Welcome to the presidential hut

President : DaveShack
Vice President : Chieftess

Space reserved for additional information

Post reserved for additional information

Honored citizens,

Whereas the constitutional article which would have defined how deputies are chosen, possibly including how the Vice President is chosen, was not ratified,

Whereas the Vice President was chosen to be the runner-up of the Presidential election in some previous demogames,

Whereas the Vice President was chosen by the President and appointed to the office in some other previous demogames,

Given the most logical and common-sense interpretations of the rules indicate that the Vice President should be chosen by one of the aforementioned traditions.

Executive Order: Chieftess is appointed Vice President for DG5 term 1. Since she is also the runner-up in the election, it follows that regardless of which method of selecting a VP is used, the same person would be selected.

Note: Executive Orders are not laws and should not be construed as such. They are subject to the will of the people, the same as instructions from any other government entity. Citizen comment on whether this is a practice which should be continued is welcome :D

Can't wait to get this thing underway! BTW, if you can, post an advanced notice of when the turnchats will be for the next week (and post them on every Saturday, too).

Congratulations on your victory, Dave! :goodjob:

As for your executive order, I have no problem with its enforcement provided that this appointed deputy position does not supercede Constitutionally recognized members in an implied Chain of Command. At this point, that would mean that the 6 Ministers should be chosen as DP before the Vice President.

And just to keep up appearances it may not be a bad idea for the President to request a Judicial review on possible dilemmas that may stem from his decision, such as the CoC. I know that this will sometimes be hard to predict, but let's do what we can to keep things on the level while we navigate through these somewhat lawless times. In closing, I would like to congratulate you both for a well-fought race and have every faith that our nation is in good hands.

Long live Japanatica!

Respectfully,

Donovan Zoi
Minister of Trade

Mr. President, congratulations on a well deserved victory.

As we have had a flurry of activity in the Judicial thread today, I was hoping if I, as Chief Justice, could ask a favor of your Office. That favor would be for you not to edit post #3 (DG5T1-EO1) in any way, until some of these matters are resolved. Thank you for your time and again, congrats.

CJ Cyc
:hammer:

This is to announce a job opening for a speechwriter.

Duties of this position would be to help with editing boring drafts of presidential comments into fancy, RPG style language. This is an administrative position so there is no restriction on holders of elected offices.

Mr President, well won, and my unwavering support is evident in my motto, which should be the motto of Japanatica. :)

Honorable President,

Hereby I would like to apply for the position of speechwriting.

Daveshack, please post your next turnchat instruction thread. (atleast before the natives get restless).

I hope that I can make it. My vacation is actually letting me use the computer alot.

Turnchat instruction thread, for the chat starting at 4000BC.

This is not a discussion thread. The only posts allowed here are instructions by government members or their legally designated representatives only!

Thanks, Dave! :D

Turnchat Instruction Thread: 4000BC Tuesday 8/2, 2200MST(GMT-7), 0100 EDT, 0500GMT

Mr. President. I believe I've got it straight now. You're holding the Chat at 10pm Arizona time (as they don't practice Daylight Savings), so this would make it 10pm PDT (my time). It would also make it 1am (the morning of) 8/4 on the East coast USA. The problem I see now is that if you're holding the Chat on Tuesday 8/2, we're going to have to wait a couple of years, no? Tomorrow is Tuesday 8/3. At least on my calendar.

Or are you just testing us again? :undecide:

I was confused because the dates were not given with each time. I wasnt sure if the chat actually happened at 00:00 today and i missed it or what.

Turnchat Instruction Thread: 4000BC Tuesday 8/2, 2200MST(GMT-7), 0100 EDT, 0500GMT

Mr. President. I believe I've got it straight now. You're holding the Chat at 10pm Arizona time (as they don't practice Daylight Savings), so this would make it 10pm PDT (my time). It would also make it 1am (the morning of) 8/4 on the East coast USA. The problem I see now is that if you're holding the Chat on Tuesday 8/2, we're going to have to wait a couple of years, no? Tomorrow is Tuesday 8/3. At least on my calendar.

Or are you just testing us again? :undecide:

Oh my gosh! gotta get on the chatroom and make sure the Europeans didn't show up a day early! :eek:

thanks for pointing it out!

Hey, I was just tryin' to help.

Good luck on your 2nd turnchat! (Just don't make any goofy mistakes. ;)).

Let the Moonlight Chats Begin!

*sings "Chatting in the moon-light!"* (to the tune of "dancing in the moonlight - assuming those are the correct lyrics...)

I'll try and make it though 1 am turnchats will be a problem in a few weeks
EDIT
I'm sorry I won't be making it I have to work tommorow and I'm tired already hopefully I will be able to participate on a night when I don't have a busy day coming up. :(

Good luck on your 2nd turnchat! (Just don't make any goofy mistakes. ;)).

Let the Moonlight Chats Begin!

*sings "Chatting in the moon-light!"* (to the tune of "dancing in the moonlight - assuming those are the correct lyrics...)
Ohh no you dont CT, Dont start singing "On Moonlight Bay" now :p

Don't worry, I've never heard of that one. ;)
(...yet)

I came here to complain about the fact that we have not seen a Turn Chat Summary yet, Mr. President. T/C Summaries are needed by everyone, newbs and vets alike. Please discontinue this practice of neglecting your constituency. We need a T/C Summary after each chat. If you're too tired to write them after the Chat, don't hold them so late. :crazyeye:

I agree with Cyc, all formalities and procedures should be in order, especially in the running of Japanaticas highest office.

Chieftess was a little quick on the lock button so I couldn't post a turnchat summary in the instruction thread. Maybe it would be better to do it here :)

Turnchat 1, 4000BC.

The chat started promptly at the scheduled time, and immediately turned into a discussion on the legality of accepting "changed vote" posts from citizens in a non-public poll. Domestic Leader Noldodan wanted to accept a vote change in the city placement poll, and then break the resulting tie in favor of a move to the East. The poll had a clear winner of moving to the North, except for the attempted changed vote. After a significant discussion, the President was prepared to declare the instruction invalid and follow the evident will of the people embodied in the poll results. Noldodan agreed at that point to follow the poll, and that attempting to use the vote change was not reasonable.

The following 10 turns passed fairly quickly, and exactly according to script. We moved the settler North and started mining the start square. Our capitol [forgot how to spell it, edit this :blush: ] was founded in 3950 BC and grew to population 2 very quickly. We produced a warrior which started exploring to the South.

At the end of the scheduled 10 turns, we had a discussion about continuing play. Chief Justice Cyc led the support for stopping at 10, while several people wanted to press on until a settler was produced, or another significant event occurred. The President then checked WOTP in the forums and found that discussion on the matter [edit a link in here] had a slight but noticeable concensus to press on to 15 turns. The decision was made to set a hard stop at 15 turns, or when something significant enough to generate forum discussion appeared.

Two additional turns were then played. Turn 11 revealed gems in the mountains to the south, and calls to stop play were renewed. The available information didn't look like enough to go on for city planning, and we knew that the IBT would include cultural expansion to reveal more of the north. Turn 12 was played, revealing 3 more gems (trade goods!!) and a river to the south, and that the floodplain extends to the east. Play then stopped prior to hitting enter for turn 12, so that if the citizens want to change production in the capitol to a settler that can be done without delay.

I agree with the Presidential decision with going beyond turn 10, as nothing happened anyways, but we got more qualified data to discuss, beyond wild guesswork.
The President did, given the circumstances, the right decision. We should maybe also reconsider following the 10 turn rule slavically, as there is no set rule on turns for a term, sometimes nothing significant happens in 18 turns, and sometimes a lot happen in 4 turns.

I wish for the Presidenent and other Dignantarties of the Presidency to partisipate and cast there vote in the Dealing with Demands from other nations - Poll (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=96098) thread :).

Thanks,
CivGeneral

Honorable President Daveshack and VP Chieftess

I am about to lauch the Ringi Reform of Japanatica, and the first target is the city localization and development. As the Presidency, you are interested in city improvements that fit into the long term strategy of actually executing the policies proposed for Japanatica.

Please investigate the City Proposal Thread and assess the printed map, marcation of future city borders, the tile production by shield, gold food and gold. All of these is the are critical aspect for your Presidential needs.

So whenever a proposed city comes into the view on that thread, grade it from 0-5 based on how good the city location is. Also grade the city for its future strategic resource and luxury resources, as well as trade roads to other Civs and so on.
When complete, write 3-5 lines on the point selection, and submit it with the Domestic Affairs Ministry. If the City alternative is approved and selected for polling, you are free to, but not obliged, to write in the city proposal thread in order to influence the outcome. I have posted similar posts in the other Departments.

Screenshot at end of turn 4, 3300 BC.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DG5_BC3300_South.jpg

turn 5 save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DG5_BC3200_Turn5.SAV)

Turn 6 save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DG5_BC3150_Turn6.SAV)

North area:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DG5_BC3150_northarea.jpg

South area:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DG5_BC3150_southarea.jpg

Turnchat summary:

Chat summary, 3450BC - 3150BC.

We started out with the governor instructions on the verge of being eliminated from consideration by the judicial review. There are no domestic instructions on the area normally covered by the governor. DP decision is to go ahead with switching to settler. On recommendation from the chat attendees (and common sense :p) MM'd to give settler in 6.

Exploration to the S and SW shows that the mountain range is almost certainly coastal, and keeps going for a ways. There are horses on a hill to the SW, and the total gem count is now up to 5.

Capitol growth to 3 results in unhappieness. Need to consider a temple or 10% lux to avoid impact to growth. Used a scientist.

The chat stopped on production of the settler. We need a good decisive settlement lcoation choice for the next TC!

I wish for the President and there dignantaries to cast there votes and partisipate in the Babylon Trade (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=96642) thread :).

Thanks,
CivGeneral

Mr President.

May I request that you fly our nation's flag on your palace ?
The Flag: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DG5_RM_warflag.jpg

You know, with the chats in the morning now, maybe we should call them, "The Sunrise Chats", or "The Breakfast Chats".

Well, Japan is "The Land of the Rising Sun."

So looking at our start position, I'd say the Sun rises in the West and sets in the East.

But it'd look the same to us since in-game we're in the Southern Hemisphere. Albiet barely.

And I'll abstain from any "Calender establishment based on solar positioning" questions until we have discovered Mathematics.

Good point SD3. Speaking of morning chat's, :rolleyes: isn't our next chat tomorrow morning? Where the heck is our Turn Chat Instruction (TCI) thread? Shouldn't the TCIs go up immediately after a chat? How are our Leaders supposed to post Instruction? How are we supposed to judge the content of their Instruction? Isn't this a little bit sneaky, Mr. President?

Good point SD3. Speaking of morning chat's, :rolleyes: isn't our next chat tomorrow morning? Where the heck is our Turn Chat Instruction (TCI) thread? Shouldn't the TCIs go up immediately after a chat? How are our Leaders supposed to post Instruction? How are we supposed to judge the content of their Instruction? Isn't this a little bit sneaky, Mr. President?Don't worry Cyc;
it's here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=96606). And it has been there for at least 24 hours already.

That's really strange. I've been looking for it too. Oh well, sorry Mr. president.

I'm a bit lost with SD3's comment about the southern hemisphere. The sun rises in the east and sets in the west for us here too...?

I know it does. What I mean is that if, in the Civ World, the sun rises from West to East, then it would look no different to our in-game counterparts than the Real Life Northern Hemisphere. It would look quite different from the RL Southern Hemisphere.

Then again, you are probably quite used to the sun going counter-clockwise. I'm just saying it could be all relative... or something...

Mr. President,

Can we expect a narrative recap of the turn chat?

I too am interested in a recap of the chat, and an explanation for why you felt it necessary to press on for 17 turns.

In your recap, please be sure to post all trades that happened beyond the 10-turn mark, and who authorized it. In the meantime, I will be conducting an investigation of my own.

Respectfully,

Donovan Zoi
Trade Minister

Well, Japan is "The Land of the Rising Sun."

So looking at our start position, I'd say the Sun rises in the West and sets in the East.

But it'd look the same to us since in-game we're in the Southern Hemisphere. Albiet barely.

And I'll abstain from any "Calender establishment based on solar positioning" questions until we have discovered Mathematics.

The sun rises in the west and sets in the east anywhere on earth, except the north pole, there it would just rise and set in the south :crazyeye:.

I'm not sure why DaveShack chose to go 17 turns, but I think one reason was that there were "no rules about not playing 10 turns".

So, everyone clamors for a less restrictive ruleset, and then cannot abide by an unwritten guideline for the good of the game? And then, when a few people have the nerve to put rules in place, those people are tpyically accused(by some) of bogging down the system with needless laws?

At least this game, we have a proactive legislature that is actually addressing these issues as they happen, rather than shrugging their shoulders. So I guess I'll add another one to the Hot List.

The slackers have taken over. This administration is a disgrace. When I voted for DS, I was under the impression that he had played in Demogames before. I guess I was wrong.

Where's the pre-turn save, Mr. President? Where is following the WOTP on trades? How many tribes do we have to meet before we call a end to the chat. And why, after reading the chat log, do I get the feeling you are just a vassal of Chieftess? Why do I get the feeling that just because there is a lack of rules, you are willing to bend every customary/traditional rule there is until they break? I really don't think you know what you're doing, DS. I can see why you're voting for Bush.

Where is our summary? What happened to all of the screenshots? Where are all the 5-turn saves? It seems you could be late for work to go an extra 7 turns, but you can't spend any time to do the part of your job you're responsible for. Still neglecting your constituency, eh.

Oh, and by the way, DZ where were they Instructions from the Trade Dept? Were you just writing the Prez a blank check?

You know I'm a veteran, and aware that it is not possible to please everyone all the time. I think the President's job is the hardest because it comes down to keeping the most people happy, not necessarily the most vocal. It's also critical to balance decision making so that each "faction" wins sometimes.

In the absense of instructions from a department, the President has the right, and obligation, to make decisions and play. This thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=96643) shows a clear preference for leaders who lead. Furthermore, there was growing citizen discontent with lack of progress, which was addressed by continuing.

I'm not anyone's vassal, merely willing to listen to advice. Asking for an individual's opinion is not a weakness. Had there been any serious opposition to any in-play decisions, my policy is to stop. Had there been any instruction requesting a stop, my policy is to stop when the conditions are met.

The will of the people (WOTP), a very fluid, used and abused term has been changing as a result iof a draconian turnchat regime and a lack of forum procedure, not to mention necessary information to make long term strategic decisions on. We have had the average of 4.5 turns per turnchat until this joyous event, the last turnchat, that has at least made the game interesting again. Some of the citizens are not to keen on spending their limited energy on quarreling over presentation styles and verbosities, not to mention technicalities, formalities, representation format and automated protest.

Many players got frustrated by this abd the lack of direction needed in the debates.
Fiding all these tribes, the Romans in the very last turn, Zulus en route, we were not to keen on giving yet another 20 gold for three turns of research we almost got, and the general consensus in the turnchat, and in the aftermath has raised hardly any
critical voices that we decided to continue to the production of the next settler.
As a new player, I rather much prefer to end the turnchats at a natural point in the game, not 10 as the latest or at the earliest convenience. Now the terminal point was the concluded production of the settler. I see the forums are moving away from personal attacks, hassles over procedure and formalities and in general unpleasant and taxing jittering which almost made me resign the game.

Now we see some strong influx of positive developments, the forums are buzzing with colorful maps, buzzing with strategies, the city localization debate, discussion threads have the quality I requested but some people denied for the hard work/bureaucracy.
We are also down to a filtering of options on the city localizations, so people with limited time on their hands may be presented a set of fair solutions they can vote on, without losing oversight. Thanks to the excellent work by Noldodan, Epithemius and Sir Donald III (I hope they are not attacking him as well, for "out-domesticating" or "stealing jobs", or that they force him to change signature from posting to posting), the days of flawed city-planning is over. We have extensive holistic plans that are being compared, with tilevalues and so on. People has finally enough information to make the game make sense, and thanks to the excellent work from the Judiciary, lead by Cyc, I hope we will see few legal battles wreaking havoc and fatigue on our minds.

I also see that some of the more perfidious citizens have moderated their criticisms a bit, and looked into themselves, enabling better working conditions for everyone.

So yes, me and many will agree that we had an excelelnt turnchat, President Daveshack led well all the way till turn 15, and he listened to all voices. The same people that justly asked for a recess last time, agreed on getting things done for a change the last turnchat. If there is doubt on the Will of the people on this last turnchat, we can open a thread, discuss it, and poll on how people prefer turnchats should be conducted, and not simply assume people agree on personal likes/dislikes.

And for the next turnchat, I may be very clear and vocal to continue to the point we have concluded research on iron working, which should be in around 12 turns, so that the city localization debate for the iron city may actually be resolved within Term One.
I think there is a general fatigue of procedural filibustering, that may well be the will of the people, and we may even pol that view to see what the people want there.

Now we see some strong influx of positive developments, the forums are buzzing with colorful maps, buzzing with strategies, the city localization debate, discussion threads have the quality I requested but some people denied for the hard work/bureaucracy.

Color maps is right :lol:. Less technical nitpickin and personal attacks please. If the president or anyone steps over the legal boundary, we have the three justices and the judicial review to deal with that.

Less technical nitpickin and personal attacks please. If the president or anyone steps over the legal boundary, we have the three justices and the judicial review to deal with that.

You want to see personal attacks? Read the chat log. You want to see name calling? Read the chat log. A good Leader would have reigned in all the people talking smack about actions that were approved by the people. A good Leader wouldn't let the chat attendees to continually trash talk policy decisions made by the majority of the citizens of the game. He would use his position to keep the discussion on topic and appropriate. That's just another part of the DP's responsibility. And the only reason legal boundries have not been stepped over is because one of the major driving factors of the trash talking decided to start the game before the rules could be made. If you are in doubt about whom I am speaking of, it's the same person who took control of the game from the President, and then decided the age old tradition of posting the game stats in between turns was not needed anymore because that person's agenda was more important.

Some of the citizens are not to keen on spending their limited energy on quarreling over presentation styles and verbosities, not to mention technicalities, formalities, representation format...... hassles over procedure and formalities and in general unpleasant and taxing jittering which almost made me resign the game.
I don't see how you can view this as one of you logical arguements, considering the complex and weighty presentation styles and verbosities (not to mention tecnicalities, formalities, representation format, and procedure) of the last 4 or 5 threads you've posted. ;)
So yes, me and many will agree that we had an excelelnt turnchat, President Daveshack led well all the way till turn 15, and he listened to all voices. The same people that justly asked for a recess last time, agreed on getting things done for a change the last turnchat. If there is doubt on the Will of the people on this last turnchat, we can open a thread, discuss it, and poll on how people prefer turnchats should be conducted, and not simply assume people agree on personal likes/dislikes.
1. It may have been good for you, but I was left lacking. ;) 2. The same people were not at this Turn Chat, and 3. I thought you were just posting about the fact we had too many polls already. The issue is not how to conduct chats, it's about the WOTP. The Constitution states the WOTP will be determined through polling and discussion, not in the Chat Room.

You know I'm a veteran, and aware that it is not possible to please everyone all the time.
You don't have to please everyone all the time, DS. You just have to please the majority of the citizens of Japanatica. It just so happens that the majority of Japanatica's citizens were not at the Turn Chat. THAT'S the balance you have to keep in mind. Not who's egging you on to make the next move (so you forget to post the saves ans screenshots). The main problem we're having here is with procedure and the abandonment of traditional Turn Chat customs. I'm sure you blame this derailment of standard procedure on 9/11, but hey! That was 3 years ago, Mr. President! :lol:

What I mean Cyc, is that the game now is on track. The legal system is built, mostly thanks to your excellent judicial leadership, with the help of KCC, Immortal, as well as Comnenus and Sir Donald III. The domestic department is now shaping up, and they will poll a top selection after a longer debate with maps. The Science department is actually getting results done, as the general opinion wanted to make that trade as we had monopoly, it would simply be poor gameplay not to do that. I have been pursued by some people to develop secretarial work on the babylonians, and thanks to the TC, I also have the Zulus and the Romans on the table to discuss, this means that the hostile criticism on working on other peoples departments, is not there anymore, as I got some FA issues to work on, and the departments that had longer vacations/introductory problems are now shaping up. I like to be a positive thinker, and the last turnchat removed many barriers to make this a more fun game.

I would prefer to agree in advance of turnchats on conditions for stopping the chat, and if possibble develop enough contingency plans to assure progression. As it stands,
we are still short of getting the target 100 turns by the end of the month, and I know
there will be many delays, as we are to invent iron working and so on.

We should probably develop more defined borders of WOTP, so we agree on which issues to use referendum, which general guidelines and where representation.should count.

I agree Cyc :) that I can be a bit top heavy on my writing. However, I have been trying to add some input on improving the system, not running destructive personal attack campaigns. I recognized that much of the pepper came from those that voted differently from me on two sepcific issues, and they attacked me on whom I introduced me as, they attacked me on non-game related things in general.
I agree with you in the majority of issues, but I think some more flexibility on turnchats, some more understanding of filtering options, and some more powers to the government elects would just balance the game. ;)

However, you are right Cyc, there is no need to run a longer verbal harangue on individuals for having a different policy opinion, and I must admit that I did not endorse the 20 gold for 3 turns of BW, the one-tile inland city locations and the early interruptions of turnchats I prepared for at fixed times. Still, that is small peanuts compared to other things I struggle with in this game. Yet, I think you got undeservedly resistance in the legal threads, and there is no question that we have standing side to side in many important debates, so I hope you are fine that even though we mainly agree, I hope there is room for these individual opinions. :)

The main problem we're having here is with procedure and the abandonment of traditional Turn Chat customs.

I missed the "turn 0 before hitting enter save", and you're complaining about people voicing their negative opinions on instructions. I'll admit I have not attended every turnchat of every game, if there are other customs you're worried about, of course I'm willing to hear what you have to say. :)

I missed the "turn 0 before hitting enter save", and you're complaining about people voicing their negative opinions on instructions. I'll admit I have not attended every turnchat of every game, if there are other customs you're worried about, of course I'm willing to hear what you have to say. :)
:confused: :hmm: Uh, no Mr. President. First of all, the missing of the pre-turn save was just one of the items I mentioned. Second, you're trying to reduce all this to "complaining about people voicing their negative opinions on instructions", and that's just plain wrong. People are talking about personal attacks in this thread. I can link to them if you're having difficulty following along. ;) My response to that was there was plenty of trash talk in the T/Cs and your lack of control during the last TC allowed the attendees to do exactly what the people in this thread speak of. My main complaint is the lack of traditional customs and procedures that normally take place in a Turn Chat. These customs and procedures are customs and procedures for a reason. They work and they are needed. And they don't require a hell of a lot of work. But nice try putting this problem concisely into a one line "turn-the-tables" sound bite, Mr. President.

Some of the things I've talked about:
1. Getting T/C Summaries from you is like pulling teeth.
2. Saves and Screen Shots need to be posted in real time, not 12 hours later. If you weren't trying to squeeze in as many turns as you could, you would have time to post these as the T/C progressed.
3. The WOTP concerning trades is done through discussion and polling, not on the fly transactions during the T/C.
4. It is normal to stop a T/C when we meet a new tribe. New trades are available for discussion. We can save a lot of time and gold if the Science and Trade Departments can work a deal. That's their job.
5. The person that YOU chose to replace you on turn 15 of the last T/C decided to ignore the custom of posting the "in between turn" stats because she was in a hurry. IBT stats are there for a reason.
6. The lack of control over the chat attendees as they trash talk publically approved actions in prior T/C's. The chat logs are filled with off-topic conversations. As President, I believe you could use your position to quell the constant barrage of insults aimed at other's ideas.
7. Your personal need to go beyond the customary 10 turns of a T/C. You claim the people grow restless, well that's just how the game progresses. All the mapping we have now would have eventually come up anyway. Slow and easy is the best way to handle it for the people who don't attend the Turn Chats (let's say about 90% of the citizens?). Right now you have 36 turns in 4 T/Cs. That's an average of 9 turns per chat. You have no reason to go full bore trying to get as many turns as you can just so you can reach the miracle mark of 100 turn this Term. You can make up the missing 4 turns 1 at a time throughout the rest of the month.
8. The missing pre-turn save. Just slow down, Mr. President. You're supposed to be in control of the T/C, not the attendees.

There. That's 8 procedural problems I've witnessed with the T/Cs this Term, Mr. President, and 8 that I've mentioned above. Several of them have been brought up before. Please don't try to discount these problems into 1 and then claim I'm doing the same thing because it's simply not true. I've tried to help you with some of these problems in the T/Cs I've attended, but that just didn't work out.

Do I sense a CC against the president?

*begins gathering list of grievances*

Cyc, you need to calm down, and stop attacking people. And, although I'm not going to read the whole chat log, if you want to PM me what you consider to be personal attacks, I will gladly look into it. Eyrei.

Time for me to throw in my 2 cents:

In this half of the game, the number of "important decisions" are few but quite important. A ill advised decision, whether done by Executive Fiat or by an overwhelming majority in the polls, could have disasterous consequences. (As an example, our "First Contact". If I were playing the game alone, I would have waited 3 turns for BW to complete. I would not have traded a monopoly for a Tech and 3 turns of research. I would have done so for 2 techs I was not researching.)

Now, as for this "Number of Turns" thing, in this early phase of the game, we should not go by "number of turns" but rather "important events". Such events include:

Development of Tech (which could be accounted for in advance by the Sci Minister)
Construction of something (continue the build queue)
Construction of a Settler (could be accounted for in advance by the Domestic Minister)
Exhaustion of the build queue (blame the Governor and stop, or just confer with the Gov, the DA, and the other appropriate ministers, given the needs of the time.)
Contact with another Civ
Demands made by a rival

this last two cannot really be prepared for. Sure, we could try to predict what they have and create contingencies, but additional civs introduce quite a few extra variables.

Demands could happen every day. The Foreign Minister and the First General should have a policy established, but when Iron meets Iron here, by nature of the game, only the DP can make the call here, and we are forced to trust in his/her judgement. No time to go back for WOTP here.

First contacts, however, can happen only once. If the rival makes the initial contact, there is, again, no time to go back to "The People" for judgement. However, if contact is at our initiative, then there should be some consultation. Admittedly, his Honor the President probably made the right trade (and likely did get as much as he could)... okay, what he did was the best we could do under the circumstances, save for the possible risk to National Security that Babylonian Horsemen would represent. (For all we know, they could be researching Horseback while we go with Iron. They'd lose the exchange, but... </rambling>)

Anyway, if the respective Ministries were all represented in the Chat Room and had a conference on this course of action, then the President has an out, in that he went to the People's Represenatives. Heck, this could be standard procedure for "spot judgements" such as Demands, and might even serve for all "game-stopping" events save for an act of War.

Now, the stuff we got in the way of explored territory, as well as the realization that we probably stringed as much from our neighbors as possible, makes what happened a good end for the Citizens of Japatanica. Especially with all the Citizen input therein. At this time, however, the debate is centered around the means.


Later in the game, ala "The Age of Samurai" and after, we will have a relatively stable dominion and likely contacts with as many prople as we can, and what we don't have we could likely have a formed policy for. At that time, basing chats on number of turns becomes feasible, since the only things that can disrupt the calculus are Wars and seaborne contacts.

But until then, the DP, in my opinion, can go on for as long as there is between significant, unplanned-for events, or unless he/she cannot go on further. No longer, no shorter.

And if the DP cannot go on for longer, and the next person in the CoC is "in a hurry", then the Chat should stop. Impending events (Settler in 2 turns) could be planned for and thus we would not have that many short turn chats. Because there are only 16 Civs in Vanilla.

And, yes, if we have a clear consensus as to our next 3 City Locations and Rome doesn't have anything of value, and we don't make any new contacts or get into any wars for the next 500 years (20 turns IIRC), and if the DP is willing to go on for that long, then we should keep going as long as our plans remain sound or we have viable contingencies for them.


(I will admit, though, that had I been in the chat room during the TC, and had raised questions but been satisfied, that I probably may not be writing this post. :shrug: )

Cyc, you need to calm down, and stop attacking people. And, although I'm not going to read the whole chat log, if you want to PM me what you consider to be personal attacks, I will gladly look into it. Eyrei.

I'm really sick of you telling me to calm down eyrei. I have the right to debate in these forums about how I feel our government should be run. I'm not excited, I'm not yelling. I'm iscussing. I'm also not being paranoid. But thank you for the support. You want an insult? You don't have to read the turn chat. Look at DavsShack's last post. That's an insult. Ban me if you want. I'm not going to do your work too!

If I were playing the game alone, I would have waited 3 turns for BW to complete. I would not have traded a monopoly for a Tech and 3 turns of research.
This is what I'm talking about. SD3 do you even know what the deal was? It was for 1gpt for Bronze Working. The monopoly you speak of was dealt away, unauthorized by our President way after the deal you say you wouldn't have made. Read the chat.

After having read that chatlog I am VERY glad I voted for Donsig this election cycle, as opposed to the other candidates. Should he run again I will vote for him again.

Cyc -- thanks, I honestly wanted a list which you provided. :)

Criticism is good, I don't mind a bit.

I'm really sick of you telling me to calm down eyrei. I have the right to debate in these forums about how I feel our government should be run. I'm not excited, I'm not yelling. I'm iscussing. I'm also not being paranoid. But thank you for the support. You want an insult? You don't have to read the turn chat. Look at DavsShack's last post. That's an insult. Ban me if you want. I'm not going to do your work too!




Your tone has a negative impact on the game sometimes, and that is what concerns me. The irony of the above post is pretty funny too. Try to have fun instead of getting so angry about the way the game is going. People are more likely to listen to you if you aren't berating them.

First of all, I would like to say that I agree with both Cyc, Davshack and Sir Donald III on different counts, and I think that the truth is not held by one individual, but held by different persons. I am just seeking to give this humble input to be constructive.

Chief Justice Cyc have in my opinion a great and positive impact on the DG5, and I highly applaud him taking care of the constitution, newbees like me and in general give soilid and valid counsel on many critical issues, not to mention outrageously funny :)

He wrote up 8 points directed at DS regarding turnchats, and I can say I agree with him on the following points, for keeping things recorded. consider saves and chatlogs, as well as printscreens and turnchat key figures per turn as the "blackbox" of a turnchat, if it flies bad and crashes, we got all the evidence we need to know why.

I can understand the following points Cyc wanted improved, where I agree.


"1. Getting T/C Summaries from you is like pulling teeth."
"2. Saves and Screen Shots need to be posted in real time, not 12 hours later. If you weren't trying to squeeze in as many turns as you could, you would have time to post these as the T/C progressed."
"5. The person that YOU chose to replace you on turn 15 of the last T/C decided to ignore the custom of posting the "in between turn" stats because she was in a hurry. IBT stats are there for a reason."
"8. The missing pre-turn save. Just slow down, Mr. President. You're supposed to be in control of the T/C, not the attendees."

"These points needs bo be fixed, and put inside the Lower Law as a legal procedure for turnchats, which is in fact the implementation of our policies. These foiur points needs to be in place.

However, I do not like that these very technical procedural criteria of these eight points are mixed with the personal bias on how game events and number of turns in turnchats are handled, regarding meeting a new tribe and regarding making a tech/gold/worker trade during the turnchat. This is EXACTLY why the various departments should have existing policies in dealing with foreign civilization first meetings. As a Foreign Advisor, some people do not want me to comment domestic, military, legal, cultural and scientific issues as a foreign affaris elect, but only stick to the tedious issue of war and peace. Remember from CIV1 where each advisor had a view on all these things? Now, we should agree on the length of the turnchats based on game events dictated by planning and forecasting done in the forums, and not let random events dictate the speed of the game. This means that, for example next turn we will have one settler ready, iron working will be done in 12-15 turns, we may or may not trade with the Romans, may produce a build queue matching the time it takes
to invent iron working, yes maybe even a settler to head for the closest iron.

This is what has upset people, we are spread across multiple timezones, some people get up at night, leave their jobs, forget their kids for a while and in general act as true civfanatics. However, we are not THAT fanatic to continously prematurely halt a turnchat in order to make a flawed poll on which direction to go into, in place of having a lengthy discussion/polling process on which direction to go for one tile to settle our capital, ONE SINGLE TILE.! That is an overkill, we just delayed the game a three whole days wasting time quarreling on where to go that single tile. I would much rather prefer a Presidential decision or a Domestic Advisor decision there. If we look into the amount of energy spent on the elections, in all fairness, they must count for some.

Pertaining to "The Will of the People", they are indeed tired of being polled to death, there is a cap on how many polls and discussion threads we can have at once. This is where I agreee with President Daveshack, he sensed the moods in that thread he referred to, and other places, that these successive and untimely interruptions was unwanted by a sizable amount. Having had the lower hand in all these processes, and accepted it, would say the same now, please accept that people do want to go by milestones and some predictability. If the term lasts one month, and allegedly 100 turns, let it be so, maybe even some longer turnchats allow us needed longer discussion periods. With 3 day turnchats the deadlines for submissions are very rough.
Finally, Sir Donald III, which lives up to my standard preferences at least in most discussion threads, states that we need to be flexible in allowing room for handling
either new civilization contacts or direct demands, but let external initiatives and long term developments be handled by the will of the people through polls.

I still consider this game to be part elections, part coordinations, part discussion, part polling and part turnchat. I really think we should develop a lower law for the turnchats, so that it may pass, and that it is not impossible to change if a lot of people dislike it.

In continuation , we should harmonize trade/foreign policies, with the scientific research, production queues and cultural development, so that we all reach a benchmark together, not stopping 2-3 turns before or later we reach that collective benchmark.

Wow Provolution, that was quite a response. :)

The primary triggering issue for the recent conflict is that if we blast on by trades in-game, the trade leader has nothing to do. This is a serious issue and it needs to be respected, and I have posted instructions to stop if potential trades come up and there are no posted contingencies.

In the interest of keeping the turns flowing, I will also ask the Trade Minister to try to predict what trades might come up and preauthorize certain boundaries within which we can execute the trade and continue.

If you read closely, I did post the IBT stats (year, gold, research, etc.). I wasn't going to fiddle with an old script trying to get it perfect. ;)

As for what went on IBT - nothing really. It's the early part of the game (nothing was even built).

Honorable Trade Minister,

Your objection to having the DP decide on trades in the absense of instructions is noted. Although it is a tradition that if orders are not posted the DP decides, there is a matter of honor at stake as well. Accordingly I have posted Presidential instructions to other DP's to stop if a potential trade becomes available and there are no instructions.

It would be better for the flow of the game if your office could predict some trade conditions under which it is acceptable to conduct the trade and continue, and post those instructions. We have an ongoing balancing act between ensuring all officials have the capability to perform their duties, and proceeding at a fast enough pace to keep the populace involved in the game.

Thank you,
DaveShack
President of Japanatica

Mr. President,

Thank you for your timely response that was sent to my office. For the record, since I was in the wrong for not posting instructions I have no qualms for any decisions you made within the first ten turns of the chat. Without my direction, you are indeed allowed to progress without my blessing.

After further investigation of the chat, I had determined that no major trades were made from turns 11-17 save for purchasing a worker for 30g(IIRC). However, I still find the extension of the chat needless, but that is my personal opinion. In the future, I will do my best to leave instructions that will ensure the 10-turn mark is achieved, but cannot promise more than that.

That said, please review
Ministry of Trade: Meeting Rome (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=97118), which opens discussion on possible trades with the Red-Bordered ones. ;) I will probably have to make a judgment call based on discussion, but we'll see how it goes.

Respectfully,

Donovan Zoi
Minister of Trade

If you read closely, I did post the IBT stats (year, gold, research, etc.). I wasn't going to fiddle with an old script trying to get it perfect. ;)

As for what went on IBT - nothing really. It's the early part of the game (nothing was even built).

Madame Vice President,

Now that you have answered to the lesser concern, would you care to address the charges of "trashtalking" the decisions of the public? I am ready and willing to submit my findings to eyrei as he had requested of Cyc.

Also, publicly expressing your wishes to "fire the Trade Advisor" and "Science Advisor" are unacceptable in your position(s) of leadership. We all know you are a pretty good civ player, but that is no reason to disrespect anyone in the game. Please keep this in mind.

Respectfully,

Donovan Zoi
Minister of Trade

I invite you to join a very important discussion. Please participate. :)

Furuyama Gems (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=97121)

There have been several references to meeting a hypothetical 100 turn "quota" for the 1st term. I would like to point out that this would be a theoretical maximum, if turn chats were held every 3 days and we managed to complete 10 turns per chat.

It is not, and never has been, a Presidential goal to complete a certain number of turns in a certain amount of time. My previous response when this was being discussed was that a more realistic estimate is 60 turns, and that is hardly guaranteed. We need to feel free to stop when conditions warrant, and to be prepared to run a bit over when conditions allow it.

Mr. President,

Seems as though trouble may be brewing in our capital. Please join the following discussion for your briefing.

Focus on Fanatikku: There's A Riot Goin On! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=97312)

Respectfully,

Donovan Zoi
Minister of Trade

There have been several references to meeting a hypothetical 100 turn "quota" for the 1st term. I would like to point out that this would be a theoretical maximum, if turn chats were held every 3 days and we managed to complete 10 turns per chat.

It is not, and never has been, a Presidential goal to complete a certain number of turns in a certain amount of time. My previous response when this was being discussed was that a more realistic estimate is 60 turns, and that is hardly guaranteed. We need to feel free to stop when conditions warrant, and to be prepared to run a bit over when conditions allow it.

Thank you for clarifying this, Mr. President, as I may have missed where you stated this sentiment before. Though I did not agree with your decision last night, yesterday's chat was proof that you do not wish to steamroll past Will of the People for the sake of unchecked progress. For this, I am grateful and I commend you for your balanced leadership to this point.

Respectfully,

Donovan Zoi
Trade Minister

Wow, do I really have 6 out of the last 7 posts in here? :confused: ;)

Mr. President,

Can you enlighten the good people of Japanatica as to when the next chat shall be?

Respectfully,

DZ

Yes, he posted it.
Saturday 8/28 1600 PDT 1900 EDT 2300GMT 0100CET (Sunday)

Señor Presidente, may I request that a turnchat thread be posted soon?

Señor Presidente, may I request that a turnchat thread be posted soon?

i kunkur!!

Dave,

I wish to discuss a matter of urgententsy. I was notified that my city name Shorin-Ryu is not being used. In the city registery in the citizens registery. I listed Shorin-Ryu first and then Okinawa second.

Thanks CG.

PS, I have also sent you the copy of this post in your PM box.

Dave,

I wish to discuss a matter of urgententsy. I was notified that my city name Shorin-Ryu is not being used. In the city registery in the citizens registery. I listed Shorin-Ryu first and then Okinawa second.

Thanks CG.

PS, I have also sent you the copy of this post in your PM box.

I noticed the assumption in the city naming post that you wouldn't mind, and said to myself "yeah right, just about the same chance that it will rain in Arizona today -- slim to none".

The preferred name will be used, and it's getting close to time we should appoint a headmaster so that Epimethius can be sent to the office.