SGOTM3 Rome - Game Thread.

Hi everyone, and welcome to your game thread.

Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM3.jpg

Here are a couple of links you might find useful.

The Original GOTM16 Announcement. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm16_rome.shtml)
The Draft Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)

This Months' sponsored variant is Xenophobic NOW
The rules are as follows.
1. Non-Oscillating War variant. You keep a list of opponents and the order in which you meet them.
2. You must declare war on the first Civ you meet before leaving the diplomacy screen for the first time.
3. You must stay at war with that Civ until one of you have been eliminated.
4. You must declare war on the second Civ you met on the same turn that the first Civ was eliminated or 20 turns has elapsed (whichever happens sooner). This is to prevent sandbagging.
5. After each opponent is eliminated or 20 turns elapse you must declare war on the next civ in the list.
6. If you run out of opponents because you haven't met them yet and 20 turns have elapsed, you must declare war on the next opponent you meet before leaving the diplomacy screen for the first time with them

The Xenophobic part of the variant runs as follows.
7. You may never own a foreign worker. You must never buy or sell one, and if you capture them they must be disbanded on the tile on which they were captured.
8. All deals must be at face value. No haggling.
9. You will not establish embassies.
10. You will never retain a town that contains foreign citizens. Such towns must be razed and any workers spawned disbanded.

Also there is a puzzle involving some non-standard Barbarian Units. The puzzle is framed in the same way as it was for the original GOTM16, but the solution is different.

The save will be available from >>HERE<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php) when the timelock is released. All of your teams save files will eventually be available from this link.

When you finish your turn, you may upload your save to >>THIS<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php) link

Have fun, and good luck everyone!

EDIT

Contacts and turns

This is a convenient area for me to list the date and turn number when we make contact with each civ, and the corresponding latest date to declare war on them.

[EDIT] Table corrected - I missed out India. Thanks Klarius.


Civ Contact date/turn Latest DoW date/turn
Greece 2270 BC / Turn #37 2270 BC / Turn #37 (1st contact)
France 1990 BC / Turn #44 1575 BC / Turn #57 Declared
England 1625 BC / Turn #55 1075 BC / Turn #77 Declared
America 1500 BC / Turn #60 610 BC / Turn #97 They declared 975 BC
Russia 1500 BC / Turn #60 210 BC / Turn #117 They declared 775 BC
Babylon 1450 BC / Turn #62 190 AD / Turn #137 They declared 750 BC
Germany 1325 BC / Turn #67 420 AD / Turn #157 They declared 510 BC
India 250 BC / Turn #115 620 AD / Turn #177
Aztecs 250 BC / Turn #115 820 AD / Turn #197
Iroquois 250 BC / Turn #115 1020 AD / Turn #217
Japanese 250 BC / Turn #115 1220 AD / Turn #237


-------------------------------------------------------

Hello team, I've PM'd everyone, so I hope we'll all check in here soon.

Our cast of characters this time around is, in alphabetical order:

AdrianE
AlanH
Capt Buttkick
JackA
klarius
leif erikson

This is not the running order. We need a lot more information before we can set that up.

As I said in my PM to you all, it would be good to kick off with check in posts that introduce yourselves, your experience of Civ and SGs, any strengths and weaknesses you'd like to play to, any scheduling issues you have - vacation season approaching and all.

A couple of housekeeping things:

Roster discipline:
I'd like to play to the normal targets of 24 hours for the next player on the roster to Get It from the time a save is posted, and 72 hours from the save to post the turn log and the next save. If you know this is going to be a problem at any time please warn us and we can work out the best way forward be it a skip or a delay. Please *don't* just go "missing in action". If we know about a problem we can resolve it. If we don't ... we'll just be left hanging.

Game etiquette;
Unless anyone has any objections I propose we work to standard SG etiquette:
- First player plays 20 turns to 3000BC, subsequent players 10 turns each.
- Turn logs include all important events, problems and achievements, screenshots of key details like city investigations and embassies, and end with a summary of work in progress, suggested next steps.
- No city governors turned on, no unit 'go-to' commands outstanding at the end of the turn.
- Don't do diplo deals on your last turn, otherwise, save the game in the state where you would be happy to hit 'next turn'.
- Don't make wholesale changes to inherited city build orders without checking back here first. We are playing the very challenging NOW variant at Emperor level. We shall need to work together on an agreed strategy to survive and prosper.
- Let's be polite. We're all here to learn from each other and have fun.
- I'm sure I've forgotten something, so please add your own points.

To answer my own questions:

I've played four or five Succession Games and enjoyed them all. It's a fast learning curve. I've played very few solo random games, my other experience has been GOTMs where I've been struggling around the upper-middle of the rankings. I'm probably a Monarch player, but I survive at Emperor in GOTM, where the non-random starts are a bit flattering. I've even submitted a Deity win :eek:

I'm a warmonger by instinct, using fast attacking units for preference and never building defenders. My weakness is probably lack of good campaign planning. I tend to build lots of units and throw them at the enemy with only a rough plan in mind and reacting to events as they unfold. I'm fairly analytical in other areas, though, and previous Xteam members will attest to my boring treatises on things like city placement and such :rolleyes: Oh! and, as AdrianE will warn you, I post too much. I'll try and cut down ;)

I don't have any planned outages and don't mind where I play in the batting order.

Let's do it!

To answer AlanH's PM:

I'm usually a lazy monarch in my own games. Can win emperor fairly consistently if I choose to MM a lot (I can assure you that I put an effort into the Sgotms :))
Only experience of SGs is from Sgotm
I'm very good at opening play, at least on lower difficulties. I truly suck when it comes to warfare. I never seem to be able to take full advantage of the diversity of approaches to warfare that the game has to offer. I'm learning a lot from these sgotms though, and since we've chosen the variant, I'll probably learn a little from this month's experience as well :rolleyes:
No preferred roster order.
No upcoming absences for close to a month. I have probs getting to a comp on the weekends, but I'll try to get there once a day. We can talk more about that if it may turn into a problem (I'll stay ahead of it of course).

Apart from that:
:wavey: Hi and welcome to our newcomers
:salute: Welcome back to former XTeam members

Hello again

I will likely be away in the first week of August or so.

I'm an emporer level player if I feel like being diligent. I've won deity level games. I've submitted a couple of GOTMs but don't place well because I don't use the required exploits.

I never played the original GOTM that this is based on.


With regard to this game: I think we should delay contact as long as possible. The AI's will have bonus units at emperor level so finding them early could be bad for us. We will be self researching for most of the game. Military tradition ASAP will be our goal. We need to build a core and units quick. Should we research Iron working (legions) or pottery first?

I forsee only building barracks and units for the most part. We will need libraries and unis to help with research. A granary or two for growth as well. We might want to try a great library gambit as well. The only wonders we'll get will be those we build.

I think we will need a large stack of legions and cats (the anvil) and horsemen (the hammer) to survive. Artillery will save our units lives and I'm sure they will be precious to us. See the 3CC AW SG for why cats are needed.

I'm thinking settle on the spot (hills for defence). There is lots of nice productive terrain arround. We will need the shields for units.

It occurs to me that the most useful thing we could do is get victim #2 to fight victim #1 before the 20 turn timer is up. Although that will be difficult without embassies!

Adrian

Checking in.
I'm an old time civ 1 and 2 veteran and came to civ3 only a few months ago. I moved up to emperor level pretty fast and didn't play anything else since then (a few deitys even with a win, but don't like it really).
My favorite setting is tiny pangea and I won this with every vanilla civ.
Lately I discovered Gotm, decided I want to play it and then was surprised by the fact I had to acquire Conquests first. So Cotm 1 was my first Gotm and my first game played in Conquests. With the help of the messed up Jason coefficients I made place 11 there. :cool:
I never played a SG and hope that this will keep me focused enough to get through a game that will feature a large empire. When I'm playing on bigger maps I usually quit playing, when I consider the game essentially won. So my experiences in modern age are near to nothing and I even didn't do much industrial time warmongering.

I analysed the start position and see three major possibilities:
- What I would do normally: I see already that we have a 6-turn combo factory for an archer, a warrior and a settler available (at size 4.8 to 6.8 or 5 to 7 with heavy MM and 5 mined BGs ). That's about as good as it ever gets, so settle in spot, optimise worker turns to get 2 warriors and a granary before growth to size 3 (needs only one turn of delayed growth according to my calculation, but has to be played very exactly, e.g. we need about every gold piece for getting pottery in time before the prebuild (only settler possible) expires).
The city site also has the potential to generate well over 20 shields in a despotic golden age, if we have enough workers to have many tiles improved and then pump the city to a decent size. With some luck this could give the Great Library (or a 380 shield plain library, if not so lucky).
-Move 1 tile SW we still have the same factory available get a forest for some more MM options and could find something nice in the fog. We forfeit the defense bonus of the hill, but get more likelihood to get attacked over a river (downside: will have to counterattack over the river also very likely).
By the shields we gain from the game our initial development will be similar to the above case. We could even get a rax 1 turn earlier, if that's the first build.
-Boldly move 3 tiles SW, unknown what we find, but we still have a lot of good tiles and the food bonus for at least a decent 6-turn factory (and if we find one lousy BG more we are back to the good factory).
Reserve our starting position for a wonder city, to be able to prebuild for the Great Library.
That's not my style normally, but I got burnt in two COTMs by not wandering and I also wonder why mad-bax has worsened the N-NE region relative to the original announcement.
Is this a hint for great riches in the SW?
As you see I'm in the learning phase of the gotm psychology. IMO the only good reason for wandering a lot in Cotm 2 was the "Ainwood wouldn't do it" type of argument.

What I definitely don't like is to scout to the south with the worker.
It's three turns loss in this case and will definitely prevent the early granary and irrigation of the game, throwing us back even more.
All this reasoning still leads me to the first plan. Solid development first. Population build-up will give us the strength to roll over the other civs.

One more note: I would stick to the granary route even when being at war after 15 turns. The two warriors should be able to handle the typical 2-3 warrior SoD of an early emperor war. If it's Otto with 2-3 archers,
we anyways can only pray to the RNG-god (and mad-bax wouldn't be so devious, or would he?).

EDIT:
I'm talking a lot about TGL. So I should probably also note the research I would do. So:
Pottery @ max
Writing @ min
Literature @ as much as we can afford at that time

The hope is that we can trade for BW,IW and TW by building up money in the min research and hopefully reaching writing first (that's typically possible on emperor, when starting with alphabet). The first hostilities will have to be done with archers and warriors. That's also no problem if we have enough of them.

I will probably be on a business trip the last week of this month, other than that I see nothing coming up.

Thanks for your thoughts, guys. Very helptul starts to the discussions on our opening moves. I'm off to work, so I'll check in this evening and see how we're going.

Klarius: I agree on a lot of what you said. I just want to point out that, even though it's late in the month, gotm spoilers are best kept in the appropriate threads. It's only been a couple of days since I managed to pick the game up due to heavy work load and I'd consider myself very spoilered by your Cotm remark (if I hadn't already decided to move in the pregame discussion, that is :p).

Another thing we should discuss :
What do we do if the excrements really hit the vent. :cry:
Do we bail out of the variant, or head for an early wooden spoon victory. :lol:

Klarius: I agree on a lot of what you said. I just want to point out that, even though it's late in the month, gotm spoilers are best kept in the appropriate threads. It's only been a couple of days since I managed to pick the game up due to heavy work load and I'd consider myself very spoilered by your Cotm remark (if I hadn't already decided to move in the pregame discussion, that is :p).
I apologize for the spoiler comment. I really didn't think that there would be people around not knowing. But at least it wasn't telling much. If it wasn't good for me to not move, due to my limited skills in developing the starting location that doesn't automatically mean that a better player couldn't work it out correctly. :lol:

Guys: I have a concern with the 1.29f saves. On my computer and on Alanhs computer the Roman Leader is named Temujin and not Caesar. :p

The reason I am concerned about this is that in the bic it is correct. I feel I need to investigate this and correct it since it may affect all the leader names, and may conceivably be the cause of game crashes later in the game.

I would ask that you delay starting the game until this evening when I have checked everything out and am satisfied with the result.

I apologise for the inconvenience.

I apologize for the spoiler comment. I really didn't think that there would be people around not knowing. But at least it wasn't telling much. If it wasn't good for me to not move, due to my limited skills in developing the starting location that doesn't automatically mean that a better player couldn't work it out correctly. :lol:

From the little I've heard of you, I wouldn't consider myself a better player :)
Gotm opening moves are often like the quote from the movie "Little Big Man": "Sometimes the old magic works and sometimes it doesn't." :lol: I've moved the settler with good results and with poor results. Often, luck is an important factor, as it was for me in Cotm 2.

Btw: I think we should stick to the variant even if things look bleak. I think we can do it and even if we won't get a medal, just winning the variant will be a huge achievement.

@ M-B: We haven't even had all people sign in and there's a lot to decide before we pick up the save so without fear of retibution from my team mates I think I can say we're far off from picking up the save.

The 1.29f saves are fixed and uploaded. The last part of the save name is now _02.SAV

My apologies for any inconvenience caused.

We're still missing JackA and leif erikson. Both were keen to get into this game, and leif was very active on the Xteam during SGOTM2, so we need to give them another 24 hours to reach here before we send out search parties or ask for reinforcements.

To keep the ball rolling, here are some disjointed thoughts on your suggestions about the game.

I agree we need to keep our heads down until the first contact. We need to be as strong as possible when we first declare war. We played the Always War (AW) variant in SGOTM1, and I felt we made contact earlier than necessary then. Exploration should be in slowly widening circles until we know just enough about our surroundings to identify the next city locations. However, it's a bit more complex after the first contact, because unlike AW we don't have to declare on the second civ for another 20 turns. So we should really switch from hiding to aggressive exploration after our first contact.

My research preference is Pottery to get a settler pump going, then I'm not sure. Iron is usually researched by the AI pretty quickly, making Writing attractve for trading, but we don't know how spread out the AI are, or even how many of them might be on our home continent. I suggest we pause during the first 20 turns to review that issue after we get Pottery. By then we'll probably know a bit more about where we live, and maybe already be at war.

I suggest we settle a very tight pattern, starting where we stand. RCP at 3.x and 5 or 6? Circle the wagons ;) Nomadic settlers are strictly for C3C, I think, when an agricultural civ will walk a million miles for fresh water. It sounds as if we have an expert MMer in Klarius. If you can map the sequence of worker actions and citizen allocations out we can follow your script, settling at the start. I don't think we can afford the luxury of a wandering settler in this game. Just imagine the speed of our defeat if he meets an AI scouting warrior before we've even settled :eek:

It's going to be an interesting balancing act between building archers for the early wars and warriors to upgrade for the later ones. I'll look at that AW SG, AdrianE. As you know, I'm sceptical about the value of cats, but I'm happy to be persuaded. I haven't played with legionaries since my early fumbling attempts with Civ3. They feel a bit defensive to me, as I prefer to attack the AI rather than let them come to us, and in spite of their lower attack stats, horses with speed and retreat seem to work well. However, I guess a legion can just walk up to a city's gates, bat off any counter-attack attempts, and then go in for the kill. Cats will be able to keep up with legions a bit better as well. :hmm:

RBCiv rules will be a bit of a luxury in this game. I just can't see us entirely avoiding dastardly tactics if we are to survive this slugfest. Does anyone object to looking at F10 to see who we're up against? Any other 'exploits' you'd like us to avoid at all costs?

Re. the options if it goes pear shaped: I vote we don't even consider the possibility until it happens. :D

:wavey: Hello everyone. Sorry I'm a bit late to the party, wife made me visit the in-laws with no internet connection. Just got home after driving 400 miles!! :cry:

Been playing GOTM's now for a year or so and probably qualify as a competent Monarch player, a little better when I take my time as I try to do in SGOTM. Have to learn more about warmongering as I have generally been a builder who fears going to war too early - I'd better get over that for this game!! :eek: I can play pretty well in the early game but can get lost in the Industrial Age thru to the Modern Age, without really setting priorities and sticking to them. I only ask that, when you think I am wrong, to explain to me why I am wrong so that I can learn from it. Thanks, and I will probably press my point some more but .... My only succession game experience has been here in the SGOTM, 2 down and now this one.

For the purposes of full disclosure, GOTM 16 was my first GOTM experience. I played to learn from it and did not submit it. (My first submission was GOTM 17) Unfortunately, as I am getting older, I've forgotten most of the details and have not bothered to look them up in my files. So I may recognize some things as we go along.

I agree with Alan's game etiquette suggestions. I see no time constraints in the next few weeks and will post if any come up in advance. The only comment I have about order is to try to arrange the order so that we can use time zones to our advantage, much as we did in SGOTM2.

Spent some time thinking about this game. There seem to be three objectives, beyond survival of course, and one further important requirement.
1. Since we can not capture cities, we must be able to produce sufficient settlers to keep our expansion moving forward as rapidly as we can.
2. We will need to produce offensive combat units in quantity as early as possible. We should probably try to find Iron and Horses as soon as we can.
3. We need to build our empire, city siting, with defense in mind.
4. Lastly, we can not expand and build production capacity without a substantial number of workers.

I agree with Alan's basic idea that we should keep the build close. While away I played with Ring City Placement and found that at distance 3 - 3.5 we can build 8 cities with reasonable space around them. A second ring at 7- 7.5 will allow an additional 20 cities that will be fairly tightly packed. In addition, these distances allow us to move defensive units between the cities, once the road net is up, in one turn so we can optimally defend. AT RCP 3-3.5 and 7-7.5, we can build 29 cities and have an average of 6+ squares per city available for citizens to work. Later, a Forbidded Palace can be built at 14 - 16 tiles away to get a second core up and running, once we have defeated our first AI opponent. ;)

I played some test games with the initial start location and found that we should try to get the wine hooked up fairly early to save the gold we will need for research or bartering. The forest will need chopping as well on the game. Klarius' number 1 option sounds fairly straight forward to me, although I would like to get a look towards the SE. Staying near the rivers will be important for commerce generation and, in this scenario, I am reluctant to do very much wandering with the settler. Our initial scouting should probably be used to reveal our immediate surroundings to allow planning for RCP and getting our base built so we can defend ourselves. Those additional AI units in Emperor could spell early trouble for us. Our second city should be cited to produce as many offensive units as possible. We will need workers as well, a worker pump if possible, with a later city.

On researching techs, with no trades, I found that with Pottery, I could get to Iron Working generally by turn 52, 1700 BC. If I skipped Pottery and went straight to Iron Working, I could get there by about turn 42, 2070 BC. The question for me then became, "which tech will be easier to trade for, Pottery or IW?" I found it easier to trade for Pottery than IW, but that could be my style of play as well. Before we make that decision, we should use the F10 key to find out who our opponents are and see how many of them start with Pottery.

Lastly, on RBCiv rules. To me, this game looks like a conquest match, or if we can produce settlers fast enough, perhaps a domination type game. I don't think we can let this drag out very long and expect to do well. With all the razing of cities that will be required and the declarations of war, I don't see how we will have a reputation that will be worth anything. Imho, we have to go for it and forget the pleasantries. This is going to be a difficult enough game!! :hammer:

Welcome to new XMen :salute: and hello to returning XMen. :love:
Look forward to reading your responses and getting on with the game! :goodjob:

Some more remarks.
F10 will not help us much. In the original game were 11 rivals. mad-bax even talked about 12 in one of his posts. We will not know many of them before writing is around, so counting on techs just because five rivals have it is no good. On the other side counting on bronze working be available is no gamble. Every civ that doesn't have it does research it very fast. So we definitely shouldn't research BW ourselves.
Pottery is a must. We may be able to delay the first contact by 40,50 or more turns (remember we don't have to make contact when we see a rival). Having no granary for so long is a big waste of growth potential (and also production we can gain by MM).
After pottery we have the decision to take to research a first tier tech (BW or TW) or the only second tier available for us (writing). The min run on writing is much more attractive.

Some details how do achieve a granary on turn 20:
-Settle in spot set the labororer to the W BG so you don't forget it later. Build stays at warrior. Set science to 100% pottery (don't wait for the popup next turn). Worker W.
-Worker mines BG .
-Turn 5. Warrior->warrior. Warrior goes scouting, but not farther than about 4 tiles away from the capitol. He is only looking for good city sites. It may even be good to have him return,if we find a clear winner for the second city. Or even more extreme don't scout at all. After boundary expansion we should already see potential city locations. Later send a unit there just before the settler follows.
-Turn 7 mining complete worker goes directly to game (no road)
-Turn 8 Worker starts chopping the game.
-Turn 9 warrior completes ->settler. Warrior stays as MP to not waste any gold for lux slider.
-Turn 10. Growth and expansion. The governer sets the laborers correct, but we will only have 4 shields stored, because the game couldn't be worked in time (the governor switched first to a BG then production was calculated, then came expansion and the tile was reassigned).
Turn 14 (I think, but anyways it will be in time) pottery comes in settler prebuild changed to granary.
Turn 17 a crucial point. Chop will complete next turn MM away from the game to a BG. Otherwise we will not get the shields but three food. This would be bad (the food), because we would have to use a specialist to delay growth and would come to a point with 59 shields in store.
Turn 18 chop comes in MM from BG to hill to delay grow by one turn (or more stylish use a taxman for 1 turn, if everything worked out corectly I think you should reach then exactly 60 shields with no waste,but better check). Worker irrigates.
Turn 20 granary completes. MM so that the mined BG is open for the governor to assign on the growth turn, to make sure he doesn't assign the game (I know, priority on shields should also do the trick, but I don't trust this setting, definitely the governor will chose the strongest tile if a clear first is available). My next build would be a worker, which will complete in 2 turns. We urgently need more tiles improved. Also the other warrior should probably come back now. More scouting only after we have more units. But a settler directly or a rax and units are also possibilties (no more regulars). We should maintain 3 turn growth after that with always MM to max shields (the irrigated game needs to be worked on the growth turn so the governor can not select it, then MM away for one turn for more shields than MM back to game).
Connecting the wine is very low on my priority list,at least 3 mined and roaded BGs first.

I may have misstyped some numbers, so be sure to check in the game that the conditions are met (especially check the chopping worker).

Edit: BTW, I hate MM :cry: . And I'm much better in theory of MM than in actually executing it correctly.

Double post, but we are anyways far back in spam :crazyeye: .
Another approach would be to get military strong first. This has the advantage that we may avoid extortion attempts by our neighbours and by that delay contact and war, if we should see somebody early.
Still pottery first because we will delay the granary by only about 10 turns.
Build order: barracks then 50 shields worth of military units (probably 3 warriors and an archer, 5 warriors are more military strength but cost also more unit support) then granary.
Worker does fully improve two BG's then chop and irrigate game. MM is less critical in this case, we can afford to waste some shields. I didn't exactly calculate this case, but the chop should not go into the granary but the next unit (probably a settler).
Obviously we can not afford much more than min research after pottery in this case.

Edit: I should think of reading the discussion going on before I post, to see if I have something to add.
Re catapults: I think it's way too early to think about them. We first have to survive until we somehow can acquire math. With our limited trading abilities it will be even challenging to acquire masonry.
We may need cats, but we shouldn't plan around them this early. Our first goal should be to have enough cities to muster at least loads of vet warriors. Our trading goals should go towards BW->IW (next TW if we can afford it).
Masonry->Math only after that. In a plain game it would be easy to acquire everything needed, by early finding a couple of neighbours and use the leverage of alphabet->writing to get everything around. The variant will make this much more tricky if not impossible.

Klarius: I agree w/r o research: Pottery at max, then Writing at min.
I think your first take on opening builds is the best one. I'd lpreferrably like to see us have a second city when we meet the first AI civ.

I've just seen in the maintainance thread that mad-bax clarified some rules.
Important point: we are allowed to do gpt deals if the AI asks for them, even though we know we will break them. We will probably only be able to do one such deal in the game, so chose wisely. But this also means we maybe able to get a bunch of techs out of our first contact, if it's not too early.
I think it's important to discuss our options there, before the player playing at that time has to do decisions. We cannot go in the diplomacy screen first to check, so it has to be based just on time and the civ we will meet. I propose that the game is paused as soon as a foreign unit is visible and we first do a round of discussion whether to go for the one good trade immediately, try to delay or even try to keep our reputation intact for the next opponent. I will for sure do it, if it should be my turn.

@klarius - Believe it or not, I agree with much of what you've written. Every game I have played where I did not get Pottery and an early Granary, I have not done well in. I basically agree with your first 20 turns, although we should not ignore the fact that food is king and, as soon as the Granary is built, we need to get the game square irrigated and worked.

Where I am having difficulties with your line of thought is after the first 20. Rome has the most powerful Ancient Age Military Unit, The Legionairy, and I am having trouble understanding why you want to go to Writing at minimum.

First of all, if we can not count on getting Pottery from a trade, I am unclear why you think that we can get Iron Working from a trade?

Strategically, we have 2 clear choices here. We can hunker down and delay contact, as long as possible, with our adversaries until we have some strength to deal with them. OTOH, we could go and meet as many as possible and make trades, but then we will need to line them up and every 20 turns, start a new war. If we choose the first, then I think we had better seriously think about getting to Iron Working ourselves, or, look at The Wheel, which only Japan starts with, so that we have something to trade with. I have checked F10 and this is the line-up and starting techs.
Greece - Bronze Working and Alphabet.
France - Masonry and Alphabet.
England - Pottery and Alphabet.
Babylon - Bronze Working and Ceremonial Burial.
Russia - Pottery and Bronze Working.
Germany - Bronze Working and Warrior Code.
Aztecs - Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial.
Iroquois - Pottery and Ceremonial Burial.
India - Ceremonila Burial and Alphabet.
Japan - Ceremonial Burial and The Wheel.
America - Pottery and Masonry.
We are Rome and start with Alphabet and Warrior Code.
While Alphabet is usually a good starting tech because it is worth a lot, many of our enemies start with it and, at Emperor, it won't take long to get it passed around. We will never win the race to Writing at min. So, where does that leave us? I guess we have to decide whether we can accumulate enough Gold to trade for Bronze Working or Iron Working fast enough to ignore research or go for Iron Working ourselves.

My guess is that we will start with Greece and some of the European civs nearby. They nearly all have Alphabet already, and some have Bronze Working. One of them is bound to head for Iron Working, but when will we meet them and will we have enough to trade for it before we have to declare war on them?

I am trying to game this out beyond the first 20 turns because this scenario will require us to make hard decisions regarding priorities. I think we need to look out a ways and decide what we think may happen and base short-term decisions on our projected needs. Just my 0.02! :crazyeye:

@Leif
I don't have much experience with that many civs, but still writing is low priority for the AI's. With all the first tier techs getting passed around there is the danger that writing gets researched quite quick, because the AI's run out of military techs to research, but I still think the chances are quite good. IW will definitely be researched before we can reach it (with us researching pottery first and our malus on emperor). Even if we fail on writing and in the worst case have to research IW ourselves later, it's cheaper to research once we know civs that already have it.
But, by doing a min research phase we will build up money. I'm pretty sure we will get enough through this that we can buy BW and IW, if we have several contacts (and we can trade for contacts first if we have writing). And finally if you look on my previous post we can now also do gpt deals. That should definetely be enough to get the most required techs if played wisely.
Edit: Just to clarify, we sure can get pottery in a trade, but too late, IW isn't needed in the first 50 turns. We wouldn't have the production to build legions and due to the research not the money to upgrade.

@Leif
I don't have much experience with that many civs, but still writing is low priority for the AI's. With all the first tier techs getting passed around there is the danger that writing gets researched quite quick, because the AI's run out of military techs to research, but I still think the chances are quite good. IW will definitely be researched before we can reach it (with us researching pottery first and our malus on emperor). Even if we fail on writing and in the worst case have to research IW ourselves later, it's cheaper to research once we know civs that already have it.
But, by doing a min research phase we will build up money. I'm pretty sure we will get enough through this that we can buy BW and IW, if we have several contacts (and we can trade for contacts first if we have writing). And finally if you look on my previous post we can now also do gpt deals. That should definetely be enough to get the most required techs if played wisely.
This is the point I am trying to make. We MUST get Iron Working!! It is the key to our victory or, without it, defeat. Legionnairies are 3/3/1 units, equally suited to attack or defense. To prevail, we have to find a way to get there quickly. As I have said, in test games, I can get there in about 50 turns, including Pottery. Then we need to find iron, settle near it and road to it.

Imho, we have no option on IW. :eek: I am very reluctant to wait and hope that we can trade for it somehow, whenever that may be?? Again, I consider it a critical resource that we can not do without, unless you have a plan that shows a path to victory without them?? :blush:

Leif, well, I edited while you posted.
Note one point more:
-We will be able to trade for BW.
-Once we have a few cities I guarantee you we will be able to research IW in less than 10 turns if we could not trade for it before.

I agree with pottery at max first. The second tech is an interesting decision. We will likely be able to get bronze working from either Greece or Babylon who should be our nearest neighbours. It will likely take too long to find Russia and or England who start with pottery. However IW is absolutely vital in this variant. It think it might be best to go straight there.

Note that since Babylon and Greece are likely to be our nearest neighbours we will be facing their unique unit in an early war. I'd rather fight a European first if they are close enough.

I think we should consider the wheel as the second tech. It will reveal horses and only Japan starts with it. Japan is likely to be far away. That would give us a local monopoly.

The first worker turns should be to mine and road the bonus grass lands to the west. Next we have some options:

If we clear, irrigate and road the game forest we spend 17 worker turns. We will get a 4F, 0 or 1S (if its a BG), 2$ tile and the 10 shields from the chop. Without the chop we delay the granary by 2 turns. Tough call.
If we just road the woods, we get a 2F,2S,2$ tile for 6 worker turns.
If we road the hills with wines, we get a 2F,1S,2$ tile plus a luxury for 6 worker turns.
If we mine and road another BG on the river we get a 2F,2S,2$ tile for 9 worker turns.



The first warrior built should stay home as MP. A riot would be deadly.

Alan - on the cats - do you really want to sent horsemen against fortified greek 1.3.1s without artillery? Even Legions face a losing ratio without artillery. I have said it repeatedly - cats save our units lives. This will be VITAL in this game.

Adrian

@AdrianE
The chopping of the game is not primarily for the 10 shields, it's main purpose is to reveal the food bonus. If we are able to grow faster we can work more tiles and soon have more shields than when continuing to work the game. Or in short an old saying:
Population is power.
Only if we think we really need to be military strong within the first twenty turns we should prioritize shields over food.
A lux is not interesting as long as we have only 1 one city which will profit from it. So that's not a reason to road there early. I would think we should delay this road until we need it to connect a city.

Klarius

That's the crux of the decision isn't it: food or shields.

With the chopped irrigated game we get growth every 3 turns with a granary but we give up 2spt. Without we get growth every 5 turns.

Food is the most important in the early game so I think we should chop the forest ASAP as suggested.

Is there any way to road the first BG before we start the chop? I hate wasting an early worker turn and the extra $ helps with research. We could do 3 warriors then granary and the granary would complete on turn 23 or so.

Our second city should share the grassland game tile with Rome so we can use it every turn.

Guys : why don't we let Klarius take the opening 20 turns. He seems to have it well planned. Except we have to decide what we wanted researched 2nd.

Klarius

Is there any way to road the first BG before we start the chop? I hate wasting an early worker turn and the extra $ helps with research.


In fact there is a way to avoid the wasted worker turn and still have a granary on turn 20. But it will forfeit scouting completely.
The trick is only one warrior (MP) and road the BG first, by that we can get pottery one turn earlier and the settler prebuild will not expire. The chop doesn't go in the granary but is available the turn after the granary completes for a quick rax or settler. It's just a question, if we want to risk the 1 warrior gambit. A single barb threatening our worker could destroy all careful planning.
If you like it really hilarious I can give also a sequence (with the wasted worker turn) for granary on turn 19 (growth on 20). Only small problem is we have to disband all our military on turn 18.
IMO if we go over turn 20 for the granary we should really do the early military sequence and delay it all the way to turn 29. The first settler will not be much later only the 2nd and subsequent will be delayed quite a bit.
Edit: some minor corrections.

Guys : why don't we let Klarius take the opening 20 turns. He seems to have it well planned. Except we have to decide what we wanted researched 2nd.
I was thinking the same. We could get started and see if JackA shows up. I'll PM mad-bax pretty soon anyway if we don't hear from him in the next few hours. 48 hours no-show is long enough IMHO.

I think we're all agreed on Pottery first. Re the second research project, we have iron, wheel and writing as options.

In summary: Iron is what we really need to survive the second and subsequent wars before Chivalry. Wheel gets us early visibility of our horses, but on a low-scouting program we may not know much about the map to take advantage. It's also a useful trading tech given that Japan may not be around. Though I did start a random game as Rome yesterday for another project entirely, and Japan was the first civ I met :rolleyes: Writing is a good trading bet and takes us towards mapmaking.

My preference is with iron, I think. Trading options are rather limited in this game, so gambling on being able to buy iron seems a bit risky given its importance to us. At this stage we don't even know how many civs we are up against on our home continent, if any. And low scouting won't tell us much.

You should start without JackA, definitely. Every SGOTM seems to have a couple of no shows... and JackA may turn out to be one of them.

I guess I'll find out how late you will tolerate him being by keeping an eye on the team list Alan. ;)

Edit: Just to clarify, we sure can get pottery in a trade, but too late, IW isn't needed in the first 50 turns. We wouldn't have the production to build legions and due to the research not the money to upgrade.
I agree with this. However, our decision effects our build order. If we decide to go for IW directly through research, then we should be building a Barracks in our 2nd city and Warriors for upgrade. If we are to wait for IW to show up as a trade, then we must consider Archers so that we have some offensive punch. I think you know what I'm going to say. I would prefer to skip the Archers and build a pool of Warriors for upgrade to Legionnairies. It makes economic sense because of the power of the Legionnairie and the cost of building them versus Archers. In the longer term, our future depends upon our ability to field Legionnairies, so we should focus upon getting to them sooner rather than later.

I have no objections to Klarius starting us off on the first 20 turns. However, I think Adrian is right that we need to decide the research path we think we should follow. I am not keen about waiting to meet someone else to get to IW. Our stated goal is to avoid contact for as long as possible while we build a force that can, at least, provide us some measure of security. The critical tech paths here are going to be the military techs, so we should decide which we think we have to target and go after them. I do not expect that we will beat the AI to any of them, but we shouldn't allow ourselves to be held hostage by the AI either and end up having to get them anyway long after they will be as useful as they could be early on.

Population is power and I think we should do the 20 turn to Granary and then settler gambit. The first warrior off the line can do a quick walk around the hills to see if there is anything important to consider regarding terrain. To save gold, I think we should keep both the Warriors as MP after that and until we get our first settler.

Good discussion so far. There are going to be a lot of competing priorities in this game. Techs are going to be tough to come by with these rules and we'll need to be smart. The only problem is who we will trade them with if we aren't out meeting the other civs? :eek:

On another note, does anyone know if it would be allowed to trade techs for peace when the AI has but one city left, before we destroy them. I think there should be a reward for defeating them of getting at least some of their tech knowledge. What rampaging barbarian horde would ignore gifts of secret weapons if they destroyed an inferior race?? :mischief:

I was thinking the same. We could get started and see if JackA shows up.
Sorry, we cross posted. When I was working on one of my tomes last night ;) I saw JackA's name up on the board as members who were active on the site. Don't know why he didn't post?

My preference is with iron, I think. Trading options are rather limited in this game, so gambling on being able to buy iron seems a bit risky given its importance to us. At this stage we don't even know how many civs we are up against on our home continent, if any. And low scouting won't tell us much.
Alan, can't go right to IW because IW requires Bronze Working to research. Unless our first victim :) has BW, we can't get to IW without researching BW first. I would rather go 100% research, or as high as we can make it, through IW and get started on Legionairies, if we find Iron, of course. I just think trading is going to tougher than we seem to think in this game. However, I have been known to be wrong! :p :D

OK everybody seems to say early granary is good and I should do it. So that's my got it. I will stick to my very first plan, because all this sophisticated plannings (including this one) could lead to disaster. I really don't see any point in going for TW or BW after pottery. Even if we can't afford to buy them from our first contact we can research them much quicker if we have a sizeable empire. So writing at min will be next. I just look around a little bit more here and then start it right away. So be quick if you have any last minute recommendations. Otherwise expect the wooden spoon delivered in a few hours.

I think we should research pottery 1st then BW and IW. Yes BW even though we could likely buy it from Greece or Babylon.

Also after our first settler is out I think we will need units. Greece and Babylon are likely to be close assuming culturally linked starting. Greece we can hold off with a few spears - they will have warriors and hoplites. Babylon will have bowmen.

Long term - what government do we want? Monachy or Republic?

I think we will want Monarchy as it is not affected as much by war weariness.


Alan - what is the order of play?

I've had a PM from JackA. He feels this variant is a bridge too far at his current playing level, and asks to be excused. I suspect he's right, it will be a fast and brutal enough learning curve for some of us with more experience (speaking for myself, that is :eek: ). I wish him well and hope he finds a suitable SG or TDG to get involved in and raise his game.

I've PM'd mad-bax to alert him and we may, or may not, get a replacement. I think we should proceed regardless.

Roster:

If we bounce the save pack and forward across the Atlantic we get time to think and discuss between got-it's, so here's a roster for you to pick holes in:

Klarius UP
AdrianE waiting to work
Capt Buttkick ever ready
leif erikson will it get this far? :eek:
AlanH never ready

If we get another player they can slot in after me ... they should be so lucky :rolleyes:

Go Klarius :thumbsup:. I await your results with bated breath.

@AdrianE. Too late I already played. But really I didn't see any point. BW is 90 beakers emperor level at full cost. That would have taken us around 15 turns with the low commerce start I've chosen (no roads early). After the min gambit in writing we will have much more commerce. If we still don't have it it will probably take 4-6 turns, while researching writing then would still be very long.

The save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Xteam_SG003_BC3000_01.SAV)

Turnlog:
Turn 0 4000
Settle in place. Science 100% pottery. Worker W. Build warrior.
Turn 1 3950
Worker mines
Turn 2 3900
zzz
Turn 3 3850
zzz
Turn 4 3800
zzz
Turn 5 3750
warrior->warrior, warrior moves s on hill.
Turn 6 3700
warrior s on next hill spots cow at a sweetwater lake 4 s of capitol. Hm a good city site would be 3 s, but that's RCP 4.
Turn 7 3650
mine completes worker SW on game, warrior SW
Turn 8 3600
worker chops, warrior W
Turn 9 3550
2nd warrior completes MP, build to settler, warrior W
Turn 10 3500
Culture expansion, warrior NW
Turn 11 3450
Warrior N, Spots game also reachable only by RCP4 city, seems there is a pattern.
Turn 12 3400
Warrior NE on way home, decided we know enough of our surrounding.
Turn 13 3350
Warrior E
Turn 14 3300
Warrior E to capitol. Pottery comes in -> writing @ min., build to granarium
Turn 15 3250
Warrior fortifies in capitol
Turn 16 3200
zzzz
Turn 17 3150
Chop will come in 1 turn MM away from game.
Turn 18 3100
Chop completes, worker irrigates. Now is the decision time to really go for the wooden spoon and disband the warriors? I decide not and accept the one turn delay in granary completion.
Turn 19 3050
57 shields 8 food stored. Decide for the stylish method to delay growth, Capitol gets a scientist. Doesn't change our gold output but gets the granary with exactly 60 shields.
Turn 20 3000
Granary completes. MM to two unmined BGs so that the governor for sure selects the mined BG on growth. Build set to worker (debatable but we urgently need workers to get our capitol to full speed).
If going for the worker (and also if not) one should just hit enter, then do no MM for another 5 shields the next turn. After that MM to the game, irrigation will come in and we are already on the optimal growth pattern.
No wooden spoon in sight by now, sorry.

Our Land:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/x_team_3000_1.jpg

And our capitol proudly presenting it's granarium.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/x_team_3000_2.jpg

I agree monarchy is probably our preferred government, though I'm still getting my head around this variant. If we were able to limit warfare to one civ at a tim then we could probably cope in Republic. WW is on a per-enemy basis and drops when you defeat teh enemy it's associated with. I've successfully played continuous war against a succession of enemies in GOTMs without taking the lux slider above 30% (well, not much :rolleyes: ). The secret is to kill each one fast.

Since the score for our first 20 turns is posted already, I guess discussion about our second tech is moot ;)

[EDIT} Cross posted with Klarius. Well done! Granary just when you promised it. :thumbsup:

Roster:

Shout if you have problems ...

Klarius Played, resting
AdrianE UP
Capt Buttkick ready and waiting
leif erikson just waiting
AlanH just ...

To chime in on the government discussion.
I don't think we can afford the unit support cost in republic as long as we fight with legions and horses. We will need very big numbers. I think we will have monarchy available long before knights or cavs. So monarchy would be the way to go. If we should get republic earlier by some accident, we would have to reassess, if we can afford it. It may be possible if we manage to get big very quick.

@AdrianE. Too late I already played. But really I didn't see any point. BW is 90 beakers emperor level at full cost. That would have taken us around 15 turns with the low commerce start I've chosen (no roads early). After the min gambit in writing we will have much more commerce. If we still don't have it it will probably take 4-6 turns, while researching writing then would still be very long.

@Klarius - I guess I am missing the point here. If the Writing gambit is meant to give us something to trade in order to obtain BW and IW, who are we going to do that with unless we move out to meet other civs? The question I wish you would answer for me is what have we gained by researching Writing? This means that, at the earliest, Writing at min completes on turn 54, or 1650 BC. That means we are going to have to be at war on that turn if we trade it because we have to meet a civ to do so, and we will have Warriors or Archers to work with?

It is done and can not be undone, although I wish we had discussed it a little more fully. Since you are in the driver's seat here Klarius, I would appreciate some kind of summary of recommendations regarding where you think we are going now and what the tech research and unit builds should be for the next set of turns? I fear I will be unable to help out because I do not understand the concept of where we are going and why we are headed there?? :crazyeye: I can't work in unison with you from where I am.

Everything else looks fine and, perhaps, ring at 4 will be OK, but a little more difficult to assist with mutual defense, requiring more units to defend.

Looking forward to hearing the overall concept of what we're doing here??

Ok - I'll have a look at it tonight.

I think our next build should either be a warrior or a settler. I'd like a worker too but war is looming. We hate every foreigner!

Possible city sites are W,W, NW - work the forest game when not using the irrigated game, building a rax and units. RCP=4, but only 3 squares away so it is defensible. That's my preference.

S,S,S - will get the cow - RCP=4.5 but is the water fresh?


Note that we are on the southern hemisphere of the world - lands south of us should be empty.

Adrian

Ok - I'll have a look at it tonight.

I think our next build should either be a warrior or a settler. I'd like a worker too but war is looming. We hate every foreigner!
I agree, but think it should be a settler. Checked and it will be due in 10 turns.

Possible city sites are W,W, NW - work the forest game when not using the irrigated game, building a rax and units. RCP=4, but only 3 squares away so it is defensible. That's my preference.

S,S,S - will get the cow - RCP=4.5 but is the water fresh?
Look to the NE, NE and E and you should find a wheat on a river, fresh water. I would like to consider going up there, that is 3.0 distance. The water near the cow is not fresh, it is salt water. Please have a look at the attached map. It is a proposal.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/XMEN_3000BC_City_Plan_01.jpg
Note that we are on the southern hemisphere of the world - lands south of us should be empty.
Adrian
After we get the wheat, that is why I prioritized the cities to the north first, to get a defensive ring around us. I used ring distance 3-3.5. The more I think about it, the more I like it. After this, we can pick up a ring distance of 6 or 7 and get the other resources to the west and south.

Good luck Adrian!! :cool:

@Leif
What do we gain by researching writing?
First we gain writing. It's an important tech and we gain it cheap by doing a min research. It would be much more expensive to research it later at a reasonable rate.
Yes we want to meet other civs, but not now. The best time would be the turn we achieve writing, but I don't think it will be so late. If you seek for other civs it normally takes you only 20-30 turns to find some.
The other point for doing min research is building up a bankroll so you can trade for whatever comes on the table when you meet a civ. Min research only makes sense for an expensive tech.
I mentioned already that the next build I like would be a worker. After that it's up to how nervous the next driver is. Either directly to settler (but we still have only two reg warriors) or barracks and units while the population is building up to settler factory size levels.
If we do get the worker we will be able to improve tiles to get our shield and commerce production up. If we get another 10-20 turns grace period w/o war we will get to a point where we can buy a cheap tech. If we should get all the time until writing finishes, we will get many options. Even if we can't trade writing because it's known already we will have some money. As I already mentioned above, after buying BW we should be able to research IW in less than 10 turns. We can also try to trade contacts to find somebody who hasn't writing yet. We also have the option to immediately shoot our reputation by doing a gpt deal for more techs and immediately declare war.
Another point is that we have good chances that nobody is interested in talking to us, because we don't have any interesting techs to offer. We may see units from more than one civ passing through our lands. If somebody dials us up very early its probably somebody w/o alphabet offering some tech for it. A very aggressive civ might want to extort something. Ai's don't dial you up for no reason. So if we don't make contact there is a good chance that the first contact is already with a nice (or ugly) deal.
So my recommendation is wait and see. Hope that we have seen more than one civ when the time for the first declaration comes. And I'm pretty sure we will have seen at least one foreign unit by the time the min gambit is over, which btw is not in the next two turnsets so discussion what to research next doesn't make much sense now. But still if we are able to trade for the techs we want (BW,IW and TW), I would try literature, if we miss IW (and I'm still convinced we get BW) then IW @max.
Don't initiate contact yourself if there aren't any good reasons (one reason could be that we have seen already two civs and one looks less nasty than the other, so declare first on the easier opponent).
As long as we are not at war we should build our empire. The capitol will be able to provide initial units, so core cities should get a barracks first except maybe one or two going for a granary. But that's all strategy to discuss.

Well, I have to get faster I think, a lot happened while I posted.
@Leif a settler is not due in 10 if changed directly it will be 6 or 7. Note that we will get 10 shields in the next two turns already even if it says 3 per turn now.
I didn't analyse your dotmap thoroughly, but 7 should go first. That's where we improve tiles now and have already a food bonus to share. This site can use the game at least 1 out of three turns and by that rapidly grow to size 2 or make a worker. The weat on your site 1 is only beneficial when we get around to irrigate it.
@Adrian I'm very much against any regular units any more, if you want units please make a barracks first due in 5 or 4, if you forfeit rapid growth.
Still I'm for worker because we will work unimproved tiles for a long time if not.

Turn log

Pre-turn: Change worker to warrior

2950BC - nothing
2900BC - warrior -> settler, worker builds road
2850BC - send new warrior N to scout a bit
2800BC - lux slider to 10%
IBT - Greek warrior appears E,SE,SE of Rome !!!!!!!!
2750BC - worker to mined BG, completely ignore Greek warrior and hope he goes away - recall our scouting warrior in case
IBT - Greek warrior goes N
2710BC - IBT Greek warrior dissappears to E
2670BC - lux to 20%
2630BC - settler completes, start barracks
2590BC - worker to wines
2550BC - found Veii in spot 7

I picked location 7 because it is on fresh water, connected to the road network and can share the irrigated game when it is not used by Rome. It is at distance 3.5.

Both cities are working on barracks. We might want to shift the irrigated game to Veii for 5 turns to quickly grow. Both cities are building barracks. That can be changed.

Next player

Good turns, Adrian. Like your friendly attitude to the Greeks. :D

Roster:

Klarius thinking
AdrianE just played
Capt Buttkick UP
leif erikson ready on deck
AlanH not quite ready

Alan,
If you are still online, could you please download Adrian's save and reload it. I'm getting the same error that I got in SGOTM2, that the 2550BC save is an invalid save file.
Thanks, in advance.

@Klarius - Thanks for the explaination, though I am still a little bit lost in all this. Is our primary goal early expansion or is it building military, or both? Do we intend to set up certain cities for specific tasks; such as unit building, worker farms, settler factories, etc. Those production goals will drive what improvements get built in a city and keep our maintenance costs down. Or is it intended that we have Granaries and Barracks in each of our cities? I'm looking for organization and goals if we have any. It seems that we are concerning ourselves with what happens in the next 10 turns and not looking beyond, at the bigger picture. But that could be my inexperience as well. Things are not fitting together in my mind.

Good turns Adrian, looks like we are on our way. Bet you were happy the Greeks didn't make a house call!! :lol:

Alan,
If you are still online, could you please download Adrian's save and reload it. I'm getting the same error that I got in SGOTM2, that the 2550BC save is an invalid save file.
Thanks, in advance.
I also can't load the save :cry:

I'm at work so I won't be able to pick up the save for a few hours yet anyway.
I agree with Leif that we need to at least try to plan ahead more than 10 turns (although for all our efforts, we weren't that well rewarded in sgotm2 :lol: ).

That said, it's been excellent work so far by our opening players :goodjob:

I agree with rax and then some units while Rome grows to Settler factory size. Hopefully we'll have Babs to the N and that they won't talk to us either so our Writing gamble can really pay off. If one of them decides to talk, at least (like klarius said) we'll have easy research on IW.

I think we should consider another gamble after IW: setting up a city with a GL prebuild and then do Lit at minimum.

Edit: also, with Greece next door, I think we should go with Adrian's suggestion of Cats. I've used Cats in a few games where I hadn't resources around my back door (most noticeably my first diety win came from a Cat/Num mercs combo playing as Carth). With 3 reg defenders in a city, a 12-cat stack will be able to redline them most of the time. They should fall for our vet Legs then.

Important change in the Rules w/r to contact:

If an opponent that you have not made contact with yet tries to extort gold, maps or techs from you, then contact is only made if you give in to the demand. If you do not give in to the demand, then we can assume that diplomatic relations have not been established.

The rules as stated by mad-bax are in this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2005617&postcount=2)

@Klarius - Thanks for the explaination, though I am still a little bit lost in all this. Is our primary goal early expansion or is it building military, or both? Do we intend to set up certain cities for specific tasks; such as unit building, worker farms, settler factories, etc. Those production goals will drive what improvements get built in a city and keep our maintenance costs down. Or is it intended that we have Granaries and Barracks in each of our cities? I'm looking for organization and goals if we have any. It seems that we are concerning ourselves with what happens in the next 10 turns and not looking beyond, at the bigger picture. But that could be my inexperience as well. Things are not fitting together in my mind.

I'm not a big strategist like the top tier players, so I work mostly on simple rules.
For the early game the main rule normally is:
Bigger is better. Expand at the rate you can w/o violating any restrictions coming up. This doesn't mean going crazy on settler production necessarily. Developing the core is also a priority, because it will boost your expansion some time later. For our variant we have to prepare to be able to produce units in big numbers. We are militaristic so a rax is
only 20 shields. For me that means a rax in every core city. Also I haven't seen any potential city site which would really give a classical worker pump or second settler pump. The capitol alone can not give all the workers (did I mention anywhere that we urgently need more workers :confused: :crazyeye: ) and settlers we need, so some of the other cities will have to help. Another granary or two in cities with at least one food bonus would be helpful. But granaries are expensive at 60 shields (= a rax and 4 vet warriors). So we will not be able to have them everywhere in short time (if we get the chance I wouldn't mind having one in every core city, the maintenance is not really an issue, but that's only wishful thinking).
So my near term plan would be to go for barracks everywhere first and produce vet warriors at least until they grow a bit. Produce workers when it seems apropriate (in the near term probably already at or shortly after growth to size 2, as long as the cities can do 2 shields on size one, but that should be assessed on a case to case basis). When we have a few more cities, look for sites we can take of the warrior production and can benefit from granaries.
A priority is to get the capitol region to high production and to road to every city (did I already mention workers ?). Improving tiles only workable by outlying cities is lower priority. The capitol needs the ability to churn out 10 better 11 (for MM a 11-9-11 cycle) shields at size 5 ASAP, so we need 5 mined BG at least (mined wine hill would also count, but takes many worker turns). More improved tiles also don't hurt, we can share them out to the outer cities.
Some time in the future we may like to grow the capitol to a decent size (especially if we should enter a despotic golden age, which could make the capitol a real powerhouse). But then we should have even more tiles improved (workers?) and some other cities with granaries and food bonus (make this at least one, I don't think it will be more than two nearterm).
As soon as we enter war we have to look what our situation is at the time. Nearterm there is no benefit attacking the AI's on there home turf, so we should only actively defend. Try to kill as many enemies as possible on favourable ground. Set up killing zones, have our units always on the best defense tiles available. It would be very good if our first enemy would not be the greeks with their defensively overpowered Hoplite. Also the greeks are probably not a good first trading partner. We will probably have to pay cash for BW and don't have it now. So if some weakling steps by, we may want to declare ourselves, but prefered would still be as late as possible. After that and the one trade there, we could dial up greece to see what they got. But there's no point doing so if we already spent all our money. That's all wild guesses. It can happen that greece will dial us up next turn to extort some gold. Then we have to live with it, if they don't like us rebuffing it.
Another point: In the near future we could start to look also actively for other civs. But don't go wild on it. A lone warrior, leisurely walking north would be good enough for me. We shouldn't risk more units on this. It's not that far till we have writing and then either we will trade it or it is around anyways. After that communications trading between the AI's will quickly fill our diplo screen. Only if we only know greece at this point and aren't at war already, we should consider spending money on communications ourselves. And we will know if greece has writing already immediately. If not they will dial us up for sure, offering some minor tech for writing. If they are still silent, we had bad luck and they researched it already. Again I'm going too much into things which will probably be totally different. :lol:
And before I forget, we need more workers :crazyeye:

I'm at work so I won't be able to pick up the save for a few hours yet anyway.
I agree with Leif that we need to at least try to plan ahead more than 10 turns (although for all our efforts, we weren't that well rewarded in sgotm2 :lol: ).

That said, it's been excellent work so far by our opening players :goodjob:

I agree with rax and then some units while Rome grows to Settler factory size. Hopefully we'll have Babs to the N and that they won't talk to us either so our Writing gamble can really pay off. If one of them decides to talk, at least (like klarius said) we'll have easy research on IW.

I think we should consider another gamble after IW: setting up a city with a GL prebuild and then do Lit at minimum.

Edit: also, with Greece next door, I think we should go with Adrian's suggestion of Cats. I've used Cats in a few games where I hadn't resources around my back door (most noticeably my first diety win came from a Cat/Num mercs combo playing as Carth). With 3 reg defenders in a city, a 12-cat stack will be able to redline them most of the time. They should fall for our vet Legs then.

Rax and some units, sure thing, but please also a worker before the next settler. We can (and should) have three turn growth rate so that's not much delay.
Lit @ min, will probably not be good enough if writing should be already around some time when we get it. That's a tricky thing, even if we can buy IW. We will be broke at that point want money for upgrades and should do more than min. Even though its usually not a good idea, I probably would go for only partial (40-50%) on lit, if this gives us something like 20 turns and still gives some gold for an upgrade every 2-3 turns. But I'm not able to predict how our commerce will really be at that time. We have a lot of river tiles so it could be quite good (I decided not to mention workers at this point, its getting old :lol: ).
Cats: We probably need some against greece cities, but still they are far away. Sure would be nice if we could just acquire all techs we need from the Great Library, but we cannot rely on this. That's another reason to go better than min on lit. We may need to do more research faster than 40 turns after our current gambit. But really that's all to decide only after we have writing, probably are at war and know more about the tech situation.

I also can't load the save :cry:
I've re-uploaded it. It's on the submissions page [http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Xteam_SG003_BC2550_02.SAV]here[/url]

Adrian, if you really need to use IE, here's what you can do to make your uploaded saves readable by Windblows users:

Select File Helpers in IE Preferences. Hit the Add... button. Fill in the top fields as shown below. Hit Browse and select a copy of the Civ3 application. That should fill in the File type and creator fields. Click Binary data, change the how to handle to Save to File. Click OK.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/IE_SAV_Helper.gif

One note on city placement. I didn't have the time to analyse this yesterday (it was getting quite late at GMT+2), but I looked now on the posts here. I think we shouldn't stick strictly to the RCP 3 pattern. Having one or two cities on RCP 4 does not influence the corruption on the inner ring, it is only bad for these cities (they still are quite productive) and the second ring and it's a long way till we have a second ring. It's really a pity that this is not C3C.
I don't like the E and NE region as long as we don't have much more units.
There are mountains adjacent to cities, which will need defenders on them in addition to the units in the towns. Westerly and southish directions look better to me. But as always the question is when and who will we fight.
Anyways, at some time, not in the far distant future we will fight Greece and it's a horror :mad: to get a fortified Hoplite out of a mountain (I know, cats, but as I already noted that's quite some time till we get them). For the next two or three cities I would rather settle away from any trouble.
Edit: Still another random not comming to my mind.
MGLs: if we should be lucky to generate a MGL in any early war, I would definitely try to save him for the Great Library and also even use him for it, if a build is two turns away from completion. TGL would make the variant so much easier that I easily would forfeit several MGLs for it.

One note on city placement. I didn't have the time to analyse this yesterday (it was getting quite late at GMT+2), but I looked now on the posts here. I think we shouldn't stick strictly to the RCP 3 pattern. Having one or two cities on RCP 4 does not influence the corruption on the inner ring, it is only bad for these cities (they still are quite productive) and the second ring and it's a long way till we have a second ring. It's really a pity that this is not C3C.

I'm sorry but I really disagree with you on RCP and going with some cities to distance 4. While it will not bother the distance 3 cities, it will have a major impact on the next ring, and that ring could include up to 16 cities. You have said how important our ability to produce units will be, then you have to try to stick with the RCP distances for that to happen. If not, the second ring will be more corrupt, and RCP is the one advantage we need to use playing vanilla. If you have not read it yet, please take a minute to read this article from the War Academy.
<< RCP Explained >> (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_ring_city.shtml) Also, within the article is a link to another article by Alexman that further explains corruption.

Personally, I do not like C3C because of the corruption model changes. But that is another whole thread and not relevent here.

While it will not bother the distance 3 cities, it will have a major impact on the next ringSorry, that's not the case. The second ring will have corruption rank equal to the number of cities closer than its radius. It doesn't care where those cities are, just that they are closer. The only affected cities will be the ones at distance 4. They will have rank equal to the number of cities at distance 3. If they were at distance 3.x they would have rank 1.

I'm sorry but I really disagree with you on RCP and going with some cities to distance 4. While it will not bother the distance 3 cities, it will have a major impact on the next ring, and that ring could include up to 16 cities. You have said how important our ability to produce units will be, then you have to try to stick with the RCP distances for that to happen. If not, the second ring will be more corrupt, and RCP is the one advantage we need to use playing vanilla. If you have not read it yet, please take a minute to read this article from the War Academy.
<< RCP Explained >> (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_ring_city.shtml) Also, within the article is a link to another article by Alexman that further explains corruption.

Personally, I do not like C3C because of the corruption model changes. But that is another whole thread and not relevent here.

If we just replace a RCP 3 site by a RCP 4 one, the influence on the second ring is zero. It's just a question how many cities are nearer to the palace than the second ring. I only mentioned the influence on the second ring, because I thought of placing an additional city near the cow. This would bring the rank of the second ring from 8 to 9, which is still less than with a tight RCP4 ring (which I frequently use, when I have the dirt) and should feature bearable corruption.
Another point is that a tight RCP3 configuration, at least as I play it, normally leads to a FP in the first ring and palace jump to a looser built ring, to fully exploit the rank corruption bug (at least to the degree allowed). With some leader luck this could well happen before the second ring even completes.
Edit: AlanH was faster, but mine is more detailed :lol:

@Alan and Klarius - Thanks, I 'm off for my hole again!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

@Alan and Klarius - Thanks, I 'm off for my hole again!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Well, Leif you can come out again. This misinterpretation of the RCP I've seen many times on these forums and by otherwise very good players. ;)

We'd better start digging to get Leif out of his hole in time for his turns! The problem is also one of terminology. You could argue that the cities at radius 4 *are* the second ring, since for sure they are not in the first ring. Then the next ring becomes the third ring. Doesn't change the effect, just adds to the confusion :confused:

We'd better start digging to get Leif out of his hole in time for his turns! The problem is also one of terminology. You could argue that the cities at radius 4 *are* the second ring, since for sure they are not in the first ring. Then the next ring becomes the third ring. Doesn't change the effect, just adds to the confusion :confused:
Thanks Klarius and Alan. Your point above is actually what I was thinking when I wrote and my concern was an elevated level of corruption in what I saw as the ring that would contain our largest number of cities, if the terrain supports that, that is.

I have been stewing all morning so have decided to just write what is on my mind and get it out for discussion. While I have played many a game of civ3, and not always successfully I might add, one of the shortcomings I have found in my play is the tendency to wait too long before I begin conquest. Strategically, time is never my ally. I fear that every turn we do not work towards IW and our UU is time we are losing. I would hate to see our Legions facing Pikemen. :wallbash: I had hoped that by the time we completed the AA we would have defeated at least two, and hopefully, three opponents.

My main consideration here is that, at Emperor level, the AI has production and research bonuses. I know we can't keep up with them in research and the inability to trade will effect how quickly we can change ages and get to Chivalry (Knights) and Military Tradition (Cavalry). At the same time, we have to be careful in trading contacts because that will speed the tech pace of the AI. So I think we have to try to slow the AI tech pace as much as we can and get ourselves our strongest unit as fast as we can so we have a chance at competing. Let's face it, we really can't even form alliances to help us defeat the AI. :eek:

With all that in mind, I am also concerned about the discussion to go for the Great Library. It is going to require an awful lot of resources, unless we get a Great Leader, but we have to have Legions and fight to do that. While it would be nice to get it, I think we should also consider the possibility of using it as an insurance policy. Let another civ build it and leave it to capture if we are way behind in tech later in the game. :mischief: As long as we don't get Education, well, I'm sure you know how it works.

Lastly, we have never discussed our objective for victory, should we survive of course. :hammer: Conquest seems to be the victory condition of the day here as we are required to destroy the other civs as we meet them. Domination is a possibility, if we can produce enough settlers. Diplo would be very interesting!! :p

OK, that is what has been on my mind. To me, how we decide these questions will reflect in how we expand and what we produce, and how we wage war. ;)

Conquest and/or domination seem to be the only viable victory conditions, IMO.

We have already played 30 turns. Each AI is likely to have researched 2 techs. If they have found each other (and likely they have) we are already behind.

I think we need to explore a bit and find a few other civs but not actually contact them. If the AI's let us choose the intial contact, we can talk to our first victim, get what we can and declare war, then quickly contact multiple other civs to trade with.

Perhaps we shouldn't toast our reputation on the first war. We should save it for when it matters.

Adrian

Well, I never really thought of anything else but conquest, but in fact everything is possible. But you should be aware that with this variant its not a question of: do some tech trading in AA, get ahead in MA then roll over the AI's quickly.
We have neither the ability to do real good trades nor can we use pointy-stick research. And our stinkin' UU doesn't help a bit in early wars. It's defense bonus is quite worthless, only helps in faster generating elites. Ok it can also be used for pillaging and we should probably also do this, but they are not much better for that than a stack of spears.
If we should have to go against the greeks first this will go on for thousands of years probably. Normally I wouldn't consider an all out war against greeks before knights are around, but we will be forced to that sooner or later. I don't think it makes much sense to impale lots of legions on hoplites. Hoplites need no resources so pillaging doesn't help. By that they are even worse than pikes.
If we manage to build a nice empire we will be able to research faster than the AI even on emperor level, but not in a short timeframe. The real big prize would be to score the Great Library, which could bring us back on the fast track. But I doubt we can build it in time. So only a MGL could do it. Our best option for the next few rounds is IMO to defend actively. That's also the best way to eventually generate leaders. Attack enemies in the open. Don't go for cities. Then we have to hope for still a few good trades, to get the most important AA techs. I would go for literature, because the chance for TGL should be kept. If we don't get it, this could well mean that we are on the defense for a long time. We will be able to kill of some weeker opponents, but there will also be a few tough ones.

Scouting for other civs would be a good thing now. But as I already said somewhere above don't use to many units for it. We need at least three or four cities more before we even can muster enough warriors. Then we will also need archers. I don't like to see any of our UU in action before we have a nice core, so that our golden age is not completely wasted. We may not be able to help it or be even defeated before, but that's unlikely.
Still our main priority at this time should be to grow, more cities mean more warriors, archers and later legions horses and cats, also more commerce for science or tech trading.
One more point: capturing cities doesn't help us anything as long as we have open land to settle. Sure there maybe some strategic cities which should be destroyed, but other than that we shouldn't go in enemy territory early. Let them build some infrastructure and if we run out of space we can get some nicely prepared land.

my concern was an elevated level of corruption in what I saw as the ring that would contain our largest number of citiesNooooh! You've misunderstood me again. Sorry if I'm being obscure! If a 7 or 8 ring is where the big number of cities is that you are referring to, and there are N cities within that radius at 3 or 4 or 5 from Rome, then it doesn't matter what distances those nearer cities are at. All your 7 or 8 radius ring of cities will be at corruption rank N+1.

We *can* set up alliances once we have Writing, and we *can* trade once we know more than one civ. We are only obliged to be at war with one civ at any time, until 20 turns are up. So we can make alliances and trade with others we contact after the first contact/declaration.

I think AdrianE is right, we don't seem to be an attractive trading partner. Greece starts with Alphabet and Bronze, and probably already has our Warrior Code otherwise they'd have called us up. So they've met another militaristic nation and both our starting techs are out there.

We may be able to scout freely now, pick and choose our first, and maybe our second, victim, preferably some distance away, and make alliances with the others to stir up a local war. Our first victim - preferably not Greece - can sell us Bronze if and when we have some cash. Then we can meet and greet the others in an order we choose, and we'll know when iron is on the table.

Our first war is likely to be fought with archers. We don't want them to be up against hoplites, which is why we need to find another first victim before we get enough cash for Greece to call us up just to demand ransom.

So it now seems a good idea to go scouting. Comments?

[EDIT} Cross posted with Klarius. I agree our first war will be defensive, but we still need archers for that. I have never been optimistic about sitting in our cities and letting the AI impale themselves on spears. Eventually you run out of spears. So before we have to declare war we need at least a few archers to actively defend our space.

Our first war is likely to be fought with archers. We don't want them to be up against hoplites, which is why we need to find another first victim before we get enough cash for Greece to call us up just to demand ransom.

So it now seems a good idea to go scouting. Comments?
As I already said above, yes I think its about time. But when I saw your post about enough cash, it comes to my mind that it maybe even high time or too late (sorry about that, probably my fault not to think about that earlier). We are constantly building up money, at some point greece (how do they know :confused: but they do), will think that we have enough to afford a cheap tech from them and will offer a tech for 100 gold or so. So that's a tricky question what to do, we want to keep our money but if we don't burn it greece will call.
Edit:
To elaborate something more about that:
If they have CB, they will call at a time already where we cannot afford BW from them with cash. So in addition to being at war with an enemy which we would like to hold off, we will probably also not be able to acquire BW w/o shooting our rep. If this should happen I would recommend no trade and find some other partner, so we can at least trade at our conditions (wait till we have enough cash, or make a big gpt deal and declare).

Yes. Cash is only useful when you spend it. We need to find more places to spend it.

Nooooh! You've misunderstood me again. Sorry if I'm being obscure! If a 7 or 8 ring is where the big number of cities is that you are referring to, and there are N cities within that radius at 3 or 4 or 5 from Rome, then it doesn't matter what distances those nearer cities are at. All your 7 or 8 radius ring of cities will be at corruption rank N+1.
No, I understood you, I just wasn't clear when I wrote the reply. Thanks, I'll learn it yet! :blush:
We *can* set up alliances once we have Writing, and we *can* trade once we know more than one civ. We are only obliged to be at war with one civ at any time, until 20 turns are up. So we can make alliances and trade with others we contact after the first contact/declaration.
I thought we needed embassies to make alliances. Our building them is forbidden in the rules, isn't it? We can trade, but to do so requires that we declare war on the first we meet and then 20 turns later, on the second. During the interval, we can trade all we can afford. I think that if we meet one, we might as well meet as many as possible and trade as much as we can.
Our first war is likely to be fought with archers. We don't want them to be up against hoplites, which is why we need to find another first victim before we get enough cash for Greece to call us up just to demand ransom.

So it now seems a good idea to go scouting. Comments?

[EDIT} Cross posted with Klarius. I agree our first war will be defensive, but we still need archers for that. I have never been optimistic about sitting in our cities and letting the AI impale themselves on spears. Eventually you run out of spears. So before we have to declare war we need at least a few archers to actively defend our space.
I agree with this, hunkering down will only lead to disaster. Expansion and some military early is what I think we need. As soon as we can find Iron Working, I think we should acquire it.

@Klarius - I don't quite understand why you think the UU is useless. It attacks like a sword and defends like a pike, that seems useful to me considering the sword rush we did last SGOTM. Perhaps the early Golden Age would be less than helpful.
edit - unless you mean against the Greeks, that I can understand.

I thought we needed embassies to make alliances. Our building them is forbidden in the rules, isn't it?
Darn it! You're right! However, presumably we can't burn down any embassies that the AI build in Rome. The rules don't stop us making alliances in that instance.

Darn it! You're right! However, presumably we can't burn down any embassies that the AI build in Rome. The rules don't stop us making alliances in that instance.
You're correct, in that instance we can make alliances. Until turn 20 hits and we have to declare war on them. I don't think there will be any more alliances after the first time we do that!! ;)

@Klarius - I don't quite understand why you think the UU is useless. It attacks like a sword and defends like a pike, that seems useful to me considering the sword rush we did last SGOTM. Perhaps the early Golden Age would be less than helpful.
edit - unless you mean against the Greeks, that I can understand.
Well I was a bit harsh versus our UU, but the extra defense doesn't help much at least. We don't want units to defend we want to attack other units, even in a defensive war. You don't loose many swords in a sword rush to counterattacks, if you play it smart. It's usually no problem to get the few counterattack units an AI produces.
You loose even less legions, that's an advantage, but not much. For a purely defensive unit it would be too expensive it's offense is not better than swords and it forces you to trigger a golden age as soon as you want to use swords.
And now we get hoplites as neighbors. We will need more than one of our UU to defeat a hoplite if it has any defense bonus. So don't think of stacks of 6-8 swords, rather 10-15 for a city and many of them will be lost not just redlined. Sword stacks of this size have not much to fear from the AI, losing more than 1 or 2 on the way to their target usually means you haven't played well.
Okay there is another advantage our unit has. You will have the warm feeling that it's save to go out to attack, because your units are so strong on defense. That may help if you usually don't do it in time. But really in this variant the right time is probably later than usual.
Edit: One more point to our strategy, if we should get to war with the greeks we should look to it to trigger their golden age right away, e.g. have a reg warrior attack a hoplite. The later it comes the more hoplites we will have to face, when we are finally ready to attack. On the defensive war part it's rather better to have the AI produce more units. You get more chances to promote your units, if the AI plays it's usual lousy attack startegy. Downside is that it also boosts their science, so we may get behind even more.

I'm sorry for leaving you out to dry. I uinexpectadly had some friends of ours come over last evening and couldn't to the game. I got to work now so if someone else wants to pick up the game to move us forward, I fully understand.
Otherwise, I'll pick it up and play this evening.

@Capt Buttkick
If you can play this evening I see no reason to change the roster this early. Otherwise post in time so that AlanH can take it.
Edit: Just looked it up Leif would be next.
Edit2: Just saw that it looks like I'm trying to make decisions here. That's up to our MGL AlanH. Just my thoughts.

From the maintenance thread:


Sir Bugsy, grs. I understand your concern. The system I have adopted was first proposed by Cartouche Bee. If I defined contact as an opponent appearing on F4, then the timeframes for meeting each Civ, and the order in which you meet them would be a product of dumb luck only. In this particular game it makes the difference between winning and losing. By giving the player some minimal control over contact it is possible to reduce the element of luck. This is a competition, and therefore pragmatic decisions must be taken from time to time to create some semblance of a level playing field. I invested over 100 hours of playing time in trying to make this game fair and winnable. ATM it looks like I did half a job.

As it stands, first contact will be the same for every team, and it will be made within 3 or 4 turns of each other. There may be the odd exception where the date differs by more, but I can't circumvent the RNG and peoples choices completely.

So in short I guess I'm saying "trust me".
Maybe somebody should tell mad-bax that spoilers are forbidden in the maintenance thread :lol:
What I learn from this is that the Greeks are near and everybody else is far away, or behind a choke controled by the Greeks. Our only chance to meet another civ early would probably have been to aggresively scout from the very beginning. Now it's probably too late to find somebody else. Nevertheless we should try.
I also learn that I shouldn't think so much in terms of usual happenings in random games, but try to look into the mind of mad-bax. In hindsight it's quite logic for a fair game in the variant. Even the Greeks are logic. Nobody will be able to defeat them with an early lucky archer or warrior rush.

Edit2: Just saw that it looks like I'm trying to make decisions here. That's up to our MGL AlanH. Just my thoughts.
.... And very good thoughts. Not a problem, I agree. By the time leif could pick it up we'll already be half way to Norway's evening, so I vote we let the Captain continue. If he has to call off for any reason today then there's still time for leif to take it if he wants to.

Re. m-b's statement, I'm not sure I take the same meaning from it. Another interpretation is that maybe there *is* another civ out there, heading our way, and that when we meet them they'll make contact with us, forcing the first war. Since most people would take the same view as us of the Greeks and ignore them, most teams will make first contact when the second civ wanders into view.

Thanks, I'll get to it as soon as I can, probably less than 5 hours.

If we see another civ in my turns, I'll probably try to leave them alone as well. We've still got a few turns left til we get Writing and I think it's worth a gamble.
Any threats made by the AI will be refused as otherwise I'd just have to declare on them anyway.
I'll try to slot a worker in asap (I think klarius mentioned somewhere that we need more workers :p).

Thanks, I'll get to it as soon as I can, probably less than 5 hours.

If we see another civ in my turns, I'll probably try to leave them alone as well. We've still got a few turns left til we get Writing and I think it's worth a gamble.
Any threats made by the AI will be refused as otherwise I'd just have to declare on them anyway.
I'll try to slot a worker in asap (I think klarius mentioned somewhere that we need more workers :p).

You must have read my spam quite thoroughly, to have found this fine point with the worker :lol: .

If we should really be lucky to meet another civ, which I don't believe any more according to my last post, you will probably not have the option to wait. They are even more likely to call for a tech deal or tech for gold deal than the Greeks. So I think it would be better to jump in right away (okay first think about who it is and what they could have).
One could optimize our gpt before trade, though that may be slightly against the spirit of this variant, to better see what we could afford (not much to optimize, probably only sliders to 0). But I would go for a gpt deal only if we can afford BW by cash (or techs) and then get IW by gpt (probably not possible in your turn set). Otherwise safe our reputation for another deal. To be able to afford BW by cash it has to be already towards the end of your turn set. It will probably need something like 140-160 gold at face value.
Best of luck!

If we should really be lucky to meet another civ, which I don't believe any more according to my last postDid you read mine? What do you think? It's already 6 turns since we met the Greeks. It seems to me that m-b's subliminal message is not about the Greeks.

Good morning! I think I hear the beating of war drums this morning on the rising mist. I am beginning to shake to the beat with fear that, as the next one up, I may have to defend our realm against an unknown enemy, hopefully not the Greeks, with a handful of warriors. :eek:

Capt., as a special favor to me, would you please try to build an archer or two, just in case?? ;) As long as it doesn't delay expansion too much. :rockon:

Hopefully, the civ we meet will have its domain well away from ours so that it requires more time to get its units over to visit with us. :rolleyes:

I wish you luck Capt., and anxiously await your turn log and after action report!! :D :coffee:

Did you read mine? What do you think? It's already 6 turns since we met the Greeks. It seems to me that m-b's subliminal message is not about the Greeks.

It's already 30 turns into the game. To predict the moves of two civs for 30 turns would be a rather bold move of mad-bax. We haven't scouted to the north or west (the greeks came from the east), others may have at least a little even with the variant. That doesn't fit mad-bax' prediction of within 3-4 turns (okay that's bold already).

Did you read mine? What do you think? It's already 6 turns since we met the Greeks. It seems to me that m-b's subliminal message is not about the Greeks.
I'm praying you are right. If M-B set it up for everyone to meet the same civ first, it looks like the Greeks to me. If there is another around, it would be quite a good feat for him to work it so that we should all meet that civ within 3 or 4 turns of each other. That would be nice because the Greeks have the tech we need to advance, so meeting a second civ would allow us 20 turns to work with the Greeks, instead of having to fight them first.

I think we will find out soon enough for certain! :eek:

edit - I just went to the Maintenance thread and Sir Bugsy's and grs' comments are more enlightening. I am more hopeful for Alan's scenario.

To predict the moves of two civs for 30 turns would be a rather bold move of mad-bax.Not really. He said he spent 100 hours play testing this game. Most of that will have been trying different openings. Each AI civ is only diverted onto alternative development and exploration paths once it meets others. Before that I think the AI actions are largely predictable.

Not really. He said he spent 100 hours play testing this game. Most of that will have been trying different openings. Each AI civ is only diverted onto alternative development and exploration paths once it meets others. Before that I think the AI actions are largely predictable.
Well, I'm pretty sure we will know after the captain has played. We will have enough gold by then that Greece will call us even if BW is the only thing they can offer for our bankroll (at least I think). So for another civ to show up it has to be quick.

Not really. He said he spent 100 hours play testing this game. Most of that will have been trying different openings. Each AI civ is only diverted onto alternative development and exploration paths once it meets others. Before that I think the AI actions are largely predictable.
I don't know if we can afford the units, but it looks like it may be time to send out a scout to the north and west. Did I read Klarius saying the Greek came from the east? I don't think I would go that way. :crazyeye:

Not really. He said he spent 100 hours play testing this game. Most of that will have been trying different openings. Each AI civ is only diverted onto alternative development and exploration paths once it meets others. Before that I think the AI actions are largely predictable.

When the game is over you can inspect the turnlogs. You will be able to see in what order and when everybody made contacts. The reasons for any differences will also become apparent.

It's really tough for me to watch people struggle with the way I am thinking. But actually I was really driven to set up the game the way it is. It's surprising how few choices I had in the end.

I don't know if we can afford the units, but it looks like it may be time to send out a scout to the north and west. Did I read Klarius saying the Greek came from the east? I don't think I would go that way. :crazyeye:

Here's the direction info we have for Greece ...
IBT - Greek warrior appears E,SE,SE of Rome !!!!!!!!
IBT - Greek warrior goes N
2710BC - IBT Greek warrior dissappears to E

Good detailed reporting from Adrian :thumbsup:

So yes, I'd say they are south/east-ish of us ... probably :mischief:

Given that the Greek unit showed up on turn 28 that means the Greek capital is at most 30 squares away. More likely to be about 20. Given that we are on the southern hemisphere and well south with salt water to the south of us, I'm sure we will find the Greeks to the East or North East. They won't be far.

The Greeks won't be much of an offensive threat as their attackers will mostly be 1s. 2s after they get archers. Warriors and or spearmen fortified on hills or mountains should easily defeat their attack. Build a couple of veteran spearmen and walls in Rome and let the Greeks waste their army attacking it. A spearman would defend at 4.5 in that case.

I will bet that the first contact alluded to by MB is the Greeks. I can't forsee any other option. For it to work out as he predicted, someone else should have contacted us by now.

@AdrianE, luckily we don't have BW to build spearman, so Alan and I don't have to convince everybody to not build spears. Firstly two warriors are stronger than one spear against weak attackers, secondly we are Rome our strongest defender will soon be the legion.
Edit:
I also think the walls is not necessary. This could help only in a short period. An extra archer is worth more. After that we shouldn't let any attackers come near Rome, but attack them already in the open. I know this will be hard for some people, but that may mean that we have to let our capital undefended sometimes and use the slider for happiness.

@Capt. BK
I looked again on the save. I think to compromise best on the wishes of Leif (miltary) and me (worker) would be to switch Veii from barracks to worker. MM the game between Rome and Veii so that Veii can also grow fast (Rome should be priority). Only after that build the barracks in Veii.

In response to mad-bax's request in the Maintenance thread, I've set up a space at the top on the second post in this thread where I'll attempt to keep a list to track our contact dates and DoW obligations. It's empty right now ;)

@AdrianE, ....
I also think the walls is not necessary. This could help only in a short period. An extra archer is worth more. After that we shouldn't let any attackers come near Rome, but attack them already in the open. I know this will be hard for some people, but that may mean that we have to let our capital undefended sometimes and use the slider for happiness

I don't think we will get a chance to hit units in the open. If I'm correct and it is the Greeks we are facing in the first war and they are to the east of us they will come in along the hills/mountains. We lose with archers attacking against hoplites in hills mountains. The best way to break the Greek army is to let them hit us where we are strongest. That will be a properly defended Rome. The AI will attack our capital even if there is no way they can win. With walls and spears we stack the deck so far in our favour. We will get elite spearmen in no time and maybe a leader or two.

There are two things we want to avoid until we have legions: attacking hoplites and letting a hoplite get a win while attacking. Warriors are not good defenders. A hoplite will have a 50-50 shot of beating a warrior without defensive bonus or hitpoint advantage. I don't think given the AI a 50% probabilty of doubling its production is very smart. I don't think giving them a 10% chance is smart either.

We are militaristic so walls cost us 10 with 0 maintenance. It is VERY cheap life insurance for our people.

We will get BW and have spears available at the start of the war with Greece. It is the one tech we must buy from first contact. Who knows where the iron is. It will be several turns before we research it. It could be MANY turns before it is hooked up. Betting the game on quick and easy iron is foolish IMO. There are many hills and mountains around Rome so the chances are good that iron is close.

Two vet spears in Rome and 1 or two more vet spear fortified on the mountain to the east of Rome will kill many Greek units in defensive battles until we get legions. Occupying the mountain will force the Greeks to go around and off the defensible terrain. That will make them more vulnerable to our archers.

This variant requires different thinking from the usual. Things we would normally never do need to be done to survive. You were talking about a defensive war. Walls are an instrument of defensive war.

Peel workers out of Rome not Veii. A worker costs Rome 10 food (3 turns) but costs Veii 20 (10 turns or 5 if it gets the game).

If we get an early GL what do we want to do with him? The Pyramids would be very useful. A legion army is another choice. Or we save him for the Great Library.

Turnlog: Lost screenshot somewhere (prob forgot to put it on the disk, sorry :()

Sgotm3 2550 B.C. - 2150B.C.

Preflight - Nothing
Turn 1 - 2510 B.C. MM both cities for faster growth in Veii. Rome will grow in 2 with MM back next turn.
IBT: Rome Armamentorium --> Worker.
Turn 2 - 2470 B.C. I start moving our warrior N, searcing for another tribe. MM game back to Rome. Veii gets mined BG.
IBT: Nothing.
Turn 3 - 2430 B.C. 20% lux.
IBT: Rome Worker --> Archer.
Turn 4 - 2390 B.C. Back to 10% lux. MM game to Veii.
IBT: Spot a Greek warrior moving N to the E of our scouting warrior.
Turn 5 - 2350 B.C. MM game back to Rome. Switch production to Warrior. Sorry, Leif. The Archer will have to come later. Too many shields wasted if I go for it now... 0 lux.
IBT: Road to wine completes. Rome Warrior --> Archer.
Turn 6 - 2310 B.C. MM game to Veii for growth next turn. Archer due in 3 with this production rate. 10% lux.
IBT: Alex wants 90 gold for CB. He wants a gpt deal for BW :( and after that he wants 100 gold :mad: for CB!!! I take it and declare on him. We'll teach him not to barter his techs like that :hammer:
Turn 7 - 2270 B.C. Move warrior SE to mountain hoping to attract fire from Greek warrior. MM.
IBT: No attack so no luck.
Turn 8 - 2230 B.C. Warrior moves N again. MM.
IBT: Rome Archer --> Archer. Veii Arms --> Archer. Greek warrior arrives from the E.
Turn 9 - 2190 B.C. MM. Move Archer E SE.
IBT: Nothing.
Turn 10 - 2150 B.C. Not much.

I couldn't get to read all your advice, klarius and Adrian. Since you seem to disagree anyway :cool:, I hope both will be satisfied with that somewhat down-the-middle approach to your discussion.

@AdrianE
Being a stubborn old man I disagree with nearly every point of AdrianE. ;)
We need to hold only one mountain to force the eastern attackers to open ground.
The first attackers will very probably not come with hoplites, but warriors and a little later the first archers. The hoplites will be initially kept in the cities for defense, until the Greek war machine is able to produce enough (ok there could be one come early, but not much more).
I don't intend to give the greeks a shot on warriors in the open if not urgently necessary. Our forces should always use the best defenses possible. As long as the Greek don't have horses, that's mostly possible to set up. Some losses have to be expected, but warriors are cheap. Spears would also have losses in the open, so the good war-mongering is anyways necessary.
It's also not necesarily true that we will have BW. I wouldn't buy it, if it means shooting our rep early. But ok that's just me, because I think we don't need it. (Ok just see the Captain posted, we don't have it).
I definitely don't want the Greek to come near rome and let them fight there. The idiotic AI just loves to pillage tiles, which have no strategic value, but will hurt to re-do. We may not be able to avoid all pillaging, but we shouldn't invite them by taking a defensive stance in Rome. I was always talking about active defense and we should not attack on the tiles directly east of Rome, because of the hills.
Early war-mongering isn't any different in the variant as compared to my favourite "tiny pangea", if one of the neighbors gets cocky. I have won several of these wars (admittedly I also lost some :cry: ) on emperor level. You may get along with the defensive stance, but that greatly hampers the development.
The idea with Veii was a compromise to still get a worker a few units (Rome can churn out units much faster than Veii)
and the next settler fast. Veii has not many good tiles to work right now, most can only be borrowed from Rome. On the other side we don't need (and don't want, because it has no shields), the game one out of three turns in Rome. So Veii can grow every 7-8 turns if correctly MMed. But getting a worker out of Rome and continuing the Barracks in Veii is also fine with me. I personally would probably even go for both workers :eek: and take some risks in our first war. No risk, no fun :cool: and no fast development.

Edit: Ok Cross-posted and as usual too slow due to too much spam. The next turns can be quite tricky, watch out also for Greeks coming from other directions (returning from hunting or exploration missions). Now I go read the turnlog thoroughly.
:D

I'm sorry for cutting it short this time. Most of you guys know I've been very busy lately. I'm only starting to catch up with the missus so it's off for some quality time on a friday eve :rockon:

:thumbsup: Good luck, Leif. You've got your archer :lol:

Btw: an early GL should be used for the GL (it's in the name :lol: ).
It's even more important in this game cause we won't be able to trade all that many techs.

I've got it Alan. :p (Beat you!) :lol:

Plan to play it this evening, that is about 6 hours from now. I am looking forward to reading the lively discussion and will check in before I begin.

Good work Capt., I think! ;) Thank you very much for the Archers! :goodjob:

@Klarius - Don't feel bad, you are not the only old and stubborn man amongst the team. This discussion seems strangely familiar!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

The only comment I want to make at this point is that I lean towards an active defense and no spearman, of course, we don't have BW right now, or so it looks. However, an active defense does depend upon some amount of manueverability, that means roads. I will have a look at the terrain and our roadwork so far and see what I think can be done. Also, I would like to keep searching to the north if we think our production is good enough to spare the warrior?

@Capt. - Can you give me any more detail concerning what techs the Greeks had, how much gold? I am wondering if you think they have contacted anyone else? This would tell us if anyone else may be close by and whether a continued search is worth the effort?? :mischief:

It's even more important in this game cause we won't be able to trade all that many techs.
But to use the Great Library, we have to get out of town a little bit more often, if you know what I mean!! Won't do much good if we only know the Greeks. :blush:

Well the theoretical part of the discussion is over. The first war is with the Greeks.

We should scout N and W and maybe find a civ that hasn't found the Greeks. That way we could trade gpt with them.

When can we get iron working?

We also need to get another settler out soon. Rome must be getting pretty big by now.

Good luck Leif

Adrian

I looked on the turn log and had a quick peek in the save. Looks all very good :goodjob: .
The fun can now really begin :D.
Especially I like that you already have taken the important mountain. Seems we have a similar way of doing early wars.
And naturally I agree on the Great Library. We can build granaries, but there is no replacement for the awesome GL. Pyramids is a nice thing to have, but we are not exactly on a peaceful expansion course.
I would probably do a warrior in Veii first, to counter any leakers or returning hunting parties. But there's no need to decide this right away.
I would let the archer in Rome complete and then go for the next settler. That's naturally dependent on how the war is going and how friendly the RNG is. Don't let Rome grow to size 7, if it's not absolutely necessary (very bad RNG and otherwise we would loose).
Edit: My computer just beeped a temperature warning to me so I had to post the above quite quick. Seems to be ok now, so some more good :confused: advise.
@Leif: you have to look at the save. The Captain has set up everything very nicely. We have two workers on nice spots. They can make you all the roads you want, but please don't forget production. Rome is still not using the full potential of its surrounding. A reg warrior is already in the northern part and should continue its journey to other civs.
@AdrianE: You will need some more patience, we shouldn't go for the BW->IW research if we don't need to. That means we should really find another contact. That may still take 20-30 turns the way mad-bax has set up this scenario. We could research it ourselves probably faster, but then we would be broke anyways and with another contact we may have some tech to barter.

Sorry, I've been busy playing with results programming stuff ... don't ask :hmm:

You guys don;t need me anyway, you seem to be making your own amusement, and Leif is obviously chomping at the bit, can't wait to get his teeth into some good Greek food.

Just for old time's sake, here's the roster:

Klarius still thinking
AdrianE also thinking
Capt Buttkick relaxing
leif erikson UP[/b] and at 'em
AlanH ready as I'll ever be, on deck

Go, Leif. Sounds like you're well set up! :thumbsup:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/x_team_2150_1.jpg
A screenshot and some more remarks.
A nice position for the warrior and under it archer on the mountain.
Scouting warrior in the north. Fine.
I just looked into Rome again. After the archer completes a worker would probably be the better option. Otherwise we have to stay off the game for very long.
Edit:
So that it doesn't look that all of a sudden I have nothing to complain about:
I wouldn't have bought CB. Much better than shooting our rep for BW, but we don't need it urgently and it will get cheaper with more contacts. So I would have just declared w/o trade. But that's really not a big point, the difference isn't much and I can well understand that you wanted to do a trade after we talked so much about our initial trade. :D

I just looked into Rome again. After the archer completes a worker would probably be the better option. Otherwise we have to stay off the game for very long.
O.K., works over for today. Now to more important things!! :mischief:

@Klarius - I have looked at the save and the Capt. did indeed set it up well. I am thinking that a settler would be appropriate next in Rome. First, we will need the town for unit support. We have 6 units now and 8 is the limit as we are. After that, we pay maintenance, and I would like to have more than 4 units (2 workers) to defend ourselves with and wer could use the gold. Second, should we have some trouble, the settler could serve as a pre-build for an Archer. If that is needed. Veii may be able to pump a worker for us, but I have to sit and work it out before I start.

So the question is where to settle and I think it should be at 4 on the map I drew earlier. This would provide Veii with an extra Bonus Grass to work to boost production there while the new city grows. Thoughts?

@Alan - We could never do without you. I rarely get the chance to beat you to the punch, so I thought I would take it this time!! ;)

think it should be at 4 on the map I drew earlier. This would provide Veii with an extra Bonus Grass to work to boost production there while the new city grows. Thoughts?
If you mean the BG NW/NW from Veii then we'd only get that in range with a temple, as it's 2 tiles away from both Veii and site 4. We're looking for production and food, so maybe we should go for 5 or 1 if we want to drive towards the Greek border we can see in the SW, or 2 for a safer town away from the action.

You're right, 4 would miss that BG. :blush:

I was a little worried about moving too close E as Thermopylae is right there. However, it could serve as a buffer and approaching units would be on open ground as long as we can hold the mountain that the Capt, fortified. I'll have a look in game, but I think 1 may be OK. Thanks.

Maybe a little late again, but anyways.
1 or 5 for cities is fine with me. 1 looks a little better because of the direct road connection to Rome. 5 grabs a hill, always good, who knows where mad-bax hid the iron. It cannot be too far.
The worker was thought for two reasons. First workers are always good as long you have tiles to improve. They pay their upkeep by making roads easily. Second more flexibility. If you go for a settler you have to stick with it or Rome will grow to 7.

OK, we have survived another 10 turns. After Action Report is at the bottom of the turn log.

Pre-flight.
Nothing to do.
Hit the return key.

IBT
Greek Warrior we could see on the mountain moves W, adjacent to our worker E of Rome.
Greek Warrior appears to the N, NE, NE of Rome.
Greek Warrior moves out of Thermopylae to the west.

Turn 41 – 2110 BC
Vet Archer on the mountain attacks Southwest, a Reg. Greek Warrior, and defeats him but redlines. :eek:
Worker near Veii completes a mine and is assigned to road.
Northern Warrior N.
Rome grows to size 6, MM and change lux slider to 20%.

IBT
Greek Warrior up north moves W, skirting our northern boundary.
Greek Warrior near Thermopylae moves W onto mountain near our warrior.
Rome produces an Archer – Settler. This Archer makes our total military equal 8 units, next one costs maintenance.

Turn 42 – 2070 BC
Archer in Rome E and SE.
Redlined Archer NE , moved with Warrior on mountain.
Scouting Warrior N, finds ocean.
Veii gained a pop point, to 3

IBT
Northern Greek Warrior continues W, need to watch him coming form behind perhaps later.
Southern Greek Warrior moves into kill zone 3 squares SE of Rome.

Turn 43 – 2030 BC
Vet Archer attacks S, Reg. Greek Warrior, and kills him, losing 1 HP.
Scouting Warrior NW.
Worker SE of Rome completes mine and is assigned to road.
Redlined Archer is fortified to heal.
MM Rome, settler in 3 and growth to size 7 in 4.
I just noticed we have no MP in Veii and I wonder if that Greek Warrior up north is headed there trying for an easy score. If so, the AI knows too much!! :thumbdown

IBT
Greek Warrior that was north moves SW along our border.

Turn 44 – 1990 BC
Victorious Archer from last turn fortifies to heal.
Worker near Veii completes road and moves SE to BG square.
Scouting Warrior NW, and we some pink. Looks like the French.
I decide to contact them (note date). Joan is cautious towards us. She has Bronze Working, Masonry, The Wheel, Writing, and Mysticism. She has communication with the English, Babylonians, Russians, Germans and Americans. She also has the lux condimentum?? (sorry, I didn’t take Latin) She has 26 gold in her treasury.
Trading
She wants 80 Gold for Bronze Working, 90 Gold plus 1 GPT for The Wheel and Masonry, 90 Gold lus4 GPT for Writing, and 90 Gold for Mysticism. I decide to give her 80 Gold for Bronze Working. She becomes polite towards us. I go back into the diplo screen to check and she does have Iron Working, but says that she doesn’t see how a deal could be worked out. Of course, we only have 10 Gold. :cry: I leave her polite.

IBT
The Greek Warrior moves SW again along our border towards Veii.
Scout Warrior watches the French build Rheims.
Veii Archer – Archer.
We are informed that the French are building The Pyramids.

Turn 45 – 1950 BC
The Archer in Veii N into woods, adjacent to the Greek Warrior.
Worker mines S, SW of Rome.
Archer is healed and moves NE onto mountain with the Warrior and other Archer.
Scouting Warrior W.

IBT
Greek Warrior moves SE along border.
A Greek Hoplite shows up, NE, NE of Rome.
Rome produces a Settler – Archer.


Turn 46 – 1910 BC
Settler moves E and E.
Worker E of Rome completes road and moves N and NW.
Both Archers on the mountain are healed. Move 1 Archer onto Settler in case I need to go after the Hoplite (The Archer will be on a road when we build the town next turn).
The other Archer on the mountain fortifies with the Warrior.
Archer near Veii SW onto hill to deny it to the Greek Warrior.
Scouting Warrior W.
Change Lux slider to 10%. We are paying 2 Gold to support our military.

IBT
Greek Warrior moves SE, adjacent to Veii.
Hoplite moves S, adjacent to our worker.

Turn 47 – 1870 BC
Vet. Archer near Veii attacks NE, Reg. Greek Warrior, and defeats him, losing one HP and promoting to Elite.
Settler founds the town of Antium and production is set to Barracks
Archer in Antium W to occupy hill with wine and fortifies.
Wake a Warrior in Rome and move E and NE to cover hill overlooking Antium.
Scouting Warrior W.
Worker NE of Rome moves into Rome.
We now have 9 units and 3 towns support 12 units, maintenance payments cease.
Moving the warrior out of Rome requires that we increase Lux slider to 20%.

IBT
Greek Hoplite moves E, adjacent to Antium.

Turn 48 – 1830 BC
Vet. Warrior from mountain wakes and moves into Antium, leaving a fortified Archer. There are no other Greek units in sight.
Scouting Warrior W along French border, sees Paris.
Warrior on hill NW of Antium fortifies.
Worker in Rome NE.
Elite Archer E.

IBT
A Greek Archer appears moving west out of Thermopylae.
Greek Hoplite moves E.
Rome Archer – Settler.
MM Rome to slow growth a little bit and add a GPT.

Turn 49 – 1790 BC
Veii grows to size 4, requires Lux slider to move to 30%. MM Rome.
Vet Archer in Rome moves to mountain stronghold, E, E and S.
Worker NE of Rome mines.
Warrior in Antium fortifies.
Elite Archer moves into Rome and fortifies to heal.
Scouting warrior W.
Check with Joan and she wants 49 Gold and 6 GPT for IW. Not yet!!

IBT
Greek Archer moves onto mountain adjacent to our 2 Archers.
Greek hoplite moves E towards Thermopylae.
Veii Archer – Worker.
Turn 50 – 1750 BC
Archer in Veii fortifies as an MP.
Archer on mountain fortifies.
Scouting Warrior W, see Goody Hut (Tech Please??)
Change Lux slider to 20%.

After Actions Report
Well, we’ve survived thus far. Watch the Greek Archer SE of Antium, I expect he will move onto the bonus grass SE, SE of Rome as that is what all the others have done. The Hoplite appears to be headed for Thermopylae. Our Military Advisor says we are average compared to the Greeks.

We now have 3 towns established. Our military has grown to 4 Warriors and 5 Archers, including 1 elite (in Rome). Unfortunately, I was unable to build any workers but one is due in Veii in 2 turns. Also, another settler is due in Rome in 3 turns, same turn as it grows. Antium is building a Barracks, due in 7 turns. We are earning 10 GPT, but I have been working the Lux slider hard.

We have contacted France, on turn 44 (1990 BC), and traded for Bronze Working. France has Iron Working but we cannot afford it yet. I hope we can acquire it before we have to declare on her.

Writing is due in 4 turns, so we need to decide what the next research objective will be.
There is a Goody Hut visible to the Scouting Warrior up north.

Note – there are silks to the NE, almost to the visible water.

I think that covers everything. As always Alan, please feel free to make any changes you feel are warranted. I have no problem with whatever you wish to do.

Good luck and good hunting!! :hammer:

I have a screen shot but I can't seem to get it onto the upload server and into this post. Never had trouble before, perhaps the server is down. Sorry. I suppose I could attach it. I think it is attached now! :clap:

<< The Save >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Xteam_SG003_BC1750_01.SAV)

Nice piece of early warring, looks good :goodjob:
Now the rant:
Our capital should always stay on the 3-turn growth pattern. In the beginning of the war it was ok to go away from this pattern, but now we should return to it. There is no benefit in having the settler coincide with the growth turn. That just wastes a lot of shields. In 5 turns we have the magic 5 mined BGs. Then we can have 30 shields in units and a settler within 6 turns when working the capital size 5 to 7 or 4.8 to 6.8. Yes this may mean we have to turn the lux slider one notch higher sometimes, so what. We already now have the capability to build a settler in 3-turns at size 6 allowing three turns at size 5 for unit production. Alas with a lot of wasted shields currently, so we can share some mined BGs in the moment some times, but after the 5th BG comes in we should go to a fixed pattern of archer-warrior-settler in 6-turns. This means MM the capital and adjacent cities every turn (not really, but check every turn, changes necessary in about half the turns)
Also don't be shy to pay a bit of unit support cost when it otherwise fits. Unit support cost will go down eventually with more cities, in the moment we should produce every unit we can and fits (especially workers, they fit anytime except in our capital where it would be a big waste of shields).
Edit: Just thought about it some more: workers fit also well in the capital. We can make two warriors and a worker at size 6. Only point is that Rome is the only city which can efficently make settlers, while workers can be peeled of in other cities when their growth slows down.
For the diplo situation. Yes that's also what I had done, though it's in principle suboptimal. I also would have been nosy to want to check what the price on IW is. But we still have a chance to meet more civs before we have to declare our next war.
I would probably wait for the latest time for the declaration with france and then trade our rep for IW and as much else we can get. France has writing and contacts, she will sell our contact, so we soon have more people on our diplo screen. Then we can also look what they've got, but that's probably the same as Joan anyways and we cannot efficently broker. We only get the advantage that prices go down when we meet more people who know the tech.
So on the turn we have to declare make a trade for IW and TW which should be easily affordable with our gold and gpt, if we turn the sliders down before the trade. Then look again. Maybe we can also snatch HBR or even better MM (trading maps would really be nice), but if not she should give us at least masonry I think. Then declare, we are broke in cash but have our gpt (don't forget to readjust the sliders).
A small problem with science. Joan has writing already :eek: , which is quite early, the tech pace is quite high up there in the north. When we do more trading we will probably see that alot is already researched. Literature @ min is probably not good enough to get it first and we may not be able to afford the gpt to get there first at all (and for sure we can not afford to buy it unless everybody has it).
I think we should give lit and TGL a try, but don't think we have a city to build it from scratch even when a prebuild starts now. The only city which could probably get it is Rome in a golden age, but that's obviously extremely high risk. All the AI will have builds for some wonders already, there can be a cascade any time. So my conclusion is, we have to rely on luck to get a leader in time and should also save him for this project. If we don't get TGL you can expect that we will stay half an age behind well into the MA, we will have to grow, build libraries in core cities and devote much money to science. At the same time we will want money to upgrade units and may have to run 20-30% lux tax. It's possible to do, but much harder than leisurely coasting along the research of the AI with science set to 0.

I've updated the contact log in teh second post. Please check that I'm doing this right, as it will be bad news to get the variant rules wrong and do all this warring for nothing. We have to declare on Joan in 1575 BC/Turn #57 as I read it - 20 turns after we declared on Greece. Our contact date with Joan is purely for historical interest.

I've a lot of stuff to do in RL today, so I'll try to get it tonight and see if I can work out how Klarius's magic factory works :D

I've a lot of stuff to do in RL today, so I'll try to get it tonight and see if I can work out how Klarius's magic factory works :D

There's in fact only one tricky point in the factory: We have to work the game on one of the first two turns at size 5. This means we get only 9 shields. So we cannot do three warriors. But we can get 11 shields either the turn before or the turn after. So archer-warrior (or legion later though I think we should hook-up iron only for a short time to upgrade) is possible.
I probably have a look into the latest GOTM today (in fact I already started yesterday and have 5 cities, but I don't tell you at what date :D or :cry: ).

Good luck!

@Alan - Checked the rules and your recordkeeping in post $2 and I think you have it correct. Too bad, I forgot it was 20 turns from the first declaration, not 20 turns from meeting the 2nd civ. :confused:

France is fairly large. I watched them build Rheims, their fourth city, and I thought I saw another settler roaming around. The one advantage is that they are fairly distant. They are capable of a good sized SOD. We will need to be prepared for them, although this shouldn't be too hard as we build more cities.

I agree that we shouldn't worry too much about maintenace and Lux at this time. My only thought when I wrote it is that we will need every Gold piece because it is all we have to trade with. The more we can conserve, the better our chances of trading as we move along. I think muliple tech deals are a good possibility and better deals under this system, if we have the gold available for them. That then depends on our ability to keep building cities and developing the terrain around them. I did not want to have a GPT deal with France at this time and thought BW was the best bet because it leads to what I have desired for some time, IW. ;)

@Klarius - You are quite obviously way ahead of me regarding MM and general empire organization. I am trying very hard to follow you and learn. However, if you could please help me. When you write one of these long posts, it would be most helpful if you could double space between your thoughts and, perhaps, provide some examples of how we need to do it. As I read and try to figure it out, I am getting lost and spending too much time trying to figure out where I was and lose my train of thought. Sorry, but I am getting too old I guess!! :blush:

Just for fun I replayed, from my initial save to 1750. The only difference was earlier workers (the one directly in Rome and first build in Veii). War with Greece came 1 turn earlier and was by that a little more exciting in the beginning (all cities empty, lux at 30%). At 1750 I have one city more, Settler due in 4 (3 after archer completes) and I have the factory already in synch. Still I found the time to contact France. There is 1 archer and 1 warrior less but one worker more :cool: . This would even out soon with the factory and two other cities with barracks already.
Admittedly this was knowing that it would be only Greece from the east that would come, so maybe I would in reality have delayed growth by maybe 2 turns for another archer. Still the third city would have been earlier and the capital factory up to speed.
Just another small demonstration of the power of workers, if you don't get too nervous. I know in that sequence was more potential for an early wooden spoon, still I would have played it that way.

I just thought of something quick that might help me learn and, hopefully, keep us on the schedule that is most efficient. If you could post a quick little chart.

Turn............City Pop............Extra Food..........Shield Production
1....................5......................3..... .....................10

Or something similar. Then dummies like me can check this against the city screen and know that I have it right. After a while, it will become second nature and I'll have it, and maybe even understand it. ;)

We have some flexibility for emergencies, but lets give one basic schedule:

We start at:
Pop 5 food 0 MM to 5 mined BG generates 11 sh
Pop 5 fd 2 MM one tile to game 9 sh
Pop 5 fd 6 no MM archer completes growth will generate 10 or 11 sh depending what tiles are open (when it gets really crowded in our empire we may have to open up a tile with at least one shield) so build warrior
Pop 6 warrior completes->settler, no problems we can generate 10 or more shields even with working the game MM only on the behalf of other cities we can spare the game one turn and some shields in the other two turns
2 turns more at pop 6 as above.

There is a similar schedule for starting at size 4,food 8 . With settler coming when at size 6 food 8 (only two turns at size 6 can mean one turn less for a higher lux setting but also one turn less working a hopefully roaded tile -> not much difference). I leave the exact sequence as homework for the students. :) There's a tricky point with the governor involved. When you have only 2 excess food the governor will select the strongest tile. If no mined and roaded river BG tile is open, this will be the game. The emphasize shields setting is only a tie-breaker. So the game has to be blocked by another city in this case or an equally strong but higher shield tile available. This is different from the classical settler pump where you always have high food. Then the governor always selects the highest shields tile. Breakpoint is somewhere at 3fpt, but I don't remember now if it's at or above 3. There's an article in the academy somewhere detailing this.

We have some flexibility for emergencies, but lets give one basic schedule:

We start at:
Pop 5 food 0 MM to 5 mined BG generates 11 sh
Pop 5 fd 2 MM one tile to game 9 sh
Pop 5 fd 6 no MM archer completes growth will generate 10 or 11 sh depending what tiles are open (when it gets really crowded in our empire we may have to open up a tile with at least one shield) so build warrior
Pop 6 warrior completes->settler, no problems we can generate 10 or more shields even with working the game MM only on the behalf of other cities we can spare the game one turn and some shields in the other two turns
2 turns more at pop 6 as above.
Thanks, that is actually quite easy to understand. :goodjob:

There is a similar schedule for starting at size 4,food 8 . With settler coming when at size 6 food 8 (only two turns at size 6 can mean one turn less for a higher lux setting but also one turn less working a hopefully roaded tile -> not much difference). I leave the exact sequence as homework for the students. :)
Now for the homework?? :confused:
Turn 1 - At Pop 4 and food 8 you MM, using the game and work three BG's. That gives +4 food and 7 shields.
Next turn is pop 5 and during the inter-turn, you collect 2 extra shields from the Govenor, if he went to a BG, which he most likely will. So we should start with 9 shields in the box.
Turn 2 - Pop 5 and 2 food, we work 5 BG's for +2 food and 11 shields, producing a 20 shield Archer.
Turn 3 - Pop 5 and 4 food, we stay with what we have and produce a warrior in 1 turn, waste 1 shield.
Turn 4 - Pop 5 and 6 food, we MM to the game for a +4 and shields would be at 9.
During the inter-turn, we grow to pop 6 and, hopefully, gain 2 shields, so we would have 11 in the box.
Turn 5 - Pop 6 and 0 food, we stay on the game for a +4 and shields would be at 11.
Turn 6 - Pop 6 and 4 food, we work the game for +4 food and 11 shields. At the end of this turn, we get a settler and return to Pop4 and 8 food.

I think that would be the sequence.

Turn 1 - At Pop 4 and food 8 you MM, using the game and work three BG's. That gives +4 food and 7 shields.
Next turn is pop 5 and during the inter-turn, you collect 2 extra shields from the Govenor, if he went to a BG, which he most likely will. So we should start with 9 shields in the box.

Why would you want to work the game, you already have 8 food in the box. So you work 4 mBGs.
Veii works the game.
You leave one mined BG open for the governor to pick. -> 11 sh


Turn 2 - Pop 5 and 2 food, we work 5 BG's for +2 food and 11 shields, producing a 20 shield Archer.
Turn 3 - Pop 5 and 4 food, we stay with what we have and produce a warrior in 1 turn, waste 1 shield.

Now you lost. We want a steady cycle. That means we need to have only three turns at size 5. 2 of them need to have the game.

So because we have already 11 sh in the box, we first MM to the game 9sh archer completes next turn.
Turn 3 5 BG 10-11 sh ->warrior.


Turn 4 - Pop 5 and 6 food, we MM to the game for a +4 and shields would be at 9.
During the inter-turn, we grow to pop 6 and, hopefully, gain 2 shields, so we would have 11 in the box.

You cheated that's two turns. :eek:

Turn 4 MM again to game for growth in one. Growth turn will already give 10-11 sh ->settler , but that's uncritical because the following two turns at size 6 will give also 10-11 sh w/o MM (staying at the game for 8 food so that the cycle can begin again).

Edit: The 10-11 is meaning that in these turns we can use an unmined BG (or the wine hill) and give a mined one to another city. We really only need all 5 mined BGs in the one critical turn to offset the 9 sh. That's the case in both sequences.
But don't overdo it. Rather waste a little, but get the cycle right in the capital. That's why I propose the first cycle. It's the easiest one and doesn't rely on complicated considerations about the governor.

Edit2: I still don't get all my thought's into one sitting :confused: .
I propose that the first cycle I put above, is the one we should use for the near future.
If somebody feels confident that he can use a variation (and there are quite a few), he should either set it up to the standard cycle at the end of his turn set, or leave a deteailed description how to return.
If in doubt you could also wait till I post one of my lengthy elaborations.
Just a proposal, as usual every driver can do what he thinks to fit the situation.
I know I should try to make shorter posts and also shorter sentences, but that's not so easy for me. :)

Just that it doesn't sound as if I would do everything right.
In Gotm33 I'm now in anarchy and MA (don't tell you the date).
I already messed up the MM of my capital three times and also let it riot once.
Add this to a riot in my primary unit producing city to see that I'm only good in theory.

You cheated that's two turns. :eek:
OK, I flunked my first test. When all else fails, one has to rely on cheats. :mischief:

To tell you the truth, I figured it out on a piece of paper, then started typing it into the post. Halfway through, I realized what I did on the paper was wrong and started to change it in the post. After 30 minutes, between the post and the paper, I was so confused that I lost track of where I was.

The question I have is, when a city grows in pop, does the food box empty, or does food carry over?? In other words, when I go from Pop4 with 8 food and have a +4 in food, does it go to Pop 5 with 2 or Pop 5 with 0 food? I couldn't remember. I told you I was bad at this!!!! :eek:

Watching you guys, it makes me wonder how I have managed to win at all... :crazyeye:

Thanks Klarius. Great explanations :goodjob:

I've downloaded and opened the save. I think the penny's finally dropped on this factory. Let me see if I have it right as we transition from where we are now to running the 5-7 sequence.

Currently we are at pop 5 with 8 shields and 2 more turns to go before growth. We're currently building a settler, but I guess the plan is to use the next two turns to complete an archer, giving BGs to Veii to minimise waste, then build a settler in three turns at pop 6. I think that's possible, as we'll have 4 mined BG at that stage, plus two unmined = 29 total if we use the deer for the last turn. The growth bonus should provide the extra shield we need to finish the settler, and I think the 5th BG mine completes on that turn as well, so we have two sources for the final shield.

After that we'll have completed the magic 5 BGs and we can start immediately on Klarius's 5-7 Archer/Warrior/Settler sequence. I should hand over with one more turn required to complete the settler, and I should have produced a settler, a warrior and two archers in Rome. My settler should build city site #5, or maybe #2 since we know we'll be at war with France on turn #7 of my set :eek:

BTW. I see that Joan has made friends fast, the hussy. She knows England, Babs, Russia, Germany and America. It occurs to me that we have an opportunity to determine the sequence in which we have to declare war on our next few victims, as we can buy access to the ones we'd prefer to put next on our contact list. I think my preference would be America and Russia if we can afford it. I'm guessing America might be a little way away, and Russia never gets to be much of a threat in the AA in my limited experience. What are your thoughts? How do we prioritise this option vs. buying techs before we declare, assuming we can't afford everything?

question I have is, when a city grows in pop, does the food box empty, or does food carry over?

There's no carry-over of anything as far as I know.

Oh, and many Latin words can be discovered in English if you think hard enough. Condimentum gives us 'condiments' = salt, pepper, flavourings = spices.

@Leif Yes the food box empties, that's the big problem with these uneven (wrt to 5) numbers of fpt.

@Alan I think you got it and it should work. :goodjob:
But its hair raising tight.
You probably already counted in the MM to the deer in one of the first two turns, just a reminder.

Note you have to work the deer two times at size 6. So you have 10+9 and 9 that you have selected for the growth turn.

The 5th mine has to complete and the governor has to select it right away to get to 30. I'm not quite sure that this works.
So I would select the just to be mined tile and let an already completed open. And make sure no other town grabs it.
Edit: Nonsense :blush:, just select the mined BGs the just to be mined BG and the deer on the growth turn and you should be save. Always a bit complicated, if I just do it in my head and quick.

Note you have to work the deer two times at size 6. So you have 10+9 and 9 that you have selected for the growth turn. Yes, of course. I was thinking one deer turn in three, but it's two in three.

The 5th mine has to complete and the governor has to select it right away to get to 30. I'm not quite sure that this works.
So I would select the just to be mined tile and let an already completed open. And make sure no other town grabs it.Yes, I need both those bonuses to come right. If it fails we are pop 7, with extra lux tax and an empty granary, and a two-front war on our hands. :eek:

Okay cross edit-posted. As I noted above my last calculation gives that it works.
A growth to size seven is bad, but no catastrophy. You will have to work the dear several times in a row and cannot get to 10 shields, but other towns can profit. The next Settler is delayed by 3 turns total and you get less units.

@Alan
You also noted the communications. I wouldn't bother buying them except it just fits into the deal that we don't get another tech but communications. There isn't much difference who is next and we still have the scout up there.
But you will probably have some more on the diplo screen anyways when it's time to declare, because Joan is selling us.
Looking through the list I would just say Germans and Babs later than earlier is better, because they might start other wars, if we give them enough time. :D

Hi, I'm back. Sorry to keep you in suspense, but my wife's to-do list (for me) is so long it tripped me up this weekend :eek:

Summary:

The bad news is that the Greek archer I inherited took out TWO of our brave lads before he was dispatched. The good news is that in spite of that we are still alive and our factory has performed flawlessly. We have a new town, and some new techs plus a trashed reputation. We've replaced the lost archers and created a couple of warriors. We have iron and horses in our radius, and some new friends and enemies.


Turn 50 1750 BC Preflight.
Thanks to the tutorial from Klarius, Rome, currently at 5 food and 8 shields, switched to building an Archer and was MM'd to 1fpt/7spt with an extra shield due from a BG mine completion. Veii used the deer and mined BGs to get 3fpt/5spt. Lux slider reduced to 10% - 8.1.1 for 12 gpt.

Check F4. Joan has Masonry, Mysticism, Wheel, Ironworking, Writing. She also has contacts with Babs, America, Germany, Russia, England. Prices are stiff, but we'll do our deals in 7 turns time, immediately prior to declaring war. Greece will talk. He has all the above techs except Writing.

Checked the combat calculator for options wrt the Greek archer:

(a) We can attack him: vet archer vs reg archer unfortified on mtn - we win 66%
(b) We can let him attack us: reg archer vs vet archer fortified on mtn - we win 71%
I decide to go along with the odds. He may not attack at all, and move south onto the killing fields as his predecessors had done.

IBT The Greek archer hereinafter referred to as Rambo kills our vet archer and promotes to 4/4 - zero damage :eek: That was a 5% probability. Thanks pRNG :rolleyes: The Hoplite moves east into the fog.

Turn 51 1725 BC
MM Rome. It has 6 food and 16 shields. Adjust to use the deer for 4fpt, give the mined BGs to Veii and set up for 3spt plus a bonus shield for growth to 6. This will produce an archer next turn. Veii will complete a worker next turn wasting a shield. Antium uses the wine hill as this gives an extra gold piece.

The southern worker completed his mine, starts a road. The scouting warror moves west, sees mountains north and south.

Check the combat calculator again. He's now a 4/4 vet. Our odds are 50% if we attack or 56% if we defend. We could increase our odds in defence to 63% if we move the elite archer to the mountain, but I decide that's too risky. He's too valuable with the pRNG in its current mood. So we'll defend again using the remaining fortified vet. I move the vet archer from the wines hill to the mountain as backup.

Slider remains at 8.1.1 for 13 gpt. F4 no changes, except Greece has another city.

IBT Rambo kills our fortified archer. At least this time the pRNG has the decency to drop him to 2/4. The hoplite returns. Maybe he's interested in our wine hill now that it's undefended :hmm:
Rome completes Archer, starts Settler at pop 6. Veii completes worker, starts Warrior.

Turn 52 1700 BC New worker moves to NW of Rome to start the road towards site #2 and the northern BG, and France. Scouting warrior decides that a Goody Hut this close to Paris that's been left alone is probably a Baddie Hut. Moves North towards mountain, sees more French borders. New archer fortifies in Rome as elite archer moves out to wine hill to discourage hoplite. Check the combat calculator. Our vet archer has 81% chance of killing 2/4 Rambo. Surely his luck will run out this time? Rambo dies, and our vet archer is undamaged but unpromoted.

We are average vs Greece and France. F4 - no change.

MM Rome for 2fpt, 11spt. Veii gets the deer for 3fpt, 3spt. Slider to 7.1.2 for Rome at pop 6.

IBT Hoplite disappears back to the east. It must be that wine hill he wants.

Turn 53 1675 BC Northern worker completed his mine, starts road. Archer gets back on his own mountain. Scouting warrior moves north to mountain. Sees spices and an orange border across a forest - England? Nothing new on the diplo screen.

MM Rome, 11 shields + 2 food, to use the deer for 4fpt, 9spt. Veii 2fpt, 3spt. Sliders 7.1.2 for 11 gpt.

IBT Writing completed. Start Literature. Politely decline the embassies option - m-b doesn't allow it. Southern worker completes road.

Turn 54 1650 BC Worker east to build up road network to site #5. Rambo-killer fortifies on his mountain. Scouting warrior north towards orange border. Now England appears on the radar screen.

MM Veii to use a hill for 4spt to complete warrior next turn. Rome unchanged.

IBT England pops up. Liz offers Mysticism for 90 gold. No thanks, we're saving ourselves for Joan :love:.
Rome completes settler starts archer. Veii completed warrior, starts another.

Turn 55 1625 BC Veii's new warrior fortifies and its archer moves to Rome. Rome's settler and existing archer move south to site #5. I chose #5 because we are going to be negotiating all our gpt with Joan in 2 turns. We can build our next city by then and so increase our max gpt. Also, we are a bit low on resources to defend site #2, which would be build on the turn after we declare war on France. Workers north and south of Rome start roads. Scouting warrior moves NE round English city.

MM Rome. We are now starting the 6 turn standard cycle:

Turn 1: Deer to Veii. 2fpt, 11spt. Start archer.
Turn 2: Deer to Rome. 4fpt, 9spt. Complete archer
Turn 3: Deer to Rome. 4fpt, 9spt+1 bonus. Build warrior
Turn 4: Deer to Veii. 2fpt, 11spt. Start settler
Turn 5: Deer to Rome. 4fpt, 9spt. Continue settler
Turn 6: Deer to Rome. 4fpt, 9spt+1 bonus. Complete settler. Repeat.
Veii picks up the deer when Rome isn't using it, and uses a BG when Rome has the deer. I'll now only mention MM if this varies. Slider back to 8.1.1.

F4: France has Mapmaking, so does England. Greece doesn't.

IBT Worker completes road NW of Rome.

Turn 56 1600 BC Mouse finger failure - moved settler instead of worker. Reloaded. Built Cumae at #5, starts barracks. Settler's escort archer moves to defend mountain east of Cumae. Worker moves to northern BG. Fortify archer in Rome. Scouting warror NE.

IBT Rome completes archer, starts warrior. Antium completes barracks starts archer.

Turn 57 1575 BC New Archer NW/N to protect worker on northern BG.

Temporarily maximise our gpt and zero both sliders to get 20 gpt. Call up Joan.
She wants:

19gpt+142gp+WM for IW+Wheel+MM.
OR
14gpt+142gp+WM for IW+Wheel+Masonry+Myst.

I figure I'm more likely to be able to do another deal with a remaining 6gpt than with 1gpt, so I accept the second option. Joan will sell HBR for 6gpt, or her TM+America+Russia. I decide to go for the second option. We should hold off acquiring HBR until we have some chariots to upgrade, as we can build 3 chariots for every two horses. The contacts will make techs a bit cheaper. I hope they are far away ones, but they didn't cost anything. I declare war on France.

Set up our sliders and MM states again to give 15gpt at 8.1.1.

IBT A French regular warrior appears in the hills N, N, E of Rome.
Rome completes warrior starts settler. Veii completes warrior starts warrior.

Turn 58 1550 BC Worker moves NE of Cumae to build an access road to share defenders to mountains. Worker moves to BG SE of Cumae. Scouting warrior moves North. Archer from Rome moves to hill NW of Antium to cover approaching French warrior.

MM - Swap turns 4 and 5 in Rome's cycle because Veii only needs 1 food to grow so doesn't need the deer this turn. It's possible to wap this pair of turns, but the growth turn should always be at 4fpt if possible, as this gets the growth bonus as long as there's a spare tile producing shield(s).

IBT French warrior moves to hill north of wine hill. He likes that spot as well.

Turn 59 1525 BC We can attack the warrior with a vet or an elite archer. Odds are 78% and 87% respectively. At 87% I consider it's worth trying for an elite victory. Elite archer kills regular warrior. Loses 2 hp to 3/5, no leader.

Scouting warrior NE to mountain overlooking Orleans. Defended by regular spear.

We are now average compared with all known rivals.

IBT
America calls up, offers Babs contact for 22gp. No thanks.
Russia calls up, offers Babs contact for 23gp. No thanks. Damned call centers :gripe:

Turn 60 1500 BC Elite archer fortifies to heal. Scouting warrior N, sees dark blue border - Babs? Looks like we saved some cash. Not added to contact list yet. Worker completes road on northern BG, starts mine.

Rome is MM'd to produce a settler next turn.

Post action repoort
Rome is now about to complete its next settler at the end of its first complete 6 turn full cycle. We have another BG mine in progress in the north that will allow other cities to use an existing one. We have iron in the hills east of Rome and horses west of Veii. With a few more warriors we should be able to hook up our iron and produce legionaries. When we get the horses hooked up we can produce chariots for the same shield cost as archers, with a view to upgrading them when we get our hands on HBR. Feel free to adjust build orders in progress.

I didn't prioritise Mapmaking in the trade round with Joan, as we seem to have plenty of area and civs to work with for the time being. So sea travel doesn't seem critical yet, and we can always trade maps once the others have the tech.

Our next declaration will have to be at turn 77, 1075 BC, on England. I haven't formally introduced us to America and Russia yet, so we can pick which one we want to be our next enemy, or we can choose Babs since we are about to put them on our radar screen.

The save is here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Xteam_SG003_BC1500_01.SAV)

Here's the map of our cute little civilization:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam_SGOTM3_1500BC.jpg

Klarius UP
AdrianE on deck
Capt Buttkick
leif erikson
AlanH back to my to-do list

Looks like an another excellent set of turns Alan!! :goodjob:

Too bad about Rambo - Would have been nice to recruit him as a mercenary. :lol:

Looks like our list of enemies is growing. However, it is nice to see that we don't have to search too far for Iron or Horses. Thank goodness for that, and thanks to M-B as well. To keep from having too early a Golden Age, it might benefit us to build up the mounted arm and use it for active defense. Now we need to get Mathematics and build a few Cats to join our Legions, and then we can take down Greece and expand to a second core, after we get the first one up and running, of course. ;)

AlanH back to my to-do list
To our peril here in the states, we have a jar in which our wives place our tasks on slips of paper. I have forgotten where that jar is, but will pay for that sometime soon, I am sure!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry about the double post, but just looked at the save and I thought I would add my 0.02 cents.

The worker from Veii could be used to connect the horses. Then, in Rome, the rotation could go Chariot, Warrior and Settler. Then we would be producing 2 units that we can upgrade as we need to, and when HBR becomes available. If we feel we need more Archers or as enemy action dwindles our supply of Archers, we can switch back to replenish them.

The only other thought, not to repeat Klarius' mantra, but we could use some more workers. I should do my homework before I speak, but I think we might be able to set up a schedule in Veii that produces workers alternating with units that complements Romes requirements, with some additional worker effort. I'll look.

edit - it might work if we produce warriors in Veii. The cycle would be:

Veii starts with Pop3 and 5 food after producing the Worker.
Turn 1 - Veii has deer, +4 food and 3 shields.
Pop 3 and 9 food
Turn 2 - Veii doesn't have deer +2 food and 3 shields.
Veii grows and depending on the governor, (forest or grass) gets an extra 2 shields??? So Pop4 and 0 food.
Turn 3 - Veii doesn't have deer, +2 food and 3 shields
Veii produces a warrior and is at Pop4 and 2 food. Production to worker.
Turn 4 - Veii has deer +4 and 3 shields.
Pop 4 and 6 food.
Turn 5 Veii doesn't have deer +2 food and 3 shields.
Pop 4 and 8 food.
Turn 6 - Veii doesn't have deer +2 food and 3 shields
Veii should grow and, if forest, get 2 shields producing a worker. Veii would start the next cycle with Pop 4 and 0 food.

First cycle would work but later cycles I don't think will?? Sorry, I tried. :crazyeye:

@AlanH:
I'm at work now so can't look at the save, but expect to be able to play this evening.
Nice turns :goodjob: , everything roughly working as planned.
We have to expect some losses (another reason not to look on unit support cost - this may go down rapidly :cry: ).

One thing: I think we have now also contact to America and Russia, because of the declined trades.
Only extortion was made an exception by mad-bax, because from there you don't get into the trade screen.
Because it's anyway a nice sequence we should just assume America and Russia as our next enemies. I will just contact them it that order anyways, so we are on the safe side :crazyeye:.

One small point with the trades: I would have contacted the others right away. They may also have map making, so we could have sold them our map for quite some money.
Now Joan will have sold our knowledge of the world in the meantime. I don't know what the price was, but I would also have put priority in getting one world map.
So my first action will be to check with our new contacts and see what we can achieve w/o haggling :crazyeye: :cry: .

@Leif I didn't check your calculations, because I couldn't look at the save.
But generally don't try to make sophisticated plans for more than one city (Rome) at a time. The interaction with sharing tiles is too complicated to calculate in advance and even changes with more cities.
How I typically handle such things is:

-We are military -> new city armory first when it can get two shields on average on size 1. And we should look to it that this holds true for newly founded cities.

-If we have to found cities with only one spt -> worker right away unless we have already enough, which probably will never be the case. Note, in my games I never have enough workers, though I try hard to follow my rules.
Armory next.

-If the city cannot get to five uncorrupted shields w/o tile improvement, keep it small, peel of a worker at size 2 or 3 and make warriors, this process repeats until enough tiles are improved.

-Absolute :nono: : reg unit first in new town.
If war goes bad and we don't have enough units rather don't make the settler in Rome. When on size 6 you can delay the next settler by three turns, by the sequence warrior->warrior->worker
Remark: iron should be unhooked most of the time, otherwise we limit our production options too much.

-Towns which can reach 5 spt on average have to be assessed closely, but also should make workers before they stop growing completely (look on every town which has only 1 fpt, when in doubt -> worker).

I will post this evening after I looked on the save to detail my plans.
When I have played and uploaded the save, expect that it takes me at least another hour to post an real after action report (raw turn-log will come quick). Then it may be already well after midnight in Germany, so don't expect any coherent discussion from me, though you can probably keep me awake by cross-posting with me.

Edit: Tried to format more reader friendly

W/r to reg units being a nono. I often find that in 2 food, 2 shield towns, that warrior-worker is a nice sequence to start the town off.

W/r to reg units being a nono. I often find that in 2 food, 2 shield towns, that warrior-worker is a nice sequence to start the town off.
That's ok for normal games, but not any war variant with a military civ.
We don't need reg warriors for scouting and on emperor you cannot just go out and expect easy promotion with barbs.
All our units should be vet from now on. A 2sh town produces a barracks in 10 turns, a first vet warrior is only delayed by 8-10 turns (depending what we can work with the second laborer).
We also don't need MP, because the city should be connected before it grows to size 2 and also at least one unit should anyways have accompanied the settler or should be nearby.

@Leif I didn't check your calculations, because I couldn't look at the save.
But generally don't try to make sophisticated plans for more than one city (Rome) at a time. The interaction with sharing tiles is too complicated to calculate in advance and even changes with more cities.
How I typically handle such things is:

-We are military -> new city armory first when it can get two shields on average on size 1. And we should look to it that this holds true for newly founded cities.

-If we have to found cities with only one spt -> worker right away unless we have already enough, which probably will never be the case. Note, in my games I never have enough workers, though I try hard to follow my rules.
Armory next.

-If the city cannot get to five uncorrupted shields w/o tile improvement, keep it small, peel of a worker at size 2 or 3 and make warriors, this process repeats until enough tiles are improved.
After flunking my first exam, thought I would try to work something out. :crazyeye: As I said, I didn't think it would work without a second mined BG, which we don't have. Problem is that you can't depend on the governor to choose the proper tile for a shield or 2 at Pop growth and I don't think we have worked the terrain well enough yet around Veii.
Edit: Tried to format more reader friendly
Thanks, much easier for me. :goodjob:

Was a little baw (bored at work), so did think about where to position cities.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam_SGOTM3_1500BC_k.jpg

I know 2 is at RCP 4, but it's such a strong location and helps Veii with another BG to share.
This city has the potential for at least a nice worker factory, probably can make also settlers later in 5-6 turns.
Still first orders would be barracks and some units.
Some time later a granary and chop the game.
Being as short of workers as we are at the time we should use tiles, which initially don't need improvement as much as we can.
The potential northeasterly city sites don't look very attractive to me at the moment. Attackers will come over mountains and hills -> very bad for active defense.
Rome itself can be defended well agains northish attackers.
The southwesterly position doesn't add any strong tiles, it has to leech of the already improved tiles other cities can also use.

@Leif
With the tight build we have, you can make sure what the governor selects.
The first idea of the governor is the strongest tile wrt to sum of food, shields and commerce. If you block stronger tiles with other cities, he will select the strongest left over.
While working the game with 4fpt not offset by 1fpt tiles, the selection will always be the highest shield tile.

@Klarius - I have taken the map you made and addes some proposed changes for you to consider. I thought that, if we are going to allow some distance 4 cities, then we should consider them more fully.

I agree that site 2 is a very strong position and that we should build it. The southern site picks up a cattle square and gives Veii another forest square to work, I think. The northern site is away from the mountains by a square and would fill out the workable tiles to the west along the river, perhaps not too much use immediately, so it can be built last of the 3.

I think site 2 first, southern site second and somewhere north third.

If I don't get back before your turns, good luck Klarius!! :thumbsup:

@leif: I can confirm there is no problem with ensuring the governor does what you need. When the BG mine is complete north/north west of Rome we'll be able to free a mined BG for Veii's exclusive use. We MUST ensure that Rome is on a 4fpt phase of its cycle each time it grows, then the iron hill will deliver a two shield bonus. We shall have lots of good shield production to juggle with. I'm pretty sure I only wasted one shield in Veii during my turns.

@Klarius: I doubt if anyone has anything that France wants, so she probably hasn't sold our map. Also, remember we can't discuss alternative payment methods with the AI, we have to take what they offer or turn it down. Right now England will only offer Babs for our world map. Joan valued our map at 24 gold in 1575 BC, based on my tests of her price list. Since we can already see the Babs borders it seems worth holding onto our map until after we've made that contact next turn. Also, our reputation is in the gutter - we'll get no more gpt deals.

You're right, M-B's contact rules mean we've already spoken to Russia and America. I was thinking of the ransom demand situation. So I have just opened their contact screens so that we can discuss them. They don't have mapmaking yet, so we can't sell them our map anyway. America has no cash, Russia has 36 and HBR. [When I opened the screens I got the greeting messages as if this was our first meeting, so I'm not sure we had officially met as far as Firaxis was concerned.]

PS: Re city placement. I checked, and the new site 2 is not on a river, so it can't cycle from 5 to 7 without an aquaduct.

PPS: World map was very expensive from Joan. We are not allowed to trade for a mix of commodity and techs, and I felt the techs were important. After I had them, the 6gpt we had left was not enough to buy Joan's world map, that's why we got her TM. We can still get Liz's TM for our WM if we ask for her TM price.

If we have half our core cities at RCP = 3 and half our cities at RCP = 4, we're not taking advantage of that tactic anymore. In fact, it's pretty close to what I usually did with ICS before I ever heard about RCP.

I think we should consider max one city at RCP = 4. It doesn't matter much in the long run if a city isn't placed on the river. So we don't build a 'duct there and it stays at size 6. Instead we build another city in the next ring, on the river.

For instance: instead of Leif's proposed N N NW (from Rome) spot, build on the hill N N. The outer ring can then get a city at RCP = 6 on the hill N N N N of Rome.
Similarly, in the S, build a city on the RCP = 3 at S SE SE. The Cow will be worked either by a city at S S S SE SE (6.5 distance from capitol) or by a city at S S SW SW SW (distance 6).

@ klarius: instead of your proposed #2 site, we can start the outer ring by building at W W W W. In that case, I'd move your #1 spot so that it lies W NW NW of Rome.

Sorry for not making it clear with a screen, but I'm at work too :sad:

@Leif
I picked 1 first, because there is a road already.
The cow site is a potential good one, but needs a road first and then it is still two turns away from Rome for reinforcements.
As long as we have strong 1 turn distance sites available, we should settle them (as I wrote above not NE).
Wrt to movement from Rome the site between the cow and the lake is not farther away (that would be a classical RCP 6 second ring site).
Still the RCP 4 cow site is a nice option. But not in my turn set (don't have the workers to spare for the road in dangerous territory).
Edit:
@Capt Bk (cross posted)
The outer ring first is IMO not a good thing for our variant, this could be settled only later and I want the game now (greed!).
The good thing at number 2 is also that it can share the Rome game. With granary and using this and the other game we can get to 2-2-3 growth rate w/o hampering Rome. I will have to check how corruption is really working out there, but that could ideally mean a worker and a settler in 7 turns.

I still think we can fit in 7 RCP = 3 cities with middle to high production. That's very good.

Just to add to the confusion, and since I can, here's a dot map. I like the Captain's RCP view of the world, so I think I've incorporated what he's proposing, and extended it, to show two possible rings at 3.x and 6.x with no departure from RCP.

Yup, my thoughts excatly :goodjob:

Okay I'm open to advise. ;)
It will be difficult to convince me that my number 1 is not the best first option, but not settling number 2 and instead the N-N site (which anyways would have been 3 on my list) is possible for me, if the team has strong feelings about RCP.
I will definitely not go out to RCP 6 in my turnset. :eek:

You guys have been busy this weekend.

I'm with Alan on the city placement. Klarius' number 1 should be the next founded city.

As usual a bit late, because this point slipped my mind in the various spam posts I already made in the meantime. :rolleyes:
Alan you said that nobody was offering a world map, but as I understand the rules, we are allowed to ask for it as long as we don't combine it with techs.
We are allowed to give whatever the civ wants in gold or techs.
So I will try to acquire a world map, at least as soon as there are a few people around with MM. Then I will try to sell it around at face value.

The only place we can go for it is England right now. The other two don't have MM. If you ask Liz for it she says they're not interested because we don't have enough cash to pay her price. She won't consider gpt.

When I was looking at Joan's price list, buying her wmap as part of the deal would have left us with fewer techs. I'd have to go back and reload the autosave to see what our options were, but at the time I didn't feel a map was worth the techs we'd have missed.

Ok another double spam ;) .
I'm now at home and opened the save. MM seems ok so far.
I see that I have the option to scout a little before deciding on where to settle and I will probably do it.

A general remark about RCP:
Don't settle cities just, because you can squeeze in another one on ring 1. It has to give also advantages like accessing tiles otherwise missed.
Every additional city on ring 1 increases corruption on ring 2.
The classical example in our case is the NE city site, it can only live from the grass other cities could use as well. It even cannot get shield rich unless we improve hills or mountains. So I wouldn't settle this site, at least not before a government change.

@AlanH, just see you (cross-)posted.
I may have valued a map more, but that's just me :D . I hate it to stumble around blindly. So no map for me right now, but I may invest some money a few turns later (maybe map making gets distributed more).

I will now train a little in GOTM33. I just started there the phase which well could result in non-oscillating war to the end :cool: .
I look again on things posted here in maybe around hour, then start.
BTW got it! :D

[edit: crossposted]

Klarius's #2 is still an option. If it's settled early before the rest of the RCP 3 ring then it will have low rank corruption for a while. As the rest of the first ring is established we'll lose some of the benefits of the BGs to corruption as its rank increases to 8. It will only increase the rank of the second ring by one, and the second ring is going to be some way in the future so it's not a big issue.

I'm not sure that we have to stick with the first ring until it's complete. As Klarius mentioned before, we need defendable cities. For this reason the north eastern quarter of the first ring may need to be settled later than the western and south western second ring locations until we can start using our legions to tame Alex.

I may have valued a map more, but that's just me
I just rechecked. We'd have lost one tech (Myst or Masonry), and the remaining 2gpt wouldn't have bought anything else - contacts or techs. So it's a choice of her world map vs a tech + 2 contacts. This is all 20:20 hindsight of course, but I valued the extra tech higher than a map at the time. Of the techs available, Mysticism is a step toward Monarchy, Masonry is a first level tech and a step towards cats, Iron and Wheel are essential to our military objectives. Contacts are useful to keep tech costs down, particularly as we can only pay cash now. I'm not sure how the wmap would help us a great deal at the moment, and we should be able to trade for it as map making becomes available more widely

As usual a bit late, because this point slipped my mind in the various spam posts I already made in the meantime. :rolleyes:
Alan you said that nobody was offering a world map, but as I understand the rules, we are allowed to ask for it as long as we don't combine it with techs.
We are allowed to give whatever the civ wants in gold or techs.
So I will try to acquire a world map, at least as soon as there are a few people around with MM. Then I will try to sell it around at face value.
As I read the rules, this is correct.

I'm with the Capt. and Alan regarding the city placement. :goodjob:

@Klarius - I am probably late on this but I think we should scout out to the SW of Veii. It is a nice area and I can see no reason, unless one of the soon to be enemy civs is near there, to begin the outer ring there.

edit - Just rechecked the map Alan prepared. I would delay building the city NE, NE, NE of Rome for quite a while. Not only would it be tough to defend, it is food poor.

Founded the cities how I initially intended.
It's just best for our production at the moment.
All cities are connected. Defense is very easy.
We now everybody on our continent.
We have tons of warriors and archers.
Not much war action just killed a couple of warriors and some archers impaled themselves on our warriors.
Tech pace up in the north is murderous. Everybody is building TGL already and I don't know how we should get a MGL, when our enemies don't send anything at us.
I didn't connect the iron. Our core is not prepared well for a golden age and the AI attacks are harmless at the current time.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/x_team_1250_1.jpg

Detailed turn log:
Preturn:
MM OK, take a warrior out of Rome to scout city site 1.
More good tiles over the river for second ring.
Also move a warrior out of Veii.

Turn 1:
Rome: settler completes->warrior
warrior first is now sligtly better.
Note due to the iron we don't need the "magic" 5 mBGs any more.
But we need a mined plain grass, after the last BG is mined.
I give one mBG to Antium.
Veii: worker completes->warrior
settler to site 1
A greek archer is coming our way.

Turn 2.
Northern scout sees horses hooked up in Hammi's territory.
Now I finally use shift-D and yes Babs are already on our diplomacy list, but they don't turn up on F4.
I dial Hammi up (so he's next, Otto has to wait ;) ).
No techs. He knows everybody we know of.
I also get Liz' territory map for our world map. She's W of Joan. Has horses already hooked up, 6 cities, but no iron in her territory.
One worker mines the BG at Cumae. I want the other back in the core. To not waste turns, by moving I start to mine the wine hill. I don't think it's time already to hook up the iron.
I also don't hook up the horses now but make a road to site 2, though I'm still undecided where to settle. The road is needed anyways.
I dance around with several warriors and archers.
Rome warrior completes->archer

IBT:
Greek archer looses attack to archer on mountain, no losses.
Babs call up because our scout is in their territory.

Turn 3
Archer completes in Antium->warrior, I want more warriors to block mountains.
Rome MM for growth with picking iron. Only need 4 mBG for that.
Move a lot of troops. Scout W finds more good land and the western coast.
Scout N moves out of Hammi's to Joan's on a mountain to harrass a little.
Dial up everybody: Abe and Cathy have MM now. CoL is widely afloat. Only Hammi is as backwards as we are. And Cathy has Lit already. A murderous tech pace up there.
Cathy is already building TGL. If she sells lit there's cascade risk, due to sevaeral pyramid builds.
I buy TMs for our WM and some change. Both are N of Joan.
Looks like Otto has to be NE.

IBT
a greek warrior appears NE of Antium
a Greek archer impales itself to a warrior on a mountain.

Turn 4
Dance around with warriors some more and fortify scout N. This may keep Joan away a little longer and I don't see how I should reach Otto.
Diplo check. Abe has now lit also. Still nobody sold us to Otto-> he's probably as poor as Hammi.
MM Rome to 10 sh.

IBT
a lone french warrior comes from the north

Turn 5
Not much, a few movements some units fortify.
Diplo check: Liz has now lit also. Joan talks has also lit and philo. Math is also around. Cascade to TGL is already imminent (two pyramid builds at civs with lit).
Rome still at 10 sh.

IBT
Greek and french warriors move. If they want to get anywhere they will have to go through my kill zones.

Turn 6
Warrior completes in Antium->archer and Veii->worker. I wasn't content with the performance of Veii, so I now decide that the next city will indeed be my original No. 2 location as strong city and giving Veii an additional BG.
MM Rome to 7sh ! I have already 21 and the growth will get the Iron.
My eastern scout finds Sparta. It has horses hooked up.
Diplo check: Nothing new

IBT
The greek and french warriors walk into the traps. A greek archer comes hunting my eastern scout.

Turn 7
Kill the two warriors on open ground. Continue scouting N, E and W.
Rome settler completes settler-> warrior. MM @ 10sh
Settler moves to site 2.
Diplo check: Not much, but we could afford lit now.
I decide to do it, it will not get much cheaper soon (if we have more gold they will still want all). Trade it to babs for contact with germans and 2 gold. And to germans for their world map. The germans arent going out much it seems. Could have gotten HBR for it but didn't want it now. All the archers we are building currently can be changed to chariots.
Change science to poly @ min.

IBT nothing interesting

Turn 8
Pompeii founded on no 2. -> rax (not quite sure maybe should go for granary directly we have already quite a few rax ).
I now have more MM options for Veii and can get 4 uncorrupted shields (before I had to go for 5 with one waste).
Rome warrior->archer
Send some more harrassment warriors into Greece.

IBT
Eastern scout on mountain attacked by archer. Redlined but promoted to veteran. Another greek warrior appears near a warrior.

Turn 9
Change all archer builds to chariot. We have lots of archers already.
Veii worker completes->chariot.

IBT french archer impales itself on our northern scout.

Turn 10
Move some units do some MM nothing special.

Rome is on size six to complete the next settler in 3. Important is to MM to the game next turn. Next driver doesn't need to do the MM as tight as I did it. Just make sure not to break the 6 turn cycle.
Note that in our ring 1 cities the 5th shield is corrupt.
It doesn't help to give a city two mBGs at the moment.
I didn't loose a single unit, so we rather have too much than too few.

Not much to say, it's already late.
I think the granary for Pompeii is best in the moment. We have enough barracks. I would like the game chopped shortly before the granary completes. It should at least be a top notch worker pump. But could probably also churn out settlers, if its rank isn't getting too high.

Continue to improve the core. Mine also plain grass. In a golden age it's as good as a mined BG.

I would continue to settle only connected cities. Make roads first then send settlers.

Our current enemies are very quiet.
Continue running around with warriors in their territory.
I intended some pillaging in greek territory next.
Maybe we should attack a hoplite with a warrior, so Greece can send a few more archers. They are too harmless in the moment. I only could manage one elite victory and no elite promotions.

Well played, Klarius. Sounds like we've recovered the units I lost. As you say, we do need to have more battle opportunities. If we can build a nice stack of horses then a visit to Joan might be in order.

Klarius
AdrianE UP
Capt Buttkick on deck
leif erikson
AlanH

Have fun, Adrian.

Sounds like another excellent turn set!! :goodjob:

Tried to download the save but was told "the document contained no data", guess the gotm server must be down or busy. Can say anything until I have a look. :eek:

See you in the morning, Good Luck Adrian!! ;)

Tech pace up in the north is murderous. Everybody is building TGL already and I don't know how we should get a MGL, when our enemies don't send anything at us.
I didn't connect the iron. Our core is not prepared well for a golden age and the AI attacks are harmless at the current time.


Welcome to Emperor. The place where 40 turn gambits usually fail. Don't forget that this was based on a cracker GOTM with all the evil that implies. In order to survive, you have to check every AI every turn to look for trade opportunities.

I couldn't access the save. I'll try again in the morning. It looks like the server has issues.

At this point we need to decide what we are going to do about eliminating our first victim. I don't think we can afford to be at war with 3 or 4 emporer civs. Sooner or later we will get swamped.

I propose changing all our builds to warriors and mass producing them, hook up iron and launch a SOD of legions at Greece. I don't think we can wait for mathematics and cats unfortunately.

Welcome to Emperor. The place where 40 turn gambits usually fail. Don't forget that this was based on a cracker GOTM with all the evil that implies. In order to survive, you have to check every AI every turn to look for trade opportunities.

I won a lot 40 turn gambits on emperor and also lost quite a few.
The interesting point is by how much we lost. We weren't half through lit and it was already around.

The AI usually isn't interested in lit.
In other emperor games I had monopoly on lit till much later (e.g. Gotm33 :D ).
So probably there is already more around. We may see the first AI go medieval within the next two turn sets.
That's not emperor pace, that's more like deity+.
We will loose on poly also, but our research will make it cheaper.
We may get a little trading opportunity there.

Well, I did check diplo every turn and one should, but we cannot do much.
Edit: And don't forget, you need shift-D to access Babylon.
We cannot haggle so we pay high prices.
We cannot pay with gpt any more, so we cannot afford monopoly prices to broker.

While I was playing, I was MMing and shuffling around units, so I didn't think much about strategy.
Some random thoughts now.

Building our empire went well. We should continue to grow and even try to speed up. Granary in Pompeii could help for that. We have still a lot of free dirt around.

BTW Pompeii could be a nice FP location for a palace jump into the north (well dream on, klarius). There is still a lot good ground west of Pompeii.

Our first two enemies are very low in aggression. They just refuse to send noticeable invasion forces :cry: . So we have no training opportunities.
As much that I hate to do it early, our only chance for a leader is probably invading Greece and fight against hoplites :cry: . For Greece we will need legions and by that have a golden age earlier than I like.
Easier would be France, but they are so far away. Horses would be the way to go for them.

The other option is:
-Give up on TGL right away. Ignore our enemies (except pillaging and harassment missions) and just build up the empire.
-Build libraries in core cities as soon as it is feasible.
-Delay golden age until we are in a different government.
-More libraries and fast research in golden age.

Another very risky option:
-Connect iron to get a golden age right away.
-Forfeit further expansion and let Rome grow, even merge in workers as long as we can work tiles with shields.
-Go for TGL in Rome. We can beat the newly started builds for sure, but the pyramid cascade is looming.
-If we loose, we have probably only half the cities and no TGL, then we are really in deep ...

I'm for continuing the empire build up (first priority) and further delaying the golden age. Send archers and warriors into france, build chariots. Its not necessary to send spears with them there is enough high defense ground.
But if people aren't confident sending troops w/o spear cover, I will bite my tongue as long as the number of spears isn't getting too high.

Acquire HBR after we have maybe 10 chariots. Upgrade and reinforce the french invasion.

Send a few warriors and archers into Greece only for targets of opportunity and pillaging in the meantime. That will keep the greek troops in Greece.

Our empire would have very few troops in it. But by constantly producing new units, there should be always enough defense. MP only when needed for happiness. We can shuffle around troops easily, because we will continue to build roads to every city, won't we.

Edit:
About the next cities:
I would settle one more RCP 3 site. While doing that build a road to one of the strong RCP 6 sites. (cow-lake, or floodplain-game) and settle that with the second settler.
There's probably no gain in letting our inner ring cities grow above size 3, as long as we don't have more improved tiles. So phase in workers.
Never work tiles with less than 2 food, except for evening out the food box. In the long run food is always worth more than shields.

Edit2: In hindsight Pompeii may be suboptimal and we could have afforded to go out to RCP6 and leave the city unconnected for some time.
But I really hope that the granary will be up and the game cut, when I come up again, then there are really extreme good MM options and I will have a lot of fun optimising. :lol:

Still I think it was a sensible move to keep the build tight at this time and concentrate the workers mostly close to the core. The remaining RCP3 sites just wouldn't have added much.

As soon as Pompeii grows to size two I would give the Rome deer to it everytime it is free, to let it grow fast.
Then it should also be around the time to start the lumber operation on the other deer.

And don't forget, you need shift-D to access Babylon.
Tip: If you shift-right click an empty spot or an existing leaderhead on F4 then you can select an invisible leader to put there. That leader remains there for the rest of your turnset. Don't know if it persists for the next player.

Tip: If you shift-right click an empty spot or an existing leaderhead on F4 then you can select an invisible leader to put there. That leader remains there for the rest of your turnset. Don't know if it persists for the next player.
Thanks!
I knew there had to be some way, even in vanilla but din't find it.
I'm spoiled by only playing PTW and C3C lately :p .

The MySQL database server is out of action. This is the wee beastie that powers the submissions system. If possible, please can you upload the save to the uploads8 directory and link to it here?

The MySQL database server is out of action. This is the wee beastie that powers the submissions system. If possible, please can you upload the save to the uploads8 directory and link to it here?
Can do. About 5-6 hours from now, when I'm at home.
Edit:
But the upload did work yesterday. So check if the server comes up before. It may be there already.
In fact I found it Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Xteam_SG003_BC1250_01.SAV)

Our first two enemies are very low in aggression. They just refuse to send noticeable invasion forces :cry: . So we have no training opportunities.
As much that I hate to do it early, our only chance for a leader is probably invading Greece and fight against hoplites :cry: . For Greece we will need legions and by that have a golden age earlier than I like.
Easier would be France, but they are so far away. Horses would be the way to go for them.
Just looked at the save, thanks for posting it in the forum BTW, and I think the map tells the story about the aggression level of the AI. The Greeks don't appear to have much for production as they have mined grassland squares around Athens and the rest are hills or mountains. I don't think they can pump units very well. France is quite distant with no infrastructure, roads, and a lot of mountains and hills.

My thoughts on strategy align closely with Adrian's comments. The map has most of the civs north of us, all together. I don't like the idea of going after France first for a couple of reasons. First, as I said, their are no roads leading there to support military ops. Second, I think that once the Greeks change government, they will have a lot more shields available and will become more productive. Third, as we destroy French cities (we can't capture them), we are giving more expansion space to the civs up north and allowing them to become more powerful.

I think we need to go after Greece soon, despite the early GA. The other advantage of Greece is that there are some Luxs there (2 iirc) that we will need when we switch governments. Once we have Greece destroyed and consolidated, hopefully some libraries in our cities, and more workers, we can begin the expansion to the north in a way that allows us to defend what we take and move forces easily.

I had hoped that we might have been able to use Greek territory for a second core, but the terrain is not suited to it. North will be better, imho. Because we can not capture cities, I suggest we look for a settler pump site to build the Forbidden Palace in, so we can pump settlers to fuel our expansion. Hopefully, we can come up with at least one Great Leader to build it. :rolleyes:

I don't see how we are going to build the Great Library at this point without a GL, and that means we have to get at someone, the Greeks, in order to generate one. A question on the Great Library, in order to get all the techs we lack should we capture it, don't we need to hold it for one turn. If that is so, then it will be useless to us if we capture it because we have to destroy all captured cities before changing turn?? :eek:

In summary, Greece first, and soon, and then some expansion (need cities to produce Gold and research), libraries and workers, and then head north to see what damage we can do. It would be nice if our rivals would have a few wars amongst themselves, but we can't encourage that without embassies. We will have to trade as much as we can to get the techs needed to change governments and get to Knights and Cavs. It is going to be a tough haul, I think. But anything is possible!! :D

Good luck Adrian!! :salute:

edit - Forgot to say that I am uncomfortable with the idea of marching up to France with an enemy behind us.

@Leif
A few comments.

It's definitely not allowed to capture TGL and hold it for a turn. So that option is out.

No matter who we go for, we should not slow down expansion. We have enough production already.

I still don't like the golden age now. So at least a little bit warring with the french would be nice. No need to destroy many cities, just leader fishing.

I think the Greek can be controled by pillaging their land. As the AI works they will not redo any improvements as long as we have some troops in their territory. They don't let workers work under hoplite cover. I would use only warriors for that and accept to loose some. That would free our back to go for Joan.

With our tight build a second FP core is not good (it would also have to have a RCP 3 setup). We should have the FP in our tight setup and a more loose build (RCP 5 or bigger) around a palace in the north. That's the way to profit most of the rank corruption bug in vanilla w/o really exploiting it (by an isolated palace).

And BTW I didn't really upload the save now, it was already on the server. I just guessed the file name.
Alan should have known better than me where to look for it :p

Edit:
@AdrianE
No matter what you do don't forget the other enemy. Troops should move in both directions, at least to be informed about troop movements.
And again: the AI will keep most of their troops at home when they feel their cities threatened.
Warriors (or even :eek: spearman :eek: ) on mountains are enough for that, even though they are no real threat.

On 1075BC I have to declare war on England. That will be my seventh turn. That will put us at war with 3 civs.

I'm thinking we want to send some spears and the elite archers into greek territory to pillage/fish for a great leader. I will also start to hook up the iron. In preparation for that I'll build more vet warriors for upgrades. I will also scout to the south to find more city sites.

It appears that our maintenance costs are quite high so we need to get some more cities planted.

The location of Pompeii bothers me a bit. It seems poorly placed. We have a ring at 3 and it has been placed at 4. Do we want to keep RCP or not? The site at distance 6 (4W of Rome) would have been a better spot in the long term.

Our options are:
1. move Pompeii now and refound at distance 6 (change build to a settler)
2. live with it and put a 2nd ring in at RCP4
3. live with it for now and build our 2nd ring at 6 and later abandon/move Pompeii
4. abandon RCP totally

I think 3 is our best option.

Research options:
We have a 10%, 40 turn gambit going on polytheism. We know it will not succeed. We are 3 turns in. Do we want to switch to something else? Do we want to research HBR @max sustainable?

We need cash for the upgrades and to buy other techs. A scientist might be a better than 10%. If we go with a scientist we give up 2F, 2S,2$ or less. What is 10% of our economy?

I also note we are running 20% lux. We need to get that down. MPs and/or another lux would be useful. Hopefully there is one near us.

Adrian

Again, there is absolutely no problem with having one city on range 4 as long as you don't build more cities within the second ring as you had done anyways.
Pompeii is on a very strong location.
I would rather not settle some of the weaker range 3 positions than giving up the potential worker/settler pump.

Don't put more cities on range 4 that would be too crowded. Exception would be if it replaces a range 3 city and has very strong tiles, to offset the increased corruption.

And I don't think we will have to abandon it ever. Just build the second ring normally. At some point we have to decide on FP or palace relocation, then its time to think about relocations or abandoning.

Don't research HBR, you will be able to buy it cheaper than the research cost. You just have to check when you have just enough cash to afford it.

I don't see that we have laborers to spare for one scientist. 10% is only 2 gold in the moment.

The 20% lux is necessary as long as Rome is at size 6. It has already max MP. At size 5 you can turn down to 10%.

Sure another lux would be fine, but it shouldn't disturb the general build-up. The lux cost is not high in the moment in gpt. Some more roads and cities will easily bring in the cash. The same worker turns invested in improvement of the core can net more than a connection of a lux.

And BTW I didn't really upload the save now, it was already on the server. I just guessed the file name.
Alan should have known better than me where to look for it :p

:blush: Sorry, not thinking straight. I was in a tearing rush as I saw the server was down this morning, and didn't check what else was broken on that server, though in retrospect, obviously HTTP was still working.

For future reference, I did try to make it very easy for you to copy/paste the save url from the upload screen into your turn log post. :p

@Leif
A few comments.
It's definitely not allowed to capture TGL and hold it for a turn. So that option is out.
My only point in saying this is that I couldn't remember how it worked. Do we have to wait for the between turns phase, when the AI's move, to get the techs from the Great Library, or do we get them during our movement turn as soon as we capture it? If it happens during the inter-turn, then it will not benefit us. :confused:
No matter who we go for, we should not slow down expansion. We have enough production already.
I agree with this completely!! :thumbsup:
I still don't like the golden age now. So at least a little bit warring with the french would be nice. No need to destroy many cities, just leader fishing.
I am concerned that the only reason we are holding off taking on the Greeks is the Golden Age issue. If you would like, perhaps we should target Mathematics as the next tech we acquire and build sufficient cats to go after the Greeks with archers, a spear and cats. Leader fishing with the French is fine, but it'll require a fair number of turns to get the leader back to our territory to be of any use, and they should be escorted over such a distance?? I am trying to understand the reluctance to remove a civ from the game. I thought the variant was victory by conquest at the earliest possible date. I think we have the production and capability to make Greece disappear.
I think the Greek can be controled by pillaging their land. As the AI works they will not redo any improvements as long as we have some troops in their territory. They don't let workers work under hoplite cover. I would use only warriors for that and accept to loose some. That would free our back to go for Joan.
I'm afraid I must be quite dumb, unless your only objective is to harrass Joan and go leader fishing because she doesn't have Hoplites. This goes back to what I was asking much earlier. I guess I don't understand your concept for the game, what are we trying to do, the overall picture of the strategy. I'm not following the subtleties of your game. :crazyeye: Sorry!! As I have said earlier, taking Joan down now doesn't serve our purpose baecause the void will be filled by the northern civs, who will only gain in power because of it.
With our tight build a second FP core is not good (it would also have to have a RCP 3 setup). We should have the FP in our tight setup and a more loose build (RCP 5 or bigger) around a palace in the north. That's the way to profit most of the rank corruption bug in vanilla w/o really exploiting it (by an isolated palace).
I thought we discussed this in SGOTM2 and Alan explained that the Forbidden Palace works more like a shield of distance instead of specific distances. I guess I misunderstood, yet again, how it works. :twitch:

@Adrian - I would suggest we leave Pompeii alone for now and simply develop the next ring around it, whatever distance we are going ot use for it.

First point: Yes you only get techs in the next interturn. So no joy! :cry:
But we aren't even allowed to look into the city screen. We have to raze directly, when we are asked to hold or raze. It would be strange if we get techs by that ;)

I think it's also too early to remove the Greeks. We have still at least 8-10 cities to settle, before we need new dirt.
Where shall the settlers come from. By the time we get to settle Greek territory, the northern civs will already send their settlers out in galleys or on long marches. They are already now running out of space. Removing a civ while another moves in doesn't help us. So we need a lot military to guard the empty space.

If I said go for Joan. I meant send the majority of our units towards her, not razing a lot of her cities.

FP: Yes it acts as a shield, but only up to the distance of the city closest to palace. So a tight build around the palace makes the FP much less effective.

Klarius

Killing off the greeks is NOT about taking their territory. It is about reducing the number of enemies we face and their production. If we don't prune the Greeks significantly then we will be facing 3 and then 4 and then 5 full strength technically superior AI's. Eventually we will get buried by the flood of enemy units. Sooner or later Joan, liz and alex will have horsemen, and then knights.

After we settle 8-10 more cities (48 to 60 turns at current settler production) we will be at war with 5 and soon 6 civs. I don't like our chances then.

I should be able to play this evening. Alan, Captain, any comments before I start?

I've had a chance to scan the previous posts.

1) Pompeii is in a good location, and I agree with Klarius that there is no good reason to move it. Sure it will have a higher corruption rank than if it were at radius 3.x, but it's main objectve is to provide food from the deer. Food is power, and food is not subject to corruption.

2) Re. offensive operations: I suggested a horse offensive against France to make some leader opportunities because it will avoid an early GA and horses are going to do better against spears than against hoplites. However, having now seen the map, I think maybe we should make surgical strikes against Greece as soon as possible. Thermopylae represents a 'beachhead' for Greece to mount offensives against us. If we razed it and moved our defensive shield forward into the mountains behind it we could develop our territory more securely. They have horses hooked up. We should pillage their horse road otherwise they could become more dangerous, particularly if they trigger their GA.

3) @leif: I understand your desire for a strategic vision. Up until now survival has been our prime objective. I think we are all relieved to still be alive and kicking at this stage in the game, but maybe the worst is yet to come. We have not so far been in any shape to try to conquer any of our rivals, and I don't think we've reached that state yet. We may well reach a position where we have four or five wars going at once, so it's going to get worse before it gets better. While there's still empty space on the map I think the AI will continue to focus on filling it rather than sending major offensives against us. We do need to be aware that the available space is most to our immediate north, and probably to our unexplored south west.

Our first conquest victim has to be Greece, both to eliminate a threat at our backs, and because they are nearest and the territory we take will be easier to defend. This should happen as soon as we can muster 15 legions to do the job while we continue to defend our northern borders. We need to be prepared to occupy and defend the Greek territories we take over, so we need several settlers. Our defence can be pretty thin in that area as our only threat will be from seaborne invasions, and we know how wonderful the AI is at them :rolleyes:

After we roll over Greece we have to move against whoever we have declared against who is next door to us at the time. That may not be France, of course.

If you are looking for a magic ploy, such as the one we tried in SGOTM 2 of persuading the AI to prebuild the UN for us, I don't have one (yet ;) ), and given the (lack of) success of my last one, I'm not sure I'll tell you if I do think of one :hmm:

3) @leif: I understand your desire for a strategic vision. Up until now survival has been our prime objective. I think we are all relieved to still be alive and kicking at this stage in the game, but maybe the worst is yet to come. We have not so far been in any shape to try to conquer any of our rivals, and I don't think we've reached that state yet. We may well reach a position where we have four or five wars going at once, so it's going to get worse before it gets better. While there's still empty space on the map I think the AI will continue to focus on filling it rather than sending major offensives against us. We do need to be aware that the available space is most to our immediate north, and probably to our unexplored south west.

Our first conquest victim has to be Greece, both to eliminate a threat at our backs, and because they are nearest and the territory we take will be easier to defend. This should happen as soon as we can muster 15 legions to do the job while we continue to defend our northern borders. We need to be prepared to occupy and defend the Greek territories we take over, so we need several settlers. Our defence can be pretty thin in that area as our only threat will be from seaborne invasions, and we know how wonderful the AI is at them :rolleyes:

After we roll over Greece we have to move against whoever we have declared against who is next door to us at the time. That may not be France, of course.

If you are looking for a magic ploy, such as the one we tried in SGOTM 2 of persuading the AI to prebuild the UN for us, I don't have one (yet ;) ), and given the (lack of) success of my last one, I'm not sure I'll tell you if I do think of one :hmm:
With this variant, I would love to pull out a magic ploy to victory. :lol: :lol:

What I am looking for is something more than we will parry the Greeks for a while and harass Joan looking for a leader. In SGOTM 2, we decided that the broad outlook would be to maximize score by expanding to the domination limit as quickly as possible and to focus on building our capability to research at the 4 turn rate. While we learned this was not the only way to win :cry: as we played our turn sets, there was a basic understanding of what we were after and where we were headed. As we did not really discuss the way to win this because, at least I know for me, survival was the initial paramount concern. We have survived thus far and are moving forward now. While the worst may be to come, how are we going to mitigate that, what can we do now to prepare for it?

So, I guess the best way for me to express this is to ask more questions.
1. What conditions do we need to meet before we can begin our Golden Age and why?

2. How can we better keep up in the tech race? I assume that we need to continue expanding as quickly as we can and build libraries (once we get Lit.) in our core as soon as possible, does this take priority over military build in the short run since the AI are not coming after us too aggressively?

3. I think I understand that our current military ops will concern weakening France through pillaging there lands and engaging their troops in the hopes of generating a Great Leader. I assume we would use this for the Great Library, if it is still available. I guess the same goes for Greece. The goal being to make them essentially pushovers when we decide it is time to strike and that we have the settlers and support necessary to make the expansion a success?

4. Are we planning on a second core and do we plan to palace jump there to reduce its corruption? Perhaps we don't know this yet, but it seems that we should begin thinking about it so that we can prepare for it. What I mean is that we need to decide where the Forbidden Palace should go in our current setup and how much we want to build in Rome if we are going to abandon it?

5. I know we are going to build another ring around Rome. Does the decision on the distance have any impact on the setup of a second core should we jump the palace?

While I am sure there are many more things buzzing in my head, these are the essential elements at the moment. Thanks!! ;)

Turn log

Pre-turn wake up warrior in Veii and send him south to scout, sell WM for a few G, switch Curmai and antium to spearmen

1225BC - we have spices to the south, micromangement, sell WM for a few gold

1200BC - send pillaging force into Greece, warrior pillages Athens incense

1175BC - lose warrior in mountains to Greek regular archer

1150BC - found Pisae, start barracks
IBT spot french warriors coming south

1125BC - prepare reception for french
Buy math from Russia for WM, 160G
Trade math to america for Philosophy
Trade math to Babylon for HBR

1100BC - kill french archer near tours

1075BC - kill 2 french warriors - elite win but no leader
pillage near sparta
Russia has polytheism!
Declare war on england

1050BC - kill another french archer near tours, kill french warrior but redline our elite archer - still no leader
lose wounded warrior at sparta

1025BC - Pillage stack arrives in athens area
Found ravena near spices at RCP=6

1000BC - Iron will be connected next turn. Spices will be available in 10 turns. Pompeii's granary will arrive in 10 turns whan the chop is finished.

Rome is off the cycle because the governor selected a 2F,2$ tile not a 1F, 2S tile when it grew.

@leif: Here's my take on some of your questions (cross-posted with Adrian's turn log):

1. We really ought to be in Monarchy if at all possible. A despotic GA will not do us a lot of good. Mined BGs will not get increased shield production and roaded river tiles will not get bonus gold production. We have a lot of both.

2. I don't think we can expect to out-research the AI in this game (a) because of the Emperor tech rate (b) because the AI are all trading actively and we can't slow that down by provoking wars. Our tech focus is on the low end of the Middle Ages only - Mono, Feudalism, Invention and Chivalry get us our UUs and we should win if we can get them cranking out of a two-center development. That means we need 9 more techs in the AA and 4 in the MA. I think we have to trade for these and forget trying to build libraries. Librares will cost us a lot of shields, as we are not scientific, and I doubt if they will pay back the investment in the time left for active research. The GL would be nice, as it would save us a lot of cash which we can use for upgrades, but basically we need to grab every gold piece we can find, and trade where ever we can.

3. I think we should consider putting higher priority for a leader on building the FP in our 3 ring so that we can develop a second core when the time is ripe. The GL saves us cash, but a second core can probably create more cash.

4. I would go for a FP in our 3 ring, either hand-built or leader-built with a close build round it to get maybe 10 cities inside a 5 radius. Then look for somewhere like Paris as a Palace location and fish for a leader to build the Palace there as soon as possible.

5. The second ring should include a bunch of cities not more than 5 radius from our FP city. The AI tends to build its first ring at about 5 radius, so we should be able to redevelop, say Paris, to have a 5 ring, and then all our first core cities at radius 5 or less will be at minimum corruption. And they don't add to the corruption of the Palace core cities, so the 5-ring will also have minimum corruption.

Good work, Adrian. We just have to keep those elite wins coming and the RNG will come our way eventually. Pity about the governor. Was Rome on the deer for the last turn? At 4fpt on the growth turn it's normally no problem to get the bonus shields.

Klarius
AdrianE
Capt Buttkick UP
leif erikson on deck
AlanH

Have fun, Captain.

@leif: Here's my take on some of your questions (cross-posted with Adrian's turn log):
Thanks Alan, now I certainly understand why we need to find a Great Leader somewhere. Looking at your answers, we are certainly up against it aren't we? Maybe I should look harder for that "magic ploy"!! ;)

Good trading turns Adrian!! :goodjob: There are some techs we won't have to buy. Excellent!

Good luck Capt. Get us a Great Leader like you did last game!! :eek: :D

:lol:
I don't get GLs any more often than you do, I can assure you :sad:
However, I've founded (after reading som of Bamspeedy's posts) that GLs are easier to hit upon if you can have more elite wins after each other. So I'm going to try for that. I think our success in this game relies heavily on getting the GL cause at least one of the other teams are bound to get it.

I'll have a look and probably play it tonight. Am I right in thinking that I won't have to declare during my turns since Adrian declared on his turn 7?

@ Capt Buttkick: That's right. Declarations come at turn 7 in alternate turn sets.

I've still to be convinced that the GL will get us to victory any quicker. With the Library we'd still have to wait for two civs to get the techs we need for our UUs, and if we work hard at the trading rounds we can get those techs just as fast, it'll just cost us more cash. So it seems to me that we are better off generating the cash we need by developing two sound cores, and leaders are therefore best used to build the FP and move the Palace.

Since leaders are decided straight out of the RNG, I'm not convinced that there's any way to predict their arrival. It's best to maximise the opportunities for them to appear by developing elites and using them with care. SirPleb has an article on leader farming that works on that principle.

I've looked at the save, and I'm not sure why we traded for HBR at this stage. Both Klarius and I could have obtained it, but deliberately avoided it during our turns, and it isn't going to go away as long as there's one civ we are at peace with. Either we want horses (I think we will) or not. If we don't want them then there's no rush to get HBR anyway. If we do want them then it's much cheaper to build chariots and delay the purchase of HBR until we have a bunch. We only have one chariot right now so every horse we build now will cost us 30 shields instead of 20.

I haven't had the time to look on the save, the turn log looks good.

Alan mentioned it already, but again to make it clearer:
If you want the governor to select the iron on growth, you have to have excess food of 4 (maybe 3 works also,still didn't look it up) on this turn.
If you accidentally have already 8 in the food box either stay on the game and waste the two food, or MM so you get already enough shields by the tiles you work.
Another way is to block all stronger tiles, but I don't know, if we already are crowded enough.
Strength of a tile is the sum of shields food and commerce. So 2f 2g is stronger than 2s 1f.

:lol:
I'll have a look and probably play it tonight. Am I right in thinking that I won't have to declare during my turns since Adrian declared on his turn 7?

Yes that's how I understand the rules.
Nevertheless you can expect more wars.
It's about time that one of our enemies buys in one of the poorer nations on us.

Another point I wanted to mention:
On higher difficulty levels, it's always cheaper to buy techs than to self research, when you are behind.
The higher difficulty just makes it more expensive to research for the human, the value of the tech for the AI is the same as on chieftain.

As long as we can circumvent our haggling restriction, by buying when we just can afford it, we should stay on min research for the most expensive tech we can, especially if it's not researched at that time.

And I think we should trade as long as we can. My next goal would be to acquire poly. Our research should make it cheaper from turn to turn and we may score it in time to still sell it to somebody. After that I would go min on monarchy. We still will not have the commerce to afford a decent rate on this.

I want us to win this game (probably not the laurel), even if we shouldn't get TGL.

Edit:
I just saw Alan's post. Only one chariot :cry: .
Didn't look close enough on the turn-log. There was absolutely no need to change the production from chariot to spear right away. I hoped that AdrianE would at least let these complete.

@Leif, my answers to your question
1. Golden age as late as feasible. I agree with Alan Monarchy would be fine.
But even if this is not possible our core needs to be improved as good as possible.
We should try that every laborer can work a tile with one commerce and one shield. The very strong tiles (roaded river mBG) are not stronger in a despotic golden age than a plain roaded mined grass. Note also that mined hills can be used beneficial, but we probably don't have enough workers to work towards that.

2. Have patience with techs, we don't need to reach tech parity for quite some time.
I wouldn't start to do more than min research before we are in another government and are at war with everybody we know. We will need our money for other things than research.
This means also that we don't need libraries for quite some time. And if we should get TGL we will not need them until we get education from it.

3. Here I slightly disagree with Alan. The FP has time. TGL would save us so much money that's its worth it.
The FP can be hand-build in the first ring w/o too much problem (200s isn't that much).
If we have a leader to spare later we can reconsider. Building a second core is still quite far in the future.

My main goal for the next wars would even not be to weaken the enemies.
Just hold them of our backs, while we expand further.
If we can do some severe damage to them, good, but not at the cost of limiting expansion and improving our current core.

4. As I stated already several times, Palace jump is the way to go if you start with a tight build. So I agree with Alan.
Note also that we cannot capture cities so it doesn't matter how they are spaced now.
We should just grab a high food loacation for our new palace to quickly make new settlers.
I hope this is ok with the rules, because when we go this route we will really exploit the rank corruption bug for some time. All our cities will be rank 1 before we have any cities in our new core.
But really that's far future. Our fight on this continent will have to be fueled by our current core.
Even when the core is established, it will take some time till it's up to speed. And the majority of production will have to go in infrastructure and expansion there.

5. Are you talking of a 2nd or 3rd ring?
Next is the second ring at range 6. We are already devoted to this.
We can try to optimise a little towards the FP, but my major goal for ring 2 cities is strong locations.
I would even not try to squeeze in as many cities as possible, if I don't like the position.
Outside of ring 2, it doesn't make much difference, so landgrab and high food is the major point. Use fresh water whenever possible.

There's another point to TGL apart from saving cash from tech trading we'd get anyways.
I think, even with good tech trading, we won't get Chivalry before we're at war with everybody.
With the TGL gifting us all techs up to and including Chivalry, we could build lots of horsies (sadly) and turn off research. The AI civs on our continent won't know what hit them.

HBR is the only thing Babylon would give us for math. So I took it.

Somewhere, I also bought the WM.

I have already upgraded a chariot.

With regard to Rome, I had all the tiles except the iron and a river grassland locked up. The damn governor chose the grassland leaving me 1 shield short.

Greece is an economic basket case. They were pop rushing archers to deal with our pillagers. There capital is disconnected from their empire. They have no iron connected. They are weak for now.

I think we should look at expanding SW to get the cow at RCP6.

Long term this is what I'd like to see happen:
Force 1 of legions and archers (5+ legions) heads for Paris to wreck the French. Paris is not that far, it is likely where the french are building the great library and will be defended by spears. I like the idea of destroying their best city soon.
Force 2 of horsemen heads out clockwise along the coast to pillage English and French possesions. There is a lux along the coast, just past the desert. Either the French or English will claim it. Eventually links up with force 1.
Force 3 of legions and cats heads out counter clockwise to take out the greeks. Note that the cats can't cross mountains without a road. So the only way to get them to Athens is via the south east.

Diplomatically we may wish to renegotiate peace deals with the weaker powers to stop england from buying alliances against us. England is rich.

Scientifically, I was saving to buy poly from Russia. With poly we can trade for the other techs.

@Captain: As far as I can tell, it looks like Adrian's save is Windows-friendly, but please let me know if you need me to upload it again.

HBR is the only thing Babylon would give us for math. So I took it.

Somewhere, I also bought the WM.

I have already upgraded a chariot.

With regard to Rome, I had all the tiles except the iron and a river grassland locked up. The damn governor chose the grassland leaving me 1 shield short.

Greece is an economic basket case. They were pop rushing archers to deal with our pillagers. There capital is disconnected from their empire. They have no iron connected. They are weak for now.

I think we should look at expanding SW to get the cow at RCP6.

Long term this is what I'd like to see happen:
Force 1 of legions and archers (5+ legions) heads for Paris to wreck the French. Paris is not that far, it is likely where the french are building the great library and will be defended by spears. I like the idea of destroying their best city soon.
Force 2 of horsemen heads out clockwise along the coast to pillage English and French possesions. There is a lux along the coast, just past the desert. Either the French or English will claim it. Eventually links up with force 1.
Force 3 of legions and cats heads out counter clockwise to take out the greeks. Note that the cats can't cross mountains without a road. So the only way to get them to Athens is via the south east.

Diplomatically we may wish to renegotiate peace deals with the weaker powers to stop england from buying alliances against us. England is rich.

Scientifically, I was saving to buy poly from Russia. With poly we can trade for the other techs.

Quite nice plans, but still I'm against legion warfare just now. That's the reason I would have liked more chariots to eventually upgrade.

As you said, Greece is no problem currently. We could even continue to control them by pillaging and take them out last. Only one city is disturbing our growth and that city could be reached already by cats, if we follow this route.

You seem to have a lux addiction ;) . We don't need any more until we let our cities grow.
Luxes are crucial in a later phase, with a big empire of big cities.

BTW I now looked onto the save with dianthus' ring program.
Why did you choose this city location to grab the spices. There were other range 6 locations, which would have been immediately connected.
Connection and saving worker turns is important in the current phase of our empire building.

I don't think renegotiation of peace deals is allowed. That doesn't fit well into the variant.

Edit: Yes the cow-lake site would be nice.
I would have settled it even before investing in a lux. As allways I'm all for food.
Okay spices is also something like food :lol: .

Klarius - 10 % of our economy is 4GPT. That adds up over time. We don't want to use the slider because we have more usefull things to do with the cash.

The other cities will be at size 4/5 soon enough and that lux will help keep the slider down. That will leave more cash for purchases/upgrades. We have 15 warriors that need 40GP each = 600 gold.

I chose that location because it is on the coast (may need ships some day). It is in a "safe" location, and most importantly it secures a lux with minimal worker investment. It will take 13 worker turns to save our empire 4 to 5GPT. That is a smart investment in my book.

Note that my warfare plan will take 10 to 20 turns to implement. It will take that long to assemble/move the forces. That will give us time to expand the core.

It just occurred to me that Veii might benefit from a granary. Thoughts?

Also note that a city located 4N of Rome has 2 floodplains available to it. It is a good candidate for future expansion.

Klarius - 10 % of our economy is 4GPT. That adds up over time. We don't want to use the slider because we have more usefull things to do with the cash.

The other cities will be at size 4/5 soon enough and that lux will help keep the slider down. That will leave more cash for purchases/upgrades. We have 15 warriors that need 40GP each = 600 gold.

I chose that location because it is on the coast (may need ships some day). It is in a "safe" location, and most importantly it secures a lux with minimal worker investment. It will take 13 worker turns to save our empire 4 to 5GPT. That is a smart investment in my book.

Note that my warfare plan will take 10 to 20 turns to implement. It will take that long to assemble/move the forces. That will give us time to expand the core.

It just occurred to me that Veii might benefit from a granary. Thoughts?

Also note that a city located 4N of Rome has 2 floodplains available to it. It is a good candidate for future expansion.

Many tiles worked by our cities are still unroaded. That adds also up over time. Nevertheless you are right that the position would have allowed an easy connection of the lux. But requiring two forest roads was a little bit much.

Yes we have to be careful with our economy, I even wouldn't have bothered to connect the iron. As you rightly state we don't have the money for the upgrades. I also don't like to produce 30s legions now.

Our cities should not be allowed to grow to size 5 at this time. Antium is already hurting for food at size 4. A worker or even settler would be good soon. I also would recommend to not settle the SSW RCP 3 position. It takes away a grassland, which we need for food.

In your previous post you stated you would like to save money for poly. That's also my suggestion. Poly would probably be the last tech to buy and the last chance to broker a little. We will probably not reach the point to afford monarchy before we are at war with everybody, but some poor folks not even getting it.

To the city location. It has only one plain grass, which cannot be shared by other cities. Two locations adjacent to the horses would have been better in that respect. They would have been already connected, so connection of the lux would come 7 turns earlier. They would have added a BG to share with Pompeii. This is admittedly nitpicking in the long run, but right now I think we should really optimise our worker turns.

In principle every town can benefit from a granary, but at least in my planning Veii doesn't have much food, because the deer is used by Rome and the worker pump Pompeii.

BTW I made up my mind versus FP. Neapolis is my current favourite, starting hand-building it as soon as the message comes up.

Just a small note about my R/L schedule.
The only time I will have nearterm would be sunday evening.
After that I'm away on a business trip until the following saturday.
I may be able to check in on the forum sometimes, but will not be able to play.

@Klarius: It would be good to try to fit you in before you leave. Can Captain and leif manage to play by Sunday morning? If not how would leif feel about a swap with Klarius?

@Klarius: It would be good to try to fit you in before you leave. Can Captain and leif manage to play by Sunday morning? If not how would leif feel about a swap with Klarius?
Well, my post was intended as a small nudge to one of these solutions. :lol:

Edit: Or, if things should go fast and I would be up earlier. To swap me to sunday anyways.

It's Thursday now. If Captain and leif play fast we can just wait for you to play on Sunday. I think if we play too quickly we lose the opportunity to discuss the way forward, so I would be against squeezing a third set in before you play. However, if there are any other scheduling option, let's discuss it.

I'll play tonight and post tomorrow.
Sorry I couldn't do it earlier. Leif should still have time to look at it, discuss it and play it before sunday imhso. Leif is a fast mover ;)

@Capt
I just want to post a little bit probably unnecessary advice.
(We are still not leading in posts per turn despite my great effort :lol: )

Rome is on settler currently, should change to a 20s unit in 2 growth in 2 (9s+11s on growth), to get back on schedule.
After that you will have to produce 30s units on size 5 (horsies or legions) as long as the iron is connected. And I just hate to waste worker moves, so I would let it remain connected.

Antium is currently on only 1 food surplus. It's difficult to get enough food. -> Either worker soon to irrigate some tiles or a settler timed for the next growth.

For me it's still important to have all cities connected, so a road to the next city site (probably cow) would be high priority for me.

If we should go for a FP in Neapolis to complete in maybe 30-40 turns from now, we should already take this into consideration when settling western cities.
In the time before we relocate the palace RCP 3 or less from the FP will be rank 1 cities and get some priority.
Still go with what you consider the strongest cities nearterm.

I already noted it somewhere above, but again. I don't think the left over RCP 3 from palace sites are good just now. We are already getting overcrowded for despotism, because we lack food. It will be a different story in monarchy with irrigated grass and mined hills, but that's still some time to it.

I think we should not upgrade any warriors at this time. Maybe the chariot. Other than that we should save our money for what I think will be our last trade for some time.
After that (probably not in your turnset) we can put all money in upgrades.

Good luck for the war, I don't think you need advice for that.

Antium is currently on only 1 food surplus. It's difficult to get enough food. -> Either worker soon to irrigate some tiles or a settler timed for the next growth.

For me it's still important to have all cities connected, so a road to the next city site (probably cow) would be high priority for me.



I agree with Antium. I suggest moving a spear to cover the worker and irrigating the wheat. Settler or worker is fine too.

I disagree slightly with having all cities connected. It might be useful to have 1 city off the grid producing warriors for upgrade. A site east of the spices city at RCP=6 might be good for this. All others should be on the grid though.

The AI's have had map making for a while so watch out for invasions from the south.

I disagree slightly with having all cities connected. It might be useful to have 1 city off the grid producing warriors for upgrade. Hmm. It'll take a while to get a new city up and running. It'll need a barracks first - we don't want any regulars. And until its pop increases a bit it won't gnerate many shields. Should we disconnect a mature city to build warriors instead?

@Klarius: It would be good to try to fit you in before you leave. Can Captain and leif manage to play by Sunday morning? If not how would leif feel about a swap with Klarius?
I have no problems with swapping.
Sorry I couldn't do it earlier. Leif should still have time to look at it, discuss it and play it before sunday imhso. Leif is a fast mover ;)
Thanks Capt.! :cool: While maybe fast moving, the mind slows with age!! :cry: Thanks to Alan and Klarius, I am beginning to understand what we are trying to do. I'm glad we finally had some discussion because I was getting mighty lost. Now the problem will be putting that knowledge into action and the more I read, the better. So, a swap is not a problem for me. :D

@Alan and Adrian
I think we have quite a few warriors at this time, so it's not that urgent.

Disconnecting cities is not easy with our tight build and I think we should rather have more than less roads.
Disconnected cities should also be small (size 3 max), because of happiness.

So I agree with Adrian that some newly founded cities away from the enemies would be better for that purpose.

I think that we can wait for at least 10-20 turns before we have to decide what to do. Priority is still connected strong cities.

Edit: Cross-posted, so an address

Yes, I wasn't too happy about suggesting it, but I thought I'd throw it on the table. In rerospect, if we do need more warriors at any time, we'd probably do better to disconnect the iron for a few turns and churn them out. Once we have our road net well developed and the irrigation done that we need, a stack of three workers can disconnect and reconnect the iron in four turns. During the disconnected turns we could create a warrior every 2 turns in 5spt towns.

Preturn MM to get Rome to produce 9 shields, switch to archer. Antium: switch to worker. I'm not into the granary in Pompeii, but it's too far along to do something about imhso. Hit enter and first I get is this:
IBT: English and America have an alliance against us. Cumae Horsie --> Horsie. Aztecs finish Oracle, cascade starts...
Turn 1 - 975 B.C. MM some more around Rome... Pillage around Greece, their horses are next.
IBT: French wants to talk, but our infatuation with Joan has passed... (I still think she's a dear :love: It's a bad variant when I don't get to see Joan's happy face :lol: ) Rome Archer --> Settler. Antium Worker --> Horsie.
Turn 2 - 950 B.C. Upgrade a Chariot. 20% lux. Got to say I agree with Adrian on the lux issue, we use 7 gpt for 3 turns.
IBT: Spear on Greek horses defeat a Greek archer,1 HP lost. Pisa Arms --> Horse.
Turn 3 - 925 B.C. Pillage Greek horses.
IBT: Neapolis Horsie --> Worker.
Turn 4 - 900 B.C. MM around Rome.
IBT: A Warrior/Archer pair of the English persuasion enters from backstage (North). Rome Settler --> Horse. Heavy MM, 10% lux.
Turn 5 - 875 B.C. Move Elite Archer out of Neapoils after healing there, 2 turns too late. Starting to get a little too much to look after for me???
IBT: Loose Spear in the E to reg Greek Archer who promotes :( Veii Horse --> Horse.
Turn 6 - 850 B.C. We get our revenge, kill the Greek Archer but no promo. We still can't get Poly.
IBT: Neapolis Worker --> Horse.
Turn 7 - 825 B.C. Kill a French Vet Super-Archer loosing a Vet Archer and 2 HP of another one.
IBT: Rome Horse --> Settler.
Turn 8 - 800 B.C. Hispalis founded, starts Arms. 20% lux. Get Poly for 200 gold and WM from Cathy. Start Monarchy at max.
IBT: England buys Russia in against us, that was close. I can't remember whether I checked for poly in 825 B.C. Way too close though. A Vet Horse promotes to Elite, loosing 2 HPs. Antium Horse --> Horse. Ravenna Cat --> Cat.
Turn 9 - 775 B.C. My first elite win, no luck.
IBT: England buys Babs against us. Lol, we're at war with everyone except Germany!!! Greek lands an Archer close to Hispalis.
Turn 10 - 750 B.c. Another elite victory, no GL.

I mainly built horses when I wanted units. A few minor mistakes, although who knows, I might have been lucky with the Elite Archer had I moved it before.
We're ready to strike Chartres, seemed like a good place to start since we want to wait with the Greeks until we pack more punch.

One new city founded. Another settler is just around the corner. No hickups with MMing Rome itself, but I failed to take advantage one turn it wasn't working a mined BG. Wasted 6 shields on a horse build in another city in the process (one shield short of producing it a turn faster).

Firaxis is 241. It's way past my bedtime so I'll answer your q's tomorrow :)

Sounds like a nice set of turns!! :goodjob: Things are starting to get a little bit more intense!! :eek:

Looks like we had better get the sword sharpened, England did in our schedule and closed a lot of trading doors. Thank goodness you got Poly before the Russians declared. You kept the expansion going and got Rome back into its cycle. Good...

Looks like we will need those horsies to harrass incoming stacks of enemy units, keep them off balance and away from our production areas.

Nice going Capt, have a good weekend... :cool:

Well done Captain. Heavy duty warring and trading :thumbsup:

Klarius
AdrianE
Capt Buttkick
leif erikson UP
AlanH on deck

Good hunting leif. We need a nice leader. If you can play by Frday night I can get a round in and put Klarius back in play for Sunday. But don't rush it, if it's too tight I'll swap with Klarius. I'd forgotten I play after leif :blush:

Well done Captain. Heavy duty warring and trading :thumbsup:

Klarius
AdrianE
Capt Buttkick
leif erikson UP
AlanH on deck

Good hunting leif. We need a nice leader. If you can play by Frday night I can get a round in and put Klarius back in play for Sunday. But don't rush it, if it's too tight I'll swap with Klarius. I'd forgotten I play after leif :blush:
Oh!! :eek: Thought I was going to swap. No problem, I can play it tomorrow evening and have it up on the board for you when you get up Saturday morning. :thumbsup:

Are we going to take out some French cities? Just looked at the save and the Capt set one up. :goodjob: Also, while we are peace with the Germans, we can get Code of Laws or Map Making for Polytheism and a little bit of gold. Tried both but we haven't enough gold. Any preferences?

We are scheduled to declare war on someone on my turn 7. The Germans are way down the list, but all the others have already declared on us. My reading of the rules says that the next time we have to declare is 20 turns from when the Babs declared on us in their alliance with England (775 BC+ 20 turns-that would be your turn 9 Alan). Is this correct?

If there is anything else anyone thinks we should do, let me know and I'll do my best, and of course, I will discuss the leader situation with my RNG. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry for the confusion leif. As I said, I had forgotten that there were three of us still to play (two now) before Klarius's window on Sunday evening. Please do whatever you're most comfortable with. If you prefer to delay your turns until after Sunday that's OK too.

I thought we had to just keep on declaring every 20 turns as long as there was someone to declare against. I would have thought the only reason to start counting from the Babs declaration would be if we had run out of victims and were at peace before they met us and declared. I'll have to re-read the rules.

Knocking out a French city will slow them down a bit, so it sounds like a good idea as long as it doesn't cost us too much. Our primary goal for our units has to be active defence, and we don't want to be short of them when our enemies are multiplying and getting upset.

I just re-read the Q&A in the maintenance thread. M-B responded to civ_steve here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2019348&postcount=51). I believe his ruling simply means we don't have to declare on anyone now until 420 AD / Turn #157, when we declare on Germany if we aren't already at war with them by then. Of course, if we have eliminated everyone else before then we have to declare on Germany earlier :rolleyes:

Sorry for the confusion leif. As I said, I had forgotten that there were three of us still to play (two now) before Klarius's window on Sunday evening. Please do whatever you're most comfortable with. If you prefer to delay your turns until after Sunday that's OK too.
I was pulling your leg. Tomorrow is no problem unless we have thunderstorms and lose power or something like that. I think I have a basic handle on what we are trying ot do now. I will be on the board a couple of times and will ask any dumb questions that come to mind. ;)
I thought we had to just keep on declaring every 20 turns as long as there was someone to declare against. I would have thought the only reason to start counting from the Babs declaration would be if we had run out of victims and were at peace before they met us and declared. I'll have to re-read the rules.
I pulled this out of the maintenance thread.
If you completely destroy opponent 5 on the list then you must declare war on opponent 6 before the end of that same turn. If you are already at war with opponent 6 you ARE NOT required to declare war on opponent 7 UNTIL you have been at war with opponent 6 for 20 turns, or have completely destroyed opponent 6.
This tells me that we are not required to go to war with the Germans until 20 turns after we have been at war with the Babs? No?? Please let me know what you think, team?
Knocking out a French city will slow them down a bit, so it sounds like a good idea as long as it doesn't cost us too much. Our primary goal for our units has to be active defence, and we don't want to be short of them when our enemies are multiplying and getting upset.
There are only 5 units there iirc. Don't think I will get far beyond the first city with that, but I could try?? :lol: The funniest thing is that there is a German unit right next to the French city, our only friend left in the world.

Another quick question that I'm sure I know the answer to -NO!! But, I noticed that during the Capt's turns, Joan came to him seeking peace. If we offer her peace for a tech, she accepts, and then we declare war on her before leaving the diplo screen, is that sporting? :rolleyes: I didn't think so, but I thought I'd try. :mischief: Anything for a free tech!! :p

edit - looks like we cross posted, doing the same thing, looking it up. Guess we came to the same conclusion, we can wait.

Nice piece of war :goodjob: .

I had a quick peek at the save, before going to work ;)

Capt. I don't see you trading around poly. Didn't the Babs have anything?
I think we should trade with Germany right away. We have rich enemies, they may buy in Otto any time (if he is not at war with everybody already :lol: ).
My preference would be MM. Would be nice if, if we could reach somebody else with galleys.
The other continent (?) will not have the murderous tech pace ours has. So it's probably not urgent, but would be nice to have some trading opportunities again.

I think we should discuss FP now. It's possible to build it now. I would still say Neapolis.

One point I don't like is that there are no workers improving the inner core.
One worker is mining the iron, that's good in long term, but right now it does give only one shield more. In the same time we could have mined two reg grass for two shields more. Note we can and should use every grass in the inner core, so all should be improved.

I recommend to MM so that Pompeii completes its granary in two turns, while still on max food. Then start worker production right away, but slowly maximising food (we have way too few workers). It has to grow probably to size 5 to be most effective.
For all cities, don't work 1f tiles if it isn't absolutely necessary, because you can't find two food anymore. Rather give up a shield.

Next driver don't forget to up the lux slider before hitting enter.

And I don't think it's time to pull out the sword, if this means legions.

Edit: I'm at work now and have some time for some more unordered thoughts.

Science
Max or Min.
As I stated above, I'm for trading MM now. This leaves us with quite a bit of cash. I would consider going max on monarchy running negative gpt.
That means no upgrades. And highest priority on roads in the core. We need to up our commerce.
No mines on BG any more because we want to irrigate them anyways in monarchy.
But we want mines on plain grass for a golden age.
Only exception could be the FP location if we can get more shields for this city and maybe Pompeii to get the worker pump run faster.

Alternative is min on monarchy. Then we have enough money to upgrade all our warriors soon.
But we will not be in monarchy at that point. So the only point would be to trigger a despotic golden age, which leads to more commerce and again would make max on monarchy attractive.

General empire management
Population is power. Food is population. Use every piece of food around in despotism, even if it delays the next horsie by a turn or two.
Especially a potential FP location (Neapolis?) should have priority on mined BGs until its max potential is reached.

Warring
I still see no big point in destroying french cities. We are set up for one, so raze it, but then I would go back to active defense, harassment and maybe pillaging (of the core, not outlying cities).
Pillaging should be restricted to strategical important tiles. Don't destroy our future infrastructure just because you can.

The only city I would be interested in nearterm is Thermopylae and that's a tough nut to crack.
And it's not on a good range to a FP in Neapolis.
So a city near there has lower priority wrt to production.
It would be there for it's strategical value mainly. And for that we would need roads to there first.

In the active defense don't attack with bad chances. Rather retreat.
If we get enemies near our cities, keep the cities empty when possible and put units on mountains and hills.
The AI will mostly try to reach the empty cities instead of attacking even a warrior in a mountain. By that one can get the AI units on open ground frequently and just pick them off. But that strategy obviously needs careful scrutinising what units are around and where they can go.
Now that we don't have the ability to get many warriors in the next time, we probably should even produce some more spears :eek: for the time before our golden age.
But spears have no business in towns, unless you or the RNG messed up and a town gets attacked.
But only if we follow my proposed route to delay it till monarchy.

General strategy

Still growth and improvement of our land is my top priority. And that will not change until we completed our second ring and have every tile improved a laborer works.

Contact with the other continent (s?) would also be nice, it will probably need suicide galleys. I would maybe even get over my better self and invest a population point (or even a merged in worker :eek: ) in a pop-rushed galley or two.

The Babs had what Otto-Jerry has. And as you can see from Leif's post, no deal :(

W/r to mining the hill: I know, I kinda automined it and then forgot to go back when I remembered that that probably wasn't my best option :cry:

W/r to lux slider: I set it like that on purpose, next lux will come online intraturn.

I think I agree on contact making and the Cat build is of course up for a switch if we can get MM.

W/r to attacking the French, I did that b/c our chances for GLs were poor on defense. I wanted to go out and get some more elites and get a quick GL. In my turns, I only managed to elite wins and one unit was promoted to elite, but that'd be even poorer if I'd stayed at home with all forces...

I'm at work so sorry for editing a bit to and fro. Please reread all of this msg if you're interested :)

The Babs had what Otto-Jerry has. And as you can see from Leif's post, no deal :(

I don't see the reason for no deal.
It should have been possible to get one tech from Hammi and one from Otto.

@Leif, I also understood the rules so that we have to declare on Germans know 20 turns after the war with Babs started.
But the question will probably not arise. I can't really imagine Otto being patient for so long, unless he is already losing another war.

Edit: Oops double post deleted.

I don't see the reason for no deal.
It should have been possible to get one tech from Hammi and one from Otto.
I think probably we could have gotten a deal if bartering was allowed as I felt it was close. As it were, like Leif said, ready cash was too short, they didn't want to trade CoL or MM for Poly + gold.

@Leif, I also understood the rules so that we have to declare on Germans know 20 turns after the war with Babs started.
But the question will probably not arise. I can't really imagine Otto being patient for so long, unless he is already losing another war.
civ_steve wrote (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2019297&postcount=48)
For example:
Contact civ1 on Turn 30, Declare War
Contact civ2 on Turn 35, latest DoW date is turn 50
Contact civ3 on Turn 38, latest DoW date is turn 70
Contact civ4 on Turn 43, latest DoW date is turn 90
Contact civ5 on Turn 48, latest DoW data is turn 110
Turn 50 comes, Declare on civ2
Turn 55, civ4 Declares on You!

Do you:
a.) continue on with current status, declaring War on civ3 on Turn 70, and civ5 on Turn 110? (Most lenient and requires least amount of bookkeeping)

b.) switch civ4 and civ3, making civ3's DoW turn be 75, moving civ5's DoW date up to Turn 95? (Middle of the Road in difficulty, maintains 20 turns between DoW's, but requires moving the order around)

c.) keep current order, but move civ5 up to turn 90? (Most difficult, compresses the DoW's)

Mad-bax replied in this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=2019348&postcount=51) As for your options a-c then a applies.
Here is our situation:

Civ Contact date/turn Latest DoW date/turn
Greece 2270 BC / Turn #37 2270 BC / Turn #37 (1st contact)
France 1990 BC / Turn #44 1575 BC / Turn #57 We declared on schedule
England 1625 BC / Turn #55 1075 BC / Turn #77 We declared on schedule
America 1500 BC / Turn #60 610 BC / Turn #97 Declared on us 975 BC
Russia 1500 BC / Turn #60 210 BC / Turn #117 Declared on us 775 BC
Babylon 1450 BC / Turn #62 190 AD / Turn #137 Declared on us 750 BC
Germany 1325 BC / Turn #67 420 AD / Turn #157



I believe that means we don't have to declare on anyone until Germany's due declaration date of 420 AD unless we eliminate all the others before that. Please tell me where this reasoning is incorrect.

@AlanH (and mad-bax if he is lurking)
these rules are way too easy in the spirit of the variant. :lol:

@Capt.
Leif was saying that at the current situation we cannot afford both techs.
I also checked the single techs. Otto wants poly and some change.
But if we wouldn't have any money he would give it also straight up (it's less than 10gp he wants in addition).
He even offers CoL straight up, if you offer poly.
The only question would have been, if we do the first deal straight up, if this devalues poly so much that the second deal wouldn't have been possible.
Still we would be in no worse situation than now.

Edit:
It's done now and no big damage, but could you check an autosave, if it would have been possible. I'm just curious. :crazyeye:

I agree we should take MM while we can from Germany. Galleys are more likely to be useful to us than courthouses for a while.

I looked up the tech cost. Base value of CoL is 240. MM and poly 288.
We traded around base value up to now, when we didn't have more cash.
I think if we take MM now we could afford CoL in 1-3 turns if we stay at min research.
Question is CoL or faster monarchy.
I'm for the fast route to monarchy.

Edit:
Third option is: forfeit both and upgrade warriors.

I c, I can't say what I was messing with. I'm pretty sure I checked the tech trade with Babs and Germany when I got Poly, but again the lesson learnt is don't play at 1AM on a work night, I guess :sad:

I agree with klarius w/r to tech trading and research. Trade for MM only and hurry to Monarchy if that's possible. We won't need CoL for some time yet. I think we all agree Monarchy is extremely important though.
If we could only get TGL, I'd say this game would be practically won already. With the usual AI research, we're bound to get Chivalry from TGL and we've got both resources secured already...

Just checked the save again for questions before I begin in about 6 hours.

1. Is there a reason why the worker is mining the wheat near Antium? I thought we wanted it irrigated? If I don't hear anything, I intend to change his orders to irrigate.

2. Trades. Germany will trade us Map Making for Poly plus World Map plus 6 Gold. They will trade us COL straight up, no gold. I hear and agree with Map Making and will make the trade during pre-flight.

3. Research. After the trade for MM, we will have 94 Gold in our Treasury. At 10% research, we have 38 turns to go before Monarchy. If I make that 100%, we can have it in 16 turns but will be losing 12 GPT, in other words, we won't make it. This also leaves no room for changes in the lux slider.

I propose using 70% research rate. We will have Monarchy in 22 turns and be making 2 GPT while the lux slider is on 0. The less desirable option I see is to leave research at 10% until we make enough to buy CoL and then go to 70% for Monarchy. I prefer heading straight to Monarchy.

4. Forbidden Palace. Have we decided that the FP shold be in Neopolis? I can start it immediately as it is a couple of turns into a Horseman. The problem with Neopolis is that three of its squares are hills, nice for when we have Monarchy, but tough for now. I can use an unroaded forest and it says it will be ready in 48 turns, but that slows its pop growth. I don't think I want to use the mined BGs that Rome requires to stay on its 6 turn cycle? Other than that, there is a plains square, which will also slow its growth.

5. Once we have MM, should we begin building galleys? I think it would be nice to suicide galley over to the other continent and do some bartering. While I am sure they won't have as fast a tech pace, they should still be ahead of us and we might pick up a tech or two. That is, if we get there at all. :rolleyes:

That is what I have picked up so far. I intend to raze the French city, trying for some promotions and a Great Leader, I hope. After that, it is active defense unless something tempting presents itself. Concentrating on settlers, workers and horsemen. Do we have a current list of prefered city locations or shall I pick them? Thanks. :cool:

1. Is there a reason why the worker is mining the wheat near Antium?Dunno! Food is power. Irrigation produces more food.
2. Trades. Germany will trade us Map Making for Poly plus World Map plus 6 Gold. They will trade us COL straight up, no gold. I hear and agree with Map Making and will make the trade during pre-flight.I agree.

I propose using 70% research rate. We will have Monarchy in 22 turns and be making 2 GPT while the lux slider is on 0. The less desirable option I see is to leave research at 10% until we make enough to buy CoL and then go to 70% for Monarchy. I prefer heading straight to Monarchy.I agree. By the time we have enough cash for CoL we might not have anyone to buy it from. Let's assume we're on our own for critical research, at least until we make contact with the other continent.

4. Forbidden Palace. Have we decided that the FP shold be in Neopolis? I can start it immediately as it is a couple of turns into a Horseman. The problem with Neopolis is that three of its squares are hills, nice for when we have Monarchy, but tough for now. I can use an unroaded forest and it says it will be ready in 48 turns, but that slows its pop growth. I don't think I want to use the mined BGs that Rome requires to stay on its 6 turn cycle? Other than that, there is a plains square, which will also slow its growth.Are you sure there aren't any spare mined BGs near Rome? There was at least one more than Rome needed last time I looked.

5. Once we have MM, should we begin building galleys? I think it would be nice to suicide galley over to the other continent and do some bartering. While I am sure they won't have as fast a tech pace, they should still be ahead of us and we might pick up a tech or two. That is, if we get there at all. :rolleyes: Yes.

Do we have a current list of prefered city locations or shall I pick them?Outside the two rings we need a close packing around the future FP (5 radius or less is good), and good locations. You get to choose :D

Alan, here it is for some Saturday fun!!
Please feel free to change anything you wish.
Some highlights, there is an English Galley somewhere in the fog southwest of Lugundum so keep an eye out for mean English dudes down there. Also, I only moved 1 unit, I decided to leave the rest for you to move as you wish. There are some Greeks incoming from Thermopylae.

Pre-flight
Changed production in Neapolis from Horseman to Forbidden Palace.
MM Pisae and Neapolis to maximize shields to Neapolis. This actually had little effect because there was one shield lost to corruption in Pisae and that is the shield we lost. Now Neapolis is using a mined BG. MM Pompeii to bring in Granary in 2 turns.
Klarius reminded me to change the lux slider but the Capt said that the road to the spices would be completed during the inter-turn. The Capt is correct so I decide not to change the slider.
I visit the Germans and ask them what I must trade for Map Making. They require Polytheism, World Map and 6 Gold. I pay it and acquire MM.
I interrupt the worker on the wheat near Antium and change his task from mine to irrigate.
Change production in Ravenna from Catapult to Galley.
Change the research slider to 70%, Monarchy in 22 turns.
I hope that is everything. Press return.

IBT
The English have requested an audience. They offer peace in return for Polytheism. I click counteroffer and find that they have CoL and Construction. I fear that I have to tell her to go take a hike.
Our stack of troops near Thermopylae is surrounded by several archers. More English troops appear out of the north area.
Rome settler – horseman.
The lux hooked up and there were no revolts, relief!

Turn 91 – 730 BC
Settler NW, N and NW.
Wake warrior in Antium and move W, NW and W, moving to join the settler.
Now to Chatres. Wake the stack of troops near Chatres. Attack with vet horseman first to weaken the French spear and have a chance to retreat should it go badly.
First Vet Horseman versus Reg Spear – Horseman dies, no damage to spear.
Second vet Horseman vs. Reg Spear – Reg Spear dies, no damage, no promotion.
Wake Elite Horseman and move W and attack Reg Spear – Spear dies, Horseman loses 3 HP and no GL. Chatres auto-razes.
The Archers and Horseman move back towards our borders.
Fortify Roman troops near Thermopylae on mountain, daring the Greek troops to attack.

IBT
The Americans have requested an audience. They want peace for 40 Gold. I check them out and they have CoL. Then I tell them Nuts!
All the Greek troops head into Thermopylae.
Pompeii Granary – Worker.
Pisae Horseman – Horseman.
We are informed that the English city of London has completed The Pyramids. Now for the Wonder Cascade.
Russian – The Great Library and The Great Lighthouse. :hmm:

Turn 92 – 710 BC
Cover settler with a warrior.
Move stack of 3 Archers and a Spear near Thermopylae NE.

IBT
Reg English Archer attacks a Vet Horseman and dies while inflicting 2 HP loss.
3 Greek Archers move out of Thermopylae towards us.
Veii Horseman – Worker.
Cumae Horseman – Horseman.
We are notified that the French are building The Great Library.

Turn 93 – 690 BC
Awaken and move a warrior and an Archer onto hills near Pisae in an attempt to force 2 English Warriors out into the open.
Move stack of Archers and Spear near Thermopylae NE.
Workers road interior of our empire.
MM Rome


IBT
Englsh Warriors move into kill zone.
Greek Archers attack mountain near Thermopylae.
Greek Reg Archer vs. Vet Warrior – Archer dies and warrior redlined.
Greek Reg Archer vs. Vet Horseman – Horseman retreats after inflicting 1 HP to Archer.
Greek Reg Archer vs redlined vet warrior, warrior dies, Archer promotes to vet.
Greek reg Archer vs redlined Vet Horse, Horse dies, Archer loses 1 HP.
Rome Horseman – Settler.

Turn 94 – 670 BC
MM Rome and Veii.
Awaken Spear in Antium and move to mountain with vet warrior.
Move stack of Archers and Spear to Iron Hill south of Sparta. The reason is so that the archers can heal and the stack can go into Greek territory again to pillage as Greece is producing many archers.
Vet Horseman attacks Greek Warrior (2/3) and is defeated inflicting one damage, Greek Warrior promotes.
Vet Horseman attacks Greek Warrior (2/4) and defeats him, losing 1 HP.
Settler founds the town of Viroconium – Barracks.
NE of Viroconium, Vat Archer attacks Reg English Warrior – kills him losing 2 HP and no promotion. Vet Horse attacks Reg English Warrior – kills him while redlining and no promotion.
Elite Archer attacks Reg English Warrior – kills him without loss, no promotion.

IBT
Greek Vet Archer attacks Vet Horseman on mountain and is defeated. Our Horse lost 2 Hp and promotes to Elite.
Veii Worker – Horseman.
We are informed that the Greeks are building The Great Library.

Turn 95 – 650 BC
Begin moving a pair of workers towards Neapolis to mine hills for FP build as Monarchy is 15 turns away.
Fortify all wounded units to heal.
Move a horse E to help with archers moving in from Greece, another stack is forming near Thermopylae.
The Germans have CoL and Construction now, but we have only 88 Gold as we push for Monarchy.

IBT
4 Greek Archers begin to move west towards us.
French units can be seen by our scouts moving our way.
Antium Horse – Horse.
Pompeii Worker – Worker.

Turn 96 – 630 BC
Workers build roads.
Move horse E to prepare for Greek visit.
MM Rome and Veii.
Move units to prep for French visit.

IBT
4 Greek Archers move west towards us, most are on mountains.
2 French Archers move into our defensive area on hills.
Rome settler – horse.
We are informed that Greece is building The Great Library.

Turn 97 – 610 BC
MM Rome and Veii.
Settler NW, W and W.
Consult combat calc on several combats.
Elite Archer attacks French Reg Archer – defeats him, losing 1 HP, no promotion.
I try to show great restraint and let the enemy come to me, but it is hard!!
Vet Horseman in Antium attacks a Reg Archer – defeats him losing 1 HP, no promotion.
Vet Horseman attacks Reg Greek Archer – defeats him losing 1 HP, no promotion.
Elite Horseman attacks Reg Greek Archer – defeats him losing 2 HP and no GL.

IBT
French Reg Archer defeats our Elite Archer (4/5) but is redlined north of Viroconium. :cry:
Greek Archer defeats our Horseman (3/4), no loss and promotes, east of Antium.
Greek Archer attacks our Archer near Sparta and loses, we lose 1 HP.
Moving the stack of units near Sparta has drawn Greek Archers away from Thermopylae towards Sparta.
Cumae Horseman – Worker.

Turn 98 – 590 BC
Vet Horseman attacks Vet Greek Archer near Antium – defeats him losing 2 HP and promotes to elite.
Vet Archer attacks Reg redlined French Archer (wish I had an elite around) – defeats him without loss, no promotion.
Move some troop units around to prepare for more French units.
Workers road interior.
Settler SW and W.
Worker chops game forest near Virocnium.
Worker irrigates flood plain near Viroconium.

IBT
Hispalis Barracks – Worker.
We are informed that the Germans are building The Great Wall.


Turn 99 – 570 BC
MM Rome . Veii will grow in 1 turn without the game, so I assign the game to Pompeii, which will now also grow in 1 turn.
Settler founds the town of Lugdunm – Barracks.
Move stack back into Greek territory near Sparta, all units healed and ready to pillage, but no new roads have been built. Perhaps some Greek units will be drawn away from our territory and towards the threat we pose.
Elite Horseman attacks a Reg French Archer – no loss, no GL.

IBT
I guessed wrong, 4 or 5 Greek Archers are headed from Thermopylae towards our border.
An English Galley is in the fog SW of Lugundum, watch for units it may carry.
Rome Horseman – Settler.
Veii Horseman – Worker.
Cumae Worker – Horseman.
Pompeii Worker – Worker.
Pisae Horseman – Horseman.
We are informed that the French City of Paris has completed The Great Library, so much for that idea!! :cry:
The English are building The Colossus and The Great Lighthouse.
The Germans are building The Great Wall and The Colossus.
We are informed that the Germans have build the Great Wall in Berlin.

Turn 100 – 550 BC
MM Rome, Veii, Pompeii and Cumae. It is getting complicated, one change means 4 or 5 changes.
There are 4 Greek Archers headed for Antium and Cumae. I have decided to leave the forces as they are so that Alan can move them to suit his own style for combat.

After Action Report
Alan, I have left all combat forces unmoved, except an Elite Horseman, for you to use as you wish. Our military forces, according to our Military Advisor, are strong compared to all our rivals. I have upgraded no military units during my turns. I have also ignored the building of catapults and focused on horseman, workers and settlers.

Neapolis is working on The Forbidden Palace, 30 more turns. We added 2 cities and a handful of workers. I have started the workers on mining the hills around Neapolis to get the shields gong for the FP build. There are several more workers due in the next 3 to 4 turns. Rome is on its schedule, I think it is in its second turn building a settler. The addition of the spices sure did help in keeping cities happy!! (Thanks Adrian) :goodjob:

We are 10 turns from Monarchy and, while the status box shows us at –2GPT, we have not lost that much during my 10 turns. I started out at 94, after the trade for MM, and we are now at 82. Of course, it fluctuates with the changes in pop as workers and settlers are produced and we MM.

The Germans are still at peace with us and have CoL and Construction, but I was unable to make a trade with less than 100 Gold.

Good Luck Alan!! There is plenty of hunting for you to do!! :rockon: Hope your RNG treats you better than mine did?? :rolleyes:

<< The Save >> (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Xteam_SG003_BC0550_01.SAV)
edit - spelling and grammar!! :lol:

Thank leif. Good turns :goodjob: I've got it and will have a good look around later. I hope to play tonight, post in the morning. If I can't I'll skip so that klarius can get a set in before leaving one way or another.

The roster:

Klarius on deck
AdrianE
Capt Buttkick
leif erikson
AlanH UP

Thank leif. Good turns :goodjob: I've got it and will have a good look around later. I hope to play tonight, post in the morning.
I will check back in 2 to 3 hours in case you have any questions about any of my dubious moves! :lol: Oh yes, for the record, the cow in the south, for some reason, ended up mined. It wasn't my doing, but I did miss it until it was completed. I decided not to change it as there were more important tasks at the time. I did catch the northern wheat and changed it, can't be perfect... :crazyeye:

I woke up this morning thinking that, although I hate to build spears, it might be useful to build 2 more and place them on the mountains near Thermopylae. The Greeks won't touch them and it may help us to force more Greek units out into the open for our horsemen. Having a mountain adjacent to a city is a bit of a pain as the Greek Archers will go for warriors or horses to get near the city, but avoid the spears. Just a thought from playing last night that took a while to come to the surface. (at least I didn't forget it this time) :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

One quick question:

The Greeks have iron near Knossos in the south. They don;t have it hooked up to Athens yet, as they can't trade it, and anyway we'd be able to see the road to it. But if it's connected at Knossos they can build swords there. Do we need to do something about depriving them of that opportunity? Has anyone seen any swords from the other civs yet? America, Russia and Germany appear to have iron hooked up.

One quick question:

The Greeks have iron near Knossos in the south. They don;t have it hooked up to Athens yet, as they can't trade it, and anyway we'd be able to see the road to it. But if it's connected at Knossos they can build swords there. Do we need to do something about depriving them of that opportunity? Has anyone seen any swords from the other civs yet? America, Russia and Germany appear to have iron hooked up.
I saw no swords at all during the last 10 turns. I saw a lot of English Warriors, Greek Archers, French Archers and the start of American Archers and Bab Archers (The Babs were up around our foritied Warrior way up north). I didn't encounter any horsemen either. :hmm: The AI seems to send things piecemeal, so they have not been too difficult to parry. The AI best concentrating attackers (archers) has been Greece, but that may be because they are so close to us.

I did try to keep a sharp eye out for passing galleys, they could pose a minor problem dropping off someone where they might threaten a worker before we could get a horse there to protect them.

I did take out a few Russian and American scouts that were milling about our workers, couldn't remember if they could take workers, so I took no chances.

If we can get to resources without too many assets or risk, I would take them out! Archers on mountains are not a big deal, swords would be a little more difficult.

Good luck!! :thumbsup:

@leif: Did you use horses to attack archers in mountains? I was using the online combat calculator and concluding I was better off letting them attack my horses if they were 3 HP archers, but I did lose a couple. How was it for you? For example, right now we have a Greek archer on a mountain and we could either attack or defend - what was your policy? Or did you play it by ear? I guess I'm trying to assess the value of the combat calculator in helping these decisions, as each unit we lose is so critical.

@Alan - I attacked! I checked the combat calc and, iirc, I had about a 67% chance of winning with a Vet Horse vs. a Reg Archer. To allow them to attack was a bit closer and I was unwilling to lose a city on my flaky RNG, if you know what I mean!! :rolleyes: I probably should not have allowed them to get that close, sorry. However, I had a couple of horses driven off that mountain during my turns and was having more success going after them than defending there, just don't attack out of the city because there is a river there, bonus to the defender.

Maybe we have a different combat calculator? This one (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3combatcalc.html) gives a fortified vet horse vs. unfortified reg archer, both on a mountain, a slightly better chance of victory on defence than on attack - 71% vs 66%. Which calculator do you use?

I downloaded one from CivFanatics written by CivLackey that I can use in-game. A window is active while I am playing and I can use it without leaving the game or tabbing around. Of course my wife likes this because I am not on the internet and she can use the phone!! :lol:

Looking at my turn log, I think that in the mountains, when attacked, there were a couple of horseman retreats and a loss of one of the wounded that retreated. In attacking, I lost one horse and the other 3 were wins. I guess I had better not complain about that RNG after all!! :mischief:

What a way to handover! We're in Anarchy. Rome just rioted. There's a wounded Hoplite in our midst, a couple of Babs Bowmen on their way, a bunch of Russian Archers hiding in the mountains .... Apart from that it's been a quiet night :rolleyes:

I'll write it all up in the morning. Meanwhile, a picture paints a thousand words, and here's the save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Xteam_SG003_BC0350_01.SAV)

A Really, Really nice job Alan!! :goodjob: I am extremely happy that Klarius is up and not me!! :mischief:

@Alan - I will be very interested to read your turn log and summary. At least we have Monarchy, that is a very good thing. Did you get a galley out? :rolleyes: I'll have a look at the save, but it sounds like things are really heating up in the warfare dept. :cool:

Good luck Klarius, nothing like a little excitement before you go away!! :lol:

Yeah, there's a galley inching up the west coast out of shot. I figured the shortest distance to a possible suicide crossing is at the western end of England's territory. Oh, and you won't be surprised to know that we're at war with Germany now as well. Russia bought them in after my first turn.

At least we don't have to worry about when we have to declare war on anyone, until we meet someone friendlier. Friendly, that is, until we betray them. :p

Things don't look so bad when you see the save. Everything is progressing.
The AI units are scattered and we should be able to take them piecemeal. Now the Great Library is gone, so we will have to get some tech going.

The big concern is that the AI are now out of the Ancient Age and, I am sure, researching towards Chivalry! :eek: That is when it is going to get tough, surviving until we have knights, but I'm sure we can do it.

Again, Klarius, good luck and hope you have a kind RNG!! :rolleyes:

Turn 100 550 BC
Check diplo - no deals with Germany. Everyone up CoL. England in MA with Currency, Construction as well. Germany up Construction, Babs down Poly. Note that Chartres has been rebuilt in the NE. We have Monarchy in 10 turns.
Did a bit of MMing, redistributing tiles for increased food. Set Rome for 2fpt at the start of its settler phase.

Lots of units to move - thanks, this'll get my eye in.
We have three Greek archers threatening a 4/5 horse.
4/5 horse kills one of two 3/3 archers on open ground -> 1/5. Retreats to wheat.
5/5 horse kills 3/3 archer in mountains ->4/5. Now just one archer within range of 4/5 horse on mountain.
Move spear forward to cover 4/5 horse. Horse from Cumae to coverapproaches from Thermopylae.
In the north, move horse from Pisae to hill north of Viroconium, archer onto mountain, horse north to next hill - sees an English archer, horse from Rome towards Viroconium, horse from Viroconium towards northern front. Worker from Cumae to SW Rome to road.

OK, let's party. Next turn.

IBT
American archer from north, English warriors SE onto grassland, French archer into Valley of Death French archer appears in the NE. Greece moves a hoplite in from the east, archer fortifies on plain, archer in mountains moves west into range, another archer appears from Athens. In France our forward scout spots a Russian spear/archer pair and a Babs bowman heading our way. Excellent forward intelligence position, also denying the French iron :thumbsup:
Antium horse -> horse

Turn 101 530 BC
Workers road SW Rome, mine SE neapolis, road hill @ Neapolis.
5/5 horse kills French archer in the Valley of Death ('VoD') -> 2/5
4/4 archer kills English warrior -> 3/4
4/4 horse kills American archer -> 4/5, sees English horse on a hill 2 tiles away
4/4 archer attacks 3/3 Greek archer on mountain outside Athens, and dies. No damage.
4/4 horse kills fortified Greek archer outside Thermopylae -> 1/4
4/4 horse dies vs Greek archer on mountain east of Cumae -> 1/4
4/4 horse kills 1/4 Greek archer.
Horse moves from Antium to mountains, horse moves north through Virconium.

IBT
Germany allies with Russia. We now have total war.
English horse kills our 2/5 horse in VoD.
Several AI troops are advancing.
Achhh! Forgot to MM Rome to the deer - it's now off its cycle, with 4 food.

Turn 102 510 BC
MM first this time!
3/4 archer kills English 3/3 warrior -> 2/5
4/4 horse retreats from English archer -> 2/3
4/4 horse kills 2/3 English archer, no damage.

IBT
English horse attacks 4/4 horse on hill and dies. Promotes our horse to 2/5
Rome settler -> horse, Hispalis worker -> worker

Turn 103 490 BC
MM Rome - we get 40 shields in the next 4 turn. As we can't make anything with 10 shields I'll build a spear and a cat. Settler to Neapolis.

IBT
Babs wants to talk - would like Poly for peace. Hey we're Xenophobic, it's not in our nature, get lost!
AI advance, hoplite moves further into our territory.
Veii & Pompeii worker -> worker, Ravenna Galley -> galley, Virconium barracks -> legion.

Turn 104 470 BC
Galley heads north towards westerly bulge.
4/4 horse kills German archer on hills, promotes to 5/5
4/4 horse kills American spear -> 3/4, seeds 2 English units in north
Horse moves north to threaten German archer in Death Valley.

IBT
Lots of AI units moving towards us. Hoplite moves to hill overlooking Antium. Russian archer/settler in northern mtns, 2 x English horse - into the VoD rode the 600, galley lands English horse near Veii, which is currenly undefended.

Turn 105 450 BC
Misclick and put settler in mortal danger :eek: Reload!
Spear and cat to iron hill, Hoplite's probably prime target, Cat bombs Hoplite and misses.
4/4 horse from Cumae kills English horse at Veii -> 2/4
5/5 horse kills English horse in VoD, no damage
5/5 horse kills English horse in VoD -> 3/5

Check F4. France and Greece still have no iron or horses, England and Babs have no iron.

IBT
Hoplite moves onto the mined BG near Rome and kills my carefully constructed MM plan :(
2 Babs bowmen move into the northern canyon killing ground. Why aren't they on the mountains? :hmm:
Antium horse -> horse, Cumae riots - I moved their horse :(
Tloxcala completes Colossus.

Turn 106 430 BC
Cat bombs Hoplite to 2/3
Check the combat calculator, We have 62% prop with 4/4 horse, 73% with 5/5 horse.
5/5 horse redlines the Hoplite but dies :( - does this trigger Greek GA?
4/4 horse kills Hoplite -> 2/4
Build Lutetia on hills NW of Neapolis, start worker.
Adjust Rome to use the iron to complete a cat this turn. Move MP from Lugdonum to Veii to avoid lux tax, and move wounded horse back into Cumae to quell the riot. We are earning +5gpt. I could run a 7 gpt deficit to reduce Monarchy delay by one turn, but decide we'll need some cash if we meet new neighbours.

IBT
Babs bowmen continue down the narrow valley into range of our horses. Lots of Greek archers show up. French spear moves to hill near Rome.
Rome cat->cat, Pompeii & Hispalis worker->worker.
England are building the Great Lighthouse.

Turn 107 410 BC
2 cats bomb the French spear and miss.
2 elite horses kill the 2 Babs bowmen without damage.
4/4 horse kills Russian archer and captures settler. We disband 2 slaves :cry:
5/5 horse kills Greek archer -> 3/5
MM ,,, slider to 5.5.0 for Monarchy in 3 turns +11gpt

IBT
French spear kills a horse defending hills near Rome :eek: Spear is 2/3
Greeks advance, England is building Sun Tzu
Cumae horse -> horse
Pisae horse -> horse

Turn 108 390 BC
2 Cats bomb French spear to 1/3, 4/4 horse kills spear
MM for cat in Rome next turn, Sliders 4.5.1 for Rome pop 6

IBT
More Greeks approaching, French spear/settler heading for the old Chartres location, Russian archer seen
Rome cat -> cat

Turn 109 370 BC
4/4 horse kills Greek archer -> 3/4
4/4 horse kills Greek archer -> 3/4
horse moves onto NW mountains and sees 3 Russian archers. I decide to kill the French spear/settler pair, although this will leave a wounded horse exposed to the Russians. Kill works, 2 workers dibanded, horse promoted to 2/5, but will probably die.
Move 2 horses towards teh Russians - spot 2 English horses south of Paris, so prepare a reception committee for them in the VoD. Move cats to Cumae to welcome an approaching Hoplite.

IBT
Two Russian archers kill our horse - first one retreated him, but he retreated into
range of another :rolleyes:
Greek archer attacks our warrior, dug in all this time on the mountain NW of Thermopylae. Archer dies, no damage to our warrior.
Monarchy completes. Set for Currency, and revolt. Rome riots. Cycle through cities and hire 8 taxmen.

Turn 110 350 BC
3 cats bomb hoplite from Cumae. 2 miss, one hits. Decide not to tackle 2/3 hoplite on mountain with horses. Spear into Cumae. He should either fortify or come down onto flat ground to pillage. If the former we'll bomb him again. If the latter we'll get him on level ground with cats and horses.
5/5 horse vs English horse in V0D dies -> 1/3
4/4 horse kills English horse in V0D no damage.
5/5 horse kills 1/3 English horse in V0D, sees another English horse and 2 Babs bowmen in north.
3/4 horse kills Greek archer -> 2/4
4/5 horse dies vs Greek archer -> 2/4
3/4 horse kills 2/4 Greek archer -> 1/4

That's my ten !!!!!

After action report
Great handover situation :rolleyes: Rome is rioting, and we have a 3 turn anarchy just starting. I only managed one new town because of mismanagement errors.

A couple of AI threats, but the enemy is reasonably under control. My map pinpoints the threats I know of. The galley has been making steady progress north and is about to head west to the western coast of England to try its luck.

I don't know if this was the first hoplite victory. If so we have triggered Greece's GA.

The roster:

Klarius UP
AdrianE on deck
Capt Buttkick
leif erikson
AlanH

Good luck Klarius. Hope you can manage with the mess I've left.

Excellent report Alan.. felt like I was there.

Triggering a Greek GA now shouldn't be too big a deal as they have no infrastructure to speak of and only 1 iron, which doesn't connect to Athens.

It will be interesting to see how long it takes for the AI to get knights and then how long before we see them.

edit - Is it time to upgrade warriors yet?? :D

I started builds for legions in anticipation of the Monarchy revolt. I think we have enough infrastructure for a GA now, but klarius will no doubt have his own ideas. He can switch any of my current builds either way - a horse is the same cost as a legion. I think a dozen legions could make quite a mess of Greece. And with Monarchy and a GA we can build settlers fast to fill the gaps. Our horses seem to be able to deal effectively with the northern threats so far. The Valley of Death seems like a magnet and they drop like flies, and there's that little valley between the NE mountains they like wandering down as well. I killed two English warriors and two Babs bowmen in there.

BTW. I was starting worker actions ot get irrigation round the hills to the wheat for another city at radius 6, and to irrigate the plains for Lutetia. There are also a couple of chops going on that should feed into legion builds with a bit of MM timing.

@Alan
I downloaded the save and looked around. I don't see any big mess.
I think I can start in a couple of hours and hope to find enough time to complete my set.
If not I will post after fewer turns.
The war seems to have worked out quite nice, I see no urgent problem there. We have currently 1.5 workers per town, normally a nice ratio, but we have still many hills to mine and several trees to cut.

I'm not trying to calculate what we will have in monarchy, just assess it when we are there.
This one turn will take quite long.

I will probably enter the golden age then, to quickly get some units and some more settlers (not only from Rome).

One thing I'm not quite sure about is science. I would love to decide what to do only when we meet more folks, but that may take a long time. I will probably go for either min or low level on construction. But I have to look first how good our commerce is.
It may happen that the other nations are still quite backwards when we meet them. They were fewer and had a worse start on initial techs. So we may have to do our own research already.
It could also be the best case, we meet them soon they have what we are missing and we could trade everything for monarchy. Then any gold invested in research now would be wasted.

Cross posted with Alan as usual, so some things may sound slightly outdated.

I will probably enter the golden age then, to quickly get some units and some more settlers (not only from Rome).Sounds like we agree.

One thing I'm not quite sure about is science. I would love to decide what to do only when we meet more folks, but that may take a long time. I will probably go for either min or low level on construction. But I have to look first how good our commerce is.
It may happen that the other nations are still quite backwards when we meet them. They were fewer and had a worse start on initial techs. So we may have to do our own research already.
It could also be the best case, we meet them soon they have what we are missing and we could trade everything for monarchy. Then any gold invested in research now would be wasted.I think we need to get another city on the coast as soon as posible - near the wheat is the obvious one. Then we can build more galleys. I thought about exploring the Greek islands you can see ofshore, but it's a long way round to get there, so I figured we should try the faster potential route first.

If we manage to meet the other continent first we'll have enormous trading power - maps alone would probably be enough to pick up any extra techs they have. Though as you say, they may be backward. We should hold back on trading local contacts, as we have a bad rep at home. While the others are ignorant we could get some heavy duty gpt deals going.

:goodjob: to both our players. I've got a 2-week vacation now, but I'll stay at home for most of it (we've probably got some house building to do :)). It means I won't be as much online, however.

Shortterm: I agree heartily with a swift GA now. I think we should start building a SoD of Legions for use abroad and probably go on the offense towards the end of the GA. The French seems to be the obvious first choice.

Longterm: We should get out a few galleys to contact and trade with the other continent(s). I'd like us to get Chivalry asap. SoD of Knights sounds good, doesn't it? :cool: I really don't care how many suicide galleys this takes.

I think we need to get another city on the coast as soon as posible - near the wheat is the obvious one. Then we can build more galleys. I thought about exploring the Greek islands you can see ofshore, but it's a long way round to get there, so I figured we should try the faster potential route first.
Perhaps I am looking at the wrong wheat, but isn't that distance 9 from Rome, or are you counting from Neapolis?

I was thinking about building a city to produce galleys that would be on the bay dist=6 south of Rome but there wasn't enough food there at the time. When we have finished the switch to Monarchy, there should be enough to grow fairly quickly and there are shields there as well. The site is located S, S SW, SW and SW of Rome. In Alan's last screen shot, there is a worker standing on a grass tile that could be irrigated and across the bay is another. An idea for your consideration.


I agree with the Golden Age ideas. It would be nice to have a laregr income as well. On science, I am torn because I do not wish to count on getting suicide galleys to a place that I don't know the location of nor how long, in turns, it will take. I think we will need about 600 or 700 Gold to upgrade warriors and that is a priority. Getting to Chivalry is, perhaps, a higher priority. Perhaps a moderate science rate, but then we may still need gold for bartering for techs should we find the other continent. No easy answer here, good luck Klarius! :king:

edit - Have a good vacation Capt. Beware the thumbs when using the :hammer: !! Could cause :eek: !! :lol:

Perhaps I am looking at the wrong wheat, but isn't that distance 9 from Rome, or are you counting from Neapolis? correct on all counts!
I was thinking about building a city to produce galleys that would be on the bay dist=6 south of Rome but there wasn't enough food there at the time. When we have finished the switch to Monarchy, there should be enough to grow fairly quickly and there are shields there as well. The site is located S, S SW, SW and SW of Rome. In Alan's last screen shot, there is a worker standing on a grass tile that could be irrigated and across the bay is another. An idea for your consideration.I deliberately didn't road the tile on radius 3 south of Rome, on the coast, as I thought it would be a city site eventually.

I agree with the Golden Age ideas. It would be nice to have a laregr income as well. On science, I am torn because I do not wish to count on getting suicide galleys to a place that I don't know the location of nor how long, in turns, it will take. I think we will need about 600 or 700 Gold to upgrade warriors and that is a priority. Getting to Chivalry is, perhaps, a higher priority. Perhaps a moderate science rate, but then we may still need gold for bartering for techs should we find the other continent. No easy answer here, good luck Klarius! :king:I think a GA plus Monarchy will generate a fair bit of cash. I suspect a warrior upgrade is 40 gp, and we have 13 if I recall correctly, so we need about 500 for those upgrades. As I said, I think we might grab techs and cash for maps when we reach the other continent, but that might take a while as we have to build the galleys, get them to crossing points and then sink 50% of them.

Suppose we reach the new world, and they are backward as we suspect. Our enemies have several techs we need right now and may have more by the time we contact the new world. So here's a thought to chew on. We could give our new friends contact with our enemies, and let them trade maps, contacts, whatever, for our enemies' techs. Then we could use our gold to buy them.

Well, nice discussions going on, but a lot is already resolved.
We have a golden age.
We don't need a lot galleys nearterm, because we know everybody and have a nearly complete worldmap.
I settled two cities, one settler could settle at the wheat shortly. Another settler comes next turn.
We have a FP so palace distance isn't that important anymore.
I did still not go out for a big war, but we have the units for it if we think it's time.


Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Xteam_SG003_BC0150_01.SAV)

And the turnlog.
Preturn
Change research to construction @ one scientist. Move a few units to block mountains around Hoplite.

Interturn
Hoplite moves to the open. A couple of russian archers come into sight. Some more moves.

Turn 1
Kill russian spear.
Cats redline Hoplite. Vet Horse takes him out. Some more shuffling around. Another upgrade of a warrior.

Interturn
Archers an horses from several enemies move.
Joan starts building Sun Tzu.

Turn 2
Shuffling units. Galley reaches position I want to start suicide run.
Kill two russian archers. Move Legions.

IT
We are a monarchy. Germans are building Hanging Gardens. Some more archers and horses arrive. Our northern elite warrior is killed by a bab sword.

Turn 3
Kill an archer with a legion (golden age, didn't want to redo the MM two times)
The big MM round begins. I don't know what to do with all the shields ;).
We need units now, but there will be quite a bit waste in the next few turns. I give up the optimisation after about half an hour shuffling around.

I go to 10 % science.
If necessary we can speed up to get construction in 6 or in 12 with still 40gpt left. But our galley has a chance to reach a new shore next turn, if it survives.

We are generally a bit low on military units for MP. I probably will have to give up my plans for Thermopylae and get some units back in the core.

A lot more fighting. Loose a vet archer. Some bab bowmen are in nasty positions so I don't attack.

IT:
Some units attack. No losses on our side, but some units rest in vulnerable spaces. Galley does not sink.

Turn 4:
Move galley first. We are in coastal waters with a grey border in sight.
Cat bombard of Thermopylae with no succeses. Kill one archer near there.
Kill some more archers. Shuffle units. Probably I cannot keep lux 0 for much longer.

IT:
No attacks. Some more units coming our way.

Turn 5:
Contact with India. Trading time. They are a bit backwards as expected.
In the course of the following trades, I conatct everyone.
Sequence is Aztecs, Iroquois, Japanese.
We get all World maps CoL, Republic and all cash. We still have some techs, but they don't have any gpt to give. India is now at parity with us the others miss a tech or two.
I don't think that we want to trade contacts, so that they can buy techs we could buy from them, just now. So we have to research ourselves and maybe even gift techs. But that's not necessary just now.

I still leave research down, even though we could afford it now. At least construction should come quite fast from them. With a little bit luck also currency.

Let's now make war not peace. Two cats a legion and an archer kill the two hoplites in Thermopylae. City autorazed.
A few assorted archers die, no losses on our side. Still a little bit tricky on our northern front.
I upgraded six warriors.

IT:
Nothing special. A few units move

Turn 6
Again killed assorted archers and horses. I don't no what's wrong with RNG. Didn't loose a unit.

IT:
Again, just a few weak units looking for suicide.
Our galley sinks, there wasn't anything new to find at the other continent.

Turn 7:

Business as usual, kill a few loose nothing.

IT: Nothing new. More legion and hosrsie fodder.

Turn 8:
Buy construction from Iroquois for monarchy. Science -> currency @ 80% in 4 turns -26 gpt (we have 310 g and nothing to upgrade).
A little warring as usual.
Found Byzantium near former Thermopylae

IT: Our last reg warrior fell to a Bab bowman. Greek land a naval invasion force of one archer.

Turn 9:
Not much to kill. Do a little pillaging in Greece, so that they don't think they can just their archers to us. Found Brundisium to the south.

IT: Nothing unusual

Turn 10:
Killed an archer or two, but nothing serious.
FP completes.


I have still some preparations outstanding for my travel tomorrow so I can't think much about strategy now. But a few points.

Towards the end of the golden age we probably run out of room.
Note: you can now have a legion and a settler within 4 turns in Rome. Other cities can also produce settlers if necessary.
So we should now really look what lands we like and whom we have to kill for that.


Up to now fighting was still very easy. I saw 1 sword total in my turns. This should change (and knights may come up soon), but still the AI usually builds to few offensive units and their tactic is lousy.

I did manage my turns w/o lux tax. As long as no city is above size 6 that's possible. On the other side we pay a lot unit support cost (but we can easily afford it).

We still have many unimproved tiles. It's even a question, if we should expand at the high rate we can now.

Well done, klarius. Safely steered us through anarchy and new world contact. The RNG was asleep when that galley went sailing, similar to when it dished out the 3 turn anarchy :D

The roster:

Klarius
AdrianE UP
Capt Buttkick On deck
leif erikson
AlanH

Have fun Adrian. Lots of toys to play with now, and no more war declarations for a few hundred years ...

For lurkers and team colleagues, here is the Roman Empire at 150 BC.

So far we can't see any inter-continental routes that will work before Navigation, but there are dark areas that could hide island-hopping routes that are safe with the Lighthouse. The Greek islands could be examples. If not, we have a few hundred years when we can monopolise and control contact between the land masses.

[EDIT] Correction: I think I see a four tile passage between sea tiles from our west coast to Azteca. Maybe we should have gone for the Lighthouse :hmm:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Xteam_SGOTM3_Voyage.jpg

@Alan,
Our suicide path is as short as the passage you shown.
@All
The English own the Lighthouse already and with all the passages available, we have no chance to block them.
The only method to avoid contact would be to raze Coventry, before they go exploring.
Two galleys with four legions could probably do it. Such an expedition could be rushed fast. But there's no guarantee that it will be in time. And it's even questionable, if we want to delay contact for long.

I thought a bit about science. I think we should ignore chivalry and go for MT directly. We should anyways not research feudalism and monotheism. These we probably can buy at some time, even from our primitive friends.
So engineering would be my proposal for the next research goal. That goal we can probably reach in or shortly after our golden age.

I think we should distribute currency on the other continent as soon as we have it. Otherwise they fall too far behind us and can not help our tech tree. Even if they should get contact they would not be able now to afford a MA tech from the civs on our continent.

I don't see much point to go after the french. They don't seem to be much of a threat. Also I would like the english land more for a second core.

I agree there's no point in trying to stop the contact now. The AI know exactly where to sail once they can do it, and the English are probably already on their way - one or two turns will do it. We might as well clean out the 30gp that's available from Aztec by selling a contact. England will then buy the other contacts from the Aztecs, maybe using techs, and we might see a tech or two become available over there. Is there a way we can engineer the contact sequence to our advantage?

Nice job Klarius!! :goodjob: It is good to see the majority of the map.

Looking it over, there does not seem to be much we can do to prevent contacts. The biggest problem with that contact is that news of our ill deeds will get spread around and affect our trading abilities, or worse, more war declarations and no trading opportunities.

The English look to be our greatest threat on our continent and we should go after them soon. While we do that with an army of horsemen, I assume, I would like to see us go after the Greeks with a catapult/legion army. The lux to the north and northeast are looking most desirable so that we can get our cities growing to 6 consistantly without lux.

I was also thinking that it might be a good idea to have any city of pop 6 produce a settler, even if we have to hold them for a while until we need them, which we will.

On future expansion, I rather like the Aztec homeland. I was wondering if it might be a good idea to begin taking out or northern rivals English, French, Babs, Russians, Germans and not investing heavily in a second core there but site cities to "see" the terrain and grab vital resources. Should we get a Great Leader that allows us to jump the palace up there for a while of productivity, then I suggest that we be prepared to jump it again to the other continent to support operations there, when we get to it. Just a thought.

I found it interesting that all the civs on the other continent are the ones in the lead in Firaxis score.

On trading, I am having a difficult time thinking (nothing new ;) ) of a way to turn the contact situation ot our advantage. Looking at the scores and tech race, I think I would sell the Aztecs contact to the Babs. They are small and relatively weak and, if they benefit from it, it won't matter that much. It will be interesting to see how long it takes for all the contacts to be traded and what techs go where. If our friends on the other continent have not gotten to the MA after a turn or two, then we should give them currency.

On research, unfortunately, none of our new friends are scientific. The contacts should free up some tech, but we should take quick advantage where we can because I'm not sure how long we can count on it. Trading contacts for alliances against is a possibility. :eek:

Heading directly for MT is an interesting and risky thought. At this point, it might be the smarter course as long as we can inflict some damage on our strongest rivals on our continent. Surely the AI will head directly for Chivalry with all the wars. Just have to hope we will be at peace long enough with our new friends to acquire it. :crazyeye:

edit - spelling and grammar changes, didn't wake enough this morning. :lol:

The English look to be our greatest threat on our continent and we should go after them soon. While we do that with an army of horsemen, I assume, I would like to see us go after the Greeks with a catapult/legion army. The lux to the north and northeast are looking most desirable so that we can get our cities growing to 6 consistantly without lux.Can cats climb mountains?

I was also thinking that it might be a good idea to have any city of pop 6 produce a settler, even if we have to hold them for a while until we need them, which we will.Not too many. They cost upkeep and are a waste of shields while they are sitting around, I'd rather have miltary units. A stock of one or two is fine, but we should target a Just In Time delivery objective.

I found it interesting that all the civs on the other continent are the ones in the lead in Firaxis score.That's the benefit of peace. As soon as an AI civ goes to war growth and development go out the window.

Another busy weekend!

I see currency is due in 2 turns. That will make markets available. We will need those.

The AI's must be getting very close to building the great library with no leader for us. It looks like we will have to self research. In my mind that makes markets a priority (+50% $ and thus research, then libraries).

The terrain south of Hispalis has not been explored. There could be some good city sites there.

Long term Rome will need some irrigated grasslands to feed the citizens who work the hills. I have seen a lot of SGs where players don't reassign tiles until very late. They give up a lot of growth.

Cats can not climb mountains as they are wheeled units. Its tough to get at Greece with them. However it appears that there is a route though hills only to get there.

It is probably time to go on the offensive. Drive North and take out Paris or deal with the Greeks? Thoughts?

Adrian

Yes, we pushed on with a couple of sessions to give klarius a chance to play before he left for the week. So we can take a more leisurely approach for a few turns now if you like.

Does a market help with science? I thought they only multiplied net cash after science and lux. My rule of thumb has always been that if you are runinng >50% science you should prioritise libraries/universities and if you are running <50% science you prioritise markets/banks. Both help, but I think the RoI is better if you go this way.

Re attacks, I feel Greece is the first target, using legions to break the hoplites, and wonder if we have enough horses to tackle France as well - they have no iron last time I looked, so no swords and no pikes right now.

Can cats climb mountains?
I'm actually pretty much with you in this. I suggested it because I read a lot of how cats save units and that is what we need now. I rarely build them myself and question their usefulness, but I am obviously not the best player around. Besides, my thought was that in order to benefit from the luxs up north, we have to build a road anyway. Building a gang of 3 workers and starting up that way, under Legion escort, would benefit us in the long run. With that road we can move some cats that way.

Re: Settlers. We are going to need some of them soon, especially if we are headed for the Greeks. We have a chance to knock out a few quickly and ought to take it, imho. The other alternative is some workers, which we can always use.

I also agree that Greece should be the first to go. I was responding to Klarius' comment that he wanted to set up a second core in English territory. I thought he meant to focus there and I didn't want to forget Greece, esp. in light of the benefits we could fairly quickly get from their resources.

If we have enough Horseman to defend in the VoD and send an expedition to France, I say let's go. The sooner we can dispose of these guys the better, before we start seeing Knights riding our way. We ought to be able to hold whatever territory we free up however as I don't think we want to see England get anymore powerful through expansion in the area we clear!! :eek:

I calculated that, with RCP Distances of 3 and 6, we could keep an average of 6 citizens on tiles per city. In light of that and the research guides (improvements) you talked about above Alan, it seems that some Libraries would be a better investment for us than Markets?

The argument for markets is complicated by their happiness capability, but until we get some more lux on line they won't have a big effect on that.

Has anyone else wondered about the score line Smackster are achieving? I can accept that teams like Oblivion who are not playing the variant will score much better, but I'm intriqued as to how Smackster are doing so well. Maybe an early leader or three?

The argument for markets is complicated by their happiness capability, but until we get some more lux on line they won't have a big effect on that.
While I think that some libraries would be a good idea as it seems we will be doing a lot of our own research, maybe. This is an interesting question as I am unsure how it is best to proceed. I am fairly sure we will need marketplaces at some point. I guess it boils down to how much maintenance we will have to pay versus the benefit we accrue.
Has anyone else wondered about the score line Smackster are achieving? I can accept that teams like Oblivion who are not playing the variant will score much better, but I'm intriqued as to how Smackster are doing so well. Maybe an early leader or three?
I am very curious how they are doing it. As we have not reached the MA's, we can even read the spoiler thread. They must be building cities like crazy!! :hmm: I am not sure that several early leaders would do it as Firaxis is based upon territory and population. :confused:

General stuff - I built at the wheat to the west, a forward military base to the north, and in the south. There is another settler in the south west. I built more cats and they really helped shred the enemy units in the open. I expanded our north western mountain wall of legions that klarius started. Some of our bigger cities got markets. I did not sell currency to the other continent. I did not trade contacts but the other continent still has not met anyone else. Oh yeah, we finally got a GL!

Preturn - a few minor tweaks
IBT - lose the spear in greek territory to an archer

130BC - kill English archer in desert with an elite unit
IBT learn currency start on Engineering

110BC - kill Greek archer with our elite archer
IBT german swords spotted coming our way

90BC - 2 elite wins, no GL, found 2 cities
IBT - spot big german SOD - 4 archers, 1 warrior, 4 swords, followed by 3 swords

70BC - prepare to great our German guests, rush a barracks at Gonzomonium

50BC - 6 elite wins, no GL - a huge battle is fought NW of Virconium in the desert. Roman artillery wounds some swords and then the legions go in. The Roman horsemen also get some Germans
Discover that Knossus has iron connected. Send legion to disconnect.

30BC - 4 more elite wins, no GL, wipe out greek archer SOD in east

10BC - 3 more elite wins, no GL, german stragglers eliminated

10AD - 2 more elite wins, no GL

30 AD - a Russian spear snuck in beside Virconium. Cats redline him. A 2HP elite legion finishes him off and Trajan arrives. Finally a great leader.

The French have already built the Great Library in 570BC. Doh! Trajan builds the Hanging Gardens in Rome. That will help with happiness. Now our cities don't need 3 garrison units!
IBT - English appear in force across the desert. American swordsmen show up.

50AD - not much

Well done Adrian, :goodjob: fighting off the hordes of uncivilized ... well, I suppose that is us!! :blush:

Sounds like a mighty busy time, and a Great Leader too! Always a day late and short of cash!

Got to go look at the save...

Good work Adrian. :thumbsup: At last, a leader! Strange that the English haven't contacted the others yet :hmm:

The roster:

Klarius
AdrianE
Capt Buttkick UP
leif erikson On deck
AlanH

Go Captain!

Strange that the English haven't contacted the others yet :hmm:
Perhaps being at war has them building ground units, although I had seen an English galley floating around earlier.

Had a look at the save and I think we need to weigh the risks versus the benefits of allowing contact. The French, English, Russians and Germans all have acquired Monotheism, Feudalism and Engineering. One of them must have happened fairly recently because the Americans and Babs are behind, the Babs aren't in the MA yet because I think they are missing Currency, iirc. One of these civs is bound to get Chivalry sometime soon. Perhaps we wait to trade contacts until that happens, unless of course it happens on its own? :cry:
We will need Feudalism to begin researching Invention, so I hope our new friends get moving!!

Things seem to be going well. I was wondering why we are building a Colosseum in Neapolis? Seems like a lot of shields and maintenance for the benefit? Other than that, the VoD is looking active and we have the Greeks in the stone age as far as infrastructure.

It is, probably, also time to consider the fate of the Greeks. I think that if we remove them, we will have to fill in the area we want quickly as, looking at the map and all the galleys, we will be fighting there again if we don't do some occupation. Where we destroyed Chatres, there is now an English, French and a German city. The AI appear to be running out of expansion room, so they will fill whatever holes we make. As I think about it, if we can keep the Greeks in such a state with minimal effort, perhaps we should move on to the more powerful civs, like the French, English, Russians and Germans first. The Greeks will be lucky to field a group of archers and are incapable of Knights without resources.

Perhaps we should start thinking about a spoiler so we can go read what others have written. I'm dying to read smacksters!!

Things seem to be going well. I was wondering why we are building a Colosseum in Neapolis? Seems like a lot of shields and maintenance for the benefit? Other than that, the VoD is looking active and we have the Greeks in the stone age as far as infrastructure.


That's not supposed to be a colosseum. Thats supposed to be a market (forum) or a library (biblotecha). Change it please.

I tried hard to put together an offensive force to start hammering. However there were always other things to do with the units (like protect our lands).

I forgot to note that I destroyed a German town near Gonzonium (thats why we have a road there. I also killed off a spear /settler pair or two.

I think that the AI's on the other continent will be researching Fuedalism and Monotheism. We will shortly have engineering. We should be able to get both techs from them (assuming no contact) in 10 turns or so.

Perhaps we should start thinking about a spoiler so we can go read what others have written. I'm dying to read smacksters!!
Quite right! AdrianE's turnlog is so low key I missed completely the fact that we actually made it to the Medieval in 130 BC. I'll try to put together a brief synopsis of our xenophobic progress to date.