After botching previous city placement polls, I hope this one turns out okay. Due to time constraints (why do we have a chat so early anyway?) this poll will be open until the beginning of the chat, about 42 hours. DO NOT VOTE AFTER THE CHAT BEGINS. Here is the discussion, and here is the picture detailing where the city locations are: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/DG5_city2_1.jpg

PS: Special thanks to cyc for his advice and inspiration in getting this poll set up correctly.

Posted originally by Noldodan.

Smooth move changing the letters around from the original map in the discussion thread. Even though you finally got a ledgible map up, the change of letters will probably score you at least a couple of wrong votes. :rolleyes:

Smooth move changing the letters around from the original map in the discussion thread. Even though you finally got a ledgible map up, the change of letters will probably score you at least a couple of wrong votes. :rolleyes:

Both our comments need to be directed at Noldodan and not Rik. ;)

I agree, the quality of the image is deplorable, and it's bordering on criminal to poll something in different terms than it was discussed under. Also with so many options, we will have potential for a tie -- better get a ruling on whether the minister gets to break ties before you try it.

I would like every proposal backed in this thread by a 3-5 line short presentation, and to include the tilevalues of 6-12 tiles. This could be done by the proposers or by the Domestic, I think it is somehow important that we have more background on why here.

Cut and paste if you already made a valid argument, counted the tiles.

Discussion (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=95659&page=4) links. (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=96270) Stupid JPEG format losing quality...

Both our comments need to be directed at Noldodan and not Rik. ;)

I agree, the quality of the image is deplorable, and it's bordering on criminal to poll something in different terms than it was discussed under. Also with so many options, we will have potential for a tie -- better get a ruling on whether the minister gets to break ties before you try it.

I was talking to Noldodan. There's no way I could blame RM for this.

B will encompase all the gems, as well as some minable hills and mountains and irrigatable desert. So I say we go for that.

And I think describing each spot with a paragraph would only satisfy one person, while confusing all the others. ;)

The experiences so far in the game has convinced me that we need a governmental reform, as the superministry Domestic has too many tasks for one person to handle, and that I see that some other ministries overlap and do the same work.

Enough with the one-tile-inland cities! Future trade and military strategy hang in the balance! Vote C! :mad:

Right on! Go D! A true powerhouse builder. Good for expansion and/or military.

I'm going for cyc's proposal because it will be great production city and it will make us to built temple earlier to get gems. It seems we go early for monarchy so those hills will be useful.
Other locations are simply sad.
Still i would rather go risky to the north becuase there could be floods but position D will do it.
AND lets do something to bring that warrior back closer to capital so we can discover more land we can settle,and not some 1000+miles away territory where he is now. Our warrior already found horses and many hills for possible iron, i think he finished his job there.
Post opinions to scouting thread or make a new thread (what is military advisor doing btw?).

D only gets on gem. And since we'll probably found cities to the east and north for a while, there's a good chance when we get to founding a city to get the rest (plus that horse) it'll be someone else's.

And there are two people in domestic. The only problem we have is with starting polls. ;)

Well, at least Site D will only have one useless coastal tile instead of 3, like our capital. So I guess this is a slight improvement.

Regardless, 1-tile-inland cities are borne of short-sightedness as they actually steal away from building potential cities inland, as well as diminish coastal control of our great nation. Having not learned our first lesson, we are about to build two of them. In a row. As our opening strategy.

How are people from other lands going to come visit our capital? How do we plan to send troops to a port city from our capital, or even defend ourselves by sea? Don't you feel that our capital city should be in close proximity to a harbor since it is founde so close to the coast(but yet so far away)?

Sure, Site D has great numbers, but think like a city planner would think. Do you really think that city surveyors would deny themselves a coastal location twice?. Do you really think that a nation with dreams of grandeur would not think to have convenient port access from their most influential city? We need to think aesthetically in this game as well as optimally. We are playing on Monarch, for cryin' out loud. We are assured victory.

Don't ignore these things, or else we may be thinking true to form after all. Because at this time, we are really only people with sticks that grunt. Our city planning is certainly starting to illustrate that.

I say G. We immediately get one of the gems, and get more when the borders expand. It lays on the coast so we can have some trade acces. There are plains . forests, and hills nearby so we will have some growth and a very good industry base. This would also make a good fortress city for us. We also won't overlap any tiles with the capital and get maximum land tile usage.

Since the intention is to follow the Iron Working and Monarchy Path, we are not going overseas anytime soon. It also looks like we are on a seriously large continents western coast, a 3 billion year planet, dry and warm. This means we are going to see considerable
massives of mountains, large deserts some jungle and so on, with critical river locations to secure. Japanatica seems to develop into two regions, the central region of Zarnia, and the future highlands of Province 2. which probably will have all our strategic resources and luxuries, horses, iron and gems. After City D, it makes sense to develop Yotsubishi in the far south and "Crazy Horse" in order to get horses and gems.
By the time we found "Crazy Horse" we will have researched iron working, which is the best tech right now. This enables better settlement.

So city planning must be seen in our tech route strategy context. If we needed a port now, I would have voted G, if we needed Gems now, I would have voted for Yotsubishi, and for horses, farther south. Certainly, Crazy Horse will be a coastal city.

It's a matter of future planning. There could be unforseen circumstances that would lead us to get an ocean port up and running, like maybe trading for a resource.

From the look of the coast, it seems it would actually be better to build a port on the bay to the north, because it would be closer to the capital and all. Plus losing the city would not be such a disaster, since we wouldn't also lose gems.

south of H. but thats my opinion anyway.

positions C and H are also ok

after much thought, i believe D will be the best location

Seriously people, we cannot afford to keep building cities one tile away from the coast. In my view, C is the best option for the coastal city and F if we actually want to make good progress. (After F, we can put a city one tile south of H eventually).

With a fast look, I voted for B. C is a good place too.

H, we can build C or something after that to get a coastal city.

*runs from the angry guards*

Enough with the one-tile-inland cities! Future trade and military strategy hang in the balance! Vote C! :mad:
My thoughts exactly. :goodjob: We need to build a coastal city. In my thinking, C would be best and then you could put a city where the warrior is placed right now. That would give us options to all the resources their. Even though this is about one city, forward planning is good to get as many resource as possible. Well these are my thoughts of a lowly citizen. :)
NOTE: The underline is my emphasis and not in the original quote.

:) I'm just a lowly citizen in this discussion too. My Office holds no weight here.

As I've stated before, we need a strong second city that will help us in many ways. Getting the diamond, helping with Culture, helping with expansion, and helping with the military are all ways in which Site D will be able to help. Site C will flounder (no pun intended) for thousands of years before any substantial growth and production are detected. We can build a coastal city to the North of the Capital. Coastal tiles are evident there.

I am speaking from strictly a strategic viewpoint. Since the Capital had landed better than it did, I would not have recommended City C. However, with the limited information we have, and I still want Yotsubishi to be built (Epimethius proposal), C is the only option that enables us to transfer tiles from Fanatikku to the new city, and still keep the diamond. since we may go overseas until the end of term one, we would be a powerhouse in resources, so we can fight wars effectively with the future samurais, on land and on sea, and not close out our reach, limited to land only.
Remember, term 1 is there to build for the 2nd term.


Yours sincerely

Honorable Minister of Domestic Affairs, and fellow Citizens:

Why must we limit ourselves to what is close, when we know that if we go a little further, we can ensure we have the resources we need to help our defense?

I hereby propose the City Site 1 Tile NW of the South Warrior in the Picture on the page. This will allow us to immediately secure the horses in our territory and allow us at least 1 Gems within the City Radius once we have a Temple, as well as have a coastal port, but only 1 Coastal port.

I know, there are many tiles not discovered yet within this city radius. But the maximum number of possible grasslands near this city is 2, and both of these in the Post-Temple Radius.

Phase 1: Pre-Temple: (Natural, Developed, Post-Despot)
Top 2 Tiles:
Tile 1: Horses (1,1,1; 1,2,2; 1,3,2)
Tile 2: Connecting Road (1,1,0; 1,2,1; 1,3,1)
Phase 1 Total: 2,2,1; 2,4,3; 2,6,3.
Added with IIRC 2,1,2 for the city itself: 4,3,3; 4,5,5; 4,7,5.

The reason I am limiting these first 2 phases to 2 tiles is because this site will only support a Size 2 City prior to Harbor.

Phase 2: Between Temple and Harbor:
Top 2 Tiles:
Tile 1: Horses (1,1,1; 1,2,2; 1,3,2)
Tile 2: Riverside Hill (1,1,1; 1,2,2; 1,3,2)

Phase 3: Harbor until Aquaduct:
Tile 1: Horses (1,1,1; 1,2,2; 1,3,2)
Tiles 2-5: Coastline Tiles. (2,0,2, same Post-Despotism)
(Again, we can only see 3, and know of a 4th by a coastline near a mountain, but I also think there is likely a 5th.)
Tile 6: Riverside Hill (1,1,1; 1,2,2; 1,3,2)

After Aquaduct, if there are no Grasslands, then we work as many coasts as we can until we hit a happiness cap, i.e. we get our first unhappy. At that point, we move the unhappy to the Riverside Hill. Of course, Grasslands and Whales can preempt this tile order.

And, yes, corruption is a concern. But not as much as it usually would be. The reason is: this will only be our 2nd city. This city will gain more corruption when we found more cities, but originally, I would be surprized if we had corruption before either Harbor or Government Change. And I'd say we would sooner have a new city before a Harbor or a revolution.

Again, I urge Japanatica to be Pro-Active. Let us settle farther and fill in after. Let us not risk losing what our South Scout has found!

Methinks we need to see more before being able to make a wise decision...

Methinks we need to see more before being able to make a wise decision...
What do you want? The settler is built right now, we don't have time to explore more unless we want to make it a 3-turn chat.

We don't have time to explore. We can travel far later. Now is the time for decision.

C is the right choice. We will have immediate access to the gems just near it. We will have mountains and hills for increased production. We will have grassland nearby for precious food. Also, it is on the sea, we can build ships as soon as possible that way. Then we can explore the coast and very likely meet other nations. Another pro with C is the possibility of the Colosus, once the city is up and running

It seems as if Site C is getting some last-minute support. This is great news, I say!

Let us forgo short term gains for a long term future. My job as Trade Leader is practically useless if we don't have a port to barter from. Our so-close-to-the-coast capital may as well be behind a wall if we force future tourists to brave our treacherous hills just to reach it.

Are we preparing an isolationist strategy already, or do we want to utilize our coastal origin near the equator as a gateway to the world?

Follow me, brave Japanaticans. Let's push just a bit farther west. The sea beckons......... :wavey:

Vote C! So Japan can adapt if there is no iron!!

D is on the Sea? Are you sure you're using the same letters as the Domestic Minister? On this map, D is 1 tile away. C is on the Sea.

Speaking of the Ministry, I request that the Honorable Minister rate my proposal. I know that I will get a low score for proposing an area with so many tiles unexplored, but I think we should move in on the Horses ASAP.

We don't have time to explore. We can travel far later. Now is the time for decision.

D is the right choice. We will have immediate access to the gems just near it. We will have mountains and hills for increased production. We will have grassland nearby for precious food. Also, it is on the sea, we can build ships as soon as possible that way. Then we can explore the coast and very likely meet other nations. Another pro with D is the possibility of the Colosus, once the city is up and running

For the record, snipelfritz is singing the praises of Site C, as that is what he voted for.

You're right I was talking about C the whole time. I'll edit that right away.

Edit: Sorry for the confusion everybody.

Hmm... our starting spot looks oddly familiar to DG1. I vote A

I have realized that if there is no Iron nearby, we need to hedge the risk by having a ready overseas colonization base nearby the capital. However, this does not rock with my doctrinal support of iron working and the monarchy route, but this gives a security vent given the chance we are militarily challenged, there is no iron and we need to find resources overseas. The inhospitality of Japanatica, except for the bountiful Zarnian basin, around the Fanatical River, is bordered by the Apathetic in the west, the Arid Zona in the East, the Gochibishi Massives in the South, with the barren Ume Highlands farther south, the Promised Desert in the Southeast and the Shady Fields in the North - in fact we need to diversify our risk. It is now very critical to know if we have iron or not, as that will be decisive to all our strategies for the next 4000 years.

With this, I officially ask to change from D to C in the polls, as I see no other recourse, and put an end to 1 tile distance from ocean cities! Japan will one day become a naval power, and the city will be the first step! I am sorry for having been in doubt on this one, but at least I admit I had committed a mistake. The same apply to the Ringi system the children of Japanatica was not ready for it in this age of despotism! :)

With this, I officially ask to change from D to C in the polls, as I see no other recourse, and put an end to 1 tile distance from ocean cities!

With a vote change for FA Minister Provolution, this is now a 12-12 race.

This is great news, Provolution, and I thank you for your 11th hour support. Hopefully, the Japanatican people will answer the call of our nation's diplomats and join us in our support for Site C.

Vote changed as requested by Prov. (Vote was for "D", but changed to "C").

(Note: I had to ask TF if he could change the options so it would come out clean - i.e., no extra/deficient votes).

Im going for C. We need a position from which we can begin using a navy to explore. This will be a severe problem for us later if we do not have a port there as it will not have much corruption.

Chieftess

Arigatoo gozaima****a :)

Besides, I trimmed down my signature as I think you requested to two lines, and I could not see any other violations I could have conducted in here compared to others.

Upon reviewing the city sites once again and seeing as my vote for site E is losing horribly, I hereby change my vote to one for site D. We will still eventually gain the gems, and it is a good site, with lots of production and lots of food. We don't need a port city yet! Map Making is thousands of years away, time that we should be using to build up our infrastructure.

Poll changes per request of Noldy.

The Chat Has Begun. Do Not Vote.

If the public can't verify that a vote has been changed (by seeing the voters name move to the option they changed to), then vote changing in public polls is just as unreliable as in secret polls.

P.S. Don't vote! CT, please close this poll.

Poll closed

Arigatoo gozaima****a :)

I think that Chieftess says we should do it like Arigatoo gozaimashi'ta.

Poll closed

Ack! And on a tie, too!

So... did we merely decide to go South in the General Direction of Sites C and D and try for a Tie-break when we got to site D? Or did the Honorable Noldodan decide? Or his Honor the President?

So... did we merely decide to go South in the General Direction of Sites C and D and try for a Tie-break when we got to site D? Or did the Honorable Noldodan decide? Or his Honor the President?
Well, since the chat was cut off at 1 turn, the city was not founded. In this poll, sites C and D were tied at 13-13, so now we're having a repoll.

Thank you for closing the poll RM. I realized after I posted the above statement that the vote counts differ in both the first choice of the vote changer and the option they changed to. So I guess it is more reliable than I first thought. Payno attention to that other post. ;)

Got a pm from Isabelle asking to change her vote from D to C. While the poll is closed, and this would break the tie, the DP should still use his descretion.

After giving it some consideration, I would like to change my vote on this poll from D to C. Would this be possible? ;(

If this PM was sent after the turnchat was started, then the request should be considered null and void.

But, if the PM was sent before the turnchat... then someone somewhere messed up.

Chieftess, SD3 is correct here. This poll was conducted during certain time constraints and only thos results gleaned during thos times are valid. I appreciate both you and Isabelle's (love that name) effort to help the situation, the above move is illegal.

The results of this poll stand as tied between C and D.

I also suggest that Noldodan folows his heart and makes a decision, as we have seen enough polls from that side, and I would much rather prefer an executive decision.
The polls has eroded so much of the mandate of the Ministers, it is beyond a motivational
problem for each minister, also a system problem. As this is a democracygame, there is still some leadership, and that is only the legal leadership.

Curse my inexplicable 2 day internet ...break.

... Curse it to hell!

Couldn't we simply have a run off poll starting now with three options: C, D, abstain?

It's the way it should be if we have time (and we have some, untill friday)

Couldn't we simply have a run off poll starting now with three options: C, D, abstain?

It's the way it should be if we have time (and we have some, untill friday)

As I've stated elsewhere, that decision is up to Noldodan completely.

Edited for Change in language. If you are posting to protest my use of the word "would not be a Runoff", I accept your protest by default.

IF we have another Poll, it should NOT be a Runoff. The deadlock between C and D assumed basically an Empty neighborhood or Only Barbs, by my understanding. It did not take into account the possibility of other civs in the area. (Which I do not blame Noldo or anyone for.)

The only question in my mind is "Should the Deadlock, and Noldodan's response to it, stand given these new circumstances?" (And, if not, what should we do now?)

Actually, that would probably make a good Judicial Review. I'll see you in the Judicial Hut.