These are always a bone to pick, balancing gold with science with luxuries, and this thread is to pick that bone. This discussion will stay here for as long as I'm Domestic Minister, and later if any future minister wishes to take it over.


Current slider settings:

Current GPT:

Turns until completion of research:

Okay, here we go. Provided we settle on a river tile, we will have a 3-commerce income to distribute via the slider. I propose that all (100%) of this go to our research, as we will have no need for gold at this early juncture. Any other suggestions?

Official Ministry proposal: 100% Science, 0% Luxuries

nope, thats what I always do until I cant afford it

I agree with your approach. On slider instructions, please post them as ranges. In particular, we want the DP to find the highest percentage which doesn't break some GPT rule (for now, 0gpt), and then use the lowest percentage which results in the same number of turns on the research. Another (preferred!) approach is to say we want max science or min science and leave the specifics to the DP, since it will be an age or so before we'll want to choose anything else. :D

"In particular, we want the DP to find the highest percentage which doesn't break some GPT rule (for now, 0gpt), and then use the lowest percentage which results in the same number of turns on the research."

Yeah, as a standard rule, this is good. If we can get away with 100% science go for it. If 90 -80% is better for us, use them. When we only have one turn left for research completion, move the slider to the left as far as we can while not adding an extra turn of research.

When we only have one turn left for research completion, move the slider to the left as far as we can while not adding an extra turn of research.

I've done this in some cases where it says 1 turn left, yet on the next turn research did not complete, it took 2 turns.

Make it so. 100% science will get us in the way of Wonders, albeit goddie huts will be more fructuous in this part of the game.

I've done this in some cases where it says 1 turn left, yet on the next turn research did not complete, it took 2 turns.

That's probably because you built some units, or added to the luxury slider, or you income was changed with laborer movement, or maybe your computer just cheats like mine does. :cry:

BTW, longer is ok. I've nused along a city prebuilding a Palace to snag a Wonder by the skin of it's teeth and had the research rate skip 10 turns without any real cause. Apparently the research rate is based on some wild formula running around inside Sid's head. It involves the number of cities you have, how many dates you've eaten that day, if Mars is in line with Venus, etc.

CYC you forgot the two key ingredients of the formula for research turns remaining - the all powerful random number generator and r, the measure of how much you really really really need the tech that turn (where t = turns remaining increases as r increases).

Now that we have met the babs maybe we should cut science so that we are earning at least 1 gold per turn.

I agree Gulliver. Your suggestion would be a mjor part of the plan I posted in the Babylonian Trade thread.

I would like science to maximize research (it isnt important is it 20 or 100% we just need to get techs as faster). So now is 70% because there is no need to be higher, just keep adjusting that way.
I'm against giving gpt for techs because it will slow our own progress but this situation for BW - 1gpt deal is ok.

Now that we have met the babs maybe we should cut science so that we are earning at least 1 gold per turn.
Already incorporated into the instructions.

Dear Minister of the Domestic Affairs; Great Noldodan.

Currently our science slider is low; too low in fact. The science-slider was dropped to 90%, where anything less than 100% is against the wishes of the Science department and therefore also against the wishes and the interest of our nation.

We will learn Iron working 2 turns earlier if it's brought back up to the level that is needed; 100% science. We will only loose 1 small, insignifact lump of gold-dust per turn. Who cares; we have over 60 of those in our treasure troves while we only have 5 technologies currently. 13 turns instead of 15 is 100 years !!!! Is 100 years really worth 2 lumps of gold-dust ?

I've let one independent scientist study the slider-settings and it was unanimously voted that the science-slider should be 100%.

I know you are a man of reason and an intelligent Japanatican. I'm sure you'll listen to reason and can put those who like to kill our nation by destroying our research capabilities by dropping the science-slider even as low as 90% into their place knowing their arguments are solely based on flawed emotions. Do not fear to disappoint those people, the nations future lies in your hands and the way to assure Japanatica has a great future is to abandon those ridiculously low science-slider settings and bring it back up to it's rightful setting; tax-0%, lux-0%, Sci-100%.

Thank you.

use the lowest Research percentage that is acceptable GPT for our economy. Id say 80-100% research.

Dear minister of Domestic Affairs.

Now that we have a MP in our riotting cities, can you please check whether the luxury-rate can be downed, of course in favor of science.

Thansk Snipelfritz ;)

Dear minister of Domestic Affairs.

Now that we have a MP in our riotting cities, can you please check whether the luxury-rate can be downed, of course in favor of science.

Thansk Snipelfritz ;)

With temples two temples coming soon, raw GPT will be needed.

It would be good idea that Domestic and Science Ministers (and Trade too) cast their vote that we first build wine city and avoid problem of unhappiness, thus rising luxury slider will not be needed.

EDIT: Hello. I'm Sir Donald III, the guy who's bumping Noldo down a notch :lol: Remembering this thread, I've decided to use it.

Well, New term upcomming, and already I have a Slider issue:

We are currently set at 100% Science at -2GPT (this is from the 2 Temples). Monarchy will be yielded in 36 turns.

Any other setting puts Monarchy at 39 Turns (we spent 1 turn post-Poly already.)

Now, moving the slider down gives us more income, but at the cost of more required research time once the settlers are placed. (By new city income alone. Unit Costs are not a factor... yet... And by "more research time", I mean that if we keep present levels, new gold would reduce the Research time by a few turns, I do not know how many.)

Current List here:

No Science = +21 GPT
10% = 20% = +18
30% = 40% = +13
50% = +8
60% = +6
70% = +5
80% = +1
90% = Break Even
100% = -2 GPT

Now, until the Temple at Shorin is built, 100% Sci will still yield -2 GPT.

Here are what I consider to be my options:

Keep at 100%, incurring a potential loss of at least 30 Gold over 6-8 turns
Move to 90% until all 3 settlers are in place, then readjust Slider to 100%, regardless of net GPT
Keep at Max Science while maintaining Non-Negative GPT (@90% now)
Keep at Max Science while maintaining Positive GPT (@80% now, +1GPT)
Go for a 40 (39)-turn Monarchy with 10% Science. (+18 GPT, currently = 20% Sci)

If anyone would like to include the intermediate options (40-70% inclusive), please ask.

Also, General Discussion here.

If you read the chat log I've posted below, you will find that CT stated Monarchy was due in 32 turns at 100% Science and +1gpt. This is what I mean by no one knowing the real story here in DG5. Most of you people are playing in C3C and don't care enough to switch over to Vanilla. What a shame. We can't even trust our Leaders. The fact that I didn't waste my money buying C3C means that I can't check who's using it to play, or I would.

[20:39:24] <!Chieftess> 3End of5 Turn 8 3-5 1050 BC
[20:39:25] <!Chieftess> 3Taxes5 0% 3/ Science5 100% 3/ Entertainment5
0%
[20:39:25] <!Chieftess> 3Current Treasury =5 163 gold 3(5 +1 gold
per turn 3)
[20:39:25] <!Chieftess> 3Researching5 Monarchy3. Will discover it
in5 32 3turns.
__________________________________________________ ___________

I'm sure it doesn't matter who confesses to using it as I can't check anyway. We'll just continue to have unreliable figures presented to us throughout the game. :sad:

FYI, Honored Chief Justice, I am using Vanillia Civ for this game. Version 1.29f to be exact.

If I were using Conquests, I would be reporting Turn numbers in the 40's for the 10-60% ranges. (Conquests has a Max of 50 turns rather than 40. I'm not checking myself, but I'm sure I would do that. If my version 1.22 would accept the save...)

And how do we get Positive GPT with Full Science AND Improvement Maintnence? Unless someone mircoed a Tax Collector or got a GPT deal with a rival, this should be impossible no matter what version we're playing on.

Who know SD3. I just checked the save that CT said she stopped the game on. It was supposed to be 1050bc. But as she had to repost it, because of an error, she posted the 1025bc save. It looks like an extra turn was played outside of the turn chat. Who knows what the real story is. What turn did we end the game on? 1050bc? Like the chat log says? 1025bc? Like the save says?

Who know SD3. I just checked the save that CT said she stopped the game on. It was supposed to be 1050bc. But as she had to repost it, because of an error, she posted the 1025bc save. It looks like an extra turn was played outside of the turn chat. Who knows what the real story is. What turn did we end the game on? 1050bc? Like the chat log says? 1025bc? Like the save says?

Didn't she stop at the settlers? When were they produced? BTW (and with all due respect of course), it is better to be polite about it, as there may be a good explaination for it.

We should be more worried about those foreigners near our lands (Romans and Iroqs).

Recalling the log, she probably uploaded the wrong save initially, (1250 BC instead of 1050 BC), then had to reload.

Or perhaps she merely hit enter and developments happened in the IBT (such as the production of 2 settlers, and the corresponding reassignment of tiles) that altered the calculus.

<!Chieftess> 11,2[ Fanatican News Flash - 1050 BC ]1,0 We
now know Polytheism!

We discovered Poly in 1050 BC, and 1 turn elapsed, meaning that the Min Sci would be 39 in 1025 BC.

Basically, events happened in the IBT that radically altered the calculus to the point that we had to declare "End Chat" at the beginning of our turn. The only foul was Chieftess not writing the Turn 9 info on research and GPT. The production of 2 Settlers does make a big difference...

EDIT: That still leaves the question of Positive GPT at 100% Sci and non-zero Maintnence...

Anyway, back to topic. "What shall we do now?"

Well, I just stepped thru the entire log. On Turn 8 - 1050bc we discover Poly. Our Science is at 100%, we have 163 gold, and +1gpt. Then a bit later, CT said "no, it was actually -1gpt. At this turn we had 2 Settlers, 1 in Immo and 1 in Fanatikku. This is what CT saved and uploaded, and then ended the chat log. Now I will go back to my saves in-game and see if I downloaded the 1050bc save first, or if I just got the 1025bc save that I looked at before. Regardless, 1025bc save would be turn 9, if the Settlers are still in the cities, that means they wasted a turn. I'll be back.

BTW (and with all due respect of course), it is better to be polite about it, as there may be a good explaination for it.
You're right Zarn, I should have been more polite. It's just that things like this did'nt happen before. I'm having to do a lot of extra work for what? Weird stuff like this. We supposed to be veterans here, helping new players. And we do this? I see erroneous figures fly by, missed turns, we started the game 3 times? I'm sorry, I just feel I need to say something about the state of the game.

If you read the pertinent chat log below (I've gone to just before turn 7, so it's 1100. Culture time!), you'll see we advance to turn seven at 20:33:11 and then we advance to turn eight at 20:35:01. Turn eight is referenced over and over. It is even mentioned that the 2 Settlers are turn eight Settlers. The save is done and uploaded on turn 8 at year 1050bc. We get Poly and France builds the Oracle. At 20:39:27, CT says she's pressing enter, but never does, as she notices the gpt has changed from +1 to -1, and start talking about trades and this and that. At 20:41:18, we are still in turn 8 1050bc. At 20:45:47, CT says she is moving the Settler OUT OF IMMO to site 4. Then it's discovered that site 4 has been used and no new sites were polled, so the turn chat ends with a save and upload at 20:49:25. Nowhere do we advance to turn 9. Yet in the 1025bc we see that no shields have been added to the spearmen in either city.

[20:30:47] <!Chieftess> We just built a temple, curu!
the rest is in the following post, because of legnth.

I'd like an explanation, please,

CJ Cyc
:hammer:

[20:30:47] <+invy> bye
[20:30:57] <+MSTK> two!
[20:30:57] <+Curufinwe> sweet
[20:30:59] <+Curufinwe> damn straight
[20:31:05] <+Provolution896> screenie on the Roman settler?
[20:31:12] <!Chieftess> None really needed.
[20:31:12] <+Provolution896> up close?
[20:31:14] <+fier_canadien> I call that canadian/cultural
tele-empathy
[20:31:19] <!Chieftess> It's just 1 south of the horses north of
Rome
[20:31:20] <+invy> we also need some kind of culture strategie
[20:31:22] <+Curufinwe> tele empathy?
[20:31:26] <+Curufinwe> I think that's BS
[20:31:26] <+cyc> what' the year CT?
[20:31:29] <!Chieftess> 1100BC
[20:31:34] <+cyc> ty
[20:31:34] <!Chieftess> 3End of5 Turn 6 3-5 1100 BC
[20:31:34] <!Chieftess> 3Taxes5 0% 3/ Science5 100% 3/ Entertainment5
0%
[20:31:34] <!Chieftess> 3Current Treasury =5 164 gold 3(5 -2 gold
per turn 3)
[20:31:34] <!Chieftess> 3Researching5 Polytheism3. Will discover it
in5 3 3turns.
[20:31:36] <!Chieftess> Press it?
[20:31:36] <!Chieftess> 3Hitting Enter...
[20:31:41] <!Chieftess> Poly in 2 now actually
[20:31:43] <+Curufinwe> hmm... polytheism
[20:31:44] <+invy> any deals?
[20:31:48] <+Noldodan> Puite!
[20:31:50] <!Chieftess> looking
[20:31:56] <+Curufinwe> what does puite mean?
[20:31:58] <+SirDon3> If they settle there, we can still take
Iron... Maybe...
[20:32:10] <+Noldodan> curu: spit, in the imperative
[20:32:12] <+MSTK> we must not let Rome get iron
[20:32:14] <!Chieftess> none
[20:32:19] <+Provolution896> horses are a loss, hope they go for
silks
[20:32:21] <+Curufinwe> quenya
[20:32:22] <+Curufinwe> >
[20:32:23] <!Chieftess> pressing.
[20:32:23] <+cyc> can we drop science?
[20:32:24] <+Curufinwe> ?
[20:32:31] <+MSTK> We need Rik's approval
[20:32:34] <+MSTK> Rik is asleep
[20:32:38] <+Black_Hole> no we dont
[20:32:40] <+Curufinwe> deputy
[20:32:43] <+MSTK> we don't
[20:32:44] <+MSTK> ?
[20:32:45] <+Black_Hole> slider is up to domestic
[20:32:46] <+MSTK> never mind, then
[20:32:46] <+fier_canadien> what?
[20:32:49] <+SirDon3> Domestic Instructions
[20:32:50] <!Chieftess> 3/3 warrior vs. 2/2 barb
[20:32:54] <+MSTK> Noldo's
[20:32:54] <+bclg> spot vote?
[20:32:55] <+MSTK> ?
[20:33:00] <!Chieftess> we lose
[20:33:04] <+invy> lol
[20:33:08] <+SirDon3> WHAT?
[20:33:08] <+Curufinwe> stupid barbarians
[20:33:11] <+snipelfritz> 01thats sad
3Advanced to Turn5 73,5 1075 BC
[20:33:14] <+Curufinwe> need to be educated and converted
[20:33:16] <+Provolution896> win some lose some
[20:33:21] <+invy> lost 2 warriors
[20:33:22] * Civrules is on IRC
[20:33:38] <+Noldodan> curu: yeah, it's Quenya
[20:33:38] <!Chieftess> poly in 1
[20:33:43] <!Chieftess> Seeing if I can lower science
[20:33:43] <+SirDon3> Why... do I have a bad feeling?
[20:33:50] <+Provolution896> our soldiers needs examples of
failure so they learn
[20:33:52] <+Curufinwe> Quenya, of course, good
[20:33:54] <+fier_canadien> Macwë I verca!
[20:33:55] <!Chieftess> 90%
3Taxes5 10% 3/ Science5 90% 3/ Entertainment5 0%
[20:34:06] <!Chieftess> 3End of5 Turn 7 3-5 1075 BC
[20:34:06] <!Chieftess> 3Taxes5 10% 3/ Science5 90% 3/ Entertainment5
0%
[20:34:06] <!Chieftess> 3Current Treasury =5 162 gold 3(5 +1 gold
per turn 3)
[20:34:06] <!Chieftess> 3Researching5 Polytheism3. Will discover it
in5 1 3turns.
[20:34:07] <+Noldodan> Slay the savages!
[20:34:08] <!Chieftess> Press it?
[20:34:09] <!Chieftess> 3Hitting Enter...
[20:34:12] <+invy> instructions say maintain 0 gpt
[20:34:12] <+Provolution896> SD3 I think our wedge is at risk
[20:34:17] <+invy> k
[20:34:31] <+Provolution896> watchlist Roman settler
[20:34:31] <+MSTK> Polytheism!
[20:34:34] <!Chieftess> Rome's headed for the hills!
[20:34:37] <!Chieftess> PRobably to get horses and silks
[20:34:40] <+SirDon3> NO!
[20:34:43] <+snipelfritz> 01ahhhhhh
[20:34:47] <!Chieftess> Well, that's on the other side of the
coast.
[20:34:57] <!Chieftess> Babylonian settler from the south-west
coast appears..
[20:35:01] 12* +Curufinwe thinks of what little quenya he knows
3Advanced to Turn5 83,5 1050 BC

[20:35:06] <+fier_canadien> Noldodan: Slay the savages! 2in fact,
it would read: hew the wild men with a long blade
[20:35:07] <+SirDon3> They won't go for Silks, they're heading
for Iron! They'll settle next turn!
[20:35:09] <+MSTK> We can't let the romans get silk
[20:35:11] <!Chieftess> 11,2[ Fanatican News Flash - 1050 BC ]1,0 We
now know Polytheism!
[20:35:13] <+MSTK> Ack!
[20:35:16] <+Provolution896> CT we need a screenie next turn
[20:35:19] <+Curufinwe> good...
[20:35:22] 12* +Curufinwe purrs
[20:35:23] <+MSTK> Run the garrison on top of iron!
[20:35:31] <+snipelfritz> yeah poly
[20:35:35] <+BlueStrider> Yes! I just made a bronze finger....
[20:35:37] <!Chieftess> Ok, first, that's ON THE OTHER SIDE OF
THE CONTINENT!!!
[20:35:42] <+MSTK> ?
[20:35:45] <+Curufinwe> meh
[20:35:47] <!Chieftess> 2nd - They'll settle below it.
[20:35:54] <!Chieftess> 3rd - They need to connect it first.
[20:36:00] <+Curufinwe> That never stopped Canada from forming
[20:36:01] <!Chieftess> 4th - the AI is dumb.
[20:36:06] <+Curufinwe> we just built railways
[20:36:11] <+Curufinwe> somehow that makes people happy'
[20:36:14] <+invy> 4th - true
[20:36:16] <+SirDon3> So Romans are ON 5 South at this moment
[20:36:24] <!Chieftess> ok, what to research next?
[20:36:25] <!Chieftess> Mono?
[20:36:31] <+invy> yes
[20:36:32] <+SirDon3> Monarch!
[20:36:34] <+Provolution896> Monarchy yes
[20:36:38] <+Provolution896> NOT literature
[20:36:39] <+MSTK> just move the Oda garrison towards Iron :)
[20:36:41] <+Curufinwe> and with it, the Hanging Gardens
[20:36:42] <!Chieftess> France is building the oracle
[20:36:45] <+SirDon3> (Mono is in Middle Ages)
[20:36:48] <+snipelfritz> ahhhhhhh
[20:36:55] <+Curufinwe> kill the French!
[20:36:58] <+Curufinwe> Building a wonder
[20:37:00] <+Curufinwe> yeash!
[20:37:04] <!Chieftess> BTW, Rome is going to miss that iron,
but can get it by culture.
[20:37:17] <!Chieftess> Even if we *DID* stand on it, Rome will
kick us out.
[20:37:17] <+fier_canadien> Hey, I feel touched!
[20:37:24] <+Provolution896> TA should NOT trade away monarchy
for some 30 Juda gold money
3Current Turn:5 83,5 1050 BC
[20:37:36] <+snipelfritz> asdfghjkl;'
[20:37:38] <+MSTK> XD
3Taxes5 0% 3/ Science5 100% 3/ Entertainment5 0%
[20:37:43] <+snipelfritz> oops sorry
[20:37:49] <+MSTK> really...
[20:37:49] <+SirDon3> Wait... wait... they're on top of the
Horses, right now?
[20:37:54] <!Chieftess> no
[20:37:55] <!Chieftess> 1 north
[20:37:58] <+Curufinwe> snipel- now that you're in my department
the only giberrish you should speak is quenyan
[20:38:00] <+Provolution896> screeenie next round
[20:38:00] <!Chieftess> They're gonna settle on the hill
[20:38:01] <+Curufinwe> or sindarin
[20:38:06] <+SirDon3> 1 North of Horses?
[20:38:09] <+Provolution896> we may lose both Horsepotr and
Roman Iron soon
[20:38:09] <!Chieftess> You don't need one...
[20:38:09] <!Chieftess> yes
[20:38:14] <+fier_canadien> Or dark speech
[20:38:14] <+MSTK> we should get the dyes ASAP?
[20:38:15] <!Chieftess> Not if you know where they are. :)
[20:38:29] 12* !Chieftess feels like she's playing with a bunch of
newbies. :p
[20:38:33] <+MSTK> *silk
[20:38:38] <+MSTK> i r teh n00b
[20:38:46] <!Chieftess> Ok, this is only monarch, we don't need
that many luxs this early.
[20:38:58] <+invy> well we cant get all goodies on the continent
[20:38:59] <+Provolution896> iron is more important
[20:39:00] <!Chieftess> Also, the Hanging Gardens isn't that
great of a wonder. It's only for 1 city.
[20:39:02] <+Noldodan> i know two words in Black Speech: snaga,
"slave" and nazg, "ring"
[20:39:02] <+MSTK> yeah, but as a citizen of Japanatica...silks
are good.
[20:39:04] <+Curufinwe> fier- or adunaic
[20:39:14] <+Curufinwe> Noldo- ring enscription
[20:39:19] <+Curufinwe> Ash Nazgul...
[20:39:22] <+Curufinwe> no
[20:39:24] <+Curufinwe> that's not it
[20:39:24] <!Chieftess> 3End of5 Turn 8 3-5 1050 BC
[20:39:25] <!Chieftess> 3Taxes5 0% 3/ Science5 100% 3/ Entertainment5
0%
[20:39:25] <!Chieftess> 3Current Treasury =5 163 gold 3(5 +1 gold
per turn 3)
[20:39:25] <!Chieftess> 3Researching5 Monarchy3. Will discover it
in5 32 3turns.
[20:39:26] <+Curufinwe> I forget it
[20:39:27] <!Chieftess> 3Hitting Enter...
[20:39:28] <!Chieftess> Press it?
[20:39:29] <+Noldodan> curu, how many words of Adunaic do we
know?
[20:39:30] <+Provolution896> stop elvish Presley
[20:39:36] <!Chieftess> -1gpt actually
[20:39:37] <+Curufinwe> Noldo- Read HOME IX
[20:39:40] <+Curufinwe> a damn fiar bit
[20:39:41] <+invy> trade poly?
[20:39:49] <+Noldodan> bah Curu
[20:39:53] <+SirDon3> What is 90% Sci rate?
[20:39:53] <+Provolution896> not trade poly
[20:39:58] <+MSTK> Ecks Dee
[20:40:10] <+invy> trade yes but for 2+ techs
[20:40:11] <+Provolution896> we need Hanging Garden for ourselves
[20:40:11] <!Chieftess> Zulus would give us math and 67g
[20:40:14] <+Noldodan> i had to buu a new copy of HoME V last
week, dunno what happened to the old one
[20:40:24] <+SirDon3> Is 67 all they have?
[20:40:25] <+Curufinwe> hah
[20:40:27] <+Curufinwe> HOME IX Noldo
[20:40:31] <+invy> poly worths more
[20:40:31] <+MSTK> Provo probably burned it
[20:40:39] <+Curufinwe> 67 and math..hmm...
[20:40:44] <+Provolution896> burned?
[20:40:54] <!Chieftess> I guess we'll wait a bit...
[20:41:00] 3Gunner (jirc@12a06a62.31478372.ipt.aol.com) Quit
(Quit: Leaving)
[20:41:01] <!Chieftess> Although, the AI *WILL* head up that
path.
[20:41:02] <+fier_canadien> Poly is an empty tech, anyway
[20:41:12] <!Chieftess> next to mono, another AI favority
[20:41:14] <+SirDon3> New TM can discuss... maybe...
[20:41:15] <!Chieftess> *favorite
[20:41:18] <+Provolution896> but Monarchy comes next
3Current Turn:5 83,5 1050 BC
[20:41:31] <!Chieftess> We only have 2 more turns...
[20:41:35] <+invy> i usually get 2-3 techs for poly
[20:41:36] <!Chieftess> let's go.
[20:41:42] <+MSTK> really?
[20:41:45] <+Provolution896> go on
[20:41:46] <+invy> hehe
[20:41:50] <+MSTK> 1:42 into turnchat
[20:41:51] <!Chieftess> I think the Babs want that cattle spot.
[20:41:55] <!Chieftess> Well, they're not getting it! Ha!
[20:42:00] <!Chieftess> Fanatikku: Settlers
[20:42:05] <!Chieftess> Immo: Settler->Spear
[20:42:19] <+SirDon3> Not unless Elippi's borders expand...
[20:42:33] <+Curufinwe> Which can be counteracted
[20:42:33] <!Chieftess> What do you mean?
[20:42:41] <+Curufinwe> I'm used to winning specific squares in
games
[20:42:44] <+Provolution896> the defensible border doctrine was
based on leaving the area outside alone
[20:42:45] <!Chieftess> That would be 300 turns into the game.
[20:42:50] <!Chieftess> For Ellipi to have level 4-5 culture.
[20:43:02] <+MSTK> unless it has a wonder
[20:43:03] <+SirDon3> It needs only Level 2
[20:43:05] <+Curufinwe> and we'd better have counteracted them
by now
[20:43:07] <+Curufinwe> *then
[20:43:09] <!Chieftess> For what?
[20:43:17] <!Chieftess> We're building 1S of the mountain, right?
[20:43:28] <+SirDon3> to expand into 8 East's 9-Square
[20:43:31] <!Chieftess> ok, 8e
[20:43:36] <!Chieftess> going east
[20:43:36] <+MSTK> no
[20:43:40] <!Chieftess> That's level3
[20:43:40] <+SirDon3> No, we are building 2SE of the Mount
[20:43:45] <+MSTK> yeah
[20:43:55] <+MSTK> 1S of MNT is 8w.
[20:43:56] <!Chieftess> Doesn't even have the river for a free
aquaduct.
[20:44:03] <!Chieftess> Brilliant! </sarcasm>
[20:44:06] <+MSTK> go figure
[20:44:10] <+invy> Where is going Fanatikku settler?
[20:44:13] <+MSTK> democracy is corrupt
[20:44:13] <!Chieftess> Oh, and that's level 3 culture.
[20:44:15] <+SirDon3> OT: 8 West is 1 tile SW of Mount
[20:44:25] <+Provolution896> another no river proposal ....
[20:44:32] <+Curufinwe> level 3=1000 culutre minimum
[20:44:36] <+Curufinwe> or...
[20:44:38] <+Curufinwe> am I wrong
[20:44:38] <!Chieftess> 1 tile SW of the mountain? That's the
cattle
[20:44:50] <+SirDon3> Lead Fan Settler towards 5S, won't reach
Turn 10.
[20:44:54] <+Curufinwe> 2 comes with 10, 3 comes with 100
[20:44:55] <+MSTK> 2SW, CT
[20:44:56] <+Curufinwe> so I am wrong
[20:45:04] <+cyc> look at the poll ct
[20:45:11] <!Chieftess> Ok, slow down everyone...
[20:45:13] <+cyc> 8e
[20:45:22] <+Provolution896> 8E won
[20:45:24] <+MSTK> http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p
=2140223#post2140223
[20:45:28] <+SirDon3> Sorry, noldo... getting drunk off of power.
[20:45:37] <+Noldodan> :lol:
[20:45:47] <!Chieftess> Ok, moving the settler out of Immo
[20:45:52] * Gainy has left IRC
[20:46:01] <+invy> If everything is correct we are having now 2
new settlers (1 in immo and 1 in fanatikku) and only 1
location (rome iron)
[20:46:08] <!Chieftess> to site 4
[20:46:14] <!Chieftess> Where is the Fanatikku one going?
[20:46:15] <+Provolution896> that southern city placed us in
harms way between Iros and Babylonians
[20:46:39] <+invy> CT do we have 2 new settlers?
[20:46:39] 12* +SirDon3 tries to rememebr where site "4" was...
[20:46:43] * Civrules has left IRC
[20:46:46] <!Chieftess> yes
[20:46:52] <!Chieftess> Site 2 and 4 are already settled...
[20:47:02] <+Provolution896> 5s?
[20:47:07] <+Provolution896> Iron Rome?
[20:47:11] <+invy> one is going for iron
[20:47:14] <+invy> we didnt poll second
[20:47:15] <+Provolution896> one for Horseport?
[20:47:24] 12* !Chieftess performs the ritual -- http://www.civfana
tics.net/uploads4/CT_eyrei.gif
[20:47:30] <+cyc> probably need to stop
[20:47:44] <+Provolution896> what does the poll say?
[20:47:45] <!Chieftess> Yes, I don't think there's a clear
picture of where to settle.
[20:47:52] <!Chieftess> Well, the polls say sites 2 and 4
[20:47:54] <+SirDon3> Poll only said "Top 2"
[20:47:55] <+Provolution896> screen?
[20:47:56] <!Chieftess> both are settled
[20:47:58] <+invy> we didnt poll next position at all
[20:48:03] <+SirDon3> That was the Prevuous Poll
[20:48:10] <+MSTK> The poll isn't meant to choose anything after
2.
[20:48:13] <+Provolution896> we need a screenie?
[20:48:15] <!Chieftess> I just love the way we settle. :p
[20:48:17] <+SirDon3> Sites 2 and 4 were from 2 TCs ago
[20:48:23] <+invy> lol
[20:48:40] <+Curufinwe> this is why I tend to ignore city
placement
[20:48:51] <+Provolution896> well, the WOTP has been more
spontaneous and opportunistic than strategic
[20:48:51] <!Chieftess> Well, there were no instructions for the
2 turn 8 settlers...
[20:48:52] <+cyc> i did too
[20:48:57] <+invy> time to stop chat. we'll need better
organization obviously
[20:49:13] <+Provolution896> surely
[20:49:20] <!Chieftess> yes, stopping chat.
[20:49:22] <+MSTK> we need final save
[20:49:24] <!Chieftess> 3End of5 Turn 8 3-5 1050 BC
[20:49:24] <!Chieftess> 3Taxes5 0% 3/ Science5 100% 3/ Entertainment5
0%
[20:49:24] <!Chieftess> 3Current Treasury =5 163 gold 3(5 +1 gold
per turn 3)
[20:49:24] <!Chieftess> 3Researching5 Monarchy3. Will discover it
in5 32 3turns.
[20:49:25] <!Chieftess> 3Saving file and Uploading...
[20:49:29] 3*** MRex is now online!
[20:51:54] <!Chieftess> The chat is over.
End of #turnchat buffer Sun Aug 29 20:52:05 2004

1025BC was turn 8. The demogame script I have is a little buggy... (blame FortyJ for the dates/turns). And what makes you think I changed anything? The only thing I changed where the build queues in the preturn according to the build queue instructions.

Another thing.
CT i think we didn't move settler in Immo first turn (actually turn 0). You said we'll settle in 10 but it should have been 9 (8 to go +1 to settle since beginning of chat). Settler was unmoved in Immo in turn 0 and he is now getting 1 turn later to cattles.
Maybe i'm wrong but i think we forgot to move him.

1025BC was turn 8. The demogame script I have is a little buggy... (blame FortyJ for the dates/turns). And what makes you think I changed anything? The only thing I changed where the build queues in the preturn according to the build queue instructions.

What are you talking about now? Where did I say you changed anything, other than you stating that you moved the Settler out of Immo towards site 4?
Turn 0 - 1250bc
Turn 1 - 1225bc
Turn 2 - 1200bc
Turn 3 - 1175bc
Turn 4 - 1150bc
Turn 5 - 1125bc
Turn 6 - 1100bc
Turn 7 - 1075bc
Turn 8 - 1050bc
Turn 9 - 1025bc

You're wrong CT. Like I said I stepped through the entire chat log. I can list all of the facts and figures for you. Even if you look at the opening screen on the save, you can see that the first Settler from Immo is 9 turns away from Immo. I know you were having problems with your script (when are you going to fix that?) but it can't show incorrect moves. It's all documented in the Chat log.

My point is if you make a mistake, just admit to it. "Ooops, I messed up! This is what happened." is a lot better than trying to slide something under the table. Count the moves CT. Read the words in the Chat Log. It's all there.

Okay, getting back on topic. If I calculated correctly, monarchy will cost 826 to 828 gold. If we had 10 more gold per turn, it would take 10 fewer turns. If we had 5 more gold per turn, it would take 6 fewer turns. I am not sure how our income will change over the course of our time researching. However, the choice is whether to learn monarchy as quickly as possible, or to gain a lot of money while researching. I think monarchy taking only 30 turns certainly is doable, and we would earn over 702 gold by doing minimum research.

Disclaimer: these numbers were obtained using PTW, but I don't believe there should be any difference.

Thanks, Tim. Perhaps we should move the Pre-Investigation of this little snafu to another topic.

Our income will change because over the next 10 turns, we will have founded 3 additional cities. (Of course, that's assuming the Iriquois don't take Immo, but still...)

In 3 turns, we should be able to get... Er... at least 6 GPT pre-corruption, but no more than 10. So, after Corruption, let's say about 6 GPT.

We are currently devoting 23 GPT to research. Let's assume that Turn 8 was accidentally skipped, and we have 23 beakers in Monarch. This would be right since 828/23 = 36.

So, over probably 8 turns, plus the previous turn, we will have 207 Beakers towards Monarchy at 100% At that point, add 6 GPT, and you get Monarch 22 turns after this, total 30. (1 more turn than Chieftess' original estimate.)

Now, for other proposals.

90% for 8 turns (21) + the original 23 yields a total of 191 beakers. 637 remaining. Full power at this point = 22 turns, total 30, but barely. (IOW, no room for error here...)

90% total (21x8, 27 for rest) gives us Monarchy in a total of 33 turns (1@100+8@90+24@90)

Again, the above is based on the end results of Tim's post. If he's wrong, then I'm wrong...

We are currently set at 100% Science at -2GPT (this is from the 2 Temples). Monarchy will be yielded in 36 turns.

Any other setting puts Monarchy at 39 Turns (we spent 1 turn post-Poly already.)

Now, moving the slider down gives us more income, but at the cost of more required research time once the settlers are placed. (By new city income alone. Unit Costs are not a factor... yet... And by "more research time", I mean that if we keep present levels, new gold would reduce the Research time by a few turns, I do not know how many.)

Current List here:

No Science = +21 GPT
10% = 20% = +18
30% = 40% = +13
50% = +8
60% = +6
70% = +5
80% = +1
90% = Break Even
100% = -2 GPT

Now, until the Temple at Shorin is built, 100% Sci will still yield -2 GPT.

Here are what I consider to be my options:

Keep at 100%, incurring a potential loss of at least 30 Gold over 6-8 turns
Move to 90% until all 3 settlers are in place, then readjust Slider to 100%, regardless of net GPT
Keep at Max Science while maintaining Non-Negative GPT (@90% now)
Keep at Max Science while maintaining Positive GPT (@80% now, +1GPT)
Go for a 40 (39)-turn Monarchy with 10% Science. (+18 GPT, currently = 20% Sci)

If anyone would like to include the intermediate options (40-70% inclusive), please ask.

Updates: Though he used PTW data, Tim has given us data that may help lead to an estimate of when we get Monarchy. Options were in the previous post.

New option: Full until we found new cities, 90% after: (9*23+23*27)=828 in 32 turns total. Here, there is NO margin for Error. (Actually, a very slight as we will be adding ctitzens over this period.)

More discussion before I post a poll, please.

I like :

Keep at Max Science while maintaining Non-Negative GPT (@90% now)

and

Move to 90% until all 3 settlers are in place, then readjust Slider to 100%, regardless of net GPT.

If we did choose to take the minimum science option, (not sure what I think about it) we could set science to 0% and create a specialist. This may be more efficient than a few cities each contributing 10% science, as anything more than 1 beaker per turn is just waste once we've maxed out the number of turns to research

If we did choose to take the minimum science option, (not sure what I think about it) we could set science to 0% and create a specialist. This may be more efficient than a few cities each contributing 10% science, as anything more than 1 beaker per turn is just waste once we've maxed out the number of turns to research
Using a single scientist usually isn't as good at this point in the game. While it would save 3 gold per turn, it would hurt the growth or production of one of the cities (hurting the commerce would make no sense). My suggestion for which city to use for a scientist would be Odawara, since removing the citizen from the plain would not affect production (due to corruption) and would slow growth from 7 turns to 10 turns. Using 10% science (not considering the growth of the economy or the possible impact of the slowed growth of Odawara) would result in 117 less gold than one scientist (if my suggestion for placement of the scientist was used).

The current settings are under debate in the "Monarch Approaching!" poll.

There have been some complaints from the veterans about my request of "clowns". The reason why I did that was because I felt that the problems of individual cities should not need to hamper the entire economy.

In fact, looking at the current settings, increasing Lux to 10% would add a Happy Face in only Fantikku, Furuyama, and Immo. Cities which are already connected to the Gems. Now, I do not doubt that an increase to 20% would add the at risk Odawra to the smily queue, but the overall gold loss of 4 Gold matches that of a "specialized worker" at worst. Now, when we get to Monarchy, that creates a different situation. Sometimes it would be better, and sometimes we will have 2 extra Smilies in Fanatikku for 1 needed one in a frontier town. (Though, by then, we should have enough people in Fanatikku for WLTK, so the extra smilies could help with that instead.)

As has been suggested for the Science Slider, perhaps the DM (myself) should post "Happiness Gains per Percentage", to better show what settings do what.

In fact, I'll do that now. Number on left is Happiness allowed, right is content added to the "founding" setting of 2.
City Pop 0% 10% 20% 30%
Fanatikku 2 1:1 2:1 2:1 3:1
Furuyama 2 1:1 2:1 2:1 3:1
Immo 4 2:1 1U 3:1 1U 3:1 1U 4:1
Epolenep 1 0:2 0:2 0:2 1:2
Zojoji 3 0:2 0:2 0:2 0:2(!)
Odawara 2 0:1 0:1 0:1 1:1
Shorin-Ryu 2 0:1 0:1 1:1 1:1
TBD 1 0:1 0:1 0:1 0:1

Wow! Shorin-Ryu gets a happiness before Odawara. And its just as well that Zojoji will get the road network soon, it doesn't even gain a happiness at 50% Lux! (I checked)

Speaking of which, the Science Guide:

Full = -3 GPT = 27 turns
90% = 0 GPT = 31 Turns
80% = +1 GPT = 32 turns
70% or below = Min Science = 36 Turns
10% yields 22 GPT

Currently, I advocate for keeping the slider at Full for 3 more turns (allow the Settlers to Settle, only cost us 9-11 Gold,) then take it down to 90 or 80%.

Also, send in the clowns for individual disorders since the one city "at risk" as yet wouldn't get a Happy Face until 30%. (Probably 20% once the unhappy citizen pops.) Which is too much.

If a Luxary is pillaged, however, the Lux slider should be used to compensate.


Okay, thoughts? comments? flames?