SGOTM3 Rome - Game Thread.

Hi everyone, and welcome to your game thread.

Here is the start position.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SGOTM3.jpg

Here are a couple of links you might find useful.

The Original GOTM16 Announcement. (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/gotm16_rome.shtml)
The Draft Constitution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=1733966&postcount=61)

This Months' sponsored variant is Xenophobic NOW
The rules are as follows.
1. Non-Oscillating War variant. You keep a list of opponents and the order in which you meet them.
2. You must declare war on the first Civ you meet before leaving the diplomacy screen for the first time.
3. You must stay at war with that Civ until one of you have been eliminated.
4. You must declare war on the second Civ you met on the same turn that the first Civ was eliminated or 20 turns has elapsed (whichever happens sooner). This is to prevent sandbagging.
5. After each opponent is eliminated or 20 turns elapse you must declare war on the next civ in the list.
6. If you run out of opponents because you haven't met them yet and 20 turns have elapsed, you must declare war on the next opponent you meet before leaving the diplomacy screen for the first time with them

The Xenophobic part of the variant runs as follows.
7. You may never own a foreign worker. You must never buy or sell one, and if you capture them they must be disbanded on the tile on which they were captured.
8. All deals must be at face value. No haggling.
9. You will not establish embassies.
10. You will never retain a town that contains foreign citizens. Such towns must be razed and any workers spawned disbanded.

Also there is a puzzle involving some non-standard Barbarian Units. The puzzle is framed in the same way as it was for the original GOTM16, but the solution is different.

The save will be available from >>HERE<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm_submission_list.php) when the timelock is released. All of your teams save files will eventually be available from this link.

When you finish your turn, you may upload your save to >>THIS<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/sgotm.php) link

Have fun, and good luck everyone!

Checking in.

Checking in.
Me to.
The order of playing
I. Larkin (Ivan)
K. Alexander (Alex)
Mabellino (Mabellino)
K. Berger (Berg, or K-B what you prefer?)
Z. Milenko. (Zab)
Is it OK? I mean play order and Nicknames?

I think the order looks good, and I'm good with either nickname. Whatever is easiest for everyone :D

Checking in. Zab is what I go by.

How many turns do we play before uploading the save?

Can we talk about our movements here and/or suggest to other players?

Should there be another place out there to talk about this stuff? (My company has a forum site that can donate room).

I am new to this so until I fall into the game routine I may have lots of questions.

Zab: you can discuss whatever you like in this thread. It is yours. The forum rules apply of course, but you can discuss any aspects of the game you like. This is the whole point really :)

I'm here
glad not to be first this time!!!

does anyone want to do a quick round of introductions before we start?

I'll go first

My name is mabellino and I'm a civaholic
I live in the UK (no really!) and work as a research chemist. I've been playing civ since civ1 but have only just made the jump to monarch. I prefer builder games but Ivan and co taught me the "art of war" in SGOTM2 and together we achieved my first military victory.
I'm also female by the way and am getting married next May.
Myself, Ivan and King Alex played together on SGOTM2 and thanks to Ivan's foresight managed a good victory.

You can call me mabel if mabellino is too long to type!

Ok. Following Mabel's lead...

My name is Zab and I live in Southern Oregon (USA). I own a small software company and married to a wonderful woman. I started playing Civ1 and Col years ago.

I am expanionistic and scientific so I almost always play the Russians.

My all time most overused unit is the Phalanx (Spearman), followed closely by Crusader (civ2).

My normal favorite tech order is Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Masonry, then goal-set to Monarchy.

I prefer space race victory, but also like to win by sheer score alone.

My biggest pet-peeve in Civ3 is the darned AI will not declare war with each other pre-emptively.

Guys: I have a concern with the 1.29f saves. On my computer and on Alanhs computer the Roman Leader is named Temujin and not Caesar. :p

The reason I am concerned about this is that in the bic it is correct. I feel I need to investigate this and correct it since it may affect all the leader names, and may conceivably be the cause of game crashes later in the game.

I would ask that you delay starting the game until this evening when I have checked everything out and am satisfied with the result.

I apologise for the inconvenience.

Guys: I have a concern with the 1.29f saves. On my computer and on Alanhs computer the Roman Leader is named Temujin and not Caesar. :p


I'm sure Caesar is tossing in his grave this very moment. :lol:


As my fellow teammates have done so far, I'll also introduce myself. I'm Kaiser_Berger, but Kaiser or KB or any other contraction will do just fine. I'm a 19 year old college student from central Wisconsin. I attend the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point and plan on becoming a history teacher (I have to have justification to play civ at work, after all :lol: )

As far as Civ goes, I got started playing civ II, and have been hooked on civ III for over two years. I'm a deity level player, as I have several wins at the level. Two or three diplo, once space race, and my most recent, a harrowing domination victory as the Portguese.

I guess I prefer builder games to military, but it depends largely on my mood. So, I'm open to whatever victory plans you all have planned for this one. All I know is that when I played this GOTM when it first came out, I won the space race in like 1860. I look to improve upon that by a great amount.

Whew, I think I've gotten a bit longwinded there, so I'll wrap this up by saying that this looks liek its going to be lots of fun, and I'm looking forward to playing with you all. :)

Seeing as I have nothing else to do at 5 in the morning, I figured I could get us started on some strategy talk before we get playing. Ivan and I have discussed some general strategies to start, i.e. 40 turn writing gambit, early Republic, mass upgrade to legions. Most of those are pretty standard for this situation, I think.

One thing I've been pondering is moving our worker south to the hill to reveal a bit more terrain before we settle. We already know we have the game, but there is always the chance that we could have more bonus food to the southwest. I think it's worth a worker move to find out. If the worker finds nothing, we can settler on the spot, but if he finds something, we can move accordingly. With another bonus food, Rome could become a settler factory, provided we can acquire pottery from some nearby "friends".

Any other suggestions?

One thing I've been pondering is moving our worker south to the hill to reveal a bit more terrain before we settle. We already know we have the game, but there is always the chance that we could have more bonus food to the southwest. I think it's worth a worker move to find out. If the worker finds nothing, we can settler on the spot, but if he finds something, we can move accordingly. With another bonus food, Rome could become a settler factory, provided we can acquire pottery from some nearby "friends".

Any other suggestions?

I like this idea but feel it may be a waste of a worker turn as we can already see a lot of terrain in the opening SS. My first impulse was to settle in place and get the worker mining the BG to the west then a forest chop/irrigate on the game tile. (wondering if pausing to road will be worthwile??) This is emporer right? that means 1 content citizen? So we'll need a warrior for MP until we get the wines hooked up. If we get pottery soon enough the forest chop can go towards a granary, but knowing M-B goody huts and delayed contact with civs will mean we get pottery too late for this to be effective!

BTW it's not exactly 5am here... I'm at work now! What are you doing still up at 5am?

The thing that sparks me as a good move is the settler one space west. That way we get a good surrounding of grasslands in the immediate vicinity of Rome. It would be painful early on to settle on the hills.

Not to mention the shield bonus for that particular tile and the early proximity to the game.

Here is my pbrushed conception of what may be behind the fog. (I know, darned fogreaders).

Good worker-scouting would be either south or east. South is a better plan if we move the settler west. East is better if we keep the settler in the starting spot. We know that west is really tempting. The only downside to moving the settler west is you will lose the grapes. Culture, however, will take care of that.

EDIT: The two grass tiles on the southeast side are supposed to be grass+river

Hello, everybody! Checking in.

You can call me Alex or K_A. I live in Greece in Thessaloniki(I gave the name to the city to honor my sister :king: , j/k) and I am a piano teacher. Currently I'm working for the coast guard for some time.

I definetly move my worker in my own epic games, to reveal more land.
K-B, you probably mean the hill crossing the river(s-w), right? It's a gamble, we'll settle 1 turn later and the worker will lose 2 turns, but it might pay off if there's a cattle or wheat nearby.

Seeing as I have nothing else to do at 5 in the morning, I figured I could get us started on some strategy talk before we get playing. Ivan and I have discussed some general strategies to start, i.e. 40 turn writing gambit, early Republic, mass upgrade to legions. Most of those are pretty standard for this situation, I think.

One thing I've been pondering is moving our worker south to the hill to reveal a bit more terrain before we settle. We already know we have the game, but there is always the chance that we could have more bonus food to the southwest. I think it's worth a worker move to find out. If the worker finds nothing, we can settler on the spot, but if he finds something, we can move accordingly. With another bonus food, Rome could become a settler factory, provided we can acquire pottery from some nearby "friends".

Any other suggestions?
I think there is no reason to find better place for Rome, It is good (I never had better.) It is 3BG with river (extra gold), nearby vine, Game, hill position.
It is not SF, however, but we can find it later or live without it. (As we manage at SGOTM1, 2). I will post later about myself and more detailed thoughts.
Ivan.

The 1.29f saves are fixed and uploaded. The last part of the save name is now _02.SAV

My apologies for any inconvenience caused.

My plan for 20 turns:
Settle on spot and road, mine west BG.
Build order warrior (5), warrior (10) warrior (12), warrior (14) Settler (20).
Worker: BG (1-10), road vine (16), what to do next???
Scouting warriors:
1) west-west north...
2) west south
3) east south
4) east north.
Research: 40 turns writing.

I know we'll lose a turn or two by moving the worker, but it wouldn't be too bad if after it moved south it moved west right onto the BG. But, if the team feels like we should stay put, that has advantages too. If we moved SW most all units coming out of Rome would have to cross a river, slowing our progression down a bit.

I still vote for scouting south with the worker and then either staying put or moving SW or S depending on if we find something interesting.

Don't get me wrong, this is a great start position. From where the settler stands we could run a 6-turn warrior/settler factory. That would actually work great with our plans to have an upgrade to Legions.

Well, if we were to move our worker to the south hills, I'd prefer to the wine's hill. That way we'd see more of the map, and the worker can road the wines asap so he doesn't lose any turns and even if the settler had to move to the opposite direction, the wines would be roaded after the border expansion.

If not, I'd go to the BG east, road + mine and then road the wines(as Ivan said). We'll going to mine all the BG's and irrigate the grassland, right? With the current position, we'll have 5BG's after the border expansion.

Does anyone know where we stand on the map?

Well, if we were to move our worker to the south hills, I'd prefer to the wine's hill. That way we'd see more of the map, and the worker can road the wines asap so he doesn't lose any turns and even if the settler had to move to the opposite direction, the wines would be roaded after the border expansion.

If not, I'd go to the BG east, road + mine and then road the wines(as Ivan said). We'll going to mine all the BG's and irrigate the grassland, right? With the current position, we'll have 5BG's after the border expansion.

Does anyone know where we stand on the map?
At despotism there is no use of GL irrigation, but we have plenty of BG, also vine hill can be mined. It is also good to cut forest at Game and irrigate, but I have no idea what this 10 shields may be used for.
BTW, if we build second City that can work on Games, where shields will go?

I think I wil play 10-12 turns now and discuss what to do next.
Ivan

The shields will go to the city whose citizen is working the tile. IF neither city, then closest civ distance, if equal then earliest in city order (order you get from cycling through cities in city view).

I think if we can manage to get pottery sometime soon, the forest chop would be well suited for speeding up a granary. I would concentrate on working the BG first. Roading the wine really doesn't have to be a high priority right now, as we can keep Rome happy with the lux slider. And yes, the only irrigation we'll want to do on grassland is of the Game tile or any other food bonus tiles (i.e. cattle, wines, wheat).

As for our position on the map, I think I recall that we're in the western and sourthern hemispheres, so I think most of our expansion will be north. The again, I'm not quite sure, as it's been a year and a half since I played this game. All I can remember for sure is that the map is very unique.

I think if we can manage to get pottery sometime soon, the forest chop would be well suited for speeding up a granary. I would concentrate on working the BG first. Roading the wine really doesn't have to be a high priority right now, as we can keep Rome happy with the lux slider. And yes, the only irrigation we'll want to do on grassland is of the Game tile or any other food bonus tiles (i.e. cattle, wines, wheat).

As for our position on the map, I think I recall that we're in the western and sourthern hemispheres, so I think most of our expansion will be north. The again, I'm not quite sure, as it's been a year and a half since I played this game. All I can remember for sure is that the map is very unique.
I roaded vine, however. When settler build-up we will have it is enough tiles to work on. Francly speaking I have no idea what to do next. Rome wil build barraks at turn 27, I can delay forest cut 1 turn to use shields for archer, say (Or I miscalculate?). I met Greeks, but no deal - BW is too expensive. What do you think about Setller Factory position? Will it work?

The shields will go to the city whose citizen is working the tile. IF neither city, then closest civ distance, if equal then earliest in city order (order you get from cycling through cities in city view).
Wrong. I tried this crakers recomendation couple times, and it looks that some other system used in Civ3.

Here is the save. I'll write turnlog

Ahhh, very interesting! This is quite different from the original. There was no oppenent in that direction, and now it appears we'll be pressured on two fronts.

I'm not sure if we can pull off a 4 turn factory at the proposed site, as it really depends on the amount of shields it can pull in. It would also have to be a size 4-6 factory as it won't be on fresh water, and I'm not sure if we can produce that many shields from that position. I think we can get several less potent settler factories going from that site and the wheat and cattle sites. None of them will have the shear power of a 4-turn factory, but we should still be able to expand at a decent pace.

Looks that SF is OK 6+8+7+9=30, we should mine second Game for that.
2BG+mined Game+ City itself=6, + mined GL (turn 3) =7, forest at turn 2 and 4 gives + 2 shields. Why we need fresh water?

20 turns:
Research: 40 turns writing (due 40)
1 Settle on spot and road (4), mine west (10) BG.
Build order: warrior (5), warrior (10) warrior (12), warrior (14)
Settler (20), Barracks due 27. (Spear next)
Worker: road, mine BG (1-10), road vine (17), cut forest (due turn 28.)
Scouting warriors:
1) west-west south currently at South area near Athenes
2) West-North. Spot spices cluster, then turn north.
3) East, south –east. Spot silk, moving north.
4) East, north. Met French at turn 18. (That means that Rome- Paris distance is about 20-25, may be shorter).
Greek warrior appears near east border of Rome at turn 11.
They were above BW and below WC. No deal (BW was too expensive).
Research: 40 turns writing (due 40)
Trade tech at turn 18:
Greek: BW for WC+36 gold (become much cheaper, when met French),
French was above Masonry and BW, also knows WC and Alphabet.
Bought French worker for 26 gold.
French and Greek met next turn. Greek got CB (from French?), French got from somewhere Pottery, CB, Wheel at turn 19. Obviously, they have contact with somebody else. Probably, they already at war with somebody, normally AI hide workers at Cities at war.
Short-term plan: Settle on BG next to forest (Veli?) and prepare to SF. May use “settler” as pre-build Granary (or Palace, but be careful with forest cut then). Rome is Military unit factory. I think before size 6 it does not need Granary. (It is not profitable in sense of overall shield balance). We may use “Granary” as Library pre-build.
Scouting: continue north, then return. South warrior may have a look at Athens and return home. Do not know what to write else. Not sure, that we allowed to purchase next French worker. RCB rules unclear about that. It is important to pick-up Pottery in good time, may be from Greek, or, from some French neighbors.

As everybody wrote more about him (her) self than in SGOTM2 I’ll do it as well.
Well, how to make this story short…
I am 45 years old, Russian born UK citizen working at Atlanta as research scientist (theoretical physics). Married, recently had 25 anniversary of this way of life.
Play Civ 1 since 92 and civ 3 since 2002. Try others similar games, bud did not like it.
In Civ 3 very much like mutual agreements like MAs associated with trade. Know some tricks (at least 3) how to make gpt deal, do not pay gpt and keep reputation clean. (Perfectly legal). Also like to apply Theor. Phys. methods (like variationnal calculus) to find optimal City locations and build orders. [Frankly speaking, now do it by eye better].
What else to write?
Play Chess. (Reasonably good, not master level, but PC computer only recently manage to beat me regulary). This way of thinking helps at civ somehow.
That’s it…

King Alex, you play next 10 turns. I hope you settle on spot SF? (actually no ?), it is clear for me, that it will work.
Probably we may delay with Pottery in your turns, but if you manage to meet somebody who give it for normal price you may do it. Longest time we can delay with Pottery is 17 turns from now. (As Palace prebuild, but it is not good. (Forest). Scout North. (All thre warriors). May be you find somebody.
Ask, If something unclear.
Regards, Ivan.

The presence of the Greeks so close bothers me, but as we are culturally linked I am not too concerned.


Here is a submitted map with my ideas on the way we should see it by the turn of the BC/AD clock. The white dots are what I believe are good city spots, though the peninsula spot could be moved depending on how the map looks later.

The peninsula and bay areas will be important later on. The large circle is where we should consider our "heart of control," ie: contains the most powerful and well defended cities. These 5 or 6 cities should be very difficult to break down and should have high amounts of culture and production. We should definately aim for the peninsula before the Greeks.

I agree with the settler factory location. After that, the peninsula. Then we should crescent out North and West to block the Greeks from encapsulating us. We do not want to be surrounded by them.

I think the fresh water concern comes from the fact that we need food for the 2-city-level penalty for settler production. Won't matter until republic, but when we are churning out a settler every 5 or 6 turns it will make a big difference.

The reason I mentioned the fresh water is that we can't really run a 5-7 settler factory without it. On the last turn, the city grows to size 7 for just an instant to allow the extra shields necessary for settler completion and to allow the city to only drop down to size 5 instead of 4. The city at the SF location won't be able to hit size 7 without an aqueduct, so we'll have to go with a 4-6 settler factory. Provided we have 3 BG in the city's radius once we get started, we should be able to pull it off. I figure the shield sequence will go like 6, 6, 8, 8 with us getting the extra two shields required when the city grows to size 5 and automatically works a forest for a turn. This, of course, is all assuming that city will have no corruption....even one shields worth and our whole plan for a 4 turn factory there is shot, although it would still function very well in getting settlers out.

@mad-bax or a mod: what's the deal with foreing workers? Are we allowed to purchase as many as we want after a certain date? I read the rules, but I can't find anything about it.

Since you are not playing the variant, you may trade workers as you wish, without restriction.

Since you are not playing the variant, you may trade workers as you wish, without restriction.
Thanks, mad-bax. You are always watching if everything is ok :goodjob:

EDIT: This is my "got it".

some good discussion here :)
I think the most important point is what to do with our settler. I like the second city as a farm idea and don't think we will have any corruption in it if we follow our broader plan of where to settle. Zab's map is very illustrative, but I can't see the peninsular he's talking about :cry: I'll have a look at the save when I get home to familiarise myself with our lands.

@Ivan
Nice turns... where did we meet the french? I might be being blind but couldn't work it out from your turn log....

I have a nice long weekend this week so will probably be able to play and post quite quickly as soon as Alex is finished.

Good luck Alex!

You see the coastline in the right-side of the smaller circle? It continues down by the "s" in "strategic peninsula." It's hard to see because I am using paintbrush to scale down the map size. If you look carefully you can see the hint of a coastline under my small circle, forming a peninsula.

I feel that this peninsula is strategic as in minimize the circumference of Greece's borders while adding to ours. Plus it can be heavily defended to draw fire from enemy attacks later on.

I should note that all coastal and borderland mountains should be fortified with a few defensive units later on. This draws lots of enemy fire BEFORE they get to the cities.

As I said before, I am an expansionistic/scientific player. Which means I focus alot on defensive tactics.

OK I've downloaded the save and unfortunately there is no peninsula :( The two coas tiles are a freshwater lake, which will be good for a city site but not so good for defense. I'll post a screenie of the area in a mo.

One question... what the heck is an armamentarium? I assume it means barracks but ???? I hope there won't be too many of these little easter eggs... my latin is pants, the only stuff I know comes from Harry Potter!

screenie: damned 10 character limit...

@mabellino: Rome's Emperor is Harry Potter and not Ceacar! His full name is Harry Veni Vidi Vici! (j/k!)

I think, we should get 3 cities to the south, south-east of Rome, so we have control of those mountains(we want definetly to have iron), and to give Greece little space to expand towards us. We should be careful to get those tasty spices at some time!

Enough said. I'll try to play tonight.

EDIT: Armamentarium is "barracks" in our game! The game has a few surprises!

My bad about the peninsula. It looked soooooo good.

Ditto on those mountains, Alex. I would like to have a buffer between Greece and the capital, but if we can't help it, then oh well.

Yes, Zab. I'd like next to expand towards Greece.
BTW: the luxuries have roman names! Collis vinum = wines, Silva Condimentum = spices, Silva Bombyx = silks!

mad-bax, you did your miracle again! GOOD JOB!!!

EDIT: I'll play soon.

I've just noticed that 'wealth' has been changed to 'opulentia' :lol: nice one M-B! (or Cracker, whoever did it originally?)
I also agree about the cities to the s and SE, anyone want to put together a dot map?... suppose I should have remembered to put the grid on 1st! :blush:

All the Latin names in the scenario are crackers. I take no credit for them whatsoever. The mystery barbarians and the general layout of the map are his. Once you are further into the game you will see the extent to which I dismantled his work, which I have to say, at the time was groundbreaking. He is a very clever guy, and I make no pretence that I could emulate him.

Can I get the current save so I can map it?

This settler will be used for Settler Factory City
Will see how thinks will develop and than think about locations of other Cities. Anyhow, next settler will be 25-35 turns from now. I think Greeks are weak in general and we will manage to remove them if they interfere with our settelment. The problems now is:
1) how to get pottery for resonable price asap,
2) Continue scouting
3) Build defence for core area.
4) Improve land for SF City.

Ok I've played with paintshop for a bit and have 2 suggestions... feel free to blow them away if you want!

The white spot marked '1' could be a second settler factory as it has a cow and floodplains. There are a few hills and forests around too so the shield count might be high enough as well. I haven't done any calculations yet as that's more Ivan's thing (hint hint!), and am just acting on my civ impulses!

The spot marked '2' has the wheat and will also help block the greeks. I'm not sure how tight a placement people want or even if you want to go for RCP (which I've never tried but am up for it!). I tend to favour OCP in my games as I can't stand tile overlap, but of course if we're planning another early dom win, then this won't matter cos we won't have hospitals :mischief:

M-B, what RCB rools says about workers?
I bought one from France and next turn another become available. Can we purche it?
Ivan

With GOTM rules you can buy as many workers as you like.

RBCiv rules have changed recently and you may not make ANY worker purchases before 1000BC. Before, the rule was just that you may not purchase the AI's LAST worker before 1000BC.
Sorry, miss this recent changes. Dose it mean that we broke RCB rules and will have 10% penalty? And other things like ship chaining will not increase penalty?

Ivan, Joan will trade Pottery for 12g + 4gpt, shall I accept the deal? We currently have 26g + 6gpt. Greece doesn't have pottery yet. Maybe I could sell them Pottery if I take the deal.

Rome will finish settler.

Have it make worker, spearman, worker, spearman, then move on to normal activity. As the 2nd worker is completed, wait one turn, then have it join city to pop-build the spearman. Saves a bunch of shields. It has to wait one turn or it will take two citizens. We only want it to take one!

Then have a scouting warrior or two return to rome/sf for extra defense until they get on their feet.

This is probably obvious, but we should override city names after Rome to represent what we are doing, ie Settler Factory, Defense Troops, Worker Drafting, etc.

92 total gold for pottery. I think it's worth it if we are +5 gold per turn. I wouldn't want to be losing.

mad-bax replied to me and said, since we don't go for variant, we can take as many workers as we want. Did I miss anything?

@Zab
The save is on the previous page (I think it's around post#30) and you might be able to get it from M-B's sig links if Ivan uploaded it.

On naming cities... please can we name one after each of us? In latin styleee? please!!! I suggest Mabellonica for mine!

Ivan, Joan will trade Pottery for 12g + 4gpt, shall I accept the deal? We currently have 26g + 6gpt. Greece doesn't have pottery yet. Maybe I could sell them Pottery if I take the deal.
If I play, I'd delay until the end of your turns. This deal will not gone.
You may build settler in SF City as Granary prebild.
AFAIK Greek have CB, this is useless tech.

Rome will finish settler.

Have it make worker, spearman, worker, spearman, then move on to normal activity. As the 2nd worker is completed, wait one turn, then have it join city to pop-build the spearman. Saves a bunch of shields. It has to wait one turn or it will take two citizens. We only want it to take one!

Then have a scouting warrior or two return to rome/sf for extra defense until they get on their feet.

This is probably obvious, but we should override city names after Rome to represent what we are doing, ie Settler Factory, Defense Troops, Worker Drafting, etc.
Please, no poprush in core Cities! It damege future badly.
Only in case of emergency. We are commercial civ and capital produce extra gold when grow.

>>SAVE<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_BC2550_01.SAV)

2950 BC (1)
I move the settler to the suggested spot.

2900 BC (2)
We have our 2nd city, Mabellonica! The worker goes to the forest, so Mabellonica gets the shields, and I begin with Armamentarium.
Joan will trade Pottery this turn, but I’ll wait.

2850 BC (3)
Nothing.

2800 BC (4)
More scouting.

2750 BC (5)
The same.

2710 BC??? (6)
I swear, it says 2710BC and not 2700BC… Cracker or mad-bax may be up to something…
Worker finishes road, begin mine on BG.

2670 BC (7)
Rome finishes Armamentarium, starts warrior. I forgot to say, we spoted were the French are 3 turns ago or so.
North warrior spots orange borders far to the north(English?).

2630 BC (8)
Rome finishes warrior(?) fortifies in the city, and starts another one.
Worker chops forest(shields go to Mabellonica), starts irrigating.

2590 BC (9)
We meet Liz. I’ll make the trade, let’s see who gives it cheaper.
Liz wants 42g, Joan 39g.
I give Joan 39g and buy Pottery.
I give Alex Pottery + 10g, for CB.

Mabellonica starts Granarium.

2550 BC (10)
Mabellonica grows next turn(1 content citizen) and Rome completes warrior. We should raise the lux a bit, until the new warrior goes to Mabellonica, so the city doesn’t revolt.

Maybe the 1 citizen at Mabellonica should work the game in forest for BEFORE it grows (as a pre-turn change from the next player), so we gain extra shields? Anyway, both citizens should work the games.

Ivan, make a plan for the next player on what to do with the workers.
Should we build a few spearmen, so that we have 1 in each city(safety)? Maybe from barbs?

We currently have 22g + 7gpt, Writing in 10.

EDIT: I may be confused over the year dates, but if it's normal, blame me! I never actually pay attention to the dates.

Nice turns Alex.
You miss French worker at preturn.
Where forest shields gone? I see, to Rome. (You lose 3 shields, thats OK).
If you build spear as I suggested, you'll lose 2.
Mabelino, send warrior from Rome to Mabellonoca for MP, I think we can build worker in Rome instead of warrior to cut forest and connect Mabelonika.

Ivan, the shields went to Mabellonica, because I had it's citizen working that tile.
Did I miss a French worker for sale at pre-turn?

EDIT: You're right! I am FOOL!!! I thought I'd checked everything before! I even looked every turn to see if someone has a worker for sale! What can I say? :blush:

Ivan, Rome could build a worker after 2-3 units every time, so we can improve the terrain fast, do you agree? Terrain improvement = money = power!

EDIT 2: Ivan, you're again right, for the shields, but I can't understand it. I had the citizen from Mabellonica working on thet tile and the shields went to Rome? I'm confused here. In other games, the shields go to the city working the tile.

Maybe we could plan a 2nd settler out of Rome after some turns, so we get us going faster? Mabellonica needs a bit time to be in full power. We should think of it.

Ok. This is my last huge map post.

Here you can see I have come up with a crude way of representing the tiles. There is no scheme to the A0 starting spot. Just thought it was far enough away from our core cities to talk about easily.

Now we can reference tiles like "2F" or something. Using this system, rome is at J9.

We're looking ok so far. If i have a bit of time later, I'll try to set up a dotmap. We also might want to consider switcing Rome to a granary, or at least starting one after the warrior. Two cities pumping out settlers is much better than one.

@Alex
Wow a city named in my honour! But I though we were going to call it Settler Factory?? anyway I'm not complaining! Nice turns BTW. Did you check our military strength against everyone?

@All
I'll be playing my turns on Fri afternoon (GMT+1) since I've managed to get the afternoon off work, hope this slight delay means we can get some more good discussion going (excuse my English!).

Has anyone checked F10 for a list of opponents yet? Does anyone else think it's an exploit? (I don't)

I look forward to seeing K-B's dot map, will you be using that RCP rings programmy whatsit? I also like the grid ref map posted above (Zab's), means no more long strings of N,N,N,N,E to describe a position :goodjob:

Are we going for a specific build style? It appears the higher scoring teams from last time went for RCP and sped up the tech pace, hopefully those teams playing the variant will be left behind mwah ha ha ha! :p

Ivan, the shields went to Mabellonica, because I had it's citizen working that tile.
Did I miss a French worker for sale at pre-turn?

EDIT: You're right! I am FOOL!!! I thought I'd checked everything before! I even looked every turn to see if someone has a worker for sale! What can I say? :blush:

Ivan, Rome could build a worker after 2-3 units every time, so we can improve the terrain fast, do you agree? Terrain improvement = money = power!

EDIT 2: Ivan, you're again right, for the shields, but I can't understand it. I had the citizen from Mabellonica working on thet tile and the shields went to Rome? I'm confused here. In other games, the shields go to the city working the tile.

May be we could plan a 2nd settler out of Rome after some turns, so we get us going faster? Mabellonica needs a bit time to be in full power. We should think of it.
Don' t blame you too much. This is wrong recomendation of Cracker and B-M about fores shields. We could do nothing about that.
I think 1 -2 workers is OK from Rome, but I'd like settlers from Mabelonica, even in non SF regime. Rome is our MU factory. I slightly concern about undefended core area.

We're looking ok so far. If i have a bit of time later, I'll try to set up a dotmap. We also might want to consider switcing Rome to a granary, or at least starting one after the warrior. Two cities pumping out settlers is much better than one.
Yes, please, I will prepare mine. Actually thing depend where Greek and French will settle.

@Alex
1) Wow a city named in my honour! But I though we were going to call it Settler Factory?? anyway I'm not complaining! Nice turns BTW. Did you check our military strength against everyone?

@All
2) I'll be playing my turns on Fri afternoon (GMT+1) since I've managed to get the afternoon off work, hope this slight delay means we can get some more good discussion going (excuse my English!).

3) Has anyone checked F10 for a list of opponents yet? Does anyone else think it's an exploit? (I don't)

4) I look forward to seeing K-B's dot map, will you be using that RCP rings programmy whatsit?
5) I also like the grid ref map posted above (Zab's), means no more long strings of N,N,N,N,E to describe a position :goodjob:

6) Are we going for a specific build style? It appears the higher scoring teams from last time went for RCP and sped up the tech pace, hopefully those teams playing the variant will be left behind mwah ha ha ha! :p
1) I thought it is M-Bax list. But name looks OK for me, we can change SF_Mabelonica...
2) I am leaving 6 pm (GMT-5), so if you submit save at 6-7 pm GMT it will be OK. Do not trade any tech in your turns, you will get wrting at turn 10, it is important to decide what we whant to get for writing and what contacts we should trade.
3)I checked, but nothing interesting.
4) Terrain is so compliclicated that RCP will not work good.
5) Zab, really usefull. I thought to introduse this chess-like notation... I think we should settel near fresh warter mainly, not in RCP style.

Here is my Dot map.
Looks ugly, but thats it.

Some comments to dot map.
O4 looks very close, but there is fish visible at large scale. I think we can build it first, to reduse prise of MU support. F12 actually on fresh water, may be second City to prevent Greek expansion. L14 as well. Also good to grab silk (A 10), (fresh water) and spiesies (P8). D1 and G4 also on fresh water, and important for military reason (conquest). Not sure, that french will not grab this land first.

I like all of your starting locations except for P8. I think that should be P9, only because Mabellonica is getting a bit crowded with O4 and Rome. Or am I missing something?

After seeing the competition, I am no longer thinking RCP is good either.

A10 and F12 are top priorities in my opinion.

I also agree that F12 should be our next city, and if we can grab A10(silks to trade). D1 and G4 comes close, for not letting the French expand towards us.

P8 has only 1 tile overlap witth Mabelonica. But I want to grab spisies before Library. F12 yes at deity I'd play this first. A10 is too remote. When we manage to have more Cities then MU/4 we may go there.

Mabellino, some more tips.
At preturn send warrior from Rome to your City.
Change Rome to worker. Send it cut forest near Mabelonica. When another worker finis road at L8 send him to help. Build road at L7, and then send woeker to cut forest at Game. (Actually it is K-B turns.)
I want Granary ASAP. At turn 1 set Mablonica on 2 gems. It will grow in 5 turns. Do not forget to increase Lux. Return South warrior home (via West, (O 15). There is nobody behind Greeks. Continue scout North. obviosly somebody behind French.
As I said, do not buy tech, (sure, If you meet somebody who agree sell IW for Alphabet +, it is OK but in general...). Buy workers if possible.
Tech priorities to buy change, in general: (actually for K-B) IW, Masonary, Wheel. In first approximation we do not need Mysticizm and HBR. Our next Tech will be Literature 90-100%, I hope.

We're looking ok so far. We also might want to consider switcing Rome to a granary, or at least starting one after the warrior. Two cities pumping out settlers is much better than one.
Difficult to say. Better to have two well separated centers for settlers. (To reduce travel time). Also, we have weak military in core, if two cities will bound to Granaries there is a big chance of "sneak attack". I'd rather build worker instead of warrior, to help improve SF fast, and build 2 spears in Rome. Then we may see. AI normally do not declare war if all Cities have spears, and do it if you have 3-4 warrior per City.

I'm still scared of the greeks. They tend to be real nasty around 1000bc-0ad

I'm still scared of the greeks. They tend to be real nasty around 1000bc-0ad
Yes, we should supress them "peacefully" at early stage of the game. E.g. do not sell them IW... It is very difficult to deal with Hoplits even with Legioners.

Here's a dotmap I've thrown together.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/KB_Dotmap.jpg

I've never really gone for RCP, as I think it's better just to place cities by the lay of the land. I only mapped out a few cities. The Red and Dark Blue are sites I think we should go for right away. They both have food bonuses and will be powerful cities in the future. Pink would probably be the next priority, and light blue will be a decent site too, although I think we might want to expand elswhere first. Once we have more info on the map, I'll try to piece together a more complete map.

Alos, I wouldn't worry too much about the Greeks. The chance that they're going to waltz in and try to take us out anytime soon is negligible....I hope :lol:

I agree for the red dot, although I think it should go to G13(on the forest), so we can expand more after the mountains without too much overlap. Red and blue dots, should build settlers(even without granaries), just to fill cities on south, south-east, and Pink dot should build workers. Rome can definetly build a worker after 2-3 units.

Despite the RCP, I like to be surrounded by my own cities, rather than having foreing borders to my capital.

Our targets to settle, should be towards Greeks and French(English are a bit far).

It'd be good if when we get Writing, we trade for IW, to see where the iron sources are, and try to take as many as we can(we leave someone without swordsmen!). That goes most for the Greeks if possible, because the Hoplite is very cheap unit that has the same stats as pikemen, and if they stay without iron, it'll be a little easier to take them out.

EDIT: I'm sure you all can negotiate good deals. I may try 10-15 times with "playing" with the gpt and g, to see how low will something be offered when I trade. I never accept the initial deal, that is.

@K-Berg.
I agree that your red dot (H13) better than my F12, but I disagree with others.
Blue dot will interfere with my L14 and I think L14 more important (Fresh water, block Greeks). Also, we should settle G4 ASAP to block nothern AI settelment. Your pink dot is too close. Alternative to my P8 (light blue) will not pick up spieceies straight after, but I can consider it together with colony on spiecies.

@K-Berg,
Actually settelment is remote future (SF: Granary-settler), what we have to decide now is build order in Rome.
I think it is Rome: worker (Mabell's preturn) Spear, spear, granary.
You think Rome: warrior, Granary, settler?
Also, I think we should supress Greeks somehow.
May be not to trade tech to them at all.

If we shun them, they will attack. Especially at emperor. Need to keep giving them territory map as gift to keep them happy. Territory Map is useless to AI.

If we shun them, they will attack. Especially at emperor. Need to keep giving them territory map as gift to keep them happy. Territory Map is useless to AI.
Yes, but what if they ask Tech?

There is always a "would you listen to our counter proposal" choice. Check that and offer them territory map for free. They will be fine for about 10 turns then they will try again.

I played a whole game on regent war-free by giving everyone free t-maps every 10 turns.

There is always a "would you listen to our counter proposal" choice. Check that and offer them territory map for free. They will be fine for about 10 turns then they will try again.

I played a whole game on regent war-free by giving everyone free t-maps every 10 turns.
If they pop up with demand, ther is no option "would you listen to our counter proposal".

Seriously? Hmm. Must be thinking of something else.

Then we should get into the habit of giving it to them every 7 or 8 turns. Better then them pre-emptively attacking a weaker city.

Seriously? Hmm. Must be thinking of something else.

Then we should get into the habit of giving it to them every 7 or 8 turns. Better then them pre-emptively attacking a weaker city.
On emperor it does not work.
AI may be polite to you and still sneak attack.
The only remedy is to have decent military and 1 spear in each city.

We can probably reduce the chance of Greece stabbing us in the backside if once we have writing we establish an embassy and get a RoP with them. This improve their attitude towards you a bit, and they seem less likely to sneak attack as it will trash their rep. This certainly doesn't totally prevent a sneak attack, but it helps.

@Ivan- Yeah, I suppose a few of my city sites are a bit close. I guess I'm used to deal with less space, plus I don't care too much about overlap. We should certainly go with what the team as a whole feels comfortable with.

I'm having a nightmare with this game. I thought you were playing the variant and posted innapropriately... sorry. :o

1) We can probably reduce the chance of Greece stabbing us in the backside if once we have writing we establish an embassy and get a RoP with them. This improve their attitude towards you a bit, and they seem less likely to sneak attack as it will trash their rep. This certainly doesn't totally prevent a sneak attack, but it helps.

2)@Ivan- Yeah, I suppose a few of my city sites are a bit close. I guess I'm used to deal with less space, plus I don't care too much about overlap. We should certainly go with what the team as a whole feels comfortable with.
1) I am not sure that RoP is good idea. If they want attack they will. RoP only help them. In our SGOTM2 English through out reputation.
After all war is not a disaster if we can defend ourself, it will cause war happines at least. At Deity I normally do MA in difficult war situation. France is a good partner vs Greeks.
2) I am care not about overlap but want to grab important strategical points at our continent looking forward to future wars.

@Zab: If the AI demands something that has no alternative to choose, give them what they want. You say "I'll give you what you want, this time" and not "we don't surrender to blackmail", because they'll declare.

It'll be good to sign RoP: the AI very rarely seems to brake it.

@Ivan and K-B: what have you decided about Rome? It's difficult to choose.
We certainly have Mabellonica that needs badly a second worker. I'm with Ivan's initial suggestion: worker, spear, spear, granary, but, I'd like to hear what K-B says.

@mabellino: don't forget to increase the lux; Mabellonica grows after you hit "enter" before you play your first turn, and also, check every turn to see if someone has a worker for sale.

@Zab: If the AI demands something that has no alternative to choose, give them what they want. You say "I'll give you what you want, this time" and not "we don't surrender to blackmail", because they'll declare.

1) It'll be good to sign RoP: the AI very rarely seems to brake it.

@Ivan and K-B: what have you decided about Rome? It's difficult to choose.
We certainly have Mabellonica that needs badly a second worker. I'm with Ivan's initial suggestion: worker, spear, spear, granary, but, I'd like to hear what K-B says.

@mabellino:
2) don't forget to increase the lux; Mabellonica grows after you hit "enter" before you play your first turn, and also, check every turn to see if someone has a worker for sale.
1)I strongly disagree with RoP. In my early Deity games I had this examples when horde of horses come to core with RoP and destroy everything. Emperor not Deity, but...
I think we simply should be ready to war and do not cave to demands. (I will not complain if somebody give TM+some gold it is his/her decision.)
2) it is not nessasery to increase lux now. Simply move warrior to Mabelonica at preturn, we need MP next turn.
In fact Mabelonica needs many workers, after Granary it can build it itself. Sure, buy workers if possible.

So it will be:

1) No caving to enemy demands unless the price does not give the enemy any significant lead.

2) Upon declaration of war, enlist assistance of another nation for MPP.

3) Mabellonica needs workers


I have never "bought" a worker. How does that work? I have always just taken them.

As far as Rome goes, I think getting a worker out would be good, but then go right for the granary. I don't think we really need to have that many spears right now. Then again, thats just my style of play. I'm much more likely to run the "farmer's gambit" then to have 2 defenders in each city.

I think getting RoP raped isn't something we really have to worry about at this point. We don't even have a huge road network yet, so it's not like the Greeks are going to be able to shift from their border to Rome in one turn. We'll still see them coming, if they do.

I am strongly against telling the AI to stuff it on demands this early. Getting into war right now is simply not worth it. Also, getting into an MA this early is also something I'm not crazy about. If we do end up in an unwanted war, I'd say just hold them off long enough to get peace again. If we sign an MA, we'll be tied to the war for twenty turns, and if things take a turn for the worse and we need peace badly, we'll have to trash our rep to get it. So, in the end, please just cave on the demands. I've been playing long enough to know that our egos can be our worst enemy in the early stages of the game. We might have to swallow our pride a bit at first, but rest assured, the Legions will have their revenge.

@K-B:I'm with you in not declaring so early.
As for your suggestion, of a worker and a granary, it could be a possible option; I've thought about it, and I don't think the AI will declare at this stage if we cave in demands, because it's busy trying to settle the land.

We could built many archers and some spears, and take a few French cities if they come near our cities, and get some cities for free(pop 2), without triggering our GA. We could even strike Greece and take 1-2 cities(those who'd be next to us), if we have 3-4 archers for every Hoplite, and then just defend until peace. It's not an impossible task. Legions will face pikemen or musketmen at size 6-10 cities, so, it'd be good to take a few cities, as the time goes. If we could have a horse resource, it should be easier.

@Ivan: What do you think if Rome would built a worker and a granary? We need only a settler out of Rome(2 at most, but I think 1 is enough), as Rome would build our units and pop out a worker some times, to help improve the land faster.
As for your suggestion about giving only TM + gold, that's what the AI wants. If we don't keep the techs for ourselves, and selling/trade them with all, nobody would just demand a tech(and get it for free, if we cave in).

The AI's will begin to build Great Wonders soon, so, they'll lose valuable shields and prepare the Wonders for us!

Anyway, Ivan has always a good plan to follow.

EDIT: I'll be away for the weekend.

The pyramids would be very nice to have...

Hi guys!
I've just finished my turns... nothing too exciting to report

Summary:
We've met the Babs and are about to meet the Russians.
We've discovered writing and only 1 other civ knows it too.
Granary in Mabellonica complete, settler farm almost up and running.
Score 129 (last place), leaders are English=151.

EDIT: forgot the >>>SAVE<<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_BC2070_01.SAV)

Preturn 2550BC
Change Rome to Worker, send warrior to Mabellonica.
Check for workers, none for sale

Turn 1 2510BC
Rome completes worker -> warrior in 4t, growth in 9.
Worker goes to forest ready to chop.
Warriors scout some more.
Increase lux tax to 30% to get happy face in mab. (eep!)

Turn 2 2470BC
Game irrigated -> build road
Start forest chop
Adjust lux tax to 20%, still content (phew!)
Scout some more

Turn 3 2430BC
zzzzz
just scouting, spot dark blue borders

Turn 4 2390BC
Contact Babylon (annoyed). We are up alphabet, they have masonry and wheel, no deal cos they're too stingy.
Decide to change prod in Rome to spear as laess wastage and southern warrior is on way home.

Turn 5 2350BC
zzzzzzzzz
worker completes road on game -> forest chop

Turn 6 2310BC
Mabellonica grows.
Everyone has IW
English have writing and coms with Russians, Germans and Americans
Rome builds spear -> spear in 7t

Turn 7 2190BC
Forest chopped, granary in 3t, grow in 4t :D
English still have monopoly on writing.

Turn 8 2150BC
Discover Writing -> lit in 38t at 80%,-1gpt. Lux tax needs to stay at 20% until Mabellonica is connected.
Decide not to build embassies as we are poor
Warrior spots brown borders near Ninevah

Turn 9 2110BC
Everyone has contact with Ger, Rus and Amer. Offer writing about, mainly get contact with Ger+gold, occasionally get offered masonry too. I didn't bother bartering with anyone, I'm sure we will get IW from this trade.
Mabellonica connected, drop lux tax to 10%, breaking even.
Greeks have founded a new city by our F12 spot grrrrr! :mad:

Turn 10 2070BC
Mabellonica completes granary ->warrior in 3, grow in 1
English are building the Oracle (fools!)
Do some more scouting, still haven't quite met the Russians.

I also checked for slaves every turn but there were none available

Thoughts
- Mabellonica will grow to pop4 next turn, watch for riots
- Rome will build 2nd spear next turn -> granary? then occasional worker?
- We will meet Russians next turn
- Trade writing asap for as much as we can get, other civs must be researching it too.
- Our military is weak against the greeks and average against everyone else.

Minimap:

I've had a few ides about city sites thanks to the Greek's spoiling our first plan!
The blue dot is on a river and will get the wheat on cutural expansion
(I've drawn in the Greek borders because it wasn't very clear when I resized the image)
The Red dot is next to the cows and will be a coastal city.

Good turns mabellino.

Unfortunately, we were unlucky with our initial plan.
I'd set Mabellonica to Armamentarium(barracks) in 5, instead of the warrior.
Rome could go for granary, after the spear. We need only a settler out of Rome, and then units and workers, IMHO. I'd also use the French worker to build roads around the BG's in Rome(or start a road towards our next city), so, we don't waste turns. I hope, someone will have a worker for sale, if we are lucky.

I'd trade Writing around, as those who don't have it yet, they'll get it from someone else soon. I don't want to fall way behind in techs. We need to know asap, where the iron sources are and where are the horses.

I'm up, but I think I'll wait until later tonight/tomorrow to play to hear what evryone says.

I'm thinking of putting Mabellonica onto a settler, as it we have good growth from it now. I'll definitely be trading writing around for all it's worth.

The red dot seems ok to me, but I think moving the blue dot one tile SW would be preferable so we can work the wheat ASAP.

Mabelonica needs workers. It is special City, no barracs ets. Only Settler and workers. Send spear from Rome for MP.
First of all forest must cut from Game. If 2.5 workers do mining it is the same as 2. Most efficient Roading is with 1.5 worker (.5=slave). I agree if K-B swich to Granary instead of spear, but scouting warriors should return home ASAP. (well, make contact with russians is OK). Actually K-B has to make most important move: trade our Writing in most efficient way: Thats why I put him at 4-th place. Mabelino's dots: red one should be shifted to fresh water. Light blue is my F12, it needs Library to pick up wheat.

Hi guys!
Turn 8 2150BC
Discover Writing -> lit in 38t at 80%,-1gpt. Lux tax needs to stay at 20% until Mabellonica is connected.

Can't understand this. At 40 turns Gambit You should get writing at turn 10. Did you miss some turns? Count again.

The pyramids would be very nice to have...
Sure. If somebody build it we will go at take this City, like in SGOTM2

Can't understand this. At 40 turns Gambit You should get writing at turn 10. Did you miss some turns? Count again.
I see: in your turnlog you miss 2270 and 2230 BC. Actually you played 12 turns.
Please be careful about this.

So, our next 2 cities would be on light blue and red dots? It's ok, if we can make it, before the Greeks. I suspect, Joan will start settling towards us folowing the river from north-east.

@Ivan: the French worker should be stop mining asap and begin roading towards our next city, or road the BG's around Rome(and let our workers mine them).

So, our next 2 cities would be on light blue and red dots? It's ok, if we can make it, before the Greeks. I suspect, Joan will start settling towards us folowing the river from north-east.

@Ivan: the French worker should be stop mining asap and begin roading towards our next city, or road the BG's around Rome(and let our workers mine them).
As I said, red dot should be shifted to fresh water. I recommend my L14, but K14 also possible.

I'm up, but I think I'll wait until later tonight/tomorrow to play to hear what evryone says.

I'm thinking of putting Mabellonica onto a settler, as it we have good growth from it now. I'll definitely be trading writing around for all it's worth.

The red dot seems ok to me, but I think moving the blue dot one tile SW would be preferable so we can work the wheat ASAP.
I reccomend worker in Mabelonica first, and then settler with help of forest cut at games. Send spear from Rome for MP, swich Rome to Granary (we already have 8 MU). Trade writng. I recomend to get all contacts at preturn and return scouting warriors home.
I am afraid it is my last post (I don't know, when I get connection to internet in Russia). Please after your turns write detailed instruction to Zab what to do.

12 turns? But I stopped after playing each one to write the turn log??? Unless my finger slipped twice???? I have no idea how that happened!
I was really careful not to just hit end turn repeatedly like I do in the AA in my SP games :blush: sorry guys... I'll play less next time :confused:

My red dot was placed there so we will have a coastal city sooner rather than later, an aqueduct is a small price to pay for a navy and sea trade.

@Ivan
Have a great holiday and don't drink too much vodka!

Everyone see the score graph so far?

As of 2150 (the last turn every team has played) we were ahead. Oblivion has played more turns, but the score curve is higher for us.

Now I'm nervous. I'm playing with some good players, so I will have to be extra careful...

@max-bax: I want to post an entire turn log on the net and leave a link here so we can reference it. Is their any rule against this? All other discussion will remain in the forums. Just our posted turnlogs.

Have a great time Ivan!

So, I'm in command now, eh? Hopefully I can manage not to run us into the ground :lol:


@mabellino- don't worry about a few extra turns taken, it's no problem. I doubt anyone here would get grumpy about missing out on two turns.

Worker then settler seems good for Mabellonica. I think I'll keep the red dot on the coast, as we'll want to get some galleys out at some point. A suicide mission or two will help us to get more contacts, plus there are some interesting discoveries to be made regarding the "regionally intense" barbarians.

EDIT- Indeed we the leaders for this point in the game. I think some other teams are getting bogged down by the variant. That certainly doesn't mean that we don't have ourselves a talented team here. I think we're going to turn some people's heads this game. Let's keep up the discussions and the good work overall :goodjob:

Actually, seeing as I've heard from everyone, I'll go and play now. Hopefully I'll have my turns up withing an hour or two.

Red dot = coastal city = good.

We will want to board our galleys with spearman maybe. At least if we land and get attacked we will have a much better chance of surviving than with warriors.

The Save (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_BC1625_01.SAV)


Preturn- I swap Mabellonica to worker and Rome to granary.

Alright. Here goes KB's massive trading extravaganza.

Buy contact w/Germans from England for 40g
Writing to France for IW, Contact w/America and 15g.
IW to America for Masonry and 6g.
Writing to Babylon for Mysticism and 4g
Mysticism and 22g to Russia for The Wheel
Writing to Russia for HBR and 22g
Writing to Greece for 82g.

I've had bigger trading sessions, but this one was some good fun. We're at tech parity, and we have "ferrum" within Rome's borders. We should delay hooking it up so we can build up a warrior force first, of course. Also, we have "Equinus" within Mabellonica's borders.

I also lower our research down to the minimum. At this point its much more profitable for us to gain 6gpt than to shave 2 turns off of literature.

IT- Germans are building the Oracle.

T1 2030 BC

I up the lux to kepp Mabellonica happy.

IT- Mabellonica-worker-settler

T2 1990

Nothing much. Lower lux.

IT- ZZZ

T3 1950

Not much. The Greeks have founded Corinth up by our silks.

IT- Nothing

T4 1910

Mabellonica grows, but due to extra income doesn't require additional lux tax.

IT- Greece comes calling, asking for 26g. I send him on his way with the gold. Little does he know that he'll be using that 26 g to pay the ferryman on the River Styx soon enough. :evil:

T5 1870

Not much. France now has Philosophy.

IT- I see a Hoplite and a warrior heading towards French borders. Could they be planning a sneak attack?

T6 1830

Again, not much.

IT- No sneak attack, apparently. They head pas the borders.

T7 1790

Not much. France now has Math as well, as do England and America.

IT- Mabellonica-settler-settler

T8 1750

Move settler towards its new home.

IT- Rome-granary-settler

T9 1725

Nothing new.

IT- nothing

T10 1700

Nada

I'm going to take two more turns to get our next city founded, hope no one minds.

IT- French are building the Oracle

T11 1675

Not much. Settler is nearly in place.
I notice that Germany now has Philo, so I get it from him for 120g.
I get Math from England for Philo, 36g and 1gpt.

IT- We have hooked up horses.

T12 1650

Not much

IT- ZZZ

T13 1625

I continue in our trend of honoring team members, and found Ivanorium. I set it to warrior.


Afterthoughts

We're looking alright, I'd say. England now has Map Making, but there are no deals currently available. We've got another city now, and we have two settlers due next turn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/KBSGOTM3-1.JPG

I've included the next two city sites I think we should settle. As for an overall game plan, I think we should probably build mostly settlers for now. I have to take a closer look at Mabellonica to see if it can pull off the 4-turn factory or not. We're also probablt going to want a city that can produce a sizeable amount of warriors for an upgrade.

EDIT: I just looked over the Mabellonica situation, and we can pull off the factory, provided that it is considered to be on the river there. If it isn't, we're out of luck. I'll give a detailed description of the way things should go down with the city tomorrow perhaps.

I guess I am up. I won't play until Saturday afternoon because I am interested to hear KB's findings.

Also, does everyone think it's profitable to road the ferrum? I also see the second ferrum north of Mabellonica and the equinus east of [Ivanarium???]. These may be nice to sell for other stuff. Everyone usually gets horses eventually, but if we can trade them for a tech or something then that would be useful.

Let me know.

Everyone see the score graph so far?

As of 2150 (the last turn every team has played) we were ahead. Oblivion has played more turns, but the score curve is higher for us.

Now I'm nervous. I'm playing with some good players, so I will have to be extra careful...

@max-bax: I want to post an entire turn log on the net and leave a link here so we can reference it. Is their any rule against this? All other discussion will remain in the forums. Just our posted turnlogs.

I the link to it is only accessible from inside the thread then I guess it's OK. My only worry is that the site you upload it to will expire before this one does, and we'll lose the history. But it's up to you.

The turnlogs and pictures should be availble for lurkers to view however.

Ok K-B, guide us wisely! I suppose, Rome will built the units to go with the settlers?

I have further looked at the Mabellonica situation, and I am sorry to say I have determined it is not on the river :( So, no 4-turn settler factory for us. Actually, if we had founded it one tile NE, we could probably have pulled off a 4-6 factory because Mabellonica is founded on a bonus grassland. This was a not so smart move on our parts, and I suppose I must claim a large amount of the responsibility as I didn't take the time to open the saves and just trusted the dot maps didn't cover any BG. As it is, we can't pull in enough shields from size 4-6 to produce a settler in 4 turns.

All is not lost, however! While we can't pull off a 4-turn factory, we can produce a 6-turn settler factory. This is even more of a micro managing mess than a 4-turn factory, but is a more efficient way for us to expand than just letting Mabellonica go and build settlers unchecked.

First, we will need to finish some terrain improvements around the city in preparation. Instead of trying to explain it in words, I'll let this image do the talking for me.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Mabellonica.JPG

Once we have all that done, we'll need to have Mabellonica at size 4 with no food in it's box to start (excluding whats in the granary, of course). The 6-turn factory require a food progression of 4-3-3 at size 4 and 4-3-3 at size 5. That means we need to produce 4 surplus food the first turn, three the second, and so on.

Here's a detailed progression of what we need to work to make this work.

Turn 1

Work the 2 BG, the horses tile, and the irrigated game tile.

Turn 2

Switch the irrigated game to the mined game tile.

Turn 3

No change required

Turn 4

Work the 2 BG, the horse tile, the irrigated game tile, and the non-mined grassland.

Turn 5

Switch the irrigated game tile to the mined game tile.

Turn 6

No change required.

After that, start the cycle over. It's a bit intimidating (I didn't understand it until recently myself), but it works nicely.

I would have Rome toss in settlers too, as we need every settler we can get at this point. We really need some more land before we start our military buildup.

I would also have Mabellonica produce another settler after this next one completes. After that I'm not sure. Just remember we need to have it at size four with no food in the box to start the 6 turn cycle.

EDIT-

@Zab- I think we should hold off hooking up our ferrum, as we can build up a warrior force to be upgraded for a strike against our first victim. That brings up another question, who is to be our first victim. My vote right now goes for France, as I don't think it would be prudent to try to slog through Greece with Legions vs. Hoplites. We should use our UU where it will be most effectivem and that to me seems to be in the north. Once we've taken out France, we then face the decisions of trying to prosecute another Legion war against another northern opponent, or start building some horses and research to chivalry and get knights so we can better deal with pikes/hoplites.

That actually birngs up another question to my mind-what victory do we want to pursue? If we can take out France and have our GA while in a Republic, I think we'll be on the fast track to any victory we want. We certainly don't have to decide this for a while, but it's something to ponder, I suppose.

It's far too early to discuss what kind of victory to pursue, but if I had to mention it I would say diplomatic victory. But it is still too early to tell.

I will wait on the ferrum.

I am concerned with how far the Mabellonica settler will have to travel to build, but I understand the importance. I'll be getting on it later.

Alright. Here goes KB's massive trading extravaganza.

Buy contact w/Germans from England for 40g
Writing to France for IW, Contact w/America and 15g.
IW to America for Masonry and 6g.
Writing to Babylon for Mysticism and 4g
Mysticism and 22g to Russia for The Wheel
Writing to Russia for HBR and 22g
Writing to Greece for 82g.


Wow! That was some trading! :goodjob:
I don't mean to be a spoilsport but we were winning early on last time (Team Ankka) and ended up trailing for the most part with a spectacular catch up (thanks Ivan!) to finish in 6th place. Let's not get complacent and make more mistakes... like me losing 2 turns (still have no idea how that happened!) or settling on BG's... but GO TEAM!!! :D

I'm going to print off the post about the 6 turn settler farm and memorise it!
What do you need for a settler/warrior farm?

For a settler warrior farm, we'd need more shields, I think. If we had another bg, we could probably pull it off...not sure though. I think I burnt myself out with figuring out the 6-turn factory :crazyeye:

Downloaded the sav to look at it.

Rome has 5 turns from a cultural expansion. Mabellonica is teetering on civil disorder (2 happy, 2 unhappy). Poor Ivanorium has a long way to go.

Coincidentally, Mabellonica is going to grow before producing settler. Nice touch.

One of the warriors looks as if he may get boxed in. I could try to push past without irritating our neighbors or I can continue using him for exploration. What does everyone think?

12 turns? But I stopped after playing each one to write the turn log??? Unless my finger slipped twice???? I have no idea how that happened!
I was really careful not to just hit end turn repeatedly like I do in the AA in my SP games :blush: sorry guys... I'll play less next time :confused:

My red dot was placed there so we will have a coastal city sooner rather than later, an aqueduct is a small price to pay for a navy and sea trade.

@Ivan
Have a great holiday and don't drink too much vodka!
I am affraid you acsidently clikc "Sun" at menu and simly skip 2 turns (loosing it). Check you mouse, please.
Or Shft+Enter gives the same effect.
I will check out price of Aqueduct against other bonuses and will make my decision about red dot.
P.S. I never drink vodka.

Ok, I' ll wait Zab' s turns and will play after him
I downloaded K-B's file, but have not looked at it yet.
Internet works at least.
Ivan

Buy contact w/Germans from England for 40g
Writing to France for IW, Contact w/America and 15g.
IW to America for Masonry and 6g.
Writing to Babylon for Mysticism and 4g
Mysticism and 22g to Russia for The Wheel
Writing to Russia for HBR and 22g
Writing to Greece for 82g.

I think you lose about 100 gold as a result of this trade.
Certanly, no use to give gold to England, you should start trade from
France. She could give Masanary+contact+some gold.
In fact we could get Literature faster then 38 turns, city will grow. Hope
King Alex will do next trade much better.
I am affraid that Zab will forget to ajust slider to keep minimum research
(As Ankka did) and delay will be even longer then 2 turns

Not much. Settler is nearly in place.
I notice that Germany now has Philo, so I get it from him for 120g.
I get Math from England for Philo, 36g and 1gpt.
We're looking alright, I'd say. England now has Map Making, but there are no deals currently available.
We've got another city now, and we have two settlers due next turn.

Again, not effective trade. Until we research Literature we do no need Phylosophy.
If you see good profitable combination you can trade in between research step. Otherwise
you simply loosing money and feed AI's future research.
Please, don't do it in future.
Contrastly to the Trade City planing and Build order and instruction to Zab is very good.

EDIT: I just looked over the Mabellonica situation, and we can pull off the factory,
provided that it is considered to be on the river there. If it isn't, we're out of luck.
I'll give a detailed description of the way things should go down with the city tomorrow perhaps.

I checked this tile, and you could do, It is not River tile and equivalent to place where Mabelonica now.
I think, however it is 4.5 - 6.5 size and 4 turns (8+7+9+8) settler factory.
Do no cut last forest and everything will be OK.
Regards, Ivan.

Red dot is found,
so no need to think abou alternatives.
Check my calculations of 4 turns settler factory.
I think we need 4 turns, not 6 as K-B propose.
Where are you?

Never fear. Zab is here. Starting now. I wish someone was logged in. Anyone use MSN messenger or IRC?

I'm here too.
How far into your turns are you Zab? I'm on msn at mabellino@hotmail.com if you have any burning questions... not that I'll be able to answer them correctly!
If you come across any trade ops or otherwise unexpected things then you can always halt play and post us an update.

t1 1600 Rome, Mabellonica complete settlers. Set M to another settler and R to a worker. I figure I am going to road Ivanorium so it can take advantage of the vinos. I am positioning the settlers using KB's suggestions. R settler will make a city in two turns. I see an American and Russian settler going for the same space.

t2 1575 Russia settles first, America retreats. Greek settlers by the Eastern coast. Yes, Ivan, checked the sliders. I am thinking of letting Invanorium build worker then spearman when their warrior is done. Two of our warriors are definately boxed in in the north. I could keep working them towards us but we risk wasting turns. Instead I am routing them to the east. Maybe they will find a barbarian.

t3 1550 Americans are building the pyramids. Settled Alexandreii at the pink dot and started a warrior. Since this is a high-risk city, I recommend moving one of the travelling warriors to garrison. Started mining east of Mabellonica per KB's recommendation. Greece went from polite to cautious. As a test, I gave them 5 gold as a "token of my goodwill" and it didn't move to polite. They are going to be annoyed soon.

t4 1525 Started mining nw mabellonica per KB. Moving warriors. One of them will make it home. I am going to leave one at the yet-unsettled-city nw of Rome and the other at Alexandreii. Ivanorium is still undefended for the next 3 turns and Alexandreii is growing slowly. Thinking of mining the wheat.

t5 1500 Rome's borders expand, produces worker. Changed to spearman, possible for Mabellonica, which produced another settler. Settled Kaiserium at blue dot per KB. Moving warriors.

Halfway point assessment: The only polite neighbor we have is France. If Russia/Germany/Babylon move any troops towards us they are very likely to attack. We have some under-defended cities. By the end of my turnset we will have 6 cities. I should note that after each turn, before clicking to the next one, I am checking all cities and all sliders and all neighbors for deals. Lizzy is still hording her map making. Other than that we are all at equals technologically.

t6 1475 Nothing much at this point. Moving the new settler towards the spices nw of mabellonica. This gives us the shorline south for two or three more cities later. Started roading to Alexandreii because I think it is more important at this point than Ivanorium, but that city is on my list. :-)

t7 1450 Ivanorium builds warrior. Because Ivan is taking over next round I switched it to Armamentium. You can change it if you feel it is necessary. America gets upset over a warrior in it's borders so they move it exactly where I wanted it to go and we save a turn in the process. Almost everyone has map making except us, Germany is cheapest, wanting 40g and 3gpt and world map. Greece are holding the cautious card.

t8 1425 Mabellonica is prepared per KB's suggestion. Waiting for it to cycle to 4/no food. I will let Ivan manage that one. Alexandreii makes warrior, switched to armamentarium. Still moving the warriors home.

t9 1400 Good news/Bad news. An Russian city disappeared off the map. Happened too fast and I barely had the corner of it on view. On this turn I put the warrior on a mountain (along my path anyway) and I see the greeks sitting on the old city square. So it begins. There is a worker I can nab if the greeks don't get to it first!

I hit a button once to many times and spread the workers a bit. They are all centered around Rome with the exception of one roading to the new city. By the way, settled Zabus on the coast wnw of Mabellonica. A better place would have been one space towards Mab, and it would have saved a turn. Sorry guys.

t10 1375 Started irrigating wheat next to Alexandreii. We need it to grow faster than it is if we are going to take advantage of anything later. Warrior complete in Kaiserium. Switched to armamentarium. One warrior is home. Waiting on another.

Afterword: Ivan is not going to be happy with the workers. Note I am trying to get two of them down to Ivanorium since that is going to be an important strategic city later. Two more around Alexandreii and two around Kaiserium. The one down below can head to Zabus. The roman spearman will help out in many places and we will have another settler in just a few turns.

I didn't buy map making because I can't justify spending 100 gold for it (40+3pt) and give up all our knowledge of the world. Ivan if you see a point in this go for it. Germans are cheapest. The sliders are still at 10%. Throughout the turns I found no reason to adjust them. Hope everyone is ok with this. I couldn't have done too bad because we aren't at war with anyone, the workers were productive, and we have 3 more cities.

Have fun Ivan.

Save:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_BC1375_01.SAV

A little present for everyone:

http://cawley.archives.nd.edu/cgi-bin/lookit.pl

I read turnlog, but can't open save.
I see text file about 1 kb size only.
Can anybody send it to me as ziped attachment to
vaniala2000@yahoo.com ?
Well, as I said we should try to get our warriors home.
I think we should not delay with Iron connection and upgrade
warriors just in case. Zab, who could destroy Russian City?
It is resonable to participate in war somehow.

Another thing usefull to do for education.
Tech trade is important on Emperor/Deity and I think we can do mini itra-team
competition.
Let everybody take K-B preturn and carry out trade: the goal is to get all AI's techs
and contacts and get as much as possible gold. K-B also can replay this and compare result.
Another bonuses is to give English and Greeks as less as possible and also do not let AIs to exchange Techs after your turn.
I very recomend to King Alex this exersize. He did very well with pottery (wait antill next contact), but he will have to trade our Literature for MMking and all other possible Techs+Maps+Gold.
I hope I'll get save somehow today and play tomorrow morning.
Regards, Ivan

You wondered who could get Russian city? It was the greeks. When they took it I saw them sitting on the title. They razed it, by the way.

Try this link:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_BC1375_01.SAV


I saved a valid 123kb using it. I could zip and email if I could only find it. It seems to have disappeared from my machine.

@Ivan: I can try to replay the turns to see what I'm going to gain with the trade.
I haven't yet opened the save to see our situation, and if I could see a screenshot it'd be useful.
I agree with Ivan's suggestion to connect the iron and upgrade the warriors. I'd like at some point to build a few horses: maybe they don't mean much as simple horsemen, but they can take 1-2 hp's out of a possible enemy and can retreat(very useful).

I think, it's time Rome to begin with our military(spears, legionaries, horses) to get our cities really defended(warriors won't do much if we get attacked) and Ivanorium could build armamentarium and help with our military(we need to improve it's land quickly). I really can't say more before I open the save, so maybe I'm wrong at my suggestions.

@Ivan: would it be good to establish embassies with the others when we have the money or wait for them to establish an embassy with us?

Try this link:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_BC1375_01.SAV


I saved a valid 123kb using it. I could zip and email if I could only find it. It seems to have disappeared from my machine.
I tried, but instead of download menue I see text file.
I copy it (123 k) and will see at my pc how it will work.

@Ivan
Try right clicking the link and select "save target as" that usually works for me.

Why are you not uploading the saves to the server?
The last save is 2550BC on the server.

Uploading the files in not just important for the scores. It also validated the saves to ensure that the correct software version has been used, and that the correct save was played from, as well as other things that are designed to make everyones life easier.

I am not sure why you are not using this facility. There should be no need at all to post links to the save game in this thread. :hmm:

@Ivan:
1)I can try to replay the turns to see what I'm going to gain with the trade.
2)I haven't yet opened the save to see our situation, and if I could see a screenshot it'd be useful.
3)I agree with Ivan's suggestion to connect the iron and upgrade the warriors. I'd like at some point to build a few horses: maybe they don't mean much as simple horsemen, but they can take 1-2 hp's out of a possible enemy and can retreat(very useful).

4)I think, it's time Rome to begin with our military(spears, legionaries, horses) to get our cities really defended(warriors won't do much if we get attacked) and Ivanorium could build armamentarium and help with our military(we need to improve it's land quickly). I really can't say more before I open the save, so maybe I'm wrong at my suggestions.

5)@Ivan: would it be good to establish embassies with the others when we have the money or wait for them to establish an embassy with us?
I have many options there, how to manage downloads.
5)Sure, we need some emassies.
I think our first war will be vs English in Alliance with Greeks. It will secure us vs Greeks. I am affraid we should be in GA at despotism. As I said, we should have 5-6 strong Cities + 3-4 Libraries (Bibliotec?). English too strong to gain something from them and main reason of this war is to make them (Eng and Greeks) weaker.
So embassy with Greeks. If Greek fight with russians we can make combiened Alliance.
4) Rome should Build military (warriors, horsmans) but also Lib.
We should not found AI's research. I will "prebuild" someting in Rome for Library.
Ivan-gorod needs workers.
3) Good. The key is moment of connection and war.
2) So am I. Pleas, some pictures.
1) Just Trade part of K-B preturn. You will more confident then.

Why are you not uploading the saves to the server?
The last save is 2550BC on the server.

Uploading the files in not just important for the scores. It also validated the saves to ensure that the correct software version has been used, and that the correct save was played from, as well as other things that are designed to make everyones life easier.

I am not sure why you are not using this facility. There should be no need at all to post links to the save game in this thread. :hmm:
I tried to upload my save (from Atlanta, BTW) but msg was "Invalid team name". I tried all variants and send E-Mail about this, but did not get any reply.

I have just uploaded the 1375BC save again to the server under your user name Ivan and it worked fine. I am genuinely confused.

BTW: who did you send the e-mail to?

Mad-bax: When I go to the server page, it tells me that the last upload is 1375.

EDIT: The links are just a shortcut to the file that was uploaded. It is recommended after we upload the file. We are actually given the link by the upload page.

I downloaded the game 3 times correctly from Oregon.

Zab: Yes you are correct. I was looking at the administrator version and hadn't refreshed it. I realised as soon as I downloaded the save from the thread which had the standardised file-name.

The situation remains however, that I can upload files using Ivans forum name and it identifies the save and the team and Ivan correctly and uploads the file.
Ivan is saying that when he does it himself he gets an error. I cannot see a reason for the error.

I know that I got an error the first time, because I was using the name "Ivan" because I thought that was what I had to use (team name). I had to use "ZabMilenko" though.

Ivan, did you attempt using the name "I. Larkin" exactly how it is displayed??

BTW: who did you send the e-mail to?
I don't remember.
I just click "send E-mail" after error msg...
Also I send PM to you. (Reading confirmed 07.14 2 AM)
But did not get reply. I understand, you are buisy person...

@Ivan
Try right clicking the link and select "save target as" that usually works for me.
I did, and it looks I got sensible file. I will open it soon and see result.
Treat it as "Got it"
Ivan

@Ivan: I eagerly await your assessments...

@Ivan: I eagerly await your assessments...
Difficult to say before see save. It looks that you did not finish Mabelonica improovment (Game forest cut) and go somwhere else...

I cut the forest and mined the game, per KB's screenshot.

Here are the before and afters:

@Ivan concerning my trades- I thought I did alright. I didn't think I made any frivelous trades. I generally try to look for oppurtunities to get 2fers, i.e. Civ A has writing, Civ B has Polytheism, I trade Civ A for writing and then use it to trade Civ B for poly. I guess that's my rule of thumb. I generally won't buy a tech unless I see an oppurtunity to trade it around or it's desperately needed, like Steam Power or something. I don't think the little bit of extra gold will assist them too much, but we shall see. If nothing else, it's just a little more of a challenge :D

I have many options there, how to manage downloads.
As I said, we should have 5-6 strong Cities + 3-4 Libraries (Bibliotec?)
By saying "Bibliotec", you mean in Greek? If so, it's "Βιβλιοθήκη" and with English characters is "Vivliothiki".

Btw, I always upload my saves, using Alan's surprise(the GOTM page), and I simply copy the link to the forum. I think, we all should using that way.

EDIT: Just to be sure, maybe I'll post before making any trades in my turns, so you can comment on that.

I took a look at the save, and I only have one major suggestion. We should switch Mabellonica from working the forest to working the mined game so it grows in 2 turns along with the production of the settler. We should also road the minded game tile. For some reason it doesn't have a road.

We need more workers. I think we should have Rome build mostly warriors now, but once it gets around pop 3 or four, have it pop out a settler or a couple workers. We should probably go for the settlers right now, as we have some more space to grab before our expansion phase is done.

Speaking of settling, here's a new and updated dotmap for everyone to sing praise of....or shoot down and stomp all over...whichever you prefer :p

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTM3KBdotmap.JPG

I apologize for the large size of the pic, as I'm too groggy to resze it :sleep:

@The dot you have sitting directly on the spice will probably have to be moved down one space because by the time you get a settler there France will have probably moved in on it too.

In my humble opinion, Ivanorium will be the first city to hit disorder.

Very soon some galleys are going to roll out and we will be behind on that. We are still a long way from finishing literature. If we turn Rome into a spearman/legionary factory we will get one every 3/4 turns. We could stock every city.

Alexandreii is going to be extremely productive IF you irrigate the wheat and the plain NW of the wheat.

P.S. I would move the green dot one space NW so we can take advantage of the pisces later.

Turnlog. As you see, I agree with K-B dotmap wit Zab's coorections.
In fact I played before I read this page.
0 1373 BC
Introduction.
Check Situation. F3 shows all armies strong vs ours. More the half above us
MMkng. Literacy slow and impossible to speed up. I rate this as "not good".
That means, that if things will go this way we will have problems in close future.
I don't want to blame somebody, as this is Emperor. The point is that we have to
make some hash movement to break tendency. First let's define local goal. It is war
with English in Alliance with Greeks. So City placement and Trade must somehow
take into account this goal. Another problem is defence against Greeks. Best remedy
is to make alliance vs Russians.
Preturn itself: (most difficult)
Production changes: All Cities: worker, Rome: archer, SF: settler.
Micromanage to better growth.
Trade, Embassies:
Embassy at Athen (Inscense(4), Galley (next turn) science 100% 2 defenders)
Trade
Greeks give TM+16g+MMking for MA vs Russians WM+2gpt
Americans TM+77g for WM
Embassy in Paris: Oracle (41 turns, 5spt, 3 food pt, 1 spices, 2 spear)
French give RoP+TM for WM
England: 57 g for WM
Greek 1 g for WM,
Babilon WM for TM
England: WM+2 for WM
Greek WM+8 for WM
Lux 0%, send warruor to SF from Rome.
Send warriors from Kaiseria to Zabus.
Press enter.
IBT Palace improved
Rome archer->warrior, Ivangorod: worker galley.
1 1350 BC
Worker: works Noth warriors: home.
Trade WM Amercans, Greek, English.
IBT
English build colosus, MaBSF: settler->settler.
2 1325 BC
Settler will go to K(-3) (spices claster, this is sea base to atack english) Germany have Lit,
English: CoL. Put Sci: 50% to buy Lit cheaper.
IBT: zzz
3 1300 BC Bismark bought CoL for Lit. Now it is 100 g +WM
decided to wait one turn to sell Lit to Greek fo higher price.
IBT
English demand TM+28g. After long thinking decided :"not surrender to blackmail" Her answer was:
"This is a big, cold world, Ivan.
You should do more to keep what few friends you have.
England will remember your uncooperativeness in the future."
So we stay in peace for a while.
German sell Literature to Greek for WM+44 gold (Grrrrr...)
4 1275 BC Nevertheless bought CoL from Germans for 208 g +WM
Lis offer 3 g cheaper, but I choose Bismark to make English economy
weaker. Sell CoL to Greeks for Lit+WM. 40 turns gambit for Republic.
(Swear to myself that it is the last in this game).
Desided to connect Iron. (due 1+6 turns)
5 1250 BC nothing interseting
IBT nothing
6 1225 BC MMng SF to grow 2 turns lux 10%
IBT englis build Oracle, star TGL (London). French offer WM for WM. Decline.
7 1200 BC trade WM
IBT SF settler->worker French cascade to Pyramid.
8 1175 BC lux to 0% MMng Ivangorod.
IBT ??
9 1150 BC Found Forpost. trade WM. (Bab, Ger, Am, Gr, Eng) Russian talk (Nothing)
All have WM.
10 1125 BCTrade wm, nothing interesting.
11 1100 BCTrade WM Russians, Germans and Greek have Poly. We can make
Peace treaty + Poly for WM, 89 + 1gpt. I prefer Lump sum at Peace treaty.

Don't forget to MMng Mabelonica to have 5+ food per turn.

Try to Upload file to Main tread and could not.
MSG is:
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Can't get a list of games
Please, anybody, do it.

Here is the save. Rename it, please and put to main thread.

@Ivan concerning my trades- I thought I did alright. I didn't think I made any frivelous trades. I generally try to look for oppurtunities to get 2fers, i.e. Civ A has writing, Civ B has Polytheism, I trade Civ A for writing and then use it to trade Civ B for poly. I guess that's my rule of thumb. I generally won't buy a tech unless I see an oppurtunity to trade it around or it's desperately needed, like Steam Power or something. I don't think the little bit of extra gold will assist them too much, but we shall see. If nothing else, it's just a little more of a challenge :D
I think your second round trade was resonable. I normally wait for better opportunity
but in my turns I paid more as a result of this waiting.
I concern about your first round. You could get the same result with more gold,
and give nothing to England.

P.S. I would move the green dot one space NW so we can take advantage of the pisces later.
I think violet dot must be on tundra. It will work on fish and later on BGs across the gulf.

I cut the forest and mined the game, per KB's screenshot.

Here are the before and afters:
You did OK, but forget road mined Game.
I miss this as well.

General plan: Perimeter Cities build Bibliotecs, Rome: Legioners,
Mabelonica: workers, settlers. It is not 4 turn SF, but with occaisional forest cut it is just what we need. Please, everybody mcmnage Mabelonica to have 5 food surplus every turn.
We should connect Forpost with core ASAP.

@King Alex
I forget to say in turnlog that treacheros Greeks make peace with Russians, so we can do it.
I think when we will have money to do it for
Poly it will be OK, or we can wait until Russian spear come to our border. Anyway, north warriors should return home. Better not to trig GA before Republic.
Now mabelonica builds Settler, the most difficult to decide when worker when settler.
It depend when forest shields will come to Mabelonica. Continue 40 turn gambit to Republic.

8 posts in a row is a lot Ivan. Perhaps you would consider editing previous posts to prevent this. Thanks.

I took a look at the save, and I only have one major suggestion.
1)We should switch Mabellonica from working the forest to working the mined game so it grows in 2 turns along with the production of the settler. We should also road the minded game tile. For some reason it doesn't have a road.

2)We need more workers.
3)I think we should have Rome build mostly warriors now,
4)but once it gets around pop 3 or four, have it pop out a settler or a couple workers.
5)We should probably go for the settlers right now, as we have some more space to grab before our expansion phase is done.

6) Speaking of settling, here's a new and updated dotmap for everyone to sing praise of.
1)Exactly. Allways 5 foog+
2) yes, though I did not read this I builded workers in all Cities.
3) did it as well. We have 10 now. (need 400 to upgrade, but will have it "soon")
4) Disagree. I think Rome should be size 5-6 in avarage (before Republic). We can build workers when it will give 10 spt. But Rome MU factory.
5) again disagree.
6) I settle Forpost at suggested place. Other dots are to tide.
What do you think about an Idea to settle near silk? 3 lux better, then 2...

8 posts in a row is a lot Ivan. Perhaps you would consider editing previous posts to prevent this. Thanks.
Sorry. My internet time is limited now. This is last post today.
BTW what msgs mean?

Getting some silks would be good.

BTW, I looked at the save you posted, and it's the 1375 BC save from before when you played. Is that the save you intended to post?

Here is the save. Rename it, please and put to main thread.
Ivan I've also d/l'd this and it is the 1375BC file... you can email the correct save to me and I'll upload it if you want, if you're still having problems
mabellino@hotmail.com (no spam to all you lurkers!)

The turn log seems good, do you want me to post some screen shots to illustrate?

Mab

Where will our next settler go(which dot I mean)? For the spices?

As for the save, you have my e-mail: feel free to send it to me or send it to mabellino.

So, we're still in war with Russia and Greeks made peace with them? I assume, if we try to also make peace with Russia, Greece will feel offended despite having gotten out of our alliance? What's the team's suggestion: Can I make peace with Russia when I have the chance or wait a while to see a Russian unit coming?

I'd say get peace whenever possible. Greece broke the deal, so they're not going to care one way or another about how we deal with Russia now.

I'm not sure as for our next city. I'm not exactly sure where our cities are now as I'll need to see the save first.

I missed alot. There seems to be a gap in posting, and turnlog is cryptic.

When did we go to war with greece and russia? During my turns greece attacked russia. Did they turn to us too?

I don't think we're at war with Greece. I think Ivan went and signed a MA with Greece against Russia, and thats why we're at war with them now. I'm really not quite sure why he did this, as the benefits just don't seem to outway the costs to me. I'm sure he had his reasons though.

1) I don't think we're at war with Greece. I think Ivan went and signed a MA with Greece against Russia, and thats why we're at war with them now.
2)I'm really not quite sure why he did this, as the benefits just don't seem to outway the costs to me. I'm sure he had his reasons though.
1)Exactly.
2)With MA we get MMking lot cheaper. (Almost for free, because Greek made
peace and we do not pay gpt now). Also, with peace deal with Russians we get Poly cheaper. I just want to pay lump sum, not gpt. (I think next turn will be OK).
King Alex, please. (Peace + Poly for some gold (about 100)).
3) I took a risk "not surrender to blackmail of English" because estimate that we can manage this war if we take France in Alliance vs English.
4) I settle two Cities near spicies. I think next settler (5 turns) will go to P12.
5) Sorry with all this inconvinience with files.
I have no Internet at home and can play at home only. It looks that I mixed saves.
I think I should have correct save at home. I'll bring it soon and send it to you.
Regards, Ivan.

Ahhh, well done on the MA. I must have missed the tech deal in there. If we get Poly in peace the Russians, thats quite a nice bonus.

here is correct save (I hope)

So, King Alex, next turn make Peace for Poly (try make the best).
In turns watch tech progress and deal the best as well.
Don't forget Mcmg Mabelonica 5+ food, and increase Lux when it grow size 5
Good luck.
Ivan

@Ivan: You said that I should settle at P12(which is right south of Veii, correct?). I'm asking this so I'd be sure where to settle. I'll wait for your responce, before I play my turns, because I thought we would go to fill the gap towards Forpost.

@King Alex.
Yes, I think P12 (on tundra, near fish) is the best next City. Next after might be B8 (silk) or/and I(J) 2.
Please build worker in Mabelonica after settler, otherwise you will loose forest shields.
Did you get correct file (1100 BC)?
Regards, Ivan

@Ivan: ok, thanks. I have the correct file.

I'll try to play this afternoon(GMT + 2).

EDIT: I'LL PLAY SOON.

Alex, are you playing now?

>>SAVE<< (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_BC0850_01.SAV)

1075 BC (1)
Call Cathy and offer Peace Treaty for Peace Treaty + WM + 14g + Polytheism(she wouldn’t give more gold: she offered 15g without WM). I accept.

Lincoln and Joan know Construction. I offer Joan: Poly + CoL +WM +28g for Construction.

1050 BC (2)
Nothing.

IBT
Greeks start Pyramids, Russians the GL.
Moscow completes the Pyramids.
America starts the Great Wall

1025 BC (3)
Nothing.

IBT
Greece starts the Colossus, France starts the Great Wall,

1000 BC (4)
Mabellonica completes settler ( is going to settle on tundra near Veii), starts worker.

IBT
America completes the Great Wall.

975 BC (5)
Worker action.

950 BC (6)
Mabellonica completes worker, starts settler.

925 BC (7)
Rome completes another Legionary, starts worker in 1, as it has pop5 and grows in 2.
More worker moves.

900 BC (8)
Some Micromanaging. Our warriors are returning to Rome to be upgraded.

875 BC (9)
Micromanage Mabellonica to make the settler as it’ll grow to pop 7, in 2 turns(currently pop6).
We find Antium on tundra tile.

IBT
Joan wants to renew our RoP, I’ll not bite.

850 BC (10)
Finally! The worker near Mabellonica, cuts the forest, and we have a settler 1 turn earlier.

Summary
We’re on tech lead. Decide if and when you’re going to trade(no one has enough money). I didn't trade to anyone else except France, because they hadn't enough money to pay for(and obviously, Joan[AI] thought in the same way, and didn't traded Construction around).

Greece doesn’t have Construction.
England doesn’t have Construction and Polytheism.
Russia doesn’t have Construction(and is the richest civ after us, with 41g).
America doesn’t have CoL, Literature and Polytheism.
Germany doesn’t have Construction.
Babylon doesn’t have Literature, Polytheism and Construction.
France doesn’t have Literature.

Ivanorium has pop4 and grows in 6: we could send 1 reg legionary there from Rome, so it remains without disorder: Ivanorium is a strong city and could help with our military, after it build an Armamentarium(after the library).
Rome could build another worker after the legionary, has pop5 and grows in 4. I say, whenever Rome comes near to have pop6, it can make a worker, so we can improve our terrain faster.

Ivan: 1 legionary/settler are next to Mabellonica. The team can decide where we’re going to settle next. We can grab some more land around our Empire.

EDIT: Watch Mabellonica: don't let the new citizens work the forest.

EDIT 2: I'm not able to upload a screenshot, sorry.

We're average against anyone's military, except Greece's(probably, they have enough Hoplites). Greece hasn't connected it's iron yet, so it hasn't any swordsmen.

As I said, Ivanorium(or Ivan-gorod, which one do you prefer, Ivan? We could rename the city, if you want) is a strong city. After the Bibliotheca, it could build an Armamentarium and help with our army, because Rome can't supply all the army we need(it could built mostly horsemen: we need enough of them).

We could squeeze 2 cities along Forpost and Caiserium, settle north-east of Caiserium(next of the French city), settle on the horse hill right east of Rome and we have some more land to take at south(south of Ivan-gorod).
Anyway, once we're finished settling, we should let Mabellonica build enough workers to connect our new cities and improve the terrain fast, and Rome can build a worker after 2 legionaries each time.

1 worker is on the hill north of Antium, and is going to connect the city. 2 more workers are west of Mabellonica: let them to road the tile they're in first, and then to connect the other coastal city and connect the spices, so we have 2 luxuries. 2 more workers are going to cut/irrigate the forest next to Caiserium, and help connect our future cities in the area.

The upgraded warrior(reg legionary) in Rome is good to go at Ivan-gorod as MP, and we could upgrade the other warrior and send him to Forpost(so we're not surprised from a sneak attack by the English: France's cities towards us are unconnected yet).

Ok, we shouldn't rush things: let's decide our plans first, as nobody stresses us to play immediatly.

Btw: I traded with France, because most of it's cities are underdeveloped and unconnected and they're not a serious threat yet(maybe, they'll never become a threat, if you know what I mean ;) ). We can take care of Greece a bit later with our knights :king:

EDIT: Btw: our team is ranked #4 at the moment.

I would say have the settler settle one tile northwest of where it is, I think. The spot I'm thinking of was the white dot on my dotmap.

We're strong compared to France, so I would target them. I think Rome should keep building Legions for a while, then perhaps switch over to horses once we have around 15-20 legions. We might be so lucky as to take out both France and England with our legions and horses. All the AI seem fairl weak, so we should be able to mop them up fairly well once we take one or two.

I think we should definitely wait to start a war until we've gotten the Republic, so our GA packs more of a punch.

I would also advocate sending a suicide galley or two off our west coast. Getting more contacts will open up many more trade possibilities.

i did not look at save yet, but I think our plans are war with English in Alliance with France. English will capture some French Cities and we take them. After war France will be very weak and we take the rest of France as well. The best time to declare war is 1-2 turns before Republic, to have GA througout Republic.

I would also advocate sending a suicide galley or two off our west coast. Getting more contacts will open up many more trade possibilities.
May be. But I think most efficient way of war is sudden landing near London.
For this we need as much galleys as possible. (Then we may think abou suicide mission).

France and Englad are both weak compared to us right now, so I can only imagine what it's going to be come 20 turns or so. The French are closer to us, so my vote goes for going to war with them first, and bring in England against them if we wish to. I think once we've finished the French, the English will hardly prove to be a threat. I think a straight out land invasion would work fine. I don't really see any need for us to try some fancy naval landing. Our galleys would be much better served earning us additional contacts and trade oppurtunities, IMHO.

1) France and Englad are both weak compared to us right now, so I can only imagine what it's going to be come 20 turns or so.
2)The French are closer to us, so my vote goes for going to war with them first, and bring in England against them if we wish to.
3) I think once we've finished the French, the English will hardly prove to be a threat. 4) I think a straight out land invasion would work fine. I don't really see any need for us to try some fancy naval landing.
5) Our galleys would be much better served earning us additional contacts and trade oppurtunities, IMHO.

6) As I said, Ivanorium is a strong city. After the Bibliotheca, it could build an Armamentarium and help with our army, because Rome can't supply all the army we need(it could built mostly horsemen: we need enough of them).

7) We could squeeze 2 cities along Forpost and Caiserium, settle north-east of Caiserium(next of the French city), settle on the horse hill right east of Rome and we have some more land to take at south(south of Ivan-gorod).

8)Anyway, once we're finished settling, we should let Mabellonica build enough workers to connect our new cities and improve the terrain fast, and Rome can build a worker after 2 legionaries each time.

1 worker is on the hill north of Antium, and is going to connect the city. 2 more workers are west of Mabellonica: let them to road the tile they're in first, and then to connect the other coastal city and connect the spices, so we have 2 luxuries. 2 more workers are going to cut/irrigate the forest next to Caiserium, and help connect our future cities in the area.

9)The upgraded warrior(reg legionary) in Rome is good to go at Ivan-gorod as MP, and we could upgrade the other warrior and send him to Forpost(so we're not surprised from a sneak attack by the English: France's cities towards us are unconnected yet).

Ok, we shouldn't rush things: let's decide our plans first, as nobody stresses us to play immediatly.

10) Btw: I traded with France, because most of it's cities are underdeveloped and weak. We can take care of Greece a bit later with our knights


1) It might happend earler, if we manage buy Republic.
2)-5) is very convinsing. I think this natural plan is better then mine. I never saw that almost all (at Deity - Imperor) was weak. (I thought we will be weak vs both, and in this case war with England woud be safer).
6) After Biblioteca Ivangorod needs harbor and Aqueduct, I think Rome is enough for military. Moreover at GA we will have Leg (Horse) per 2 turn.
7) Ok, but I think we should settle near silk ASAP. Probably at GA we well joined some workers to Cities.
8)OK, We need better arythmetics, we need worker every 5th turn in Rome.
9)Good plan.
10) Good thoughts as well.

@Mabellino. Try settle near Silk. May be Spear+Legeoner+Settler.
Think about war with France. Watch Tech trade for better deal.
Regards, Ivan

It seems that we're doing well so far.

@Ivan: I didn't traded Construction around, and we should be careful and watch how much gold civs have, so we can take a deal with them: don't forget that France and America know Construction, but they're waiting to sell it for a higher price.

I didn't traded Construction around, and we should be careful and watch how much gold civs have, so we can take a deal with them: don't forget that France and America know Construction, but they're waiting to sell it for a higher price.
Indeed, Tech situation is very complicated, Mabellino should watch each turn all civs to watch a best deal.
BTW, I have not seen her Got it. If she will not appear in 6 hours, I think K-B should play.
Regards, Ivan.

Indeed, I'll check back on here later today and if she hasn't posted, I'll pick it up.

Alright, I've got it. I'll play and post soon.

THE SAVE (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_BC0610_01.SAV)

Preturn- We look alright.

IT- Rome-legion-legion

T1 825

England now has the Republic. Polytheism, Construction, all our gold and all our gpt isn't enough to buy it. That looks like it'll have to wait.

Nothing much else new.

IT- Nothing

T2 800

Cumae founded. Set to worker.

IT- Ivanorium-Bibliotheca-Armamentarium
Germany complete the Great Library.

T3 775

We have spices hooked up. I sell Construction to Germany since he's going to get it from the G. Lib anyway. We get 37g and a world map.

IT- Rome-legion-worker

T4 750

Not much to report.

IT- Rome-worker-legion
Mabellonica-settler-settler
Veii-galley-galley

T5 730

I move the settler south to settle in our backyard.
I position the galley for a run into the unknown.

IT- Alexandreii-bibliotheca-armamentarium

T6 710

Our galley sallies forth into the unknown, and spots a coastline and the hint of a border!

IT- Ivanorium-arma-horseman
Kaiserium-bibliotheca-arma
Our galley sinks.

T7 690

Not much to report

IT- Rome-legion-horseman

T8 670

Fairly boring turns.

IT- zzz

T9 650

France and England have gone Medieval. They both are up currency and Republic on us. Germany also has the republic.
I decide to do a trade and try to get us the Republic so we can get into it and get to war with France before they get pikes. We trade WM and 330g to England for Currency.
We trade currency, 209g and 10gpt to Germany for the Republic.
Thankfully, Germany gets Monotheism as it's free tech.

I hit shift-g and overthrow our government. We get a painfully long 2 turns of anarchy :D

IT- zzz

T10 630

Nothin much. I'll take one more turn to get us through this and into Republic.

IT- Roman Republic is formed

T11 610

Not much. We're only able to make 15gpt at O% science. Also, I had to up our luxury tax to account for the lack of MP happiness. I suggest we scrounge up the money we need to upgrade a few more warriors and then head to France, as we need the GA income boost so we can get markets in our core cities.

Afterthoughts

We're still strong militarily, and I advocate getting our forces up to France soon. France is in Anarchy at the moment, so we should strike soon. We can probably get some extra gold from some of the others for our old techs so we can upgrade a few more warriors to bolster our forces.
The settler down in the tundra is ready to settle. I think we should have Veii keep producing galleys until we finally are successful with one. We onlt have to survive one turn at sea to make contact, wo it shouldn't take too long. After we make contact, then we should probably send another galley east around the bottom of the continent to check out the land to the east.

Good thinking on the trade, K-B.

For the war: Maybe we should settle 3 tiles west of Marseilles and get a road(only 1 tile, on desertous) towards Marseilles and Chatres, after that, our army could strike from the hill and mountain respectively.
Until we gather our force, the 2 French cities should have pop 2. so it won't be razed.

We could sign Greece and/or England if we want: Greece hasn't an iron resource yet(they need border expansion), and England hasn't an iron resource at all.

I think, we need to send a unit to the settler down at tundra, before we settle once more: undefended cities are tempting targets for the AI.

IMHO, we should make our single scientist to Antium: it's unconnected yet, and grows in 10. After Mabellonica completes the settler, we need 1-2 workers out of the town and build an Armamentarium and help with units. We have cities that could build a settler if we needed one.

I suggest to focus more on our military and improve our land in our core cities. We have the advantage with our legions, so, build a strong military and simply take foreing cities, instead of trying to settle every land spot.: I don't know what are the plans of the team: how many French cities are we targetting? Marseilles and Chatres sould be ours: we'll go for Paris and/or Tours, also?

I think, after France, Greece should be our next victim(it should be easier once we have knights, although, with enough legions we could take 2-3 cities easily): Corinth with it's 'Bombyx' looks tasty, Thermopylae and Pharsalos is right next to our door.

I think our next target after France should be England, seeing s they have no iron and are fairly weak. At that point then we should evaluate where we stand, and see if we can either push forward with what forces we have, or if we should fall back and build up and take out Greece. It makes sense to take out our opposition in the order that we run into them, such as going to France, then England, Babylon, and so forth. I don't like the fact that to take on Greece after France we'll have to drag our forces all the way back south first, then go all the way back north to continue. It could cost us some turns, which could be vital if we're going for a fast domination/conquest.

I think we should start war ASAP, preferably with alliance with Greek. (have not seen save, but...). What do you think about an idea to through out reputation? (I think it is too early).
Have not heard Zab opinion about war. How confident he is about that? (We may declare now, but start GA 4-5 turns later).

I'm back now, sorry about the silence but I've been ill and then went to my mum's and forgot the civ disc! :mad:
Good turns Alex and KB... I was reading the comments posted after Alex's turns and was a bit apprehensive of the trading round needed, thankfully KB did really well and took the worry away from me! I tend to avoid gpt trades, especially when a change of govt is imminent, but KB had it sewn up!
Please will someone post a screen shot and maybe a new dot map (if there's any space left!) so I can keep up with the discussion. Our car has broken down so I am currently stranded 200miles away from my civ disc :cry: and work :D
I'll post more when I've had time to look at the previous posts in more detail, just wanted to post a quick apology for being auto skipped. :blush:

I'd say we wait on the declaration until we have our troops up there. Perhaps the next set of turns should be used to prepare/strengthen our invasion force, and then the next player can execute the plan.

Edit- Here's a screen shot of our current situation.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SG3KB.JPG

I'd say we wait on the declaration until we have our troops up there. Perhaps the next set of turns should be used to prepare/strengthen our invasion force, and then the next player can execute the plan.


Disagree.
We should not loose temp and any turns now. We are at excelent position and must act quick (at preturn).
1) Renegotiate peace with English and Americans to take their gold. (120+60)
2)Declare war to France.
3)Make alliance with Greek vs France (To ensure our back). I think Currency is enough for that.
4)Increase research rate to get Feudalism soonner.
5) move troops forward...
Get GA as soon as possible...

I suppose your plan has merit. One thing is that we can't really increase our science, seeing as we're barely maintaining positive gpt with science at 0%. Otherwise, yes. I do suppose we can move our legions north asap.

Things have been happening quickly here. Following the posts are tedious.

Ok, I guess I will check out the situation and play tonight (Sunday) using some of the lessons as before.

Expect me to check every turn for good stuff.

This map was designed to send us to war. It is inevitable and I am ready for it. Greeks may try to go for rome or they may ignore it and hit Alexandreii or Ivanorium. We should make sure we have full embassies and get France on our side. Joan can be quite a ***** in war.


P.S. According to the screenshot, England is about to land and claim a piece of our pie. Get ready to war with them too.

I do not think Mab should stop making settlers. We should make six more and fortify them at port cities for when we get navigation.

@Zab: the plan is to strike France with the help of Greece(just to cover our backs)and not strike Greece: Do not declare on Greece and sign a MA with France against the first. I think, you got a bit confused by reading all the posts?

Wait a bit, maybe Ivan will post a detailed plan(he usually does so), otherwise K-B or I could describe the plan.

In general, Ivan said that we should sign a MA with Greece(currency would be enough, he said) against France, and move our troops at pre-turn.

EDIT: In fact, Ivan has posted a numbered plan in his previous post... In that post I was reffering :crazyeye:

EDIT 2: @K-B: The Greek cities aren't big enough in population, and that is in our advantage if we decided to strike them and take 2-3 cities, and then finishing them off (that is, after the war with France). Hoplite is like a Pikeman in stats, and later on they'll be harder to take, if their cities have more population. They do not have iron(and they'll won't have for some more time), so, they only have hoplites, archers and maybe a couple of horses. It's better to finish them off and move forward all the time, than having to worry about them all the time and take them in alliance with us.

Then again, I'm not at your level, so, I may be wrong. What Ivan thinks about whom we should go after France?

EDIT 3: Does anyone know when we're going to post in the first spoiler thread?

Since we will make an alliance with Greek vs France our war with France will be 20 turns.
Thats why I recommend declare war at preturn, before real war starts.
We should conduct war in Republican style (minimum losses, well defence: no French at our land) to avoid WW. We may finish war faster then 20 turns if Greeks will make peace with French.
As I said, we will renegotiate Peace Treaty with English and Americans at preturn, (Zab, do you know how to do this?) Important, to renegotiate first, before we declare war to France, we will get more money for that. That mean, we should stay in Peace with them 20 turns. The money we'll get after renegotiation will help us to increase our research. Also, at GA we will have bigger income. I agree, that Mabelonica should continue to pump settlers, first might settle at B8 (silk), other will substitute Cities that we autoraze.
I don't know, what detailed plan Zab needs, the natural plan is to send 3-4 Legioners to Marseill and Chartress, and then 5-7 to Paris. Paris is building Pyramids now, and can't help with defence. AFAIK it takes 5-10 turns to finish Pyramids, the best is to take Paris next turn after Pyramid. (May be I wrong, when I did French embassy it was 41 turns to finish Oracle, is it cheaper, then Pyramids?). I think our next target after French might be Babilons (Our troops will be mainly at North.) The strongest opponents at our continent is Germany and I think we should think about war with Germany first. I think it will be more efficient to finish Greek with Knights.
@King Alex, could you do plan for Zab, you better understand me and warlord level...

One thing: if I remember correctly, we have 4 workers(divided into 2 pairs) near Caiserium. I suggest, we leave 1 pair to improve the land, and begin a road towards France with the other pair: those cities will soon be ours, and if they'll autoraze, we could find our own cities, there. So, it'll be good to have a road; our units will go faster in French cities.

EDIT: We could make the road with the pair that finishes first it's current work.

These workers can be seen in the screenshot, I forgot.

EDIT 2: We also need to connect Antium; the workers mining the spices on the north city(I don't see the screenshot now), could do it.

We also should take the single scientist from Mabellonica after it makes the settler, and make a single scientist at Antium. What do you say?

@K-A- I agree that takning out the Greek cities at a lower population will be easier, but I also think we should stab at the place of least resistance, aka France. I dread to think of the unit losses we'd have against hoplites on hills at this point. At least once we have knights they'll be able to retreat if the hoplite give them trouble. With one move units it's either all or nothing, and it would be devastating to impale a large chunk of our military on their hoplites.

My internet time is limited, so K-B and Alex, could you prepare detailed plan for Zab and explain him how renegotiate Peace? I think my plan for preturn should be executed.
Road to north is a good idea.
I will try to connect next 2 hours or so.
Regards, Ivan

Yes, K-B, I've seen your point: let's take care of Greece a bit later.

@KA - My posts were only my personal assessments. I apologize for the confusion.

My major concern is where are these troops coming from? If we declare war on france preturn, they will start their buildup and will be sending troops to us. My method has always been walk up to the city with your troop stack and then declare war. Is unmobilized war really that good of an option?

I will do as the team thinks I should, definately. I just hope the next 10 turns isn't suicide.

@KA - My posts were only my personal assessments. I apologize for the confusion.

My major concern is where are these troops coming from? If we declare war on france preturn, they will start their buildup and will be sending troops to us. My method has always been walk up to the city with your troop stack and then declare war. Is unmobilized war really that good of an option?

I will do as the team thinks I should, definately. I just hope the next 10 turns isn't suicide.
Politics should go before war. We have strong army and can start war "non-mobilized." If you delay you loose initiative. In fact K-B have prepared troops in first approximation. French can't do anything against us even if they "know" that we are at war. The are in Anarchy, Paris build Pyramids... It is very good moment to start war now. Who knows, what happend next turn? Greek might declare, English might declare...
If we drug Greeks to war they will be weaker. If you feel youself unconfident with advance, keep troops in Cities, and let Greek fight for us few turns.
Do you know how to renegotiate Peace Treaty? (English, Americans).
Go to "active" click "Peace Treaty" add their gold (I am sure, English will give at least 100 and Americans All their gold). Then declare war, and then makeke an Alliance. Then continue normally, like French declare us.
Please ask if something unclear.
Regards, Ivan.

Thank you for your clarifications, Ivan.

I can handle the war. I just wanted to make sure that all the angles have been looked at. You made some good points, and the fact that France is in Anarchy seals the deal and makes all the difference here.

Besides the imminent war, we have a settler forming next turn. Where should I send it?

We do have some land left south in the tundra, but I'm not really sure. I'd say use your discretion and place it where you think is good.

Besides the imminent war, we have a settler forming next turn. Where should I send it?
I think, Ivan gave instructions for B8; anyway, to grab silks.

Ok. I am going to start playing now. Whoever is online, please stay online in case I have some concerns.

I'll try to be here, if you have any questions, Zab. I think, you're going to do well.

EDIT: Just follow Ivan's suggestions; he's a good "teacher".

Can you IRC? I am sitting at:

irc.advancedpowers.com
#gotm

I can't IRC. Better send me PM, if you want to ask something. I'm waiting here, and we could do this.

EDIT: I went to the url you wrote, and said that I don't have permission to access the server.
Btw: I'm at work, so I can't install anything, if required.

Ok. Renegotiated peace. Got 61g and WM from Abe, 110g and WM from Liz. Greece wouldn't settle for Currency alone. Had to add RoP and 80g to the deal. Didn't want to give them republic. Mab and Alexandreii finish their jobs, and I set them to legionairs for a few turns.

So far so good, right?

Wait a little to have a taste from the screenshot. Maybe it's good to do this from PM, because it is too much, to post in this thread(rules?). I'll PM you shortly.

PRETURN Renegotiated peace. Abe gives us 61 gold and a World Map, Lizzy gives us 110 gold and a World Map. Declared war on Joan. Greece wouldn't bite on just currency and I didn't want to give up Republic. It took Currency, RoP, and 80 gold to get him to ally.

T1 590 Greek parked a warrior on a mountain between France and Forpost. We don't have to worry about that city for now. Mab builds settler, switch to Legionair. Alexandreii build Armamentarium, switch to Legionair. Settled Neapolis. Sent two Legionairs and a horseman from Rome to Kaiserium. Marseilles is my first target. Going to move a force of 4 legionary and 2 horseman to Marseilles.

T2 570 Moved more forces towards Marseilles. This should be an easy take. Besacon settled in our silky spot, so we either have to move them or wait until Greece does the job for us. Cumae builds worker and I get it started on Armamentarium. Moved some workers to Kaiserium for the road to Gay Paree. Switched Mab back to settler for the razing party. I should note that a couple of workers have been ordered to road to our new cities. Remember: The Romans were well known for their roads.

T3 550 Moving more stuff around. Two units are in the vicinity of Marseilles. The rest of the force will be there soon. Sent a horseman to Alexandreii because of Besacon. Abe is going to settle a new city near Kaiserium. Joan sent a warrior our way. :-)

T4 530 Abe entered our borders. Rebuked him. Full force near Marseilles. Will attack in two turns, just to make sure we have everyone fully ready.

T5 510 Started roading to Marseilles. Mabellonica gets civil disorder so I give them some entertainment. Whole group together. Waiting one turn. Our first galley is produced. Since we know there is land to the east I am sending it that way. It will be a loner.

T6 490 Mab is ok, builds settler. Ivanorium gets disorder and I give them some entertainment. Began fight. Immediately lose one horseman and almost another. Legionary kills a spearman and we enter a Golden Age!!!!! Marseilles is history and we get two workers. Sending them back for instant duty and regrouping the forces. Ivan will probably have to lead the next attack.

T7 470 Joan wants to talk. I humor her and she doesn't give us Besancon and Chartres. Pity her. She fights back and manages to take a horseman and a legionary. I grouped all the forces on one space, fortified the horseman, and immediately set the workers to a fortress.

T8 450 Workers fortified. We will hold this square. Ivan you will see the buildup there and understand what went on. I highly recommend we get a massive front and hit Paris. Make them move their capital. Greece is getting ready to take Besacon. I have a settler/legion/horseman combo ready to move in as soon as that happens.

T9 430 Greece takes Becancon. They didn't raze it, so now we will have to fight for it. The settler and forces will sit there. Abe and Liz are about to fight over the patch of land we are holding with our force buildup. Moving them all to the hills.

T10 410 Got all forces out of the way. Ivan you definately have your work cut out for you. We have several cities rebuilding forces and we can prepare to attack in probably 4 or 5 turns.


Summary: North of Alexandreii is a settler/horseman/legionary combo. You could take Besacon any time you want to because of this. All of our main force is North of Kaiserium. Those swordsman have been kicking our legionary all over the place. Recommend bringing England in on the war so France will turn their heads. Maybe even Babylon?? Keep an eye on the galleys!

Hope I didn't put us too far in the dumps here.

Ok, Zab, I'll have to see the save first, when I go home.
But, I recommend that we use those 2 captured workers to build roads/improve the land, instead of build a fortress: if the unist are wounded, they could be left fortified to heal(as you did).

Sorry. Here is the save:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/sgotm3/Ivan_SG003_BC0410_01.SAV


@Ivan: King Alex gave me some pointers on how to deal with unhappy citizens, so I won't make entertainers anymore. Mab and Ivanorium each have an entertainer.

Got save.
Have not seen it yet.
Ivan

I took a quick look at the save, and here is what I think.

1. We should be building markets in our core cities. Rome can have one done in 5 turns easily. We really need the extra income they will provide.

2. We need to upgrade our military. We have have at least 4-5 warriors sitting around our core that can become legions and help at the front. I understand leaving a few to hold down the cities, but we don't need more than one for a city. We don't get MP happiness now that we're a Republic, so more than one to a city is overkill.

3. We need to get our military into action. We have 3 legions sitting fortified in Rome. We simply can't let them sit back while we're trying to conquer. The rest of our military is at least 3-4 moves away from French territory. We need to get up there and get in on the action. It would be bad if we let the Greeks have all the fun and rewards. Also, we have an elite Legionnaire. Maybe we'll get lucky enough to get a leader and a shiny new FP in Paris.

As for an attack plan, I think perhaps we should gather our troops and head for Chartres (i think, it's the city SW of Paris), and then North east to Paris itself. After that, we can push east and take the some more cities, or see if they'll sue for peace and take a few cities.

I still cannot understand why Besancon was not autorazed. It had 1 pop and no culture. If Besancon culture flips back to France, we should take the city asap.

When did Abe settle 2 cities??? They must were already on their way to settle the unclaimed land.

As K-B said, we should upgrade those warriors we have fortified, wake the legionaries from Rome and get them to action. At least, we should take Chatres if Paris proves too much and the WW becomes a major issue.
We should watch carefully the Elite legionary: maybe we'll get a Leader from him.

Btw: if France signs with Abe, those 2 American cities should be ours immediatly. Maybe we'll make a quick war and take those cities, or if they'll autoraze, replace them with ours.

I tried to protect the elite legionary best I could. He was pretty low before getting his stripe. If I would have advanced forward we would have been attacked in our weekened state. I drew back. We lost a turn in the process but we kept the elite legionary.

The stack of workers are there to road quickly to wherever our next battle is.

DON'T FORGET that we have RoP with Greece right now.

@Ivan: what do you think for our current situation? We haven't heard of your opinion, yet.

@Ivan: what do you think for our current situation? We haven't heard of your opinion, yet.
Have no words. Simply can't understand whats going on. How you let Americans settle at strategically important position? How you have lost Technological leadership? Why advance so slow? Even AI (Greeks) move better.
I'v played preturn and couplemore turns.
Hope, will finish tomorrow.

We can't start war with Americans because we have renegotiated peace treate.
I make RoP with them and concentrate troops for siege of Paris.

I've had a quick peek at the save and have to agree with Ivan... what happened! You played well in most ways Zab, but have missed a couple of little things that might make all the difference. For example our science rate is now at 10% meaning we are spending 16gpt on science when we will get the same effect by having a single scientist. I reccomend changing the entertainer (clown) in Ivanorium to a scientist, the city is still happy enough and we will gain 16gpt just by doing this. This will increase our war effort greatly, taking us to +46gpt!

I am not sure of your normal level of play but just like me and King Alex you will go up by 1-2 levels just by playing this game with the likes of Ivan and K_B. If it helps we can try to explain the "whys" of things that Ivan and the others plan, I asked a lot of questions in SGOTM2 and it has helped me get to Monarch level single player games!

But don't worry, all is not lost! You saved an elite Legionary and if we get a leader out of him he shall be named in your honour!

-> Off topic slightly

Sorry I've been a bit quiet lately, I'm working my a$$ off to get a promotion at the moment, doesn't give me time to surf the forum in my lunch hour as much :(

Ok, let's try to do what is best for our situation.

I think, those American settlers were nearby and Zab couldn't do anything about claiming the land. Anyway, let's see what we'll gain from the French.

@Ivan: you did the right thing with the RoP with America, because we need to pass through their territory. I suggest, after the 20 turns have passed, we make a quick war and take those 2 cities.

@mabellino: I hope you'll get your promotion.

EDIT: Ivan is on vacation, so it does take him a little time to post his logs. I just wanted to tell the team-members not to worry.

Here is the save. I did not finish last turn, but 48 hours over. If you give me 6-8 hours more I can try. If it is my last connrction today King Alex will play tomorrow with this save. Turns was very eventful and I manage to get back technological parity. Actually I or King Alex have to make peace with French (Tours as a Peace deal) and (may be) "gift" currensy to Babilons and get Mono for Republic. Another option let Greeks take Tours and get Mono + avingon for peace. Our next target is Babilons Gems, and then Moscow with Pyramids. (The games 3 and 2 looks very similar, but I can do nothing - this is optimal strategy and Emperor close to Monarch).
Currently we have WM parity with English, Greeks and Asteks, others well behind. Our AI do not know map of other continent (that costs approximately 200g). So do not trade WM to Russians, Amer, Bab, Germans "for free".
Also Becase germans have GL better not to trade Engeneering.

@Ivan: I haven't yet looked at the save, but, you may finish your turns(I'm sure, no one has an objection), and maybe, take 1-2 turns to complete your plan(war, trading), if you want: you and K-B are our most experienced players.

P.S.: taking 1-2 turns, doesn't mean that I'm trying to avoid playing. I'm just saying that you can complete your current strategy, if you want.

@Ivan: I haven't yet looked at the save, but, you may finish your turns(I'm sure, no one has an objection), and maybe, take 1-2 turns to complete your plan(war, trading), if you want: you and K-B are our most experienced players.

P.S.: taking 1-2 turns, doesn't mean that I'm trying to avoid playing. I'm just saying that you can complete your current strategy, if you want.
I finish turn (after some trhinking) Make peace with French and trade Currency+Rep+WM to Babs for Mono+29gold.
Did some Mcmng. We (you) should start war with Babilon 2-3 turns after, (Settle on their land near Silk) and attack their core (no alliance)(Gems, Incense). Next target Russia (Pyramid, fur).
I will write turnlog later. Please discuss current situation.
Regards, Ivan.

Currently we have WM parity with English, Greeks and Asteks, others well behind. Our AI do not know map of other continent (that costs approximately 200g). So do not trade WM to Russians, Amer, Bab, Germans "for free".
Also Becase germans have GL better not to trade Engeneering.

Does this mean we now qualify for the spoiler thread? I can do a write up if you guys agree....

Well played Ivan, I look forward to your turn log :)

Ok, Ivan. Here's the situation:

1) Congratulations for leaving France with only 2 cities.
2) I notice, that you didn't leave any units inside the French cities, but outside: there is the chance that they flip back. Good thinking.
3) France has 2 workers for sale, for 53g: I think, we should buy them, because they are equal to 1 worker from us, but we don't pay the 1gpt.
4) France and Greece are still at war.
5) Lyons has pop1, and we could begin building a Bibliotheca(later on, we could rush it).
6) Nice that you took the WM and we have communications with everyone. Aztecs, Iroquis, Indians and Japanese are on the other continent. The only ones that we don't have contact, are the Japanese. The civs on the other continent are far behind in techs.
So, we'll not trade contacts yet, right? I don't know how much time it'll take for another civ to make contact with the other continent. I'll not trade/sell Engineering to Germany or trade the WM to the civs in our continent. You've traded the WM to Babylon if I understood correctly? If so, because we're planning to invade them? Are we certain, that they're not going to trade it around?
7) We'll keep the legion/settler outside Besancon, in case it flips back to France, and we'll take it declaring again, and ruin our reputation? Otherwise, we should take them from there and move them towards the front, so we could settle a city if we have the chance.
8) Why not build workers in Chatres, Paris, Tours, and Orleans? I don't think it's against the rules. If not, we should start Bibliotheca's: I don't think, those cities could help in the upcoming war against Babylon(with producing units, I mean).
9) We have a worker, and 3 more French workers inside the borders from Ellipi, roading a mountain. I guess, your thinking was: once we take the city, we should have a road to the gems. Nice planning, but what about if Babylon demands that we remove our workers from there? If they don't say anything, we should wait a few turns before attacking, to give our workers the time to finish the road, and draw them back, so they're safe, because we'll not attack Ellipi from that mountain. After Ellipi, we'll go for Babylon, I assume.
10) As for planning to attack Russia: we'd need to cross American territory(or German, if they settle the gap). We can discuss it later. Oh!! I forgot that we already have a RoP with Abe, and we could renew it.
11) I dindn't understood where in Babylon you suggested me to settle. Near what silks? They don't have any.
12) We're behind in Monarchy against most civs in our continent, and England knows Theology, also.
So, we keep our current research rate(80%, -42gpt) until we learn Invetion, and then research what and at which rate? Do we want to trade it or start a prebuild for Leonardo's?(I don't believe we have a chance of completing it first, as the other already are building San Tzu's and could switch at any time).

P.S.: I hope, I didn't asked too much!!!

any chance of a screen shot King Alex??? please please please!!!

@mabellino: I'll try to upload one, although, I succeed VERY rarely. Wait a bit.
Dear mabellino sorry, but my connection stabs me in the back, once more!!!

@Ivan: Americans were there long before we were. At the beginning of my turnlog I mentioned them entering the territory near Kaiserium and I having to rebuke them. There is nothing I could have done, since just one turn before I renegotiated peace with them. Should I have blocked off their territory rather than take Marseilles?

In my opinion, I had a very difficuly turnset with organizing troops for war and getting that war started. I am sure my stack of workers with the troops came in handy, and I managed to get a galley moving in the right direction and another on the way. All of the city production was caught up and our new cities were almost roaded.

As for the science, we were producing zero science when I got the save and I have never used scientists in cities. King Alexander told me about the entertainer misuse and that won't happen again, but will someone explain Emperor-level science to me? From what I thought, even a scientist produces nothing with the slider at 0%.

Yes I have lots to learn, and believe me I am listening carefully.

Nice work Ivan. Not only have we knocked the French down to size, we had a successful suicide galley. It's good to know that the other continent is backwards. They'll make great cannon fodder :evil:

As for plans, I think Ivan's plan of going to Babylon for the gems is a good one. After we ct them down to size, we could probably make a quick foray over to England, as they are quite small and quite without iron. A great playground for our elite legions, I do say.

Germany, Russia, and America are all going to have pikes by the time we invade, so we either neeed to get a whole lot more legions to balance the losses, or we need to get to chivalry somehow. I'm not so sure that we should research chivalry, but instead continue down the bottom of the tech tree all the way to Military Tradition. If the AI picks up chivalry along the way, that would be great, otherwise we can build up some horses until then and then upgrade to cavalry and blitz the world.

And, for everyone, a screen shot of our current situation.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SGOTMKB.JPG

Also, if you have the time Mabellino, writing up a spoiler would be great, if you'd like to.

I just hope that Greece stays quiet all the time that we take on others. Paying them to give us the silks, is a good way of avoiding war with them, for the time being: we already import silks from Greece.

@K-B: another luxury(gems), would be great for our empire.

@Zab: if you make an entertainer in a city, you get the same scientific progress(the slowest) as if you had the slider to 10%. That means, you don't pay for science, but still researching the techs, though, one should choose carefully in which city to make the single scientist, and make sure that the city can hadle that, and not starve down.

@Ivan: I'm still waiting for your answers over my questions. I'm not in a rush to play, before we have cleared everything.

Greece shouldn't be too much of a problem, I think. They still don't have iron, IIRC, so they won't be bringing much to the party if they declare. We'll probably be able to fend them off with what military we have being produced.

Also, a bit off topic, but the latest save hasn't been uploaded yet. Someone should probably do it soon. I'll upload it if no one else does in the meantime.

@ Zab
You did have a very difficult turn set and I for one think you played really well! 1 or 2 minor mistakes is nothing to worry about, we all do that from time to time! You should have seen all the mistakes we made in SGOTM2 and we still came 6th!

@All
I'll write up a spoiler tonight and post it in this thread first to get everyone's approval. (Ivan, I'm thinking of your limited internet time and we'll probably need a few screenshots to illustrate)

0 410 BC
Check Situation. F3 shows that we are strong vs others. Good. Greeks, English, Germans
above us Monarchy, Mono and Feudalism, Russian: mono and Monarchy, French: monarchy, Americans below us by Republic
and Babilonians below Currency and Republic. Very strange. How at GA, with good Cities with Libraries we manage to lose
research initiative? We had to trade Republic for mono and mono for Feudalism agressively. May be bad luck.
Feudalism slow and impossible to speed up. Two Americans Cities at strategically important position (center of
the continent). Similary to chess the center is the place we should take and hold first of all. We can't start war with
Americans because we have renegotiated peace. We have three Settlers that do nothing. Most of the troops located on non
active positions and warriors not upgraded yet. We are at war with French 10 turns and did not capture any French City yet.
Workers make road at the forest and this road leads nowhere. Many Cities needs Aqueducts, Marketplaces.
Plan for turns: consolidate troops and capture Paris - Orlean. Settle at the gate of Paris. Settle near Silk.
Connect to Greeks and start trade. Try to make contact with overseas.
Preturn itself:
Production changes: Alexandr: worker, Rome: Bibliotec, SF: bibliotec, Ivanarium: Aqueduct.
Lux 10%, Sci 40%. mcmng not to get disorder.
Trade WM. Send troops forward. Upgrade warriors.
IBT Greek and English start Sun-Tzu. Abe ask to remove troops
Greek and Americans block way to silk.
1 390 BC
Continue to move troops north. Renegotiate Peace Treaty with Germans. Got Feudalism for 18 gpt. Effectively that means that we are bound
for 40 turns peace. Engineering 30 turns. (Thats awfull IMHO). Lux 20%, Sci 20%. Change Rome Biblioteca to Forum and SF from
Biblioteca to Aqueduct.
Ibt
Greek and French fight. French kill immortal. Velii build Galley. Abe kick of our troops.
2 370 BC
Make embasyy in Washington. They have 5 spears inside. Made RoP with Americans. Troops move faster then. Workers will build highway
Rome-Paris. Horse kill french sword. Galley move out and stop. It will take risk next turn. Send third Settler south. Looks that our
continent overpopulated.
IBT: French sword attack our Horse, that retreat. East Galley won vs Barb.
3 350 BC Galley move across sea. Troops go north. Horse come to silk positiuon. Found Pompei.
IBT
We won some fights. Galley survive.
Cornif cultur bordere expand and we can't settle on silk. Grrr....
4 330 BC
Galley make contact with Astecs. They have 459 gold and below Rep, Lit, Construction.
Wery good. This gold will be ours. Certanly we will not trade our contacts and buy theirs.
Atstecs: Contact with Ind+63 gold for WM. We above Indians by Lit, Rep, Poly, Curr, Construction.
Indians: TM+contacts Iro+Jap for WM. trade WM to Japan for WM. Trade Construction to Astecs for WM and all their gold + 2 Gpt.
Scie 70% Engineering 7 turns (512g -67 gpt). Workers finish road and troops move to Paris hill. Block Babilon's settler+Warrior couple.
Settler move to south Fish.
IBT Atstecs ask to move out our Galley. French run away. Greek move forward.
5 310 BC Move troops to Paris. Leg won Chartress spear, Archer dies. Move "Silk" Settler North. Lis
agrees to buy our WM for 100+7gpt. I'd like to do it when we will connected to Grees.
IBT Barb attack Mycenese.
6 290 BC Capture Paris. Cartress Legioner dies. Bring Horses to attack Chartress.
IBT Barb attack Mycenese. French Retreat. Babs settler move back.
7 270 BC Capture Chartress. move troops toward Orlean. WW 20%. Mcmg to avoid disorder.
IBT Nothing interesting.
8 250 BC Greek connected. Trade Spices +WM+1gpt+11g for silk+Suffimentum. Lux 10%. Sci 80%
Sell WM to English for 126+6gpt. Sell Literature to Atstecs for WM+69g+2gpt.
IBT Greeks move North. Eastern Galley won vs Barb, Palce Improved, Berlin build Lighthouse. Pickman appear in
Orleans.
9 230 BC Capture Orlean. Move horses to attack Lyons. Sci 70%. Eng next turn
IBT. Eng->Invention, Wonders cascade, English build Sis Chap.(Theology).
10 210 BC Two horses dies near Lyons. Bring troops to attack Rheims. Start road near Ellipy. Sci 80%, Invention
IBT Greek attack Tours. French hold. Pick appears at Rheims.
11. 190 BC Capture Lyons. Lose 4 Legioners (2 elite) near Rheims. (My very bad move, need break).
Make Peace with French (Tours+WM+2 gold).
Trade Currency to Babs for WM+29 gold. Trade Rep+WM for Monotheism.
English have monopoly for Theology, We have monopoly for Engineering. No trade resonable because Germans have TGL.

@king Alex Declare war and settle near Edit: Urik at (-A7). Cover our workers near Ellipy. Will answer other questions soon.

Here is screenshort with future plans. War with Babilon should be Short. Just capture two cities and demand 1-2. I think Alex can start and finish it within 10-13 turns, if Paris will not flip. As a result of this war we'll get Silk, Gems and Suffimentum. Next targets are Moscow (Pyramid) and Kiev (fur). We can go around (single dashed lines) or dirctly via Peterburg (double dashed line). (Mabellino, K-B). What do you about this plan?

King Alex wrote:
1) Congratulations for leaving France with only 2 cities.
2) I notice, that you didn't leave any units inside the French cities, but outside: there is the chance that they flip back. Good thinking.
3) France has 2 workers for sale, for 53g: I think, we should buy them, because they are equal to 1 worker from us, but we don't pay the 1gpt.
4) France and Greece are still at war.
5) Lyons has pop1, and we could begin building a Bibliotheca(later on, we could rush it).
6) Nice that you took the WM and we have communications with everyone. Aztecs, Iroquis, Indians and Japanese are on the other continent. The only ones that we don't have contact, are the Japanese. The civs on the other continent are far behind in techs.
So, we'll not trade contacts yet, right? I don't know how much time it'll take for another civ to make contact with the other continent. I'll not trade/sell Engineering to Germany or trade the WM to the civs in our continent. You've traded the WM to Babylon if I understood correctly? If so, because we're planning to invade them? Are we certain, that they're not going to trade it around?
7) We'll keep the legion/settler outside Besancon, in case it flips back to France, and we'll take it declaring again, and ruin our reputation? Otherwise, we should take them from there and move them towards the front, so we could settle a city if we have the chance.
8) Why not build workers in Chatres, Paris, Tours, and Orleans? I don't think it's against the rules. If not, we should start Bibliotheca's: I don't think, those cities could help in the upcoming war against Babylon(with producing units, I mean).
9) We have a worker, and 3 more French workers inside the borders from Ellipi, roading a mountain. I guess, your thinking was: once we take the city, we should have a road to the gems. Nice planning, but what about if Babylon demands that we remove our workers from there? If they don't say anything, we should wait a few turns before attacking, to give our workers the time to finish the road, and draw them back, so they're safe, because we'll not attack Ellipi from that mountain. After Ellipi, we'll go for Babylon, I assume.
10) As for planning to attack Russia: we'd need to cross American territory(or German, if they settle the gap). We can discuss it later. Oh!! I forgot that we already have a RoP with Abe, and we could renew it.
11) I dindn't understood where in Babylon you suggested me to settle. Near what silks? They don't have any.
12) We're behind in Monarchy against most civs in our continent, and England knows Theology, also.
So, we keep our current research rate(80%, -42gpt) until we learn Invetion, and then research what and at which rate? Do we want to trade it or start a prebuild for Leonardo's?(I don't believe we have a chance of completing it first, as the other already are building San Tzu's and could switch at any time).

P.S.: I hope, I didn't asked too much!!!
Good questions indeed! .
1. Thanks.
2. Did not thought actually. Put Archers there and build workers.
3. Workers? Really? Buy of cource. Miss it somehow: Sorry...
4. 5. Yes.
6. We have communication with Japan AFAIK.
7. This Settler should settle at -A7, near silk. This is a trick.
8. Yes, it is a good idea. Workers will build military road.
9. Do not move real troops until we ready to war. I think we will start war before
road will ready.
10. We have 2 possibilities. (See picture).
11. Near Uruk (-A7, Zab's notation).
12. Not sure that Leo (600 shields) is reasonable to build. Also, when GA will over we will have to reduce our research... Will see how to carry ourt research later...

To the team:
I'm very sorry, but you'll have to skip me this time: my sister came to see me(she's in Scottland), and I'll be away for the weekend.

I'll be available from Monday.

Good luck for mabellino or K-B.

Please take into consideration what Ivan suggested on my previous questions, e.g.: buy the 2 French workers for 53g, ect...

No problem Alex... I'll play today, just going to finish the spoiler post and do a few domestic duties... expect the save/turn log by this evening (gmt=7pm)


@Ivan
Great turns! One dumb question though... what's a forum? and I don't mean the one I'm currently posting in! I mean the new latin name for something...

Here's our spoiler post, I kept it brief and didn't include mundane things like units built/improvements..


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/ivan_610bc_overview.jpg

The early turns:
Settle on the spot, build order is warrior(x4), settler, barracks then spear
Scout W,SW find Athens
Scout W->N Spices cluster
Scout E->SE Silks
Scout E ->N
Meet Greeks in 3500BC and French in 3150BC.
Trade Bronze working to Greeks for Warrior Code+ 36g
Buy a French worker for 26g

2900BC Found Second city (Mabellonica)

2590BC Meet Liz
Buy Pottery from French for 39g, sell Pottery+10g to Greeks for Ceremonial Burial

2390BC Meet Babs (no trades)

2150BC Discover Writing

2070BC Buy contact w/Germans from England for 40g
Writing to France for IW, Contact w/America and 15g.
IW to America for Masonry and 6g.
Writing to Babylon for Mysticism and 4g
Mysticism and 22g to Russia for The Wheel
Writing to Russia for HBR and 22g
Writing to Greece for 82g.

1910BC Greeks demand 26g, we pay up

1675BC Buy Philosophy from Germans for 120g
Buy maths from English for Philosophy, 36g +1gpt

1625BC Found 3rd city (Ivanorium)

1550BC Found 4th city (Alexandreii)

1500BC Found 5th city (Kaiserium)

1400BC Greeks and Russians are at war
Settle 6th city (Zabus)

1375BC Make embassy with Greeks
Greeks give TM+16g+MMking for MA vs Russians WM+2gpt
Americans TM+77g for WM
Embassy in Paris: Oracle (41 turns, 5spt, 3 food pt, 1 spices, 2 spear)
French give RoP+TM for WM
England: 57 g for WM
Greek 1 g for WM,
Babylon WM for TM
England: WM+2 for WM
Greek WM+8 for WM

1300BC English demand TM+28 gold, we refuse but they don't declare

1150BC Found 7th city (Forpost), Antium also founded around this time (city 8)

1075BC Make peace with Russians they give PT+WM+14g +Polytheism for PT!
Phony war paid off, we got MM and Poly very cheaply!
Buy Construction from French for Poly, C.o.L, WM +28g

800BC Germany builds Great Library

775BC Sell construction to Germany for 37g+WM

750BC Build first galley but its mission is spoilered!

650BC French and English in Middle ages
Trade WM+330g to Liz for Currency
Trade Currency+209g+10gpt to Germany for The Republic
Call a revolution, get a 2 turn Anarchy!

630BC Roman Republic formed and are now in the Middle ages

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/ivan_610bc_mil.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/ivan_610bc_score.jpg

Well done, Mabellino! :goodjob: Great write up :D

BTW, forum=marketplace.

To the team:
I'm very sorry, but you'll have to skip me this time: my sister came to see me(she's in Scottland), and I'll be away for the weekend.


Good luck for mabellino or K-B.

Please take into consideration what Ivan suggested on my previous questions, e.g.: buy the 2 French workers for 53g, ect...
Better to buy workers for WM, these workers will go to cut forest near Alexandreii.
Also look at Zabus/Forpost, where forest cut
and build something not to loose shields.
Build Biblioteca in Mabelonica (after forum).
Attack Babilonians.
Regards, Ivan.

Ok, I'm looking forward to mabellino's log/save. I'm back, and I can offer more suggestions from tomorrow(Monday).

EDIT: Mabellino: are you playing?

How do you buy workers?

How do you buy workers?
It's like you wanted to buy a tech/lux/resource. You pic the worker(when and if one is available for sale), and you ask what they want for the worker. Of course, the AI will ask for a higher price(as usual), and you can haggle enough to see how much gold do they want. Usually, 30g is enough for Vanilla Civ.

I know that mabellino might be playing now and post soon, otherwise, I'd pick the save and play(if she can't play soon), or K-B should play.

OK, where is Mabellino's save? Her "got it" was 31 July and 48 hours over. I think Alex can play now, however if Mabellino post her save first we should treat her play as "current play" and K-B will play after.

I agree that Alex should go ahead and play if he has time, and if Mabellino reports before then, take her turns instead.