As promised, the starting screenshot for GOTM 34. Look like a nice starting position? :evil:

Yeahh, it looks good. We have the same color as the red wine. :lol:

Don't be fooled by the colour! I'll tell you all the civ tomorrow. :)

Please ainwood don't place China as our neighbour again. At the moment i have no tactic to beat them. :crazyeye:

I see game SE, but where is the cow ;) .

Move Settler SE/E to the coast and pick up the Wines and BG on expansion? Or is this just another trick to fool us into not moving much?

[Edit] Or is there Game hidden in one of those forests...?

Neil. :cool:

I see game SE, but where is the cow ;) .

You have better eyes than me! But if there is Game there, then a SE move is on the cards for sure.

Neil. :cool:

I had a look zoomed in, and there isn't any game. Here is a shot from SGOTM2 with Game, horns visible:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/GameHornszoomed.JPG

Here is the shot of this start, no horns visible:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/Game.jpg

I had a look zoomed in, and there isn't any game.

Too bad then I have to revise my strategy :( .
So it's a conservative worker SW, settler SE if no cow lurks.
Other wise I would have started with worker E.

EDIT:
On the other side the coastal access would also be nice for a second town.
To the west could also be a good location for the capital.

Plains north and northeast, by the looks of it... I may attempt to pull the worker west or southwest to see if there is anything that strikes my fancy. And if not, it looks like I may go with ainwood's rather evil suggestion to settle-in-place. May Heaven have mercy on my soul... :)

And if not, it looks like I may go with ainwood's rather evil suggestion to settle-in-place. May Heaven have mercy on my soul... :)
Settling in place is not a good idea IMO.
You have many shields but not much food. Note the plain wines cannot be irrigated for additional food in Despotism. They just serve the same purpose as a BG.
You are blocking coastal access for other good cities (if this really is a coast).
So either free the coast by going west or go for the coast with the capital.

...it looks like I may go with ainwood's rather evil suggestion to settle-in-place. May Heaven have mercy on my soul...

I would give you a :rotfl:, except that your statement is pure truth, so instead you get a :( .

Worker SE for a look-see is my guess for first move.

Reveals the game, the cow, fresh water lake, and fish. ;)

Settling in place is not a good idea IMO.
You have many shields but not much food. Note the plain wines cannot be irrigated for additional food in Despotism. They just serve the same purpose as a BG.
You are blocking coastal access for other good cities (if this really is a coast).
So either free the coast by going west or go for the coast with the capital.

At least looking at the number of shields that can be grabbed, this may be a decent way to get a 20k win going. Besides, as you already remarked, there may not be a coast over there anyway... it may be a lake. I guess we'll find out what happens once more squares are uncovered...

There is a startling lack of good grassland all the way around this map. Depending on the barbarians, some early workers may be extremely imperative no matter the direction you take.

Rethorical questions:

Is that a real evil leer by ainwood, a "fake us out" evil leer, or a Dirty-Harry style "Is this a Monarch game with goodies just around the corner or a game with no iron or horses on this huge continent game? In all the excitement, I clean forgot. Do you feel lucky, PUNK!" leer?

At least looking at the number of shields that can be grabbed, this may be a decent way to get a 20k win going.

20K would make a coast even more desireable and you would also want to grab the southern hill


There is a startling lack of good grassland all the way around this map. Depending on the barbarians, some early workers may be extremely imperative no matter the direction you take.
I have a totally different impression. There is a lot of grass SW. The wines can be worked with 2f 1s 2g even before improved. Only food is missing and that could be SW.

I have a totally different impression. There is a lot of grass SW. The wines can be worked with 2f 1s 2g even before improved. Only food is missing and that could be SW.

Also located SW is at least one mountain. I'm not an experienced fog-gazer, but there could be more lurking down there as well... When Ainwood gives some more information about the map, we can speculate as to the amounts of everything to the southwest.

And as I look at the map, this is extremely similar to starts I've had when I started on arid and 3 billion-year-old worlds. I'm curious if this bears out when we get that info...

I think for maximum exploration, the worker should go W, N, or E. E will uncover the water and tell us if it's salt or fresh, and also uncover 7+ tiles. N and W will uncover at least 5 tiles (more if there are hills or mountains beyond those 5). Moving E is problematic if it doesn't show anything good because the worker will have to move 2 more steps back to a good tile to work. W will show some of the grassland and see if there is more grass and river that way. N is going to uncover more plains, and puts the worker on a workable tile, but I believe ainwood said this game will be on Monarchy (think it was in the COTM/GOTM difficulty thread), so we won't need the lux connected until we grow to size 3.

Having said all that, I think I probably will actually move the worker E, just because it uncovers more fog. If I don't see anything I will likely move the settler W, especially if the water turns out to be coast (to allow more distance for coastal towns in RCP ring). This will also put more river tiles in the capital radius. Then the worker will probably head for the BG (SW,W to uncover one more tile).

I'll move the worker SW, because if I'm moving my Settler it will be to the coast and the first tile I'll want to work is the BG. The Settler will still go SE.

That puts the worker on the wines in time for border expansion, unless we're Industrious :rolleyes:

Neil. :cool:

It is a deity level with no horses and iron around (and do not dream about cattle) on a small pangaea map with many rivals. So many people complained about COTM3. I think someone (lets not use names:-)) may want to demonstrate that things can be worse :-)
...The best strategy is not to build any cities, but run run run....

The advantage of the area we see is that it has a lot of shields to build barracks and units with. Settling on site gives us the BG and we can chop and irrigate, as well as keeping us on the river, letting us grow past 6 without Construction. Sending the worker to BG first will expose the southern area--maybe there will be more grassland.

I was thinking of going west but that could force our units to cross rivers a lot, which is a waste befoe we get Engineering (i.e., the quicker travel time on roads do not apply for crossing rivers till Engineeering)

We're playing PTW, so we can't launch boats till we discover Map Making, so I think coastal sites will be less important in the early going.

ainwood, like cracker before him, tends to give tough positions on Monarch and below. I expect to learn Warrior Code and start building Archers as soon as possible.

The advantage of the area we see is that it has a lot of shields to build barracks and units with. Settling on site gives us the BG and we can chop and irrigate, as well as keeping us on the river, letting us grow past 6 without Construction. Sending the worker to BG first will expose the southern area--maybe there will be more grassland.

I was thinking of going west but that could force our units to cross rivers a lot, which is a waste befoe we get Engineering (i.e., the quicker travel time on roads do not apply for crossing rivers till Engineeering)



The BG is not as important initially, the wines are better. If only mined they are already as good as the BG mined and roaded.
So if settling in place you should first mine a wine.
But still I think moving the settler is better in the long run. If going W you don't loose any of the strong tiles. From what we see it looks like we could have a nice tight core with very strong cities. The only downside could be losing a strong tile in the fog. So one (or even two) worker moves may be justified.
The influence of rivers on moving will anyways only be seen, when you placed your further cities. It can turn out that it is the same or better, when moving.

I'm thinking about worker NW and if nothing interesting shows up settler W.

Without knowing what tribe we are, just a general discussion on wanting pottery for a granary is the probably research start, unless there are a couple of expansionist AI in the game.

As for game level, this could be a regent to give all of us who struggled on COTM 3 something to feel better about.

I'm hoping this is a builder game as after SGOTM 3, COTM3 & a couple of SG's I'm in, I'm getting tired of playing whack the AI, even when going for a space victory (Mursilis rides again)

There's a lot of gold around here. So many tiles are adjacent to rivers and the wines are a bonus.

This might be slightly off-topic; should you be able to play PTW from the C3C CD? I thought PTW came with C3C, but evey time I try to launch PTW, it asks for a PTW disk.

Wierd - are you using a new exe or the old PTW exe?

On Topic - I guess moving the worker SW in search of food is better, though I hate to found my capital on a coast.

This might be slightly off-topic; should you be able to play PTW from the C3C CD? I thought PTW came with C3C, but evey time I try to launch PTW, it asks for a PTW disk.

Which did you install last? Mine works with C3C CD. Did you reinstall PTW at some point? The only other thing I can think of is did you install them both to the same path (i.e. "Civilization III")?

ON TOPIC:
I tend to favor settling W. If I move the worker NW I don't see as much but I can get straight to work. However, there looks like grass E->NE, so maybe worker E and then Settler W if nothing good shows.

This might be slightly off-topic; should you be able to play PTW from the C3C CD? I thought PTW came with C3C, but evey time I try to launch PTW, it asks for a PTW disk.
I've been using the C3C disk to play PTW. I open up an Explore window, go to the Civ3PTW directory, and start the Civilization3X application (I think that's the name). No starting video - comes right up to the main PTW menu.

This might be slightly off-topic; should you be able to play PTW from the C3C CD? I thought PTW came with C3C, but evey time I try to launch PTW, it asks for a PTW disk.

I had the same problem, I uninstalled PtW then reinstalled with the Conquest disc. Then it worked.

@ Randy: Did the C3C disk contain the latest PTW patch, or did you download it?

Don't be fooled by the colour! I'll tell you all the civ tomorrow. :)

We're waiting patiently, really! :drool:

Would it be annoying to just give a clue? (Expansionist) :)

Yes :D

Would it help if I begged?

Probably not. ;)

zulu

Would it be annoying to just give a clue? (Expansionist) :)

Well, that changes things a bit. I'm thinking scout S,E. Then worker N. And assuming nothing interesting after either of those moves, settler W. Then worker SW to mine/road wine, and then to BG. Although hopefully uncovering that much fog in turn 1 will find SOMETHING nice that will change things.

Probably not. ;)

z...


thanks!
That means we will have GA early, I guess. And we need to behave aggressively.

Never mind --- didn't see the whispered name.

Looks like researching pottery is no longer an issue. Ainwood wouldn't be so cruel to put us on an island with the Zulu, so it's either Continents or Panagea, which suits the Impis well. Hopefully, there will be a food bonus nearby to setup a settler factory.

Not sure about research now either The Wheel for Chariots; Alphabet to lead to Writing; Bronze Working for Impis; Maybe Ceremonial Burial (probably the cheapest available) if no religious in the game.

First builds will be a scout or two then either a granary or a settler.

Khhmm....Zulu.... and wasted GA......
I have a feeling it is going to be a monarch class game, or isn't it?

Yogurt, YoGURT, YOGURT! I HATE YOGURT! (spaceballs)

We're expansionist but all the nearby GH's are removed, aren't they? :cry:

Hey, there are only 2 units showing in the start sceen! :eek:

Would you rather have a worker or a scout?

Hey, there are only 2 units showing in the start sceen! :eek:

Would you rather have a worker or a scout?

I.... Um...... Hmm....... "accidentally hit the 'd' button before I took the screenshot".



Yeah - that's sounds almost plausible...

Early GA? Oddly enough my last random game ended up as Zulu. I've just entered the MA, in a Republic, about to boot the inevitable Inca (hey, it's C3C...) off MY continent (after letting them build me the Pyramids and Lighthouse, of course), and still haven't triggered my GA. On Monarch. So if an incompetent-at-best player like me can make it that far without triggering my GA....

Neil. :cool:

I agree with Eldar, that avoiding an early GA is doable with the Zulu. Actually it's easier than with a swordsman UU like Rome or Persia. Just by building scouts for exploration and warriors for MP (and later upgrading), you'll be able to explore and have a viable swordsman attack force and still be able to save your GA until the early MA when all those yummy wonders are available. I'm thinking about a Wonder Triggered GA using Colossus/Great Lighthouse & Sun Tzu's to kick it off.

Zulu: Militaristic & Expansionists

UU: Impi A1 D2 M2 - fast moving defensive unit

In GOTM32 with Aztecs, I was able to avoid an early GA by building Spearmen. So I guess this time I will have to build warriors and upgrade to Swordmem for early defense.

At least with the scout we have a better chance to finding the breadcrumbs. Let's hope there are some breadcrumbs.

... but I believe ainwood said this game will be on Monarchy (think it was in the COTM/GOTM difficulty thread), ...
Do we know it is going to be Monarch? I only remember ainwood saying it wouldn't be Diety. I am assuming that it won't be Emperor again. It could be Regent or Monarch.

Smells like a lot of free techs to me. Like the Hittite game. 3 scouts out of the gate I'm thinking.

I hope its on Regent or Monarch, I cant handle anything higher, maybe emperor

I had the same problem, I uninstalled PtW then reinstalled with the Conquest disc. Then it worked.
This seems to be the solution. Or just running off the PtW CD. Txs for everybody's suggestions.

If you want to run PTW from the Conquests disk and need directions on how to do it go HERE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=77419). Scroll down to post #6 for complete instructions.

@ Denyd,dvandenburg:

Indeed, building warriors/swords (and later horses) instead of Impis is the way forward. I built a grand total of 2 Impis before Feudalism - now, where's an Incan Archer when you want one...?

Neil. :cool:

@ Randy: Did the C3C disk contain the latest PTW patch, or did you download it?
It had the latest patch.

Aww, I was wondering what's all this talk about Zulus and I had to go back to Ainwood's posts and still didn't understand. Finally I noticed light gray zulu text. I have green forum theme and it was really hard to see.

Zulus make the start much easier. I really didn't know what to do with just a settler and a worker because the start pic was so open that you could move to any direction. Well, I don't like coast for the capital so I'm probably not moving east. Maybe scout south to the hill and worker west. But there's still river going north and I would like to follow it as well, but plains aren't so inviting.

I.... Um...... Hmm....... "accidentally hit the 'd' button before I took the screenshot".


And do you have saved the game before or after pressing the 'd' button ...

I play this one AW and limit to OCC on regent, 3CC on monarch, 5CC on emperor. I have two fears either size is large/huge or Pangaea map.

Very likely I meet my first GOTM defeat ;)

And do you have saved the game before or after pressing the 'd' button ...
Did you see the following line in that same post by ainwood? (in grey text):
Yeah - that's sounds almost plausible...

I think this is an example of ainwood's "sense of humour" :lol:. What it probably means is that there will be the normal number of units at the start, and that the screenshot was changed just to keep us all guessing.

Zulu finally, I guessed wrong too many times when I picked Zulu. :lol:

Do I like them? No! But still the expansionist trait is kinda fun, so if there's any luck with huts I go for space. And trigger GA in Modern Age with a retarded Impi.

I most like move W inland (dunno if that's a lake or sea, and won't take any chances)
Roading both wines before mining them will give me a boast in commerce and research. After that? I have no idea.

If you ever say Zulu, sometime the time comes you are right. :lol:

If you ever say Zulu, sometime the time comes you are right. :lol:

:D:

This time there wasn't a Pre-pre-game discussion. But I would've picked Zulu for sure. :scan:

If you want to run PTW from the Conquests disk and need directions on how to do it go HERE (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=77419). Scroll down to post #6 for complete instructions.
Thanks zagnut. I assume I'll also have to update C3C to 1.22 after the reinstall and also reinstall any graphics mods (terrain etc.)?

Roading both wines before mining them will give me a boast in commerce and research. After that? I have no idea.
You don't need to road the wines, they are already 2 gold with the river.
Which brings up the question, why Ainwood gives us such an extreme good commerce start. Maybe we are alone after all on an island with exactly zero huts for the scouts.

Ok, I see the hidden text now - just hightlight the area like you want to copy it. Very devious - what's next, subliminal messages? You will move your settler 5 spaces....

Zulu: Militaristic + Expansionist UU: Impi (1/2/2) replaces warrior.

This is one lame civ. It simply removes the benefits of useful traits and UU's. Players who count on these things will have a hard time.

Rant on expansionist:

OK, this trait is the worst of the bunch. The only benefit is the scout unit for grabbing GH's and map exploration. Assuming you're not on an island, the map knowledge and contacts are nice. By far the biggest possible boost is from GH's, if barbs are on. By the end of the Ancient age the scouts have outlived their usefulness and you are stuck with a 1-trait civ. Of course the randomness of the GH benefits must be removed from GOTM, so we are reduced to map/contact benefits.

Rant on Impi:

The impi is a 2-move spearman. The retreat ability is an extra benefit, but there is no real offence capability against anything other than warriors. That means you must pump out impis ASAP and go attack your neighbors before they build spears. Of course if your neighbor already has BronzeWorking or has Jaguar Warriors then forget it. If you do defer your expansion for an attack then you will expend you GA with only a handful of towns making impis. Does this sound like a great idea to you?

You could also count the Impi as a unit with which it's easy to avoid an early GA, like gozpel said. There are ways to make an obsolete unit win a battle whenever you like, and Impi's will never be a compulsory part of your SoD, so the odds to 'accidentally' trigger a GA are kinda slim. ;)

Impis are most useful when used in conjunction with Horsemen and/or Swordsmen. I wouldn't suggest trying to fight any other civ with an army made up of just Impis, but they offer very good protection for Horsemen since both can move two spaces. Even though Swordsmen also have 2 defense, you don't want the enemy attacking your Swordsmen. In this situation Impis prove quite useful. They can either follow right on top of Swordsmen to guard them on their way to the city gates, or you can send them ahead a space to soften the resistance (that will invariably attack if they have a chance). When sent ahead, Impis are useful whether they win or lose a fight. If they win the fight, you can just move your Swordsmen up. If they lose, they retreat and the attacker moves forward, hopefully damaged. This leaves them open to a Swordsman counterattack. The free retreat itself is also nice for the same reasons that retreat is nice for Knights. It gives you a chance to heal your defenders and reuse them, giving you the chance to build attack units or city improvments instead of replenishing defensive units (who tend to be quite slow and hard to get to the battlefield).

The extremely early GA could be seen as a downfall by those who like to time one in the middle ages. If I'm playing as the Zulu I don't mine an early GA though. I can easily pump out 25-30 Swordsmen during this early GA, giving me a huge boost in my early warfare even at Emperor level. If you're playing as Zulu I'd suggest going on a very early conquest of your neighbors at least and of the whole world at best. This is where their strength lies: the early attack. I personally think they're the best civ for dominating the game through military means.

Ok, there are ways of salvaging the impi, but the best civ for conquest?

The mil/indust chinese can beat the zulu in productivity and get a better UU to boot! (Rider = 3 move knight)

If you have to defer use of your UU to avoid a GA then it is not a good unit in the first place. If you can build any of the good offensive UU's then you want to use them immediately - immortal, samuri, riders, sipahi, cossack or war elephant.

I know, the elephant is just a knight built w/o iron. Sometimes it's better to build a bunch and upgrade to cav before triggering GA.

...
If you have to defer use of your UU to avoid a GA then it is not a good unit in the first place. ...

The use of this particular unit lays in its early speed, which is nice in combination with expansionist. Vive la difference is what I say. ;)

...

Zulu: Militaristic + Expansionist UU: Impi (1/2/2) replaces warrior.

...
Actually, the Impi replaces the Spearman.

I'm not big into building defensive units; a fast spearman doesn't thrill me, but it would make for a small mobile defense force for cities connectec by roads.

Also, a fast unit that costs 20 to build doesn't sound as good as a scout which only costs 10.

Main benefit of Impi (IMO) is to accompany Horsemen providing defense. The AI uses them to flood you out; they are a potent weapon for pillaging and harassing. You could use them to just pillage the hell out of your neighbors leaving them ripe for your follow up attacks.

I'd prefer to trigger a GA with Wonder's; should try to get Monarchy or Republic as soon as possible for early GA, then go on a rampage.

I haven't finished GOTM33 yet, and I'd really like to see if I can do COTM3, so GOTM34 looks kind of iffy for me. Probably have to do a very limited city build and fast game.

In the 'GOTM/COTM is too Difficult' thread, the discussion points to this being a low level game. Regent (maybe Warlord :eek: ). If so, I wouldn't expect any food bonuses to be evident; they shouldn't be necessary at this level. Also, the Wines spaces mean less Worker turns to get pretty productive spaces; early on all you have to do is mine them (although, you'll want to road them to get the Luxuries). I love high commerce starts; means faster research or lots of cash for upgrade - your choice!

The impi is a 2-move spearman. The retreat ability is an extra benefit, but there is no real offence capability against anything other than warriors. That means you must pump out impis ASAP and go attack your neighbors before they build spears. Of course if your neighbor already has BronzeWorking or has Jaguar Warriors then forget it. If you do defer your expansion for an attack then you will expend you GA with only a handful of towns making impis. Does this sound like a great idea to you?

So far, discussion sounds like impi is the worst UU and Zulu is the worst civ. I disagree. The good thing about impi is that it runs as fast as horseman. Therefore, it is useful to use them in combination with horseman.

So far, discussion sounds like impi is the worst UU and Zulu is the worst civ. I disagree. The good thing about impi is that it runs as fast as horseman. Therefore, it is useful to use them in combination with horseman.
But its really better to hold your GA until much later, when you have more cities and two well developed cores. I'll build a few but hide them until I need to kick off the GA.

Exactly. The UU is reduced to a GA kicker. Meanwhile, other UU's are tearing across the battlefields. For your troubles you get slow workers, reduced commerce, and no cheap culture buildings.

Why would you build an impi to escort a horse when you can just build another horse and kill whatever attacks you?

Impi replaces spear - I stand corrected. That's what I get for copying from the info center. :crazyeye:

Zulus Shaka Zimbabwe Impis (1/2/2) Warrior Militaristic & Expansionist

If the difficulty is Regent (or lower) then I'll stop complaining. (really!)

Don't we normally get the mini-map or level 3 days before release (today)?

We've spent the last 24 hours beating up the Zulu & Impi, so it's time for something else to complain about.

Zulus are probably my least favorite civ of all.. The Impi is basically good for 3 things: Covering horse stacks on offense, killing horses in defense by denying retreat, and allows easier defense shuffle. That last part is only useful in war heavy games.

I'm hoping this is atleast a continent, preferably pangea. One could also hope for lots of room to expand/explore for huts, but I doubt it... The non expansionist civs are usually rather lousy at popping huts, but I'm guessing we have the full package of expansionist civs against us as well ;)

Why would you build an impi to escort a horse when you can just build another horse and kill whatever attacks you?Agreed. And if you don't have horses you are better off building Archers for 20 shields each than Impi. A spear is pretty useless. A fast spear is hardly any better.

There was a SG some time ago where they used the Zulus for an early conquest victory. I've looked but I couldn't find the thread, maybe it was too long ago. :( It was a huge success, BTW, so don't give up on the Impi yet...

^ Impi are good for pillaging missions too (provided you are careful not to trigger an early GA). The militaristic trait is OK in my book, I tend to build lots of rax and wouldn't mind trying my hand at some leader fishing. I am not too crazy about the expansionist trait though, whenever I try it I seem to either get stuck on an island or else I wind up sharing the continent with 2-3 other expansionist civs. I hope we don't get another jungle-packed world, my machette is just about worn out from the last GOTM.

You don't need to road the wines, they are already 2 gold with the river.


Well, we obviously play different styles :) More commerce, quicker research.

Gozpel: I think the point is that the road on the second wine won't add any benefit except for trading. You'll be getting the 1 commerce from the wine and 1 commerce from the river, if you road the wine the 3rd commerce gets eaten by the despotism penalty, so don't waste the worker turns until you are near leaving despotism unless you've got a trading partner for them.

Ainwood: Isn't it time for another bread crumb for us hungry souls??

I could be wrong (and I often am) but I think what Klarius was getting at is that you won't get more than 2 gold under a Despotism government, so roading the Wine tile has no effect straight away that's why it makes sense to mine it first as you'll get the benefit of the extra shield a few turns earlier. Obviously with it being a wine tile we'll want to road it anyway but just not until we need it to deal with unhappy citizens.

OK - some more breadcrumbs.

I've attached the minmap below. :)

Secondly, the extra commerce is because you may choose to do a lot of research yourselves. ;)

I could be wrong (and I often am) but I think what Klarius was getting at is that you won't get more than 2 gold under a Despotism government, so roading the Wine tile has no effect straight away that's why it makes sense to mine it first as you'll get the benefit of the extra shield a few turns earlier. Obviously with it being a wine tile we'll want to road it anyway but just not until we need it to deal with unhappy citizens.
This is correct. Under despotism, any tile producing 3 or more food, shields or gold suffers a 'standard tile penalty' - the food, shield or gold is reduced by one. Base commerce for plains = 0, add a river = 1, add wines = 2. If you then road, you add one commerce (3), but suffer the tile penaly (back to two).

Repbulic gives a commerce bonus of one gold in any tile already producing one, and doesn't have the tile penalty. So, under republic the roading is worthwhile (to give base commerce of 4)

Secondly, the extra commerce is because you may choose to do a lot of research yourselves. ;)

Slow tech pace because there are no nearby civs? Uh oh, sounds like I am stuck with an expansionist civ on a stinking island again! :cry:

OK - some more breadcrumbs.

I've attached the minmap below. :)Let's see... the water to the east is probably coast instead of a lake. Anyone ever see a major landmass cross the mini-map border?

Secondly, the extra commerce is because you may choose to do a lot of research yourselves. ;)And... I'm guessing we are palying on Regent.

Or that could mean we are on an island will have to research MM ourselves before we get any contacts. Let's hope not, that would pretty much waste the expansionist trait. :(

Secondly, the extra commerce is because you may choose to do a lot of research yourselves.

This could mean one of three things:
1. The game is at a lower level and we'll need to drive science
2. We are all alone on an island and will need to research our way off it
3. I've played too much Civ in the last 3 years and my brain is mush

4.) you may choose not to to do a lot of research yourself. :mischief:

Edit: It is a regent game. :)

Oh, we are jumping from really hard levels to the really easy ones.
Once don't we stay at monarch at all the times :rolleyes:

Well, I know I said in the GOTM33 final spoiler I would be skipping this month because of time issues but I just can't pass up a regent attempt at 5CC conquest so I'm going to give it a try. Hopefully I can make some quick progress.

I'll start by moving the scout south to the hill and the worker west. I like to make sure of my start spots given my limited city sites, so I may be moving the settler 1-3 turns. Hopefully with the scout I can make a quick decision. From the hill, my scout will head off west in search of my nearest target...er...neighbor. Here's hoping we aren't on a resource barren island all by ourselves!

Secondly, the extra commerce is because you may choose to do a lot of research yourselves.
4.) you may choose not to to do a lot of research yourself. :mischief:


So we are not on an island (we "...may choose not to do a lot of reserach..." ourselves...") , but other civilizations will be what?... stupid? (we "...may choose to do a lot of research..." ourselves).

At Regent level the AI gets no benefit in research or production (unlike higher levels). So you could be the research king (especially with all the extra commerce a river start gives you), or save your money. The AI doesn't challenge you as much in research at Regent level. (This game will not set any speed records for Spaceship Launch!) So ... yes, the other AI civs will be "stupid" (they prefer the term "slow" :) )

Sounds like :hammer: from the four corners for all again.

Ok, regent! No more complaints from the zulu basher!

Maybe I'll try the predator class.

Regent :( . Slow going tech.
But no need to ever build an Impi.
Golden age can easily be triggered by wonders.
Colossus or Lighthouse first and the GA coming with Leonardo's.
And don't build the Great Wall by accident :D

I'm an idiot... good thing there's an edit function so I can get rid of the evidence... :sad:

Good thing I looked at your post again below the reply text box or I would have answered you. :)

Hmm. Zulus at Regent... Lots of rivers... I'm VERY tempted to try for a 20k victory here. I've never tried before, and I suppose a Regent game is the place to do it. Depending on neighbors, I may well go for an early GA, and in general do a lot of leader farming.

Opening moves: Not completeley decided. I guess it really depends on the geography near the body of water to the NE. The area looks potentially shield rich, but growth may be a problem. I will probably move the scout S to the hill and the worker E towards the body of water. I'm not too concerned about wasting a few turns finding the best opening city sites. I will not use the capital as the 20k city. I would love to have the 20k city on the body of water AND a river.

Good luck to everyone else!

Hergrom

Hey everybody.

I tried playing GOTM 33, but got a crash and couldn't finish it, so I hope this is the first GOTM I submit.

I might be making a newbie mistake and missing something, but all I remember ainwood saying is that it was an expansionistic, and if you look at the colors, The Iraquois are Expansionist and Match the Screenshot color. :eek:

What do you think? I might be wrong. Or maybe would like better to play with the Iraquois than the Zulu.

Hey everybody.

I tried playing GOTM 33, but got a crash and couldn't finish it, so I hope this is the first GOTM I submit.

I might be making a newbie mistake and missing something, but all I remember ainwood saying is that it was an expansionistic, and if you look at the colors, The Iraquois are Expansionist and Match the Screenshot color. :eek:

What do you think? I might be wrong. Or maybe would like better to play with the Iraquois than the Zulu.

It's definitely Zulu. Ainwood posted a while back:

Probably not. ;)

zulu

Highlight the text (or even reply to Ainwood's post, #34 in this thread) and you'll find out that he already told us what the Civ will be.

Good luck nonetheless. :)

Ok, Zulu it is then.

After looking also at the Mini Map, I think we would need to move our expansion towards the NW so I would send the scout W-W to round the forest on NW and see if something interesting comes up.

If we are going to delay the GA and defend ourselves with Warriors I would take into consideration settling in place and take advantage of the defensive bonus from the river surrounding the Capital City that would apply to 6 squares.

What do you think?

I've never been convinced that you need real defence in the early game ... or any time for that matter, so I don't buy the need fo defensive bonus for your capital.

Early on all you need is a warrior in your capital as token discouragement in case a civ wanders by and captures your undefended sole city (Matrix can provide a recent worked example :rolleyes: ). While there's spare space for settlers they'll use that for expansion rather than attack you. You probably want to beat up any approaching barbs during the early game, but that's best done with active defenders like archers or horses outside your cities. If raging barbs are turned on the first real crunch comes with the era change uprising. Building a stack of defenders specifically to handle that event for a couple of turns never seemed a good use of resources to me. You can either take the opportunity to promote some attackers to elites, or just do a damage limitation exercise. It's often best just to let them pillage a small outlying town, making sure you've spent your cash on embassies or techs or whatever so that there's not much for them to take. Either way they are not going to get near your capital if you've built any kind of core around it.

Welcome to CFC and GOTM, iqppfk!! :) I hope your system doesn't crash :( and you are able to submit Gotm34!

I see AlanH has responded in the meantime. This is a Regent level game, so the AI wont have stacks of units lying around waiting for something to do. Early on I'd build and send scouts out, probably two more. Then a Warrior which wont go too far in case I need him. Settler after that for city number 2.

Don't know the Barb setting yet, but early on I'd leave at most a token defense to keep the AI from thinking too hard about attacking you, and to keep the barbs at bay. Later on, I usually take a more offensive appoach; and I generally NEVER build Spearmen; with Impi's as our spearman replacement UU, I might build one eventually to trigger a GA.

I like the nearby rivers, not for defense but for the extra commerce they generate. Movement will be tricky until Engineering is known.

Just a quick recap for the newcomers to the thread (and for us with bad memories)

Tribe: Zulu is Militaristic & Expansionist - UU = Impi (1-2-2) replaces Spearman
Starting Techs: Warrior Code & Pottery with cheaper barracks and more common promotions - also huts are never barbarians
Level: Regent
Location: SE corner of mini-map
Starting spot: With a pair of wines, quite a few rivers, a single visible BG to the SW and lots of plains N & NE, some kind of water to the west, hills & mountains to the SE

What we still don't know:
Map Type & Size
Land Percentage
Number of opponents
World Age & Condition

You're right about early game defense. Even if I don't go all the way down to NO spearmen, something I've been experimenting lately is have a spearman located 1 turn away from 2 cities. That way I can send him to protect any of them in case needed. This should be a lot easier with the movement value of the Impi.

I agree with civ_steve's production plan plus researching BW at max as long as we are in continents or pangea. If we're in islands, I would go straight to Granary, Warrior, Settler while I research Alphabet at 100% to get to MM ASAP.

And I still think about settling in place and put my first citizen to work in one of the vines, taking immediate advantage of the bonus tiles and all the commerce around the rivers. Worker would go NW-Mine-NE-Mine to fully exploit those tiles.

Do the experts have any other advise for a newbie? :D

What we don't know:
Map Type & Size

From the scale of the minimap I'd say size is Standard, with Ainwood running a 1024 x 768 monitor, poor thing.

You're right about early game defense. Even if I don't go all the way down to NO spearmen, something I've been experimenting lately is have a spearman located 1 turn away from 2 cities.Well, if I'm right, what are you building spearmen for? 20 shields buys you an archer who can kill barbs and earn 25 gold per barb camp, or two warriors who can upgrade to something usefully aggressive later. Trust me. Try ZERO spearmen. Throw away that security blanket :D

iqppfk: Welcome to CFC and GOTM

Just a couple of items - save the settler action on the first turn until last, so that you can make your decision based on all possible information. Also on the turn you found your capital, be sure to visit your science advisor and select a tech, you'll get the tech 1 turn earlier than if you wait for the advisor to prompt you for a research topic. And though you probably already know this, strive to get out of Despostism as soon as possible.

AlanH: As for spearmen, I normally start adding them near the end of the AA (while they are cheap) to allow my garrisoning swords to gather and attack an enemy. Saving the 10 shields in building another sword and still having the garrison is important to me. I like to have about 1 spear for each 3-4 cities when the AA ends and upgrade a couple to pikes to add a top of stack defender to my SOD (protects my swords from attacks) and to have a quality defender to my border cities in case an AI unit appears on a hill/mountain nearby.

There is a logic to building only offensive units, especially ones with 2+ moves. If you always have enough troops to kill anything that comes near then a defence force is not necessary.

Also, the AI seems to make DoW decisions based on overall strength, as opposed to tactical deployment weaknesses. That means a strong offensive force deters attacks much better than a defensive force, even if you are pretty well tied up in war. Check your relative status (weak/avg/strong) against other civs in the F3 screen.

Regent zulu on standard map, apparently on the edge of a continent - hmmm - which victory condition should I choose?
:ninja:

If we're in islands, I would go straight to Granary, Warrior, Settler while I research Alphabet at 100% to get to MM ASAP.


This tells me that we are not on an island:


4.) you may choose not to to do a lot of research yourself. :mischief:


Otherwise, I do not know how to inerpretate it.

I took that to mean you could keep the tech pace slow, build up a ton of troops and go beat techs out of the other civs.

:hammer:

The ever popular pointy-stick research method

This does not bode well for Mursillis getting to space quickly. He's got the trifecta of anti-space race events:

1. Regent level, so the AI won't help much beyond the AA with research
2. A non-builder tribe with no cheap buildings (except barracks)
3. No immediate settler factory options to encourage rapid city expansions (make up for quality with quantity)

Add to that non-industrious so workers are slow and no age change science boost, getting to space pre-1600 is going to be a real challenge.

I never ever had a 20K victory, so since we play regent level i will try to get one for myself this time...

I am sure this game will be over in BCs for some of the expert players, giving the fast UU and cheap barracks.... There would be a way to wage fast and deadly war against weak regent level AIs...

still having the garrison is important to me.
With what purpose? By that time you should be heading for Republic - specially a spaceman like Mursillis - so you don't need them for MPs. Surely you don't let the AI come anywhere near your cities, do you? :eek:

I never ever had a 20K victory, so since we play regent level i will try to get one for myself this time...

I am sure this game will be over in BCs for some of the expert players, giving the fast UU and cheap barracks.... There would be a way to wage fast and deadly war against weak regent level AIs...
I'm also thinking this might be a good time to try for my first 20K victory. Anybody have any tips for pursuing a 20K?

AlanH: I only garrison border & coastal cities. Once rails arrive (and until marines are available) I only garrison cities that can be reached in a single turn by the AI and have a mobile strike force to eliminate any attackers before they can reach other cities. Unless the Vikings are in the game, then I have to garrison all coastal cities from the advent of Berserks. I've found that the AI is drawn to start wars when undefended cities are easily within reach. What really complicates this defense method is once rails are around and you are forced to give a ROP to get something you really need. Then you spend the next 20 turns hoping the AI doesn't beeline one of your undefended wonder cities.

I've lived a sheltered existence in a limited range of games, and I guess my style has evolved rather differently from yours so far. I'm sure I'll learn the hard way one day, but so far I've survived and prospered on a policy of building zero defenders.

My policy is always to own my home continent as soon as possible. That involves eliminating the local civs as fast as possible, as soon as I have enough resources to do so. If you take the attack to the AI their offensive troops, such as they are, are too busy countering your attacking force to get around to coming after your cities. I've never seen the Vikings attempt a Berserker amphibious assault, but they've never been a force to reckon with in the GOTMs I've played, and I'm always the aggressor. In any case, the AI is so pathetic at seaborne invasion that a small mobile active defence force is enough to wipe out the typical half-boatload of obsolete units that they land at any time.

I've never felt the need to sell a RoP to a local civ where it could be used against me, and I'm usually the one capturing wonders. I only build them if I get leaders as I wipe the others out.

I really like the Zulu, lately I've played a lot of games with them. The Zulu's best tactic is the very early charge. =)

I think AlanH is 100% correct. I build vary few if any defence. I build all most only warriors, swordsmen or horsemen (late in the AA for upgrade).

Warrior and swordsmen can reach your closest AI easy.

Own the home continent as soon as possible.

I'm also thinking this might be a good time to try for my first 20K victory. Anybody have any tips for pursuing a 20K?
Here's a link to a very useful spreadsheet- I used Greebley/AlanH's for COTM1- very helpful!:
Culture 20k calculator (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SirPleb20KCalculator.zip)
T-Hawk's article (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_1city20k.shtml) in the War Academy also has some good tips. I have really enjoyed the 20K games I've played- it's arguably more like the way Civ 'should' be played :lol:

BTW- I'm not sure if the 20K calc is the same one in AlanH's signature- that's the one I have used :goodjob: I got it from one of SirP's posts...

T-Hawk's article (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_1city20k.shtml) in the War Academy also has some good tips.

Just remember that T-Hawk's article was written for conquests where you can't rush wonders without a SGL. In civ3 you can farm for GLs which can then be used to rush wonders. The militaristic trait helps here as it is easier to get units to elite status. :)

I'm not sure if the 20K calc is the same one in AlanH's signature Your link is to SirPleb's. Mine used a different starting point based on Greebley's structure and doesn't use macros. SirPleb's has been updated for Conquests, but mine hasn't yet. On the positive side mine does handle Anarchy accurately and as far as I know it gives accurate results - it was adapted for use by the gang who played a 5CC 100K SG.

Here's a link to a very useful spreadsheet- I used Greebley/AlanH's for COTM1- very helpful!:
Culture 20k calculator (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads7/SirPleb20KCalculator.zip)
T-Hawk's article (http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_1city20k.shtml) in the War Academy also has some good tips. I have really enjoyed the 20K games I've played- it's arguably more like the way Civ 'should' be played :lol:

BTW- I'm not sure if the 20K calc is the same one in AlanH's signature- that's the one I have used :goodjob: I got it from one of SirP's posts...
Thanks! The article is very helpful, as is the spreadsheet calculator. Anybody have any thoughts on the capital vs. 2nd city as the 20K city, given the difficulty is only Regent? Is the availability of the palace pre-build that critical against such relativley slow AI builds/tech pace?

Anybody have any thoughts on the capital vs. 2nd city as the 20K city, given the difficulty is only Regent? Is the availability of the palace pre-build that critical against such relativley slow AI builds/tech pace?
The palace prebuild ability is unimportant on regent.
You will have more wonders available than you can build by hand.

But there is the FP which gives more culture than the palace. And you can even free jump the palace into your 20k city after you built the FP.

@Ainwood

What was our nationality again? :)

The glorious Zulu, as previously revealed.

Any chance at getting the game this weekend?

Ahhh. I skimmed the posts, and missed the subtle zulu
in Ainwood's post.

Any chance at getting the game this weekend?
Hear! Hear!
The natives...err..Zulus...are getting restless! :D

Sorry, you'll have to wait til the 15th.

Um, isn't the 15th sunday? Does this mean Sunday's been kicked out of the weekend now?

Ok, I vote for Wednesday to take over Sunday's duties then.

Ok it is officially the 15th...Hmmm.. They must need sleep or somthing.

If it can only be released on 'the 15th', we might not see it till midnight tomorrow! Er, today. I'm hoping for this morning.

Edit: Forget about that, I got the times wrong. :(

Edit: Thanks ainwood

Oops! :blush: Sorry - I got mixed up with the time zones. :( Must be because I'm feeling a bit sick today. :(

I post it in an hour or two. :)

Just putting the final touches to the game release page.

FYI, the following bonues / handicaps are used:
Conquest class players: 50 gold + 2 extra scouts
Predator class players: Expansionist trait is turned off.

Hello

I have played COTM but not GOTM. I have CIV 3 Gold. Do i download the PTW version or the CIV 1.29 version save? I thought I had PTW, i don't have a start menu folder, although I do have a PTW folder at
C:\Program Files\Civilization III\Civ3PTW\Civilization3X.exe

thanks All!

I'm not sure what you mean by a Start menu folder.

C:\Program Files\Civilization III\Civ3PTW\Civilization3X.exe is your PtW executable file.You need to

- choose your player class from conquest/open/predator
- download the PtW start file for that class
- put it in your Saves folder
- launch the Civilization3X.exe application
- use Load Game to select and load the downloaded file
- start playing

HTH

I have Civ 3 gold. Use the #1 disk and it will auto play PTW. Put the save where Alan suggested when it comes up go to load file and pull up the save and play away.

Hey thanks all!

Where's the spoiler thread, Mursilis is anxious to report his start.

Just a non-spoiler report on the true randomness of the PRNG: I had a lot (50+) elite victories in the pre-cavalry battles without a single GL.

In my second turn of cavalry warfare (7 elite promotions on turn 1), my first 2 elite wins each produced a GL. Then 30 more elite wins without a GL. I sure glad I hurried that GL to the nearest city and used him right away. So in retrospect 2 GL in 80 Elite wins is about 1 in 40, which is a little high, but not that bad.

Ainwood msutve forgotten about us :(

Where's the spoiler thread, Mursilis is anxious to report his start.

Just a non-spoiler report on the true randomness of the PRNG: I had a lot (50+) elite victories in the pre-cavalry battles without a single GL.

In my second turn of cavalry warfare (7 elite promotions on turn 1), my first 2 elite wins each produced a GL. Then 30 more elite wins without a GL. I sure glad I hurried that GL to the nearest city and used him right away. So in retrospect 2 GL in 80 Elite wins is about 1 in 40, which is a little high, but not that bad.

Pretty much in the same boat. Had 59 elite victories so far, and my 2 GLs were in the same turn, in simaultaneous attacks.

Ainwood msutve forgotten about us :(
:lol: not at all - I open them on the 21st NZ time, 20th rest-of-the-world time. Just got a bit side-tracked publishing the GOTM 33 results this morning. Give me a few more minutes ;)