Always War Sid C3C 1.22 As the Mayan Fightin' Farmers [ Concurrent with HNDY05b, an AWS game as the Slammin' Sumerians (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=95052). ]
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/jeff.jpg
Let loose the dudes of war. :p

Another chapter in a series of Always War tiny continent maps by the Grumpy Old Men of War Always War Always :confused: Did you mean Always War? Err, no, ugh, I meant to do it that way. :mischief: GOMOWA
HNDY04-AWD (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=90672)|HNDY03-AWDG (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=87859)|HNDY02-AWE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=85204)


C3C 1.22 Patch
Level: Sid
Variant: Always War
Civilization: Mayans
Continents: 70% Water
Size: Tiny
Age: 5 Billion
Temperature: Temperate
Climate: Normal
Barbarians: Sedentary (We can use the cash)
Rivals: 3 Randomly Selected
AI Aggression: Normal
Victory Condition: All are enabled. We could lose to a UN vote [if we get that far ;) ] We’ll take a win any way we can get it, but conquest or domination are preferred.
Culturally linked starts: Off
Respawn: Off
Preserve Random Seed: On
Cultural Conversion: On
Patch: 1.22 C3C

Roster
Handy
T_McC
Greebley [Out 7/24 to 8/7]
Barbslinger
Yom [Out until ??]

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/HNDY02_luckycandle.gif
Lucky candle to light the way.


Always War Boilerplate as we play it
You may only trade when you first meet a civilization, and must declare war on the same turn after trading is complete. If you see a new AI unit, you must make contact & declare war that turn. Absolutely no turn based trade (such as GPT) allowed. If you see a new face on F4, you are obligated to declare war that turn (after trading). Players must declare war if they are exploring and see AI units, but are not required to actually attack the units they come in contact with. No peace treaties, ever. You may check F4 as often as you like to spy on the AI's tech, resources, luxuries & city count. We are not allowed to build embassies .

Discuss any move that seems exploitive before doing it with the team. Although there are not too many exploits available in AW, we’ll follow the forbidden blatant exploits banned by GOTM and RBCiv such as no "Free Wealth". Other normal game exploits such as "Baiting the AI" with an empty city to create a kill zone are an AW tradition and are allowed. Also, you ARE allowed to initially keep a city, move a settler to the same spot as the city, and then abandon and immediately resettle. This is considered an exploit in RBCiv rules, but is okay in our AW games. In addition if you need to build a city one square deeper into enemy territory just to move borders to steal a resource, go for it. We may keep or raze cities, and can keep slaves. You may whip at will, including captured cities or cities where all citizens are unhappy.

SG Stuff
You have 24 hours for an "I got it" and 72 to play. If you need a one day extension, then mention this before the 72 hours are up. Players can work out skips between themselves, just post a message to the thread. If you can't play within 72 total, switch places or ask for a skip. We will play 10 turns at first, and possibly fewer later (5) if the turns begin to take too long.

Roster
Handy
T_McC <- UP
Greebley [Out 7/24 to 8/7]
Barbslinger
Yom [Out until ??]

The world @ 2550 BC. Turn log for the first 30 turns is in the planning thread.

I don't have it.

Amended roster:

Barbslinger - Up!
Yom
T_McC
Greebley [skip until 8/7]
Handy [skip until 8/1, at least]

This way the same person isn't up in both HNDY games at once. And I want Yom to pick up SGOTM3 first. :p (I think it's just he and I right now :rolleyes: )

Alrighty then. Got it!

Preturn – Adjust capital for growth and settler in 3 allowing a taxman to up our research to BW in 15.
IT – Forest clears to reveal a BG
[1] 2510 – Mining BG in 2 and then will road to dyes.
[2] 2470 – Nada
[3] 2430 – Mine completes and road is down in Copan. Settler and a warrior head for dyes. Adjust pop and sliders to 11g –1gpt, BW in 12. Chichen set to worker, hoping we don’t get a visitor.
[4] 2390 – Settler moving
[5] 2350 – Decide to settle on dye with coastal access. Warrior jumps on hill to have a look. Chichen-Worker>Settler.
[6] 2310 – Copan-Rax>Warrior. Paleneque settled. Roading there. Copan goes to settler.
[7] 2270 – Not much. Settler in 2.
[8] 2230 – Playing with pop trying to keep from being broke.
[9] 2190 – Move settler SE to settle there and see a border across a short sea. :sad:
[10] 2150 – Head SE still and we have another cow. Road completes and BW after adjustment is due in 4 at +1gpt. Raoding and chopping.

I think I would settle where he stands and continue settler production for both cash and future military. According to F10 it looks like the Greeks across the way and we’ll see him soon after MM. Do we want to get war going now to hold up his research?



http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/HNDY05a_BC2150.jpg

I'll take this one, and let Yom come up after me.

Should at least start tonight.

HNDY05a - Make Mine Mayan!

2150 BC (0)
The 4-turn settler factory is up and running. May soon be turned into a 2-turn worker factory, though.

Swap a couple of tiles around and make a buck.

This is what Sid means: We still haven't researched a tech.

IT - Just hope Greece is not on our island.

2110 BC (1)
Tikal founded on spot. I hate to waste our Ag trait by not founding next to the lake, but we need the cow. Starts on Warrior.

Lux to 20% for Chichen.

I say this almost every game, but I still can't see how people can play with "Show Food and Shields ..." turned on. I find it much easier to distinguish between BG and non-BG with it off.

IT - The Pyramids and the Oracle are both completed. Alex built the big pointy thing.

2070 BC (2)
Chop completes at Palenque.

Turn sliders down to net BW next turn.

IT - BW comes in, and I have to figure we get visited by Alex soon. So I head for WC and our mighty Javelins.

2030 BC (3)
Chichen builds Settler, set for a 1-turn Warrior.

IT - Nothing.

1990 BC (4)
Chichen set for a 3-turn settler. Copan builds settler. This one goes to complete our 1st ring. Initial settler in position to found next turn.

IT - Spot another set of boundaries across the bay: the Inca!

1950 BC (5)
Yaxchilan founded, starts on Worker.

Lux tax to 20% for Chichen. Another settler is in place to found next turn.

1910 BC (6)
Tikal builds Warrior, goes to Worker.

Bonampak founded. City pops a hut to give us a free Warrior. City starts a Warrior.

Still don't know anyone else.

IT - Nothing.

1870 BC (7)
Chichen builds settler, who sets out for a gold hill. City stays on Settler.

1830 BC (8)
Greek borders expand, no contact.

1790 BC (9)
Copan build Warrior, starts another. Tikal swapped to Settler, as we'll get irrigation to that cow soon.

1750 BC (10)
You want to talk about vetoable: Lagartero founded and starts on Forbidden Palace. Seriously worth thinking about, we may get this built in the BC years without a leader. Will need a lot of worker attention. More discussion in next post with a picture.

Here you see our almost perfect, yet still complete ring around our capital. I think there are 6-7 more city sites on this island, we may have the whole thing filled in the next 25 turns. Pink dots are a couple of suggested sites. There is a spot N of the W pink dot that fits with this pattern and claims the Ivory. Just not enough room to fit it in the picture. I would send the next two settlers from Chichen towards that Ivory and claim both spots in rapid succession.

After we build enough settlers to fill the island I feel we should turn Chichen into a 2-turn worker farm. The nice thing is that the city can then cede some or the mined BG to our other 1st ring cites to help them build military.

I wouldn't blink an eye until we had >30 workers given this terrain. Our advantage is to get as many of the land tiles in use before we have to fight an aggressive war.

Our workers are currently in the south roading/irrigating that cow. Our priority after that may be to connect our FP city to the capital (and thus lowering corruption) and getting the Ivory on-line.

Yom is up in this one.

Handy may be back on Sunday.

I know I'm up. I'm just busy, that's all. I'm hopefully going to get this and B tonight.

Btw, Lagartero is on an FP. It was founded this turn, so it was most likely determined by the Governor. Do we want to keep it on the FP? With Ivory nearby, we can easily snag Zeus (only 8 turns for Chichen if we let it grow and use choice tiles). Do we want to complete it in Chichen or another city so that Chichen can pump workers after our island is settled. Finally, we seem to have ignored the Literature path altogether. We can still go for it, and with a powerhouse like Chichen, I would. What does the team think? It'll be hard to keep up in Tech on Sid without TGL.

BTW, Chichen can do 1 warrior + 1 settler every 4 turns.

No need to rush. These aren't turns we want to play in a hurry. Pretty much every turn, every city MM.

Btw, Lagartero is on an FP. It was founded this turn, so it was most likely determined by the Governor. Do we want to keep it on the FP?

Nope, I picked that. It's the best spot on our island for the FP and we may be able to finish it in the BC years. We should have an exclusive on the SoZ, which conveniently enough is 200 shields like the FP. Should we pop a leader before the FP completes we can swap to Zeus and rush the FP on the turn after it completes. I don't want to rely on a leader to build an FP this game, so I feel the best way to handle the situation is to pick a city and just do it from the start.

I would not use Chichen for a wonder, it's too valuable for producing workers and settlers. We have a screaming need for workers given the amount of jungle we have on our continent. I feel the best way to keep up with the Sid AI's is to improve all of our tiles ASAP. We should be able to claim our entire continent in about 20-25 turns (I think you'll build 4 settlers on your turn, and there are only 6-7 city spots left.)

With Ivory nearby, we can easily snag Zeus (only 8 turns for Chichen if we let it grow and use choice tiles).

That ain't true. But we could do in 16 turns (13 spt?) or 17 turns (12 spt). Since we have an exclusive on the wonder, I really don't want to tie our capital up building it. We may be able to start in another of our 1st ring cities once we get them all stood up well. Chichen on workers, 3-4 cities on military, 1 city on a Wonder.

Finally, we seem to have ignored the Literature path altogether. We can still go for it, and with a powerhouse like Chichen, I would. What does the team think? It'll be hard to keep up in Tech on Sid without TGL.

Big gamble to build in Chichen. I wouldn't object to picking another city and dedicating it to building the Great Library (or just some wonder). Less of a gamble, but still a gamble. We're basically OCC'ing here for a few more turns. And it may take quite a while to research to Lit (we don't even know Alphabet!). We can always capture the Great Library from someone else.

BTW, Chichen can do 1 warrior + 1 settler every 4 turns.

You have to watch who works what tiles. While the other cities are size 1, we can do 10 spt in Chichen. After the other cities grow it may be more profitable to let them use a mined BG or 2. (We still have a couple of tiles to improve around Chichen). If we decide to use Chichen as a worker pump, it may be able to surrender all of the BG's it can share with other cities.

My mistake on the 8 turns, I don't know what I was thinking (except that I calculated the time to build a 100-shield wonder). I'll probably dedicate a city to a TGL prebuild, though. It's too good to pass up, IMHO.

Having a Wonder-building city is fine. Since we'll have an expensive Palace we should be able to get something out of it, even if we don't get The Library.

Don't know which city is the best candidate. The one in the jungle NE of Chichen has had a forest chop credited to it, so it has to finish its Barracks before it can be switched to the Palace.

Just flew back from San Francisco, and boy are my arms tired. ;)

I can pick it up after Yom.

Turn 0 - It looks like we'll be out of places to settle soon.
Lagartero is on the FP. Is this intential or determined by the
Governor?

IBT - Chichen Itza:Settler->warrior
Bonampak:warrior->Barracks

Turn 1 - I switch Yaxchilan to the Colossus (Literature prebuild).
I'm surprised that we don't automatically have contact with Greece
yet.

IBT - Chichen:warrior->Settler.
Corinth completes the colossus.

Turn 2 - Yaxchilan switched to granary.

IBT - We learn warrior code (it was 2 turns away, so we contacted
greece). Alphabet will come in 12 turns at 0 gpt. I guess moving
the workers to a tile adjacent to his borders caused contact.

Turn 3 - I dial up Alexander. He has Alphabet, The Wheel,
CB, and IW over us. We have no techs over him and little money,
so war is declared immediately (our research will be cheaper
though).
Silly me. We already had Masonry, so I swap Yaxchilan on the
palace. Actually, Tikal might be a better place to build TGL.
Yaxchilan is switched back to a worker. Copan is switched from a
worker to a Jav.

Turn 4 - Not Much. There's land south of the tip of our island (not
conntected though).

IBT - Chichen:Settler->Warrior.
Yaxchilan:Worker->Barracks.

Turn 5 - Not much.

IBT - Crap, that's not good. Greece already has map making and a
greek Galley shows up near Tikal.
Chichen:warrior->Jav (The Greeks have IW, and I don't want to
face swords with warriors).

Turn 6 - Nothing, bracing for a Greek Landing.

IBT - The Galley heads to the south but another Galley shows up
East of Yaxchilan.

Turn 7 - Quirigua founded.

IBT - The Greek Galley leaves.

Turn 8 - Nothing.

IBT - Chichen:Jav->Settler
The Greeks are building MoM and The Hanging Gardens!!!

Turn 9 - Calakmul founded.

Turn 10 - We're in OK shape, but Greece has a huge tech
advantage. Tikal will hopefully bring in TGL and prove our
savior. I would mine as many plains in that area as possible (even
mine over one of my irrigated ones) to make sure it has good
production and join in some workers. Since Chichen Itza will be
producing a lot of workers soon (which only needs 5spt), we can
irrigate one of its cows and give the mined one to Tikal to get
more spt. Actually, the 2 Cows and 4 mined plains is the ideal
set-up for Tikal, producing 13 spt before corruption. I would
work toward this immediately and would pop out 2 settlers from
Chichen to fill up our lands.

We only have 2 spots left to settle on our island. One is 2 S 1 SE
of Tikal and the other is 1 N 2 NE of Quirigua. We have not contacted
the Inca (the pink civilization), and I would refrain from doing so
until we have a decent army to defend against landings. 1 Jav
Thrower and some warriors isn't going to cut it.
As for Zeus, We can (hopefully) get it any time we want in any
city we choose. We can go for a quick build in Chichen or use
Bonampak, Copan or Yaxchilan to build it. Either way, I would
research Math until we have researched Literature. I would
research Writing at a rate faster than 10% (our prebuild won't last
that long) since Tikal is an average producer and The Greeks
already have writing. Literature, OTOH, should be delayed until
the turns before our pre-build runs out so that our discovery
doesn't help the Greeks/Incans research it faster.

Oh yeah, Alphabet is due in 4 with 8 gold at -1 gpt.

Hey Yom, the save 1500bc save you posted does not have us at war with Greece. :confused: Did you declare?

I can declare on my first turn if you forgot, but though I'd ask first before I played.

I'm pretty sure I declared... Though I did reload to fix a mis-click. Maybe that's why we're not at war. Go ahead and declare for me.

Fight Farmers Fight. Mooooo
Wow, that's inspiring. :rolleyes:

Reader’s Digest Version:
Greece invaded with 8 units on two fronts. They attacked and pillaged.
We lost a few improved tiles, but lost no cities and no units.
We have a javelin army to play with. :D
Only 2 Greek intruders left.
Still no sign of the Inca or Byzantines.

Interesting map. Lots of cows, appropriate for the Mooyans. :p

Pre Turn
F4 peek shows we only know Alex.

Err, ugh, we have not declared on Alexander yet, :nono: so I declare war on Greece.

I decided to go ahead & play after declaring war. If you guys feel this “taints” the AW, I’ll play it again from a new save. I think Yom meant to declare war but forgot.
We are very light on defense (no walls & only warrior for garrison) up in the north. The FP build with only a warrior conscript as a guard is asking for trouble. Glib is a distant dream at this point. Since there are 2 AI borders in view we’ll see a lot of landings in the near future. We Need Acav for protection, so I expect we’ll switch Tikal to SoZ after we hook up the ivory. I plan to go for math next for cats & Acav.
Leader miracle sure would be nice.

I agree Tikal does need 2 irrigated cows & 4 mined plains. We are really light on workers. At least we got several cities down before the GA. We should have build spears instead of javelins to postpone the GA. Oh well…

I wish Tikal had walls.

IBT
Bonampak – walls – barracks (I switched the build) before I hit enter.

Turn 1 1475
Worker stuff.

IBT
Greece founds a city - Ephesus - in the south on our continent.
Chichen – settler – spear (we’ll need another city after we raze the Greek city in the south. Until then we 2 turn spears. Greece will land somewhere soon.
Palenque – barracks – spear

Turn 2 1450
Chichen has 10spt for 2 turn spears. We need a bunch. We also need workers, but that will have to wait. Using single warriors to guard cities is begging for trouble. All the other cities will take too long to build spears. Since there is probably a hoplite in that southern Greek city, we’ll need cat support to raze it. We need cats in the worst way.
Can dial down research. Alpha in 2 @ 0gpt

IBT
Copan – javelin – spear
Greece builds Temple of Artemis.

Turn 3 1425
Not much.
Alpha in 1 but cannot adjust slider.

IBT
Alpha – Math due in 20 losing 1 GPT with 5 in the bank. When we have to turn it down, it will move to due in 46. Unless a javelin win on defense starts the GA. We really need cats and Acav to help us on defense. If we don’t survive, we can’t win. Fortunately the pink border Inca have not shown up on F4 yet.
Chichen – spear – worker. I’m concerned about the impending Greek invasion. Chichen is up to 11 spt, and can pop a worker in 1 turn, then do another 2 turn spear.

Turn 4 1400
Greece has a huge culture lead.
The spear is going to the FP build (currently a conscript warrior).
Gosh we need roads in the north.

IBT
Chichen – worker – spear

Turn 5 1375
Sliders @ 70/10 with math due in 16 @ +1gpt.
Two workers are sent to build roads towards the ivory.
Irrigation of the cows for Tikal will have to wait a while. The Tikal pre-build may have to go to SoZ.
MM Chichen to grow in 2 and produce a worker in 2.
I stuck a warrior on the cow to induce a Greek attack. It worked & we avoided the GA for at least a couple of turns.
Greece is probably building galleys like mad to load with hoplites and archers.
I’d like to wait to begin the GA until more tiles are improved. Otherwise it would take forever to research for the Glib.
F4 still no sign of the Inca

IBT
Cuzco finishes MoM
Greece starts Great Wall
Greece starts Hanging Gardens
A Greek archer moves out of the southern city. I’ll replace the javelin in Tikal with a spear to avoid the GA.

Turn 6 1350
Sliders have to go to 70/20 to keep Chichen happy. Math 15 turns +1gpt.
Still only Greece on F4.
Switch to spear in Copan. I want more spears to avoid starting the GA (and they are cheaper and we have woefully inadequate defenses).
Did I mention I wished Tikal had walls?

IBT
Chichen – spear – spear
Greeks are building Hanging Gardens
Greeks land 2 hoplites, warrior and Archer N of Copan.
Archer moves out of Ephesus in the South.

Turn 7 1325 BC
Copan is switched to walls. We are going to get captured, pillaged or both.
Change some builds to walls.
Copan has a spear & warrior garrison.

IBT
Bonampak – barracks - walls
Warrior attacks Copan & dies to a spear.
Greece pillages road & mine @ Copan.
Greece lands another archer.
Greece now has near 1 hoplite and 2 archers N of Copan.
The second Hoplite has moved next to Chichen & will likely pillage like a madman.
In the south, the Southern Greek city has contributed a hoplite to the archer mix.
Total units in the Mayan lands are now 2 hoplites & 2 archers in north. One of each in the South.

Turn 8 1300 BC
The people admire our achievements, we’ll see ho they feel next turn.
Hey - T_McC - I switch your FP pre-build a barracks - we have 18 in the box so you can switch it back if you like. I did it based on a rumor an FP pre-build tends to attract special AI attention?? Any truth to this rumor?
Antway, no loss of shileds, and we have 20 turns to switch back with no loss if you like.
The settler arrives and next turn will found by the ivory.

IBT
We begin our Golden Age with a Javelin victory versus an archer on Defense :(
The javelin promoted to elite.
Chichen – spear – spear
Yax – walls – barracks
Copan – spear – spear
Hoplite pillages mine W of Chichen.

Turn 9 1275 bc :bounce:
I don’t believe it. The newly minted elite javelin attacks an archer and gets a leader on the very first elite victory. That javelin killed 2 archers AND popped a leader!
This in an interesting little problem to chew on. Do we go for a javelin army to rid our lands of the Greeks - and get several slaves? Do we build an FP – in a city with no improved tiles?
Decide to build a javelin Army, so I switch Chichen to get 16 spt to build a quick javelin.
I’m hoping a javelin army can hold off the Greeks for a while and get us some slaves.
F4 still shows no sign of the Inca.

IBT
Spear at Copan beats archer on Defense. No more Greek archers. :thumbsup:
The cow S of Tikal is pillaged by the Greek hoplite.

Turn 10 1250bc
Load second javelin in the army and kill hoplite, but no slave.
Now only 2 hoplites left.


Notes:
Sorry about the GA, it couldn’t be helped.
We are down to only 2 remaining hoplites in our lands.
I think we will need the army to deal with the next batch.
Math in 6 @ +1gpt. Math in 5 -1gpt is also an option if you switch Chichen's taxdude to scientist.
We need cats & SoZ big time since we’ll soon be at war with 3 AI.
Because the Greeks pillaged, Chichen only got 12 shields in the box, so I MM’d it to 10spt for this build cycle. I gave shields to other cities. Next cycle you MM to pull 16 (2 turn javelins) if you want. I think the other cities need the shields more.
I think it will take you 2 turns, but you can stop the pillaging with the army.
Map Making (galleys) is a long way off. I think we should load a third javelin in our army. We can send an Acav army to the other lands when we pop another leader.
Expect an AI dogpile soon. Greece may get allies to join against us now that we have killed several of their units.
I’m surprised the Inca have not sent a boat over yet.
We really need more workers. Chichen can kick them out in 1 turn, after the third jav is built. Chichen can also do 2 turn spears @ 10spt.
Palenque needs walls after the spear is built.
Please be careful with the army. :)

Somebody double check my MMing :D

Picture below.

1250bc

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/HNDY05a_1250bc.JPG

:goodjob: Good turns. With the jav army, though, do we still need Zeus so urgently? I would think TGL is worth more to us.

[lurk]
Umm, not sure if this is the case in 1.22, but I remember in the other patch if you made a jav army, you lose the Enslave ability.
[de-lurk]

[lurk]
Umm, not sure if this is the case in 1.22, but I remember in the other patch if you made a jav army, you lose the Enslave ability.
[de-lurk]


Thanks for the head up, but oh gosh, I hope not. :( Still, I think we need the army to get rid of the hoplites. Otherwise they would pillage us to death.

With the jav army, though, do we still need Zeus so urgently? I would think TGL is worth more to us.

Well, we definitely need math so we can get some cats built to help the kill ratio. The nice thing about SoZ is an Acav every 5 turns. At Sid level, the free unit every 5 turns is pretty important. We can't win unless we pillage, and an Acav army can pillage for several centuries with no worry. Also, they are attack 3, so they are good leader producers. I'd love to get both, let's see how it goes in the next few turns. We are paper thin on defense right now and we don't have roads built to move units around. Against 3 Sid AI's we are going to need alot better defense than we have. Maybe we can get SoZ from somewhere else.

Looks solid.

The third member of the Jav army can't come soon enough. Until we get a 3rd unit in there the Army only attacks at 2, not 3. I still believe it can enslave, but we'll find that out soon enough.

Lagartero is ~83% corrupt. :eek: Still a good location for the FP but I fear it will require a leader now. A 200-turn build in not appealing. I would complete Walls there and then build worker/catapult until we can get some squares cleared for it to work. Good use for the next leader, though.

We should have an exclusive on Zeus. The only reasons why we should swap Tikal to Zeus immediately are: (1) Our pre-build wouldn't last until we can discover Lit. That is not the case. Even in a GA we're 53 turns until we have 400 shields. (2) We are so overwhelmed that we need the units. Still possible, but if we can get our other cities improved we should be able to build enough Cats/Javs to handle whatever Greece can land. We can build the SoZ in 19 turns. (3) We just feel we cannot afford to have a 350-shield SoZ in case we get beat to the Great Library. This is kind of the same as (2) and right now I feel we can take the gamble.

Critical thing it to get the island cleared of the current Greeks and to be able to crank out a workforce. We weren't able to stay isolated long enough, so we've got more cities than workers.

I didn't notice much on the MM. The taxman in Chichen should be a Scientist, and a few tiles can be swapped between Copan/Chichen/Yax that has the net effect of transferring a mined BG from Yax to Copan. End result was Math 2 turns faster at break-even.

That leader was such a lucky break. Hoplites against javelins is a bad match.

Looks like the recent play (handy, yom, T_McC) order puts Slinger in the hot seat.

Slinger <- up
T_McC
Yom
Handy
Greebley [out on vacation to 8/7]

The little woman reminded me I'll be out next Friday thru Sunday to see my nephew get married in Texas. Don't you just love weddings. :rolleyes:

Jav armies do not lose their ability to enslave. I know they didn't before 1.22. I was testing out the power of new armies in MesoAmerican mod (I modded in a bunch of starting units and armies for the inca to get a quick test) and those armies enslaved fine as long as they only had enslaving units. Plus, I'm pretty sure the Mayan armies in LKendter's most recent AW Mayan game were used to enslave. I'm not sure how it would work with mixed armies. Perhaps it only has a chance of enslaving if a jav-thrower is the current unit when it wins?

Hmm, I think that is where I was wrong Yom. The rule was it won't enslave if there is a mixed unit. Bah, I am messing you guys up here. Sorry about that.

Hmm, I think that is where I was wrong Yom. The rule was it won't enslave if there is a mixed unit. Bah, I am messing you guys up here. Sorry about that.

That's a major boost. Let's hope Slinger is lucky with the slaves. We can certainly use them. :goodjob:

With a Jav army defending inside a walled town, you will pick up a ton of slaves against a Sid AI. I've been messing around with continents AWD (only deity...) and I've got around 30 slaves in 450BC.

By the way, I love lurking your games. Keep up the good work. :hammer:

Btw, if we don't want contact with the Incans, the trick is to not move any units to a tile adjacent to their borders. It doesn't matter if our borders are touching if there are no units next to the borders. I learned this the hard way with Greece.

By the way, I love lurking your games. Keep up the good work. :hammer:

Thanks for saying hello. I've lurked several of your SG's too. :)

Got it. Will play tonight.

HNDY02B – 1250BC

Preturn- Swap around some tiles to get math in 4. Looks like we are about to pillaged! :eek: We are now at 7g –1gpt.

Preturn – We get pillaged and a greek warrior lands in our north looking to attack Lagerto’s conscript warrior.
[1] 1225 – Fortify and batten down the hatches in Lagerto. Put spears to cover road leading north out of capital.
IT – Our conscript loses the 1st round and then takes 3 straight promoting. Whew!
[2] 1200 – We re at math in 3 at break even. New jav thrower out of Chichen loads into army and dispatchs Hoplite. No slave.
IT – Force Hoplite to move towards Chichen.
[3] 1175 – Kill Hoplite and pick up a slave. Readjust tiles, keeping 10spt in Chichen. Math in 2. Looks like we will have a couple ladings in Lagerto again. I had 2 spears heading up there.
IT – Archer comes up from the south. The galleys decide against Lagerto and continue CW.
[4] 1150 – Math comes in 1 at +26gpt. Waiting on builds. Our only Greek trouble is the archer which should fall next turn.
IT – Carthage completes Lighthouse. Chichen –Jav>Jav
[5] 1125 – Kill the archer and the army and the new jav are going to try to take the town in our south. Math is in, IW in 6 at 0gpt. Ivory on line in 3.
IT – GREAT! Greeks are building SunTzus! Another archer comes to play. Looks like Incan ships are in view.
[6] 1100 - No deals unless I blow our rep which I don’t mind doing but we are honorable. It’s war. BTW, the greek ships went towards his lands and he is gracious right now so they may be at war.
[7] 1075 – We take Epheseus and will burn it down once we get a settler. Collected 1 slave. I swapped Chichen to one.
IT – Chichen-Settler>Jav, Copan- Walls>Jav, Paleneque-Spear> Walls.
[8] 1050 – Ivory on line and Zeus is in 6. Kill the archer. No slave.
[9] 1025 – Just realized we have to bring water to the north. Workers head south. IW next turn at +10gpt.
[10] 1000 – IW in, set to wheel, negotiable. Greeks start Glib. Carthage has the Wall. Incan land a warrior N of Paleneque. Epheseus abandoned and settler on site to settle next turn.

Ahhh, a builder's turn!

Glad to see you have already switched to Zeus. I was going to when I got the game. No way we outbuild a Sid AI who only has to pull 160 shields, so Greece started the Library just in time so that we wouldn't waste any shields on Zeus.

I'll look at the save on Tuesday night. Hopefully we can get away with building a whole stack of workers next round. All we need now is a leader for the FP and we're in serious business.

BTW, I forgot t even look and now have. NO IRON!

BTW, I forgot t even look and now have. NO IRON!

IIRC we have not yet researched Iron Working.


Slinger
T_McC <- UP
Yom
Handy [out for wedding 8/6 & 8/7]
Greebley [out on vacation to 8/7]

You only have one visible hill though with the possiblity of iron. May be others under some towns, but i can't see from the picture

I think we have researched IW. That's why the research target is now the Wheel.

We have more than that one Hill. At least 3 of our cities are built on Hills. Having Ivory makes up for most of the lack of Iron. If we can build enough Cats I think our preferred 30-shield offensive unit would be Javs over Swords anyway. Free labor makes up for lost units fairly quickly, so long as we can restrict ourselves to attacking weakened opponents. AC is close enough to Knights for us to use on our continent. Biggest problem will be lack of Pikes. To cover that we need another Army or two.

My bigger concern is that we have little chance of Saltpeter on this island. If we can't build Cavs I'm not sure what exactly we do. Hopefully the Great Library is built somewhere that has Iron and Salt in the city radius. :lol:

Also wouldn't kill us to get a boat out and map our immediate area. If the Greeks/Incas are spread across multiple islands things may be a little easier. :devil2:

I think we have researched IW. That's why the research target is now the Wheel.



That's what happens when you are gone from the game for a week. :blush:

HNDY05a - I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings!

1000 BC (0)
We have 8 turns of GA remaining. Have to watch what happens as regards lux. First thing I do is turn science up to 70% to get The Wheel in 4. We'll get that and CB by the end of our GA, although we'll probably lose a few bucks due to not being able to accurately place the science slider on the last turn of the GA.

We are way under our allowed units. I hope to be able to build 5 workers from Chichen this turn. Would be nice if the Greeks and Inca cooperated.

We're looking OK as far as defense goes. Offense still sucks.

Would really like to swap the Barracks build in Lagartero, but too far along not to be wasteful. Let it be for this turn. Swap one city to Catapult, one to Worker. I'll survey the situation again in about 5 turns. We don't need many regular Warriors taking up space.

IT - Incan Warrior dies like the pig that he is.

975 BC (1)
Greeks are approaching. Couple of Galleys have pulled out, but our Jav Army can handle anything they land.

Chichen: Jav --> Worker. It begins.

We get the Great Library message about Greece again. :rolleyes:

Lagartero: Barracks --> Walls

Something completely unintelligible founded in the South. Renamed to Angelou.

Decide to whip the Catapult in Quirigua. City can only grow every 20 turns, and pulls 1 spt even in the GA.

950 BC (2)
Chichen: Worker --> Worker

925 BC (3)
Greeks land an Archer by Lagartero. Catapult misses, but it will have to attack our Army.

Science turned down to still get Wheel next turn.

IT - What an idiot. Greek Archer suicides on Jav Army. On a Hill. No slave, though.

900 BC (4)
The Wheel comes in. Science to 90% and Writing in 5.

Zeus completes, Tikal set to Barracks.

There are no Horses on our island. This may become a great story.

IT - I think we just got a float-by by the Carthaginians. Incans drop off a Spear.

875 BC (5)
Spear gets bombed.

850 BC (6)
Reach out and touch Hannibal. He's huge. 14 cities. Good news is that we will get Writing by the end of our GA now.

Jav can't beat 2 HP spear, Army cleans up and claims a slave.

IT - Nothing.

825 BC (7)
Adjust sliders, raising lux to 20%. Science remains at 80%. I'll risk a few gold to ensure we get the tech even if our GA ends on the IT.

800 BC (8)
Turns out our GA didn't end. We got Writing anyway, course set for CB in 4.

IT - GA ends. Carthage drops a NuMerc - Warrior Combo north of Lagartero. Must have coal and rubber at that spot.

775 BC (9)
We get our 1st vet AC. Jungle is starting to be hacked down. NuMerc takes a catapult shot.

Chichen is configure for 5 spt, +5 fpt. Two-turn workers until we've got enough.

750 BC (10)
The Inca drop off an Elite* Horseman. Carthage drops off a Warrior.

Jav Army enslaves Horseman, Calakmul can be attacked by the reg. warrior next turn. We have a Vet warrior fortified behind Walls on a Hill on defense. About 3-1 in our favor.

Adjust sliders: CB is a really cheap tech. We can build up some cash to run deficit research towards next target.

Final Notes:
Next leader is invited to whip the Catapult in Lazapa. The city is stuck at size 2, and this way we get 2 Catapults in 21 turns instead of 1 in 20. If we can disband a regular Warrior in Quirigua in the next 11 turns, the Cat will complete 1 turn before growth (and the end of the previous whip penalty) and you can whip the next Cat 1 turn after growth. Actually, this isn't the next leader's problem. It's for the guy after him.

I strongly suggest we keep Chichen on 2-turn workers for at least the next 20 turns. We currently have 11 Workers and 4 Slaves. Getting this number close to 30 total workers should be our goal. My priority with the workers was to build roads on all flat tiles, then to start clearing jungle. Right now there are a lot of cities poaching tiles from Chichen. By the time we're ready to put Chichen back on military duty we should have enough jungle tiles cleared to return most tiles to Chichen.

I would suggest we research Construction after CB. We'll have a decent cushion of cash to run deficit research. Then we can head for Monarchy. Getting Construction first allows us time to build Aqueducts (and Colosseums) so we don't get killed by unit support under Monarchy (and to give us a margin to merge some of our native workforce once we get most tiles improved). Code of Laws is also attractive to build Courthouses.

We're close to being safe from invasions. A few more Javs and 3-4 more AC will give us enough firepower to stop all but the most serious landings, especially if we keep up with the artillery. When the AI starts to land Cavs ....

The Granary in Tikal is a pre-build for a Temple. We also have to decide how long we want to wait for a leader to rush the FP. I had a terrible time trying to get easy shots to promote our units. If we don't want to wait for a leader Tikal is the only reasonable place to build the FP.

Next leader should also make it a priority to knock down the forest N of Lagartero. There were 3 or 4 landings on that square. We don't need to allow the AI the defensive bonus of the Forest.

Picture of our empire. All that green-and-leafy has to go.

Pink circle is the Carthaginian Warrior.

Looks like we will have to find a spot to squeeze in a 12th town sooner or later too. We are going to need to get some serious pillaging done to have any chance at all.

This looks pretty good. :D

I guess Yom is up since the recent players were T_McC, Slinger & me.

Yom is up
Greebley
Handy
Slinger
T_McC

FYI I'm gone Friday & Saturday. Back Sunday afternoon.

Turn 0 - Nothing. However, all of our enemies are unfortunately in the Middle ages.

IBT - The carthaginian warrior by Calakmul loses and promotes our warrior to elite status. Greece then drops off an archer in the same tile.
Calakmul:Worker->barracks.
Utica has completed The Great Library. Could we have finished it faster than this?

Turn 1 - Well, that warrior won't be seeing action in the future, so why not see if we can get a leader out of him first. The warrior defeats the archer, losing 1 hp, but no leader. I switch Bonampak from a spearman to a Jav. Thrower. Spearmen may have a longer upgrade line, but some more offensive is always appreciated.

IBT - Carthage drops off yet another warrior by Calakmul.
Ceremonial Burial comes in, I set research to Mysticism in 4 turns at +1 gpt. Next technology will probably be construction or currency. We'll need marketplaces and aqueducts before Monarchy becomes a good alternative to despotism.
Chichen:worker->worker

Turn 2 - Not much.

IBT - Ouch, tough turn for Calakmul (not sure why all the AIs have a hard-on for it). Carthage drops off 2 Numidian mercenaries to the north (though its warrior retreats) and Greece drops off 2 hoplites to the East.

Turn 3 - I bring in the Army to help with Calakmul's defense. Unfortunately the road connecting Calakmul to the rest of the city won't finish until next turn so I can't fortify the army or bring in catapult support.

IBT - Our army defends against the 2 NuMercs, though it takes quite a bit of damage. The hoplites retreat and the warrior heads for Palenque (which is where the hoplites seem to be heading as well).
Chichen:Worker->Worker.
We get an ACav.
Lagartero:walls->spearman.

Turn 4 - I move the spearman from Palenque onto the hill and replace it with a Jav. Hopefully we'll get a slave.

IBT - The Carthaginian warrior retreats and carthage drops off 2 more warriors N. of Calakmul.
The Hoplites retreat as well.
The Incans are building Sun Tzu's.

Turn 5 - Our Acav takes out the carthaginian warrior but sustains heavy damage. I cover him with another Acav. I doubt the 2 hoplites will attack him. Hopefully they'll try to take calakmul with the Jav Army. I add to calakmul's defense by adding a spearman from Lazpa and cover the ivory with a warrior from quiriqua. Gotta love tightly packed cities.

IBT - The two warriors suicide themselves on our Jav. Army, netting us 2 workers. The Hoplites head for undefended Lagartero.
Mysticism comes in and I set research to Construction as we have a lot of cities that will be able to grow soon.
Chichen:worker->worker.

Turn 6 - I shuffle a lot of units around to prevent the Greek Hoplites from getting onto pillageable tiles save one next to our army (who can take them out with catapult support). Our catapult takes an hp off of one of the Greek Hoplites.

IBT - The carthaginian warrior suicides himself on the Army. One Greek Hoplites goes exactly where I expected him too, while the injured one tries to go to the one jungle tile out of our territory.
Carthage also drops off 1 more worker and 1 NuMerc.
The Greeks are building Knights Templar so we can expect some knights pretty soon. Not good.

Turn 7 - Our catapult successfully injures the greek hoplite.
Our 4/4 Jav. kills the greek cav, losing 3 hp. This allows our Acav to kill the other hoplite before he eaves our territory. It loses 2 hp and promotes.

IBT - The NuMerc and warrior suicide themselves on our army, getting us 1 slave. The Greeks drop off leader fodder (a vet archer) N. of Calakmul.
Chichen:worker->worker.
Palenque:catapult->Jav.
Tikal:Granary->worker(it can be a worker farm and chichen can go back to producing units.
Yaxchilan:Jav.->Jav.
Carthage completes Sun Tzu's

Turn 8 - We need infrastructure and bigger cities soon. Our large army is starting to slow down our research. I am forced to lower science to 40% Libraries might be the way to go, though marketplaces would be helpful as well. We still don't have an FP. Do we still want to put it in Lagartero (it can't make even make 2 spt yet)?
Our catapult injures the archer. The newly elite Acav goes in for the kill but gets no leader, though it is not scratched.

IBT - This is a bad turn in terms of AI landings. In the south, the Incans drop off a relatively harmless warrior. In the North, The Carthaginians drop off a warrior as well as an MDI. The Greeks also drop off some units, including a hoplite and 2 injured horses(they are 2/5 hp, and one has an asterix, indicating that the Greeks have an army). Hopefully the horses will attack this turn and not head to heal in the jungle.
Tikal produces another ACav.
Delphi has completed Knights Templar

Turn 9 - Our catapult injures the MDI but our new one can't make it to the front in time. Our Vet Acav in the south takes care of the Incan warrior, losing 3 hp but promoting. Our injured elite ACav retreats from the MDI, inflicting 1 hp of damage. Our Veteran Acav finishes him off, taking 1 hp of damage. Having no attackers left within range, I use the army to take out the warrior, who takes off five hp(!) before dying. At least we got a complimentary worker. I put 2 spearmen in Calakmul just in case the Horsemen do attack and weaken the army enough to bring up another defender. Actually, I decide to take a chance and attack the hoplite with the 8/13 army. It succeeds and promotes, but only has 4 hp now. Now there are two 2/5 horsemen left. An Elite warrior takes care of one and the other is left as I have absolutely no more attackers. Hopefully he will attack our spearmen rather than heal. Just in case, I advance a Jav. from Palenque to take care of him.
I irrigate one of Chichen's cows so that, next turn, Tikal can use it and become a 2-turn worker factory, freeing up Chichen to produce troops. Actually, we could set it up so that both are worker factories, but this may be excessive.

IBT - As I thought, the horseman moves south to try to heal, right into my trap.
Greece drops off an archer N. of Calakmul. I don't think the stream of units will ever end.
Chichen:worker->worker I put it on a worker for now, but we can put it on troops any time we want. If you want to continue the worker farm, swap a regular grassland for a mined one with any of the 1st ring cities and irrigate the other cow to make 5 fpt.
Tikal:worker->worker. It is now set up to be a permanent 2-turn worker farm.

Turn 10 - Our Jav thrower retreats the Elite* Greek Horseman trying to heal. Our catapults then go 1 for 2 in bombarding the greek archer. Our 4/5 AC kills the horseman, going elite in the process (4/6). I left 4 workers unmoved for the next player. The best thing to do would be to use 3 to irrigate the cow this turn. The other can begin work on mining the roaded grassland next to it. Chichen will only produce 4 shields that turn, but next turn, you'll have 8 workers in the area (the 4 from last turn and 4 that I already used to mine) that can mine roaded grasslands, bringing Chichen's shield count up to 6 and allowing it to complete the worker on time. Our biggest problem right now is commerce. We have too many troops. Perhaps building the Forbidden Palace is the best thing that we could do right now, followed by researching Currency and building tons of marketplaces.

After commerce, our biggest problem is finding a way to conduct an offensive. We have no horses and no iron and therefore very few offensive troops. Horses are a non-perishable resource, thus we'll never have them if we don't conquer some. Hopefully, Iron will move into our territory, which will allow us to conquer some horses. For now, we'll have to rely on our army and ACavs. If we get another army (which we should very soon), I would use it for ACavs, but only fill it with 1 unit. That way, we'll be able to use it for offensives on another continent. A few suicide Curraghs to explore our enemies' continents wouldn't be a bad idea. That way, we can find where we can get some iron/horses (hopefully on weakly defended colonies.

Edit: As for the map, I would actually mine the tile SouthEast of the cow tile. Otherwise, Chichen won't make 6 spt on the second turn as it'll take the 3 workers 1 full turn to make it to the X that I marked.

Looks like I am up. I will play this today or tomorrow.

Preturn: I read the previous turns - a lot to absorb all at once.
We have an Elite warrior next to the injured archer. I decide to risk him on attack to leader fish but lose. An auspicious start. (not).

So we are not building the FP. It was hard to tell. I do agree we should. Palenque has the most corrupt shields so it wins. We can always switch.

As mentioned unit support is going to be a major problem. We are building more units and I am fearful that we will have to drop research too low. I think I will switch to the Heroic Epic in Copan. I may also disband warriors - go for good units rather than lots of them. That will be after I get a feel for the attack strength though and we build a few more units. No point in saving money if it costs a town.

I use the workers to irrigate the cow and go to 2 food and 5 shields in Chichen.

Maybe another town is called for - need to look into this.

Early: Landings are extremely light compared to the records I read previously. I do disband some warriors.

Mid: Haven't had to use the army other than the first turn or so. Why is it so quiet?
A Jav dies from disease.

Late: We may have some luck. The horses appear to be on a small island that we can take out.


Notes:
We are running 20% Lux for Palenque to get the FP faster (4 shields it is 42 turns). We may of course get a leader. I got several elite victories but no leader. Maybe trying to build it is silly, but a pillaging army might be worth waiting some turns for the FP. A tough call.

I suspect the AI is fighting hard. The army got to snooze this turn.

I have some scientists and did disband some units. The only other losses was the disease in Jungle and the first Elite Warrior.

Here is the picture of the horses. I think this is possible to take when we get Map Making:

Looks like Slinger played, then T_McC, Yom, & Greebley (welcome back!) so Slinger I'm up.

Slinger
T_McC
Yom
Greebley
Handy is Up

Our economy could perk up once we get all of our tiles improved. Once we have Aqueducts built we can merge some of our native workers back into our cities and get by with a predominantly slave workforce.

I assume we are still chugging away at Construction? Maybe Monarchy next?

We started building the FP in Lagartero upon founding, but when the city couldn't pull > 2 spt in our GA it was decided to wait for a leader. Building it somewhere else in the first ring isn't a bad idea, but let's hope for a leader so we can swap the 1st ring city to a Market or something else and rush the FP in Lagartero. Lagartero is about the only city where we could build it and get tangible benefits in more than 2 cities. If we don't get a leader, we'll just let it finish wherever Greebley started it.

I'm not sure Monarchy next is a good idea. The way our economy was hurting, I would go for currency before monarchy. I was struggling to keep up research without going into the red. Monarchy will only hurt our economy before we get marketplaces.

I completely agree on the Mycenae offensive. That city needs to be ours ASAP. We can't transport our army, but 5 ACs and a few Jav throwers (defensive bombard after landing, should be a fair amount that will take the city with ease, no matter how crappy the PRNG is. 5 ACs and 3 Javs would mean 4 ships, which is doable, but by the time we get Map Making (after monarchy, maybe currency?), the Greeks may have Musketmen there.

I agree on currency first. I was purposefully not building unit on my turn which may hurt us if they start with the heavy landings again. We needed it to do this for reasonable research times.

Don't we also need 2 techs for Monarchy? I forget if we have poly.

Melancholy Mayans

Pre Turn
Where we stand
20 workers
1 warrior
10 spears
3 cats 1 javelin army
10 javelins
5 Acav
1 dinky boat

Good call on the dinky boat. AI usually won’t attack currahs with galleys. Until the barbs wound us we will be okay.

IBT
Currency versus map making is going to be a tough call. The sooner we get a pillaging army to the other continent the better. We need cash, but we can also really slow the AI down if we start a pillaging run this early in the game. There appears to be jungle with no roads where we can land safely.
Tikal – temple – cat (we are really light on cats). We pull 7spt in Tikal so we can build cats in 3 turns, wasting 1 shield. I swapped a tile with Chichen, so Tikal now has 0 extra fpt. We need an aqueduct to grow there.
Greece begins Sistine

Turn 1 330
Very nice work to create a stack of 6 workers who can road a jungle tile each turn. :D
Elite Acav offs archer. No leader.
Send 2nd MP to Copan so we can speed up the HE build.
Bondman is size 6 with 2 extra FPT. Hire a scientist to cut research 1 turn.

IBT
Chichen – temple – cat

Turn 2 310
Not much. Construction in 5 +0gpt.

Turn 3 290

IBT
Tikal – cat – walls

Turn 4 270

IBT
Carthage drops 2 knights N of Yax
Chichen – cat – jav (it’s now pop 8 and 8spt)
Carthage builds Leo’s
Turn 5 250
Jav army kills knight & gets a slave.
Elite Acav dies but redlines the knight. Jav finished him off.
Slider goes to 30/20 still get construction in 2.

IBT
Yax – temple – cat
Bonampak – temple – cat

Turn 6 230
Slider to 10/20 construction due in 1.

IBT
Construction – currency. I thought about map-making, and if I’d pop a leader I would have gone for MM for sure. We need that to plant a pillaging army if we hope to win this.
Tikal – cat – aqueduct

Turn 7 210
Since Calakmul is corrupt, I irrigated the bananas so we can grow some scientists up there.
Chichen is up to 10spt for 3 turn javelins.

IBT
Dinky is bombed by Carthage.
Carthage drops 2 knights and 1 Numidian N of Calakmul
Nearby Greece drops a hoplite and LB NE of Lagartero.

Turn 8 190
I think we’ll be okay. Carthage is trapped and must attack the Javelin army in Calakmul, which has walls.
Greece has to move or attack walled Calakmul.
Cats arrive for battle next turn. With any luck we’ll get a leader.
The javelin army offs the Numidian & gats a slave.

IBT
Very nice. The army killed both Knights and the Greek LB and produced 2 slaves.
Chichen – javelin – javelin
Greeks begin Copernicus
We get another Acav
Carthage drops MI N of Calakmul. The AI has prioritized Calakmul.

Turn 9 170
Bomb, then kill the MI & hoplite. No more Ai in our lands.
Spot a Greek musket on the other continent.
Yax is switched to 3 turn javelins and Chichen is going to 2 turn cats. We are going to need the cats since we have a lot of shoreline to protect.

IBT
Palace gets sun deck, hot tub & 5 supermodels.
Hoplite drops off next to ivory.

Turn 10
Move cats & attack units towards the hoplite. He is going to try to pillage the ivory, but you can kill him next turn before he does. Use the elite Acav N of Palenque after you bomb him.
Currency in 18 +0GPT.
Only 4 jungle left for the 6-pack worker stack to road. Two of the 4 are out of our borders.
You can join workers to the cities in the north to help the economy.
Calakmul has the food to support 2 specialists.
After Tikal completes the aqueduct, Yax can build one and Tikal can build units.
Mine over the irrigation near Lagartero.
Army is healing in Palenque.

In the words of the renowned philosophers the Brothers Gibb, we are Stayin’ Alive

Just read this. Staying alive is right. A leader would be really nice. Will try to play tonight.

Handy05a – 150BC

Preturn – Read the notes and it looks like we can mine over a cow in Chichen in the future too.
IT – Carthage drops a MI and A numi 2 SW of Lazapa and Greece lands a musket and a LB 1 SW of Lapaza. The hoplite kills our warrior instead. Chichen-Cat> Cat in 2.
[1] 130BC – Well, an ominous start. It takes all available AC’s to do the job but we get all 4 new comers losing an AC and the hoplite is still there. Continue jungle clearing. Swap tax to science to get currency in 15 at –2gpt.
IT – No drop offs. Yax-Jav> Aque. Carthage starts Sistenes. Hoplite pillages an ivory.
[2] 110BC – Bomb the hoplite to 1hp, kill with E AC, no leader. Bonapak jungle cleares and shows BG. Now it is currency in 16 at –1gpt.
IT – A knight is dropped off near Lazapa. Chichen builds another cat.
[3] 90BC – Bomb and kill with E AC, no leader. 3 worker merges and it’s currency in 11 at 0gpt.
IT – An MI drops N Cakalmul. Bonapak-Cat>Jav. Man we need better units somehow. This won’t last.
[4] 70BC – Kill with E AC, no leader. Curraugh takes an hp damage while touring.
IT – 2 Knights drop 1 SW of Calakmul. Chichen-Cat>Cat, Tikal-Aque>Jav
[5] 50BC – We lose an E AC taking off 1hp. Kill 2nd knight 6-2 and then get a promo with a vet losing one hp. Currency in 13 at –1gpt.
IT – See the Greeks and Inca have a naval battle. Carthage drops a Numi and an MI N of Cakamul.
[6] 30BC – The army takes it’s time collecting a slave from 1 hp numi and then E AC kills 1 hp MI, no leader. Currency in 8 at 0gpt. Chichen goes to colluseum prebuild in 11 for a market.
IT – Greeks complete Copernicus. Carthage favors the numi, MI combo again, Greeks drop a LB. Macchu Pichu is a greek town now.
[7] 10BC – Dispatch them all, no losses and no leaders off of 2 tries. Currency in 7 at 0gpt.
IT – Heroic Epic is in Copan>Aque. Greeks try a LB/Musket Combo near Cakamul.
[8] 10AD – 7 straight and true cat shots red-iline the intruders and a vet and E AC kill them. No leader. Do some boat bombing. Currency in 5 at –1gpt with 12 in the bank. Tikal goes to prebuild too.
IT – Greeks complete Sistenes and we have trouble when Carthage does a change up and lands a numi,LB and MI north of Yax in a forest.
[9] 30AD – I have 4 AC’s and the army to deal with this. No cat support. Gotta go with Army on Numi at defense 3. Well, that wasn’t so bad. Got an elite out of it no losses. Currency in 4 at 0gpt.
IT – LB,Musket SW of Yax this time. Bonapak-Jav>Aque.
[10] 50AD – Kill both, no leader.

The jungles in our boundaries are clear and improved. Don’t know what to do with all the extra workers now. I have a group going up to redo the ivory tile. One worker is ready to merge into Yax when aque completes next turn. I’m sure next leader can do some thing with them. I even considered disbanding for shields. I really don’t know what we can do offensively. Perhaps when we get a leader for an AC army we can go for the horse island.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/handy05a-50ad.jpg

Slinger
T_McC is up
Yom
Greebley
Handy

We need map making to get off this island. We also need an Acav army to go begin the pillaging or else we'll be overrun by knights.

Leaders are far and few between. I had 9 leader chances and was really hoping.
@Handy - Is the candle lit?

Leaders are far and few between. I had 9 leader chances and was really hoping.
@Handy - Is the candle lit?

Yeah - :lol:

HNDY05a - Send me an Angelou!

50 AD (0)
Currency in 3 and we have enough cash to cover it. Create another couple of Scientists and knock it down to 2 turns until Currency.

We are 11 units over our support limits. Workers will be merged post-Aqueducts. We have a very respectable 13 slaves.

IT - Nothing dropped.

70 AD (1)
Nothing completes.

IT - Nothing dropped. Currency comes in and I head for CoL.

90 AD (2)
Nothing completes. Several pre-builds are swapped to Markets.

IT - Carthage drops off 3 NuMercs, 2 Warriors and an MDI next to Chichen.

110 AD (3)
Mediocre bombardment round. I attack nothing, preferring to let them attack the grand stack I have assembled in Chichen. (Only 1 unit has an attack higher than 2.)

IT - Net result: 5 dead Carthaginians, 4 new slaves, 1 pillaged square. Carthage lands another NuMerc and Warrior to throw on the body pile.

130 AD (4)
Three leader shots vs. red-lined units: Patience is a virtue. :)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/HNDY05a_Help.JPG

Waste 21 shields on Market in Palenque and rush the FP in Lagartero. Corruption was 42/88. We'll see how much that improves.

IT - Nothing lands.

150 AD (5)
FP and two Markets complete. Corruption only drops to 30/88. But that's still another 12 gold. Allows me to turn science up to 30%.

Also got to watch the Greeks and Incas fighting.

170 AD (6)
Nothing much happens.

IT - Couple of Carthaginian Knights dropped off.

190 AD (7)
Bong Knights and ... no leader. CONSARNIT!

Did you know you could change specialists from the F1 screen? I didn't.

IT - Curragh gets sunk. CoL comes in, I pick Philosophy in 4. We can run a surplus and go after a more expensive tech after another couple of Courts or Markets complete.

210 AD (8)
Don't know what happened.

IT - The Carthaginian Diversity Commission drops by for a visit. One LB, one NuMerc, one Knight, one MDI, one Musket. I don't think that's what they meant when they said "combined arms".

230 AD (9)
Another sucktacular round of Catapults. We'll let them attack the Army with Cat support.

IT - Three dead Carthaginians, one new slave. Two run away to give me shots at a leader. Two more units landed in the south.

250 AD (10)
Two redlined units: two wins but no leaders.

Final Notes:
The Carthaginian invasions are coming in our West, in the triangle defined by Copan, Chichen, and Bonampak. Might be worth migrating another couple of Cats down here. We can be attacked/pillaged on the IT, but there are way too many units in Copan to fall.

I think we can merge a worker into Bonampak, but wait until the growth from 6 --> 7 occurs. We save 40 food that way. Same deal in Lagartero.

Be very careful on your 2nd IT. We can probably make a lot more money on the last turn of Philosophy research.

There is not a lot of MM to do, most of our cities are using all the land tiles in their radius. Courts are good builds, and we'll eventually need Libraries. I did not build a single troop on my turns, and I think we can continue the infra push for another 10. I would be tempted to research MM next, anticipating a leader for an 18-HP AC army. We should have enough cash to push deficit research for a couple of techs.

I'm not at all sure how we win this. We're bound to see some Cavs soon.

I'm not at all sure how we win this.

About the only chance I see is to somehow land a pillaging army overseas, get the horses, and hang onto the hope we have saltpeter on our island. No Salt, we are in deep doo-doo.

Of course we'll need some boats to land an army, and we'll need to survive the IBT when we land. :D

Slinger
T_McC
Yom is UP
Greebley
Handy

Lurking...

Why don't you try to even out the Incans/Greek land. What I mean is the Greeks have more land right now. Do everything in your power to take out a few greek cities and hope that inca resettles there. Do the same with the other civs and eventually, you can start picking them apart.

I got it.

@Locomotive: It's not that simple. We don't have the power to take ANY Greek cities, much less try to even the balance between them and the Inca. Our best attackers are AC and they don't stand a chance against fortified muskets in Cities.

@T_McC: Why did you opt for an FP over an army? I'm not sure how we are going to win this, but an AC army to take the horse city would have been tempting. Do we have enough galleys to make a landing yet? Without Horses and some luck with saltpeter, I'm not sure how we're going to win this short of using Guerillas.

Uhh ... we don't have any Galleys since we don't have MM yet.

I took the FP because we'll get another leader before we can research Map Making, and it bumped our economy by 25%. I think our economy is as big a problem as the lack of resources. [Problem with Mayans: Only 1 cheap building]

Uhh ... we don't have any Galleys since we don't have MM yet.

I took the FP because we'll get another leader before we can research Map Making, and it bumped our economy by 25%. I think our economy is as big a problem as the lack of resources. [Problem with Mayans: Only 1 cheap building]

Yeah, that's the problem. Everything we need we don't have. Army... galleys... tanks... :)

I kinda thought you might research MM next. Hard to prioritize when we need desperately need everything. :lol:

:( Please Skip me. I'm sorry for the extremely long delay, but between the Olympics, Summer Work, my New Job, and my parents restricting my internet time, I really couldn't find any time to play this.

Slinger
T_McC
Yom - needs a skip
Greebley is UP
Handy

Okie dokie. I will be able to start this tomorrow.

I will try for a cross-game deal and see if I can buy a tank from Zwingli's game. It may cost us dear though....

Early: Some landings. We don't have enough Cats, so I poor RNG loses us a few units.
We get philosophy (why were we researching that??) and start map making(7 turns which I work down to 5 turns)

Mid: Learn Map Making and start Polytheism

Late: Huge landing in 330 AD - 3 longbow, 2 MDI, 1 knight, 3 muskets all on one square. Dealing with this stack is very costly in terms of units.

Notes:
I gained several slaves on my turn and merged in native workers (especially to push towns over size 6). I also build more catapults.

I had horrible luck with our Ancient cavs and lost several battles with the odds on our side. It was very nasty. The Javs in general did as well with fewer HP and 1 less attack value.

We have:
2 workers, 10 spearmen, 13 Cats, 1 army, 12 Jav (3 in army), 4 Ancient Cav.

Slinger
T_McC
Yom
Greebley
Handy is UP

On the bright side, at least we can build ferry boats now. Next leader will atempt a go for broke amphibious landing.

We are going after the horses right?

We are going after the horses right?

I'd pillage before going for horses. I think pillaging hurts them way more than horses help us. It will reduce both the amount and strength of their landings, as well as slow the tech pace.

Just my $.02, and I can be over-ruled.

I don't think we can pillage without another army to do so. We have nothing over defense 2. I think the timing of when we get the leader should determine which to go for first. If we have no leader then go for the horses.

It might also be a good idea to build a twelth town. We will want 3 armies at some point so we can get pentagon. Find some spot that has a lot of unclaimed coast and build a fishing village.

Firstly, agree that pillaging the Greek/Incan continent will do us more good than getting Horses. I think we can land on a Hill adjacent to the Horse city, so we may not need an army to raze/replace although it would make things much easier. (Actually, the best thing we could do is to pillage the Carthaginians, if we could find them. :rolleyes: )

Like I said in my turnlog, we were researching Philosophy because we just about busted and had to generate some cash for deficit research. We were going to get Philosophy in 4 turns regardless, but this way we got MM and Philosophy at least 2 turns earlier than by researching MM first. We should also now have larger cities and more Markets and Courts to aid the research of the more expensive techs.

It sounds like we should be heading for Monarchy (I think Poly is the last required tech). Unfortunately I think we also have to get Lit. In the MA maybe we should prioritize Invention? Longbows are a cheap upgrade from Javs and make a decent attack force to hide under an Army. Plus we can more quickly reach the inevitable point where we see we don't have any saltpeter either.

I would go for monarchy and then Lit. We really need the extra MP and the food bonus so we can grow. We are also researching based largely on scientists which are not helped by libraries.

The reason for Phosophy makes sense I guess. I didn't have your post in front of me when I played, and I missed the fact (or forgot) we were researching it when I previously read it. Mostly it suprised me given our pressing need for map making and monarchy (and lit)

I got it. Playing Now.

Too Much Horse Power :(

HNDY05a 350AD
MM Chichen to get to 15 spt for 2 turn javs

IBT
Ugh. Greece lands a rather impressive stack of 1 musket, 2 knights & 3 LBs E of Calakmul. We are way out gunned.
Chichen – jav – jav
Tikal – harbor – court that’ll bump us to 10spt
Yax – galley – galley. On the off chance we last long enough to actually land a pillaging army, we’ll probably need to land 10 javs in the hopes three will survive.

Turn 1 360
Shuffle some units. We’ll likely lose Calakmul.

IBT
Greeks take Calakmul

Turn 2 370
Position cats for retaking Calakmul
Going to try to explore with the galley a little. Move 2, fortify, move 2 fortify, etc.

IBT
Greeks build Magellan

Turn 3 380
Chicken out & call galley home.

IBT
This is un-good. Carthage has dropped an uber-stack next to Bonampak. 2 Knights, 1 LB, 4MI, 4 Muskets and 3 Numidians. That’s 14 in all, each of which is better than our best unit. Let’s see if we can survive to the end of my turns.
Poly – monarchy

Turn 4 390

IBT
Carthage takes Bonampak.
Greece drops 2 cavalry & 1 crusader next to Copan.

Turn 5 400
Each city left has 2 defenders.
Off a couple of Numidians with cat help.

IBT
Greek cavalry takes Copan.

Turn 6 410
Kill a Greek cav, LB, Musket

IBT
Lagartero goes to Carthage, cutting off our Ivory. Massive demonstrations demand the removal of General handy. The people want to raze the Palace and build a Wal-Mart.
Greece drops off 3 more Knights

Turn 7 420
Soon this will be a OCC.

IBT
Fat lady begins to sing
Greece drops off 2 crusaders, 4 knights, 1 LB.
Mayan Angelou goes Greek.
Carthage wants peace. :lol:
Greeks raze Statue of Zeus
Next IBT we’ll lose the dyes.

Turn 8 430
Kill some Greeks

Turn 9 440
No memory of this turn


IBT
More Greek cavalry land
Yax falls


Turn 10 450
Kill some knights.

Notes:
We are toast. :(

Wow that was sudden. Not entirely unexpected... I don't think this was a winning start - especially with no resources.

I am assuming there is no point in playing further?

Sudden Indeed! :eek:

I thought we had a decent start being alone, but no Iron made for a very tough row to hoe. We even got the break of other people fighting. But eventually we just got horribly out-produced.

I'm not sure having Iron would have made much of a difference, unless our having it denied it to the Greeks or Carthage. And our isolated start wasn't that isolated. Had we shared a continent with Greece or Carthage we could have dictated where the attacks were to come, and have access to their resources. I hadn't thought that would be the downside of an isolated start, but it was.

If/when we do this again, I might question the value of Agricultural on a small map. We got our capital an extra food, but no other cities could be built to take advantage of the trait in Despotism. I think Commercial would be more useful to us.

Oh well, we still have the Sumerians!

As I know from my youthful days in New Orleans as a Saints fan, there's always next year. :lol:

Anybody up for HNDY05c? Tiny maps don't take too long, so I'm game to try again. Maybe seafaring to get to MM and a pillaging army quicker?

Wow that was sudden. Not entirely unexpected... I don't think this was a winning start - especially with no resources.

I am assuming there is no point in playing further?

Not really. I played a few more turns last night as a OCC. Lasted several turns because of the army & the cats. But there were cavs & knights landing on each turn. Only a matter of time...

Taps is being played then I presume. On to conquering Russia and hoping to avoid the Zulu.

Valiant effort there, guys. :hatsoff:

I am fine with going with c. Did we have another ok start from before that we didnt try yet?

[Edit: Little activity in either thread. You all must be taking the weekend off. Probably all off grumphing at people (grump, grump). ]

it was a valiant attempt to even try it and I am looking forward to your next aws - good luck