invaded USA during the civil war.


It is a long time that i want this debate going, but was somehow avoided in reply post. So now here is the thread.

What i want is anticipation/prediction on how the futur of america would have been.

Let assume that the chinese have the moral high ground on human right as well as a strong military hedge. The rest of the chinese cultur stay the same.


Chinese invade america to stop slavery, native american abuse, as well as the north-south civil war.


What is the futur according to YOU? :scan: :borg:

The chinese would have been royally waxed on the high seas by the british empire.

The chinese would have been royally waxed on the high seas by the british empire.
Agreed :lol:
Doesn't this belong in World history

The chinese would have been royally waxed on the high seas by the british empire.

to say the least!

its a far more likelly (but still absurdlly unlikelly) that said britich would have trtied to retake us damned colonial and restore the proper order of things in the new world ;)

We'd have another colony in the far Pacific.

The chinese would have been royally waxed on the high seas by the british empire.

Please i know my english is not perfect, but at least this was very clear, quote,


as well as a strong military hedge. Chinese IS the world power, ok. Clear now, so good bye royal navy, they would have been sunk in a ratio 10-1.

Agreed :lol:
Doesn't this belong in World history

It is not history, it is anticipation, but if a mod want to move it, i surrender.

If the Chinese had invaded, the British would have invaded.

The British were involved anyway, mostly the British-Canadians, but also with diplomats in London. They supported the north, despite having invested interests in trade with the south -- which the north was blocking.

We'd have another colony in the far Pacific.
Afaik, there was no substancial US Navy in the Pacific at that time.

okay, first of all USA would have been exactly NO concern to the chinese, as they would have bigger fish to fry "French colonialism, japanese expansionism, russian expansionism"

Second of all this theory would mean that the entire European world never developed the way it did causing the chinese and its still decent but not as powerful as the europeans ability to conquer, which would probably mean the Americas were never colonized to begin with.

Nah, this scenario goes way beyond alternative history into just a stupid question with and equally stupid answer.

So basically, the question could apply to any nation that could invade if they had a strong military. They'll just be a world power for a while, and then like every other world power, fade away eventually.

The Chinese were comparatively very backward in the 1800s, so an invasion isn't going to be viable. Furthermore, they also don't really care about what happens in the outside world, so there is no motivation. In fact, the two items, them being isolationistic and them being no longer technologically advanced, are very closely related.

I am starting to :aargh: :wallbash: [pissed]

Various quote from various ''evader''

If the Chinese had invaded, the British would have invaded.
-----------------------

Me, no a sunked navy dont invade, chinese is the world power.

Quote,

okay, first of all USA would have been exactly NO concern to the chinese, as they would have bigger fish to fry "French colonialism, japanese expansionism, russian expansionism"
-------------

Me. Nice way to evade my thread subject again. You know that a nation can , within a few years ( 10-20) become a super power, think about german after WW1, or USA during WW2. So let say, that the chinese , during those day, within 15 year, became the world superpower. Please just follow my thread ruel, ok, or dont post.


Quote,

The Chinese were comparatively very backward in the 1800s, so an invasion isn't going to be viable. Furthermore, they also don't really care about what happens in the outside world, so there is no motivation.
--------------

Me. Again, you dont follow my thread rule. No grudge, but if you cannot follow my thread rule, dont post.


3 ''evader'' in row, come on.

Im not evading your question, I am a fan of alternatige history, I read Harry Turtledove novels and others.

My point is that this scenario is so impossible to concieve without drastically changing the dynamic of the ENTIRE world during the imperialist era. This would essentially mean the Chinese would have had to emerge victorious from the opium wars and that China was never colonized. This would alternatively mean they did not adapt the western military structure that defeated them in the Opium wars.

If this is the case they could not have been the chief military power of the world, and the combined, united forces of the United States and the CSA would have easily repelled the Chinese invasion.

In a way, the Chinese did invade in that time period. The many thousands of Chinese immigrants were instrumental in the building of the transcontinental railroad. So many Chinese came here in the 19th century that laws were passed to stop all further immigration from China.

Well if the chinese had become a world power, I don't think the Americas would have been a concern to them. If they did "invade" America, all it really would have been would be them establishing colonies on the west coast, and they would share colonies in the Americas like the other European powers. Like the other European superpowers those colonies would eventually fall under American control either by them buying it or taking it by force. The most significant change would be with China as a world power Japan may have never gained the power to become an empire in the 20th Century and have never played a role in WWII.

invaded USA during the civil war.


It is a long time that i want this debate going, but was somehow avoided in reply post. So now here is the thread.

What i want is anticipation/prediction on how the futur of america would have been.

Let assume that the chinese have the moral high ground on human right as well as a strong military hedge. The rest of the chinese cultur stay the same.


Chinese invade america to stop slavery, native american abuse, as well as the north-south civil war.


What is the futur according to YOU? :scan: :borg:

they would have died suffering through a winter trying to cross 3000miles of uncharted territory(to them anyway) Then all the south(which I assume they would fight against since they were the ones with slaves) would just wait them out since they would be out of supplies soon (since they wouldn't have a supply line being half a world away)

If they were a supper power capable of sinking the entire british navy they would have won most likely, but if we are going to totally break the laws of nature we might as well assume the giant radioactive monkeys working in league with the south would have conquered all of europe in the name of the confederacy.

Im not evading your question, I am a fan of alternatige history, I read Harry Turtledove novels and others.

My point is that this scenario is so impossible to concieve without drastically changing the dynamic of the ENTIRE world during the imperialist era. This would essentially mean the Chinese would have had to emerge victorious from the opium wars and that China was never colonized. This would alternatively mean they did not adapt the western military structure that defeated them in the Opium wars.

If this is the case they could not have been the chief military power of the world, and the combined, united forces of the United States and the CSA would have easily repelled the Chinese invasion.

Ok, let say that the little history twist happen here, before america discovery, the chinese were a sea power at that time, their vessel was much bigger and stronger then the europpen one.

Quote,

Between 1405-07, Zheng made his maiden voyage to India. He made another six overseas journeys to reach as far as East Africa in 1433.



Zheng took thousands of officials and sailors, up to 28,000 with the largest of his fleets which numbered over 100 vessels.



Unlike European explorers, whose main object was to find colonies, gold, spices and slaves, Zheng was ordered to convey the emperor's authority, goodwill and gifts to overseas states. Zheng He has long been regarded by the Chinese as an imperial envoy of friendship, rather than an explorer in the real sense.

--------------

But later IIRC, the emperor ordered to stop sea exploration and naval technology was lost. So let say that china keep rising and become slowly an isolationist power. A few hundred year later, the clash i am talking about occur.


Oups, edit link:http://www.china.org.cn/english/travel/82064.htm

Okay Ill play ball, the chinese would have conquered the USA and emancipated the slaves themselves, then left and not formed any colonies. Probably forcing the south back into union and having incredibly good relations with the north for doing their dirty work for them.

a sunked navy dont invade, chinese is the world power.
:rotfl:

You're really nuts. British Navy was hardly sunk in the 1800s. And China could not have harrassed the Americans, because Britain was invading China at the time (various instances throughout the century).

Here's a picture of British troops camped in China just one year before the American Civil War..

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/images3/china1860pehtang.jpg

Now I ain't saying the British were wonderfully succesful, but the Chinese were hardly in a position to go off waging war (emphasis).

Another good one, ( Help XIII, ;) ).


Quote,


A new view, put forward by a British amateur historian Gavin Menzies, saying that Chinese admiral Zheng He had discovered most parts of the world by the mid-15th century and reached America 72 years earlier than Columbus, has drawn attention from Chinese researchers.


Link:http://www.china.org.cn/english/Life/52176.htm


Soooo..... :p

And on top of this, quote,


Columbus sailed to America in St. Maria (eighty-five feet) in 1492. Zheng He sailed from China to many places throughout South Pacific, Indian Ocean, Taiwan, Persian Gulf and distant Africa in seven epic voyages from 1405 to 1433 ,some 80 years before Columbus's voyages.

Zheng He flag "treasure ship" is four hundred feet long - much larger than Columbus's.
In the drawing below, the two flagships are superimposed to give a clear idea of the relative size of these two ships.

link:http://www.chinapage.com/zhenghe.html

So. The Vikings discovered N.America before China did.

You still haven't responded for how China was supposed to invade America, while Britain was simultanously invading China... :confused:

Most likely the US wouldn't have formed if the Chinese had continued to explore. No slaves to free, no civil war. Since this make believe, I would say South America would had been the place the US (or something like it) would have formed instead. Easier for China to trade with S. America (at the time) than N. America.

as well as a strong military hedge. Chinese IS the world power, ok. Clear now, so good bye royal navy, they would have been sunk in a ratio 10-1.
That is simply wrong. There was a war, and the Chinese were sunk by the Royal Navy. Infact, the Chinese were later trying to fight Ironclads with Junks! :dubious:

Okay Ill play ball, the chinese would have conquered the USA and emancipated the slaves themselves, then left and not formed any colonies. Probably forcing the south back into union and having incredibly good relations with the north for doing their dirty work for them.

But if they find that native american should regain control, they have similar ethnies and old related cultur, no?

You still haven't responded for how China was supposed to invade America, while Britain was simultanously invading China... :confused:


Britain wouldnt have invade china, the history twist, like i said , happen around 1400-1500. Read my previous post and link about Chinese navy in 1400-1500 period. Immortal already understood that.

Let say the emperor during that time, didnt ordered a ban on sea exploration. My guess is he was jealous of Zhang He, thats why.

Maybe, but Ive read literature about the chinese rather less than decent treatment of the hmong In Laos. I wager to bet the natives would be considered so primative that the Chinese would have either welcomed american "civilization" of them (with the chinese playing a role in what civilized is) or simply been apathetic to their plight.

Britain wouldnt have invade china, the history twist, like i said , happen around 1400-1500. Read my previous post and link about Chinese navy in 1400-1500 period.

Ok, well then that has nothing to do with the American Civil War. N.American continent would have been a very different place.

But, you know, the Chinese were still going to be limited to the west coast... on the other side is the huge Spanish Empire.

The English were also exploring, and using cannons, while the Chinese rellied on bows and arrows.

Maybe, but Ive read literature about the chinese rather less than decent treatment of the hmong In Laos. I wager to bet the natives would be considered so primative that the Chinese would have either welcomed american "civilization" of them (with the chinese playing a role in what civilized is) or simply been apathetic to their plight.


Yes the cultur clash, how would it be ?


From previous link,


Unlike European explorers, whose main object was to find colonies, gold, spices and slaves, Zheng was ordered to convey the emperor's authority, goodwill and gifts to overseas states. Zheng He has long been regarded by the Chinese as an imperial envoy of friendship, rather than an explorer in the real sense.


So it seem that the chinese during the 1400-1500 period had effectvly the moral high ground, isnt it?

If they had decided to continue sea exploration, they wouldnt lost their naval knowledge, but how would have this affected their friendly cultur ?

Im rather optomistic when it comes to oriental culture, mostly because I have never met a far-eastern asian I havent immediately liked.

If things got too bloody, then I think they might step in.

Culture clash is not about agression, it is about way of life.

If the native americans believe that animals are a manifestation of spirits, and the Chinese disagree... then each thinks the other is uncivilised/backward/unenlightened/barbaric... and even if they stay peaceful, one is not going to live happilly under the leadership of the other.

There were cities in N.America long before that. An entire civilisation that vanished. I read a theory that unknown invaders took everything, and the cities (carved into the rock) were abandoned.

Ok, well then that has nothing to do with the American Civil War. N.American continent would have been a very different place.


The English were also exploring, and using cannons, while the Chinese rellied on bows and arrows.


1.- No, if the chinese keep a isolationism attitude, as well as their naval knowledge, until the civil war.

2.-Who discovered gun powder ? and IIRC, before they loose their naval knowledge ( emperor politic), they had powerfull warshipe, with rocket like weapon.

Most likely the US wouldn't have formed if the Chinese had continued to explore.


But if they had continued to explore and kept a isolationism attitude ( keep growing and getting stronger) ?

What i mean is , it seem to me that stoping sea exploration, was somehow a hold/bind on technical evolution, and this allow the brit to mess up with them.

Moved to History.

I'll pass judgement on its final fate later.

I would also add the Russian pressure on Central Asia in this case, and with China trying to incur influence in America, Russia would have taken more of Central Asia, possibly parts of Northern China and the xinjiang Province.

But if they had continued to explore and kept a isolationism attitude ( keep growing and getting stronger) ?




Explore and Isolations to me don't go together. The reason N. America and S. America was found was ..explore..finding a faster route to trade. A country with a isolation policy will not follow this route. They will trade with the closes possible , if any.

The "what if" situation has too many prerequisites to be taken seriously. There's no way that China could have sunken the Brittish Fleet. The Brittish were the supreme power in the world at that time and already demonstrated their naval prowess in the Opium wars against the Chinese in the early 19th century. Plus, China was very weak during the 19th and 20th centuries until the Communist revolution. Colonial powers such as Japan, Russia, England, France, and the U.S. often quibbled over 'Zones of Influence' in China and often intervened because of its weakness. For instance, GB and the U.S. (and I think 1 or 2 other powers) helped the Chinese government defeat the Boxer rebellion of 1911 so that they could retain their lucrative trade dealings in China. Without their help, I doubt the Chinese government would have been successful. There are simply too many assumptions to seriously debate this. One of your changes in history (the continuance of naval research in 1433) is so far back, that if it had taken place, who knows what China would be like in 1860. Maybe they would have been a naval superpower, maybe not. There's simply too many scenarios to tell.

Closed. Scope is too wide and unfocused.