Always War Sid C3C 1.22 Planning thread

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/jeff.jpg
Let loose the dudes of war.

Another chapter in a series of Always War tiny continent maps by the Grumpy Old Men of War Always. Yeah War Always, I meant to do it that way. :mischief: GOMOWA
HNDY04-AWD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=90672)|HNDY03-AWDG (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=87859)|HNDY02-AWE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=85204)
HNDY01? - err, ugh, I lost the link to that one. :p


C3C 1.22 Patch
Level: Sid
Variant: Always War
Civilization: TBD – Each player will post a log & save after 30 turns and we’ll vote on which game we want to continue with. You pick whatever civilization you want. Make sure your map setting are consistent with those shown here.
Continents: 70% Water
Size: Tiny
Age: 5 Billion
Temperature: Temperate
Climate: Normal
Barbarians: Sedentary (We can use the cash)
Rivals: 3 Randomly Selected
AI Aggression: Normal
Victory Condition: All are enabled. We could lose to a UN vote [if we get that far ;) ] We’ll take a win any way we can get it, but conquest or domination are preferred.
Culturally linked starts: Off
Respawn: Off
Preserve Random Seed: On
Cultural Conversion: On
Patch: 1.22 C3C

Roster
Handy
T_McC
Greebley [Out 7/24 to 8/7]
Barbslinger
Yom [Out until ??]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/HNDY02_luckycandle.gif
Lucky candle to light the way.


Always War Boilerplate as we play it
You may only trade when you first meet a civilization, and must declare war on the same turn after trading is complete. If you see a new AI unit, you must make contact & declare war that turn. Absolutely no turn based trade (such as GPT) allowed. If you see a new face on F4, you are obligated to declare war that turn (after trading). Players must declare war if they are exploring and see AI units, but are not required to actually attack the units they come in contact with. No peace treaties, ever. You may check F4 as often as you like to spy on the AI's tech, resources, luxuries & city count. We are not allowed to build embassies .

Discuss any move that seems exploitive before doing it with the team. Although there are not too many exploits available in AW, we’ll follow the forbidden blatant exploits banned by GOTM and RBCiv such as no "Free Wealth". Other normal game exploits such as "Baiting the AI" with an empty city to create a kill zone are an AW tradition and are allowed. Also, you ARE allowed to initially keep a city, move a settler to the same spot as the city, and then abandon and immediately resettle. This is considered an exploit in RBCiv rules, but is okay in our AW games. In addition if you need to build a city one square deeper into enemy territory just to move borders to steal a resource, go for it. We may keep or raze cities, and can keep slaves. You may whip at will, including captured cities or cities where all citizens are unhappy.

SG Stuff
You have 24 hours for an "I got it" and 72 to play. If you need a one day extension, then mention this before the 72 hours are up. Players can work out skips between themselves, just post a message to the thread. If you can't play within 72 total, switch places or ask for a skip. We will play 10 turns at first, and possibly fewer later (5) if the turns begin to take too long.

The wording is slightly off - We can't do any per turn deals which covers more than gpt deals.

Why no embassy? I always thought that was a unnecessary addition by people who don't realize that embassies don't work while at war. It wasn't in the initial always war rules I read AFAIK. It seems to me that if you "pretend" to be friendly by making a trade, then you can also "pretend" to be friendly to know where his capitol is before declaring war.

As you know I will be on vacation until the 8th which means I may miss the beginning of this game. I will see if I can do a start before I leave...

[Edit: maybe this should have been HNDY05aa, so our next attempt can be ab then ac... when we reach zz we give up :joke: (I hope) ]

The wording is slightly off - We can't do any per turn deals which covers more than gpt deals.

Why no embassy? I always thought that was a unnecessary addition by people who don't realize that embassies don't work while at war. It wasn't in the initial always war rules I read AFAIK. It seems to me that if you "pretend" to be friendly by making a trade, then you can also "pretend" to be friendly to know where his capitol is before declaring war.

As you know I will be on vacation until the 8th which means I may miss the beginning of this game. I will see if I can do a start before I leave...

[Edit: maybe this should have been HNDY05aa, so our next attempt can be ab then ac... when we reach zz we give up :joke: (I hope) ]

I tweaked the AW definition to "no turn based trade". See if you like it.

Embassies... I dunno, personal preference I guess. It just seems like in RL war you would abandon your embassy, so it would not be of much use. Also, it makes the AW game a little harder. But, it's no big deal to me, if the team wants to build them I'm ok with it.

I wanted to start now hoping you could squeeze in a 30 turn start to post before you left for two weeks :goodjob: of vacation.

We may be on HNDY05ab or even ag by the time you get back. :lol:

Now this might be one of the most insane ideas ever... Sid on a tiny map? :wow:

I'll definately lurk this one. :D

Good luck, you'll need it. :thumbsup:

I guess my point is that you DO abandon your embassy when war starts. Civ handles everything exactly as you would expect in real life. There is an empty embassy building that does nothing during the war.

I believe pre-C3C the embassy would still function during war, at least as far as allowing you to discern the diplomatic state between two nations. As Greebley said, in C3C AW all you get for you embassy is a peek at the enemy capital. I'm not sure how much that is worth, especially on a Tiny map. I guess it helps with targeting.

I agree that Greebley should be back in time for our 4th try at this. :lol:

P.S. From Greebley's suggested numbering system, HNDY05zz would be try 676.

Ah I see, the rule is a PTW AW rule. That makes sense and explains why it would appear in some ppls rule list. I was wondering about that.

Just think of how much older and grumpier we would be if we reached zz. If we played one a week, that would be 13 years, and after playing and losing 675 games in a row we would be decidedly VERY grumpy. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Now this might be one of the most insane ideas ever...


P.S. From Greebley's suggested numbering system, HNDY05zz would be try 676.

If the definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over & over expecting a different result, we'll be certified long bfore #676. :)

However, Sling3 has certainly turned a different result than Sling1 and Sling2 -- perhaps insanity works!

I was getting grumpy just imagining the Sid level AI and you're talking about 676 tries! :lol:

I'm interested to see which civ Slinger & Yom pick. I think Greebley & T_McC already have their picks lined up. I'm still thinking some. I like the Maya, and China is kind of a sentimental favorite. Then there is always Babylon...not.

Don't forget 1.22 patch.

I'll probably go with Persia. Getting a quick kill on the other civ on our continent will be critical. If we can control our continent early we may have a chance. Build all our infrastructure, get the GL if possible and then use AI landings for leaders.

Now we know why they call him Smoke

Swords beaten into plows? Unescorted Settlers in AWS? A farmer gambit opening? What is that guy Smoke- Jaguar smoking anyway?

Turn 0 4000 BC
Remember, it's 1.22
I picked the Maya. Same way my wife picks a football team to cheer for. I like their uniforms.
This was the first start I rolled. I was prepared to wait for a good one, but I’m not sure we could hope for much better than this. Ivory would have been nice to see.
Settle on the spot.
Oh my gosh, it looks like it could be a choke point.
Okay. Warrior code or Bronze working?
Decide to get BW. Maybe math next, then WC which we need for the UU. If we are still alive.
Set build to warrior who will explore north a tiny bit, then south, away from the AI.
Since we are agricultural, we can mine both cows & still get +5fpt.
F10 check: Greece, Inca, Carthage. At least we won't have to put up with those stinkin' Byzantine fire boats.

Turn 1 3950
Mining.

Turn 2 3900
Mining.

Turn 3 3850
Mining.

Turn 4 3800
Mining

IBT
We grow. Mine done. Warrior -> Warrior (3)
Working both cows.

Turn 5 3750
Start Road. We get another warrior in 3, so this guy stays home for MPO duty to keep research up.

Turn 6 3700
Road

Turn 7 3650
Road done, move to chop a granary.
The famous AWS farmer gambit opening.

Turn 8 3600
Warrior – granary

Turn 9 3550
Dyes and Jungle to the north.

Turn 10 3500
There is a hill N of the Dyes. Lots of Jungle.

Turn 11 3450
Chop done. Move over to mine cow

Turn 12 3400
Exploring.

Turn 13 3350
Ivory 8 tiles from our capitol. So near & yet so far.
We are size 4, so sliders are 20.40 with BW due in 36. :eek:

Turn 14 3300
No guts no glory. I’m gonna scout around the Ivory.

Turn 15 3250
Looks like the Ivory is on a little Pennisula.

Turn 16 3200
Granary next turn. We are size 4 and grow in 2. I’ll pop an unescorted Settler who can head S to a fish I see (That’s S away from the AI). No sign of Mr. AI Yet. We could use an extra city for the ca$h.

Turn 17 3150
Nothing

Turn 18 3100
Nothing.

Turn 19 3050
Nothing.

Turn 20 3000
We are size 6. Slider is 10/70. :lol:

Turn 21 2950
Chichen – settler – barracks

Turn 22 2900
Adjust Sliders. BW still 28 away.

Turn 23 2850
Found Copan by the Sea -> barracks
Didn’t help our economy a whole lot. :(

Turn 24 2800
Oh great. A goody hut. Do I pop it? No way. I am not popping a hut with an undefended city. With my luck the AI sould show up on the IBT after I pop the hut.

Turn 25 2750
Moving around the Hut. Chitchin could use the MP.

Turn 26 2710
Chichen – barracks – warrior

Turn 27 2670
Chichen – warrior –settler

Turn 28 2630
Chichen – warrior – worker

Turn 29 2590

Turn 30 2550
Chopping barracks @ copan.

Notes:
Chichen is popping settlers faster than we can build military.
BW in 20 with sliders @ 20.40 and +2gpt. BW in 19 @ 0gpt is an option.
We could really use the Dyes up N. I didn’t want to send the unescorted settler, but you can send the next settler with 2 warriors up there to claim the dyes. I’d build on the hill.
Dot map below shows one way to get the hill with the ability to chain reinforcements up there.
If the AI will leave us alone for a while, we can get some cities down in a hurry.
With hindsight I should have build toward the Dyes. But unescorted, I was too chicken.

We have 2 cities, 2 workers, 4 warriors. Granary (4 turn settler factory) & Barracks in the capital. Looks like a decent chance @ a win. Curious to see what everyone else comes up with. We can always play this out later if we get a better start.

No contact - yet.

Pics follow.
Remember, it's 1.22

4000 BC

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/HNDY05_4000bc_maya.JPG

2550 BC

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/HNDY05_2550bc_maya.JPG

Preturn: I went for a spot that had a cow on a river which is a powerful start for Sumeria.


3500 BC: Meet Russia - No trade so it is war
3400 BC: Build barracks
3350 BC: First Enkidu (assisted by a tree chop).
3100 BC: Survive the onslaught of the starting warriors - Start a Golden age.
2950 BC (Aprox) - Get Warrior Code. Start Masonary
2590 BC: Kill two archers. Take a risk and succeed. The 4th Russian city is razed.

Notes:
Once we have 4 or so archers we should assault St Petersburg.

Part of the purpose of the Enkidu is to supress Russia's ability to improve lands. I hope I haven't made a mistake moving the Enkidu near Moscow onto the flat... I wanted to see if we could pillage.

This is the best Tiny AWS start I have had so far (I playtested 4-5 starts. Going for Warrior code first seems to be a good strategy here - I have tried masonry and alphabet but those were less successful). I have real hope we can damage and destroy Russia. The number of incoming units is crazy though. Pick your battles carefully.

We have 8 Enkidu and 2 archer. One archer is damaged and needs to heal.

Here is the save file for the above game

Great start Greebley. We may have a winner here. 4 towns razed :hammer: I think there is a legitimate shot at taking the Russians down in your game.
I tried 8-10 times with Persia and with Rome going for writing out of the gate. Wiped out all but one. Each time it was around 12-14 warriors/archers doing me in. I have a save at 2510BC and city borders are sited and 2 cities down. I'll play a few other tries before submitting.

I think Handy's start is an island by ourselves. If there is another AI on our continent they should have wandered by already.

Greebley's start is quite nice. If we can survive to pillage, we can probably bottleneck the Russians just north of their capital, even if we can't raze Moscow.

I say we continue with both. These are small games, and we're usually playing two AW at once. We'll just make them both AWS. [Or we can play with Handy's and wait for Greebley to get back from vacation to continue his.]

I have company in town so I won't be able to generate a start until Sunday (at the earliest).

Slammin' Sumerians :thumbsup: A city raze before 2000 BC in AWS. Nice.

2590 BC: Kill two archers. Take a risk and succeed. The 4th Russian city is razed

Great start Greebley. We may have a winner here. 4 towns razed

Did you raze their 4th town, or did you raze 4 towns? I was thinking you razed one town, the 4th one they they built.

This game looks good. I'm up for playing both of them. Either at the same time, or back to back. Let's split them off into different threads though. I'm happy to run both games, or Greebley can run the Slammin' Summerians if he wants to. Makes no difference to me. :)

I agree with T_McC's assessment. I think the Maya are playing their game as Australia. If so, it's a lot like the AWD game we just completed with Ivory on an island.

I'll be out most of next week, and with T_McC having company, I don't think Greebley will miss too much before he gets back. :)

Sorry, I razed 1 town - the fourth that they built. I think I count 4 still left though... They may have settled another one.

I think trying both starts is a good idea.

Sorry, I razed 1 town - the fourth that they built. I think I count 4 still left though... They may have settled another one.

I think trying both starts is a good idea.

Okay. Maybe T_McC & Slinger will come up with good starts. Do you want to run the game, or do you want me to. I'm fine either way.

Since I will be away, why don't you run it. We can have HNDY5AA and HNDY5AB :lol:

I just played HNDY5AA, so I see no reason you can't start it now, since all you would play it first anyway. Hopefully, you will have put the hurt on Russia when I get back. If TMcC and Barbslinger get good maps we can try those as well later on.

Until we get a win, I think we should go with very good starts like we are using in the first two. Feel free to pick a good one :) [edit: fixed silly sentence]

Yom, Are you also joining us in either or both these games?

I'm 99% sure Yom is in, but he's out of town.

Until we get a win, I don't think we should go with very good starts like we are using in the first two. :confused:

Did you mean until we get a win we should go with good starts?

Err... The sentence in my post appears to be the opposite of what I was trying to say which was:

"Lets go with good starts at first".

I will go back and change the wrong-thinking message.

[Edit: Actually, "should" is a bit too strong. If anyone wants to try a start with no bonus food, then they can go for it. A game with no bonus and no contact in 2550 BC could potentially be possible to win.

Oh, Handy, I did change 2 things: I went for wet as I wanted a river for the Agri Trait, and I went for 4 billion. 5 billion means few hills which means fewer defensive spots for towns and units. I am guessing 5 billion is harder than 3 or 4 billion.

Oh, Handy, I did change 2 things: I went for wet as I wanted a river for the Agri Trait, and I went for 4 billion. 5 billion means few hills which means fewer defensive spots for towns and units. I am guessing 5 billion is harder than 3 or 4 billion.

Okay, I went for 5 billion hoping the mountains had been eroded into hills we could build on. :lol:

Sounds like were looking for a lot of hills. :D

I also though about going for dry to make for less food for the AI, and agricultural gets 2 food from irrigated desert.

I chose wet because I was lazy and wanted a start on the river more quickly. Arid does make sense too as you say.

Do you get more hills with older terrain? or less? You are right if it turns all mountains into hills then that is more. If it just makes less hills and mountains in general, then that is less. Not sure which it is.

In general, I don't know the modifiers (e.g. wet, temperate, 3 billion) very well. I tend to prefer random when I play SP.

Just me again...

Go with Handy's start! 4-turn factory will ensure you'll have the island filled before a full round has gone by. No contacts will also help you to builds some infra before you have to war. Gonna need coastal cities though, and lots of them.

Greece, Inca, Carthage are your enemies. If you take out Carthage before they get their Merc, and when you go for Greece the hoplite will already be outdate... the Inca only have their scouts.:p This seems to be the best one so far.

Hey everyone. I'm back from my trip and we certainly cleaned house in our AW games, finishing both HNDY04 and Sling3 :D.

I haven't opened either save yet, but I definitely think that Greebley's start is stronger. We are essentially playing against 1 crippled Sid AI (basically deity with a production bonus) and 2 regular Sid AIs. In Handy's game, we have the advantage of being alone, but we will be fighting stronger AIs overseas who will have a long time to build up their strength. I can definitely be persuaded, though. Both starts are excellent :goodjob:.

Just me again...

Go with Handy's start! 4-turn factory will ensure you'll have the island filled before a full round has gone by. No contacts will also help you to builds some infra before you have to war. Gonna need coastal cities though, and lots of them.

Greece, Inca, Carthage are your enemies. If you take out Carthage before they get their Merc, and when you go for Greece the hoplite will already be outdate... the Inca only have their scouts.:p This seems to be the best one so far. I can be persuaded by Alerums stance on this except for one thing not noted. The Inca are huge cultural builders. I worry about them popping the culture win on us.

To add on my earlier comment, Ur can be a Settler factory in Greebley's save as well (even from 4-6) thanks to the Agricultural trait. Both starts have Ivory and can be pretty productive, so we're well off no matter what start we pick. We could always try another, more difficult start if the team's in a masochistic mood, though ;).

Well ... we've got a quorum now, so I propose we use both starts. I came up with an interesting one as the Greeks, but we can hold that for later. Each of these starts is stronger than what I came up with.

I think we should open new threads for each game and leave this as a planning/ideas thread. I can do that sometime tonight, and Handy should be back before his turn comes up in either game.

Thoughts?

I won't get to play until I retrun from an extended road trip. All work & no play makes me :( You may not hear from me until Sunday August 1st. If no contact, just keep skipping me.


Planning thread. You should be in management, :D

No problem, I can do it while I'm in wait mode here.

HNDY05a Mayans (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=2038754#post2038754)

HNDY05b Sumeria (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=2038755#post2038755)

This is now the planning thread. :)