Conquest 03: First Spoiler (end of ancient age) [Archive]

Jason Fliegel

Aug 05, 2004, 11:19 PM

Brace yourselves -- this is a long one (so long, the board rejected the post and made me split it in two!). I found that keeping a detailed turn log made me play much better than I usually do, because I have to justify every decision in writing. ;)

I'm normally a Regent or Monarch level player, so depite two COTM victories under my belt in Open Class, I decided to play this one as a Conquest Class player. Perhaps it was the five Demigod Byzantine/Achipeligo games I tried while I was waiting for the save to become available (all of which ended in disaster by the late Ancient Age or early Middle Ages) that convinced me I'm not quite ready for Prime Time on Demigod.

In 4000 BC, my first worker took a step due west, discovering the cow and the two shielded grasslands. Clearly, this would be a bountiful land to settle. I moved my first settle northwest -- on my next turn, I would settle on this square, giving myself access to the coast, the river, and one shielded grassland immediately (with a second after expansion). My second worker also headed this way, en route to the cow. With my second settler, I decided to head southwest two squares.

In 3950, I was quite pleased when my second settler revealed a game square, as well as two more shielded grasslands. Meanwhile, I founded Constantinople, started building a curragh, and moved my workers onto the cow. I was quite pleased to see the Ivory, and decided to abandon all pretense of winning a race to Philosophy (remember those five practice games? I didn't win the Philosophy race once) and make a beline to Mathematics. At first, I was going to reasearch Masonry, but since a check of the F10 screen revealed three industrious tribes, I decided to gamble on being able to trade for Masonry and started reasearching Writing.

In 3900, Adrianople was founded and began building a Spearman, while one worker began roading the cow while the other worker moved to Ivory so a road could be built to connect it to Constantinople.

In 3750, the cow was roaded and my worker began irrigating it. This is where I realized my first mistake -- I probably should have irrigated first. I forgot that Constantinople would serve as a conduit to the river, and thought I would need to irrigate the Ivory before I'd be able to irrigate the cow. Oh well -- hopefully it won't be fatal.

3700 -- Constantinople finishes its curragh and begins a Spearman. The curragh heads north along the coast. Meanwhile, the Ivory is roaded, and worker #2 returns to help irrigate the cow.

3600 -- The cow is now irrigated, and both workers move to the shielded grassland, intent on roading and mining it.

3550 -- Adrianople builds its Spearman and begins building its own curragh.

3450 -- Constantinople expands to take in the Ivory, but because of my poor understanding of the order in which things are calculated, I lose a turn to civil disorder. Drat! Meanwhile, our curragh rounds what appears to be the northern tip of our home isle.

3350 -- Constantinople builds its Spearman, and I decide to build a Settler. If my calculations are correct, it should be completed the turn after Constantinople hits population 3.

3300 -- Curragh #2 is complete and heads due south. There's a barb camp at the foot of the volcano, but also what looks like a nice area with access to a fish -- that will make a good spot for a city. Meanwhile, the workers split up. One heads across the river onto the third ivory (discovering a fourth ivroy in the process) while the other moves south into the forest, intent on building a road to Adrianople

3250 -- I decide to road the Ivory with worker #1 -- we're going to build our next city in the forest directly to the north of the Ivory. There's a hint of swamp north of there, but there's at least 4 usable squares (more if I get a cultural expansion) I'll be able to use before I have to worry about the swamp. Curragh #1 continues circumnavigating our island, while curragh #2 heads west. If I can figure out how to attach a screenshot, here's where it will go (the blue dot indicates where our settler is headed):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/JFliegel/COTM3-1.jpg

3200-3150 -- Our curraghs continue their exploration, hugging the coast. This island is quite big; if this were a random map, there would almost certainly be rival civilizations on the island (and, based on my practice games, they would have discovered Chivalry by now and would be bearing down on me with a Stack of Doom full of knights and pikemen). While I haven't explored the whole island yet, it appears Ainwood has given us a little room to grow before we have to deal with rivals.

3100 -- Worker #1 begins irrigating what I've come to think of as Ivory #3 (they are numbered by distance from Constantinople) in preparation for city #3. The curraghs continue their voyages of exploration

3050 -- Our settler and our Spearman arrive! Adrianople begins building a worker; Constantinople begins building a curragh. Both new arrivals head toward their new home.

2950 -- The Road to Adrianople (wasn't that a Hope and Crosby movie?) is complete. I decide to cut down the forest to the northwest of Adrianople -- I'll throw the ten shields into a spearman, I think. Meanwhile, our settler founds Caesarea and our curraghs continue their exploration. The big news, though, is that curragh #2 meets an Indian settler. The Indians will sell us either Ceremonial Burial or Pottery for 190 gold (which would leave us with a single gold!). We buy Ceremonial Burial -- not having any culture is starting to make me nervous. Caesarea starts building a temple.

2900 -- Worker #3 heads west from Adrianople to the forested game. Next turn, he's going to build a road. Worker #1 begins building a road northwest from Caesarea, through the swamp, to what will be our fifth city -- it's going to be founded on the coast, where it will be able to take advantage of 3 shielded grasslands and, eventually, a fish. What about city #4? That's going to go south of Adrianople. Meanwhile, our garrison arrives in Caesarea and our curraghs continue their exploration -- curragh #1 has found Indian territory!

2850 -- We begin building the road to the game, and the curraghs continue exploring. There are furs on the western end of our (quite large) island.

2800 -- Constantinople produces Curragh #3, which heads south, and starts work on a Spearman. Curraghs #1 and 2 continue their voyages.

2750 -- Adrianople finishes its spearman and begins building a settler. A call to Gandhi reveals that he now has Masonry and Warrior Code as well as Pottery, but they are all out of my price range for the time being. Still, it bodes well for a Statue of Zeus prebuild. Our new spearman heads toward the site of city #4. Worker #2 begins irrigating Ivory #1, and our curraghs continue their wandering.

2710 -- Curragh #2 meets the Russians. They are willing to sell us Masonry, but they want 59 gold (our entire reserves) plus 8 GPT. I don't try to haggle with them now; I'll wait a few turns. Curragh #2 continues west along the cost of what appears to be a separate island, while the other curraghs continue to explore.

2670 -- More exploration. Curragh #3 may have found a passage east; curragh #2 has learned that the Russians have spices, and may be a valuable trading partner once we have Map Making.

2630 -- Contantinople builds its spearman and starts working on a Settler. The Spearman heads toward the site of City #5. Curragh #1 confirms that the Russians are on a separate island and begins exploring the northern passage around that island. Curragh #3 prepares to make the eastern crossing, which it should be able to do without ending its turn outside the coastal tiles. Catherine yells at me to get my curraghs out of her yard, but won't yet sell me Masonry at a decent price.

2590 -- Things just got interesting. We encounter an Ottoman spearman. The Ottomans have Mysticism, but not Alphabet. Can I pry Mysticism out of them and use it to buy the other 3 techs from India and Russia? I decide to go for it. Mysticism costs me 93 gold, ALphabet, and 5 GPT. I then turn around and sell Mysticism to India for Warrior Code, Masonry, and 37 gold, and to Russia for Pottery and 28 gold. Net result -- I have purchased Mysticism, Warrior Code, Masonry, and Pottery for 28 gold plus 5 GPT, plus I gave the Ottomans a tech they would have gotten from Russia anyway. Not bad, if I do say so myself.

2550-2470 -- More exploring with the curraghs. Our spearman arrives at the future site of City #5 in 2470.

2430 -- Adrianople finishes its settler and begins a granary. The settler heads south. Our curraghs continue exploring (curragh #1 has found Ottoman territory). One of the workers begins mining a shielded grassland that Adrianople and Constantinople share.

2390 -- More exploring.

2350 -- Constantinople finishes its settler and begins building a granary. The settler heads north. Nicea is founded south of Adrianople, in the process dispersing a Gaul encampment. It begins building a temple. Curragh #3 meets the Dutch, who have one unique tech -- the Wheel -- and need one of my techs -- Masonry. The Dutch only have 35 gold, though, so I think selling them Masonry would be selling it cheap. India and Russia already have the Wheel (and Iron Working!), so I'm not sure the wheel is worth it given that I could trade it to the Ottomans and nobody else. I decide to hold off. For now.

2310 -- The exploration continues.

2270 -- More exploring. The road to my fifth city is complete, so I start mining the shielded grassland. The road to Nicea is also complete, so I start mining that shielded grassland.

2230 -- Curragh #1 (I think) may have found a passage to the northern hemisphere. Curraghs #2 and 3 continue exploring.

2190 -- Varna is founded and begins building a temple. The worker near Adrianople crosses the river by stepping northeast. We're going to road and shield this tile, then start building a road to the west, where we'll build cities #6 and 7. My curraghs continue exploring, and curragh #3 sees the edge of another civ's territory. Who can it be?

2150 -- The mystery civ was Scandanavia, who sell me Iron Working and their entire treasury (45 gold) for Mysticism. I then trade Iron Working to the Dutch for 60 gold (their entire treasury) plus the Wheel. The Ottomans buy the Wheel for 135 gold. As I suspected, there is iron in the hills north of Constantinople. Our next priority will be claiming that iron.

2110 -- We meet Carthage, who sell us Horseback Riding for 170 gold. There are horses on my northern peninsula, which I will have to claim soon. The Ottomans now have Polytheism, while the Scandanavians have Writing. Neither is willing to sell at a palatable price.

2070 -- I explore some more.

2030 -- I finish the mine near Varna. I head south and start mining that shielded grassland. I also finish the road south of Caesarea and start mining that. Finally, I finish the mine near Nicea and head toward the iron. Plus, my curraghs explore.

1990 -- More exploring with the curraghs. I still haven't found civilization #8

1950 -- The Indians are getting uncomfortably close to the land I had been thinking of as "my territory." Oh well. They'll be sorry when I get the Statue of Zeus.

1910 -- More exploring.

1870 -- Ditto. Go, curraghs, go!

1830 -- Constantinople finishes its granary while Caesarea finishes its temple. Both start on spearmen. The curraghs explore.

1790 -- In addition to the exploration, one worker starts developing another shielded grassland near Varna while the other starts building a road to the southwest -- we're going to settle on the hilltop/chokepoint that will mark the boundary between Byzantium and India. Or it will be a trade road with India if they get there first.

1750 -- Adiranople finishes its granary and starts a palace, which will become a Statue of Zeus prebuild in 19 turns.

1725 -- We get writing. I take inventory. Russia and India already have Mathematics, and the Ottomans still have Polytheism. Nobody has Philosophy, with the possibility of mystery Civ #8. Neither Russia nor India is building my Statue of Zeus, so I decide to go for philosophy. I can research it in 7 turns at a net cost of 3 GPT. When it's done, I'll snag Map Making (unless someone else sells me Code of Laws between now and then). Then I'll trade for Mathematics and switch my palace over to the Statue of Zeus. Then my Ancient Cavalry will ride roughshod over India. I hope. Meanwhile, Constnatinople finishes a spearman, which I send to the hill northeast of the iron to stake out a spot for the iron city (Constnatinople is, of course, working on the settler who will found that city). I also start building a road to the iron.

1700 -- More exploring

1675 -- Caesarea finishes the spearman and starts on a settler. I sned the spearman toward the hill on the Indian border. Barbarians start storming out of the north. Caesarea switches to a spearman.

1650 -- I call the Spearman back toward Caesarea. I continue exploring and hope the raging barbarians won't vanquish my meager empire.

1625 -- The barbarians continue to rage, the curraghs continue to roam. I move my spearman by the iron onto the worker who is building the road to the iron. My poor spearman fends off two barbarian horsemen, but falls to the third. My worker is captured.

1600 -- Constantinople finishes its settler and starts building an archer. For now, the settler cools his heels. My curragh encounters the Persians, who pay 110 gold for Alphabet. At this point, only Carthage, Scandanavia, and the Netherlands have writing, so I'm still in the running for Philosophy. Scandanavia has Map Making, but won't sell it. I sell Horseback Riding to the Russians for 43 gold and Mathematics. I could have gotten more from the Indians, but since they share my continent and have horses, I'd rather hold the secrets of Horseback Riding from them. Hopefully, the Russians won't sell it to them. I switch my prebuild in Adrianople to Statue of Zeus -- currently, it's going to take 35 turns to build.

To be continued ...

Jason Fliegel

Aug 05, 2004, 11:20 PM

Part 2 of 2 ...

1575 -- Caesarea finishes the Spearman. He heads to Constantinople. Meanwhile, Caesarea starts another Spearman.

1550 -- I win the race for Philosophy. Since I know Scandanavia has Map Making, I elect to learn Construction, the most expensive tech. I start researching Code of Laws and ring up my old friend Ragnar Lodbrok. He buys Mathematics from me in exchange for Map Making and 86 gold.

1525 -- More exploring. My worker finishes the second mine near Varna and heads toward Adianople.

1500 -- Constantinople finishes its Archer, who reclaims the iron. The Spearman and the settler follow him out there. Constantinople starts building a worker to replace the one who was so tragically lost in the barbarian attack. Between turns, the Russians extort Writing from me. I pay them back, though -- I trade them Map Making for Polytheism and 287 gold. Meanwhile, the barbarians throw themselves at my Spearman/Settler/Archer combo. This time, the Spearman successfully fights them off. All this, plus two Indian warriors (but no settlers) move toward my territory. The Vikings buid the Colossus in Trondheim.

1475 -- Caesarea finishes another spearman and starts on a settler. Meanwhile, at the iron, I have a big decision to make. Option 1 is to go with my original plan and found on the hill to the northeast of the iron. Because there's no road, I'll have a wait while I finsih my worker, finish a spearman to protect him, and road the iron. Option 2 is to just build on the iron. The problem with that is it overlaps a lot more squares than I usually do. After some soul searching, I found Smyrna right on the iron. Smyrna begins a harbor.

1450 -- Constantinople finishes its worker and starts on a swordsman. The worker heads off to develop Adrianople.

1425-1400 -- More exploration. Between turns after 1400, three barbarian galleys attack one of my curraghs. The third one sinks it. You will be remembered, Curragh #2! Meanwhile, the Ottomans build the Oracle in Istanbul.

1375 -- Exploration

1350 -- varna finishes its temple and starts building a swordsman. Those two Indian warriors are still nosing around. Curragh #1 rounds a corner and discovers it is adjacent to a barbarian galley as it runs out of moves. Yikes!

1325 -- Curragh #1 has survived! Caesarea has built its settler, and the chokepoint is still available. Hopefully, India isn't moving its own settler toward the chokepoint.

1300 -- Constantinople finishes its Swordsman. Time to start clearing out those lurking barbarians and begin expanding toward those horses in the north.

1275 -- Between turns, Russia builds the Pyramids in Moscow. This leads the Indians to construct the Great Wall in Delhi. Meanwhile, Adrianople expands and goes into chaos. Oops. I quick trip to the F1 screen will fix that, but I've wasted a turn. Between turns, barbarians attack my swordsman, raising him to elite status.

1250 -- Since my swordsman is sitting on a mountain, I decide to fortify him and wait for the remaining barbs to attack me. If the RNG likes me, maybe I'll get a leader out of this. Heraclea is founded and starts building a temple.

1225 -- My elite swordsman defeated the barbs, but he didn't generate a leader (alas!). Constantinople finishes its spearman and starts on a temple. Smyrna finishes its harbor and also starts on a temple. I continue developing Adrianople -- 10 turns to the Statue of Zeus! I also complete the road to Heraclea and start cutting down a forest. Meanwhile, one of those two Indian warriors is wandering into my territory.

1200 -- More exploration. The Scandanavians demand Ivory and I tell them to shove it. They can have Ivory once my Statue of Zeus is complete (in seven turns!). The Dutch build the Great Lighthouse in Amsterdam.

1175 -- More exploring

1150 -- We get Code of Laws. Republic will take us 40 turns at 50% research (which is the most we can spare without running a deficit!) A quick check of the other nations reveals only one tech I don't have -- Monarchy, and the Ottomans ain't interested in selling. My swordsman starts whacking away at a barb camp, and my injured curragh makes the most dangerous part of its journey home -- it must end the turn in a sea square. Seafaring trait, don't fail me now!

1125 -- The curragh is safe; it will put into Smyrna for repairs (and upgrades) in 5 turns. Meanwhile, the development of Heraclea continues. My elite swordsman loses 3 HP fighting barbs and STILL doesn't generate a leader.

1100 -- Between turns, the Indian warrior draws out one of the barbs near my swordsman. More frightening, a horde of barbarian ships show up near my poor, injured curragh. Varna finishes its swordsman and begins a worker. My injured curragh heads toward Varna for repairs.

1075 -- India disperses that barb camp. Oh well -- there's another further north; maybe I'll get that one. My swordsman is still healing.

1050 -- The elite swordsman continues to heal as the regular swordsman joins him in the northern campaign. The injured curragh continues its race to Varna.

1025 -- The Statue of Zeus is complete!!!! Adrianople starts on a temple so I can drop my luxury rate to something reasonable. Meanwhile, Constantinople finishes its own temple and starts on a spearman. I trade ivory for silks with Carthage, which helps the tax rate a little, and send my workers to hook up the other two ivory sources. The swordsmen head north.

1000 -- Varna completes its worker and starts on a harbor.

975 -- Nicea finishes its harbor and starts on a spearman.

950 -- Somehow, Constantinople switched from a spearman to a barracks. I'd waste shields by building a spearman now, so I switch to a settler.

925 -- Constantinople finishes the settler. NOW let's build a spearman.

900 -- Trondheim builds the Mausoleum of Maussolos. On the home front, Adrianople finishes its temple and starts on a spearman. It also builds its first Ancient Cavalry, who heads south to start clearing out the barbs near Nicea. Unfortunately, the new temple doesn't permit me to further lower my lux rate. And that darned Indian warrior manages to disperse the barb camp I was aiming for.

875 -- We continue to explore. My swordsmen start to spread out on the northern penninsula to make sure no more barbs pop up before I settle it.

850 -- Adrianople finishes its spearman. NOW I can cut back my lux rate and shave 5 turns off my time to research Republic. Except ... The Ottomans will sell me Monarchy for 389 gold and Code of Laws. Since I have designs on India, wouldn't it make sense to go Monarch instead of Republic? I make the trade and trigger the revolt, which will last for 4 turns.

825 -- My curraghs explore while the revolution continues. I learn that I am the wealthiest nation in the world, so I got that going for me, which is nice. My Ancient Cavalry continues the southern campaign, while my regular swordsman discovers a new barb camp.

800 -- My workers start draining the swamp north of Caesarea in preparation for building a road toward the horses.

775 -- My regular swordsman becomes a veteran fighting against barbarians, but he is down to 2 hit points. I get another ancient cavalry and send it toward the border with India.

750 -- We become a Monarchy! We also disperse that barb camp with our veteran swordsaman. The camp was on a hill that looks like it will be a fine spot for a city. We build an embassy with India. Compared to them, our military is weak. That's not good.

725 -- Caesarea and Constantinople finish their respective speamen and start on a settler and a worker, respectively. The spearman/settler pair in Constantinople heads north to found a new city.

700 -- Nicea finishes its spearman and starts a worker. Carthage builds the Temple of Artemis, which is nice, since Delhi had been working on it, too -- take that, India. You and your wasted shields! I start roading to the northern penninsula, so my new cities and my horses will be connected up.

690 -- Bursa builds the Hanging Gardens. I finish a bunch of projects (a worker, and two harbors) and begin working on Barracks (in Constantinople and Adrianople) and an Aqueduct (in Varna). I continue developing Heraclea.

670 -- Things just got bad. First Hannibal demand 51 gold from me. I paid him, then bought Gems from him for another 131. That could have been worse -- the savings from luxury taxes will save me 8 gold per turn (as of now), so I actually wound up making back the cost of the gems plus about half of what he extorted. The bad news, though, is that the Russians just landed a spearman/settler combo on my penninsula. Looks like my first war may have to be against them, since the culture graph shows that the odds of a flip are relatively low (see picture). I build an embassy with Russia -- compared to them, my military is weak. Can I afford to fight these guys? Can I afford to let them settle in my territory? I send my newly minted Ancient Cavalry to the penninsula.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/JFliegel/RelativeCulture--670BC.jpg

650 -- Nicaea starts building an aqueduct.

630 -- I lose a turn in Adrinople due to rioting. I've got to pay more attention to cities about to grow. The Russians are right next to my veteran swordsman, so I decide to declare war. If the RNG is on my side, I can kick them off my subcontinent and get a slave worker in the bargain. For once, the RNG is on my side. My veteran swordsman loses a hitpoint, but takes out the settler. I immediately start second guessing the RNG -- why didn't my swordsman get promoted!?! I send the workers to start developing the shielded grassland I will be settling near.

610 -- Arrgh! For some reason, despite my messing with the lux slider last turn, the rioting intensified in Adrianople and destroyed the harbor. Is there war weariness in Monarchy?

590 -- Constantinople finishes its barracks and starts building swordsmen. Smyrna finishes its temple, and starts a worker. Russia lands a single archer near Varna, and I send my ancient cavalry and veteran swordsman toward it. Trebizond is founded. The Russians won't acknowledge my envoy.

570 -- The Russian archer falls when he attacks my mighty spearman. Adrianople finishes its barracks and starts making swordsmen, too.

550-530 -- I move troops around.

510 -- Constantinople and Adrianople finish their swordsmen and begin building, respectively, a spearman and a settler. There's one more hole to plug up in the northern penninsula.

490 -- The Dutch demand Ivory and I give it to them. Caesarea starts a catapult; Smyrna an aqueduct. The Russians still won't acknowledge my envoy. Just as I'm starting to worry about an India/Russia alliance against me, India declares against Russia. Sweet! Meanwhile, Dutch settlers land on my penninsula. Fortunately, I can found a city on my next turn and protect my horses.

470 -- Chalcedon is founded and starts a temple. It will be a while before I can build a road to the horses and over the mountain, but at least the horses are in my territory. My military is avergae compared to India, and the Russians are even willing to make a peace treaty. They want money for it, so I'll give them a few turns to stew, but at least I know I'll be able to make peace with them when the time is right.

450 -- Constantinople and Adrianople finish the settler/spearman pair and go back to churning out swordsmen.

430 -- I discover Republic and start researching literacy. Lots of people have currency, but nobody will trade it to me. Yet.

410 -- More of the same. India offers to trade me furs for ivory, or Currency, furs, and horses for Republic. I decline. I'll attack a few cities first (knock on wood), then get currency in the peace negotiations.

390 -- More moving people around.

370 -- A Russian Galley is off my shore. I buy peace for 20 gold. In retrospect, perhaps I should have sunk it, but I'm not quite sure I want to trigger my Golden Age yet.

350 -- More moving guys around, more building military units.

330 -- Constantinople starts another settler. I trade the Republic to India for Currency and 55 gold -- I'm starting to worry that other civs are well into the Middle Ages. My fear turns out to be unfounded. Only the Ottomans have a Middle Age tech -- Monotheism. I trade my freebie -- Engineering -- to the Ottomans for Monotheism, wines, 46 gold, and 29 GPT. Then I buy gems and silks from Carthage for 68 gold plus Ivory. I buy Dyes and Incense from Persia in exchange for Construction, and I clean out their treasures (a whopping 15 gold) in the process.

I didn't remember to take a screen shot at the end of the Ancient Age, but here's one from the early Middle Ages. Sardica, Naissus and Dacca weren't part of my empire by the end of the Ancient Age, but everything else was:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v337/JFliegel/MapearlyMA.jpg

And so ends the Ancient Age turn log. If you read all of this, you are a better man (or woman) than I.

DaveMcW

Aug 05, 2004, 11:39 PM

[c3c] Open

When I saw the ivory (free SoZ), I decided to go for 20k culture.

Settler factories are much less useful in a 20k game, so I ignored the game in favor of a coastal capital by the cow. I set science to 100% and built warrior military police to make sure it stayed at 100%. I did all my exploring with curraghs.

The seas east of my capital looked promising, so at the end of my first curragh's turn I fortified it for +1 visibility.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/davemcw_cotm03_bc3650.jpg

That first currragh made lots of contacts in the east, but I didn't get the tech I wanted most (Ceremonial Burial) until I met India in 2430BC. So the temple in Adrianople was built 2 turns late.

I dedicated my entire economy to making sure Adiranople won the Colossus race. And it succeeded in 1525BC.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/davemcw_cotm03_bc1550.jpg

I completed my Republic slingshot in 1450BC and drew a 5-turn anarchy. Poor Adiranople was too big, and starved every turn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/davemcw_cotm03_bc1325.jpg

As the AIs contacted each other, I set up wars to slow down their research. After I built the Mausoleum of Mausollos and Great Library, they discovered Currency and I entered the middle ages in 530BC.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/davemcw_cotm03_bc530.jpg

grahamiam

Aug 05, 2004, 11:42 PM

Cotm3 – Open

Started by looking at the screen carefully. I could clearly see the end of an animal to the NW, but I wasn’t sure if it was a lux or food. Moved the worker west and discovered it was a cow. I also could clearly make out the game to the SW. Moved the settler SW 1T and settled.

1st builds were curragh, warrior, spear (timing a chop), then granary. Not sure why I did the spear instead of a granary but I don’t think I had a prebuild available at the time.

Research and contacts went very fast. In fact, as the first 80 turns flew by, I had this feeling that I couldn't build things fast enough.
Research path was Pottery 100%(3350BC), Writing 100% (1790BC)(or max, based on lux requirements), then Philosophy @ max.
Before Philosophy was finished, I was able to trade for Masonry (2550BC), IW(1790BC), Wheel(1790BC), CB(1790BC), WC(1790BC), Myst(1700BC), Poly(1700BC), HBR (1700BC), Math(1700BC), and Map Making(1550BC).

With Philosophy, I took Currency as the free tech (both 1500BC). I then researched CoL @ max (finished 1125BC) and traded for Currency for Construction (1050BC), sending me into the MA.

Units at this time are 1 settler, 3 workers (1 had to merge due to barbs), 10 warriors, 1 archer, 3 spears, and 1 curragh.

So far, barbs have cost me a spear, a settler, a curragh, and a dromon :eek: Also, riots in the capitol have cost me about 1 settler (3 riots). For some reason, I was not playing very carefully when I know I should.

Next step is to take this island. However, I only have 8 cities right now and a large barb population on the north end of the island. One stack of barbs, before the explosion, was 7 warriors and 3 horseman. They were frozen on a mountain above my northernmost town, preventing me from crossing that range. Therefore, towards the end of the age, I finally brought up 2 spears and 1 archer and placed them directly SW of the SoD, on a mountain tile. All 10 barbs died against those units, promoting the vet spear to elite but redlining both spears. I am now waiting for them to heal before moving them north again, to soak up more barbs which I’m sure are swarming. Also, I due to the barbs, the iron is not hooked up and I have no access to horses. This should be corrected very shortly.

the temple builds are holders till i get a firm grip on what's happening with the barbs.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/cotm3-gman-1000bc.JPG

Longasc

Aug 06, 2004, 01:57 AM

I had a similar build scheme as grahamian, I am not used to the dense building style of Dave, even if it is probably more effective.

I placed your Trebizond farther south on a hill, creating both a channel and a fortress against the Indians to the East. But I did not go to war during this phase at all.

Tech trading by getting in touch early with all other civs and playing the middleman is key to success.

I stopped playing later on, as I scouted before and this would be unfair, but I wonder who will be the first to settle the north in this game.

The mountains make building roads difficult, and there is little room for good cities up there.

One could discuss the following: a very tight build and Feudalism perhaps? Going for a Conquest of the Indians in the Middle Ages? But remember, they get Knights +1 HP, War Elephants.

Longasc

Aug 06, 2004, 02:06 AM

Crakie

Aug 06, 2004, 05:25 AM

* Start: Moved my worker W and took a gamble: I moved the settler SW towards the grasslands but still on a river and coast and settled there. I would have the cow in 10 turns anyway. It paid off big time: 2 bonusfoods for a 5/3 settler factory!

What to research? I decided to take writing on minimum and use saving + gpt money to buy pottery (a cheap tech). After meeting India I did so, keeping them happy also with the gpt deal. I chopped the forest on the game tile to get the granary quickly and started expanding.

* Exploration: Built two curraghs, the first went north (of course, with that position on our minimap), and the other south and many turns later I had met every civ in the game. Managed to get ahead in tech by tech brokering and was the first to get to republic even though I had decided against the slingshot (took CoL instead, then researched republic myself)

* Barbs: a nuisance but I ended up losing only a single settler and a few archers. Really bad luck with upgrading to elite though.

* Entered republic around 500 BC, traded it for the remaining techs and alot of gold to enter MA soon afterwards.

* Warfare: My weak military and strong tech position didn't mix :D Mostly gave in to demands except for the dutch (they declared); drew in the Indians to give them something to do instead of racing ahead (along with the russians btw, they both are doing very well). Keeping my shores clean is easy with the dromons although I would have liked my GA a bit later.

* Trade: rushed a harbor and traded ivory around to get 4 luxuries. Didn't care much for the SoZ; the ottomans ended up getting it.

* Gameplan: knights! Enough said ;)

I am quite happy with how I'm doing... it's my first demigod C3C you know! (I guess that's what Ainwood loves to hear ;) )

Offa

Aug 06, 2004, 05:52 AM

A neat way to beat the RNG, well, it sort of works: When attacking, be sure to bring as many catapults as you can. I am not sure what the RNG distribution it uses (could be constant), but statistically random numbers tend to favour one outcome for awhile before switching to the other. Thus, before attacking, use the catapluts to bombard, after you see a series of failures, then a success, switch to the attacking units and go for it (of course, the attacking unit should have attacking strenght > 1 in most cases), then "statistically", you should have a run of success.

Hello, welcome to gotm.

I have often wondered about the RNG myself but was "told" quite firmly that it is actually very fair. I have often felt that there are too many runs of bad and good luck but it is difficult to be sure of this, as you tend to notice runs so much when they happen. It is certainly possible to programme a generator which is too streaky whilst overall its stats are perfect, as I have accidently done so myself in my first foray into programming (just playing :blush: ). Has anyone reliable evidence one way or another about this?

Tone

Aug 06, 2004, 06:34 AM

Yet again the fog gazers were correct. :goodjob: I wasn’t disappointed when my worker moved W and saw the cow (how do they do it?) and so Constantinople was built one tile NW of the starting position. I built two curraghs to get contacts, a warrior to explore the nearby land and then a settler to go next to the game. My second city then produced a prebuild for a granary whilst the capital city produced extra warriors. (I was caught out badly in the last classic game and did not want to suffer unduly with raging barbs again!)

My first curragh went north then west and the second went south then east, making the following contacts:

3000 India 2900 Russia 2850 Dutch 2710 Ottomans 2570 Persia

I then lost one of my curraghs to a barb galley and the other went exploring uninhabited islands. I finally met Carthage in 1125 and the Vikings in 975. This would have been much sooner if my other curragh had survived the attack. :mad:

I traded frequently with all known civs to keep up in the tech race. I also researched strongly (after an initial 50-turn research for writing) and managed to get to Philosophy first but did not chance the Republic slingshot as Persia had writing before me. I took CoL as my free tech and then went for Lit to get some cheap culture. I’m not totally comfortable at this level so this frequent trading (sometimes much cheaper than the going rate) also helped me in my cowardly stance in trying to keep in everyone’s good books. I also set up embassies with the nearby civs that I knew (India, Russia and Ottomans), using the proceeds from some profitable deals, leaving the others until I had spare cash and they could get to me. :D

In 1350 Persia demanded a tech. I declined and so they declared war but I could put up with that as I was confident that they couldn’t get to me. Last time I checked they also didn’t have iron so even if they did I would not have to deal with their UU. I eventually made peace as I was losing trading opportunities.

Barbs were a bit of a problem and slowed down my initial development. I had placed a warrior on the land bridge so I couldn’t rely on the AI to help me out and so I had more archers and spears than I normally would have. I cleared the main area but the north was a real problem-particularly when the uprising came before I could deal with them. I lost countless spears, several ancient cavs (got SoZ in 850BC) and a couple of settlers that they were escorting. I also saw three AI settlers lost to this fearsome bunch. Unfortunately the Vikings got to the horses before me but I eventually got the rest of ‘my area’.

In 610BC we become a Monarchy but at war with the Dutch who declared war when we were in anarchy. The Dutch were a bit more of a problem as they could reach us but their attacks were too feeble to trouble our swords and ancient cavs. In 550BC we buy currency to enter the Middle Ages, get Fued as our free tech and then get the other first tier techs by trading and gifting techs to the other scientific civs and then buying alliances with many civs against the Dutch to keep them off my back.

If I’ve managed it correctly this is a screenshot of my empire at 1000BC.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=64040&stc=1

Roland Ehnström

Aug 06, 2004, 06:39 AM

COTM03_Open

*** Ancient Times ***

4000 BC - Worker W. Reveals the expected Cattle, along with two very nice BG+River tiles. Settler1 NW, moving towards the Cattle while staying on the coast and next to the River.

3950 BC - Worker N, to Cattle. Reveals Ivory. Settler1 settles Constantinople. Constantinople starts producing Curragh. Our scientists start researching Writing at minimum rate (20%).

3900 BC - Worker starts Road.

3750 BC - Road finished. Tech-rate dropped to 10%. Worker starts Irrigating.

3700 BC - Curragh completed and is sent north, production switched to Warrior.

3550 BC - Irrigation of Cattle tile finished. Worker1 moves W to Ivory, discovering more Ivory on the other side of the River.

3500 BC - Worker starts Road. Warrior completed in Constantinople, work on Settler started. Warrior moves west to expore the inland.

3450 BC - Our Curragh, having reached the northern end of our continent, spots another continent to the north east. The coast is 4 tiles away...

3400 BC - Our brave Curragh makes the plunge, ending on a Sea square...

3350 BC - Our Curragh survives! Our Worker completes road to Ivory, and our people are happy. :)

3150 BC - Constantinople completes second Settler, starts a second Curragh.

3100 BC - Our Worker starts chopping forest at the Game in preperation for Settler-factory. Our Warrior sees important choke-point to the southwest.

3050 BC - Adrianople founded on the other side of the river, next to the Game.

3000 BC - Machiavelli claims we are the happiest nation in the world. :)

2900 BC - Constantinople completes second Curragh, sent out south, and starts Settler. Our first Warrior spots a Purple boarder to the west!

2750 BC - We contact the Indians. They have Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial. They want lots of Gold for those techs, so we pass on their offer.

2710 BC - Our first Warrior moves back east towards the choke-point, to keep the Indians off our half of the continent.

2630 BC - Indians have The Wheel, but won't trade. Our second Curragh spots a Barbarian camp with 2 Warriors, on the coast just 6 tiles from Constantinople. Would be cool (or rather "hot") if that Volcano next to it would suddenly erupt... ;)

2470 BC - We buy Pottery from the Indians for 190 Gold. Production switched to Granary in Constantinople and Adrianople.

2390 BC - Our first Curragh makes contact with the Dutch. They have The Wheel, Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burian, just like the Indians.

2310 BC - Our first Curragh makes contact with the Carthaginians. They have 5 techs which we don't have...

2270 BC - Caesarea settled on top of the hill on the narrow bridge to India.

2190 BC - Our second Curragh make contact with Russia. They give us The Wheel, Masonry and 9 Gold for Alphabet. Horses spotted far to the north of our continent, as well as on an island to the east, and next to the Indian boarder in the west. Meanwhile, we notice that Carthage have discovered Writing, and they won't trade it to us.

2110 BC - Our first Curragh finds the Ottomans. They have only Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial.

2070 BC - Adrianople completes Granary, opens Settler-factory.

2030 BC - Our first Curragh sees Russians running around on Ottoman soil, so they obviousely share continent.

1950 BC - We dispere a Barbarian camp.

1910 BC - Constantinople completes Granary, opens Settler-factory.

1870 BC - Our second Curragh survives an attack from 3 Barbarian Galleys and becomes Elite.

1775 BC - There is a major Barbarian camp (3 Warriors + 2 Horsemen) at the northern end of our continent, close to the Horses. :(

1725 BC - Our scientists discover Writing and start Philsophy. Tech-slider to 90% (13 turns). We are the third civ, of the ones we have met (all but two), to discover Writing, after Carthage and Russia.

1700 BC - Nicea founded as a wedge into India.

1650 BC - Varna founded on the west coast. Carthage now have Map Making...

1625 BC - Smyrna founded on the river north of the Ivory.

1525 BC - A Barbarian Horseman attacks Smyrna, but loses to our fortified Warrior.

1500 BC - Our first Curragh spots a light purple boarder, moves that way, ending on a Sea tile, but makes contact with the Vikings. They have Map Making...

1475 BC - Our first Curragh sinks.

1450 BC - Heraclea founded south of Constantinople. Our second Curragh sinks. Russia now have knowledge of Mathematics. Philosophy in 1 turn...

1425 BC - We discover Philosphy, and, yes, we are first! We pick Literature as our free tech.

Tech-trading:

Map Making + Ceremonial Burial from Carthage for Philosophy + 32 Gold.
Mathematics + Warrior Code + Mysticism from Russia for Literature + 95 Gold.
Iron Working + Horseback Riding + 65 Gold from The Netherlands for Philosophy.
Polytheism + 1 Gold from Ottomans for Philosophy.

We now have a tech-lead on all the other civs, and are researching Currency. Iron is spotted north of Constantinople.

1300 BC - Constantinople is the first of our towns to complete a Library.

1275 BC - Adrianople completes Library.

1175 BC - India don't even have Writing, but incredibly they have Currency! They trade it to us for Polytheism, Horseback Riding and 9 Gold. Russia have Code of Laws, but won't trade it to us even for Currency and a lot of Gold. We are now researching Construction.

1150 BC - Ottomans now have Code of Laws while Russia have Currency. We trade our knowledge of Currency with the Ottomans for Code of Laws.

1100 BC - Gandhi demands Map Making as a tribute. We have no military, so we have no choice but to give him what he wants.

1075 BC - Trebizond is founded on the west coast, north of Varna.

1050 BC - William of the Dutch wants Code of Laws. As we are thinking about founding a city or two on "his" continent, we decide to give him what he wants. Chalkedon founded north of the Iron.

1000 BC - Sardica founded up north.

QSC stats:
10 Towns
1 Settler
6 Workers
3 Warriors
1 Spearman
All Ancient techs except Construction, Monarchy and The Republic.
Contact with all other civilizations except one.

http://www.ehnstrom.se/roland/diverse/COTM03_1000BC.jpg

950 BC - India send a Galley our way. It is attacked by a stack of 6 Barbarian Galleys, but sinks every one of them!

900 BC - Naissus founded north of Smyrna.

875 BC - Dyrrachium founded on the continent to the east.

730 BC - Septum founded next to Dyrrachium. There is a MASSIVE Barbarian uprising near Sardica, featuring no less than 30 Horsemen! WE DISCOVER CONSTRUCTION AND ENTER THE MIDDLE AGES!

http://www.ehnstrom.se/roland/diverse/COTM03_End_AT.jpg

I'm attaching an even longer version of the turn-log, with unit-movement and micro-management details up until 2000 BC. I would be eternally grateful if one of the top-players would play this through and tell me exactly what I do wrong in my early game.

(I have already submitted my game, so I do meet the requirements to post in this thread, even though at the end of the AT I had not yet met Persia.)

-- Roland

grahamiam

Aug 06, 2004, 06:42 AM

I think it would be helpful if someone could find the thread about barbarian behaviour. Many probably have stacks of barbs up north!

It would be helpful to know what would trigger them to swarm and prevent worker activities e.g.
2 things to remember here in regards to C3C barbs that help.

first: barbs only attack or move if a unit is SW/NE or NW/SE of it. When I was going to try to connect my iron, my 1st worker moved to the forrest. This caused a huge barb SoD start moving allong the mountain ridge in the SE direction. I therefore moved the worker N to the iron hill and they froze. I build the road to the iron and then merged the worker into Varna. Should have mined the iron 1st but, oh well. when i killed that SoD, the 2 spears and the archer "sneaked" directly from the S, then plopped themselves on a mountain the thier SE. they promptly impailed themselves on those spears.

second: raging barbs produce, iirc, 24 units to spawn at each barb camp when 2 or more civ's exit the AA @ DG. In this case, it was me and the dutch. I would expect anywhere between 20 and 48 barb units on the Northern half of the island, hence the archer builds. I will probably upgrade some warriors to MDI's (i have around 1300g in the bank) to clear out the land once that droman is done. don't know yet as i've stopped at 1000bc and haven't had time to get back to it.

Redbad

Aug 06, 2004, 07:39 AM

Here’s a little story over my strategies and tactics in the AA of conquests 03. I don’t do timelines so it’s more global write-up.

The initial planning phase.
After moving my worker west he scouted the cow and bonusgras. By moving the settler NW the cow could be utilised immediately and later on the bonusgras. My careerplan was, considering the archipelago map, my seafearing trait and the UU, to become an aggressive, maritime coloniser. The matching studyplan could be to research Writing and Philo at max and get Mapmaking for free. It being a game at demigod-level, I didn’t think there would be enough time to research CoL before Philo. And anyway, in C3C Republic isn’t supportive of a large army or fleet. Up until now I haven’t done Feudalism, so I’ll give that a try. Being scientific I might even get it for free. After founding Constantinople the buildingorders were curragh, curragh, settler, warrior, warrior, granary. The first settler would found the city that was destined to build the Great Lighthouse. The GL combined with seafearing and dromons would make me ruler of the waves for a thousand years. Considering the elephants I probably could build the Statue of Zeus unchallenged after the GL.

The harsh reality.
The first curragh went north and west, the second south and east. Before getting knocked out by barbboats they contacted all the other civ’s. Adrianople was founded to the SW on the river and coast and with a number of BG’s nearby. Excellent. The warriors enlighted the black spots left by the curraghs. Then suddenly I realized that Ainwood must have guessed my initial plan and left it completely ridicoulus. First: the reconnaissance by the curraghs showed that anyone with just a bathtub could sail the seas, Great Lighthouse or not. Second: my closest neighbour, India is connected over land with my. Third: the old G-man must have connected Viagra cause India is expanding very rapidly. Fourth: a lot of Indian cities, including its capitol are out of reach from dromon bombardment.

The revised plan.
Knowing all the other civ’s made me tech leader for quite some time. Trading IronWorking revealed iron on a hill north of my capitol. I decided to fall out of character for a seafearing nation and prepare for a landwar with India. The goal is to marginalise them before they can send their warelephants to the battlefield. India and I are on opposite sides of the Firaxis score (and I’m not on top) so the war will be long and bloody.
My new plan is: after researching Writing and Philo get Literature for free. Then immediately quit school and build cash. Not build the Great Lighthouse but the other GL(ibrary). Knowing all civ’s, the GL will keep me informed. Most of my cities will either build barracks and warriors or build catapults. I build Varna NO of ironhill to get it my cultural area. On ironhill I placed a worker who would build a road there for many centuries to come. Each time the ironhillworker finished his road, I would upgrade my warriors and then the warrior MPing Varna would come out and pillage the new road. That way I could continu to build warriors and have practically no risk of the iron to deplete (I’m pretty sure a resource doesn’t deplete if it’s not connected). Finally: considering the facts that the war will be long and I’m buying (upgrading) my army, it’s in my interest to have a slow tech pace. That way I can rely on the GL for a long time. So each time I get a tech from the GL I investigate who doesn’t’t have that tech yet. Then I can use that tech to start war’s between the other civ’s, which will frustrate their tech pace.

In 590BC, shortly before the end of the AA, Byzantium (8 cities, 325 firaxis) decides to boldly go where only India (18 cities, 935 firaxis) has gone before. Uninvited ofcourse.
My army at that time: 1 settler, 6 workers, 4 warriors, 9 swordsmen, 1 catapult & 1 dromon.
I’m sure the new plan will work…..I think

Lamprey

Aug 06, 2004, 07:52 AM

Here's my first post on GOTM forum.

The way I passed my AA, open class.

-moved the settler inland 3 tiles on Ivory, cow close to. I dont like placing capitol on a coast. The capitol should be in a centre of empire.

-writing on min and philosofy on max. Did not risk free tech by researching CoL first. There was a nonreload-game before where it didnt work. Took Literature as a free tech.

-4-5 cities placed around the capital.

-Built libriries everywhere. They give 3 culture and 50% reseach bonus just for 40shields.

-fought with barbs with a stck of archer+sperman. A very good combination at the earlier stage.

-indians suddenly declared war. SoZ built. Position war. I defended on a hill SW. A catapult and a dromon made bombardments, while archers, swords and ancients tried to kill mainly ingured targets. Many indian units killed, they are ready to a peace but I refuse since happy bonus from the war and hope for units promotion (very little though).

-republique researched. 4-turn anarchy. My two dromons bombard indian coast seeking for their or ottoman galley to start GA. (Ottomans declared war after I refused to give them literature).

-I see indian galley pass the east side where there are no dromons of mine. Hurry one in a closest city. Next turn indian galley is sunk, GA started.

-Peace with indians. Troops send to upgrading as feudalism recieved as free tech (scientific nation). By that time Russians pay 100 gold per turn to me and fight with Ottomans as allies. May be that was a mistake - forcing Russians into battle. Cause I'd like a diplomatik or Space victory.

Going forward I'd Like to tell how got rid of 20+barbs to the north. I unloaded settler on horse tile on the North tip. Barbs camp was 3 tiles away. After unloading They all rushed to the settler. I founded a city. Spended all left money on embassies. Next turn all horsemen dissappered in that new city causing no harm to me.

I dont remember the year of going into the MA, now I play at 200AD and recently reseached Education.

-0blivion-

Aug 06, 2004, 08:08 AM

COTM3: Open

My first GOTM of any sort. The Ancient Ages were excellent, my best time in the game. I wish it could have stayed that way all way through :lol:

In 4000 BC, i moved the worker west, and saw the cow. I unfortunately didn't see the game. I moved the settler NW for river, cow and sea. I built three curraghs right off the dot, and set research to writing at min science. I saw the Ivory.

In 3350 BC, my third curragh completed, and i set Constantinople to a settler.
In 3200 BC, this third curragh saw a chokepoint SW of Constantinople. I put a city here (on a hill!) as high priority.

But first in 2950 BC, i settled Adrianople which would be my 5 turn factory using the game. In the same year, India were contacted, on my landmass. The chokepoint city became very high priority. India were up Masonry, Pottery and CB.

The trading game commences

In 2850 BC, Scandinavia was contacted, up WC, the wheel and Masonry.
In 2800 BC, Russia were contacted. They were down alphabet. I shipped her alphabet for WC, Pottery and 10$.
In 2710 BC, the Ottomans were contacted. I trade alphabet for Masonry, CB and 35$.
In 2510 BC, i met Carthage. They were up the wheel.
In 2310 BC, i trade Pottery, CB and 67$ to Scandinavia for the wheel. Horses up North.
In 2230 BC, the wheel and CB goes to Cathy for Iron Working. Iron!
In 1950 BC, i met the Dutch. They were up writing, when we had 7 turns to
go. IW and 10$ to them for Writing. Rep slingshot to risky, they have writing. Philo in 21.
In 1830 BC, Writing and 90$ goes to Carthage for Mysticism and HBR.
In 1750 BC, Writing and Myst goes to Ottomans for Mathematics.
In 1500 BC, the Ottomans get philo! They take Poly as their free tech. I will finish researching philo (3 turns). Dutch pick up MM. Masonry and the wheel goes to the dutch for MM.
In 1450 BC, Philo comes in. Research to CoL.
In 1400 BC, i trade philo to Dutch for 247$. I trade it to Carthage for 167$.
In 1150 BC, the Dutch get CoL before me. Math and 30$ gets it. CoL and 230$ goes to Ottomans for Poly. Poly to Scandinavia for Lit and 140$. Finally contact Persia now too. They don't know much.
In 1125 BC, Literature and 220$ goes to Ottomans for Construction. Trade Poly to Cathy for 147$ and Philosophy to Persia for 47$.
Everyone else starting researching government techs. I self researched poly which i completed in 610 BC and hit the MA ahead of everyone else.

The First Indian War

In 1650 BC, India demanded Mysticism. I refused. I had a choke city, on a hill, with walls and 2 spears. Great kill zone. Gandhi declared. The war ended in 850 BC. Did my kill zone work? Yes it did.

At the walls of Caesarea (choke city), many Indian units met their death:

- 9 warriors
- 8 archers
- 4 horseman
- 5 swords

I lost one elite spear, but not before he did this..

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Justinian.JPG

So I came out of the war with a sword army, 20 shields worth of units lost, 520 shields of enemy units killed and some gold to boot.

Home Affairs

Constantinople founded 3950 BC.
Adrianople founded 2950 BC.
Caeasarea founded 2230 BC.
Varna founded 1500 BC.
Smyrna founded 1400 BC.
Heraclea founded 1225 BC.
Trebizond founded 925 BC.
Chalcedon founded 875 BC.
Sardica founded 710 BC.
Naissus founded 650 BC.

Russia nabbed the horses...my settler and escort were murdered by barbs going there. So that was my AA. I will see you again in the MA spoiler.

Akane

Aug 06, 2004, 08:11 AM

C3C Open (wow, first COTM/GOTM too... wish me luck... :) )

4000 BC: Much debate was undertaken regarding the settler move. As for
myself: we stayed put. Byzantium built 4000 BC.

3950 BC: As discussed additionally, the slingshot is started.

3400 BC: Following the cultural expansion, the cows are being worked.
It'll probably be nice to put a production city on that river at a
later time...

2950 BC: Russians and Indians. Neither one has talked to the other
though; after two trades, I'm two techs richer (as are my rivals)...
I'm maybe one tech behind Russia and even with India.
[Ind: cerem. bur. - 100 gld +6gpt]
[Rus: alph - pottery]
[Ind: pottery - 100 gld +2gpt]

And to the interest of few, probably because I'm preaching to the
crowd... this is a BIG island. And only two civ's on it... uh-oh.....

2030 BC: Bad news, Russians already have writing. Give some money for
Masonry and cross my fingers.

1300 BC: The slingshot... kinda worked. Amazingly enough. I started
Phil., hoping that I could trade for CoL somewhere down the line... but
no dice. Shoot. Oh well, Monarchy gained from it; I believe I hold
the tech lead for the time being. The Russians were happier gaining
Mapmaking, and refused to trade it to me. The Vikings, if I remember
correctly, had no such problems. With my super curraghs, making
contact with everyone possible.

950 BC: Missed by one turn, oops. Anyway... numbers are eight cities
and the units below, as well as the map.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=64049&stc=1

750 BC: Barb uprising. Must've been the Russians, I've been a taker
more than a giver so far... and sure enough, it is. I'm going to see
if I can scrounge up the money for my own MA advancement.
--And sure enough, after speaking with the Vikings, my own middle age
popped at 750 BC. As a player who has handled Regent without much of a
problem and still has issues with Monarch at times, I must admit that
this is the earliest MA I've ever received. MA Tech: Engineering.

Things to ponder for next GOTM:
Indians are LARGE. And in charge. I should have attempted SOMETHING
against them, but I didn't. I'm still not a very good player when it
comes to starting military conflicts. Additionally, after reading Dave
McW's commentary, I see I probably attempted the wrong path with this
game. Unless the AIs start taking each other down a few pegs, I'm
probably sunk. Oh well, we'll just keep on plugging away and see what
happens. :)

With this amazingly quick tech-pace, I may attempt to draw others
into wars before the time comes for United Nations and see if I can
wheedle out a diplomatic victory out of this mess... :)

SniperDevil

Aug 06, 2004, 08:14 AM

What technologies should i research, in the Middle Ages, if I wish to stay ahead in the tech race? And should i try to go to war to stay ahead in tech race?

Lamprey

Aug 06, 2004, 08:21 AM

I R Possom for technology i had writing- min philosophy- max and got map making as the free tech
i built the pyramids and two turns before i got statue of zeus the indians built it

It's not a good idea building Piramides unless u got a lot of land to settle. Map Making is also not the best step as AI likes to resarch it by its own.

Jason Fliegel My elite swordsman defeated the barbs, but he didn't generate a leader

Barbs never bring leaders.

Redbad

Aug 06, 2004, 08:41 AM

What technologies should i research, in the Middle Ages, if I wish to stay ahead in the tech race? And should i try to go to war to stay ahead in tech race?

You can do one or the other. If you want to research you should research the upper side of the mediaval techs. The AI tends to research the lower side first, so that way you can trade. Moreover you are scientific so you could take advantage of Education.
It's also possible to go pointy-stick research: attack India in force and take two or three cities. Then offer peace for tech's. Continue to build your army and repeat the procedure after 20 turns. It only works ofcourse as long as India is capable of serious research and you are militairy superior.

Civgeek

Aug 06, 2004, 09:13 AM

Akane

Aug 06, 2004, 09:32 AM

The seas east of my capital looked promising, so at the end of my first curragh's turn I fortified it for +1 visibility.

Now that's a new trick to me; very handy to know. Does it work for land units as well?

And if you have end of turn switched on, would it then be possible to fortify a unit and then go back, unfortify and give new orders to that unit before having to end the turn?

al_thor

Aug 06, 2004, 11:36 AM

Akane: Yes.

Akane

Aug 06, 2004, 12:08 PM

Akane: Yes.
Wow, the things I learn here. Such as this and how to not be beaten within six seconds at this COTM... :)

klarius

Aug 06, 2004, 12:08 PM

first: barbs only attack or move if a unit is SW/NE or NW/SE of it.

That's not true for zero defense units, as my dead workers cannot tell you any more. :cry:
So you also have to cover workers and settlers always.
I had also another problem. Two barb horses were comfortably resting in the north and I just ignored them. Then all of a sudden they moved, probably because steenkin' Ghandi sent a warrior. Three turns later they came out of the fog again ready to attack my capital. :mad:
Coupled with the fact that I also lost several archers attacking with theoretical good chances, the barbs were more than a nuisance in this game.
I think raging barbs on demi-sid is just crazy :crazyeye:

denyd

Aug 06, 2004, 12:21 PM

Finished qualifing for this last night, but won't get write up out until later.

Jason: I did read your whole post (so it was worth posting) and very nice start. A couple of things to note: You can't get a great leader for battles with barbarians. After my unit becomes elite I normally withdraw him from the barb wars (if I can afford it) and send out another unit. As for your choice of Code of Laws as the Philosophy bonus, COL is one of the cheaper AA techs, you'd have gotten a lot more value from another tech.

For those who were complaining about when attacking barbarians, there isn't any bonus when attacking at this level (on little or none defensive), so if you attack with a warrior or archer against a barb warrior fortified on a mountain or hill, your below a 50-50 win chance. As for Dromon losses, I've only built 1 so far and it's killed the only barb galley it met (just good luck in RNG).

For those who gave it up early, for a learning expierence try it again and concentrate on exploration, contacts, trading and expansion. You can get a couple of curragh built before Constantinople can do much else. Get them out exploring ASAP. You don't have to break the bank on your first contact. Wait until you meet a couple more AI and try to buy tech A from AI 1 and trade it to AI 2 for tech B and then sell tech B back to AI 1 for your cash back. JasonFleigal did this very well a couple of times getting 3-4 techs and winding up ahead on cash. The story of Theodora to follow later today.

grahamiam

Aug 06, 2004, 12:33 PM

That's not true for zero defense units, as my dead workers cannot tell you any more. :cry:
So you also have to cover workers and settlers always.
I had also another problem. Two barb horses were comfortably resting in the north and I just ignored them. Then all of a sudden they moved, probably because steenkin' Ghandi sent a warrior. Three turns later they came out of the fog again ready to attack my capital. :mad:
Coupled with the fact that I also lost several archers attacking with theoretical good chances, the barbs were more than a nuisance in this game.
I think raging barbs on demi-sid is just crazy :crazyeye:
that was very true of my worker, as long as it wasn't directly next to the barb. However, your point is correct if you are directly N/S or E/W, then yes, you need a defense of at least 1 (edit)to ensure that the barb won't move. i gotta find that thread for everyone...
the movement you noticed due to an AI civ unit is definitely something you need to be on the lookout for. Once the barbs get "unstuck", you are no longer in control and they could end up anywhere wrt your units. though it is a good tactic to just let the AI civ's kill all the barbs for you. that was how I got my town south of the capitol.
barbs are a pain and i hate them. remember that you get a disadvantage attacking them @ emperor and above, which makes them even more difficult to deal with. good luck :)

Symphony D.

Aug 06, 2004, 12:38 PM

first: barbs only attack or move if a unit is SW/NE or NW/SE of it.

Oh, yes, there's no question of that with regards to combat units. Later on in my game the Dutch built a city near the northern tip of the peninsula you start on (below the swamps). There was a stack of 32 Horsemen immediately south of them. We were at war and the only way to get to them was to power through the horsemen, attempt a naval invasion, or try and go past them (into a SE tile) and get butchered. Annoying.

I probably couldn't relate anything here that hasn't been done better... I decided to give up in 1510 AD anyway. Fighting TOW Infantry with Cavalry isn't exactly my idea of fun. :rolleyes:

grahamiam

Aug 06, 2004, 12:57 PM

I think it would be helpful if someone could find the thread about barbarian behaviour. Many probably have stacks of barbs up north!

finally, here's the bug report -> http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=87625

al_thor

Aug 06, 2004, 01:23 PM

COTM03: Open Class

As usual, I am torn between being a Builder and a Conquerer. I can never seem to dedicate myself to one or the other. Probably why my scores are mediocre.

Anyway:
Set Tech path to: Pottery, Writing, Philosophy (going for Monarchy as free tech).

Build some Curroughs & warriors for exploration. Meet all Civs by middle of AA. Trading puts me ahead in the Tech race.

India spreads like cockroaches. And then they get the Pyramids and spread like diseased cockroaches. Incredible.

I establish embasies with most of the civs. Several declare war on me for not giving in to demands. I form alliances to get as many as possible into War Mode. I don't even build one Offensive unit. Russia is allied with me against Ottoman's. Netherlands are allied with me against Persia. India wants too much for alliance or even ROP. He is happy to expand like a mad man, and worries me greatly with his size. I don't know why he does not demand tech from me - I have no deals at all with him.

Fours turns to completing the ToZ, I am now at war with Russia, Carthage, Dutch. I am allied with Ottoman's and Persia. Persia is huge but Technologically challenged. I have Iron hooked up but no Swords. Horses are secured but a long way from being hooked up. India finishes the Great Library. India signs alliance with Russia against me :eek: I finally build my FIRST offensive unit!! (He is quickly dispatched by Regular Indian Archer).

He takes 2 or 3 workers and pillages some roads, but my Spears hold him back (I have a city at the pinch-point). A great Leader is born from one of my valliant Elite Spears. He is in great risk of being destroyed, as I am down to 1 Elite Spear and 1 Veteran Spear in that city, and India is coming with Horse, Sword, and Archer forces. My Droman also sees a bunch of Midevil Infantry rolling out of Indian cities on the way to the front. In the Pinch City, I rush build Spear and then Archer and then Walls and back to more Spear. India is held off for now, and my Leader is relatively safe :cool:

I have finished the ToZ and also triggered my Golden Age with a (rare) Droman victory. I have a couple of Pikes on the way to fortify the Pinch-Point City, as well as a couple of Midevil Infantry. I plan to make an Army out of Ancient Cavalry. I am also 7 turns away from Chivalry, with a small pre-build set for Knights Templar - I should get it with the extra shields coming in from the Golden Age.

I don't know the exact numbers right now, but India is AT LEAST 4 times my Size (maybe even 5 times) and Score and Culture. However, I will not end this war until he is decimated and I own the Pyramids (Great Library will be obsolete by then) and most if not all of his land. Then I will continue with Russia. I am dead last in score and culture, and I think Land Area as well. I hold a Tech advantage by the skin of my teeth.

RNG Blues - :(
I lost 4 or 5 Curroughs and 4 Dromans :mad: to lowly Barbarian galleys.
I lost a Sword, 2 Archers (1 Elite), a Veteran Spear, and 2 Midevil Infantry (1 Elite) to Regular Indian Archers. I watched as a red-lined Regular Indian Warrior took out a stack of fortified Barbarian Warriors.

Jason Fliegel

Aug 06, 2004, 01:47 PM

Redbad

Aug 06, 2004, 01:47 PM

COTM03: Open Class

Russia is allied with me against Ottoman's. Netherlands are allied with me against Persia.

Fours turns to completing the ToZ, I am now at war with Russia, Carthage, Dutch. I am allied with Ottoman's and Persia.

You ought to be more consistent with your friends and foes. At higher levels the AI rather remembers you as a foe than as a friend if you've been both.

al_thor

Aug 06, 2004, 01:54 PM

Redbad:
I have NOT gone back on any deals or alliances. I stayed at war for the full 20 turns, cancelled the Alliances and made Peace. I have been very careful about my reputation. No ROP Rape or backstabbing for me.
I have not declared war on anyone this game (yet). It's all come from the AI demanding things from me and I refuse. The people that I am at peace with are more than happy to trade with me - my rep is good.

al_thor

Aug 06, 2004, 01:58 PM

If the AI chooses to "hold a grudge", well, so be it. They will all be dead in the end anyway. :hammer: :ar15: It's Conquest/Domination all the way for me this game baby!

Redbad

Aug 06, 2004, 02:15 PM

al thor:
My rep is not good: i had 2 times peace with gandhi for only 10 turnes (by that time I had regrouped). But my long lasting friendships with the Dutch (I have somehow a weak spot for them) and with Carthage kept them allways polite or gracious. Russia has been my friend too, but she had accidently build one city on my parish. After I insisted that I should manage that city, she never forgave me and stayed furious nearly all the time.
I'm going for space, so my rep isn't al that important either.

bed_head7

Aug 06, 2004, 02:59 PM

Here is what I noted during my turns. Pretty random events that I noted. I stop when I find Persia instead of right when I get to the Middle Ages. I will also attach a couple of screenshots, also taken at random. I think I will be submitting this game unlike a number of the first posters, although as a loss, as I see no way of catching up in tech. My main mistakes have mostly concerned barbarians and non-focus on military. Although I managed to establish a city at the choke and beyond it, when the time comes (came) I have no way to hold it. But I guess that will have to wait for the next spoiler.

2710 BC - First thing worth noting happens. I meet Russia and India the same turn. India has alphabet, unfortunately, but Russia does not, so I get Warrior Code, Pottery, and Ceremonial Burial for the Alphabet and 3 gold.

2470 BC - Another big round of trading, after meeting the Ottomans and the Vikings the same turn. I manage to even up with most, and leave a few behind, as well as gain over a hundred gold. Will use it to establish embassies and find out who knows who (after getting writing that is). Of course, with writing due in 19, it will be awhile, but it seems like most are unaware of each other, based on the fact that they all had different techs even though they are relatively near. I also discover that most have built three or four settlements, while I have only built one, and will not be building more especially quickly because there does not seem to be any settler factory material. At the very end of my turn, I decide to use a veteran warrior to attack a conscript barb in grassland. Of course, I lost, and can't expand north until I get another warrior. Am pleased, however, to find iron.

2390 - Having serious barb problems, with them coming at me from the north and the south. Also meet Carthage, who gives 95 gold for The Wheel.

2190 - Carthage has Math, but wants more for it than I can get back. I will want it though, as it seems that I am the only civ with Ivory, which creates the possibility of some conquest, which I had pretty much ruled out with this being my first demigod attempt a week and a half after my first emperor attempt.

2150 - Then again, maybe not. India booted me from her territory, and I noticed she is up to six, and I am just about to build my third at or near the choke.

2030 - India picks up Math, meaning Carthage will give it up for Mysticism and Iron Working, which is fine with me. So now I am even with Carthage and India, up on everyone else, and have 431 gold, while everyone else except India, who has apparently been barb hunting, has 0.

1990 - Scandinavia somehow gets writing, seven turns before me. I decide to take a chance and don't trade with him to get it, hoping he won't trade it around (not much to trade).

1950 - Decide to start Adrianople on SoZ. Probably a bad move at this point, but I could use some free units, and the earlier I get it, the more I get. I may switch it to Caesarea instead though. I also lost one Curragh last turn to barbs, while another was victorious.

1830 - Lose a settler to barbs, because I sent a warrior as escort instead of spearman. Adrinople threatened.

1725 - Though with the barbarians, this game has gone from bad to depressing, there is one bright note. The Russians and the Ottomans have contact, and the the Scandinavians and the Carthaginians have contact, but are at war, so I can pretty well control who knows what for a little while longer. I still don't know the last civ (Persia according to F10), though.

1650 - I have lost another settler to barbs, and am in big trouble. I hope I make it to the middle ages.

1000 - Carthage is easily the tech leader, already in the middle ages. I am working on Currency at the 50-turn rate, and I guess Scandinavia is done with researching, after a short burst. I have tons of gold, but only six cities and a settler. Overall, I am in terrible shape, and would probably be getting close to colonizing another island if not for my blunder with the barbarians. I think I will be trapped here, and eventually eaten by the Indians.

900 - The Dutch are coming to settle my island!

850 - For some reason, the Dutch galley was never attacked by barbarians, so I was surprised when a barbarians galley came and sank my Dromon. It only lasted two turns.

690 - Galleys, presumably with settlers, are swarming. I may have a small advantage in settling elswhere in that I know where everything is, but I failed to get everything north of the choke point. I traded into the Middle Ages and got both gov techs for all my money, pretty much. Got Fuedalism for free tech, and made all my money back plus a little extra, and picked up monotheism. I am also preparing to remove the Dutch from my island, though that still leaves Indian settlements and a Russian settler. Even though I have the gov techs, though, it is not at all worth it. Support costs in republic would eat me up, and I would rather go republic for commerce bonus and my lack of warring. I would like to only make one switch, so I will just learn Engineering at the 50-turn rate and hope I can expand a bit before making the switch to republic.

610 - Lost my second dromon to barbs, this time I was attacking, and the barb again didn't lose any hp. I did manage to destroy the Dutch settlement without loss, and have yet to see a response.

IT - India demands Monarchy, I give it up without hesitation. I would be destroyed in a matter of turns if India decided she wanted me gone. I am waiting on SoZ so I don't have to be so submissive, but I have a feeling it won't make a huge difference.

570 - Finally found Persia, though I can't talk to them yet. Next turn, will see where they are.

First screenshot (choke.jpg) shows the Ottomans defense of the chokepoint on their continent, which I was surprised to see so early. Next two are pretty self explanatory, my empire at 1000 B.C., and my empire at 2800 B.C., the year Adrianople was founded.

Edit: Forgot to mention something. The reason it took so long to find Persia was a group of barbarian galleys in the way. Twice I lost curraghs while going towards what would be being Persia.

Longasc

Aug 06, 2004, 03:07 PM

So what is your overall strategy in one sentence?

Cultural / Space Race or Conquest?

If you are an aggressor, WHOM do you want to subiugate first?

As probably most have the Statue of Zeus, why not try to mess with India, in spite of the War Elephant being a strong attacker.

They are peaceful, aggression 1. You have a natural chokepoint to protect your empire if this war should really go wrong: the small landbridge near the Indian subcontinent. Many players have established a channel-city there.

You could even use your Dromons for defence!

Akane

Aug 06, 2004, 03:47 PM

They are peaceful, aggression 1. You have a natural chokepoint to protect your empire if this war should really go wrong: the small landbridge near the Indian subcontinent. Many players have established a channel-city there.

You could even use your Dromons for defence!

There were a smattering of people who had and also didn't have that chokepoint. I took it myself... but then the Indians forced me from it anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if others had the same problem...

Trust me, the Gandhi in my game is more than happy to get my land. :crazyeye:

Redbad

Aug 06, 2004, 03:49 PM

So what is your overall strategy in one sentence?

Cultural / Space Race or Conquest?

If you are an aggressor, WHOM do you want to subiugate first?

I didn't decide on victory-type on forehand. In this situtation it seemed problematic to win without dealing with Gandhi. But by the time I would have defeated India the other civs would strong and advanced. It will not be easy to get rid of them too. On the other hand: the former Indian grounds are very well suited for a builders-victory like spaceship. So I decided to go for that one.

StanNP

Aug 06, 2004, 03:58 PM

Start
My start was well planned. I’d built a practice map and tried out my strategy, so I knew my build order, depending on what other resources were revealed.

I was sure we had a cow to the NW, so much so that when it was actually revealed, I did not even think about it.

Settler moves W then N to cow hex. Settler moves one hex NW

My strategy was to build settlers as quickly as I could. I wanted to grow fast and grab territory on other islands as soon as Droms are ready. I planned to research pottery at 100% (17 turns) and have a granary prebuild ready to go when pottery was complete. Since C3C has 4 turn forest cuts, this would be integral to my quick start. After the Cow was irrigated and roaded, I would start cutting, even after I saw the two BG to the west. 10 shields in 4 turns was worth more then +1 shield after 6 turns of mining. Based on my pre-game practice, I would get 2 cuts (20 shields) added to my 60 shield granary.

Another issue that was discovered in my pre-game practice was that my city growth from 2 to 3 would occur about the same time as my granary completing. This was a problem because I would have more food and my granary half full if I completed it before I grew the city from 2 to 3. My practice showed me growing 1 or 2 turns before the granary completed. This caused me to violate a cardinal rule and stop my growth (stop working the cow! STOP WORKING THE COW!! ARE YOU INSANE?) for 2 turns so my granary would finish before my city grew from 2 to 3.

I had also planned to cut during my settler build, so that I was only depending on my growth (8-10 turns depending on 2 or 3 food/turn) before I was ready to complete my settler. This worked out perfectly, as I got one cut (10 shields) added to my first settler by starting the cut right after the granary was complete, during a curragh build before I started my settler.

So the initial build order looked like this; curragh, warrior, curragh, granary (2 cuts), curragh, settler (1 cut). I also managed to cut 1 turn off the settler build by using the extra shields the city got when growing from 3 to 4. The first city was founded 2 hexes south of Constantinople on the neck with access to the bonus food and the fish tile.

So I only had time for 3 curragh and 1 warrior before the first settler was built. This turned out to be an ok number for the layout of this map. I had seen all of my continent and explored well to the west with just these 4 units when the first settler was produced.

Research
My early research into pottery turned out to be required because India and Russia (my first contacts) would not trade it to me. I got pottery around 3000bc. I started on writing next, planning on going to Philosophy after that. I was not sure I would be able to trade for Code of Laws before I finished Philosophy, so the Republic slingshot was really more of a long-shot. :cool:

I broke another golden rule during my research of writing. When I started, even with 90% research, it appeared that I would take the max number of turns to research it. (50 turns). Instead of researching at 10% and putting the money into gold, I kept going at 90%. As I grew my number of cities, the early beakers that did not appear to be keeping up with the minimal research rate did significantly shorten my total research time. I discovered writing in 1830BC.

I made contact with the other civs quickly.
India –3100BC
Russia –2750BC
Ottoman – 2430BC
Netherlands - 2230BC
Carthage – 2190BC
Vikings -2190BC
Persia – finally in 875BC

1000BC – 5 cities
1 settler
5 workers
3 warriors
1 archer
3 spearman
2 swordsman
2 dromons

Got Phil in 1425bc and I was first – Took mapmaking to get Dromons to deal with barbs. Turns out to have been a mistake since another civ got it around the same time and it had no trade value.

Bad stuff starts to happen

The first problem was that I started to lose curraghs. I was losing 60% of the time I ended on a sea tile. On 1475BC I lost my sixth curragh to a barbarian

On 1660BC I lost a Settler and Warrior standing on the Iron resources north of the start. I ended up losing another vet swordsman and an archer before I got Dromons to do the job and take out the barbs.

India DOW on me out of the blue. This was a problem due to my very small army. I was in the middle of a big settler push and switching over to units really hurt. I was unable to colonize the north of the starting continent or the eastern ones due to this. I was able to retake the one city they took with the help of several Dromons.

I entered MA in 650BC and got 7 turn anarchy with 6 cities!!!

NPStan

Shinatoo

Aug 06, 2004, 04:17 PM

to sum it up.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!

bed_head7

Aug 06, 2004, 04:23 PM

Psychonaut777

Aug 06, 2004, 04:41 PM

I'm doing decently so far. I don't have time for an extensive write up but wow this is hard. I'm way out of my league that's for sure. =)

I settled the capital next to the cow and on the coast/river and then settled the second city next to the game (2 squares between two cities). I proceeded to settle my third city on the forest between the 3 ivory. My 4th city went on the hill /choke point. I had already met with India and explored around the coast and decided that it would be in my best interest to grab as much land from India ASAP since the rest of my island was mine for a while guarenteed. I made a ton of warriors and made a warrior wall to prevent India pushing any further east. I immediately founded 4 cities on India's side of the choke point, grabbing the horse/tobacco. These were actually strong locations and will be useful in later wars vs. India. I then proceeded to build walls in the 3 border cities and then libraries/aquaducts and I massed troops there to prevent flips.

As of entering the middle ages I have the entire island claimed and a road network with most of my core cities worked to good size production capacity. I have avoided wars at all costs and have RoP with all civs. I managed to stay on top of the tech pace the whole time and have a good size treasury. I have SoZ of course and libraries/temples/barracks/Aquaducts in most of my core and my culture is really taking off.

India is a huge threat at this point. They only want to stay peaceful with me because I give them ivory, but they are very unhappy. They are massing troops and are a constant threat even though I have much of their side of the island in my hands already. Ottomans have just about finished off the Russians so they are a galiath on their huge island by themselves.

This is going to be a rough game. =(

Here's my map a little ways into the MA. As you can see I'm trying to set up a cultural/military barrier against the Indians who are really annoying me. We are going to have to stomp them out quick, thus the stack of ancient cavalry and midieval infantry outside Dheli.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Conquest_Game.JPG

note, the tech pace in my game seems abnormally slow. I was the middle man for a very long time. No other civs really contacted each other for a few thousand years. I was able to steadily gain a tech lead and keep most of the others in the dust. This screen shot is actually like 400 yrs after entering the MA I think but for the most part it is accurate (aside from city populations).

klarius

Aug 06, 2004, 04:55 PM

I'd like to ask for some advice. I am a bit of the way into the Middle Ages, and Adrianople is still a flip risk of 1.54%. Required garrison would be 40, I have 9 right now. There is no way I can get that many more units in there, but I don't want to lose it since that is my SoZ city. I have built a Library, Marketplace, Temple and Cathedral there, the last three all to try to stop a flip. Should I continue sticking any unit in there to decrease the odds of a flip, or empty it so when it does flip, I don't lose a huge portion of my army?
Are you sure you applied the flip risk formula correctly. It seems rather strange that your own city, which should have had it's second culture expansion should share many tiles with the enemy. Or does India really have 20 times your culture, which also seems strange.

bed_head7

Aug 06, 2004, 05:02 PM

It shares lots of tiles with India because India captured my third and sevent cities in a war that started shortly after my turn log ended. If you check the attached image in my spoiler post, the city built by the settler on that hill is now Indian. And I didn't do the flip calculations, I used the calculator in Dianthus' mapstat.

danman

Aug 06, 2004, 06:07 PM

So what is your overall strategy in one sentence?

Cultural / Space Race or Conquest?

If you are an aggressor, WHOM do you want to subiugate first?

I launched many wars against India, looking to consolidate the continent before moving on to a conquest victory. I managed to take several cities during 3 or 4 wars with incredibly heavy losses. In the meantime I lost my tech lead and any military might I had. Now I am lucky enough to have a cavalry army and two knight armies, but India has infantry and will soon have tanks (not to mention a huge tech lead and thousands of gold). :( I'm also the only civ still in the middle ages. Science has gone to zero and I have made peace with all. The plan now is to try to hang on for a space race victory... though in demi I will probably be submitting a loss.

Looks like plenty of others had similar luck with india...

grs

Aug 06, 2004, 06:26 PM

OPEN

start:
worker west spots cow and 2 bg
settler founds Constantinople nw, spots an elephant
research min on writing
worker irrigates cow first for growth in 8 but 10, then roads
Constantinople builds curragh, curragh, warrior, warrior
1st curragh explores north and jumps to the northeast isles later
2nd curragh does the jump to the isle east immediately
warriors explore inland

inital contacts:
Vikings in 3150BC are up masonry and warrior code
Persians in 2950BC are up masonry and warrior code, too, but miss writing. I trade it in for their 2 techs plus all their 10 gold pieces
Dutch in 3900BC are up pottery, but miss masonry and warrior code. I trade masonry + their 35 gold for pottery.
Catharge in 2710BC are up ceremonial burial and the wheel
Indians 2470BC are up the wheel and ceremonial burial
Ottomans 2390BC are up ceremonial burial, but miss alphabet.

time of trades in 2390BC:
alphabet to Ottomans for ceremonial burial + their 36 gold.
pottery + ceremonial burial to Persia for iron working and their 50 gold.
ceremonial burial + 87 gold to Vikings for the wheel
the wheel + 18 gold to Osman for Mysticism

--> we have iron near Constantinople, no horses yet and are up at least a tech on anyone now

last contact:
Russians in 2270BC are down 3 techs

more trades:
2270BC trade mysticism for hoseback riding + 109 gold to Hannibal
1830BC buy Polytheism from the Ottomans for Iron Working + 420 gold and sell Poly to the Catharge for Mathematics + 109 gold and get 410 gold back from the Ottomans for Mathematics

lunatic run at the republic slingshot:
1750BC writing
1300BC code of laws
1100BC philosophy :crazyeye:

many things happen 1100BC:
Ghandi demands 34gold and we pay
we learn Philosophy first, 2 techs missing are currency and construction, only construction is on the market, so no free MA tech, the republic is taken as free tech; trade philosophy + 175gold for construction to the Indians, we revolt and anarchy is 4 turns

last trades:
1025BC trade philosophy to Scandinavia for 335 gold
875BC peace with Russia gives us 116gold + 26gpt + Monarchy for Republic; we learn Literature; buy an Indian worker for 105gold; research turned off
590BC peace with the Ottomans, trade code of laws, literature + 80 gold for currency and we enter the middle ages; trade our free tech engineering for Russias monotheism + 352 gold + 18gpt; research on theology started - hoping the AI will get chivalry

other noteworthy events:
1830BC Caesarea founded at the choke to India
1275 Russians demand mathematics - no - they declare
1050 Ottomans demand writing - no - they declare
975 Catharge demand philosophy - no - they declare
lost 4 curraghs - 2 on suicide runs, 2 to barbs
land barbs were a non event; only found 2 camps in the north, both attacked my spears on defensive terrain, till only 1 warrior remained and were destroyed

future plans:
India will be invaded with 15+ swordsmen, when horses and iron are connected and the SoZ is built. Goal will be to reach Dheli at least and get Pune and all cities on my side of Dhelis n/s axis. India should then be removed in a second run. I will use the many forest near my core to chop swords in 2 turns (2x10spt + 10s from chop).

the world in 590BC:

denyd

Aug 06, 2004, 06:41 PM

Theodora was could not believe her good fortune, she had never imagined someone wouldn’t show up for the trip to Alpha Centauri and then Flight Controller Dianthus called her name and told her to board the ship. She was surprised at the size of the stasis pod, the ones she had trained on were much smaller and she didn’t notice the master control panel until she had strapped herself in. “I’m in the commanders pod, that means I’m in charge” she gasped as the pod activated and she began the long slumber.

The pod thumped on the dry plains. As Theodora wiped the sleep from her eyes the realization of what had happened hit like a 20-ton tank rolling over a spearman. She was the leader of a colony on a planet where no one had ever been before. First things first she thought, let’s take an inventory of what we got and where we are.

According to the data banks we were loaded with extra scientific information and most of these people love the oceans, so then we should be on a coastline somewhere. Checking the local terrain scanners confirmed the location and hinted at livestock to the northwest. She opened the pod door and pointed northwest and away went the worker and settler.

With two canoes out searching the coastline for other tribes, Theodora made her first decision. “Since we haven’t seen anyone who might be able to tell us about pottery, let’s round up another settler group and send them to that narrow isthmus to the southwest. That will secure this half of the island for us in case we aren’t alone” she said.

Just when she began to believe her people were alone on this island, came word from the Kon that the Indian peoples were on the western end of the island. They were a very developed people with three cities and knowledge of three technologies that Theodora did not know of. The Indian leader was a man named Gandhi and he refused to part with any of the knowledge. Subsequently, the Tiki made contact the Catherine, leader of the Russian people. The two women were able to come to an agreement allowing Theodora to acquire pottery and warrior code and she quickly traded warrior code to Gandhi for Ceremonial Burial & Masonry and her people were at knowledge parity with the known world.
The news of the founding of Caesarea was tempered by the discovery of the remains of the Kon washed up on the shores. About this time a mighty Warrior, Hercules was attacked by numerous barbarians and survived to become elite among the few troops Theodora possessed.

Theodora had another mixed emotions day (must be the hormones), when the Tiki met another tribe, the Vikings and through diligent negotiations, Theodora was able to acquire Mathematics, Iron Working, Horseback Riding, Mysticism, The Wheel and all the gold in the known world. The bad news was reported from Odin, a warrior on the southeastern peninsula, who witnessed the new canoe, the Minnow being attacked and sank by pirate vessels.

As the days went by, the Tiki would contact the Persians, the Dutch and Carthage. Only the Dutch would contribute any knowledge, Map Making to Byzantium, the others though were happy to empty their treasuries for common technologies.

“That’s highway robbery, Catherine,” said Theodora “but I’ll pay the price you demand for Polytheism, I think I’ll need it” and sure enough with the discovery of Philosophy, the gift of Monarchy allowed Theodora to be crowned the first queen of the Byzantium Kingdom after five years of anarchy.

Another rousing trading session again left all the gold in the known world in Theodora’s treasury, with the knowledge of Construction as a bonus.

The acquisition of a Code of Laws was a cheap purchase, but Theodora hated to be blackmailed by Gandhi for it with no recourse. Her military was just to weak to stand up to the Indians at this point, though the project underway in Adrianople might soon change this.

As the end of her third millennium, she was proud to look out from her room at a kingdom of seven cities. Though dark clouds hung in the western sky, she looked towards the light and hoped for peace.

“But, sire this knowledge of currency is important and must be finished. We have over 1,400 gold pieces in the treasury, why do you cut off research funding when we are so close to completion.” Science Minister Moonsinger asked as the staff meeting opened.

“I’m sorry minister, but those funds will be needed elsewhere. Besides my sources report that the barbarian camp in the swamp north of Trebizond would swarm the city if news of this discovery leaked out. We also need to consider that these funds may soon be needed for defense. Those Indian Warriors milling around south of Adrianople, are bound to cause trouble someday. I have established embassies in Delhi and Moscow in the event hostilities break out, we might find an ally useful.” Theodora answered.

Prophetic it was as a trio of Indian warriors ventured onto Byzantium soil soon after the meeting. A pair of spearmen in Adrianople fought well, though one would perish the city stood when the first battle ended. Nearly half of the treasury would be sent to Moscow to enlist aid in this battle, though no Russian troops would ever be seen.

Finally a trio of Byzantium warriors, led by Hercules finally defeated the final barbarian horseman in the camp and the land was free of the threat. And in 550 BC the knowledge of Currency propelled the nation into the Middle Ages following only the Russians into that age. The bonus knowledge of Monotheism would compliment the Russian gift of Engineering once a deal could be arranged. The war with India was at a standstill, as every Indian Warrior, Archer and Swordsman who attacked the city would die before returning home.

Editors note: I’m still not sure I’ll be able to finish this, but with my SG’s done for a while, I’ll give it another week to see how it goes.

Denniz

Aug 06, 2004, 06:44 PM

[c3c] 1.22f - Open

I moved the worker west and the settler northwest next to the cow. I Settled there and moved the worker to irrigate the cow. I didn't see the game yet and I didn't fog gaze. I built Curragh, Curragh, Warrior, Warrior, Settler. I think I did better this way as I put my second city on the coast north of the game. I chopped the forest and irrigated the game.

Once I had graineries in both cities they really pumped out the settlers! By 1000bc, I had 10 Cities with a total of 20 pop plus 3 settlers and 8 workers. I also had 1 Archer, 1 Spearman and 6 Swordmen. I had lost a couple warriors and 3-4 curraghs. I used the Lux slider exclusively to manage happiness and did some micromanagement to balance food, shield and commerce. I was able to pull off a Monarchy slingshot by trading for Poly the same turn I research Philoosophy using the 'Big picture' option to switch to trading. (At least, I think I did in this game, I have done it before so I may be mixed up.) After a 3 turn Anarchy, my government was monarchy in 1475BC.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/cotm03_dsv_975bc_map.JPG

I think this is the best start I have had in any civ game I have ever played! [party]
This is very encouraging to me and I thank all the folks that have posted articles and spoilers and answered my questions. :goodjob:

By beginning of the MA in 650BC, I was up to 13 cities with 35 pop and 2 settler and 12 workers. My military was 5 spearmen, 10 Swordmen, and 1 Dromon. I had used the Dromon to put a city on the small island SE of the Dutch that had Iron and Horses. In the picture below, he had just dropped off a second settler.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/dsv_650bc_map.JPG

Research - I think I only researched Writing and Philosophy myself:

4000BC Bronze Working; Alphabet (Starting techs)
2590BC Pottery; Warrior Code
2390BC Masonry; The Wheel
2270BC Ceremonial Burial; Mysticism
2070BC Iron Working
2030BC Writing
1870BC Horseback Riding
1725BC Mathematics
1575BC Polytheism
1550BC Philosophy; Map Making; Monarchy(Free Tech)
1350BC Construction
900BC Code of Laws
670BC Literature
650BC Currency; Monotheism

Of course, I self-destructed in the MA and then reloaded so I won't be submitting. :(

I think that settling that island. (I sent a third settler there later.) Was the first symptom of my MA malaise, where I gradually fall behind in tech, military, and culture. One of the things that happenned is India slipped a city towards the north end of the continent. My fixation on that city and my realization that I had fallen behind so much led me to a really bad choice. I decided to attack India and split my forces between the north and south. Not to mention that Military Advisor said I was weak. :blush: (It was 4am at the time but still no excuse.) The result was the initial attack failed in both places. I eventually got the city to the north but I lost so many units that I couldn't hold the bottleneck cities. When I quit India had broken through and I was down to one defender per city and no offense.

I reloaded from before the attack 310AD and played it to around 700AD when India attacked me. I had done some expanding overseas and did even worse dispite having muskets.

Since then I have gone back to 1000BC and play forward again. Time I stayed on the home island and kept India to their half. In the AA, I refused to give them HBR and they DoW, but were unable to break the bottleneck. That and a second war in the MA, I started after a flip, chewed up all their extra units. And since I had concentrated on building Warriors/Swordmen, I was able go on the offense with MI in the early MA and grab 2 of the 3 westmost indian cities, get my GA, and get the last western city for peace. So, I think I may have worked out what I need to do different next time. :)

I am look forward to the next game.

Civgeek

Aug 06, 2004, 07:08 PM

COTM 03 – Byzantines (Open)
Civgeek

Ancient Times (4,000 BC – 530 BC)
QSC 7 cities, Pop 19, 16 techs, 19 units, 477 gold, 45 gpt, 25 spt.
Middle Ages 10 cities, Pop 34, 3rd to enter MA.

Pre-History:
First Demigod game so only one goal; survive as long as possible.

Opening Sequence:
Moved worker W revealing cattle and two bonus grassland tiles along the river. With forest tiles to the southwest, this looked like a good starting location (bonus food, good spt) so moved settler NW. Next turn moved worker NE to cattle tile, revealing river continues north with ivory besides the river. This would be in expanded radius of city if I settled this turn. Considered exploring further, but decided this was a pretty good location given the difficulty level and expected rapid expansion by the other civs. Constantinople founded 3950 BC. Set initial builds to curragh, warrior and settler requiring 55 shields, which was achievable by expansion to Pop 3. Worker improved plains/cattle (irrigate, road), then bonus grassland (mine, road), then plains/ivory (road, irrigate). Roaded the ivory before irrigating to coincide with second expansion to Pop 2 of Constantinople. Generated 330 shields over first 50 turns of production, which I consider very good for me (usually aim for 285 – 300 shields).

Exploration and Expansion:
First curragh went north, following coast, rounded tip of peninsula and came back south then west to explore the northern coastline of our continent. First warrior started by heading west, discovered forest/game tile, which looked like promising site for second city, then continued west and southwest following the land bridge to western part of continent. Second curragh went south and then west to explore southern coastline; third went south and then east, northeast looking for crossable stretches of ocean. First contact was with the Indians in 3000 BC. Sequence of contacts was as follows:

3000 BC India
2750 BC Russia
2470 BC The Dutch
2390 BC Ottomans
1625 BC Vikings
1125 BC Persians
1000 BC Carthage

Eventually lost all four exploring curraghs and one exploring Dromon to barbarians or treacherous waters. Barbarian galleys seemed quite tough (or lucky). Cities were founded as follows.

3950 BC Constantinople, 1 tile NW of start, beside cattle.
3050 BC Adrianople, 1 tile NW of forest/game.
2270 BC Caesarea, on hill choke point to W.
1550 BC Nicaea, on forest tile adjacent to three ivory.
1250 BC Varna, 4 NW of Nicaea on coast beside river mouth.
1100 BC Smyrna, 1 tile N of iron in hills.
1100 BC Heraclea, 4 tiles south of Constantinople on volcano peninsula.
900 BC Trebizond, 1 tile SE of horses on northern peninsula.
825 BC Chalcedon, 2 SE, 1W of Nicaea on coast (fill-in territory boundaries).
800 BC Sardica, 1 S, 2 SW of Caesarea; forward outpost against India.

City placement was pretty tight for me, but I think it worked well for maximizing resources and income; wanted to get as many river tiles and high gold tiles worked as soon as possible.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/mjf_cotm03_01.JPG

Military Endevours:
None. Fought no wars and had little trouble with barbs on land (except for one embarrassing sacking of Constantinople for 29 gold by a lone barb horseman). Barb galleys were another story however; killed 3 of our 4 curraghs and a Dromon.

Technology and Trading:
Had good success with trading, but not much luck with researching. Started out on Writing at minimum, but India developed it four turns before we did. Tried for Republic slingshot by researching Code of Laws at maximum, but India developed Philosophy 7 turns later. Disappointing, but not sure I could have beaten them to Philosophy anyway; it was 9 turns on max for me from developing Writing. They than also beat me to Code of Laws by 1 turn. India seemed to proceed at a blistering research pace directly to Republic in my game, so interesting to note the number of people who accomplished the slingshot anyway. Luckily was able to broker few good deals for techs, being “technologically advanced” a few times. Techs were gained as follows:

4000 BC
Alphabet (Start), Bronze Working (Start)
2750 BC
Pottery, Warrior Code (from Russia for Alphabet, 120 gold and 3 gpt)
Ceremonial Burial (from India for Pottery and 10 gold)
Net: -110 gold/-3 gpt for Pottery, Ceremonial Burial, Warrior Code.
2030 BC
Iron Working (from India for 95 gold and 6 gpt)
Mysticism (+40 gold) (from Ottomans for Iron Working)
Masonry, The Wheel (+20 gold) (from India for Mysticism)
Net: -35 gold/-6 gpt for Iron Working, Mysticism, Masonry and Wheel.
1725 BC
Writing (researched)
1600 BC
Horseback Riding (+95 gold) (from Vikings for Mysticism)
95 gold (from Dutch for Horseback Riding)
83 gold (from India for Horseback Riding)
Polytheism (from Ottomans for 395 gold)
Mathematics (+1 gold) (from India for Polytheism)
230 gold (from Ottomans for Mathematics)
200 gold (from Russia for Mathematics)
Map Making (from Vikings for Polytheism and 175 gold)
Net: +155 gold, Horseback Riding, Polytheism, Mathematics, Map.
1550 BC
+198 gold (from Ottomans for Map Making)
1425 BC
Philosophy (+240 gold) (from Vikings for Mathematics)
1300 BC Code of Laws (researched)
1150 BC +50 gold (from Dutch for Philosophy)
975 BC Literature (researched)
650 BC Construction (from Carthage for 520 gold)
550 BC +53 gold plus 21 gpt (from India for Construction)
530 BC Currency (researched)

Ended up researching more than I would have liked and disappointed I couldn’t get much for Code of Laws or Literature. Biggest problem was not getting Monarchy or Republic, but I just couldn’t pry these from anybody. Turn I entered the Middles Ages I offered India Construction, Currency and 500 gold for either Republic or Monarchy and was rejected harder than a sleazy door-to-door salesman hitting on women half his age in a seedy out-of-town bar ….. seriously considering going Feudal in the Middle Ages.

Wonders:
Didn’t go after any except Statue of Zeus once I determined nobody else had any ivory. Could have started earlier or done a pre-build, but really wanted to get as many settlers out ASAP. Was 2 turns away from completion as I entered MA with nobody else building so looks like I will get it? Ottomans lead with three wonders (Oracle, ToA, Hanging Gardens), Russia has two (Pyramids , Great Library) and Vikings have two (Colossus, Great Wall). Dutch got Great Lighthouse. My “mighty” neighbor Gandhi, despite kicking serious butt in the expansion race, ended up with only the lowly Mausoleum.

Overall I am doing better than I expected, but still being in Despotism is very worrying. Will change ASAP, however, looks like India is getting ready to attack us as stack of warriors is heading south from Pune. Would hate to be in anarchy if that happened. Outlook for Middle Ages; hard to say.

grs

Aug 06, 2004, 07:53 PM

predesad

Aug 06, 2004, 07:54 PM

I'm not realy good at Fog Gazing, but wish I was, I wish I could have see the game after moving worker w like others did, but i did not, settler i tile SW was surely the best spot to build, instead i went settler NW to get cows ASAP and then worker n onto cows to irrigate then road.

i decided not to pursue pottery but to try to trade for it, a mistake because my exploration strategy did not reveal anyone with pottery soon enough to my liking, i went writing 10%.

my first builds were curragh, curragh, settler, warrior, curragh, settler, curragh. my curraghs headed off around my continent, te first north, the second south. my second city was 4 squares s of capitol, not a good city spot, but i wanted some early coastal cities for commerce and this site was fone for a small pop city. my third city was on the hills at the choke point. i planned to get some settlers across the choke to settle Ghandi's lands, but he was on top of my before i could get one there, i concentrated on securing my section of the continent.

basically i contacted everyone by 1700 and i held an early tech lead and amassed 1000 gold quickly. i had a war with russia and the dutch because i refused their demands when theyu had not found me yet. russia did manage to find me and took a city, i got it back a few turns later with swords & russia agreed to peace for 20 Gold. the dutch never found me and eventualy agreed to peace. i gave in to most demands, but refused to trade ivory, which caused a second war with dutch, this time they knew where i was, but everytime a dutch galley approached, dromon bombardment convinced it to go the other way and we eventually had peace with no battles.

i also settled the island to the SE of the Dutch, although the dutch has one city in the north, this gives me 2 horses and 2 iron for trading since that island has one of both.

barbs have been a problem, i built several curraghs, but lost all but 2 to barbs, one managed to get upgraded, another is elite at 1 hp and is still exploring while i rush settlers in dromons to the islands the curragh uncovered. also, the northern and southern portions of my empire are not connected because there is still a barb presence, but a sword / med inf are taking care of the matter as we speak. i have 11 cities,3 on the island beside the dutch, plus one more i cannot found until barbs are controlled better.

i chose to build SoZ late, focusing instead on expansion, built a couple harbors and one library at choke to get culture there, otherwise it has been units (granaries of course are an exception) and will continue for sometime in that direction.

i got ROP with everyone, most had to pay 20 - 30 gold, in my experience, having an ROP seems to keep demands down because they don't want the rep hit of violating the ROP (although the Dutch did DoW during ROP) i also managed to trade for every luxury except spices, do not know how long i can continue to do that.

backing up a bit, about 7 trurns before i got writing the vikings had discovered it, so i traded with them for it then phil 100%. by the time i got philosophy i had managed to trade for polytheism and so i took monarchy as a free tech. i then researched lit myself to help use that as trade bait, since AI goes for it last. after that science went to 0%.

it took the AI forever to research the last tech (currency) i forget who was first, but i waited several turns until about 3-4 had before buying, they all seemed to want to research everything i had but had not yet traded before going to currency.

i took feudalism as free tech. i then traded with all scientific civs (btw, is it fair to set up a demi game where 3 other civs have each of our traits?) even gifted a tech or two to put them in MA, hoping they would get mono and eng. none of them got feud, they all got engineering. a few more trades and i was bringing in 100+ GPT the very same turn i entered the MA.

i do not know how much longer this good will last, i am planning to wait to research some of the techs in the upper half of the tree that I know the AI will avoid, but i will stay at min research when doing so.

now that i have SoZ, i plan to trade away all 4 of my ivory for other luxuries, this keeps 4 different civs sorta happy with me and hopefully i wont havew to worry about them and can stop buying ROP, i should actually get gold through these lux for lux trades sonce the AI is larger than I accordong to the way the AI computes the value of luxuries. I will also be looking to trade an iron and both horses, ancient cavalry will provide horse units.

i am planning to build pikes / med inf / trebs and take out india, this had not gone well for other players. i will concentrate on trebs & hope my artillery advantage tilts the scales my way.

it should also be noted i established embassies with every civ as soon as i traded for writing, in my tesat game last weekend an AI put an embassy in my capitol, which gave them my city view and lov\cation and robbed me of the chance to get a view of their capitol, a few turns later they Dow on me. I did not make the same mistake twice.

i am thinking about a prebuild for KNight's Templar, but will probabaly stay out of wonder race and go for units. i have no victory condition in mind, i would just like to take india out to claim the whole continent.

Psychonaut777

Aug 06, 2004, 08:19 PM

bed_head7

Aug 06, 2004, 08:41 PM

Where is the Great Library in your game, psychonaut? Maybe you can do a bit of late catch-up. I must say, I am impressed by the games of a lot of the other first time demigod players. You all seem to have done a much better job expanding than I did, probably meaning that you planned better and dealt with the barbs better.

ainwood

Aug 06, 2004, 08:42 PM

I can't wait to see the outcome of this. I'm playing on the easiest mode and so far the MA has gone pretty poorly. I don't even know how I'll ever defeat India let alone get anywhere in this game. The tech pace is simply out of control now and I have no hope of catching up. =(
Well, a good option in demigod is to not reseach very many techs yourself. You can set the research slider to (say) 10%, and generate a lot of gold to buy techs - buying from one and selling to another.

If you also research the techs that the AI doesn't (eg literature in my playtesting games), then this can be very valuable to sell (after you've built the Great Library, BTW) ;)

As for defeating powerful enemies in the MA and later, cannons and artillery are great! The AI doesn't use them much, and this is their weakness. :)

solenoozerec

Aug 06, 2004, 10:07 PM

Randy

Aug 07, 2004, 01:35 AM

Open class COTM03 1 of 2

I'll start by saying I play 90%+ of my games on PtW (since it came out) so I'm still in a steep learing curve for c3c. I got c3c for X-mas, played a few tiny worlds and one huge world but stopped when my FP went neg corruption (before any patches) got fed up with the bugs. So I put it away until COTM01.

COTM01 I was 169 of 185 (my first game of any mouth)
GOTM32 I was 72 of 121 (still learning some GOTM tricks like moving your first settler.
COTM02 I was 113 of 170
GOTM33 I think was my best yet.

So any help with the step up to c3c will be great help.

Also I'm not the world worst speller but I am in the top 10, so sorry for all the misspellings. I looked all over the house for the dictionary but can't find it or as my wife may say I stuck my head in a room or 2 and just gave up.

My game in the AA. (Highlights)

4000 BC: Worker went NW, Settler went SW.

3950 BC: Constantinople founded, worker starts road, studying Writing @ 10%, gold +4gp/turn.

3800 BC: Road finished, sent worker to build road on cow. We see ivory!

3750 BC: Got warrior #1, started curragh. Warrior #1 will scout to the west.

3600 BC: Started irrigating first road to cow.

3550 BC: Sending warrior home. (MP)

3500 BC: Got curragh, started spearman. Curragh heads E.

3350 BC: Fortify warrior in Constantinople. Curragh finds goody hut. This will be gone before I will get a unit to it.

3200 BC: Got spearman, fortify in Constantinople. Start settler. Worker goes to ivory to build road. Curragh finds goody hut on mountain.

3150 BC: Met Netherlands, they will not sell pottery and they have 2 cities.

3100 BC: Netherlands popped the goody hut and got barbs. That's just to bad.

3000 BC: Finished road on ivory, road to game. Found new land in the north.

2950 BC: Found out I’m the least powerful civ. Curragh can see a green boarded.

2850 BC: Got settler, settler & spearman will head to the ivory. Started spearman. Netherlands now have Warrior Code.

2800 BC: Met Persia they have Warrior Code & Masonry.

2750 BC: Founded Adrianople. This hooked up ivory!

2670 BC: Found Vikings.

2550 BC: Sold Alphabet to Persia for Warrior Code, Masonry +33gp. Netherlands bought Masonry for Ceremonial Burial & 35gp. Bought Iron Working from Persia for Ceremonial Burial & 65gp. Traded Ceremonial Burial to Vikings for Pottery. Sold Pottery to Persia for 67gp. I’m Iron Working up on the Netherlands and I have eneryones gp. Constantinople gets spearman starts settler.

2510 BC: Curragh finds new island east of Vikings. Worker finished road on game sent to build road to iron on hill. Switched production in Adrianople for spearman to archer.

2470 BC: Met Carthaginian sold Iron Working for Wheel & 32gp.

2350 BC: Adrianople builds archer starts settler. Archer will go SW to look for barbs.

2310 BC: Curragh met barb galley, I hope I can win this battle.

2270 BC: Yes!!!, My curragh was attacked and won not even 1 HP loss! Constantinople builds settler starts spearman. Settler and spearman leave for iron city. My curragh pass an other barb galley and village with 2 horse and 3 warriors.

2230 BC: Yes!!! A 2nd win with my curragh. My archer found a barb village with 2 warriors.

2190 BC: To my surprise the archer was not attacked. So he attacked the village and won losing 1 HP, now 2/3. worker finished road in woods. Worker will road 2nd BG space. The curragh reaches southern tip of Carthaginian island and sees gems. He’ll now head E. The Carthaginian now have Mysticism. They will sell it for 1gpt + 313gp or 331gp. I pass for now.

2150 BC: Curragh finds new land and Ottomans. They buy Alphabet for Mysticism + 16gp. That last decision turned out to save me big bucks! The curragh will go N around their island. My archer finishes off the barb village and finds 2 Indian warriors on a hill. Sell Masonry for 60gp to India. Founded Caesare on hill with Iron. Started swordsman. So far no other civ. has iron.

2110 BC: Indian warriors move NW off the chock point hill. My archer 1/3HP will stand guard on this hill. I’m nervous about Writing I’m 10 turns away with science set to 10%, I check every turn but it won’t help to raise it.

2030 BC: Worker will start road to chock point hill. Curragh reaches Ottoman north shore and will head E in search of the last civ. Vikings and Carthaginian have Writing. Carthage wants 210gp and Vikings wants 229gp for Writing. Bought it from Carthage. Sell Mysticism to Netherlands for 100gp and to Persia for 75gp. Studying Philophy @100%. This will be close! 16 turns.

1990 BC: Constantinople grows to size 2, Philophy in 13.

1950 BC: Barbs south of Constantinople. Constantinople switch to swordsman.

1910 BC: My curragh can see the last civ bourder. Warrior from Constantinople attack barb and wins.

1870 BC: Met Russian.

1750 BC: India gives Mathematics and 51gp for Writing.
Adrianople builds settler starts swordsman. Settler heads to chock hill. Constantinople builds swordsman starts Statue of Zeus. Caesare builds swordsman starts swordsman. Swordsman will go N.

1700 BC: Ottoman have Polytheism but not Writing & Mathematics.

1675 BC: Trade Writing & Mathematics for Polytheism & Horseback Riding.
Sold Mathematics to Ottoman for 198gp.

1650 BC: Curragh was attacked by barb galley lost 1 HP. Swordsman south of Constantinople kills barb horse.

Note: At this point I’m worried about tribute, 693gp and a three tech lead over some civs. My Science is at 100% and 0gpt. Philophy in 3.

1600 BC: Russia builds Colossus. +25gp from barb village south of Constantinople. Founded Nicaea (on chock point hill) start settler, fortified archer on hill in Nicaea.
My swordsman to the north is 8 from my closest city he will come closer to home next turn.

Note: My curragh is almost home after 1900 years.

Worries: 2 Indian warriors got behind my lines before I could guard the chock point in 2150BC.
One is on the mountain range in the north (just out of sight). I saw him amost loss a battle to a barb warrior 1 HP left. The second I don’t know.

Persia has 8 cities.
Carthage has 8 cities.
India has 11 cities.
Russia has 6 cities.
Ottoman has 8 cities.
Scandinavia has 6 cities.
Netherlands has 6 cities.

We have 4 cities and 1 worker.

No horses in my area but India has in their’s. I can’t believe there is iron under Caesare. So I’ll bet coal will not be on this island.

I didn’t scout well yet so east of Adrianople may be a land bridge to India. My curragh will know soon. I also don’t see much in the north.

Possible Goal 1: Get map making for free tech. Finish Statue of Zeus. 3 or 4 more cities, science at max, try to trade with all but India and keep up. Build swordsman and cav. from Statue of Zeus. Go after India. Also settle on Netherlands island before they can fill it up.

Possible Goal 2: Get lit. for free tech. Switch to great lib. Then do goal 1.
I could set science to min or max.

Possible Goal 3: Go for Rep. fast and expand the best I can.

(I want this island to my self).

I set science to 40%, Philophy in 1 & 11gpt.

Adrianople change to settler in 9 turns.

1575 BC: I got Philophy first! Map Making for my free tech, science back to 100%. Studying Code of Law in 19. Decided to expand first and research to Republic.

1550 BC: Curragh sees east of Adrianople, and there is a barb village there. Carthage & Ottoman both got map making.

1500 BC: Caesare builds swordsman, starts worker it can’t get larger than size 2. Swordsman heads to barb village.

1475 BC: India builds the Oracle in Delhi. Everyone is building the Pyramids.

1450 BC: Curragh arrives in Nicaea.

1425 BC: Caesare builds worker starts Dromon. Swordsman get barb village. Worker heads to Constantinople to road and mine BG.

Sell Horseback Riding to Netherlands for 100gp & Persia for 86gp.
Sell Philophy to Carthage for 147gp, Ottoman for 87gp & Vikings for 49gp. I don’t think I can monoplyize this any longer and that too much money to pass up.

Science @ 100%, 0gpt, 1218gp, & Code of Law in 12 turns.

1400 BC: Attacked by 2 barbs and won both with one swordsman promoted to vet. A now healed curragh will scout the south coast of India but it will have to out run some barbs (3 to be exact). My swordsmen will patrol for barbs.

1375 BC: Adrianople builds settler starts swordsman. Worker finishes road to Nicaea. He will go improve other cities. My curragh see a lone Indian settler next to Nicaea.

1350 BC: I’ve seen 3 Indian warriors, I hope their not going to attack.

1325 BC: India has Construction. They want Map Making & Polytheism or Polytheism + 516gp. I’ll pass.

1275 BC: Founded Varna NW of Adrianople. Building worker in 10.

1250 BC: Sold Philophy to Netherlands for 75gp. Now India wants Polytheism, Polytheism, + 630gp for Construction. I’ll still pass this is more than last offer.

1175 BC: Caesare builds Dromon.

1150 BC: Carthage has Construction. Scandinavia has Code of Law they beat me by 1 turn.
Set science to 10%. Curragh reaches west side of India. Dromon killes barb galley.
I see an Indian worker building a road on Iron.
Sold Map Making to India for 61gp.

1125 BC: Got Code of Law, set science to 100%, Studying Literature. Curragh heads home.

1100 BC: Nicaea builds settler starts temple.
Trade India Code of Law for Construction + 2gp
Sell Code of Law to Persia for 66gp, Ottoman for 51gp

1050 BC: Russian city of Moscow builds Pyramids. Indian city of Delhi builds Great Wall. Viking city of Trondheim builds The Great Lighthouse. Persian city of Persapolis builds The Mausoleum of Mausollos. Russia put a city on the small Island east our land.

1025 BC: Statue of Zeus built in Constantinople start settler.
Sell Mathematics to Netherlands for 105gp.

1000 BC: Smyrna founded.

Stats: 6 Cities. 2 Workers. 2 Warriors. 1 Archer. 3 Spearmen. 4 Swordsmen. 1 Dromon. 1 Curragh. Statue of Zeus in Constantinople. I’ll have Literature in 10 turns if I have to study it. Currency is all I need to enter the Middle Age. I don’t have ether government but nether does anyone else. 1597gp, 0gpt.
Carthage, India, & Russia are at the same tech level I’m at. It will not be long until 2 civs are in the MA and I expect a mass barb uprising to the north.

975 BC: Curragh will scout our north shore. Dromon will pick up settler in capitial to move to new location.
India has Iron.
Russia has Monarchy. They want 1045gp for it.
Ottomans has Monarchy. They want 1002gp for it.

925 BC: 1 new settler from Constantinople & 1 swordsman in Caesare both start swordsman.
Curragh finds horses in north.

900 BC: 1st Ancient Cavalry. Curragh finds barbs 6 horses.

875 BC: Curragh is attacked by 2 barb galley, the first takes it down to 1 HP. The 2nd promotes it to a vet.
Founded Heraclea 3 spaces south of Constantinople.

850 BC: Curragh is attacked again, no damage. Dromon is being chased by barbs.
India ask nice for a scout swordsman to leave, I said sorry but continued. Road to Smyrn.
I have 16 of my allowed 28 units.

825 BC: Ottomans build The Temple of Artemis.
An Indian Galley is heading to our north shore.

800 BC: Russia builds Hanging Gardens.
Set science to 70%, +9gpt, Literature in 1.
Bombed barb galley to 1 HP.

775 BC: Ottoman demand 98gp. I say ok. (I was just waiting for this to start.) (I hit ok by mistake I wanted no)
Set science to 100% going for Rep.
India lands settler and spear on hill in north, I attack with swordsman! Win promoted to vet. Attack Karachi. Win. Attack Dacca with 1st Ancient Cavalry and takes city! (I think I blew some or all my rep. I still had a swordsman in India when I attacked).

730 BC: Take Karachi.
Sell Literature to Russia for 93gp and 12gpt.
To Netherlands for 80gp.

710 BC: Vikings demand Lit. I say no! They declare WAR!

690 BC: Destroyed Indus.

670 BC: 4 swordsmen & 2 archers for India are heading to Karachi.

EDIT: I wanted to show the pics but I did it wrong.

Randy

Aug 07, 2004, 01:36 AM

2 of 2

650 BC: India will give the city of Punjab for peace. I’ll attack some first.
Sink Viking galley, start GA!
Found Trebizond.
A Viking warrior and settler are on are north shore by the horses and barb village with 7 horses. I have a swordsman next to them.
Made peace with India they gave Punjab and 7gp.

630 BC: Netherlands demand 100gp, I say no WAR!
Persia demands Lit. I say no, I don’t believe it no war! I demand 10gp, They say no, I say goodbye.
Attack and kill new Viking city of Odense. Take 1 GP.
India has 12 cities now.
We have 10 cities.

610 BC: India, Ottomans, and Russia has Republic, I’m 12 away.

590 BC: India droped an other settler and warrior on the north shore.
I’m going to let them build the city, It’s next to Trebizond and I have a settler on the other side. I will try to culture flip it and if that does not work I’ll take it after the piece treaty.

I’m worried that 2 civs will enter the MA any time and this will fill the land in my area so no mass uprising!

570 BC: Great news India did not build their city, I founded Chalcedon. Now there is no room for them.
A Viking ship is heading for Punjab, I have no units in this city yet. The Vikings will give 2 of the following cities for peace: Hareid, Aarhus (a size 2 tile island), or Birka. I only can see the 1 city. I want Aarhus but it is close to Netherlands and I’m at war so I will take the other 2. They also give me 20gp of their 32gp not bad for a war that I only kill 1 boat, 1 Warrior in that new city that I destroyed.

Now if I can end that other war, I would maybe pay that 100gp to save those new cities.

Note: Hareid may be in danger of mass uprising.

Persia has 11 cities.
Carthage has 11 cities.
India has 12 cities.
Russia has 7 cities.
Ottoman has 17 cities.
Scandinavia has 8 cities.
Netherlands has ? cities. I can see 6.

530 BC: It looks like Persia will attack Birka next turn, I think I will gift it to the ottomans. A Netherlands galley is in rang also.

510 BC: Persia is coming! The Dutch landed! I’ll gift the city.

490 BC: Persia didn’t attack Ottomans.
Set science to 30%, +45gpt. Republic in 1 turn, everyone but the Vikings have the Republic.
After Republic I’ll set science to 0% and buy Currency. It would take 12 turns to get it and I think the other civs are close.

470 BC: The Dutch will make piece if I give them 80gp. I’ll wait.

450 BC: Almost everyone has Currency.

Persia does not have it.
Carthage wants 411gp.
India does not have it.
Russia wants 452.
Ottoman wants 433.
Scandinavia does not have it.
Netherlands will do peace and currency for 434gp.

I’ll get from Cartage.

I got Monotheism as my free tech.

India gives 77gp + 4gpt for currency (India got no free tech I thought they were science) nope I checked their not. Oops.

I know the Ottomans are science so they must have gotten the same tech.

Sold currency to Persia for 74gp. They got Eng. They want Monotheism, 1708gp all I have and 6gpt for eng. I’ll pass.

Russia must have gotten Monotheism also.

Sold Monotheism to Cartage for 425gp.

Hello Middle Age, I didn’t think I would last this long.

Stats: 12 cities, 1 settler, 3 workers, 2 slave workers, 1 archer, 5 spearmen, 14 swordsmen, 1 dromon, 5 ancient cavalry, & 1 curragh. 2133gp 16gpt if science stays at 100% or 66gpt if science goes to 0%. I’ll decide tomarrow.

I’m still at war with the Netherlands but they will make peace. They want Monotheism. I’ll pass I’ve got troops on the way.

I shoot my reputation so no gpt deals for me.

5 GA turns left.

Set science to 0%.

EDIT: I had no problems with the barbs, but India lost at least 2 warriors to them,

Longasc

Aug 07, 2004, 03:10 AM

danman, how about trying this:

Try to get Artillery and Infantry. Fight with a large Stack of Doom defensively, bleed India out. I hope you have a strong core and little corruption.

Get Marines later on an bring them in position to prevent enemy SS-Victories... -> destroy their Capital if you see their SS-Parts reaching a critical number.

Even a small nation can do this, Artillery being a great equalizer. You could also play hate-monger and be friend and ally of everyone, trying to provoke wars between anyone else and lean back and smile. :)

Tone

Aug 07, 2004, 04:29 AM

And if you have end of turn switched on, would it then be possible to fortify a unit and then go back, unfortify and give new orders to that unit before having to end the turn?

Unfortunately you only get the +1 visibility after the end of your turn. BTW thanks for the tip, Dave. :goodjob:

Civgeek

Aug 07, 2004, 06:17 AM

@Civgeek: congrats on your well thought city placement :goodjob:
I have tripple checked, but we really have all cities in the same places - even the India city to the north is in the same spot. The only difference are the names, i.e. the order in which they were founded.
I noticed that as well; what are the odds? Then again, it looks like quite a few people had very similar city placements, although not exact matches. I suppose it is a case of great minds think a like while fools seldom differ. :D

chunkymonkey

Aug 07, 2004, 07:32 AM

Open Class

I have never played DemiGod before. Until a few weeks ago, I considered myself a novice Monarch player, so based on the upward trend of GOTM difficulty, I have been recently played a couple of Emperor games, which I did win, by both Space and Domination. They were tough, but they taught me how to cope with the enhanced AI build rate. I’m not sure they prepared me for this though!

Once I had explored the coastline of the Indi/Byz continent, I realized that I probably should have started the game with a different build order. Curragh-Warrior-Curragh-Warrior-Granary-Settler was nice for exploring but an extra city early on may have been useful. Lesson learnt.

I realized the Indians were beginning to fill up their allotted section of land, so I quickly raced a settler to the chokepoint. From this point on, I think I was lucky to place towns where I did. I only had one encroachment from the Vikings onto the hilly area in the Northern part of the continent. I’ll sort that out later! :devil2:

Made use of enhanced ship travel and knew all civs fairly early. Used my position to be the knowledge base of the world, and was slowly collecting a bit of cash. I just missed out on the Phil-Rep slingshot by a couple of turns – Doh! :wallbash:

Towards the end of the Ancient Ages, India just declared war on me, for no reason. I had been giving in to demands from all civs for quite some time, so I was in their good books. It was at this point I quickly realized how rubbish my army was. Quickly switch all towns to build archers (I haven’t connected up the iron yet – stupid!) and run to the chokepoint. I manage to hold off the first wave.

In another bout of stupidly, I attack an Indian galley with a Dromon and trigger a despot GA. :hmm: I haggle for Republic and after 6 turns of Anarchy (ouch!), I enter my Republic GA.

Call for peace with India so I can use my enhanced production to beef up my culture. In retrospect maybe I should have continued the war with India a little longer, I knew I could have coped (SoZ would have been ready in 6 turns), and it would have slowed them down a bit. I’m sure if I’d had an iron supply I probably would have. Oh well…

Enter Middle Ages in 510bc
9 cities, 2 granaries, 1 Barracks, Statue of Zeus, and 2 Libraries
6 workers, 8 warriors, 4 archers, 9 spears, 2 dromons
1309 gold, still roughly 5 turns of GA left

Bring on the elephants Gandhi! :hammer:

zagnut

Aug 07, 2004, 10:59 AM

OPEN CLASS:

Trading was the key to the Ancient Age in my game. One Curragh explored the entire world and met all of the other civs by 1650 BC. Since none of the other civs explored this meant that I could trade techs among the other civs. By 1650 I was the tech leader and had all of the gold in the world.

I settled one square NW of the start. I built one Warrior and then a Curragh. Sent him north and it took a while for him to get around that peninsula and finally meet the Indians. But after that I was meeting other civs every couple of turns. The Curragh never met a barb Galley until the turn after it met the last civ, the Dutch. Then 2 barb Galleys showed up and my Curragh was history.

I started researching Philosophy in 1870 at 30 turns. At that time I only had 3 cities and India had 8. I wasn’t sure I could beat them to Philosophy so went for it directly, without researching Code of Laws first. I figured it was better to get the free tech than try for the Republic slingshot and miss it. By 1830 I had reduced the research time to 14 turns at -3 gpt. When I discovered Philosophy in 1500 I took Monarchy as my free tech because it was the most expensive and would provide me with a productive economy while I researched or traded for the final AA techs.

In 1175 the Ottomans declared war on me but they were too far away to do any damage. I succeeded in founding a city on the hill at the choke point, which it appears everybody else did also. India declared war on me in 950 and lost a lot of units trying to attack along that narrow neck of land. I stationed a Droman there and bombarded them as they came. That worked well.

The barbs were a problem for me in the north, but not in the south. I read above that the barbs will only attack you if you are NW/SE or SW/NE of them. I never knew this and camped some units east and south of them and wondered why they never attacked! What was Firaxis thinking???

Anyway, the barbs were a problem in the settlement of the northern areas of the continent. I entered the Middle Ages in 800 BC and the uprising delayed the settlement of that area for many years. But it ended happily as I eventually beat the Dutch to the Horses by one turn. :)

predesad

Aug 07, 2004, 01:41 PM

2 things to remember here in regards to C3C barbs that help.

first: barbs only attack or move if a unit is SW/NE or NW/SE of it.

this is wrong, barbs only attack if you are NW / SE but you can be SW / NE and they wont attack, i actually founded a city guarded by a warrior one tile SW of a stack of 20 barb horses fortified on a mountain. but you do not have to be one tile NW / SE, if you are in the line which runs that direction they will move toward you

also, one a barb is bombarded they might move form that square, this is how i eliminate that stack of 20 barb horses on mountain, dromon bombards horse, next turn horse moves to grass, then i attack 1 HP horse with med inf, city to SW is never attacked.

grahamiam

Aug 07, 2004, 04:25 PM

this is wrong, barbs only attack if you are NW / SE but you can be SW / NE and they wont attack, i actually founded a city guarded by a warrior one tile SW of a stack of 20 barb horses fortified on a mountain. but you do not have to be one tile NW / SE, if you are in the line which runs that direction they will move toward you

also, one a barb is bombarded they might move form that square, this is how i eliminate that stack of 20 barb horses on mountain, dromon bombards horse, next turn horse moves to grass, then i attack 1 HP horse with med inf, city to SW is never attacked.
good to know! thanks :) i always thought they attacked in an "X" but now i know better :) i'll keep the bombardment trick in my back pocket when i go for those barbs to the north. thanks again!

Kuningas

Aug 07, 2004, 04:39 PM

Predator

I moved worker W and spotted game forest. Constantinople founded 3950BC one tile W of starting location inland. I built 2 warriors, one for MP and other explored. After warriors Constantinople completed Granary 3000BC. In 2230BC I MM'd Constantinople for 4 turn warrior+settler factory. Extra warrior was nice against barb warriors.

I neglected the early curragh exploration. I did it to avoid contacts, each contact reduces AI's research cost for Alphabet & Writing. Making it harder to success in the Republic slingshot.

Self researched:
3150BC Pottery (max speed)
1950BC Writing (max speed)
1500BC CoL (max speed)
1350BC Philosophy (max speed)
1350BC The Republic (FREE)
1100BC Literature (max speed)
850BC Currency (half speed)

The Republic slingshot perfectly executed. 1225BC the new goverment formed.

I researched Currency slower than I could have done it. 925BC I was one turn away, I had all the AA techs except Construction and Currency. I turned science on 0%. 850BC Russians have learned secrets of Construction. I gave 250 gold and Literature for it. I triggered the MA era screen on the IBT by finishing Currency. On the "what's the big screen" I went on F4 screen. I gifted Scientific AIs on the MA, and then accquired 3 Initial MA techs with help of monopoly tech the Republic. Then I got free MA tech which was Chivalry. Very nice to have Chivalry 850BC :D thought I'd prefer Theology or Invention more. You can read more of those tricks on DaveMcW's thread. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=90177

QSC stats
12 x City
29 x Pop
689 x Gold
18 x Tech
6 x Library
2 x Granary
1 x Harbor
1 x Settler
7+1 x Worker

I tried dense city placement. Screenshot from year 1000BC.

HighDesert

Aug 08, 2004, 12:43 AM

C3C 1.22 Open

Opening Moves. I had no doubt about the cow and so moved the settler west to get inland. The worker went nw. Then settler west again revealing the Game and 1 Ivory. Worker moves to the cow. A settler factory is assured.

I think at this point I should have stopped to assess the situation, but I had my eye on the non-BG to the NW and moved there, worker roading the cow. The 2nd and 3rd Elephants were revealed. I settled Constaninople in 3850BC and planned on a 5-7 settler factory to maximize commerce and try the Republic Slingshot.

Built Warrior, Worker, Granary, Warrior, then settlers until at least into Middle Ages.

I forgot about the 4-turn chop in Conquests; may not have needed the 2nd Worker as a result, but I don't think I have ever had too many workers.

When the Game forest chop completed, the BG underneath was revealed. Wow! Opens up the possibility of a Settler/Warrior factory. I decided not to go this route as too many units early with a Republic can cripple you with the support costs. So I stayed with the 5-7 4-turn settler factory which pumped out the first settler in 2310BC. There are 5 (at least) perfectly reasonable start locations on the map. It will be fun to see who did what with what.

Research. Pottery at max. India showed up on the doorstep 1 turn after Pottery was researched...could have used that 14 turns. Then Writing at max although it was still 50 turns at that point. This was 1920BC and I had to decide whether to go CoL and try the Free Republic route ot just do Philosophy and take CoL if successful. I took the Philos route and had to research Republic fully. I think I blew it here, the spoilers will let me know soon enough.
3050BC. Research Pottery. 14 turns
1910BC. Research Writing. 27 turns
1650BC. Research Philosophy. 8 turns. Take CoL for free
1650BC. India---give Writing for Burial+Masonry+8g
1525BC. India---give Philos for Wheel+IronWorking+29g
1500BC. India---give CoL for Math+66g
1375BC. Russia---give Math for WC+Mysticism+99g
1300BC. Russia---give Philos+15g for MapMaking
1300BC. Russia---give CoL for HBR+40g
1075BC. Ottoman---give HBR+Alphabet[!]+66g for Polytheism
975BC. Research Republic. 23 turns. revolt 4-turn Anarchy
875BC. Form Republic of Byz
800BC. Vikings---give Polytheism for Construction+93g
710BC. Research Currency. 7 turns

Exploration. I built the first Curragh in 1910BC and generally kept about 4 Curraghs searching the seas for other civs/land. By 1075BC I had met all my rivals.

QSC Stats:

10 towns
24 pop
2 settlers
8 Workers(2 foreign)
5 warriors
1 Dromon
4 Curragh
1 Granary
Missing Currency/Construction...Republic in 1
228g
310 Score (last by 1)
Contact with everyone

I left this game for RL for about a week now; hopefully will be able to get back to it. Seems like India will need to be dealt with soon.

King Of America

Aug 08, 2004, 04:28 AM

I will have plenty of time to read everyone else's spoilers.

Bad game for me (including 2 revolutions with an average length of 7.5 turns).

I held my own through the AA and then the roof caved in in the MA.

What I learned...

1. Do not let wounded enemies live long. If you make peace with a still living enemy, esp. one who attacked you first, be sure to re-arm in the 20 turn cease fire (call 'em what they are) and then attack. Given the strong advantage the AI has for building, you can't afford to sit back and wait "couple more tuns".

2. Don't start a revultion unless you have enough troops to sustain a sneak attack--an attack in the first turn of an 8-turn revolt is a mega-bummer, especially once the AI sharks smell your blood.

3. In terms of score, if you don't expect to win, hold on as long as possible--the Jason mechanism really penalizes you for an early loss (i.e., yours truly lost in 950 AD and my Jason score was less than half my Firaxis score).

bradleyfeanor

Aug 08, 2004, 09:52 AM

Open

A few tips on archipelago maps:

Explore! The more contacts you have, the more options you have for tech trading. Buy and sell, sell and buy! Its easier to keep-up in the tech race than you think, especially if you research the techs that the AI doesn't often go for, and can sell them.

Defence: Without giving too much away about the actual game, as a suggested strategy, look at active defence. For example: How can you stop the AI landing on your shores? If he can't get to you, he can't attack you! The Dromon is a very useful unit, as it has lethal sea bombard. Hunting in packs, you should be able to sink AI galleys fairly easily, and you can even hide in-port to stop the AI galleys getting to you first.

On defence: Use the terrain defensively, and this includes your cultural borders. A little trick that is quite useful is to have a city on the border with a cultural boundary of two, and road to the boundary. Stationing mobile troops in this city (especially horsemen) gives you a free-attack at anything wandering in to your territory - as mentioned above, try and beat the AI to build the statue of zeus: One free ancient cav every five turns is an excellent unit!

Hmmm. Well now. I don't know what to say. I did none of these things. That can’t be a good thing :rolleyes:

Initial moves
My warrior took the initial step west and spotted the cottony tail of a deer peeking out of the fog SW, SW. You can see it (somewhat) in the lower right corner of the blowup box below:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BF_COTM3gametile.jpg

I decided to head inland and settle W, W, NW. I would found my first city on the river, within range of both the cow and the game. The deciding factor was actually palace location: hopefully the move would give me a more central location and prevent a palace move later. I would lose the coast though, which will certainly hurt a bit on foreign contacts and research.

When I spotted the ivory, I wanted to go for a 20k, but I chickened out. I have found it difficult to secure the Colossus in many of my games at diety level, and since I had already moved my settler away from the coast, it would be very unlikely that I would get it in this one. It should be most interesting to follow DaveMcW’s 20k posts.

My build order was warrior, warrior, granary (2750bc), settler, worker, barracks, spear (because of a forest chop), settler, warrior, and then warrior/settler until 1373bc. I then did a few 2-turn warrior/worker cycles, and went back to warrior/settler.

Exploration and Expansion
I initially thought that Constantinople would be a settler factory, but when I chopped the game and noted the shield given by the tile :eek: (I didn't even know that was possible! Was this an Ainwood modification?), I realized it could make a 4-turn 5/7 warrior/settler factory (warrior built first turn, then a settler in 3 turns). The pic below shows the city on the third turn of the cycle, and the only turn that required micromanagement. The citizen working the forest tile had to be moved to the irrigated ivory, as shown by my beautifully artistic arrow. This would maintain growth on every second turn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BF_COTM3_SettlerFactory.jpg

A southern warrior met Ghandi (no trades available) in 3100bc, and the warrior then fortified at a choke location to keep Ghandi from coming into my territory. I didn't build my first curragh until 2110. Contact with the other civs was relatively late due to moving inland for my first city:
Russians, 1700bc
Ottomans, 1550
Dutch, 1475
Carthage, 1375
Vikings, 1025
Persia, 1000

Barbs were not much of an issue. Due to the vet warrior/settler factory, I had the warriors to crush huts, and the settlers to colonize the northern peninsula quickly.

Research and Trading
Initial research was pottery at max, then writing at minimum. Pottery was a mistake, as Ghandi got it the turn before me. This turned out to not be a big deal though. I thought that playing on Open level (my first time) would slow down the tech pace from Predator, but boy was I wrong!

I made my first trade in 1550bc. Osman had IW, but didn’t have Alphabet.
Alphabet, 3gpt and 18g to Osman for IW.
IW, 2gpt and 17g to Ghandi for CB and Masonry. Ghandi is up Math on everyone.

1475bc: The Dutch have writing and it is still seven turns before I get it. I decide that getting Philosophy first might still be a possibility if I trade so:
Masonry, 135g and 2gpt to Dutch for writing
Writing to India for Myst, Math and 139g
Writing to Osman for Poly and WC
Math to Dutch for TW and 235g
Writing to Russia for HR and 39g
Poly to Ghandi for 88g

That left everyone broke except me and the Russians: I had 685g and they had 193. I switched research to Philosophy at 90%. It was due in 10 turns, and I was losing 9gpt. I suspected that race for Philosophy was going to be very, very close given the frantic tech pace already.

1375bc: I met Carthage, and they already had Philosophy :(
245g to Carthage for Phil
HR to Dutch for 55g
Phil to Russia for 184g
A few civs had MM, but Phil alone wouldn’t get it for me and I didn’t feel it was necessary to pay for it. I expected to meet a few more civs soon to bring the price down, because Carthage was doing too well technologically: they had to have a trading partner. I set research on Lit at 90% due in 15 turns, losing 9gpt.

1250bc
Phil and 192g to India for MM and 2 workers.

Over the next several turns, I watched Carthage get CoL and Construction. I had three curraghs desperately searching for their trading partner(s), but I couldn’t find them. I was the first to get Lit in 1050, but Carthage’s monopoly prices on CoL and Construction were too high. Then the next turn I found the Vikings, and the turn after (1000bc), the Persians. All three had CoL and Const, and the Vikings also had Currency.

1000bc
Myst and Phil to Dutch for CoL and 15g.
Poly to Dutch for 39g.
CoL to Ghandi for 184g (all).
CoL to Ottomans for 64g (all)
Literature, 5gpt and 107g to Persians for Const
Lit to Carthage for 178g
Lit to the Vikings for 118g

Currency at the monopoly price was 770g. It would have been nice to be in the Middle Ages at 1000bc, but that was too expensive.

My stats at the end of the QSC:
8 cities
25 pop
1 settler
9 workers
17 warriors (nearly all veterans)
1 spear
3 curragh
943g
16gpt
All techs except Currency and the two governments
Republic due in 50 at 10% science
3 barracks
2 granaries
Score: Last place with 300. The Indians are at 702.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/BF_COTM3_1000bc.jpg

And then we come to the turn 975bc: a turn that included an endless stream of profanity and a monitor very nearly cast out of the window. It took me about 45 minutes to play the turn. The short version is that I had Feudalism, Monotheism, Engineering and over 1250g in my treasury.

Then the COMPUTER CRASHED. :aargh:

And guess what? When I reloaded, I did the exact same thing. Did everything happen the same thanks to the RNG? Oh no, of course not. None of us got the same techs, and the end result was not nearly as good. And it took me another 30 minutes to play the turn. :cry:

Eventually I recovered my wits. The second version (aka: the crappy version) of the turn’s trading went like this:
The Russians and Ottomans have monarchy. I establish an embassy with Russia. I trade Russia Construction and Lit for Monarchy, an RoP and 25g. I establish an Embassy with the Vikings. Monarchy enables me to get Currency from the Vikings, plus 3g (all) and an RoP. I get Engineering for my free tech. I establish an Embassy with Persia. I give Persia Currency for 116g and an RoP. They get Feudalism and will not trade. I give the Ottomans Currency and Construction. They get Engineering also. Crap. I gift Currency to the Russians. They get Feudalism. I trade Persia Engineering for Feudalism. I trade Carthage Monarchy for 135g. Start Invention at 10%.

Plans
Thanks mostly to my 4-turn warrior/settler factory, I had 14 vet warriors, 2 vet spears and 1 cat ready for upgrade, so I needed to attack India and get in my GA asap. In addition, given the rapid tech pace, I decided to try for a spaceship victory. That meant at some point I needed to be in a Republic, but that was the only AA tech that was not available. Therefore, I decided to try something new (for me): Feudalism. I would have to go through a second revolution at some point, but I felt it would be interesting to try something new.

In order to have a good finish date, I will need to take most of India’s cities quickly, but I am not sure that will be possible. They are quite large and strong. If I can start my GA quickly, then I will alternate my cities between building military and markets/libraries throughout the conflict. I should have started the SoZ early (like Ainwood said), as it would be a big help right about now.

Longasc

Aug 08, 2004, 10:05 AM

I like your city placement, but Nicaea should be at the river.

I would also have only moved 1 tile or settled at the spot with Constantinople where right now Varna is. I however played Conquests class, so I really had no need for a settler factory, your idea to move inland was probably a very smart move for the open class!

I would have placed Adrianople also one tile farther south, on the HILL - giving it a defensive boost, for the case of the feared Indian aggression, even if I consider them to be the most peaceful civ (AGG Rating 1 of 5...experience of a peaceful India in all my other games so far)

Megalou

Aug 08, 2004, 12:54 PM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif[ptw]
He-he. I ended the ancient age with 3010 gold in my pocket. I only lost one spearman to barbs and did not get an uprising. I smashed the one barb camp I had on the continent, and then made sure there was no fog anywhere on the continent when the new age came. 2 dromons on barb duty were useful to bombard barb ships and land units and then hide in cities.

I did both Writing and Republic in 50 turns, although I ended up buying Writing with 9 turns left, and so did not enter MA until 500 BC. Carthage had writing when I found them, so I chickened out and took Code of Laws as the free tech. I sold philosophy to two isolated civs but kept Code of Laws for myself. A monopoly on Republic put me in a good position to enter MA.

Chopping the game revealed a bonus grassland underneath. I don't think I've ever seen a bonus grassland with game before. Setting up a 4-turn settler factory proved very easy after that. The one luxury was enough since it ran from size 3 to 5. But I did build one settler before the granary. I ended up with 12 towns at the end of the QSC, along with som military poilce. The worker number was adequate until I started to road towards the horses with nine of them. The remaining ones were too few and I worked some really bleak tiles for a while.

India started very agressively, declaring war with their exploring warrior that had walked past the choke point. Luckily, I had one warrior for each of my 2 cities, but there was a 30% risk of disaster. I then discovered the hill at the chokepoint and decided to send a spearman there with the hope of getting him up to elite. But the Indian army of warriors beat me to it and I sued for peace the same turn I traded Writing from Carthage, and Gandhi went back to polite. Hopefully he will stay that way until I have formed a reasonable army. Meanwhile, I plan to launch a skirmish with the Netherlands and try to get the Indians to join in. I don't want to fight Indian pikemen and I definitely don't want to fight Swiss mercenaries, so their science must be slowed down. A few ancient cavalry should be able to keep the Dutch at bay.

Here's Theodora's realm at 500 BC:

bed_head7

Aug 08, 2004, 02:38 PM

Maybe the food bonus/bonus grassland is a GOTM thing. I don't remember ever seeing one in a regular game, but there was a wheat/bonus grassland somewhere in GOTM33.

AlanH

Aug 08, 2004, 03:14 PM

Maybe the food bonus/bonus grassland is a GOTM thing. I don't remember ever seeing one in a regular game, but there was a wheat/bonus grassland somewhere in GOTM33.
I don't think the random map generator is allowed to create one. But ainwood and his map editor are all-powerful :ninja:

MiniMe

Aug 08, 2004, 04:16 PM

Open class

Settled next to the cow, I was not experienced enough to see the game. Tech trading went allright. I was looking in disbelief when I found out I missed out on the writing-philosophy combo. Ottomans got it, and took mapmaking. Might not be so bad after all since it delayed entry into MA.

At year 1000 BC I have:

7 cities
1 settler
7 workers
8 warriors
4 spearmen
1 dromon

Contact with all Civs.

Missing literature, monarchy, republic and currency.

Moving into MA a few turns later. Got Feudalism, and traded instantly with Ottomans for Engineering. This means Trebuchets and Pikemen and Medieval Infantry to supplement my Ancient Cavalry. Pulling a 6 turn anarchy period before switching to Monarchy.

Strategy is of course to kick indian butt, but may prove difficult...

Hmmm... Have a picture to include, but couldnt find out how to do it. I will look for it later.

ainwood

Aug 08, 2004, 04:30 PM

I don't think the random map generator is allowed to create one. But ainwood and his map editor are all-powerful :ninja:

:mischief:

See? I'm nice after all! :lol:

Mauer

Aug 08, 2004, 06:52 PM

See? I'm nice after all! :lol:
Who else here, thinks it was a slip of the mouse? :lol:

BTW, don't tell Detlef Richter I had to replay this game! He thinks I am DemiGod!

dmanakho

Aug 08, 2004, 07:21 PM

:mischief:

See? I'm nice after all! :lol:

I will return to this comment when we discuss our 3rd spoiler. :rolleyes:

jazz_man

Aug 09, 2004, 03:48 AM

hi!

my ancient age was stressful, felt hopelessly behind throughout! suppose i learnt something from the game though. i'll share my most amusing moments:

* built earlier granaries than i normally do. tried to micromanage
woodchoppers so that logs were not delivered when there's only a shield
left on a warrior - think the program discards your precious shields if there's
an overflow!

* discovered that i could buy science for lots more than i can afford and
count on getting it back & more when i sell it on to the others! think the
biggest risk i took would have crippled me with 20-21gpt. i now check the
foreign advisor every turn and buy for outragous price if there is a new
tech.

* a town on that land-brigde-hill to India when 8-9 indian
middle age infantry give you a fright was good fun! I had 5-6 dromons
warming them up before they came in range for my swordsmen

* thought i'd be able to get a peace bargin if i took an indian town in the war,
chose to invade the little island of the coast since they were way to
strong beyond the choke point. this proved a good idea, no
retaliations! my dromons were rulers of the sea. less fun was that it
culture flipped a few decades after the peace =(

* built lots of harbors, have started to really like this improvement since it
gives you extra food without having to work lots of tiles, and of course
even better variants of my new fav unit - the dromon!

post a picture of my land 1000bc though i reached the spoiler criteria 290bc.

cheers,
john

flexo

Aug 09, 2004, 04:22 AM

OK I'm such a chicken, previous gotms at this kind of level have all ended in quite imbarrasing conqest losses early on (still have nightmares about the one where persia so crushed me). So what this mean is that I downloaded the conquest saves.

With two settlers and two workers I did feel a bit more confident, I moved around for three or was it four turns before settling (one city by the ivory and one further down south).

I knew now that atleast I would get to build one wonder. After a while I noticed I shared a land with india, and they breed like bunnies. I put up a choke point city so if they wanted to come to my side of the island they would have to take the boat (they never did).

Realising that it was india and me stuck on an island I knew I would have to take them out sooner rather then later or there wouldn't be any civ for me, for some deluded reason I seemed to think that hey no ivory no special unit for india (misstake! but thankfully it never got that far).

I cranked out my towns and settled my half, and a few turns before constructing the Temple of Zeus India declared war on me. Thankfully my chokepoint in Varna (right next to the little hill) had a wall, barrack and defence a plenty. Gandi sent wave after wave of swordmen that got cut down, chopped up and left to die.

This was with india would last for what felt like a thousand years or so. I just held back and let him come to me until I had a stack of ancient cavalry, I also changed era and stacked up on medieval infantry (for the next era) and charged into his land.

I'm not sure I could have done this without the extra starting settler conquest granted me. I sailed around a bit in my boat in the beginning making contacts and money, at some time I had close to 1000 gold but nothing to buy, I think I only found one single worker to buy durring the whole QSC (and I looked pretty much every darn turn).

At the end of the QSC things looked pretty good, but then the computer had not all met eachother yet and started to give eachother techs.

I also noted the barbarians where acting strange, they just pretty much sat there in there village building the barbarian stack of dooooooooom but never attacked (didn't eliminate the volcano stack until the end of the medieval era or was it the start of the industrial one).

Roland Ehnström

Aug 09, 2004, 05:02 AM

I didn't remove the last of the Barbarians until I had Infantry. They didn't do any harm, so I just let the 30+ stacks of Horsemen sit there for a few thousend years. :lol:
-- Roland

socralynnek

Aug 09, 2004, 05:57 AM

Conquest Class:

My Ancient Age was well, but it might have something to do that I first tried an Open Class game but it was hopeless so I decided to get a new start with Conquest class game.

So, I also settled to that hill in the small land stripe between me and india and they than decided to declare war on me. I got an MGL two turns later and ttok my army to go and pillage their iron ressources. So they couldn't build swordsman but I could... By the end of the Ancient Age (I was first in Middle Ages getting Feudalism as a free tech), almost all India was conquered.
I got contacts with 3 curraghs till 800BC.
But that war with india (a few turns in the Middle Ages I conquered whole India) had some drawbacks, I didn't have the time to change governments so after that I decided to wait for democracy and it was at the beginning of the Middle Ages when I finally build the SoZ and three rival cities were on my island. So, up to the middle of the middle ages, it went very well...but then...

Ambiorix

Aug 09, 2004, 06:20 AM

Open

summary first :
I reached the MA in 1000BC, with :
- 7 cities, 14 pop.
- 2 settlers, 2 workers, 4 warriors, 3 archers, 2 spearman, 1 dromon, 1 curragh
- 2 granaries
- all AA-techs except literature, plus feudalism and engineering
- contacts with all civs, plus embassies (except Persia due to war)
- 1048g.

The details :
I went NW with the worker, saw the cow, and decided to move the settler NW too. It's already been discussed in the pre-game thread, but when you see the cow and do some calculations, you quickly see that there is absolutely no gain by settling directly. That's a rather new phenomenon, since in previous COTM's and GOTM's you could always make a case for either moving or settling.

First worker actions were :
- irrigate and road the cow
- connect the ivory
- mine and road the bonus grassland next to the river
- cut forest, irrigate and road the deer-tile
I think that's about the optimal sequence for that first worker. Anyone agree or disagree ?

Contact with India in 2950BC (turn 22), Holland in 2850BC (turn 24), Russia in 2800BC (turn 25), Ottomans in 2750BC (turn 26), Persia in 2630BC (turn 29), Vikings in 2510BC (turn 32) and Carthago in 2430BC (turn 34).

I started researching minimum on writing, but ended up buying it in 1910BC from Persia in return for other techs I traded for. Persia was second after the Vikings to discover writing before me. At that time I had no hope to get a republic slingshot, and gradually started to trade writing away for other techs or cash. I even had to give it to India to avoid war. However, it seemed like the AI had absolutely no interest in researching Philosophy - I'm suspecting the game is modded to let the AI consider it as a very low priority.
In any case, after I got writing, I went full-out (70% I think) on Code of Laws, getting it after 25 turns (1200BC, turn 73), and then Philosophy (90%, -2gpt) which I got in 1000BC (just!), resulting in Republic as free tech. In the same turn I popped a hut that gave me Currency, sending me into the MA (feudalism for free). Since I wasn't planning on playing beyond the AA, I got a little bold and decided to gift techs away to bring the other scientific civ's also into the MA and hope they got a different free tech. That worked only with Persia : they got engineering, and I traded for it.

I'm expecting the top players to do a lot better, since I got a huge setback in 2390BC (turn 35), when an out-of-the-blue barb horseman destroyed my second settler and went on to destroy a well-underway granary.

Ainwood, what's the use of setting the barb level that high ? I can accept it as a gameplay-factor, but the increased importance of the RNG makes comparative gameplay more difficult. I think we had this whole discussion back in Cracker's days, and that the conclusion was that a high barb level hinders comparison of different games.

Oh well, the bad luck then was more than made up for by popping that hut in 1000BC, but still...

Attached is my QSC-log. You may not be interested in the details of the curragh-travels, but it also contains the details on all tech-trades I did.
Enjoy !

flexo

Aug 09, 2004, 06:48 AM

Conquest Class:
So, I also settled to that hill in the small land stripe between me and india and they than decided to declare war on me. I got an MGL two turns later and ttok my army to go and pillage their iron ressources. So they couldn't build swordsman but I could...

Your India only had one Iron? Mine had two. After I had captured Delhi I raced to disconnect the iron, thinking I was safe but they still the swordmen came out ... Found out they had a second source in the other mountain chain (at that time covered in darkness).

For all my wars with india (and the rest of the game) I didn't score a single great leader. Not one, I had my elite stack but NOTHIN'.

bradleyfeanor

Aug 09, 2004, 06:52 AM

I like your city placement, but Nicaea should be at the river.)

You are right. As I move through the middle ages looking at that one wasted marsh on my map, it is most annoying!

I would have placed Adrianople also one tile farther south, on the HILL - giving it a defensive boost, for the case of the feared Indian aggression, even if I consider them to be the most peaceful civ (AGG Rating 1 of 5...experience of a peaceful India in all my other games so far)

My settler was actually heading to that hill, but I hit b on accident. Since the spot wasn't that bad though, I didn't worry about it. I knew I had more than enough forces to handle Ghandi should he decide to get uppity.

Ronald

Aug 09, 2004, 07:20 AM

Having severe time constraintys this month, I am trying an OCC. I have neverdone it on demigod, my best try is on emperor (it was season 2 or 3 game of the tournament).

Archipelago is a nice setting for OCC, seafaring and scientific are great too, so if there is a chance, it is probably the best shot.

The anciemt times went quite well. I sent 3 ships to make contact with all civs and traded as much as possible.
My research path was writing at min., Col at max. Philosophy at max. Free tech Republic. I was not sure this will work, and were considering going writing , philosophy and literature as free tech (having the great library in mind), but decided not to. The statue of Zeus gave me free units, so I could concentrate on building infrastructure and getting a decent military force, so I had very little AI demands.
The only wonder I built in the ancient time was collosus for improved research.
Persia landed an archer on my little empire and declared war. I formed alliances with India (started to settle on my continent) and some others. I sent I dromon to Persia wanting to start my GA in early middle ages.
At the end of the ancient age I was with the tech leaders and saved more than 1000g.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Ronald_cotm3_1.jpg

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Ronald_cotm3_2.jpg

So far I am on track, but the more difficult times are coming.

denyd

Aug 09, 2004, 10:43 AM

I learned a couple of things in this game:

1. Demi-God on Conquests is tougher that Diety on PTW because of the increased minimum research time makes that difficult to use after the early game and the increased upgrade charges make building cheaper units and upgrading is too expensive.

2. Dromons rank right there with the F-15, Man-O-War and Carrack as the worst UU in the game. Sure they are a terror against another ships, however when swarmed by 4-5 barbarian galleys, they sink as easily as other galleys and their bombard ability against land targets is streaky in it's
effectiveness and seems to fail when you need it most.

3. Having the Indians as a neighbor is a blessing and a curse. The blessing is they start out passive in trading, willing to make even swaps. The curse is in the early Middle Ages when at war with them, does not prevent them from building their most potent attacker, the War Elephant.

I made it to about 250 AD, before I decided to give it up (something I rarely do). I've been able to fight India to a standstill for the last 500 years, but I'm now falling so far behind in technology, that it's just a matter of time before the game is out of hand. When I reached the first spoiler end, I was the second to reach the middle ages, and shortly thereafter through some trading had all the first level techs. 25 turns later and I haven't added a tech and I'm behind everyone by 3 techs and have no hope of ever catching up. With 3 AI bordering on huge and the others using their purchase premium (and demanding catchup techs from me), all of my opponents are far ahead of me. I just saw my first musket and cavalry is not far behind. I'm able to finally get Theology for peace with India, but find both the newly available techs already known.

Mistakes made:

1. Trading away 600g to Russia for an alliance when India first attacked. I probably could have weathered the initial Indian attacks and got peace and still had the extra cash. Looking back that would have only delayed the inevitable.

2. Thinking I would be able to research a minimum on Theology and get it, though the fastest I could have afforded was 41 turns at 50%. I needed 20% for happiness and 30% for troop support.

3. Not just taking the weekend off and skipping this game altogether.

I'll see everybody on GOTM 34 and wait for a lower level COTM before trying again.

socralynnek

Aug 09, 2004, 12:00 PM

Your India only had one Iron? Mine had two. After I had captured Delhi I raced to disconnect the iron, thinking I was safe but they still the swordmen came out ... Found out they had a second source in the other mountain chain (at that time covered in darkness).

For all my wars with india (and the rest of the game) I didn't score a single great leader. Not one, I had my elite stack but NOTHIN'.

I wrote "ressources". Yes it was two (which could be traded later on...). But the second was just connected to one city (but I pillaged it anyway)

I even got a second leader by the end of the Ancient Age...it was luck...

Shinatoo

Aug 09, 2004, 12:47 PM

One thing I've learned from this game is that if you keep a log you will play much better. I'm not posting mine because it has nothing profound. However, I've never thought I had a chance at this level, and so far, not so bad.

bradleyfeanor

Aug 09, 2004, 01:13 PM

...I decided to give it up

But, but...I was really looking forward to how you would expound Mursilis' sex change!

Erudine

Aug 09, 2004, 03:01 PM

Open Class -

My early game went quite well considering it's the second time i'll ever win on Demi-God level. It is a really nice start position (the cow, the ivory, and having only Indian neighbors!). I didn't keep notes, but I settled in the start location, started trading early, and had trouble with the barbarians. I ended up devoting a lot of my production strength to warriors to try and escort my workers and settlers, and clear out barb camps. I was happy to build the SoZ at a slow'ish pace when I realized no one else had ivory.

I managed to hit philosophy first and could either take Code of Laws or Monarchy for free, so I took monarchy and switched governments. I'd later pick up republic during my war with India and during my golden-age, so I wasn't able to switch to republic for quite a while. This could have been a mistake. What do other players think?

India declared war on me as I had about 10 cities and only 2 or 3 ancient cavalry. I was gearing up to attack them, having switched all my crappy towns to catapult production. I didn't use Dromons much, although I've loved them in other games, but their bombard against land units came in handy blunting the first few waves of Indian troops coming accross the land bridge to the SW. I delayed hooking up iron until I had about 15 warriors ready to upgrade to Medieval Infantry. I knew I'd be better off defeating india before anyone researched Chivalry, so most of the war happened in the AA. I couldn't really take any of their cities until I got an Army loaded with Ancient Cavalry, which is just so much better than anything else in the ancient age it's hard to believe. Their culture was way too high (infact they were the global super-power in size and culture) so I had to raze their cities and rebuild with my own settlers. I even razed the Pyramids in Dehli, which might have been a mistake, but I figured I couldn't divert much of my army to waiting outside Dehli for it to flip and then retaking it... I had my hands full conquering what I could without worrying about cities flipping behind me. What do other players think about this decision?

Thats all for the AA... more later!

Abegweit

Aug 09, 2004, 03:01 PM

Predator class

Like most people, I started by moving the worker west and then moved the settler northwest once the cow was confirmed. I am not good enough at fog-gazing to see the deer (is it even possible?) so I naturally moved the settler up to get by the cow on the coast.

Test games made it appear that the Republic slingshot would be possible, even at this level, but it would have to be a focussed goal. That means flat-out research on Writing, Code of Laws and Philosophy right from the start. I started on 100% research and kept it at the maximum possible until the very end. In fact, I kept research on max throughout the entire Ancient Era.

I started by building two curraghs for sea exploration and was in the process of building a warrior to explore the land when suddenly the city boundaries expanded and a deer popped out of the fog. Can you say settler factory? I switched immediately to a settler build, with the intention of setting up shop two squares to the south-west. Adrianople was founded in 3100BC and both cities started on barracks, as pre-builds for granaries.

In 2950 BC, I met the Indians and the Dutch and they both knew Pottery, so it would be possible to trade. I waited a little in the hopes of meeting someone else to bring the price down. Just as Constantinople was about to build its barracks, I spotted two borders and so I slowed down its growth in order to wait until I met these people. Hey! It just occurred to me that I should have switched to the Colossus. Du-oh! Anyway, next round was a great trading session.

Alphabet to Cathy for Masonry + WC + 3g. Masonry to Dutch for Pots, CB + 10g. Masonry + WC to Indians for TW + 35g. TW + Pots + CB to Persians for IW + 35g. At this point, I was up at least one tech on everyone and had 93g, which was all the money in the world. I then switched both cities to granaries.

In 2310 BC, the factory produced a worker. Thereafter, it was settlers all the way. That was also the year I learned Writing and continued on with my gambit. Code of Laws followed in 1625 BC. In 1475 BC, I cranked the science rate up to 100%, adding scientists in three cities and…. slingshot!

That was my second trading year. After it was over, I was at least 4 techs up on everyone and had around 800 gold pieces in the pot. I drew a decent 4-turn anarchy and to top off all the fun, the Indians finished the Pyramids in Delphi! Yumm!

By the time Byzantine Republic was established, phoney wars started with the Vikings and Persians, giving us a bit of war happiness. Flat out research continued on Literature and Currency. At the end of the QSC, I was one turn away from learning Currency and entering the Middle Ages with all the AE techs except Monarchy. Rather frustrating to miss out on two techs by one turn. I probably could have done it if I had tried hard enough. I technically am not eligible for this thread, as I have not pressed the <enter the Middle Ages> key yet. But I figure this is close enough.

End of QSC/AE stats:

11 cities, 11 happy, 2 content and 12 unhappy citizens, 487 g, 310 Firaxis score
1 settler, 10 workers, 1 slave, 4 warriors, 2 spearmen, a dromon and a curragh
All AE techs except Monarchy and Currency.
2 Granaries, 1 Barracks, 3 Libraries
Currency and the ME due next round, Statue of Zeus in 7

The Iron is hooked up; the horses have been captured and road workers are well on the way out to them. There are two more city sites planned on my home land. Next step is to take on the Indians with horsemen, ancient cavalry and dromons before they get better defenders.

Roland Ehnström

Aug 09, 2004, 03:13 PM

Well played Abegweit! :hatsoff:

Did you write a full turn-log? If so I'd love to read it. :coffee:

-- Roland

Abegweit

Aug 09, 2004, 04:01 PM

Thank you for the compliment! I'm not sure how readable this is for people who don't know my shorthand, but here (www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/AbegweitCOTM3.zip) it is.

Incidently, here is an amusing example of the potency of Conquest barbs. I popped a barb camp with 2 horse and a warrior when I founded Smyrna. They have been sitting on the doorstep for 450 years :lol:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/conquestbarbs.JPG
When I get a few, I'll send some Dromons to play games with their heads. :hammer:

bradleyfeanor

Aug 09, 2004, 04:57 PM

I even razed the Pyramids in Dehli, which might have been a mistake, but I figured I couldn't divert much of my army to waiting outside Dehli

Unless late in the game, I like to capture the pyramids at all costs due to their impact on growth and score. If I know the city is going to flip, then I will disconect it from the road network if necessary. That way, all you have to kill is a spearman (before industrial age), and 1 or 2 military units will be sufficient to recapture it over and over.

Erudine

Aug 09, 2004, 05:15 PM

If I know the city is going to flip, then I will disconect it from the road network if necessary. That way, all you have to kill is a spearman (before industrial age), and 1 or 2 military units will be sufficient to recapture it over and over.

Thats a good idea! thanks!

solenoozerec

Aug 09, 2004, 11:31 PM

I just submitted my defeat. The funniest thing is that after I lost my last city, I managed to build two new cities. I named them Undead and Undead2. Undead2 flipped soon after, though to a strange civ. But Undead survived for a while.
It is not that easy to loose as it seems :-}

SirPleb

Aug 10, 2004, 12:23 AM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif (predator)

Opening Moves

I started with the popular "worker west, settler NW and settle, worker N and irrigate" sequence.

Constantinople first built two curraghs. The first explored north and then west. The second went south and then east.

Soon after building the second curragh my borders expanded and I saw the forest game. I built a settler next and he founded Adrianople on the coast NW of the game.

Next my two towns built a warrior, a spearman (I built this instead of a warrior to avoid wasting the shields from chopping the game forest), and a worker. I irrigated the game as soon as possible to provide Adrianople with more food.

In 2800BC I traded for Pottery and switched Constantinople to build a granary. Adrianople built two more workers then also built a granary. My workers chopped forests to speed up the granaries. Constantinople finished its granary in 2230 and Adrianople finished in 2030. After building granaries both towns started producing settlers.

I didn't connect ivory early in the above sequence - my first priorities were irrigating the cattle and game. I got the ivory connected in 2630BC.

Contacts

I met India in 3100BC, Netherlands in 2900, Russia and Scandinavia in 2800, Carthage in 2750, Ottomans in 2590, and Persia in 1650.

Minimap at 1650BC showing coasts my two curraghs had explored by then:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sirplebc03-1a.jpg

Research

I researched at the maximum pace I could, starting with Writing and succeeding in a Republic slingshot at 1400BC.

Science details:
2800, Trade for Masonry, Warrior Code, Pottery, Ceremonial Burial
2510, Trade for The Wheel and Mysticism
2350, Trade for Iron Working
2230, Learn Writing
1870, Trade for Horseback Riding
1550, Learn Code Of Laws
1500, Trade for Iron Working, Mathematics, Map Making
1400, Learn Philosophy and Republic
1225, Trade for Polytheism
1175, Trade for Construction
1150, Learn Literature
975, Learn Currency

I switched to Republic immediately upon learning it. I got a six turn revolution which seemed good enough that I didn't gamble on a second roll.

Expansion in Ancient Times

After building the first two towns and pausing for them to build granaries, my expansion was fairly straightforward. I concentrated on growth, claiming resources, and getting a bit of culture so I'd be able to capture enemy cities later instead of razing them.

There weren't any food bonuses in the home region except the cattle, the game, and some fish. After a while I felt that I'd want a bit faster population growth to support worker production so I built one more granary in my centrally located town Caesarea.

My empire at the beginning of the Middle Ages in 975BC:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/sirplebc03-1b.jpg

Barbarians

As already discussed in this thread, Conquests barbarians are far too predictable. Unless a camp springs up in an unlucky spot on a NW/SE diagonal to a town they can be dealt with at leisure, e.g. by attacking them from a safe direction with archers.

I had one awkward camp which blocked my northward expansion through the central mountains until I dealt with it. A couple of spearman and an archer handled the seven barbarians there. I had a couple of other camps which weren't a problem and had them all cleaned out by the end of Ancient Times.

Warfare

I'm planning to go for domination (or perhaps conquest) in this game. But Ancient Times didn't seem a good time to pick any fights.

Defensive wars were another matter! In 1550BC India tried to extort a tech from me. Usually I give in to such demands. This game was different. I controlled the chokepoint connecting us to India and could easily defend it with spearmen fortified on hills in a town with walls. No one had Map Making yet so I wouldn't be visited by sea. Any war declared on me would mean happiness now, and happiness in future when I declared war on that Civ. Reverse war weariness seemed especially desirable because we had only one luxury - happiness was definitely going to be a problem. And a war with India now would mean she'd waste effort sending units to (hopefully) just die against my defenses, making her easier to attack later.

So I refused India's demand. As I hoped she declared war. Subsequently Carthage and Russia also made demands, I also refused those, and I've ended up at war with those three Civs till the end of Ancient Times. India has sent many troops to attack the chokepoint without causing much damage. I haven't seen any action from Carthage nor Russia yet.

I've made peace with Russia during the entry to the Middle Ages to take advantage of her scientific trait.

I'll probably stay at war with India until I have the strength to mount an offensive against her.

I'll stay at war with Carthage until I see her ships approaching my shores. When that happens I'll negotiate peace.

I haven't built any Dromons yet to protect myself from water based attacks. I will build some of course, and I expect to use them to trigger a Golden Age in the not distant future. But I don't intend to build a strong navy. Dromons seem like fun but not terribly powerful. I'll build a lot of them only if it seems necessary to fend off invaders.

QSC Status and Log

At 1000BC I had:
10 towns
9 workers, 2 warriors, 1 archer, 4 spearmen, 2 curraghs
3 granaries, 3 libraries, 1 harbor, 1 walls
all ancient tech but Currency and Monarchy
106g in treasury

You can click here (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/SirPlebCotm03Qsc.zip) for a copy of my QSC timeline.

Something interesting about the QSC timeline:
I felt that my opening sequence in this game worked out well, and I see in this thread that many people had trouble with this map. So I thought my QSC log might be of interest this month and I decided to play the start of it to correct any errors. The strange thing is that it turned out to be completely replayable until at least 1400BC - that's the date I got Republic and I stopped checking it there. The last time I tried to recreate my play sequence from a QSC timeline, many moons ago, it didn't work well. As soon as other Civs were met the RNG results depended on too many variables which aren't included in my logs. (E.g. how many times each rival is contacted via the F4 screen.) It seems that sometime between then and now Firaxis has changed the game so that "trivial" events using the RNG don't affect major events. I would guess that this change was made to improve multi-player. Anyway, the reason doesn't matter, the result is good news - it seems that an accurate timeline can now be replayed to get exactly the same results as the original game in all important regards. Nice!

grs

Aug 10, 2004, 02:47 AM

It is really astonishing how similar the settlements are in this game. In Sir Plebs I see another set of 95% similar towns again.

bradleyfeanor

Aug 10, 2004, 06:44 AM

The last time I tried to recreate my play sequence from a QSC timeline, many moons ago, it didn't work well. As soon as other Civs were met the RNG results depended on too many variables which aren't included in my logs. (E.g. how many times each rival is contacted via the F4 screen.) It seems that sometime between then and now Firaxis has changed the game so that "trivial" events using the RNG don't affect major events.

Pardon, I'm a little slow, but are you saying that contacting rivals can affect the RNG? In my game I had a computer crash right after the critical turn where civs were gifted into the MA. When I replayed the turn (I thought identically), everone got different free techs. Could my contacting them in a different order be the reason?

Civgeek

Aug 10, 2004, 07:51 AM

It is really astonishing how similar the settlements are in this game. In Sir Plebs I see another set of 95% similar towns again.
It will be intersting to see one of Dianthus' settlement-placement maps after everybody has submmitted their games. Too bad it sounds like a few more people than normal wont be submitting.

Civgeek

Aug 10, 2004, 07:56 AM

Any war declared on me would mean happiness now, and happiness in future when I declared war on that Civ. Reverse war weariness seemed especially desirable because we had only one luxury - happiness was definitely going to be a problem.
This is about the third time I've seen somebody mention "reverse war weariness", somthing I didn't know existed. Can anybody explain it or point me to a thread that discusses it?

Abegweit

Aug 10, 2004, 08:00 AM

Reverse war weariness is when your citizens are happy that you are at war. This happens when the enemy declares. Eventually it wears off, but it takes a fair amount of time to do so.

SniperDevil

Aug 10, 2004, 09:36 AM

Really i never knew that. Does that also mean when you declare war later on that same civ your people will be happy?

Lmtoops

Aug 10, 2004, 10:18 AM

Pardon, I'm a little slow, but are you saying that contacting rivals can affect the RNG? In my game I had a computer crash right after the critical turn where civs were gifted into the MA. When I replayed the turn (I thought identically), everone got different free techs. Could my contacting them in a different order be the reason?

The RNG and how it's effected can be a confusing subject. For instance, with cities flipping to the AI civ. I had a city with approx. 10 units in it (it had about a 2% chance of flipping) and it flipped. So I decided to replay the turn (no I'm not submitting the game), and I emptied the city of all troops except one spearman. So, did the city flip? Of course not, that would be too logical. In fact, the city remained in my possesion the entire game.

I had similar results in reverse. I have a city that has a good chance of flipping, so I keep 1-2 units in the city and the city does not flip for many turns. Then I decide to move a approx. 10 units into the city, and so, of course, it flips the very next turn. Very Confusing.

Drazek

Aug 10, 2004, 10:19 AM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif

I moved one tile west with the worker and decided to settle there.

In 1870 BCE India demands writing. No way I'm going to give so it's war. I have one warrior on the chokepoint hill. It defeats two warriors before reinforcements arrive. I destroy one Indian town defended by a warrior and Gandhi gives Karachi in a peace deal. With it I have access to horses near Delhi and I put a town there in 950 BCE.

I got all contacts quite early so I was scared not to get Republic as a free tech. I turned about half of my citizens to scientists and I succesfully got Republic in 1475 BCE.

Stats when entering MA in 975 BCE:
11 towns, 3 settlers, 12 workers, 9 warriors, 1 spearman, 3 curraghs
1 library, 1 granary, 1 harbor

Here's a picture of my city placements. I like quite tight placing. I'm going to put more towns in red circles. I left the barb camp in the north so that I could train my cavalries to elites. Got about 5 elites this way.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/drazek_cotm03_975bc.jpg

Next I'm going to wipe out Indians and deny AI as much resources as I can. At least, I hope to remove Dutch iron and Ottoman saltpeter. I'm going for conquest or histographic if seems like I don't get early enough conquest. Early enough is perhaps before 800 CE. I tried to read all quick conquest descriptions by SirPleb (GOTM19), Qitai (GOTM20&22) and DaveMcW (GOTM20), but I'll tell in the next spoiler did I succeed.

Civgeek

Aug 10, 2004, 11:48 AM

Reverse war weariness is when your citizens are happy that you are at war. This happens when the enemy declares. Eventually it wears off, but it takes a fair amount of time to do so.
So how is reverse war weariness affected by governement type? i.e. do you get more of an impact if you are in Republic or Democracy or less.

solenoozerec

Aug 10, 2004, 12:28 PM

At least, I hope to remove Dutch iron and Ottoman saltpeter.

How do you know about Ottoman's saltpeter if you just entered MA?
And are we allowed to post anything about saltpeter in this forum?

Drazek

Aug 10, 2004, 02:50 PM

How do you know about Ottoman's saltpeter if you just entered MA?
They have Sipahi and I'm not going to fight them. If they don't have saltpeter, that's great.

Megalou

Aug 10, 2004, 03:41 PM

So how is reverse war weariness affected by governement type? i.e. do you get more of an impact if you are in Republic or Democracy or less.Monarchy or despotism. Those are two government types that allow reverse war weariness. Democracy and republic do not. I haven't tried any of the new government types, and I don't know about communism. I'd be surprised if no one enlightens further us on this issue.

It's only a matter of one unhappy citizen becoming content, I think, but as you know SirPleb is a pro.

AlanH

Aug 10, 2004, 03:42 PM

Megalou

Aug 10, 2004, 03:47 PM

Alan, that sounds like the first introduction to the preface of a novice programming course. Yet, I can only guess: Is the RNG like some kind of blob that never assumes exactly the same form again, even though the randomness involves completely different things on the screen?

al_thor

Aug 10, 2004, 04:17 PM

I have almost given up on this game several times. For some reason, I developed a deep hatred of India, and have more or less devoted the game to wiping him out, which has not been easy by any means, as he was always much more advanced than I. However, this 'single-minded' devotion has probably cost me the game, but I care not about that as it has made the game VERY fun to play as I have not fretted over decisions and strategies - just went with the flow and tried to make life miserable for Ghandi.

The good news-
1) I'm still alive
2) I have FINALLY wiped out the hated Indians :ar15: and I have almost all of his land (Ottoman's took a couple of India's cities).

The bad news-
1) Carthage is absolutely HUGE and threatens Domination, Space Race.
2) I'm stuck in the Industrial Age while all other AI have (and are launching :eek: ) nuclear weapons :nuke: :twitch:
3) Any of the 3 rival civs could do Space Race before I even get to the Modern Age.

There are only 4 of us left - Carthage, Netherlands, Ottomans. I figure the only chance I have is Diplomatic. Ottoman's built the UN over 40 or 50 turns ago, but have not held a vote yet. Maybe they never will. They are at war with Carthage. Everyone was Gracious to me (except India of course :evil: ) and now they are just plain Polite and only that after giving them $100, otherwise they are Annoyed. I am currently in Monarchy but I will find out the preffered gov't of the remaining 3 and switch a gov't that they like or at least do not hate and hope for a Diplo vote.

This could be my highest scoring, longest played Loss ever, but it was all worth it as I had a blast playing this map. (class = Open).
Thanks Ainwood!! :goodjob:

MjM

Aug 10, 2004, 07:17 PM

This COTM reminded me why Im not at the Demigod diffuiculty yet :(

Psychonaut777

Aug 10, 2004, 09:52 PM

^ same here. I have a whole lot to learn. I can't believe the amazing start I had, but it all went downhill in the MA. It was all I could do to stay at peace, but it was impossible to keep up in tech! =(

al_thor

Aug 10, 2004, 11:52 PM

The only reason that I am in the Industrial Age is that I shut my Science off before learning Education and then I captured the Great Library from India. That rocketed me all the way into the the middle of the Industrial Age in one turn - it was awesome!

I bought and sold my way through a good part of the Industrial until the AI just outpaced me again.

I'm a Republic now. Carthage made peace with Ottoman's but then the Dutch declared on Carthage. Bad idea - Carthage hit him with 6 or 7 nukes. Dutch will soon be conquered by Carthage which will probably put him over the 66% Domination limit. Yikes!

One thing that scares me in this game - I have witnessed the AI do the following tactic with great success: They bombard a coastal city with Bombers and ships, and then use Marines for Amphibious (sp?) assault, easily taking the city.

SirPleb

Aug 11, 2004, 12:48 AM

are you saying that contacting rivals can affect the RNG? In my game I had a computer crash right after the critical turn where civs were gifted into the MA. When I replayed the turn (I thought identically), everone got different free techs. Could my contacting them in a different order be the reason?
As AlanH says, you get random responses from the other Civs when speaking with them. The RNG gives out a predetermined sequence of "random" numbers. So if it is called an extra time in one person's method of playing vs. another's then all subsequent results in the two games can be different - one person is now using numbers further down in that predetermined sequence than the other for the same events.

It looks like Conquests has a different approach to this than when I last checked it. It seems to be using two (or more) separate RNG sequences, one for "important" events such as battle results, another for "unimportant" things such as the text message you get when contacting a Civ.

There are a huge number of events in the program which use up a number from the RNG sequence. I don't know if any of them could be different depending on which Civ you contact first when dealing with them. A difference there does seem possible and could account for the different free techs you got.

SirPleb

Aug 11, 2004, 12:52 AM

This is about the third time I've seen somebody mention "reverse war weariness", somthing I didn't know existed. Can anybody explain it or point me to a thread that discusses it?

Click here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=61628) for Oystein's thread describing war weariness and reverse war weariness.

You get reverse war weariness when another Civ declares war on you. Reverse war weariness goes away when enough things which cause regular war weariness have happened, e.g. your units or cities being defeated.

Really i never knew that. Does that also mean when you declare war later on that same civ your people will be happy?
As far as I know: If any Civ which you've been at peace with since the start of the game declares war on you, then for the rest of the game any time you are at peace with them, and any previous war weariness you might have had with them has worn off, then if you declare war on that Civ you start off with a fresh quota of reverse war weariness.

Monarchy or despotism. Those are two government types that allow reverse war weariness. Democracy and republic do not.
...
It's only a matter of one unhappy citizen becoming content, I think
I think you get reverse war weariness in every government type, including Republic and Democracy.

For each Civ you are getting reverse war weariness from, I think you get one happy face per four citizens in each city, rounded down. E.g. if you are getting reverse war weariness from three rivals, a town with 3 citizens gets no benefit but a town with 4 citizens gets three happy faces.

Abegweit

Aug 11, 2004, 07:47 AM

@Drazek and SirPleb

Remarkable that all three of us entered the Middle Ages in exactly the same year with precisely the same techs and a similar-sized empire.

krisk

Aug 11, 2004, 01:28 PM

It was really easy in this game to help speed up the tech rate by playing tech trader. But my game hasn't been great, and I tend to think that speeding up the tech rate might have been partly to blame.

I know that the top players like to speed things up to get earlier wins, but for those of us who are only just becoming comfortable with, say, Emperor level, might it be a better idea to slow down the tech pace on these higher levels?

It just seems to me that a player needs to make sure that his or her empire expands at a rate comparable to the tech rate, so that the manufacturing base is capable of producing the more shield-expensive uints, so that the economy can afford to keep up with the rising costs of technology and so that the infrastructure doesn't become outdated.

For example, getting to the industrial ages before having had a chance to build a single library or bank will be a problem if the AIs decide that their techs are worth more than you can afford to pay but you still don't have the literacy to research them yourself any faster than the 50-turn minimum.

Does this make sense?

AlanH

Aug 11, 2004, 02:13 PM

As AlanH says, you get random responses from the other Civs when speaking with them. The RNG gives out a predetermined sequence of "random" numbers. So if it is called an extra time in one person's method of playing vs. another's then all subsequent results in the two games can be different - one person is now using numbers further down in that predetermined sequence than the other for the same events.That's right. The RNG is just a list of jumbled numbers. The software uses each number in turn when it wants to make a decision. It compares it against a threshold value for that decision to get a Yes or No.

It looks like Conquests has a different approach to this than when I last checked it. It seems to be using two (or more) separate RNG sequences, one for "important" events such as battle results, another for "unimportant" things such as the text message you get when contacting a Civ.That's interesting. I know that Cracker campaigned for this to improve the comparability of games. Sounds like Firaxis may have listened.

There are a huge number of events in the program which use up a number from the RNG sequence. I don't know if any of them could be different depending on which Civ you contact first when dealing with them. A difference there does seem possible and could account for the different free techs you got.It's very difficult to be sure you called up the civs in exactly the same sequence and excactly the same number of times. Just one extra query, or a return to check with a previously contacted civ would break the sequence.

bradleyfeanor

Aug 11, 2004, 07:33 PM

It's very difficult to be sure you called up the civs in exactly the same sequence and exactly the same number of times. Just one extra query, or a return to check with a previously contacted civ would break the sequence.

You are right. The first time around there were dozens of contacts on that turn, just to check for what they had and to find the best trades. I only recorded contacts that involved trades in my log. The second time I went straight for the trades more or less. I had no clue that it made a difference.

Thanks for all the feedback guys.

Darkness

Aug 12, 2004, 06:38 AM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif (predator)

I completely forgot to keep a detailed timeline this game (must have been the heat, cause it’s been over 30 degrees in Holland the last week), and I also forgot to save at 1000BC (so no QSC for me), but here’s a short summary of my game…

My ancient age was quite uneventful….
I had little trouble with barbarians, except for a village on the northern peninsula

After moving the worker west, I saw the cattle and with some fog gazing I also saw the game, so the settler went SE, to built my capital/settler factory.
Researched pottery at max, followed by the Republic slingshot, which was successful in 1275BC, after which I drew a 4-turn anarchy. After establishing my Republic I traded for some other techs and continued expanding

The Byzantine empire at 1000 BC:
11 towns (total population: 23)
1 granary, 2 barracks
3 settlers, 11 workers, 10 warriors, 1 spearman and 2 curraghs
Treasury: 379 gold
Missing AA techs: Monarchy, currency, construction and literature (will get literature next turn)
Six contacts and embassies…
Score: 346, less than half of India’s score, my next door neighbour….

Research continued and in 710BC I discovered currency, and I was the first civilization to enter the Middle Ages… Trading and gifting techs to/with the scientific AI’s netted me Monotheism (Ottoman & Russia) and Engeneering (Persia), so I got Feudalism as my free tech…

The plan: build libraries and barrack. Hook up horses and iron. Build lots of horseman. Upgrade to knights. Eliminate India…. (I hope)

King Of America

Aug 13, 2004, 07:54 AM

re: response of AI to contact

Bamspeedy wrote a long article about AI attitude, in which I thouight he says that the AI's initial attitude is Civ-dependent.

Was he wrong or are you talking about a different aspect of diplomacy?

bradleyfeanor

Aug 13, 2004, 10:14 AM

Bamspeedy wrote a long article about AI attitude, in which I thouight he says that the AI's initial attitude is Civ-dependent.

Was he wrong or are you talking about a different aspect of diplomacy?

If you are refering to the conversation I was in, we were actually talking about how contacting an AI consults the Random Number Generator (RNG). When you contact someone, the game calls on a random number to determine the AIs words, but this has no relation to AI attitude. Bamspeedy's article is correct as far as I know.

dominox

Aug 13, 2004, 11:09 AM

The Moose

Aug 13, 2004, 11:19 AM

So I ask you - those that actually managed to stay ahead in tech in this game.. How on earth did you do it?

I was just lucky. It seems that I always researched a tech that the AI wasn't (Modern Age: 18 turns!!!). I then sold it around getting all other available techs plus loads of cash which in the end I used to steal 2 technologies the safe way (3500 gold) and finish the space race ahead of the Ottomans who had 9 parts already finished.....but were at war with Carthage
:clap:

solenoozerec

Aug 13, 2004, 11:26 AM

I will not be submitting this game as I was totally overrun by India.
My problem? Tech!
How on earth do you manage to stay ahead in tech in games as hard as this one?
I usualy play my games on harder leves like Deity, but I gave up on tech and wonders a long time ago. Basicly, I turn the tax-slider to 0% science and trade for techs as soon as I can afford them. Still, by the time I reach the middle ages the AI is often finished with it.

After giving up on this game, I have re-played it several times to see if I can find out what I'm doing wrong. I've tried several strategies without any luck. When abandoning all other "usefull" techs to try for the republic slingshot, the AI still gets philosophy way ahead of me - even when micromanaging my cities to get as much commerce as possible.

So I ask you - those that actually managed to stay ahead in tech in this game.. How on earth did you do it?

I also lost this game, but I submitted it (I want to compete for the lowest score). But I was leading in tech before MA and in the beginning of MA. That was simple. Research writing on minimum and then philosophy on maximum. But most important build curraghs and explore. Get one tech from one civ and sell it to others who haven't this tech. In this particular game, most of civs didn't know each other, but I new all of them. The trouble began when they get to know each other. But still, I was first who got feudalism (though it was free tech).
And I lost not because of tech, but simply because I started to trust Indians and become irresponsible about defense.

zagnut

Aug 13, 2004, 02:37 PM

Trade was certainly the key to the Ancient Age in this game. If you sent out Curraghs early then you met the other civs and could trade around all of the AA techs. That strategy went south when the other civs knew each other. The AI can research techs at this level much faster than you. I think you will find that the players who are successful in this game took on India and managed to control the continent at an early date.

At this point I am not one of them. I have fought one war with India and captured two cities, but then made peace when the War Elephants started coming. However, very soon the second wave of Byzantine Bandits will be invading India.

You can also slow down the tech race by declaring war on civs on the other continents and then allying with their neighbors. The two civs then fight with one another and it is very unlikely that the one you are at war with will send any units by sea to invade you. Even if they do it is invariably one or two units which you can quickly kill. The advantage of this is that an AI civ at war will reduce science to finance unit production. They will also switch to a less productive form of government. If you start a couple of these wars then you can dramatically slow down the AI ability to produce new techs.

Peglegasus

Aug 13, 2004, 03:08 PM

Conquest class

I'm playing conquest class for 2 reasons: first, I've been getting pounded on Emperor lately, and second this is my first C3C game. I made the mistake of buying the PTW expansion a while back and didn't realize it would have been included in the C3C release. Gotm 31 was my first. Couldn't finish 32 in time because of computer problems. Gotm 33 I got a really bad start and was overrun by barbs and did a poor job of early expansion. Don't think I'll finish it by the deadline. I've been learning tons in my succession games with Team Peanut and hopefully I'll be able to put some of it to use here in this game.

Opening moves: settler goes west and finds ivory and game, the workers go for the cattle immediately, and my second settler goes SW. In 3850 BC Constantinople is founded, nestled between the 3 ivories. Adrianople is founded on the coast and on the river the same year, 2 tiles SW of the start. The two cities will be able to alternate using the game and bonus grass tiles if need be. Workers first tasks will be to irrigate and road the cattle, hook up ivory, chop the game for granary and then irrigate and road it. Research is pottery at max.

My first warrior goes south from Adrianople and finds a volcano?! Cool! Build an MP in Adrianople and then a curragh. Constantinople sends one warrior north, then one south, then builds one for an MP, before starting the granary. The first curragh heads south and then east. My northern scouting warrior finds the tip of the land mass and a barb camp there. He attacks and dies. After researching pottery we go for min research on writing. I'm sure someone will beat us to it so we'll probably have to buy it. Second curragh goes north and then west around the northern peninsula. In 2710 BC we have met India and sold them pottery, have finished our granary in the capitol, and have found yellow territorial border in the northeast.

Early Expansion and Exploration Adrianople builds a settler around the time that Constantinople finishes its granary, so the settler moves out towards the land bridge to the southwest and Constantinople starts a settler. The yellow border is the Dutch territory. They are annoyed with us and William sure has a goofball look on his face. Is that a pout? A scowl? A pouty scowl? In 2350 BC we found our next 2 cities. Caesarea is founded on the land bridge just before the hill. Nicaea is founded just SW of the choke point. Reading the other posts it looks like most everyone else founded ON that hill and ON the bonus grassland chokepoint. Hope that doesn't bite me in the future. I'm hoping to get a couple settlers down there just north and SW of the chokepoint to take some of Ghandi's land and allow some room for a future attack.

We meet the Vikings in 2230 BC. They have writing already so I'm glad we didn't research it. They want all our treasury plus gold per turn for it. Buy Iron working from India for 220, then trade it to Scandinavia with an additional 65 coins for writing. Trade writing to the Dutch for Ceremonial Burial, Warrior Code, +110. Trade writing to India for the Wheel +170. Set research for Code of Laws in 19 turns. I'm going to try for this philosophy to republic slingshot that everyone talks about.

Meet Russia in 2190 BC. Trade Iron W for Masonry +46. Trade Alphabet for Mysticism. We sell Masonry to Ghandi for 100. I'm starting to worry a bit about sharing the continent with India. At some point I need to go to war for his land, but it needs to be somewhat on my terms to be successful. So for now I need him to be my friend. We give Ghandi Mysticism... he is gracious. I realize after the fact that this may encourage him to research polytheism to monarchy too, possibly leaving philosophy for me. With that thought in mind, I sell Ceremonial Burial to the Vikings for all their gold, then give them Mysticism. They are polite. We build an embassy in Delhi.

2150 BC, Varna is built down by the volcano. Do these things do anything? Or is it just for looks? In 2070 BC we meet Persia and trade Alphabet for Horseback riding +60. Again, the gift of Mysticism. They are polite now as well. 1990 BC: Smyrna founded. 1870 BC: we meet the Ottomans, and the Vikings have Map Making. In 1750 BC the Ottomans have Polytheism. The tech pace is starting to pick up. I'm thinking now that I may need to try for the Great Library. Will try and build it in Adrianople. Adrianople switched to a Pyramids build in 1910 BC so we are already on our way. In 1600 BC we meet Carthage, and IBT barbs start coming out of the nearby camps. There is a barb camp on the iron just NE of the capitol.

The Mad Dash We make it to Code of Laws first and now we are racing to Philosophy. 1525 BC: Sell masonry tothe Dutch for 100. 1500 BC: Heraclea founded. 1475 BC: Trebizond and Chalcedon founded on the fringe of India's culture. I will need temples and libraries in these towns asap. In 1425 BC we make it to Philosophy and... Republic! Trade Horseback riding to Dutch for Map Making +25. Sell Philosphy to Ghandi for 86. Gift Ghandi Code of Laws- he is gracious again. Sell Vikings Code of Laws for Math. Gift them Philosophy. Gift Philosophy to Russia. Trade Iron working, Horseback Riding, writing, and Math to Ottomans for Polytheism +27. And the revolt begins... our advisors say it will be about 6 turns. Adrianople starves from size 7 to size 4. I think Constantinople starved from 6 to 5. Bother.

In 1275 BC the Republic of Byzantium is born. The entertainment slider goes to 20 and the research slider to 40. I'm trying to get the discovery of Literature to coincide with my pre-build in Adrianople. This is similar to what Team Peanut did in our current succession game, although we ended up rushing with a leader when it became available. Anyway this is what Civ_Steve explained to us: If you research a tech at full or at least as fast as you are able, it becomes cheaper for the AI to research that same tech. And after you have researched it fully it becomes still cheaper. What we did in the succession game was research Lit almost all the way, and then turned off research completely until our pre build could catch up and the other civs could finish some wonders. We didn't want them to "cascade" into the Great Library. Anyway, I'm hoping that C3C works in a similar way.

I'm forced to switch over to the Temple of Artemis in my pre-build. Don't remember who built what wonders. I'm able to cash rush temples in the border towns. The Indian towns there have not had cultural expansion yet.

In 1250 BC we build Sardica on the northern peninsula just below the barb camp and next to the horses. The camp is dispersed but the barbs just sit there! Of course this is explained to me a bit in the spoliers now, but at the time I found it most bizarre.http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/pegbyza2.JPG

In 1175 BC the wonder cascade begins! Switch to palace in 21 and literature in 21. The only wonders being built are the Temple of Artemis and The Hanging Gardens. 1000 BC: lose a settler to a barb horseman. Bah! I forget to take a screenshot and write my stuff down.

So in 975 BC I have:
1 settler
12 workers
2 spears
7 warriors
11 towns
2 granaries
2 barracks
3 temples
1 city wall

Literature is in 4 turns now. We have 329 gold, and the Vikings have just discovered construction. And IBT we learn that Byzantium is the Happiest civilization :D We build Dyrrachium on the coast just NE of the iron, dispersing the barb camp there.

950 BC: play with the slider and rearrange some citizens in Adrianople so we are due for the palace in 5 and Lit in 3. Don't want to grow again and get too many extra shields that I end up accidentally building a palace.

900 BC: the Ottomans demand Republic. I think long and hard about this. Eventually I decide no, because if something goes wrong with my Great Library build I may need to use Republic as a bargaining tool to get some MA techs. We refuse the Ottomans, and they DON'T DECLARE! That was a big surprise. He tells me: "Your insolence has been noted, Theodora".

875 BC: We have Literature! Switch Adrianople over to Great Library in 9 turns. Decide that this would be a really bad time for Ghandi to start getting uptight. We give Ghandi a gift of 5 gold per turn, and he is still gracious. Cash rush a library in Chalcedon. In 860 The Temple of Artemis and The Hanging Gardens are complete! Only pre build going now is the Great Wall by the Vikings. 800 BC: Persia demands polytheism. We give it to him. 775 BC: hurry a library in Nicaea. 690 BC: India and Russia are now building the Great Library! Won't they be surprised when we finish it on the next turn. :p The volcano down by Varna erupts! Holy cow! That's pretty cool. I wonder if I had placed my city right next to it if it would have been destroyed... does that happen? Our first Dromon is built.

670 BC: Ghandi offers furs for ivory +1 gold per turn. Sure, sounds great! First techs from the Great Library roll in: Monarchy and Construction. I check with the other civs to see if they are worth trading around. Not really. Better to keep them in the dark as long as possible probably. 650 BC: Septum founded. 610 BC: the first and only dromon we've built is sunk by barb galleys after spewing a bit of dramatic fire. Kind of reminded me of those oriental dragons in parades: lots of smoke and noise, but no danger. We'll see. I'm determined to build a few more and try to see if they can be successful maybe in packs.

And Finally... In 570 BC we get currency from the Great Library, launching us into the Middle Ages. Our free tech is Engineering. The Ottomans and Russians got Feudalism, so we should get that free next turn. The Vikings, Dutch, and Persians still in the Ancient Age. We give Persia currency and construction to bring them up to speed. They get Engineering too.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/pegbyza1.JPG

And there you have it. At the end of the Ancient Age we have

2 settlers, 14 workers, 6 warriors, 5 archers, 5 spears, and 2 dromons. We have built 2 granaries, 2 barracks, 4 temples, 3 libraries, 1 harbor, 2 city walls.

India is 1st in score with 871. We are 6th with 583 with the Netherlands and Vikings trailing. Ottomans are first in culture. Carthage is first in military.

For the future: I need to take on India soon. I'm sure that they will be able to get Feudalism from the Russians or Ottomans, so I will be facing pikes and MI. My horses are nearly hooked up and the iron can be hooked up pretty quickly. My 3 border towns all have walls and each has an archer and a spear. Will upgrade those to pikes for defense and maybe add a catapult to each for defensive shot. My assault should come from both Chalcedon and Trebizond so they have to divide defenders. Hopefully My dromons will be of some use, bombarding from the coast.

So my deals with Ghandi expire in 20 turns... We'll see if I can prepare an assault in that time. My other concern is technology. I need to get libraries put in soon so that when the benefits of The Great Library expire, we are ready to do some self research and stay in the game.

dominox

Aug 13, 2004, 03:24 PM

hm.. thanks alot for your tips. I tried Curraghs early and everything went alot better. Still I'm unable to do the republic slingshot though, and India seems to overpower me sooner or later anyways due to my effort in expansion..

Guess I'll give it another few tries just for the fun of it :)

denyd

Aug 13, 2004, 03:46 PM

Dominox: I gave it up early too and have been replaying it a couple of different ways while waiting for GOTM 34. What seems to be working so far is building a stack of swords (or MDI if you have Feudalism) & trebuche, with a pike or two to absorb attacks and aiming for one Indian city at a time. I've also got about 10 Dromons to use for bombardment for coastal cities. My plan is to raze India city by city and replace with my own new cities (lots of slaves that way). I keep razing Indian cities until he's ready to give me a tech for peace (seems to take 3 cities to get there) and then I sign peace, heal & reposition my troops and insist he withdraw his troops and he declares war on me and I start attacking again. Delhi has the Pyramids, Great Wall and Bangalore has Sun Tzu, so those two cities are last on my list to attack as I want to keep them. I've managed to be only Invention, Feudalism & Chivalry behind at this point. Give this strategy a try and let me know how it goes.

Peglegasus: You might want to start GOTM 34 on Sunday. It's at regent and will give you a better chance to finish your first GOTM. This was a tough one to try if your having trouble at Emperor. (I'm can normally win an Emperor, but above that I'm 50-50).

Peglegasus

Aug 13, 2004, 04:02 PM

Peglegasus: You might want to start GOTM 34 on Sunday. It's at regent and will give you a better chance to finish your first GOTM. This was a tough one to try if your having trouble at Emperor. (I'm can normally win an Emperor, but above that I'm 50-50).

Yes, I'm definitely looking forward to that. Should be a fun game and I'm sure there will be lots of super fast finishes.

I have a question: I'm building the Statue of Zeus in Constantinople. Should I finish it? Are those units going to be useful at all for me? I could switch to Sun Tzu's as a prebuild for something, but because it's my capitol I can't switch to palace to hold shields for something like Copernicus or Newton's. And I just realized: I gave Ghandi ivory so he may crank that thing out before I finish! Bother. Didn't think of that before!

denyd

Aug 13, 2004, 05:44 PM

I would take SoZ now if Gandhi has already started SoZ. If you can manage to get a Great Leader you could either use for an Army of Ancient Cavalry (great pillagers) or to hurry along Sun Tzu.

One of the reasons I think I might have a chance after I started over when the first Indian war ended was that I've managed to get 2 GL's and turn them both into AC Armies. One is busy pillaging all of India's resources and the other is escorting the SOD to it's target and killing the strongest defender.

I probably won't finish this, but killing off India will make this game a success.

DaveMcW

Aug 13, 2004, 11:25 PM

So I ask you - those that actually managed to stay ahead in tech in this game.. How on earth did you do it?

The best way is to slow down the tech rate by allying everyone against the richest civ. Unfortunately India was the richest civ in this game, so fighting them was not an option at the start. I compromised by declaring war on the 2nd and 3rd richest civs and paying India to join me.

Verowin

Aug 14, 2004, 11:12 PM

Way to hard for me. Kept up in th tech race until the start of the middle ages. timed my Golden age, produced my courthouses and libraries, but India was far ahead, that i do not stand a change. I captured some cities far Carthage, but they are far away. Sorry, Demi-god is to hard me, I am giving up and wait for the classis one.

WackenOpenAir

Aug 16, 2004, 04:46 PM

4000BC
I move my worker NW since if I don’t move, that probably would be the square to work. I see a cow there. Settling where I stand gives little grassland, so I move the settler SW to get some more area while still maintaining the river, coast and cow.

3950BC
As I found constantinopel, I notice a game forest. When this forest is cut and irrigated and the cows is irrigated, I will have a 5 food surplus for this city. With those 2 tiles and 2 shielded grassland, I can make 7 food at size 4. So a size 4-5 4 turn settler factory will be possible. Therefore, I start researching pottery at max. (14 turns).
I start producing a curragh for scouting.

2900BC
I meet russia, they offer me warrior code and 10 gold for alphabet. I decide to wait a little bit since I am doing a 10% on writing now and warrior code is not so important for me.

2670BC
I meet the ottomans. They have Masonry, Warrior code and Ceremonial burial.
My warrior scout finds a barbarian camp but has only 1 hp now after beating 2 barbarian attacks. I choose to wait and heal a little before attacking it.

2630BC
I meet India. Waiting to trade seems to pay of now.
I trade Alphabet to Russia for Masonry, Warrior code and 35 gold.
I trade Alphabet to the Ottomans for Ceremonial and 54 gold.
My first settler is ready.

2550BC
I meet Carthage. I trade them Ceremonial for The wheel and some gold.
I give the Ottomans the wheel and 18 gold for Mysticism.
Adrianople founded.

2230BC
Meet Scandinavia

2190BC
Get Iron Working + 35 gold from India for Mysticism
Get 70 gold from Scandinavia for Ceremonial Burial.

1910BC
Meet Persia
Get Horseback Riding + 110gold from Persia for Mysticism + Alphabet

1700BC
Meet the Dutch
Sell Masonry to the Dutch for 135 gold.

1675BC
Math from Carthage for Horseback.
Buy Polytheism + 60 gold from ottomans for Horseback, Ironworking and Math.

1550BC
139 gold for Horseback from India.

1500BC
I am only building granaries, workers and worriors now everywhere. The first city that finished its granary started the statue of zeus. With the ivory limitation, I should have good chances to complete it, or maybe I might swich it to lighthouse someday.

I am going for a republic slignshot, just having code and starting philosphy now. This will be a close call as one of my opponents who has writing has quite some other techs after writing as well, making it more and more likely for him to go philosphy. Anyway, I am absolutely the middle man in trading, I should have absolutely no problem obtaining most AA techs trough trading, so going philosophy before code would be totally unneeded. (Free techs are basically unneeded, unless it’s an expensive and hard to trade on like republic)

1350BC
Republic slingshot succeded ! what a relief :D. Time to trade some. (I stopped all trades last turns in order for the AI to have as many research options as possible, thus lowering the chance they go Philosophy.)
Map Making + 50 gold from the dutch for The Wheel + Philosophy
Construction + 39 gold from Carthage for Poly + Philosophy
57 gold from Persia for Philosophy
117 gold from the Ottomans for Philosophy
All AI’s are out of gold now, I am 2-7 techs ahead on all.
1042 gold in cash. Only Currency to go for 2th era.

1075BC
The AI’s seem to have met eachother a bit by now. Most of the AI have cought up quite a bit on tech and are only 1-2 techs behing me now. It seems the rediculous trading has started.
Also got a few AI demands for techs that I gave in to.

1000BC stats:
AA techs except monarchy, Literacy and Currency in 2 turns. Medeval age in 950BC
Still in despotism, gonna revolt within a few turns.

11 towns (29 pop total)
2 settlers
12 workers
7 worriors
2 spearmen
1 swordsman
4 granaries

950BC
MA.

Sandman2003

Aug 16, 2004, 05:25 PM

Open

I have finally played through (in one sitting) the AA, and so now qualify for this thread. On the negative, I again failed to build sufficient workers. On the positive, I fared reasonably well through the AA, and performed the leap into the MA quite well thanks to some advice from Sir Pleb after GOTM33.

First moves were worker west (like most), revealing the cow in the plains as the fog gazers had claimed in the pregame spoiler! My hat is off to you, I saw nothing in the fog suggesting a cow! Anyway, I realised that a plains cow is not really worth enough food to make a reasonable settler pump, and with grasslands revealed, I considered it worthwhile (in a human engineered game) to move a little further. So I moved the settler SW, though this added nothing useful to the view. The second worker move west along the river revealed the game, though, and the opportunity for a four turn settler pump! So I settled in my new spot, on the coast, and able to bring both the game and the cow into the expanded city radius.

Builds were two curraghs, two warriors , then a granary, and a short while later, when the worker had finished his moves to chop and irrigate the game square, and to irrigate the ivory, then the cow square, our four turn pump was up and running. I actually didn't play my sequence of worker turns particularly efficiently, however, starting with irrigating ivory before the game, in the hopes of utilising the forect chop to speed a granary, and so delaying the cut until we had pottery. There was plenty of forest I could have cut, so in future I will simply go straight for the maximum food bonus and develop that tile first.

The Ancient Age in my game, and pretty much everyone else's it seems, was characterised by a fast and furious trading regime. I had no wars, except right towards the very end of the AA, a phony war with the Dutch.

Research was writing at min, then philosophy at max. I actually found that while this meant that I did not reach writing first, after trading for it, I had too much time for research on philosophy. I may well have been better off to go for code of laws at max before philosophy, because I believe that I would have had time to research both. The AI's priorities appear to lie elsewhere.

Contacts and Trades
3100BC - First contact was India. All my contacts were made via the curraghs. India had the all important Pottery, but it was too expensive at monopoly prices.

3050BC - Meet Russia. Trade Alphabet for Pottery and 10 gold.

2950BC – Meet Ottomans – trade alphabet and 3 gold for masonry.
Trade masonry and 87 gold to Russia for warrior code.
Warrior code gets ceremonial burial and 10 gold off India.

2390BC – Meet Carthage trade CB for the wheel and 10 gold.
Trade Ottos the wheel and 18 gold for mysticism.

2310BC Found second city getting the ivory resource

2230BC – Russia discovers writing 13 turns before us!!! They don’t want to deal! Meet Netherlands, trade masonry for 135 gold.
Trade mysticism, the wheel, 1gpt, 220 gold for writing from Russia.
Research to philosophy at max.
Carthage sells math and 15 gold for writing and mysticisim
Sell ottos math for 160 gold.

2190BC - Sell maths to Russia for 204 gold.

2070BC – Trade India math for iron working and 50 gold.
Trade Russia Iron Working for HBR and 11 gold.
Meet Scandinavia. – Sell Ragnar CB for 70 gold.

1950BC – Found 3rd city.

1725BC – Meet Persia.. Trade alphabet for 85 gold.

1700BC Trade Carthage HBR and IW for map making. There is no sign of either polytheism or code of laws amongst the AI, so I enfd up slowing down philosophy in hope that either polytheism or code of laws will pop out soon.

Finally, polytheism does pop, and so we slowly finish off philosophy, hoping that code of laws will also come along. It doesn't.

1450BC - We finish philosophy research and get monarchy as our free tech, An immediate revolt draws 5 turns of anarchy.

1350BC - We become a monarchy.

At 1000BC we have,
9 cities
1 settler
3 workers
4 warriors
2 archers
2 spears
1 curragh

1 barracks
1 harbour
1 granary

As a rule of thumb, some players like to have a worker per city. SO at this stage I would have to consider myself -6 workers, and this is definitely something I should work on.

Entry to MA
This time I wanted to be certain of a successful entry into the MA utilising the free techs off the other scientific civs. There was only currency and code of laws remaining of the required AA techs (still no literature or republic.
I started max research on currency, but when the AI researched it, I switched to code of laws. This was actually another mistake. I wanted to research my last AA tech, so that I could use the big picture to trade for the scientific civs free techs, then choose something different for myself. So I thought that I had better research code of laws so I could trade it to the AI for currency. In the end, they beat me to code of laws, and it was traded round further than currency, meaning it would have been cheaper to buy. So I threw away time researching one and swapping part way through to the other for no gain!

900BC - With 1 turn remaining on my code of laws research, I brought currency off the Ottomans for 509 gold. Both the Ottomans and the Russians had already made it into the MA. Persia was way behind. In the inter-turn, my research on code of laws completed, and I used the big picture to enter the trading screen. Both Ottos and Russia had received engineering as their free tech. I gifted Persia into the MA. Persia got Monotheism. I had monarchy and around 1000 gold to trade with the Ottos and the Persians. The Russians already had monarchy as well.

I brought engineering off the Ottomans for monarchy and 278 gold. I then gifted Persia into the MA, hoping they would pick up something else. They did - monotheism. Engineering and monarchy gets me monotheism. I then chose theology as our free tech, putting me squarely in a tech lead. Selling monotheism to the Ottomans meant that I also got back all my gold, and so slowed down the lead AI's tech growth.

The Future
I think this scenario begs for a quick spaceship race. So that will be the target. However, in the short term we need more breathing space, and the Indians are obviously going to be a problem. They are already crowding our area, and have the maximum area and population statistics.

civ_steve

Aug 17, 2004, 09:28 AM

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/common/swordsman_small.gif

I could actually see a hoof dangling in the fog, saying come this way ... So the Worker went W and Settler NW. I thought about that - a Cow in the Plains, after irrigation becomes 3 Food. Nice but just one Food better than a plain start, so I decide to search around some more, and my Worker saw the Games space. Much Better!! So I formed a land-locked Capital W SW of original start in 3850 BC; SW of original start is probably better - it's coastal, on river, and will get both Cows and Game on expansion; my location uses Games immediately, gains more River squares within radius, and one Ivory.

I need Pottery ASAP, and start researching it. 1st build is a SPEARMAN! I never build Spearmen, but I finished chopping the Games Forest on the same turn and didn't want to just throw away 10 shields. At +3 Food overall, Constantinople will grow to size2 in 4 turns; coincidentally that's the same amount of time to build a Worker, assuming +2 shields on the growth, so a Worker is the 2nd build. 1st Worker just finishes Irrigating the Games, so +4 food or 5 turns to grow. Time to get the Cows Irrigated for 4 turn Growth, or 2 turns with Granary.

Meanwhile the Spearman heads off exploring. Which direction? North of course! No one's going to be SOUTH of here! It's likely to be just Tundra and Mountains. Ha, Ha. We encounter nobody but a barb camp. I finally meet the Indians in 2750 BC as they send 3 Warriors North to take care of that barb camp. All I have to trade is Pottery (which I learned in 3050 BC, 16 turns; the Worker build delayed Pottery a bit.) Indians have Alphabet and CerBurial (of course) along with Wheel and BronzeWorking, and 60 Gold. No trade at this time; I am completely defenseless and 4 turns from completing Granary, but I figure they have their orders (disperse Barbs!) and will probably not deviate from those orders so I should be OK. (And I was).

After the Worker I built a Warrior, which I sent off Scouting - to the SouthEast (am I striking out or what?). Next was the pre-build for Granary, which was completed in 2630 BC. 3 four-turn Settlers come out next; then I figure out that I can do Warrior/Settler in 4 turns, and build a Barracks (1990 BC) and start doing that, going 4-5-5-6 along the way. Occassionally I forget to move a citizen from the Forest and it takes an extra turn (Aaaarrrgh!!) I also have the option to do a Warrior/Worker combo at 4-5, which I can repeat endlessly.

Anyway, my Warrior figures out that there's just a Volcano and some barbs to the SE, and decides to see where the Indians came from and who they know. I sell Pottery to Gandhi in 2470 BC for 82 Gold; this is to provide money to support my Granary while I keep full research going on Writing. Adrianople is founded to the NNW in 2430 BC (another Land-locked city; some sea-faring tribe I'm turning out to be!) Ceasara is founded on coast to West in 2150 BC (finally a Curragh can be built). Nicea is founded on Hill on Chokepoint in 1870 BC; no more Indians sneaking through. Anyway, I build more cities at fairly frequent intervals.

I learn Writing in 1950 BC, start on Code-of-Laws (25 turns at this point). My only contact is India; they have WarCode, CerBur, Masonry, Wheel and IronWorking. I make NO trade of Writing! I want to try for Philosophy first so I wish to protect my knowledge of Writing, and since he has Monopoly prices on his Techs to me, I want to contact at least one other civ first. Now I think someone (Zagnut?) posted that they saw like 1 Barb Galley. Maybe this is a Predator set-up, but every direction I went had at least 2 Barb Galleys to go through before makeing contact. So my first Curraugh going any direction would sink, leaving usually 1 one-hp Barb behind that a 2nd Curraugh would have to take on before finding the next set. This slowed contacts a bit.

Well, India learns Writing in 1750 BC, before I make contact with anyone else! I finally get through Indian culture to the West and contact the Russians! In 1675 BC! They have all the same Techs India does, including Writing. I learn CodeofLaws in 1475 BC, and trade it to Russia for IronWorking, Masonry and Wheel, and to Gandhi for WarCode, CerBurial and 69 Gold. Now I learn that these two also have Math, Mysticism, Map-Making and HorseBackRiding already! (Well, it is Demi-God). Start on Philosophy, 13 turns it says.

I finally break through the first Barb barrier, and a 1 hp Curraugh goes Westish and meets the Ottomans in 1375 BC. They have Myst and HBackRiding, but don't have the Alphabet yet! Trade Alphabet for Mysticism and 29 Gold. They HAVE Polytheism!! (That seems odd for a Scientific/Industrial civ.) No good trade is available for that, so I trade Writing for HBackRiding and 57 Gold.

With 2 Turns left on Philosophy, I order everybody to don their labcoats and work in the research labs, cutting the turns to 1. Philosophy learned in 1250 BC and ... nothing... Going to learn Republic the hard way! On to trading: trade Phil, CofLaws and 95 Gold to Ottomans for Poly; Poly to Russia for Math (Indians have Currency!!); Poly and Phil to India for Currency and all their Gold; Currency to Ottomans for Map-Making and all their Gold. I'm Tech even or ahead, and have 400+ gold. Republic as fast as possible.

After going through the Barbs to the East, a Curraugh takes the Safe crossing and sees a Dutch Warrior. They are WAAAAY behind, but are rich so I sell a couple of older Techs to get 300+ gold from them.

Contact Carthage in 1175 BC. We are up Currency on Hannible, but no real trade is available.

1100 BC, get reports of a mass Barb Uprising! I never cleared that barb camp near the Volcano to the SE, and now there's 27 Barb Horsemen there!! And me with 700+ Gold in the bank! What to do? First, who has Construction? India and Russia (quite convenient). Next I deposit 585 Gold into the Bank of India, taking Construction as collateral. What do you know, somehow I got the idea for Feudalism as well! And I see Russia has Monotheism. I'm down to 170ish Gold, so I build embassies with Carthage (almost done with Great Lighthouse), the Dutch and India (working on TofArt.) Now only 32 Gold left. I move the defenders away from the city I founded to the SE, and put out a 'FREE GOLD' sign in barbarian. 26 out of the 27 take the bait; I lose only 32 Gold and 8 shields of production. Next turn I move the defenders forward to remove this Barb Camp for good. Meanwhile I see that the Ottomans have also gone Medieval, and have learned Engineering, and traded with Russia (so I have the only unique MidAges tech). I trade Feudalism to Russia for Mono, Eng and 429 Gold. I then reclaim my deposit from India with Monotheism; India is so happy with our business they also throw Furs and a Worker into the deal.

Research goes on for Republic. I finally contact the Vikings in 975 BC (in MidAges with no Techs) and Persia in 850 BC (behind, I sell them Math for 52 Gold) to qualify for this thread. 8 more turns for Republic, then a revolution. When the 20 turns are up on the Fur deal, India will get a surprise - lot's of MedInf. I plan to start my GA about that time with Dromons (I've seen one or two Indian Galleys around), which should sustain the War and allow me to build up my Libraries and Marketplaces. That's my nearterm plans.

The pace has been very fast; however, this is not Pangea like GOTM33 was, so if I gain control of my continent I will have done all required to provide security for my empire. Most likely I will pursue a fast research game for Diplo or Spaceship attempt, although it is tempting to go Militaristic. The extra units that the AI gets at DemiGod, and the fact that I'm starting this game very late tend to make me want to stay away from Conquest or Domination.

Here's my empire at 1000 BC, and my F3 screen shot showing my Military

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/cvst_c03_bc1000Main.JPG

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/cvst_c03_bc1000F3.JPG

Megalou

Aug 18, 2004, 02:01 PM

I think you get reverse war weariness in every government type, including Republic and Democracy. You're right, I just checked in republic. I may have mixed it up with ordinary war weariness. Or has it changed since the beginning?

SwedishChef

Aug 19, 2004, 06:16 AM

Hi,

This was my first GOTM, and my first attempt at demigod. I haven't played or won on emperor, so I decided to go for CONQUESTS level and take the bonus. I'm a little concerned that my map at the end of the ancient age doesn't look like any other map posted. When you see people like sir-pleb post maps that look much different from your own, it makes you worry you've done something horribly wrong - even if you have more territory, maybe I've crippled my culture.... I didn't expand north and I had a MUCH earlier war with India than others.

However, I don't have to worry about India any more... and technology is good...

SUMMARY

I moved 1 NW before settling and sent our bonus settler west. With the cow I could grow every four turns with a granary and alternate - units for 4 turns GROW, settler in 4 turns with 2nd GROWTH. I settled on 3/5 for size.

CRITICAL FLAW #1 - for some reason the idea of cutting the forest on the game tile utterly escaped me. It was stuck in my head as "bonus forest" which was as good as a mined BG. I do believe "FOOD=POWER" and would have unquestionably maximized food for my second city, but my inexperience kept me from thinking of that tile that way. I'm sure I cut too few forests as well.

I created 2 curraghs a few warriors and explored, using a bit of lux slider early and then settling down to lux 0% when I can MP. I planned to explore for contacts to trade tech with...

Adrianople is founded in 3800 BC to the SW of Constantinople. First settler in 2750 BC, second in 2270, third in 2070. This felt VERY slow.

Starting in about 2800 BC I effectively blocked the choke point with India and eventually fortify and later settle there. Also this year I do some good tech trading and become the tech leader - a position I essentially maintain throughout the Ancient Age.

India grew like wildfire - 4 cities when I hadn't yet produced my first settler. By exploring I learned their land was LARGER (on the other side of the choke point) and probably BETTER than mine.

The PLAN
If I built cities north of the mountains, they wouldn't be productive, at least until Republic - they're too far away. (Playing with CRP Rings really emphasizes that distance is NOT linear on civ maps - 5 inches of horizontal screen space on my monitor takes you out past the center of a 3rd tile for a distance of 4.5=4, but 5 inches of vertical spaces takes you out SEVEN tiles for a distance of 10.5=10.

If I take out India and expand there, I can move my palace and have a better, stronger empire. If I DON'T take out India, their better larger land will lead to them becoming stronger than me. It's inevitable, particularly since they already have twice as many cities. This couldn't be allowed to continue. I decided to take out the Indians ASAP. I'd produce warriors and to a mass Swordsman upgrade.

This influenced my trading plan (do not give him warrior code early on, and pay him a high price for Iron Working, since he's the first to get it), my production plan - warriors to become swords, etc. I also am sure to block the choke point early.

By 2030 the Russians have 6 cities, Dutch have 5, Vikings have 5, Carthage has 5, Persia has 6, Ottomans have 6, and Indians have 8. I have only 4 and 1 settler.

Ghandi demands horseback riding in 1675. We're not ready for war, but we turn him down because he has no stack nearby and we'll be ready soon. He doesn't declare war. I begin creating swordsman out of warriors in 1650 BC. India has 11 cities. I get in an embassy and final tech trade before war with India.

I had decided to go Writing MIN, Code of Laws MAX, Philosophy MAX, to get Republic. When I met the Vikings they had Writing and I had 17 turns to go, so I traded for it. Later I failed to notice when Carthage picks up Writing and they went straight for Philosophy...

In 1525 Carthage discovers Philosophy, 2 turns before I was scheduled to. This toasts my science plan for the Republic slingshot. I finish philosophy and start Republic on min, and the whole world seems to come to a screeching halt in science (though maybe that's because each turn is taking so long to play).

At this point, I should still be sort-of happy, I'm up 2 techs on the closest civ, 3 techs on 2 civs, 4 techs on 2 civs and 5 techs on 2 civs. However, Republic being delayed 50 turns is so costly I can't imagine it - and it's 50 turns away even on 80% science.

I decide to console myself by killing the Indians, which I've long been planning. In 1500 we declare and send 6 swords for Jaipur and 4 for Karachi both west of the choke point. Jaipur is not so far from Delhi, our next target. We've monitored the Indian Iron and they haven't connected it, although they've got a worker roading it now. Our lookout warrior (outside Indian territory when we declared) makes slaves of the those workers and fortifies next turn on the iron.

In 1475 we destroy Jaipur and Karachi. We head for Delhi. In 1425 India kills my warrior on their iron and gets his slaves back.

The Indians were producing 2 wonders but stopped building both over time.

In 1400 I produce a dromon. I immediately see barbs and disband in order to avoid winning a fight with them. Again - the cost of the loss of Republic is incalculable.

In 1325 Delhi falls to the mighty Byzantine Swordsmen. I take Madras in 1200.

In 975 BC I use a damaged elite swordsman to attack a redlined spear in Bangalore, taking the city and creating GREAT LEADER Justinian!

My army is spent and spread out, so now is the time for peace, anyway. I take 2 cities (Lahore and Chit-something) + Construction and around 94 gold for peace. The indians now have 5 cities in the south and I have a new empire and a way to move my palace...

However, I am producing VERY little culture and falling WAY behind. I preped for the end of the 20 turn cease-fire by building up the military a bit and starting some libraries to address the culture gap. I also build the Statue of Zeus.

We pop a far-off GH during this period and pick up Literature for free. We have a "strong military" compared to everyone but Carthage - against whom we're average.

Persia tried to extort me and declared war at some point, but we never see a persian soldier. Later they pay us for peace, but we enjoy some great reverse war weariness in the mean time.

War with India resumes in 490 BC. It's a little rougher this time, but I make good use of dromons to bombard their coastal cities. We take Hyderbad in 490, Calcutta in 470, India get some fabulour RNG and reduces our forces, slowing the capture of other cities, but we take Bengal in 390, destroy Dacca (on our northern tiny island) in 370, Kolhapur and the final capital remain.

We entered the Middle Ages in 410 after some serious tech trading which left us here:

Civ, Gold, Tech
Ottomans 175 EVEN
Scandanavia 37 down FEUD* LIT CUR MONOTHEI* MONARCHY
Persia 25 down FEUD* LIT POLY CUR MONOTHEI* MONARCHY
Netherlands 14 down FEUD MONOTHEI
Russia 9 down LIT MONOTHEI
Carthage 0 EVEN
India ? down PHIL CODE LIT POLY OTHER <uncertain due to WAR>

[edit - I should make clear that THEY are down these techs, not me]

I have 1569 gold and am:
even with 2 civs
up 2 techs on 2 civs
up 5 techs on 1 civ
up 6 techs on 1 civ
up ? techs on India who's about to go away...

I have 5 lux empire-wide in preparation for anarchy when we revolt for the Republic, which we will discover in 350 BC (but not immediately revolt - want to finish war and may whip some libraries which are almost half done).

I will move the palace to either Lahore or Delhi, I think. Maybe Delhi for palace and adrian for forbidden palace. Not good with new weakened fp placement...

SCIENCE
Our initial plan was to pursue writing at min, then code at max, philosophy at max to get republic for free. This didn't work out - and in the WORST possible way I could imagine.

The great trade of 2800 BC: I trade Alphabet to the Ottomans for Ceremonial Burial, Pottery, Warrior Code, and 9 gold. I have no idea why Osman was willing to offer so much for the Alphabet. Concerned Russia and Ottoman have contact I trade Alphabet and 11 gold for Masonry with the Russians. I am now at par with the Ottoman and Russians and up on India. I think I caught the Ottoman before contact with Russia.

In 2750 I trade Masonry and Pottery for Iron Working and 31 gold. I don't want them to grow faster, and I don't want to trade 2 techs for 1, but this is part of the PLAN - I need IronW to see Iron and get moving on the Indians, so I do it. And I don't want them to have Warrior Code. (I still see civ2 archers in my head...)

I remained tech leader, only occasionally down 1 or 2 techs briefly, until the end of the AA.

I later learn with embassies that other civs don't have as much contact as I'd feared they could with close islands and lots of connecting coastal tiles.

When I meet the Vikings in 2390 they have writing. I'm 17 turns away (on min). They lack the Wheel, Ceremonial Burial, and Iron Working.

SERIOUS FLAW #2 - I work a trade with the Ottomans for Mysticism in order to improve my position to trade with the Vikings, since they have a monopoly on writing and I can't wait 17 more turns. However, this does NOT improve my position because the Vikings lack Ceremonial Burial and you can't trade a dependent tech in the same trade as one of its predecessors.

We trade Iron Working and Ceremonial Burial for Writing - the Vikings should LOVE us. I do end up the tech leader and with 488 of the world's 593 gold this turn. I manage to keep writing from other civs for a long time.

I fail to note the discovery of Writing by Carthage in 1790 BC. I even wrote it in my notes, but wasn't aware. They head straight for philosophy at max or near max sci. I still have 3 turns left on code, so I'm starting out 3 turns behind. I don't make it, though I gain 1 turn on them and finish 2 behind. This is TRAGIC and I have to research republic on min because max is hardly worth it.

In 1725 the Vikings go up Maps, the Indians go up Math, and the Ottomans go up Poly, all on the same turn! in 1625 we perform a series of trades to pick up these 3 techs and obtain most of the worlds gold and maintain my tech leadership - up 2 techs on 2 civs, 3 techs on 3 civs, and 4 techs on 2 civs.

FOREIGN CONTACT

Indian border seen in 3100, contact in 3050 (ctrl-shift-d saved a turn). India was up CerBur, discovered IronW in 2750.
Russians in 2850. Up Pottery and WarCode, Down Alpha. They discover Masonry next turn.
Ottomans 2800. Up Pottery, WC, CerBur
Dutch 2750. I'm up Mas and CerBur on them.
Persian 2430. Up Wheel, down Alpha, Pottery, IronW
Vikings 2390. UP WRITING, down Wheel, CerBur, IronW. The VIKINGS went after WRITING? This messed with the science plan.
Carthaginians 2190. Down Writing and Myst

BARBARIANS
I get a barb warning near Constantinople in 3550 BC. I find a camp with 2 barbs on a hill. I just don't have the units to deal with it, and I'm overly scared of fortified hill barbs on demigod. I leave them be and monitor them with a warrior fortified on the mountain across the river from the barbs (SE), and they grow to a pile of 5 by 2950. Eventually this causes me a problem, but also resolves itself. I still don't know what "angers" them. My fear of barbs is amplified by the fact that I go 0 for 4 against them early on, even losing an archer.

In 1790 I move a worker onto the iron. The barb encampment sees this and kills him in the IBT. This slows my acquisition of iron for the war with India and sets of a barb attack. The warriors throw themselves against my warrior fortified on a mountain across a river. All 5 die.

MILITARY

Paid a lot of unit support early on - it was a while before I got to 4+ cities. I notice the power graph seems to indicate the AI isn't building many units early on - they're depending on their bonus units. I can't compare them to each other, but I can compare them to me and I'm gaining at decent rate, which I wouldn't be if they were cranking out units. This contributes to my belief in THE PLAN.

SERIOUS FLAW #3 - my production schedule was slow to produce workers. Without enough food, needing curraghs to explore, warriors to explore and MP, I just couldn't get them done quickly. My first produced worker didn't come until 2230 BC, next in 1650 BC (which immediately died to barbs), then 1425 BC. Since I kept my cities small this wasn't crippling, but it wasn't fun either.

I build my first Dromon in 1400 BC. I take it south and see barb galleys. I don't have enough movement to escape and if one attacks me, I'm likely to win and enter my golden age in despotism, so I disband the dromon. :( Later I'm able to use them to bombard.

THINGS I LEARNED

I did a LOT of note-taking and planning, and I DO think this really helped. I credit the GK2 Training Day game for this. The game played MUCH slower, unfortunately, I stopped taking detailed (every unit move) notes around 975 BC, but I caught a LOT of things I would have missed, micro-managed more, had good reasons for what I did. Even when I made a mistake it wasn't because of a reflexive play, it was for a "good" reason. When my first settler was built I took a screen shot of my map and played with it in paint - drawing city borders etc - for about an hour before pre-selecting my next several city sites.

Why did I inherit the "Cruel Oppression" unhappiness of the Indian cities for their whipping? I thought they changed the game so that you couldn't whip a city to death and gift it to another empire to send them unhappiness. Why do _I_ get their unhappiness, and shouldn't the people be happy since I'm not the one who whipped them?

I'm not sure if it's been good to keep my cities as small as I have. It's allowed me to use few MPs and keep a high science or tax rate, but I think it may now be slowing my production and commerce. Of course, doing this did let me finally get a decent number of cities and some workers.

I see a lot of other players reached the MA before I did, but they didn't seem to do it with their own booming science, they did it through trade. Why was my world so much slower in science in the mid to late AA? Wars maybe? The Russians and Ottomans fought, as did the Vikings and Carthaginians.

I'm definitely interested in comments and suggestions.

Longasc

Aug 19, 2004, 06:28 AM

Perhaps a little bit more of shrewd trading and early contacts could have helped, but your conquest of India is a great thing, many that tried conquering India regretted it.

You did it, all hail SwedishChef! :worship:

grahamiam

Aug 19, 2004, 06:45 AM

nice :hammer: SwedishChef! you really took the initiative, preventing the indian iron from being hooked up. :thumbsup: I paid a high price for not taking the inititive early enough against india. I nearly lost 2 army's attacking a size 12 dehli which, in my game, had a seemingly endless supply of pikes. luckily, i had knights and they didn't :)

Drazek

Aug 19, 2004, 09:02 AM

I build my first Dromon in 1400 BC. I take it south and see barb galleys. I don't have enough movement to escape and if one attacks me, I'm likely to win and enter my golden age in despotism, so I disband the dromon.

Barbs won't trigger golden age.

Why did I inherit the "Cruel Oppression" unhappiness of the Indian cities for their whipping? I thought they changed the game so that you couldn't whip a city to death and gift it to another empire to send them unhappiness. Why do _I_ get their unhappiness, and shouldn't the people be happy since I'm not the one who whipped them?
It's just one city that gets that unhappiness so trading it wouldn't matter.

I see a lot of other players reached the MA before I did, but they didn't seem to do it with their own booming science, they did it through trade. Why was my world so much slower in science in the mid to late AA? Wars maybe? The Russians and Ottomans fought, as did the Vikings and Carthaginians.

Even on this level, much of scientific research depends on the human. Early MA goners traded well so that they would be the first to enter the MA so that perhaps they could get more techs in deals that way. If you want a quick military win, it can be useful to slow down the tech pace. Looks like you managed to do that well, at least for Indians, but there're lots of other enemies to kill for a military victory, so that's not necessary the best tactics, but remains to be seen. The timing of the tech slow down (so that you get needed techs to kill everyone, they hopefully are backwards) is critical for a great win.

RFHolloway

Aug 23, 2004, 09:33 AM

Techs good - Barbs Bad

It was my first demigod game... and I struggled. but I also executed my best ever trade.

Built Curraghs and got them out early and started making contacts. First contact - down 3 techs and up none! second contact - down 3 techs up none! third contact down 3 techs and up none! (can't afford to buy any either - start sulking). Fouth contact down 2 techs (look again at everything carefully)

By now various monopolies are broken, and I am able to afford one of the techs, that some of the others don't know for 4GPT and 80 G, trade that for CB and pottery and some cash, trade those and some cash for another tech and so on. By the end I was down 4GPT, up 38G and had 5 techs, and the joint tech lead.

I fumbled the ball on philosophy gambit though. Seing barb galleys appear before I had writing I was convinced that someone else had mapmaking. having contacted 6 civs, assumed the 7th one would be ahead so researched phil, hoping to snag COL from them. Was I in for a shock - they didn't have writing! got monarchy from philosophy and draw 3 turns of Anarchy. so not all bad.

Barbs were my downfall. my military was just too weak, I wasted several units fighting barbs, before giving up and letting them take my Gold. Even then I lost 2 workers when the horses started appearing. I have TOZ almost ready to go, by 1000BC but am wondering whether it will be obselete before I build it!

Just as a learning tip (that I learnt the hard way) If you are cash rushing to spend your gold so the barbs don't get it there is no point in doing it in the city that they will attack (they just pillage the job in progress.) I have also had my western choke point ciy flip to India (but I built one city at either end of the choke point so I am still OK)

DJMGator13

Aug 23, 2004, 04:05 PM

I got a real late start on this one, hopefully I'llbe able to finish it before the deadline.

QSC Summary

only 6 cities
Built: SoZ, 2 barracks, 1 granary, 1 temple and 1 harbor
City size equal 16, territory equals 85 tiles

16 units: 1 settler, 2 workers, 5 warriors, 2 spears, 3 AC, 2 curragh and 1 slave worker
lost units: 1 curragh
killed units: 1 Bgalley and 9 Bhorses

Techs
ALPHA - 4000BC started
BW - 4000BC started
POT - 2950BC trade
WC - 2510BC trade
MAS - 2510BC trade
CB - 2510BC trade
WHEEL - 2510BC trade
IW - 2430BC trade
MYST - 2430BC trade
HBR - 2430BC trade
WRIT - 1990BC trade
MATH - 1990BC trade
POLY - 1830BC trade
MAPM - 1550BC trade
PHIL - 1450BC researched
CONST - 1450BC free from PHIL
COL - 1225BC trade
MONARCHY - 1175BC trade
CURR - in 9 turns (although I slowed it by a few turns to take out the Bcamp before going into the MA)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Opening thoughts:
Placement & speed of meeting our neighbors is going to be important in this game since our two techs are the most known ones. We have 4 scientific civs and 4 seafaring civs in the game as well. Speculation that the NW NW tile is a cow in pregame discussion. With seafaring we want to build cities on the coast for the commerce bonus. Can uncover the most fog with a West move of the worker and then decide where to move settler.

4000 BC
Worker1 west spies cow & 2 BG's (also spy a white tip (a game?) SW SW of worker & potentially something NW NW of worker)
Settler SW to keep city on coast and towards potential game tile

3950 BC
Worker1 west spies game and ivory and 3rd BG
Can grab cattle, game & 2 BG's settling here
Found CONSTANTINOPLE (uncovering another BG) should be able to get a 4 turn settler/warrior factory at size 5 with granary - set to Curragh
Sci to 10% WRIT in 50

3700BC
CONST curragh (Driftwood) => curragh

3400BC
CONST curragh (Raft) => warrior

3250BC
CONST warrior => curragh

3100BC
CONST curragh (Float) => warrior

3050BC
CONTACT: NET 2 cities, 10 gold, up POT, Wheel & CB down nothing - no trades possible

3000BC
CONST warrior2 => settler

2950BC
CONTACT: SCN 3 cities, 45gold, up MAS, POT, WHEEL & WC down nothing -
TRADE: Buy POT from NET for 90gold & 1 gpt
switch CONST from settler to granary - need factory running or I'm dead

2750BC
CONTACT: CART 3 cities, 0gold, up MAS, WC & CB, down nothing

2590BC
CONST to size 4 lux to 20%
Float NW (spies purple border on my island) N W

IBT - IND warrior moves into view & they control the chokepoint

2550BC
CONTACT: IND 5 cities, 60 gold, up MAS & CB - nothing to trade
Raft S S SW (spies brownish border)

IBT - could be a short game - IND has 4 warriors heading thru the chokepoint

2510BC
CONTACT: RUS 5 cities, 10 gold, up MAS & WC, down Alpha
TRADE: Alpha to RUS for WC, MAS & 10 gold
TRADE: WC to IND for CB & 60gold
TRADE: MAS & 55 gold to NET for Wheel
TRADE: sell CB to SCN for 45 gold
Tech parity with everyone except NET who are up Myst & HBR

2470BC
IND has me worried - I change CONST from settler to spear

2430BC
CONTACT: OTTO 4 citie, 0 gold, up Myst, down nothing
TRADE: Wheel to IND for IW
TRADE: IW and 20 gold to NET for HBR
TRADE: IW to RUS for MYST and 60 gold
At tech parity with NET and up at least 1 on everyone else

IBT to 2310BC - 4 IND warriors go past my worker - game my not be as short as I thought

2230BC
CONST warrior3 => spear in 4 - should put city back to size 5 and able to do 4 turn settler only until I finish improvements for 10spt

2070BC
found Adrianople on choke point set to worker

IBT to 1990BC - SCN & CART both learn WRIT (I'm 7 turns from it) / IND learned Math

1990BC
TRADE: Myst & HBR to IND for MATH
TRADE: Math to SCN for WRIT & 32gold
TRADE: Sell MATH to NET for 295gold
adjust sci to 50% PHIL in 30 instead of 50

1950BC
CONST settler => SoZ (should take me about 17 or 18 turns to build - use Oracle as prebuild until I hook up ivory)

IBT to 1830BC - OTTO & RUS learn POLY / light green border appears near Float

1830BC
TRADE: WRIT & MATH to OTTO for POLY & 82gold
found CAESAREA set to warrior
CONTACT: PER 7 cities, 85gold, down Alpha, POT & MYST - they must not know anyone else
I have meet everyone in the game now
TRADE: sell MYST to PER for 85gold
I have tech lead on everyone except for OTTO, who I'm even with

IBT to 1550BC - SCN learns MapM

1550BC
road bringing ivory to CONST is complete - lux down to 20% & sci to 60% still in 4
TRADE: POLY & 172gold to SCN for MAPM
switch Oracle prebuild to SoZ in Const. due in 3

IBT to 1475BC - after I complete SoZ - SCN completes Colossus

1475BC
CONST completes SoZ => settler

IBT - 5 Bgalleys sail up next to Float

1450BC
learn PHIL - set to CONST (50 turn tech vrs. COL or LIT at 29 turns) - get CONST
sci to 70% CURR in 40 at +1gpt - I'm gambling that 1 of the 5 civs capable of learning CoL is working on CoL - besides in the 40 turns it will take to learn I'll have 8 AC from SoZ.

1425BC
CONST settler => settler (mm back to +5 food)

1400BC
TRADE: sell PHIL to SCN for 224 gold
TRADE: sell PHIL to OTTO for 79 gold
TRADE: sell PHIL to NET for 50 gold
TRADE: sell WRIT to IND for 38gold & a worker

1350BC
produce first AC
CONST settler => barracks - now at size5 +5food +10spt now have 4 turn warrior/settler factory need barracks first for the AC’s

IBT to 1275BC - RUS completes the Pyramid / OTTO completes Oracle

1275BC
found NICAEA set to barracks

IBT - CART complete Lighthouse / NET completes MoM

1250BC
CONST barracks => settler
ADRIANOPLE barracks => temple (for cultural)
found VARNA set to Dromon (disperses Bcamp 1 barb left)

IBT - RUS learns CoL / OTTO learn CoL & MONARCHY

1225BC
TRADE: CONST to RUS for CoL & 69gold
TRADE: sell POLY to NET for 50gold

1175BC
CONST settler => warrior
TRADE: CONST & MapM to IND for MONA

IBT to 1100BC - SCN demands CONST (they only had 39gold wasn't worth selling) - not sure which victory condition to pursue yet so I give in to the demand / Float is killed by Bgalley about 5 tiles N of CONST

1100BC
Discover one problem from playing at 3am, I forgot to revolt after trading for Monarchy. Do it now and draw a 3 turn period, maybe not that bad of a mistake.

IBT - IND completes Temple of Artemis

1075BC
founds SMYRNA set to barracks

IBT - RUS completes Hanging Gardens / OTTO complete Great Wall

1025BC
become a Monarchy
mm all cities / left lux at 20% and sci at 80% Curr in 10 at -6gpt
switch Varna to Harbor and rush it
rush temple in Adrianople (on IND border)

IBT - 10 Bhorse on north end of island by AC1 (confirmed I'm still in tech lead - this is not MA barb uprising)

1000BC
CONST settler => warrior
ADRIANOPLE temple => dromon
VARNA harbor => dromon

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rest of AA
IBT to 975BC - IND demands 60gold - I give it for now, but will have it back soon.
950BC buy LIT from RUS for ivory & 363gold
900BC found HERACLEA
IBT to 875BC defeat the 10Bhorses with a single AC on a hill
775BC found TREBIZOND
IBT to 750BC PER demands Ivory - I refuse they declare war
750BC - learn CURR & enter MA & receive Feudalism

End the AA with 8 cities and I am in the tech lead. I am the only one in MA so I should be able to completely “light” my territory before the massive barb uprising. I sacrificed some early cities for SoZ but I now have 6 AC and I am about to upgrade some of my warriors to swords. My plan is to hit IND hard before they get War Elephants. I may even raze initial towns because I can replace them so fast. With only spears in defense I’m hoping to make a big dent in IND quickly.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DJM_C03_02.jpg