This poll will investigate the need for polling in the 6 turnchats we have left, with the present rate of 19 turns for 4 turnchats, we are now down to 4,75 turns per turnchat on the average. With the present pace, having 6 turnchats left of our crippled administration, we stand to not come any longer than 46 turns in term one, which is about half the hundred they originally planned for.

For the average of 27 turns, or if we are extremely fortunate, Chieftess guessed 60 turnchats, which means we have 40 turns left under all circumstances, there is only room for Iron Working and the Monarchy Route.

I plan to poll only Peace Agreements and Declarations of War in this term, as technologies do not allow any more leeway.

So the question is, how many polls would you like from the Foreign Affairs Ministry Term 1, from 13 August through 31 August 2004, for the less than 40 terms we have left.

A. One Poll
B. Two Polls
C. Three Polls
D. Four Polls
E. Five Polls
F. Six Polls

There is no abstain vote allowable in this vote, as I am not in need for more constitutional crisis votes destabilizing our ramshackle system...

i would abstain(no option), just post polls as needed, we dont need to set a number

There is no abstain vote allowable in this vote, as I am not in need for more constitutional crisis votes destabilizing our ramshackle system...

Well I can predict that Ravensfire would be forced to vote or dont vote :mischief:

I would abstain too, just because you don't know how many polls you will need.

I abstain, because polls should be conducted by the citizens to indicate their will to their elected representatives, or by those represenatives themselves, so that those representatives obey the will of the people. The Department of Foreign Affairs is in no way justified to start polls on any matter not related to Foreign Affairs.

You're view of this government seems a bit off, really. You're opposed to tiebreaking polls and abstaining, and you think everything's your job....

Speaking of your job, why don't you have a poll relating to the Babylonians? Or do a little entry about them (cities, techs, etc). Something.

Epimethius,
I know as little as you do about the Babylonians, I have access to the exact same data. They have a warrior, they offer BW , Pottery and 10 gold for the wheel.
This is supposed to be polled, and CG already did that. I did not protest that CG did that,
I am not flaming citizens, be it ministers or citizens, or judiciaries, for taking citizen action where vacation ministers fall short. Instead of safeguarding The Domestic Office, you left it idle even though Noldodan was away, if you took some action, instead of doing everything else, developed a fair/effective system on city polling, I would be more than happy, and rather back you up next time.

I have realized that Term One is not going to deliver many Foreign Affairs results, and my motivation has , as you witnessed, fallen tremendoulsy. However, there are many bright and friendly people that may run this better than me. And Cyc was right, I should never have taken action in the absence of vacation ministers, and done absolutely nothing. But Epimethius, if it makes your day in Chicago great, please go on with your steadfast harangue, and fix none of the Demogame problems...

Babylonians
Cities: 1 (total pop: 1)
-Babylon (capital); size: 1; est. culture: 18; location unknown
Army Size: unknown; larger than ours, minimum 1 warrior, likely a spearman
Knowledge: Bronze Working, Ceremonial Burial, Pottery
Treasury: 10 gold; income unknown
Embassy: No
Spy: No
Government: Despotism

There. That is what I meant. That was all discovered rather easily. They offer no cities, so they only have Babylon. Babylon was founded a turn before us, so it has one more culture, and its population is easily looked up in f11. They have their starting techs, plus pottery. Rather than coming up with a complex way to do our job, I'd perfer if you at least try yours a little first.

I'm Deputy Domestic and Naming. I'll fix domestic problem is Noldy is out, and I'll tell DaveShack what to name things. Beyond that I'll do what I can as a citizen to make this work better. You should fix FA, and do what you can do as a citizen elsewhere.

Noldodan returned in time for the end of his run off election. To my knowledge he has never been out as Domestic Minister, or else I think he would have told me, considering how much we confer on AIM. So I have not been failing to do my job in any capacity.

Question is Epithemus, you want me to say nothing about the other areas as FA?
Remember I speak as a citizen in other polls as well, but I recon that most people are smart enough to see that I am also a citizen, and I never pretended to take over your job. The data you got from the game are all nice and dandy, but the essentials are already being polled, they want to give all their gold (10) and their techs to get wheel.

Cities 1, units 1-2 Civopedia and all these things are given, no need to make a longer posting on that. No need to sit down and do useless clerical jobs when the poll is already up. However, when I know more of the land, we get more data, their moves and so on, then I can work in that capacity. Anyways, at this stage, all civs are despotic.

What I was driving at is that if you like to present citizens with lots of information, as you've shown you do, then maybe you should do so in your actual juristiction, not Noldodan's. You can say that's all unnecessary, but it seems a bit hypocritical considering you proposed we present each city with a break down of how each tile in the radius would operate under every form of government. What I would like more than anything else would simply be you trying to do your job before you go and do anyone else's. I'd also like to see you stop being so insulted and insulting towards anyone who disagrees with you.

I just want you to do your job, and leave me and Noldodan to do ours.

Epithemius, then you could take on the other ones as well, many people had opinions both on procedure, tiles and so on. However, you decided to pick on me of all people.
That is fair, my style may not appeal to everyone, but when you dig deep inside your heart, you feel I trespassed into your domain by spending more energy on it, and getting recognitition on the work I put in, that you felt offensive.

However, feel free to do exactly as you want on the FA. after all, it is the will of the people that decides, and everything you poll will be used against you: :)

i would prolly like a poll in between each turnchat with more here and there if needed

Oh, what the heck...... Let's say six polls. :D

You know, Provo, if I end up being the only one that votes in this poll, I will hold you to my will. :lol:

LOL Donnie, I always liked your open and straight thinking, I am as now your sole representative :) And I will do all six polls.... :)

IMPORTANT!!!


I voted for ONE POLL :)

This poll would consist of the following options:

Go to War
Keep the Peace

Now Provo has two people under his charge. However, since I am a selfdeclared NEWBIE at this demogame, I voted randomly.

Really, the number of polls really dosent matter, as long as they are really nessesary for the running of the demogame. FA is important, and its important that citizens participate.

PS: you really should have added a Abstain/As many as are needed.

I would really abstain, but to make my voice officially heard I voted for six.
I think you should take as many polls as you need.

The people decides how many polls I need, I cannot make that decision on my own.

(For the more insightful, this is also a constitutional test)

Hey, a poll of polls. How about that! I voted 6 just to give you the leeway you'll need. I, too would have voted "as many as you need" but,...anyway good luck.

Why there is no abstain posibility??? I think that most of peasants like me don't understand that poll ;) I will not vote then :p

It seems Abstain is missing on purpose. And "As many as needed" is missing as well.
That leaves 6 as the most flexible option. But don't take that literally.

I don't understand the poll either. You need as many polls as necessary to run the nation effectively. Yes, I really find amusing voting on polls & the like, but sometimes major decisions require multiple polls, a decisive leader or whatnot. Other occasions, you need one poll of:
"Do we need to change anything?". We must avoid having a poll for everything, as certain decisions are simply best left to the people who went to the trouble of actually following the game and deserve to make such decisions in the first place.

What I would really appreciate would be a regular flow of information made available to people similar to that in post #7 by Epimethius. Generally this would be made in conjunction with other ministries, like FA and trade to provide a list of resources/techs to trade (and what's stopping us like oceans, deep rooted hatred for the other nation, etc), FA and military to provide a report on prospects of military conflict and potential success (military strengths, infrastructure: can our military walk straight up to their capital or do we have to hack our way though mountains or lack of roads) etc. The list goes on and on.

i voted for six as it is the closest to infinite :D

No abstain option, so a null vote, public poll.

-- Ravensfire

I would vote for an unlimited, if there was that option so instead I voted for 6.

Wow, I'm not the only one who voted for four polls. However, my vote was semi-random and partially meant to be different, since I agree that the number of polls cannot be predetermined.

As people has noticed in several other threads, there has been an impending polling fatigue, and a fatigue on filibustering and untimely delay and congestion of the decisionmaking system. Some champions for the "pollijng to death" regime, has conceded, and the new winds call for an appropriate balance between election campaigns, elections,
discussion threads, polls, interdepartmental cooperation and finally in-game decisions.

So this was in many ways a "political poll" created in awareness of the accelerating polling fatigue and general discontent with a clogged and inefficient system. No individuals are to blame for this system, as we are going through the initial child diseases in firmly establishing the system. However, the transition has been harder than it should, as certain proponents has been more inclined to personal persecution, destructive criticism, outright rejection and general aggressive "political correctness".

However, the majority of the demogame players have proven patient, disciplined, reflected and fair, and I am proud to work with you and to serve you. I admit, maybe one of the few that admits a mistake this early, that I went well above my head in trying to raise a discussion on the city localization decisions. I only hope that some of you found the Japanese Ringi system an interesting read as a conceptual exercise, and
should rather be interpreted as an attempt to raise general awareness of the decision-flow in Japanatica. From some of you I have received constructive criticism, valid inputs, praise and analytical support, and I will thank you greatly for those actions. However, destructive criticism, condemnation, stigmatization and in general blemishing a persons character for political gain or for the arousal of verbo-sadistic gratification, I can sense almost as fast as it is typed - and will hardly be met with the
the empathy, submission, humiliation and self depravation the protagonists crave.

In short, we need to focus on the issues, and not the people, but personal attacks will
be handled as nothing but personal attacks, and will be responded to.

Yet, this change of opinion has allowed the ministers to do part of the job they reflected for (and don't tell the situation was like that last turnchat), will create a law reform balancing the mandates, thanks to inspirational, progressive and cooperative leaders as Daveshack, Chieftess, Cyc, Noldodan, Sarevok, Donovan, Curufinwe and Rik
Meleet. I will also state that there is no law separating the legal office of the respective ministries and the role as citizens, so when we speak as "private citizens" we also have our other tasks in mind. That we as ministers/citizens are concerned about the delivery of work we depend on to operate from other ministries, should be encouraged and supported, not condemned -"stay out of my kitchen".

I did not react negatively to Civgenerals fine initiative by polling the Babylonian trade, and another poll would be redundant. That a foreign ministry is interested in the other
ministries, and where they are at, should be considered healthy and rational, not as a trangsgression of their domain, all our jobs are public offices, not private property.
That I campaigned on iron and monarchy, was crystal clear, and my consistency in living up to the goals of that campaign should be undisputed.

However, if the people in general wants me as one political person, or to constantly differentiate the roles minister/citizen, they should tell me, and two individuals is not enough to change that. (does it make sense, we are 30 people, and everyone knows what everyone stands for, an artificial division is nothing but silly "political correctness"). So if people wants me to stop commenting or providing public inputs as they allegedly think that jeopardizes the other ministries, please let me know.
As far as I am concerned, I have had policy positions as everyone, but never assumed
command of other ministries as such, I have just come up with proposals.

This is also why the critical voices backed out when I challenged them to court marshal me, as their case was weaker than the average British tabloid journalist.

So, finally I would also make people more aware on the quality work of Comnenus and Sir Donald III, as well as Ravenfire, add to the excellent work done by the Judiciary, and make certain that there are guidelines that do not create successive delays in the
game, allow representative democracy to work in place of polling terror and to finally make this game a fun and enjoyable experience people can thrive on.

Thank you people :)

Provolution, I have NEVER, EVER attacked you personally in anyway, and my criticisms of your job were just that, CRITICISMS. I am sorry if you take them more personally then they were intended, but I have never meant to insult you in any way. You have insulted me, however, but I do not intend to go down to the level of returning that. I take great offense at this vendetta you are convinced I have against you, because no such vendetta exists. You elude to it in every other sentence, which considering it doesn't exist is a bit much. I simply want you to do your job. I do not want you to jump off a cliff. So please stop insinuating that I do. I supported and worked with you during the elections, and I have tried to support you after them. I did not like your proposed system because it was far too bureaucratic, but me and Noldodan were planning to give it a chance anyway. Nor did I like how you simply went and set it up, rather than letting us do it as it's our job. And I do not like your appearant intensions of running government polls of domestic, trade, and tech issues under the guise of foreign affairs. But I have never insulted you, so I would like to ask that you stop saying that I have.

However, destructive criticism, condemnation, stigmatization and in general blemishing a persons character for political gain or for the arousal of verbo-sadistic gratification, I can sense almost as fast as it is typed - and will hardly be met with the the empathy, submission, humiliation and self depravation the protagonists crave.

This is what I mean. Where the hell did you get the idea I, or anyone else, was doing this? I supported you extensively in an election, and I felt until very recently that you were the best possible choice for the position, regardless of whether of not you tend to go beyond your juristiction at times. I have absolutely nothing to gain from hurting you, and I was your ally. So I don't know where you got the idea that I'm trying to shoot down your political viability. And I am not criticism your problems of overextending your juristiction to arouse myself. In all honesty I greatly dislike doing it.

In short, we need to focus on the issues, and not the people, but personal attacks will be handled as nothing but personal attacks, and will be responded to.

There have been, nor ever will be, any personal attacks coming from my "side." And I think your policy of responding to attacks is a little funny, since usually if people go to the effort of putting that sentence in to say they'll be ignored honorably. :p

As far as I am concerned, I have had policy positions as everyone, but never assumed command of other ministries as such, I have just come up with proposals.

And thank you for your proposal. We were considering it. We probably would have started it ourselves (and still may), until you did it for us. That is beyond your juristiction as a minister or a citizen to simply set up someone else's department.

This is also why the critical voices backed out when I challenged them to court marshal me, as their case was weaker than the average British tabloid journalist.

I do not want to take you to court because I feel that you simply need to back off, not be disposed of. You have the resources to be a perfectly good Foreign Affairs Minister, and it would be a horrible shame for us to lose you because of you doing other people's jobs and not your own.

This is what I have wrong with your idea:
1) Foreign Affairs has every right to poll the people, and by all means should. But it should only do so within the juristiction of its own instructions, and leave other people, however inept, to do their own. Interdepartmental cooperation is wonderful, but its different from having one department do all the work.
2) The number of polls should be decided according to how many are needed, not an arbitrary number. So I think this poll is unecessary. When the ministers, such as yourself and Noldodan, feel that an important decision requires the people's council, he will start a poll. There is no need to arrange it beforehand, because we don't know what will happen beforehand. And if the minister doesn't bring an important issue to a poll, a CC can be called against him.
3) Admittingly polling fatigue comes from this, but it can be cleared up easily by simply having the ministers start a poll whenever they need to, giving longer time between turnchats, being more careful when polling, and having the ministers break any ties as they are allowed to do. As you said yourself, these problems are simply baby deseases while we settle into the system.

As for the problems with Domestic polls, that is because the domestic problem was complex at first (since it was an important choice to make with so many possibilities) and general ineptitude. It was not fillibustering. This will in no way solve those problems.

And in generally I would perfer that as Foreign Affairs Minister you do your job and keep the public, through your thread, up to date about the other civilizations and our relations with them, and consult the people when it comes to pressing matters of treaties and war. If you would like to try and propose things for other departments, that is fine, so long as you don't do it under the guise of Foreign Affairs. And if you want to run other people's departments for them, don't. You were elected to FA, not DA, not Science, not Military, not Tech, not Justice, not Military, not Culture, not President. And you were elected there with my help.

Epithemius

I am very glad you came forward and stated your intentions on the issues, and I am sorry I took things a bit personal, due to the wording, but I am also glad you cleansed the air with this last posting. This makes it easier to continue in the same vein, and I already agree with a lot of the fine work you have done in drafting city locations, participating in threads and so on. However, you read my non-specified person criticism as being against you as a person, that is wrong. However,as you now have cleansed the air, and I hope we can resume the cooperation as before with clear roles and backed by a system that is not polling people to death, let us do our work.

I will refrain from the Domestic Affairs office, already promised Noldodan I would never run for it, and there is no competition from the foreign affairs. However, Domestic was not flying well in the beginning, causing chaos on both city localization debates, and that is why I brought in some input, which I partly regret I did. However, giving inputs made some change. Still, you rejected my inputs flatly, I can even quote you on that, but Noldodan gave it a fair shot, if I remember correctly.

However, Epithemius, the most heavy criticism that sanctioned moderator intervention was that originated from Fier Canadien, and my answer was a direct response to that.
So please do not take all my deterrent moves as personal. I will do as you wanted me to do before the final elections, and I hope we can extend the cooperation already firmly developed between MA, FA and TA , to include Domestic as well.

I have received valid inputs from you, but never from Fier Canadien, so you see my view on things, so I think we may well work something out.

I also backed you in the elections Epithemius, as I backed Noldodan, so I hope that we can get past this unnecessary conflict and make this game more fun and enjoyable.

I would refuse to vote on such a poll.