:ninja:Sengoku: The code of honour :ninja:

I have been looking for a way to put some kind of competition between the players of a SG and I really liked the "Sengoku: The sword of the shogun" scenario so I came up with the following idea. The rules are very binding and unusual so make sure you read them carefully before signing up.

World: Random
Difficulty level: Monarch.
Civilisation: Oda
Number of daimyos per civ: 5
Size: 60x170 to have a Japan-like continent.
Landmass: Pangaea
Water coverage: 60%
Climate: Normal
Temperature: Warm
Age: 4 Billion

Barbarians: Restless
Patch: C3C 1.22
Victory conditions:
Domination (35%)
Conquest
Diplomatic

Players:
Daimyo Oda Keich
Daimyo Oda Detlef Richter
Daimyo Oda fbouthil
Daimyo Oda bed_head7
Daimyo Oda Scoutsout

Rooster order will be random unless requested. My position has been determined at random.

10 turns every players (except 20 for the first turn of the first player).
24h got it. 2 days to play time for daimyo, 3 for ghost, as they may have to ask permissions in the middle of their turns.

Rules
Exploits are permitted/prohibited as per GOTM. See GOTM rules for details.

Standard rules:
1) Worker automation of any kind is prohibited.
2) No worker purchases for the first 50 turns of the game.
3) Declaring war / demanding leave solely for the purpose of getting out of trade deals.
4) Even if not covered under exploits listed, please try not to use tactics that take advantage of holes in the game design.
5) Our trading reputation is golden - please respect it.
6) Complete your turn. It is frustrating to get a 1/2 completed turn.

Code of honour:
1) Player daimyo. Our civ starts with 5 daimyos, one for each player and named accordingly. The players can move and attack using their own daimyo. You can ask another player to move your daimyo where you want to. The daimyo of the other players should be moved where asked or fortified otherwise.
2) Enemy daimyo. An enemy daimyo must die with honour by the hand of the current player's daimyo. No other unit of our nationality can attack an enemy daimyo, but artillery can (and should) be used to weaken them. You can also assassinate an enemy daimyo with units having hidden nationality.
3) Ghost. If your daimyo dies, he becomes a ghost. He can "possess" another player's daimyo (move and attack using that daimyo) if that other player gives him permission. The other player can include any restrictions he wants. A ghost can only possess one daimyo at a time and cannot change in the middle of his turns.
4) Daimyo upgrade. If the daimyo of the next player is in a town with a barrack, he must be upgraded before your last turn so that the next player can move its upgraded daimyo on your last turn (his turn 0).

Titles:
Titles will be given to provide some competition between players.
Daimyo Hunter: The daimyo who kills the most enemy daimyos personally.
Golden Katana: The daimyo who kills the most units personally.
Ninja master: The player who assassinate the most enemy daimyos.
War generals: All daimyos who create military leaders personally.

I will discern the titles after each round of the rooster but the first round will not count as the first player would get too much of a head start on the Golden Katana. Daimyos are also more fragile than they look like before they get at least one upgrade so it will also serve as an incentive to not risk it early in the game. Any combat implicating a daimyo must be written in details in your logs.

The scenario is attached if you are curious. I made the following mods:
Daimyos do not need support anymore.
Upgrade cost of daimyos cut in half.
Research cost increased by 25%.
Technology tree modified to get ronin faster (I never used them otherwise) and diplomatic finesse later (to slow down the possibility of a diplomatic victory).

Starting position:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Fbo1_Jan_1450AD.JPG

Sounds interesting, especially the competition and because I have generally been too afraid to use my daimyo. It doesn't look like there has been a lot of interest, maybe it has just been overlooked. But if we can get a few more, I will play.

I have too many sg's right now to play, but suggestions:
AI strat defend/explore - so they do something other than sit around on their butts, but won't throw themselves into heavy combat. And give them 5 dyamos.

And a addendum to your rules: At the end of your turns, if not in a town, you can designate where your king should go.

Sounds very interesting, sign me in.

I prefer Monarch (because i have never played that variant) but Emperor is also ok for me.

I would rather go for Monarch also. The barbs in this scenario are nasty, and even with the Monarch bonus I imagine we will lose more than a couple Ashigaru.

bed_head7 and Detlef Richter, you are in!

So level will be Monarch. I will integrate Kiech's suggestions. 5 daimyos for every civ. You can ask the next player where to move your daimyo, but no attacks along the way. If you disagree, I will change it back.

Sounds good.

Waiting for players is tough. I am anxious to go daimyo hunting. Can't believe you have been waiting for nearly a week, fbouthil.

Waiting for players is tough. I am anxious to go daimyo hunting. Can't believe you have been waiting for nearly a week, fbouthil.

I checked a few other SG and they often take close to 2 weeks before having enough players. Just be a little bit more patient, we only need 2 more players. :cool:

I haven't been sitting idle ether. I am testing the scenario (with the previous setting of 3 enemy daimyos), am at the beginning of the second age now and lost 1 daimyo. I see that we will keep at least 4 catapults with our daimyo when attacking enemy daimyos of same strength. Ronin will come soon so I will be able to test their efficiency. I am guessing we will build a LOT of them. :D

One thing I have realized is that from the last turn of a player to his first turn of the next round, war sometimes shifts from one side of our territory to the other. Taking 3-4 turns to move a daimyo to the war front is becoming annoying. :mad: I will allow a player to ask the preceding player where he want to move his daimyo as well.

Otherwise, everything seems fine. I think we will have a lot of fun.

Cool. I am glad to see that you are testing it out. That should make the scenario go more smoothly once we get it going. And I am not going anywhere. Just hoping that if we keep it near the top, maybe it will attract more attention. And though I guess it is too early for pre-game discussion, keep us informed on play testing results.

Edit: By the way, saw the 'spam' in the other sengoku thread, so I know you want to go out and play with your daimyo too, even if you are doing a better job of hiding it.

By the way, saw the 'spam' in the other sengoku thread, so I know you want to go out and play with your daimyo too, even if you are doing a better job of hiding it.
Not by much it would seem. :D

I must admit I am really starting to wish I would play the real SG instead of testing it. People are still looking at this thread (view count is increasing by about 15 per day). I will add a starting position in the first post. Hopefully, people will decide to join instead of just looking.

As for my tests, ronins are very efficient against daimyos. I have reduced the daimyo to daimyo confrontations to enemy daimyos that were not upgraded. I left the others to the ronins. I just got ninjas so assassinating enemy daimyos is going to be much easier. I just installed CRpMapStat and that really helps trading with all those civs.

Some of those views are from me. I've been lurking a bit but don't think I have the time to sign up (or won't have time later during the game), although I sometimes come over wanting to sign up but don't think I have time. If another SG finishes for me I might join this. So this isn't a sign-up, but a potential sign-up (kind of starting to feel sorry for you guys because it looks like fun but you need more sign-ups, it's been a while but I think more people will sign up.)

He's in, even if he doesn't know it yet. Having one's own daimyo is just a temptation that cannot be resisted.

Viper275 is currently playing a SG with me. I think it will end in a week or 2. By lurking on his other SG, I doubt he will finish another SG before that. If he still wants to sign up by then, he definitely is in. Hopefully, we can have the last sign-up in the mean time. Maybe Keich will be freed by then. :)

As for my tests, heu, they were kind a postpone because I made the mistake of downloading the War Hammer mod and cannot resist it. :blush:

@fbouthil: That SG I'm in with you looks like it's nearing an end. A couple more cities on our continent then land on the other with that big stack of units and we've got a domination victory (and getting through the roster fast, 30 turns in 24 hours :eek: .) There are 2 others I'm in. Clive1 probably will take a while to end because although we're in the Industrial Age it is a training game so people will play 2 or 3 turns and get suggestions, which is very good but sometimes takes a little while (and the IA turns are pretty long.) Vpr2 is in the Ancient Age IIRC and it's AW so I don't really know if it will work too well.

Over 2 weeks and you need 2 more people... But don't give up, there's still a possibility that more people will join. And if Vpr1 ends soon then other people in that might join this too :) .

This is not a signup... though I am awfully intrigued (and tempted) by this. I like the variant rules here... my compliments to the host.

I will join. Can I go first, please?

Keich, you are in!

The last message from Viper275 sounds like he will sign in as soon the SG he is in with me finished, so I will put him at the end of the rooster.

So, the rooster is complete. I will update the original post, including the initial save game to rename the daimyos of the last 2 players and we can get on our way. I am not sure I will do this very often, here is the rooster:

Daimyo Oda Keich (up) :D
Daimyo Oda Detlef Richter (on deck) :)
Daimyo Oda fbouthil
Daimyo Oda bed_head7
(Until replacement) Daimyo Oda viper275

Hopefully, I can play my turn before saturday as I will be out visiting my brother saturday to monday.

It is now time to discuss opening moves. IMHO, settle in place. Research anything but the path that leads to Invention. AI almost always research that path and is more than happy to trade it giving his initial 10g as bonus.

I suppose you all noticed the simplifications I made to the rule about moving your daimyo. You can ask any other player to move your daimyo where you want. As an example, I will ask Keich to move my daimyo on the mountain E of the starting position.

If someone wants to join before Vpr1 is finished then let them and I can lurk instead. I might be able to work it in between now and September but I don't know about after that, so I also wouldn't mind playing for a couple weeks then lurking from there.

If someone wants to join before Vpr1 is finished then let them and I can lurk instead. I might be able to work it in between now and September but I don't know about after that, so I also wouldn't mind playing for a couple weeks then lurking from there.
:( I thought we finally had a complete rooster! I will add a note in the initial post then. If we cannot find a replacement by the time you decide to lurk instead of playing, I guess we will use your daimyo as replacement daimyo for the first player who looses his daimyo.

But I totally understand. I cannot prevent you from having a life outside of the SG. Hum. I will contact the local witch to see if she can do something about that. :crazyeye:

:( I thought we finally had a complete rooster! I will add a note in the initial post then. If we cannot find a replacement by the time you decide to lurk instead of playing, I guess we will use your daimyo as replacement daimyo for the first player who looses his daimyo.
I think we still have a complete roster... for now. But in September I'll have less time. I'm sure there will be one more signup within 2 weeks.
But I totally understand. I cannot prevent you from having a life outside of the SG. Hum. I will contact the local witch to see if she can do something about that. :crazyeye:
:lol: It would be fun not to have a life outside of SGs but you have to. :mad: But I wonder if fbouthil can somehow prevent that.

Family Member: Come over here!
Me: I can't.
Family Member: Why not?
Me: There's a forcefield around me that I can't get out of. I'm stuck at the computer.
Family Member: Oh. Okay. Never mind, then.

Are we on the river if we settler in place? I can never tell.

Are we on the river if we settler in place? I can never tell.

@bed_head: Here's a little trick for spotting riverside tiles: put your mouse pointer over the tile, right click, and choose "terrain info", to see the combination of food, shields, and gold. If the tile produces 1 gold, it's next to a river.

I'm enjoying the Jumpmasters game with you and Detlef... wish I'd signed up for this. (I've never played this scenario) but I'm looking forward to lurking this one.

@fbouthil: You impressed me with this bit:It is now time to discuss opening moves.Discussion in SGs is a really Good Thing. You guys are on your way to a well played, fun game. Good Luck!

@bed_head7: If you want to know if the starting place has access to fresh water so that a city on that tile won't require an aqueduc, well it won't. Not only is it next to a river, but it is also next to a lake! :)

@scoutscout: There is still an open place if you want it! Viper275 said he would prefer lurking this game since he won't be able to play in september, so he will play only if we cannot find someone to replace him! As for the fact that you did not play this scenario before, I am sure everyone in the rooster will be more than happy to give you pointers about the specifics of this scenario. I would be more than happy to have a full rooster.
:worship: So, please sign in! :worship:

And yes, I do a LOT of discussion in my SG. I sometimes quote the obvious as I am new to SG and do not know what is commonly known and what is not. I prefer to write too much than to forget to say something that may be important. :rolleyes:

@scoutscout: There is still an open place if you want it! Viper275 said he would prefer lurking this game

fbouthil <---grabs scout's arm and threatens to twist it...

scoutsout <--- ooh!, ow! That might hurt! OkayOkayOkay...quit twisting my arm, I'm in. :D

Preferences on my little Daimyo guy.... scout (hehehe "Scouts - OUT!) scout around with him and play whack-a-barb with him... or maybe go find us our first enem... er... "contact". No guts, no glory. No combat, no promotions.

I have actually used that little trick before, with the rick click, but wasn't really thinking here. And I realized we didn't need the river to get out of building an aqueduct. I was thinking more along the lines that we get an extra commerce in the tile we always use if we are next to a river. Also, scoutsout, how have you never played this scenario? The first thing I did when I got Conquests was play Sengoku, though I can't remember which tribe. Kiech, I wouldn't mind if you did a little scouting with my Daimyo either as long as it kept out of reach of barbs. But while one has his own Daimyo, there is no using the Daimyo of others, is there?

Welcome in scoutsout. So it looks that we have no chance in our competition, because of this tacticel nuke warmonger scout (beware of this 'I have an idea' :eek: ).

Scoutsout, you are in! @Keich: please rename viper275 daimyo's accordingly.

As for directives concerning your daimyo, the rule I made said you can ask the current player to move it to a specific location. No attack and no vague orders, like scout in that direction (He can defend himself, of course).

But since the game has not been started, we could chance the rule if you prefer. I would prefer not since it would remove the feeling of playing your own personal daimyo.

Also remember that we are on a random map so some specifics of the Sengoku scenario map do not apply anymore. There won't be lots of barb camps early in the game. Some terrains are back in the map, like jungles, marshes, floodplains, desert, tundra. Lux are back in patches so we won't be able to grad all lux with our first 5 cities.

Excellent! I have been wanting to play a war-scenario with you ScoutScout, welcome aboard!

Wow, I am getting a few more actions then I planned on with the daiymos', though. I will try not to let you guys die! LOL!

I will start this soon.

@bed_head: I gave this scenario a shot for the first time last night.... took my little Daimyo guy out to play whack-a-barb against a camp on a mountain, and got him killed. Didn't catch on that the little Daimyo guys are part of the "Regicide" thing, and I also forgot about the Barbarian combat bonus at Emperor level...suffered the fastest humiliating conquest defeat I have ever had. :blush:

Let's hope my efforts in this game are a little more fruitful.

@Detlef: I'm sure you'll get your share of the points... as you saw in Ankka's RBC Ottoman thing, I like to do setups too. :mischief:

@fbouthil: Are we playing 10 turn sets? Let's see here... making instructions specific...but flexible enough so the unit gets used...how about this:

Take my Daimyo, and move him straight west to scout and make contact with another civ. The player may deviate up to 2 tiles off the westward course to take advantage of terrain or pop a goody hut. You may also deviate from the westward course to avoid trespassing in enemy territory. Don't attack any barb camps on mountains, please. Barbs on flatland or hills are fair game for attacking with my Daimyo... as long as they are within 2 tiles of that westward course.

Will those instructions meet your standards?

Well, I suppose my Daimyo will be jealous of all the travelling being done by others, but I guess he can just stay at home for the time being.

The save. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Fbo1_1460AD.SAV)

(0)Pregame: We are standing on an river square. I think the other daiymo's just want to find a town for themselves - a home, so thats what they are going to do. Rename scoutscout's diaymo. Set sci to metal-working.

Daiymo fbouthil wishes to oversee the world from the mountain, and spies a cow very close to us and another goodie hut...and another mountain (must climb!!!)

Daiymo Scout makes a rush for the new goodie hut. Deilf Richter goes with him, hoping scouts 'plan' doesn't backfire on him.

My Daiymo takes the hut next to us: 25g.

Daiymo Bedhead moves south, and finds some beautiful tundra...

Despite the 1 square of tundra, I move the settler SE, to grab a total of 4 bonus grass and the cow.

Having played the original scenario only once, I wonder what our civ-bonuses are...lets see: nothing. Excellent. Well, at least none of the other civs have the same.

(1)July 1450: Not a lot of build choices, so we start on peasant warriors. Scout pops a map, finding another hut - and takes off in a sprint for it. Fbouthil finds yellow boarders. Richter decides to walk along the river - not wanting to follow Scouts chaotic path any longer - and finds some jade. Kiech finds the Miyako, along with a large number of dyes, and makes contact. Nothing to trade yet, heh.

Sci can go to 100% metal working in 9.

(2)Jan, 1451: Richter finds another hut, and wishes his family had learned the ways of exploration to better meet these villagers, but walks in with open arms to them. IT WORKS! Richter finds the Ainu tribe has the secrets of Mysticism, and learns the wisdom. Learning the of the great success that Richter had with the Ainu, bedhead spots a small Ainu tribe as well, and, as Richter did, walks in with open arms: They are backwards, but share thier knowledge of the reigon with him, including the location of some dyes. Fbouthil decides to meet the 'yellow' people east of our lands, and goes to greet them. He stands dutifuly outside of their boarders while waiting for an emmisary to appear.

(3)Jul, 1451: Fbouthil meets the Hojo dynasty, and trades Mysticism +11g for Pottery. ScoutScout, rushes into the small Ainu camp to greet them...and is welcomed by Blades! Apparently, they wish that no one disturb thier jade, and prepare to attack! Kiech meets the Date dynasty, but they are backwards.

IBT: Scout slices open the hearts of one Ainu, while the other two run away south, towards our boarders. Scout notes that he probably wouldn't have been hurt if he had just sliced out the warriors heart right away, instead of playing with him: this knowledge gives him vetran status.

(4)Jan, 1452: Scout takes a charging run at the fleeing Ainu warrior, and remembers to slice FIRST, then play, he is unscathed. Kiech finds some more jade, and Richter sees something he has never heard of before: A volcano. Bedhead comes back with the same information.

(5)Jul, 1452: ScoutScout learns that cutting out the heart first doesn't always work, and wonders how he might improve upon his sword. He decides to start for home to oversee the the capital. Richter the explorer spies some incence, but finds he has no way to scale the volcano, ah well. An ashigaru was to be trained next turn, but our people decide to work instead on a granary. Kiech finds a hut.

(6)Jan, 1453: Kiech tries the tried and true method of walking into the Ainu camp, arms open: and gets some useless maps. Fbouthil finds another camp. Bedhead decides to head for home.

IBT: Our mine FINALLY completes.

(7)Jul, 1453: Fbouthil moves towards the Ainu camp, and in a bout of incredible diplomacy, scores us the secrets of the Alphabet, and finds the end of the world. Kiech spyies some dark green boarders to the west.

(8)Jan, 1454: Kiech meets the Takeda people. They are backwards, but have some furs already hooked up.

(9)Jul, 1454: Scout makes it home, and rests. Sci to 20% to grab metal working in 1. Date and Hojo have it already.

IBT: We complete Metal Working, and move on to Sword-Smithing, as directed by Scout.

(10)Jan, 1455: Bedhead makes it home, but then leaves again to map out a spot close to our capital. Sci to 90% to get SS in 20. The road on the bonus grass is done, so our worker moves towards the cow, we get to start working it next turn.

IBT: Boarders expand, engulfing the cow.

(11)Jul, 1455: Kiech pops a hut, and forgetting ALL thought of diplomacy, is attacked! He also spyies grey boarders and incence.

IBT: Kiech nearly takes a fall! But the other two Ainu don't attack.

(12)Jan, 1456: Kiech moves onto a hill for defence and healing. Scout leaves the capital, to take a better look around.

(13)Jul, 1456: The Mogami greet Kiech, but have nothing useful to trade. Kiech fortifes to heal.

(14)Jan, 1457: :sleep:

(15)Jul, 1457: Ready for more, Kiech attacks an Ainu - and is hurt, no promotion.

IBT: Kiech remembers that 'cut out the heart FIRST' lesson he heard from Scout, and tries it! Promotion.

(16)Jan, 1458: Done scouting, Scout moves back home.

IBT: Granary completes, start settler

(17)Jul, 1458: Satisfied, Beadhead heads home.

(18)Jan, 1459: Richter the explorer decides to head home. Cow mining complete, start road.

(19)Jul, 1459: Having satisfactory mapped out the Eastern coast, Fbouthil heads home.

(20)Jan, 1460: Scout makes it home. Richter, Fbouthil, and Bedhead can make it home within Richter's turns. My daiymo is so far away now...he won't make it home for a while.

Postgame: I hope I didn't go to far moving the Daiymos around, but we have 2 Vetran daiymos now, and in the tech lead. I don't know were to put the settler yet. The jade isn't going to be needed until the next age, but gives a lot of gold/shields. We need to start up our war machine quickly, and I think the Date people should be the first to go, followed by the Hojo. Too bad Catapults are many techs down the road. All of the wonders in this game are awesome. Lets try to get as many as possible. :)

My Daiymo: Should rest, then work his way back to the town via the black areas. Avoid any barbs, as I don't need to promote till the next upgrade.

Roster: The (v) is your promotion level. The number is how many hearts you have(plus yours!)
(v 3)Daimyo Oda Keich - Out exploring other lands.
Daimyo Oda Detlef Richter 'The Explorer' - Up.
Daimyo Oda fbouthil - On Deck
Daimyo Oda bed_head7
(v 3)Daimyo Oda scoutscout

Early wonders:
The Great Wall: Gives us walls and double vs barbs - doesn't expire
The Oracle: Doubles Temples - doesn't expire
Art of War: Barracks everywhere, and greater chance of leaders
Izumo Shrine: (small) Extra food, shields, and gold on water tiles + 2 happy faces in the town its built. :goodjob:

Upgrade paths:
1 - 2.2.2 Starting Daiymo
2 - 3.3.2 Zone of Control
3 - 4.4.2
4 - 5.5.2 Blitz
5 - 6.6.2 Amphibous Assult
6 - 7.7.2 ATAR
7 - 8.8.2 Assasin
8 - 9.9.2
9 - 10.10.2 Enslave to Samurai
10 - 11.11.2 Detect invisible
All of the abilities stack.

Wait for the pictures, please!

Edit: Added Daiymo kills.

OK, since I don't know how to make the info boxes go away on my screen, the SS will have to be divided up a lot.

Looking at the Stone Archers, they have an active and passive bombard. I say we get a bunch of them ready.

Going from the Far East (this game DOES wraparound, btw) to the west:

Fbouthil's location near the Hojo lands:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/fbouthil1460-01.jpg

Scout, bedhead, and Richter are here:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/fbouthil1460-02.jpg

Richter inspecting the Date lands:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/fbouthil1460-03.jpg

The Takeda people:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/fbouthil1460-04.jpg

Kiech and the Mogami:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/fbouthil1460-05.jpg

Nice start, and enjoyable reading! :goodjob:

Hum. I see that the rule about using other player's daimyo has been completely ignored by both Keich and Scoutsout, so let's forget about it. The idea was that the only active daimyo was the one of the current player. I only allowed moving the other player's daimyo to prevent using most of your turns to move your daimyo towards the action.

Since every daimyo can now attack on every player's turn, there is no point of delaying the competitions. All titles, except Ninja master, are now more a statistic than a real competition between players.

I see my suggestions about NOT researching toward invention has also been completely ignored. :cry: By looking at the other civs, I can see that they ALL have metal working, so it would have been easy to trade for it. I think the same thing will be true about sword-smithing and invention.

On the other hand, nice stories Keich! And good exploration! :goodjob:

Suggestions: Mining the cow means a 8t settler factory. By irrigating it instead, we can have a 6t settler factory. That is not as important as in the standard game because we do not have much space to grow.

As for civ-bonuses, all civs have none. There are no UU for a golden age. Golden age comes from building ANY wonder.

I also think we should build a few towns and hook up iron for bushi before starting to think about conquests. Still, we can use our daimyos to harass our neighbours by attacking their ashigarus and capturing some of their first settlers, etc. :hammer:

My apologies for messing up your intent with the use of the daimyo. I thought you wanted us to give specific instructions so that a player simply wouldn't play fast and loose with the Daimyo of others...

I'll take the blame for messing up that part of the variant.

As for the scorekeeping... the only thing that has been killed so far is barbs, and we could simply not count the barbs if you'd like to restore the competition part.

I had a thought on further instructions with my Daimyo...let it escort the "regular" rank Daimyo of another as a bodyguard to go hunt barbs and get combat experience (promotion). Just a passing thought.

I also thought I might play with some dotmaps this evening if you'd like.

Hum. I see that the rule about using other player's daimyo has been completely ignored by both Keich and Scoutsout, so let's forget about it. The idea was that the only active daimyo was the one of the current player. I only allowed moving the other player's daimyo to prevent using most of your turns to move your daimyo towards the action.

Since every daimyo can now attack on every player's turn, there is no point of delaying the competitions. All titles, except Ninja master, are now more a statistic than a real competition between players.

We can still do this if you want. I didn't want to handicap us by not knowing the lands and missing out on the huts. It seemed everyone wanted me to scout around quite a bit, so it didn't appear to be a problem. Why don't we simply start the competition after the first round is up? By then, we should be in a good spot to start up plently of wars.

I see my suggestions about NOT researching toward invention has also been completely ignored. :cry: By looking at the other civs, I can see that they ALL have metal working, so it would have been easy to trade for it. I think the same thing will be true about sword-smithing and invention.

This was a gamble I took, hoping to pop a few huts. Luckily it worked out for the better.

On the other hand, nice stories Keich! And good exploration! :goodjob:

Thank you!

Suggestions: Mining the cow means a 8t settler factory. By irrigating it instead, we can have a 6t settler factory. That is not as important as in the standard game because we do not have much space to grow.

Irrigating that cow will require us to irrigate 2 squares, it didn't seem prudent.

Golden age comes from building ANY wonder.

Good to know. :goodjob:

I also think we should build a few towns and hook up iron for bushi before starting to think about conquests. Still, we can use our daimyos to harass our neighbours by attacking their ashigarus and capturing some of their first settlers, etc. :hammer:

Hopefully the iron is near...in the Japan scenario, there were a LOT more resourses around the area. Here, we may have to fight for it. Good thing the Daiymo's don't need any iron to upgrade.

Does every one agree to start the competition after the first round? I want to make sure everyone agrees before making another change. I guess I am a very bad host, not being able to make myself clear from the start. :sad:

I like scoutsout's idea of trying to get every daimyo to veteran status and escorting regular daimyo with veteran for protection.

This was a gamble I took, hoping to pop a few huts. Luckily it worked out for the better.
Keich, you seem to have a trick I do not know. How does tech discovered by popping huts affect our current research? Was metal working less likely to be popped by huts? Note that in this game, we are ahead in tech anyway, but I would really like to know your trick!

Yeah, it would be nice if the competition started after we'd all played once, and hopefully we are all vets.

I guess I am a very bad host, not being able to make myself clear from the start. :sad: I disagree; I think you are an excellent host. And I think this is going to be a fun SG. Keich, you seem to have a trick I do not know. How does tech discovered by popping huts...I could be wrong, but I think his idea was to research what we needed militarily, and pop trade-worthy techs from huts... in any event, we should be able to adjust/re-think our strategy next time we discover a tech. I might have easily taken the same path... not really having a good feel for this scenario. I think I'll have another go at a personal version of it after some turns in Jumpmasters tonight. (Need to go make a copy of bed_head's log in that one to have for reference...)

I also thought I might play with some dotmaps this evening if you'd like.
I must admit I am new to CFC and SG, so this is probably known by anyone else but, what do you mean by playing with dotmaps? Are you going to suggests spots for new cities? In that case, please do. Remember RCP does not work in C3C.

I always agree with giving suggestions to players (but I do not always agree with the suggestions themselves :D ).

Are you going to suggests spots for new cities? In that case, please do. Remember RCP does not work in C3C. Exactly. :thumbsup: I do it with an image editor and a screenshot.

I always agree with giving suggestions to players (but I do not always agree with the suggestions themselves :D ).The good thing about dotmaps is that it fosters discussion. Rarely does the final empire look like the first dotmap... all it will be is a starting point for discussion. But after a few rounds of discussion everyone will be working towards the same goals...

First cut...something to get us started.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/scout_sengoku_DOTMAP.jpg

The trick is: You only get the techs you AREN'T studying when popping huts.

It all looks very nice. So i have to say 'got it'.
I will go on with exploring to climb the ladder of veteran status for each daimyo.
@dotmap: the one to W/NW looks great for our first one. We own a lux and we barrikade the enemy expand direction.

What about our techs, should we still search or not?

Finish up the tech we are on now, for sure. As for the next tech...Invention is so enthralling, but the one leading up to the catapults sounds good to.

Well... I took another stab at Sengoku as a personal scenario tonight. I learned a few things.

I learned that this "scenario" has almost as much depth as the classic Epic game.

I learned that Daimyo can make Great Leaders. :D

And I was reminded that I still have much to learn.

This is going to be a fun game, and I am really glad I signed up.

This is the first time I see a dotmap, cool! :cool:

I agree with Detlef Richter for the first city position. Suggest the spot NE for the second city, although I am not sure Detlef Richter can make a second settler in his turns. I see we will need workers fast as many cities won't be able to grow in 10t before that.

If you are going to do some harassment, I suggest to pick on Hojo as they have spices and are the only civ E.

@fbouthil: glad you liked the dotmap. City planning in this is a little tricky... so if anyone on the team can think of a reason to move some of these, suggest away.

We will need lots and lots of workers in this...as for harassment... don't the AI have 5 Daimyo as well?

There is no way to get above size 12 in this game right? I looked in the editor, but I just wanted to be sure.

There are 5 Shoguns for each civ. They only have the 'king' strategy checked, so they will space thier kings among a few cities. I assume they will upgrade, but I can't be sure.

I disagree with attacking Hojo first. We can effectively block his expansion from the east with a few settlers, then take his lands at our pleasure. Date is an excellent target for now.

Things confusing me a little bit, but i hope i have done alright:

1460 Juli: I like the plan to attack the Hojo, so i start to move out Daimyos
near his borders.

1461 Jan: Nagoya builds settler and starts an ashigaru

Juli: nothing happens

1462 Jan: Nagoya builds ashigaru and go on with settler
the great wanderer Oda Keich meets the Otomo and make a party
with the also found sake

Juli: nothing

1463 Jan: found Seto and start to build barracks

Juli: nothing

1464 Jan: our next goal is invention
Oda Detlef can't wait any longer and decides to attack the Hojo

Juli: Oda Detlef kills one Ashigaru

1465 Jan: Nagoya build settler and go on with ashigaru
Oda Detlef looses against an ashigaru and jumps to an nearly
mountain with one hp left.

For the next better player, move my oda out of the borders and let him heal.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sengoku1465pic1.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sengoku1465pic2.JPG

@Detlef Richter: Good turns! That really looks like what I had in mind :hammer: Hojo.

I will play tonight. As I usually do when I post my got it, I include my intentions so the team has time to discuss it.

I will continue to :hammer: Hojo with the regular daimyo attacking their ashigaru. I will make sure I attack from the tile NW of their city as it is the only place I can launch an attack without the river penalty. I will also take time to heal any wounded daimyo.
The moving settler will found a city on the closest FP. I will turn that city into a worker factory.
Daimyo Oda Keich is far away from home. Since the only daimyo that can attack in the next round (in 30t) is the one of the current player, he will turn back when he finds another civ.
The next settler will move to the spot NE in the middle of the forest as suggested by Scoutsout.
The worker will build a road toward Seto.


Any comments or suggestions wellcome (even if they are against my intentions).

Just a little to early for war, IMHO. We need to use non-daiymo units to weaken the other tribes first, so we don't lose any daiymo's over silly mistakes. Did you at least upgrade the Daiymo's first?

I don't think we have a barracks that we can use to upgrade the Daimyos...

Exactly. Why are we attacking at all? This is sure to get a daiymo killed.

I thought attacking ashigaru with our daimyo was relatively safe, so I opened CivIII Combat Calculator to make my point and found out that attacking ashigaru fortified in a town with a regular daimyo meant losing 18% of the time. Even if the ashigaru is not fortified, it is still too risky I think (14%). One level of experience makes a world of difference here (chances of losing drops by half).

This is clearly too much so I agree with Keich, no attack for now. Daimyos would lose attacking unfortified barb only 4% of the time and 6% if fortified (on open ground). So I will seek barbs instead (but none shows up in F3 for now).

We do not have a barrack and we do not have the money either to upgrade daimyos (27g to upgrade to shogun-2 and 30g more to shogun-3, for EACH daimyo). I think we should lower research when a barrack has been built (no point of lowering research before that).

BTW, other civs do upgrade their daimyo, but only the daimyo that are lucky enough to be in a city with a barrack and it has enough money (another reason why I lowered the cost of daimyo upgrade as it would be too easy to kill shogun-1 near the end of the game). AI tend to move one daimyo to each of their first towns, escorting them like settlers.

Jan 1465 (preturn) - zzz

Jul 1465(1)
Keich discovers a strange kind of worm that makes very soft coccons and think it could make nice clothings, if we could send some peasants there. :eek:

Jan 1466(2)
Finished training peasants for combat (ashigaru) and decide to ask some of our citizens to pack their belongings to extend our power (settler).
Detlef Richter decides to hire Scoutsout as bodyguard while he heals his wounds.

Jul 1466(3)
Citizens settle near the river in a place I name Ogaki.
Keich gets traps in an Ainu ambush. They encircles him, but he takes refuge climbing a nearby mountain.

Jan 1467(4)
Keich cleverly evades the Ainu patrols moving to mountain further away from home.
Detlef Richter feels like his own self again.

IBT
A single Ainu patrol decide that Keich does not deserve to live but underestimate him as he cuts their heads immediately. :nya: Amateurs!

Jul 1467(5) - zzz

Jan 1468(6)
Hojo finally accepts to admit our superiority and give 21g to compensate his previous offenses.
Apparently, Keich did not learn a previous lesson and gets trapped in another Ainu ambush. :blush:

IBT
An Ainu decides to attack Keich which puts his head on a pike, :evil: scaring the other two Ainu who are paralyzed by terror.

Jul 1468(7)
Keich misses his mother's cooking and decides to head home.

Jan 1469(8)
Some citizens of Seto say that Date treats his peasants better than us so Detlef Richter and bed_head7 decide to remember them who their REAL daimyo is. Somehow, seeing a katana up close convinces them to forget about Date.
fbouthil and Scoutsout find a nice spot to labor the land and order some citizens to move there.

Jul 1469(9) - zzz

Jan 1470(10) - zzz

I put half our daimyos on each side of our empire to get ready to attack barb where ever they would show up. I checked every turn, but no Ainu had the guts to established a camp nearby. :(

There is a Date peasant worker in range of the daimyos in Seto. I suggest DoW on Date and capture that worker :ninja: (on bed_head7 turn 0 as the worker just finished working his current tile and will move away). They do not have anything to hurt our daimyo for now and we could really use a worker to irrigate the plains near Seto.

I think the settler can found a city on his current tile next turn.

Nice turns, and nice work with the turnlog. I can see that I'm going to have to dig a little bit to keep the literary tone this SG is taking. Samurai drinking tea and writing haikus and all that. :D

I think I must have infected you somehow, fbouthil. Unless I am missing something, there doesn't seem to be a save. And other SG teammates would have me believe that I was the only one who forgot. So for now, I will say I am aware that it is my turn next.

Nice story, I won't even try to compete. Creative writing is by far my worst area in school, and really the only thing I don't like.

I think I must have infected you somehow, fbouthil. Unless I am missing something, there doesn't seem to be a save.Oh man - nothing will mess up a game like not having a game to play! :crazyeye: And other SG teammates would have me believe that I was the only one who forgot.Only in this SG. I've done it...just not here. ;) Nice story, I won't even try to compete. Creative writing is by far my worst area in school, and really the only thing I don't like.
#1 - the key to turnlogs is to have a turnlog.
#2 - Have fun
#3 - If you don't like to write, just kill something and tell us. We'll enjoy reading about that. :D

I do keep turn logs in SGs. Haven't I posted my progress in my turn sets in Jumpmasters? And I'll make sure to kill lots of stuff, as long as the odds are in our favor, there just won't be any ceremony.

:blush: :blush: It was getting late and I had to pack for my trip this week-end so I forgot to include the save. Sorry! It is the first time I make that mistake. :blush: :blush:

I usually include a screenshot so since I have some time until my lift arrives, here it is:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Fbo1_1470.JPG

Notice that the Date worker just finished irrigating the plains, bringing fresh water to the plains next to our city. This is so nice of him that we should really think about hiring him! (by force of course ;) )

We also have enough money (thanks to Hojo :D ) to upgrade one daimyo when the barrack is finished. Why don't we upgrade one of the regular daimyo so he can perfect his skills killing ashigaru? Hum. It is still a 10% chances of losses but if you get tired of waiting to Ainu to appear...

You guys have done a nice job of expanding to this point. If I may offer a suggestion: Let's swap Ogaki to worker. It will make a worker on the turn it grows...we could then irrigate/road the floodplain (roading for future northward expansion) but by irrigating the FP, we'd have worker factory potential there. These peasant workers don't seem all that efficient, and we're going to need some more workers pretty soon.

Barracks in Seto is a Good Thing, IMO. That town looks like it's got unit factory potential. If it had been founded next to the lake it wouldn't need an aqueduct... but since it can't get past size 6 anyway we'll have fewer happiness problems. We need to get that one to size 6 with zero surplus food at size 6 ... 4 citizens working mined grass or irrigated plains, and 2 citizens working forest...

Since we haven't gone all the way through the order yet, do you want to skip ahead of me scoutsout, and I take the turnset after? I don't think I will be able to give the game the attention it deserves for the next few days, but would still like to get my turns if possible. I could just skip though, if that would be preferable.

I guess that was a bit premature. Hopefully, scoutsout isn't already playing. But probably he would have said something if he was. I will go ahead and play right now.

Jan., 1470 AD (40) - I really don't want to declare war on the Date just yet, with no attackers.

Jul., 1470 AD (41) - Date have Invention. I trade them Alphabet for it straight up. Now, what to research? Sojutsu at min., which would give us money to buy techs and eventually Shogun-4, with blitz? Not patient enough. I guess its Masonry in 12 for us, which will give us walls which are actually really useful in this game, though expensive. Ichinomiya founded on the river (Masonry drops to 10 turns). It is shield rich, so it will start work on a barracks and then maybe will grow to be 10 spt (I don't know how bad corruption will be). Daimyo Oda Kiech disturbed some Ainu warriors, and is now alone in the desert surrounded by barbarians.

Jan., 1471 AD (42) - Ogaki is building Ashigaru, I switch it to worker. After doing this, I think I remember that scoutsout suggested this, and I forgot to do it earlier. Also checked worker progress on iron mountain, and road will be finished in 7. Leaving me no time to war, but a chance to maybe set up scoutsout with a couple regular Bushi. That will require some luck though on Daimyo Oda Kiech's part in exploration (he managed to, uh, cut out two barbarian hearts or something on the interturn).

Jul., 1471 AD (43) - Worker in Ogaki, starts Granary, which could be changed. It will take forever to build, but once built will mean lots of workers. Daimyo Oda Kiech is in more trouble than ever before, surrounded by six Ainu ashigaru. Masonry now due in 7.

IT - Daimyo Oda Kiech only has to kill two Ainu and promote to Grandmaster before the rest of the barbs figure out that maybe attacking isn't such a good plan. I am going to keep in the area though and disperse the camp, since we need the cash.

Jan., 1472 AD (44) - Daimyo Oda Kiech successfully disperses the camp, and only wastes one turn on coming home.

Jul., 1472 AD (45) - Stuff happens, but I'm not telling.

Jan., 1473 AD (46) - Nagoya finishes settler. Hey, let's build another! I am not really sure where to put it, so it is headed for the coastal spot on the river.

Jul., 1473 AD (47) - Barracks in Seto, Ashigaru in 4 though that will switch to Bushi in a couple.

Jan., 1474 AD (48) - Same as turn 45.

IT - Road completes, Iron is available in the capital and Seto.

Jul., 1474 AD (49) - Ainu tribes near Nagoya! I think it is barb hunting time for a certain Daimyo who just woke up. I upgraded one Bushi. It was at this point, seconds too late, that I remembered that we need to be upgrading Daimyos. I was too busy thinking of a warrior upgrade and swords rush on a small scale to take the Date. Now we have 7 gold in the bank. So we'll have to rely on Daimyo Oda Kiech to fetch some more money.

Jan., 1475 AD (50) - Making things roll around would be cool, says our Science Advisor. Okay! The Wheel in 12. Daimyo Oda bed_head7 defeats an Ainu ashigaru outside of Nagoya. Don't see any signs of the encampment, but we need the money, thanks to my confusion.

Iron, excellent! I was a little worried that we wouldn't end up with any, as this is a generated map.

Grandmaster, eh? Cool. Too bad I go back to vetran after being upgraded...

I see that the team is not very patient in science so far, but I will still suggest to switch from TW to Sojutsu at 10%, which should give us enough money to upgrade a daimyo every 5t of so (it costs 57g to upgrade to shogun-3).

You could also use a few more daimyo to help uncover the Ainu camp faster.

lurker's coment: If you need good defenses, Sojutsu is a must. Spearmen in the Sengoku game are units that won't be defeated for a long time (1/4/1)

However, if the AI isn't fighting you back, I'd try to get a few catapults to help your daimyo(s) defeat AI units.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/Footersm.gif

Daimyo Oda scoutsout is summoned to the palace to survey the empire. The Ghost of Daimyo Oda fbouthil briefly posesses Daimyo scout, and scout feels suddenly compelled to make changes to the fledgeling tribe's research pursuits. The monks' efforts are directed to research Sojutsu, at a liesurely pace.

Daimyo Scout then surveys the landscape, and sees that many peasant workers must be equipped with little shovels - and soon.

Visiting with the leaders of other tribes, scout sees that the Hojo have not yet uncovered the secrets of Masonry, Alphabet, or Invention. The Takeda and Otomo are similarly backwards.

Daimyo Oda Detlef Richter and fbouthil are awakened for combat training against Ainu tribemen.

IBT - a peasant worker completes a road.

Turn 1 (Jul, 1475)
The fishing village of Gifu is founded, and begins to train Ashigaru. Daimyo Oda Keich continues his journey homeward.

IBT - Nagoya equips a settler, begins equipping a peasant worker

Turn 2 (Jan 1476) Our settler moves out under the escort of Daimyo Oda fbouthil. Daimyo Oda Detlef Richter cuts the heart out of an Ainu Ashigaru, and learns that he must perfect his technique if he is to flawlessly kill the enemy, as he has lost a hit point.

Turn 3 Jul 1476

Daimyo Oda Detlef fortifies to rest. Grandmaster Daimyo Oda Keich continues his long march.

In order to get the other tribes to assist in our research, knowledge of Mysticism is sold to the Mogami, Otomo, Takeda, and Date for ten gold coins each. The Hojo already had these secrets, but no gold. The musicians are causing Daimyo Oda scout's empire to run herky-jerky, so they are silenced.

IBT - A Hojo settler pair appears from the fog near Daimyo Oda and his settler.

Turn 4 (Jan 1477) In order to claim the dies, Kariya is founded on the spot. Not the spot where Daimyo Oda scout wanted a town, but we must beat the Hojo to these spots. Kariya starts training an Ashigaru.

Daimyo Oda Detlef Richter disperses the Ainu camp. We really must work on his technique, he is slow to promote. Daimyo Oda fbouthill kills an Ainu Ashigaru that had been getting int he way of our settler pair.

IBT - the hojo settler pair moves, Nagoya equips a peasant worker, starts a barracks.
Turn 5 (Jul 1477)

Daimyo Oda bed_head and Daimyo Oda Detlef Richter move to block the hojo settler pair.

IBT - the Hojo settler pair decides to find a new home to the east.

Turn 6 (Jan 1478)

Honorable Daimyo Oda fbouthil receives training at the the Seto school of martial arts, and is promoted to the rank of Shogun-3. Grandmaster Daimyo Oda Keich returns homeward. Corporal punishment advises of another Ainu tribe near Ichinomiya.

IBT - The foolish Hojo settler pair annoys again. Seto trains a Bushi

Turn 7 (July 1478)

Swap Nagoya's build to Stone Crossbow (need another settler soon)

Daimyo Oda fbouthill moves out to Ichinomiya to train against the Ainu warriors with his shiny new Katana.

Turn 8 (Jan 1479)

a bushi is sent to relieve the honorable Daimyo Oda Detlef and Daimyo Oda bed_head from settler blocking duty.

IBT - the Takeda complain about our passing Grandmaster. Kariya trains an Ashigaru, starts another.

Turn 9 (Jul 1479) Daimyo Oda fbouthil has not yet located the ainu camp.

IBT - Nagoya trains a stone Crossbow, starts equipping a settler. An Ainu Ashigaru shows his face in the forest of Daimyo Oda fbouthil's position.

Turn 10 (Jan 1480) Daimyo Oda fbouthil cuts the heart out of an Ainu Ashigaru. He has found the Ainu encampment, an if attacked IBT is almost assured of promotion.

Some thoughts: We accumulated over 100g, even after upgrading one Daimyo. I suggest we upgrade the regular Daimyo first, and get them into some combat with barbs and get them promoted as soon as we can.

We need workers in a bad way. When that second granary is complete we need to dedicate that town to a worker factory.

There's a worker roading some jade in that northern town. Irrigate the floodplains and mine the desert, and that will be a productive little town some day.

DON'T swap any Ashigaru builds. Those can be upgraded to Bushi.

Theres a Hojo settler pair in the south that I've been blocking. I had to tie down two Daimyo to do the block, but after a couple more Ashigaru builds, we ought be able to free up Daimyo Oda Detlef and bed_head.

For the next better player: > > The Save < < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Fbo1_1480Jan.SAV)

Here's our world:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/scout_SENGOKU_1480status.jpg

Ogaki was intended to become a worker factory, I don't know if I said that. But now it has been said, and I agree completely.

I disagree on switching to Sojutsu. Getting catapults now would have given a good project in barracks-less towns, and probably would make a bigger difference in combat odds if we get a few than a daimyo with an extra attack and defense point. Though that blitz ability is intriguing.

@bed_head: You clearly know my love for combined arms. :D The kicker here is that we dont have enough roads (or cities) to develop a meaningful number of catapults at this point... it's not that your idea is 'wrong'... it's just a little early. Besides, we've got iron, so we don't have to raise a 'poor man's army'.

I daresay we need to finish this research track, and go to one of the lower tracks that the AI are less likely to research....

With minimum research we can upgrade all of our daimyo, and go after the Hojo in earnest with a bunch of Bushi to kill everything but the enemy daimyo. The Hojo are broke, and I don't think they've got iron yet, so we'll be faced with shogun-1's facing our Shogun-4's...

But you're right - as we push westward, we will need some other units... isn't there an archer unit that has offensive bombard in this scenario?

Stone crossbow, which I think has attack of 2 and bombard 1, and not the range 0 bombard that archers have. I could be wrong, though, and I am thinking that I should check out the scenario again. You are right, and I have come to understand and share your love of combined arms. I already appreciated them before, when I found out how valuable kill ratios are on higher levels, but playing in an SG with you and playing on higher levels in general, catapults seem indispensible. Since I am not at all interested in losing my daimyo, I would like to give myself 95% chance of winning whenever I can, and artillery is the way to go there, while upgrading has a much more minor effect on odds in combat. But you are right, at this point we don't have enough settlements to even be producing catapults at this point, so I suppose we can wait 40 extra turns until we have some more towns.

Very good job scoutsout :goodjob: . I love this write style, but my english isn't good enough to do the same.

Got it, will play soon.

Preflight: Scoutscout did a good job!

IBT: No attacks from barbs. Gifu Ashigaru > worker

(1)Jul, 1480: Fbouthil upgrades to Vetran.

(2)Jan, 1481: :sleep:

(3)Jul, 1481: Jade connected. Richter upgrades for 57g.

(4)Jan, 1482: Not much.

(5)Jul, 1482: Hojo settler builds a city on the east coast.

(6)Jan, 1483: Scoutscout upgrades.

(7)Jul, 1483: Kiech upgrades. Bed_head upgrades.

(8)Jan, 1484: Toki is founded.

(9)Jul, 1484: Not much.

(10)Jan, 1485: :sleep:

Nothing truly of note happened, except that all of the daiymos are now level 3. I think we should start building archives EVERYWHERE, as our research is much too slow...definatley more workers are needed.

We can probably try to take the Date capital now.

Richter and Bed_head are in the mountains trying to find barbs to pick on.

The save. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Fbo1_1485Jan.SAV)

I've got it. I'am happy if i can get some comments for our further turns.

I had the intention to make a post like this at the beginning of the second round, but it did not seem fair because Daimyo Keich was far away from home at the beginning of his turn so I will do it now.

So, if you want to play the variant I suggested, I will try to make it simple:

Your personal daimyo should be the only one active on your turn. The daimyo of the other player can be moved and upgraded, but they can do nothing else.
Enemy daimyo can only be attack by your personal daimyo and unit without nationality. They can be bombarded however.
Every combat that implicate a daimyo should be logged in detail.


Note that the AI are pretty stupid with their daimyo so having only one active daimyo even things a little. Here is the list of titles as a reminder:

Daimyo Hunter: The daimyo who kills the most enemy daimyos personally.
Golden Katana: The daimyo who kills the most units personally.
Ninja master: The player who assassinate the most enemy daimyos.
War generals: All daimyos who create military leaders personally.

To be fair, I guess the competition will finish after Keich last turn so that every player has the same number of turns. Good luck to everyone! :thumbsup:

Shure, thats why we are here. So, i say let the game begin.

Some thoughts: in fact of the different time zones, we should decide on how we can manage the correct timing of the posts. As example, scoutsout wanna have moved his daimyo to city xy, but i close my connection about 17 o'clock my time. So i missed to read his post and didn't move his daimyo.
So should we wait until each member has posted his move wishings?

As for suggestions, I suggest to switch the temple in Nagoya to settler, connect the dyes and upgrade the remaining ashigaru. Barbs are near Ichinomiya, so you may consider switching that temple to bushi or stone xbow or send some garrison there (it would also allow to drop lux).

IMHO, there is no need for archives yet as we are first in tech.

Go after Date or Hojo if you like. :hammer: If you decide to go that way, send my daimyo near the action. Otherwise, send my daimyo near the mil buildup so I can start the action. ;)

@fbouthil: Is it permissible to take another Daimyo along as an escort? Since the AI also have 5 Daimyo, a Daimyo might get wounded killing and enemy Daimyo and be vulnerable to counterattack.

I vote for pushing east against the Hojo. When we take them out it will open up lands to be settled, and while it is unsettled we will get some barb camps that we can use to finish training our regular Daimyo. We need to get everyone's Daimyo to veteran status before attacking enemy Daimyo.

Scoutsout, You could do that by making a deal with another player: If you defend my daimyo during my turn, I will defend yours during your turn.

You may also want to decide if defending against units counts for the kills. If so, a non-active players daimyo can get credit for kills.

[Edit: where defend means move the non-active daimyo to the same square as the active one - no attacks (of course).]

@Greebley: :wavey: You raise an interesting point... and something that would lend itself well to a six-member SG team...

I'll let fbouthil simply make the call on whether defensive kills count. Since the Daimyo are part of the regicide victory condition, I'd rather finish the game with all of our Daimyo than get all excited about winning the competition within the game.

On Daimyo "buddy teams": I think it would make sense to pair up Daimyo based on the order of play, and NOT pair up Daimyo that immediately precede or follow another Daimyo in play.. to allow time for healing and pre-positioning. Starting with the order of go:

Daimyo Oda Keich
Daimyo Oda Detlef Richter
Daimyo Oda fbouthil
Daimyo Oda bed_head7
Daimyo Oda Scoutsout

So let's say it's Detlef's turn, and he takes my Daimyo with him as a body guard. After he's lost a few hp, my daimyo can escort him home to heal. Using this... I suggest these as bodyguard/player pairs (active Daimyo in bold):

D.O. bed_head7/D.O. Keich
D.O. scoutsout/D.O. Detlef Richter
D.O. Keich/D.O. fbouthil
D.O. Detlef Richter/D.O. bed_head7
D.O. fbouthil/D.O. scoutsout

It's a good idea, but i don't know if we can handle this. The other daimyo have to be in the near of his second part.

Scoutscout's list looks good, he set it up so there should be plenty of time to move the daiymos close to each other for each pairing.

If I understand correctly, Detlef Richter would use Scoutsout as bodyguard. He would also move Keich & fbouthil together in a useful spot for my turn. On my turn, I would break the Detlef Richter/Scoutsout pair to move Detlef Richter with bed_head7. I like that.

As for defensive kills, I think there will be very few of those as Daimyo are kings units and any unit on the same tile will defend even if the daimyo has a better defensive rating. I do not have strong feelings either way, but I think I will count them. I imagine some future posts:

":worship: Please use my daimyo as only bodyguard as I need only a few kill to be first for the golden katana! :worship:"

":love: Thank you for giving me extra defensive kills!"

":ar15: Are you crazy using my daimyo as bodyguard near a large army like that? You are going to get my daimyo killed! :ar15:"

:rotfl:

You got the strat, fbouthil! :thumbsup:

I don't know if this strat, brings us an AM (always move) competition. :lol:

Who cares, let's try and see how this works.

1485 Juli: Gifu builds worker, next worker
Oda Detlef kills barb ashigaru to protect the healing Oda Bed_head7
Oda Keich & Oda Scout moves to Hojo territory (I plan to DoW
them)
changed Nagoja to barracks
changed Ichinamoya to worker

1486 Jan: Ichinamoya builds worker, next settler

1486 Juli: moved Oda Fbouthil, Oda Detlef and Oda Bed_Head7 to Hojo border

1487 Jan: nothing special

1487 Juli: Nagoya builds barracks, next bushi

1488 Jan: nothing again

1488 Juli: Seto builds bushi, next bushi

1489 Jan: DoW Hojo ( :D let the game begin)

1489 Juli: Oda Detlef kills Hojo ashigaru and loose 2HP
we loose ashigaru against ashigaru
bushi kills ashigaru and loose 1HP

1490 Jan: Wow, 3 or more ashigarus per city, means an tough one and we
need defnetly more units.
the 2 wounded units retriet to heal

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sengoku1490pic1.JPG

I see the bodyguard idea was extended to include all daimyos. Cool! :cool:

Why did you attack Togane? It is going to be destroyed if we conquer it, right? I much prefer to occupy conquered cities as it makes our empire grow. I think I will move my troops toward Tsuchiuru instead (attacking from NW to prevent river penalty).

Hojo has 5 cities, so I guess it is one daimyo per city. If I think I will conquer a city near the end of my turns, I will move bed_head7 & bodyguard toward the next city.

I want to switch Nagoya to settler and Ichinomiya to bushi or stone xbow as Nagoya has a faster growth and Ichinomiya is closer to Hojo. I will also connect the dyes.

By the way, who counts for our competition. Can we have an update after each round?

@Detlef Richter: I will count and post a summary after each round, right after Keich turn. If I count correctly, you have 2 confirmed kills.

It is actually very important that you do not take cities that will be auto-razed. Remember, the AI is spreading out its kings to each of its cities, so there might be a king in that town. Take the juciest spots first, ie the capital, and whenever we find the last king, then we know were to not attack until all of the other towns are taken.

Jan 1490AD (0) - preturn
Switch Nagoya to settler and Ichinomiya to stone x-bow (mm to get it in 1t so it gets to Tsuchiuru at the same time as the 2 bushis)

IBT
Mogami wants pottery: refuse as they are way too far to make us any damage.
Produce a stone x-bow and a worker

Jul 1490AD (1)
Our stone x-bow spots Ainu Ronin

IBT - Ainu Ronin moves towards Tsuchiuru.

Jan 1491AD (2)
Moving toward Tsuchiuru and next to Ainu Ronin. It has a very low chance of winning against a shogun-3 anyway (river, forest, fast defender).

IBT - Ainu Ronin attacks fbouthil who wins, but 1 hp left! :dubious: I thought I was giving a kill to another daimyo!

Jul 1491AD (3)
Moving to safety for healing. Other forces moving toward Tsuchiuru.
Switch Seto to xbow as 2 settlers are coming and I did not keep any escort for them! Oups!
Increase lux to 30% to prevent Nagoya from rioting.

IBT - Produce 2 settlers, 1 xbow.

Jan 1492AD (4)
Reduce lux to 10%.

IBT - Hojo xbow moves close one of our bushi.

Jul 1492AD (5)
Every civs but us know Sojutsu but we are close to discovering it ourselves and no one gives a fair price for it.
Bushi kills xbow near Togane
bed_head7 goes scouting and spots Hojo xbow coming from Katsuura

IBT
Hojo wants peace, not yet!
Build xbow, barrack
lux to 20% to prevent riots.
xbow moves close to bed_head7

Jan 1493AD (6)
Fortifies bed_head7 in mountain.
Attack on Tsuchiuru: Kill 3 ashigaru with bushis.

IBT - Hojo xbow gets scratched passing next to bed_head7.

Jul 1493AD (7)
Bushi defeated trying to finish Hojo xbow. A stobburn little guy. [pissed]
Found Tajimi & Takefu
No one else can get to that xbow so I take care of him myself without a scratch. :nya:
Kill another ashigaru in Tsuchiru (for a total of 4)
Keich releaves bed_head7 for scouting duties as we are becoming close to bed_head7's turn.
Move Scoutsout & Detlef Richter for upgrades in Ichinomiya on bed_head7's turn.

IBT - Takeda xbow appears near Gifu

Jan 1494AD (8)
Kill 2 ashigaru in Tsuchiuru leaving a settler as defender! (for total 6 ashigarus)
Move myself next to it.

IBT
Dyes connected.
Takeda xbow moves S
Disease in Ogaki

Jul 1494AD (9)
Switch Ogaki to worker as disease would prevents building the settler. :(
xbow bombards Hojo daimyo with success.

It was a quiet and beautiful morning of July near Tsuchiuru. The calm before the storm considering the deadly battle that was about to start.

fbouthil: Hojo! Surrender or die! :gripe:
Hojo: Never! Come face me yourself if you are man enough! [pissed]
fbouthil: Certainly! I am dying for this moment! :evil:

I hold my Katana high while walking carefully towards him. Hojo seemed very nervious, holding his the rusted wooden katana, :shakehead but launched a surprisingly fierced attack. Locked in a deadly embrace, we battled in the forest. We battled in the streets. We battled on the walls of the palace of Tsuchiuru. Both covered with sweat, Hojo launched a desperate attack aiming to cut my head. I bent down to evade his trust and plundge my katana in his heart. The last sight of the dying daimyo was the red sun about to set by now. :banana:

Send bed_head7 toward Tsuchiuru for upgrade. I should have done this the previous turn, but since Sojutsu is in 2t, there is no harm done.
Reduce lux to 10%

Jan 1495AD (10) - start building roads between Tsuchiuru and our empire.

I end my turn with 3 kills including a daimyo. groucho

The xbow and bushi SW of Tsuchiuru are actually going E to intercept Hojo xbow. Rivers forced a strange path, moving back to go forward faster.

The Hojo capital moved to Chiba (pretty far). They are willing to give their 2 closest cities for peace. I suggest accepting peace and move our forces toward Date, but will let bed_head7 decide.

Tsuchiuru had 6 defending ashigarus. The lone stone x-bow of the invasion force bombarded with success 4 times out of 5 tries.

Nicely done! :goodjob:

...and yes - free cities sound good. That's 2 fewer settlers we need to build.

Edit: How does one get a "rusted wooden katana"?

Got it, and will play sometime later tonight. I get to do homework first!

Jan., 1495 AD (90) - Made peace with Hojo and got the two cities. Means I won't be getting any Daimyo kills anytime soon, but we don't seem to have a whole lot for waging war.

Jul., 1495 AD (91) - I switched Nagoya to settler since it needed a specialist to stay happy at size 6. With that building a settler, I switched Ogaki to Peasant Worker. Maybe I'll make a move toward the Date soon. But before that, I decide to give Masonry plus 22 gold to the Date for Mathematics. And trade Mathematics away to the Otomo and Hojo for 70 gold total. Wheel is due in 4 with 0 surplus gpt, and Daimyo Oda upgrading has begun, starting with myself and my bodyguard Detlef, though we have gold for the rest.

Jan., 1496 AD (92) - Moving Bushi and stone crossbow towards the mountain outside the Date capital

Jul., 1496 AD (93) - Looks like the Takeda may want to settle in the tundra to our south. Might have to do something about that.

Jan., 1497 AD (94) - Final Daimyo Oda, our leader fbouthil, is upgraded, making upgrades complete for the time being.

Jul., 1497 AD (95) - The Wheel finishes, will start on Map Making (we ought to get some more contacts) in 6 at 3 gpt. Give the Takeda a warning, which is pointless. I forgot I can't give leave or declare if it is only one offensive and one settler. Ogaki finishes Peasant worker and begins construction on our first catapult. We could still use some workers, but our core is starting to have all the improvement it needs for the time being since our towns aren't all that big.

Jan., 1498 AD (96) - I demand the recently acquired Ancestor Worship from the Date, they refuse, we are at war now. I could get it from the Takeda if we really needed it anyway, but I would rather extort it the peace.

Jul., 1498 AD (97) - The Date volunteer two of their workers who had been planning to settle in what is our territory by right, though a Bushi helped persuade them by killing their Ashigaru escort. I attack an Ashigaru (as in my Daimyo) since there are 50-50 odds I will win without losing an hp, hoping for upgrade to vet. My poor Daimyo is just a slow learner I guess, because he loses an hp and fails to upgrade, but at least he got his first registered kill. There is one Ashigaru and the Daimyo left in the Date capital, and hopefully in my last turn I will be able to capture it and enter the race for the golden Katana.

Jan., 1499 AD (98) - My guess was correct. The Bushi I brought along wins flawlessly again, and reveals the regular Daimyo Oda Masamune (2.2.2). I am also able to give the Takeda the boot order with their second settler pair, even though I don't know that they would have found any territory to their liking (not enough space for an AI), though we have room for another town next to the jade in the forest. Healing turn for Daimyo Oda bed_head7, and I am moving my successor and his body guard towards the action, but I am assuming that they should stay in Oda territory.

Jul., 1499 AD (99) - The Bushi again dispatches a regular Ashigaru in Miyako without losing a single hp. Bed_head7 moves back into action. Stone crossbows have 2 firepower or whatever it is called. They can bombard and take two hp, is what I am trying to say, but can't remember what it is called, but it isn't firepower. Daimyo-less units in the south are moving towards Hirosaki.

Jan., 1500 AD (100) - Bombard the enemy Daimyo down to one hp, so even as a regular my odds are really good. They almost weren't good enough though, as my Daimyo scares the hell out of me and loses two hp before turning it around and capturing the Date capital. Whew! I bring Daimyo Oda's fbouthil and scoutsout right outside the capital as well, so Daimyo Oda scoutsout can figure out where he wants to go next but has absolutely no chance of seeing combat). Units outside Hirosaki kill two Ashigaru, with at least one Ashigaru and probably a Daimyo remaining.

Final notes: Seto could have a grassland moved back to forest dyes next turn, but this turn it doesn't need the shields. And Nagoya will grow to 7 soon and have unhappiness issues without an MP, so we could switch it to settler to fill the last bit of space or keep it at 6 with 10spt and a Bushi every 3. I am sure you would have noticed both of those things scoutsout. Temples were auto chosen in the cities that we recieved in peace from the Hojo, and I haven't changed them since 10 shields will only build an Ashigaru and we don't need any of those and it lets scoutsout decide what is best for an unproductive town with no terrain improvements. Togane is still very unhappy with us and has a taxman for that reason, but a road is in progress which should change that. Takefu was and is still working on barracks, but I don't know if we need barracks in such an unproductive place. I think that about covers it. Have fun and kill some Daimyo Date.

Final unit kill for Daimyo Oda bed_head7: 1 ashigaru, 1 Daimyo Date

Nice turn bed_head7! :hatsoff:

BTW, does anyone know what happens to the units in a city when it is given to another civ? I always thought they were disbanded. If this is the case does that mean we have 2 less Hojo daimyo to worry about? :confused:

So, here we are:

Daimyo Oda Keich (on deck)
Daimyo Oda Detlef Richter
Daimyo Oda fbouthil
Daimyo Oda bed_head7
Daimyo Oda Scoutsout (up)

:hmm: I realize it has been more than 24h and Scoutsout has not yet post a got it. I guess I have to skip his turn since he is missing in action.

Keich, it is your turn then.

@Scoutsout: You can still play your turn if you post a got it before Keich. Otherwise, because this is your first offense, I will let you take your turn after Keich if you like.

Remember that you can swap your turn with the next player if you cannot play your turn when you are up and you ask for it. You can also ask for an extention. I am very accomodating.

If many players think a 24h "got it" is not long enough, we could change it to 48h. We should have discuss about this before it happened though.

Or maybe Scoutsout is refusing to talk to me because I did not answer his question about rusted wooden katana? Well, I do not actually know. Hojo had one, not me and the dead do not reveal their secrets. :crazyeye:

I got it I got it I got it..

I'm terribly sorry - I was up in Bede2 and in SGOTM - both nasty slugfests.

Edit: I finished those slugfests this morning, and because of the "thread aging" thing, this one dropped off my radar screen briefly, and I didn't catch the previous turnlog.

@fbouthil: that post you made put this one back on my screen. I'll look over the log and play tomorrow.

Thats good, I won't be able to play this weekend.

Good! I was actually feeling bad skipping Scoutsout's turn after all the suggestions he made lately.

I must admit that "thread aging" thing is kind a getting on my nerves. [pissed] As a programmer, it seems easy to keep a thread in the list of new subscribed threads until it is actually visited. You only need to compare the date of the last visit of a thread with the date of the last post. :gripe:

BTW, I am not really mad about it. I just really like the gripe smilly.

Pre-flight check... scroll through our cities.. I'm not sure why we've got irrigated grass at Tsuchiuru. Do we have some automated workers? Oh wait - that's a captured city. :crazyeye:

IBT - Something got killed at Miyako, but it wasn't a Daimyo.
Map Making comes in, queue up CoL. Seto Bushi>Bushi | Ichinomiya Bushi>Settler | Gifu Peasant Worker>Worker Tajimi Catapult>Catapult.

Turn 1 (July 1500) Move D.O. Kiech to the capitol. D.O. Scout kills a 2/4 Date Crossbow south of Miyako. D.O. fbouthil follows.

IBT - not much

Turn 2 (Jan 1501) fbouthil and scout move towards Morioka with a stone crossbow.

IBT - Nagoya Bushi>Settler

Turn 3 (Jul 1501) There is a Takeda Shogun-1 wandering through Date lands with a regular Ashigaru as an escort. Since it is too early to start a war with the Takeda, I think I will try to position the next player to kill it. On second thought...bad idea... but everybody make a mental note that there will be an enemy Daimyo in that green town to the south of us.

Wake up bed_head's Daimyo... dang... he's still a regular. There is a solitary regular Date crossbow N-NW of Miyako. I know this is poor form to attack using another's Daimyo without permission, but I try to get him promoted in a low-risk combat. I posess bed_head's Daimyo, and flawlessly kill the stone crossbow. But bed_head's daimyo apparently did not learn anything from the engagement, and he fails to promote.

I move 2 stone crossbows and 2 Bushi towards Hirosaki.

Turn 3 (Jan 1502) D.O. Scout kills an Ashigaru at Morioka. Two Bushi make short work of two Ashigaru. I lose a stone crossbow to a third Ashigaru, but the second crossbow kills it, Revealing Daimyo Date Masamune! By this stage of the game I've started assembling some workers into small stacks of 3, which is generally more efficient...

IBT - The Date request and audience, and are rebuffed. Ogaki Catapult>worker

Turn 4 (Jul 1502) Time for a little trading...
Masonry to Ogami for 20g+WM
Wheel to Takeda for Ancestor Worship.
Code of Laws+WM for our WM+170g

Oh man this is a big world...and we need some contacts for tech trading... Change Takefu to galley, and organize a forest chop.

I lose 1 Bushi attacking a stone crossbow in the mountains outside Mutsu.

IBT - Nagoya Settler>Bushi (We will need settlers to replace auto-razed cities.)
Seto Bushi>Bushi | ichinomiya Settler>Bushi | Kariya Stone Crossbow>Bushi

Turn 5 (Jan 1503)
The Otomo have uncovered the secrets of Shinto Precepts. Gift Ancestor worship to the Mogami to get somebody else working on that tech to lower the price.

D.O. Scout whacks the enemy Daimyo at Hirosaki, and the city is ours.

IBT - Toki Bushi>Spearman

Turn 6 (July 1503) tempted to swap Nagoya to Archives...Ichinomiya needs a border expansion to get 2 Bonus Grass tiles...swap to achives. D.O. Scout whacks a Date crossbow, fails promotion. The Otomo will sell us Shinto Precepts for WM+140g+15gpt. I decide to wait.

IBT - Ogaki Worker>Worker

Turn 7 - (Jan 1504) As I suspected, The Otomo sold Shinto Precepts to someone else. I now buy it off the Takeda for our World Map. The Otomo now have Currency, which I buy for WM+140g+6gpt.
After taking a hit from a crossbow, D.O. Scout whacks one Ashigaru.

IBT- nada

Turn 8 (July, 1504) I lost a Grandmaster level Crossbow to a Date Crossbow. Dangit. Some Bushi I sent to the north make short work of the garrison at mutsu, and I take a screenie to show you guys the value of the "combat settlers" I built.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/fbo_sengoku_AUTORAZE.jpg

IBT - We've got a Hojo settler pair trespassing...

Turn 9 (Jan 1505) Positioning Keich and bed_head for a follow on campaign in the south.

IBT - we equip some more peasant workers, build a catapult, and get our first boat in the water.

Turn 10 (April 1505) Bushi whacks an Ashigaru at Morioka. D.O. Scout whacks an Ashigaru.

D.O. Keich and D.O. bed_head advance into Date territory, accompanied by 2 Catapults, 2 Bushi, and a Stone Crossbow. D.O. Scout and fbouthil retire from the field, leaving a 3/4 Bushi to join the advancing forces.

After Action Review:

In preparing this log for posting, it looks like I accidentally took an extra turn. I really should use the fingers on both hands when I count. :blush: If you guys want me to play just 9 turns next go-round, that'll suit. And fbouthil, if you want to deduct one Ashigaru from my kill total below that would probably be fair as well...

I got us some techs. :D

Scout's Daimyo kills:
Ashigaru: 4
Stone Crossbows: 2
Enemy Daimyo: 1

bed_head's Daimyo got a kill against a stone crossbow, trying to get him promoted to Vet status. My reasoning in the log, if that offends, I apologize.

We have 2 "combat settlers" on the former site of Mutsu, one can found a town on the rockpile next turn. I sent our Daimyo to the Southwest, a smalle gamble that there are no enemy Daimyo in that last Date town in the north. There are some Bushi and some crossbows up there. I'm betting that town will auto-raze and simply need to be replaced. It's a good idea to have a few combat settlers on hand in this scenario, because when you kill the last enemy Daimyo any cities from that tribe will auto-raze right then.

We have a galley in the water that needs to sail west to make contact with the other tribes... and there are several. We can't trade techs with them if we don't meet them.

When Construction comes in we should probably start evaluating our towns for a possible palace pre-builds for the Great Library somewhere... though this is not imminent.

A little bit of infrastructure (markets and libraries) will help in our core cities.

If you are using Mapstat you will still need to check Diplomacy every single turn. Mapstat doesn't recognize these scenario techs. With all the civs in this scenario, this game can get away from us if we don't do some tech-trading.

> > The Save < < (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Fbo1_1505Apr.SAV)

I didn't have any problem with your use of my Daimyo. I appreciate any use that could get mine to a veteran, since that boosts combat odds by so much. And MapStat showed techs to me. I saw that everyone had Sojutsu on MapStat. Maybe you don't have the latest version? Although I hadn't heard anything about scenario changes.

Wow! I am starting to understand what Detlef Richter said about having no chances of beating Scoutsout in the competitions!

I won't count the kill on turn 11, and bed_head7 kill either as it was not a defensive kill. I understand why you tried to make him a veteran as it is a bit upsetting having a regular daimyo.

Keich, you are up!

@fbouthill: I like to whack stuff. I'm looking forward to the upgrade that gives our Daimyo blitz capability. :D

@bed_head: I'll check my version of Dianthus' utility. It wouldn't surprise me if he's updated it recently. Thanks.

@Keich: if it looks like you will be able to finish off the Date on your turns, consider moving my Daimyo and Detlef's eastward... I think we ought to go ahead and finish the Hojo off before our forces extend too much further westward. Don't send more than one or two Bushi with our Daimyo, as we already have 3 Bushi and a Stone Crossbow in the east.

My thinking is that under variant rules (must use Daimyo to kill Daimyo) we don't want to let our Daimyo get too far to the west with Hojo Daimyo that need to be killed.

Of course...that plan is subject to approval by fbouthil and Detlef...

Got it! Hmm...how many kills can my dayimo get...

Got it! Hmm...how many kills can my dayimo get...If you're going after Ashigaru, several. And I think I saw the Date shuffle a few stone crossbows in there as I was withdrawing my daimyo. Those are easy kills... But be careful! Stone Crossbows get a freeshot. My advice: Bombard with the cats...and consider leading with a Bushi, then attack with your Daimyo. My guess is that if you let the bushi absorb the crossbow freeshot, your daimyo will stay healthier longer...and finish off a Date Daimyo, rather than being forced to retreat and heal. Don't let your Daimyo (move 2) outrun the rest of the troops, and you'll be fine.

Of course...that plan is subject to approval by fbouthil and Detlef...
I would tend to agree with your plan, but doesn't the whole team have the right to approve or not? :eek:

If there is still only 2 Hojo cities, I guess Detlef Richter should be able to crush them completely. In that case, I should still be on the W front against the next civ, Takeda IIRC.

Does anyone think we should build TGWall or is it too early to build a wonder? I think the best time for a GA is right after the switch to feudalism, before the other civs get a better defending unit than spearman.

I would tend to agree with your plan, but doesn't the whole team have the right to approve or not? :eek: Well... you're the team leader, and Detlef would have to implement the plan... so you two would hold the "veto" votes, if you will.

...and yes, the Takeda would be the logical next target...

Great Wall isn't bad...right now we've got a market build going in one city and a Library (Archives) build going in another...so I think it's a little early to build a wonder just yet. Some of our cities still need some worker turns too...

Thats what i wanna have done since all the time... V E T O ... no, not really. But i love it. :lol:
If i understand the rules right:

I for me and at my turn, can kill what i wanna kill (have to kill). All together with my sniper (I think it's scoutsout or perhaps one of the others).
With the rest of us, i can only move to somewhere lands or a declared destination. Without attacking, only defending. So all approvals can be done if the RNG god wants.

I am not sure what you mean exactly by sniper. We talked about bodyguards, meaning your daimyo moves with another daimyo so that if your daimyo is wounded, the other would protect him.

What I thought originally was that the only thing you could do with the daimyo of other players was to move them where they asked. They cannot initiate attacks, but can defend against enemy attacks.

It was modified so that you can move the daimyo of other players as you see fit. Of course, as for every SG, discussions and suggestions are wellcome, especially about what to do with those daimyo.

Scoutsout talked about pairing daimyos for bodyguard duties. I do not think we stuck to it as any unit moving with a daimyo will be a bodyguard. I used some daimyo as scouts to spot approaching enemy units by moving them to mountains near borders.

I think the most important thing is to put the daimyo of the next player in a favorable position for his turn. Keeping that in mind, Scoutsout suggested to get rid of the Hojo and that would mean moving your daimyo near their borders so that you could attack them.

Remember that enemy daimyos can only be attacked by your own daimyo although they can be bombarded. Once we get ronins and ninjas, they can assassinate enemy daimyos as well.

Is that clear Detlef Richter?

I think the most important thing is to put the daimyo of the next player in a favorable position for his turn. I agree 110% with this. Each player needs to consider where the next player's daimyo (and the bodyguard) need to go before the end of his turns. That's why I advanced D.O. Keich and D.O. bed_head one tile into into Date territory on my last turn, so they could go straight into combat. If the stupid catapults hadn't been so sluggish, they'd have been next to the city.
Keeping that in mind, Scoutsout suggested to get rid of the Hojo and that would mean moving your daimyo near their borders so that you could attack them.That's exactly what I was thinking. I think that will finish the Hojo, and give Detlef some good kills. Remember that enemy daimyos can only be attacked by your own daimyo although they can be bombarded. Once we get ronins and ninjas, they can assassinate enemy daimyos as well.If you look closely at my log, you'll note that my Daimyo went from one city to another to finish off the enemy Daimyo that turned out to be the last defender in the Date city that I captured...and that was the reason. We should all get some enemy Daimyo kills... we've got a ways to go before we get ninja and ronin.

Pre-flight: Everything looks good. I don't like the Hojo settler in our area...but we can deal with it later.

IBT: Date crossbowman takes down a bushi.

Jul, 1505: Lots of undefended cities...move some troops around.

Oct, 1505: The troops reach Morioka, and can attack next turn. Seeing an peasant on top of the stack, My diaymo waltzes in, and slices out his heart with a spoon easily.

Jan, 1506: 3 defenders in the town...should be fun! Hmm...at least 3 defenders in the northern date town as well...I lose one bushi up north, and kill 2 off. Down south we peck off some hp with our pults, and send in the team. 1 bushi kills peasant, bedhead kills a stone crossbow and promotes! I send bedhead in again, hoping for a promotion vs a 1hp peasant, but he doesn't get it. Now there is a worker on top of the town...guess there is a king there. Here I go! I kill the leader easily, we take the city, and 2 workers.

IBT: The Saito have completed the Oracle in Tonami.

April, 1506: We move troops around and rest a bit. I think I can take the northen date land next turn.

I must stop here, as I have a VERY important question: Let's say that -hypothetically- we lose 2 Daiymos, 2 catapults, a crossbowman, and 2-3 bushi because a city we JUST TOOK flipped even though there was only 1 measly citizen in the town. This is all hypothetical, of course. But is this something we would re-load, or roll with? I only ask because I am curious what we should do in this potentially hypotheical situation, not that it hypothetically happened, of course.

I must stop here, as I have a VERY important question: Let's say that -hypothetically- we lose 2 Daiymos, 2 catapults, a crossbowman, and 2-3 bushi because a city we JUST TOOK flipped even though there was only 1 measly citizen in the town. This is all hypothetical, of course. But is this something we would re-load, or roll with? I only ask because I am curious what we should do in this potentially hypotheical situation, not that it hypothetically happened, of course.[/i]We roll with it. "Reloading" is generally regarded as cheating, and sticking to your guns and avoiding this practice is one step you need to take to really improve your game. My position on culture flips is a "matter of record" in at least one GOTM discussion thread. I hate them, but I accept them as part of the game.

If you look through the spoilers for GOTM31 (the France game) you'll see one of my "Scout's Ouch" posts, in which I lost an ARMY to an Iroquois culture flip. If you dig through Bede1 (a long-completed SG) you will find a point in which I lost a BUNCH of troops (including a Cavalry Army) to a culture flip in a size 1 town that had a single happy citizen. That one flip stalled an entire campaign.

The best way to deal with culture flips is to post a minimal garrison in recently conquered towns, put strong troops outside the town, and simply re-take it after it flips. The best way to take this lesson to heart is to deal with the pain...

I agree, we roll with it. I agree that Scoutsout tactics in case of flip is sound, but I must admit that I rarely stick to it. It may be a bad tactic, but as soon that all my troops are healed, they head for the next town. I also consult CrpMapStats and my troops heal in conquered cities when I have enough troops (which is probably not the case here).

Interesting situation though. Taking cities from the Date who have high culture, we cannot starve the city (size 1) or rush culture (despotism). You seem to have enough troops to finish the Date in your turns which would stop any chances of flips to them. I think you have an extra settler that could settle at or near the last Date city since it will be destroyed. :evil: Have fun destroying them.

BTW, the variant I suggested was that you DO NOT attack with the daimyo of other players. Please stick to it.

Since you will probably finish the Date, I suggest you move Detlef Richter so that he can attack Hojo on his turns. You could even DoW on Hojo on your turn 9 or so and move Detlef Richter next to a town so he can attack it with his daimyo on his preturn if you feel like it.

You could even DoW on Hojo on your turn 9 or so and move Detlef Richter next to a town so he can attack it with his daimyo on his preturn if you feel like it.IIRC, there were 3 Bushi and a stone crossbow in our eastern-most town that could also be used against the Hojo. and if Keich can finish of the Date quickly enough, he could use his daimyo to whack that Hojo settler pair and get another kill...

Yes, this sounds good. I need some fighting. Have we something like catapults right now?

Yes, the tech for catapults has been researched, and if I remember correctly I started building two of them, so we should have at least a couple at this point.

Yes, the tech for catapults has been researched, and if I remember correctly I started building two of them, so we should have at least a couple at this point.
We may have one or two more in the build queue...but we do have at least those two that JD built. Turn 10 (April 1505) ...D.O. Keich and D.O. bed_head advance into Date territory, accompanied by 2 Catapults, 2 Bushi, and a Stone Crossbow.

:wavey: Hello Keich! Are you there? It has been 2 and a half days since your last post and 5 days since your got it, are you having some kind of computer problems?

:hmm: As I already said, this is the first SG I started, so I do not know how long I am supposed to wait before I do something more drastic like skipping Keich's turn or something like that. I would prefer not having to do that.

I someone knows the rules about that, I would really like to know. Otherwise, I guess I will give 24h for Keich to answer this post by at least saying if and when he expects to finish his turns. Of course, if Keich is having problems with his computer, maybe we have been waiting for too long already for no reasons. :(

@fbouthil: As our host, you get to set the rules. 24/48 is fairly standard, though with players on multiple continents I would probably go relax that to a 36/48± rule if I was in your shoes... and give a player a little more than 48 hours to play if they ask for it ("I have an exam the day after tomorrow, but can play after that"...)

I would consider your last post "fair warning", and skip to the next player if he doesn't post in 24 hours.... or perhaps swap him with bed_head, since I think I left his Daimyo in position with Keich's to go after that Date city....

Keich has not answered so Detlef Richter, you are up. Take it from the last save. If Keich comes back, we will see if he can take back his turn. :(

So here are the statistics for the first round of competition:

Daimyo__________Daimyo kills__Other kills__Assassinations
Detlef Richter________0__________2____________0
fbouthil_____________1__________2____________0
bed_head7__________1__________1____________0
Scoutsout___________1__________5____________0
Keich (missing)

Daimyo Hunter: nobody, contenders: fbouthil, bed_head7, Scoutsout
Golden Katana: Scoutsout
Ninja Master: nobody
Samourai General: nobody

If I remember correctly, after Scoutsout's turn, about one half of the Date cities were conquered/destroyed. I guess Detlef Richter should destroy the rest of them and move me (and a few attacking units) toward the Hojo so I can finish them on my turn. Move Keich with me in case he can retake his turn after you.

I was out of internet yesterday. So i can say 'got it' now.

My turns:

1505 Juli: moved Oda scout to Hirosaki (to heal his wounds)
moved Oda Keich and Oda Bed_Head7 to Miyoko (for a little break)

Okt: found Honda
Oda Detlef killed 1 Date Ashigaru

Jan: Oda Detlef killed 1 Date Ashigaru
my friend Oda fbouthill killed 1 Date Daimyo and captured Morioka

Apr: Saitoen build Oracle
Hojo declared war on us after a territory bann :mischief:

Jul: captured Hojo settler

Okt: nothing

1507 Jan: Oda Detlef killed 1 Date Ashigaru

Apr: Oda Detlef killed 2 Date Ashigaru

Juli: Oda Detlef killed 2 Date Ashigaru

Okt: Oda Detlef killed Date Daimyo and captured Ichinoseki

Sorry, i lost the control about my fingers. I pressed space after my last turn, but made no moves.
There is only one Date Daimyo left.

@Detlef Richter: Good turn! 1 daimyo and 6 other kills! Wow!

On the other hand, I see you did not understand the variant: You attacked using my daimyo and my daimyo is really far from the action! I need at least 4 turns to go to the Date or Hojo city and I can't even move my daimyo in the preturn! :( Oh well! I guess I deserve it since I did the same mistake for bed_head7 in the previous turn.

Since Keich is really close to the action (next to Hojo xbow) and in a much better position to take his turn, I will give him the possibility to retake his turn now, if he posts a got it in the next 24h.

Otherwise, this will be my got it and I will play tomorrow night. Of course, I will check to see if Keich has post a got it before I start playing and will post before I start playing if he does not.

On the other hand, I see you did not understand the variant: You attacked using my daimyo and my daimyo is really far from the action! I need at least 4 turns to go to the Date or Hojo city and I can't even move my daimyo in the preturn! :( Oh well! I guess I deserve it since I did the same mistake for bed_head7 in the previous turn.That might have been a 'target of opportunity...or a situation in which an enemy Daimyo was exposed or wounded, and yours was handy... another variant rule is that enemy daimyo can only be killed by our daimyo, right?

That was exactly the situation. I bombed him down to 1 HP but my daimyo had no more movements. The Date Daimyo asked me to free his seoul. I couldn't say no.
Don't forget fbouthill, you have to kill another Date daimyo at his last town. Thats why i have not moved you to the Hojo territory. I think 10 turns are enough for Date and Hojo.

Ok. Keich has not made any sign of life so I guess he is a casualty of war (I guess he dropped out). Therefore, I will play right now.

If I calculate correctly, I can do the following:
- Go to the Date city in 4t, then go to Chiba (Hojo) and arrive there on turn 9 which would leave me 1t to attack it but it would leave Ashikaga (Hojo) intact.
- Go to Chiba (Hojo) in 5t and attack it. Go to Ashikaga (Hojo) on turn 7 and attack it (turn 8).

I think I could have pulled it off if I started next to the Date city but I don't see how I can do it that far from the Date city. I will go with the second option as it would put bed_head7 in a better position to attack Takeda afterward.

Before I start, I see that Ichinoseki has a strong chance of flipping to Takeda (2% each turn) and I cannot see what I can do about it (size 1 and CrpMapStats says I would need 47 units as garrison).

Jan 1508 (1)
I Start moving toward Chiba.
Kill Hojo xbow near Ashikaga.

IBT
another Hojo xbow appears near Ashikaga
Build a worker and a bushi
I start TGWall in Nagoya as I think we can ti