This always puzzled me: Why is Apollo Program the only wonder to do with space? Shouldn't the only space wonder be the first flight into space? (Yuri Gagarin 12 April 1961 for those who don't know ;) ) I realize that Civ 1 was built on the edge of the Cold War era, but now we are told the Cold War is over. So why not make 1st Flight into Space the only space wonder? Or is the first step on the Moon more important than the first step into space?!!

I'm making a poll in this thread to see what you think. I ask everyone who votes in it justify his/her vote in this thread. Thank you!

One more thing: please try to stick to science and other things that do not turn this thread into another Cold War debate. Merci :)...

I think this would reflect reality:

If the Americans do space flight before anyone else, it should be a wonder of the world. Otherwise, the moon landing will be a wonder of the world. I'm sure that was part of the thought process in Civ 3, so might as well go all the way in Civ 4.

4 votes and 2 posts. Please write justifications. I know there are more Americans on this forum, but numbers should not make a difference in this issue, only argumented votes.

Having lived through those times, I think the moon landing was truly a wonder. Probably one of the top five events of the 20th century.

More important than the first flight into space?

I also think, the first space flight was at least as important than the first moon landing.
Maybe Sputnik could also be a small or great wonder!

In order to place anything (Sputnik, a dog (Sputnik II), or a person) into Earth orbit, one just needed to develop enough thrust to get the object to orbital speed. In order to recover that object, you needed to have a reentry system. Life support was a nice feature as well. I'm not trying to down play the importance of Gagarin's flight and the USSR's achievement. It was huge and it changed the world forever. It is well represented in Civ by the Space Flight technology.

However, if one is to consider what it took to get to the moon and back, you truly have a wonder. Yes you needed to have more powerful rockets, but you also needed vastly improved navigational systems, computer systems (rather crude by today's standards... 64 bit memory! Yes there isn't a kilo, mega, or giga in front of the word.) that didn't take up an entire building, and a lunar lander. Then you had to execute. We learned how precarious the entire endeavor was in April 1970 with Apollo 13.

Though i agree that haveing the Apollo Program as the only space wonder is a bit Western, I think that if you think about it you will understand. Though there was a race to get to space the overall race became a race to the moon in 61 with Kennedy's speech, so if you really think about it they used who won that race and put that as the space program in the game besides the fact that getting into low orbit isnt as much of an accomplishment as standing on The Moon.

I put that both should be in it. The Russians got the first satelite and human into space and, IMHO, should be recognized for that. However, as was mentioned earlier, the Apollo program requires much more engineering, tech, research, and shear will-power to succeed. Not to mention the ability to hit a relitively small opening at the right angle and speed so as not to bounce off or burn up. I think that if both are implimented that the Apollo program should require that the other one (whatever they call it) be built before it.

Actually I think it would be more North American. If there is a complaint with wonders being dominated by one "culture" it would be Europe. With the exception of Sun-Tzu, all of the Middle Ages wonders are European.

Neil Armstrong or Yuri Gagarin? And I though the cold war was over- then again space is a bit chilly.

Space Flight was the breakthrough but unfortunately in the light of planting a man on the moon Sputnik loses out because it's not as specactular and it also doesn't take the technology to it's natural conclusion. Probably won't again until a person steps onto Martian soil. In that way the lunar landing is more of a show case for space flight- something amazing and immediately recognizable. I wasn't alive then but I can identify with the images of the astronuats on the moon planting flags, jumping around and yet have no corresponding image of Yuri Gargarin except possibly for a round space ship with long spikey things. After all Wonders of the World should have a certain awe factor about them and technology aside the thought of walking on the moon just has it that edge.

I think that the Apollo Program was apropriate in Civ3 because of what it did. It allowed you to start constructing the Spaceship.

However, I think that possibly a more relavent "space Wonder" would be the ISS though.

A lot of people misunderstand how subtle western-centricism can be. It's not about who wins, but who defines the victory conditions.

I hate to put this bluntly but ITS A WESTERN MADE GAME!!!! It is suppose to appeal to WESTERN players not Far East, Not Eastern European, But WESTERN. Though I agree that there are great things that have been done by the Far East and Eastern European Cultures that is not who this game is suppose to appeal to. So there my rant is done:gripe: [pissed] :aargh: :suicide:

And as it every occured to you that maybe not all westerners are so obsessive about bellybutton-watching and self-patting-the-back as some?

I'm a westerner, but as someone with an inkling of knowledge in the field of history, it grates on my nerves to see a game that's so obviously unbalanced toward the western world, western values and so forth.

Someone can admire and respect the eastern cultures (more so than the western culture, even) while still being a westerner.

We're not asking for the game to drop its western aspect, mind you - we're asking for a game that take a broader approach, KEEPING western culture, but adding asian, african, etc culture in more ways than simply token names here and there for units and wonders, WHICH IS WHAT THINGS ARE LIKE NOW.

Even if most of you agree and perhaps even me agree with you the game makers are not going to even get a little more asian african or any other

I think you are reading too much into the western influence. The function of the wonder is to allow you to build spaceship parts to travel to Alpha Centauri. So right off the bat, it doesn't totally make sense why this should be represented with a real life space wonder. But since it is, the Apollo program isn't that bad of a choice as it is arguably the biggest space accomplishment ever, at least at the time of civ1.

I don't have any against the previous space accomplishments. The question is, what should other space wonders do if they were implemented?

correct me if im wrong bt is the civ game like many other games mainly influenced by american opinion? therefore they're gona put their actions first above the rest of the world as they are the 'best country in the world' no offence to any americans here bt steven speilburg does the same in his movies by making america play more important roles than history recollects.

anyway back to the subject at hand i think Gagarin project would be more suitable as it is the bigger (sorry to quote) giant leap for mankind as it showed that it was possible for people to travel in space - obviously the first step.sorry bt i clicked on the apollo project cos im thick so it should be one more vote for yuri :D

Colonel - way I see it, my responsibility is to make the designers (who do visit this board) aware that I would like some non-western-stuff in Civ IV.

Of course that doesn't mean that they'll do it. They might not - or maybe they'll try to make a little effort in that direction. But chances they'll do such a thing are inexistant if no one ever discuss the matters - whereas if we discuss the matter they will at least know that not everyone agree with Civilization's West-o-centric take on history being all that fun.

What they do once they're aware is their business. But making them aware of what we'd like to see in Civ IV is our business.

I voted yes on apollo simply because I don't realy care about this one issue. Also, it's a plain fact that America is the only nation to land a human beeing on the moon (though China is planing to take a shot at it in about 2010) so why not give them this wonder?

This Idea was suggested in another wonder forum, but I find it applies here as well. Give some small wonders a generric name in the civopedia and then assign them a name once built depending on which nation builds them.
for example: Builld 'space program' or 'space launch' or 'moon landing'
-If Amerrica builds it, it becomes the apollo program,
-If Russia builds it, it becomes Yuri Gagarin's space flight,
and so on and so forth.
the only problem is, not every civ in civ existed through the whole game so certain civs would have no names for wonders. in this case, they could just revert bact to the generic name.

Just think if Russia got there first: "One small step for man, fone Giant leap for SOVIET UNION!!" [dance] :beer: [party] :beer: [dance]
:band: :rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

If the purpose of the wonder is still to enable construction of the alpha centauri space ship it seems to me the moon landing is more suitable. Only after struggling to get to the moon were we really able to confidently travel into space. It's sortof a stepping stone into the rest of space. Now, I only say that if the choice is between the two. Really it seems neither should enable the Alpha Centauri spaceship. Both of them should be wonders, but neither of them really allowed us to create complex inter solar system spacecraft.

The problem with a game that is western-centric has little to do with political correctness. I don't really care for that crap, myself.

My problem is the game just always ends up feeling repetitive. Whether I'm playing as the Zulus or the Chinese, I feel like I'm jumping through Rome, Europe, and America's hurdles.

I think the appeal in the game for everyone who picks it up -- whether they decide to keep playing it or not -- is the idea that they could play through history and watch it play out in really surprising and unexpected ways.

The Apollo program takes away from that. Apollo program feels like America's big space accomplishment, not mankind's first space accomplishment. I'm not saying that because it has a famous name, either.

"First man in space" feels like the real first accomplishment, the real trailblazer, landmark achievement. You don't even have to know that it was done by the Soviets to know that it feels like something special. No amount of TV marketing necessary to make "First Man in Space" feel like a larger giant step than landing on the moon. Even landing on Mars doesn't make that huge jump like being the first to crack open space.

So when the Zulus have the first man in space, you feel like you're rewriting history... not jumping through America's hoops.

And as for those who say "it won't happen", then 90% of the people on this forum should shut their mouths. It's not a question of whether or not it will happen, but whether anyone recognizes an opportunity to make the game more interesting and that spreads ...

The apollo mission versus the first space flight is just one little example, really.

I don't have any against the previous space accomplishments. The question is, what should other space wonders do if they were implemented?

As I mentioned earlier I think the ISS would be a better choice than The Apollo Program for being able to build a Ship to go to Alpha Centari. If you have ever played SMAC it would be even more appearent since it required several diffrent "Factions" working together much like the ISS.

(on a side note, I think it would be cool to have a cooperative victory where you have to build an ISS of sorts. Let me know what you think.)

There is one more achievement of good old mother russia:

The MIR station, the permanent residence in space... For industrial and technological purposes this means more then the first man in space / landing on the moon.

The ability to conduct scientific experiments in space without gravity is a great boon for science. Various aspects of science, biology, electronics, quantum physics, etc, all benefit from experiments in space.

Perhaps more wonders...?

Ciao...