shield.
Cumae Cav. – Horse.
Seleucia Cav. – Horse, loss of 13 shields but Cav. required 4 more turns.
Nicomedia Cav. – Horse.
Hippo Regius Cav. – Horse, loss of 15 shields but Cav required 5 more turns.
Verona Cav. – Horse, loss of 6 shields.
Bagacum Legion – Horse.
Visit my namesake, New Foundland and change from Horse to Harbor.
I find a worker building a road near the Saltpeter colony and decide that I will use the saltpeter near Pisae for connecting and disconnecting. I begin moving workers to form a stack of 6.
MM Ravenna for growth.
Now to the combat zone, around Lauriacum.
Wake Cannon and bombard Indian Vet. Cav, causes 1 HP damage.
Wake Elite Cav and attack Reg. Indian Cav, Indian loses and we lose 1 HP.
Wake Elite 3/5 Cav and attack Vet Indian Cav (3/4), defeat him losing 1 HP, return to city to heal.
Looks like we have to use Armies to attack as all the other Cavs in Lauriacum have already attacked someone.
Wake Reg. Army (11/18) and move N, then attacks a Vet Iroquois Knight N, defeats him losing 2 HP. Fortify on the spot.
Move Reg. Army (16/17) N and then attack NE, an Indian Vet Cav, defeats him without loss. Same Army attacks NE, a Reg. Indian Cav, defeats him losing 1 HP.
Only unit left is an Iroquois Reg. Mounted Warrior and I have nothing to attack him with.
I think all is done so I press the Spacebar.

IBT
The Americans request an audience. They want Peace so I check them out. They have Printing Press, Economics and Physics plus 20 Gold. They do not have Military Tradition. I throw them a kiss and bid farewell, see you in Washington bub!!
Monty send us a not so welcoming party around Lauriacum including, 3 Cavs, 1 Sword and a Musket in the woods next to Lauriacum and a Cav and a Sword N and NE. The Iroquois contribute a LB, a musket and an archer. An additional Cav unit can be seen to the N.
Didn’t get all the Barb attacks but there were many on the middle island. Approximately 6 Barb Horsemen took a tour of Seattle.
Augustadorum Horse – Horse.
Veii Horse – Horse.
Seleucia Horse – Horse.
Verona Horse – Horse.
Jerusalem Cavalry – Horse.
Hispalis Horse – Horse.
Lugdunum Horse – Horse.
Hippo Regius Horse – Horse.
Lutetia Cav – Horse.
Gonzomonium Cav – Horse.
Aurelianorum Horse – Horse.
Agrippina Horse – Horse.
Trapezus Horse – Horse.

Turn 231 – 1160 AD.
Start with the Caravels. Move them north near Tzintzuntzen and unload NE of the town. There is an Aztec Galley there that I ignore. 18 Cavs landed, thanks Capt. :goodjob:
3 more loaded Caravels move towards the same landing spot.
Disband 10 Catapults.
Elite Cav attacks American Vet Pike (3/4) covering a settler and kills him without loss, disband the workers.
Move all the Cavs and Horsemen towards Ravenna for boarding or for upgrade and boarding.
In the north, reposition Cavs to try to take a few cities.
Around Lauriacum.
Reg Army (15/17) fortifies on hill E of Xochicalco.
Cannon bombards Aztec Reg. Musket in woods, bombardment failed.
Wake Vet Cav and attack Reg. Aztec Musket, kill musket losing 1 HP.
Wake Vet Cav and attack Vet Aztec Cav, dies while redlining the Aztec Cav.
Wake Vet Cav and attack Vet Aztec Cav, kill Cav while losing 1 HP.
Wake Vet Cav and attack Vet Aztec Cav, dies while redlining the Aztec Cav.
Wake vet Cav and attack Vet Aztec Sword, kill Sword and lose 1 HP.
Wake Elite (4/5) Cav and attack redlined Aztec Cav, defeat him losing 1 HP.
Wake Elite (4/5) Cav and attack redlined Aztec Cav, defeat him without loss.
Disband a cat and a Legion or two.

IBT
Iroquois Reg. Mounted Warrior attacks our Cav stack near Tzintzuntzen and defeats one of our Vet Cavs while losing 1 HP. Hey Capt, sure I can’t have that RNG of yours???? :eek:
Aztecs request an audience. They want peace but, sorry!!
Around Tzintzuntzen.
6 Aztec Cavs attack our stack and we win 3 and they win 3, 2 of their wins redlined and the other lost 2/4, then they moved into the town. An Aztec Sword also attacked and lost. We have several redlined units, but the stack is intact. I guess my RNG isn’t so bad after all, I’ll stop whining now!! ;)
Rome Cav – Horse.
Sirmium Horse – Horse.
Cumae Horse – Horse.
Nicomedia Horse – Horse.
Pisae Cav – Horse.
Viroconium Cav – Horse.
Artaxata Cav – Horse.
Syracuse Cav – Horse.
Lunacantorium Temple – Horse.
Arretium Cav – Horse.

Turn 232 – 1170 AD
Check our SoD, ended last turn with 18 units, now there are 14, 10 are Vet (4/4), 1 is (3/4), 1 is (2/4), 1 is (1/4) and 1 is Elite (2/5).
Start by attacking Tzintzuntzen (can’t wait to get rid of it so I don’t have to spell it anymore). :lol:
Vet Cav attacks Reg. Musket, Cav retreats inflicting 1 HP damage.
Vet Cav attacks Vet Cav (3/4), defeats him with 1 HP loss.
Vet Cav attacks Reg. Musket (2/3), defeats him but redlines in the process.
Vet Cav attacks Vet Sword, retreats redlined inflicting 1 HP damage.
Vet Cav attacks Vet Cav (2/4), defeats him without loss.
Vet Cav attacks Vet Sword (3/4), defeats him without loss.
Vet Cav attacks Vet Cav (1/4), defeats him without loss and we raze the city while liberating 5 gold.
Vet Cav attacks Vet Aztec Rifle, Cav dies after inflicting 1 HP damage.
Vet Cav attacks same Rifle, retreats redlined and did no damage.
Vet Cav attacks same Rifle, defeats him losing 1 HP and promotes.
Wake vet Cav (3/4) and attacks Iroquois Reg. (2/3) Mounted Warrior, defeats him without loss.
Land 9 more Vet Cavs ands send Caravels back for more.
Join 2 workers to Ravenna.
Join 2 workers to Jerusalem.
In the North.
Vet Cav attacks an American Vet Pike and defeats him losing 2 HP and promotes.
Seige of Boston.
Vet Cav attacks a Reg. Pike, retreats causing no damage.
Vet Cav attacks Reg. Pike, defeats him without loss and razes Boston, earning 3 Gold.
Disband 3 American Workers.
In Lauriacum, wake an Elite Cav and attack Vet Aztec Cav, kill him and lose 2 HP, return to city and fortify.

IBT
Our SoD in Azteca is attacked 4 times.
1. Iroquois Cav attacks and destroys a Vat Cav, redlining in the process.
2. Aztec Cav attacks and dies, our Cav loses 2 Hp and promotes.
3. Aztec Cav attacks and destroys our Cav, redlining in the process.
4. Aztec sword attacks and dies, our Cav loses 1 HP.
German LB attacks a Vet Cav and dies, inflicting 2 HP damage.
German LB attacks same Cav and it retreats redlined.
Various Barb. Attacks.
Veii Horse – Horse.
Antium Cav – Horse.
Neapolis Horse – Horse.
Pompeii Cav – Horse.
Ravenna Horse – Horse.
Lugundum Horse – Horse.
Brundisium Horse – Horse.
Palmyra Horse – Horse.

Turn 233 – 1180 AD
Our SoD in Azteca is faced by a Reg. Musket, a Vet Sword and a Vet Cav (1/4).
Vet Cav attacks Reg. Aztec Musket, defeats him losing 2 HP.
Vet Cav attacks Vet Aztec Sword, Cav retreats redlined inflicting 2 HP damage.
Vet Cav attacks Vet Sword (2/4), defeats him losng 2 HP.
Elite Cav (3/5) attacks redlined Vet Aztec Cav, defeats him becoming redlined.
Vet Cav attacks Iroquois Vet Cav (1/4), defeats him without loss and advances, meeting an Aztec Vet Cav and Aztec reg. Musket side by side.
Vet Cav attacks Vet Aztec Cav, defeats him becoming redlined.
Vet Cav attacks Reg. Aztec Musket, loses while inflicting 1 HP damage.
Vet Cav attacks same Musket, loses inflicting 1 HP damage, Musket promotes.
Vet Cav attacks same Charmed Musket, defeats him losing 1 HP damage.
We earn 25 gold attacking a Barb Camp.
Near Leipzig.
Vet Cav attacks Vet German LB (3/4), defeats him without loss and promotes.
Pillage some food squares around Leipzig.
Around St. Petersburg.
Vet Cav attacks Reg. Russian Musket, defeats him without loss and promotes (note: why doesn’t this happen in Azteca??) :p
Elite Cav attacks Reg. Russian Pike, defeats him losing 1 HP and razing the city and disbanding 3 captured workers. Fortifies to heal.
Around Washington.
Vet Cav attacks Vet American Pike, dies while inflicting 2 HP loss, Pike promotes.
Vet Cav attacks Reg. American Pike, defeats Pike losing 1 HP.
Vet Cav attacks Reg. Pike, dies while redlining the Pike.
Vet Cav attacks Elite Pike (3/5), defeats him losing 2 HP and promotes.
Elite Cav attacks Reg. Pike (1/3), defeats him without loss and we raze Washington, earning 3 Gold and disbanding 6 workers (what a shame).
Vet Cav attacks Reg. American Knight, loses, redlining Knight, then Knight promotes??
Elite Cav (3/5) attacks same Knight, Cav dies, redlining Knight.
Join 2 workers to Syracuse.
Join 2 workers to Hippo Regius.
Around Lauriacum.
Cannon bombards Iroquois Reg LB, redlining him.
Vet Cav attacks redlined LB, defeats him without loss and promotes.
Vet Cav attacks an Indian Reg. Horse, defeats him without loss. Cav moves to join others from the SoD.
Move now healed Reg Army (16/16) over to cover the small Cav stack near Tlaxcala.
Land another 12 Cavs from Caravels.
BTW – We are now earning 398 GPT.
Time to get the Saltpeter reconnected. Sorry but I had trouble getting the workers to the square to road. Almost there.

IBT
Japanese capture Capt’s Cabin from us, told you I would lose one Klarius. Sorry Capt. Didn’t realize it was a Samuaria that can move 2 squares, thought it was infantry. :cry:
Near Tlaxcala, Indian Archer attacks redlined Cav and kills him without loss.
Aztecs move settlers toward the area where we just destroyed their city, one covered by a Vet Rifle and the other by a Vet Cav.
An Indian Vet Cav shows up near Lauriacum and the Iroquois have a Musket, LB and an Archer nearby.
American redlined Knight attacks a redlined Cav and dies.
Rome Horse – Horse.
Jerusalem Horse – Horse.
Trevari Horse – Horse.
Hispalis Horse – Horse.
Viroconium Horse – Horse.
Lutetia Horse – Horse.
Gonzomonium Horse – Horse.
Aesonesium Settler – Settler.

Part 2, Can you imagine that with only 5 turns. You'd think I was writing a novel???? :lol: :lol:

Turn 234 – 1190 AD
Near Tlaxcala.
Vet Cav attacks Vet Aztec Cav, dies while redlining the enemy, who promotes.
Vet Cav attacks same Cav (2/5), dies while redlining the enemy. (What is going to happen when I attack the rifle??) :rolleyes:
Vet Cav (3/4) attacks same Cav (1/5), finally defeats him without loss and returns to the stack, workers are disbanded.
Vet Cav attacks Vet Aztec Rifle, defeats him and redlining. Workers are disbanded.
From sea landing stack.
Vet Cav attacks Reg. Indian Archer, defeats him without loss and promotes.
Vet Cav moves to attack Vet Indian Cav, our Cav dies inflicting 2 HP damage.
Vet Cav moves and attacks same Cav, defeats him without loss.
Move 12 Cavs up under the Army protection for the assault on Tlaxcala.
Join a worker to Jerusalem.
Join 2 workers to Nicomedia.
At Capt.’s Cabin.
Vet Cav attacks Reg. Japanese Samurai, defeats the Samurai losing 2 HP and promotes and retakes the town. Checking to see what the population looks like. There is 1 Roman citizen so we keep our city. There you go Capt.!! Production is set to Barracks.
Around Lauriacum.
Vet Cav attacks Reg. Iroquois Musket, defeats him but redlines.
Elite Cav attacks Reg. Iroquois Archer, defeats him without loss.
Elite Cav attacks Reg. (2/3) Iroquois LB, defeats him without loss.
Move the Elite Cavs onto hill protected by Army for assault on Xochicalco.

IBT
Around SoD.
Indian Vet Cav attacks our lonely Vet Cav and loses, redlining our Cav but he promotes.
Aztec Vet Cav attacks our lonely Cav (2/5) and defeats him losing 2 HP and promoting.
Aztec Vet Cav attacks our landing site and defeats one of our Elite (4/5) Cavs, redlining.
Aztec vet Cav attacks landing site and loses.
More Aztec Cav move up around Lauriacum.
Varous Barb attacks.
Veii Horse – Horse.
Seleucia Horse – Horse.
Antium Horse – Horse.
Nicopolis Horse – Horse.
Cumae Horse – Horse.
Nicomedia Horse – Horse.
Pisae Horse – Horse.
Lugdunum Horse – Horse.
Hippo Regius Horse – Horse.
Artaxata Horse – Horse.
Syracuse Horse – Horse.
Tyrus Temple – Caravel.
Byzantium Horse – Horse.

Turn 235 – 1200 AD
Saltpeter is connected.
In Ravenna there are 20 Horsemen that get upgraded to Cavs.
Upgraded all the horses on the map except the one in Captain’s Cabin (No Barracks). That leaves me nothing to pillage the saltpeter with but there is a Cav in Pisae that you can use next turn to “create a small accident”.
There are 24 Cavs in Ravena that can be loaded next turn and another 4 in Rome and then some others scattered about. I upgraded them because, with their increased movement, you might be able to get them loaded into Caravels next turn.
Join worker to Hippo Regius.
Near Corfinium.
Elite Cav moves into Corfinium and attacks a Reg. Japanese Musket. Musket kills our Cav and he only damages the Musket 1 HP.
Elite Legion attacks Musket, defeats him but goes to redline, phew!!
Around Tlaxcala.
Vet (3/4) Cav attacks et (2/4) Aztec Cav, defeats him but redlines.
Vet Cav attacks Tlaxcala, defended by a Vet Rifle. Our Cav is defeated but he redlines the Rifle.
Elite Cav attacks Vet Rifle, retreats redlined.
Vet Cav attacks Vet Rifle, loses but redlines the Rifle.
Vet Cav attacks Vet Rifle, is redlined but defeats the Rifle and promotes.
Vet Cav attacks Vet Rifle, is redlined but defeats the Rifle.
Vet Cav attacks a redlined Vet Rifle, loses and Rifle promotes.
Vet Cav attacks Elite (2/5) Rifle and defeats him losing 2 HP.
Vet Cav attacks Vet redlined Rifle, defeats him without loss and razes Tlaxcala, destroying The Colossus and earning 14 Gold. 5 Workers are then disbanded. That opened up some territory.
OK, we still have 5 healthy Cavs remaining. Vet Cav attacks Vet Aztec Cav escorting a settler, we lose doing only 1 HP damage.
Vet Cav attacks same Cav, defeats him losing 1 HP, workers are disbanded.
Vet Cav attacks Elite (4/5) Aztec Cav, defeats him losing 1 HP and promotes. Moves onto hill with Army near Lauriacum.
Vet Cav attacks Vet Aztec Cav, defeats him losing 2 HP, moves into Lauriacum and fortifies.
Vet Cav attacks Vet Aztec Cav, defeats him losing 2 HP.
Move Army to cover wounded from Tlaxcala assault.
Land 9 more Cavs in Azteca, one caravel went awry due to mis-click, sorry.
In the North.
Vet Cav is following a Russian Vet Musket until he finds some less defensive terrain for an attack. Looks like he is on a pillaging mission.
Near Leipzig.
Elite Cav attacks Vet German LB, kills him without loss.


After Action Report.
Military Progress – We destroyed 2 Aztec cities and are poised to take out Xochicalo. There are 4 elite Cavs and a fresh Army fortified on the hill overlooking the town. You can attack before the turn if you feel lucky or wait until next turn for reinforcements.
We also destroyed several towns in the northern area and the units are almost healed for your use. The Americans don’t have very good defenses and the Russians aren’t much better. The Germans are being a pain in the backside sending out units to attacks. They are actually playing a fairly spirited active defense, so watch out.
The Japanese have landed on the middle island, so watch them. I missed their Samurai (dumb, see Klarius, I did it!!) thinking it was infantry and they moved right in.
The Aztec city defense was considerable, 4 or 5 Vet Rifles, so attack with strength.

Economy – We are earning 402 GPT. I just upgraded about 30 Horses to Cav and we still have 771 Gold in the treasury. There is still a Scientist cranking away somewhere.

We are now in the lead amongst our in game rivals with a Firaxis score of 1685. As usual, I won no Great Leaders but Alan, you should be set up to take out Tenochtitlan once you can ferry over the reinforcements. Have fun, but it is a slog. Oh, there is a settler working his way over to the embarkation city, Ravenna. I think you might need him a little bit further north, certainly Klarius will.

As always, please feel free to change any builds (they all say horses) that you would like. Good luck and happy hunting, you won’t be bored!!!! :banana:
<< The Save >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Xteam_SG003_AD1200_01.SAV)

Thanks leif. Sounds like you enjoyed that!
I've got it, but with visitors today I may not get to it until tomorrow.

Roster:
1100 AD-1150 AD Capt Buttkick
1150 AD-1200 AD leif erikson
1200 AD-1250 AD AlanH UP
1250 AD-1275 AD Klarius On deck
1275 AD-1300 AD AdrianE

The Japanese have landed on the middle island, so watch them. Can't see them, only a galleon. Are they in the fog somewhere?

Looks very good. :goodjob:


Japanese capture Capt’s Cabin from us, told you I would lose one Klarius.

Very clever tactical move to get some war weariness into Japan. Congrats. [party] ;)

Now that you had some mainly peaceful builder turns ;) , Alan can do some real war.
And I hope total war will start in my turn set.

Nice how you brought our commerce up.
There's probably still the one or other odd GP which can be MM'ed, but the important things are well going.

Can't see them, only a galleon. Are they in the fog somewhere?
That Galleon has landed its cargo already, evidence my sleepiness in the turn log!! :rolleyes:
When I wrote that, I meant to be aware that it has happened and fooled me. :blush: They pop out of the fog and disembark units close enough to trouble a couple of cities where we have limited units to react. The AI has shown itself to be quite predictable, so it will probably do so again. We can use that to bait some units there if we wish. Just leave Capt.'s Cabin with no defender and I bet they return.

Thanks Alan, I did enjoy that turn set. I think it is the first time in this game that I understood what I should be working towards and was in sync with what we were trying to do. :D Hope you enjoy your visitors and then, have a great time!! :hammer: :rockon:

edit - @Klarius - Thanks, it proves once again that there are many sides to Civ and a player's knucklehead move can be a positive thing, sometimes!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: When it happened, I had to laugh at myself because you had predicted it and it was silly.

That's not lots of. I want many more, And there are no horses to upgrade. Ship chaining is not necessary, but producing horses and upgrade to cavs.
And move all on the shortest way to Aztec land not into the city.
Please reread the turn log. I disconnected saltpeter as soon as I had upgraded all horses left me. Something that you yourself suggested. Then I changed all builds that weren't well over 30 shields to horses. So what would you have done? With time I agree with using the shortest route across the ocean. I felt pressured during my turns so decided to do the safest thing and run them all the way into the city where they could come to use on that same turn.

No you did not. There are cavs everywhere, sitting around idle. Cavs in our land should always be on the way to transport. That provides enough defence, if there are also lots of horses around.
And what are all these cavs doing on the middle continent?
I disagree, there are a very few cavs strategically positioned around in case of AIs landing. Imagine your rant if I lost an undefended city to this?

Forget the north for now and make more cavs. I'm sure we could have made 30-40 cavs more in the last 10 turns, if the last two drivers would have concentrated on this.
Leif may think I've got a connection with the RNG gods. Be that as it may, I haven't convinced the game into giving me cheaper units yet.

Staying in town is bad.
As well as putting all the cavs in armies. Don't make any more armies. The only use of armies is providing cover outside of the city for the cavs, which cannot make it back after they killed something in active defense or razed a city. Attacking with armies leads to them loosing hitpoints and they need much too long to recover.
I didn't say I was staying in town. In fact, I told Leif there was still a few units left to move. Like you stated yourself, though, armies need barracks-cities to heal.
I disagree on your use of armies. I could never have taken both the cities we wanted to take during my turns if I hadn't attacked with the armies. After we get more cavs over, it's a different scene, but not as I inherited the game.

And don't let the Aztecs settle again.
How?

And we cannot spare the ships for transporting artillery and it would be nonsense anyway. You need maybe 10 artillery pieces to make any impact on towns. Even if we would have the ships the transport would need several turns from town to town.
It's much better to loose cavs and just make enough new ones.
Maybe so in this case. What I usually do if I have to ferry arties around is that I move arties and ships into the recently captured town, load up the ships and dump arties off outside the next city. So you get this turn sequence:
1) Bombard and take city.
2) Move into city (need to be connected by road), load up ships, move and unload outside next city. Raze the first city if you choose.
Repeat.

There are some settlers slowly building in corrupt cities. That's coming from me. We will want some settlers on the other continent. But really we could have taken them off and used the existing settlers. As soon as a settler completes he should be transported over.
If you don't plan ahead you will never have a settler at hand, when you need one.
I can see the point of one or two strategic outposts. Anything more will just slow us down. We're not using combat settlers anyway cause we haven't got rails.

Don't rush horses. Just organise it right and we can produce more than we have gold to upgrade.
And again I posted somewhere above how to do it, connect and disconnect in the same turn with 6 workers. By that you can estimate the needed horses. Not more than one to three cities should ever produce cavs.
I don't disagree on this, but to set it up by taking workers off the useless tasks in the more peripher areas would take as long time as waiting for the close ones to finish.

In the next few turns every city will have to produce horses to get up to speed. I would recommend to change every cav build that doesn't complete in the next 3 turns to horses now, even if it wastes some shields. It's cheaper in the end.
I won't challenge you too hard on this one either, though I went with a bit more myself.

And another point about workers. Half of them, or so, do low priority or nonsense jobs.
On the other side there are Syracuse, Ravenna, Brundisium, Hippo Regius, Artaxta and Jerusalem, where a merged in worker could produce another 2-3 gold (3-4 if you consider support).
Especially I want to mention Ravenna. This city has an aqueduct since several turns. It could grow within 1 turn with a small MM action and then could be pumped up to size 11. This would give around 10 gpt more after corruption.
I wonder what important work they did during your turns since you didn't so this yourself.

And a final point to Leif, disband the cats before even starting. I should have done it already, but I walked them back to disband them for shields. They have used up 200 gold in the last 20 turns w/o giving any benefit.
Also look around to disband legions in towns, which could use the shields. Their time is over. If you have too much transport capacity in the next few turns you could also ship them over to serve as bait.
Did you see the RNG luck I had with Odessa? Imagine how that could have been with healthy units??? :lol:

I realize (and from your post before my turns, it looked like you had figured that out too) that I'm not as anal with MMing as the best players. I've never hid the fact that I'm not the greatest civ player in the world either. Maybe I just don't need to win as badly as others do.
I know this is a team effort but I feel like I pull my weight here and I sure don't feel like I'm sabotaging so why do you go all German on me?
(Apart from the obvious answer, that is).

I realize (and from your post before my turns, it looked like you had figured that out too) that I'm not as anal with MMing as the best players. I've never hid the fact that I'm not the greatest civ player in the world either.
I must admit that I did not spend too much time on MM. The Capt. had things pretty well set up for me, I only made some minor adjustments. Joining workers into cities and disbanding Cats and other less useful units, perhaps combined with battle losses :blush: , seemed to do the trick. I realized only this morning I made a mistake in selecting the saltpeter source near Pisae for disconnection because when we disconnect, we will destroy the mine there as well. OOoops!! Alan can fix it, I'm sure. :D

Thanks, Leif. That will go a long way towards making me forgive that you almost lost me my Cabin :)

Thanks, Leif. That will go a long way towards making me forgive that you almost lost me my Cabin :)
After a guy names a town in your honor, the least one could do is not lose his summer place?? At least I got it back, I thought they were going to raze it. Imagine how I would have felt then!! :blush: :blush:

I hope your painting goes well. :goodjob:

@Capt
I apologize, if it sounded as I didn't like your play at all.
The point I wanted to make in my post was that this is an extreme game and what sounds good in a normal leisurely played game, isn't as good here in the variant.
I could answer to several of the points you made, but I think we should stop the arguing here and I try hard to be nicer next time.

I've uploaded the 1250 AD save.

Here's a summary. I'll file the turn log tomorrow.

I took out three Aztec cities, including their capital with three wonders. Tenotchtitlan was expensive. It was on a hill, size 12, defended by 7 rifles. I used a stack of over 20 cavalry and suffered 10 losses, but we still have about the same number of cavalry as we had when I took the save. The third city I took I hoped would give us a clear path up the east coast, but the Aztec cultural borders still reach the coast :eek:. I also razed Seattle on the middle continent, and in the north, Atlanta, Philadelphia, and a new St Petersburg that popped up near Philadelphia.

There's a stack of a dozen wounded cavs from the Tenochtitlan campaign healing under an army near the current Aztec border, and another army is protecting a small stack within reach of another target town. I've just landed a new stack on the south west cape and there are newly upgraded cavalry waiting in the cities around Ravenna to load up next turn. Caravels can make a round trip every three turns, so I've tried to set up a steady shuttle service. There's a settler under two cavalry three tiles north of the landing point.

The rate of arrival of AI cavalry seems to have slowed during the last two IBTs. I had a wild couple of turns when they threw a dozen cavs at me between turns, and that was the cause of a lot of fatalities, from the initial attacks, some losses when countering them, and the aftermath of leaving units exposed having killed the attackers across a wide front. I'm afraid there are some units hung out to dry on the east coast of Azteca. The Japanese sent a couple of Samurai out that I dispatched, and the Indians are still pushing two or three cavs towards us each turn.

I've pillaged the Aztecs central source of saltpeter, but they still have a source at the south pole. We would need to isolate those tundra cities to dry up their cavalry supply.

A barb pillaged New Foundland and destroyed the stock of chields there on the last IBT, so we have a barb camp nearby. I've made over 100 gold from barb camps, and the budget is currently producing almost 450 gpt. I joined a few workers and rearranged things a little, with taxmen in a couple of the corrupt cities on rivers. We build 10 or 11 horses each turn, and I've been connecting and disconnecting the saltpeter each turn. I used the stack that leif left outside Pisae. I know we lose a couple of shields, but I didn't want to disrupt the flow of cavalry to the front by setting up a new worker gang on the saltpeter colony.

There's a Japanese musket and pike travelling north in the mountains on the middle island, and I've moved a couple of units to sqeeze them off the mountains so that our two new cavalry there can deal with them before leaving for the Aztec front line. There's a caravel waiting to ship these units west.

The German towns have started popping conscripts, so they are all below 7 now. I haven't moved on them yet, but have started to group on a hill outside Lepzig.

Here's the roster. Have fun Klarius.

Capt Buttkick
leif erikson
AlanH
Klarius UP
AdrianE On deck

Good luck, klarius :thumbsup:
Sorry if I overreacted. If you've got points to make, please make them. I'm open for suggestions. It was the wrapping I didn't like...

Looks like I will be up to some severe killing. :cool:
I got it and will start playing this evening.

EDIT:
:bday: Alan [party]

Turn 235 1200 AD Preflight
5/5 cav kills a German LB near Leipzig
Caravel with 2 cavs sitting off Ravenna has 2 movement left. move it west so it can land its cargo next turn.
Do some MMing to get to an extra couple of gpt.
Move the cannon to the hill overlooking Xechicalco. It might get a lucky shot on the musket. Everything else seems OK.

IBT
2 Indian cavs kill 2 cavs.
2 Iroquois cavs and an Aztec cav die attacking our cavs.
German rifle kills our cav. Should have attacked him first :(
Barb warrior dies
10 horses produced, Londinium completes courthouse. All set to cavs, but will change when saltpeter is unhooked.

Turn 236 1210 AD
Move new cavs to embarkation point.

In the north:
5/5 cav kills redlined German rifle
5/5 cav retreats from German 4/4 rifle -> 2/4
3/4 cav kills German 2/4 rifle -> 1/4
3/4 cav kills Russian LB
Troops move towards Atlanta

On Middleland:
5/5 cav kills spear in Seattle and razes it.

In Azteca:
4/4 cav kills Aztec 4/4 cav -> 2/4
4/4 cav kills Aztec 4/4 cav, promotes -> 3/5
4/4 cav kills Iroquois 4/4 cav, no damage
4/4 cav kills Aztec 4/4 cav, no damage
4/4 cav kills Indian sword, no damage

@Xochicalco:
5/5 cav kills 4/4 musket -> 2/5
Cannon knocks 1hp off 3/3 musket
5/5 cav kills 2/3 musket ->4/5, razes Xochicalco.
Easier than expected. I should have done it last turn.

4/4 cav kills Indian 4/4 cav -> 3/4
Move army plus 12 cav to hill near Tenchtitlan

Move horses to cities towards Ravenna and upgrade 9 for 450 gold
One horse pillages saltpeter near Pisae and all cavalry production is convered to horses.
join a couple of workers and move others towards cities that can either work more commerce tiles or support taxmen.

IBT
A big AI advance on Lauriacum
3 Japanese cavalry kill 3 of ours
6 Japanese and 4 Aztec cavalry approach Lauriacum
Aztecs land troops on Middleland
Barbs attack our troops and die

11 cities complete and start horses.

Turn 237 1220 AD
Big battles to push back the AI advance.
4/4 cav dies vs Japanese 4/4 cav -> 2/4
4/4 cav dies vs Japanese 2/4 cav -> 3/5
3/4 cav kills Japanese 3/5 cav -> 2/4
3/5 cav dies vs Aztec 4/4 cav -> 2/4
4/4 cav kills Aztec 4/4 cav -> 1/4
4/4 cav kills Aztec 4/4 cav -> 3/4
3/4 cav kills Japanese 4/4 cav. promotes -> 4/5
3/5 cav kills Japanese 4/4 cav -> 1/5
3/5 cav kills Japanese 1/4 cav, no damage
5/5 cav kills Japanese 4/4 cav -> 4/5
4/4 cav dies vs Japanese 4/4 cav -> 2/4
4/4 cav kills Japanese 2/4 cav, promotes -> 3/5
3/4 cav kills Japanese 4/4 cav -> 2/4
3/5 cav kills Aztec 4/4 cav -> 1/5
4/4 cav kills Aztec 4/4 cav, promotes, no damage
2/4 cav kills Aztec 2/4 cav -> 2/4
3/4 cav kills Japanese 2/4 cav -> 3/4
4/4 cav kills Japanese 2/4 cav -> 3/4

@Corfinium:
Aztecs landed a sword and a Jag warrior
5/5 cav kills Aztec sword -> 4/5
4/4 horse kills JW, no damage

5/5 cav takes out barb camp for 25 gold

@Atlanta:
5/5 cav kills 3/3 pike, no damage
5/5 cav kills 3/3 pike, no damage, Atlanta burns worker disbanded

4/4 cav kills German LB

Routine now for each turn:
Build saltpeter road
Move horses towards Ravenna and upgrade 11 horses (550 gold)
Pillage saltpeter road

Join workers to Jerusalem, Artaxata, Syracuse. Now on 414 gpt.

IBT
2 Indian cav kill 2 cav.
2 Iroquois cav kill 2 cav.
1 Iroquois cav dies
Russian settler pair appears
Russian musket pillages horse road at Teurni
Barb hrse dies

Cities prduce and start 9 horses.
Jerusalem riots! Forgot it doesn't have a market :(

Turn 238 1230 AD
Try an attack on Teochtitlan:
4/4 cav dies, redlines 4/4 rifle
4/4 cav retreats vs 3/3 rifle -> 2/3
4/5 cav retreats vs 3/3 rifle -> 2/3
4/5 cav dies, redlines 3/3 rifle
5/5 cav dies, promotes 3/3 rifle to 4/4
5/5 cav kills 4/4 rifle -> 4/5

We need a reinforcements for this one. Move a BIG stack under army cover to hill E, SE of city :eek:

In the open:
4/5 cav kills Indian 4/5 cav, no damage
4/4 cav kills Iroquos 4/4 cav -> 1/4
3/4 cav dies vs Indian 4/4 cav -> 2/4
3/5 cav dies vs Indian 3/4 cav -> 2/5
3/5 cav kills Iroquois 1/4 cav -> 3/5
4/4 cav dies vs Iroqquois 4/4 cav, no damage
3/4 cav dies vs 2/5 Indian cav

In the North:

@Philadelphia:
5/5 cav kills 3/3 pike -> 4/5
4/4 cav retreats vs 3/3 pike, no damage

4/4 cav kills Russian pillager musket -> 4/5

Join 2 workers to Nicomedia
Embark/transport/disembark cavalry
Connect/move/upgrade/pillage horses

Now earning 442 gpt.

IBT
Japanese land something on Middleland
2 Indian cavs die
2 Indian cavs kill ours
2 Iroquois cavs die
1 Iroquois cav kills
1 Aztec cav kills
Aztecs land cav near Lauriacum
German LB attack and dies
Russian settler builds a city near Philadelphia.
Barb horse dies

12 cities produce and start horses
Lauriacum completes walls.

Turn 239 1240 AD
@Lauriacum:
cannon knocks 1hp off Aztec cav
4/4 cav dies vs Aztec 3/4 cav -> 3/5
4/4 cav kills Aztec 3/5 cav, no damage

@Tenochtitlan:
4/4 cav kills Indian LB outside the city gates
4/4 cav dies vs 4/4 rifle -> 2/4
4/4 cav retreats vs 4/4 rifle -> 3/4
4/4 cav dies vs 3/3 rifle -> 2/3
4/4 cav retreats vs 3/3 rifle -> 2/3
4/4 cav kills 3/3 rifle -> 2/4
4/4 cav retreats vs 3/3 rifle no damage
4/4 cav dies vs 3/3 rifle -> 2/3
4/4 cav dies vs 3/4 rifle -> 3/5
4/4 cav retreats vs 3/4 rifle -> 3/5
4/4 cav kills 2/3 rifle, no damage
4/4 cav dies vs 2/3 rifle -> 2/4
4/4 cav dies vs 2/3 rifle -> 3/4
4/4 cav kills 3/4 rifle -> 2/4
4/4 cav retreats vs 2/4 rifle -> 2/4
4/4 cav dies vs 2/4 rifle -> 2/5
4/4 cav kills 2/4 rifle -> 1/4
4/4 cav kills 2/5 rifle -> 1/4
4/4 cav retreats vs 2/5 rifle -> 2/5
4/4 cav kills 2/5 rifle -> 1/4
Rifles all gone, but the Lone ranger rides again ...
4/4 cav dies vs 4/4 cav -> 4/5
4/4 cav dies vs 4/5 cav -> 2/5
4/4 cav dies vs 2/5 cav -> 1/5
1/5 cav kills 1/5 cav -> 3/5, razes Tenochtitlan, disband 6 workers

In the open:
4/4 cav kills Aztec 4/4 cav -> 2/5
4/4 cav kills Iroquois 1/4 cav, promotes -> 5/5
4/4 cav kills Japanese samurai, promotes -> 3/5
2 x 4/4 cav kill 2 x Iroquois mounted warriors, no damage.
cav kills an Indian spear and disbands his settler.

Move an army to cover a stack of 7 cavs approaching Calixtlahuacan. Move the wounded cavs from the Tenochtitlan campaign with it for cover as they can't get to any other safe location right now. They can heal later.

Move a cavalry and army onto the Aztec saltpeter hill. Check F4. Damnit, they still have saltpeter. Check around and its under one of the south pole cities. We'll pillage it anyway, then if ew can disconnect the southern cities we may cut off their cavalry production.

@St Petersburg - Russian new city:
Cav retreats from musket -> 2/4
Cav kills 2/4 musket, razes St Petersburg, disbands 2 workers (a settler was landed from a galley, I think)

@Philadelphia:
2 Cavs kill a pike, one retreats and we raze Philadelphia

5/5 cav kills German 2/2 rifle - they are sending out conscripts. Lepzig and Konigsberg are down to pop 6

4/4 cav out of Gem City kills Russian LB and spots a barb camp.
5/5* cav kills Russian musket and disbands his settler.
Cav takes 25 gold from barb camp on Middleland.
Japanese landing is a musket and a pike on mountains. Maybe they are planning a pillage visit? We'll wait until they are an easier target.

Embark/transport/disembark cavalry
Connect/move/upgrade/pillage horses

Now at 445 gpt.

IBT
2 Japanese horses die
Japanese musket and pike move away from Corfinium :hmm:
3 Indian cavs kill
1 Iroquois cav dies
A barb horse appears and pillages New Foundland - sorry leif. Destroys the work done on its harbour.

8 horses complete.

Turn 240 1250 AD
Pillage the Aztec saltpeter.

@Calixtlahuacan:
4/4 cav kills 3/3 rifle -> 1/4
4/4 cav kills 3/3 rifle, no damage
4/4 cav retreats vs 3/3 rifle, no damage
4/4 cav dies vs 3/3 rifle -> 1/3
4/4 cav kills 1/3 rifle, promotes -> 3/5 , [color=red]razes Calixtlahuacan[/quote], disbands 5 workers

4/4 cav kills 2/4 Indian cav -> 4/5
4/4 cav dies vs 3/4 Indian cav -> 2/5
4/4 cav dies vs 2/5 Indian cav -> 1/5
4/5 cav kills 1/5 Indian cav -> 4/5
4/4 cav dies vs 4/4 Samurai -> 1/4
4/4 cav dies vs 3/3 Samurai -> 1/3
2/4 cav kills 1/3 Samurai -> 2/4
2/4 cav kills 1/4 Samurai -> 3/5
5/5 cav kills Indian 1/4 cav

Cav raids barb camp on Middleland for 25 gold

@Chicago: cav kills pike

Embark/transport/disembark cavalry
Connect/move/upgrade/pillage horses

My after-action report is already posted above.

Well done, Alan :)
And happy birthday [party] :bday:

:band:Looks like you enjoyed a little destruction on the day before your :bday:

A little :beer: for a job well done :goodjob:

:salute: We still have a lot of :hammer: to do!!

Is the Jason best date for Conquest 1150 AD while for Domination 920 AD? I was a little confused by the write up on the calculator page, or have missed something?? :crazyeye:

Good luck Klarius, give 'em hell!! ;)

:lol:
That's a lot of smilies :D

The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Xteam_SG003_AD1275_01.SAV)

Summary:
Made slowly bud steady progress in the other continent.
Removed Americans and Russians.

Preflight:
Shuffle around some MM a bit. Not much to do, it's just a bad habit.
Look for the barbs near New Foundland. Find another horse, but no camp yet.
Hurry a worker in Lauriacum. Hopefully he will get us a Ivory colony in my turnset.
Pillage a food tile at Leipzig. There was still movement left on a cav.
Move a few units on middle continent.
Disconnect the salt.

IBT:
Loose all the yellow cavs in Aztecland. A lot cavs from everybody around.
Japan lands a Sam at Augustadorum. Will loose the city next turn, retake it the turn after.
Some BHs get good RNG against a cav on a mountain and take 2 HP off.
Everywhere horse->horse

Turn 1:
Connect the salt and upgrade. Load available cavs.
Raze Chicago, so long Abe.
Have some bad RNG on cav cleanup operation in Aztec.
First small assault on Tlatelolco. There are four vet rifles. Will come with a big stack next turn.
Kill the Japs on middle continent.

IBT:
As usual a lot cavs move. Loose some yellows. Japs take Augustadorum.

Turn 2:
Fail to retake Augustadorum. Damn RNG.
Raze Tlatelolco, loose 4 cavs.
Loose two cavs on a cav in the open, when cleaning up.
Settle Curia.
Setup for Tamuin.
Pillage a little around Teotihuacan

IBT:
Iroquois are coming with many cavs. Loose several.
Japs come with Samurai, also loose a cav there.
Germans move a rifle out of Berlin. Nice when they start this nonsense.
Some more moves. Some Barbs move.
Japs are building Universal Suffrage.

Turn 3:
Retake Augustadorum, killing a Sam and sinking a Galleon.
Raze Moscow and Kiev. See ya, Cathy.
Kill a German Rifle. Get a leader, have no idea what to do with him.
Raze Tlatelolco.
Move towards Malinalco and Iroquois land.

IBT:
Several wounded cavs all over former Aztecland die to cavs and Samurai.
Germany land 2 rifles next to Capt. Cabin

Turn 4:
Kill the German rifles.
Raze Malinalco.
Leader makes a one cav army.
Kill all that's killable.
Head a force towards Iroland.

IBT:
India sends Cavs.
Japan comes with a lot of stuff including LBs and archers. Lost some cavs as usual.
They get my worker for the ivory colony together with it's small guarding stack.

Germany comes now with LBs and rifles and they also get a cav.

Turn 5:
I have to pull back some of the cavs underway to Iroland to handle all the indian and japanese garbage around.
These cruel japs disbanded my worker. Ivory has to wait.

I raze Teotihuacan.
But I had to use quite a few HP of an army for the last two conscripts.

Raze Nuremburg. No more furs for Otto.

Outlook:

The war should continue with emphasisis to get into Iroquois and later Indian territory.

Lately the attackers are mostly Indians and Japanese. Japan was coming with a lot of slow units, so I conclude we are now nearly over their stocked forces and we now have to face "only" what they can build new.

In Aztecland I would look to cut the road between the south and the capital.
I already begun. There is just a choke with a one tile road left, which should be pillaged. This will cut saltpeter and gems from the capital.

In one of the caravels is a settler together with two cavs. This should not unload at the nearest point as the others, but deliver the settler directly to somewhere in Iroquois territory. At the same time the land forces should clean this area.

Good luck!

In Germany I would continue to only work slowly with the few units already there. I would do a small expedition to Cologne next.
We have 121 cavs, five more than when I started.
But I did build around 50. We need the production by upgrading horses to fuel this heavy warfare.

More progress, :goodjob: Klarius.

It is a tough fight as we continue although I hope we are wearing them down. AT the current rate, we might finish in 25 to 30 turns. Any ideas how we can speed it up?

If it matters, I was looking through the save and the Barb Horseman on the penninsula over by the former German territory has a name, "wasinabronken", whatever that might mean or refer to??? :confused:

If we continue to produce cavs at this rate and concentrate on getting a free corridor all the way up to Japan, it will speed up.
The Aztecs where by far the strongest when we started on the other continent. Now we have razed more than half of their cities and taken away most of their good land.
I hope the others will be a bit easier.
The counters, which cost us the most cavs, should slow down, especially when we get into the land of the other civs.
We could try a naval operation against Japan, to make a two front war for the AIs, which confuses them. But we shouldn't bind to much forces for that.
Note also that at some time in the near future we may also loose some ships. The AI has steam and will build some ironclads soon.

The name is Wasinabronken, which would mean take the "W". But we have no chance at the puzzle anyways. We where much to late on the middle continent to find many of these letters.

Good progress Klarius. I guess the rate of attrition is exponential as we wear the opposition capacity down, so hopefully we should accelerate.

Capt Buttkick On deck
leif erikson
AlanH
Klarius
AdrianE UP

Good luck AdrianE :ar15:

OK I have it

Adrian

Good luck Adrian!! :hammer:

Break their backs... :goodjob:

Sorry guys. It doesn't look like I'll be able to fit this game into my schedule any time soon. I'll have to ask for a skip.

Adrian

My earliest opening is 48 hours from now (saturday morning), so if someone else wants to play it, please go ahead.

Capt Buttkick UP will play in 48 hours
leif erikson On deck
AlanH
Klarius
AdrianE asked for a skip

@Leif: We can swap you and the Captain if you want to put in a quick 5 turns before the weekend?

@Leif: We can swap you and the Captain if you want to put in a quick 5 turns before the weekend?
OK then, I've got it and will play it this evening. I understand the plan is to keep pounding up the east side of the "other" continent to create a no boundary zone to allow us freedom of movement. :rockon: Should also try to separate some civs from resources where it is possible without losing the Armies. :eek: ;)

On our continent, in our cores, keep those horsemen coming and get them upgraded to Cavs and shipped to the other continent. Take out some German cities where it is possible. :mischief:

I'll go back and read Klarius' log and summary, he had a lot of good info there. I know there is a settler enroute aboard a caravel and some instructions for placement. Anything else?? :thumbsup:

@Leif
You summarized it well. :goodjob:
I think St. Regis can fall on the first turn. There are 8 cavs that can reach it. Don't use these for counters, attack the town. Only if some defenders are left, use the armies. After that you can go for the counters with units out of Curia.
Mauch Chunk should fall on turn 3 hopefully (turn 2 would be even better, but you will probably not get enough troops there in time).
The ship with the settler should either go to the Mauch Chunk area, or even to Bengal, if the progress is good.

I had the idea to disconnect the road between Tula and Texcoco, but looking again on our forces in that region, it looks like we may have to heal a little first.

Note Aztec is now communist, they will draft and pop rush like crazy.
Expect a lot of conscript rifles. They are not very tough, but the numbers call for big stacks to deal with them.

To concentrate our minds, by 1435 AD at the latest, 27 turns from now, we have to have eliminated all the civs from the face of the planet. This is based on the reasonable assumption that Smackster finished with a domination victory in 1300 AD, and the Jason date for conquest is 24 turns later than the domination date. 1435 AD is 23 turns after 1300 AD. We should, of course, try to better 27 turns, as others will no doubt also be racing that deadline. Putting this into a simple context it means destroying at least 2 cities per turn as there are 56 AI cities left. As we are currently running at a fraction of this rate we need to raise our game. Hopefully the flatter ground after we take St Regis will allow our cavalry to move more freely in the Iroquois territory.

Should also try to separate some civs from resources where it is possible without losing the Armies We have a southern force of healing troops under an army. That group could move to cut off the Aztec gems and saltpeter, and destroy the southern Aztec cities along the way. They can then move on to mop up the southern Iroquois cities via Tonawanda.

Note Aztec is now communist, they will draft and pop rush like crazy.
Expect a lot of conscript rifles. They are not very tough, but the numbers call for big stacks to deal with them.
I noticed that as well. I HATE conscript rifles. :cry: I usually redline them with the first Cav, the second one loses and the rifle promotes, and a couple a Cavs later, I kill it. They drive me nuts!! But I'll manage... :rolleyes:

Perhaps we should treat the southern area of Azteca much as we have the northern area of our continent. We should continue to move on the area to divide the Aztecs and deprive them of resources where we can. Then mop up their southern cities as we have the forces. The main thrust, I think, is to get a corrider to insure our ability to manuever. Then we can strike where we choose.

I noticed that the Iroquois have two sources of Saltpeter and three of Horses. Don't think we can do much to cut them off. India has one source of Horses near Bombay, Saltpeter is in their home city radius. Looks like some tough going and a lot of counterattacks. :eek:

Sally forth ye brave Roman citizens as fate awaits thee. :crazyeye:

Good luck and good hunting Leif :D

We probably should have a discussion on where we go from here. I have included the basis for it just before the After Action Report at the bottom of the turn log. The corridor is open all the way to India now. But I don't think we can sustain war in three directions, so we should decide how to proceed. I did not move any combat units on the other continent in my last turn because I didn't want to force a strategy on the team. Where these units go will determine what the next palyer is pretty much going to have to do.

Pre-flight - Turn 245
Vet Cav in Luriacum joins other Cav stack near the Southern Army.
That should be it, press enter.

IBT
More Japanese Cavalry show up around
The Indians request another audience, they want peace badly, offering 27 Gold plus 2 GPT. I laugh at their weakness!!
We lose 1 Cav around Curia to a Vet Iroquois Cav, he suffers no loss.
We lose 2 Cavs in our Southern force, not under the Army, via Iroquois Vet Cavs and they lose 1 HP between them. My RNG luck begins early, hope it doesn't last.
Rome Horse --> Horse.
Londinium Horse --> Horse.
Veii Horse --> Horse.
Sirmium Horse --> Horse.
Antium Horse --> Horse.
Neapolis Horse --> Horse.
nicomedia Horse --> Horse.
Pompeii Horse --> Horse.
Ravenna Horse --> Horse.
Hispalis Horse --> Horse.
Viroconium Horse --> Horse.
Lutetia Horse --> Horse.
Brundisium Horse --> Horse.
Gonzomonium Horse --> Horse.
Lauriacum Worker --> Wokrer.
We are notified that the Germans are building Universal Sufferage. They have Industrialization. How far away can Infantry be??

Turn 246 - 1280
Around Curia, Cannon bombards Vet Iroquois Cav, remove 1 HP.
Take a Cav from the landing area and attack the 3/4 Iroquois Cav, kill him with no damage.

At St. Regis.
4/4 Cav attacks 4/4 Rifle, dies inflicting 1 HP.
4/4 Cav attacks 3/4 Rifle, kills rifle, now 3/4.
4/4 Cav attacks 4/4 Musket, retreats no damage to musket??
4/4 Cav attacks 4/4 Musket, kills him redlining.
4/4 Cav attacks 3/3 Musket, kills him losing 1 HP, St. Regis is razed, 0 Gold and 5 workers are disbanded.
In the area remain 4 Japanese 4/4 Cavs and one 4/4 Iroquois Cav.
From Curia, 4/4 cav attacks Iroquois 4/4 Cav, we lose, no loss to Iroq.
Same thing and we lose again, take 1 HP but the Iroq. Cav promotes.
Same thing but we defeat the Cav, losing 1 HP.
From Curia, 4/4 Cav attacks Japanese 4/4 Cav, kill him losing 2 HP and promotes.
From Curia, 4/4 Cav attacks Japanese 4/4 Cav, kill him redlining.
From Curia, 4/4 cav attacks Japanese 4/4 Cav, kill him losing 1 HP and promotes.
from Curia, 4/4 Cav attacks japanese 4/4 Cav, kill him losing 1 HP.
The way is now open for Mauch Chunk.

Around the Southern Army.
4/5 Cav attacks an Iroquois 4/4 Cav, defeats him losing 2 HP and Hadrian exerts himself. He is asking where he can build a wall.
Hadrian heads back to Lauriacum.
From Curia, 4/4 Cav attacks Iroquois 4/4 cav, dies inflicting 1 HP damage.
From Curia, 4/4 Cav attacks 3/4 cav, kills him without loss.

Using the J key, Thanks Alan!!, move the Cav stack forward from the landing area to a point near Curia.
Move worker from Lauriacum towards Curia via the back roads, heading for the ivory and a colony, I hope!!

Reconnect Saltpeter.
Upgrade horses. Ran out of gold, more next turn.
Destroy Barb camp for 25 Gold.

Move into assualt positions for Konigsberg.
5/5 Legion attacks 4/4 LB, kills him but redlines.
Diusconnect Saltpeter.

IBT
Lose 4 Cavs to counterattacks, defeat 2 enemy Cavs and one of ours retreats from a rifle. 2 Cav losses and the retreat is in the Southern Army area.
On our continent, we lose a Legion to a German 4/4 Rifle.
Seleucia Horse --> Horse.
Jerusalem Horse --> Horse.
Cumae Horse --> Horse.
Pisae Horse --> Horse.
LgdunumHorse --> Horse.
Artaxata Horse --> Horse.
Aurelianorum Horse --> Horse.
Agrippina Horse --> Horse.


Turn 247 - 1285 AD
Activate Hadrian and create another Army. Load 1 4/4 Cav into the Army and move it towards Curia.
Attack on Mauch Chunk.
4/4 Cav attacks 3/3 Rifle, kills him losing 1 HP.
4/4 Cav attacks 3/3 Rifle, kills him losing 2 HP.
4/5 Cav attacks 3/3 Rifle, kills him redlining.
5/5 Cav attacks 1/4 Cav, kills him without loss and takes and razes the city, 0 Gold and disband 7 workers.

Cleaning up enemy units that counterattacked us near Mauch Chunk.
4/4 Cav attacks Iroquois 3/4 Musket, dies inflicting 1 HP.
4/4 Cav attacks 2/4 Musket, kills him losing 1 HP.
4/4 Cav attacks Japanese 3/5 Cav, kills him losing 1 HP.

From Curia, 4/4 Cav attacks Indian 2/5 Cav, kills him but redlines, and then promotes.
Move Cav stack up near former Maunch Chunk area.

Move into forest next to Konigsberg.

Land 19 Cavs and 1 worker on enemy continent.

Destroy a Barb Camp for 25 Gold.

Connect Saltpeter, upgrade horses.
Disconnect Saltpeter.

IBT
We lose 4 Cavs to counterattacks (3 Iroquois Cav and 1 Indian Cav), doing little damage, and we defeat 1 enemy cav (Indian). 2 attacks in the south and 3 in the north.
The Aztecs land 2 4/4 Cavs near Lauriacum.
Rome Horse --> Horse.
Veii Horse --> Horse.
Verona Horse --> Horse.
Antium Horse --> Horse.
Neapolis Horse --> Horse.
Nicomedia Horse --> Horse.
Pompeii Horse --> Horse.
Hispalis Horse --> Horse.
Viroconium Horse --> Horse.
Palmyra Horse --> Horse.
Eburacum Horse --> Horse.
Arretium Horse --> Horse.

Turn 248 - 1290 AD
Around Lauriacum
5/5 Cav attacks Aztec 4/4 Cav, kills him losing 1 HP.
5/5 Cav attacks Aztec 4/4 Cav, kills him losing 1 HP.

Move a stack of 19 Cavs forward to Curia, using the J key!!

Near former maunch Chunk site, cleaning up enemy Cavs that Counterattacked.
4/4 Cav attacks Iroquois 4/5 Cav, kills him without loss.
4/4 Cav attacks Iroquois 1/4 Cav, kills him oosing 1 HP.

Attack on Akwesane.
4/4 Cav attacks 4/4 Rifle, dies inflicting 2 HP loss.
4/4 Cav attacks 4/4 Musket, dies inflicting 1 HP loss.
4/4 Cav attacks 3/3 Musket, kills him losing 2 HP.
4/4 cav attacks 3/4 Musket, dies in vain, no loss.
4/4 cav attacks 4/5 Musket, dies in vain, no loss.
4/4 Cav attacks 4/5 Musket, dies redlining the Musket.
4/4 Cav attacks 2/4 Rifle, kills him and redlines.
4/4 Cav attacks 1/5 Musket, kills him, no loss, Akwesne is razed, no Gold and 3 workers are disbanded.

Make a move towards Allegheny and find a Japanese 4/4 Rifle in the way, so, naturally, we attack.
4/4 Cav attacks Japanese 4/4 Rifle, kill him without loss.
Now we are setup for an attack on Allegheny next turn.

Assualt on Konigsberg.
4/4 Cav attacks 4/4 Rifle, retreats after taking 1 HP.
5/5 Cav attacks 4/4 Rifle, kills him losing 2 HP and we have another leader, Maximus.
4/5 Cav attacks 3/4 Rifle, dies, redlined Rifle.
4/5 Cav attacks 1/4 Rifle, dies and Rifle promotes!!
5/5 Cav attacks 2/5 Rifle, kills him, collects 8 Gold, razes city and disbands 1 worker.

Unload 9 Cavs.

See a Barb named "Spaler"
Attack and kill Spaler for 25 Gold.

Connect the Saltpeter. Upgrade horses. Load Cavs into Caravels.
Disconnect Saltpeter.
Just checked and the Iroquois' are still in democracy.

IBT
A 5/5 Indian Cav makes it all the way to our landing area and kills a Cav without loss, of course.
A 4/4 Indian Cav attacks a remnant 2/4 Cav of Akwesane and kills him without loss.
Some barb action, no losses for us.
Jerusalem Horse --> Horse.
Mediolanum Horse --> Horse.
lugdunum Horse --> Horse.
Lutetia Horse --> Horse.
Artaxata Horse --> Horse.
Tyrus Horse --> Horse.
Gonzomonium Horse --> Horse.
Corfinium Horse --> Horse.
Trapezus Horse --> Horse.

Turn 429 - 1295 AD
Mauch Chunk has been reestablished near Curia, so we attack.
4/4 Cav attacks 3/3 Rifle, dies taking 2 HP, but unit promotes.
4/4 Cav attacks 3/4 Rifle, dies, no loss for Rifle.
4/4 Cav attacks 3/4 Rifle, dies, no loss, Rifle promotes.
I just figured out that the city is on a hill.
4/4 Cav attacks 4/5 Rifle, dies but takes 2 HP.
4/4 Cav attacks 2/5 Rifle, kills rifle losing 1 HP, razes city, no gold. There is an Iroquois 3/3 Spear on the hill next to the city site. 4/4 Cav attacks 3/3 Spear, kills him losing 1 HP.
4/4 Cav attacks 2/4 Iroquois Cav, kills him losing 1 HP.
4/4 Cav attacks 4/4 Iroquois Cav near Tlacopan, kills him redlining.

Attack of Allegheny.
4/4 Cav attacks 4/4 Rifle, retreats taking 1 HP.
4/4 Cav attacks 3/4 Rifle, retreat taking another HP.
4/4 cav attacks 3/3 Musket, dies redlining the Musket.
4/4 Cav attacks 3/3 Musket, kills him losing 2 HP.
4/4 Cav attacks 2/4 Rifle, dies redlining the Rifle.
4/4 Cav attacks 1/4 Rifle, kills him losing 1 HP.
4/4 Cav attacks 1/3 Musket, kills him, razes Allegheny, 0 Gold, and disbands 5 workers.

Attack of Bengal.
4/4 Cav attacks 3/3 Indian Cav, kills him losing 1 HP.
5/5 Cav attacks 3/3 Indian Spear,kills him without loss.
4/4 Cav attacks 3/3 Indian Spear, kills him without loss, destroys an ironclad and a galley. liberates 13 Gld, razes the city and disbands 2 workers.

North of Salamanca.
4/4 Cav attacks Indian 4/4 Cav, kills him losing 1 HP, moves east to road.
4/4 Cav attacks Japanese 4/4 Rifle, dies redlining the Rifle.
4/4 Cav attacks Japanese 1/4 Rfle, kills him losing 1 HP.

Near Lauriacum.
4/4 Cav attacks Aztec 4/4 Rifle, retreats after taking 2 HP.
4/4 cav attacks Aztec 2/4 Rifle, kills him losing 1 HP.

Move Cav stack near Curia forward towards Indian borders.
Moving a worker forward, an Iroquois 4/4 Cav is spotted south of Curia on the wine hills, so we attack.
4/4 Cav attacks Indian 5/5 Cav, kills him losing 2 HP.
4/4 cav attacks Iroquois 4/4 Cav, kills him losing 2 HP.

Move a stack of 7 Cavs from the landing site to Curia.
Land 11 Cavs at landing site.

Connect Saltpeter and upgrade horses, move and load Cavs into Caravels.
Disconnect Saltpeter.

IBT
In counterattacks, our 5/5 Cav kils a japanese Cav and then an Indian cav kills him.
We lose 2 more Cavs to Iroquois Cav around Curia.
Indians react to our destroying Bengal by moving forces into view.
A Japanese naval force of 3 Ironclads and a Galleon are moving south along the middle continent, next driver beware
Rome Horse --> Horse.
Veii Horse --> Horse.
Antium Horse --> Horse.
Nicopolis Horse --> Horse.
Cumae Horse --> Horse.
Treveri Horse --> Horse.
Neapolis Horse --> Horse.
Nicomedia Horse --> Horse.
Pompeii Horse --> Horse.
Pisae Horse --> Horse.
Ravenna horse --> Horse.
Hispalis Horse --> Horse.
Viroconium Horse --> Horse.
Brundisium Horse --> Horse.
Lunacantorium Horse --> Horse.
Caesaragustus worker --> Worker.

Turn 430 AD
Moved the Caravel with the settler in it north of Curia and saw a Japanese Ironclad located 2 to 3 squares to the north in the fog, beware.

Near the Indian border.
5/5 Cav attacks 3/3 Cav guarding a settler, kills him losing 1 HP and the workers are disbanded. The 4/5 Cav is moved into the stack covered by the Army.
3/4 Cav attacks 4/4 Cav guarding a settler, dies taking 1 HP.

In the north of our continent.
5/5 Cav attacks Indian 3/3 Sword covering a settler, kill him, losing 3 HP and disbanding the workers. The wounded Cav moves nder the cover of the Legion Army.

Connect Saltpeter, upgrade horses, move and load Cavs.
Disconnect Saltpeter.

The administrative movements and upgrades are completed. The units on the other continent have not been moved yet. I think we need to have a discussion on what we want to do next. I see three options.
1. Push strongly into India and deal with the Aztecs and Iroquois as we can.
2. Push into India but alocate resources to deal with either the Aztecs or the iroquois.
3. Hold in the north and deal the death blows to the Aztecs and Iroquois.

The southern areas are wide open and the Iroquois have planted a new city that had to be eliminated. There are hardly enough units to fight it out up north and keep the Aztecs and Iroquois at bay. The terrain forms a nice choke point where our forces at now up north. So now it depends upon our objectives. To hurt India and Japan will hurt their ability to produce units. Can this be done through active defense in the north while we work to eliminate the southern civs?

Once this is discussed, then the next player can move the forces accordingly.

After Acton Report.
We have destroyed St Regis, Mauch Chunk (twice), Akwesane, Allegheny, Bengal, and Konigsberg. We have 130 Cavs and 14 Horses waiting for gold to upgrade them. A leader, named Maximus, is located in the north near where Konigsberg used to be. I wasn't sure what to do with him?? We are now sarting to produce more horsemen than we can upgrade each turn because of unit maintenance.

Tactically, my first attack in India was met by Cavs and Spears. We maybe able to make a quick impression on the Indians, but the terrain opens up, requiring more cavs. The conterattacks have slowed to between 3 and 5 an interturn. We need to keep our cities in the south covered as they can still both be reached by enemy Cavs.

The Japanese are up to something. I moved a Cav, about 10 squares north of Corfinium, to observe a Japanese Ironclad. There is another ironclad and a Galleon about somewhere near. Also, the Japanese have built a city in the old English area and the Indians have landed some units there as well.

Our current Firaxis score is 1955.
Save will be posted momentarily. Good luck, Capt.? :D

Edit - << The Save >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Xteam_SG003_AD1300_01.SAV)

Looks good :goodjob:
As for strategy, I think our first goal is push as fast as we can to Japan. Hurt the Indians badly on the way.
We should press for Calcutta and Bombay, while waiting for the settler in the ship go to Lahore and provide the missing road segment there by settling SW-SW or SW-W of Lahore.

Still we need a 5-6 front war. We have to progress towards the barren areas of Aztec, Iroqouis and India while we push towards Japan.

Several small stacks should be used and wounded cavs should fight also. Don't try to cover every cav, just loose some.

In the north of our continent we need some patrols moving around all the time, so that Japan is not settling again. And BTW these pesky Jap cities have to go before they grow and can draft.

Still nothing urgent in Germany, but I think we should really go for Cologne now (Frankfurt can come first), before we have to hurry this action in the end.

Still we need a 5-6 front war. We have to progress towards the barren areas of Aztec, Iroqouis and India while we push towards Japan.
We can do this but I think it will slow our rate of city destruction as it now requires 2-3 turns to get Cavs up "to the front". Although that depends upon what units we will meet in India. If we can presevre our strength in Cavs up north, not requiring so many replacements, it will help.
Several small stacks should be used and wounded cavs should fight also. Don't try to cover every cav, just loose some.
You don't have to worry about losing a few. I started with 121 and only had 130 5 turns later. I had to have averaged creating 9 per turn, based upon gold supply. This would mean that I lost 34 or so in 5 turns. Its a blood bath. However, I agree that speed is of the essence. If India is behind in upgrading units, we have to hit them hard before they can produce more Rifles. But we also need to watch the areas already conquered. The Iroquois rebuilt Mauch Chunk on a hill with a single Rifle defending and it ocst us 3 Cav, iirc. We can't afford too many of these city rebuilds, nor can we easily keep too many Cavs on patrol because when they are singly out there, they will get attacked by enemy Cvas and beaten.
In the north of our continent we need some patrols moving around all the time, so that Japan is not settling again. And BTW these pesky Jap cities have to go before they grow and can draft.
I would have destrpyed the Japanese city but ran into an Indian Sword and settler and chose to get them first. Of course the Sword took a bunch of HP from the Cav!! Same old RNG. :cry:
We now have sufficient extra horses around our core. The northern cities could spare some production in horses to head up north. The destruction of Germany may require an additional Cav or 2. I think there are some free ones up there that we can use.

Well played leif. :goodjob: Your rate of city destruction is over one per turn, so that's excellent progress. It may have felt like a slog, but it represents a real turning point.

Capt Buttkick UP
leif erikson Just played
AlanH On deck
Klarius
AdrianE

I think the stack in the south should continue west to take out another Aztec city and then move into Iroquois. We should try to reduce the number of road routes around the area as we go. We need a single supply route for each of our fronts, but if we can cut off the paths back into our wastelands it should reduce the options for raiding parties. A few cavalry doing this could reduce the attrition rate.

Well played leif. :goodjob:
Agreed on the :goodjob: I think Leif made very good progress.

We should try to reduce the number of road routes around the area as we go. We need a single supply route for each of our fronts, but if we can cut off the paths back into our wastelands it should reduce the options for raiding parties. A few cavalry doing this could reduce the attrition rate.
Could you explain this some more, please? I'm not sure I understood what I am to do here. Pillage all roads but one "highway" into each AI civ?

The problem, I think, is the flow of resources to the civs and the flow of their units out of their territories. The AI now have the ability to attack us anywhere along our "corridor" because of the road system they have set up. The area we have cleared is uncontrolled, so anyone can use the movement bonus the roads allow. I think Alan's point is to slow down the AI by selectively pillaging roads so that their Cavs will have to use more movement points while retaining our ability to move quickly on "our highway".

Of course the best way to do this is to eliminate the civs, but that isn't going to happen soon.

Ihavebeen thinking about Klarius' idea that we need to have 5 to 6 fronts. There is merit to this. If we can take some cities from the northern civs and cause their democracy to crash, we have a good opportunity tosmack 'em good. I have been looking at the map and propose a list of cities to raze.

Aztecs.
Tula and Tlacopan (on a hill) are primary because of the road nets they hold the keys to.
Iroquois.
Grand River (on a hill) and Niagra Falls (on a hill). Each of these cities has horses and saltpeter in their radius. Taking them could stop the flow of Cavs for the Iroquois.
India.
Calcutta and Bombay and then on to Delhi, although Delhi is going to be a tough nut as it is on a hill.
japan is pretty wide open and we will need to do some serious damage to India to get there. The east coast of India is mountainous and has jungles, and only one roads through.

I think you wil have enough cavs to take on most of those cities during your time.
BTW - I am not sure what to do with that leader way out in the boonies. He is useless out there and we may have to dump him so we have the possibility to get a leader where he will do some good. There are Caravels near to carry him away, that is the only other possibility I can think of.

Good luck and keep that magic RNG happy!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Still we need a 5-6 front war. We have to progress towards the barren areas of Aztec, Iroqouis and India while we push towards Japan.

Several small stacks should be used and wounded cavs should fight also. Don't try to cover every cav, just loose some.


I absolutely 100% totally disagree with these two statements. Concentration of force leads to quick victory. That seems like a fundamentally obvious principle of war. To ignore it leads to defeat. We need to chose a single primary objective (like eliminate Aztecs) and drive towards it.

Wounded Cavs should only be used in combat if desperate (kill the last 1HP defender in a city). There is no sense to risking a wounded cav when it takes 8 to 10 turns to replace him. That is just bad play. Units are precious and we should not waste them. The last AI's will likely have infantry and we will need every last cav then.

It takes 2 to 3 turns to build a horse in our best cities. Then 1 turn to upgrade him. Then 1 or 2 turns to get to the coast. Then 2 turns to get across the ocean. Then 2 turns to get to the front lines. That is 8 to 10 turns. It takes 3 turns to heal a wounded cav. Plus it doesn't cost 50 G in upgrade costs.

My turn to rant:

In my opinion, our progress has been slower in Aztec lands with a cav only approach than a combined arms approach would have been. In the 20 turns since I landed we only razed 6 or 7 Aztec cities and its cost us over 50 cav to do so. In retrospect I believe we would have accomplished the same thing with 40 cannons, covered by legion armies (with cavalry for attacking) at a much much lower cost. Our attacks would lose fewer units because of cannon fire. When attacked by the enemy they would take a hit first more often (defensive cannon fire) and our defensive losses would be lower. We could be at the same place with an extra 20 to 30 cavalry because we would not have lost them. Keep that in mind for future games.

Just because klarius posts prolifically, doesn't mean his strategy is always the best. IMO he has been bullying the team into following a specific path and drowning out dissenting voices.

Note that the cav only approach was sold to us as guarenteeing a victory by 1300AD. That date has come and passed and we are not even close. It is time to rethink.

I think we should start rushing cannons on the new continent. We need to build a stack of about 20 minimum. These should be protected by a musketmen (riflemen ideally - yes that means researching nationalism) army. They get 15 to 20 cav for their offensive punch. They get sent to deal with the tough targets (size 12 cities). We get outlying battle groups of a cav army with another 15 to 20 cav to take down weaker cities and deal with raiders.
All wounded units get cycled back to a city with a barracks to heal. We need to concentrate our forces and raze cities in a methodical manner. Don't give the AI's shots at wounded units. We need to get our losses down and build a true juggernaut to take out the other cities.

I believe that we will miss our targetted victory date with the current approach. It won't be long before the AI's get infantry and then cav only will really slow to a crawl. However it may be too late to switch to get the laurel.

We might also want to consider a settler carpet to grab a domination win. If the AI's get infantry soon we may have to switch to this victory type.

Like I stated pretty early, I've got very good experience with arties on higher difficulties as well. I agree we should have gone with the arty approach. However, at this time, I feel we're too far ahead to switch to arty mode.
I haven't played it yet and I think we should debate this further. We need to come up with something or we won't reach conquest in time.

@Adrian - While I can understand your frustration, I can not say which is the better method because I have never played it the way you describe. Therefore, I will not comment on "the best method". Nor do I intend to defend Klarius, although I happen to agree with our current approach.

First, the facts. I went back to 1100 AD, which is the turn you finished in which you landed on the Aztec continent. At that save, we had 21 Horsemen and 66 Cav. At the end of my recent turn, which does not include a combat phase on the other continent because I stopped to ask about strategy, we have 14 Horsemen and 130 Cav.

During the intervening turns, we have razed 16 cities, 14 cities that were in existence and 2 that the AI rebuilt during our time there. 9 Aztec major cities, including their capital, and 1 rebuild, 3 major, 1 minor and 1 rebuilt Iroquois cities, and a smaller Indian city have been razed.

While accomplishing this, we have managed to raise our cav strength from 66 to 130, and we probably have lost between 75 and 100 cav units in the process. My estimates are that, during my turn set of 5 turns, we produced 59 Horsemen, upgrading about 45 to 48 to Cavs (I counted the horsemen in the log but did not keep exact numbers of upgrades to Cav, we were making about 450 GPT which is 9 Cavs per turn).

As I move to opinions, I just want to say, as if it isn't obvious, that we have very different play styles and how one uses and manuevers units has a great deal to do with style. The beauty of the game is that there probably isn't a single "right way" to play, allowing all of us to have fun wiht the game in whatever style we choose.

Now to opinion. Many of the Cavs that wee lost during my turn set were from counterattacks. I would not have been able to get most of these units under the safety of an Army because their movement was gone after their attacks, it is the way I use them to attack as many cities as possible.

While I think understand the power of artillery in the game, its slow movement doesn't encourage my use of it. I did a small amount of square counting and my very rough guess is that, to raze the number of cities I did in the last 5 turns, it would require at least 3 stacks as you have described them. This would be necessary because it would take a minimum of 2 turns to get the cannons up next to the cities to have them work their magic. So it means 3 to 4 turns to take a city.
Turn 1 - Fire on a city and raze it.
Turn 2 - Movement on roads to next border, and hopefully move 1 square across the border.
Turn 3 - Movement adjacent to the city.
Turn 4 - Begin the sequence over again.

There is an additional price to pay for this style and that is loss of flexiblity. With Cavs, I can set a stack up to threaten 2, or sometimes 3, cities. Should I take one easily, I can then move on to another without loss of turns. Once I move that SoD with Cannons and Infantry towards a city, it all must go that way as they don't have any movement left to change direction with.

Lastly, I think that there is merit to driving deep into India and on to Japan instead of fixating on destroying the Aztecs or Iroquois first. By doing this, we keep the attention of the Indians and Japanese on war and divert them from research, and Infantry. We can help the Iroquoois and Aztecs lose a city or two a turn and keep them from producing much, taking them apart as we have the forces. India and Japan are relatively untouched and need to be reminded we are coming for them. Perhaps they will swithch governments and become less productive, but they will not change if we leave them be.

My 0.02. :rolleyes:

I'm really tired of this artillery discussion.

Even though the progress is not as fast as I want to see it, artillery would be much slower.

Just one more note:

@Adrian
In the 20 turns after you slowed down cav production and transport, there weren't 6 or 7 Aztec towns razed, but 11.
9 of them with very large cultural boundaries requiring at least 4-5 turns for an artillery stack to make impact.
More cavs could have done more.

Like I stated pretty early, I've got very good experience with arties on higher difficulties as well. I agree we should have gone with the arty approach. However, at this time, I feel we're too far ahead to switch to arty mode.
I haven't played it yet and I think we should debate this further. We need to come up with something or we won't reach conquest in time.
Sorry Capt. cross posted. After further reflection, I would vote to drive into India and on to Japan as the main thrust. We should try to take a city from the Aztecs and Iroquois every turn or so (especially those with resources or luxuries), just to keep them from getting too productive.

While I ought to learn the methods Adrian has presented, I think the stream is running too swiftly to try and change horses. :mischief: If we do so, we will only fall further behind. The resources we would need to gather to make the change would require far too much time and we are geared up and set to do it. Our strength is increasing, and should our losses grow, so will the GPT because of reduced maintenance, and we have a backlog of horse that need upgrades.

Of course, I haven't been particulary correct during this game, so perhaps you shouldn't listen to me!! :eek: :blush: :crazyeye:

Ok, got it.
Will play this evening due to family obligations.

Preflight:
City check: :goodjob: Leif, not much to do :)
Mediolanum isn't in WLTKD so make a citizen into tax collector to decrease corruption.

Just S of India: kill a 4/4 Indian cav with a vet Cav, no HP loss.
Kill a 4/4 Indian cav with an army (10/17), 2HP loss, but promotes. Capture a settler.

Disperse barb camp just S of ivory cluster where we'll found a city next turn. Unload Settler and two cavs next to ivory.
Move lots of cavs towards the N of the Aztec continent.
Move towards the Jap cities on our mainland and into German territory.
Move towards Niagara Falls.
<Enter>



IBT:
Japanese are moving 5 cavs into area between India and Iroq.
Kill a 5/5 German Rifle with a 5/5 Cav fortified on a hill --> 2/5.
Londinium Horse --> Horse.
Sirmium Horse --> Horse.
Selsucia Horse --> Horse.
Jerusalem Horse --> Horse.
Lugdunum Horse --> Horse.
Artaxata Horse --> Horse.
Palmyra Horse --> Horse.
Arretium Horse --> Horse.



Turn 1 - 1305AD:
Disperse barb camp on middle island.
Kill vet rifle in Frankfurt with Knight army, loosing a HP.
Kill 3/3 rifle in Frankfurt with 5/5 --> 3/5 cav, raze the city.
Kill 4/4 musket in Hakodate with 8/8 --> 5/8 cav army, raze it.
Upgrade 10 cavs.
Kill a 4/4 Aztec cav outside Laura.
Move cavs close to Grand River.
Found Ivor the Engine next to Ivory.

Niagara Falls:
Loose 4/4 cav to 4/4 rifle taking 1 HP.
Kill 4/4 rifle with 4/4 --> 3/4 cav.
Loose 4/4 cav to 4/4 --> 1/4 musket.
Kill 3/3 musket with 4/4 --> 4/5 cav.
Kill 1/4 musket with 4/4 cav, razing Niagara Falls.

Kill 4/4 Japanese cav with 4/4 --> 2/5 cav.
Kill 4/4 Japanese cav with 4/4 --> 2/5 cav.
Kill 4/4 Japanese cav with 4/4 --> 2/4 cav.
Kill 4/4 Japanese cav with 4/4 --> 3/4 cav.
Kill 4/4 Japanese cav with 4/4 --> 5/5 cav.

Kill 4/4 Iroq musket with 4/4 --> 3/4 cav outside Grand River.
Kill 4/4 Indian cav with 4/4 cav Between India and Ivor the Enigine.



IBT:
Loose 6 or 7 wounded cavs and defeat 3 cavs fighting Indian, Japanese and Iroq cavs.
Rome Horse --> Horse.
Veii Horse --> Horse.
Antium Horse --> Horse.
Neapolis Horse --> Horse.
Nicomedia Horse --> Horse.
Pompeii Horse --> Horse.
Hispalis Horse --> Horse.
Viroconium Horse --> Horse.
Tarentum Horse --> Horse.
Lutetia Horse --> Horse.
Gonzo Horse --> Horse.
Neocaledonium Worker --> Horse.
Aurelianorum Horse --> Horse.
Agrippina Horse --> Horse.



Turn 2 - 1310AD:
Switch 5 fast-producing cities to cavs. We're not able to upgrade all horses so we now have 5 cities that will build cav in 5.

Grand River:
Loose a 3/4 cav to 3/3 cav outside the city. Next 3/4 cav finishes it --> 2/5.
4/4 --> 2/5 cav defeats 3/3 rifle.
4/4 cav looses to 4/4 musket taking off 3 HPs.
4/4 cav retreats against 3/3 musket.
4/4 --> 5/5 cav defeats 3/3 rifle.
4/4 cav defeats 1/4 musket no HP loss, raze Grand River.
Salamanca culture borders still keeps Saltpeter...
Pillage Iroq saltpeter.

Disperse a barb camp on middle island.
Upgrade 9 cavs.

Close to Ivor the Enigine:
Kill 2/4 Indian cav with 4/4 --> 3/5 cav.
Kill 4/4 Indian cav with 4/4 --> 2/4 cav.
Loose 4/4 cav to 4/4 --> 2/4 Japanese cav.
Kill the 2/4 Jap cav with 4/4 --> 3/4 cav.
Kill 2/4 Indian cav with no HP loss to 4/4 cav.
Kill 4/4 Japanese cav with 4/4 --> 2/4 cav.
Kill 2/4 Japanese cav with 4/4 --> 3/4 cav.

Calcutta:
Loose 4/4 cav to 3/3 --> 1/3 rifle.
Kill 3/3 rifle with 4/4 --> 1/4 rifle.
Kill 3/3 rifle with 17/17 army --> 14/17.
Loose 3/4 cav to 4/4 cav, taking off 2 HPs.
Loose 3/4 cav to 1/3 rifle, promoting it.
Kill 2/4 rifle with 14/17 army, no HP loss.
Kill 2/4 cav with 5/5 cav, no HP loss, raze Calcutta



IBT:
Loose 2 wounded cavs to enemy cavs.
Jerusalem Horse --> Horse.
Cumae Horse --> Horse.
Pisae Horse --> Horse.
Ravenna Horse --> Horse.
Lugdunum Horse --> Horse.
Hippo Regius Forum --> Horse.
Artaxata Horse --> Horse.
Tyrus Horse --> Horse.
Aesonesium Worker --> Worker.
Bagacum Horse --> Horse.



Turn 3 - 1315AD:
Loose a second vet cav to an Aztec cav outside Laura, promoting it to 2/5.

S of India:
Kill the Aztec 2/5 cav with a 4/4 --> 2/4 cav.
Loose 2 4/4 cavs to a 3/5 Indian cav! :angry:
Kill the Indian 3/5 cav witha 4/4 --> 4/5 cav.
Kill a 4/4 Indian cav with a 4/4 --> 4/5 cav.

Move cavs close to Bombay.
Upgrade 9 cavs.
Ise is undefended, raze it.



IBT:
Loose 2 cavs on the Aztec continent.
Seleucia Horse --> Horse.
Verona Horse --> Horse.
Nicopolis Horse --> Horse.
Pompeii Horse --> Horse.
Hispalis Horse --> Horse.
Captain's Cabin Horse --> Horse.
Brundisium Horse --> Horse.
Palmyra Horse --> Horse.
Arretium Horse --> Horse.
Gordion Horse --> Horse.
Trapezus Horse --> Horse.



Turn 4 - 1320AD:
Bombay:
4/4 cav retreats against 3/3 --> 2/3 rifle.
5/5 --> 3/5 cav defeats 3/3 rifle.
5/5 cav retreats against 3/3 rifle.
5/5 cav retreats against 3/3 --> 2/3 rifle.
5/5 --> 4/5 cav defeats 2/3 rifle.
5/5 --> 4/5 cav defeats 2/3 rifle.
3/4 --> 1/4 cav defeats 4/4 cav. Misclick so I go into the city, but abandon it right away. Bombay is gone.
Move on to Delhi.

5/5 cav retreats against 4/4 --> 2/4 rifle in Leipzig.
5/5 --> 2/5 cav kills 8/8 army in Leipzig.
4/4 --> 3/4 cav takes out 3/3 rifle in Leipzig.
Take out 2 barb camps on barb island.
Take out a vet Japanese cav that landed next to Ivor the Engine, 4/4 --> 5/5 cav.

Salamanca:
4/4 cav retreats against 4/4 --> 3/4 rifle.
4/4 --> 2/4 cav takes out 3/3 rifle.
4/4 --> 2/5 cav takes out 3/3 rifle.
4/4 cav retreats against 3/4 --> 2/3 rifle.
4/4 --> 2/4 cav takes out 4/4 musket.
Loose 4/4 cav to 2/4 --> 1/4 rifle.
4/4 --> 2/4 cav takes out 1/4 rifle.
4/4 --> 5/5 cav wins against 4/4 longbow and razes Salamanca.

Loose a 4/4 cav to a 4/5 Aztec cav outside Laura.
Next 4/4 cav takes the Aztec out with no HP loss.
4/4 --> 1/4 cav kills 4/4 rifle in new-founded Tenoctithlan (just NW of Laura), raze it for 11 gold.
Upgrade 10 cavs.

S of India:
4/4 --> 5/5 cav kills 1/4 Iroq cav.
4/4 --> 2/4 cav kills 4/4 Japanese cav.
4/4 --> 2/4 cav kills 4/4 Japanese cav.
4/4 --> 3/5 cav kills 4/4 Japanese cav.
4/4 cav kills 4/4 Indian cav.
4/4 --> 5/5 cav kills 3/3 Indian cav.
Loose a 4/4 cav to 3/3 --> 1/3 Japanese rifle.
Next 4/4 cav kills the rifle, no HP loss.



IBT:
Loose 4, defeat 3 Iroq, Japanese and Indian cavs.
Retreat a cav from a rifle outside Leipzig.
Jerusalem Horse --> Horse.
Caesarea Worker --> Worker.
Lugdunum Horse --> Horse.
Lutetia Horse --> Horse.
Artaxata Horse --> Horse.
Gonzo Horse --> Horse.
Lunacantorium Horse --> Horse.
Cyrene Horse --> Horse.



Turn 5 - 1325AD:
Delhi:
4/4 cav retreats against 4/4 --> 3/4 rifle.
Loose 4/4 cav to 3/3 rifle.
Loose 4/4 cav to 3/3 rifle.
4/4 cav retreats against 3/3 --> 2/3 rifle.
Loose 4/4 cav to 3/4 rifle.
4/4 --> 3/5 cav defeats 3/4 rifle.
4/4 --> 2/5 cav defeats 2/3 rifle.
3/4 cav retreats against 2/3 rifle.
2 3/4 cavs loose to 2/3 --> 3/5 rifle.
11/17 --> 5/17 army defeats 3/5 rifle.
4/5 cav looses to 2/3 rifle, promoting it.
4/5 --> 2/5 cav defeats 3/4 rifle.
4/5 cav looses to 4/4 --> 2/4 cav.
3/4 rifle defeats 2/4 cav and we raze it for 39 gold. 9 Workers are disbanded :lol: Delhi is gone.

S of India:
4/4 --> 5/5 cav defeats 4/4 Japanese cav.
3/4 --> 1/4 cav defeats 4/4 Indian cav.
4/4 --> 2/4 cav defeats 4/4 Japanese cav.
15/16 --> 11/16 army defeats Indian 4/4 pike.
5/5 --> 3/5 cav defeats 2/3 Indian spear.

Outside Centralia:
Loose a 4/4 cav to a 4/4 Iroq cav, promoting it to 5/5.
4/4 --> 1/4 cav takes out 5/5 Iroq cav.

4/4 --> 3/4 cav kills 3/3 Aztec rifle outside Tlacopan.
18/18 --> 11/18 army kills 4/4 rifle in Tlacopan.
Upgrade 9 cavs.
Add a worker to Ravenna for +4 gpt. Move other workers into Brundisium and Syracuse--> add them next turn.



A few notes on our situation:
We have 141 cavs and 14 horses.
I was sending almost all units to the North. Iroq and Aztecs are on their knees. I'm thinking the army outside Tlacopan should take out the Aztecs and then move on to the Iroq.
I messed up with the Germans, sorry. I shouldn't have seperated the forces there. On the bright side. We might have been facing a full-strength cav army if I hadn't and the Germans could join their forces...
A German rifle is threatening Byzanthium, but I've got no idea of whether I should attack now or if it's better to wait (I've got a hunch that it's better to wait, but I haven't got my battle calc on this comp.
There's a Caravel just N of Ivor the Engine. The safest thing would be to unload all units now, but if we can wait til next turn we'll have dyes online in 2 turns and can establish a forward Arms city in Indian territory. Watch out though. There are lots of Japanese Ironclads out there.
We have a wounded cav on the saltpeter that was close to Salamanca. I think the Iroq slipped a settler past, but it's really no biggie cause we've got cavs coming through the continent every turn.
Some MM is required after Cumae grew, but I couldn't figure it out. It's quite a puzzle...

I'm not very happy with my turns. I had expected to have a corridor through to Japan ready, but I got caught up disconnecting the Iroq saltpeter. Sorry :sad:

Sorry I didn't respond to the debate earlier, I've been preoccupied with getting things done before I go offline this week, not least playing GOTM 34 :hmm:.

Re the artillery issue, I think this is a debate between two very different approaches to the game, and I don't think it's practical to switch between them having started on one trajectory because of the crimp it would put in the supply of cavalry to the front.

I don't pretend to know as much about this game as Klarius, whose results in the GOTM are way better than mine, but my preference is not to build bombard units until range 2 artillery is available. With rails, that gives you a similar offensive range to tanks. Before that the bombard units are very limiting on the progress that can be achieved by fast units. Artillery can only operate under the protection of a defensive shield, and can only kill in combination with offensive units. So if you use cats/cannon you you slow horses/cavalry to the speed of defenders and artillery, and you have to divert extra shields into defensive units. The unique exception, which I've been playing with in another SG, is the set of Mongol UUs that were unleashed in GOTM 25. They are high speed early-Medieval units with various flexible combinations of bombard/lethal bombard/attack/blitz that are totally unbalancing ... and enormous fun :D

We had a brief discussion about cats in SGOTM2, and I haven't changed my views since then. At that time, I tried to develop a numerical argument that compared the effectiveness of a cat stack vs the extra offensive troops you could build with the same number of shields, and I couldn't make an "accounting" case in favour of cats.

Our biggest problem is not the cost of our attacks on the AI cities, it's the counter attacks in between turns. We need to cut the production capacity of the Indians and Japanese to reduce their hit rate on our forces, and I think reducing the road links they use to reach deep into our supply and recovery lines would also limit the damage they can do. That choke point has to be the key. If we can put our armies in that bottleneck India and Japan are trapped. This would increase the supply of healthy troops to the front and the whole attack rate would snowball. But only if our cavalry have freedom to advance fast.

Sorry again - I crossposted with Captain's turnlog.

A German rifle is threatening Byzanthium, but I've got no idea of whether I should attack now or if it's better to wait (I've got a hunch that it's better to wait, but I haven't got my battle calc on this comp.

I made the mistake of not attacking a German rifle when I picked it up last time, and the rifle killed my cav. I should have attacked.

I'm not very happy with my turns.

Looks like excellent work to me, Captain :goodjob: Do I count NINE cities gone? I just hope I can make as good progress in my turn set.

Capt Buttkick Just played
leif erikson
AlanH UP
Klarius On deck
AdrianE

GOT IT. Any last requests before I start?

I tried an online attack calc and it looks like it's ~ 70% chance of winning if we defend and around 64% chance of loosing if we attack. :eek:
Both units are on hills...
Btw: I play on my laptop and only upload on my online comp which is a sluggish 600Mhz.

9 cities, yes. But 3 of them are newly founded ones and I don't really count them as progress :rolleyes:

I agree with Alan Capt!! Looks like very good work to me! :goodjob: :D
You have cut a deep penetration into India and caused them to lose their some of their most productive cities. Looks like 2 more large cities and then on to Japan. Good progress and you have 11 more Cavs than what I finished with, that is good. ;)
GOT IT. Any last requests before I start?
Nice to see you Alan. I almost sent you a PM, was getting worried about you. ;)

If you can drive through those last 2 Indian northern cities and begin to gut Japan it would be nice, unless you have something else in mind? I think that when we hurt Japanese production it will be a matter of cleaning up the remnants, although that makes it easier than it sounds.

Team Tao finished in 1530 AD. That is about 40 turns from now. We have to at least try to best them? :mischief:

Good luck Alan!! Have a great time. Looks like you'll get in right before your scheduled to be off line. :goodjob:

I tried an online attack calc and it looks like it's ~ 70% chance of winning if we defend and around 64% chance of loosing if we attack. :eek:
Both units are on hills...

I think that rifle is on a pillaging mission to get the gems and will only attack the city if it is undefended, but I have been known to be wrong. :rolleyes: Once into the mountains, he will likely succeed as our chance of winning goes way down then. We might have to defend on a mountain with gems or risk losing all those roads! :eek:

It will take him quite a few turns to get to the gems yet. He's only at Byzanths and Gem city is another 3-4 tiles away.
I think a Horse completes nearby next turn so we can upgrade that and have two cavs at the ready for fighting the rogue rifle.

It will take him quite a few turns to get to the gems yet. He's only at Byzanths and Gem city is another 3-4 tiles away.
I think a Horse completes nearby next turn so we can upgrade that and have two cavs at the ready for fighting the rogue rifle.
iirc, there is a gem in the square adjacent to the rifle's current location. There are about 4 or 5 gems in the mountains there.

Maybe, there are loads more around Gem City anyhoo. So it's not the gems I'm worrying about.

I tried an online attack calc and it looks like it's ~ 70% chance of winning if we defend and around 64% chance of loosing if we attack. :eek:
Both units are on hills.
Yes, you're right. The situation I had was a regular on open ground. I think we have to defend, and, as you say, he'll prolly move along. Worst case he takes Byzantium and we have to retrieve it with the next cavs we produce.

@Capt
Looks good overall :goodjob:
As usual there are a few points I don't like, but that's just my nature.
The city on the ivory is quite useless. It doesn't help anything in our war. I would have liked a city in India with this settler already. The ivory was ready to be hooked by a colony made by a worker.
The dyes can also be already hooked next turn by a worker. Still the settler could also go in this region.

In the north of our continent there are still no patrols going around. This job could be done by horses, if we have some to spare.

Byzantium is not nice, but also no big problem. If we loose the city that's no big loss.
Still we have then the problem to defend gem city, which has no really nice location. We will need a few cavs to get the Germans already in the empty land.
There are still a few buildings we could sell (I think two granaries in cities with stable population and maybe a temple). So you could upgrade the horse in Bagacum already before hitting enter.

Generally we have the problem now that we still have to press towards Japan but also need to start towards the barren territories, because movement is so slow there.
Even our current number of cavs, which is nice :goodjob: , is maybe not enough for all the tasks we have.

I have already checked around for things to sell off. We have several temples, and at least one harbour where we are not working the sea for food. I'll check for granaries as well.

In the north of our continent there are still no patrols going around. This job could be done by horses, if we have some to spare.
Please can you explain what horses can do there? I'm missing a trick here, I think. They can kill barbs, but surely they're not a lot of use against muskets and rifles.

Please can you explain what horses can do there? I'm missing a trick here, I think. They can kill barbs, but surely they're not a lot of use against muskets and rifles.
First the barbs, to not tie up cavs in fights with them.
Second they shall explore, find out where enemies are to optimise the missions of cavs and not let cavs run into critical situations like ending their turn next to a rifle ;).
They should not use all their movement points, but end their turns fortified on roaded hills or mountains to maximize their view.

Thanks for the feedback.
I see your point in doing colonies instead of cities and I should have thought of that. I thought the workers were there to road if important road segments got pillaged or razed so I moved them towards the N.
I don't think it's possible to upgrade more cavs. I think I unhooked saltpeter before saving, sorry :(
Good idea on sending a few scouting horses in the N :goodjob:
Good luck, Alan :thumbsup:

I see your point in doing colonies instead of cities and I should have thought of that. I thought the workers were there to road if important road segments got pillaged or razed so I moved them towards the N.
I don't think it's possible to upgrade more cavs. I think I unhooked saltpeter before saving, sorry :(

It was just bad luck that I lost the first worker going to hook up the ivory. Otherwise you wouldn't have felt the temptation. Then Leif obviously understood the plan and sent more workers. We then both missed the opportunity to make it clear to you, sorry.
Building roads with the few workers we can muster (and guarding them by forces we need to raze cities) is probably to slow. That's why I wanted to build one nice road segment 2SW of Lahore by settling there.
I looked into the save and Alan probably also, before suggesting the upgrade. The salt is still hooked. :cool:
Another small point for Alan. I found a cav in our furs colony. This could already move to the Japanese city, before hitting enter. Or do some other useful things.
EDIT:
Another point, you could sacrifice some healing cavs with full movement to pillage Indias saltpeter already, it doesn't really matter if the counterattacks hit on this tile or some other.
Being on saltpeter this has the nice effect that we could redo the road later by just using one worker for a colony.
There are 3 cavs and a cannon in Curia. They are not needed there. If somebody should capture the town that's even better than a counterattack on a healing cav. Also the cannon should either be disbanded or serve as bait.
The cavs with the workers could do some reconnaissance, before returning to guard.
Give em hell, Alan.

BTW, I saw your AA spoiler for GOTM 34. Looks like this could be your best GOTM result, if you stayed on a nice warmongering course. Though I don't think you will beat my result ;) .

I think I unhooked saltpeter before savingNope! The saltpeter was still hooked up, and the workers had finished for the day. I did it the other way around during my turns because then the new builds can default to horses. As it was this meant I would have to go around next turn and convert new cav builds to horses, but the good news was that I could upgrade the Bagacum horse.

The trick I enjoyed was finding a way to get the horse to within reach of the rifle before upgrading him. I could just get him from Bagacum to Gem City with his six moves, but he would not be selectable for individual upgrading. However, I worked out that I could move all but one horse out of Ravenna, so if I could find 100 gold I could move Bagacum-horse to Gem City, and upgrade him plus the Ravenna one by selecting an out-of-town horse and hitting shift-U.

I went on a serious gold panning tour of F1 and sold off 3 granaries (21 gold), 4 temples (27 gold), 2 harbours (10 gold) and three walls (3 gold). This gave us 62 gold to add to the 38 making .... 100! [dance]. It also increased our net income by 9gpt.

The other trick I'm trying is to do a little ship chaining to short circuit the supply pipeline and get a one-time boost in cavalry arrivals in Azteca.

I only played that pre-flight and the IBT last night before my eyelids told me to quit. In the interturn, the Japanese and Indians have both set up shop in the north of our continent. One or two cavs are going to have to stay home to keep the AI settlements, and the Gemans, under control. Meanwhile, the Iroquois resettled Salamanca next to the pillaged saltpeter and killed our redlined cav, of course. :(

No fighting yet ... I'll be playing the rest of my turns tonight, I hope.

Ok too late for my suggestions for preflight.
How do you do effective ship chaining in vanilla, w/o the ability to rename the ships?
I never know which one is which.
EDIT:
Investing in a settler out of Lauriacum (gold or a disbanded cav) to settle on the landing point could also shave of one turn by dropping the cavs of in the city. But we might run short of ships then.

EDIT2:
BTW, I wouldn't mind if you do a few turns more than five, if you find the time before your vacation. Maybe you could put me in the position to put this game to rest.

Ship chaining in vanilla includes an element of trial and error to get units into ships that can still move. Here's my approach, I think it's only worth while if speed is absolutely critical, and it ought to be allowed in RBCiv rules for vanilla if only because of the sheer patience and dedication required :hmm: I'll describe it as it is in this game - Caravels with three spaces.

1 Try to minimise the number of ships at each changeover point at any time.
2 Move one ship into the stack at the swap point and activate all units.
3 Select the top active unit and hit 'L'.
4A If there is only one empty ship at the changeover point the unit will jump into it and go to sleep.
- Select the next unit to Activate and hit 'L'. You get a choice of Caravels. One will have one space and the other will have two. Choose the one with two spaces. The unit will jump into it and go to sleep.
- Select the last unit to Activate and hit 'L'. You get a choice of Caravels. One will have one space and the other will have two. Choose the one with one space to complete the transfer.

4B If there are multiple ships at the changeover, the first unit gets a choice when you hit 'L'.
- Select a ship and check to see if you now have a ship with movement points containing one unit.
- If you have then continue as above, choosing the same ship each time.
- If you haven't then your test unit is the only one that's asleep. Wake him up, hit 'L' and repeat with another ship.

I thought about the option of a city at the Aztec end of the chain. As you say it increases the number of boats.
We can get from Ravenna to an offshore drop point and back in four Caravel hops, loading and landing in one turn. This is already a longer trip than our current offshore-to-offshore 3 hop round trip, so we'll need four ship chaining Caravels where our normal shipping arrangements have used three. We have 14 Caravels plying that ferry crossing right now. we can set up a stack of six mid-stream and three at each end which will allow 9 units to be shipped each turn. A couple of extra ships will continue with normal round trips taking an average of two more units per turn. I think that just about matches our production rate. However, a city-city round trip will be 4.5 hops. Our two extra Caravels would become shuttle ships to handle the extra tile of movement, and we'd have a three step chaining sequence for 9 units per turn. This may just keep pace with our production, and I'm prepared to set this up. But I suspect it will be abandoned by the next player as being way too complicated. I'm nervous for the survival of my current simpler plan past the end of my turn set.

Of course, we *could* move Ravenna one tile west :mischief:

What were your preflight suggestions? [edit] Whoops! Just spotted them above. Sorry, I missed that post earlier, and missed some of the opporunities you spotted :(