View Full Version : Conquest 03, Spoiler 2; entering the industrial age

Aug 11, 2004, 02:54 AM
Conquest 03: Spoiler 2.

For those of you who managed to drag your civilization kicking and screaming into the middle ages, now is your opportunity to share the secrests of your success. How did you deal with the rapid expansion of the Indians? Did you secure the marvelous beasts in the north? Did you send your dromons to defend your shores from the neighbours, or to support your own invasions?

To qualify for this spoiler, you need to be researching an industrial age tech (but please don't show screenshots with industrial age or later resources)

Roland Ehnström
Aug 11, 2004, 04:34 AM

Ancient Times (

*** Middle Ages ***

Summary: The Middle Ages is where my game started to go wrong. Basicly, there was nowhere I could expand. India was the strongest civ of all, so a war agaist them was out of question, and I didn't feel strong enough to launch an invasion on anyone else (in hindsight, this may have been a bad decition). As soon as the other civs had made contact with each other, the pace of the tech-race was extreme. I had to divert all my resources into keeping up, and before I knew it we were into the Industrial Age...

690 BC - Nicomedia founded on the island southeast of the eastern continent, very narrowly beating Scandinavia and Carthage to the Horse and Iron!

530 BC - We finally make contact with the Persians. They are backwards.

390 BC - We get Furs, Monarchy, 72 Gold and 4 GPT from the Indians for Engineering and Ivory.

350 BC - Amorium founded by the Horse in the north, just beating the Dutch and the Indians to it, but forcing the town to be placed a bit too far south. And what is worse, the Indian Spearman+Settler fortifies on top of the Horse tile, and we don't dare to tell them to leave.

250 BC - Adrianople completes Forbidden Palace.

210 BC - Ancyra founded south of Heraclea. We trade Monotheism and 1 GPT for The Republic with the Vikings, and our civilization descends into Anarchy.

110 BC - We are a Republic!

100 BC -> 600 AD - Peaceful times. We are completing Libraries and Marketplaces, and then Aqueducts and Universities in our core cities, while trying to keep up in the tech-race. We are constantly thinking about ways to expand our empire - attacking India or invading Persia looking like the most likely options - but the speed of the tech-race is too furious for it to be a likely success.

380 AD - Our discovery of Banking puts us in a good position for trading. We get Chivalry, Invention, Gunpowder and a good amount of gold from The Netherlands, Russia and The Ottomans. The Ottomans are clearly leading the tech-race, ahead of Carthage and India. We are now fourth together with Russia. The Vikings and the Dutch are just behind, while Persia are far behind. We secure a source of Salpeter.

430 AD - We are researching Economics, and are pre-building a Palace in Adrianople to try to get Smith's Trading Company.

570 AD - Oh no, Nicaea deposes our govenor and joins the Indians!

600 AD - We have Military Tradition, but there is still no one to attack, 'cause if I start building a military now, they will have Riflemen before I've finished building a decent number of Cavalry, and probably Infantry before I've taken their first town... Our only hope now is that we will have a monopoly on Oil or Rubber. India have Economics too, and are also building Smith's Trading Company. Ours is 12 turns away.

610 AD - Carthage starts building Smith's Trading Company...

650 AD - The Ottomans and the Vikings have destroyed Russia! The Ottomans are starting to look very strong.

700 AD - Our Ivory is very valuable. For example, The Ottomans give us Wine and 292 Gold for Ivory!

710 AD - We build Smith's Trading Company in Adrianople!

720 AD - The crazy Ottomans give us 41 GPT for the useless knowledge of Economics! WE TRADE ECONOMICS FOR MAGNETISM WITH CARTHAGE AND ENTER THE INDUSTRIAL AGE!

The Ottomans are still leading the tech-race, but we are now a very close second (only trailing some dead-end Middle Age techs), just ahead of Carthage. India and Scandinavia follows, with the Dutch and the Persians left behind. With the help of Smith's Trading Company and our valuable Ivory, we can now run 100% science and still have a balanced budget! Electricity is still 10 turns, though.

-- Roland

Aug 11, 2004, 04:49 AM
Puh! i'm still alive..

I decided fairly quickly that India was beyond me so i've tried to make friends as much as possible. I even send them the odd bribe and join in on alliances (late) when the opponent is close to collapse.

There was a war that wiped out the russians that gave me the tundra island with an extra salpeter to trade, the Indians paid 50gpt for that - it was a very hard decision to give it to them cause I could easily dream up a plan for where the units produced would be going!

Came in a tad bit late versus the vikings, dutch snatched Odense in front of my nose. Decided after this that i'd give the dutch a go, they were not doing to well in the scoreboards & tech race.

In picture attached i'm at war with them together with Persia wiping out their knights with my cavalry. My intent is to build up a second core and jump palace to the Odense peninsula. The leaders are however no where to be seen.

Major issue is that my economy is to small, i just don't produce enough units for war..

Buying techs appears to get even dearer as time goes from an already high price in ancient age. I was hwever suprised to find that a 50 turn music theory research program came first! it was nice to trade that.


Aug 11, 2004, 05:10 AM

I tried to keep AIs cash dry, so I checked every turn until late in the game if they had gpt/gold to trade for my techs. Unfortunately not, they were using everything for their own research. I got some gpt from Persians and they were quite broke, but still managed to upgrade all their defenders to muskets. :(

I decided not to build the Statue of Zeus because it's not worth 200 shields when you are rather quickly going for MT and it would be obsolete.

I started war against India in around 500 BCE. My goal was to take out India and then trade for luxuries to speed up research to MT. Unfortunately, the Indian war was a disaster which dragged until 200 CE. I think this was the reason I didn't achieve my conquest goal as soon as I would have liked.

I also attacked Dutch and allied others against them with a hope to stop their research. My goal was to take their seemingly only iron source. I achieved this in 30 CE before they had Feudalism. :) I got Feudalism in 975 BCE so this was a great success.

My next target was Ottomans with their saltpeter. Unfortunately, I didn't get an attack force until 330 CE when I had cavalries already (MT was researched in 310 CE). The good point was that I had a cavalry army to go to the saltpeter source so I would certainly hold it. Ottoman's only iron source was near saltpeter source so I disconnected it as well. I also shipped some elite MIs there and got THREE leaders with them. They formed more cavalry armies and with them I actually conquerred Ottomans. C3C armies are the decisive factor when doing a fast conquest so leader luck is very important. One leader rushed military academy and I rushed 4 armies with gold.

When I got MT my goal was to take Leonardo's ASAP. Persians had built it and I sent about 20 cavalries and a cavalry army there. After conquerring Leonardo's in 460 CE I quickly upgraded rest of my horsemen and soon I had 60 cavalries.

In 600 CE I had destroyed Ottomans and Persians and I attacked Russians and Carthage. Vikings were reduced to one city after my alliances against them. Russians were a problem, they reached IA during my attacks and I faced some riflemen, but with cavalry armies they are quite easy to kill. I have haven't seen an IA AI for ages in my military games. Russians also had the Great Library. I had shutdown research after MT and I got almost all MA techs except Magnetism. This was a setback, I had to research it myself to transport my armies (instead I would have liked to use the gold for army rushes).

Russia, Carthage and Netherlands were so spread out that I took last of their towns in near last turns which resulted in 780 CE conquest victory. It would have been few turns earlier, but I lost a 6 hitpoint cavalry army to an elite longbowman. I think this game went quite well, except for the Indian war, which significantly slowed down my research and conquest. Another problem was that I couldn't produce horsemen fast enough. The start position was too narrow for a good core. I wonder if an early swordman rush against India and jumping the Palace there would have helped production significantly. In GOTM20 DaveMcW said he was upgrading 10 horsemen a turn (was it during his golden age?). I would have needed such force for a great conquest.

Overall this was an easy game because AI lacked critical resources such as horses and saltpeter. Persians had two saltpeter sources but no iron.

Aug 11, 2004, 06:04 AM

I got monotheism as my free tech, so I started to research theology for good trading. My Dromon I have sent towards Persia circled around the persian island, but only on the second round I found a persian galley. My dromon won the battle and I entered my golden age. I quickly made peace with persia and staid friendly with them for the rest of my game.

Since nobody started to build the great library I bult it after I had all the other infrastructure buildings such as university and cathedral. I only got invention and education from the GL, so it was almost a waste.
More important, I managed to get copernicus for better research.

The rest of the middle ages were heavy trading of techs and luxuries. I knew, that I will need tons of money for later in the game.

India and Carthago were the tech leaders, I was mainly third, researched the some techs first and made good money by trading.
I was falling behind India in the last stages of the middle ages, bought two techs to get into the industrial area.

The Indian troops are not heading for my little city, they are heading South to retake a former Indian city, now controlled by the Dutch (I am best friends with both)

So far, i still think that I have a chance for winning, getting ToE will be a crucial deciding moment.

Aug 11, 2004, 06:50 AM
War with india started late ancient early medieval era, a turn or so before the construction of zeus. feudalism was next. a bit of light trading with my fellow civs got me the other early techs in the era and I also managed to construct the knights templar. Wow lots of free troops there.

With my Ancient Cavalry, Crusaders and Medieval Infantry I crushed India in about what felt like a 1000 years or so. I had failed to controll my entire island, russia and the dutch had the north tip with the horses. I took the russian town in a little war, the dutch was left alone for quite some while, that city later fell to carthage and then later to me.

I was very surprised that not a single town flipped back to the indians even thou it took quite a while to crush them.

I did some remoddling of the indian towns, a few of them where moved a couple of squares. I put my forbidden palace in dehli. Dehli had the Mausoleum.

Carthage appears to be the sumo in the china shop pushing around the others, and me. My little war with india did drag on for a bit so when I was victorious they had already passed education and built all the science wonders and the whole shebang.

They had ju bypassed Bachs for some reason, quick research and prebuild and I had myself a wonder cathedral that keept my whole little despotic land happy.

With resources, happy wonders etc I changed to Republic. Took what felt like forever in the transition, think it was a massive 8turns. Next science goal was to try and grab the Theory of Evolution in the next age, slingshot up to the Hoover to seriously boost my production. All other wonders where built by the others, ok they where pretty much all built by Carthage.

Russia was at war with Otto, the dutch, persia, carthage, russia and myself was at war on and off thru the entire age.

Just as Otto was the russian victim, the vikings where being taken care of by Carthage.

Almost forgot, my golden age was triggered by the construction of the templars, not exactly the trigger I wanted. Me despotic and at war. Wow what a financial and scientific boost that was ... not.

Aug 11, 2004, 09:45 AM
COTM 03 – Byzantines (Open)

Middle Ages (530 BC – 1080 AD)
The Middle Ages? No, no, I don’t recall anything about that. Must have slept through the whole thing. I could just quote Roland E. word-for-word The Middle Ages is where my game started to go wrong. Basically, there was nowhere I could expand. India was the strongest civ of all, so a war against them was out of question, and I didn't feel strong enough to launch an invasion on anyone else (in hindsight, this may have been a bad decision). As soon as the other civs had made contact with each other, the pace of the tech-race was extreme. I had to divert all my resources into keeping up, and before I knew it we were into the Industrial Age... As expected, the Indians attacked almost as soon as I entered the Middle Ages, leaving me no time to switch governments (still in Despotism at this point :( ). With a well-fortified choke point, including Sardica several tiles W of the hills, Gandhi succeeded in killing a lot of his own troops, mostly MI, for little gain. Russia and the Netherlands joined our war against India, but aside from one lone Dutch galley, I never saw any of their troops. With the help of some of the first ACs from the SoZ, I captured Pune, eliminated any Indian troops inside our borders and then sued for peace when India developed Chivalry. Didn’t fancy taking on those War Elephants and wanted to get out of Despotism. I had several elite pikes at that point, but sadly no leaders emerged from the constant slaughter of Indian troops on the walls of Sardica. Didn’t make much use of Dromons either; used them mainly for shore bombardment of troops attacking Sardica. Never saw any Indian naval units, so sadly never got to sink anything and never got a Golden Age. This turned out to be the only war I fought in the Middle Ages and about the only thing of interest that happened to the lowly Byzantine Empire.

I switched to Feudalism (7 turn anarchy) as soon as the war was over, expecting a brief lull and then another DoW by Gandhi, but in the interim, most of the rest of the AIs decided Gandhi was prime target number one and by 490 AD Russia, Persia, Ottomans, Vikings, Carthage and the Dutch were all at war with India. I switched to Republic (6 turns anarchy) as soon as I figured India would be preoccupied for sometime to come. Started to fall significantly behind in the tech race at this point, despite making libraries/universities a priority build in all cities. I tried hard to trade what resources I had for gpt and lux to help free-up funds for research. This included trading the only saltpeter I had a few times when I wasn’t focusing on building/upgrading units. Carthage entered the Industrial Age in 590 AD while I was still only about halfway along the tech tree, buying what I could from Gandhi, and trading with the other sad sack tech folks such as the Dutch. At this point any pretence at further military expansion was just a shame, so switched to Democracy (6 turn anarchy) despite this being my third government change in the era. :mad: The Grand Alliance against India fell apart in 590 AD, leaving the world pretty much as it was before it started. None of the AIs lost any territory as far as I could see and Gandhi remained the only other civ on our continent.

Outlook for the Industrial Age: Not good at all; I’m dead last in almost every possible category and 6-7 techs behind most other civs. The only thing I have going for me is almost everybody is Polite or Gracious towards me and so far no other civ seems to be dominating the world. Best bet for any move up is if I get a resource monopoly on coal, rubber or oil. Still, my goal was survival, and that I’m doing (so far). In hindsight, I missed a golden opportunity by not joining the Grand Alliance against India and putting my AC to good use. I think I was just being too defensive because of the Demigod level. Not getting a GA also hurt, but I still have a few Dromons around so who knows, may be some injured ironclad will feel the wrath of the Byzantine fire ships yet! :D

Aug 11, 2004, 10:41 AM
Open class -

I started the middle ages during my war with India. So far they'd managed to send a lot of swordsmen at my choke-point city (not placed on the hill, but one square north. India had placed a city on the square S of the hill, so in peace time I could only place N of the hill). I got Feudalism for free, started upgrading warriors to MI and finally had enough catapults to make some headway through indian territory. Being the tech leader at this point, I set tech to 0% so I could upgrade units as fast as possible. I managed to raze+rebuild several indian cities, mostly on the strength of a couple armys loaded with Ancient Cavalry and stacks of catapults. But the war dragged on for far too long. Eventually someone sold me chivalry, and soon the Indians had it too; but the AI is pretty predictable with it's mounted units - they only attacked wounded units or workers left undefended by the boarder. A couple of times I'd leave a slave worker out as bait so the Elephants would attack and I could kill them the following round. By the end of the war I had complete control of the starting island and had eliminated the Indians, but I was dead last in Tech, and still in Monarchy. At least I'd gotten 4 armies out of it, 2 filled with ancient cavs and 2 filled with knights. I looked around and realized most of the AI's had resource problems. I could take out the Dutch as they appeared to be without saltpeter and having trouble hooking up their iron. Persia and Carthage lacked Iron, so I was able to repeatedly trade Iron to Carthage for 1 or 2 techs at a time. I finally bought enough techs to be able to research military tradition (the only tech I researched myself outside of the ancient age), and upgraded some dromons to galleys to transport my armies over to the southern tip of the Dutch continent. I was terribly far behind in techs, but so were the dutch, and my first two battles gave me two leaders, so I made quick work of the Dutch, but that gets into the Industrial Age... Where I'm still terribly behind in techs.

It's strange that others reported Carthage being the superpower after India's demise, in my game it was the Ottomans all the way. I think the Ottomans had all resources (iron from the island south of the Dutch) and took some territory from Russia. Carthage killed the Vikings eventually, but it took them a while. Maybe it's just the Iron that makes the difference? In your games, where was Carthage getting it's Iron from?

Aug 11, 2004, 10:53 AM
In your games, where was Carthage getting it's Iron from?
In my game Carthage had iron just north of their capital on the mountains. They easily conquerred resourceless Vikings.

Aug 11, 2004, 05:17 PM
My intent is to build up a second core and jump palace to the Odense peninsula.

jazz_man, the palace jump doesn't work in [c3c]. FP only reduces OCN corruption, now. They changed it somewhere around patch 1.15. Good Luck.

Aug 11, 2004, 05:39 PM
I just suffered a "Humiliating Cultural Loss" to Carthage (100K).
Year = 1955AD
Firaxis Score = 1925
Jason = 998
I'm somewhat embarrassed, but I had fun anyway.

That was a tough map, Ainwood!
I had a lot of fun playing, even though I knew that I was losing horribly. My only shot was an outside chance at a Diplo Win, but Ottoman's never called a vote and I had a tough time keeping the remaining AI Polite towards me anyway.

One thing that was funny was that Carthage was throwing 5 or 6 nukes every couple of turns at the Ottoman's for the last bunch of years. The Ottoman continent was an absolute wasteland.

Another thing that I learned - you only get like half the cutlure when in War Time mode! I had no idea, and did not even notice it until I was in War Time for the 4th or 5th time. I normally never use the War Time mode, but in this game I was in it for EONS because I had such a difficult time taking out the Indians. No wonder my Culture stunk.

Keep up the good work, Ainwood!

Aug 11, 2004, 07:08 PM
Open class (I always forgot to write that!)-

Another somewhat random log, although more detailed than AA log. If you don't read it all, please read the last few entries. I am hoping for some advice on where to go next with the game.

570 - Finally found Persia, though I can't talk to them yet. Next turn, will see where they are.

550 - Persia is backward. The seem to have been hurt by being left out of my trading ring, and lack Polytheism, Philosophy, Lit., and Mathematics. I give them Polytheism for 218 gold.

530 - For the second time, Ottomans make a demand, for the second time I say no, for the second time they declare war. I guess I fogot to write it down earlier. Oops. They made me pay a bit for peace before, which wasn't a big deal since I made it back with tech trading. Now, though, I have no means to get out of war and they do know where I am since I saw an Ottoman galley in the area. I also found Trebizond, where Middelburg used to be.

510 - The Dutch will almost give me a city for peace, maybe because of the Dromon floating around. Maybe I will go pick up a couple archers, which could convince them to give me the city.

470 - Dutch land a swordsmam next to our undefended capital, they know the tables have turned, so I give them polytheism for 6 gold and peace.

430 - 13 gpt gets Russia into the war against the Ottomans. Monotheism brings India in. Hopefully, that will keep both of them occupied for a little while, as I try to build my forces for an eventual attack on India.

410 - A small stack on my border appears to mean that India wants to fight me despite our alliance. It isn't unexpected, but I was hoping to survive to lose by some other condition than conquest.

370 - India did attack. I wasted a turn, but now I have Russia in the fight for 520 gold. Probably spreading her a bit thin. I'll see if I can get Carthage in, though it will probably bankrupt me. I guess it doesn't matter though, if I manage to survive. For 440, Carthage will declare on the Ottomans. Hopefully, that will save me from having to deal with them. The Dutch join against India for Monarchy. So I am at war with the two biggest nations, but I have three allies. We will see how much that helps. I also end up triggering my golden age. It is a complete waste, though, since most spaces are next to rivers and roaded, and there are quite a few bonus grassland. Commerce goes up 2 gpt, and I saw change in the the production of only a half of my cities.

290 - I lost one city (right past the choke), about to lose another (Heraclea, my choke point city on the hill, put inadaquetely defended and no walls), which isn't so bad. But I am kicking myself because I haven't used the Dromon at all effectively. I want to play this game again desperately.

250 - The RNG seems to be taking its revenge. Last game I got rather lucky, and now my dromons are 1 for 4 on the attack, and 0 for 2 on defense. I have lost three archers, two of them while attacking archers, and the other one of them only managed to promote a swordsman. And it looks like I completed SoZ just in time to lose the city to the Indians.

230 - I make peace with the Indians, trading The Republic for Chivalry. Now the Russians and the Dutch are pissed at me, and my reputation is shot. But the Indians were rolling right over me, and I expected to be seeing War Elephants soon.

210 - Somehow, I never really built all that many workers. That has been a huge problem this game, since I don't even have iron hooked up yet. With everything else, especially barbs, I never managed to get all that many workers.

190 - Dutch are angry about me getting peace with India, they ask for ivory, we have ROP so I tell them to take a walk, and they declare. I am hoping I can keep the Dutch away with my dromons, and maybe pick up some faraway Dutch holding. Or that the Dutch will make it quick and painless.

10 BC - The Dutch have evened the score from my taking Middelburg years ago, as I lose Trebizond. I finally had another victorious Dromon elsewhere, but I have yet to have a successful bombard after a dozen or so tries.

70 AD - Not a whole lot has changed. I dropped off a veteran archer and veteran AC on the island southeast of the Dutch mainland. Archer killed another archer and promoted, but the AC lost to a spearman in tundra. Ouch. Still managing to hang on with six cities, but my score is less than a third of India's.

110 - Woo-hoo! I captured Holwerd, on the Dutch main continent. Two AC victories and an archer victory gave me a holding on another continent, and a spot that might give saltpeter. If I make it to Gunpowder, since no one will trade with me now, and Engineering is still coming along. The Dutch have made one landing on my continent, which wasn't a threat. What does concern me is the Indian troops wandering around in my territory. Holwerd might not be a flip threat if the Indians make it my capital.

130 - Amazingly enough, Adrianople, my SoZ city, is a bigger threat to flip to India than Holwerd is to go back to the Dutch, according to the flip calc in Dianthus' MapStat.

150 - I have decided to make the change to Monarchy. My empire isn't really big enough for corruption to be a problem, and the extra commerce would not off set unit costs, since I am so small.

190 - After waiting two more turns, I finally revolt. Four turns isn't so bad, I was just hoping for less with such a tiny empire.

210 - Dutch bring three swordsmen onto Holwerd, more than I can handle, so I kill a couple, am sure that I can't hold it, and jump back on board my Dromon. I decide to learn a bit about getting peace, so I check what it will take for peace. They are close, but need a little something for peace. I abandon Holwerd, and suddenly they are willing to pay. I was never sure how much they took into account the ability to capture a city into the peace process, but this experience along with their early need for payment when they discovered that Constantinople was undefended proved that the situation is important.

280 - I capture Den Helder, on the island southeast of the Dutch. Getting the Dutch in on the war against India way back is paying off in a way, since they are still at war and Indian war elephants are aiding me in my fight, and distracting the Dutch galleys.

300 - Having a small empire [sort of] pays off! Carthage will pay me for ivory in addition to giving me silks. Of course, that and the fact they have completed Copernicus' Observatory means they have Astronomy, and I have yet to learn Theology. Persia and the Dutch are trading and catching up. I am afraid they will zoom right by and I will have nothing to trade.

310 - I can now trade World Maps with Russia, I just noticed, and they have been the slowest among the tech leaders. India gives me theirs and 30 gold for my world map. Carthage gives 56 and their world map, and Russia gives theirs and 5 (all they had). Scandinavia, I discover, doesn't have Navigation yet, and now that I have a world map it seems that Carthage has taken some cities from the Vikings. I am still at war with the Ottomans, but they go from insulted to almost willing to make a deal when I give a world map for peace, so I imagine there is much about the world they do not know.

320 - I abandon Den Helder, as the Dutch drop off a swordsman and two horsemen. I was planning on seeing if I could hold on, especially since an Indian war elephant was in the area and would probably attack, and then I could take out a horseman. But the elite swordsman was some sort of super-swordsman, as it beat both the vet war elephant (all 5 hp) and my elite archer. Once again, the RNG laughs at me. But holding Den Helder wasn't all that important, as its only value was the possibility of oil down the road, and I don't know if I will make it that far.

330 - I capture Leiden, which actually does have value. It sits atop horses, and could have iron inside its boundaries upon expansion.

370 - My last little attack on the Dutch mainland doesn't go so well, as yet again RNG spites me. A couple elite AC are attacked by and lose to regular swordsmen without retreating, so I call back a MI and a few AC and see what the Dutch will give for peace. I have two options. Eindhoven, founded near the ruins of Holwerd, or Harlingen, a small colony on the other side of the world, with an unconnected source of iron. I take Harlingen, which gives me three sources of iron in my territory, though only one is connected and one is inaccesible until I get Astronomy. My Dromons floating around with units are sent to the Ottoman chokepoint. It is the closest target, and if I threaten a city, even with no chance of capturing it, maybe the Ottomans will take peace straight up. At this point, we have been in phony-war for 900 years, the lone action being a failed Dromon attack on an Ottoman galley headed elsewhere, I guess, since I haven't seen anything orange since.

380 - I am disappointed now that my reputation is shot. I could pick up a couple techs for lump sums, but that isn't a long term solution. The bigger problem is that the Indians are now, after signing peace with the Dutch, without a focus for their military might. I would have to pay a huge amount, if they would make any deal at all, to get them into what would be a phony war for me and a real war for them.

420 - I make one of my little AC landings in Ottoman territory, and find that they still want huge payment for peace. Oh well. Interturn, my AC perform admirably, taking a knight and a MI with them, without terrian bonuses (I thought maybe if I landed in a remote place, where there might not be any units around, that would make up for lack of bonus, and I was wrong).

440 - Catherine asked for ivory interturn, I said no. Now I am at war with continent mates the Ottomans and Russians.

450 - The Ottomans threaten Leiden, and it is time to see what it will take for peace. After giving up 159 gold and my World Map, the nearly 1000 year conflict finally ends.

520 - Not much worth mention has happened. India has joined the conflict against the poor Scandinavians, and I have been trying, with little luck, to disconnect Russian resources. But they are willing to accept peace. I am a bit hesitant, since they appear to be rather weak, and without iron. Maybe I can sufficiently scare Catherine so that she'll give me a tech. I am afraid to bring any troops over, though, since Adrianople is still a big flip risk (1.7%) even though it has SoZ, a Library, Marketplace, and Temple. I am working on Cathedral, which should hopefully help.

620 - Well, what was the poor Scandinavians to me a hundred years ago may be an opportunity for the hapless Byzantines. I am at peace with all at this point, while the dogpile against Ragnar has grown. I am thinking that a few knights and a few AC, a force that even I can muster, might be enough to take Trondheim, if I work fast enough, and the Great Library. I have put off researching Education recently to keep this possibility open.

720 - I manage to get Metallurgy before a couple others, but I am holding on to it for a while because I still want to try for GL. I am three turns away from the invasion at this point, of three knights, two AC, and a pikeman. Pretty meager, but I am hoping the Vikings only have spearman and that their defenses have been worn down.

730 - DoW on Scandinavia by the weak Byzantines. We will find out shortly if I have made a huge mistake, or pulled myself back into the tech race.

740 - I make the first drop off, and then bombard. Both are successful (they won't be when it counts, though), and I see that they have an elite pike, and veteran spears underneath.

750 - AC wins without losing an hp against 3/5 hp pike. Vet knight beats vet spear, loses two hp and promotes to elite. AC loses two hp, beats vet spear. Third AC retreats after taking two hp off vet spear, and the spear is still showing. This might actually work, but I have no more units with moves.

760 - Vet knight redlines but defeats 3/4 hp spear (bombard). 3/5 knight retreats, and then vet AC also retreats against 3/4 unfortified spear. Don't do this to me! Finally, 3/5 AC defeats now 2/4 spearman, and Trondheim is mine. Nine resistors means I will really need to abandon it after getting my techs. I wonder if I will manage to get Electricity or Industrialization as my free tech. Wouldn't that be nice!

770 - Didn't get Steam Power from GL, but I did get it as my free tech. For some reason, I didn't get Music Theory either, even though I discovered that five civs had it. I got all other Middle Age techs, as well as Nationalism, Communism, and Medicine. Unfortunately, no money to upgrade. A bit of a brain lapse on my part, but I still had science at 100% the turn before, meaning instead of gaining 134, I gain 4 (getting 48 per turn from trading luxes, and low maintenance and unit costs mean I can research at 100%). I am wondering now whether I should even bother researching since it would take me about 30 turns for any tech at max. I also have a tech advantage on a few other nations, and with cavalry that could translate to some territorial gain.

Aug 12, 2004, 04:53 AM
Conquest class:

Quick summary of Ancient Age (as stated in the first thread):
India attacked early, but lost lots of units at my walled city on the chokepoint w/ hills.
Got an early leader and used the army to pillage their to iron sources. By the end of Ancient AGe, I conquered half of India.

I got feudalism as my free tech and started to build MI and got my second army. With that, it was easy to conquer the rest of India. They didn't build sea units so I still waited for my GoldenAge. I only had SoZ as a wonder. At the beginning of Middle Ages, I was the tech leader.
Since I stopped expanding, russia,carthage and persia managed to found cities on my continent (each of them had 1).
Decided to wait for democracy to make a government switch, but that was somehow wrong because while I was researching democracy at 50 turns, persia, russia and ottomans went by to the Industrial age.

Had two wars with persia in the Middle Ages, but signed Mil.Alliances with russia and ottomans against them.

Managed to conquer three island cities from he dutch, but lost one to persia. Captured one city of Persia on the dutch continent.
At the end of the Middle Ages, I was a few techs behind, I should have build my FP earlier , but I wanted to build it in Delhi, so it lasted about 70 turns to build it.

Russia meanwhile captured the other unfriendly cities on my continent.
But other than that no one could hurt me on my home continent, so I was the one with the largest land area.
When I got in the Industrial Age, I was preparing for war against the dutch, because they were a few techs behind and had no horses, so I thought I could crush them with cavalries.

Persia, Russia and ottomans were really strong but none of them was overpowered so they declared war on each other regularly (or signed MAs) and neutralized each other.

At that point, I had no idea, how to win this game, but now, as I am halfway through the Industrial Age, it looks much better, but I will tell later how it went.

Aug 12, 2004, 07:51 AM
Well..... (demi-god is fun :) ) I have owned my same portion of the island throughout the Ancient Age and Middle Ages. In hte Middle Ages i conquered several small islands from the Vikings.
My Tech pace suffered in the Middle Ages. In the beginning of the Middle Ages i was leading the pack in tech, but by the end i was one of the struggling few. I reached the Industrial Age around 800 AD (could be earlier or later forgot to take notes.....again:( )
By the time i got cavalry which is what i normally use for all my conquest victories that last into this far into the future the Indians had rifleman and other industrial ages defensive units so i knew i had nothing there. I think that the only hope i have is to go for a UN victoy which i will probably not win.
But until then I will try to stay alive :)

Aug 12, 2004, 05:46 PM
[c3c] Open

Spoiler 1: 4000BC to 530BC (

I built 3 middle age wonders in Adrianople: Sistine Chapel, Shakespeare's Theater, and Newton's University.

But my main focus was generating great leaders. I declared on India in 50BC, capturing 2 cities before the flood of war elephants arrived. I set the cities up with pikemen behind city walls, then focused on winning elite battles. I used trebuchets and dromons to weaken enemy units and increase my odds.

After 20 turns of war with India, my alliances expired and I made peace with them. Then I declared on the Dutch, who had 2 towns on the north of my continent. Those fell easily, and I shipped units over to the Dutch continent to continue fishing for leaders. Then the Persians declared when I refused to give them Ivory, so I signed peace with the Dutch.

My first leader made an ancient cavalry army, which was great for picking off elephants. The second rushed the Heroic Epic. The third rushed the Forbidden Palace. I jumped my palace to Adrianople as soon as the FP was built. I got a fourth leader near the end of the middle ages, and saved him for the Military Academy.

I entered the industrial age in 660AD. Adrianople was up to 71cpt, 4072 culture total.

Aug 12, 2004, 07:53 PM
The MA sucked.

I feel so far behind in techs. I switched govs. to monarchy. The only two good things that happened where I took a city from the Dutch and for peace they gave me two cities next to the one I took. The other was I started a war with Russia and I took 3 cities, one island off my cost and 2 on their main land. Russia only has 3 cities left 2 on their main land and 1 island vary far away but yet they can still beat me to every tech. The Persians landed next to my new cities I got from the Dutch. They have been a royal pain this whole game. I ask them to leave they declare war. I stop them on the beach. Later I take one off their main land cities and make peace. The Ottoman keep demanding stuff, I pay do to the two Russian cities on their main land and they have a lot of cities and one I built. (I have never seen culture build as fast as it did in that 3 flipped city). It went from 0 culture to expanding 3 times in less then 20 turns. I cram as many cities as possible on my main land (27 until 2 of the cities I got after the Indian war depose back to India.). this is after I starve them to size 1. I also put temple and lib. in each. I did get a leader in the Russian war I use it for my FP in Karachi, now it will most likely flip back to India.

I’ve been buying all the techs in the MA most around 1000gp. I did get to trade 2 or 3 to Vikings and the Dutch. In 1050 AD I had enough money to buy the last tech but Persia decide to take that city on their main back. So I enter the IA at war with Persia and in last place in tech race. I do have almost 30 cities. I have 30 Cavalry and 13 Ancient Cavalry but every one else has Infantry, did I mention I was a little behind in the tech race. And lastly it get worse for my free tech I got Medicine.

Well I probably lose my first ever civ iii game tonight. I don’t see how someone won’t get the UN vote or a spaceship before I’m half way thru this era.

Note: This is the hardest level I’ve played on c3c. I have won 1 deity tiny world on PtW. I’ve also won a lot of Emperor games all world sizes on PtW. I need more practice with c3c.

Aug 12, 2004, 10:02 PM
Wow that's some dense city placement.

bob rulz
Aug 12, 2004, 11:16 PM
Way too dense. He is severely limiting his production with consistent CxC city placement. And why are the pink guys doing so bad in every game I see?

Aug 13, 2004, 08:06 AM
The "pink guys" are Scandinavia. They are doing bad in probably every game because they have no resources. Yup thats right. Thats the reason why they are getting ripped apart by Carthage in almost every game, including mine :)

Aug 13, 2004, 11:23 AM
I think its more than that. they start on an island suitable for 4 cities and then have to go overseas to start new cities. This is a huge disadvantage because you lose many turns traveling and then youre empire is easily attackable. The lack of resources doesn't help at all though.

Aug 13, 2004, 11:53 PM
This was my first GOTM game and this is my first post. I managed to survive until the industrial age, where I got whooped! I guess I was too intimidated about the difficulty level :( . I stayed alive by being nice to everybody :D but it was not good enough in the long run. I think I should have destroyed the Indians early on :ar15: and tried to keep ahead in the tech race. I think if you destroy a civ, the others respect you more.

Aug 14, 2004, 01:00 AM
Wow that's some dense city placement.

I was going for a culture win and buying all the culture improvements, but it didn't work.

Aug 14, 2004, 09:00 AM
I think its more than that. they start on an island suitable for 4 cities...Yes, it's a horrific starting position. Spoiler 1 link (
Here is my summary. It's nothing to be happy about. Because of a devastating flip I've been forced to change my aim from conquest to space race.

490 BC --- Entered MA and revolted planning to go republic. Got 7 turns, tried again and got the same (I had 6 after the end of the turn). I got Monotheism and traded Engineering from Ottomans. Russia got Monotheism too, and I did not gift Persia into the Middle Ages just yet.
390 BC --- 2 Dutch galleys approach my area. This leaves me two options: allaiance with Netherlands against Persia or vice versa. I have too few troops to be safe against the Dutch, who have Great Lighthouse. Persia, on the other hand, can only reach my area through one passage, and they will be easy prey to my dromons if they try. Although my towns are still too small for a golden age, I can bombard without getting a GA. First, I must of course gift them into the Middle Ages. ... Unfortuately, they get Monotheism. I declare war. But I forgot I can't establish an embassy with Netherlands. And now, Perisa has tidbits to offer for an alliance against me.
370 BC --- Byzantium becomes a republic. No alliance against me - phew. So I ally Netherlands against Persia for Republic and get a RoP. All warriors except 3 disbanded. Two were on a journey for huts (one of them actually came from a hut) and the third is needed to keep the 2-tile island safe. Researching Feudalism with a deficit.
350 BC --- first horseman created.
310 BC --- India and Scandinavia have feudalism. Traded it from Scandinavia for Engineering. I have too few horsemen to upgrade so I choose Invention, 12 turns. It looks like India will get to Chivalry too soon. I decide to try and place a few towns near Northeastern India, for a better initial attack.
250 BC --- Carthage demand Engineering. I refuse and what do you know: they don't declare war.
230 BC --- India and Carthage knows literature.
210 BC --- Literature is widely known. Wars necessary to stifle the tech pace. I declare on Ottomans. Very careless, because I was trading luxuries with them. What's more, my trade route to Carthage was wrecked, so now I have a serious happiness problem. Typical "first round of the day"-mistake. 10% luxuries will now cost me about 15 gpt. Allied with Carthage against Ottomans. Allied with Russians agains Ottomans. Allied with Scandinavia against Persia.
190 --- Traded literature from the Dutch for Engineering.
70 --- India has Chivalry. Woe is me. Researched Invention.
50 --- Chivalry and Theology traded. Researching Gunpowder.
270 --- War on India. 2 towns & 1 city captured. Trade routes destroyed again. Luxury 10-20%
300 --- Dehli captured (Mausoleum, Sun Tzu). Indian golden age starts.
310 --- Goodnight. Dehli flips after just 2 turns. I had 20 knights there out of 22, and most Ancient Cavalry. Peace declared, gaining Chemistry. Long building period ensues with new trade deals.
590 --- Entered the Industrial Age. Got steam. I'm now tech leader with regards to required techs. Building horsemen, meaning both iron and salpeter sources have been self-pillaged.

What should have been done to avoid the flip? I think I can answer that myself. Dehli had Sun Tzu. So if I had brought a settler along with my musketmen and pikemen, I could just have founded a town close to Dehli and let my troops heal there. Elephants were scarce as of yet and I could probably have kept just two cheap units inside Dehli, possibly no units at all. Next time I attack India I will raze a few cities. After their GA the Indians don't look like they will contribute much to the tech pace again, whereas I could use their territory to fit in more cities for my republic.

@Drazek, although some guys can always surprise with incredible victory dates, I think your win will hold up very well. You did well to get that foothold on the Indian soil in the early AA, hampering their growth. Considering that you still had trouble blasting the Indians, I shiver at the the thought of doing it with riflemen on the pitch, as well as those doped veteran elefants. Cheap libraries and new towns have edged me to just two tiles away from Dehli and Bombay, however. So I can hopefully capture those two biggies on the first turn of war.

Aug 14, 2004, 09:05 AM
I was going for a culture win and buying all the culture improvements, but it didn't work.I've always had trouble with that too. You need a lot of patience. Closely packed cities are not bad, but perhaps they should have built the cultural imrovements later and the horsemen/warriors first? Some of the towns might be able to reach 10 shields per turn, which is a handy number for horseman/spearman/warrior/swordsman.

Jason Fliegel
Aug 14, 2004, 10:46 AM
If you missed my last turn log, let me set the stage for you: It's 330 BC, and the game is Conquest class. I'm the science leader, but my territory is small. I'm massing troops right now to prepare a war against India. India is currently in anarchy -- I just traded Republic to them -- but their army is bigger than mine. Here's what my empire looks like:

310 -- I move some troops around and send a spearman to the coast SW of Caesarea -- that will be a good spot for a city.

290 -- The Vikings extort Ivory from me. Sardica is founded near Chalcedon and begins a temple.

270 -- Constantinople finishes its settler. I go back to churning out swordsmen. Adrianople finishes its Spearman and begins a marketplace. I finish the road to Trebizond and start the road to Sardica. Meanwhile, Chalcedon has already been roaded to Trebizond and I'm working on roading my horses.

250 -- I move guys around.

230 -- I discover Literature. A lot of people have feudalism, but the best deal I can get is with Hannibal, who gives it to me along with 19 gold in exchange for Monotheism and Engineering. I have a monopoly in literature, so hopefully I can build some libraries and start to squeeze out some of the slower researchers. To facilitate this, I start a library in Caesarea and switch Adrianople to a library as well.

210 -- I build some more roads and mines, and found Naissus near Caesarea

190 -- Adiranople finsihes its library and goes back to churning out medieval infantry. Heraclea -- the staging point for out Indian invasion -- finishes its aquesduct and starts a barracks.

170 -- Constantinople starts a library.

150-50 -- I do some more build-up. In 50 BC, a couple of nations start building Leo's, so I figure they must have Invention. A few countries do, but none want to sell to me. I finishg the barracks in Heraclea and upgrade my attack force (upgrade financed in part by sale of Republic to Dutch).

30BC-30AD -- More war build-up. In 30 AD, I decide to build Knights Templar in Adrianople. If I get beaten to it, I can always switch to the Sistine Chapel or Bach's or Copernicus. I start research on Theology.

50 AD -- Apparently, someone else figured out Literature, because everyone's building the Great Library. India has started the Knights Templar in Jaipur -- a podunk town producing 4 shields per turn deep in the tundra. Interetsting strategy.

70 AD -- A whole mess of other countries start building KT. Did I make the wrong move by going for KT? By not trading Chivalry around when I could get something for it? Oh well -- too late now. I try to goad India into war by telling him to get his warrior out of my territory, but he doesn't bite -- he just withdraws the warrior. So be it -- I declare war on India. India is a Republic, and is still at war with Russia, so I'm hoping he has trouble keeping his empire happy.

90 AD -- Everyone is unhappy. Are you sure there's no war weariness in Monarchy? I decide KT was a bad idea and switch production to a Knight while I can still do that without losing shields. I capture Dacca from the Indians, then I realize my mistake -- all my trade routes go through Indian territory. Oops!!!!!

110 AD -- The Indians are fighting back. I lose a MI and an AC. I wipe out a bunch of their forces, but my F3 advisor still says I have a weak military compared to them.

130 AD -- I lose nothin; the Indians lose 1 MI. My stack of doom moves toward the next Indian city.

150 AD -- The Ottomans start on the Sistine Chapel while I am stil 14 turns from Theology. Since they also have Invention, I take this as a Bad Sign. It's also a bad thing when Russia and India sign a peace treaty. Now the Indians can bring the full weight of their military against me. I kill 2 Indian MI, 1 Indian Longbowman, and 2 Indian Swordsman. Again, I take no casualties, and again, F3 dude is still emabarassed by my weak military.

170 AD -- On India's turn, I lose a pikeman and a knight; he loses 2 longbowmen. On my turn, I kill a swordsman, an archer. an MI, a longbowman, and a pike. It's the Indian sampler! In the process, I lose a knight.

190 -- IBT, I fend off a war elephant, an MI, and a swordsman, killing them all. I lose an AC. I also see two Dutch swordsmen land outside an Indian city; one of them engages in battle with someone and dies. Very interesting -- it looks like India does have a 2 front war after all. On my turn, I throw my forces against the walls of Kohlapur and lose 2 MI, an AC and a Knight. India loses a single pikeman. Not good.

210 -- Moscow builds Sun Tzu's, which causes Delhi to build the Great Library. I lose an AC and an MI on India's turn. On my turn, my trebuchets take out Kohlapur's barracks and temple. I take out a war elephant (losing an AC in the process).

230 -- IBT, I lose an AC and an MI to war elephants. On my turn, I take out Kohlapur's collosseum, knock a pikeman down to 3 HP with my artillery, and force a war elephant to retreat.

250 -- Disaster -- India wipes out my invasion force, capturing 3 trebuchets in the process. I sue for peace, getting 86 gold and 1 GPT in the process. With my traderoutes reopened, I get dyes, incense and 27 gold from Persia in exchange for Monarchy, and silks and gems from Carthage in exchange for Ivory. I switch my war machine over to the production of marketplaces and harbors.

270 -- IBT, Carthage declared war on the Indians. Nobody likes India! I spend a turn consolidating.

280 -- Disaster!!!! Depsite the fact that it was size 3 and all its citizens were happy, Dacca -- the city I had captured from India -- flips back to India. I lose 2 pikes, an AC, and an MI, I think. Very not good. Upon reflection, I give myself the Big Giant Idiot Award for not starving the citizens and/or buying a temple. In other news, Carthage built Leo's Workshop IBT.

290 -- Iznik builds KT. I would have been 10 turns from completing it, so it's just as well I decided not to go for it. My workers continue developing the land near Naissus and Caesarea (they've been draining the swamp, roading, and mining). This turn is interrupted by a several day break in my playing; during this time, I have decided that I should rebuild my military and make another run at India once I learn Astronomy and can therefore attack India without breaking my trade routes.

300 -- The workers work. Trebizond builds a harbor and starts an aqueduct.

310 -- More worker actions.

320 -- Naissus finishes the harbor and starts a barracks.

330 -- Constantinople finishes its marketplace and starts a harbor.

340 -- Nicaea finishes its marketplace and starts a Knight, in preparation for the second (and hopefully more successful) war against India. The workers keep working

350 -- IBT, Bursa builds the Sistine Chapel. Sardica finishes its Temple and starts a Courthouse. Caesarea finishes its Marketplace and joins the war machine by building knights.

360 -- Workers work, and I despair of the fact that most of my rivals now have Education. I'm still 1 turn away. This wouldn't be so bad if they also had me edged out in Invention. After the turn, my wines-for-ivory deal with Osman ends. I renew, prying 8 GPT out of Osman in the process. But he STILL won't give me Invention!

370 -- I learn Education and start researching Banking -- I *think* the AI tends to value Astronomy higher, so my hope is I can swap Banking for Astornomy and Invention. Constantinpople finishes a harbor, Adrianople a Marketplace. Both start Universities. Caesarea and Nicea switch to Universities as well.

380-390 -- Not much happens.

400 -- The RUssians and Ottomans start building Copernicus's Observatory. When I go to see if they'll sell, I learn that Russia and Scandanavia also have Banking. I have GOT to get my research rate up. I sell Theology to Persia for 10 gold just because I can.

410 -- Now India is building Copernicus. I may have to do some of my research at the point of a sword. Of course, despite my intention to build up for a war against India, I've been spending my resources on Marketplaces and Universities.

420 -- I start building another settler -- there's room for one more city north of my horses.

430 -- The Ottomans are building Bach's, which means they have Music Theory.

440 -- More worker actions.

450 -- Now people are building Magellan's Voyage!!!! I am so up a creek, sciencewise. Persia charges me 440 gold plus ivory for dyes and incense, and they now have invention and music theory. But I am one turn from Banking, so hopefully I can get something useful for it in trade.

460 -- I sell Banking to Persia for Invention, 17 gold, and 2 GPT. Nobody will accept GPT from me because of what happened when I went to war with India, severing my trade routes. It's time for a new approach. I start researching Printing Press with a single scientist, figuring I can use the gold to buy myself back into technology parity. I hope.

470 -- More of my cities are building knights. We WILL retake Dacca, and we will hold it this time.

480 -- Almost everyone's got 4 techs I don't have -- Astronomy, Economics, Gunpowder, and Music Theory (five, if you count the fact that at least some of them have Navigation).

At this point, I decide to forego the turn log and start only logging the highlights.

530 -- I buy Gunpowder from the Persians for my entire treasury (1100 gold) plus 2 GPT. I am so excited, I forget to shop around. Idiot!

590 -- I go to war with the Dutch, who are the only people as backwards as me.

600 -- The Ottomans build Bach's Cathedral, which leads the Indians to build Smith's Trading Company.

610 -- My forces land at Ganges, which is a Dutch town south of my home continent (see picture). My Dromons sink a Dutch Galley, triggering my Golden Age.

620 -- I capture Ganges. As soon as I get a harbor hooked up, I will have a second source of saltepeter, which may prove valuable.

630 -- I capture Gades, which shared the island with Ganges.

640 -- I fight off an incursion from the Dutch near Chalcedon (my horse town). The idiot Dutch don't even think to try to pillage my horses.

660 -- I end my war with the Dutch. I have gained 2 cities and one saltepeter. During the war, I've managed to acquire Chemistry and Printing Press. I've also managed to trade enough maps to learn that most of my rivals have made it to the Industrial Age.

720 -- I found Septum.

730 -- I found Nicomedia. I start positioning my troops to attack the Dutch in case they decide not to remove themselves from my territory when I politely ask them to do so (as I plan to do). I also bring my science levels back up to max (or as max as I can get them without losing GPT).

740 -- Sure enough, the Dutch would rather be at war then remove themselves from our territory. So be it. I kill a few Dutch units, and they kill a few of mine.

750 -- More fighting. I land a Musketman and an AC near the Dutch city of Sucis, and they get killed. I decide my goal for this game will be to make it to the end of the game. That means a victory, a non-conquest loss, or being the last Civ to fall in a conquest loss.

770 -- I buy Navigation from India.

810 -- With a couple of Dutch Knights menacing one of my cities, I sue for peace until I have time to get reorganized. I get 1 gold out of the Dutch in the process.

820 -- My Golden Age ends.

830 -- I trade my extra Saltpeter to Russia and my extra horses to the Vikings. I don't get any techs out of the deal, but I manage to secure a few GPT.

930 -- I discover Magnetism. I trade it to Carthage for Gems, Silks, 20 Gold, and Music Theory. They won't sell me Metallurgy, Economics, or Democracy, which are the techs I really want, but I take what I can get. I then buy Metallurgy from Persia in exchange for my map, Magnetism, most of my treasury, and 16 GPT. In 8 turns, I will have Theory of Gravity and launch myself into the Industrial Age.

950 -- The Russians are building the Theory of Evolution. A few other civs are building Universal Sufferage. I'm definitely behind in techs, but I guess it could be worse. I sell my World Map to the Vikings for 2 GPT.

1000 -- I launch myself into the Industrial Age, gaining Steam Power as my freebie tech. I trade it to Carthage in exchange for Democracy, Economics, 5 GPT, and 26 gold. I then buy Miulitary Tradition from Persia for 22 GPT, 235 gold, and Theory of Gravity. Everyone is now in the Industrial Ages except for the Netherlands. Scorewise, I am in second to last place (ahead of only the Vikings). Here's what the world looks like:

Without revealing to much about the Industrial Ages, I see that Ainwood has done something with this map that will make the remainder of the game very interesting.

Aug 14, 2004, 06:28 PM

For those of you who managed to drag your civilization kicking and screaming into the middle ages

In 975 BC, at the end of Ancient Times (, Queen Theodora was preparing her military in hopes of slowing down the Indian Juggernaut.

The Middle Ages, 975 BC – 520 AD
In order to continue the growth of her empire during the impending conflict, Theodora called for a new form of government in 925 BC. After three turns of anarchy, the new Feudalist state of Byzantine was formed. In 800 BC, India completed the Temple of Artemis, the cultural wonder of the world. Theodora, however, was unimpressed. She was anxious for the muster of her military might.

War with India, 750 BC – 130 AD
In 750 BC Theodora declared war on the pompous Indian civilization, and ordered 10 med. inf., 2 pikes, 1 elite warrior, and 1 trebuchet to invade Indian Territory. Two turns later Kirachi was under Byzantine rule. Over the next 4 centuries (20 turns), Theodora’s troops advanced and fell back, trying to contain the onslaught of Indian medieval infantry and archers. The Byzantines enter a Golden Age in 530 BC thanks to a naval victory. Only two Byzantine divisions were lost during these 400 years, thanks to the addition of five trebuchets to the military host. Ghandi, however, lost dozens. Other than the trebuchets, all the cities of the empire were ordered to build libraries, marketplaces, harbors and aqueducts: except one city that is, which completed the Statue of Zues in 450 BC.

Delhi and its Temple of Artemis were finally captured in 350 BC, and another city was annexed approximately every three turns until 110 BC. At this time, Theodora determined that Feudalism was no longer appropriate for Byzantium, due to a lack of commerce. She ordered a revolt to Republic, and simultaneously ordered a Great Military Leader to move her palace from Constantinople to Delhi. Another leader came soon after, and was ordered to form an army of Ancient Cavalry. Unfortunately, the citizens did not appreciate Theodora’s new government, and they revolted for 140 years (seven turns). Nevertheless, in 30 AD the Republic was formed, and a Forbidden Palace was completed in Constantinople one turn later.

In 130 AD Theodora agreed to peace with India in exchange for 3 cities, reducing Indian autonomy to a small tundra city in the south. In 390 the peace treaty expired, and India was eliminated.

Industrial Age
Thanks to a great deal of technology brokering, the building of universities and the research of Metallurgy, in 520 AD the Byzantines entered the Industrial Age. Upon entering the age, Theodora gifted technology to the Ottomans and Persians, and they gained the knowledge of Medicine and Nationalism. Medicine was acquired, but the Persians would not relinquish the secrets of Nationalism for 1300g, 165gpt and ivory. Theodora was not amused.

Theodora was then informed that she had “learned the secrets of CHEMISTRY from the Persians,” and she suffered a very small heart attack. Fortunately, her advisor had misspoken, and she had truly acquired the knowledge of Steam Power. Theodora ordered the advisor beheaded and felt better immediately. She then set her sights upon the Republic of Russia, and ordered her cartographer and military advisor to send her an immediate report on the status of her empire. In light of the recent beheading, they jumped to the task:

Aug 15, 2004, 02:24 AM
I've always had trouble with that too. You need a lot of patience. Closely packed cities are not bad, but perhaps they should have built the cultural imrovements later and the horsemen/warriors first? Some of the towns might be able to reach 10 shields per turn, which is a handy number for horseman/spearman/warrior/swordsman.

Thanks, I don't feel as bad now. I was trying a new idea. It worked in PtW but I think I'll have to change it in C3C. Maybe CxxC instead of CxC.

Aug 16, 2004, 04:54 AM
Golden Age started 500BC, the turn after moving to Monarchy. India went to war and GA triggered by sinking a galley. Indians will pay dearly their treacherous acts.

310BC - First Military Leader (elite AC). Created an army of AC
250BC - Second Military Leader (elite AC).
Saving it for Forbibdden Palace. Maybe a bad idea, since I had tons of elite wins before Forbidden Palace was actually built.

10AD - Arrgh, a treacherous Byzantin city has decided to join the Indians and their evil cause. It should be only a minor nuisance.

30AD - taking Indian capital Delhi and Artemis with it. Wonder how long it will take before it flips?

Whoops, did not take long. Two turns later I loose several well trained including some elite garrisons when Delhi flips. I rush back with my army and a couple of AC that were going for next city and I take it back the turn after. I sue for peace and get a couple of more cities around Delhi. I put all my men inside Delhi to prevent a flip. I use my saved up leader to build Forbidden Palace. Delhi is now one of my best cities. Well, if it flips now, I will probably cry. After building library, I starve it to do some 'cleansing' and get popular majority. When I go into war again a bit later it wont be flipping (cross my fingers).

Then follows a rather long period of peace.
I had a flip and lost one minor city back to the Indians. The only problem was I had 4 dromons in there. What was I thinking ??

390BC - I research Theology as first civ, and trade for gunpowder and chivalry and chemistry. Luckily Indians dont have saltpeter. I have a nice little source up to the north.

470AD - I declare war and Indians seem weak. The elephant rush that greets me is not up to usual standards.

490AD Third Military Leader (from Medieval Infrantry). I create an army and wait for cavalry.
580AD Fourth Military Leader (from Medieval Infrantry). I create an army and wait for cavalry.
I cannot remember a game where I had that many MGL. Who needs Heroic Epic?

640AD - I get Music Theory as first civ. Nice because I am behind in tech. I get a bit nervous as I see Carthage start Shakespeare. I trade it around for Astronomy, Military Training, Banking and Navigation. Carthage and Russia are still ahead, I can see they have at least Democracy and Physics. But nobody in Industrial Era so far.
650AD Fifth Military Leader (from Medieval Infrantry). I create an army and wait for cavalry.

Peace is then made with Indians for all but their capital, including a city on a far off island that is close to iron. We expect to finish them off soon.

We then research Economics as first Civ, and trade it around for Physics and some lux.

800AD we discover Magnetism and trade with Ottomans for Theory of Gravity. Enter IA. Get Steam Power as free tech. Nobody else has it yet. I trade it around for Medecin and gpt. Carthage is the tech leader and they have Nationalism and who knows - maybe more. I have made a stupid error at some point it seems, noone wants to give me tech for gpt or resource/lux any more. I think it comes from the fact that I made peace with the Indians while having alliance with Russians and others against them (?).

Hopefully what follows is a an overview of the Byzantine land in 800AD. If anybody can point me to information on how to insert pics in the text that would be most appreciated.

Aug 16, 2004, 10:06 AM
MiniMe: Try these instructions from one of our more technically oriented players:

To add screenshots to your posts:

1. Create the screenshot as a .jpg file using your Paint program, cropped and reduced to 800 pixels width or less.

2. Upload the file to the server using the Upload FIle link a the boittom of every page.

3. Click on View New Server 8 listing in the acknowledgment screen

4. Right click the file link for the file you have just uploaded and Copy the shortcut.

5. Put "[ img ] link [ /img ]" tags into your post where you want the image file to be displayed. Leave out the spaces that I have inserted here to disable the tags and paste the shortcut you copied in place of the "link".

Aug 17, 2004, 03:25 AM
Thanks for the hints !

Aug 17, 2004, 06:27 AM

Ancient Age (
Yes I survived the middle ages, but I certainly didn't do as well as I thought I might with the tech lead I had at the beginning of the MA. This is a tough map. Yes it is an archipelago, but that helps if you can achieve a tech brokerage position and maintain more easily. With the number of seafaring civs this is difficult to achieve. Also having more than one other civ on your landmass means you can use one to help defeat the other in wars, which again you could not do effectively here since the AI make poor sea bourne invaders.

Anyway, here is what happened.

Indian War
We reached the MA in 900BC, and had tech up to theology at that time. We tried to set ourselves up to attack India, as they were the obvious threat, and it is nice to own your landmass. In 350BC we declared on India. The war ran untile 150AD. In the beginning we made reasonable progress, using Dromons to bombard our target cities. We quickly captured two. About this time we completed the Statue of Zeus to use ancient cavalry in the war. Then things started to go wrong. Both conquests flipped, though were retaken. Then the hordes of Indian troops starting scoring too high a toll on our troops. Eventually we just had insufficient left to continue. Our golden age was triggered in 70BC, but much of it was wasted in a war that wasn't going anywhere. In 150AD we gave India peace for their annoying city just north of our core. Net gain only three cities.

Tech Slide
Perhaps as a consequence of being a monarchy rather than a republic, we had difficulty keeping up in tech, in spite of our initial MA tech lead. Our firt trade, after entering the MA, was not until 410BC, when feudalism finally came out, and we traded theology for it. Russia made the early running as tech leader, until they were later ripped apart by the Ottomans. In 150AD we traded our newly discovered education for invention, gunpowder and chivalry. We immediately sold India Education so as to render the temple of artemis impotent.

We saw that India had no saltpeter, and so thought they would make a good repeat target, but later in the Age, we found ourselves falling well behind them, and then saw that they had traded for saltpeter when cavalry appeared, long before we had MT.

In 230AD, education brought us printing press, but by now everyone had traded contacts, so there was no value in this except being a pre-requisite for democracy,

In 340AD we buy Astronomy and trade it for banking. We were doing a pre-build on Copernicus, and speed it up by joiining three workers to Adrianapole. We succeed in getting this wonder in 490AD.

In 370AD, Astronomy buys us music theory, but we are unable to buy democracy. I had decided at this point that monarchy wasn't working for me, and that I needed to change to democracy for its improvement in my economy and research capability.

In 420AD we finish building the forbidden palace.

In 520AD, we buy chemistry, and trade it for navigation. We then trade for the complete world map.

In 730AD, our sought after democracy finally becomes tradeable for both navigation and chemistry.

In 740AD, the end oif the Russian war sees us pick up metallurgy.

In 900AD we learn military tradition and trade for physics.

In 980AD, we can buy either magnetism or Theory of Gravity. If we brought the latter we could trade and enter the IA, but I decide to get magnetism and research ToG, so as to use the big picture.

In 1090AD we finish delf research and enter the IA in sixth place.

Russian War
In the middle oif the age, we were struggling to afford tech. I noticed that the Ottomans had left Russia with only four cities, so I declared War in 680AD. It was then a waiting game as I lined up to capture three of these cities on the sixth turn of war. In 740AD we captured the three Russian cities, but only got a big discount on one tech, metallurgy. I was hoping to get a couple of techs from this.

We revolted to democracy in 770AD, and drew 6 turns of anarchy. Initially I had thought I would be at war a lot early, and that therefore monarchy would be a good government, but democracy has suited our forced 'peacefulness' far better, enabling us to research, and buy our way out of our tech hole.

Industrial Age
From the big picture we see that five civs are already in the IA, but none have medicine. Russia is not there yet, but there doesn't seem any point putting them there, because all first tier techs, except medicine have already gone. We trade India medicine for steam, economics, world map, 91gpt, and 1 gold. I then found that no-one seems to want my gpt, however, I really did not think I had broken my rep. It is annoying, because now I have over 300gpt to play with! Medicine and a lot of gold gets us electricity. Electricity, medicine and some gold gets us nationalism, and I end up just selling medicine to Persia for almost 2000 gold, as they will not take gpt to buy either replaceable parts or Industrialisation.

I start work on Scientific method, and a prebuild for Theory of Evolution.

Future Plans
If we can get ToE, that will sort out our tech issues. We are also planning a war against the Dutch, as they have a resource I want, and are still in the MAs. Victory target is still probably space. The tech pace certainly supports it, but I need to get out with the leaders again somehow!

Aug 17, 2004, 12:42 PM
Medicine and a lot of gold gets us electricity. I don't understand. Are you able to choose your free tech? Doesn't the free tech drop in when you hit Show Big Picture? I guess these questions doesn't quite belong in this thread, but you seem to have done something similar in the early Middle Ages.
EDIT: Forget the quote. I just realized you were trading. :blush: But what about the trick you did in the early MA?

Aug 17, 2004, 01:43 PM
The Middle Ages started out nicely for me, but didn't go the way I would have liked in the end.

I begin the MA best friends with India. We have luxury trades going as well as gold per turn gifting that I laid on Ghandi to buy some time to build an assault force. I also have luxury trades going with Russia, and if I go to war with India too soon that trade route will be cut. My research is at 0% so I can make good use of the Great Library, and I'm using some cash here and there to rush improvements, though I'm saving some as well to upgrade units. Carthage appears to be putting some real pressure on the Vikings, and Persia soon declares on the Dutch and tries to drag several of us into the war. My plan: Be ready for war in a little over 20 turns. My deals with India expire in 15 turns and my trade with Russia expires in 20.

From the GReat Library we learn Monotheism in 330BC, Invention in 270BC, and Chivalry in 170BC. The Russians complete Sun Tzu's and India completes Leonardo's, and we learn Theology and gunpowder in 90BC. Also in 90 BC we prepare for our attack on Lahore. We are strong compared to them militarily, and our initial attack force consisits of 2 ancient cav, 3 trebs, 1 elite archer, 1 longbow, 1 pike, and 11 MI. 5 Dromons will bombard Lahore from the west side. 4 Dromons have been sent along the south coast in case any galleys come that way, and to harass troops close to the shore and bombard roads. Mainly though, they are looking for a galley to sink to start our golden age. We pay Russia 128 gold +8 per turn for an alliance against India.

Lahore falls with ease and I am instilled with confidence that the war will go well. The Dromons redline all 4 defenders and we move through quickly towards Jaipur, leaving a small garrison in Lahore. Too small a garrison it turns out. War elephants break through our line and retake Lahore, sending India into their Golden Age as well. I swear that every single war elephant I saw was elite, with 6 hit points. Where they earned their stripes I have no idea.

In 10AD we retake Lahore and cut the road. Soon after Lahore will flip back to India. Where the heck did all these elite elephants come from?! Our assault force takes a serious pounding. We lose 2 MI attacking Jaipur and burn the city to the ground. It is clear now that the war is NOT going well. Jaipur would surely flip if we tried to keep it, and its removal dramatically cheanges the cultural boundary in that area. If we are forced to abandon this assault, having Jaipur taken out should allow our border towns to maintain enough culture to avoid flipping.

We get education IBT, Lahore flips, and India completes the Knights Templar. Soon after we lose Trebizond to war elephants. Our assault force is decimated and our trebs captured. India in turn uses our trebs against our dromons that have been moving along the coast bombarding roads and troops. (I really enjoyed those dromons by the way. I thought it was a pretty cool unit) At this point my goal is to get out of the war asap, but I want Trebizond back and I don't want to break my alliance with Russia. AND I could really use a Golden Age about now. I never saw an Indian galley to attack.

In 190AD a Dutch galley enters our waters and we declare war. One dromon bombards, a second sinks it starting our Golden Age. In 230AD Russia signs for peace with India. We manage to retake Trebizond in a daring move. If we had failed I think we would have lost 2 more cities if the war continued. We make peace with India. They give 16 gold, 3gpt and... Lahore!

During all this time I really neglected my trade with the other civs. I kept watching for new techs but didn't make any trades. Now it's time to get back in the trading game. We get silks and gems from carthage, and gold per turn from persia for theology, and some other trades not as noteworthy. We head for banking in 11 turns. We make gifts to India but Ghandi is still furious with us.

In 310AD we make peace with the Dutch and give him invention. I think everyone is polite towards us except Ghandi of course, and Carthage who is gracious. In 340 we make it to banking ahead of everyone. For trades we acquire Astronomy, Music Theory, Chemistry, wines, furs, 41gold per turn, plus about 300 coins. Definitely a good trading round, there. In 390 we make it to economics and we don't trade this time. I want to try and build Smith's Trading Post. Now on to Physics.

In 450 AD we get Physics. For trades we get Navigation, Printing Press, Metallurgy, gems, more gold and gold per turn including 990 gold from Russia. A tip for people learning the tech trading game: trade with the civs that have the most cash LAST! IBT: the Dutch ask for an alliance vs. India. HA! No thank you. You can have those elephants all to your self. Russia turns around and asks for alliance vs. Dutch. No thanks. Our citizens are really happy right now. In fact we soon find out that our civ is the happiest in the world.

480AD: India completes Copernicus'. Carthage demands banking and we give it to them. They are still gracious. We get Theory of Gravity first in 520 AD and trade it around. India gets it as a present and the Vikings get LOTS of tech gifts from us this year. I think they have one city left at this point. Russia offers 8 gold for Theory of Gravity. C'mon Cathy, you're loaded! I think it probably means she is about to finish the research on it herself. We give it to her. Another tip for the tech trading game: give it away if you can't get jack for it (unless it's an important tech, of course). Better to have a civ on good terms with you for gifting to them than to hoard the tech and have them annoyed with you a few turns later for not trading with them.

Magentism is 9 turns away for us. I highly doubt we'll make it there first. I turn off research for +300 gold per turn. In 580AD, sure enough Russia, the Ottomans, and Persia are in the Industrial Age. I don't know who got what techs because it all happened in one turn. We buy magnetism from Ottomans for 1700 gold (ouch!). We get steam power as our free tech, and of course we have no coal. As far as I can tell Russia has a monopoly on coal, but none of it is hooked up yet. Medicine and Nationalism have already been traded around. We gift Magnetism to Ghandi and then gift him Steam Power. He's still pissed at us.

So we made it. At least I didn't lose any ground in the war with India. Taking Jaipur down will help keep their cultural boundary at bay I think. I'll post a couple shots illustrating that. I think my best bet at this point is to focus on cultural and educational improvements in my cities, keep my people happy, and try to keep the other civs happy with me long enough to go for a diplo win. It's clear that military actions on demi-god difficulty are out of my league!

Yes, I know it's sad when the best screen shots I have is of a shifted cultural boundary!

Aug 17, 2004, 03:30 PM (predator)

Link to Ancient Age spoiler (

Entering the Middle Ages

At the end of Ancient Times I'd expanded to fill most of the home region. I had a defensive ongoing war with India - she was sending units to attack me at the chokepoint, I was just defending without trying to invade her. I also had an ongoing war with Carthage which had been completely uneventful.

I'd been hurrying research forward. I wanted to get a bit of a tech lead over India and then invade her. I decided not to go directly for Military Tradition. At this difficulty level that would take a fair while and in the meantime India was almost certain to build a force of Elephants. I decided to go for Chivalry first and to try to subdue India before she had many Elephants.

In 975BC when I learned Currency I used some of DaveMcW's Free Tech Tricks ( I used "the big picture" from the new era screen, then F4, then gifted the other scientific Civs into the Middle Ages. Ottomans got Monotheism, Russia got Feudalism, and Persia got Engineering. Nice, all three first level techs! I traded to get all three techs, exited, and my free tech was Invention. That was almost enough to make me change my goal to space or to change my research to head for Cavalry. I gave my head a shake and set research to Chivalry as planned.

Preparing for War in a Golden Age

I decided to build Statue Of Zeus. I hadn't started it before this date because I wasn't sure it would be worthwhile - if I'd decided on the path to Cavalry it would be obsolete relatively quickly. Having decided on the Chivalry/Knights approach Statue of Zeus seemed clearly worthwhile.

I also decided to quickly produce some Dromons and to trigger a Golden Age. I wanted one soon to increase income (saving up for horsemen upgrades) and to speed production of my Forbidden Palace, Statue Of Zeus, and some veteran Horsemen.

In 875BC I used a Dromon to destroy an incoming galley from Carthage and that triggered my Golden Age.

In 825BC I got the horses in the north connected via harbors. This was a nice way to connect them quickly in this game without investing a lot of early worker turns into creating the long road through the mountains.

A few Carthage ships approached my shores in 800BC. I didn't have enough Dromons to handle them so I made peace with Carthage, ending that war and its reverse war weariness. I was now at war only with India.

In 730BC I completed the Statue Of Zeus and began a prebuild for Knights Templar.

My war with India continued to be purely a defensive one as I built up a force of Horsemen and slowly researched Chivalry. I wasn't in a hurry to learn Chivalry. I wanted to have a fair number of Horsemen and the funds to upgrade them by the time I learned it. I also wanted to have the Knights Templar prebuild near completion.

India cooperated by continuing to send a regular trickle of attackers. In 630BC this resulted in my first great leader:

The leader immediately formed my first army which remained empty waiting for the discovery of Chivalry.

In 590BC I completed my Forbidden Palace. The Golden Age had given that task a nice boost.

In 550BC I learned Chivalry and set research to zero. I didn't have my iron connected yet so I was able to build a few more horsemen before beginning the upgrades.

In 490BC I completed Knights Templar, in Constantinople along with Statue of Zeus.

Finally in 470BC I connected iron and began upgrading. I had 20 Horsemen at this point. I'd been using cash to rush a lot of things, including short rushing some Horsemen, but I still had funds on hand to upgrade 11 Horsemen immediately. Even though my luxury slider was at 30% and I was paying 48gpt for unit support, net income was quite good at 217gpt. This was partly due to my Golden Age and partly due to deals with remote Civs - my largest deal so far was Invention to Russia for 89gpt+197g.

The Invasion of India

In 450BC, near the end of my Golden Age, three Knights joined the waiting Army which then led my troops into India. Shortly after this construction of the Heroic Epic began :)

In 430BC I decided it would be useful to get Russia and Ottomans fighting to wear each other down a bit in advance of my arrival in their area. I had some nice income from Russia at the time so I declared war on Ottomans, then allied Russia against them.

In 390BC I took Delhi from India, gaining The Pyramids and The Great Library. By this date I'd upgraded all Horsemen and my forces consisted of 19 Knights, 3 Ancient Cavalry, 1 Crusader, and 3 Dromons.

Happiness was an ongoing problem in this game. War weariness made it worse of course. Still, I'm glad I went to Republic - I think that overall I gained a fair bit from it even after allowing for what I spent on luxuries.

At 230BC I had reduced India to five towns, all size one:

I positioned troops to take the remaining Indian towns as they grew. Annoying, but I didn't want to raze them and didn't want to trade peace for some and then have to wait 20 turns.

In 190BC I razed one of the Indian towns to get furs connected. Finally a second luxury! I had to keep my luxury slider at 50% though, the second luxury wasn't enough help to lower the slider without also having to use entertainers in core cities.

Invading Russia

I regrouped the bulk of my forces on the western Indian coast, rushed some Dromons nearby, and in 150BC began my invasion of Russia.

Taking over Russia was time consuming. She had a fair number of units and I left some of mine behind to clean out the remnants of India. New troops took a long time to travel from my homeland across India and then to be ferried over to Russia. Nonetheless it was straightforward. Russia didn't have iron so she didn't even have Pikemen to defend.

During this invasion I started using my Dromons for military support when they weren't required as transports. I never built a lot of them nor used them heavily this way in the game but I did use them more and more later on (as I had more left over from transport duty) and found them helpful - four or five Dromons could soften a coastal target a bit before land troops attacked it.

While taking over Russia my troops produced three more leaders. Each immediately formed an army. I loaded three Knights into one army to lead the fighting and held the other two armies in reserve so that they could travel by ship.

In 110BC my troops in India razed her last town, having taken three before then as they grew. With India out of the game my happiness improved a lot. I also gained control of spices (luxury #3) early in my invasion of Russia for another happiness boost.

I continually rushed settlers in ex-India while invading Russia, to fill in the land and expand borders toward my domination goal.

At 50AD Russia was down to two towns (hidden somewhere in the fog) and my map looked like this:

Also in 50AD the Great Library gave me Education, ending its usefulness. By then it had given me Theology and Gunpowder. A nice boost, I posthumously thanked India for building it for me.

Invading Ottomans

Late in my invasion of Russia I saw the land connection to Ottomans. Good news, that would be a bit faster than transporting units across water.

At 50AD I was still at war with the Ottomans from my earlier alliance with Russia against them. So my troops just continued onward into Ottoman lands.

The Ottomans were tougher than previous opponents. They were at par in tech and had iron and horses. But they didn't have saltpeter so they only had Pikemen and Knights. I loaded one of my two reserve armies with Knights and dug in with two Knight armies spearheading the invasion.

In 210AD I finally defeated my second Ottoman city, Uskudar. For this city I made an exception to my domination approach and razed it. It had the Great Wall, a wonder which was of little use to me but one which I really didn't want the Ottomans regaining via a flip, not even temporarily.

Progress continued slowly. In 280AD I defeated a fourth Ottoman city, Istanbul, and with it took over Sun Tzu's. After this progress sped up a bit because I could cash-rush Knights locally.

Some time earlier I'd started sending troops sailing east from the homeland. They took a Russian town on the large island southeast of Netherlands, then continued sailing east and found two Russian towns in the southwest tundra region of the Ottoman lands. They took over these towns and eliminated Russia in 300AD.

In 310AD Carthage declared war on me. I still had two Knight armies operating in Ottoman lands. Those armies couldn't travel off the island and the Ottomans were reduced enough in strength at this date that the armies with just a few support troops should be able to finish them off. So I started regrouping the majority of my forces to sail for Carthage.

My armies and some support units continued in the Ottoman lands. In 420AD they took the last Ottoman city on their home island. The support units then prepared to sail for the island north of Ottomans and east of Carthage. My world map at 420AD, with the Ottomans nearly wiped out and the invasion of Carthage under way:

During the invasion of Ottomans I'd started researching again. I wanted to learn Navigation and Military Tradition. I researched the bottom path learning Chemistry in 340AD, Metallurgy in 390AD, and Military Tradition in 430AD. Along the way I traded with Persia to get Astronomy, Navigation, some gold, and another luxury (incense.)

I also captured Hanging Gardens from Ottomans and had gained two more luxuries. The result was that by 420AD I finally had happiness well under control. I only needed a 10% luxury rate to maintain full productivity throughout my empire, even with some war weariness.

Invading Carthage

I'd held back one army while invading Ottomans and got another one during that fighting. So when my troops landed in Carthage in 340AD they were accompanied by two armies. Six Knights immediately joined the armies and they spearheaded the invasion.

Carthage didn't have horses. But she had Numidian Mercenaries and Musketmen. I made good progress at first as can be seen by the minimap above at 420AD. But by that date I was losing steam - I still had my two armies in Carthage but my support troops were down to six Knights.

In 430AD I learned Military Tradition and paused to ugprade four of my Knights (the other two were veterans.) After this I was able to use all income to rush additional Cavalry locally and the pace picked up again.

I'd produced my 6th leader in 380AD while invading Carthage and had saved him for this time. He rushed Military Academy in 430AD which made my armies a bit stronger. I also thought I might end up cash rushing an army or two to send to other lands but that ended up being unnecessary - I decided it was more useful to rush Cavalry with my funds.

Some Cavalry and Crusaders sailed for the island shared by Ottomans and Carthage in 440AD.

In 500AD I'd driven Carthage entirely off her home island and had begun invading the island east of it:

I'd been aggressively expanding territory in the Ottoman lands in the meantime and also had taken the Carthage town at the south of the Netherlands.

I took over the last Ottoman town in 520AD and they were out of the game. My troops there travelled north and took over the Carthage towns on the island.

After taking over those towns I sent a couple of shiploads of units to try to eliminate Carthage. It turned out to be a long chase because she founded a town on another island during the process.

Invading Scandinavia

After driving Carthage off her homeland in 500AD my troops regrouped at the north, then declared war on Scandinavia and invaded in 520AD. This fight was straightforward but a bit unlucky in culture flips - I had to recapture two cities.

In 560AD I took the last Viking city on their home island.


While fighting the Vikings I sent troops to land in the north Netherlands where Scandinavia and Carthage had each established one town. I'd had two more leaders (7th and 8th in the game) while fighting Carthage and Scandinavia - both of them travelled to the Netherlands as empty armies.

At 560AD I controlled 55% of the world's land. Victory was in sight.

My troops took over the Viking and Carthage towns and were then ready to invade Holland. Holland would be easy - she'd lagged in tech throughout the game and didn't have saltpeter. In 580AD I declared war and invaded.

For the next few turns I was working on a few things at once:
1) "Fill in" previously conquered lands using libraries and settlers.
2) Chase down the last scattered Viking and Carthage holdings.
3) Invade Holland.

In 620AD I eliminated Scandinavia and in 640AD eliminated Carthage.

And finally in 650AD a domination victory!

At this point I was still at war with Holland, still at peace with Persia, and there was no one else left in the game:

Aug 17, 2004, 04:11 PM
I don't understand. Are you able to choose your free tech? Doesn't the free tech drop in when you hit Show Big Picture? I guess these questions doesn't quite belong in this thread, but you seem to have done something similar in the early Middle Ages.
EDIT: Forget the quote. I just realized you were trading. :blush: But what about the trick you did in the early MA?
If you research the last tech to reach the new age, as opposed to trading for it, then you have the option of going to the big picture screen. This takes you to the science advisor. From there you can select the tech you want as your free tech! You also can jump to the foreign advisor screen before receiving your free tech, and so trade for early age techs, and therefore in some cases chose a second tier tech as your free tech.

The crucial bit is researching that last tech! Hope this helps. To put credit where credit is due, I learnt this trick from Dave McW tech jumping ( . Note, Sir Pleb did something similiar in his game.

Aug 17, 2004, 04:32 PM
From there you can select the tech you want as your free tech!
Using the approach you describe it is possible to get a second tier tech as your free tech. But I don't think this trick lets you choose which tech you get. I used the technique for the first time in this game to ensure that I got a unique tech. I was lucky to have the three scientific AIs get all three first tier techs without getting a double. But I tried to force my free tech by selecting Chivalry before exiting from the new era big picture and I still ended up getting Invention. So I think that the tech you get, while guaranteed to be unique, will still be random among the available possibilities.

Aug 17, 2004, 04:42 PM
But I tried to force my free tech by selecting Chivalry before exiting from the new era big picture and I still ended up getting Invention. So I think that the tech you get, while guaranteed to be unique, will still be random among the available possibilities.
I was wondering why you hadn't just chosen Chivalry! All I can say is that I chose the tech at the end of the AA and got what I chose. I then chose a tech at the end of the MA and also got what I chose. So I assumed that the process worked like the Philosophy free tech, or the ToE free techs - you get what you have queued. My sample isn't very large, however, so it may have just been luck.

I have just checked both my end AA and end MA selections. At both times there were three tech options that could have been my free tech. Ie a one in nine that I got what I wanted by luck. I am sufficiently encouraged by my results to continue believing I can chose the free tech by queueing it on the F6 screen. I guess it will only take one failure to convince me otherwise, though.

Aug 17, 2004, 05:05 PM
Just a quick question. Is it appropriate to post on this thread if you gave up during the AA and reloaded to 20 turns earlier and played forward. I don't plan on submitting the game, but am curious if posting my new strategy would be of interest.

Aug 17, 2004, 05:41 PM

I have seen many others do it, so I assume it is ok. I would certainly like to hear what you tried. And will it be literary or just exposition? :)

Aug 18, 2004, 02:44 AM
I was wondering why you hadn't just chosen Chivalry! All I can say is that I chose the tech at the end of the AA and got what I chose. I then chose a tech at the end of the MA and also got what I chose. So I assumed that the process worked like the Philosophy free tech, or the ToE free techs - you get what you have queued. My sample isn't very large, however, so it may have just been luck.

I have just checked both my end AA and end MA selections. At both times there were three tech options that could have been my free tech. Ie a one in nine that I got what I wanted by luck. I am sufficiently encouraged by my results to continue believing I can chose the free tech by queueing it on the F6 screen. I guess it will only take one failure to convince me otherwise, though.

You have had a good portion of luck. You can get a different tech than selected. It' different from the free tech you get from philosophy or ToE.

Aug 18, 2004, 04:04 AM
You have had a good portion of luck. You can get a different tech than selected. It' different from the free tech you get from philosophy or ToE.
I am glad one part of my game had some luck. The PRNG really wasn't nice in my early wars with India. :)

It is remotely possible that I am doing something different to everybody else. I am almost to the end of the IA, so I will have another shot at it shortly.

Aug 18, 2004, 04:08 AM
I am glad one part of my game had some luck. The PRNG really wasn't nice in my early wars with India. :)

It is remotely possible that I am doing something different to everybody else. I am almost to the end of the IA, so I will have another shot at it shortly.

If you find out how you do it, I would be gratefull to know!

Aug 18, 2004, 04:32 AM
If you find out how you do it, I would be gratefull to know!
I will try and keep some screen shots of what I do. On the other hand, in the face of widespread doubt over the reliability of picking your tech, I am not going to gurantee that it will work...

Aug 18, 2004, 06:51 AM
OK, I have to state categorically that you get a random tech as your free tech. My good luck in getting what I picked did not continue over the end of the IA, so my wishful thinking on this matter was no more than that.

Aug 19, 2004, 04:20 AM

For me, this was the Age of Missed Opportunities.

I started off by signing MAs against Ottomans with everyone else who was at war with them for money and techs and friendship. The ottomans could not hurt me at this point.

I declared war on carthage and captured a couple of cities on the dutch continent which gave me another supply of iron and horses.

Vikings declare on me so I take a couple of cities then sue for peace, and in the process realise there is saltpetre sitting under Aarhus, the city that the Vikings cheekily planted on my continent!

Towards end of middle ages, carthage is pretty much wiped out by a Dutch-Byz-India alliance.

Russia is pretty much destroyed by the ottomans and their sipahi

At the end of the middle ages, I am still holding my own. :mischief: I would only class India and the Dutch to be stronger. Persia, me, and the Ottomans on level pegging. The Vikings, the Russians, and Carthage, are history.

I should have massacred the dutch and taken their continent whilst I realised they had no saltpetre connected and no friends. This played a huge part in my downfall during the Industrial ages. :sad:

Aug 23, 2004, 03:04 AM Predator

I entered the Middle Ages in 710 BC….
710BC – Start researching chivalry
470BC – Complete SoZ in Adrianople
410BC – Sardica flips to Indians :(
30BC – Declare war on India and use dromon to trigger GA After this highlight the RNG kicks in and totally destrys my momentum.... :mad:
90AD – Make peace with India for PP, after taking 3 cities. Trade for Invention
370AD – Declare war on Indians again. Again RNG troubles :rolleyes:
430AD – Russians declare war on me
450AD – First Leader appears -> army. India eliminated
500AD – Start invasion of Russia
570AD - Declare war on Ottomans
590AD – Carthage declares war on me
670AD – Carthage and Persia have entered the Industrial Age… I’m only half an age behind :)
690AD – Carthage destroys the Russians
710AD – MT discovered. Start upgrading knights to cavalries
810AD – Conquest of the Ottoman/Russian island complete. Russia’s out of the game and the Ottomans have two island towns left. This part of our conquest has given us three other Leaders (2 armies, and Heroic Epic)
880AD – Make peace with the Ottomans for Astronomy, and then trade him metallurgy for navigation
890AD – Begin invasion of Carthaginian mainland
1120AD – Carthage eliminated from their starting island. Make peace for 5 cities
1170AD – Declare war on Vikings and Ottomans
1180AD – Ottomans eliminated
1230AD – Persia completes Theory of Evolution
1260AD – The Vikings are driven of their starting island. Peace for an additional city. He’s now reduced to three small towns. I now control 68% of the worlds population and 60% of the worlds land/coast. I’ll invade the Dutch for the remaining 6%….
Persia declares war on me. There was a luxuries deal in place, so remind me to thank Xerxes for the reverse WW. His RoP rape costs me a city though….
1270AD – Declare war on the Dutch and land on his island
1300AD – Domination win

This really was a two-faced game for me. During both my wars with India the RNG really hated me and I lost a large number of units, setting me back in my quest for world domination. In the later wars my RNG luck was a lot better though…
I didn’t research after discovering MT, but the AIs were all in the Industrial age (Persia had already built ToE), but the least advanced civ (me) was always the most powerful after I had eliminated India…
Was it just my game, or did the Dutch have extremely bad city placement in your games too? And I mean by AI standards, not human....

Firaxis: 8275
Jason: 8687

Aug 26, 2004, 02:59 PM

First Spoiler - 4000 BC to 850 BC (

Just a really quick post; it's already the 26th so time is really short this month.

I entered the MidAges in 1100 BC, and finally contacted Persia in 850 BC to qualify for the first spoiler. I needed about 8 turns to learn Republic, so the plan was learn Republic, revolt, upgrade a bunch of Warriors to MedInf then have at it with the Indians. So became a Republic (5 turn Anarchy) somewhere in the 500's BC, and once a Fur deal with the Indians expired, declared on them and moved the MedInf forward.

Lots of mistakes in this. I'd just recently obtained 3 more Luxuries through Tech trades; 2 from Persia (which was far behind) and 1 from Carthage. Declaring War cut our trade path, so I was now down 3 Luxuries (4 if you count the Fur trade I didn't renew with India); I'm sure this has trashed my reputation as well.

2nd mistake: with MedInf and large culture difference probably best to just raze Indian cities, to rebuild with nice Byzantine ones later. I timed my DoW for when I had Feudalism but India did not; so I'm facing Spearmen and occasionally Horsemen or Swordsmen. I've brought a Pike and 2 Trebuchets along, so my MedInf should stand up pretty well. Keeping the Indian cities meant diluting my forces (to defend them) and risking the occasional CF (which did occur.)

So I brought my force to the edge of Delhi's culture, but was down to only 5 MedInf available to push forward, which I thought was pushing it a bit. We settled into a grinding give and take; I founded a city that put me one movement turn away from Delhi but couldn't quite push through. Meanwhile, a second force was going up the coast capturing cities while the Delhi force held fast. Then War Elephants started to show up. At that point I got a GL, and formed a MedInf army, which gave me some capability to counter the WE's. India built KT in a tundra town down South; I sent an expedition to capture that. Finally I got enough force together to push through and take Delhi - 8 MedInfs vs 3 Pikes and 3 Spears did it. 350 AD (a long time!!). Got Theology and Invention as part of Peace along with a couple of India's outlying cities.

Research was essentially turned off during this time; I was waaaaaay behind, time to play catch up. The Ottoman, Carthage, Vikings and Russians were driving the research, and showed up as having Education, Chivalry and Gunpowder. So, going against form, I research Printing Press. My GA had started about 10 turns before when I finally had a chance at an Indian Galley, and I've built up a Treasury of around 2000 gold; 4 turns later I had PrintPress, and was able to get Gunpowder, and some gold and gpt, and one Luxury. Trading GunPowder, PrintPress and about 200 Gold got me Education from India. OK, the leaders have Banking, Astronomy and Chemistry as well; hmm, I'm still rather far behind. 390 AD.

Alright, I check and Carthage will sell me Astronomy for the least amount. I plan to do 3 of 4 turns research, then buy it to finish off. So in 420 AD, I buy Astronomy for about 300 Gold, then I manage to make trades to get Banking and Chemistry. I get a notice that Russia has started Newton's University; they are unique with Physics, and obviously have Theory of Gravity as well. I start on Physics. Metallurgy and Navigation are known by several, so I can start trading my WM for TM's or whatever Gold I can pick up.

Mid-400's, my GA ends, and that stupid Delhi flips on me. :mad: I'd been rushing Settlers out of it (Size 11 when I captured it, with Oracle and MOM), and was setting up a Palace Jump, just two turns away!! :cry: I have lots of units within their culture of course, but I'm not going to let him reinforce it so declare, and retake. Darn thing flips again 3 turns later, so this time I take it and raze it. My reputation is completely shot. So, in retrospect, Delhi flips, all the Northern coastal cities flip back before the end of the first War; I should have been razing and replacing all along. This time I get Persia and the Dutch to ally with me to help cement our relationships; they are rather far behind so the Techs I know are worthwhile to them.

Anyway I do about 5 turns of reseach on Physics; by this time it is known by 2 or 3 and the price is less than 100 Gold when I buy it - 470 AD. Russia is still exclusive on TofG, but no one knows Magnetism, so I start on it. Takes about 10 turns and Russia knows it before I finish (but wouldn't sell it for a reasonable price - wanted 350+ gold when I could do the last turn for < 200 research). I learn Magnetism and trade with Carthage for Metelurgy and the Ottomans (Mag and Metal for Tof G) to bring us all into the IA (570 AD). Russia and I got Nationalism, the Ottomans got Steam Power and wont trade it. I gift Persia up, and Xerxes gets Steam Power; now that it's diluted, he will trade it (ha ha, Osman!). Catherine lands a LongBow adjacent to Constantinople, and declares when I insist she withdraw it; she'd been itching for a fight for several turns and finally found an open space (without a Byzantine worker on it :) ) to land.

So I'm at war with India (Dutch and Persians allied with me), and Russia. I have Nationalism so I should be able to nullify the Indian WE's very quickly with drafted Riflemen; and Gandhi is rather far behind. I have trading possibilities to ally people with me against Russia (maybe Osman would like Nationalism, too?). And I know all Techs except MilTrad and Democracy (and Free Artistry too, I suppose; I don't think anyone knows Econ yet.) I see Ainwood's sick resource joke (ha ha). Plan to finish India (finally) and build up for a tumultuous IA. A very challenging game, and I can't say I'm comfortable yet.

Aug 27, 2004, 12:49 AM
Link to AA spoiler (

Which Describes How Your Feeling
I'm feeling fine with my game. I entered the MA in 730BC and on the very first turn 2 other civs join me and there is a massive uprising in a single Bcamp of 24 horse and 2 warriors. I received Feudalism and trade it for Engineering, Republic and Monotheism.

The Statue Got Me High
I issue DOW on India in 670BC, trigger my Golden Age and slowly capture all Indian cities. I generate my first great leader in 530BC. I learned Chivalry in 410BC and changed a perfectly timed prebuild over to Knight Templar which completes in 390BC, giving me a matched set of statues having completed the SoZ in the AA. Russia has the Great Library so I trade her Chivalry for an alliance against India. Generate my 2nd great leader in 350BC and get my 3rd in 50BC. In 50AD I capture Delhi and gain control of the Temple of Artemis. I eliminate India from the game in 310AD.

Hypnotist of Ladies
After healing and repositioning some troop I issue DOW on Russia in 360AD, signing the OTTOs as an ally. I lose a fully healed 3 man MDI army to the barb horses, killing 17 of the 24 horses in the process. I pillage Russia only supply of horses and only had to face a few knights. In 510AD I capture Moscow with the Pyramids and the Great Library. I learn Theology, Education, Banking, Astronomy, Chemistry, Economics, Physics, Metallurgy, & Theory of Gravity from Great Library (rendered the ToA & SoZ obselete). Complete my FP in 530AD (forgot to build it earlier). Capture Leo’s Workshop (540AD), Sistine Chapel (590AD) and The Hanging Gardens (640AD) from the Russians. In 650AD I learn Military Tradition and upgrade 10 knights to cavalry.

If I Wasn't Shy
In 710AD I sign peace deal with RUS gaining Magnetism & enter the Industrial Age, receive Steam Power free. I'm poised to attack the OTTOs now. Hopefully I can put a big dent in them before they get Sipahi. It will be a close race, but I can now transport my 2 remaining armies so I should be able put a big hurt on them.

Aug 28, 2004, 07:00 AM

Spoiler 1: Ancient Age (4000BC-800BC) (

Spoiler 2: Middle Ages (800BC-370AD)
Having decided to go for a Space/Diplomatic victory I continued concentrating on techs, trying to improve my own tech rate and to trade for techs with the AIs (especially the Scientific ones). I also started building some horses ready for upgrading to Cavalry for an attack on the Indians. I allowed the AIs to research the lower path though, and Military Tradition was not researched until after this spoiler period.

I managed to gain some territory on the Island to the E though, but was a little dissapointed that the plains could not be irrigated due to the lack of water. Those E islands came in pretty handy though as my Settler aiming for horses to the N of the starting position failed to claim them. The Dutch got there 1st.

Here's a minimap at 370AD:

Here's a log of my tech pace:
775BC Monarchy (Traded)
775BC Feudalism (Traded)
775BC Engineering (Traded)
470BC Theology (Researched)
310BC Chivalry (Traded)
310BC Invention (Traded)
150BC Education (Researched)
130BC Gunpowder (Traded)
70AD Chemistry (Researched)
90AD Printing Press (Traded)
90AD Music Theory (Traded)
90AD Astronomy (Traded)
150AD Banking (Traded)
230AD Physics (Researched)
270AD Economics (Traded)
270AD Navigation (Traded)
310AD Magnetism (Researched)
330AD Metallurgy (Traded)
370AD Theory of Gravity (Researched)
370AD Medicine (Free new era tech)

Aug 29, 2004, 09:53 AM
Well, this is my first GOTM. I've been playing Monarch lately, but I decided to go with conquest rather than open class, and I'm still getting my butt kicked. I've just limped into the Industrial era at 1090 AD.

At first, things seemed to be going fairly well in the Ancient Era. I built two carracks early and had contacted everybody by about 1800 BC, leading to a slight tech lead. Unfortunately, the seeds of my failure were already in place, exacerbated by the higher level of difficulty and the fact that I'm not playing an Industrious civilization.

I have this bad habit of not building granaries, leading to a lack of early population excess, so I tend not to build many workers early, leading to low production. Ordinarily, I can compensate for this, but at this level of difficulty with the large Indian civilization to the SW, it meant that I had very little built other than settlers, a smattering of troops, and the statue of Zeus. I also failed to secure the horses in the north. There was a big stack of barbarians up there, and I decided not to put a settlement up there until I could wipe it out--while I was building up, the Russians settled.

Shortly after building the statue of Zeus and close to the end of the ancient era, Carthage demanded some tech (currency, I think). Although they were stronger than me, they were also based halfway around the world, so I called their bluff. They had built a couple of cities on the islands to the east of my main region and I had already figured that would be my best direction to expand given India's strength. They allied with the Scandinavians, I countered by allying with the Dutch and began loading ancient cavalry & swordsmen onto my Dromons.

Then (as seems to be the universal pattern), the Indians attacked. Ouch. I was hoping that the relatively non-agressive Indian civilization would leave me alone, especially since we were trading partners. No such luck. Worse, during the painfully long time it had taken to research republic, the Indians had gotten a jump on me technologically and were building war elephants. I triggered my golden age by attacking a carthaginian galley and basically had to pour most of my energy into building enough pikemen to hold India off at the city I had built at the isthmus. It was enough, but I wasn't able to make much of a dent in the east, though I did build three cities over there. Eventually, I was able to buy the Indians off for 70 gold, which I made up (more or less) with my peace treaties with Carthage & Scandinavia. No sooner had we made peace than I was shocked to find one of my cities culture flip to India--and with it one of my critical ivories. I wasn't prepared for this because I usually play a builder approach and rarely am greatly outcultured by my opponents.

Given this, I felt I needed to spend most of the ancient era building culture & economics to prevent myself from getting culture-flipped out of existence. Even so, I lost the isthmus city I had fought so hard to protect, despite having built a library and temple there and having five military units posted. I lost another city when the volcano in the south erupted. Choosing not to rebuild there, the Russians landed there, but their city was promptly crisped as well. Eventually, toward the end of the ancient era, the Indians settled there and have not been buried so far.

Although this was mostly a time of entrenchment, I did fight a short war against Scandinavia. They had captured one of the Carthaginian cities near me, so I decided to grab it before they could reinforce it. So now I have horses. Despite my efforts at building libraries and universities, I gradually fell behind in the tech race, not reaching the industrial era until 1090 AD. I currently have 12 cities--eight on my mainland, two on the southern coast of the Dutch continent and two on the island to the south of that. I'm ranked 6th or 7th by most measures, stronger than Scandinavia and about on par with the Dutch.

I had tried to keep myself optimistic by recalling that I have won from a long way back on Monarch level, that things generally improve a lot for me in the Industrial era. Unfortunately, the conditions that allowed me to come back don't look to be met here. The decision not to rebuild in the volcano-plagued city has come back to haunt me, as there turns out to be coal nearby. No one has any coal available to trade, and without railroads, I just won't be able to ramp up my economy. Also, the Theory of Evolution has already been built.

I think my last hope is a war with the Dutch. They have coal that they haven't discovered yet, and if I can seize that resource, I might be able to make a move. They don't have riflemen & cavalry yet, so I might be able to take them. Perhaps Carthage will help. I'll need a fast war, though, because I don't want to have to switch out of democracy. Maybe I can still get some mileage out of my piles of Ancient cavalry.