BNH01- Conquesting Emperor [Archive] - Civilization Fanatics' Forums

Rik Meleet

Jul 20, 2004, 04:37 PM

Starting turn:
[0] 4000 BC.
The general rule on moving the settler is: "Only consider moving if your starting position is crap". Well Obviously it isn't. 2nd rule is: "don't settle on bonus-grasslands". 3rd rule is: "move the worker and scout first, perhaps there are better locations". Worker goes due West. More grassland, more river, more mountains. The scout goes due north. Wheat 4 tiles north. Great 2nd site. Settle on the spot. "Lissabon" founded. A goody hut just outside our borders. Start curragh.
Set research to Ceremonial Burial as it is the cheapest tech so we won't get the cheapest tech from huts. 100% Sci.

[1] 3950 BC. Worker mines, Scout scouts.
[2] 3900 BC. idem
[3] 3850 BC. Scout finds coast in the West.
[4] 3800 BC. Worker mines, Scout scouts.
[5] 3750 BC. Scout finds a Goody hut.
[6] 3700 BC. Scout is on a volcano which is about to become active :eek: ! The hut gives us 25 gold. Lissabon will grow next turn, so I switch tiles around.
IBT: Lissabon grows and Curragh is finished. Starting scout.
[7] 3650 BC. Up lux to 10%. Curragh explores southwards. Mine finished, worker roads the tile. Scout sees the tip of the likely Northern Coast. Switch tiles to build Scout in 2.
[8] 3600 BC. Scout moving further north.
IBT: scout build in Lissabon. Next in queue: Settler.
[9] 3550 BC. New scout pops the hut and finds: Warrior Code. Northern Scout "Pablo" finds Ivory.
IBT: Lissabon expands it's borders. Volcano erupts.
[10] 3500 BC. Move worker towards cow.
[11] 3450 BC. Southern Scout "Juan" finds Incense. Our curragh reaches the south tip of our Island.
IBT: another volcano erupts.
[12] 3400 BC. Pablo finds more wheat.
[13] 3350 BC. More land scouted. Juan finds some Tundra-Game.
[14] 3300 BC. Pablo spots another goody hut. So does our Curragh.
IBT: Lissabon grows to size 3.
[15] 3250 BC. Lux upped to 30%. Settler due in 1. Curragh finds Tobacco. Pablo moves into position to pop the hut next turn, also spotting an oasis. Juan is moving towards the other hut.

So my 15 turns are done. I believe 10 turns from now on.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/small_map_3250_bc.JPG (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/big_map_3250_bc.JPG)
Click image for larger version.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-_3250bc.SAV)

BigNHuge

Jul 20, 2004, 05:33 PM

Very nice so here is the order now. Looks very good start wise.

Rik Meleet<------ Just played
jb1964<------ Up
BigNHuge<------ on deck
SJ Frank<------ in the hole

SJ Frank

Jul 20, 2004, 09:33 PM

Hi guys, I downloaded the save, and took the liberty of creating a tentative dot-map:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-DotMap2.jpg

sites 1 - 5 are the most important ones in my estimation.

1 is the 4-turn settler factory

2 gets the Ivory (SoZ anyone :D )

3 allows 1 to get that 2nd wheat without having to build a temple. It could be build one tile to the NW in order to reduce overlap, but doing so would use up a valuable food tile. Site 3 is surrounded by mountains, so in the future, it's going to need all the food tile is can get.

4 is our wonder site, settle it then immediately put it on a pre-build

5 could be our FP site. It is on the 2nd ring, in the general direction of our future expension, and has plenty of good shields. When I play solo, I like to pick out the FP early, and settle it with high priority. Getting the FP early make a huge difference IMO.

Note that most cities are on fresh water, and most do not need a temple to be productive cities.

Comments?

SJ Frank

Jul 20, 2004, 10:17 PM

I also contemplated switching Lissabon to a granary right now.

Without our 2nd city being such a strong site, it would be a no brainer to do granary first.

However, right now we do have a trade off. Between 1) founding our 2nd city 9 turns early (yes, I counted, it would take Lissabon exactly 10 turns to build the granary then the settler), vs. 2) delaying our 3rd city to probably the 6th city by at least 10 turns. Cities 7 and beyond will benefit from founding city 2 earlier, because by then the settler factory in city 2 will be up and running.

My personal opinion is to do the granary first, because I think cities 2 - 6 are all very important to us. The real decision, of course, rests with jb1964 :) .

Now, if you choose the granary first route, there is quite a bit of micro-management to be done. In order to do the granary in 6 (to have it finish right before growth, this is very important), you must move the citizen on the cattle to work forrest for one turn, then return him to the cattle on the next turn.

Then, in order to follow the granary immediately with a 4-turn settler, you must have the worker finish his mine, road the same square, then immediately move onto the cattle tile and start irregating, without delay.

Within the city screen, you must make sure that the governer is on production. Upon growth from size 3 to 4, you must move the citizen from the forrest tile to the BG tile (to give the city +3 food per turn). The worker will finish his irrigation just in time to fill out the food box on the 4th turn, and the auto-picked citizen on growth from size 4 to 5 will be just enough to complete the settler that turn.

Simple, no? :p

Rik Meleet

Jul 21, 2004, 05:48 AM

The decision on the granary is for the next player (jb1964) of course, but let me state why I didn't queue a granary. at 3 citizens we are already on 30% lux-slider. with 4 and 5 it will certainly harm our research. My thoughts were to connect luxuries quickly and then grow.

BigNHuge

Jul 21, 2004, 06:08 AM

My thoughts are we get a settler out asap. We need lux and a 2nd city. Make city #2 our granary city and have Lisbon be able to get the Great Lighthouse in the not so distant future. On Archy you never know what kind of distance is between our empire and another. I say we have Lissabon make settlers when it needs to shrink for lux tax reasons, put something like a barracks (Not really needed yet, but those Veteran spears/AC would be nice for stand by) and crank out the defense or build more curraghs/galleys for exploration.

I would like to try to get a tech the AI wouldn't get early and have that for trading purposes.(Something tells me that we will be hopelessly behind in tech, but wheres the challenge when your always 3 or 4 techs ahead)

Also have we scouted all the island? If so and we havent found anyone save those scouts and fill up a few galleys with them for scouting other large islands for better map value in the future.

The dot map you gave is a very good one i agree with. Good work on it.

Very good 15 turns there Rik. Looks like were on track for an intresting game. :)

BigNHuge

Jul 21, 2004, 08:21 AM

I just remembered that JB is in 1.15b because of a SG that he is in right now (GGF4)

JB do you want a skip or are you upgrading?

BigNHuge

Jul 21, 2004, 12:32 PM

Also forgot to mention that we are on the 24 hours to get and 48 hours to play

SJ Frank

Jul 21, 2004, 12:47 PM

This is something that I learned while reading games by the experts on this forum, that lux tax concerns is a very bad reason to reduce your city size early in the game.

I look at it this way, by playing around with the lux slider in the F1 screen, you can actually put an exactly dollar value on what the lux tax is costing you.

For example, at this stage in the game, each tick on slider is costing around 2 gold, and we are planing to run the higher lux for, say 100 turns. What is that costing you? Exactly 200 gold. And what is the benefit? Founding each of your cities X turns earlier.

Compare this price with some of the other things that you have to pay for:

60 gold to upgrade one warrior to swordsmen.
~240 gold to rush one temple
~200 gold to buy one ancient era tech (after some contacts are made)

Paying money to found cities early is an extreme good deal, because its effect snowballs.

That also means hooking up lux is also a lower priority. Those workers should work on getting more cities founded more quickly, because the trade off is once again, growth vs. gold.

I wouldn't mind runing 50% or even 70% lux for a few turns in this game. Try it, you just might like it ;)

BigNHuge

Jul 21, 2004, 01:02 PM

I say we weigh both sides of the issue before we continue.

SJ Frank

Jul 21, 2004, 01:57 PM

This just came up, I'm going to be out of town for this weekend, from thursday afternoon to probably monday night. I will have web access, but unfortunately no civ access.

This means that 1) please skip me during that time, sorry about it :blush:
and 2) I'd really like to get a turn in before I go, preferably after BigNHuge.

As far as the granary vs settler, I'm fine with whatever JB or Big decides to do. It is a SG after all, and I don't mind trying things that I normally wouldn't do myself.

In my previous post, I was trying to point out that going for settler right now for lux concerns is probably not a good reason. Going for an early settler because our 2nd city site is so strong is a very good reason. In fact, if we are on our own lsland, we should definitely do it.

Big also raises a interesting point about building the Lighthouse in Lisbon. It could be very useful on this map.

If we want to do it, we'll need to reasearch/buy Masonry for the pre-build, then go for writing + map making. But, we also can build the SoZ, which requires a Masonry + Math research line. Or, do you guys think we have a chance for the Philosophy gambit? If so, then we need to start on writing right away. Ah choices, choices :crazyeye:

BigNHuge

Jul 21, 2004, 03:11 PM

Ummm... it doesnt look like jb is gonna make the 24 hour limit. So im gonna move him to the end so the line up will look like this. Also this helps with SJ Franks restriction of play to tomorrow.

Rik Meleet
BigNHuge<------ Up
SJ Frank<------ On Deck
jb1964<------ In the hole

BigNHuge

Jul 21, 2004, 04:08 PM

Here is the turns and the save.

Turn [0]- Take a look and contemplate what to do in this situation. The granary would be nice, and so would the settler. I decided to go with the Settler for 2 reasons.
1.) There doesnt seem to be anyone on our island, so we can hold out on the granary for city 2.
2.) A granary is 1gpt. We need the gold for lux tax.

Turn [1]- Lissabon Settler->Spearman. Hmm... how can we build spearmen? Well Sir Pablo of Portugul popped us Bronze Working. Set lux to 0 and can get Ceremonial Burial in 6. Losing 0gpt. Juan will hit a goodie next turn. Curragh moves North. Pablo spots marsh in the distant north.

Turn [2]- Worker roads new mine. Curragh moves. Settler will be there in 3. Jaun gets us the greatest possible thing for us at the moment. Masonry. Yes we can prebuild so we can get either SoZ or a jump to the GL. You guys can decide this. I won't prebuild yet.

Turn [3]- Juan starts heading north up the west coast. Pablo finds more marsh north. Curragh is moving. Nothing special here.

Turn [4]- This turn is boring. Just exploring.

Turn [5]- Found Oporto. Set it to Granary. In 30. Worker to irrigate cow. Meet the Iroquois. They have nothing to trade us. They have a second city. 10 gold and are down 3 techs to us. Soon to be 4. Ceremonial burial in 1. But they will hit a goodie hut 1 turn before us :(.

Turn [6]- They took the hut and hit what it seems to be Warrior Code. Still up 3 techs though. I think we should run a min at writing and go to map making. We are up in techs with our neighbor and we can get 8gpt making it still profitable to run lux tax. Scouts and curragh scout. Worker irrigates cow.

Turn [7]- Curragh finds the Iroquois homeland. Scouts scout. Nothing else special.

Turn [8]- Lissabon Spearman-> Worker. Might switch this. Nothing special here.

Turn [9]- Switch Lissabon to another curragh to scout the east coast. Other then that nothing special.

Turn [10]- Worker to road cow. Another snorzville turn.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH-_2750bc.jpg
Thoughts on turns~

I think were in good shape. After the curragh is finished, a settler can be built. Someone can switch the granary in Oporto. Also, someone can switch off the writing. I chose this because we popped Masonry :goodjob: and can prebuild now. We can try for Philosphy but i doubt we could get it. Any Questions/Comments are definantly welcome. :cool:

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH-2750bc.SAV)

SJ Frank

Jul 21, 2004, 05:19 PM

I got it, will play later tonight.

We are not alone :eek:

SJ Frank

Jul 21, 2004, 11:14 PM

During my turns, I tried to push for growth above everything else.

I used the food bonus tiles in both cites whenever I could, and left both cities building granaries. Those granaries will complete during next player's turn. Please make sure they are completed before growth (Lisbon is already set up this way)

Exploration: the portion of our continent below the Iroquois holdings are pretty much mapped out, so I sent our scouts to explore further north. The second curragh was a great call :goodjob: . Each of the curraghs contacted a new civ, confirming that we are the tech leader.

Science: During turn 0, I pushed science all the way to 100%, to my surprise, it reduced the researching time of Writing from 46 to 36 turns. How is this possible, on a huge map? I decided to leave research at max, It won't matter in the first 20 turns or so, because of the lux tax that I'm planning to use, but once we get some MPs in place and more cities founded, we should be able to get Writing sooner. Besides, by researching, we get to buy Writing from the AI at a real discount, if it comes to that. And the bottom line is - I think we might have a chance at Philosophy!

One final thought: if you deem it real important to explore the Iroquois land for horses, then turn one of the scouts around.

The Turn Log follows:

[0] 2750
- I thought about switching Lisbon to Granary now, but our brave scout Pablo reports seeing land across the sea, so exploration along the East Coast is an urgent business. Lisbon stays on Curragh.
- I think Oporto will need the MP more than Lisbon, due to its corruption and lack of roads, so I wake up the spear in Lisbon and send him north. Lux to 10%.
- I really wish Big had built two warriors instead of the spear. A regular spear isn't of much use in warfare any ways; we sure could use MPs at both cities.
- Science to max (90%), and I press enter.

[1] 2710
- Lisbon starts on Granary, and is set to work the cattle tile, growth in 4. The new East Coast Curragh heads north.

[2] 2670
- Pablo finds a great stash of Incense on the East Coast. Juan finds an undisturbed hut a knight's move from the Ivory, and we get Wheel! I ctrl-shift-M and looked around, unfortunately, we don't have any horse.

[3] 2630
- Worker finishes roading the cattle, since Lisbon already have enough improvements for a 6-turn warrior/settler factory at size 3-5, I send the worker towards Oporto. Oporto will need much more worker help to become a 4-turn factory though.

[4] 2590
[5] 2550
- Another hut next to Niagara Falls nets 25 gold.
- The West Coast curragh finds a land bridge blocking the northern passage, so he turns west.

[6] 2510
[7] 2470
[8] 2430
- Dark green boarder across the seas! Next turn, our western curragh meets the Aztecs. We are up Masonry, Alphabet, Wheel and CB on them.

[9] 2390
[10] 2350
- The eastern curragh meets the Summerians; they are down the same 4 techs as the Aztecs.

So end the first reign of Prince Francis William of the Portuguese :)

Rik Meleet

Jul 22, 2004, 06:30 AM

Things I've noticed:
Iroquois have 2 Ivory connected. Seems Ivory is plentiful on this map. If we want SoZ we'd better hurry. But then again: Wonder Addiction isn't very smart on huge Emperor maps.
Our "island" is more a continent. Expect more civs there.
Both cities need MM-ing to get them to grow in 1 turn, with no shield loss.
I prefer setting Lissabon and Oporto to a worker and a settler pump. The 3rd city (near the ivory ??) can be a warrior pump then.

BigNHuge

Jul 22, 2004, 08:08 AM

Rik why dont you take the save. jb seems to be MIA.

This is the official line up

Rik Meleet<------ Up
jb1964<------ Skip until he contacts us
BigNHuge<------ On Deck
SJ Frank<------ In the hole

BigNHuge

Jul 22, 2004, 08:16 AM

Also, i think we should do one of two things. I really think we should set city #4 to a pre-build for a wonder.

We should rush ASAP for Philo. If we even have the slightest chance to get it we should. Even if we dont, we will be beat by 1-2 civs, and we can trade that tech at 4th civ prices to everyone else.

If we do get to Philo first, it would be excellent indeed. But what free tech would we take?

This is the One of Two choices.

If it really looks like Mathmatics will be grabbed during our time/or the Iroquois start the SoZ before we finish Philo, we should get Map Making. That way we can trade for Math and have an easy shot at The Great Lighthouse in Lissabon. But if they take the Iron Working or HBR or Mysticism-Polythesiem route get Math. That way we have an Early Advantage on the SoZ.

If by some chance we dont get SoZ. (Knock on wood.) We can fall back on something like Pyramids, Oracle, or try a very very long prebuild to Sun Tzu's.

Comments? :)

Rik Meleet

Jul 22, 2004, 10:42 AM

I've got it.

SJ Frank

Jul 22, 2004, 01:02 PM

Agreed on the city management. Looking back, I should have let Lisbon grow more.

Lisbon is going to be a 6 turn settler/warrior factory. It can't build settlers any faster, and it doesn't have enough shield to build spears/archers. However, we could use another exploring curragh...

Oporto will need another city founded in order to get to 4-turn factory. In the mean time, I think it can do a few workers first.

This is what I think about the SoZ:

-- We don't care if someone else got it on another island, because we're not gonna attack another island (or continent :lol: ) until late Middle Age at least.

-- It'd be great if we get it, then we can run over the Iro's easily.

-- If the Iro's get it instead of us, we can take it by force. There is nothing more satisfying than capturing a wonder a turn after its completion, and it's fitting to our theme :)

Do we need to Lighthouse, our exploring curraghs seem to be doing fine, and being seafearing, our ship have less chance of sinking. So instead of spending the shields on the wonder, we can spend it on settlers and galleys, and plan on suiciding those galleys :crazyeye: . It has a "similar" effect to the Lighthouse.

As for the choice of free tech after Philosophy, I prefer the usual path of CoL, then min science on Republic. What can I say, with 2 settler pumps and an early republic, this start looks like a builder's dream :love: . Too bad we have to go-a-conquering ;)

jb1964

Jul 22, 2004, 03:00 PM

Hiya, I'm back on-line. I'll play after Rik's done w/ his turns.

BigNHuge

Jul 22, 2004, 03:04 PM

Welcome back jb! :)

BigNHuge

Jul 22, 2004, 03:06 PM

I will be gone from tomorrow-maybe sunday. If i dont get to play before then, skip me. But if Rik posts the save soon, would you plz play asap jb thank you.

Rik Meleet

Jul 22, 2004, 03:10 PM

Playing now - you're welcome.

BigNHuge

Jul 22, 2004, 03:11 PM

thank you very much :goodjob:

Rik Meleet

Jul 22, 2004, 04:06 PM

IHT: MM-ing cities.

IBT: Sumeria is unhappy with our curraghs inside their borders. Just passing through, Gilgamesh.

[1] 2310 BC. Lissabon and Oporto have grown. Lux to 30%. MM both cities back to food.

IBT: Lissabon Granary -> Settler

[2] 2270 BC. Worker to improve BG. Scouts find big mountain-range. Aztec-island is really narrow, it seems.
Iro's and Sumerians are fast catching up in techs.

[3] 2230 BC. nothing to report.

IBT: Juan meets a Navajo barbarian in the mountains.

[4] 2190 BC. Moving Juan out of reach of the Navajo warrior. We are expansionistic, but not invulnerable.

IBT: A yellow colored scout walks next to Juan !!!

[5] 2150 BC. Juan talks to the Mongol scout and We start talking to Temujin.
They are up Mysticism, but have all the techs we have. And 3 cities are shown in their list, that means they have 4 cities.
Can't buy his Mysticism.
This is bad news as it means: Very few goody huts (if any) left on our island.

IBT: Iro build a city just in front of the Mongol scout. I suppose they have met by now. Lissabon grows and finishes a settler. Starts warrior.

[6] 2110 BC. down lux to 20%. Up Sci to 80%.
Sending settler to the Incense-region. 1 tile of site 4 on this map:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-DotMap2.jpg
It gets Incense immediately, has 3 more BG's, and claims 3 more tiles without stealing Lissabon's tiles.

[7] 2070 BC. MM Oporto; it will grow next turn.
Curragh rounds the south-cape of Sumeria. Scouts reach the end of the mountain-range and see a big jungle.

IBT: Lissabon: warrior -> settler

[8] 2030 BC. Warrior becomes Lissabon's MP. But since Oporto grew I need to increase lux to 40%.

[9] 1990 BC. Curragh reaches the South-Top of Aztec-island.

IBT: Oporto Granary -> worker. (veto-able)

[10] Found "Guimarães" starts The Pyramids. (veto-able)
Aztec-Curragh spots a new coastline, but can't reach it this turn.

-------------------------------
Next Player: Lissabon is MM-ed for the settler. Build in Oporto anything you like. If you decide a worker, you can get it in 2 (slow growth; in 14) or in 3 (with 3,3 and then 4 shields; grow in 5). I've set it in 2, as a worker drops pop.
Guimarães: Build anything you like.

Azteca and the new land

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/azteca_1950_bc.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/portugal_small_1950_bc.JPG (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/portugal_big_1950_bc.JPG)
Click image for larger version.

And of course: The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-1950bc.SAV
)

BigNHuge

Jul 22, 2004, 04:50 PM

Good plays there.

The Pyramids are a good play because if we dont get them, we can switch over to something else. Plus, if we have Lit and lose it, we can switch to GL and ride the tech wave while massing culture/markets/units.

Good plays indeed.

I can't believe that there are 3 civs on our continent. Makes the challenge that more fun :lol:

BigNHuge

Jul 22, 2004, 07:03 PM

jb~ is it ok if i play my ten turns now? I will be away from civ until sunday (maybe monday) I would like to play one more round of turns before i leave. (I will have internet access on Saturday.)

All~ Keep up the great work. :goodjob:

BigNHuge

Jul 22, 2004, 07:05 PM

I will play 10 turns and write them up here, if you dont like them, then have jb do those ten. Thanks.

BigNHuge

Jul 22, 2004, 08:20 PM

Turn [0]- Take a look at the cities MM, Excellent. Notice only Mr. Temujin is up a tech (Mysticism). Obviously from popping but i dont know how much more popping we'll get now :(

Turn [1]- I notice the sad sad truth that there is NO HORSES in our area. Not even close. This will definantly slow our advances down. (No knights Sniff... :( :( ) No new techs for AI yet.

Turn [2]- Lissabon Settler-->Warrior. As you have described Rik, this is a warrior/settler factory. Ill keep it that way. Send them to get that Ivory ASAP. Will be there in 8. Scouts go 1NW one NE. Curraghs go around too. No new techs for AI yet.

Turn [3]- Good news! We actually will hit another hut next turn. Great news. Others do there thing. Lissabon grows to 3. Lux is at 20% right now. No new AI techs yet.

Turn [4]- Lissabon Warrior-->Settler. In 5. Growth in 2. Juan gives us a "Skilled Warrior" from the hut. He heads N. Bad news. Mongolia picked up Horseback Riding. They are up 2 techs now. Visible techs. (Could have Poly by some off chance.)

Turn [5]- Nothing special here. Just movement and exploring. No new AI techs.

Turn [6]- Lissabon and Oporto both grow to 4. Lux to 40%. Another new hut for Jaun next turn. Come on tech! No new AI techs.

Turn [7]- We have Mysticism. Jaun pops and notices nothing else special. Warrior/Settler for Ivory in one turn. No new AI techs.

Turn [8]- Lissabon Settler-->Warrior. Send this pair to a selected site on the dot map. Cant remember which but one of them. Temujin is a Science machine! He's got IW.

Turn [9]- Oporto Settler-->Worker Hes going to a good site too. Lux to 20%. We will soon have that Ivory. Lagos is set up this turn controlling us the Ivory. Will connect ASAP. Set to build Spearman. No new AI techs.

Turn [10]- Lissabon Warrior-->Settler. Also, we find the Mongolian homeland! Very distant from ours. No immediate threat to us. No new AI techs yet either.

Well here are my 10 turns. If jb does 10 and we like them better lets go with them. I just wanted to contribute more before I go. We have a new lux, a new town, and 2 more promising towns within our grasp now. These were profitable turns I believe. Heres the save. Problems getting a pic loaded though :(

The Save- GO PORTUGUL! (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-_1625bc.SAV)

Rik Meleet

Jul 22, 2004, 08:36 PM

We've seen dark-red borders !!

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/red_border_small.JPG (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/red_border_big.JPG)
Click image for larger version.

jb1964

Jul 22, 2004, 11:05 PM

Got it. Just finished 6 turns on PTW SG. Will play tomorrow evening.

jb1964

Jul 22, 2004, 11:52 PM

Edited to place turn in order w/ other comments/feedback.

SJ Frank

Jul 23, 2004, 06:47 PM

Hi guys, just checking in.

I think Guimarães will need to do a temple before building any wonder, otherwise, it would have only one Bg in range. That was why I had the original dot where it was.

jb1964

Jul 24, 2004, 07:51 AM

The Save, 1375BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01_1375BC.SAV)

Pre-Flight: Nothing much – 1625BC, Turn 55
IBT: Sumerians are building the pyramids and Spain built the Colossus. I think we should consider our Pyramids build a GL pre-build

Turn 1, 1600BC, Turn 56
Bust some fog and then watch settlers move to a pre-determined spot.

Turn 2, 1575BC, Turn 57
Oporto worker to worker
We meet the Byzantines (dark red boarders). They are up IW.
We trade Gil The Wheel for 140g.
Found Emerita where settler stops. Warrior
Change pyramid to temp. We won’t have the luxuries to keep the populace happy to be effective. Also should consider putting a granary here first as well.
Bump research to 80% because we have the cash
We are weak compared to all so I expect a demand coming sooner or later.

Turn 3, 1550BC, Turn 58
Worker moverments

Turn 4, 1525BC, Turn 59
Lisabon, settler to settler
Found Sagres
We meet Elisabeth
Hire an entertainer in Oport to counter growth. We still get the worker and growth next turn.
No deals

Turn 5, 1500, Turn 60
Oporto, worker to worker
Lux slider down to 50%, Writing in two.

Turn 6, 1475BC, Turn 61
Lux slider still at 50%, Writing in one.
Roading down to Guimares

Turn 7, 1450BC, Turn 62
Writing comes in.
Warrior to warrior in Emerita
Found Coimbria
Writing comes in, checking around to get a bead on what to research next. Setting our sites for Philosophy as we are the first to writing and have a good shot the free tech. Philosophy in 15. We could drop that down to 12 w/ another warrior in Guimares.

Trade Myst to Iroquois for 24g.

Turn 8, 1425BC, Turn 63
Another worker in Oporto. Building worker.
Theodora’s close to writing. She’ll only offer up 30g’s for it. Others are willing to cough up IW and gold. We’ll check back next turn and trade around before it loses value.

Turn 9, 1400BC, Turn 64
Prices for writing remain the same. Mongols are offering best price but I don’t want to make him any more advanced that he is. However, if it’s going to get shopped around than we might as well be the ones getting the cash.

Turn 10, 1375BC, Turn 65
Movement and stuff.
Trade opportunities remain the same with Theodora offering on 30g. Why is that remaining constant?

Here’s my proposal: trade Writing + gold to the Mongols for HBR; trade Writing to England for IW + gold; trade writing to Theodora for gold. With this we should still be able to research at 80%. However, I would hold off on the trade for a few more turns as we’re still 12 turns from Philosophy and we could be screwing ourselves out of the free tech.

Ivory should come on line in a turn or two. We need to road down to Guimaraes, which just grew. We have a spare warrior that could take MP duty there. I hire a revenuer in Guimaraes because I do not want to drop our research rate.

The Save, 1375BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01_1375BC.SAV)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/port1.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/port2.jpg

BigNHuge

Jul 24, 2004, 01:49 PM

Hi all Great turns jb. so now to SJ.

I wont be civ capable until sunday maybe monday. Have fun all

Rik Meleet

Jul 24, 2004, 02:12 PM

Some things I noticed:
Guimaraes: pop-rushing a temple can help ;)
If we are going to produce other units than warriors; I prefer them build in cities which have barracks (no cities yet).
Oporto is an ok 3 turn worker-pump. We might need another worker-pump (Emerita perhaps??)
Our SoZ Wonder-city "Guimaraes" needs connecting and improving. Send some workers over.
I don't think going north-west will gain us a lot any more. Let's have Lagos as the norht-western border-city. The north-east is viable and also filling our lands may be wise.
I'd switch Lissabon to settler and keep it there. If I calculated correctly it jumps from 4 to 2 and grows back to 4, finishing a settler every 5 or 6 turns.

Good turns BTW.

SJ Frank

Jul 24, 2004, 03:23 PM

I still don't have civ access :( , so please skip me until monday. Mean while, some comments.

Oporto is an ok 3 turn worker-pump. We might need another worker-pump (Emerita perhaps??)

Emerita does not have food bonus, so it does not make a good worker pump. Oporto can make a 2-turn worker factory, after we settle site 3 on the old dot map. BTW, Emerita is one-off from the dot map, did we have a good reason for moving it? Once again, because it's moved, it will need to build a temple in order to access its best tiles. I'd much rather build those 60-shield temple a bit later in the game, after our workers have a chance to improve all the terran.

I don't think going north-west will gain us a lot any more. Let's have Lagos as the norht-western border-city. The north-east is viable and also filling our lands may be wise.

Settling is always easier than conquering. Every city that we settle towards the enemy also takes production away from them, and every city counts in unit support when we switch to Republic. So let take advantage of our high food start and grab as much territory as possible.

I'd switch Lissabon to settler and keep it there. If I calculated correctly it jumps from 4 to 2 and grows back to 4, finishing a settler every 5 or 6 turns.

Ha, JB, you messed up our settler factory :p . I see in your turn log 1525BC that you went Settler->Settler. The correct thing to build in Lisbon is warrior->Settler->warrior->Settler... until all of our lands are filled. When you build 2 settler in a row, although the 2nd settler came sooner, the later settlers will be delayed, because you have made the size of the town smaller, so that it is able to make less shields.

I'd like to get Lisbon back to the warrior/settler factory. We'll need to run a bit of lux for the wonder city anyways, so city size should be a concern here. By running the city at size 3-5 instead of size 2-4, we essentially get a free warrior out of it.

Trade opportunities remain the same with Theodora offering on 30g. Why is that remaining constant?

Maybe because Theodora only has about 35 gold in her pocket? When we trade Writing, make sure that we are ensured of getting philo. That means making sure that Philo isn't the cheapest tech for the mongos after the trade. Don't want them to pop it out of a hut.

And Rick, it seem like I disagree with you so much, it's because your posts are so thought provoking ;) . Besides, I do agree with everything that I didn't comment on...

Edit: just saw Big's post. Do you guy want to wait for me until Monday night. or do you want Rick to take it

jb1964

Jul 24, 2004, 03:55 PM

Sorry to screw over the settler factory.

I built Emerits when the settler finally stopped. Since it was on go-to orders I figured the last leader had sent it to a pre-agreed upon site.

Agreed, we want to protect our advantage on Writing to the last.

When I checked the dot-map we were already off from what had been proposed so I figured we were in "free-form" mode.

Do what you want regarding turns. Ya'll have been keeping a pretty good pace.

Rik Meleet

Jul 24, 2004, 05:03 PM

And Rick, it seem like I disagree with you so much, it's because your posts are so thought provoking ;) . Besides, I do agree with everything that I didn't comment on...I have a thick skin, I can take a lot of critisism. That is 1 part that is needed being a mod. I don't mind and I'm not easily offended.

If the team wants, I can take it.

Just don't mess up my name. It's Rik, not Rick ...

BigNHuge

Jul 24, 2004, 06:39 PM

Go ahead RIK. take it buddy

SJ Frank

Jul 25, 2004, 03:27 AM

Yes Rik :blush: , please take the game.

Rik Meleet

Jul 25, 2004, 06:37 AM

I will; hopefully within the next 24 hours.

Rik Meleet

Jul 25, 2004, 12:17 PM

Playing ...

Rik Meleet

Jul 25, 2004, 01:34 PM

IHT:
Guimarães needs exactly 20 shields for a temple -> poprushed it.
Switch Lissabon back to settler. Sagred to barracks.

IBT: Oporto worker -> worker
Guimarães temple -> Pyramids

[1] 1350 BC. Curragh spots dark blue borders.

IBT: Ivory-road completed.
Emerita warrior -> granary

[2] 1325 BC. Found Leiria. Starts warrior
Send warrior from Emerita to Guimarães. Scouting warrior finds more Ivory. SoZ needs hurrying. Curragh meets the Germans. They are up Iron working, but down Alphabet, pottery, The Wheel and Ceremonial burial. Rik smells trade !

Sell Alphabet to them for Iron Working + their whole treasury (14 gold). We have Iron fairly close; a few tiles SW of Emerita. Byz have learned writing... Byz most likely go for MapMaking to get their UU.
Switch Oporto from worker to settler; we need to grab a lot of sites ASAP.

IBT: Germany isn't too happy with our trespassing curragh. Why you !!! It gave you the alphabet !! O.K. just passing, just passing.
Sumerians start Oracle.

[3] 1300 BC. uneventful turn.

IBT: Lissabon grows to size 4, finishes settler and jumps back to size 2. Starts another settler.

[4] 1275 BC. We reach the north-west of our continent (I can no longer call it an island).

[5] 1250 BC. Keep MM-ing cities.

[6] 1225 BC. Warrior reaches Guimarães, I can now down lux to 10 %. Lower Sci to 70%, still getting Philosophy in 4, but at +4gpt instead of -3gpt. MM cities.

IBT: Oporto grows to size 5, finishes settler and drops to size 3. starts worker.
Coimbra warrior -> warrior
Leiria warrior -> warrior

[7] 1200 BC. Sending Leiria's warrior to Iron-city location. Coimbra's fortifies. Now I can up science to 90%, shaving 1 turn off of Philo-research. Lux to 0%. Mongols know writing now as well.

[8] 1175 BC. Moving settlers to their locations. Philo in 1 and none of the civs we know have Philo yet.

IBT: Philo is learned, choose expensive Code-of-Laws as new tech and ...
We learn it !! We are the first. Next tech: Maths for SoZ.
Sagres barracks -> spear

[9] Found Évora, our Iron-city. starts warrior. Scout finds goody hut !

IBT: Germany wants our curragh out. OK. England wants our scout out. OK
Lissabon settler -> settler
Oporto worker -> worker

[10] Found Braga -> starts worker. Moved the settler in Lissabon across the river.
Scout pops the hut and gets 50 gold.

---------------
Next player can decide what to do with the Lissabon settler. There are soe tech-trades possible (Mongols have horesback-riding) but I do not consider them useful. We have no horses and Byz is likely to finish MapMaking sooner or later. By careful MM-ing of Lissabon you can get settlers there in 6 turns.
Size 2: 2 turns of irrigated cows and 1 turn of mined BG. => city grows. Then just have the city 3 turns on 6 shields => city grows to size 4, finishes settler immediately and drops back to 2, restarting the chain.

Oporto can be a 2 turn worker-pump, if we mine the new wheat. It gets 10 food in 2 turns + 8 shields. The growing to size 3 gives it 2 extra shields => worker done and back to size 2.

Improve the Guimarães area; it's our SoZ-site. Send some warriors there from Coimbra for extra MP.

Good Luck !

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/minimap_1125_bc_small.JPG (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/minimap_1125_bc_big.JPG)
Click image for larger version.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/core_1125_bc_small.JPG (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/core_1125_bc_big.JPG)
Click image for larger version.

The Save 1125 BC. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01_1125BC.SAV)

jb1964

Jul 26, 2004, 08:46 AM

Well done!

Glad to have captured Philo first.

BigNHuge

Jul 26, 2004, 05:01 PM

Back with Civ!! :) Got it now so i will play right now. Copied the notes to remember everything. P.S. :goodjob: on Philo!

BigNHuge

Jul 26, 2004, 06:24 PM

Ok just finished.

Turn [0]- Take a look around at our land mass, power, size and diplomacy. I would think our enemies will demand soon.

Turn [1]- Iroquios start Oracle. England gets MM. Luckly they are willing to give us MM + 28g for Writing. Great deal for us! Micromanage cities to Rik's instructions. SoZ in 58 turns. Currency in 28.

Turn [2]- Coimbra Warrior--> Barracks. Leiria Warrior--> Worker. Uneventful Turn.

Turn [3]- Oporto Worker--> Worker. every three turns is nice. Iroquios start Pyramids. Mongols start SoZ. Might need to check into that in near future. Wont do it now though. The city has irrigated sugar and a lot of hills. So i dont think its entirely worked for shields yet. Our SoZ in 42. Will me new civ next turn. Most likely Korea.

Turn [4]- Evora Warrior--> Barracks. Sagres Spearman--> Spearman. Hes going to a new city spot. Meet Korea. They are down mysticism, MM, and Writing. (CoL and Philo also :) Thanx philo!) No trade possible.

Turn [5]- Uneventful. Nothing new here.

Turn [6]- Iroquios demand writing. They outnumber us greatly in military most likely so we will cave for now. They shall pay dearly for this. Lissabon Settler--> Settler. Oporto Worker--> Worker. No new AI techs. Nothing else eventful.

Turn [7]- Lagos Barracks--> Spearman. Leiria Worker--> Worker. Nothing eventful/No new AI techs.

Turn [8]- Found Faro. Set to temple. A spearman is on the way. No special things here again.

Turn [9]- Several city changes. Micro management. Scouting, etc. No new techs our anything.

Turn [10]- Spain finishes The Oracle. Only the Byzannties change a build :). No new builds. Great news. Well these were my turns.
For the next player- Keep staying the course. We have set our selfs up for a good jump on the SoZ and getting good veteran units. Settler/Warrior pair in a north city. Was going east to oasises but Iroquios get them.

Here is the pic and the save.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-_825bc.jpg

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-_875bc.SAV)

SJ Frank

Jul 27, 2004, 03:31 AM

I'm back, and I've got it

SJ Frank

Jul 27, 2004, 05:39 AM

In the year 875 BC, our game just became a tiny bit more interesting

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-SoZ.jpg

The barbaric Mongols, some how, were able to turn their half-complete pile of heathen junk known as the Oracle into the Statue of Zeus.

Upon sighting this monstrosity, I call forth a council of the Portuguese princes, where I will need input regarding what to do with our wonder pre-build.

I here by list 3 options in order of preference:

1) Swap to granary right now, wasting 6 shields, followed by a barrack, then start building units.

PRO: Get ready for war now, potentially least wasteful of shields.

CON: We get no wonder

2) Swap to a palace pre-build for the Sun Tzu's Art of War, then SLOW the pre-build down so that we have at least 40 turns before it runs out.

PRO: chance to get a very nice wonder for our theme

CON: If the wonder cascade isn’t broken by then, we’ll have no chance. If the AI don’t research Feudalism in time, we’ll have no chance. There is just a great chance to loose a lot of shield for nothing.

3) Swap to a palace pre-build, speed it up, and hoping to get any one of the Ancient Age wonders that are left.

PRO: chance to get a wonder

CON: none of the other AA wonders are very useful to us, and the chances of getting them are not good, IMO.

4) Any other ideas…

Rik Meleet

Jul 27, 2004, 06:15 AM

@ SJ Frank. There are 2 other AA wonders I like, Mausolleum of Maussollos and Great Library. We still have a monopoly on Philosophy and the AI doesn't research literacy often. I think we still have a good chance of nailing a Wonder in that city. Currency is learned in about 11 turns and Literacy in about 13 more. 24 turns is fast enough to make sure we'll hold on to a monopoly on some techs. And when Guimarães grows (where is that 2nd warrior??) and is improved, the building pace just quickens.

BigNHuge

Jul 27, 2004, 11:11 AM

About that second warrior, i accidently sent him to Lissabon. Sorry. Well this is a terrible blow. I say there are 4 AA Wonders I like.

1.) Great Library.

Pro- No research=more money for units=The Republic. Another backward wont get it and become a world power.
Con- It really only seems like the Mongols and the Byzanties can keep up with us in tech at the moment. Some civs dont have the basic techs yet i.e. Alphabet, Pottery. If we snag the GL, odds are we wont pop techs very well. If memory serves correct we are ahead of everyone 2 techs. (Philo/CoL.)

2.) The Temple of Artimes.

Pro- Culture for our cities. We wont need to build culture. Can focus on building units in our front cities, and infastructure/prebuild for another wonder in back cities.
Con- It ends at Education. Then its only with a few gpt.

3.) The Hanging Gardens.

Pros- Gives us 3 happy or content (cant remember) in the city its built, 1 in all others. And its good until Steam Power.
Con- It needs Monarchy which would take a 30 turn research at least.

4.) The Pyramids. (Maybe)

Pro- Granary in all cities. Plan and simple.
Con- Someone either already has it or will get it within 10 turns.

Or we could go to Fuedilism and pray. But that would not happen. We are still 4 techs back of Middle Ages. (Currency, Construction, Poly, HBR)

Thoughts/Comments?

BigNHuge

Jul 27, 2004, 11:16 AM

Also its ok if they do have SoZ. Because the AI Always keeps ACs in there Capital. So we could take a few cities with 3 pronged attacks and sue for peace. But that wouldnt be the situation until we run right over those pesky Iroquios for some dang horses! Portugul WILL prevail or die trying!

:ar15: the Iroquios. :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: the rest. :lol: itll be ok.

jb1964

Jul 27, 2004, 01:49 PM

I'm voting for granery and racks. We need to keep the Iroquois from strongarming us out of any more techs as well as getting ready to kill them.

jb1964 <------ On deck
Rik Meleet <------ Played befor BnH
BigNHuge <------ Just Played
SJ Frank <------ Playing

BigNHuge

Jul 27, 2004, 01:52 PM

Ok thats a good choice too, but i do want a Sun Tzu's. This will combat the large number of Mongolian veteran 5/5 ACs. Plus, We should start considering when we would like to hit the Iroquios cities.

Rik Meleet

Jul 27, 2004, 03:47 PM

I won't be able to play anymore till about August 9th. I'm on holiday. Skip me please.

BigNHuge

Jul 27, 2004, 05:15 PM

Ok will skip.

Heres the line up.

Rik------> Skipped till August 9th
BigNHuge------> Just Played
SJ Frank------> Playing
jb1964------> Next

SJ Frank

Jul 27, 2004, 05:40 PM

Enjoy your holiday Rik, we'll keep your seat warm for you.

Sounds like JB voted for Granary, BigNHuge likes Sun Tzu's and Rik prefers MoM or the GL. I think I've got the tie breaking vote then :lol:

I agree with BigNHuge in that Sun Tzu will be very useful for us, but my instinct tell me that our pre-build in Guimarães is too early for Sun Tzu. Our palace pre-build is only 300 shields. A good wonder building town will average 10 spt, than means we should start our pre-build roughly 30 turn before we plan to get Feudalism.

Another part of the Sun Tzu puzzle is the AI wonder cascade. This being Emperor difficulty, we'll need a good head start on the AI if we want any wonders. If the current batch of wonders complete within the next 10-20 turns, it will cause the next set of AI wonder to start too soon, then our chances of getting Sun Tzu will not be good.

The wonder cascade is not something that we can control, but it is something that we can watch for. For example, assuming that the current cascade is broken, if we start our pre-build, and 5 turns later 6 AIs start building the Hanging Garden, we might as well forget about Sun Tzu's, because that 2nd best HG build will becomes Sun Tzu. However, if the AIs start Hanging Garden before the current cascade is broken, then we may get a clear shot at Sun Tzu's, because all the wonders before Sun Tzu will probably be eaten up by the cascade.

My plan is to stop the current pre-build in Guimarães, and start another prebuild in Emerita after build a temple first. I won't start building fighting units yet. We can't connect our iron for another dozen turns at least. First and formost, I will start pre-building for marketplaces where ever I can, then after currency is researched, I will research Republic at our best rate (debatable, republic or monarchy? I want to hear your comments. Since we have marketplaces, I'm favoring Republic).

I will finish my turns later tonight. Mean while, I'm still open to suggestions.

BigNHuge

Jul 28, 2004, 12:13 AM

ok. well i think if we are getting those marketplaces we have to go republic. they wont have the same affect in monarchy. as for building fighting units for attacking, here are my thoughts.

We will need a fairly large amount of units to even start to dent our continent. Im thinking we should start our attack ASAP when Fuedilism comes in. Maybe a large scale upgrade complete with MI and catapults (later trebs). We will need at least 30 of each. My thoughts are that we can have a 2 pronged attack into the Iroquios homeland. 1 would consist of 6 veteran spear, 20 medival infantry and 20 trebs. 2 would 3 vet spear and 10 of the others. A total of 69 units.

Well that would be a good idea.

Also, I think that we can fit a good 5-7 cities in our back/western area. We definantly settle that ASAP. Never know when the AI will get a galley and get one there.

When we do start building for war, we should have the northern cities focus on military while the back cities produce infastructure. This is obvious, of course.

Thoughts/Comments?

:hammer: :hammer: :hammer: the Iroquios!!! :cool:

SJ Frank

Jul 28, 2004, 03:53 AM

Reign of Prince Francis the II

pre-flight - 875 BC

Looking through the cities, I change the entertainer in Coimbra to scientist, saving one turn off of Currency.

I also turn up science to 100%, saving another turn. We are now losing -6 gpt, but the treasury can handle it.

Checking diplomacy, we can get HBR from Iros for Math, do we help them? no way!

I also wake the 2 workers cleaning up vocanic ashes near Emerita (22 worker turns to clean up a tile that won't be used), and send them to road the iron mountain.

IBT - Well well, the Mongos build the SoZ from the Orale cascade. We never had a chance.

turn 1 - 850 BC

scouts and boats move. We contact the Incans and Arabs, who are on the same continent as the Koreans. They are up poly but down writing. I will trade with them later.

Move the settler that was in Largos towards the incense hill on the coast.

Emerita to Temple, Guimaraes to Granary, as discussed.

Oporto swap to warrior, with another lux coming online in 2 turns, that city can grow a bit.

Trade: Writing to Abu for Poly + 126 gold, no other deals, Incans are researching Writing though.

Then spend some cash to build an embassy with Mongols. They could be an ally come time for war, and I want to see whom they have contact with.

turn 2 - 825 BC

Lissabon settler->curragh, I want to grow Lissabon a bit too. The new settler heads west.

Incans get writing by themselves, should have traded with them. no new techs this round.

turn 3 - 800 BC

turn 4 - 775 BC

Oporto is now a 2-turn worker factory at size 5.

Bismark got HBR this turn. We take it along with all of his gold for Pottery + CB

turn 5 - 750 BC

Lissabon: curragh->barrack. Lissabon can operate at size 4-6, so I grow it some more.

Trade: Math + HRB to Theodora for Map Making + 14 gold, finally!

Sargres immediately switches to harbor, to be helped with a chop.

turn 6 - 730 BC

found the city of incense coast.

borders of two new civs are sighted

after a chop, Sagres will finish its harbor in 2 turns, the new curragh will upgrade first before sailing

turn 7 - 710 BC

found Sao Paulo, starts on courthouse, for lack of a better build, veto-able (more like a veto please :crazyeye: )

contact Cathage and Spain, both are behind us in techs

turn 8 - 690 BC

Byzantines start the Great Lighthouse, and Germany finishes the Pyramids. That's fine, better Germany than some other really strong civilization.

turn 9 - 670 BC

Incans cascade to the ToA. Byzantines switches to the Great Lighthouse and completes it. :eek: But that's it! That's all for the wonder cascades.

The only wonders under construction are the ToAs by the Incans, the Spainards and the Arabs. The Incan ToA is left-over from the Pyramids, so their ToA will complete sooner than the others.

Currency -> Republic in 23 turns, 100% science, -8gpt

Several cities swap to Marketplace.

Emerita finishes temple, starts on a palace pre-build.

turn 10 - 650 BC

nothing interesting...

Notes to next leader:

The reg warrior S of Oporto should go into Lissabon next turn.

All builds are veto-able.

Lissabon can now oscillate between size 4 and 6, building sword/settler pairs. After the current barrack completes, you need to start it on a settler right away. We have only 4 more city sites left.

Oporto's worker farm needs management after completion of each worker, just make sure that you zoom into the city view when the worker production prompt comes up, and move the citizen from the forrest to the roaded-river-grassland tile.

If we could help it, we would like the Great Wall and the MoM to fall with the current wonder cascade. It means that if the ToA hasn't been build yet, and we got our hands on Construction, consider trading Philosophy and Construction to the civs that are building the ToA.

There is a horse north of the Iro's territory near the conscript warrior. If we could block the Iroquis from settling it, it would be very helpful. Ideally, we would like the English to settle that site, but that's probably just wishful thinking...

Here's the save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-650bc.SAV), jb1964 is next.

SJ Frank

Jul 28, 2004, 04:30 AM

We will need a fairly large amount of units to even start to dent our continent. Im thinking we should start our attack ASAP when Fuedilism comes in. Maybe a large scale upgrade complete with MI and catapults (later trebs). We will need at least 30 of each. My thoughts are that we can have a 2 pronged attack into the Iroquios homeland. 1 would consist of 6 veteran spear, 20 medival infantry and 20 trebs. 2 would 3 vet spear and 10 of the others. A total of 69 units.

Boy, that's a big army. We will build troops until we can't support them anymore, then fight until we have no more troops :lol:

Also, I think that we can fit a good 5-7 cities in our back/western area. We definantly settle that ASAP. Never know when the AI will get a galley and get one there.

If we let Lissabon handle all the settler duties, it will take about 30 turns to fill the land at 6 turns per settler. May be we could take Oporto off worker duties for a few cycles?

:hammer: :hammer: :hammer: the Iroquios!!! :cool:

BigNHuge

Jul 28, 2004, 08:21 AM

Well i put that much so we knew we could have some leftovers incase of a Mongolian attack. They are prone to do that.

jb1964

Jul 28, 2004, 09:44 AM

Kids will be going to bed early tonight since tomorrow is swimming championships. This means I can get on the computer. :)

Didn't download. Didn't play. Expect posting early Saturday morning.

BigNHuge

Jul 29, 2004, 10:25 AM

Ok we can wait.

BigNHuge

Jul 30, 2004, 10:38 AM

We should discuss strategy soon. For when we hit the eventual attack periods

SJ Frank

Jul 30, 2004, 03:57 PM

I haven't given much thought about the attack. While scaning through the map for resources, I thought that with horse being so important for our conquest theme, and being so important to deny the Iroquois and the Mongols, we should make acquiring horse a priority. Also, if we could capture both Irons from the Iroquois, it should allow us to finish them off at our leisure.

SJ Frank

Jul 30, 2004, 04:47 PM

This is slightly off-topic...

I just found out that in order to use a custom avatar, I need to have a post count of at least 300 :eek: . Looks like it's going to be a while before I can exchange Gandhi for a real madman :lol: .

... and I have my own place to host the image too...

jb1964

Jul 30, 2004, 09:13 PM

Got it.

Computer's acting odd, mouse keeps flying off in odd directions, but I'll deal w/ it.

found Sao Paulo, starts on courthouse, for lack of a better build, veto-able (more like a veto please )

:lol:

If we could help it, we would like the Great Wall and the MoM to fall with the current wonder cascade. It means that if the ToA hasn't been build yet, and we got our hands on Construction, consider trading Philosophy and Construction to the civs that are building the ToA.

:cool: Never thought of that before. Very clever.

jb1964

Jul 31, 2004, 12:50 AM

The Save... (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-450bc.SAV)

Still can't figure out how to use attachments.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Port3.jpg [IMG]

The reign of “JB the Gaseous” begins…. Servant! Pass me another carbonated beverage!

Pre-flight, Turn 95, 650 BC
Nice set up. This is going to need MM’ing to a large to degree. Must pay attention.

IBT: Abu wants us outta his space. Damn, these guys are ignorant.

Turn 1, Turn 96, 630 BC
Lissabon, racks – settler. Population pissed. MP arrives and tells ‘em to shut up and get in line. Great timing!
I would really like those horses to the north. Not sure how we’ll be able to hold it so far from base. Keeping one iron from the Iroquois could be done but the other will have to be done by culture expansion or a simple pillage post war declaration.

IBT: Nuttin’
Turn 2, Turn 97, 610 BC
Oporto, worker – worker.
Evora, racks – sword

IBT: Zilch
Turn 3, Turn 98, 590 BC

IBT: Nada
Turn 4, Turn 99, 570 BC
Lissabon, settler – spear (will change to sword when iron hooked up)
Oporto, worker – worker
Sagres, harbor – spear
Writing for 78g to Korea.
No other trades to be had. Construction yet to be discovered.

IBT: Zed
Turn 5, Turn 100, 550 BC
Sagres switched to sword
Concerned about Emerita. It’s growing to 7 in 4 turns. No more MP benefits to be had. This is a pre-build for what?
No trades.

IBT: Squat
Turn 6, Turn 101, 530 BC
Guimaraes, market to ??? At 9spt I don’t like my build options as they all waste many shields. We’ll go for a racks and see what we get w/ growth to 6 next turn.
Coimbria hooked up. Scientist put to real work.

IBT: Zzzzzz
Turn 7, Turn 102, 510 BC
Lissabon, spear – settler. (Could have sworn I changed that to a sword)
Pop a hut and get Literature. Damn, I have been getting a steady diet of barbs. No other Civ has Literature.
Settler gets to just North of tobacco.
Lagos gets a nice road to generate another gold

IBT: Zero
Turn 8, Turn 103, 490 BC
The Sumerians are brain dead as they are still w/o Alphabet.
We’re still far ahead in tech. Nothing to trade unless we want to give away a tech for a song.
Oporto, worker - worker
Found Smokes (harbor). Spear on the way for MP duty.
No deal.

IBT: Yawn
Turn 9, Turn 104, 470 BC
Hire a geek in Emerita and Lagos.

IBT: Bedtime
Turn 10, Turn 105, 450 BC
Inca build ToA. No cascade.
Lissabon, settler – sword, move in workers to shop south of Lissabon to finish sword in 3.

Wrap-up: Didn't need as much MM'ing as I thought.

BigNHuge

Jul 31, 2004, 08:58 AM

Got it will play now.

BigNHuge

Jul 31, 2004, 09:44 AM

In turn 2, England got Construction. What are we willing to trade for it.

We can give Lit, CoL, and Philo straight up for it, saving currency and Poly. Or we can wait for Republic.

I wont finish until we get an answer here. Big part of the game. FEEDBACK PLZ :lol:

SJ Frank

Jul 31, 2004, 11:55 AM

The reign of “JB the Gaseous” begins…. Servant! Pass me another carbonated beverage!

:lol:

Lissabon, spear – settler. (Could have sworn I changed that to a sword)

Actually, you were right for not changing that spear to sword, because I miss-counted :blush: . Lissabon at size 4 can make a max of 28 shield in 3 turns, and requires quite a bit of MM to do so. It is not enough for a sword, so a spear is the best that it can do.

Turn 10, Turn 105, 450 BC
Inca build ToA. No cascade.

In turn 2, England got Construction.

Well, we were that close to pull off that coup.

Since England has Construction at monopoly, we definitely do not want to buy-in right now. Also, we would like to delay the other civs from having a wonder tech for as long as possible. It helps our Sun Tzu chances.

I like our position :goodjob:

BigNHuge

Jul 31, 2004, 12:27 PM

Another question, when we get Republic should i revolt right away?

jb1964

Jul 31, 2004, 01:24 PM

Since England has Construction at monopoly, we definitely do not want to buy-in right now. Also, we would like to delay the other civs from having a wonder tech for as long as possible. It helps our Sun Tzu chances.

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Not that it's not sound, I just have never focused on the wonder management aspect of the game before

It think you're saying that if there's not a wonder tech to be had that the other Civ's won't be banking sheilds for the one wonder and that when one Civ completes that wonder then we avoid the eventual cascade.

Hmmm, sounds good but I'll have to take a closer look at the other wonders available in between.

I would revolt to Rep straight away unless we're on the verge of completing a particularly important build.

BigNHuge

Jul 31, 2004, 03:37 PM

alright will finish up tonight.

BigNHuge

Jul 31, 2004, 05:46 PM

Well i take a look at all the basics. Still 2 more civs out there. We are way down in land mass but are up in alot of others. We around the middle in score. I like our position. :)
Also I note are we going to support all these soldiers and war in Republic? Thats another aspect we should consider.
Let the reign of BigNHuge take place.

IBT- Guimaraes Rax--> Sword. Lagos Sword--> Sword. Evora Sword--> Sword. Well Spain is officially the fastest builder in the world! They start and finish the Hanging Gardens in a matter of 1 turn!

Turn [1] 430BC- The only tech an AI has that we dont is Spain's Monarchy. Big deal. We will have a monopoly on Republic. Notice we can only support 5 more units. Might want to start disbanding units we dont need. Notice some new borders. Most likely France. Nothing really super special here though.

IBT- Oporto Worker--> Settler. We need to fill that back part for extra military. Hire a scientist in Guimaraes. Can now get republic in 6 at 90% by losing only 7gpt. England obtains Construction. Will not trade just yet.

Turn [2] 410BC- Nothing special here.

IBT- Lissabon Sword--> Settler.

Turn [3] 390BC- Those "new" borders I saw were Incan borders. My bad. Micromange some cities. Scout and nothing that special. No one else w/ Construction.

IBT- Incans ask us to leave. We apoligize and say we shall leave soon.

Turn [4] 370BC- Once again another snorer turn.

IBT- Guimaraes Sword-->Sword. English begin the GW.

Turn [5] 350BC- I just had a good idea. I hope you dont mind i did this. I noticed we had more land then the English. I established an embassy. We can now do this trade. ROP, CoL, Lit for Construction, 8 g, ROP. Now they still must research Philo, Currency and Polythesiem to enter next age. They are the closest science wise to us. We enter the Middle Ages. I hope you arent to mad. Also, for some reason, it kicked our rate to get Republic to 3 turns instead of 4.

IBT- Lissabon Settler-->Sword. Leiria Market-->Temple. The people show there love for their prince by expanding his love shack.... er Palace. New shag rugs.... Er grass is installed.

Turn [6] 330BC- Republic in 2 with 3gpt coming in. Much scouting. Nothing else real special. No real jumps in techs. Smaller countries getting things like writing, and Sumeria has Alphabet now.

IBT- Oporto Settler-->Worker. Spain begins MoM.

Turn [7] 310BC- Build new city. Find Russia (Red???). They are down the same visible techs as everyone else. No trade possible.

IBT- Republic comes in. The next turn will surely be a turn of Portuguese riots. Only Lissabon goes under though as I am quick enough to get the other cities under control.

Turn [8] 290BC- 4 turn Anarchy. Blessed really there. Also I have noticed that Mongolia is using there AC to go w/ Settlers to form new cities. Nothing else here. We are making 12gpt through taxmen.

IBT- Inca start the GW.

Turn [9] 270BC- Nothing. Its amazing how Anarchy slows you down.

IBT- Nothing.

Turn [10] 250BC- Nothing at all. No new AI techs. Everything normal. Here is the Pic/Save. A new Republic established in 2. :goodjob:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-_250BC.jpg
The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-_250BC.SAV)

BigNHuge

Jul 31, 2004, 05:47 PM

Go get em SJ!

SJ Frank

Jul 31, 2004, 09:08 PM

I've got it. Playing right now

BigNHuge

Jul 31, 2004, 09:51 PM

A bit off of this succession game, but when the next SGOTM comes around would you guys like to be a team? It always looks like fun.

SJ Frank

Aug 01, 2004, 03:04 AM

A bit off of this succession game, but when the next SGOTM comes around would you guys like to be a team? It always looks like fun.

I will take a look at the SGOTM forum at get back to you... but first, the game.

You said you wanted war? You said you wanted to plan for war?

Well, ready or not, here it comes :eek:

====================================

Turn 0 250 BC

Checking F2, we can trade with Mongols and Iroquois. I think we have a sea lane to the Byzantines, who have build the Great Lighthouse... but they don't have a single harbor :lol: . That's a situation I will watch diligently.

2 turns to Republic, and Guimaraes is starving! It is perfect timing to let it riot for one turn, saving some food.

I also change all taxmen to scientist -- we're going to research Feudalism, might as well get started right now.

move a few units, mostly spreading some of the MP units around, to be able to get all fighting units to the front line.

Press Enter.

IBT: Incans want us to leave. We tell them we're just passing through.
Iroquois found two cities right next to our units.

* * *

Turn 1 230 BC

A few units auto-move. I guess I'm just not used to it. I wake the two auto moving settlers. Otherwise, its the Anarchy, there isn't much to do.

IBT Iroquois start the MoM

* * *

Turn 2 210 BC

The Portuguese nation is now a glorious republic.

I went through all cities, putting all citizens back in place. In the end, we need 20% lux, can only run 30% science for Feudalism in 31 turns. Our pre-build will last 19-22 turns.

There is, however, a wine available from Spain. The coastal trade route goes through Iroquois terriory, I'm not sure if us declaring war on the Iroquois will break the trade route. Since we're not fighting the Iroquois for another 20 turns, I will get this Lux.

Can some more knowledgable players please enlighten me on this situation?

Since Spain, Zulus, Sumerians and Byzantines are on the same continent, I'm going to assume that they know each other. Sumer is way behind in tech. Byzantines have math. So I'll trade math for the Wine. Zulus has gold to offer for math, so I'll take that too:

Math + 5gpt + 2 gold to Spain for Wine
Math to Zulu for 4gpt + 234 gold

The Incans, Arabs and Koreans also share a continent, Incans are the most advance civ in that group (by Construction and Currency over Arabia and Construction over the Koreans), but Abu just got Monarchy. So naturally, I step in to broker for some money:

Currency + Construction + 39 gold to Abu for Monarchy
Monarchy to Inca for all of his 281 gold
Korea has only 20 gold to offer, so they get nothing

Carthage is to the south of the Arab continent and I don't know where the Russians are, so I don't trade with them right now.

The Germens and the Aztecs are stuck on their own island. They get nothing either.

The end result of the trade is that our lux can go down to 10%, science up to 50%, Feudalism in 20 turns while losing 22 gpt, with 576 gold in the bank. The timing should be fine with the Sun Tzu pre-build.

Speaking of the pre-build, why did we chop the forrest around Emerita. You know that forrest chops do not help palace and wonders, right? And we sure could use the forrest shields.

I move most of our excess unit to Largos, since it is under culture pressure now. Worker also migrate from the Emerita area towards Leiria area, which needs worker turns.

I disband our scouts and conscript warrior to save gold, we're now at -16 gpt.

Oporto switches to a settler, due in 4, otherwise, no changes.

Boy, this turn took a long time...

IBT Arabs start the Great Wall

* * *

Turn 3 190 BC

Berga: Marketplace -> temple
Sagres: after thinking about it, I switch its temple to Marketplace. This city does not need a temple until after the Aquaduct, and due to the Mountain mining going on around it. It can afford to build the Aquaduct after building a market place first.

A few swordsmen also complete this turn, more are ordered

-29gpt, Feud in 18.

IBT: oh, this is interesting, the Iroquois are threatening us for Polytheism, just as our 5 swordsmen are concentrated around Largos...

I tell him to stuff it, and he declares war !!!

* * *

Turn 4 170 BC

The game is on. :ar15: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:

A Iro Sword show up near Fargo.

First, the domestic actions: a forrest chop near Evora uncovers a BG. Good, mining is ordered. Braga switchs to Sword. Fargo will waste too many shields to switch to wall now, so I hurry its temple this turn. I also wake the worker near Fargo and send him back. Largo is switched to a catapult and hurried.

I then pay Temujin Polytheism for an alliance. He will pay me 32 gold on top of it too.
Liz will take 8gpt for an alliance, deal!

Our force gathered in Largos include 7 vet swords, 3 spears, one vet warrior to be upgraded, and a cat to be completed. That should be enough to at least hold the line.

The war declaration does break the trade vs. Spain. I don't know, does she take a rep hit? The war happiness though, substituts for the lux.

IBT: Inca demands HBR, do you even know where Portugal is? I tell him to stuff it, and he declares war!

Another sword and a warrior shows up near our borders.

* * *

Turn 5 150 BC

To take care of the Incan war, I build an embassy with the Arabs, they are building the GW, due in 28 at 8spt, has a temple, 3 spears and 2 cats in the city. 70% science, 30% tax, and no resources to speak of.

I also build embassy with the Koreans, Seoul is size 1, building settler, has Iron.

I buy Korea in against the Incans for construction. The Arabs want more than 15gpt, and that's too greedy for me. All I wanted was a war on the other continent.

Braga gets a short rush via spear, so the sword will finish in 2 turns.

Some swords complete, and more are ordered up, we have 10 swords now.

Fargo will be attacked next turn by a swords, but it has 2 vet spears inside, so it will hold. Renforcement will arrive next turn.

I also shut down science for one turn to collect more money.

IBT: now Abu demands Philosophy from me. I don't mind adding some more war happiness, but he actually backs off. Iros sword attack and beats our vet spear. More Iros swords show up.

* * *

Turn 5 130 BC

Cat fires near Fargo and misses. Oporto finishes the last settler, starts Marketplace. Lissabon is on a sword/worker 4 turn cycle.

Our stacks of swords and spears move into Fargo and Largos this turn.

IBT: we lose another spear at Fargo. An Iro galley shows up.

* * *

Turn 6 110 BC

Wall completes in Fargo.
Dial down lux to 0%, hire scientist in Guimaraes. Feudalism in 18 at +8gpt.
Send a stack of 5 swords + 1 spear after Akwesasne.
Braga completes a sword, reminding me that it does not have a barrack. :wallbash: It starts a cat.

IBT: Two Iro swords attack, we win both battle with help from the Wall :) . The Iro galley continues down the coastline.

* * *

Turn 7 90 BC

Found a new city in the tundra. Stack advances on Akwesasne.
Lissabon grows, so Lux back up to 10%, MM accordingly.
No units complete this turn, and the front is quiet.

IBT: So that's where their forces are, the Iros attack the Akwesasne stack with an archer and 2 swords, wining 2 of of 3 battles.

* * *

Turn 8 70 BC

Our Akwesasne stack attack, going 4 for 4, taking the city, leaving one red-lined sword defending against a spear next turn though.

Lissabon: sword->worker

IBT: The Iros spear do not attack! He moves into neutrual territory. And their galley turns back?

* * *

Turn 9 50 BC

Finally, some new info from the scouting galleys: The Zulus are at war with some one. Probably one of the missing civs.

Our stack steps into Akwesasne, securing it.

A new cat fires at the Iro Spear and hits!

IBT: a lot of Iros warriors move up to Akwesasne. One of them pillages the road.

* * *

Turn 10 30 BC

Cat fires-hits and Sword defeats the Iros spear.

Our swords start killing warriors at Akwesasne, losing one sword in the process. I leave the last warrior in order not to expose our sword to the Iros swords.

====================================

NOTES:

There is a single vet swords in the southern tundra playing zone defense.

The GL in Emerita is the pre-build for Sun Tzu. I think we have Sun Tzu in the bags. After feudualism, consider shutting off research and buying tech. We have alot more marketplaces then libraries (the exact number of libraries is somewhere around zero :rolleyes: ).

The two workers near Akwesasne were intended to build roads there, but we should probably hide them until the 3 Iroquois swords are delt with.

I've been doing a 4-worker-1-sword cycle in Lissabon. The idea is to farm worker out of Lissabon until it is down to size 4 with no food in the box, then spend 3 turns to build the sword, followed by the workers. It requires MM almost every turn to get it to +5 food. You can, of course, do with this city as you see fit. I'm just using one of the possibilities. For example, I think it can get to 15 spt at size 7, for a sword every other turn.

jb, may you live in interesting times :lol:

Here is the front:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH-Iroquois-Front-30BC.jpg

And the Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-30BC.SAV)

SJ Frank

Aug 01, 2004, 03:07 AM

I think I also played an extra turn! Notice the 2 turn 5's.

How about I just take 1 less turn during the next rotation.

BigNHuge

Aug 01, 2004, 09:11 AM

dont worry about it. Ill take 9 in my next rotation. So you can keep 10

BigNHuge

Aug 01, 2004, 09:22 AM

Speaking of the pre-build, why did we chop the forrest around Emerita. You know that forrest chops do not help palace and wonders, right? And we sure could use the forrest shields.

I chopped them to make it easier to slow down shield production, if needed.

BigNHuge

Aug 01, 2004, 09:25 AM

Didnt think we would be in a position to NEED shields to have an awesome pre-build. Sorry if it screwed us over.

SJ Frank

Aug 01, 2004, 01:58 PM

Didnt think we would be in a position to NEED shields to have an awesome pre-build. Sorry if it screwed us over.

Chopping the forrest wasn't nearly serious enough to "screw us over". Don't worry about it. It's just that those 10 shields per chop were wasted, which could have went to a marketplace or a MDI, after the wonder is done.

dont worry about it. Ill take 9 in my next rotation. So you can keep 10

You know, the screw up is mine, so I'd rather that you didn't play less because of it. If the turn-ending date isn't too important to you, then let me play 9 turns on the next rotation. Our rotations are fast enough that it doesn't make much of a difference. Besides, JB is up next.

I just had a good idea. I hope you dont mind i did this. I noticed we had more land then the English. I established an embassy. We can now do this trade. ROP, CoL, Lit for Construction, 8 g, ROP. Now they still must research Philo, Currency and Polythesiem to enter next age. They are the closest science wise to us. We enter the Middle Ages. I hope you arent to mad. Also, for some reason, it kicked our rate to get Republic to 3 turns instead of 4.

The idea of using the ROP was good. I also put the English embassy to use during my turns. Something that I would have done differently though, is that I would try to delay selling techs to civs on our own continent for as long as possible.

The two basic laws of trading are that 1) you pay double when buying a monopoly tech (monopoly = of all the civs that you know, only one of them knows that tech) , and 2) as more civs that you know knows a particular tech, the price to research/buy that tech goes down.

So the flaw in your trade was 1) you traded for Construction when it was a monopoly tech. If Construction wasn't a monopoly, then we could probably get Construction for one of our monopoly techs, letting the equation work in our favor. Flaw 2) was that you traded with England. By doing that, you made it easier for anyone that knows England to research those techs. As a result, the tech pace of our continent goes up. Since we want to :hammer: our continent, we'd like to keep everybody on it as backward as possible.

What I would have done in that situation, is that I would ask myself: when do I need Construction? The answer: when we come out of Anarchy, and we're getting ready to research Feudalism. So I would have delayed buying in Construction until my turn 2. If by then England still has Construction at monopoly, then all of this is a moot point. Otherwise, I would buy from a civ from another continent. We probably won't attack them until Industrialization, so in the mean time, it's okay if they get to knights 10 turns sooner.

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Not that it's not sound, I just have never focused on the wonder management aspect of the game before

It think you're saying that if there's not a wonder tech to be had that the other Civ's won't be banking sheilds for the one wonder and that when one Civ completes that wonder then we avoid the eventual cascade.

Hmmm, sounds good but I'll have to take a closer look at the other wonders available in between.

I think you got the idea. :)

BigNHuge

Aug 01, 2004, 03:05 PM

So the flaw in your trade was 1) you traded for Construction when it was a monopoly tech. If Construction wasn't a monopoly, then we could probably get Construction for one of our monopoly techs, letting the equation work in our favor. Flaw 2) was that you traded with England. By doing that, you made it easier for anyone that knows England to research those techs. As a result, the tech pace of our continent goes up. Since we want to our continent, we'd like to keep everybody on it as backward as possible.

I believe Byzanties have it as well. But i dont remember.

SJ Frank

Aug 02, 2004, 12:10 AM

I believe Byzanties have it as well. But i dont remember.

Aha, my bad. I guess Construction is just that expensive then. When I play solo, I'm usually so far behind at this point that I'm trading for Construction at close to last civ price. I guess it left me with the wrong impression.

SJ Frank

Aug 02, 2004, 01:17 AM

I just took a look at the SGOTM forum -- so it's playing the GOTM as a Succession Game. Sounds fun, I'm game. One thing about PTW though, I hate the RCP thing. I think that it is a blantant exploit of something that the designer didn't intend to put into the game, and that it takes more away from the game than it gives.

It looks like they are playing AWE this month, something I don't have on my resume yet...

jb1964

Aug 02, 2004, 10:40 AM

Isn't "May you live in interesting times." a curse!?

You handled the situation very well. I hope I'm up to par.

None of us should be too worried about an extra turn here or there because this game is going to go on for quite some time.

I'll grab the game this evening and get started.

jb1964

Aug 02, 2004, 10:44 AM

BTW, I'm game for jumping into the SGOTM. I have never played one.

BigNHuge

Aug 02, 2004, 12:04 PM

No i ment the NEXT SGOTM. Not the Rome one now.

BigNHuge

Aug 03, 2004, 09:36 AM

How many sources of iron/horses do the Iroquois have?

SJ Frank

Aug 03, 2004, 02:23 PM

They have 2 Irons, I think both are connected. One is north of their capital, the other is to the northeast, both are at least 2-cities deep. They are not easy to get to.

They have 1 horse in their sphere of influence. What I mean is -- It is in between a few of their cites, but the way their cities are founded, it will take a while to connect the horse. BTW, the horse is way to the north.

I'm going to be out of town for 2 days. I'll be back on Thursday night. Please skip me while I'm gone.

BigNHuge

Aug 03, 2004, 03:03 PM

kk will do.

BigNHuge

Aug 05, 2004, 08:40 AM

JB are you out of town also? Its been almost three days. O.o Just a post would be nice. :lol:

BigNHuge

Aug 05, 2004, 05:06 PM

Jb if you dont post by noon tomorrow, ill skip you. Then when you get back you can take your turn.

SJ Frank

Aug 06, 2004, 02:37 AM

I bet JB was just waiting for me to get back into town, so that I won't miss anything. Right? ;)

BigNHuge

Aug 06, 2004, 09:21 AM

Sure, i bet he'll go with that. :lol:

BigNHuge

Aug 06, 2004, 11:02 AM

Alright its been a few days, so im gonna take it now. Consider this my Got It.

BigNHuge

Aug 06, 2004, 12:15 PM

Did my first 2 turns. Now i have a Texas Hold Em' tournament on PokerStars. Were looking good. When we hold off this advancement, there isnt another coming! :) :) :) :hammer: the Iroquios.

BigNHuge

Aug 06, 2004, 01:02 PM

JB if you get back before i finish in the tournament, (Ill post when im done) Post your save/pic(s). Thanks

jb1964

Aug 06, 2004, 03:23 PM

Sorry to stall things out. RL crept up on me.

Let me know when I'm back in the order.

Always feel free to PM me and rattle my cage.

BigNHuge

Aug 06, 2004, 04:18 PM

Go after me then jb

BigNHuge

Aug 06, 2004, 04:37 PM

Turn [0] 30BC- Take a look around. Very nice position for us. Iroquios have there work cut out for them. :lol:

IBT- I'll stick to your idea of worker farm/sword. Its a very nice idea. Some movement of Iroquios galley to our south. GJ with the sword. I don't know if you guys know, but there is war in other parts in the world also! Russia is fighting the Zulu.

Turn [1] 10BC- Attacking of Iroquios advancing units is going along with some ok luck. We lose our Elite sword to a redlined veteren sword. Thems the brakes. Worker actions completed. Adcancing Iroquios Swords are destroyed.

IBT- Markets and swords complete. Making more swords/markets/workers.

Turn [2] 10AD- At the turn of the Millenium, we are in somewhat dire straits. The Iroquios are definantly sending more units to reclaim their cities. Took out the first row. Another set of 2 Vet swords and 1 reg spear will come in next.

IBT- Inca and Korea sign a peace treaty. Iroquios split their attack to Faro and Akwasnase. (Murdered the spelling on that i bet.)

Turn [3] 30AD- RNG is smiling upon us! We make an elite swordsman. Kill most of the Swordsmen in our territory and take no casualties. Worker actions and nothing else very special.

IBT- Spain demands Literature. We refuse. She declares War. She can't get to us. No biggie there. Builds and such finish.

Turn [4] 50AD- No unit losses. Iroquios lose 3 sword. Move 1 catapult, 4 swords out of Akwesasne to Allhegney.

IBT- Defending units holding. Times up north will be hard!

Turn [5] 70AD- Switch all tundra cities to defensive units. All done in 1. To hold invasions off. Up north we eliminate all invading swords/archers. No enemies in our territory. Next stop, the mountains near Faro and takng Allhegney.

IBT- Defenders hold. Nothing special.

Turn [6] 90AD- Nothing special. No attacks. An eery calm...

IBT- Iroquios advance more.

Turn [7] 110AD- Attack Iroquios units. Prepare for Iroquios Invasion next turn. Itll be dicey. Other than that nothing special.

IBT- Multiple beginnings of the GW. Iroquios movements.

Turn [8] 130AD- Beef up defense in Faro. Will be hit by 5 reg swords next turn. Both the Incans and the Arabians jump into the MA. Quite late for Emperor. Must be alot of war out there.

IBT- Units around Faro scatter. Mostly into their own land. Galley finally drops off 1 reg sword near town defended by a mere reg warrior. But, 2 vet swords are right there.

Turn [9] 150AD- The Iroquios army is larger then ours. I still havent seen any MW. Good. they do not have a GA yet. We could use one soon. Movements/MM. Kill invading sword down south.

IBT- A sword left in enemy territory kills 2 vet swords on defense. Thx RNG.

Turn [10] 170AD- Move units around, nothing entirely big.

Here is the save. Pics will not load. Request next player at end of his turns show: The front line, the country, and our military thx.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-_170AD.SAV)

BigNHuge

Aug 07, 2004, 12:02 PM

Heres an updated order...

Rik Meleet------>In the Hole (Gone until the 9th i believe)
BigNHuge------>Just Played
SJ Frank------>Up
jb1964------>On Deck

Cant make SJ skip a turn, sorry jb. You are up after him.

Rik Meleet

Aug 07, 2004, 01:56 PM

I'm back. :)

BigNHuge

Aug 07, 2004, 03:12 PM

excellent :)

SJ Frank

Aug 07, 2004, 11:03 PM

Welcome back, Rik!

Since I'm up, this is also a got it.

SJ Frank

Aug 08, 2004, 02:49 PM

Already then, here are my 9 turns. I didn't make as much progress as I wanted, taking only one city. Yet, I started an infrastructure push in the core, deeming us having "enough" units. Was I :smoke: ? I never said I was a good warmonger did I :crazyeye: .

* * *

Turn 0 170 AD

MM cities, change a few tiles here and there, mostly to avoid overflow when shield/food boxes are filled.

Check diplomacy, Arabs and Incans are in the middle ages! Byzanines are one tech away, and they are scientific. Let's hope they don't get Feudalism as their free tech.

Wonder situation: everybody is building the GL, when did they start? Byzanines, Arabs and Incan are also building the Great Wall (others are too, but they are not close to the Feudalism tech).

Tech situation: 2 turns to Feud at +23gpt, I could increase science to get it in 1, but in this case, we actually do not want to research it too early, since that will make it cheaper for the AI's to research it too.

Military:
We appear to have numerical advantage near Akwesasne, I want to try to push forward there.
We have 3 swords around Centralia. I guess will make a bigger stack of swords before we attack, because that city is on a hill.
Near Faro, we're using elite swords to guard the high ground. If we could hold it, it would do well for our kill ratio.

nothing else to do, press enter.

IBT: more Iros swords move up near Akwesasne, so much for our numerical advantage.

* * *

Turn 1 190 AD

a few cities complete their items. Those that lack barracks build cat. Those that were building swords start more swords, except for Largo, which starts a spear.

I retreat the force near Akwesasne, intending to use the cat and plain terran near it for a kill zone, other forcse converge on Centralia. A few troops auto moved. I stop them before they go any further.

And Big, why did you chop the forrest near Emerita again! Now that city is near max size with no shield tile to use.

IBT: Iros move towards Fargo, come on folks, Akwesasne is defended by only a sword, go get it, take the bait.
Incan built the GW, other civ cascade to the GL.

* * *

Turn 2 210 AD

Feudalism comes in. I start a lone scienist effort on Engineering. When Emerita grows to size 12, the scientist will move there.

In Braga and Sagres, I vetoed the military build for an Aqueduct, as both cities are painfully stuck as size 6.

Emerita switches to Sun Tzu, due in 25, though hopfully sooner once I mine over some the irrigations.

IBT: Iros troops move back towards Akwesasne. A reg archer leaves Centralia, where is he going?

* * *

Turn 3 230 AD

More MDIs are build and upgraded. no battles. quiet turn.

* * *

Turn 4 250 AD

Finally, Iros troops advance within range of our cats. The battle is joined.

9 of our cats hit out of 11 tries. All Iros exposed units are injured. A sword attack out of Faro, killing a sword. The city should be safe now. Then our new MDIs attack, killing 3 Iros sword without a scratch. The last Iros sword in left in the field to avoid counter attack. Pike from Largos leaves cities temporarily to cover exposed troops in the field.

Battle of Centralia: Elite sword leading the way, vet sword mopping up. The only 2 defenders are toast, the city is ours :D .

Leiria is somehow just 2 shields short of the next cat, I must have missed the MM somehow. No matter, I'll just swap to granary, due in 7 with growth in 8. (you can see the builder in me creeping in...)

Emerita has grown to pop 12... and is happy! Well, I guess Incense Coast keeps the scientist.

* * *

Turn 5 260 AD

Concentrate forces in Faro, getting ready for a Akwesasne expedition.
Cats fire and hit a few more Iro swords. No attacks though, for fear of counter attack.

The Centralia task force leaves the city, advancing northward. It is lead by an Elite sword and covered by a pikeman.

Build an embassy with the Byzantines. They are in a golden age :eek: . 16spt, MoM and GL, 50% science.

IBT: The Iros appear to be going after Centralia. They send a sword and an archer in that direction. A fresh stack of 4 Iros swords appear from the north.

* * *

Turn 6 270 AD

we bombard the sword and archer stack down, and 2 swords took care of them.

Byzantines are in the Middle ages, they pulled Engineering as their free tech. I think Sun Tzu is safe :goodjob: .

* * *

Turn 7 280 AD

More troop gather near the front.

Roughly half of our economy is paying for the army, so I...

Lissabon starts a marketplace.
Oporto reaches size 10 and starts a temple.
Evora reaches size 5 and starts an aquaduct.

I leave only 4 cities on military, and two of them are border towns squeezing our a cat once every forever :p

* * *

Turn 8 290 AD

Task force Allegheny is formed, consists of 2 pikes and 5 MDI. They move out.

Near Faro, concentrated cat fire took 5 Iros swordsmen down to yellow and red. 4 of them are killed by our swords and MDI, with no loss on our side.

IBT: Byzantine demand Republic. War!
Oops, AI will attack vet Pike with swords, we lose a pike in the Allegheny task force.

* * *

Turn 9 300 AD

Retreat! The Allegheny taskforce will arrive at its destination via the mountain route.

Here is our territory:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-300AD.jpg

The front:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-300AD-Front.jpg

The Allegheny taskforce is in Faro. I'd suggest travelling along the mountain ranges N->NW->W, exposing the force for only 1 turn before attacking Allegheny.

The Centralia taskforce still has some units with movement points left, though they are fortified. I would hold off the attack for this turn. Next turn, if they go near Faro, then we will have cat support. If they go near Centralia, we will be able to attack at the same odds.

And the save:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-300AD.SAV

jb1964

Aug 08, 2004, 03:32 PM

Got it.....

BigNHuge

Aug 08, 2004, 05:57 PM

How far do we want to go with this round with the Iroquois? Do we want Allegheny and sue for peace, hoping to get a city or two + gold, or do we want to continue? Both work fine for me. All I want is in the end for the Iroquois to be :hammer:

jb1964

Aug 08, 2004, 07:55 PM

Well, we’re at war w/ four civs and need to deal w/ the Iroquois in the short term. Need to avoid getting England or the Mongols on our butt.

Turns posted above...

BigNHuge

Aug 08, 2004, 08:10 PM

beautiful turns! :lol: Next time, POST YOUR MOVES!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

SJ Frank

Aug 09, 2004, 12:50 AM

Big, I think JB has played only 3 turns so far. He will most likely update his post after completing the turns...

... and these two posts of our's will most likely look silly after JB completes his post :lol:

BigNHuge

Aug 09, 2004, 07:27 AM

I know this. It just looked really funny last night! :lol:

@jb- Definantly get Engineering for Rep from SPAIN! The Incans dont need a new gov't. They are already powerful.

BigNHuge

Aug 09, 2004, 10:16 AM

yes that was cascade. We might have some trouble. If all else fails we can fall back on a FB or Leos.

BigNHuge

Aug 09, 2004, 01:44 PM

Actually we are probably only threatend by the Byzanties if they are building in there capital. If we have enough gold, investigate the cities where they are building Sun Tzu

jb1964

Aug 09, 2004, 02:03 PM

Will do the investigation.

I'll re-post my post once I'm done.

For the rest of the team, I was just putting down an outline to update so everyone could see progress and provide feedback. I Didn't mean to sow confusion.

For some unknown reason my computer decided to start ignoring my keyboard in the middle of the game. I had to reboot, several times, before I got it back. But by then I had lost my notes.

BigNHuge

Aug 09, 2004, 02:32 PM

All of you are invited to join BNH02- Thats one small step (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=96430) We need a good team for this Emperor Space Race as America.

jb1964

Aug 09, 2004, 09:07 PM

The save, 400 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-400AD.SAV)

Well, we’re at war w/ four civs and need to deal w/ the Iroquois in the short term. Need to avoid getting England or the Mongols on our butt.

IBT: England and Iroquois sign a peace treaty. Arabs finish building the GL. No cascade.

Turn 1-4, 310 AD
Take Allegheny. Kill off forces in the hills. The Iroquois really do have some nice land. It would be a shame to not to put it to better uses.

I'm not sure how the turn play goes but the IBT after the turn that the the Arabs finished the GL had several civs building Sun Tsu's. Was this a cascade or not?

Make peace w/ Spain and get Engineering, 79gpt, 4g for Republic. Paca’s still willing to give us gold for Republic but not enough for my liking.

We can’t investigate the Byzantines since we’re at war and they’re not interested in conversation.

IBT: Pike dies, we kill off a couple of swords.
Turn 5, 350 AD
Kill off some more Iroquois units using elites where possible. No Leaders.
No deals to be had. This world is full of some real stupid people.
Sun Tsu’s in 10. We’re competing w/ 5 other civs for this one. At this point we’re going to have a huge loss of shields if we miss out.

IBT: Kill off a few attacking swords in the hills.
Turn 6, 360 AD
Building and moving forces getting forces ready to tackle Niagara Falls.

IBT: Nothing
Turn 7, 370 AD
Lux back to 20% and MM cities. Sun Tsu’s in 8.

IBT: Nothing
Turn 8, 380 AD
Sun Tsu’s in 6.

IBT: Rats! All this purple is making it hard to spot Iroquois infiltrators. An Iroquois sword attacks our lone warrior in Braga and dies! Ha! I rename our warrior Lucky. Yikes! Some fire breathing Byzantine boat attacks our curragh and gets the short end of the stick. Our curragh is victorious and doesn’t take a single hit.

Turn 9, 390 AD
Our MI’s kill off a spear and three swords. Get one elite promotion.

IBT: Another Iroquois sword dies going for our reinforced units on the hills.

Turn 10, 400 AD
Kill off another sword by nailing him w/ two treb shots and knocking his block off w/ a vet MI. The only thing that can retaliate next turn is a spear. Not gonna happen.
Sun Tsu’s in 4.
Troops poised to take Niagara Falls (coastal, two ivory)

The save, 400 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-400AD.SAV)

SJ Frank

Aug 10, 2004, 01:14 AM

Yep, that was a cascade, but I think our Sun Tzu should be safe.

The GL is a 400 shield wonder, while Sun Tzu is 600 shields. During JB's turn 4, one of they AIs build the 400 shield wonder, meaning that the rest of them have less than 400 shields accumulated. In order for them to beat us, they will have to build at least 160 (200 * 80%) shields in 11 turns, roughly 15 per turn.

The Byzantine capital, when I build the embassy with them, had 16spt during their golden age, and it was working on a library. So I think we should be okay unless there is another civ enjoying their golden age right now.

jb1964

Aug 10, 2004, 07:43 AM

SJ, very good point.

Who's up next?

BigNHuge

Aug 10, 2004, 09:33 AM

Rik is up now. But i have to think. What could have triggered the Byzanties GA! Who are they at war with! And more importantly, who would use naval right now. The only "navy" I saw was us and Byzanties.

@all- What are we gonna do after Sun Tzus comes in. Are we gonna re-prebuild for some later wonder i.e. Leo's?

Rik Meleet

Aug 10, 2004, 09:44 AM

Me UP? OK I got it.

jb1964

Aug 10, 2004, 12:59 PM

I want to get a GL from our skirmish w/ the Iroquois and pop the FP up north.

Start a Leo's prebuild and see if there's a cascade when we get Sun Tsu's.

BigNHuge

Aug 10, 2004, 02:13 PM

I guess the order now is....

Rik- Now
Big- On Deck
SJ- In the hole
jb- Just played

Rik Meleet

Aug 10, 2004, 03:37 PM

I won't play today. It's back to work for me tomorrow. Perhaps tomorrow night. But I will play; I've already spend hours examining our position and making plans for the ongoing war with the Iro's.

Just give me some time.

BigNHuge

Aug 10, 2004, 03:41 PM

of course.

Everyone knows its the traditional 24 got it 72 play right?

SJ Frank

Aug 10, 2004, 04:16 PM

With regard to wonders after Sun Tzu, here's my 2 Italian Lira:

No more wonders until factories.

I'd like to start hand-building our FP in Emerita right-away. We are not militaristic, so leaders will not come easily for us. The first leader that we get will most definitely make an army. Who knows when the second leader will arrive. Emerita will take less than 20 turns to complete the FP, and it is in the general direction of our expansion. That's why it gets my vote.

Also, I see us being in Communism sometime in the future. So where we have the FP won't be very important (unless you can find a 120spt site somewhere on the map :D ).

BigNHuge

Aug 11, 2004, 10:47 AM

No more wonders until factories.

:wow: That is a little extreme! I was definantly hoping to pull in both Leo's and Smiths! unless im mistaken arent factories not until Industrial.

BigNHuge

Aug 11, 2004, 01:00 PM

The first leader that we get will most definitely make an army.

I agree.

I would like an offensive army to go deep within there territory to pick off random workers.

SJ Frank

Aug 11, 2004, 04:39 PM

:wow: That is a little extreme! I was definantly hoping to pull in both Leo's and Smiths! unless im mistaken arent factories not until Industrial.

Yeah, I think we can get any middle age we want, but I'm not sure we need any wonders.

Leo won't give us much benefit. It's not like we have 20 horsemen waiting to be upgraded to knights.

For the same amount of shield, I'd rather have Bach, which should equal at least one click on the lux slider for the rest of the game.

Smith, humm, that a good wonder. If/when we have 50+ cities, it's going to be worth more than 100gpt average for most of the game. If we get one middle age wonder, I guess Smith is the one that want.

Knights Templar, that's an interesting wonder for this game. If we want it, it's ours, just start a pre-build in Gurmaraes... But, it will take 30+ turns to build it, and 7 or 8 more turns for the Crusaders to reach the front. I'm not sure it's worth taking our best troop producer off-line for 30 turns. By the time it produces enough Crusader to make a difference, the battle for our continent should be over, and if it isn't over, then it would have been over had we used the same shields to produce knights instead of the wonder.

Anyhow, those are my thoughts on them wonders. My conclusions are:

Leos - no, too little benefit the justify the 600 shields

Knights Templar - no, if we had a pre-build going and can complete it soon, then it's good, but that's not the present situation.

All other wonders that benefits only one city on a huge map - no

A golden age fueled run at Smith - yes, if the military situation is good

Bach - only if we are :spank: -ing the Mongols ;)

BTW, If this was a builder game, we could even try to get every single middle age wonder, with the help of a golden age at Astronamy, it would be an interesting challenge :)

Rik Meleet

Aug 11, 2004, 07:18 PM

Well, I've played about 8 turns and I am in a situation I have to think hard and long about. It's about breaking an MA we and the Zulu signed against the Byzantines.

Con: our rep gets hit.
Pro: we get a good trade for Gems and horses (horses is a gamble).

We are in the tech lead (still) so our rep isn't worth as much, but OTOH buying strategic resources and luxuries is also hindered.

I'll post the turnlog for so far, care to comment ???
IHT:
Observations:
- We need horses if we want to quickly conquer. Unfortunately there are no horses close. Only 2 sources are within striking distance. 1 north of the Iroquois and 1 in Sumerian lands.
- No civs have more than 1 horse-resource connected, except the Incans who we are in war with. Not that it matters as:
- Trading is blocked because the Iroquois cities have coastal control.
- We need pikes
- Several cities with big shield-production are just 1 shield away from finishing their builds. With a bit more careful Micromanaging this would not happen.
- We are far down in Culture, so Iroquois cities are in flip-danger. Luckily many cultrual buildings will finish soon, hopefully bending that around.

If we Capture all Western-Iroquois cities, we've destroyed their core and have free sea-routes again.

Lower the Sci to 70%.

IBT: Sumeria wants us out. OK. Iroquois advance, but do not dare attack.
Lissabon temple -> Pike
Leiria Lib -> Pike
Évora Aqua -> temple

[1]410 AD. Battle of Niagara Falls.
Catapults hit 4 out of 8, Both defending spears are red-lined. Veteran MDI Defeats the first without scratch, promoting to elite. Elite 5/5 MDI takes 3 hits, but wins; capturing Niagara Falls.
Starting temple.
5/5 Sword Vs 3/3 Sword. Dies :( doing only 1 damage.

IBT: Byz Dromon is nearing our Shores. Niagara Falls stops resisting and starts riotting (I hate this).
Smokes Temple -> Harbor

[2]420 AD. Send in stack of 8 caths, 1 treb, 5 vet MDI's and 1 Elite MDI out to attack the presumed location of the Iro capital. More help is on their way.
Oporto functions fine without Colosseum, switch it to FP, as Wonder Prebuild. Bring it up to 20 spt.
Up science to 80%, getting Invention in 2; at -64 gpt.

IBT: Our Curragh dies to a Dromon attack and our galley is in danger of getting the same. The Dromon near our lands bombs, but does no damage.
Lissabon Pike -> Pike
Coimbra Harbor -> MDI
Braga Temple -> Pike
São Paulo Aqua -> temple
Alcácer do Sal Temple -> Pike

[3] 430 AD. Assembling 2nd attack force for Oil Springs. 1st Attack force finds itself next to Salamanca.
Invention in 1, Sun Tzu in 1. Sell Zulu Feudalism for 125 gold + Alliance Vs Byzantines and RoP. Hopefully that'll give the Byzantines something to do. I could also sign them against the Inca, but we need the Incan horses.

IBT: Our fleet is sunk by the Byz. Invention is learned. Start on Monotheism (for Chivalry). War Weariness seems to kick in.
Guimarães Lib -> MDI
Lagos temple -> Pike
Sun Tzu finishes in Emerita. Emerita starts Forbidden Palace.
Leiria Pike -> MDI

[4] 440 AD. Switch Oporto to Leo's. Up lux to 30%. MM cities to 5 or 6 or 10 or 15 or 20 shields. 2 trebs (1 hit) attack 3/3 sword and 5/5 elite MDI attacks. No leader.
Attack on Salamanca: 1 treb and 8 catapults hit 6 times, redlining all 3 spears. 4/4 MDI flawlessly kills 1/3 spear and promotes. 4/4 MDi flawlessly kills 1/3 spear (no promotion). 5/5 elite MDI looses 2 hits and wins, capturing Salamanca. No leader.
Send in 6 cats + 1 treb + 2 wet MDI's + 2 Elite Swords on their way to Oil Springs. Via a different route 1 reg pike + 1 vet MDI join them.
Now we have Sun Tzu: Sell all our barracks, netting us 70 gold and saving us 7 gpt.
Spain has Monotheism. They want to trade it for Invention. Hard Choice. Arabia build the Great Library some time ago, but doesn't know Spain, which means they won't get it.
I decide to Trade our Invention to Spain for Monotheism since the Cascade is dead. Pick up 1 gold as well.
Lower Sci to 50%; +8gpt, Chivalry in 9.

IBT: Dromon keeps blasting our shores, no damage. (this is what caused the War-Weariness). Spanish start Leo's.

Lissabon Pike -> Cathedral (Knight's Templar Pre-build).

[5] 450 AD. Forces move on to clear the West Coast. Also move on to Oil Springs. No trades possible.

IBT: We loose a pike and a MDI in the counter-attack. Nothing bad really. Palace expands; gets next floor.
Akwesane Treb -> settler
Mongol archer pops up, just in the path of our attack force on Cattaraugus.

[6] 460 AD. Forces move on. "Task force Oil Springs" is in position. If the Mongol arched moves; "task force Cattaraugus" will be next turn. No trades possible.

IBT: Dromon bombards Sagres again. 3/4 MDI is drawing swords away from Oil Springs. It is attacked as well, but survives and promotes to elite. Mongol archer leaves. :)
Guimarães MDI -> MDI
Sagres temple -> galley
Coimbra MDI -> galley
Centralia walls -> temple
Évora temple -> Lib
Smokes harbor -> market

[7] 470 AD. Battle of Oil Springs. 1 treb and 6 cats hit 2 times. 5/5 elite Sword Vs 2/3 spear: Looses 1 HP from Iro cat, but wins flawlessly. 5/5 Elite sword Vs 2/3 spear: Wins flawlessly and Oil Springs is ours (capturing the catapult). Starts temple.
"Task force Cattaraugus move into position to strike next turn.
Move stack of 5 MDI's + 1 cat + 2 Trebs out of Salamanca as it is in flip danger.

IBT: there are now 2 Dromons off Sagres. Iroquois reposition troops, but don't attack.
Leiria MDI -> Cathedral
Braga Pike -> Lib

[8] 480 AD. bombard and redline all Iroquois forces round Oil Springs.
Battle od Cattaraugus 8 cats + 1 treb hit 5 times. 5/5 Elite MDI Vs 2/4 Spear. Archer shoots, but no damage. MDI wins without a scratch. 4/4 MDI Vs 3/3 archer. 1 scratch, but wins. 5/5 Elite MDI Vs 1/4 spear. Flawless victory. We capture Cattaraugus + 2 workers. The sealines are open !!

... Or are they? Because we didn't scout the entire north-coast of our continent we can now only trade with the English and the Mongols (who have nothing).

We have got our objectives and our forces are tired. Dial up the Iro's for peace. We get Tyendenaga, Tonawanda, Caughnawaga and a worker for peace. Done.

And now the sealines are really open. We can trade.

Trade Ivory + Incense to Spain for Wines + 66 gold + 5gpt.
Sign Peace with the Inca for 100 gold. Can't trade for horses with them; the traderoute goes through (enemy) Byz lands.

We can make peace with the Byz, breaking our MA with the Zulu. But we need horses and gems. Decide to pause and think on it for a while. Our semi-monopoly on Monotheism (or Invention) is sufficient to get gems and horses. I can do Gems now, but would mean that the Arabs get the tech as well because of their Great Lib.

So: break our treaty and our rep to get horses and gems cheap so we can use the 20 turns of peace with the Iro's to build knights and kill them off, or only buy Gems, giving up our tech-advantage and get horses in 15 turns and have a small chance of destroying the Iro's ??

jb1964

Aug 11, 2004, 08:23 PM

Rik,

Not sure I follow everything. Can you post the save so I can take a look?

I'm not sure I follow the urgency of breaking the deal for the horses.

Rik Meleet

Aug 12, 2004, 01:44 AM

GO ahead and have a look;

480 AD. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Henry_of_the_Portuguese,_480_AD.SAV)

BigNHuge

Aug 12, 2004, 09:27 AM

Im gonna take a look as well.

BigNHuge

Aug 12, 2004, 09:58 AM

Well, this is a very hard decision indeed.

On the one hand, we need those horses!
But, on the other hand, we might need to buy techs for a long time.

If we back out of our alliance now, what good will our rep be? No good. :(

Here is what I say we do-

I say we take this time to fill in the gaps up North. Put up some more cities and get more trebs/pike or muskets (whenever they come) We can hope that the Zulu break the deal and make peace, then in turn we make peace and get those horses. With which we can make a bee line for MT, and take our continent. Obviously we can take out the Iroquios at any moment. They have no iron/horses. Dang good thing we didnt see MWs huh! :) When we get Chivalry, Que up Knights Templar. Do NOT trade Chivalry to anyone. This i believe makes horses more valuable. ( Not exactly sure ) Or we could take a different approach by taking the Mongol city that has the horses, and then just holding the city and sueing for peace. Any thoughts?

jb1964

Aug 12, 2004, 11:40 AM

I would aviod trashing the rep. It's hard to recover from. And create new opportunities for domination.

BigNHuge

Aug 12, 2004, 12:14 PM

Jeez i have SG woes right now

BNH01- No horses!
BNH02- Early War with Germans!
RW2- Technology woes!
Vpr2- Inactivity amongst others!

When will it all end! :aargh: :rotfl:

Rik Meleet

Aug 12, 2004, 03:25 PM

I've made my decision, thanks for thinking with me. I'm not going to buy Gems nor sign peace with the Byz this turn.

Continuing now ...

Rik Meleet

Aug 12, 2004, 04:14 PM

The Save 500 AD. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-500AD.SAV)

IHT:
Observations:
- We need horses if we want to quickly conquer. Unfortunately there are no horses close. Only 2 sources are within striking distance. 1 north of the Iroquois and 1 in Sumerian lands.
- No civs have more than 1 horse-resource connected, except the Incans who we are in war with. Not that it matters as:
- Trading is blocked because the Iroquois cities have coastal control.
- We need pikes
- Several cities with big shield-production are just 1 shield away from finishing their builds. With a bit more careful Micromanaging this would not happen.
- We are far down in Culture, so Iroquois cities are in flip-danger. Luckily many cultrual buildings will finish soon, hopefully bending that around.

If we Capture all Western-Iroquois cities, we've destroyed their core and have free sea-routes again.

Lower the Sci to 70%.

IBT: Sumeria wants us out. OK. Iroquois advance, but do not dare attack.
Lissabon temple -> Pike
Leiria Lib -> Pike
Évora Aqua -> temple

[1]410 AD. Battle of Niagara Falls.
Catapults hit 4 out of 8, Both defending spears are red-lined. Veteran MDI Defeats the first without scratch, promoting to elite. Elite 5/5 MDI takes 3 hits, but wins; capturing Niagara Falls.
Starting temple.
5/5 Sword Vs 3/3 Sword. Dies :( doing only 1 damage.

IBT: Byz Dromon is nearing our Shores. Niagara Falls stops resisting and starts riotting (I hate this).
Smokes Temple -> Harbor

[2]420 AD. Send in stack of 8 caths, 1 treb, 5 vet MDI's and 1 Elite MDI out to attack the presumed location of the Iro capital. More help is on their way.
Oporto functions fine without Colosseum, switch it to FP, as Wonder Prebuild. Bring it up to 20 spt.
Up science to 80%, getting Invention in 2; at -64 gpt.

IBT: Our Curragh dies to a Dromon attack and our galley is in danger of getting the same. The Dromon near our lands bombs, but does no damage.
Lissabon Pike -> Pike
Coimbra Harbor -> MDI
Braga Temple -> Pike
São Paulo Aqua -> temple
Alcácer do Sal Temple -> Pike

[3] 430 AD. Assembling 2nd attack force for Oil Springs. 1st Attack force finds itself next to Salamanca.
Invention in 1, Sun Tzu in 1. Sell Zulu Feudalism for 125 gold + Alliance Vs Byzantines and RoP. Hopefully that'll give the Byzantines something to do. I could also sign them against the Inca, but we need the Incan horses.

IBT: Our fleet is sunk by the Byz. Invention is learned. Start on Monotheism (for Chivalry). War Weariness seems to kick in.
Guimarães Lib -> MDI
Lagos temple -> Pike
Sun Tzu finishes in Emerita. Emerita starts Forbidden Palace.
Leiria Pike -> MDI

[4] 440 AD. Switch Oporto to Leo's. Up lux to 30%. MM cities to 5 or 6 or 10 or 15 or 20 shields. 2 trebs (1 hit) attack 3/3 sword and 5/5 elite MDI attacks. No leader.
Attack on Salamanca: 1 treb and 8 catapults hit 6 times, redlining all 3 spears. 4/4 MDI flawlessly kills 1/3 spear and promotes. 4/4 MDi flawlessly kills 1/3 spear (no promotion). 5/5 elite MDI looses 2 hits and wins, capturing Salamanca. No leader.
Send in 6 cats + 1 treb + 2 wet MDI's + 2 Elite Swords on their way to Oil Springs. Via a different route 1 reg pike + 1 vet MDI join them.
Now we have Sun Tzu: Sell all our barracks, netting us 70 gold and saving us 7 gpt.
Spain has Monotheism. They want to trade it for Invention. Hard Choice. Arabia build the Great Library some time ago, but doesn't know Spain, which means they won't get it.
I decide to Trade our Invention to Spain for Monotheism since the Cascade is dead. Pick up 1 gold as well.
Lower Sci to 50%; +8gpt, Chivalry in 9.

IBT: Dromon keeps blasting our shores, no damage. (this is what caused the War-Weariness). Spanish start Leo's.

Lissabon Pike -> Cathedral (Knight's Templar Pre-build).

[5] 450 AD. Forces move on to clear the West Coast. Also move on to Oil Springs. No trades possible.

IBT: We loose a pike and a MDI in the counter-attack. Nothing bad really. Palace expands; gets next floor.
Akwesane Treb -> settler
Mongol archer pops up, just in the path of our attack force on Cattaraugus.

[6] 460 AD. Forces move on. "Task force Oil Springs" is in position. If the Mongol arched moves; "task force Cattaraugus" will be next turn. No trades possible.

IBT: Dromon bombards Sagres again. 3/4 MDI is drawing swords away from Oil Springs. It is attacked as well, but survives and promotes to elite. Mongol archer leaves. :)
Guimarães MDI -> MDI
Sagres temple -> galley
Coimbra MDI -> galley
Centralia walls -> temple
Évora temple -> Lib
Smokes harbor -> market

[7] 470 AD. Battle of Oil Springs. 1 treb and 6 cats hit 2 times. 5/5 elite Sword Vs 2/3 spear: Looses 1 HP from Iro cat, but wins flawlessly. 5/5 Elite sword Vs 2/3 spear: Wins flawlessly and Oil Springs is ours (capturing the catapult). Starts temple.
"Task force Cattaraugus move into position to strike next turn.
Move stack of 5 MDI's + 1 cat + 2 Trebs out of Salamanca as it is in flip danger.

IBT: there are now 2 Dromons off Sagres. Iroquois reposition troops, but don't attack.
Leiria MDI -> Cathedral
Braga Pike -> Lib

[8] 480 AD. bombard and redline all Iroquois forces round Oil Springs.
Battle od Cattaraugus 8 cats + 1 treb hit 5 times. 5/5 Elite MDI Vs 2/4 Spear. Archer shoots, but no damage. MDI wins without a scratch. 4/4 MDI Vs 3/3 archer. 1 scratch, but wins. 5/5 Elite MDI Vs 1/4 spear. Flawless victory. We capture Cattaraugus + 2 workers. The sealines are open !!

... Or are they? Because we didn't scout the entire north-coast of our continent we can now only trade with the English and the Mongols (who have nothing).

We have got our objectives and our forces are tired. Dial up the Iro's for peace. We get Tyendenaga, Tonawanda, Caughnawaga and a worker for peace. Done.

And now the sealines are really open. We can trade.

Trade Ivory + Incense to Spain for Wines + 66 gold + 5gpt.
Sign Peace with the Inca for 100 gold. Can't trade for horses with them; the traderoute goes through (enemy) Byz lands.

After thinking hard about it and consulting the team I decide that's that for trades this turn.

Do a little MM-ing. Increase Science-slider to get Chiv in 3. Switch some MDI-builds to Pike-builds.

IBT: We are attacked by 1 Dromon, the other one (possibly containing Byz troops) is heading south. 2 Spanish galleys move to our new undefended city Caughnawaga. They won't declare, but if they do they have broken their Rep Big time.
Guimarães Pike -> Cathedral
Lagos Pike -> Pike
Alcácer do Sal Pike -> market

Lord McCauley finishes his "The Largest Nations of the World"
1) Sumeria
2) Portugal
3) Spain
4) Byzantium
5) Inca
6) Mongolia
7) England
8) Arabia

[9] 490 AD. Sending troops to the north for protection and re-assembling. Down the lux to 80%; Chiv in 2, at -26 gpt.

IBT: Looks like the Mongols and Iroquois are going to fight eachother; in our lands. Dromon returns north and Spanish galleys also disappear north. Our Palace expands; gets a roof.
Coimbra galley -> galley

[10] 500 AD. Down sci to 60%; Chiv in 1. Moving units. Sending galley to face the Dromons soon. Haven't seen any good trading possibilities. In fact for some reason our traderoute with Spain collapsed (I do not know why). Actually I do; a Dromon is blocking the sea-route. So our reputation is killed already, and we're still at war with Byz. I'm having 2nd thoughts I've made the correct choice in keeping at war with Byz, not breaking the MA with Zulu.
But OTOH: the next player can now decide to make peace with Byz; buy Gems from Zulu and perhaps wine from Spain and horses from Inca. Spain is the only nation equal in tech with us; the rest is behind, but do remember the Arabs get all techs 2 nations they know also have. And our cities need MM-ing due to lux-loss and the unhappyness because of that.

I gladly pass this game over now.

BigNHuge

Aug 12, 2004, 05:34 PM

ill get it after my family leaves.

SJ Frank

Aug 12, 2004, 08:20 PM

Nice turns there :) . Much military gain, close to zero loses.

I would have made the same trades. Our rep is tarnished? Nah, we'll just have to be the tech leader then :lol: . Which, I guess, meaning we'll be building libraries in our core.

What do you think about this gambit: buy horse from Inca; stop research on Chivary, accumulate some gold; switch builds in cities to horse, build 8-10 of them; finish research on Chivary, upgrade, then take the Mongol horse :D

BigNHuge

Aug 12, 2004, 08:38 PM

im gonna grab it in the morning. To tired tonight. Thx.

BigNHuge

Aug 13, 2004, 12:09 PM

will play after my texas hold em tournament.

P.S. if anyone can make me an avatar with an Ace of Spades, that would be great! thanks.

Rik Meleet

Aug 13, 2004, 03:06 PM

if anyone can make me an avatar with an Ace of Spades, that would be great! thanks.post here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=75152) for your avatar; it's the home of the experts.

BigNHuge

Aug 13, 2004, 03:22 PM

@Rik Thank you very much

@all- Im not done yet. Im up in 2 SG and this one is top priority. But i should be finished by tomorrow night, But heres the first three turns. I was able to get horses and maintain our rep through some quick trading.

Pre-flight- After careful consideration, Ive decided we need those horses, no matter what. So i dial up Theodora. We get peace and a RoP straight up. This will keep us on her good side for a while. Call up Inca. Get furs, dyes, horses, and 217 gold for Mono. Call Zulu. Get gems and 36 gold for Mono. Call Spain. Get wines and 9 gpt for incense and ivory. Sign a RoP with Mongolia as he went from polite to annoyed after we broke our deal. He is polite again. Sign RoP with Korea to make him happy. After some MM to keep people happy. (More markets would be extremely nice) We are ready to begin with our rep semi rebuilt!

IBT- Byzanties retreat their Dromons. Mongolia advances to attack Iroquios. Chivalry comes in. Gonna get gunpowder in 8. Sagres Galley->Knight.

Turn [1] 510AD- Set Lissabon to Knights Templar. Comes in in 11. Nothing really special besides some MM and some unit/worker movements.

IBT- See some excellent Iro vs Mongolia fighting. The Iroquios are just spent i believe, but are putting up a fight and sending spear/settler combos out. Mongolia can easily mop that up though.

Turn [2] 520AD- Worker actions. Set up an force to take out the Iroquios if they try something extremely stupid. In three turns they will be covered at all ends.

IBT- More Iroquios vs Mongolia. Iroquios get the better of Mongolia this turn.

Turn [3] 530AD- Worker/MM. Gunpowder in 6. These are easy times. I also hurry some close to finished building so we can start more Knights soon.

BigNHuge

Aug 14, 2004, 10:16 AM

Here is all ten turns and the save. No pic as the world looks much the same. Phew, 1 down, 2 to go. :goodjob:

Pre-flight- After careful consideration, Ive decided we need those horses, no matter what. So i dial up Theodora. We get peace and a RoP straight up. This will keep us on her good side for a while. Call up Inca. Get furs, dyes, horses, and 217 gold for Mono. Call Zulu. Get gems and 36 gold for Mono. Call Spain. Get wines and 9 gpt for incense and ivory. Sign a RoP with Mongolia as he went from polite to annoyed after we broke our deal. He is polite again. Sign RoP with Korea to make him happy. After some MM to keep people happy. (More markets would be extremely nice) We are ready to begin with our rep semi rebuilt!

IBT- Byzanties retreat their Dromons. Mongolia advances to attack Iroquios. Chivalry comes in. Gonna get gunpowder in 8. Sagres Galley->Knight.

Turn [1] 510AD- Set Lissabon to Knights Templar. Comes in in 11. Nothing really special besides some MM and some unit/worker movements.

IBT- See some excellent Iro vs Mongolia fighting. The Iroquios are just spent i believe, but are putting up a fight and sending spear/settler combos out. Mongolia can easily mop that up though.

Turn [2] 520AD- Worker actions. Set up an force to take out the Iroquios if they try something extremely stupid. In three turns they will be covered at all ends.

IBT- More Iroquios vs Mongolia. Iroquios get the better of Mongolia this turn.

Turn [3] 530AD- Worker/MM. Gunpowder in 6. These are easy times. I also hurry some close to finished building so we can start more Knights soon. I think we have got Gunpowder in the bag. That way, when we hit Mongolia, There AC have to fight muskets. :)

IBT- Spainish ships leave the area. Mongolia hits Iroquios hard this turn. Several things finish, including our first knights! Its good to see our horse brethern in battle, err.... Patrol. Yeah thats it. :)

Turn [4] 540AD- Send some of our veteran MDI out on an exploring front. They will fortify in the mountains to get an early control of them. That will give us some odds. Worker actions and MM. Our FP will come in in 5. Leos in 15. Knights Templar in 8 with a growth in Lissabon in 1!

IBT- Spain wishes to renew our peace treaty. I dont know there Isabella, have you been a good girl? :lol: I of course agree. See what Spains got and they have Gunpowder... Once again Mongolia gets the upper hand on Iroquios. And yet another Knight. Although are gpt dropped from +55 to -20. Did we have a huge GPT deal somewhere?

Turn [5] 550AD- Try to get another gpt deal with someone, but not much open. Worker actions/MM. Really boring turn.

IBT- Spain Demands Chivalry. This was the only tech that we had on them. They have a larger military then us. This is a very tough decision. But i decided to refuse. And they declare war. More Mongolia vs Iro. Man that Spain issue is making me mad. Some knights finish. Will keep them near home incase of a Spanish drop.

Turn [6] 560AD- Our reputation is intact and Spain's has got to be hurt. Actually a plus for us! Nothing real special here.

IBT- Spanish galleys reappear. Hopefully they will be slowed down by all the Mongolia Iroquios battles.

Turn [7] 570AD- More units moving. Pretty cool up north right now. Units spread and no SoD. More MM and seeing if anyone else has Gunpowder. They dont. :)

IBT- Spain settles New Madrid on OUR CONTINENT! They will be severly punished!

Turn [8] 580AD- Nothing special. Unit movements and such. And Gunpowder will come in on the IBT.

IBT- 2 spanish galley emerge. Will land near a city that should be just fine. :) Gunpowder arrives. Chemistry in 13. at plus 17gpt. We need more gold as we are at 430. Our FP finishes! This increases our gpt by 12. Excellent. Also lowers our research to 12 turns.

Turn [9] 590AD- Our only source of Saltpeter is near Oil Springs. But connectected. See a Spanish archer in the mountains. This means they have been here for a while. Ouch. MM and worker actions. A group of three MDI will attack that Archer next turn.

IBT- Mongolia once again gets a big upper hand on the Iroquios. They have basically wiped our all Iroquios from our lands this turn. Big turn for them. Spanish galleys do not attack Caughnawaga. They head even further south. Also, it looks like there is alot of Iro in our lands, but this isnt even close to there former glory in our lands. Few markets finish, making our income 37gpt. Big help from that FP.

Turn [10] 600AD- Kill that archer. Still refuse our envoy. Much unit movement here. Great turn for us, as we kill our first Spanish unit. Dish wine to our soldiers and pass the torch. Here is the save.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-_600AD.SAV)

SJ Frank

Aug 15, 2004, 04:26 AM

I've got it. Will play within 24 hours.

Rik Meleet

Aug 15, 2004, 06:47 AM

Looking good.

SJ Frank: Consider this: We are importing a lot of stuff from other continents. Since the coast in the top-north of our continent is still unexplored, trade-routes can't go through. If you declare war on Iroquois, we will break al our trade routes instantly.

Structural solution: Get that northern-coast-line explored.
Short term Solution: Connect a land trade-route to Mongolia, so we use their harbors.

As long as we depend on the Iros for trade; I wouldn't declare war on them.

SJ Frank

Aug 16, 2004, 06:04 AM

Well Rik, I didn't see your post before playing my turns, so I did nothing for our trade route. I guess the next player (jb1964, I think) gets to execute the trade-route plans. I don't like the idea of road connection to the Mongols, because they are our next target, though we do need to build a road towards them, to connect OUR :lol: horses.

In fact, our trade route did break again in 650 AD. My solution was buying wine from the Byzantines (the Lighthouse owner), and setting the lux slider to 10%. I think buying from the other civs for gpt is still okay, but I didn't want to give gold to the other top dogs, so I used the lux tax instead.

* * *

My 10 turns were very quiet builder turns. Maybe the next leader or two can enjoy some action?

Worker Actions

Yeah, you know it's a slow turn-set when worker actions gets the headline :p .

During the inherited turn, I veto-ed a lot of worker actions in the southern tundra. They were of two types: 1) improving tiles that will never be used -- fishing villages will never work more than 2 forrest tiles. And 2) mining tundra instead of planting forrest. The two forrest games tiles were chopped and mined by the previous leaders, so I left 3 workers to re-forrest them, and the rest of the work force was send north.

San Paulo and Smokes ended up getting a lot of worker attention during my early turns, they received more irrigation to help them grow. Evora got the treatment in the later turns. Once again, the focus was on irrigation and growth.

The northern workers get to finish their project on hand before being ordered out of the mountains and down into the plains. More irrigations were ordered. I just can't stand seeing those "growth every 30 turns" markings next to our cities. Normally, I'd like to see my cities growth every 4-5 turns, meaning that they each make 4-5 food per turn.

City Production

My domestic policy is, only cities that have built all "necessary improvements" gets to build units. The "necessary improvements" for this game, at this point in time are:

- aquaduct if the city needs it
- granary if the city is above size 7
- marketplace
- library
- courthouse in some cities

I did leave most inherited build orders alone, but once those are finished, I queued up granaries and libraries left and right. I think Guimaraes was the only city that build units through out my turns.

My policy did have one :mad: side-effect: when our horse trade was interrupted during turn 5, we ended up with less knights then we would have otherwise. We have 15 knights now, and that's as many as we're going to have until we go conquer some Mongol horses, because they aren't available on the international market anymore :( .

I rushed one building during my inherited turn, which was the temple in Tyendenaga. That city has Iron, and is receiving too much culture pressure from the Iroquois.

Wonders and International Relations

We completed both wonders that we wanted -- Leo's in Oporto and the Knight's Templar in Lisbon. Spain and Arab cascaded to Sistine Chapel. Since they are still two techs from the next wonder, chances are good that the cascade will end here.

Spain and the Arabs are the top dogs in this game. When Spain researched Chivary on turn 1, I made the :smoke: move of selling Chivary to the Arabs for some 18 gpt, not realizing that they have not met. Later on turn 5, Arabs researched Theology, and Spain came up with Gun Powder sometime before that. Spain also has Theology by the time Leo's was finished, though they must have researched it independly, because Spain and the Arabs still have not met.

On turn 6, the Incans demanded Chivary, so we are fighting another proxy war that's giving us war happiness. On the same turn, the Incans also declared war on the Arabs. If the Arabs were not in a golden age before, they should be now.

Rest of the AI's are fairly backward, some of the isolated ones are still in Ancient Age. The civs on our contient are working on the first tier MA techs.

War

We are still fighting the Spanish. One of their regular galley took out two of our vet galleys on turn 4. We now officially have no navy :( . On turn 8, we return the favor by :hammer: a landing party of warriors and horses, neting an elite Crusader in the process. That was it for war, really.

The Mongols have made zero progress against the Iroquois, though I do expect them to take the Iroquois capital city soon.

The Spanish have one more loaded galley headed our way. There is also an brown color AI galley on our west coast somewhere, the next leader will have to keep an eye on it.

Tech

We're roughly 20 turns from Military Tradition. :)

Notes for the next leader

We need horses. The Mongols have it. We have a dozen knights gathered near the front. So what are we waiting for?

Well, for one thing, we don't have a road anywhere near the horse. What's the point of getting the darn thing if we can't access it! Do we waiting until the road is complete? Do we build more cities in the area? Or do we attack now? One thing is for sure, we want to take the horse before the Mongols connect it for themselves.

I think there is a tech trade available with the Arabs that will net us 2 lux. The next leader may want to consider it. Though you should probably do something about our trade route first (make peace with Spain, execute Rik Meleet's plan).

Below is a settlement plan that will allow us to bring irrigation to the northeastern cities. If we are building any cities to fill in that area, I think we should settle these two sites.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-700AD.jpg

And here is the Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-700AD.SAV)

jb1964

Aug 17, 2004, 08:03 AM

Just d/l'ed the save. Will read through the notes while at work and play w/i the alloted time.

Will work on upgrading our trading routes.

Will make roads to horses and aquisition a priority.

jb1964

Aug 18, 2004, 08:38 AM

SJ, we have a number of forces that seem to be protecting our roads from use by our RoP buddies. Is that the case? I would like to consolidate many of these forces and position for retaliation from the mongols.

I'll continue setting the table for the battles to claim our horses.
- Move 12 of our 15 knights towards the objective (easy)
(keeping 3 in reserve for landings and/or counters)
- Build roads to the front (easy but time consuming)
- Fill in gaps (easy, time consuming, need settlers)
- Set defense against Mogols (easy, just troop movement)

With Leo's in hand I'll upgrade what I can with current reserves.

SJ Frank

Aug 18, 2004, 04:17 PM

SJ, we have a number of forces that seem to be protecting our roads from use by our RoP buddies. Is that the case? I would like to consolidate many of these forces and position for retaliation from the mongols.

Yes, please do move them :) . They were there to keep those Mongolian road hogs off our road, making it easier to move our units into the area. Once our units arrive, it's mission accomplished.

I'll continue setting the table for the battles to claim our horses.
- Move 12 of our 15 knights towards the objective (easy)
(keeping 3 in reserve for landings and/or counters)
- Build roads to the front (easy but time consuming)
- Fill in gaps (easy, time consuming, need settlers)
- Set defense against Mogols (easy, just troop movement)

With Leo's in hand I'll upgrade what I can with current reserves.

Sounds good :goodjob: .

Before you attack, remember to rush walls where they are needed.

BigNHuge

Aug 18, 2004, 08:18 PM

After we get MT, i think we should bee line for Economics. Any thoughts?

jb1964

Aug 19, 2004, 12:56 AM

The save, BNH01 800AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-800AD.SAV)

This is all wrong! Why would the three of you do this? I know you meant well but this is irreparable. Oh, sorry. I thought this was an email to my kids.

The horses at Atlay are the target. We’re average compared to the Mongols. We send a knight up north to scout our horses. Mongols are still w/o Monotheism and therefore w/o Chivalry to build their Keshik’s. Also sending a knight to bust the fog up on our northern coast. We have plenty of arty that will be best used to beat the snot out of Mongol units that are in and near our territory when the horse thieving begins.

Spanish have three galleys messing w/ our trade route. Isabel wants Chemistry for peace. Bite me.

I execute the deal w/ Abu; Gunpowder for Theology, dyes, furs, 17g.

Luxury down to 0% and research up to 70% bringing in Metallurgy in 8 turns.

Swap Leiria to a settler since they have growth queued. No other city looks good for a settler w/o disturbing the production.

IBT: Renew RoP w/ the Koreans. Renew peace treaty w/ Theodora. We do not renew RoP w/ the Mongols.

Turn 1, 710 AD
Move knights, upgrade units, worker actions, want defense in place up North when we slice into our Mongol friends. I executed the deal w/ the Arabs prematurely without checking the trade route. Some naval units to try and keep the route clear may be called for if we could build better than a galley. I’m going to bring over some trebuchets to nail these Spanish ships.

IBT: The Mongols are overrunning the Iroquois and returning more than a few slaves to their territory. The Mongols have put down a road on our horses but have not connected that square. Need to bust a bit more fog. I thought the Mongols had a second source for horses but I can’t find another.

Turn 2, 720 AD
Lots of troop movements. Trying to get the most out of workers where they stand but generally migrating to the North. Build orders support defensive units where shields per turn are optimal. MM some cities. Putting up libraries, markets and courthouses where called for. Treasury is drained from upgrades but I’m keeping the research pushed up to bring in Metal in 6 turns.

IBT: The Mongols are sending heaven and earth at the Iroquois and I noticed some mounted units. We might move on the horses quicker than I would have liked. Ah, the mounted units are AC’s. But I did verify that the horses are now hooked up. Blah. Spain landed two horsemen. They’re dead.

Turn 3, 730 AD
A crusader and MI take care of our mounted adversaries. We’re still importing the luxuries from the Arabs. The most vulnerable point in our route would take two units to block. More troop movement with the knight forces headed towards our horses and a musket to anchor the city once it’s taken. We pull back research to 50% (Metal in 6) to collect some coin to upgrade remaining units. Muskets and pikes ring our southern boarders because the last thing I want is two horses landing next to a city w/ a warrior.

IBT: The Mongols are not thrilled with our spying and ask us to leave. We shall for the moment. The Mongols continue to dump swords and spears into Iroquois territory.

Turn 4, 740 AD
Trade route still intact. I need to get a better understanding of trade routes. Troop movements and worker actions in support of the coming action. Keeping research at 50%. We’re still at the top of the technology dog pile.

If needed Sumeria has spices and are a bunch of backwards morons. Killing these fools should be considered a global beautification project.

IBT: We lost our supply of dyes and furs. The trade route was cut. :mad:

Turn 5, 750 AD
The trade route w/ Sumeria is similarly cut. According to the trade advisor we’re out of luck. Looks like peace w/ the Spanish is on the table. I could have executed this last turn but didn’t for a petty amount of gold. :sad:

Make peace w/ Spain for 4gpt and 9g. Then trade Isabella Chemistry for horses, 165gpt and 21g. :hmm: This is turning out better than I could have hoped.

Now lets look at the trade route. Yep, all the trade routes are in play again.
Samaria gets a sweetheart deal of Currency for spices. Hey, they’re stupid and I don’t see this as a big negative. We get gems from Shaka for Ivory, 19gpt and 15g. Abu does not get another deal which is fine w/ me. At least we got Theology out of the deal.

Research up to 70% and Metallurgy in 3 turns. Top 9 cities switched to knights.

IBT: Renew RoP w/ England and get an extra piece of gold out of it.

Turn 6, 760 AD
Troop movements and worker actions.

IBT: St. Regis falls to the Mongols. If provoked the Mongols could do major damage with large stacks of swords and the odd AC. Quite a few spears in the mix as well that could go on a pillaging campaign. And I don't want to chase spears around in these mountains.

Turn 7, 770 AD and 2 am. Time for bed.
This was a good time for reflection as the acqusition of horses for 20 turns from Isabella changes things. Plus this mountainous terrain in the NNE needs to be used correctly. I need to set up some serious killing zones for all the Mongol units bent on exterminating the Iroquois but there's too much area for the number of units allocated to this front.

Troop movements and worker actions.

IBT: Same as it ever was.
Metallurgy comes in and we set our sites on MT in 8 while adding 125gpt to the treasury.

Turn 8, 780 AD
Troop movements and worker actions.

IBT: Mauch Chunk falls.

Turn 9, 790 AD
Troop movements and worker actions.

IBT: Nothing
Turn 10, 800 AD
Troop movements and worker actions.
Founded cites at sites A and B.
Getting control of mountains around Tonondaga and Tyendenaga.
We’re up to 25 knights.
Much of the Mongol SoD’s are out on the Iroquois peninsula and a war now looks much more workable.
Finally got workers up north to extend the roads.

Check trades before moving on because I didn't.

Save was too large to add as an attachment.

The save, BNH01 800AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-800AD.SAV)

BigNHuge

Aug 19, 2004, 09:10 AM

Reallife has really creeped up as of late. I will not have any civ access until the 25th of August, as i will be on a trip. I will have Internet access, so i will keep my 2 cents in wherever possible. Looks very nice so far jb. Keep it up man. :cool:

SJ Frank

Aug 19, 2004, 05:32 PM

Enjoy your trip. See, isn't it nice to have a break from civ once in a while. :lol:

Since we haven't posted a roster in a while, here it is:

Rik Meleet - On Deck
BigNHuge - On vacation :cool: [party] :beer: until the 25th
SJ Frank - Just played
jb1964 - Playing

jb1964

Aug 20, 2004, 08:18 AM

Done w/ turns.

Save at top and bottom of post below.

Pictures pending. Ok, the .ppt file didn't get to me from home so the pictures will have to wait.

I'm feeling much more confidant about our position and forces vs the Mongols. We have had units waiting around to grab the mountains while hordes of Mongol spears, swords and AC's wander through. Also, those hordes are now getting deep into the Iroquois peninsula so we'll have time to work on them before they arrive at our doors.

In the north next to our horses are parked 12 knights with a musket, MI and 4 trebs to help occupy the city. There's also a settler up that way that needs a home and some defense now that I think of it.

Nearly all of our homeland coastal cities have a musket garrison and there are some MI's scattered in between to deal w/ landings. We're still at war w/ the Incans.

Rik Meleet

Aug 21, 2004, 03:33 PM

I'm up in this one as well ?? Wow; that's 3 SG's where I'm up.

I got it

BigNHuge

Aug 21, 2004, 08:12 PM

Looks good everyone. Expect me ready to play on the 25th. Having lots of fun on this last hooray of summer. Keep the Mongolians in check, :hammer: some for me.

BigNHuge

Aug 23, 2004, 07:14 AM

P.S~ Late i know, but good job picking up those horses. :thumbsup:

Rik Meleet

Aug 23, 2004, 05:28 PM

IHT: I'm going to finish the road to the horses before I attack. Perhaps even wait for Cavs. We own Leo's and Sun Tzu, might as well use it.

IBT: Mongols continue destroying the Iroquois with overwhelming force.

[1] 810 AD. positioning troops in blockades.
Hmmm. I'm not sure about all those troops; we are already paying 148 gpt on upkeep. Switch some knight-making cities to libs and markets.

IBT: Mongols demand us to leave. ok
Mongols clear our continent of Portuguese. They are stuck on a 1 tile island.

[2] 820 AD. Found Ourique, close to the horses. This will be our base of operations.

[3] Arabs acquired Education. That means the Great Lib is dead. Sell them Chemistry for Dyes + Furs + Education + 18 gpt + 27 gold.

IBT: Many WLTK days.

[4] 840 AD. Found Goa.

[5] 850 AD. Move as many knights as possible into cities. For Mass upgrading to cavs. Spain over 106 gold + 88 gpt for Metallurgy. I'm very tempted. I decide not to; in 10 turns our peace-treaty expires. Position galley to keep traderoute through Sumeria open.

IBT: We lost our Wines. Because of expiring trade-deal with Byz. They want too much, let it expire.
We learn Military Tradition !! Next tech: Astronomy.
Full scale production on Cav happens.

[6] 860 AD. Spain has Astronomy. And wines. But they won't trade both for Mettallurgy. Sign a Byz-deal Wines for Ivory + Incense + 6gpt.
Sell Mettallurgy to Spain for Astronomy + 64 gold.
We have safe traderoutes !!
Buy Silks from China for Currency :lol: + Iron.
Choose Banking as next tech.

In our nation are 3 people unhappy and 2 content. We'll have many WLTK next turn.
Upgrade cost Knight -> Cav 15 gold. :lol: Upgrade 27 for 405 gold.
Treb to cannon: 15 gold. Upgrades Several in Ourique to strike at Altay soon.
In fact, upgraded all knight and trebs.

IBT: PAlace expands

[7] 870 AD. Found Diu. Dial up Genghis: "Hey Khan-boy, get those troops out of our lands!!" -> "Perhaps I shall" the coward replies.
Well, then I declare on you.
2 Altay spear die and Altay is ours. No casualties on our side.
Hutag falls on the first day. St. Regis too. Gayagaahe as well.

Switch Caughnawaga to harbor so it can upgrade our galleys to Carracks.
Start Oporto on Copernicus and Lissabon on Sistines (Prebuild for JS Bach or Smiths). If needed we can always change back, the cities have no shields in the box.

IBT: We get hit and loose units, but no cities.

[8] 880 AD. Maneuver into position. Replenish defenders and give injured cavs rest. Capture Grand River. There are a lot of Mongol swords around, from the Iroquois war. But: More stray units = more chance of Leaders.

IBT: Everything holds, loose some swords and MDI's. Big deal.
Spanish galleys sail along our east coast. Sending Carrack to follow them.

[9] 890 AD. 4 MDI's capture Kiohero + 9 workers. Mauch Chunk is captured. Gandasetaigon captured. There are no more Mongol city south of our horse-city Altay. Kill many stray units, but no leader.

IBT: 18 swords, 4 spears and 2 archers position themselves directly in front of our guns, near our Cavs.

[10] 900 AD. Reduce the 18 swords, 4 spears and 2 archers to 12 swords, 2 spears and 2 archers. Our lands are nearly safe.

--------------------------
Banking in 1.
The Red-colored route (see map) is the only way to get water to our North-Eastern lands. I started to irrigate towards it.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Water.JPG

Portugal in 800 AD and 900 AD.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/800_AD_minimap.JPG http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/900_AD_minimap.JPG

And: The Save 900 AD. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-900AD.SAV)

SJ Frank

Aug 24, 2004, 02:35 AM

Great turns Rik!

How far are the Mongols from Gunpowder? Can we disconnect any of its iron/saltpeter? Not that we don't have enough of an advantage already. :D

In our nation are 3 people unhappy and 2 content. We'll have many WLTK next turn.

We're going to party like it's 999 [party]...

Oh wait, it is going to be 999 :crazyeye:

IBT: Everything holds, loose some swords and MDI's. Big deal.

I think that's one of my weaknesses in war. I hate to lose units. Hence during my turn 2 rotations ago, I took only 1 Iroquois city, while Rik conquered half of their empire with roughly the same amount of troops.

I think I need to get better at looking at the big picture, rather than trying to play the perfect game.

* * *

On the wonder situation, Rik, are there any other wonders getting started during your turn? I'm trying to figure out if we need to use our golden age here. I think the most efficient use of our golden age is a factory + university + Hoover's push. So if we could afford to, I'd like to delay the GA until the early industrial age.

* * *

Totally random thought: I'm not a big fan of Leo's. I just don't think its money saving benefit is worth the 600 shields. I'm going to keep the score at home, to see just how much benefit Leo's provided us in this game. So far, from reading Rik's report, I think the saving is around 500 gold, roughly equal to shutting down research for 1 turn.

* * *

Another totally random thought: with a growing territory and rail coming up, let's peel off some workers from our size 12 cities in between cavs.

* * *

This is NOT a got-it. Since it's the 24th already, and BigNHuge will be back on the 25th, Big will get to take his turns in the regular rotation. :)

Rik Meleet

Aug 24, 2004, 03:59 AM

How far are the Mongols from Gunpowder? Can we disconnect any of its iron/saltpeter? Not that we don't have enough of an advantage already. :DI'm NIFOS now, but I think the Mongols still lack Monotheism and Engineering. They're far away from Gunpowder and Chivalry. We can roll them up quickly. I'm breaking their back in the SoD and then they'll fight a loosing war. It's cannons + Cavs Vs Ancient Cavs, pikes, spears, swords and archers.
We're going to party like it's 999 [party]...

Oh wait, it is going to be 999 :crazyeye:Party like it's 1999. You only forgot 1000 years.
I think that's one of my weaknesses in war. I hate to lose units. Hence during my turn 2 rotations ago, I took only 1 Iroquois city, while Rik conquered half of their empire with roughly the same amount of troops.

I think I need to get better at looking at the big picture, rather than trying to play the perfect game.What use are swords and MDI's when you have cavs ? They are obsolete and cost us 2gpt for each unit.

* * *

On the wonder situation, Rik, are there any other wonders getting started during your turn? I'm trying to figure out if we need to use our golden age here. I think the most efficient use of our golden age is a factory + university + Hoover's push. So if we could afford to, I'd like to delay the GA until the early industrial age.I've started Copernicus (in our highest science-generating city) to speed up science and I've started Sistine's as a prebuild for JS Bach's or Smiths.

* * *

Totally random thought: I'm not a big fan of Leo's. I just don't think its money saving benefit is worth the 600 shields. I'm going to keep the score at home, to see just how much benefit Leo's provided us in this game. So far, from reading Rik's report, I think the saving is around 500 gold, roughly equal to shutting down research for 1 turn. I've never used Leo's really, but it was build and I used it's benefits. Combined with Sun Tzu it's a nice Wonder. It will be used again, for spear/pike/musket -> Inf -> Med Inf, cannons -> Artillery and tanks -> Modern Armor.The total savings can easily exceed 2000 gold.

* * *

Another totally random thought: with a growing territory and rail coming up, let's peel off some workers from our size 12 cities in between cavs. I think we have sufficient right now. I've captured 9 workers in 1 city and several others on other locations. And we'll get more. We should use highly corrupted cities with a lot of food for this. I think I've already started a worker-pump in former-Iro lands. Worker every 3 turns. It's not that important yet, as our core is improved enough. But don't stop the pump !! We'd be needing 2 or 3 pumps that pump out a worker every 3 or 4 or 5 turns. But don't use size-12 cities; get them producing the core of our army and a universities and banks to sustain our research and fighting-capabilities.

SJ Frank

Aug 24, 2004, 04:55 AM

Party like it's 1999. You only forgot 1000 years.

I mean, in the game. BigNHuge will get to celebrate the first millennium during his 10th turn, while I'm left with the clean up duties when I inherit the game :lol:

I've started Copernicus (in our highest science-generating city) to speed up science and I've started Sistine's as a prebuild for JS Bach's or Smiths.

Sorry, I meant what wonders had the AI's started. I don't mind losing Copernicus to a cascade, because it's not a good wonder for a huge map anyways. Smith and Bach's both sounds good.

If the total saving of Leo's is only in the 2~3 thousand range, then Leo's is not worth it. 600 middle age shields are worth a lot more than 2000 gold in the later ages.

The worth of the 600 Leo's shields is totally subjective. In this game, I'd say that it actually isn't much, because the opportunity cost (ahem, I mean, what we could have build instead of Leo's) is so low. Our miliitary is not in dire need of 8 more knights, and Sistine's would have been useless also, because we are not building cathedrals.

Okay, so after all the analysis, I've just convinced myself that Leo's was a good call. :goodjob: We had the shield to spare, and we used it for a good purpose.

But don't use size-12 cities; get them producing the core of our army and a universities and banks to sustain our research and fighting-capabilities.

When a size 12 city has a full food box, we can afford to build a worker from it, since it will grow back the next turn. We won't even miss the production and commerce from that worker, since that's calculated after growth.

jb1964

Aug 24, 2004, 08:08 AM

Leo's calcs...

I upgraded a number of pikes and a spear or two to the muskets that ring our lower peninsula. Also upgraded cats to trebs and warriors and non-elite swords to MI.

BigNHuge

Aug 26, 2004, 09:05 AM

Well whos up now, Im kinda behind in all these.

jb1964

Aug 26, 2004, 12:08 PM

Rik Meleet - Occupied for the moment, can switch w/ jb or SJ
BigNHuge - up
SJ Frank - On deck
jb1964 - Played last

BigNHuge

Aug 27, 2004, 11:55 AM

this is my got it, but i might only be able to play 5 turns.

BigNHuge

Aug 28, 2004, 10:24 AM

if you can wait until sunday night, id be very glad. Last minute summer real life stuffs going on. [party] [dance] [dance] :band: [dance] [dance]

SJ Frank

Aug 29, 2004, 02:05 AM

Party on, dude :rockon:

... I've always wanted to find a occasion to use that smilie

BigNHuge

Aug 30, 2004, 04:57 PM

sorry for being so late, will have it soon

BigNHuge

Aug 30, 2004, 06:37 PM

These turns take forever. Ive already got 2 turns done and i have great news, good news, and a couple of questions.

Great news- We got a MGL and have a cav army.
Good news- All Mongolian units in peninsula are destroyed.
First question- Banking is in, should i start banks or keep on truckin' the cavs/muskets?
Second question- Should we rush Military Acadamy or Herioc Epic with the second MGL we got on turn 2?

On the MGLs subject- :lol: :Party: :Dance: :Band: :Dance: :Party: :lol:

SJ Frank

Aug 30, 2004, 09:19 PM

These turns take forever. Ive already got 2 turns done and i have great news, good news, and a couple of questions.

Great news- We got a MGL and have a cav army.
Good news- All Mongolian units in peninsula are destroyed.

:goodjob:

First question- Banking is in, should i start banks or keep on truckin' the cavs/muskets?
Depend on if you feel that we have enough troops to take out the Mongols.

Second question- Should we rush Military Acadamy or Herioc Epic with the second MGL we got on turn 2?

Between the Epic and the Acadamy, I vote for the Epic. Better chance to get that 3rd leader to rush the Acadamy. :D

Rik Meleet

Aug 31, 2004, 05:43 AM

BigNHuge

Aug 31, 2004, 02:29 PM

I agree w/ Rik.

BigNHuge

Aug 31, 2004, 05:46 PM

Pre Flight- Didnt change anything. Looking good team.

IBT- Korea wants a RoP renewal. He gives us another 24g and we agree. Byzantine movement of dromons closer to us. Spainish galleys move in too. A Mongolian sword dies to a defending Cav. Then another kills the redlined cav. There will be some firm D there. Im up to the challenge. :cool: Banking comes in. Set research to Economics. Will come in 5.

Turn [1] 910AD- This turn shall forever be known as "The Defense of the Iroquios Penisula." Lets get started! Veteran Cav knocks out a Elite Mongolian sword. Loses 1 hp. Bombardment commences. Very successful bombardment. All but one hit, and all Mongolian units in the peninsula are at half life or below. :) Time to attack, but not the 2 SoD they have. One cav attacks a half life Sword and wins. No promotion. A Elite Crusader attacks a sword and wins. And we have a GL! :dance: :party: :dance: Immediatly sent to nearest town to form a devestating cav army! This is a great RNG luck as now we have a super defense of Iroquios peninsula. I know we had this rapped up here in the peninsula, but i shall dub him "Savior". Man, I cant wait to build Military Acadamy. That will just greatly increase our Conquesting time. Test out our new Army against a "SoD" of 8 units in our territory. They drop half the stack without taking a single shot! I LOVE CAV ARMIES!!!! Another cav of ours attacks the last sword in our territory and removes it. Send a sword out of Tyendenaga to kill 1 of 2 archers. He kills it without another leader. A cav from down south comes up and just murders the last archer in our territory. There are 5 units on a hill outside our territory within bombardment range, so I dub the "Defense of the Iroquios Peninsula" Finished. Time- Half a turn. :cooool:
On to the North! Hurry a Musket in Hutag. This will give us 2 extra Cavs to work with up there. Bombard and kill a pike moved into our land. I think until we get the cavs from the peninsula up there, we should have caution with our moves. Hopefully on the IBT, more of those Mongolian spears/swords/AC move in so we can bombard and kill them, then take another row of cities.

IBT- Byzantine dromons enter our waters. Sumerian and Spanish ships moving around. Our Elite Crusader "Savior" Successfully defends against 2 vet sword attacks. He is definantly holding the title. Our people want Herioc Epic. Our people want MA! A crusader comes out of Lissabon. A couple of units finish and we get a palace expansion! A couple of units finish. Micro mange.

Turn [2] 920AD- Econ in 4. More of those Mongolian units move in up north. More on that later. Now, the conclusion of our defense. It now needs no title. Mop up the last 2 units there. The peninsula is cleansed of that Mongolian smell. Hurry a musket in Kiohero. Now 2 Elite MDI and 4 cannons move since road is done. Up north we bombard the pike/spear combo to half life. First Elite attacks and makes us ANOTHER GREAT LEADER!!!! This is incredible! 2 in 2. Great for us as we can pick up Military Acadamy. Rename Cavalry Sir Big of Huge. Must have glory. :lol: A total of 0 units of the Portuguese variety are killed this turn. 7 Mongolian units are killed. If only the RNG would be this gracious all the time. End of turn.

IBT- More Byzantine movement. As well as Sumerian and Spanish. Nothing else. Small IBT. P.S. A massive Mongolian retreat!

Turn [3] 930AD- Move units into attack range of a Mongolian city. will bombard/attack next turn. Move fully healthy army north. Real quite turn

IBT- Nothing but ship movements from others.

Turn [4] 940AD- Mongolia is really spent. I sent units in expecting maybe 10 swords to counter attack. They send nothing.
Assult on Tes. Bombardment 3/5. Red lines one and yellows the other. Both are regs. Attack and take Tes without losing a single HP. A solid victory for the Portuguese. Will be able to take Batsheerit next turn. We lose nothing and kill another 7 Mongolian units.

IBT- We lose our supply of Dyes. Half our empire falls into disorder. A bad miss on my part sorry guys

Turn [5] 950AD- Get spices back from Sumeria for Theology. Sell Banking to Spain for 216gpt 10gp for Banking. They are close anyway. We are 1 turn away from Econ and they might have there research extremely slowed now. Take Basheetit. Lose 2 cavs, but get it. They will have to rest though. Army is in position to pick of random units until our force gets to next town. You can take that town next turn. Rushed MA in Faro. Also, all lux settings are good. Had to put tax at 10%. Tryed to get all luxes back, but there are none available.

I played 5 turns because i think we should slow down to five turns a play. We are at a crucial time and i want everyone to have a shot at Mongolia. Here is a save. No pic as the world looks the same. Also on the trade with Spain, we needed the cash, it funds our war for another 20 turns and we can build some banks in the back cities, as soon they wont cost a thing, as next turn is Economics and we have a clear shot at Smiths while everyone else goes for democracy.

The Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-_950AD.SAV)

Rik Meleet

Aug 31, 2004, 06:48 PM

We can make peace with the Inca; they have 4 furs + 6 Dyes; plenty of luxes we need. It will solve our happyness problem instantly. How and why did we loose Dyes BTW ?

I agree with 5 turns.

I prefer building cavs over muskets; we were going offensive; not defensive in this game. Muskets won't help us a lot. And if we do need defensive units; after Nationalism we can draft them. And there's no doubt we'll need Nationalism as it is a pre-requisite for Communism; which we will certainly need.
In the period between Rails and Amphibious warfare (which we need to kill off the Iro's who have their capital on a 1 tile island ) we can manage without any defenders. If a nation lands; our cavs (and later tanks) are there quickly enough to get rid of them. I see no need for muskets really.

I fear for the previous Iroquois cities; there capital is close and they have no culture to protect them from flipping. Perhaps get some going there.

After we kill the Mongols (and perhaps even during) go for Banks and Universities. They both help our research and to fund the war.

It's going great !!

jb1964

Sep 01, 2004, 08:45 AM

5 turn turns is good w/ me given ths size of the map and our current situation.

I am so pleased the execution of the Mongols goes well.

SJFrank, you're up!

SJ Frank

Sep 01, 2004, 01:32 PM

Okay, it's my turn to be up in both SG's at the same time. I'll get to this one after BNH2.

SJ Frank

Sep 02, 2004, 03:40 AM

Turn 0 950 AD
Someone suggested making peace with the Incans, let's try that. Since they are dirt poor, peace is signed straight up.

Now, what should be trade for the lux's. Spain is even with us in tech! A few others are behind by Astronomy, Metallurgy, and Banking. The rest are backward. I buy Fur+Dye from the Incans for Chemistry. Lux is down to 0%.

We have all 8 luxuries. :D

Time to go through each city. Yep, I mean it, each city. I opened up the F1 screen and went through them one by one. Some of them required swapping a tile here and there, mostly to increase city growth. A lot of somewhat corrupt cities were changed from building units to building courthouses. I also took note of which core city still needs worker help. There were 3 or 4 of them. It didn't take that long, really :mischief:

The last thing I did in the opening turn was rushing the Library in Gandasetaigon. That's the city with 2 tiles of overlap with the Iroquois 1 tile island capital. I fully expect our library to eventually out-culture the Iro's palace. :lol:

press enter

IBT:
- Isabella demands 30 gold, sure, you just bought a place on our "list". And next she wants to renew peace straight up, I say yes to that too.
- Renew Gem deal with the Zulus for 43gpt. I guess I should have checked last turn. Gem as the 6th lux is much cheaper than as the 8th lux.
- Lose MDI near Hutag, Fortified Cav on mountain defends against Mongol MDI.

Turn 1 960 AD
- wake workers near Oil Springs and start irrigating.
- Economics -> Physics in 5 at +17 gpt.
- move some Muskets that were guarding in-land cities towards the front.
- Canons fire, and two cavs kill mongol pike + archer near Hutag
- cavs kill 2 spears near Atlay.
- Seige of Baruun-Urt, army attacks twice, killing 2 vet pikes, leaving a MDI showing on top. Vet Cav kills MDI and we takes the city. The Army, with 2 movement points left, moves back to take the high ground near Tes. More troops move into the new city.
- Cannons moves back onto the road near Tes. There are two stacks of Mongol pikes/MDIs near the city.
- Coimbra switch from University to Heroic Epic, due in 2, that was a pre-build, right?
- Lissabon to Smith, due in 16.
- Oporto has the only pre-build going, it should become Bach.
- Sir Big N Huge is sent to the back line to deal with the occasional landing. Say, do you want to parade him through the streets of our capital? He's headed that way. :lol: An Elite cav that was guarding the NE penisula is sent forward.
- Workers that were building mines in the ultra corrupt regions were told to do something more useful, like straighten out the road to the front.

IBT: More Mongol troops show up near Tes.

Turn 2 970 AD
- Rush Marketplace of Incense Coast
- Army kills 3 Mongol pikes and 1 MDI, next turn there will be 5 Mongol MDI's next to Tes, but our boys will be ready for them.

IBT: Spain declare war on the Byzantines

Turn 3 980 AD
- Rush Temple in Diu, that's the city receiving heavy culture pressure from the English.
- Cavs kill 4 MDIs and wound 1 near Tes, losing 1.
- Could have avoided losing that cav if I had used cannons, but the cannons and other cavs are marching towards Dahan, under cover of a vet Musket. We have only that one musket on the front, though more are on the way.
- Army hits pike on flat ground. The RNG finally catches up with us and yellow-lines the army.
- Coimbra finishes Epic, starts a new pre-build.

IBT: Mongols change target, they are now after Baruun-Urt.
Volcano near Incense Coast Errupts.

Turn 4 990 AD
- Troops kill 4 mongol MDI's near Baruun-Urt. Losing one cav.
- SOD next to Dahan.
- Army rests.
- Trading incense to Carthage for 9gpt.

IBT: Spains starts Bachs.
Arabs finishes Sistine in Medina.
These two events happen in that order, which means the the current Spanish Bach build is NOT a cascade. If they build Cop next turn, then we should have a good shot at Bach. Otherwise, it's just tough luck for us that they researched Music Theory the turn that Sistine gets build.

Turn 5 1000 AD
- Takes care of the Mongol MDI's near Baruun-Urt.
- Leaving some units unmoved for the next leader...

NOTES
- Braga needs to have some of its hills and mountains mined
- Centralia needs more irrigation
- The Great North East Irrigation Project has reached the swamp area.
- Beware that there are 2 unguarded cities near the Mongol pike pair. Use the upcoming troops to take them out.
- The Darhan Task Force is ready to strike this turn, have fun :)
- There are 8 more unmoved cavs in Tes and Baruun-Urt, for clean up purposes once we take Darhan (and gain control of the roads).
- There is a Mongol galley coming down the NE coast, we have 2 elite swords and 1 cav shadowing it. There are also two Carracks near. They are for you to start our GA, whenever you feel like it :)
- I haven't checked diplomacy this turn yet. Musical Theory is out there, but we don't need to buy it until our pre-build is at 600 shields.

Here is the Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-1000AD.SAV)

jb1964

Sep 02, 2004, 08:44 AM

First off I'm going to rename "Gandasetaigon" to "Gand" or maybe just "G". These names are killing me. :)

Nice notes and good summary.

Well done SJ! :goodjob:

Rik Meleet

Sep 02, 2004, 03:08 PM

BigNHuge

Sep 02, 2004, 05:33 PM

I thought, building in Faro, we would have armies for when we hit guerillas/infantry. I thought it was a good idea, sorry if it was bad.

SJ Frank

Sep 02, 2004, 07:00 PM

Spain pays a really big amount for Economics. Music + 82 gpt + 228 gold. Not that I advise signing it before we finish Smith's, but certainly interesting to see whether the price goes up or down.

When Smith's finishes we can sell Economics to Spain (or Physics if you prefer) for big money.
Looking at Big's last turn, the full price of a monoply tech (Banking) was 216gpt + 10gp. Last I checked, Spain had only around 120 gpt available. She's not nearly ready to pay the full price yet.

Another thing;
90% = Physics in 2 turns; +10 gpt.
60% = Physics in 3 turns; +249 gpt.
Is 1 turn on Physics really worth 727 gold ?

I hear you. I had already shutdown research for one turn to rush some stuff that I consider to be important. I think slowing down research is good as long as the money saved is well spent.

And we'd better get Faro productive; if we don't build armies in the Military Academy then why did we build it ? In my solo games I choose to build Mil Acad in my shield-richest city; it cranks out armies quickly.
Armies are 400 shields. Faro is not a 100 shield city. Does it have 80 shield potential? I think a fully improved commie city has 15% corruption. Who wants to count the shields? :crazyeye: The Academy also makes our existing army stronger, which has already paid dividend. Since we got the Epic built almost immediately, I like the decision to build the Academy immediately.

jb1964

Sep 03, 2004, 09:24 PM

Looks like I'm up. Got it.

jb1964

Sep 04, 2004, 09:48 AM

Pre-flight – Looks like WW is setting in.

The gold was too tempting to pass up so Physics is coming in 3 turns. Smith’s in 12.

Bombardment of Darhan begins. Only two pikes and they die well.
A cav dies taking out an MI on a hill. Next cav avenges the death. The mop-up forces do quite a nice job. The pike & MI’s on the mountain can wait until they get to lower ground.
Spain and the Zulu are the only ones selling Music Theory. And Spain is the only civ with any gold so we pass on deals at this time.

IBT: Mongols want to talk. Nope. MI’s attack mountain cavs and we get two retreats and a kill.
The Zulu and Saniards are building Bach’s.

Turn 1
Well, we have 30% unhappiness about the war but things are still fine due to massive luxuries.
It would be nice to sink this Mongol galley but it seems too early to trigger the GA.
Smith’s pre-build is around 250 sheilds.
Let’s see if we can bait the wandering pikes into lower ground.
Spain’s tolerance for Econ is MT and 96gpt.

IBT: Through genius moves I manage to lose 11 cannons to the Mongols. Cattaragus (Renamed Cats) riots. The pikes come down into the open for elimination.

Turn 2, 1020 AD
Crusader dies at the hands of a 1hp pike in un-forted on grass. Thanks RNG. Next Crusader dispatches pike on first strike and becomes elite.
Troop movements and worker actions.
Pre build to 280 sheilds. No deals to be had.

IBT: Zzzz, Physics comes in and we proceed towards ToG in 5 at 90%. Spain completes Bach’s. Our Bach’s pre-build is now a Copernicus’s and Music Theory is worthless.

Turn 3, 1030 AD
Forces move on Erdenet (soon to be renamed Erd). Two retreats, no losses and the city (Erd) is ours). Mongol pike and 2 MI are slaughtered wandering through the English countryside.
Pike moving on Darhan is dispatched and we get and elite cavalry. We get a GL when elite cavalry, now named Johnny’s Charger, picks off a MI in the mountains near Darhan. Our GL is now the leader of a Cav army. Elite cavs pick off another MI and bombed pike in the mountains.

IBT: Nothing much. Calv gets picked off by MI.

Turn 4, 1040 AD
Holy cow! We just had 18 cities go from happy to net unhappy. WW just jumped beyond 50%. Time to dial up the Mongols and settle. That is, after we take Har (renamed) and kill 4 MI.

Gotta stop at this point as I’m falling asleep at the keyboard. G’nite.

OK, can’t take any more cities and the WW is heading North so we make peace. We get Nalayh (2 more incense) and Choyr in the deal.
Erd and Har are both in resistance but all other cities get very happy.
Copernicus’ in 4 turns with 320+ shields in the bank.
We trade one of our 5 extra incense to Isabella for 25gpt and 14g. Everyone else is broke.
All of our cavalry builds become banks and libraries. Two banks are rushed.

IBT: Mongols want us out. We comply.

Turn 5, 1050 AD
Spain and Zulu have discovered Printing Press. Democracy is not he government for us so PP is a worthless purchase unless we want Shakespeare’s, which IMHO, is not worth the diversion or cost.

Unit movement, worker actions, etc.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Image2.jpg

The Save, BNH01 1050 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-1050AD.SAV)

Notes:
NE Irrigation continues.
GA not triggered
I left Copernicus' as a place pre-build. Please switch back.
Smith's in 7 turns.

BigNHuge

Sep 04, 2004, 10:01 AM

what are we researching now?

BigNHuge

Sep 04, 2004, 10:02 AM

nvm, didnt see ToG

Rik Meleet

Sep 05, 2004, 04:54 PM

I guess I'm up.
I got it.
I left Copernicus' as a place pre-build. Please switch back. -> I will finish Copernicus and immediately start Newton's in the same city.

BigNHuge

Sep 06, 2004, 11:27 AM

Im gonna throw these 2 ideas i had for future games.

1.) I know that we have BNH01/02 going on right now, and BNH02 is getting good, 01 is to a point where i feel we can comfortably get the conquest once infantry/tanks get around, so im proposing BNH03- Its Greek to me... A DG game where we have to win diplomatically, by breaking the race/language barriers. I know that all civs speak english in our versions, but I think it would be fun, a game where we have at least 1 civ from each culture in the game, and we earn there trust to bring Alexander to glory.

And my other idea is a PBEM game. This one is just something i thought of to have a little fun, without time worries.

If you have any thoughts on this, please speak! Need feedback. Thanks guys.

Rik Meleet

Sep 06, 2004, 04:10 PM

IHT:
Do a round of F4. I can get PP and Music theory easily, but decide not to. Those techs are worthless to us with Bach's already build and I do not want to increase the science-race.
Switch Oporto to Copernicus, the rest of the cities look good.

IBT:
Niagara Falls aqua -> Lib
Kiohero temple -> court

[1] 1060 AD. Moving forces to just outside Erd. Down science to 60%, netting us +316 gpt instead of +57 gpt. We need money to cash-rush culture buildings and muskets in our new lands. Sell 9 barracks in newly captured cities. We don't need them as they automatically reappear due to Sun Tzu. It nets us 90 gold.

IBT: Wine deal ends, Selling Chemistry to Byz for Wine + 17 gold.
Silks deal ends, Iron + Incense gets us silks back + 13 gold from China.

Évora Lib -> Bank
Guarda Market -> aqua

[2] 1070 AD. Retreating many units from Erd (flip-danger). Rush some culture in corder-cities.

IBT: Inca demand Incense: Back of feather-boy; you can buy it but you won't get it for free !! Inca declares war on us. :rolleyes: Ooooh I'm scared ..

Copernicus finished. Oporto starts University (Newton's after that).
Allegheny aqua -> harbor
Darhan temple -> musket
Erd temple -> Lib
Baruun-Urt temple -> musket
Lourenço Marques worker -> worker

[3] 1080 AD. The Portu-Incan war has taken away 2 luxuries; Dyes and furs. Our happyness is still ok.
Sell Incense to Zulus for 12 gpt + 98 gold.

IBT: Byz want to talk. Are we interested in an Alliance Vs Spain? Don't think so; they are paying us 200+ gpt.
Iro's declare war on Byz.
Theory of Gravity is learned. Next tech: Magnetism.

[4] 1090 AD. Cashrush University in Oporto to speed up research (it's going to get Lib + University + Copernicus and Newton's).

IBT:
Oporto University -> Newton's
Cats court -> Lib
Leiria Bank -> University
Akwesane harbor -> granary
Incense coast Lib -> Cav

[5] 1100 AD. nothing really.

notes for next player:
* Spain looks like an interesting market for techs, but don't sell techs till a 216 gpt deal with them ends. Our peace treaty with them ends as well then.
You can then choose to drain them of all their money, but now is too early.

* Guarda is on starvation production to speed up the aquaduct.

* Finish Newton's in Oporto; it will be a killer research city.

* As soon as you have some defense in the Mongolian area, take the cavs out to protect them from being lost if a city flips. The bulk of our army is next to Erd.

* Choyr is a city which isn't helping us at all. I even considered giving it away, but since there is no threat yet I decide not to. If the Inca's land next to it; it might be wise to give it away to prevent war weariness.

* We will get our (Wonder-induced) Golden Age when Smith's finishes in 2 turns. Be prepared !

The Save 1100 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-1100AD.SAV)

BigNHuge

Sep 06, 2004, 04:31 PM

Got it, hopefully will have it tomorrow.

jb1964

Sep 07, 2004, 10:24 AM

I'm full up on SG's so count me out of the next.

BigNHuge

Sep 08, 2004, 07:36 PM

Ive started it, 2 turns. We finished Smiths and now are pulling in 629gpt at GA and at 50%. Excellent. :wow:

BigNHuge

Sep 11, 2004, 06:11 PM

Well, not much happened these turns. We are in GA, in the IA, researching Nationalism in 8. Pulling over 300 gpt. Here is the save, no pic as the world is much the same.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01_1150AD.SAV

SJ Frank

Sep 11, 2004, 08:33 PM

I got it.

17 more turns of GA, 9 more turns of peace. It looks like a set quiet builder turns.

SJ Frank

Sep 13, 2004, 04:33 AM

Peaceful and quiet

Turn 0 1150 AD

My goodness, it's the twelves century already. How time flies.

The portugues nation is in a golden age. We are in the Industrial Age, and the only one in the world, in fact. Spain is the next most advance nation, and they are two techs away.

We are reseaching Nationalism, which is due in 5 turns at +331 gpt. Can we do it any faster? Yes, 100% research nets us the tect in 4 turns, while still runing a slight 70 gpt profit.

Where did that money come from? Well, Spain is scheduled to pay us 268 gpt for the next 20 turns. BigNHuge had just made that trade on his last turn, I guess that's why he was reluctant to push research to 100%.

Look, I just found another way to make some more money. We were paying Zulus 43 gpt + ivory for their gem. I send them the knowledge of Economics instead.

Looking over our cities, most of them are building banks and universities. I change the two that were building cathedrals over to courthouses -- when we become commie, every city will need a courthouse.

Diu is falling behind the English in culture again. I spend 63 gold to investigate the offending city, they have a lib, which have generated a total of 36 culture so far. They are building a university, due in 33 turns. I image we don't need to stay ahead of them for long. After the invasion, it won't matter... The library in Diu is rushed for 256 gold.

That's it for turn 0.

Turn 1 1160 AD

Some building complete, start some others.

IBT: Arabs and Incans sign peace, Byzantines and Iroquois sign peace.

Turn 2 1170 AD

More buildings complete, Guimaraes runs out of buildings to build, and starts cav.

Turn 3 1180 AD

scale science back to 80% and still get Nationalism in 1 turn.

Turn 4 1190 AD

Nationalism -> Steam Power. Communism can wait until after the GA.
Sell Incense to Korea for 18 gpt.
3 more cities finish infrastructure and start cav production.

IBT: an Incan ship shows up! renew incense deal with the Carthegians.

Turn 5 1200 AD

Start sending some workers towards the core for RR purposes.
Decides that we may want Magellan's. Switch Coimbra to a Palace pre-build. It's just a thought, the next leader could switch it back to bank with no shield lost.

NOTES:
- There is an Incan galley off the west coast near Diu. It should provide some amusement.
- The peace treaty with the Mongols will be up in 4 turns.
- There are 12 more turns to go on the GA.
- look for opportunities to use policemen in the North. I found one, there may be others as the cities grow. It's worth it if it gets the city into WLTK day as well.
- None of the worker projects in the North are important, once Steam Power comes in, get them to build the military rail net first.
- Once we become communist, those formally corrupt cities will not need the courthouse as their first building anymore. Something to keep in mind when managing those cities.
- When do we want to switch government? As soon as the GA finishes?
- Our palace pre-build is worth 800 shields, the Universal Suffrage is also 800 shields. both of those can be used as the pre-build for the ToE (600 shields) and Hoovers (800 shields). I think it's too early to start the pre-build now, but in another 10 turns or so, it may be time to get them started.

The SAVE (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-1200AD.SAV)

I think JB is next. :)

jb1964

Sep 13, 2004, 07:18 AM

Hey gang, I'll try and grab this this evening.

jb1964

Sep 13, 2004, 10:44 PM

Turn 0, 1200 AD
All look well.

IBT: Zzzzz

Turn 1, 1210 AD
A few builds complete and we queue up cavalry and a frigate
Spain has Navigation. We trade ToG for Navigation, 108gpt and 12g.

IBT: Trade TM’s w/ Cathy. Spain’s building Newtons. We get it in 2. J

Turn 2, 1220 AD
No new techs out there.
Worker actions. We need a few more for Steam in 2 so I switch and rush a few.
Rush a frigate.

IBT: Incans are still skirting our coast.

Turn 3, 1230 AD
Rushed frigate gets sunk by Incan galley. Wonderful.
Choyr is under a ~1.4% chance of flipping. We rush the harbor and queue up a rifle.

IBT: Steam is in and we go for Commie at 100% in 4 turns. Inca land an elite knight and a regular sword.

Turn 4, 1240 AD
We start Iron Works in Cats.
No trades to be had for any techs. All other civs are low on gold.
Incan visitors are dead from lead poisoning.
Start railing.
We loose our incense for 25gpt w/ Spain.

IBT: Nothing

Turn 5, 1250 AD
Again, not a much action. There are pleanty of fortified units in the North that can still be used this turn. The next leader is free to declare on the Mongols and rip them a new one. I would have gone after them but I'm beat.

The Save, 1250 AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01_1250AD.SAV)

SJ Frank

Sep 14, 2004, 01:59 AM

We start Iron Works in Cats.

[party] :beer: [dance]

... on a huge map too!

jb1964

Sep 16, 2004, 09:49 AM

Is BnH up or still dealing w/ RL?

SJ Frank

Sep 16, 2004, 02:17 PM

Since the last three players played were BigNHuge, me, and JB, in that order, I think Rik is up.

The line-up, as it stands:
Rik Meleet<------ up
BigNHuge<------ on deck
SJ Frank<------ in the hole
jb1964<------ just played

Rik Meleet

Sep 16, 2004, 03:56 PM

OK, I got it. Playing tomorrow most likely.

Rik Meleet

Sep 18, 2004, 10:09 AM

IHT:
A round of F4:
England: No active treaties, up PP & Music, down ToG & Mag
Iroquois: No active treaties, down an Age.
Mongols: No active treaties, down Edu & Gunpowder
Carthago: No active treaties, down an Age
China: Silks <-> Iron+Incense (1), Down Theo & Inv.
Zulu's: 12gpt <-> Incense (3). Gems (10), up PP & Music, down ToG & Mag
Russia: No active treaties, down an Age.
Sumeria: Spices (10), Down Bank & Chem & Nav.
Spain: 268 gpt (10). 108 gpr (16), Up PP & Music, down Mag.
Inca: AT WAR , Up PP & Music, Down Physics & Metallurgy
Arabia: No active treaties, Up PP & Music, Down Physics & Metallurgy
Byzantine: Wines (1) Up PP & Music, Down Econ, Nav, Phys, Metallurgy.
Korea: Rop (5), 18 gpt <-> Incense (14), Up PP & Music, down Mag.
Aztecs: No active treaties, Still ancient Age in 1250 AD.
Germany: No active treaties, Still ancient Age in 1250 AD.

Spain has Navigation. We trade ToG for Navigation, 108gpt and 12g.Why did we need Navigation ?? I woul never have given up ToG for that. 108 gpt is too little. But that's the charm of a succession game, people do things differently than you would have.

Change Batsh to rifle, so all cavs there can join the war. Hurry him. Hurry rifle in Choyr. Notice tht we -only- have 37 workers when railroads are to be laid. Switch cities from Frigates to workers.
Switch Darhan to rifle and rush it. Same for Nalayh. And Baruun-urt. And Erd. Switch Tes to canon, due in 2 and then workers. Badajoz rushes its market so it can become a worker pump next turn.

IBT: Zulu, Korea start Magellan. We loose our Wines.
São Paulo: finishes (i can't remember), but starts Privateer. They are fun in conquests.

[1] 1255 AD - Trade Economics + Navigation + Incense + Ivory to Byz for Wines + PP + Music + 39 gold. Cancel the Chinese Silks for Iron+Incense deal. Resign it when they include their WM. We can now see a lot of the world.
Cancel peace with the Mongols.

Capture Hovd for no losses. Capture Kazan, for the loss of 1 cav. Capture Ereen for no losses. Canons are just useless in this fast campaign. fortifying them in Hovd and Erd.
Positioning troops for Almarikh.
Starting a North-South military railroading project.
War weariness has already started :eek:
Drop down Commie from 2 to 3 turns (60%) to raise luxes to 20%.
Make peace with Inca for their TM. Then trade them Incense + Metallurgy for Furs + Dyes + WM.

IBT: Palace expands; I plant some trees. Inca start Magellan. Byz too.
NO mongols enter our lands !!

[2] 1260 AD - battle for Almarikh; 3 losses 1 retreat, but we capture the city with 2 workers.
Battle of Choybalsan, 1 loss and 1 promotion. Carrack sinks Mongol galley.

IBT: We loose some cavs in the counterattack and a defending Cav in Almarikh gets Heroic Status:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Almarikh_Meleet.JPG

Iro want to talk. WM trade ? don't think so.
Enhlish start Magellan.

[3] 1265 AD - Now what to do with the leader. 2 options:
1 - send him to Cats to rush the Iron Works. 2 - Army. I decide on Army as Cats can handbuild IW in 15 turns, the journey takes 3 turns, the leader is exposed to capture and we won't get more leaders in that time. Filling it with Elite's only.
Rush rifles in Kazan, Ereen and Hovd.
There are 13 MDI's, 10 Pikes and 2 AC's next to Choybalsan. The fighting this turn will be to remove that thread.
Positioning Northern task-force to capture Mandalgovi next turn.

IBT: Arabs start Mgellan.
Arabs want to talk. TM trade? No, thank you. Zulu want to renew the Incense trade. You're not paying enough; no more incense for you, Shaka. WM + 4 gold will not suffice.
We loose 3 cavs to the Mongol counterattack. Communism comes in. Choose Medicine -> Electricity -> Sci Meth. Medicine in 4.
Not revolting yet, after the Mongol conquest has finished. Pentagon message pops up.
Privateer finished in São Paulo. Starts another.
War Weariness hits level 2; about 35% - 40%.

[4] 1270 AD - Lissabon finished its Cav and starts on the Pentagon.
Battle for MAndalgovi. Capture it without losses. Capture 2 catapults. The 2 catapults bombard a nearby MDI, an elite cav charges and:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Mandalgovi_Heroes.JPG

Change Lissabon back to Cav, Start and leader-rush The Pentagon in Mandalgovi.

Clear the Choybalsan area of yellow units.
Spain and Korea are also in Industrial Age now.

IBT: Palace expands
Oporto cav -> Bank (we have sufficient cavs for now), also turn some other core cities of cavs.
Mandalgovi The Pentagon -> Rifle

[5] 1275 AD - Trans-Portuguese Railroad is getting done quickly.
Battle for Ulaangom and Karakorum are fought simultaneously. Karakorum (with the SoZ) is captured without losses. A worker and a cat are captured as bonus. the units have too few movement to finish off Ulaangom.
Positioning troops to strike at Ta-Tu next turn.

----------------------

Next player: A 268 gpt deal with Spain ends in 5 turns. I don't think it is wise to sign it again. Wait for the 11 turn 108 gpt deal with Spain to end, that way we can get more gpt for our techs. We are Communism + Steam ahead and Medicine is up in 3 turns.
Revolt to Communism after we've completely conquered all Mongol cities on our continent.
I haven't checked for un-happyness the last turn.
Don't let Mandalgovi be captured or flipped; it is the location of our Pentagon.
Workers: finish a rail-network and then first railroad the Cats area. It is building the Iron Works and needs all the help it can get.
Cavs aren't needed urgently any more. There are about 12 of them still on route to the Mongol lands. The Mongols are already defeated. Start some courts, banks, universities etc. In Communism those are great.
The Palace pre-build in Coimbra is for The Theory of Evolution.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Map_1275_AD_small.JPG (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Map_1275_AD_big.JPG)
Click image for larger version.

And of course: The Save 1275AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01_1275AD.SAV)

Rik Meleet

Sep 20, 2004, 12:04 PM

The line-up, as it stands:
Rik Meleet<------ just played
BigNHuge<------ up
SJ Frank<------ on deck
jb1964<------ in the hole

jb1964

Sep 20, 2004, 01:31 PM

Does your advisor have any other pet names for thost units?

Rik Meleet

Sep 20, 2004, 02:45 PM

Does your advisor have any other pet names for thost units?Oh yes, my advisors come up with real flattering pet-names. And not only for units. And I can guarantee the Staff-meetings are always 'satisfactory'...

BigNHuge

Sep 20, 2004, 02:53 PM

Rik Meleet

Sep 20, 2004, 03:12 PM

incase you didnt read my signature, ive been hacked. My files for conquest are somehow broke and whenever i try to reinstall, it doesnt work. I tried installing it on a friends comp and it worked fine. Something is definatly wrong here and i cant play anymore for a while.Oh darn; :(
What about an Online virus scan ? (http://housecall.trendmicro.com/)
Well, if you cannot play then SJ is up; I guess...

SJ Frank

Sep 20, 2004, 07:59 PM

incase you didnt read my signature, ive been hacked. My files for conquest are somehow broke and whenever i try to reinstall, it doesnt work. I tried installing it on a friends comp and it worked fine. Something is definatly wrong here and i cant play anymore for a while.

Ouch! You've got bigger problems than civ now. Did you download something naughty :spank: :joke:

I've never had good experience with virus removers, so I'd just backup the data and format the hard drive.

Anyhow, I've got the game. Good luck with your comp.

SJ Frank

Sep 21, 2004, 11:41 PM

Revolution!

Turn 0 1275 AD

We're leading the world in research. We are anailating the Mongols. We are heading towards ToE. Things look good.

The Koreans can pay 57 gpt for Saltpeter and RoP, so they do. Zulus also pay some cash for RoP.

We're running 20% lux, which gets our core into WLTKD. I continue that policy.

I change the palace pre-build in Coimbra to Magellan's Voyage, due in 5. Might as well, right?

Emerita has good shield and will finish a cav in 1, so it goes on Palace pre-build.

I also rush a library in Har.

...and off we go.

IBT: A few Mongol pike move randomly about. A few cavs and workers complete. I mostly stopped producing workers. Those can wait until after the GA.

Turn 1 1280 AD

RR, the military rail net extends to Barrun this turn.
WW increases to 33%, I respond by dropping lux to 0%... we are going to lose the WLTKD anyways. A few more specialist are hired in former mongol towns.

Attack!
Ulaangom is guarded by only one pike. A cav kills it and the city is taken. It is renamed to "Ul".
The army yellow-lines but takes out the vet pike in Ta-Du. 4 more cavs finish the job.
Two Elite cavs come out of Mandalgovi to capture Tosontsengel (Toson). It should take away some culture pressure from that Mandalgovi.
The bulk of the army is now next to Dalandzagad, the Mongol capital.

IBT: The golden age ended. :( Mongol counter attack consists of a single MDI that can't quite reach our cav.

Turn 2 1285 AD

I plan to revolt this turn, so the RR workers go first.
A privateer sinks a Mongol ship, but is redlined and facing Byzantine Dromons on the way home.
Attack goes well as expected. Dalandzadgad is captured, losing one cav. Ulassnbaatar red-lines an army, but is also captured. Both cities are renamed.
SOD's end their turn next to 2 more Mongol cities. The Mongols have no more than 3 turns left to live.

Here we go, let's revolt. Hey, only 6 turns.
And there is no war weariness in Anarchy, another plus :p

MM cities for food.

IBT: Byzantine Dromons run away. Koreans start Shakespeare's Theater.

Turn 3 1290 AD

Nothing to do except war.

Take Tabriz with no loss, but 2 elite attacks does not generate leaders either.
Take Bayanhongor. It is defended by only 1 pike.
Take Uliastay, the northern tundra city.
10 cavs are next to the last Mongol city.
Rail-roading...

Turn 4 1295 AD

Privateer loses against Dromons.
Take Tsetserleg, and the Mongols are no more.
Continue to RR.

Turn 5 1300 AD

RR...

Potential trades:
- Communism to Korea for 325gpt, 400 gold and Democracy
- Communism to Spain for some gpt.
- Trade some tech to the Zulus for their gems.
- Trade some tech to the Sumerians for their Spice.

NOTES
After coming out of anarchy, Coimbra and Alcacer need to swap some tiles in order to complete Magellans faster.

Looking at the map, there are 3 spots where we may be able to fit a city in, should we bother?

Use the workers to rail those wonder cities first.

The 1300AD Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-1300AD.SAV)

Rik Meleet<------ on deck
BigNHuge<------ fixing his computer
SJ Frank<------ just played
jb1964<------ up

Rik Meleet

Sep 22, 2004, 05:05 AM

The Palace pre-build in Coimbra is for The Theory of Evolution. I change the palace pre-build in Coimbra to Magellan's Voyage, due in 5. Might as well, right?I see no need for Magellan's as it does not help us 1 little bit. There are no Oceans to cross and why do we need extra speed for ships ?? Here we go, let's revolt. Hey, only 6 turns.Only 6 is good. I had expected 8. Take Tsetserleg, and the Mongols are no more.Excellent :goodjob:. Now let's conquer England (after the revolution).

I strongly advise to put Coimbra back on prebuild; It is Theory of Evloution and after that Hoover Dam we want, not Magellan.

And about trades: let's hold off trading until we get no more GPT from Spain. Then we sell 1 tech for a lot of gpt to them and the same tech to Korea for big gpt. We are not in real need of money, we are communistic and we pop-rush, we cannot cash-rush.

SJ Frank

Sep 23, 2004, 12:18 AM

There is another option!

IIRC our army city has about 2 turns left on the army. We could switch that city to palace pre-build. It already has slightly more than 360 shields accumulated. At 20spt, it has about 12 more turns to go on the ToE (600 shields). The timing is about right.

But, we don't have a good pre-build for Hoover right now. I kind of wished we didn't rush the Pentagon, or we had researched Industrialization before Communism. Hoover will probably be done this way: After taking the usual teches with the ToE, research Industrialization next. The rush a factory and a coal plant by disbanding units (draft them). It could get our best producing city to 60spt this way, and then the city can pump out Hoovers in about 13 turns.

* * *
Our trade situation:

Korea has 325gpt; Spain has about 300gpt; there is basically no other gpt out there. Spain's offer for Communism is significantly lower than Korea's, so they are probably researching it.

We could take a chance, by selling Communism to Spain first, taking all of their money, then selling Communism at 3rd to Korea (Korea's offer for Communism at 2nd was all gold + Demo). This way, we have a chance to clean up all remaining gpt in the game, and that's about as good as we can do.

It is taking a chance, because Communism at 3rd may be worth only about 200 gpt or less. In that case, we'll be leaving both Spain and Korea with about 100 gpt in their pocket (though Spain's 100 gpt still belongs to us for the next 11 turns).

Rik Meleet

Sep 23, 2004, 02:52 AM

IIRC our army city has about 2 turns left on the army. We could switch that city to palace pre-build. It already has slightly more than 360 shields accumulated. At 20spt, it has about 12 more turns to go on the ToE (600 shields). The timing is about right.But we desperately need armies. Why would we ever choose Magellan's over an army ??

But, we don't have a good pre-build for Hoover right now. We will have one soon, but TOE needs to be finished in Coimbra first. After that we can pick the next city for the Palace prebuild for Hoovers. It needs to be a river city. I kind of wished we didn't rush the Pentagon, or we had researched Industrialization before Communism. Hoover will probably be done this way: After taking the usual teches with the ToE, research Industrialization next. The rush a factory and a coal plant by disbanding units (draft them). It could get our best producing city to 60spt this way, and then the city can pump out Hoovers in about 13 turns.Communism is way more valuable to us than Industrialisation.

Our trade situation:

Korea has 325gpt; Spain has about 300gpt; there is basically no other gpt out there. Spain's offer for Communism is significantly lower than Korea's, so they are probably researching it.

We could take a chance, by selling Communism to Spain first, taking all of their money, then selling Communism at 3rd to Korea (Korea's offer for Communism at 2nd was all gold + Demo). This way, we have a chance to clean up all remaining gpt in the game, and that's about as good as we can do.No, why on earth do we want to have the AI to have Communism? If they want they can buy this tech, but at full price. Anf that means when Spain has stopped paying for the previous tech. And if they have already researched Communism, they can buy 1 other tech; at full price. We'll have many techs soon; due to TOE. But don't sell techs because the deal looks interesting. You can only judge the deal correctly when Spain finishes the gpt payments to us. No trades until then

jb1964

Sep 23, 2004, 01:13 PM

Got it. Will start this evening.

SJ Frank

Sep 23, 2004, 11:34 PM

To continue the discussion...

But we desperately need armies. Why would we ever choose Magellan's over an army ??

There is only one Magellan's, but we will have many armies. In a game where we're handly winning, I hate to miss out on a wonder.

Do we desperately need the army? I wouldn't call it desperate. Desperate is if we're railroading and Inca is starting spaceship parts. We're going to carve England up regardless.

Think of Magellan's as style points :D . Now, those are my personal opinion. We, as a team, as go either way on this and I'd be fine with the decision. I'm just saying that I prefer a glittering trophy over more blood and carnage.

And Magellans is useful in one instance: when we invade the next continent, and the ones after that, we will have to lead with amphibious attacks. It eliminates some of the headaches of playing on a huge map.

We will have one soon, but TOE needs to be finished in Coimbra first. After that we can pick the next city for the Palace prebuild for Hoovers. It needs to be a river city. Communism is way more valuable to us than Industrialisation.

The reason for researching Industrialization before Communism are:
- We were in GA, so we can't revolt anyways, so might as well research Communism at the tail end of the GA. Also, revolting the turn that we get the tech saves 1 turn of commerce.
- In a game where we're already ahead. Getting ToE isn't much of a plus, but getting Hoovers is. The way to get Hoovers fast, since it is an 800 shield wonder, is to rush a factory and coal plant in a city, and have a double pre-build of palace+US for the ToE and Hoover. Ideally, the Hoover pre-build should be slightly ahead of the ToE pre-build. It should reach 800 shield the turn after the ToE pre-build reachs 600 shields, for an immediate Hoover. This is only possible if we can use the US as one of the pre-build.

No, why on earth do we want to have the AI to have Communism? If they want they can buy this tech, but at full price. Anf that means when Spain has stopped paying for the previous tech. And if they have already researched Communism, they can buy 1 other tech; at full price. We'll have many techs soon; due to TOE. But don't sell techs because the deal looks interesting. You can only judge the deal correctly when Spain finishes the gpt payments to us. No trades until then

The full price of Communism is more than 500gpt (Korea is willing to pay 300gpt + Democracy for it). There is no way an AI out there can pay the full price any time soon.

What's the idea behind selling tech to the AI? We want to slow their research, slow their trading, right? We can do that by getting all of their free gpt by selling Communism, right now. I think it's better than letting them use that money for the next 11 turns.

Besides, don't we want the AI's to switch from Democracy to the more advanced government of Communism :lol:

Rik Meleet

Sep 24, 2004, 03:06 AM

The idea is to slow them, indeed, by draining their gpt. But selling a tech for gpt (or 2 or 3) is essential here. You don't slow their research if you keep selling them techs for gpt every few turns. In fact; you are speeding their research.
If we sell 1 tech for a mountain of gpt; and sell that tech to other nations as well (for gpt) and then refrain from selling techs for as long as the gpt payments last we have their gpt and for only 1 tech, not 3.

I've spoken my POV on Magellan; in the end the active player decides all, so the decision is JB's.

TOE: If you do the techs for gpt my way; the ToE is important, even if you are ahead tech-wise.

BTW: SJ, do you know the penalty for discussing with a moderator ;) ?? I could ban you ... :devil2: :evil: :satan:

:joke:
Seriously, I would never abuse my mod-powers like this. I prefer more subtle ways to abuse my mod powers :lol:

jb1964

Sep 24, 2004, 10:51 AM

You two are making my head hurt. That is, you're making me think and that's something I try and avoid at work.

I see ToE and Hoovers as superior to Magellans. To obtain all of these would be a nice trick. Anyone think we can do it?

Also, I normally sell techs as soon as the AI's can offer a reasonable amount of gold. That is, I'm too impatient to wait for their cash flow to jump and sqeeze the maximum amount of coin from them. For a change of pace, I would advocate stressing the contribution margine and time our sale to what would amount to the AI's next budget cycle. In other words, sell when their gpt deal has ended.

I think this tactic drives me to stress ToE even more. I want Motorized Transportation so far ahead of our opponents that they'll never have the opportunity to build a single tank. Now that would be an abuse of power. :)

BTW, I finished one SG last night when I found two settler laden galley's wandering the high seas and sank them so this one is now my focus.

SJ Frank

Sep 24, 2004, 09:26 PM

:joke:
Seriously, I would never abuse my mod-powers like this. I prefer more subtle ways to abuse my mod powers :lol:

:eek:

*pokes at the new message in the PM box, with a 10 feet pole* :nuke:

... okay, this one's safe...

I like discussions like this, it leads to more headaches for other players. :lol:

Sounds like JB has now some definite ideas about what he wants to do. The game is yours. Take it away.

jb1964

Sep 25, 2004, 12:16 AM

Turn 0, 1300 AD – In anarchy. Moving forces towards the English frontier. A few cities in a bit of cultural pressure.
Deal w/ Isabella expires in 6 turns.

IBT: Batsh riots. Renamed Bat.

Turn 1, 1305 AD – Anarchy. No new techs from our fellow inhabitants.

IBT: English and Spanish are building Shakespeare’s. A Byzantine Dromon sails by our privateer some damage (2/5). I guess that was inflicted by the Inca.

Turn 2, 1310 AD – Anachy. No new techs.

IBT: Aztec wanna talk and would like to trade TM’s. We try for a better deal but make none. Byzantines and Inca make peace.
We are now Commies.

Turn 3, 1315 AD – Communist. No new techs for sale. Koreans are holding a little bit of cash so this bodes well for a deal w/ the Spanish while still making a profitable deal w/ the Koreans.

Coimbria has about 325s banked w/ 12spt.
Faro has 385s w/ 16spt.
Emerita has only about 110s w/ 26spt.

OK, only one of these cities can be a big pre-build because the only big-ticket item we have to bank shields is a palace.

Medicine in 2 turns at 80%. Electricity and SM will be about another 20 turns.
Coimbria could have ~565s, Faro ~700s (overkill for ToE), and Emerita ~630s.
OK, Faro builds an Army, Coimbria stays w/ Magellan’s, and Emerita starts banking for ToE.

So in ~20 turns we get two techs. Industry, AT &/or Electronics. AT is one. Electronics then sets us up for Hoovers in about 7 turns while we go for Industry. Grab Industry and we can time the shields for Hoovers while simultaneously able to build factories.

The Mongols are still dead.

IBT: Nothing whatsoever.

Turn 4, 1320 AD
Korea and Spain have discovered Nationalism.
Rail roading.

IBT: We rework the deal for incense w/ the Koreans for 19gpt netting an extra gold. Woohoo! Carthage cancels the 9gpt for incense.
We get Medicine and set research for Electricity in 8 at 100%.

Turn 5, 1325 AD
Worker actions.
If the next leader wants to eviscerate Elizabeth have at it.

Go nuts.

The save... (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-1325AD.SAV)

Rik Meleet

Sep 25, 2004, 08:31 AM

that would be me; I've got it

Rik Meleet

Sep 25, 2004, 03:45 PM

IHT:
So we are Communistic. Spain's 108 gpt deal will end in 1 turn. Korea, England, Spain and Zulu have Democracy and England, Korea and Spain also have Free Artistry. Electricity is 8 turns away at 100% science. I smell trading next turn.

I'm going to witch Coimbra from Magellan to Palace soon.

MM cities; With 0% tax, we don't need money-makers. Banks and markets are cancelled; courts, libs and granaries queued.

Moving some Cavs out of cities which have a flip-danger. And into a better position to strike at England soon.

IBT: Zulu start Shaka's Pierce Theater.

[1] 1330 AD - Dialing up Shaka. Buy Democracy + Gems for Incense + Magnetism + ToG + 530 gold. Then sell Nationalism to Zulus for Free Artistry + WM + 533 gold + 2 gpt.
The Koreans can afford more than the Spaniards. Sell Medicie to Korea for WM + 420 gpt + 136 gold. Then to Spain for WM + 195 gpt + 53 gold. Sell Spain Incense for 47 gpt.
Trade our Incense + Economincs to Sumeria for Spices + 8 gold.
These deals have completely drained Korea, Zulus and Spain for the next 20 turns, gaining us a virtually complete WM, 664 gpt, 201 gold and 2 luxuries.

Upgrade 28 muskets to rifles for 840 gold.

Improving the Faro-area (army producer). Can't efficiently change Coimbra to a prebuild; SJ Frank will have his Magellan there. Start Shake's in Lissabon, Emerita on Palace.

MM all cities.

We have no deals with England; and England has no MPP's. We are strong compared to England. Time to pick a fight.
Demand English troops to leave our soil and in no time England complies. I call ELisabeth an ugly cow and she just smiles at me. Then I declare war openly.

Raze Ipswich to the ground. Capture Berwick. Capture Norwich. Capture Leicester. Kill some units and Mr Cabal comes to visit us:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Caballero_di_Victoria.JPG

I make an army. I only put elites in it, a very powerful army it is. Capture Bath.

IBT: English mass their modern troops into position to counterattack Bath nect turn. Their forces consist of 5 warriors, 7 archers and 1 cav. :lol:
A lot of We love the Prince days starting.

[2] 1335 AD - Attack on Bristol fails, Capture Cambridge. Sending a lot of workers back to our core to railroad the Wonder areas.
Do a round of MM-ing. Do a round of Diplo. Sell Ivory to Spain for WM + 35 gpt + 207 gold.
Establish embassies with everyone. Madrid finishes Magellan in 6 turns; at 14 spt.
Poor aztecs have no resources and no luxes. And no city improvements in Tenoch.
Investigate Wonder Cities.
Barcelona: Shakes - 18 turns; 16 spt.
Seoul: Shakes - 15 turns; 15 spt.
Hlobane: Shakes - 22 turns; 16 spt.
Lissabon: Shakes - 9 turns; 35 spt.
Can't investigate Nottingham due to war.

We are on the virge of killing the cascade !!

IBT:
We finish Magellan in Coimbra. English, Spanish, Koreans and Zulu start Shake's (??)...
Hovd grows in 2 and finishes a worker in 2; like clockwork. Excellent worker-pump.

[3] 1340 AD - Now Madrid is building Shake's for Spain. Magellan is 400 Shields; Spain had max 400 - (14X6) + 13 = 329 shields put into it and now 343 shields. Shakes is 450, so it would take them max 8 turns to finish it. Lissabon also needs 8 turns; perhaps I can lower that.
Mining the Lissabon-area. Still 8 turns.
Reinvestigate Madrid to check the numbers: Shake's in 7. :(
We have invested about 200 shields already. It's either wait and hope someone researches a Wonder tech, or switch now. Or switch research to Industrialization and go for Universal Suffrage. But US won't do us any good, no WW in Commie. I decide to switch to Cathedral.

Capture Bristol, Reading, Dover and Oxford.

IBT: Palace expands.

[4] 1345 AD - Capture Liverpool, Hastings
Workers are improving the Iron Works location.

IBT: Inca demand Ivory. After laughing in their faces for 30 minutes I consider the deal seriously. I think we are still importing some of their luxuries and loosing those could be be bad. I give it to them. Must be a first, being the top power in the world and caving to a demand ...
English manage to kill a cav.

[5] 1350 AD - Railroading to the front. The armies are going to rest and heal.

I've done no Micro-Managing this turn, that is up for the next player. The armies are fortified in Liverpool (3) and Hastings (2) - healing.

Good luck !!

The Save 1350 AD -> The liberation on England (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BNH01-1350AD.SAV)