Ok, I'll play soon. If mabellino posts her log before me, we'll go with her turns.

playing now! playing now!!!!!! don't skip me again!!!!!!

I have just finished my turns and I don't know what to do: I won't tell the team what I did, but, you must decide which turns you will accept: mine or mabellino's?

mabellino: you're next after me in the roster, so you could play without losing your turns, but, let's wait for the other members to say their opinion. I thought, the one who would finish his turns first, would be post the next save, that's all.

Alex, post yours... I haven't finished mine.... damned real life commitments!
I'll play tonight from your save file, assuming there are no drastic things that need discussion ;)

To the team,
I've been a bit crap playing on time recently, that's due to my gross underestimation of how long it takes to play and then post the turn log. It doesn't help that my health isn't great at the moment either, but that is being fixed as we speak (hopefully). I don't want to let you down again, so if a similar situation arises where you haven't heard from me for a while then feel free to jump in and skip me. I don't mind being skipped, what I do mind is feeling I've let you down :blush:

Sorry guys

Mab

I'll post the turns now, after uploading the save.
@mabellino: I suspected that you might be ill; get well soon. You've let no one down, don't worry! Better wait for Ivan and K-B to post their suggestions before playing your turns.


>>SAVE<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_AD0030_01.SAV)

Pre-turn
I set all former French cities to workers.
I buy 2 French workers for WM, as Ivan suggested: they go to cut the forest near Alexandreii.

IBT
Bad news: the Russians declared on us!!!
They took Paris, which we had undefended, for fear for culture flip.

170BC (1)
I take Paris back, and we own 2 Russian workes(from a settler).
I kill a Russian archer/settler outside Paris, and we own 2 more Russian workers.

IBT
Babylon starts the Hanging Gardens.
Germany starts Sun Tzu’s.

150BC (2)
Move troops forward, worker moves.

130BC (3)
Call Hamurabi and declare.

IBT
Greece wants MA against France, I say no.

110BC (4)
We kill 2 spears and a longbow(I forgot it’s name: the Babylonian UU), and Ellipi is ours, along with 4 workers(2 workers from a settler), but, no GL…

IBT
I trade TM with England.
Germany starts Sistine Chapel.
The Resistance in Ellipi ends.

90BC (5)
I drop science to 20%, Invention next turn.
Our GA ends…
I see that Germany is settling on the in-between continent(the one full of barbs).
I’ll keep the troops in Ellipi 1 turn, to heal(mostly the horses).

IBT
Aztecs begin the Hanging Gardens, as America
Germany’s settle/spear didn’t make it on the other continent: there must be a few dozens of barbs there…
Our galley was lucky enough to defeat a barb galley, and defend succefully against 2 other barb galley’s.
I choose Gunpowder as our next tech.

70BC (6)
I settle at A7(near silks), and the city’s name is Ravenna.
Move troops forward.

IBT
Our galley survives one more attack from a barb galley, although it were red-lined!

50BC (7)
I can’t resist from attacking Uruk, so I attack it and we kill 1 spear, legionary promotes to Elite, 3hp’s left.
I need 1 more turn before I attack Babylon: I don’t want to attack behind a river.

30BC (8)
I attack once more Uruk with the Elite legion(3 hp’s), we defeat the spear, but no GL…We kill one more Bowman in Uruk, legion promotes to veteran, but there’s still one(?) more bowman guarding the city.

I make Peace Treaty with Russia(I hope Ivan will forgive me!!! I know that he were planning to attack Russia, but right now we have other goals and this war were unexpected).

BTW: I sell Ferum(Iron) to Greece; Just joking!

IBT
I don’t believe it! Our galley keeps successfully defending against other barb galleys, with 1 hp!

10BC (9)
We lose 1 legion at the Babylon siege, we kill 1 spear and 1 bowman.
Unfortunately, we lose the veteran legion attacking a bowman at Uruk! He killed 2 spears and couldn’t take care of a bowman???

10AD (10)
I have the troops in position for a bigger attack against Babylon, next turn. So, I hope you don’t mind if I play 1 more turn.

IBT
Germany wants to renew our peace treaty, I accept.
I trade TM with Russia.
Babylon starts SunTzu’s and Hanging Gardens.

30AD (11)
We qonquer Babylon, but they won’t make peace treaty for Nineveh: I move the troops towards Nineveh.
I buy 2 Russian workers for 60g: Cathrin wanted only lump sum.

That’s it.

Summary:
We can take Nineveh, it won’t be that hard, and after that, make peace.
I have a worker near Ellipi: he’s going to make a colony on the incense, outside Babylon. 1-2 legionaries should be enough to defend the colony.
Let the troops to heal inside Babylon the next turn(I don’t think the city could flip back in one turn).
I have a horse outside Ravenna and a legionary(he's not on auto) is going to the other city of ours, next to Uruk.

Ivan and K-B: guide us wisely.

Decide if we’re going to trade Invention to the other civs or communications(better not for the later).

I'm sorry, if I missed something or messed something!

EDIT: Just to know: I had asked, and you told me that I should protect our workers roading that mountain near Ellipi, that's why I declared and moved a legionary to protect them(otherwise they would have been captured). I don't know how much we spoilered our reputation with not waiting before moving our units to their ground...

I killed 2 spearmen and 1 Bowman in Uruk: last time I remember, there was only 1 bowman defending the city: we can order some of the legionaries that are on their way to the front, to go and take the city: it won't be that hard! Don't worry: we have enough troops on the front to take Nineveh and defend our "new" cities, if we play clever.

EDIT 2: I think, we should go after Uruk, before making peace. I don't like to have a foreing city between our cities, and we should qonquer Uruk with 2-3 legions.
Furthermore, we could take the last Babylon cities, if we wanted to continue the war. We have 17 turns before our peace treaty with Russia ends, and we could do it.
Maybe, we could even plan to strike a few English cities, as a warm-up, before Russia!

@mabellino: I tried to "check" all the troops that are on their way to the front, so I won't leave any of them on "auto". Please select them all, just to be sure. Sorry.

Good progress K-A.

I think we should take Nineveh, and then let the legions march west nad play with the other Babylonian cities. Basically, anyone that is still defending with spears are people we should attack first, as to give our elite legions ample oppurtunities. We need a leader badly for a FP.

I agree that after Babylon, we should gather our forces a bit and take on England. They have no iron, so it should be fairly painless.

As for research, I agree with going down the bottom tier of the tech tree. The sooner we get to military tradition the better. Then things will really get blown open.

Thanks for the orders, general K-B!

We can try to finish Babylon once and for all, and then take out England, mainly for leader fishing.

Great turns Alex!
The sneaky russians also declared in my first ibt, but all that meant was a few new workers and a couple of newly promoted elites! :D
I held off declaring on the babs until my workers had finished roading (sent a few more up there) but the turn before the road would have been complete, they got auto moved (clicked the wrong button) :mad: :mad: :mad:
I also forgot to adjust the slider until there was only 1 turn left, but that last turn netted me 156gpt... not bad!
The greeks and french were still sparring, I saw a few french spear/settlers get toasted in border skirmishes.
All in all our turns played very similar but your were better thought out, in the long run I'm glad you played and posted whilst I was unavailable :goodjob:

When does our GA expire? Are we still planning max research (for a faster finish?) or do we want to make some gold to upgrade our horsies to Cavalry when we get to MT??
Have we decided on a victory condition yet? Conquest? Domination? Diplo (only joking!!!)

@mabellino: it doesn't matter anymore, because I posted my turns before you, but the Russians were indeed sneaky!

Let's see what Ivan says, and you can go ahead and play your turns: K-B already posted his orders!
btw: make sure to starve the cities we captured; make taxmen on them.
Oh, and remember to leave the units outside the cities and not inside them; culture flip is something that gets me mad!

Our GA has already expired. If I remember correctly, I had the slider set to 40%, Gupowder in 14-16 turns: that's without running a negative gpt. We should go asap for the Military Tradition and the cavalries!

Victory condition: If we had the time and we weren't playing this SGOTM, I'd "clear" our continent asap(I don't want to share any land!), regroup, and go for qonquest, but, we'll finish sooner with Domination.

I've been doing some thinking...
If we trade invention around it most likely will do us more harm than good. We have a very productive city in Rome (19 turns to build Sun Ztsu's) and a bit of a tech lead on the lower tier. Predictably most civs have gone down the theology/education route, leaving the way clear for us. My thinking is building Leo's will be a huge help to upgrade all our horsemen to shiny new cavalry. This being emporer level, the AI have a huge building advantage so we need to plan carefully to be able to build the wonders. This means delaying selling a wonder giving tech and getting a head start (ie prebuild)
I don't think we want to get tied into gpt deals with the AI, especially since the civs most able to pay up are our next targets :p
I don't usually suggest building wonders (since reading the wonder addiction article) but I think this one will be a big help...
In conclusion..... please can we build Leo's!

Victory condition: If we had the time and we weren't playing this SGOTM, I'd "clear" our continent asap(I don't want to share any land!), regroup, and go for qonquest, but, we'll finish sooner with Domination.

Uh oh! I sense a tile counting exercise coming!!! I'll get paintshop warmed up!

Getting Leo's would be fun....with it we could upgrade 50 horsies to cavs for only 2000g. If we decide to consolidate for a while before we get cavs, i suppose we could go for it. If we want to keep warring constantly, then I think we need the shields for units.

We're going to have to look at trading eventually. If we're invading the other continent, we're going to need something other than galleys. Of course, we don't have to research...we can always just pull out the pointy stick :evil:

If we have a chance for bulding Leo's, let's go for it! Leo's and Smith's are among my favorite Wonders, but, we should build it in Rome? Rome is our strongest military-producing city, that is. We should work asap ALL our CORE cities, so they're able to help more with units.

Another issue: some of our core cities should build courthouses, because they're wasting shields. I want every single shield to be useful.

Here's what I was thinking while I was playing my turns(but I was afraid to ask!):
the in-between continent is FULL of barbarian warriors and horses. AT LEAST 50 or even double(or even triple! all the place is full of barb camps every 2 tiles!) barb units are over there. I saw the German spear/settler successfully defend against 5-6 barb warriors and around 10 barb horses, before defeated. It's a SIN(don't lough!) to let all those barbs getting wasted that way... and the Germans will try again to settle the continent(they can go there easily, since their borders are not far away).

So, what I was thinking is, that, we could begin a Top Secret project with the code name "Elite"! We could get dozens of Elite units over there, constantly taking back to home land the new Elites and "supply" the other continent with "newbies" to get battlefield experience!
We would need 2-4 galleys(I recommend to send them at least 2 at a time, because there are sneaky pirate barb galleys over there!) and unload 4 units at a time and immediately bring them back, after they get their "Elite" status.

It doesn't matter that our best unit right now is the legionary! We could get dozens of Elite legionaries and have the opportunity for a few Leaders back to our continent. Even against musketmen, we could play smart and attack with the Elites, once we have "softened" the enemy units with our veterans.

I know that we're in war most of the time in our continent, but we could spare 2-4 units every now and then, transport them to the barb continent and bring them back as Elites. Military Tradition is not SO far away: Elite legionaries and cavalries are always welcome(the AI has almost always a few obsolete units fortified inside the cities). We could get Leaders this way, and we could rush the FP, rush Wonders and make cavalry armies.

Yes, I think a foray to the barbarian hinterland is in order. A really fun aspect of this game the first time around was just trying to stay alive there for one turn to build a city...then of course going and having all your gold pillaged by barabrian hordes streaming into your undefended city :lol:

All joking aside though, it might not be a bad idea to try to train our troops in this manner.

That's exactly what I were thinking, K-B. We should not qonquer the barb camps, just wait 1-2 turns until we get attacked by the barbs, and then take our units from there immediately! There are TOO MANY barbs there: no one has bothered them from the beginning of the game, that is.

We could gain much from those Elite units, and later, cavs.

EDIT: Please note that, we shoudn't sent there any spearmen, as we need Elite Offensive units. I'd suggest to send our units 4 at a time(legionaries now, knights and cavs when we get them), so they could withdstand the barb attack, and get them to our galleys the next turn. A legionary has 3 defence, and 4 of them, could withstand the barb attack(but only for 1-2 turns) and get promoted to Elite.

Just think how much our chances to get a Great Leader would improve when we'd go on attack with those Elites. We could rush the FP, Wonders, make armies...

EDIT 2: We could sign a RoP with Greece, so we could use their coast tiles and transfer our troops and get them back quickly. This way, Greece would not feel threatend with our "tresspassing" and stay quiet.

Another issue: we should start thinking of having 1 legionary in all our cities(I'm reffering specifically, to the undefended cities close to Greek borders), so they'll not make any "dreams" about attacking some time later, when they'll make peace with France. I don't remember: do we have a RoP with Greece or not? We have a RoP with America, that's for sure.

King Alex this has to be one of your best ideas yet! I bet most of the other teams will do the same, think of all those rushed wonders we'll miss out on if we don't train our troops.

Can we use a leader for Leo's then??? I know I keep harping on about it but I think it's important to get this one, we don't have much gold!

I hope, Ivan will agree with this idea. K-B, myself and you, mabellino, think it;s worth to try it.

We could rush the Wonders and get new Leaders with all those Elites, and make an Army(the Army would help greatly to get rid off our neighboors!)

EDIT: I just feel sorry for all those barbs that sacrificed themselves to that German spearman :( :rolleyes: I mean, my heart couldn't accept what was going on! I thought, I must be dreaming; so many barbs wasted! Their death was in vain! If they honor themselves by sacrificing themselves to our units, I'd make a great tombstone to honor their sacrifice, saying, "Alexander the Great will always remember your honorable death, dying while trying to protect your camps"!!!

EDIT 2: @mabellino: you really have bad intentions for our "loveling" neighboors :lol:

why stop at just 1 army? make as many as we can and take over the world!!!!
I'm really looking forward to playing my turns.... death kill destroy etc! :evil: :hammer:

@mabellino: I agree with your idea for rushing leo's workshop. That is the single most important wonder at this point in the game, imo.

@everyone: mad-bax mentioned a puzzle or something relating to the barb camps. Any ideas on that yet? I believe we can get a few armies out of a major barbarian foray. Might be the key to the game.

I know I have been out of it, but I just got a web design contract for a major organization and I have been working hard on it. The next couple weeks will be better, I promise.

Also, I notice we are second on the curve for scores. Great job everyone.

I strongly disagree to build Leo. At initial stage it gives very little and if we capture it it will be the same effect. The only exception i could consider is Copernicus and/or Newton in Rome, where it will be really beneficial.
I will look at save and will see what to do. I also think it is resanoble to discover education to stop Germans TGL. Another option is capture Berlin and play without Education/Astronomy as in SGTM2.

I am not sure that use barbarians Island for training is a good idea.
at my turns I saw how barbs kill Greek's Hoplit and capture Mycenes
several times.

I am not sure that use barbarians Island for training is a good idea.
at my turns I saw how barbs kill Greek's Hoplit and capture Mycenes
several times.
First, we won't settle that continent, just have our troops there for only a turn.
Ivan, I know what you're talking about, believe me. The barbs there could be 100 or 200!(though, they are on all over the continent and not all together in a giant SoD). They have unbelievable amount of units, and they were uniterrupted from the beginning of the game, but their units are conscript, they have only 2 hp's each: no big deal.
But, I'm sure we could withstand for a turn if we transfer there 4-6 legionaries and unload them in a spot, have the galleys on stand-by, and immediately load them again the next turn(with their Elite status!) and bring them back.

We're losing a BIG opportunity if we don't get advantage from it. We could rush several Wonders, the FP and make armies from the Leaders we'd get, while qonquering the civs on our continent.

Because we'd need 3-4 galleys and 4-6 units for this "Project", we could start to prepare slowly for this goal. It would take some time, but the possible benefits are simply HUGE.

You said, that you saw a lonely Hoplite defending against many units before dying; I saw a German spearman defending against 6 barb warriors and around 10 barb horses, before dying. With 4-8 legionaries, we could withstand AT LEAST 1 turn. Remember: the barbs are NOT in one place alltogether.

I'm voting to start planning on the "Elite" Operation. Maybe we'll be ready to do this around your turns(we need more galleys) or mine, or even earlier: I believe we can't pass this opportunity. Great Leaders can help us finish this game a lot earlier: Armies, Wonders, FP, etc...

We should ask ourselves: what do we have to lose with "training" a few Elites? What we have to gain with having enough Elites?

EDIT:@Zab: Welcome back and congratulations for the contract you got! :goodjob:
mad-bax really mentioned something about the barbs? Where? I'll have a look, if I can find anything.

I'm sorry Ivan but I also agree with Alex.... the number of elites gained will greatly increase leader production meaning that building/rushing Leo's will not be such a waste of shields. I assume we are going to keep researching as hard as we can this time around, since you mentioned the super science wonders. Does this mean we will want a peaceful period soon in order to maximise science?
It would be really helpful if we could all agree on some long term plans sooner rather than later, I am willing to repeat the MapStat adventure we had last time. (landing on the barb island will mean uncovering the map quicker too, leading to earlier use of MapStat!)

@Zab
Congratulations! :beer: and welcome back!

Ok, here is what mad-bax wrote:

Also there is a puzzle involving some non-standard Barbarian Units. The puzzle is framed in the same way as it was for the original GOTM16, but the solution is different.

I don't know what he's talking about, but I did notice some units that looked like the Zulu's UU(I don't remember what it was called: maybe I'll have a look at the saves, if it's allowed!). Solution?

EDIT: I think, I found what is strange about the barbarians in the continent! There are some barb units that look identical to the Zulu UU(Impi), and there are named after the Team Names of this SGOTM!!! If you load the latest save, you can see the "barbarians regular Tao", and "barbarians regular Akots"!!!

Let's go to beat OURSELVES there and get Elites!!! :lol:

:lol:

Ahhh yes, the impi barbarians. Scared the daylights out of me the first time I saw them. At least Mad-bax is a little less sadistic than Cracker was...he had all of them named with some...very strange names, to say the least...I really have no idea how anyone cracked the message he planted there.

Anyway, back on topic, I think that sparing a few legions for training won't slow us down much, especially if we take a break from warring. I would vote for a period of peace if we manage to get a leader in our war with the English. We could build up a bit, and prepare a future cavalry force to storm the world with.

I suppose my logical side has to agree with Ivan on not hand building Leo's. Capturing it would be great, and if we manage to get a second leader, then by all means.

I'm sorry Ivan but I also agree with Alex.... the number of elites gained will greatly increase leader production meaning that building/rushing Leo's will not be such a waste of shields. I assume we are going to keep researching as hard as we can this time around, since you mentioned the super science wonders. Does this mean we will want a peaceful period soon in order to maximise science?
It would be really helpful if we could all agree on some long term plans sooner rather than later, I am willing to repeat the MapStat adventure we had last time. (landing on the barb island will mean uncovering the map quicker too, leading to earlier use of MapStat!)

Still disagree. I understand that it is "safe" operation if we have City in front of barb Island, but I think that we should get elites natural way. We have lot of Cities to capture at our continent and this training will take lot of time.
In fact we need only one leader to build FP in Orleans (?) and that's it.
however if K-B will support this idea I can accept it.
Ivan.

Allright then, we can spare a 2-4 legionaries every couple of turns(so it won't affect our plans), and get them to train!

I also think that we should avoid building Leo's: too many shileds wasted. Probably Americans, Germans or Greeks are going to built it, and we could capture it.

@Ivan: plans? We can take out the Babylonians if we keep the war, and after a few turns, exterminate the English: England has no iron. After that, we could strike Russia(we have 17 more turns with our peace deal).

I Suppose to me it's going to come down to whther or not we have a period of peace or not. If we're going to keep warring constantly, then having our troops at home where they can be used against actual civs is preferable. If we have a consolodation period, then I suppose it wouldn't hurt to have a barbarian mission or two. It does seem the Roman thing to do.

Well, knowing Ivan, I can say that we won't have a long period of peace ever! So, that means that we abandon our "Elite" project?
We really don't need to send that many units over there, and they'll help us later on.

EDIT: Let's exterminate Babylon and England and then go for Russia/America/Germany, and last we take on Greece.

Allright then, we can spare a 2-4 legionaries every couple of turns(so it won't affect our plans), and get them to train!

I also think that we should avoid building Leo's: too many shileds wasted. Probably Americans, Germans or Greeks are going to built it, and we could capture it.

@Ivan: plans? We can take out the Babylonians if we keep the war, and after a few turns, exterminate the English: England has no iron. After that, we could strike Russia(we have 17 more turns with our peace deal).
Some critique to Alex.
You miss opportunity to trade Engineering for Theology.
I do not belive that All 6 civs got them both instanteniously.
Please do not miss opportunity to trade Invention to Theo and Education.
(NOT now, just wait when somebody will get Invention). How cheap/expensive you get peace with Russian and Germans? For free? Did we loose our reputation? Why Russian trade workers only for lump sum? (it is OK, but reputation matters). Lax should be 0% now (until ww). Ivanorium needs marketplace. Rome can build LB, they will deal with Hoplits.
I think war with English looks resonable, but Berlin is better then London, If not Moscow.

I don't think we should abandon it. I think its something we should do on the side, not as a main strategy though.

@Ivan:
1) Yes, I was thinking to trade Engeneering for Theology, but I wanted to wait a bit more. Mabellino can do the trade in the pre-turn, if it's alright, and she's going to make the second trade you mentioned too, during her turns(?).

2) I think, I wrote about the peace treaty with the Russians: I demanded to pay me all their gold(23-26g) for peace treaty. I didn't payed anything: if they wanted me to pay(!!!), you can be sure that we'd still have war with them.

3) Russian workers: to tell you the truth, I offered them World Map to see if they'd accept, but they didn't(we had sold our WM to Babylon a few turns earlier, as you had suggested and they must sold it to Russia and everybody else), so, I haggled enough to see how much gold did they wanted for their workers. I didn't tried anything else for bying the workers.

4) We hadn't a war with Germany, yet.

5) I don't know much I spoilered our reputation: we had our workers roading that mountain(to connect the gems), so, when I declared I moved 1-2 legionaries inside to protect our workers. When I had asked about this, you had suggested me to do so: they would have capture the workers, if I hadn't protected them. This means, that I declared and moved my troops inside: I know, I should have waited normally until the next turn, but I had asked before, and I'd been given "orders" to follow.
Now, how much do you think, I spoilered our reputation?

6) Lux: I somehow missed that. I wanted to make sure that no city would revolt with the war, and I left it there. Sorry.

Ivan, what do you think of building a few courthouses in our core cities(not in all cities at once); we're losing shields from the corruption and the marketplaces/libraries take longer to be built.

I wasn't sure about our science rate, but, since we have libraries, I wanted to get to the MT asap(without running a deficit).


Rome can build LB, they will deal with Hoplits.

This means, that we're preparing to take care of Greece? I assume, all those longbowmen will stay fortified inside Rome for later, and not help in the front line?

Babylon has 3 cities left: maybe it's better to take all out and crush them(continue the war). What do you think?

If England's turn comes right after Babylon is finished from the world maps(!), we should plan carefully not to send all the new units to the front: those who are already there, would go straight west and take care of the English cities there, while our newly produced units would take care of the English cities next to our core cities(after Forpost).

IMO,

1) Crush Hammurabi. Get him out of the way.

2) Send 2 legionary's, a worker, and a defensive unit to the barb island. Set up an outpost fortress there and we can use it for the rest of the game. Fortify the defensive unit and use that spot for legionary attacks. The legionary's and leaders will always have a safe place to retreat and we will always have a safe place to land. It's a little more work now but I believe it will pay off. Then we can use our galleys for transport other than sitting and waiting.

3) England is expanionistic, meaning Liz won't build as much of an army as she will settlers and spearmen. Germany on the other hand tends to have a large army. We should seriously consider Germany as our next target and save England for the following one.

4) We should start stocking Eastern cities for impending war with Greece.

@Zab: I don't think the idea for the barb island will go on. Ivan and K-B have said their opinion. Probably, we have a lot of war in our continent, that's why they hesitate.

BTW:I have a Babylon worker near Ellipi: he should make a colony on the incense. Mabellino, send there 1-2 legionaries to protect the colony.Don't leave more than one unit inside the cities. I don't remember if Babylon has horses(I didn't saw any during my turns): if they don't have, leave no units inside the cities.

EDIT:@Ivan: I hope you'll post a plan for mabellino, and what to watch for.

EDIT 2: Sorry K-B, I didn't had in mind your last post. Anyway, you and Ivan know better than the rest of us.

Good criterium of exit from war with Babs is WW. I agree, that plan with barb island interesting but "if we have time, free units, ets". Defenetly worker is too valuble to
build fortress at remote island. I will look at save again and make a plan.
Ivan

@Mabellino
At preturn, please trade Invention to Greeks for Theology+33Gpt +some gold.
Then trade Invention+Spiecies for Germans for fur. Also you may trade Spiecies to Russians for all their gold. Then keep Lux 0% and science 70-80%. With this rate we wil research GP in 6-7 turns. To have MT in resonable time (30-40 turns) we should keep this rate. University at Rome may help (prebuild?). After Peace with Babs cancel RoP with Americans, (Remove troops first) and declare war (they have no Feudalism yet). We should take their Chicago, New York, Huston and Maiami at least. English and/or French may be next. I think we may clean up our continent in 50-60 turns.
@Alex, our reputation still clean, don't worry. That mean we should hold peace Treaty with Germans and Russians 19 and 17 turns. If you trade Spieces to them it will be 20 turns.
Corthouses are effective if 40-60% shilds are lost. Also I hope we will get GL and build FP in Orleans.
@K-B what do you think about idea to sell Ferrum to English? If they have something to pay? Or for MA vs Americans? (wrong idea, we have no road yet to bypass Americans).

Good planning, Ivan.
Why we'd want to sell Ferrum to England? If we go after them(after the war with America we may go to war with them). I don't think it's worthing the cash, because they could build swordsmen and we'd need more time to qonquer them.

I also were a bit concerned about America: when we go to war, the first cities that they'll fall, are the 2 cities close to our core cities, and a few more American core cities.

EDIT: So, we're going for Peace Treaty with Babylon? At least, we should take care of that Babylon city, next to Ravenna(silk city).

EDIT 2: Ok, let's follow your plan exactly.
The reason why I insisted on taking the Babylonians out, is that, I fear a possible culture flip. Anyway, you know better.

Good planning, Ivan.
1) Why we'd want to sell Ferrum to England? If we go after them(after the war with America we may go to war with them). I don't think it's worthing the cash, because they could build swordsmen and we'd need more time to qonquer them.

2) I also were a bit concerned about America: when we go to war, the first cities that they'll fall, are the 2 cities close to our core cities, and a few more American core cities.
1) I agree that it is bad idea and put it only for discussion. The main harm, however is our reputation if we go for war. Also (check, please) our trade route with Russians and Germans may be blocked if we will go at war with americans, that means, that we can't sel spices to them before build bypass.
2) I think we can produce some MU in Rome and Kaiserium to take Huston and Miami. This two Cities as a bone in our throat. Babilon's Avangard can deal with NY and Chicago.

I'll check the save when I get home, and see if there's a second trade route for Russia/Germany. If there isn't one, mabellino could quickly build a road towards them.

Also, what do you think for my question on EDIT 2, in my previous post? We should make peace with Babylon right now?

EDIT: So, we're going for Peace Treaty with Babylon? At least, we should take care of that Babylon city, next to Ravenna(silk city).

EDIT 2: Ok, let's follow your plan exactly.
The reason why I insisted on taking the Babylonians out, is that, I fear a possible culture flip. Anyway, you know better.
1) sure, we should finish war with babs with best possible result. I think we may be at war 5-7 turns. It is difficult, however to remove them all at THIS war. So we risk flip...
2) K-B also may have his plan. I'd like to discuss.

P>S> Hope Mabellino will read this before she play.

Yes, you're right: K-B could also have his own plan.

Note: better we wait and discuss enough our plans every time; this way, we can play better and have a better position in the SGTOM. Also, if a member of the team faces a situation that is tough to handle, please, don't hesitate to stop your turn right there(save your game first!) and ask about the problem you're having.

Regards

Yes, you're right: K-B could also have his own plan.

Note: better we wait and discuss enough our plans every time; this way, we can play better and have a better position in the SGTOM. Also, if a member of the team faces a situation that is tough to handle, please, don't hesitate to stop your turn right there and ask about the problem you're having.
However, I think we should try to keep 24+48 rule.
If somebody make a break IBT and ask for delay above 48 hours it is OK

I guess I would continue the war with Babylon as long as we can maintain momentum. if the attack stalls, then it might be best to take peace for whatever they have and build back up a little.

Just so I have the idea down, when we take a foreign city that doesn't autoraze, we vacate and park troops outside in case it flips. Does this mean we take it over again until it's gone? I see the merit in this activity. :-)

1)I guess I would continue the war with Babylon as long as we can maintain momentum.
2) if the attack stalls, then it might be best to take peace for whatever they have and build back up a little.
1) yes, I think so, if mabellino "skeep" this moment, you can make treaty youself.
2) Sure, we need 2-4 turns to regroupe, but for americans 2 turns is OK

I'm here guys! Just read all of the above and don't worry I understand what we need to do and how to do it. I'll start play tonight (in around 3 hours) and if I don't manage to finish or come across an unusual situation then I'll post here.

I'd like to wipe out the Babs completely but if the war drags on I'll cut it short. The minimum I want from this war is all those lovely gems!

As for the barb farming plan, let's put it on a back burner in case we are at peace at any time in the future. I really like Zab's plan of building a fortress since we have a ton of workers (we could send a couple of slaves over and get it built quicker).

This is my got it and I'm NOT going to skip this time!!!! If it looks like a problem in real life then I'll let you all know!!!

Playing now... wish me luck! :crazyeye:

Just so I have the idea down, when we take a foreign city that doesn't autoraze, we vacate and park troops outside in case it flips. Does this mean we take it over again until it's gone? I see the merit in this activity. :-)
If the city has pop2 or more, it won't autoraze. If it has a Great Wonder at has pop1, again, it won't autoraze.

One should be careful, if parking his troops outside and see if the enemy has horses: if he has, he could reach the city with 1 move, if a horseman is just outside the city borders. Better leave just 1 unit(with good defence) to defend, if the enemy has horses.
In case the city flips back and you've made peace treaty before that has happened, you're unlucky, but you don't take the city back, if you care about your reputation(unless, the 20 turns from the peace treaty are over, and you're ready for war again!)

In case the city flips back and you've made peace treaty before that has happened, you're unlucky, but you don't take the city back, if you care about your reputation(unless, the 20 turns from the peace treaty are over, and you're ready for war again!)

Hmmm funny you should say that Alex! :cry: :eek: :mad:

I've played to 110AD and will play the rest tomorrow night.

Do you guys want the turn log to date? I have it in notepad so it's no bother!

I'm watching Big Brother tonight (surprise eviction_ so will not be playing anymore turns tonight..

Hmmm funny you should say that Alex! :cry: :eek: :mad:

Maybe, there is something you wish to tell me? ;) I won't tell anyone!

I've played to 110AD and will play the rest tomorrow night.

Do you guys want the turn log to date? I have it in notepad so it's no bother!

I'm watching Big Brother tonight (surprise eviction_ so will not be playing anymore turns tonight..
Well, if you can, post it, and edit your post later, so your log is complete.

I'm at work now so don't have the exact post....

Made peace with the Babs after grabbing Ninevah and its gems :D Resistance had almost ended in Babylon (bit slow to quench with a lone horsie) when the traitorous freaks decided they liked Hammurabi more than me! Fools! Well since we'd just made peace (and "aquired" Uruk :p ) I had to swallow my pride and vow to get it back later :evil:

That's about the only notable event so far, the military bypass road is well underway and we should be ready to declare on the Americans in 10 or so turns (think that's KB's turns??)

I'll finish my turns tonight and post the turn log properly then.

Well, I suspected that Babylon would flip back(the city's pop was high), that's why I wanted to continue the war until they were eliminated. They proved too hard to die, mabellino?

EDIT: I guess, we'll also lose again that incense colony, if we made one.

Ok I've finished my turns.. here's the turn log (caution long post!)

30AD Preturn

Trade Invention to Greeks for Theology, 33gpt +12g
Trade Invention+spices+3gpt to Germans for Furs+TM (needed the gold to sweeten the deal)
Trade Spices to Russian for WM +60gold
Trade WM to Aztecs for WM+17gold
Trade WM to Germans for WM+18gold
Trade WM to English for WM+15gold
Trade WM to Americans for WM+48gold
Trade WM to Iroquois for WM+5gold (all they had)
Trade WM to Japan for WM+22gold (all they had)

Adjust lux slider to 0% and science to 80% (GP in 6 turns +9gpt)
Treasury now at 505 gold

Make tax collector in Ivanorium (lots of unhappy citizens, now balanced). Change prod to Marketplace
We are importing silks from Greece but have a supply near Ravenna... build road to link to empire.
We have incense near Babylon, anyone object if I rush a library to get this under our control quicker?

IBT
Americans want to renew ROP... hmmm I decline since we will be declaring soon. I'll move troops out next turn.

50AD Turn 1
Move elite Legionary out of babylon incase of flip.
Send southern galley to Pisae to collect units.
Decide to build bypass road near Ninevah and chigaco, send workers there
Attack reg spear in Ninevah with vet horse, lose
Make another specialist in Babylon to starve it down
Move a few units towards the fronts
Not sure what galley near Japan is for, use it to slowly make way home while exploring
Check trades, English have Education monopoly: will not trade.
Can get Monarchy for next to nothing, decide to wait.

70AD Turn 2
Rome builds legionary, set to Horseman
Attack Ninevah, win with no casualties.
War weariness is setting in, decide to make peace with babs:
Demand Uruk and WM for peace, they wouldn't give anything else and are broke.
Send workers to connect silks city

IBT
Babylon flips! Nooooo! there was only one resistor left! :mad:

90AD Turn 3
Move lots of units into Ninevah to minimise flip chances. Going to rush library too.
Have to move units out of Babylon area, send to neutral square near Chicago
Rush lib in Ninevah, cost 316 gold but woth it IMHO!!!
Send more workers to connect luxes and bypass road to Russia

IBT
America demands we remove troops, auto moved to Iron hill near Kaiserium
Babs demand we move, auto moved to the spot I was heading for. Nice!

game saved.

110AD
Notice mabellonica doesn't have a barracks so commission one
Watch a load of workers move to their new destinations
Send reg legionary to coastal city to hitch a ride on a galley to the barb island (eventually!)

IBT
Germans are building leo's

130AD (Turn 5)
Adjust science to 50% to get GP in 1turn at +69gpt
Trade WM to Russians for WM+20gold
Trade WM to Germans for WM+8gold
Trade WM to English for WM+8gold
Trade WM to Aztecs for WM+12gold
Trade WM to India for WM+6gold (all they had)
Trade WM to Japan for WM+5gold
Move a few more units around ready to attack the Americans

IBT
Galley near barbs (redlined) is sunk by barb galley

150AD (Turn 6)
Learn Gunpowder ->Chemistry in 9 turns at -3gpt (80%) We have monopoly
We have Saltpeter near Ninevah... thank goodness we captured it!
Decide to build a couple of muskets while we still have saltpeter (I'm afraid of flips)
Flip panic over... we have 5 sources of saltpeter! Decide to build a skeleton defense of 1 musket per 2 border towns for now.
Send a couple of workers to connect the saltpeter near Rome (need to be ready for Cavs!!!)

IBT
Americans demand we remove troops (had a little misclick previous turn!)
Lose our supply of Suffientum (?) and Bombyx
Greeks reluctant to renew deal for Suff. (want coms+ferrum+condimentium)

170AD (turn 7)
Ninevah's borders expand
Zabus & Ivanorium revolt (aagh!)
Athens builds the Hanging Gardens
English are building leo's
Babs building Sun Tzu's
Germans are building Leo's

Check around but can't get anymore luxes. Adjust lux tax to 10% and science to 70%.
We have silks but they are unconnected... this is a priority
Bypass road near Ninevah nearly complete

IBT
French request audience, they want an alliance vs the Greeks +ROP. They'll add Monarchy.

190AD (Turn 8)
Build a few more roads
Order restored in Zabus and Ivanorium (Forums nearly built in both)

210AD (Turn 9)
First Musket built in Rome ->Longbowman. Send to Forpost.
More roads built. Bypass almost complete.
Galley with reg legionary heading towards Barb island (as a tester)

230AD (Turn 10)
Russians building Leo's
Change prod in Ninevah to Walls
Workers enter Germany to complete bypass

Check trades available
Greeks will offer Chivalry, Monarchy, Suffementium, WM and 5gold for GP
English will offer Education +5gold for GP
Germans will offer Chivalry, Education,WM 5gpt and 70gold
No one else has any deals worth making

Score 715 (3rd place) Japan=716 and Aztecs=748.
America in 4th with 596.

Here's the >>>SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_AD0230_01.SAV)

We've made good progress.

I suggest now that we let our legions perform mop up duty. What I mean is that I think we should take out our lesser opponents with them. I'd like to gather our legions and go to war with England, and then following that, take the legions back to Babylon and finish them off, and then maybe finish the last two French cities.

While we're doing that, I think must keep researching at our max pace to get to Military tradtion while building up a decent amount of horses. Once we hit MT, we can upgrade a bunch of cavs (20-30 at least, i think) and quickly end Greece's existence on this landmass.. Once we do that, we can take the cavs up north and wipe out Russia, America, and Germany, all while we're building up more cavs and some boats to ferry them to the other continent.

Those are my thoughts, anyway. I guess I'm just reluctant to commit our legions to a war against pikes. I'm not sure that would be the best use of them. Better to use them where they're going to be most effective.

Nice turns, mabellino.

I agree with K-B's plan, but our plan really depends on K-B and Ivan, so I won't say more! :D However, I'd like at some point to get rid of the Greeks, as I really don't like to have a constant threat behind our back: after that, we can move always ahead, towards the remaining civs and wip them out, so we won't have fear for culture flips. If needed, we could raze the big cities and replace them.

I was afraid of culture flips from Babylon, but now we've made peace with them(I'd like to leave them with only 1 city, Akkad).

Btw: a horseman takes 100g to be upgraded to cavalry(without Leo's). If we can get Chivalry(if we decide to trade, that is) and build knights, it takes only 20g to be upgraded to cavalry(if I remember correctly).

K-B, is up next.

I don't think the upgrade cost will be too much an issue. Once we get MT and turn off research, we should be able to pile up 2000-3000 gold fairly quickly, especially if we ever get a second core online.

And yes, I've got it, but I'll wait for Ivan to chime in before I play.

suggestions-recomendation.
Good progress, Mabellino.
Your typical mistake is road via mouning. This is not effective route
in terms of workerload. I think 6 workers near Besancon can do more usefull
job. (Say plant and cut forest). Road to Ravenna can go via Miami.
You may build bypass via Heidel'berg, but I think it is more effective to capture Chicago.
Currently our trade may go via Forpost-Chartress-Paris-orlean-Babilon-Ur-Coventry-Smolensk
and then Moscow and Berlin. Better to build Portus in Veii (instead of Corthouse).
At this situation we MUST stay in Peace with French an Greeks. After capture Chicago we may go to
war with French or Greeks. I think K-B may declare to Americans next turn. If I play I'd sell Ferrum to
England for Alliance vs Americans to ensure peacfull trade route. May be they even pay something. It is good to rush Biblioteca in Pompei to push Miami border.
We may buy Chivaliry from Babilonians for Theology+Gems+WM+something, I think better NOT to
distribute Invention. Also, until we have monopoly on GP we should not trade it, but do trade when
somebody else discover GP. With Chivaliry we may consider Astronomy-Navigation research route to
trade overseas.
Rome may prebuild University NOW (say Leo workshop). When we discover Chemistry we may buy
Education and swich. I think Astronomy is better then Metalurgy, but K-B may think differently.
I think Alex and Mabellino are looking for cheap popularity. We may stay with Lux 0% and Sci 80%.
Only three Cities needs specialists then.
If we get GL we may rush FP in Orleans, next GL may use for Leo Workshop or Copernicus.

Let's hope that we'll get a GL one day!!!

I just took a look at the save, and I realized that we may not even need to ever get ships better than galleys. The Great Lighthouse is in Berlin, so once we capture it, our galleys will be able to safely traverse the waters between the contients. So, we don't ever need to get Astronomy. We'll just need to build a lot of galleys.

@Ivan

I'm just wondering what makes your favor war with America over war with England? On America we're going to have to fight pikes, where as in England we'd have to fight spears. We are strong to both civs, but I'm just curious. I'll attack whoever you think is best...they're all going to die eventually anyway :evil:

1) I just took a look at the save, and I realized that we may not even need to ever get ships better than galleys. The Great Lighthouse is in Berlin, so once we capture it, our galleys will be able to safely traverse the waters between the contients. So, we don't ever need to get Astronomy. We'll just need to build a lot of galleys.

@Ivan

2) I'm just wondering what makes your favor war with America over war with England? On America we're going to have to fight pikes, where as in England we'd have to fight spears. We are strong to both civs, but I'm just curious. I'll attack whoever you think is best...they're all going to die eventually anyway :evil:
1) I am afraid that:
a) it is long time before we capture Berlin, but trade overseas is beneficial
b) barb Island cut sea east route to other continent.
We may perfom better with Navigation/Astronomy, but I agree that we may go without that. Let discover Metalurgy/MT first and see if we need Astronomy. I think, however, that university in Rome may help (not 100% sure).
2) 2 americans Cities are too close to our core, also Chicago is good strategical position. Americans got Feudalism recently and probably they had not build enough Picks. That are the resons to fight them first. England without Iron is not an opponent, however I think their fight vs Americans let us take them simpler later. England has no usefull Lux/Wonders, I think Russians and Germans might be our next target after americans.
Good luck!

OK, sounds good to me. I'll try to "convince" some American cities to join our cause.

suggestions-recomendation.
Good progress, Mabellino.
Your typical mistake is road via mouning. This is not effective route
in terms of workerload. I think 6 workers near Besancon can do more usefull
job. (Say plant and cut forest). Road to Ravenna can go via Miami.
You may build bypass via Heidel'berg, but I think it is more effective to capture Chicago.
I agree here, wasn't too sure of the best way to road so I picked the most obvious (to me at least). Perhaps you could include some general worker directions next time you post a plan. I know I don't always utilise my workers efficiently, there were at least double my usual number of workers to manage this time! It was a bit daunting!

I think Alex and Mabellino are looking for cheap popularity. We may stay with Lux 0% and Sci 80%.
Only three Cities needs specialists then.
If we get GL we may rush FP in Orleans, next GL may use for Leo Workshop or Copernicus.

Please will you explain what you mean by this??? I bumped up lux tax because several cities were about to riot and you'll notice I didn't make any entertainers where a taxman/scientist would do. (at least I think I did!)

EDIT: 300th post!!! [party] :yeah: :banana: :bounce: :clap:

I agree with Ivan. War with the Americans first before they get tough. England looks like an easy target and my first temptation is to take the easy way, but Ivan is right, they are going to remain an easy target for a long time, and France is helping in keeping them bottled up.

THE SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_AD0350_01.SAV)

Preturn- I modify a couple builds, do some MMing. Nothing drastic. I move Legions into position to attack America. I establish an embassy with the Aztecs. They are at war with the Iroquois, and they're gobbling them up. I decide to get embassies with Japan and India too.

I decide to stir up the other continent a bit. I declare war against the Aztecs, and sign India and Japan into an MA against them. That should weaken them all up a bit, and pretty much ensure that none of them will ever catch up to us in tech.

IT- zzz

T1 250

I declare war on America. I sign in the English for some iron. I move Legions into place at Chicago, Miami and Houston.

IT- America starts Sun Tzu's. Excellent. Pour all those shields into a wonder while I kill you... :evil:

T2 260

Siege of Miami-

First legions dies, promoting the spear.
Second legions kills a spear.
Third legions kills a spear.

City doesn't fall.

Siege of Houston-

Legions kills spear, earning promotion.
Legions kills spear, earning promotion.
Third legions kills warrior, torching Houston in the process.

Siege of Chicago-

Legion redlines spear before being killed
Second legions kills spear
Third legions kills spear
Elite legions kills redlined spear, but no leader. We take Chicago.

Other action-

Elite horse kills warrior near Chicago, but no leader.
Veteran legions kills warrior near Chicago.

Not much else to report.

IT- America warrior come out of Miami.

T3 270

Vet. Legion takes out spear and Miami is ours.

Nothing else of note.

IT- zzz

T4 280

I notice that England now has gunpowder. I decide to trade it to Germany for Education.

An elite legion kills a wandering American spear, no leader.

IT- zzz

T5 290

Not much of interest. Just troop positioning. I drop our research to 20%, we increase to 127gpt.

IT- We learn Chemistry. Research set to Metallurgy at 70%, 10 turns, -13gpt

T6 300

Nothing new. Move troops towards New York.

IT- I watch and cheer as a French archer kills a hoplite and takes a city on the barb hinterland.

T7 310

Siege of New York-

Vet horse manages to take an hp off a pike before retreating.
Vet legion kills reg pike.
Vet legion killed by vet pike.
Elite horse kills reg spear
Elite legions kills vet pike and we take New York.

New York has six resistors, so I'll leave it nearly empty and try to starve it down.

IT- Two American swords impale themselves on our legions

T8 320

Two elite legions kill two sowrds outside of New York, but still no leader. This is getting frustrating.

IT- A sword runs out of the darkness and dies at the feet our elite legion.
England signs France in against America.

T9 330

I gather troops. Not much else.

IT- nothing

T10

An elite legion kills a spear. No leader....

Whoah, we're at -50gpt now. A deal must have ended. I drop science to compensate.

I'll take one more turn to get us to an even year and get our next invasion started.

IT- Our furs deal expires with Germany. They want way too much for it now, so I let it expire.

T11 350

I begin our movement towards Seattle, which I believe should be our next target. After that, perhaps Boston, then Washington.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/KBSGOTMIII.JPG


Afterthoughts

We're progressing well. We should be able to handle America fairly well now. We have 6 turns until Metallurgy comes in. Overall, I think we're looking quite good. We just need to not have any major mistakes. Just play carefully.

Not Seattle! That was my home town! Oh well. Duty and honor rules.

I got the save. I am going to look around but I will not start playing for 24 hours because I want to hear opinions and such. I will post my concerns and questions here throughout the night and day.

Don't look at it like we're capturing Seattle....more like we're liberating it from a cruel and despotic leader :lol:

suggestions-recomendation.
Good progress, K-B,
@Zab,
To start war with Babs (Peace treaty expire next turn) we have to build bypass Niniveh-Chcago around Babilon's land.
I don't know, why K-B did not trade Theology for Chivalry, now this possibility has gone. OK, we'll have
MT soon. Probably we do not need University in Rome, but I think better to build Musketers there (If we build
Legion we loose too many shields).

K-B also was looking for cheap popularity. We may stay with Lux 0% and Sci 60% with zero balance.
Only three Cities needs specialists then. We may trade with Russians and Germans (Gems, Saltpeter), but I
think that we wel go for war earler then 20 turns. we may trade Games to English.

If we get GL we may rush FP in Orleans, next GL may use for Leo Workshop or Copernicus.

Nice turns K-B. It get's frustrating not to have a GL, as you said. In my turns, I also made enough attacks with Elite legions/horses, but no GL.

So I am to start war with babylon when the treaty expires, but make sure the nineveh bypass is complete first.

Now, should I make sure that Seattle is gone or should I finish of Babylon first?

I think we should continue the war with America for at least a few more cities. I don't think it's effective to keep switching our opponents around so much. And, seeing as we're tied to the war with America for like 11 more turns due to the MA with England, I suggest we keep carving up America. Once we at least have Seattle and Boston, then maybe we could consider peace, but I think we should keep going until they're down to one or two cities. Ideally I'd like them off the continent, as they have a fairly large culture.

@Ivan

I decided not to trade for chivalry because, as you said, we're fairly close to MT as it is. I think there are still oppurtunities to get it, if we want to.

Also with the lux tax, we lost our supply of furs from Germany, so I decided to keep it up. I tried lowering it to 0%, but I just didn't feel right hiring a specialist in Rome. I guess we can manage 0%, it'll just take some careful MMing of cities to make sure they're still happy.

I declare war on America.
1) I sign in the English for some iron.
I notice that England now has gunpowder. I decide to trade it to Germany for Education.
2) Our furs deal expires with Germany. They want way too much for it now, so I let it expire.

1) Did they pay you some gold?
2) Good move.
I have no doubt that we win this game, but I also want to win competition.
For progress we need as much gold as possible.
When we start war with Russians? Greek? Germans? If later then 20 turn from now
it is resanoble to trade Games/Spicies to them.

1)I think we should continue the war with America for at least a few more cities. I don't think it's effective to keep switching our opponents around so much. And, seeing as we're tied to the war with America for like 11 more turns due to the MA with England, I suggest we keep carving up America. Once we at least have Seattle and Boston, then maybe we could consider peace, but I think we should keep going until they're down to one or two cities. Ideally I'd like them off the continent, as they have a fairly large culture.

2)I decided not to trade for chivalry because, as you said, we're fairly close to MT as it is. I think there are still oppurtunities to get it, if we want to.

3) Also with the lux tax, we lost our supply of furs from Germany, so I decided to keep it up. I tried lowering it to 0%, but I just didn't feel right hiring a specialist in Rome. I guess we can manage 0%, it'll just take some careful MMing of cities to make sure they're still happy.
1) I agree with this plan, certanly we should stay at war until we have an alliance. so we defenetly might trade games with English.
Actually we need "war/trade timetabele" to gain maximum gold. Not sure, that Zab will be able to fight with both- Babs and Americans. (I woud, but...)
2) Very resonable. We will build horses and upgrade to Cavs.
3) Even if we put Governor everywhere it will be good to have lux 0%. With Mcmng even better.

Yes, I did clean the English out of all their available gold when I made the alliance.

I will fly over Atlantic all day tomorrow, hope will back at computer afternoon 10 Aug
Good luck, Zab
Ivan

Good turns K-B. Very frustrating about the lack of leaders! Grrrr!
I'm on holiday all this week :D and have actually remembered my civ disc (plus fiance's laptop= civ on the beach!)

One thing though,
@Ivan
I noticed you again used the term "cheap popularity" I think you mean happy citizens by this, if so, then remember that happy citizens are worth more scorewise than content/specialists and unhappy count for nothing. If our goal is to place high in the contest then we need to be maximising score all the time (because it's averaged). Raising the lux tax might cost gold, but with several inexperienced MMer's (myself included) then civil disorder will cost us much more. It also has the added bonus of increasing score!

@Ivan
I noticed you again used the term "cheap popularity" I think you mean happy citizens by this, if so, then remember that happy citizens are worth more scorewise than content/specialists and unhappy count for nothing. If our goal is to place high in the contest then we need to be maximising score all the time (because it's averaged). Raising the lux tax might cost gold, but with several inexperienced MMer's (myself included) then civil disorder will cost us much more. It also has the added bonus of increasing score!
Last msg from Russia:
We have to get MT ASAP and have enough gold to upgrade.
Note, we need big part of another continent for domination.
As I wrote even with Governor we get more gold with 0% Lux,
so if you can't check Cities for disorder put Governor and play.
Trade Games to English.
Regards, Ivan

Zab, any progress yet?

I am starting my turns now. I got some good insights on things and I think I am ready to go.

I will stop after the first 3 to post what I have done so far.

TURNLOG SO FAR:


Preturn 350 AD - Lots of troops and lots of undefended cities. What worries me offhand is the presence of Greek troops outside of undefended Miami. Greece is annoyed with us right now so they could fight. On a test I tried giving them Territory Map for free to see if it raises them to cautious but no deal.

We have a small pack of troops outside of Nineveh that can easily take babylon without breaking the large troop heading towards Seattle. I will wait until turn 3 before declaring war on Babs to see what is about to happen.

We have 138 gold and are working at -24 gpt. I will look for takeover cities to make taxmen in to try and balance this, as I do not want to reduce research at this point. Traded Gemma to Lizzy and got 63 gold and World Map from her. After making a few taxmen in sattelite cities we are down to -21 gpt


T1 360 AD - The Greek troops are moving past us. Down to -22gpt after a new horseman is made. Abe is moving troops to Seattle for the impending battle. One resister is quelled in Paris. Moving troops towards Seattle. Legionary on the barb island gets hit with 3 barb horseman and dies.

T2 370 AD - Lyons flips to the English. New York flips to the Americans. Since I have troops parked outside New York I just take it back. Attempting to starve them down. Moved troop stack next to Babylon. As soon as they get upset we are going to war. Took Seattle, losing 2 horseman and still no leader.

T3 380 AD - New York is taken back by Americans. Declared war on Babylon. More unhappiness abounds. More taxmen made. Ellipi flips to Babylonia, but we get their capital city. Took New York back again. Moving troops around to protect New York and Babylon for the moment.

I'm not sure of the exact situation we're in, but I'd use the troops we already have up there to combat America, and the reinforcements to take out Babylon. Thats all I can really offer right now.

@Zab: about what K-B said: gather the reinforcements for Babylon, and do not attack with only 1-2 units, because it isn't enough to take one city.

I can't tell more, because I'm not aware of the exact situation.

The main force is continuuing to America. The 6 backup units were all east and south of Babylon, too far from America to help in the near future.

EDIT: It's New York I am having problems holding. The main troop body is north of Seattle now, and New York is just now becoming stable.

The war weariness and civil disorder is getting hard to handle.

Press F1 and make sure you look inside every city we have, every turn, so you always know what's the current situation for unhappiness(and "predict" the situation for the next turn, so you adjust the city's pop, accordingly).

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_AD0440_01.SAV

I know I posted a portion earlier, but I didn't want to throw the discussion off. Here is the turnlog.



Preturn 350 AD - Lots of troops and lots of undefended cities. What worries me offhand is the presence of Greek troops outside of undefended Miami. Greece is annoyed with us right now so they could fight. On a test I tried giving them Territory Map for free to see if it raises them to cautious but no deal.

We have a small pack of troops outside of Nineveh that can easily take babylon without breaking the large troop heading towards Seattle. I will wait until turn 3 before declaring war on Babs to see what is about to happen.

We have 138 gold and are working at -24 gpt. I will look for takeover cities to make taxmen in to try and balance this, as I do not want to reduce research at this point. Traded Gemma to Lizzy and got 63 gold and World Map from her. After making a few taxmen in sattelite cities we are down to -21 gpt


T1 360 AD - The Greek troops are moving past us. Down to -22gpt after a new horseman is made. Abe is moving troops to Seattle for the impending battle. One resister is quelled in Paris. Moving troops towards Seattle. Legionary on the barb island gets hit with 3 barb horseman and dies.

T2 370 AD - Lyons flips to the English. New York flips to the Americans. Since I have troops parked outside New York I just take it back. Attempting to starve them down. Moved troop stack next to Babylon. As soon as they get upset we are going to war. Took Seattle, losing 2 horseman and still no leader.

T3 380 AD - New York is taken back by Americans. Declared war on Babylon. More unhappiness abounds. More taxmen made. Ellipi flips to Babylonia, but we get their capital city. Moving troops around to protect New York and Babylon for the moment.

T4 390 AD - Got an elite horseman and 2 babylonian workers! Redoubled my efforts to curb disorder before it happens. Moved troops towards Boston and regrouped forces outside of New York and Seattle. Ellipi is ready to fall leaving only 3 Babylonian cities. Babylonian longbowman attacks a horseman and makes it retreat.

T5 400 AD - Metallurgy done. Military tradition in 11 turns. 140 gold -17gpt. Boston falls! We lose 3 legionaries in the process but it's ours. Washington is my next target, and we have a full complement of troops for it. I take Ellipi and it auto-razes. Traded WM to the Iriqois for WM+15g. Sold a peace treaty to Aztecs for 70 gold and a World Map. We have a weak legionary within attacking distance of the Babylonians, but a stack behind him.

MIDPOINT ASSESSMENT: We have 3 babylonian cities left and 4 American cities left. With france almost off the map, I think we should finish them next and then take out England. The final American city is way north on a little island. Instead of foraying to the barb island again, it might be a better idea to load up two galleys and take it. It's small enough not to have heavy defenses. Russia will be easy to take but Germany is going to give us some problems.

T6 410 AD - Germany completes Leonardo's Workshop. Nothing much happens this turn, except regrouped our troups and moved them towards the next target.

T7 420 AD - Moved more troops and regrouped. Babylon was nice enough to send a settler our way so next turn we will have 2 more workers. :-)

T8 430 AD - This is when the dam broke. I had been monitoring the happiness each turn like King Alexander said but 5 major cities shut down due to war weariness. Taxed everyone until we had a happy bias again and continuuing the trek onward. I am happy to report that by the end of my turns Washington will have fallen. Troops are positioned for jaunt into Babylonia.

T9 440 AD - Washington stands! After taking out 6 of their pikeman they have one remaining. We have a few troops outside their door and a few ready for backup. That was a hard thing to watch. Foray troops ready to enter Babylon, backup troops entering America. More backup on it's way.

SUMMARY - This was a tough set of turns. Very difficult. Internal buildup of cities was nearly impossible as all efforts were focused on the wars. I hope I left it in a decent spot for Ivan.

SPECIAL NOTE: Alot of tax collectors were made.

I haven't looked very deeply at the save, but I can tell you right now why Washington still stands.

1. It is on a hill.

2. You attacked from across a river

Also, our war weariness is severe. We're at about 60% WW right now. We're going to need to end our war with America soon. I'm not sure if we have enough left to take Washington. We're looking fairly gassed. We have a decent amount of troops, but the WW is really crippling us. Nonetheless, I'm sure Ivan can get us back on track, as we'll have MT by the end of his turns. Even if we have to go to peace before we're done with America and/or Babylon, they will be quite easy to take out with a few cavs.

I haven't looked at the save yet. Hopefully, Ivan will see the save at afternoon/evening, if he's back like he said.

K-B: are we short of troops?

We have around 28 legions and maybe 15 horses. We are quite short of troops on the American front. We'll need to regroup if we're going to fight further there. Making peace with America and finishing off Babylon might be the best course of action. Of course, I leave it up to Ivan, for I have a feeling his expertise probably exceeds mine in the war mongering department.

Zab, did you see what difference it would make to have a couple of entertainers instead of so many taxmen? I know the pros can't abide the use of "clowns" but it might help us squeeze out 1 or 2 turns more at war with America. Just a thought!

Otherwise well done :goodjob: for fighting a 2 front war! It's something I have yet to achieve successfully... (note to King Alex... DO NOT leave me in a position where I have to fight a multi front war! ;) )

Can we have a screen shot (with grid if poss) showing our newly aquired territory?

zab, do you continue one turn more or I can "got it"?
Ivan
Edit: I see, you submited this file.
So I got it.

I mcmg a bit and we can stay one more turn in war. next turn I'd cancel alliance and make a peace with americans. We can't take washington.

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_AD0440_01.SAV


T2 370 AD - Lyons flips to the English. New York flips to the Americans. Since I have troops parked outside New York I just take it back. Attempting to starve them down. Moved troop stack next to Babylon. As soon as they get upset we are going to war. Took Seattle, losing 2 horseman and still no leader.

T3 380 AD - New York is taken back by Americans. Declared war on Babylon. More unhappiness abounds. More taxmen made. Ellipi flips to Babylonia, but we get their capital city. Moving troops around to protect New York and Babylon for the moment.

T5 400 AD - Metallurgy done. Military tradition in 11 turns. 140 gold -17gpt. Boston falls! We lose 3 legionaries in the process but it's ours. Washington is my next target, and we have a full complement of troops for it. I take Ellipi and it auto-razes. Traded WM to the Iriqois for WM+15g. Sold a peace treaty to Aztecs for 70 gold and a World Map. We have a weak legionary within attacking distance of the Babylonians, but a stack behind him.

MIDPOINT ASSESSMENT: We have 3 babylonian cities left and 4 American cities left. With france almost off the map, I think we should finish them next and then take out England. The final American city is way north on a little island. Instead of foraying to the barb island again, it might be a better idea to load up two galleys and take it. It's small enough not to have heavy defenses. Russia will be easy to take but Germany is going to give us some problems.

T6 410 AD - Germany completes Leonardo's Workshop. Nothing much happens this turn, except regrouped our troups and moved them towards the next target.


T9 440 AD - Washington stands! After taking out 6 of their pikeman they have one remaining. We have a few troops outside their door and a few ready for backup. That was a hard thing to watch. Foray troops ready to enter Babylon, backup troops entering America. More backup on it's way.

SUMMARY - This was a tough set of turns. Very difficult. Internal buildup of cities was nearly impossible as all efforts were focused on the wars. I hope I left it in a decent spot for Ivan.

SPECIAL NOTE: Alot of tax collectors were made.
My comments.
T2 At this situation I'd not take a risk to go to war with babs.
You really set hard task to you.
T3 Probably Governor in all Cities could help. you may trade WM with everybody. You'll get more cash.
T5 I am affraid you broke our reputation on another continent.
Now noboby there will make MA with us. Very bad move.
Midpoint.
We really need a approximate plan (80-100 turns) to win the game. Will try to workout today.
T6. I think this is a key. We should capture Leo before upgrade.
T9 When I did embassy in Washington, I wrote that 5 spear there.
So 6-7 picks is resonable.
Summary:
Well, it is playable...

Zab, did you see what difference it would make to have a couple of entertainers instead of so many taxmen? I know the pros can't abide the use of "clowns" but it might help us squeeze out 1 or 2 turns more at war with America. Just a thought!

Dear Mabellino, I know that it's difficult to micromanage good in the higher levels, but it takes some practice on your own epics, to see when the city will riot(or to predict it, for the next turn, especially if the city will grow the next turn). It's not something magic: just experiment. If you want, just select no opponents, and focus just on micromanaging. See the differences between regent and emperor or deity. Now, I'm not say I'm perfect, but at least I try to do better every time.

(note to King Alex... DO NOT leave me in a position where I have to fight a multi front war! ;) )

Oh, don't worry! I'll leave you in a position were you'll have to fight ALL the civs from our continent, as well as the civs from the other continent! I'll make sure to declare to all, just before I save the game... (j/k)

EDIT: In some cases, you can micromange accordingly some cities with high pop to zero growth(but high shields) if: you can't afford to raise the lux or it doesn't matter if you make more taxmen(so the city will riot) AND you want to stay in war. Just something I wanted to add.

pre-plan for the end of game. Please discuss.
1) We need MT, Astronomy, Banking, Navigation. Thats it.
I think it will be enough for domination. I think we will get it from English/Germans "for free" (M.B for our reputation or MA trick I use (Set MA for gpt at the turn when Babs will be eliminated)).
2) Cities we want at our continent is Moscow and Berlin. I am thinking now how to get them ASAP. Any Ideas?

I think a meager cavalry force (10 perhaps) could handle anyone we know right now. Combine a few cavs with the legions we have left, and I think we could make a push for any city on the continent.

I think a meager cavalry force (10 perhaps) could handle anyone we know right now. Combine a few cavs with the legions we have left, and I think we could make a push for any city on the continent.
Dilema is : shall we try to capture Berlin first and then upgrade or upgrade few and capture Berlin?
Another dilema: shall we trade with Russians or we declare them soon?
Problem is not "Can we?" but how to do it ASAP.
I must say that workers work very inefficently.
We have to plant forest/cut forest at remote Cities, not mine.

I know what you mean. Well, I think we can make at least 100 gpt once we turn research off, so I think we can upgrade a few and produce a few more to get enough. Then, once we have Leo's, we can upgrade like mad.

1) ALL the foreing cities captured, should be set on starvation diet. The foreing workers should stop asap improve the tiles of those cities: it's useless, since we'll starve them, and they already have improved tiles to work, when we get some Roman citizens there.
2) Orleans could built a settler(losing 12 shields), and we could fill the gap between Orleans and Babylon before the English(or anyone else) settle it.
3) I don't know how we can take Moscow and Berlin asap, as we're in war with Babylon, and we'd need a few turns, just so our troops get in their last cities(and many of our units need to heal first.)
I don't think it's worth to sacrifice almost all of our Army to just get Moscow and defend(although, we could do it, if we made peace with Babylon and America and heal our troops for 1 turn. Moscow could fall in 2-4 turns).
Just in 7 turns we'll have cavs. 6 cavs combined with our legions are enough to take them out, city by city(don't forget that, we'll constantly build cavs from our core cities).

Dilema is : shall we try to capture Berlin first and then upgrade or upgrade few and capture Berlin?

Definetly upgrade 1-2 cavs at a time, if we turn our research off. We need our cavs to fight the muskets and/or "soften" them up with each assault.

My patience low, so I got MT in 5 turns...
I disided to go to Berlin straight.
Will play tomorrow next 5 turns.
Any suggestions?

I took a look at the save, and I think we should abandon research at this point. We can get Astronomy from our neighbors, and I don't think we really need Banking. If we turn research off, we can get +199 gpt. With that, we can upgrade the rest of our horses fairly soon and use the cash to rush more cavalry. Once we have a decent amount of cavalry, we'll be able to push around anyone that we want.

I agree with KB. I seriously think we should set two western cities to build a few galleys and all cities to build troops.

Rest up our troops and finish up the Americans at least. Then I think we should finish Babylon and France just to get them off the map.

It's not doing anything if we continue the war with America. We should focus on capturing Berlin and Moscow. I think, this time, we should qonquer completely any civ that we attack. No more culture flips. We now have learned MT and have cavalries.
Take them out, and focus on the next civ-target.

But we are leaving behind one-two-three cities. I do agree that Germany needs to go, because they are getting powerful, but I still see France, Babylon, and America on the map.

Those civs are hardly any threat to us now, as they are comprised of only a few cities. Also, the gains we can make by getting Moscow(Pyramids) and Berlin(Lighthouse and Leo's) outweigh the gains we can make from focusing on taking all the smaller civs out. They're easy enough to take out now. I supect 10-15 cav can take out any of them.

Chemistry is a node technology, we should not trade it in any circumstances.
If any civ discover it we should strike this civ first.

But we are leaving behind one-two-three cities. I do agree that Germany needs to go, because they are getting powerful, but I still see France, Babylon, and America on the map.
I think I will remove babilons to open way to Berlin.
France and america are usefull civs as they at war with Greeks and English.

France and america are usefull civs as they at war with Greeks and English.
Exactly. If they have no one to fight, they'll evetually sneack attack us, in the cities that are weak.
The only reason that Greece is STILL at war with France, is because France has only 2 cities, and Greece "believes" that he can take them out(they could, actually, but the AI is stupid), but they're sending 1-2 units at a time, so French spears have time to heal.

Look at current situation.
i remove Babs and got Astronomy, Banking, navigation for "free"
I made MA vs Babs with Greeks and English for gpt and now deal "gone". We are at war with France as a result, however.
we can trade overseas, but our reputation there harmed. I am afraid, that with navigation english will make contact soon and we lose our reputation compleatly.
There are 3 strong civs at our continent and we have to decide which is next target. Now Greeks trade saltpeter to Germans and I strongly consider to go at war with both (Pillage Greeks Saltpeter). (are you scare, Mabellino?)
Another problem: Shall we research to Industrial? Railroad and Sanitation may help...

Ivan, is this your final save? You'll submit the log?
I'll look at this now, and post suggestions, so you can correct me.

Something to take notice: I'm glad that at some point at the future we'll take on England: they have Copernicus and Sistine.

Greece has 2 saltpeter's. I don't think it's good to declare on Greece right now. They have all their army near/going to France, and our eastern cities are undefended or they have poor defence.

@Ivan: do you think that we should try and take those French cities? Greece we'll do it certainly after a few turns: French only have spearmen(no saltpeter) or they could have a few pikes.

I don't know how Greece will react if we declare on Germany. Maybe they'll make an alliance against us.

So, I'd go and take those French cities, wait a few turns, so the Greek troops are going home(while a move a few forces towards the eastern cities), and declare them at some point, when the Greek forces are near their homeland, before they get to their home.

IMHO, we should turn research off, and rush cavalries every few turns, so we'd have a good force of cavalries quickly, take on Greece and throw them out of our continent ASAP. Then, regroup, and take on Germany and/or England/Russia.
Now, I'm not saying that we should not research further; we could get for "free" all the techs we miss, by Greece and/or the other civs that we'll qonquer.

Ivan, is this your final save? You'll submit the log?
I'll look at this now, and post suggestions, so you can correct me.
No, I think I will play 2-3 turns more. But to prepare for next war, I need agree plans with you.

@Ivan, I edited my last post and suggested a few ideas. Please, go back a page and have a look at them.

As I said, we should turn research OFF for the moment, and rush cavalries after a few turns. That way, we could take on Greece (and Germany after a while, at the same time), but have a look at the whole post. As for the techs that we don't have, DEMAND them.

Something more: I'd like to completely qonquer/throw out of our continent(Greece), the civs that we're going to declare from now on.

Turn off research soon (get chem first?), build up cash, assemble the Cavs and go and kick some AI butt! We could have a special "kamikaze" section of troops that we're expecting to lose then any victories will be a bonus!
The french have got to go followed by the germans and greeks. I vote the germans first since the greeks have been hindered somewhat by their war with the french. Don't want to let Bismarck get too big for his boots!

Can we see your turn log Ivan?

We could live with a single scientist for a while, rush horsemen, cavs, and then go for ToG(I think, we should built Newton's)., and then go for Steam Power asap, so we get the increased shield production.

1) Ivan, is this your final save? You'll submit the log?
I'll look at this now, and post suggestions, so you can correct me.

2) Something to take notice: I'm glad that at some point at the future we'll take on England: they have Copernicus and Sistine.

3) Greece has 2 saltpeter's. I don't think it's good to declare on Greece right now. They have all their army near/going to France, and our eastern cities are undefended or they have poor defence.

4) @Ivan: do you think that we should try and take those French cities? Greece we'll do it certainly after a few turns: French only have spearmen(no saltpeter) or they could have a few pikes.

5) I don't know how Greece will react if we declare on Germany. Maybe they'll make an alliance against us.

6) So, I'd go and take those French cities, wait a few turns, so the Greek troops are going home(while a move a few forces towards the eastern cities), and declare them at some point, when the Greek forces are near their homeland, before they get to their home.

7) IMHO, we should turn research off, and rush cavalries every few turns, so we'd have a good force of cavalries quickly, take on Greece and throw them out of our continent ASAP. Then, regroup, and take on Germany and/or England/Russia.
8) Now, I'm not saying that we should not research further; we could get for "free" all the techs we miss, by Greece and/or the other civs that we'll qonquer.
1) I'll play 2-4 turns more.
2) We have no Cathedrals, and Copernicus City will be corrupt...
3) Iteresting that Greeks has no Iron so, probably they trade with germans Iron-Saltpeter.
4) Why not? (If we are not in war with Greek/Germans).
5) I think better attack Greeks first. If Germanas declare we will see.
6) No/Yes, better to arrange defence of Eastern Cities and make "mousetrap".
7) OK, but I'll do it in most rational way (Min. Shield loses programm)
8) We are in "deep" Tech leadership. We now have all techs we need to go to Industrial, and I think nobody will research Physics soon. I think it is 80-110 turns to the end of the game, to benefit RRoad we have to get it in 60-70 turns at least. I am not sure that RR will help much, so, may be 0% research forever is OK.

We could live with a single scientist for a while, rush horsemen, cavs, and then go for ToG(I think, we should built Newton's)., and then go for Steam Power asap, so we get the increased shield production.
What for? To have more shields from RR (100-200 in total) spend 400 for Newton? It is cheaper to build normal University now...
real dilemma is: do we continue "normal" research (say 50%) or close Science completaely?

1) We can have our single scientist in one of Babylon/Amreican former cities. If you think it's useless to go on rail-roading, we should turn research off, and rush cavs, and/or improvements.
2) I understand the plan, but first I'd move a few cavs to Ravenna(only a horse).
3) If you'll play a few more turns, could you send a few troops in the eastern cities for defence?

EDIT: We could send the musket from Mabellonica to Ivanorium, so Ivanorium keeps building cavs.

Also, we could rush muskets in the eastern cities, if we turn research off(just an idea).

1) We can have our single scientist in one of Babylon/Amreican former cities. If you think it's useless to go on rail-roading, we should turn research off, and rush cavs, and/or improvements.
2) I understand the plan, but first I'd move a few cavs to Ravenna(only a horse).
3) If you'll play a few more turns, could you send a few troops in the eastern cities for defence?

EDIT: We could send the musket from Mabellonica to Ivanorium, so Ivanorium keeps building cavs.

4) Also, we could rush muskets in the eastern cities, if we turn research off(just an idea).
1)As I said, for effectiv RR we need them in 50 turns. If we spend 40 turns for Physics it is nonsence.
2-3) I will not Declare any war in my last turns, but prepare as best as I can
4) they are not veterans IMHO.

1)As I said, for effectiv RR we need them in 50 turns. If we spend 40 turns for Physics it is nonsence.


And there's always the possibility we won't have coal! :mischief: This happens to me more often than not. Although I suspect we'd just go and :hammer: it from the other civs

We haven't to lose anything, if we make a single scientist in a corrupt Babylon/American city. We can do it, so why not?

As for the muskets in the eastern cities, I think we'd need them, even if they're regulars. Greek knights are nearby or can get out of Corinth. I'd also like to have a few cavs over there before I declare, so I could defend/attack against any Greek knights/longbowmen.
The thing is if we have the money to do it, or change their current buildings.

EDIT: So, mabellino, you changed your avatar(300 posts) ;)

I agree with turning off our research. Let's get as many cav as fast as we can and blitz our continent. We should set some of our western costal cities to start producing some caravels so we can smoothly transition from war on this continent to war on the other.

I agree with turning off our research. Let's get as many cav as fast as we can and blitz our continent. We should set some of our western costal cities to start producing some caravels so we can smoothly transition from war on this continent to war on the other.
OK, I also think that NOW better to turn of research. But IMHO that later we will want "cash only" as well.
How many caravells we need?

I'm not sure. There seems to be open land left on the other continent, so we could ferry cavalry across and park them in open territory or sign an RoP with someone. That way we wouldn't need to take them all at once. Thing is, with our rep trashed over there, we may not be able to get an RoP.

Does anyone know the kill ratio for cavs vs pikes? (or hoplites?) I could go and d/l the combat calculator but the results may be meaningless! The reason I ask is so we can work out a bare minimum #cav and double it (at least!).
If money is a problem why not fire some of our workers and just keep the slaves? We will be capturing lots more soon anyway! :evil:

Thanks everybody for usefull advises today. Really helped.
Sorry for long delay and submition without turnlog.
Also Alex, excuse me for start war myself.
Greeks were at position that I can't resist.
You may try capture Athenes next turn.
I left many troops fortified near Ninivech, I think you can declare to Germans NOW. (Land Legioner and LB near Nurmberg and send Cav). [If Mabellino agrees for 2 fronts].
Regards, Ivan.

Does anyone know the kill ratio for cavs vs pikes? (or hoplites?) I could go and d/l the combat calculator but the results may be meaningless! The reason I ask is so we can work out a bare minimum #cav and double it (at least!).
2)If money is a problem why not fire some of our workers and just keep the slaves? We will be capturing lots more soon anyway! :evil:
It is excelent ratio (I had 100% so far).
2)Thanks, very good advise.

We may be able to pull off a two front war, but it is going to be tough. We'll be spreading ourselves very thin. If a few things go against us, we could end up in trouble.

This is my "got it".

Just a question: how bad is our reputation actually damaged?

When I communicated with the aztecs, I didn't go for the default two choices "we are approaching" or "we overextended ourselves". I select "make a trade" and but it on the table like that.

Is that a reputation damaging act?

Just a question: how bad is our reputation actually damaged?

When I communicated with the aztecs, I didn't go for the default two choices "we are approaching" or "we overextended ourselves". I select "make a trade" and but it on the table like that.

Is that a reputation damaging act?
We had MA with India and Japan vs Atstecs.
When you make Peace before Alliance expire your reputation damage. Moreover, if you breake Alliance nobody will go to Alliance with you for gpt after that.

0 450 AD
0 Circulate over Cities. MT 6 turns. Stop workers and send them to plant/cut forest.
Trade Condimentum to Russians. Trade WM. Change production to horses.
IBT
Germans build Magelan.
1 450 AD
Cancel MA with English. Trade Iron to them for 19 gpt.
Make Peace with Americans for Worker and Phyladelphia. Make RoP with Am for Horses – 3 Workers. Trade WM again and set Sci 90%. Kill bab’s bowman.
Move troops toward Assur and Akkad.
IBT
Greek go toward France. Palace expand.
2 460 AD
Move troops toward Assur and Akkad. Pillage Iron.
IBT
English and Greeks knights appear. Paris riot.
3 470 AD
Capture Assur. Loose horse and Elite Leg at Akkad. Move troops to Ur.
IBT
Resistance reduses. Paris OK.
4 480 AD
Siege Ur. Almost win. Fortified near Akkad. WW appear. Lux 10% Sci 50%. MT next turn.
IBT
MT->Banking. Boston flip to Amer.
5 490 AD
Capture Ur. Pull troops to Akkad. Upgrade 2 horses.
IBT
Greeks retreat to heal. English fight vs Americans. Germans start Bachs.
6 500 AD
Sci 0%.
IBT
More Greeks and English Knights. Galley won vs barb Galley.
7 510 AD
Siege Akkad. Almost win.
IBT
English found Dover.
8 520
Major Trick: Tech for free. I’ll take Akkad this turn, so
Make MA with Greeks vs French and Babs for Astronomy and 60 gpt .
Make MA with English for Banking, Navigation and 122 g for 139 gpt.
Capture Akkad. Money and Techs ours for free.
Make single Scientist in Assur.
Found that Greeks trade Saltpeter to Germans for Iron.
=> War with Germans via Greeks. Send Musk to pillage Saltpeter.
IBT
Greek capture Avingon.
9 530.
Re-grouped troops for war with Greeks.
IBT
Greeks destroy French.
10 540 AD
Declare war to Greeks. Capture Rheims, Avingon, Thermophil.
Kill all troops IBT France and Greeks. Move toward Athens.

I think we can start war with Germans NOW. Using Galley we can transfer troops quickly to Nuremberg. Cavs can go fast themselves.

I just had a look at the save: probably, I'll play tomorrow(I mean, today! It's Friday already, but no work due to Olympic Games).

Ok: I can understand the logic to cut forests, so we can take the bennefit of the shields, but to plant forests near our core cities(not on tundra)? I believe, we should improve the grassland and the hills there. These cities won't be beneffited much from making forests and then cutting them(and if I remember correctly, the game allows this to happen only once; to get the 10 shields, that is), because they already have markets, libraries, etc..

>>SAVE<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_AD0640_01.SAV)

Pre-turn
Micromanage some cities for maximum shields: these cities would grow in 9999 anyway(which means, never), but without starve them.
Other cities need not to grow further right now(pop10 or more), and they can built cavs in 1 turn less.

I think, it’s not good to take on Germany right now, because we haven’t enough force to take them, and, our cities nearby were undefended: Chicago was undefended, Seattle has only one legionary. I’ll take on Greece, keep producing cavs, and mabellino could declare on Germany later. We haven’t anything to lose right now, if we don’t declare on Germany, IMHO. Better to concentrate on Greece, take them out, and then go for Germany, otherwise we won’t gain much(and maybe we’ll lose one city at least). If I see on my turns, that Greece could fall easily, I’ll move the new units to our borders with Germany, so we declare sooner(sorry Ivan, but if I had started the war with Greece, I’d new better what they’re capable of).

I attack Besancon with a cav, and we kill a musket.: cav gets promoted to Elite(2/5 hp’s).

550AD (1)
siege of Athens:
I kill an hoplite(no muskets?), cav gets promoted (3/5 hp’s). Somehow, I have a feeling that mabellino will have the honor of a GL in her turns…
We lose a cav from an hoplite in Athens.
The 3rd cav kills another hoplite, without losing any hp’s, but Athens has many hoplite’s as it seems(?).

Good news: we kill an hoplite, and we take Besancon, cav get’s red-lined(by the regular hoplite). We also capture a worker from Besancon.

IBT
2 hoplites enter the borders of Besancon.

560AD (2)
I kill 2 hoplites with Elite cavs inside the borders of Besancon, but no GL. What’s wrong with this game? We had MANY Elite’s winning but no GL

We kill 1 hoplite at Pharsalos(cav red-lined).

Siege of Athens:
Cav kills an hoplite, get’s red-lined.
We lose an Elite cav, to an hoplite….
We kill another hoplite with an Elite cav, still no GL(argh!!!!)
We kill the last hoplite, and we capture Athens! Cav get;s promoted to Elite, no hp’s loss. We capture a worker from Athens. (Corinth is Greece’s new capital)
We now control the Hanging Gardens.

We capture another worker inside the borders of Sparta with a cav: cav then goes to the hill for a fight next turn.

I rush a temple in Akkad, Ur, Tours, Uruk and Paris. Rush the Bibliotheca in Chartres(we need culture there).

I pillage the saltpeter near Sparta, so they can’t build any more muskets(although hoplites, are tough).

IBT
Bad news: Chicago deposed to the Russians. I hate culture flips.
A Greek longbowman kills our red-lined cav, in Pharsalos.
The English raze Boston(US). England has enough knights, as I can see.

570AD (3)
I rush a temple in Seattle.

We lose a cav attacking Corinth, reg hoplite didn’t lost a single hp, got promoted.

We lose a cav from a musket, attacking Sparta. Another Elite cav kills an hoplite(no hp loss), but no GL.

580AD (4)
We kill an hoplite in Pharsalos, (cav 2/4).

I rush a temple in Ashur.

Siege of Sparta:
We kill a musket, cav gets red-lined.
Full hp Elite cav, can’t kill reg hoplite, retreats.
We lose an Elite cav from the same hoplite.
A vet cav kills the evil hoplite, and Sparta falls: we capture 3 workers.

Siege of Corinth:
A vet cav kills an hoplite.
An Elite cav gets red-lined, retreats.
Another Elite cav kills the last hoplite(cav has 3/5 now), we capture Corinth, but still NO GL!!!

We kill an hoplite in Knossos with an Elite cav, no GL(SOMEBODY CURSED ME. And come to think, I watch closely my Elites and I protect them, so they have their full hp’s).

IBT
We get a nice roof for our palace.

590AD (5)
We kill a longbow with a cav, and Pharsalos falls. We also capture 2 workers.

We kill an hoplite in Knossos with an Elite cav, and the city falls to our hands(of course, no GL).

We kill an hoplite in Ephesus with an Elite cav(gets red-lined; what did you think? No GL!).

I rush a temple in New York and Babylon.

600AD (6)
We kill another hoplite in Ephesus with an Elite cav, no GL(I begin to lose my patience).
Another Elite cav gets red-lined and retreats in Ephesus(unfortified regular hoplite loses no hp’s).

I rush a temple in Avignon.

IBT
Cathy wants to trade Monarchy, and she wants to have Navigation. Of course, I decline.

Bad news again: New York has deposed to America.

We get another palace expansion.

Greece begins JS Bach’s Cathedral.

Germany begins Smith’s Trading Company.

610AD (7)
I rush a temple in Philadelphia. Seattle’s borders can’t reach the rest of our empire anymore(since New York deposed).

We kill an hoplite with an Elite cav, we capture Ephesus, still no GL. We also capture another worker.

We kill an hoplite in Delphi.

620AD (8)
Siege of Delphi (capital of Greece now):
1st cav retreats red-lined.
2nd cav kills an hoplite, gets red-lined.
3nd cav kills the last hoplite and Delphi falls to our hands(cav 2/4).

Hurry courthouse in Forpost.

IBT
A Greek knight in Argos, attacks our cav and loses, cav promotes to Elite(3/5).

630AD (9)
I rush courthouse in Chartres.

IBT
The Iroquis want to trade TM. I offer TM for TM + 2g.

640AD (10)
Siege of Argos:
We kill an hoplite with Elite cav(3/5).
We kill the last hoplite with an Elite cav, Argos falls to our hands, but no GL.
We capture another worker.

I hurry Bibliotheca in Rheims.

Summary
1)Greece hasn’t a city on our continent anymore. Make sure to check every turn and starve the Greek cities(all citizens-taxmen). A have left fortified 1 veteran cav every 2 (former Greek)cities, so if they flip back, take them.
2)Let the wounded Elite cavs to heal(currently they’re fotified), and move them to whatever Ivan will say.
3)If we’re make peace with Greece (4 cities in the barb island now), they’re giving Monarchy, Chivalry, Music Theory, 17g, WM, and 4gpt.
4)When our Iron deal with England ends, DO NOT RENEW IT. They already have enough knights.
5)Watch our single scientist(just in case), to be in one corrupt city(currently in Ur).
6)Ivan sorry, but this way(attacking Greece alone) I felt that it would be safer from culture flips, it would be qonqured quickly and I would make the life easier for mabellino. Whoever we decide to attack from now on, it should be to the end.
7)I don’t KNOW how we haven’t got a Great Leader with Rome, yet. Even with a non-militaristic/expansionist civ, I normally would have got many until now.

Nice war! Wow. I was not expecting Greece to fall so easily. I hope the Germans fall like that as well.

Absolutely great turns, K-A! :goodjob:

It's looks great to see that green blob removed from from our continent. I plugged the game into map stat, and our highest flip chance is 0.55%. Hopefully that means we won't have too much trouble with flips.

As for our next target, I suppose Germany makes sense, although we could go for anyone. England is still busy hacking at America, so going after Germany, and then moving in a couter-clockwise motion around our continent would work nicely. We can then move our cavs down the coast, load them up, and spread mayhem and destruction to the other continent.

As for building, we should keep pumping out cavs, and using our income to rush them whenever possible. Our western coastal cities should keep pumping out caravels.

I think we should make peace with Greeks now (Demand Mykens, +Gold, we have no fleet to continue war.)
Pillage saltpeter near Pharsaphalos (in case of flip), do not strave Cities, we need population for domination. We will capture them again if flip. I think we can build Bank in Rome. To connect Seatle faster we can build Colony on Saltpeter. I'd stop workers near Akkad to build military road to Germany.
Also, I'd send troops to Germany NOW.
Defenetly we'll not renew Ferrum deal with English. Lux deal is OK.
Comment to K. Alex Summary:
1)Greece hasn’t a city on our continent anymore. Make sure to check every turn and starve the Greek cities(all citizens-taxmen). A have left fortified 1 veteran cav every 2 (former Greek)cities, so if they flip back, take them.
Disagree. Let them grow, better to take them back again. Build Workers and units there
2)Let the wounded Elite cavs to heal(currently they’re fotified), and move them to whatever Ivan will say.
Put them to Barracks City for faster heal send to Germany then
3)If we’re make peace with Greece (4 cities in the barb island now), they’re giving Monarchy, Chivalry, Music Theory, 17g, WM, and 4gpt.
better to take Mycenes+something
4)When our Iron deal with England ends, DO NOT RENEW IT. They already have enough knights.
EXACTLY! Lux deal is OK
5)Watch our single scientist(just in case), to be in one corrupt city(currently in Ur).
yes
6)Ivan sorry, but this way(attacking Greece alone) I felt that it would be safer from culture flips, it would be qonqured quickly and I would make the life easier for mabellino. Whoever we decide to attack from now on, it should be to the end.
Please do not delay with Germans Now
7)I don’t KNOW how we haven’t got a Great Leader with Rome, yet. Even with a non-militaristic/expansionist civ, I normally would have got many until now.
That means that we play VERY GOOD. (Too good to be true.) Actually RNG is not random, but take into account your overall score
__________________

@Ivan: ok, let's not starve the Greek cities. I think, a few temples there, could help with the border expansion. I also find it better to demand a Greek city on the barb island(so we can have a foothold there and qonquer the island later).

I didn't know that the GL generation is based on the overall score.
You know, I could have qonquered the last Greek city on our continent on turn 9, but I waited until 2 Elite cavs came there(they would strike on turn 10). I lost 1 turn, sorry(although, I didn't send any new/old units there any more[I had them move towards Germany], so it didn't actually had any qonsenquences on the outcome of the war).

I really wanted to generate a GL: I desperately kept attacking with Elite cavs too many times(and also I had many veteran cavs promoted), I protected them and had them healed, but, maybe we'll be lucky with Germany.

The rule about GL is observation, not a "rule". I don't know how actually we can increase probability to get GL.
Problem with Ferrum: Germans has 2 Iron and will trade to English I am afraid. We can go in Alliance with English vs Germany (Lux+money) or capture Iron Cities quikcly.

@K-B: I think, you can play. Mabellino hasn't showed up until now. If we all agree, she could play after you(?). Anyway, I think Ivan would also agree.

@K-B: I think, you can play. Mabellino hasn't showed up until now. If we all agree, she could play after you(?). Anyway, I think Ivan would also agree.
I also think that we should keep 24 hours rule. K-B may start.
If Mabelino ask to play after, I think it is OK. If Zab "got it" before Mabellino, he will play.
Ivan

Alright, sounds good. I'm always up for wiping out a civ with cavalry. Got it.

Alright, sounds good. I'm always up for wiping out a civ with cavalry. Got it.
Good. I recomend MA with English vs Germans for Lux and Cash.
(Bank in Rome). Cancel Ferrum deal with English. That way English Knights end up soon. If GL appear build FP in Ninevech or Orlean.
good luck, Ivan.

I have no problem with Mabellino jumping in after KB if she shows up. I hope she does, because the aftermath of the German War is going to be a pain. :-)

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_AD0750_01.SAV)


Preturn- I negotiate peace with Greece. I get Mycenae and gold and his WM.

I shift some legions over to the Greek lands to help quell resistance.

IT- Russia offers to renew one of our lux deals. She''s only going to give 2got, and we'll be invading her soon, so I decline.

T1 650

I end our iron deal with Lizzy.

I move lots of cav up to the German border. I'll wait one or two turns to declare though, as I want at least 5 cavs to work with, and we only have two or three in striking distance.

IT- I decide not to renew out RoP with America.
Germany completes Magellan's in Hamburg. That will be quite a nice addition for our naval force.

T2 660

Not much of note. I shuffle some legions and muskets around in old Greece to quell resistance. Move more cav to German front. I think I can attack next turn.

IT- Lots of resistors quelled.

T3 670

I declare war on Germany.

I move in our cav and attack Heidelburg-

Vet cav flawlessy kills a reg pike.
Vet cav kills reg pike, and the city is ours, with 4 resistors.

I gather what cav we have in the city, and I'll strike our more next turn.

IT- Two German swords enter the vicinity of Heidelburg.

T4 680

I move our cav in on Hamburg.

Vet cav slaughters vet pike.
Vet cav kills reg pike
Elite cav kills a longbow and we finally get a....no, of course we don't. We probably won't get a leader until the second to last turn or so. Nonetheless, the city is ours, along with Magellan's.

In some other action, I decide to kill the two swords parked on the mountain outside Heidelburg. A vet cav wins, and an elite cav wins, and....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTMIIIleader.JPG


Well, Mr. Trajan. Better late than never, I suppose :lol:

He heads to Orleans to build a long overdue FP.

IT- No sign of German troops

T5 690

Not much. I move a lot of cav into strinking distance of Leipzig. This one is defended by at least one musket.

IT- America wants an alliance against the English. No, afraid not Abe.

We defend successfully against a German knight at Hamburg, but it's a moot point as the city flips, taking 1 cav with it.

T6 700

One of our cavs takes out the pike in Hamburg, and it is ours once again.

I move Trajan to Orleans and rush the FP.

At Nuremburg, a legion I dropped off from a boat redlines the pike, and then I send an elite cav at it and....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/KBGLII.JPG

Well now...I guess when it rains, it pours. Someone must have turned on the GL switch before my turns.
The city is now ours.

I decide to make an Army out of this one, as there are no wonders worth rushing.
I decide to only load two cavalry in this army, because if we load any more, we won't be able to transport it in a caravel.

Our invasion continues at Leipzig

We lose three cavs, and have two redlined, but the city is ours. On a side note, we destroy a German GL in taking the city. It must have been generate from one of the wins the elite musket had against us. Nonetheless, I enjoyed killing it :lol:

I begin to mass our troops for a strike at Berlin

IT- We complete the FP in Orleans. Our income jumps by about +100 gpt.

T7 710

Just maneuvering of troops to go for Berlin. It will fall next turn.

IT- zzz

T8 720

Siege of Berlin

9/9 Army take out vet musket, losing 4 hp.
Vet cav takes out reg pike
Elite cav takes out redlined musket
Vet cav takes out redlined musket and take the city.

We lose 3 cavs in the process.

I move troops towards Frankfurt.

I switch Rome to Heroic Epic.

IT- I renew a lux deal with India.
Stupid Leipzig deposes to the Germans.

T9 730

An elite cav easily retakes Leipzig.

Siege of Frankfurt

Three cav win, one retreats, and we take the city.

Germany's capitol is now on the barb island.

IT- Germans want peace. I say forget it. We can take out his two tundra cities first.

Berlin flips back to Germany. Yet another reason I don't want peace.

T10 740

An elite cav takes back Berlin.

I begin massing troops on the Russian border. I think Zab should invade Russia on his turns.

I'll take on elast turn to get us to 750 and to better prepare our attack force.

IT- zzz

T11 750

As Ivan did with Greece, I'm going to jump at an oppurtunity to hit Russia hard. I declare and move in.

We capture Smolensk, Minsk, and St. Petersburg. Chicago will fall next turn, as could Odessa.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/KBOverall.JPG


Summary

We've gained a lot of ground. The Russians could be finished in a few turns. We'll probably need a decent amount of Cav for Moscow, so make sure our attack force is consolidated before you attack. Also, be sure to not attack across a river
Aside from that, have fun :D Keep pumping out more cavalry and stomp the Russians and Germans off the continent.

Heroic turns and Epic strategy, K-B!!! :goodjob:

Now, what happened with the 2 GL's is UNFAIR :cry: Oh, allright, I guess, I'll never get to generate a GL in this game :D I'll make sure to produce many Elites, though. :king:

Let's clear our continent from all the "invaders", and finish them off from the barb island(I like this name, so I'll say it again: barb island), so we don't be bothered anymore with flips.

I'm here again!
I've had no internet access until today, kept getting a blue screen of death error but my lovely talented fiance has fixed it now!
Sorry again for the skip but I kept hoping the comp would be fixed in time!

@Ivan
When I posted about not leaving me in a 2 front war I was joking... with you guys offering advice I'm sure it'll be a piece of cake!

I'm going to read all the above posts again in more detail then play my turns.
I'll post here before hitting enter for the first time with any thoughts/questions

Thanks for taking my place KB :goodjob:

Wow fantastic turns guys... the mini map is awash with the colour of blood :D

Alex, I love your write up about the non generation of leaders! Very funny, you should write our next spoiler post.

KB
Great turns and brilliant luck in getting 2 leaders.

@All
This is my got it.
That FP sure made a difference! I assume we're going for domination? Have we plugged the map into mapstat to see how far from the limit we are?

If I manage a leader I'll name the unit in honour of Alex!

EDIT: I've taken a look at the save and am impressed! I noticed Moscow has the pyramids and Sun Tzu's, makes it a very attractive target!
We are only a few steps away from owning our continent and the other one will fall quickly to the might of our cavalry armies.
My aims for my turns will be to finish the russians and take as much of the germans as possible. I think resistors are quelled when you make peace, so I won't be too worried about removing all those angry red faces for now.

I'll be playing in an hour or so and will post if I come across anything that I need advice on. BRING IT ON!!!! :spank: :hammer: :ar15:

EDIT 2: K-B love your names for the victorious cavs.. "When it rains it pours!" Genius! "About damn time!" Fantastic!!!! :rotfl: :rotfl:

[QUOTE=mabellino]
@All
This is my got it.
That FP sure made a difference! I assume we're going for domination? Have we plugged the map into mapstat to see how far from the limit we are?

we are 1/3 of land needed for domination. I think If we take Atsteks+Iroques on another continent it will be enough.
Better to start war with Atsteks NOW, as they have not connected saltpeter yet and Iroq have no GP Cavs from Core Cities can do it.

EDIT: I've taken a look at the save and am impressed! I noticed Moscow has the pyramids and Sun Tzu's, makes it a very attractive target!
We are only a few steps away from owning our continent and the other one will fall quickly to the might of our cavalry armies.
My aims for my turns will be to finish the russians and take as much of the germans as possible. I think resistors are quelled when you make peace, so I won't be too worried about removing all those angry red faces for now.

Capture russian worker on saltpeter and build colony. Troops will move faster then

I'll be playing in an hour or so and will post if I come across anything that I need advice on. BRING IT ON!!!! :spank: :hammer: :ar15:

[QUOTE]

I am connected now...
We can research fast now, but should we? I think better have Bank in Rome, HE will not help much. Pillage saltpeter nere Pharsafalos, just in case of flip. Kill All Germans - their culture too big.
Send Legioners to Barb Island on galley or Caravel (Upgrade).
When you rush Cavs better to do it in rational way.
For example if you rush Musketer at Mabelonica and swich to Cav, you will get it the same next turn and save 80 gold.

Here's the >>>SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_AD0850_01.SAV)

This was a fun set of turns to play. Hope I didn't mess it up!

750AD Preturn
See posts above for my thoughts

IBT
England and america sign peace treaty

760AD 1
Attack chicago, lose a few HP but capture with 2nd Cav.
Attack Konigsberg, lose a 3/5 elite cav but kill a vet pike & vet knight
Attack Odessa, kill vet pike, no damage.
Lose an elite cav but kill vet pike with vet cav and get promoted. Capture city.

Send a few cavs to coastal cities ready for transport.
Workers complete roads, build mines and plant forests.

IBT
Watch and laugh as german longbowman attempts to injure our elite cav.
St Pete's deposes to Russia, our army is parked at the gates mwah ha ha ha!

770AD 2
Recapture St Pete's with elite cav, no leader
Attack Moscow
NO WAY!!!!! our 7/9 cav army is taken out by a reg pike???? WTF?
Lose one more cav but defeat the Russians and capture Moscow. 3 promotions to elites.
We now own Sun Tzu's and the Pyramids!
Attack Konigsberg, spear redlines our 3/5 cav but we win. Capture city.
Gather troops ready to finish Russians at Minsk.
Make sure there are no troops inside flip risk cities.
WW is starting to make an appearance but isn't serious yet (10-20%)
Trade WM around and get ~50gold for it. Americans offer gpt and I accept it.

IBT
Berlin flips, cav positioned ready to strike!

780AD 3
Recapture Berlin
Change prod in Mabellonica to Military Academy
Attack Kiev, get a few unit promotions and capture city.
We now own the Collossus
Trade WM's but still can't see if any russian cities remaining. Send ships to uncover remaining black areas.

790AD 4
Capture Munich.
Start to amass units near English borders ready to attack them.
Build a few more roads/mines etc.
Trade WM's again.

800AD 5
Complete Heroic Epic
A few cities riot so bump lux tax to 10%
Resistance ends in a few former German cities.

IBT
Spot Russian capital on Barb island.
English move a few knights around.

810AD 6
Load a few cavs onto ships and send them to wipe out the russians. (and possibly the germans too)
Nothing much else of interest.

IBT
England demands we remove our troops from near coventry (must have had a border expansion)

820AD 7
Get a palace improvement.
Rush a couple of caravels on east coast. (I rush worker/explorer first to save gold)
Contact germans, they are down to 2 cities and will offer 1 as part of a peace deal. No thanks!
Russians refuse to talk again!
Cavalry now in position to wipe out russians.
Lots of elite cavs ready to destroy English.

830AD 8
Attack Sevostopol and geat a great leader, Maximus! Woo Woo woo woo!
Rename elite cav to King Alex's Lucky Cav*
Attack elite russian caravel but lose. Suspect it might have a settler on board.

840AD 9
Destroy Russians
Send Maximus home. Use redlined cav (who couldn't fit on galley) to explore more of barb island.
Send 6 elite cavs towards last 2 german cities.

850AD 10
Cavs now camped outside german cities.
Units are moving towards english (ground units) and east coast (ships)
Maximus is outside Berlin

Turn lux slider back to 0%
Now making +427gpt, min science with physics due in 7 turns.

I've left the germans to Zab. Have fun!

Score: 1727 (2nd place=aztecs with 1185)

Ok, progress fast, but better to do it faster.
@Zab, to increase score we can Build JBCath somewhere with GL. I don't think we need MA in mabellonica, next army will appear from it in 30 turns... But I have no idea what to build instead. (University or Bank?) I think now we will have plenty of GLs.
Our troops position is not so good to attack English - we are too thing at south. Need some regroupe. Ubgrade spear. Start war with Atsteks ASAP.

Cant upload file to score forum. But it looks, that we can't beat Mauer if not finish in 20 turns...

Indeed, but I think we stand a good chance of grabbing second, which is nothing to be ashamed of. If we had gotten a leader in one of our first wars, I think we could very well have competed for first.

Indeed, but I think we stand a good chance of grabbing second, which is nothing to be ashamed of. If we had gotten a leader in one of our first wars, I think we could very well have competed for first.
Yes, I think 2-3 place is ours, but let's try some milking; it may help.
We have to irrigate (not mine), joint workers to Cities, have Forums in most, aqueducts, ets. Bachs cathedral also good. Since we do not need any research and have plenty of cash we may put Lux 10-20%, it is also helps.

Got the save. Examining it. Won't start playing for 24 hours while every posts questions and concerns.

Very good, mabellino!! :goodjob:
We've got another GL, and you named it after my honour! I bow before your majesty/excellency :goodjob:

JS Bach's is a VERY good idea: better rush it ASAP.

About the domination limit: the island that the Americans are, and the barb island, aren't enough to hit domination if we settle them?

I'll have a look at the save first, and I'll post more.

P.S.: too bad that we hadn't a GL earlier. We would be rulers of our continent already.

EDIT: Ivan and K-B: what we should do for winning as soon as possible? Have you a plan?

I think we should get some land on the barb island, but not have it the focus of our gains. We have a strong military, so we should put it to use. After England is taken care of, we can fill up our caravels and ship the cavalry to the Aztecs. We should be able to slice through them as easily as the others, I hope. We can grab the cities on the barb island and rush some settlers there to grab every little piece we can too.

Looked at the save.

I agree with Ivan that we need a bit more regrouping before our destruction of the English. We have a wide open hole down by Oxford, ie undefended cities. I would feel better if I could rush some troops down here so that it is one of the first cities to disappear off the map. Ideas?

Also, I very much thank Mab for leaving me the opportunity to play with the Germans one last time. Once we are done, we will have a strong amount of troops that can be moved south to finish greeks if we all would agree on that. I would rather not work them all the way around the world if we can take some cities close by.

We have a strong military, but the numbers are low in key areas. Eastern England has a fighting chance if we can't rush some troops there.

I feel that I should take 2 turns to get everything together on the English front. Consider Germany gone.

Ideas?

Hmm I seem to have misled everyone by saying the units were ready to attack England. What I meant was the units I used to wipe out the russians and germans were then relocated to near English borders. I didn't go round and wake all our units and I didn't plan where to put them. I just looked for the nearest unclaimed/our territory tiles and stacked the cav there. I assumed that we wouldn't be going to war just yet anyway and the next player would be getting our forces ready. Sorry if I confused everyone.

@Zab
It's a pleasure, I would have needed 1 or 2 extra turns to finish them and since I was feeling bad about the skip, I thought that would be taking the mickey a bit.

A few suggestions:
1) don't leave units inside cities with rebels. Better have them outside and retake the city(s) if they flip. e.g.: that Elite cav in Leipzig could help with the upcoming war with England, move him at pre-turn from there. Leipzig could flip at any moment. I know that the Germans would be history the next turn, but better to cover our back.
2) Zab, upgrade the spear in Forpost, and send a cav in Orleans(we have our FP there) as well as in Forpost, Chartres and Paris. Anyway, you'll be sending our new units from this direction, but it's good to have a cav in Orleans.
3) In 2 (former Russian) cities there are fortified workers. Order them to work!

@Ivan: you said earlier that we damaged our reputation? If that's true and we don't care about reputation anymore, I think it would be better to declare AND attack the same turn. Cavs are well on offense; I wouldn't want us to lose some cavs while they're trying to defend against knights.

A few suggestions:
1) don't leave units inside cities with rebels. Better have them outside and retake the city(s) if they flip. e.g.: that Elite cav in Leipzig could help with the upcoming war with England, move him at pre-turn from there. Leipzig could flip at any moment. I know that the Germans would be history the next turn, but better to cover our back.
2) Zab, upgrade the spear in Forpost, and send a cav in Orleans(we have our FP there) as well as in Forpost, Chartres and Paris. Anyway, you'll be sending our new units from this direction, but it's good to have a cav in Orleans.
3) In 2 (former Russian) cities there are fortified workers. Order them to work!

4)@Ivan: you said earlier that we damaged our reputation? If that's true and we don't care about reputation anymore, I think it would be better to declare AND attack the same turn. Cavs are well on offense; I wouldn't want us to lose some cavs while they're trying to defend against knights.
1) I think we remove germans next turn, but keep elite might be resonable.
2) Indeed better upgrade whatever we have ASAP (Leo).
3) Plant/Cut forest
4) They don't have contact yet, so our reputation is clean on our continent, but bad overseas. I recomend to start war with Atsteks ASAP, before we finish English. We have enough troops to fight on both continents. Sure, we mast declare and attack the same turn, not waiting of their reaction.

Looked at the save.

I agree with Ivan that we need a bit more regrouping before our destruction of the English. We have a wide open hole down by Oxford, ie undefended cities. I would feel better if I could rush some troops down here so that it is one of the first cities to disappear off the map. Ideas?

We have a strong military, but the numbers are low in key areas. Eastern England has a fighting chance if we can't rush some troops there.

I feel that I should take 2 turns to get everything together on the English front. Consider Germany gone.

Ideas?
IMHO that 1 turn is enough to regroupe.
I think first City that we have to take is one (Counturbery)near Saltpeter. 4 Cavs may reach this City in 1 turns. You also may send 1 Leg to support attack.
At south we may defend our land and send available troops to Atstek land. This way we have a chance to win in 15-20 turns. We may trush our reputation and take Economy from germans before kill them all.

We may trush our reputation and take Economy from germans before kill them all.

So I should take economy from the Krauts and then smash them?

So I should take economy from the Krauts and then smash them?
Francly speaking, I don't know, do we need Economy? We may build TSC with next GL it will give us extra 20-30 gpt... It doese not mean much now. Our best chance to win fast is fast regroupe. Better think how to go fast to another continent...

If we need to get oversees quickly then I should immediately rush-build any troops I can in the first turn and get them on the caravels. By turn 3 we should have half the caravels moving towards Azteca.

TURNLOG SO FAR

PRETURN 850 AD - Made peace with Germany and got Economics and World Map from them.

T1 860 AD - Redeclared war with Germany, and they disappear from the map. The good news is that we now have a turn for the war weariness to ease up on. Regrouping forces and preparing the caravels for Azteca. We have one troop up north, so while I have the chance I am going to eliminate Abe. Completed JS Bachs Cathedral.

T2 870 AD - Declare War on England. There are lots of knights surrounding Atlanta and Washington, so I expect a couple of casualties. We have two full caravels of Cavalry on the southwest coast. I want to fill two more before embarking, and continuuing to fill caravels until we have about 30-40 on the enemy island. That way, Ivan can just rip through everyone in his path. New York falls easy.

T3 880 AD - England is sending a Great Leader towards us. Oops! It doesn't make it. Somehow we have "Love the Emporer Day" all over the map! Atlanta and Canterbury falls, cutting off their supply of saltpeter. Declare war on Americans and take out a spear. Consider them gone. We have 4 caravels full of cavalry ready to send to Azteca.

T4 890 AD - England takes back undefended Canterbury and temporarily reclaiming their saltpeter, but I take it back and pillage saltpeter for good. Newcastle falls. WASHINGTON FALLS! I knew I would get another shot at this city. I am proud to report that we now have control of the Great Wall! I am going to spend the next turn regrouping troops, as we are kind of spread out. Watched an elite cavalry die on a regular spearman, but oh well.

T5 900 AD - Englad takes back Washington. They have no more knights up here so I hope to take it back next turn.. Take back Newcastle and it autorazes. My next targets are Nottingham and Lyons. I believe we can unify the troops at Warwick for a foray into London. We have 4 caravels full of cavalry on the southwest border. We finish the Americans.


Ideas and comments are appreciated. I will wait for them before finishing my turns.

Just finish the English quickly(take them out from the barb island, too), and move troops for the war with Aztecs.
As soon as we get rid of the English, most of our troops should go to the other continent, so, keep producing caravels in the western-coastal cities.

P.S.: maybe you could build/rush a few frigates also, to protect our caravels(it's bad to lose them when they're loaded with troops).

I concur with K-A, although we may not need the caravels as long asw e don't decalre until right before we land. If we want to be really vicious we could sign a RoP with the Aztecs and rape them. Not sure what the team thinks of this. I generally tend not to do it, as it seems exploitive.

If we want to be really vicious we could sign a RoP with the Aztecs and rape them. Not sure what the team thinks of this. I generally tend not to do it, as it seems exploitive.

I like this idea, we'll save a couple of turns and that could mean the difference between 2nd place and 3rd/4th.

You guys have taught me a lot about effective warmongering, let's finish the lesson with a really good RoP rape.... our rep's trashed anyway! (and we certainly don't need to trade!)

Yes, we could sign a RoP and brake it, but, I think 2 frigates should be enough to protect our caravels: the frogates should stay close but out of range of Aztec harbors, so their counter-attack is insignificant. 4 tiles away from their harbors should be enough for our frigates: the Aztec ships should have a 3 movement, compared to 5 from ours.

Anyway, I can't be sure how long it'll take until we win; maybe the game will be won after 20 turns, as Ivan said. I just wanted us to be careful in these turns, that's why I suggested the frigates idea, because we may need reinforcements.

Aztecs have crap for navy right now. I am not too concerned, however it would be foolish just to jump in without something.

The war with the English won't be over by the end of my turns. There are simply too many cities and too few troops in that area. I am definately sending more that way, but Ivan may be the finisher of the English.

On another note, did anyone notice the group of troops I have heading towards the remaining Greek cities? 8 cavalry will take Greece off the map, if nobody objects.

If I remember correctly, we had around 8 cavs to take the Germans when I saw the last save(mabellino's save), and another 2 cavs were on a caravel and about to land the next turn. I think, those cavs are quite enough to take out Greece and clean the island from the barbs.

Better send them towards the Aztecs.

>>> SAVE <<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_AD0950_01.SAV)

COMPLETE TURNLOG

PRETURN 850 AD - Made peace with Germany and got Economics and World Map from them.

T1 860 AD - Redeclared war with Germany, and they disappear from the map. The good news is that we now have a turn for the war weariness to ease up on. Regrouping forces and preparing the caravels for Azteca. We have one troop up north, so while I have the chance I am going to eliminate Abe. Completed JS Bachs Cathedral.

T2 870 AD - Declare War on England. There are lots of knights surrounding Atlanta and Washington, so I expect a couple of casualties. We have two full caravels of Cavalry on the southwest coast. I want to fill two more before embarking, and continuuing to fill caravels until we have about 30-40 on the enemy island. That way, Ivan can just rip through everyone in his path. New York falls easy.

T3 880 AD - England is sending a Great Leader towards us. Oops! It doesn't make it. Somehow we have "Love the Emporer Day" all over the map! Atlanta and Canterbury falls, cutting off their supply of saltpeter. Declare war on Americans and take out a spear. Consider them gone. We have 4 caravels full of cavalry ready to send to Azteca.

T4 890 AD - England takes back undefended Canterbury and temporarily reclaiming their saltpeter, but I take it back and pillage saltpeter for good. Newcastle falls. WASHINGTON FALLS! I knew I would get another shot at this city. I am proud to report that we now have control of the Great Wall! I am going to spend the next turn regrouping troops, as we are kind of spread out. Watched an elite cavalry die on a regular spearman, but oh well.

T5 900 AD - England takes back Washington. They have no more knights up here so I hope to take it back next turn.. Take back Newcastle and it autorazes. My next targets are Nottingham and Lyons. I believe we can unify the troops at Warwick for a foray into London. We finish the Americans.

T6 910 AD - Regrouping. Lots of it.

T7 920 AD - Oxford overthrows their government and claims allegiance to us. How nice of them. Move our troops to English doorsteps. York falls and we take Copernicus Observatory. Fighting musketmen sucks. War weariness is setting in again.

T8 930 AD - Nottingham falls and we get no special treats from it. Take Washington and get a Great Leader! I call this one Mabel's Thanks and build an army out of it. A little regrouping.

T9 940 AD - York flips back, but we lose no troops. We take it a moment later but lose another elite cav to a darn spearman. Finish cleaning England off of the barb island. Now we just have to deal with the continental cities. Palace expansion.

T10 950 AD - Sign ROP with Aztecs and start sending ships that way. Troop buildup outside of London and Greek borders. We take Lyons but I expect it to flip back next turn.


SUMMARY: We have massive troops ready to finish England and Greece. I didn't build any more caravels, but after the first wave drops off the troops on Azteca we can have them return for the English victors. England has 4 cities left (5 if Lyons flips) and I just renewed WM with Greece, so the cities on the Barb island is all they have. War weariness is high, but under control for now.

My computer keeps crashing when I try to take a screenshot, so if someone else can do that I would appreciate it.

Ok, Zab, I'll look at the save in a couple of hours, before I can propose any suggestions.

I'm not sure about the RoP with the Aztecs, but, since our rep is not a factor anymore, we'll see.

I've taken a look, and I think we look ok, but could be doing a bit better. The biigest thing that jumped out at me was that a lot of our core cities were starving due to hired taxmen. I also noticed that we had the lux tax set at 0%. It's much more efficient to bump the lux tax up to 10%. With all the taxmen back at work, our income is comparable despite the 10% loss, and all our people are back at work.

Aside from that, things appear mostly good. I would suggest perhaps changing the Military Academy build in Mabellonica to Smith's. We'll only have Smith's for a few turns, but its better than nothing. Armies really don't help us out that much, seeing as this isn't in Conquests. Otherwise, I'd be all for getting more armies.

Another thing I think we can do once we have taken the Greeks out is to build some more cities on the barb land. This is cheap land that is just waiting to be colonized. Every tile we can gain there is one less we have to spend time beating out of the AI.

Well, hindsight being 20/20 I think we could have really used the extra caravels. We should have a steady influx of troops to the other continent to wipe out any city in our path. The next 20 turns will be very interesting to watch.

Ok, got save. I will be disconnecteted next 27 hours, however.
Regards, Ivan.

Here is a screenshot of our England situation.

Good to see a screenshot Zab! I was so tired yesterday that I didn't go to my PC at all.

I agree with K-B: we should colonize all the barb island and place the cities in a position to claim every tile after we rush a library/temple in each(probably library).
We should also settle a couple cities on our own continent, and maybe relocate some cities, and the settlers could be rushed from non-core cities and of course, rush libraries in there, too.

I have a feeling that the Aztecs are going to be more difficult than we think. They are pretty well armed after 5000 years of bloodless wars. Maybe we can bribe the Iroquois into helping us to draw some of their fire away.

The problem is, we aren't going to be able to get any alliances there, as our rep has been trashed on that continent for quite some time. If our rep hadn't been messed up, we could have kept all of them at war with each other for a very long time before we even invaded..

I think I'll try to capture Atstek's saltpeter first. Settelment on Barb's Island is good idea, but I think it is more effeicient to capture Cities overseas. I'll swich to Magnetizm to have Galeons for fast transfer. Hope English will done in 4-5 turns.
Regards, Ivan.

I run the game in CRpMapStat(spoiler-free) and Mapstat yesterday, since we know 92% of the world map(80% required):
We own 31-32% of the available tiles(from what I remember), so this game has some way to go.
We need to settle the barb island, capture cities on the other continent, rush libraries in our own cities, I believe.

I seriously think that England is low on troops. With no saltpeter they can only rush spearmen. imo you will have them off the map in 5 turns.

However, I think we need lots more troops in Azteca. Even with the caravels, the troops in England will be travelling 3-4 turns to get to Aztec shores. Galleons will help a bit but how long do we have to wait for them?

Yes, definately pillage the saltpeter and any iron that you see. I know the Aztecs have knights but I think the bulk of their military will be swordsmen.

And definately try bribing someone else to join the war. It's slim, but everyone can be bought.

Here is the save. Unafortunately after I hit Enter I got msg "Civ perfom illigal operation" I have no idea how to fix it. I'll send turlog later.
Regards, Ivan

I've fix this problem but will not continue to play. it takes too much time, also we have to plan a strategy for the next few turns. King Alex, please.
Regards, Ivan

so how are we doing Ivan? are the english eliminated? How's the aztec war going?
As far as planning goes then I think we need another 'operation culture rush'.
Mapstat has revealed how little land we own so we need to rush cities and libs to expand over all the available space.

Of course we could just abandon the domination plan and go for conquest.....

As one might expect, Ivan has outdone himself. His effiecient war mongering is quite a wonder to behold.

Very nice turns, Ivan.

This is my "got it". I'll play on Suturday or Sunday. Feel free to discuss.

Wow Ivan you're a genius! :worship: :hatsoff:
I can't wait to read your turn log! I'm home now so will d/l the save and have a good nosey...

KB, thanks for posting the screenie :goodjob:

I think a good strategy would be kill, kill, an kill some more. :evil:

Just keep pressing forth against the Aztecs I think. And we can probably go for min science again to get some cash. Not sure why Ivan researched so far. I understand getting galleons, but I'm not sure what going industrial will do. Oh well. At least we'll be able to dominate the world to the cool Industrial Age piano music :lol:

Ivans turnlog:
0 950 AD
Pre-turn. Tech changed to Magnetism (40%, 60%, 0%)(5 turns).
Trade Japan Ebur+3gpt for Suff+Saltpeter+Coudi+Fur.
Trade India 26 gpt for our Lux without Gems+6 gold.
Change MA to Smith.
IBT
Barbarians come, Babylon riots. Automove was not disabled therefore caravels sailed in an unknown direction.
1 960 AD
Capture Warvic, attempted to capture London,
Declare war and land on Aztec territory
IBT
Barbarians attack Norwich, are destroyed.
2 970 AD
English Destroyed
Captured Tula, Tzintzunten, Tlaxcala. Got GL and used to build Army.
Declared war on Greece and captured Rhodes.
IBT
Aztec loses a swordman.
3 980 AD
Calixtlahuaca captured.
Herakleia captured.
IBT
Lost two cavalry near Aztec capital, Tlaxcala culture flips.
Aztec loses a swordman. Magnetism discovered
4 990 AD
Captured Eretria, recaptured Tlaxcala, . Saltpeter pillaged
IBT
Aztec lose 4 swordmen, we lose 1 cavalry.
5 1000 AD
Tenchtitlan and Thessalonica captured.
IBT
We lose two cavalry, Aztec lose three swordmen.
6 1010 AD
Tlateloco captured
IBT
Nothing happens
7 1020 AD
Greek Destroyed, Tlacopan captured.
IBT
Barbarians attack Legeoner and die. Workers hide in Grand River.
8 1030 AD
Capture Grand River, Saltpeter pillaged. Move troops to Xochicalco.

1) I think a good strategy would be kill, kill, an kill some more. :evil:

2) Just keep pressing forth against the Aztecs I think.

3) And we can probably go for min science again to get some cash.

4)Not sure why Ivan researched so far. I understand getting galleons, but I'm not sure what going industrial will do. Oh well.

5)At least we'll be able to dominate the world to the cool Industrial Age piano music :lol:
1) I think we have to Capture, not kill. May be domination will work.
2) I think without saltpeter (now) and Iron (soon) Aztecs are doomed (3-4 turns max). Iroquois are next.
3) question is shall we go to domination or conquest. If conquest better to have RR, and Rep. Parts. (30 turns approx). If Domination, we need money to rush Libs and tempels and settlers. (20 turns probably more).
4) But I like RR anyway.
5) To be honest, I'd like to test my new computer at industrial age. It crashed, as I thought, bu my son managed to fix it.

Indeed, I didn't mean to imply that we should raze everything, domination is going to net us the highest score.

>>SAVE<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_AD1130_01.SAV)

Pre-turn
Hurry Bibliotheca in Athens, and change some libraries(we didn’t lost many shields) to settlers for the barb island, hurry settler in Nuremberg, Herakleia and Mycenae.

Press Enter…

IBT
We learn ToG: I choose Steam Power as our next tech.

We get a palace expansion.

1040AD (1)
We found Hispalis on the barb island.

We kill a pike in Ixtapaluca.

Siege of Xochicalco:
Eite cav kills a pike.
We lose an Elite cav to a reg pike.
Eite cav kills another pike.
Eilte cav kills the last pike and we capture the city. :clap:

Hurry Bibliotheca in Cologne, San Francisco, and Hannover. Hurry templum in Troy.

War Weariness is BIG, and MicroManaging requires a lot of time.

I’ll shut down the research for a while(I’ll make a single scientist), because we need the money to rush libraries and temples.

I won’t begin Newton’s, as we don’t need it.

IBT
The Aztecs re-capture Teotichuacan with a cav(0 gold stolen).
Tlacopan flips back to the Aztecs(we didn’t lost a single cav as before, as I won’t let them fortified inside the Aztecs cities).

We complete Smith’s Trading Company in Mabellonica. :goodjob:

1050AD (2)
We re-capture Tlacopan and Teotichuan.

I kill a spear in Ixtapaluca.

We capture Malinalco, Tlalmanalco, Teayo, and Texcoco(Aztec capital). :clap:

I rush a temple in Lyons and London, and Bibliotheca in Coventry.

IBT
3 Japan galley’s are near York: I hope that they won’t unload units the next turn. Maybe they’re going to the barb island.
Montezuma wants peace; I show him the door.

1060AD (3)
We find Viroconium, Lugdunum, and Lutetia on the barb island.

We kill a musket and 3 spears in Chalco and lose 1 Elite cav, but 1 longbow remains in the city.

We capture Ixtapaluca and Cattaraugus. :bounce: I pillage another 2 Iron resources(I had pillaged 1 more the previous turn).

I rush settlers in Sparta, Athens, Ephesus. I rush Bibliotheca in Delphi and Oxford.

1070AD (4)
We capture Chalco.

I rush templum in Knossos, Argos and Hastings.

1080AD (5)
I rush templum in Sparta, Ephesus and Mycenae.

IBT
Chalco flips back to the Aztecs.

1090AD (6)
We re-capture Chalco.

I rush temple in Norwich, Eretria and Lugdunum.

IBT
We get another palace expansion.

1100AD (7)
We capture Tepexpan, and Cempoala. :devil2:

I rush templum in Hispalis, Syracuse and Viroconium.

IBT
Texcoco flips back.

1110AD (8)
Cempoala(former Aztec): in this city I have problems managing it, because it’s on the EDGE of the map and I CAN’T see where the citizens work, and I don’t know how to prevent the riots. So, I let the governor control this city.

We re-capture Texcoco.

We capture Huexotla, and I let the governor control it(same as Cempoala as I mentioned above).

I rush templum in Brundisium, Byzantium and Rhodes, and Portus in Hannover.

1120AD (9)
We capture Tepetlaoxtoc.

I rush templum in Thessalonica(my city), Lutetia

1130AD (10)
We capture Chiconautla, and THE AZTECS ARE HISTORY. :band:

I rush templum in Grand River, Tula, Tzintzuntzen and Tlatelolco.

Summary
1) I have 3 settlers in 2 Caravels near Cologne(barb island). I haven’t moved them, because I’m waiting for 2 Galleons(loaded with units) to arrive there. Please escort the settlers slowly with our units, because there are barb camps between Cologne and Norwich(that is the only gap that remains on the barb island).
In Rhodes and Hispalis I have some troops waiting to be picked by our galleons; move them to front along with our new cities on the barb island.
Note that I have 3 more settlers under production in Delhpi, Athens and Sparta(if we want to settle EVERYTHING on the barb island).

2) We could build Newton’s if we want.

3) We could build 5 banks and build the Wall Street: I know that the game reaches towards it’s end, but money are always welcome(we could rush sooner temples, libraries and aquedects).

4) We’re researching Steam Power with a single scientist in Babylon.

5) I have fortified a few cavs inside some of the former Aztec cities, so we get rid of the resistors sooner; after the resistance ends, rush temples and libraries in our borders with the Iroquis first.

6) I think that we should send 1 unit for each of each city on OUR continent that still has resistance; it’s a pitty not to be able to rush there, and we need EVERY available tile. These cities are in the same condition from my last turns!

7) Don’t bother to build workers in the cities on the barb island that are far away and are surrounded by mountains and jungles; just rush harbors and only try to connect those that aren’t by the coast.

8) I didn’t made a trade on my turns; India, Japan and Iroquis are still down to Physics. Nor did I trade for luxes.

9) From 38.8% we went to 49.9% for domination. We already have the required population; we only need more land. We’re ranked 5: all we need now, is to rush temples, markets(in big cities), or to raise our lux a bit, so we get more happy citizens(more points). I wound’t recommend another war. Just make our citizens happy and rush improvements.

Good luck.

I wanted to add something:
1) A galleon near Athens that I forgot fortified, should go to unload the 3 cavs in the barb island for our new cities. If you want, wait for the musket nearby, and sail the next turn.
2) I have a settler near Viroconium: he should settle AFTER that mountain with gold and rush a temple(so we get the maximum available tiles).
3) mabellino: I have a few cavs on the barb island, each on a mountain. Leave them there, as they can "see" enough land and the barb camps cannot re-appear that way.

Maybe Ivan or K-B will make a dot map, with where mabellino should settle.

We should not stop warring. The Iroquois have pikes defending right now, so slicing them up will be easy. If we capture as much territory as we can, combined witht the territory we gain from cultural expansion and settlement, this will be done in 15-20 turns.

We should move the slow units that we have around into cities with resistance, so cavs can be used for further offensives. As far as settling on the Barb land, just space the cities apart a bit, so each one of their expansions will be claiming as much territory as possible.

BTW, good job taking out the Aztecs :goodjob:

K-B: I thought that if we end the resistance in our continent and in the former Aztec cities, we could rush temples and we'll get domination, because the tiles(with the border expansion) are enough for domination, and, also, if we would have our citizens more happy, we would get more points(?).

Anyway, you are more experienced, so I have no problem with your suggestion on continue the war.
btw: some of our troops need to heal for 1-2 turns.

In my turns, I could only send 4-5 cavs and a cav Army on the other continent. I played it offensively but without taking stupid risks, so we didn't lost more than 3-4 cavs during the war.
There are 2-3 cavs fortified in our continent, near the former English cities, as I feared those 3 Japan galleys and the 1 caravel of theirs; as it turned out, they're going back to Japan(?), I hope(you can still see some of them). So, wake them, load them into our galleons and of to the other continent.

Please check to see if I left the former Aztec cities into starvation diet.

I think we must declare war with Iroquois next turn and destroy them ASAP. Best to properly calculate where we will need temples and where libraries. In this case we will finish the game within 10 turns. If mabellino doesn't show and skips again I believe K-B can do it.
Regards, Ivan.
PS I hope i won't have to play any more.

Really nice war.

I believe that we should make a combination of war and rush building temples and such. Set the lux slider as high as possible, kill all research, and switch to happiness producing stuff.

And take out the Iriquois.

EDIT: We should enjoy peace for about 4 turns though to regroup and silence the war weariness.

Ok then, let's take the Iroquis out while we rush improvements!

P.S.: I have 2 cav Armies on the other continent; 1 with 3 cavs, and 1 with 2 cavs, so, load 1 more cav into the later.

Well, since it has been over day since K-A posted the save, I'll pick it up now.

Well, since it has been over day since K-A posted the save, I'll pick it up now.

Nooo missed out by 2 hours!

Last time I logged on KA was going to play today or yesterday!

EDIT:
KB you were on line when I posted this, if you guys can't give me a tiny bit of leeway then you obviously don't see me as part of the team. I accept there have been times where I've gone M.I.A. but I honestly don't feel this skip was justified. Let me know if you want my input. If not, then it's no loss to me.

You know, I knew as soon as I posted something, you would pop in :lol:

I haven't even really started yet, so go right ahead and take it. I certainly don't mind at all. I guess I was just jumping at another chance to play whack-a-civ with cavalry. If all goes well, I may not even get another set of turns ;)

I like the whack a civ part!
I'll play tonight then if no one has any objections... any tips?

I'd say a good guidline would be to expand our territory at all costs. Warfare, settling the barb land, and rushing temples are all things that should be done.

I'd say a good guidline would be to expand our territory at all costs. Warfare, settling the barb land, and rushing temples are all things that should be done.

So are we rushing temples because they're cheaper than libs? I suppose it only makes a turn or 2 of difference anyway.

As regards warfare, how many cavs do we need to guarantee victory at each city? A general rule of thumb would be ok... eg 2cav per pike etc?

Hope, you sort things out and Mabellino play now and K-B next. For fast win we need temples everywhere and Libs somewhere. Land now much larger than in SGOTM2, so If mabellino count tiles by hand it will be a hard job. But you may enjoy and play as you like.
Regards, Ivan.

Aside from capitals, five cav is usually enough to do in any city, provided the rng isn't out to get you. Also it depends if the city is on a hill, if its size 7+, stuff like that. A good guidline is you can never bring too many cavalry.

Nooo missed out by 2 hours!

Last time I logged on KA was going to play today or yesterday!

I guess mabellino has a point. She made her plans according to when I said I was going to play. In the weekends, the 24h "got it" limit, should be 48h. There's also a real life besides Civ.

if you guys can't give me a tiny bit of leeway then you obviously don't see me as part of the team.
Now mabellino, that's not true. We're honored to have you by our team! :D


... any tips?

Just read what I posted, so you know what is going on(where I have the settlers, the galleons, troops-in-waiting, ect.. You may take some time to spot everything, and make your plans). Read what Ivan and K-B suggested after my turns.

It's better to concentrate your attack on 1 target at a time(or 2 if you want, and you have a good plan). Do not wait to defend with cavs; just kill everything in site!(there's enough cavs, IMHO, to whack the Iroquis and also leave 1-2 cavs/ behind for every 2 cities you take, so if they flip back, you could re-capture them).

Make sure not to leave any cavs fortified inside the cities, except the first turn you capture them.

Cavs have 3 movement; use it to your advantage.

Some units need to heal, and others need to go to the front. I think, you need 1-2 turns before you gather all the cavs to the front and also for healing the injured ones. Move the muskets/longbowmen to the front.

Guys sorry about the tone of that post earlier... life has been a bit stressful lately and I was looking forward to taking some anger out on the AI!
I didn't get chance to play much last night but I will finish it tonight and post a turn log before bed.
@KB: thanks for the rough guide, I think operation overkill is about to begin.
@Alex: also very good hints.... you've come a long way since the start of SGOTM2
@Ivan: Aaagh! hand counting all these tiles! I really hope that won't be necessary this time. If it is then we could divide the task out amongst ourselves.
@Zab: Quick hello cos I didn't want to leave you out!

There's also a real life besides Civ.


What???? you're obviously not a true fanatic! ;)

1) Aaagh! hand counting all these tiles! I really hope that won't be necessary this time. If it is then we could divide the task out amongst ourselves.
2) Quick hello cos I didn't want to leave you out!

1) I'll count the main continent. That will make it easy on everyone else. I will wait until your save is posted, though, Mab.

2) Hi! How goes the fun?

I'm not sure why we need to hand count tiles. Plugging the game into CrPmapstat is easy enough. That'll give us the exact amount of tiles we require.

I'm not sure why we need to hand count tiles. Plugging the game into CrPmapstat is easy enough. That'll give us the exact amount of tiles we require.

We will only be counting available coast and land tiles that will become ours on border expansion or plonking a new city down. The problem with MapStat is it just gives the total # unclaimed tiles without any reference to where they are. Depending on how many tiles are required, we should be able to tell by eye if any new cities are required, or if existing ones+ culture will do. It saved our game in SGOTM2!

First things first, here's the >>>SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_AD1200_01.SAV)

1130AD Preturn

Check all cities to make sure food is maximised, only need to adjust a couple.
Send army towards Salamanca
Send galleon+cavs to barb island

IBT
Stupid barbs attack Norwich and fail
Loads of forest chops completed

1140AD (1)
Babylon builds courthouse
3 cultural expansions, 4 temples built,8-9 WLTKD and resistance quelled in ~6 cities.
Rush 4/5 temples
Send 2 cavs to help quell resistance in Moscow and St Petes (need to maximise score)
Send legionary to York (since english are long gone)
Wake all healed cavs and send to iroquois borders (3 rally points for 3-pronged attack)
Try to reduce resistance on home continent by sending a couple of legionaries/longbowmen to sort them out.

1150AD (2)
Loads of cultural expansions and temples completed. Few more resistors quelled.
Cavs arrive in designated locations. Both armies are full btw??? We don't have the pentagon yet!
Rush a barracks in chalco to act as healing location+ upgrades (only 160 gold!)
Rush a few more temples in coastal areas. Resistance is a bi-atch!

IBT
Japan and India come a calling, they both want tonnes of luxes for a measly <40gpt. I decide to withold the goodies and then use them to buy an alliance if we want one against the iroquois.
Plus it can't hurt for their cities to go into disorder!

1160AD (3)
Loads more cultural expansions and temples built.
Lots more cavs built and sent to west coast cities.
Gonzomonium founded on barb island
Decide to wait for one more turn before declaring so both armies will be fully healed.
Workers are busy connecting cities and mining etc.

IBT
Jap and Indian galleys lurking off our coast... I'll keep an eye on them!

1170AD (4)
Ooops forgot to rush more temples last turn... make up for it now
Check mapstat on last turn save.. need 474 tiles.
Declare war on Iroquois
Capture Alleghany,Tonawanda,Centralia and Tyendenaga and only lose 1 cav. Get 1 unit promo but no leader (6 elite victories)
Trade a lux to Japs and India for token gold. Want to prevent Iroquois grabbing them as allies.
Worker overload! Aaagh... decide to fill every tile with roads and irrig/mine where appropriate.
Load more cavs piled onto galleons

IBT
Watch a pathetic Iroquois counter attack... they fall for my worker bait and avoid a redlined cav! Nice!

1180AD (5)
Resistance ends in loads of cities, 3 border expansions and a few more units built.
Attack Mauch Chunk, lose 2 cavs but elite spawns GL Anthony! Woo woo woo! Rename unit Iroquois Stomper*
Capture Salamanca but lose 2 elite cavs in process.
Capital jumps to Niagra Falls
I estimate Iroquois will be extinct next turn or the turn after at the latest.

IBT
Laugh as an elite iro knight impales itself on my vet cav and makes it an elite

1190AD (6)
Weirdest turn ever... nearly every city goes into WLTKD and I get 3 palace improvements? huh?
Capture Mauch Chunk but Oil Springs and Niagra Falls are just 2 hp away from defeat. Damn! I have no more units within reach.
They will be mine next turn! Mwah ha ha ha ha!!!!
Rush a load more temples
We are now 313 tiles from domination

IBT
Lose 2 redlined cavs to Iroquois counter attack

1200AD (7)
Couple of new cities riot thanks to resistance ending.
Damned vet pike kills my 12/12 army! WTF??
Take Oil Springs and Niagra Falls after a few bloody battles. Iroquois are no more!
Found Lunacantorium on barb island
Rush a few more temples.

Getting tired now and don't want to make any more mistakes so decide my turns are up, plus it's a nice round number now!
We own every wonder that's been built btw. Nice, shame we don't get any culture.

Antony is awaiting instruction, I recommend another army or maybe a palace jump to increase score.

Score= 2958

Good luck K-B... you should be able to finish it!

Great work :clap:

I've got some spare time, so I'll try and push us over the top now.

Preturn- We look good.

IT- Lots of expansions and quelled resistance.

T1 1210

We need 203 tiles to win. That shouldn't take too long.

I rush a bunch of temples, and I use our GL to rush another one, as another army at this point won't help us much.

I start moving healed cavalry towards the Indian border.

IT- Same as last IT

T2 1220

We need 139 tiles to win.

Mor temples rushed, cities settled, cav prepared.

IT- Japan demands saltpeter. No way in hell I'm going to stand down at this point. So, they declare awar on us.

We get even more WLTKD as war happiness sets in.

T3 1230

We need 115 to win.

IT- not much

T4 1240

Only 93 tiles left.

I declare war on India. We capture one city.

IT- We encounter some Japanese cav and Samurai in Indian land.

T5 1250

We're now 50 tiles away.

We capture another Indian city.

IT- Japan starts Shakespeares, and.....


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTMIIIend.JPG





Our final Firaxis score is 7280, Jason 8821. We miss out on 2nd place by about 30 points. Nonetheless, great job team, it's been lots of fun.

Right on. That was a good round. I never thought warmongering could be so fun. :-)

Great finish, K-B :goodjob: You got the honor to finish the game. :)

Good turns, mabellino! :goodjob:

@Zab: a good game for your first SGOTM :) I hope you had a good time!

Thanks goes to our Great Leader, Ivan :thumbsup: :clap:

I'll be waiting like a ninja :ninja: for the next SGOTM!

P.S.: Finally, I can view the "rival" threads :D

Good game everyone. Congratulations. :thumbsup:

Perhaps the next game will be a little less bloodthirsty. You never know your luck until you tread in it. ;)

Indeed, it might be fun to go for a fast space race or something for a change. Of course, we'll have to wait and see which game is up next. If we play GOTM 25 I highly doubt I could hold myself back from killing everyone and everything with the beautiful Mongol unit set :evil:

Ah yes, the Mongol Hordes. That would be a "special" game reserved for a "special" time. ;)

@mad-bax: sorry that I forgot to mention(!!!) your extremely good work on the map and the wonderful feeling that we got when we realised that the city improvements had Roman names!!!(or that would be cracker's finger? - if so, thanks to both).

Another pleasant surprise: the barb units that had the team's name!! Very unique!

Nice one KB! Stupid greedy Japs brought about their own end!

This game has been a fantastic warmongering training ground for me.... all of you have helped me improve my game.

The only vic condition I haven't achieved is conquest and we were very close to it. Oh well there's always the next time!

Right I'm off to congratulate Team Mauer... (fellow training game buddies)

@mad-bax: sorry that I forgot to mention(!!!) your extremely good work on the map and the wonderful feeling that we got when we realised that the city improvements had Roman names!!!(or that would be cracker's finger? - if so, thanks to both).


Although I made changes to the map, the scenario is crackers work. He did a wonderful job on this and all his other GOTM scenarios. It is a standard I aspire to but will be unlikely to acheive.

@Mad-Bax

Although you can't take full credit for the map, I do have to say swapping the continents and civs around was quite an ingenious way to make it not as predictable for those who played it before. Also makig the start nearly identical was a nice touch. Overall, great job, your work is very much appreciated :goodjob:

Also, I'd like to compliment my fellow teammates. It was a joy to play with all of you, and this has by far been my favorite SG yet.

@Ivan- I learned some things I never knew from you, and as a result my overall gameplay will certainly improve.

@mabellino & Zab- I feel both of you really improved over the course of the game, and we couldn't have done as well as we did without your efforts. Way to go :clap:

@KA- I think you've shown the most improvement, as I've played with you in HG3 and now this game. I now firmly believe you're at or around the same level as myself. I have to say you're one of my favorite SG teammates that I've had. You always seem to strategize well and play to the best of your ability. I think this was examplified by your stunningly quick destruction of Greece. Quite impressive, bringing your home country to it's knees :lol:

All in all, I think our team has gotten quite stronger over the course of this game, and provided the RNG is a little more fair to us, the top few teams should have something to fear next time around ;)

Thank you all. I had a great time. I did learn alot and I hope to see you all in the next sgotm.

Maybe then Washington will fall the first time, not the 4th :-)

@KA- I think you've shown the most improvement, as I've played with you in HG3 and now this game.
I now firmly believe you're at or around the same level as myself. I have to say you're one of my favorite SG teammates that I've had.

Thanks for your compliments!
To be honest, I don't believe that I'm at the same level as your Majesty :worship: .
My experience in high difficulty levels, is not enough.

I'm also glad to had you as a teammate, again; I've learned a lot from you :goodjob: Maybe we'll be teammates again in another SG.

You always seem to strategize well and play to the best of your ability.
I think this was examplified by your stunningly quick destruction of Greece.
Quite impressive, bringing your home country to it's knees :lol:

I can explain that: Don't forget that I know Greece's weaknesses! :D :satan:

Thanks for the compliments too KB. I still can't believe we finished so early... that's genius planning again!

So who's going to write up our spoiler? I think Alex would be good for a story/humorous style write up, that post about the lack of leaders still makes me laugh!

I think we should try and keep it brief and just include things like leaders, date civs were eliminated and our thoughts on why we made some of our decisions.

Yeah 3rd place (so far!) :goodjob:

@mabellino: thanks for you proposal :worship:
I'll need a bit time though, and maybe a few hints(I've never written a spoiler :eek: )
Don't forget that English is not my first language :crazyeye:
Maybe I'll lurk around to see how spoilers are written :evil: :cooool:

btw: where is Ceacar Ivan? We haven't heard of our Emperor for a while.

Congratulation everybody. Unfortunately got lot of trubles and did not play civ at all...
Thanks everybody for good play.
Regards, Ivan

What???? you're obviously not a true fanatic! ;)
I think I am true fanatic, but real life is so awful that kick my @$$ so strong... [Lost job, have to leave country suddenly...]. Hope things will getting better soon. I will write more about our game when will have time.
Ivan.

Sorry to hear that Ivan; I hope you find another job real quickly.

I unfortunately have to read for my exams during this month(I had almost forgotten it with the excitement of the Olympics!), so I don't know when I'll write the spoiler.

@Ivan
You poor thing... hope things work out well for you.

@Alex
If you're too busy then we can all write it between us... shouldn't be a problem

@Team
Guys it's been fantastic playing with you all but I won't be able to play the next SGOTM due to real life committments.. (I've just bought my first house and will be relocating 200miles... need to find a new job too!)
I'll be a lurker in the team thread though!

Hey team, with the announcement of the next SGOTM, I thought I'd see what you all are thinking. I would like to try the 5CC variant, as those are always lots of fun. I'm also leaning towards playing this one in PTW, as I really have no desire to download all the mods required for the Vanilla version. Are you guys willing to play PTW? I'd enjoy staying with the team, but if we have to stay vanilla, I'm not sure.

Unfortunately I don't know, K-B. My monitor at home has problems, and I can't see very clearly what is shows :mad: I'll take it somewhere, but I don't know if it'll be back on time.

Also, I'm going to have my exams by the end of the month.

If I could play, I'd also prefer PTW just for avoiding the many mod-installations.

I'll notice the team if I can make it on time.

I formally sign in, but not sure yet that all will work.
Move to Russia again for cheaper unemployment.
As I recon it is difficult to be a real team leader at this circumstaces.
Will see.