Here's the minimap. What do you think! :D

Plains... :( ...but a river! :)

Where's the worker? Has the jpg been photoshoped, I wonder?

I'd like to settle on a tile that is both next to the coast and next to the river. Settling one step SW looks good to me...

There's grassland under the forest, W-SW. Another reason to settle in that general direction.

-- Roland

Hmm, looks that we play as atlantis. I swam out the sea and build an offshore capitol :rolleyes: .
I thought that after COTM02, it can't be bader. But this position looks like.
Ainwood, what are you doing with us? :cry:

Nah, I don't think this is a bad position to start. You have the combination of a river and a coast, and you have no really bad tiles (mountain, jungle, swamp, desert) in sight (well, maybe to the NW, NW, N). There are also hints of big fields of grass to the west and the south. What is really missing is a luxury, but who knows what's on the other end of the river. :)
-- Roland

I'd like to settle on a tile that is both next to the coast and next to the river. Settling one step SW looks good to me..

I think the square the settler is already on is a river. I'll move the worker onto another plains tile, then see if i should move my settler from there. This will be my first foray into the COTM. I would have played Classic 33 but i stupidly read the spoilers.

The start position looks fine to me :) Hopefully not much (if any) movement will be required at the start - unlike the last game! :crazyeye:

Bring it on.

Who's gonna guess the Civ? :goodjob:

Worker (if there is one!!!) will go west, then I'll decide whether to settle right away. Civ = Austria?? (that'd be cool although after the Dutch was already European it might be Inca or Maya instead)

Who's gonna guess the Civ?

I don't think we can use the color anymore. And there are no unit tick marks. So even less to work with than usual. Maybe we can reason out what seems likely.

Something new. We just did seafaring, so Agricultural? Summerians, maybe?

Something new. We just did seafaring, so Agricultural? Summerians, maybe?

We had the agricultural trait last time as well. Maybe we get to try out one of the other new game features such as a unit with enslavement.

Yea, the enslavement feature was what i was thinking about too. Mayans are my bet. Good AA UU, with enslavement. Could be fun. Does the Chasqui scout have enslavement?

I think the square the settler is already on is a river. I'll move the worker onto another plains tile, then see if i should move my settler from there.¨

Yes, of course the original square is also a river square, but to me it is not a good location for a capital, corruption-wise. Moving inland one square, but still staying next to the coast, must be a good long-term decition as far as I can tell.

I'm unsure about moving the worker this time. I'm not sure what I would see that would severely change the faith of my settler. But yeah, okay, I'll probably end up moving the worker W before moving the settler. It will probably just be a waste of two worker turns, but knowing ainwood, it's better to be safe than sorry. ;)

-- Roland

At the very least, being on the coast, you can tell that you're not giving up any whales or fish by moving. Only one turn...

And one last note - if it ends up being the Mayans, they of the agricultural and industrious attributes, AND of the UU that can enslave workers... putting us on a river would play to every last one of these strengths. Not that I'm complaining, but would ainwood give us such a lack of handicaps? :)

And re: Chasqui-
Yea, the enslavement feature was what i was thinking about too. Mayans are my bet. Good AA UU, with enslavement. Could be fun. Does the Chasqui scout have enslavement?

Nope, it is what it is; a scout unit. But one with an actual attack and defend.

I think I will end up moving a fair way, most probably to the south/southwest region. Doing this in several previouse maps hasn't let me down yet and in my oppinion the wandering nomads havn't chosen the best of location.
Worker to the west and more than likely the settler will begin his journey that way. I think I may be wrong as no one seems to have picked up on it yet, but is that a hoof I see 2 to the nw?

If we are Byzantine or Portugal, we'll probably want to settle on the coast to get the commerce bonus. If it's Emperor, like I suspect, then we might well want to found our capital as is.

If I'm countung correctly, 3 out of 7 of the new Civs are Seafaring, so having that trait twice in a row, wouldn't be so unusual. Also, Queen Theodora is the only woman leader of the new Civs and when was the last time ainwood let us go this long without strong female leadership? :)

I think I may be wrong as no one seems to have picked up on it yet, but is that a hoof I see 2 to the nw?

Good eyes, I didn't see that one. I think it's wheat, though, but I really don't know.

Edit: I investigated it in the editor, and now I am 90% sure it is Cattle on plains.

-- Roland

The narrow neck 2 squares to the south bears investigating. If we move our worker into the forest to the SW it may reveal more of that area. It could be a small peninsula or it could be an ideal choke point, connecting the land at the starting point to a large continent to the south. It has water on both sides, so any city built there could be used as a canal city to speed shipping from one ocean to another. I think I will investigate that area before making any decision on where to settle.

since there is only one unit showing up, the worker must have been disbanded before taking the screenshot. i think that there was a third unit that has been disbanded, and disbanding was done to hide that we are expansionistic. i would guess its portugal we are playing this month. or maybe the hettiters (aren´t they agri & expansionist?)

if its emperor or below i will probably try an OCC. i just love it when the game takes less than 10 houres...

The narrow neck 2 squares to the south bears investigating. If we move our worker into the forest to the SW it may reveal more of that area. It could be a small peninsula or it could be an ideal choke point, connecting the land at the starting point to a large continent to the south. It has water on both sides, so any city built there could be used as a canal city to speed shipping from one ocean to another. I think I will investigate that area before making any decision on where to settle.

Yeah, that may also be a small-to-middling inland lake... no way to know unless we have other fog-gazers out there... :)

I agree with Roland that it looks like a plains-cow under the fog. It also looks like there is a hint of grassland-green W-NW, and under the forest W-SW, and definitely SW-S-S.

A coastal start with the unit ticks removed makes me think portugal is a strong possibility for our tribe, so seafaring/expansionist.

My worker will move west to reveal the max. number of tiles, and also to get closer to the cow, which will likely be the first tile he develops. Unless my worker move reveals something surprising, my settler will move one NW to settle, to benefit from the cattle early, and also from the possible grasslands to the W-NW. If the worker move does reveal an interesting bonus, I may chose a different location if we are not seafaring. If we are seafaring, then settling any tile other than NW will be most unlikely.

I investigated it in the editor, and now I am 90% sure it is Cattle on plains.
You fog-gazers amaze me. I don't see it, but I have to admit you have been right in the past. If there is a cow to the NW then it would certainly be wise to go W to reveal the maximum number of squares. If a city were founded there it would still be possible to found a city to the south of the "choke" point on the grassland.

Why would ainwood not show the number of units at the start position? That has to be an intentional decision on his part. He has not done it in the past and is therefore trying to tell us something or keep something from us.

Oh my, I can't believe it's that time of the year again and we are discussing new Conquest GOTM...
Well, since that picture was edited, so we can't see how many startup units we have I dare to suggest we are expansionist Civilization and have a scout... :mischief:
Just a wild guess, but something tells me i am correct

Let me guess. I suspect that there is indeed no worker. If Ainwood wants to make fun of us, this could be it.
If this is right and there is no worker, then I believe that we are certainly Maya as many suggested already. It will change everything. If we are Maya with no worker, it might be reasonable to build Javelin Thrower first and send him to hunt for slaves. Yet it is a gamble.

I think, for once, I'm going to follow some of the veteran players' advice and settle in place. Maybe that will make it easier to get to Code of Laws and then Philosophy first- to do the 'Republic slingshot'. I think Maya would be a lot of fun- they were the first civ I played after getting Conquests because of agricultural trait and UU w/enslavement!

Let me guess. I suspect that there is indeed no worker. If Ainwood wants to make fun of us, this could be it.
If this is right and there is no worker, then I believe that we are certainly Maya as many suggested already. It will change everything. If we are Maya with no worker, it might be reasonable to build Javelin Thrower first and send him to hunt for slaves. Yet it is a gamble.

The problem with this teory is that production rate of slave worker is so low that it won't be worth of doing this... Player will be much better to build his own worker rather than spend cycles on building JT and then running around for who knows how many turns trying to capture one... JT has only one chance out of 3 to enslave unit, unless you have bunch of barb hutts around it may take long time to do...

My guesses is the reason the #units ticks are gone is because we are expansionist (and would have 3 ticks) and seafaring (on the coast) and Ainwood didn't want to disclose that Portugal was the Tribe so soon.

I'm thinking about settling in place or SW, starting with a pair of curragh builds, then a scout, researching writing at minimum on the get philosophy gambit (if below emperor, I might try for code of laws then philosophy to get republic as the free tech).

My guesses is the reason the #units ticks are gone is because we are expansionist (and would have 3 ticks) and seafaring (on the coast)

You probably right Denyd, but i somewhat doubt we will play seafaring civ, since we just did it last month.

I'm actually leaning towards non-expansionist.. For the same reason you all think it is epxansionist ;)

And I really hope the theory about being Maya without starting worker is wrong, because that will make for a very interesting start...

Here's the minimap. What do you think! :D

Hehe, it's the first minimap I've seen where you could actually see units ;)

Since we start on the coast, there is an increased chance we are seafaring. I really have no insight in the character of Ainwood as this will be the first game I will be submitting, so I will refrain from speculating why 1 or 2 units have been disbanded.

If we just have a worker, I agree moving it W would be the best option. If we are seafaring, I would like to settle on the coast, and I always want to settle next to a river. That would leave the current and the tile SW to it as the most immediate options, because I think the tile NW does not count as next to a river?

If the plains NW, NW do contain a cow, it's not a gimme that moving towards it, is the most beneficial: the lands south might be sweet, sweet bonusgrasslands :)

And finally, what if the grass in the south is just a minipeninsula; that would mean the partly revealed water tile in the lower left corner of the picture, is not a lake but sea! This would yield additional tiles where you can settle next to a river and on the coast.

And finally, what if the grass in the south is just a minipeninsula; that would mean the partly revealed water tile in the lower left corner of the picture, is not a lake but sea! This would yield additional tiles where you can settle next to a river and on the coast.

I think the chances of this to be a small peninsula (or a lake or a choke point, whatever) depend on our global positioning. That piece of land is not likely to be of great value if we are far at the South.

Yes i think it is very probable that we will be expansionist because there are no tick marks. I think the starting postion is good so i will just settle there

Don't settle until you move your worker... who knows how many cows will open when you do (or may be evil barbarians)

good point, but which way should I move the setter W, SW, S??

Well, the major issue I see is trying to figure out what the Civ is so we can figure out attributes. It wouldn't be worth it to move from the coast if we are seafaring (Portuguese, Byzantine?); on the other hand, if we're agricultural (Mayan), having the river and the cattle would seem to be paramount.

Of course, it's probably far too early to bug ainwood with more questions, like "Which Civ starts out grey with no units?", but in one week maximum this and many other issues will be settled...

...no pun intended. :)

good point, but which way should I move the setter W, SW, S??

roll the dice ;)

West or northwest with the worker... got to check out that cattle(?).

If we are expansionist then we will have a scout AND a worker so we can check out both directions. I would move the scout northwest, and the worker southwest, and then I would decide where to use my scout's second move... probably another move northwest but we'll see.

I think the tile NW does not count as next to a river?

No, NW counts as next to a river too.

-- Roland

If we are expansionist then we will have a scout AND a worker so we can check out both directions. I would move the scout northwest, and the worker southwest, and then I would decide where to use my scout's second move... probably another move northwest but we'll see.

I would rather move the scout SW and the worker NW. That way the worker can start improving the NW tile immediately on the next turn (or move to the cattle if I decide to settle NW). In any case I will want to improve (irrigate and road) the cattle ASAP. The only problem, of course, is that this wastes one of the scout moves...

-- Roland

Well, the major issue I see is trying to figure out what the Civ is so we can figure out attributes. It wouldn't be worth it to move from the coast if we are seafaring (Portuguese, Byzantine?); on the other hand, if we're agricultural (Mayan), having the river and the cattle would seem to be paramount.

Well, I will not move off the coast nor the river, no matter what civ we are. A coast start is always good, and a river start is even better. I see four tiles which are both on the coast and next to the river: The original tile; NW; SW; and SW-SW (and probably SW-SW-SW too). I will definately settle on one of those tiles. I want the cattle NW-NW within the radius of my first town, so that rules out SW-SW (and SW-SW-SW of course). Also, I think the original tile is not a good place to settle, as it will likely put the capitol on the very edge of my civilization. This leaves SW and NW to chose from. I was leaning towards SW before I saw the cattle. Now I'm leaning more towards settling NW, to get the cattle as soon as possible, and to be able to irrigate it quickly (fresh water from the river through the town and on to the cattle), but also to be able to settle a second town on the choke-point SW-S-S, and a third town on the river SW-SW-SW.

-- Roland

I would rather move the scout SW and the worker NW. That way the worker can start improving the NW tile immediately on the next turn (or move to the cattle if I decide to settle NW). In any case I will want to improve (irrigate and road) the cattle ASAP. The only problem, of course, is that this wastes one of the scout moves...

-- Roland

I guess my response would depend on where on the map we are. If we are in the north, I would do as you say to move the scout towards the center of the map. However if we are in the extreme south, then I would want the scout moving north, since thats where all my victims will be.

I was thinking that the new Civs in Conquests seemed to be set in pairs
Portugal-Dutch
Hittites-Sumerian
Inca-Maya
Byzantine- nobody to pair with

and based on the fact that we've played one from the first 2 sets, I'm thinking it might be one from the last 2. Since were on the the coast, I'm changing my guess from Portugal to Byzantines. The reason for removing the unit count ticks, would be to add confusion between the remaining seafaring tribes (Portugal & Byzantine). I somewhat agree with dmanakho in that Ainwood is unlikely to repeat traits in back to back months, yet I'm left with no choices from the new Civs when I do that since all the new ones are either seafaring or agricultural and the Dutch are both.

As for movement, I'm hoping for Portugal, then I'd have a chance to send the scout NW before having to make a settler movement decision.

One thing I've been kind of troubled by is the consistently crappy starting locations the last couple of GOTM & COTM's. I yearn for the bonus grassland, river & cow locations in the middle of a big patch of dirt. These coastal starts seem to emphasize the increased corruption as more cities are farther from the capital than usual.

I would also hope for the small map size this time. Have not played a small map in ages. Always standard.

Regarding the civs: it is either Portugal or Byzantine and we start on an island similar to GOTM31 but not in the center of the map and with a river. And there are no horses, iron, saltpeter, coal, luxuries, food bonuses and it is Emperor difficulty. With and archipelago map and seafaring trait, seems to be OK.

We had the agricultural trait last time as well. Maybe we get to try out one of the other new game features such as a unit with enslavement.
True, but I don't think the map utilized it as much as it did seafaring. More desert would have given us the other bonus of Agriculture.

As for Sumeria, they have the Enkidu Warrior which might make for an interesting Emperor level start with lots of barbs.

I do like the enslave UU thought as that would work pretty well on Emperor level game with lost of barbs, too

If you haven't noticed, I'm thinking another emperor game. Of cource, it could be warlord and he took away our worker to slow us down. ;)

--------------------------------------

My other theory is that we are doing seafaring again on archipelo (sp?) map again all the other seafaring civs. Maybe Byzantines so we can try to rule the waves early to prevent communications between the other civs.

--------------------------------------

My final theory is that he put us on the coast to cross us up. We will be playing one of the orginal civs that we haven't seen in a while. Maybe the color is right and we are looking a India or Zulu.

Most that's noteworthy about the pic has been said. Besides one thing. The cowleg might be an elephants leg? If so Ainwood might want us to toy around with The statue of Zeus, an interesting plot in the right map perhaps?

I like rivers, so i send my worker west to see more of it.

My final theory is that he put us on the coast to cross us up. We will be playing one of the orginal civs that we haven't seen in a while. Maybe the color is right and we are looking a India or Zulu.

I agree, we are not seafaring or one of the new civs. We are an old civ, but we are expansionists, the units (ticks) were removed so we could not tell. my guess is Russia, Zulu, or America. But, the real kicker is we have a no barbarians setting so the expansionist trait's value just plummetted.

I'll move the worker (if we have one) NW, to see if there's anywhere/thing better to settle near. If not, I'll settle in place.

As for the Civ... my money's on the Byzantines.

Neil. :cool:

My money is on the Byzantines. The perfect (historical) civ to have on the bottleneck point between two evenly matched continents. We would be the meat in an AI sandwich.

Can someone provide a link to an article on select a site for building a city. In particular is it wasteful or beneficial to settle on bonus tiles? And does the form of government effect this choice?

@CarnDaWoods: All bonus food is wasted if you settle on it, it will always produce 2 (3 for agricultural). Production isn't wasted, but it seems like it: Below size 7, the city square will always produce atleast 1 shield, no matter the terrain. If you settle on a square that has 1 production, the square will produce 1 at small size. Once you get to size 7+, city square produces 1 shield, in addition to what is under. So if you founded on standard grassland, it would still produce 1, but 2 on bonus grass and plains. Commerce is also added, but I can't remember if it's similiar to production in that the square has a minimum production, but I think it atleast produces some no matter what. Of course the despotism penalty exists in city square as well.

I will not settle without exploring even if we have no starting unit other than a settler. I just won't "settle" for a capital which will grow by just 1 food/turn for the first few turns without first looking for something better. (One thing which might change my mind is if we're Maya - agricultural for 2 food/turn at the start plus industrious to quickly irrigate and clear forests would make the start position look a lot better.)

If we have a scout I'll start with scout NW and then probably west (might change depending what the first step reveals.) If we don't have a scout then I'll start with worker west. If no scout and no worker, then start with settler west. If the first move reveals a good reason to head that way then the settler will follow. If the first move(s) reveal nothing particularly nice to the north/northwest then my settler will head southwest.

I think it is at least important to settle in the ancient era, so we can get things moving. I've been training cow-sniffing, so hopefully I find that cow within those turns.

And since horses and iron will be approximately 20 tiles away from the starting point, I see that as another good excuse to move.:)

No seriously, I don't know what to do until I know what civ we're playing.

Everyone will get their worker. ;) Just don't feed him to that raging barbs. :)

When was the last GOTM without raging barbs? Oh well, I hope they are as "raging" in COTM02, where I hardly noticed them. Good chance really, as barbs in C3C seems quite pathetic compared to PTW.

When was the last GOTM without raging barbs? Oh well, I hope they are as "raging" in COTM02, where I hardly noticed them. Good chance really, as barbs in C3C seems quite pathetic compared to PTW.

Barbs are, apparently, fairly well broken in C3C (in that they show some odd and quite predictable behaviour). As for COTM02 - well, I'm not really surprised most people didn't have trouble with them, given the map.

Neil. :cool:

I hate those stupid barbarians!

Barbs are, apparently, fairly well broken in C3C (in that they show some odd and quite predictable behaviour). As for COTM02 - well, I'm not really surprised most people didn't have trouble with them, given the map.
Neil. :cool:
Raging barbs in conquests just means that there will be stacks of 32 horsemen that wait around for you to upgrade your troops. The challenge may be to stop the AI from destroying all the barb camps, I might end up fighting the AI just to protect my camps before we go to the MA

I'm with SirPleb; 1 food/turn growth is a killer for a good early game start. I think I'll go worker W and then decide what to do with the settler. If we have a scout then scout will start by going NW.

I hope were Mayans, with all those free slaves from those barbs AND the Industrious trtait the land will be cultivated extremely fast

Im very confused on what i should do and i dont really think we can make any good decisions until we have more information

how is it possible to have an intelligent PRE-game discussion if we don't even know the civ? guess, guess, guess. move settler W, E, S, N; worker N etc... why even do this? after a few postings it all is repeated for five days! i check this thread to discuss early game strategy and so many posters conclude with questions about the civ. this month ainwood has been so graceful as to even take away our units, more guessing :confused: . ainwood, give up some of your control issues so that we may have a proper pre-game discussion! you have given us challenging and enjoyable games, but pre-game discussions are irrelevant with such limited information.

Point well made, and point taken.

I was trying to encourage some trait-independent discussions, and have been playing-around for the last few games trying to get the balance right - along the lines of 'if we are agricultural, then staying next to the river is important, otherwise moving to better terrain is a must'. When I used to read the spoilers as a player, it was this that I got the value out of - the why rather than the what. If you know the traits, then the discussions become much more focused, so you have the potential to lose a bit of the "why" (granted that its an arguable point though).

The most value is in getting the starting map out early, and working the discussions from there, and there's always the catering for my somewhat sadistic nature, so I figure that giving the civ with three - four days to go is about right. :) Last couple of games I've been too late.

The civ we are playing this month is the byzantines, so you get to play with dromons. Having dromons on a pangea map would be a bit too mean, so you get to play on an archipelago. :D

Archipelego aye...I think it will be a large one and most islands will be connected as we had our turn at iscolation last month. Byzantines means I will still settler wander a little but will be more than likely hugging the coast. The lands to the south could be the way to go as hystoricaly the Byzantines are centred around a choke point and this seemed to work well for them in the way of Dromon management and a lot of other things.

thank you ainwood. agreed, a gradual release is fun, and encourages imagination and discussion. giving us a couple days to discuss more specific strategies is perfect, because when the save is released we are all too eager to get started. thanks again for the challenging and thoughtful games. :goodjob:

I was expecting dromons last game. I look forward to this one!

Yay i havent used Byzantines yet,and the Dromons seem perfect for a pelago map :)

Byzantines - Scientic & Seafaring - BW & Alphabet

Dromon - 2(2)-1-2-3 - Lethal Sea Bombardment

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Since we are Archepelago then settling on the coast seems wise but I would move north or south to find more food. First worker move W to show most terrain.

I think with the map and UU we should go for the slingshot to MM.

First builds would be Curragh, Curragh, warrior. After that I would try for a grainery if it looks like I can get Pottery from someone.

I am not sure how I would use our UU, though. My first thought was to pump them out and try to keep everyone isolated but I don't think that is practical. Maybe pick a target (or two) early and concentrate on crippling thier expansion.

So you think that moving the settler would be the best choice? I think a sling shot to republic would be better than to map making. any problems with what i have said?

My experiences with the Dromons as the Byzantines is that they stay extremely effective almost completely to the end of the Age of Sail. Since triremes are needed desperately on an archipelago map anyway, there's a massively high chance that not only can you colonize with extreme prejudice, you can PREVENT other civ's colonization efforts as well, especially if you have a good ship cycling going -- keep at least one dromon in reserve and march (sail?) one forward to take on enemy ships... more needed if they get belligerent... and since you're double the power of the enemy ships on the attack keep aggressive; you could be sinking multiple units alongsides! (Being Scientific helps here, as you can not only prevent others from good lands but also not have to rely quite as much on everyone else's research...)

Even in peaceful times, dromons clog shipping lanes right quick. Blockading can be as effective as physical sinking at times.

As for first moves... I'd probably settle-in-spot. I'd get cows in a couple turns anyway, and I would have a worker. On an archipelago map, I wouldn't have to worry overly much about barbarians even if they ARE raging... so the build order for me would probably be curragh, warrior, settler. (And by the time the settler's ready to come out, my cow's already productive...) :)

Does anyone know the feasability of researching Philosophy first on harder difficulty levels? I don't know what difficulty level ainwood has in store for us, but we seem to be on an upward trend at the moment ;).

I hope not. COTM1 was my first Regent game. COTM2 was my first Monarch game.I dont think i can compete any higher. lol

Does anyone know the feasability of researching Philosophy first on harder difficulty levels? I don't know what difficulty level ainwood has in store for us, but we seem to be on an upward trend at the moment ;).
The fact that we are on an archipelago map bodes well for success in the philosophy gambit, because the civs have less AI-AI trading available to them. I have recently been able to get to philosophy first on an archipelago map on Deity (I didn't go via Code of Laws though).

Disclaimer: I am not advocating putting the COTM to Deity level.

I hope not. COTM1 was my first Regent game. COTM2 was my first Monarch game.I dont think i can compete any higher. lol
There was a similar progression at the point I started playing GOTM, in GOTM17. It went Regent, Monarch, Emporer, Deity. Strangely my first GOTM win was on the Deity level :).



The fact that we are on an archipelago map bodes well for success in the philosophy gambit, because the civs have less AI-AI trading available to them. I have recently been able to get to philosophy first on an archipelago map on Deity (I didn't go via Code of Laws though).

Thanks for that Sandman, that's worth bearing in mind. My only experience with [c3c] so far is in GOTM, so I've yet to try all the new stuff on harder levels.

Does anyone know the feasability of researching Philosophy first on harder difficulty levels? I don't know what difficulty level ainwood has in store for us, but we seem to be on an upward trend at the moment ;).

The philosophy gambit can be successful at any difficulty level, even Sid given the correct starting conditions. Since we are the Byzantines and start with Alphabet, we have an excellent shot at getting it first. I think only two things could prevent this: 1) lots and lots of goody huts for the AI, and 2) a few commercial or seafaring AIs starting on the same landmass.

I think the latter would not be a deal-breaker though, unless we are playing Diety or higher. If it is Demigod it might be close, but I will go for it anyway since we start on a river.

Looks like there are 4 sites that are coastal and on the river, the one we start on, Nw, Sw and 2 squares SW. Since we have a river the plains aren’t too much worse than grassland, since irri plains = mined Grassland. If there is a cow, I would be tempted to move nw, so I would move the worker w first, settler NW, then worker N and irrigate and road the cow. First builds are 2 Curraghs, since we are seafaring they will explore the coast quicker than warriors, since it is islands, I might not need more than a couple of warriors. First one will go west for barb suppression and to find how big the island is.

Plan for the worker is more interesting. IF there is a cow, and we move NW, we will be 2fpt, 3spt until it is irrigated, then 3,3. (this is much better than being at (1,3) for the first 10 turns so I will move to get the cow in range of the initial 9 squares).

Once we grow we will be 2,5 with a forest or 3,4 with an irrigated plains. It will be far easier to manage once there is the option to switch between the two (and gives the option of speeding growth by 1 2 or 3 turns, so I will probably irrigate the starting square after roading the cow.

If there is no cow – I will cry.

So you think that moving the settler would be the best choice? I think a sling shot to republic would be better than to map making. any problems with what i have said?

If there is a cow in range then settling on the spot might work. But, if by moving a couple squares I can get additional food resources, I would probably do it without hesitation.

As for republic, I find myself staying in monarch when trying to support a large military. Early on I lose traction with republic as small cities don't provide much support and the 2gpt support eats up your income pretty fast.

I think that getting to MM quickly and build lots of Dromons for expansion, civ containment and access to Great Lighthouse would best suit a seafaring/archapelago game. Holding on to writing and MM as long as possible would slow the other civs and allow us to expand without competition longer. Remember the AI doesn't use Corraghs.

Plan for the worker is more interesting. IF there is a cow, and we move NW, we will be 2fpt, 3spt until it is irrigated, then 3,3. (this is much better than being at (1,3) for the first 10 turns so I will move to get the cow in range of the initial 9 squares).

If there is no cow – I will cry.
just wanted to check your math. iirc, plain cattle = 2f, 2s in despotism. you will get it to 3f, 2s by irrigating it. still, moving towards a bonus will gain you an advantage rather than settling on the spot and waiting 5T till a plain is irrigated then 5 more till the bonus gets within the border.

early growth will be stunted if we stay put and I always like more land tiles than ocean tiles for my palace city. to me, nw seems to be the most logic starting move, as we'll stay on the coast to get dingies out, be located on a river, and, at the very least, we'll be able to get some grassland tiles in our border (i spy green turf NW of us).

Well, my gender-based guess was right...sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but sometimes it pays to be an Orthodox (Jewish) Freudian :)

The tile 2 SW looks nice--access to fresh water so we can grow to 12; looks like 2 grasslands at least; choke point--who knows, maybe even a deer in a forest nearby. 'Course, I'll send the worker W first.

re: governments--Feudalism gives nice unit support, but I hate two revolutions--do people think it's worth stay despotic through the AA and researching Feudalism before Monarchy and Republic?

As mentioned earlier by Roland Ehnström, the tile NW-NW appears to be a cow on plains. I've also reviewed it with the editor and I'm 99% sure we have a cow.

But...

Can it be irrigated? It appears to be 2 tiles from the river so the answer would be no without a 2nd water source we don't see.

A city one tile NW of the starting location would put the cattle in the inital 9 tiles and also insure that it can be irrigated starting on turn 3. The city would act as an irrigated tile and the worker could reach the cattle in 2 moves and begin to irrigate.

The tile S-SW which appears to be a neck is a plains tile. (per editor) and could have either coast or inland waters on the west side. The tile S of the neck tile is grassland.


StanNP

Exploration is the key for the success in this game..
We need to explore all islands with Dromons... also if islands are connected with sea squares (that galleys can use) I would try to position Dromons so they prevent AI's galleys moving through those connection tiles. (kind of like we do on the land battlenecks). Doing that i will prevent AI contact each other and I will become a perfect middle man, selling and trading left and right...
It should make quite easy to get phylosophy before anyone else.

Plan for the worker is more interesting. IF there is a cow, and we move NW, we will be 2fpt, 3spt until it is irrigated, then 3,3. (this is much better than being at (1,3) for the first 10 turns so I will move to get the cow in range of the initial 9 squares).

Once we grow we will be 2,5 with a forest or 3,4 with an irrigated plains. It will be far easier to manage once there is the option to switch between the two (and gives the option of speeding growth by 1 2 or 3 turns, so I will probably irrigate the starting square after roading the cow.

If there is no cow – I will cry.

If there is a cow ..... then irrigating the cow and then the start tile (assuming we move the settler NW) and mm the use of the forest tile, we' will grow on turns 10 and 18 (if my calcs are correct) and have 63 shields to spend. For me that's probably curragh, curragh, settler, alhtough I hate getting the first settler before an escort unit. The alternative is to kick-out a warrior and waste 8 sheilds. I tried a couple of ways to see if curragh, warrior, warrior, settler (65 shields) could fit without delaying a turn on expansion, but couldn't seem to make that work.

If there isn't a cow, I will also cry ..... :sad:

ok this is my first GOTM so i am taking any advice i can get. i like the idea of settling one sguare SW but i also think one sguare NW might be a good idea because i see the beginnings of a forest and there is usally grassland and hills by forest :D . there seems to be a small desert :( so i really dont know . any ideas?

"possum" The problem with settling NW is the tile of desert which could really effect your population growth. I am considering staying where i am. My building que will prob be curragh, curragh, settler. For technology i will go for Republic slingshot or Map Making Slingshot

If there isn't a cow, I will also cry ..... :sad:

If there isnt a cow im sure everyone will cry :sad:

Trust me, there is a cow, It's just located on another island... :rolleyes:

That one of the twisted evil ideas Ainwood usually comes up with when setting up a map for GOTM.

If the game is diety, how will you folks set your science slider?

I would think the same as if it was Monarch. Right?

SniperDevil,

In Monarch and below, the first 2 citizens in a city are born content and the rest are born unhappy. In Emperor and up, only the first is born content and the rest unhappy.

You can use units to quell unrest--although I do not think this applies to boats--but the difference between Monarch and the levels above it means using the slider differently as well as changing the importance of lux. and marketplaces.

If the game is diety, how will you folks set your science slider?To have a focused discussion, this is a DemiGod game. :)

I've never played demigod.....

Demigod! Is that the one or two above Emperor? I've never played above Emperor. This is going to be tough.

Demigod! Is that the one or two above Emperor? I've never played above Emperor. This is going to be tough.

It's one above Emperor (it goes Emp->Demi->Deity->Sid). Now I'm scared.

BTW what are the AI bonuses/advantages at DemiGod?

Neil. :cool:

Anyone know the AI build/research advantage for demigod? How many units do they start out with?

ainwood, could you please tell us what bonuses Conquest-level players will receive?

A truly evil emperor game in GOTM33, and now demigod with a crappy start for COTM3. The man is mean. There has got to be something really nice, just out of sight...

Monarchy gets bonus 2 defensive, 1 offensive units and AI build 10% fatser
Emperor gets bonus 4 def, 2 off units and an extra worker plus build 20% faster
Demigod gets bonus 6 def, 3 off units and 2 workers and a settler extra plus builds 30% fatser
Deity gets bonus 8 def, 4 off units and 2 workers and a settler extra plus builds 40% faster

The extra settler and workers seem to me to be the biggest factor as they lead to an almost doubling of the AI initial expansion rate. For this reason, I consider demigod to be a lot closer to deity than it is to emperor, and so this will be a tough game. Also tech bonus works in reverse, as in reciprocal, rather than giving the AI a speed bonus, so it costs the human 11% more on monarchy, 25%, 41%, 66% more on the other levels respectively.

Having said all that, it is still possible to get to philosophy first via a min writing gambit, but I persoanlly probaly won't risk going for Code of Laws before philosophy.

They don't build 30% faster, they get a 30% discount. That means they only need 14 food to grow and settlers cost 21 shields.

Also, the AI gets it first bonus settler on emperor, and the second on diety (IIRC). As such the jump from monarch to emperor is a lot larger then emperor to demigod, atleast in my experience.

I think i'll try to go for a space-ship win this time, as the traits seems to mix pretty good. Seafaring for lots of early contacts and tech trading should help keep up in techpace through the ancient era, and then scientific will help keep up/speed up throughout the rest of the game.

Inital research will either be pottery at max or 50 turn on writing, followed by philosophy gamble to get either map making or literature. I'll probably on research the writing part of the techtree and trade for the rest. Early libraries and republic is highest priority, but harbors and galleys might be more important depending on the map.

If there isnt a cow im sure everyone will cry :sad:

no, ainwood wouldn't................he'd die laughing!!

They don't build 30% faster, they get a 30% discount. That means they only need 14 food to grow and settlers cost 21 shields.
Semantics, but strictly speaking, you are correct!
Also, the AI gets it first bonus settler on emperor, and the second on diety (IIRC). As such the jump from monarch to emperor is a lot larger then emperor to demigod, atleast in my experience.

I beg to differ on this point. The following are screenshots straight out of the Conquests rules editor. The first three from the difficulty levels screen:
Emperor
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SMempdl.jpg
Demigod
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SMDemdl.jpg
Deity
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SMDdl.jpg
And from the Units screen
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SMunits.jpg
And so I stand by my above assertion that emperor level gets a bonus worker, not a bonus settler. That is not to say that emperor level is not a significant jump over monarchy - the extra worker for the AI and reduction to only one happy citizen for the human per city does make it much harder than monarchy.

To me, the extra settler, that starts at demigod, makes a bigger difference though. However, I accept that this is clearly a matter of personal experience and playing style etc, so some may experience it differently.

Demigod! Is that the one or two above Emperor? I've never played above Emperor. This is going to be tough.

Looking on the bright side Byzantine on archipelago is a good 'move-up' civ. At the very least you can have fun with your Dromons while losing :D .

@ainwood: any chance of having the game released on Friday July 30th?

Anyone know the AI build/research advantage for demigod? How many units do they start out with?

ainwood, could you please tell us what bonuses Conquest-level players will receive?
They will get an extra settler and worker pair (can't get fairer than that ;))

Remember that the map will reduce the AI research, especially as there is no contact trading until the middle ages. The AI is also pretty hopeless at over-seas invasions, so I think that for those who haven't played demigod before, the best advice is just don't be intimidated! :)

@ainwood: any chance of having the game released on Friday July 30th?Afraid not! :D I've got game release pages to put together, a bit more playtesting and some 'real life' stuff. It will be there for you when you get up on sunday morning, by my judgement. :)

Conquest bonus looks excellent--can't wait till I get home from work Sunday.

I havent even played Emperor before!! Looks like another COTM loss for me :(

Don't worry SniperDevil...
As Ainwood says AIs are pretty hopless in overseas invasions..
Plus in C3C they can not trade contacts until Printing Press is discovered...
So as I mentioned before you will become a perfect middle man with your fire-spitting dromons...
I do expect that human player should manage early tech lead in this game, even on demigod level, and I do hope Ainwood didn't place any other seafaring civ on this map.

Oh, and what's the AI's free unit support level at Demi?
The Conquest bonuses are nice - but I think I'll pass, again. I only did badly at COTM33 because it's a brute of a map that even better players had difficulty with.

Neil. :cool:

The conquest bonus looks fantastic. How do you qualify for that again?

Qualification for Conquest-class: Never place in the upper half of any GOTM or COTM

check out this link for Ision's review of Byz. good reading for all :) -> http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=86993

btw, a demigod AI is NOT hopeless for amphibious landing. In the Gaunlet Revisited (SG Bugs 2.1), Portugal landed 7 cav, 5 crusaders, and 2 rifles using 10 galleons. Not effiecient but definitely too much for the defenders of our meager islands (we only had MDI and Pikes at the time). We lost 3 cities due to this. You definitely need to check your rear at DG if you fall behind in tech's.

Hmm..I'm not sure what my strat is going to be here. It really depends on if there is an other seafaring civ in it. If there is then the likelyhood of being able to pull off the Col/Republic trick is low. If there isn't then I will change to republic real early and use the dromons to trip my golden age.

If there is a seafaring civ then I will go for philosophy after writing and pick one of poly/currency or construction, which ever will take me out of the AA quickest. Hopefully I will get fuedalism as my free tech or be able to trade for it and will become a feudal overlord for the first time. Fuedalisms unit support may be useful in keeping me solvent as I intend to build a huge amount of dromons or rather a huge amount of curraghs and upgrade to dromons. I will try to avoid map making for as long as possible.

Which ever government I go for I intend to switch off research after chivalry and pound coastlines and cities with dromons. I may switch off after fuedalism depending on the nature of the 'pelago. If there are no big continent sized islands I may forego the option to build knights as the dromons should provide the mobility to move my units around.

I'm thinking of settling on the spot, and first build two ships, a settler and then start a wonder. My second city, somewhere next to the cow (hopefully) could then be turned into a settler factory. Any ideas on that ?

I haven't played a single game in almost a year, due to lack of time, but I'm thinking of restarting by just submitting QSC's.

I'm thinking of settling on the spot, and first build two ships, a settler and then start a wonder..

Wonder??? At Demigod Level???? That would be certainly a mistake..
plus i am not sure if you can build any wonders so early in game period.

Plus, how about building few military units before.... remember those raging barbarians??

check out this link for Ision's review of Byz. good reading for all :) -> http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=86993

btw, a demigod AI is NOT hopeless for amphibious landing. In the Gaunlet Revisited (SG Bugs 2.1), Portugal landed 7 cav, 5 crusaders, and 2 rifles using 10 galleons. Not effiecient but definitely too much for the defenders of our meager islands (we only had MDI and Pikes at the time). We lost 3 cities due to this. You definitely need to check your rear at DG if you fall behind in tech's.
:eek: Might have to head off to read the thread!

I do hope Ainwood didn't place any other seafaring civ on this map.What would be the fun in that? :mischief:

You need some curragh fodder for your dromons, don't you?

What would be the fun in that? :mischief:

You need some curragh fodder for your dromons, don't you?

Great, next he'll be telling us he's persuaded the AI to actually USE the Curraghs they don't build!

Neil. :cool:

What would be the fun in that? :mischief:

You need some curragh fodder for your dromons, don't you?

Actually, knowing you and past experiences, i had zero hopes, just wanted to cheer up the rest of the folks :rolleyes:

Ision's review is great--really gets you excited about this civ. Definately a must-read.

Will their be Sid level GOTMs? Since I have joined this forum, I have played COTM1, COTM2, and then GOTM33, with COTM3 next up. For a steady upward progression in difficulty. Since I came here as a player making a successful transition from Regent to Monarch (I think I was 2-0 on Monarch after a lot of games at Regent), it is hard to believe I won at Emperor and now have confidence in my ability to win at Demigod, especially since the Byzantines are so well suited to our map.

Will their be Sid level GOTMs? Since I have joined this forum, I have played COTM1, COTM2, and then GOTM33, with COTM3 next up. For a steady upward progression in difficulty. Since I came here as a player making a successful transition from Regent to Monarch (I think I was 2-0 on Monarch after a lot of games at Regent), it is hard to believe I won at Emperor and now have confidence in my ability to win at Demigod, especially since the Byzantines are so well suited to our map.
Well, I'm not a Sid player, so playtesting at that level might be a bit difficult.

From the advise I have read from the very best players, I think that having a sid level game would be a bit of an ask, so I don't think we will.

As a flavour of what a Sid level game is like, try looking in the hall of fame forum. SirPleb (among others) wrote a very good write-up of playing sid, and it looked like it was very difficult, and very drawn-out. For example, IIRC he mentions attacking cities with >50 infantry defending (bit foggy on that), so it might impose a time constraint on those that can beat that level as well.

Yes, the difficulty has been streadily increasing. It may have been a bit too steep for some (most likely we'll drop back to monarch for Conquest 04), but the idea is to try and get players to realise that they can play on higher levels and win If you look at the current emperor game, the majority of people won, and a large proportion of those that didn't win at least didn't get smoked too badly (cultural and space race defeats rather than conquest defeats). To me, when I lost my first GOTM at deity (from a rubbish starting location), I think I lost by space race. Just getting through to the modern age was something that I took a lot of confidence from, and looking back at the game I was actually quite dominant - a greater reliance on using artillery and I could possibly have won it. I hope people playing 'above their weight' will get the same confidence boost. :)

Will their be Sid level GOTMs?
@bed_head7, I hope you're going to play this GOTM as Predator class if you're that confident ;).


@ainwood, you've told us what the Conquest class "Bonuses" are, maybe you could give us a hint about the Predator class "Obstacles"? :mischief:

You could always set big human advantage game for SID. Playing as the Mayans with lots of nice terrain and setting up the AI in bad starting locations or on solo island or give the human Open player an extra starting location (ala the Mongols game).

Just wondering. I am not anxious to try Sid yet, but it seems like it might be a possibility at some point. I have read SirPleb's thread, along with Moonsinger's thread and Arathorn's "I came, I SAW..." I thought we might make it there eventually, but I forgot to consider time constraints. But I think Sid might be somewhere down the road for me, even if not part of the GOTM. It is my goal to at least play a decent Sid game, if I can't win one, before the fourth installment comes out. Which should give me some time.

Qualification for Conquest-class: Never place in the upper half of any GOTM or COTM
I guess I had better play open then, just in case Ainwood checks these things.

Seriously, though it is nice to get games at a variety of levels. I have found that playing harder levels only enhances the addictive elements of the game. Also a 'pelago map with a sea faring civ really is the softest intro when stepping up a level. Tech brokering between isolated AI is definitely the way to stay in this game.

Ainwood - you have ruled out Sid (I suspect fortunately), but what about deity? Is Deity going to be amongst the chosen levels for the COTM at some stage?

Sandman2003: We've had a couple of Deity games before, so I'd expect some in the future. Usually you'll get a winnable setup (though there were a couple of exceptions), so it's fun to try those. If you can manage to keep up with the tech race (via trading), you've got a chance to win it.

As denyd said, we will have a deity game sooner or later. :)

:) :) :) O wait thats a bad thing :(

i have seen a lot of post about what to research and i personally think that republic sling shot is the way to go. as to where to settle i am going to stay where i m . i will biuld curragh, warrior(to explore a little with) then settler. give me any opinion or ideas. i m open to all

HELP ME i usually play regent warlord if i feel daring because i just got the game. I R Possom is now I R SCREWWED

IR Possum: Try 2 curraghs: 1 going north & 1 going south then a warrior for land scouting. Curraghs move 2 per turn which is double warrior speed. That's my probable build path. If I move the settler it'll be based on what the worker finds after she moves (probably west).

For lots of good ideas:

Check out this link (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=81351)

How do you experts plan on researching. Science at minimum to max gold or higher to speed the path to philosophy?

Curraghs move three if you are a sea faring civ (and we is).

Originaly posted by Ainwood:
I think that having a sid level game would be a bit of an ask, so I don't think we will.
I do not believe that I will ever be able to win on SID. However, I want to try to argue with the statement above and to support the idea of Sid level. I believe that the main idea behind GOTM is not wining, but competing with other players. So what is the problem with most people loosing the game? It could be fun to compete in loosing the game with highest score.

I do not believe that I will ever be able to win on SID. However, I want to try to argue with the statement above and to support the idea of Sid level. I believe that the main idea behind GOTM is not wining, but competing with other players. So what is the problem with most people loosing the game? It could be fun to compete in loosing the game with highest score.
The main problem (I really should wait and hope that Aeson happens past at this), is that I believethat the rng starts having quite an effect. The game becomes a lot mroe about luck than skill. Never tried it myself, and so can't confirm. Hopefully someone who has played it can confirm or mock this.

Maybe one day we might (if there is a lot of support), but not in the near future anyway.

How do you experts plan on researching. Science at minimum to max gold or higher to speed the path to philosophy?
I don't think that I am an 'expert', but I will probably go min science on writing, then max affordable on philosophy. At the begiining, anything other than min on a tier two tech doesn't seem to shave much time off the completion date, and that gold is very useful for trading, prior to trading writing (assuming you actually get to writing first).

A useful trick is to go to the F4 screen every turn once you have writing, and see what the best deal the other civs will give you for it is. When it starts dropping from the previous turn, and the civ can actually afford more, that is a clue that the civ in question has started their research on writing. At this point you will definitely have wanted to have started philosophy, and you will need to be prepared to sell writing soon in order to maximise benefit from trading it around. If you wait, and the AI research it, they will trade it amongst whoever thay know quickly, and you will lose some of your opportunity.

I believe that the rng starts having quite an effect.

rng = Random Number Generator. e.g. your success at combat. Makes sense that luck plays a bigger role when the margin of error is so small.

StanNP

RNG is definitely a big deal in GOTM.

Last COTM I lost 7 knights attacking from a mountain against 3 reg pikes and I totally lost momentum after that. But I recovered and could continue to push on after that hiccup and finally won the game.

It has been other games where my mere horsemen been invincible and just mowed over the opponents, spears, pikes and sometimes even muskets!

It's just the draw of the luck and sometimes you have to expect to lose some units. The main thing to not ALWAYS lose, is to use the terrain to the fullest. The great domination/conquest winners got the answer in having a big enough army to counter the losses.

I'm still trying to learn how to balance that :)

Originally Posted by Tarkeel
They don't build 30% faster, they get a 30% discount. That means they only need 14 food to grow and settlers cost 21 shields.

Semantics, but strictly speaking, you are correct!
Actually, it's not just semantics. Percentages don't scale linearly. The best way to illustrate this, is to use 50%. A 50% reduction in cost means that it will be produced twice as fast (if you don't take overproduction into account), while 50% increase in production would only complete it 50% faster.

As for free bonuses, my bad :) I've never actually bothered to check

i personally think that republic sling shot is the way to go.

On lower difficulty, yes. But since we're playing Demigod, you're only bet to be first to Philosophy is to go straight to Philosophy (researching flat-out, 100% if possible) from Writing (researched at 10%). Then you won't be able to choose Republic as your free tech of course, because you are missing Code of Laws.

To keep my trade monopoly a little longer (AI never ever build curraghs), I will probably not choose Map Making as the free tech. As we are scientific, I may go for Literature, to get those cheap Libraries (so I don't need to spend 20-30 turns building Temples for cultural expansion). Then I'll trade Writing, Philosophy and Literature to each of the AI (who still have no contact with each other, because unlike me they have not sent any curraghs out), and hopefully get most of the other Ancient techs, along with a good amount of gold I hope.

-- Roland

I don't think Sid games are much use in a comparative/competitive sense. The game would either be a very contrived, formulated one, with almost all the "Sid" taken out of it, or one decided by the RNG and whether one of your neighbors decides to finish you off at their whim in the Ancient Era or early Middle Ages.

I just played a test map, standard size as the Portugese on emperor. The republic sling worked out fine even though 4 of the other civs shared the same starting land mass. For the record: I didn't get any techs from huts. Even if there are other seafaring civs, they won't build curraghs unless these are upgarded to having an attack strength of at least 1.
Seafaring on 'pelago map with a river start? I'll try the sling for sure :cool:

As for scouting: I'll "waste" two turns going W with my worker on the first turn. If there's a food bonus there and maybe grasslands, I'll probably move inland; even with seafaring trait.

I dunno about that. I think u may be better off starting off on the coast so that you can send out curraghs earlier in the game and contact other civs. Just my opinion.

As for scouting: I'll "waste" two turns going W with my worker on the first turn. If there's a food bonus there and maybe grasslands, I'll probably move inland; even with seafaring trait.

Well, as stated before, I'd stay on the coast and take my chances with forests/cow. Curraghs and warriors thankfully do not take population points to build, and at least in the case of curraghs you can contact other civs... and maybe even with the warrior too...

As well, with this being an archipelago map, there will not be an opportunity for some of the AIs to grow exponentially in the beginning. Everyone will be limited to the land they stand on, even if there's a massively huge chunk of land across the channel from them, at least until Mapmaking. A slow growth start on this map will definitely not hurt as much as a slow growth on a pangaea. And be that as it may, contacting everyone else might be more paramount than ekeing out those extra seven squares of territory at least in the AA-MA eras.

Of course, leave it to Ainwood to put us on an island with two or three civ's on it to begin with though... :rolleyes:

To keep my trade monopoly a little longer (AI never ever build curraghs), I will probably not choose Map Making as the free tech. As we are scientific, I may go for Literature, to get those cheap Libraries (so I don't need to spend 20-30 turns building Temples for cultural expansion). Then I'll trade Writing, Philosophy and Literature to each of the AI (who still have no contact with each other, because unlike me they have not sent any curraghs out), and hopefully get most of the other Ancient techs, along with a good amount of gold I hope.
I think map making is important if we have limited land available and to get Great Library (edit: I mean Great Lighthouse. :blush: ). Plus the ability to expand to unpopulated islands earlier. (You know that's where the resources are going to be located :). ) The only downside is we have to trade for pottery in order to get to MM quickly.


Even if there are other seafaring civs, they won't build curraghs unless these are upgarded to having an attack strength of at least 1.
I have seen this comment before. I don't understand as I have used Curraghs to attack barbs galleys in the past. (Sort of a survival tactic - I find I get a better survival rate when I attack first.)

Curragh = 1/1/2

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a general note:

I did a quick test game this morning. A couple of things I noticed:

1) On 70% land some of the civs on adjacent island had contact. So unless we are 80% water or the map design puts sea between islands, there is going to be some contacts.

2) I was able to trade for Pottery, Masonry, CB, Myst, Wheel, etc. for Alphabet, etc.

i am ussually not a big trader until after the republic slingshot but is that going to hurt on this higher difficulty level

I’d like to hear opinions on whether to try to build The Great Lighthouse or not. On one hand at the demigod level, AI could be simply faster and even if we will manage to build it, it could be unnecessary waste of resources.
On another hand dromons will fly with lighthouse... it is soooo appealing.... ;-}

I’d like to hear opinions on whether to try to build The Great Lighthouse or not. On one hand at the demigod level, AI could be simply faster and even if we will manage to build it, it could be unnecessary waste of resources.
On another hand dromons will fly with lighthouse... it is soooo appealing.... ;-}

I would say that if domination is the goal, that a Lighthouse would definitely take you a long way to accomplishing that goal. Dromons that move five squares per turn would definitely make every other Civ shake in their boots until they figured out Magnetism at least (and possibly Ironclads.)

However, it'd take a lot of resources to put together the Lighthouse, enough dromons, and as well enough military units to make that work. As it is, the Dromons will already be faster than most enemy ships that will be encountered, be they curraghs or galleys. And two hundred shields may go a long way somewhere else, including... almost seven dromons, if my math is correct :)

Remember as good as the Dromon may be, it still can not conquer a city.

What I think they'll be best for is keeping the AI on their starting island and colonizing the uninhabited islands and shelling AI coastal roads.

May be it make sense to capture lighthouse as soon as it built? Look on F7, figure out who is likely to build it and send a fleet there?
This way we could save 7 dromons, but still get a lighthouse.
I just couldn't give up the idea of flying dromons, I certainly would build lighthouse on monarch or regent.

Remember as good as the Dromon may be, it still can not conquer a city.

Dromons are very mobile artillery, they cannot conquer a city, but they can prepare a city to be conquered.

Dromons are very mobile artillery, they cannot conquer a city, but they can prepare a city to be conquered.

To some extent. I remember trying this a few times previously... if I remember correctly, not being near my Civ game (and with others to correct me if needed), the bombard on a dromon is 2. This is half the strength of a catapult. Granted, it'd be nice to shell a city as well as land troops next to it, but the point I'm trying to make is the fact that if your dromon does actually damage on a bombard, you're rather lucky. Even on a spearman. You'd have to have them in rather large numbers in order to get any efficiency out of bombarding... and at that point you're better off using those dromons to either ferry troops/settlers or erect blockades.

if I remember correctly, not being near my Civ game (and with others to correct me if needed), the bombard on a dromon is 2. This is half the strength of a catapult.

You are correct. And I agree with you when you talk about one dromon. However, even so, two dromons seem to be more efficient than one catapult (they roll a dice twice and therefore with luck can do more damage). Catapult is inefficient since it cannot do anything else, you do not want to build an army of catapults earlier in the game. But you will build an army of dromons for a number of reasons other than bombardment ability. When you have an army of dromons the output of their bombardment can be even somewhat predictable.
Though they are particularly good at pillaging.

This is half the strength of a catapult.
I just checked parameters of dromons and catapultes. Dromons have firing rate 2, while catapults - 1.
Do not ask me what firing rate is. Does anyone know?

I think it means they fire two shots per bombardment, so they have two opportunities to knock a hit point off an opponent. If they're lucky they can knock two off in one turn.

I think it means they fire two shots per bombardment, so they have two opportunities to knock a hit point off an opponent. If they're lucky they can knock two off in one turn.

Thank you. I just found the same information in Valant2's review on combat.
In this case, even one dromon is better than one catapult at bombardment!

Does a Dromon have lethal land or sea bombardment?

Does a Dromon have lethal land or sea bombardment?

I never killed anyone using dromons, but I have no idea if it can produce collateral damage in theory. When I played C3C for a first time, it was quite a surprise to see a unit death from air bombardment. My first thought was that it is some kind of a bug.

I used the Dromon in the Conquests intro scenario and it certainly had lethal bombardment then. It was very effective for troops in the open, but not so great against cities.

In that case 4 Dromons carrying 8 spearmen could take a whole bunch of coastal cities. Land 2 spears, bombard the city, until all units dead and move the spearmen in. Move the ships and repeat. Have another dromon for spearmen shuttle duty and you could take every coastal city on the map.

I know for a fact that it has lethal sea bombardment, as I played a practice game with them and had lots of fun picking off enemy galleys with streams of fire. I've redlined ground troops with them, but never killed any. I'm pretty sure their lethal bombardment is restricted to the open sea.

Dont want to spoil your discussion, but the editor say this:

I know for a fact that it has lethal sea bombardment, as I played a practice game with them and had lots of fun picking off enemy galleys with streams of fire. I've redlined ground troops with them, but never killed any. I'm pretty sure their lethal bombardment is restricted to the open sea.
I really ought to check my memory cells, too late all gone. Yes as others pointed out its lethal sea bombardment.

The only thing I can say is, don't overbuild them.

smackster

i think the dromon are overrated. i play a map with them and they suck when i come to bombarding city. i will biuld a few but just enough to keep AI on there respactive island.

i think the dromon are overrated. i play a map with them and they suck when i come to bombarding city. i will biuld a few but just enough to keep AI on there respactive island.
I agree about not going crazy for them. I played a practice game and never used them very much offensively. They did help soften up a few remote AI cities, but other than that pretty much sat idly by while ground troops did most of the fighting. They were useful defensively however; bombarding attacking AI units before they got adjacent to my cities usually made the AIs units turn around and head home. It was particularily useful when the AI had to move through four or five coastal tiles to get adjacent to a city. 2 or 3 Dormons could often turn back 10 or more attacking units before they even got adjacent to my lone defender.

Another random thought about what a Sid-level game might be like: just how hard would Predator class be?!

Neil. :cool:

research: min. writing, max. philosophy, with an early shot at maps.

building multiple curraghs for exploration (seafaring increases their movement to 3).

trade writing and philosophy (or even better just gold) for all available techs; retaining my (hopefully) maps monopoly. this will increase offensive capabilities.

then, build fleets of dromon filled with archers and spears, or swordsmen. another reason to have maps will be harbors, possibly needed to bring in distant resources like iron.

dromons will be very effective EARLY vs. spears. the AI usually defends most cities with two spears (easily red-lined with 5-7 dromos); maybe one more spearman at demi-god is my guess (use the editor if you want); investigate cities first. i will utilize dromons to help capture coastal cities and contain nearby civs from expanding by sinking their galleys. demanding techs for peace. one draw back is this could lead to a golden age while still in despotism. try bombarding AI galleys, but don't destroy them; the AI will pull back their galleys without triggering our GA.

if possible i will try to sneak in the great lighthouse.

another concern is that, like the dutch game, we are isolated while the other civs have more immediate contacts, or that we have a rival on our land mass. crossing sea and ocean tiles will slow our attack slighty, hopefully the rng is kind to us all. :) .

basically, i see dromons as a temendous advantage. better at bombarding than catapults (others have posted about the importance of artillery at higher levels) they also move faster AND they transport units. i believe it will be important to slow tech sharing to exploit this advantage for as long as possible (delay the emergence of pikemen). all this without neglecting control of our own landmass! no prob :crazyeye: .

I think map making is important if we have limited land available and to get Great Library (edit: I mean Great Lighthouse. :blush: )

Yeah, well, I never ever build wonders in the Ancient Times. To me it feels like it's not worth the effort and risk to spend a huge amount of shields early in the game for a possible advantage, when the chances are high (especially on Demigod) that the AI will complete the wonder before I do. Perhaps I am wrong about this, it would nice to hear a word on wonders from one of the top players.

-- Roland

I just played another test game, this time on demigod with the Byz. No seafaring AIs, and the AI didn't invent Maps until the same turn that I got Philosophy. The sling worked neatly, establishing a Republic in 1125 BC with 7 cities. The start was a good one, but not fantastic (2 wheats on plains and a river start).

I think I'll have to F10 and see who our opponents are before I decide what do. However: Writing on max is definitely feasible with a river start so I may try that and the republic sling shot provided there are no other seafarers. That said, no seafarers were in the last game, so I think we may have them all this time ;) Depends on what my nomads come up with of course :cool:

Yeah, well, I never ever build wonders in the Ancient Times. To me it feels like it's not worth the effort and risk to spend a huge amount of shields early in the game for a possible advantage, when the chances are high (especially on Demigod) that the AI will complete the wonder before I do. Perhaps I am wrong about this, it would nice to hear a word on wonders from one of the top players.

-- Roland

Your point is well taken. I pretty much stopped building them as well. I do think having it with the it's pre-astronomy sea tile benefits might be worth the risk. We would have to have a good start and control what techs we trade away, though.

My lack of experience on emperor and above difficulty would probably prevent me from even trying. I don't have much confidence I could beat the AI going for a republic slingshot. So I will have to settle for Lit or something that gets me closer to monarchy unless were on a really small island.

I have play about 5 quick starts with Byz on arch/deity. If there are civs that get alphabet then I don't get any good early tech trades. On one occasion someone beat me to writing. (Goodie hud, probably.)

in my emperor games, i often take code of laws as my free tech. of the techs available it is valuable, and if traded right i can get alot for it. i try not to give any civs with contacts to each other both philosophy and code of laws; i try to only trade one or the other.

considering that map making is a tech priority for the AI i probably won't grab it for free, contrary to what i said above, the AI will have it soon after anyway and i will trade for it then.

if properly pre-built with a palace i think the great lighthouse is possible to build. is the advantage worth the resources (i think this depends on how close other civs are or if we have any luxuries and resources that must be connected through sea squares)? maybe attempting the great library, so we can gather gold and let the AI do our research, extending the time before pikemen, or build the army and get busy conquering? i think i'll build my army, unless other land lies across many ocean and sea tiles.

as for early moves: worker goes NW, the settler will definately remain on the coast, so i'd rather see more of the coastline than what is further inland. a couple curraghs will start exploring, a warrior or two next, and with no pottery a settler soon after.

for the more experienced players, how important will it be to have a granary? is it a mistake to try for philosophy, hoping for an early pottery trade? assuming we are isolated, planting down cities fast will still be important to aid research and unit construction, but how easy will it be to trade if the AI always has a lead with every tech?

I tried a test with the Byz on a standard size arch map, raging barbs and demigod difficulty. my strat was to research writing at 10%, philosophy at max (this ended up at 80-90% due to the need for luxuries. I traded for two and only two techs, alphabet for masonry, masonry for pottery. I took literature with my free tech.

My seocnd city had built curragh, warrior, then started prebuild for Great Library (Colossus, which had to be switched to palace, thus the need for masonry, because the Colossus was completed by another civ while I was researching writing.) I did manage to build the GL, I had 4 contacts and got all the AA techs except republic (plus then Feudalism for free)

there were 4 big negatives to this strat:

1) my expansion was crippled with the second city on prebuild duty and I only managed to prevent the AI who shared my landmass from steamrolling over me by the use of a 6 tile choke point, this required 2 cities and four units in between those cities because the AI ignored my borders and would declare war if I tried to boot them. When I finished the GL, galleys had started to wander around so trades / contacts were developing and soon foreign cities would pop up on those areas of land I had not yet settled.

2) i was lucky to get those four contacts because I could only afford to build three curraghs as a result of second city on prebuild duty, i had to focus more on settlers and land units for MP and to fight the raging barbs who were constantly harassing workers and any empty city. those three curraghs were destroyed by barbarian galleys and never replaced.

3) barbarians were difficulty to manage even if they are inept, due to my lack of early expansion numerouis camps sprang up. I had insufficient units on this difficulty to adequately supress them, mostly my units were occupied with MP duty, choke point patrol, settler escorts. Barbarians constantly harassed any workers or cities left unguarded. Losses against babrs were high due to low combat bonus against them. The entire point of the strat was to amass a large amount of gold and keep up in tech. I had accumulated 925 gold with 10 turns left until GL, only to see a horse barb SoD roam through my territory and as units were scrambling to guard workers / settlers and especially Adrianople which was building ther GL, one city was left especially weak and I lost 2 units, 2 population, and nearly 700 gold to the barbarians.

4) Three contacts one by one demanded I give them literature as tribute which I did not want to do because of the possibility of the Wonder Cascade causing me to lose the GL, so I ended up at war with them, including the one I shared my land mass with.

The end result is that though I was ahead in the tech race due to the benefit of getting a free tech in the MA, and I would keep up in the beginning of the MA thanx to the GL, my civ had far too many problems which outweighed the benefits of the wonder. Besides, I could have probably managed to be in about the same financial situation with some well planned trades.

My conclusion: it is not really feasible to attempt an AA wonder with these game settings. If we have a different world size, or do not share a land mass with anyone it would make a difference, as well as trying for a different wonder, however the Great Library was probably the safest wonder because the AI does not usually prioritize Literature highly, even though it has a long build. I am thinking of trying to find a save and go back and choose map making instead of literature and try for great lighthouse to see how that works out with its smaller build.

My seocnd city had built curragh, warrior, then started prebuild for Great Library ...
my expansion was crippled with the second city on prebuild duty ...

You make a strong case for Library instead of Lighthouse. My only thought is whether waiting awhile before starting the pre-build would be better. How close would it be if you hold onto Lit? Let's say you wait until you have 4-5 cities. At that point, you would be only dedicating a fourth or fifth of your resources, at that point, instead of half. (It is like producing settlers as you reach 5 pop vs. 3 pop. Sometimes waiting to build up first gives more then starting right away. I know my math is questionable but you get the point. :undecide: )

I have used a palace prebuild for GL in my last few games. I have lingered in despotism for longer rather than having to commit to new government. I couldn't risk missing build time on library through anarchy. The gold allows embasies to be built etc. with only one scientist researching. I have relied on making contact with civs using suicide galleys etc to keep up on techs, building markets before libraries. This way though, I lag on culture.
I find monarchy easier if I am planning war. Republic is the cash generator in peace. Once the GL is in place, and if I have the tech I will change to gov i want.
"Byz shun Feudalism and prefer Monarchy." No point in waiting for that tech then!

I think I'll have to F10 and see who our opponents are before I decide what do. However: Writing on max is definitely feasible with a river start so I may try that and the republic sling shot provided there are no other seafarers. That said, no seafarers were in the last game, so I think we may have them all this time ;) Depends on what my nomads come up with of course :cool:

Ainwood has already given a strong hint that we're not the only seafaring civ ('Where would be the fun in that?' was his comment), still we'll know definitely in a few hours.

That said, no seafarers were in the last game, so I think we may have them all this time ;) Depends on what my nomads come up with of course :cool:Spain and England are now seafaring in C3C. :)

BTW: Predator handicaps: AI Starting units increased to Deity level; Barb attack bonus removed. :)

That should put the P in predator.

This will be tough. Fast victories will be more scarce than they have been lately perhaps, with archipelago and demigod. Anything above emperor usually forces me to go for diplomatic or space race wins. (Starting some temples, then some libraries, then some more, and then most the AI have riflemen before I can attack them...)

Much depends on the geography of the starting island. If we share it with one civ, that will surely be an advantage. If it's small, it affects the slingshot choice: we may have to pack our cities very tightly to make republic worthwhile, whereas Map Making could allow us to expand to close islands. Code of Laws was an interesting suggestion too.

I tried two games at demigod on standard arch maps. I tried writing min, then philosophy at max. I could not get either one first in either game. At the end of 75 -100 turns, it was terrible. I was 4-6 cities and 2-4 techs behind. I had 3-4 cities.

Spain and England are now seafaring in C3C. :)

BTW: Predator handicaps: AI Starting units increased to Deity level; Barb attack bonus removed. :)

Ooops, thanks for setting me straight. Well, they remained very sedate until Maps and I have yet to see a curragh in my test games. The research pace is frantic on demigod, though, espescially if AI civs share land masses.

You make a strong case for Library instead of Lighthouse. My only thought is whether waiting awhile before starting the pre-build would be better. How close would it be if you hold onto Lit? Let's say you wait until you have 4-5 cities. At that point, you would be only dedicating a fourth or fifth of your resources, at that point, instead of half. (It is like producing settlers as you reach 5 pop vs. 3 pop. Sometimes waiting to build up first gives more then starting right away. I know my math is questionable but you get the point. :undecide: )

The only problem is you will be at war before you get the great library because your contacts will demand literacy and they will not agree to peace unless you give it to them, and if you give it to them you lose the GL because of the wonder cascade, at least that was my experience on my test game.

I am not trying to say this strat would make it impossible to be competitive, I just think this is going to be a very difficult game and pursuing an AA wonder is going to make it that much more difficult unless there are a lot of variables in our favor and there is a lot of good outside our starting screenshot.

When abouts does the save get released? Its 12:20pm here on 1st and I have a free afternoon with nothing to do...

it's 2:30 pm here in Kiwiland- us Kiwis and Aussies almost have to wait till the 2nd of the month don't we!!

About 4 hours from the timestamp of this post. :)

2:00 AM Mountain time USA
4:00 AM ET USA
1:00 AM PT USA
10:00 AM in Spain

How about one last clue for those of us up late?

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/games/images/cotm03mini.jpg

Plus, conquest-class players get 50 gold as well. :)

Plus, conquest-class players get 50 gold as well. :)

Sorry, how big is the map? i couldn't tell from this image. Standard?

Even with the score penalty Conquest players should be near the top of the leaderboard this month with such a generous start bonus!

Sorry, how big is the map? i couldn't tell from this image. Standard?
Yes, it is standard. :)

Yes, it is standard. :)

...but what did you say the map seed number was? ;)

Ainwood, there is a possibility of changing AI aggression levels in C3C. Are you going to change aggression levels in any of future games?

...but what did you say the map seed number was? ;)
Probably wouldn't help you - I had a devil of a problem trying to resolve the tech cost bug for this game, and that might have affected the map seed as stored in the save, and I modded the map anyway! :D

The only problem is you will be at war before you get the great library because your contacts will demand literacy and they will not agree to peace unless you give it to them, and if you give it to them you lose the GL because of the wonder cascade, at least that was my experience on my test game.

I am not trying to say this strat would make it impossible to be competitive, I just think this is going to be a very difficult game and pursuing an AA wonder is going to make it that much more difficult unless there are a lot of variables in our favor and there is a lot of good outside our starting screenshot.

I play my latest test game a little deeper and the situation played out just as you said. I haven't been having problems getting to Phil first so looks like a republic slingshot might have the biggest payoff. I hereby recant all my previous statements with regards to MM and Lit slingshots. :)

On a side note, I have notice that the barbs behaivor is inconsistant. Sometimes they just sit in their camps as has been noted but occasionally they come out swing. I wish I knew what the stimulus was.

BTW: Predator handicaps: AI Starting units increased to Deity level; Barb attack bonus removed. :)
Hmm, it might be wise to move your curragh to a sea tile when barb galleys are approaching. Usually they come in pairs, and you probably won't survive attack. Barbs do not seem to move to a sea tile unless it's in the middle of their way to another coastal tile.

Hello there all you Civ Fanatics type people (this is my first post here).

I just wanted to ask a few questions, as this will be my first game on Demi-God level. Firstly what is the Republic Sling-Shot all about, and how does it work?

A lot of people have been talking about researching Writing on minimum funding and then Philosophy on maximum funding. I don't really understand this, surely it would make sense to have them both on maximum funding so we can get them as soon as possible, and so that none of the AI players would get them first. If as I suspect, it is to generate money to trade with, then why not just get some from barbarian villages instead? (25 gold a time adds up after two or three).

Also I've read some people talking about a free Technology, I know we are Scientific but that means we get a new Technology at the start of each age, so surely that won't be for a long while? (Is this something to do with Philosophy?)

Anyway after reading your wise words I have decided provisionally that I'll move my worker West and then my settler either North West or South West, depending on what my worker sees. Writing seems like the best choice to research first as besides Iron Working it's the only 2nd tier Technology we can get from the start (and from what I hear the AI likes to go for Iron Working pretty soon, so this way we will have something to trade with any luck). My build order will be Curragh, followed by a Warrior and then a Granary (hopefully we'll have traded for Pottery by then, if not I'll start a Barracks and switch over once I have it).

Any advice on the above would be most appreciated, thanks.

Big thanks to Ainwood for doing all the hard work in setting these games up, I've really enjoyed the last two games of the month.

Wet

Also I've read some people talking about a free Technology, I know we are Scientific but that means we get a new Technology at the start of each age, so surely that won't be for a long while? (Is this something to do with Philosophy?)


The first civ to research Philosophy gets a free tech in c3c.

I just wanted to ask a few questions, as this will be my first game on Demi-God level. Firstly what is the Republic Sling-Shot all about, and how does it work?


When you research Alphabet, Writing, Code of Laws, Philosophy you can chose The Republic as free tech. Which will get you an advanced government very soon, why it is called a slingshot. You also get a very expensive tech for Philosophy. Mark, this is risky on higher difficulty levels, as the AI researches fast and may get Philosophy before you.

A lot of people have been talking about researching Writing on minimum funding and then Philosophy on maximum funding. I don't really understand this, surely it would make sense to have them both on maximum funding so we can get them as soon as possible, and so that none of the AI players would get them first. If as I suspect, it is to generate money to trade with, then why not just get some from barbarian villages instead? (25 gold a time adds up after two or three).


Some techs are very expensive when you have a few cities. Just have a look at the number of turns it takes you to research on any given tech %. If you start researching writing, minimun 10-20% will be as fast as 100%, while saving you gold. Forget about barb huts on demi-good, as long as you are not expansionist. You will get barbs too often.

Welcome!

I just wanted to ask a few questions, as this will be my first game on Demi-God level. Firstly what is the Republic Sling-Shot all about, and how does it work?
First civ to Philosophy gets a free tech in [c3c]. So Writing, Code of Laws, Philosophy, free republic. That's the slingshot.

A lot of people have been talking about researching Writing on minimum funding and then Philosophy on maximum funding. I don't really understand this, surely it would make sense to have them both on maximum funding so we can get them as soon as possible, and so that none of the AI players would get them first.
Generally nothing you put into research for writing in the beginning will speed things up. It is better to save the gold for trading for other techs. Once you have writing you should be big enough to increase the research rate. Of, course it does hurt to check from time to time.

If as I suspect, it is to generate money to trade with, then why not just get some from barbarian villages instead? (25 gold a time adds up after two or three).
It is nice to supplement your income but warriors aren't going to do anything but die on higher levels. You will need at least archers to try that. I spend more time trying to survive the ones that come my way. Much less going hunt them out. [c3c] barbs will sometimes sit in camp unless you stir them up.

Also I've read some people talking about a free Technology, I