The celebrations will run into 2005, and end with a grand memorial conference in July of 2005. A number of exhibitions, seminars, quiz contests, lectures and summer camps will be staged.

Link;http://www.china.org.cn/english/travel/82064.htm

What would have happen if they had continue to spread their friendly cultur through naval exploration ?

Quote,

Columbus sailed to America in St. Maria (eighty-five feet) in 1492. Zheng He sailed from China to many places throughout South Pacific, Indian Ocean, Taiwan, Persian Gulf and distant Africa in seven epic voyages from 1405 to 1433 ,some 80 years before Columbus's voyages.

Zheng He flag "treasure ship" is four hundred feet long - much larger than Columbus's.
In the drawing below, the two flagships are superimposed to give a clear idea of the relative size of these two ships

link:http://www.chinapage.com/zhenghe.html


You can also refer to this closed thread:http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=97648

ahh...If only the Son of Wudi hadn't been fat and lazy and continued his father's ambitions, ahh...the Empire under Heaven, streching from China, to Africa, to America, then back to China...sailing into Portugal before they start sailing...ahh, the world is at peace... I really like saying ahh...

ahh...If only the Son of Wudi hadn't been fat and lazy and continued his father's ambitions,

But why did he ban and destroy china naval technology ? Was he jealous of Zheng He ?

I want some one to clear that for me, before we virtualy change his mind and the history at the same time.

IIRC factions within the palace were fighting. Since the losing one had backed the voyages, the winning one took a contrary position and was anti-exploration. They influenced the emperor to shut down all naval operations as soon as they took control.

It was an epic court struggle: the eunuchs, who had long supported trade and those ideals, and the Confucian scholars, who were quite conservative and isolationist. Unfortunately the latter won.

It was an epic court struggle: the eunuchs, who had long supported trade and those ideals, and the Confucian scholars, who were quite conservative and isolationist. Unfortunately the latter won.

Thank you, what would have happened if they had loose ?

China would go on to discover the new world(some say they already did) and sail into Portugal before the portuguese began sailing, and become the Superpower by making all the European monarchs their vassals.

Had the chinese contacted the Americas, it is less likely that they would have tried to conquer the NA civs. Probably trade and cultural exhanges (plus diseases). The Aztecs, etc. would have been better prepared for Europeans and less vunerable. Perhaps they would have lasted another couple of hundred years or so.

But why did he ban and destroy china naval technology ? Was he jealous of Zheng He ?

I want some one to clear that for me, before we virtualy change his mind and the history at the same time.It shld be the son of the Yongle emperor.

The Wu emperor ruled in the 1st century BCE. :p

It was an epic court struggle: the eunuchs, who had long supported trade and those ideals, and the Confucian scholars, who were quite conservative and isolationist. Unfortunately the latter won.The background factors were more complicated than that. For one thing, the voyages cost a lot and brought nothing much of value in return, by themselves. Whatever profits there was in foreign trade remained in private shipping shipping, as had been for centuries and would be for centuries.

For another, the state had to meet more costs, incl increasing military costs, as the Mongols began to stir again, and the military system as established by the Hongwu emperor had deteriorated.

The mandarins had a point.

The Aztecs, etc. would have been better prepared for Europeans and less vunerable. Perhaps they would have lasted another couple of hundred years or so.

Interesting point, i know that somehow the aztec deeify the spanish when they meet them, and the spanish did nothing to educate them, they have slaughter them instead.

But i doubt a friendly chinese contact would have lead to the same atrocity, so the aztec, who know, could have totaly prevent south america colonization.

The more i am thinking about this history twist, the more i think it would have been a major difference in today world. The brithish empire surely wouldnt have extend their power as far as they did.

Do we have a super computer history simulation programm ? Is it feasible ?

Yes its called Civ 3, if you run it on a super computer;)

China would go on to discover the new world(some say they already did) and sail into Portugal before the portuguese began sailing, and become the Superpower by making all the European monarchs their vassals.


if te arab caliphate at the height ofits power didnt make europe bow, its pure fallicy to even concienve that 50, or 100 big ships would make any European nation bow

Interesting point, i know that somehow the aztec deeify the spanish when they meet them, and the spanish did nothing to educate them, they have slaughter them instead.

But i doubt a friendly chinese contact would have lead to the same atrocity, so the aztec, who know, could have totaly prevent south america colonization.

The more i am thinking about this history twist, the more i think it would have been a major difference in today world. The brithish empire surely wouldnt have extend their power as far as they did.

Do we have a super computer history simulation programm ? Is it feasible ?

Why would it have effected the British?

The Spanish perhaps - Phillippines and most of the New World - but, they'd have finally cleared the Chinese off the seas as hell, the Chinese were a one shot wonder that may have sailed near the coast of Asia and Africa yet there is no solid proof he reached the Americas. As we've debated this before, I'll repeat that had the Chinese got there first, then the Chinese would have introduced the natives with many new diseases causing many to die. The fact is, there is no solid proof given. Hell, we are told to wait for his book before he'll tell of where he apparently has found Chinese ships wrecked in...the Carribean of all places.

Like so much about the Chinese, we are told great stories of their power, their superiority and yet when the Europeans arrive on the scene there is no evidence of it.

I laugh very much at the notion that the Chinese would have been more benevolent to the Aztecs and such and we read (from the links given) that they went around castrating people! ROFL! The Spanish didn't do that, they were just appalled at the blood sacrifice, the lack of Christianity and then tempted by all that gold and silver :D The Chinese would be after peoples bollocks.

Why would it have effected the British?

The Spanish perhaps - Phillippines and most of the New World - but, they'd have finally cleared the Chinese off the seas as hell, the Chinese were a one shot wonder that may have sailed near the coast of Asia and Africa yet there is no solid proof he reached the Americas. May I remind you that the Chinese did clear the Dutch out of Formosa, in 1681 or 1682. But that was because the Ming loyalists needed an offshore base for the struggle with the invading Manchus.

Had the Qing been more maritime-minded (very unlikely, since they're landsmen fr the Manchurian forests), they could easily clear the Europeans out of East Asian seas.

The Spanish in Manila lived in fear of invasion fr the Chinese empire. On a few false occasions, they massacred the Manila Chinese, 'cause they thought the Chinese 'were finally coming at them', and wanted to remove a potential source of fifth columnists.

However, the Chinese, unlike greedy Europeans, had little interest in overseas adventures, since China itself was a rich land and most Chinese had little motivation to venture out of their ancestral homelands.

As we've debated this before, I'll repeat that had the Chinese got there first, then the Chinese would have introduced the natives with many new diseases causing many to die.Very true; the Chinese, as part of the Old World, carried the same diseases.

I laugh very much at the notion that the Chinese would have been more benevolent to the Aztecs and such and we read (from the links given) that they went around castrating people! ROFL! The Spanish didn't do that, they were just appalled at the blood sacrifice, the lack of Christianity and then tempted by all that gold and silver :D The Chinese would be after peoples bollocks.Like I'd said, the Chinese had little interests in overseas adventures, and wouldn't be after anybody's anything, unlike the Europeans. The Chinese also had no interests in imposing their morality/religion on others, nor covet the richness of other lands (since China was prosperous).

At most, any hypothetical official Chinese landing would require the natives to make some ceremonial gesture at the pre-eminence of the Chinese emperor, as the tianzhi, Son of Heaven, gathered some curiosities and moved on. As the Ming expeditions had done in much of Asia.

Private Chinese enterprise is another matter though.

May I remind you that the Chinese did clear the Dutch out of Formosa, in 1681 or 1682. But that was because the Ming loyalists needed an offshore base for the struggle with the invading Manchus.

Had the Qing been more maritime-minded (very unlikely, since they're landsmen fr the Manchurian forests), they could easily clear the Europeans out of East Asian seas.

The Spanish in Manila lived in fear of invasion fr the Chinese empire. On a few false occasions, they massacred the Manila Chinese, 'cause they thought the Chinese 'were finally coming at them', and wanted to remove a potential source of fifth columnists.

However, the Chinese, unlike greedy Europeans, had little interest in overseas adventures, since China itself was a rich land and most Chinese had little motivation to venture out of their ancestral homelands.

Very true; the Chinese, as part of the Old World, carried the same diseases.

Like I'd said, the Chinese had little interests in overseas adventures, and wouldn't be after anybody's anything, unlike the Europeans. The Chinese also had no interests in imposing their morality/religion on others, nor covet the richness of other lands (since China was prosperous).

At most, any hypothetical official Chinese landing would require the natives to make some ceremonial gesture at the pre-eminence of the Chinese emperor, as the tianzhi, Son of Heaven, gathered some curiosities and moved on. As the Ming expeditions had done in much of Asia.

Private Chinese enterprise is another matter though.

Some good points spoilt by some utter nonsense about Chinese having far higher moral standards than Westerners and lacking the vice of greed which is utter poppycock!

I guess the Chinese never invaded anyone or anywhere, ever...haven't historically been guilty of rampant nepotism, corruption and committing every sort of sexual depravity, crime and torture...just like the rest of us!

Spot the sarcasm.

Nothing to do with higher moral standards.

Something to do with historical factors :

No greed isn't true. There were greedy chinese just as much as everything else. But what IS true is that the Chinese state proper had little to gain in terms of resources from oversea adventures, unlike the European nations. It's most likely true that some merchants and adventurers might have been tempted to attempt carving themselves new world empires (and XIII recognizes this when he refers to private enterprise) ; but a concerted effort to claim the land in the name of China proper would most likely not have been - again, the Chinese state itself was essentialy a satisfied giant.

As for the Chinese having no interest in imposing their morality or religion, it's not a matter of vice or lack of thereof. It's in large part a matter that they did not have a Monotheistic Missionary religion (IE Islam and Christianism).

Of course, it's harder to be tolerant to other religion when your faith tells you "There is ONLY THIS God that is true, all others are false and evil" than when your faith tells you "There are many gods, among which stands..." - it's far easier to accept the gods of other religions as possibly existing when your own religion doesn't tell you all other gods are lies.

And as a direct offshot, if you think that the other religions might be right too, then you won't see the need to make them see religion YOUR way, beyond any political expediency (ie, making them recognize your political leader as a deity). Hence why monotheistic religion tend to have a greater drive to make others accept their views (a drive starting from a good intention really : the point *is* "saving the souls" of the pagans)

So yeah - the claim that China wouldn't have tried to impose its religion isn't a matter of any bias making anyone here feel that Chinesse are "superiorly moral", simply a constatation based on which religions the empire DID follow at the time.

It should be noted here in passing that the EXACT SAME could be said of pre-Christianization Rome ; religious tolerance was MUCH higher in polytheist Rome than it was in much of Europe after monotheism spread across it.

Another thing XIII, you talk of the fear the Spanish had that the Chinese would attack. Well, the Philippines is a hell of alot close to China that Spain and the local Spanish forces could potentially be overwhelmed by superior numbers of a navy far closer to home. Unlike the British, the Spanish were limited in the number of other bases they could operate from in the region (or anywhere near the region) to launch a counter-stroke. However, it does not equate to the Chinese being able to beat the Spanish Navy, just pose a local threat to a very distant colony with a significant section of the population that could not be trusted to not aid invaders.

As for the Britain vs China thing...well, it did happen, it was called the Opium Wars and in this Britain was entirely successful and imposed her terms after humiliating Chinese forces. This on the part of the British was not a major war and indicates clearly how the Chinese had not kept up technologically, nor did they have the martial spirit like the Zulus, Afghans, Maoris or Sikhs to make a good fight of it.

You're failing to take a few points in consideration :

1)The opium war saw China at one of its weakest points in history where it had fallen far behind the West. Compare with Korea were China - STILL somewhat behind - managed to pretty much stalemate the west (if at a dreadful cost to themselves). There is NO guarantee that had the court battle gone over to the partisan of a more outward-oriented policy they would have fallen so far behind Europe at any point. In addition, there is no guarantee that a clash with England would have occured with China pretty much at its weakest point had they gone on exploring.

2)The opium war saw also England pretty much near the height of her power. Again, there is no guarantee that had China gone on exploring and with an outward policy such a clash would have occured at a point where England was at the height of her power.

To say that any confrontation between an hypothetical outward-minded China and England would have gone the way of the Opium War is way over the top.

For the most part my best guess would have been that they would have eventually left each other alone militarily - an exploring, outward-minded China wouldn't have been able to hurt England much in Europe or North America, and England wouldn't have been able to hurt them all that much in Asia either - not unless China actually DID fall in an isolationist twilight (as they historically did).

The theory of "England having advanced bases" doesn't do all that much - advanced bases generally just translates to a big fat "TARGET" sign to the enemy, as long as they have a much easier time of bringing new forces there than you do.

Some good points spoilt by some utter nonsense about Chinese having far higher moral standards than Westerners and lacking the vice of greed which is utter poppycock!

I guess the Chinese never invaded anyone or anywhere, ever...haven't historically been guilty of rampant nepotism, corruption and committing every sort of sexual depravity, crime and torture...just like the rest of us!

Spot the sarcasm.What Oda said.

When I said the Chinese, I meant the Chinese who mattered, those in power in the empire.

Read my words carefully, before jumping to conclusions - I never once said that the Chinese had higher morals, just that the Chinese state had little interest in imposing their morality on others. And that the Chinese state had little interest in overseas expansion, esp around the time of the Ming and Qing (the Manchus were busy with the Mongols and Russians inland).

Another thing XIII, you talk of the fear the Spanish had that the Chinese would attack. Well, the Philippines is a hell of alot close to China that Spain and the local Spanish forces could potentially be overwhelmed by superior numbers of a navy far closer to home. Unlike the British, the Spanish were limited in the number of other bases they could operate from in the region (or anywhere near the region) to launch a counter-stroke. However, it does not equate to the Chinese being able to beat the Spanish Navy, just pose a local threat to a very distant colony with a significant section of the population that could not be trusted to not aid invaders. I never mention anything about the Qing navy overwhelming the Spanish one. Just stating what the Spaniards felt in the 16-17th centuries.

As for the Britain vs China thing...well, it did happen, it was called the Opium Wars and in this Britain was entirely successful and imposed her terms after humiliating Chinese forces. This on the part of the British was not a major war and indicates clearly how the Chinese had not kept up technologically, nor did they have the martial spirit like the Zulus, Afghans, Maoris or Sikhs to make a good fight of it.Surprise, surprise. The Chinese had not been a martial nation for, say the last thousand years.

Conceptually, we're supposed to be a nation ruled by civilian mandarins, and the emperor's job is to keep the nation at peace (not fighting wars to increase his powers or territories). For better or worse.

Of course, how it's practised is open to interpretation.

In any case, the British had returned HK now. :p

XIII already mentioned periodic Spanish massacres of Chinese outside the walls of Manila. I'll just add one more thing regarding the Spanish experience in the Philippines with regards the Chinese.

Look up a guy called Limahong. He invaded the then Spanish Philippines, and tried to set up his own private kingdom. And almost succeeded too, ruling a huge swatch of Luzon at one time. Who he? Merely a pirate from China running from the authorities back home... :rolleyes:

XIII already mentioned periodic Spanish massacres of Chinese outside the walls of Manila. I'll just add one more thing regarding the Spanish experience in the Philippines with regards the Chinese.

Look up a guy called Limahong. He invaded the then Spanish Philippines, and tried to set up his own private kingdom. And almost succeeded too, ruling a huge swatch of Luzon at one time. Who he? Merely a pirate from China running from the authorities back home... :rolleyes:

The word 'tried' is the key one isn't it Dann.

Limahong tried to invade the Philippines within the first 10 years of Spanish occupation and he failed when he tried to defeat the Spanish at their base in Manilla. Indeed the Spanish had only after bloodshed 3 years defeated Luzon, it was hardly securely within the power of Spain, so don't give this notion that the Chinese had to do much fighting to get it. As and when they tried to oust the main Spanish force isolate as far away from Spain as you can get they lost. Oh yes, at one point the British took Manilla for 2 years during the 7 years war giving it back only by treaty :D

As for the massacures led by the Spanish, it was after revolts by the Chinese and indeed a conspiracy to kill all Spaniards that was exposed. These were not simply due to fear, but due to real actions taken by the Chinese community which again...failed.

In any case, the British had returned HK now. :p

At the end of the lease, which has been a bad thing for the people that lived there.

The word 'tried' is the key one isn't it Dann.
I never said he succeeded. Only pointing out that a fugitive from his native country could give such an amount of grief to THE premier colonial power of the time.
Oh yes, at one point the British took Manilla for 2 years during the 7 years war giving it back only by treaty :D
I know. Why did you give it back? :cry: You Brits should have taken the rest of the Philippines instead. It was the 18th century already. You could easily have dictated terms to the Spanish since you're already more powerful. We would surely have been better off under you than under those corrupt, Church-dominated Spanish for another 100+ years.
As for the massacures led by the Spanish, it was after revolts by the Chinese and indeed a conspiracy to kill all Spaniards that was exposed. These were not simply due to fear, but due to real actions taken by the Chinese community which again...failed.
Oh, yes. So all they historians (who happen to be all Spanish) say. Those Chinese communities outside the walls of Intramuros were composed of either coolies, artisans or traders! Conspire to kill their biggest and best customers? Hah!

Anyway there were revolts aplenty during the 300+ years of Spanish rule in the Philippines. Mostly restricted to a particular region though. The Spanish would then conveniently levy troops from other areas or islands to suppress these. The old divide and conquer ploy. But at no time did the Chinese population there grow to be able to muster a significant army. Even today our numbers are few, compared to other ethnicities.

At the end of the lease, which has been a bad thing for the people that lived there.
Er... no. The 99 year lease was for the New Territories, the bigger plot of land north of Kowloon. Technically, Britain could hold on to Hongkong and Kowloon for all eternity, since the treaty signed after the Opium Wars never specified details one way or another. Realistically, however.... :mischief:

Various interesting quote,


In all, Zheng He made seven wondrous voyages of discovery between 1405 and 1433. His achievements show that China had the ships and navigational skills to explore the world. Mysteriously, China did not follow up on these voyages. The Chinese destroyed their ocean going ships and halted further expeditions. Thus, a century later, Europeans would "discover" China, instead of the Chinese "discovering" Europe.
-------------------

In 1405 Zheng He set out on his first voyage. No nation on earth had ever sent such a fleet onto the ocean. It included sixty-two large ships, some 600 feet long, larger than any other on the seas. Hundreds of smaller vessels accompanied them. A Chinese historian described them; "The ships which sail the Southern Sea are like houses. When their sails are spread they are like great clouds in the sky."

-----------------
On the way back to China, the fleet threaded its way through the Straits of Malacca, stopping at the large islands of Sumatra and Java. Zheng He established a base at the Straits that he would use for each of his seven voyages. There are thousands of smaller islands in this vast archipelago, and some were pirates' lairs. The pirates preyed on unwary fishermen and small merchant vessels. Zheng He, showing how the emperor treated those who disrupted harmony, attacked and destroyed a fleet of pirate ships. He captured the leader and brought him back to Beijing for execution.
----------------
On some voyages Muslim religious leaders and Buddhist monks were brought along to serve as diplomats in lands where people were Muslim or Buddhist.
---------------
In exchange for such wares, and as tribute, Zheng He brought back medicinal herbs, dyes, spices, precious, gems, pearls, rhinoceros horns, ivory, and exotic animals. On the homeward voyage, the fleet again stopped at their base to sort out the foreign goods and wait for a favorable wind to return to China.

-------------

However, a new Ming emperor had come to the throne. His scholar-officials criticized Zheng's achievements, complaining about their great expense. China was now fighting another barbarian enemy on its western borders and needed to devote its resources to that struggle. When a court favorite wanted to continue Zheng He's voyages, he was turned down. To make sure, the court officials destroyed the logs that Zheng He had kept. We know about his voyages only from the pillar and some accounts that his crew members wrote.

Thus, China abandoned its overseas voyages. It was a fateful decision, for just at that time, Portugal was beginning to send its ships down the west coast of Africa. In the centuries that followed, European explorers would sail to all parts of the world. They would establish colonies in Africa, America, and finally in the nations of East Asia. China would suffer because it had turned its back on exploration. Zheng He had started the process that might have led the Middle Kingdom to greater glory Unfortunately the rulers of the Ming Dynasty refused to follow his lead.


Link:http://planet.time.net.my/CentralMarket/melaka101/chengho.htm

What i find very interesting in their cultur at that time is, quote,

Zheng He, showing how the emperor treated those who disrupted harmony, attacked and destroyed a fleet of pirate ships.

Unfortuantly the new Ming emperor was a :crazyeye: , he never realise that he could have change the face of the world, he even behave like an idiot, quote,

To make sure, the court officials destroyed the logs that Zheng He had kept.

I never denied that the Chinese sailed in from China to even places like Mombasa (East Coast Africa), the Red Sea, Persian Gulf, nor to Java and India etc, etc. However that is far different from going to the New World, Australia, Antarctica and even to Europe which is total fantasy. Hell, those ships may have been big, but I'd be interested to know if indeed they could sail the Pacific without being at great risk of disaster.

Hell, those ships may have been big, but I'd be interested to know if indeed they could sail the Pacific without being at great risk of disaster.

A much lesser risk than that the Spanish galleons took, actually. The Chinese ships were the most seaworthy of their time and perhaps up until iron hulled ships (though French designed frigates and 74s might be almost if not as seaworthy).

As for the massacures led by the Spanish, it was after revolts by the Chinese and indeed a conspiracy to kill all Spaniards that was exposed. These were not simply due to fear, but due to real actions taken by the Chinese community which again...failed.What's your source for this? If it's fr the Spanish chronicles as mentioned by Dann, I wouldn't be so quick to take it as true.

Dann is Filipino-Chinese himself and level-headed enough for me; I'll be more inclined to believe him. :p

However that is far different from going to the New World, Australia, Antarctica and even to Europe which is total fantasy. Hell, those ships may have been big, but I'd be interested to know if indeed they could sail the Pacific without being at great risk of disaster.The Chinese vessels were very seaworthy; the later, smaller ones even more so since these were private Chinese marine vessels for trade and stability and safety is more important to the merchants. Chinese junks were still around up till recently I believe (think HK), although I don't recall.

E.g. Chinese ships were divided into water-tight compartments so that when water got into one portion, it wouldn't flood the rest too quickly; a technique only picked up much later in the West. I am not a maritime tech expect, so I can't elaborate much.

But I also think the Chinese wouldn't have sailed to Antartica, Australia, Europe etc, since these lands were poor, compared with China. :p

What's your source for this? If it's fr the Spanish chronicles as mentioned by Dann, I wouldn't be so quick to take it as true.

Dann is Filipino-Chinese himself and level-headed enough for me; I'll be more inclined to believe him. :p

The Manilla Times :p

http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2003/aug/28/prov/20030828pro12.html

Other sources tell of 23,000 Chinese being killed in the 1603 revolt...hardly a small community considering how few Spaniards there were in the Philippines.

But I also think the Chinese wouldn't have sailed to Antartica, Australia, Europe etc, since these lands were poor, compared with China. :p

The sort of arrogance and complacency that turned China in upon herself till the World broke in and made her smell the coffee or more precisely the opium.

Also, you can't tell the wealth of a place till you get there.

The sort of arrogance and complacency that turned China in upon herself till the World broke in and made her smell the coffee or more precisely the opium. Well, the Chinese had lived thru and survived the Zhou, Qiang, Di, Qin, Xiong-nu, Xianbei, Turkish, Tibetan, Qidan, Jurchen, Xi Xia, Mongol, Timurid, Manchu, Dzungar and Japanese raids and invasions. We're still here, and in much the same state. :smug:

One century or so of humiliation at the hands of the West won't sink us. We can take it in stride. :p

The Manilla Times :p

http://www.manilatimes.net/national/2003/aug/28/prov/20030828pro12.htmlA newspaper (and an Internet one) is hardly a creditable source - and I suspect that piece got its source fr the Spanish as well.

Other sources tell of 23,000 Chinese being killed in the 1603 revolt...hardly a small community considering how few Spaniards there were in the Philippines. Other sources?

In any case, revolts against the Spanish were hardly peculiar to the Chinese, if revolts they were. The Moros came to mind.

... I also think the Chinese wouldn't have sailed to Antartica, Australia, Europe etc, since these lands were poor, compared with China. :p
... you can't tell the wealth of a place till you get there.
XIII is right. The ancient Chinese were too good at calculating ROIs and thus saw no need to continue exploration, since they never discovered any other country with more riches than they already have back home. :(

Kitten, however, is also right. The ancient Chinese were also incredibly short-sighted. They didn't see that even empty land can be developed. Or how lucrative it is to conquer and subjugate others. All they did was collect tribute, capture some exotic animals and then leave. What a waste! :mad:
The sort of arrogance and complacency that turned China in upon herself till the World broke in and made her smell the coffee or more precisely the opium.
You're proud of what the British did regarding opium? :confused:

Guess you wouldn't mind if we start planting the stuff and flood your cities with cheap cocaine then. :evil: Indirectly through other channels, of course... :mischief:
In any case, revolts against the Spanish were hardly peculiar to the Chinese, if revolts they were. The Moros came to mind.
The Moros NEVER recognized Spanish sovereignty throughout their entire 300+ year reign. It was only with the coming of the Americans at the turn of the 20th century that the Moros were conquered.

I am posting here a link to an (in my view) excellent and well sourced article on the "Rise and Fall of 15th Century Chinese Naval Power":

http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/china.htm

I quote part I think is especially valid:

The motives of the Western sea explorers and the Eastern treasure fleets were very different. The Chinese were essentially on a dignified tour of the civilized world, initially perhaps in a search for the deposed emperor, but ultimately for the rich gifts of tribute and for the prestige.

The Europeans, on the other hand, were engaged in their bitter war with Islam and working for profit. De Zurara, chronicler of Prince Henry the Navigator, lists these motives for Prince Henry in priority order: (1) Cosmographical knowledge, (2) Profit of traffic, (3) Commerce, (4) War versus Islam, (5) Missionary zeal, and (6) the Prince's famous horoscope.42 There were great economic considerations for the Europeans. In China, the economic considerations were reserved for the inland activities; overseas activities were wanton expenses without sufficient return demonstrated to warrant continuation.

The Chinese were not great explorers with these expeditions, they were tried and tested routes and their aim was to trade and exact tribute. The Europeans motives extended towards exploration and a raft of other aims and brought knowledge of the globe into the domain of man whilst the Chinese failed in spite of their vast ships etc.

I haven't read the thread as I have to go soon (:D), but does anyone have any info on those Chinese ships? A link or a photo?

China would go on to discover the new world(some say they already did) and sail into Portugal before the portuguese began sailing, and become the Superpower by making all the European monarchs their vassals.

Somewhere along the line, the Portugese would meet the Chinese fleet while trying to circumnavigate Africa, and would probably be amazed by these ships which were huge, compared to the tiny portugese vessels. This probably would have stopped portugese expansion into the indian ocean a little but i doubt they would 'make every european nation their vassal'.

America would probably be discovered by the chinese and Although they would kill many of the aztecs and others off, they would probably build up a small immunity for it by the time the spanish arrived, and be able to fend them off more effectively, and perhaps even field more advanced weapons. because i just see the chinese trading with these nations and making them recognize the suzerainty of the Chinese throne.

@ Gelion: The Chinese FuChuan:

http://www.international.ucla.edu/ccs/pics/zhenghe2.jpg

http://www.engelfriet.net/Alie/Hans/zhenghecolumbus.gif

2 pictures comparing the chinese vessel to a spanish Caravel.

The Chinese were not great explorers with these expeditions, they were tried and tested routes and their aim was to trade and exact tribute. The Europeans motives extended towards exploration and a raft of other aims and brought knowledge of the globe into the domain of man whilst the Chinese failed in spite of their vast ships etc.Yep.

The emperor was also concerned over control of his people, esp those extended overseas. The court didn't really like her people to get too far out of sight - might be potential for 'mischief'.

When the official Ming expeditions sailed into Nanyang AKA SE Asia, Zheng He and his officials were astounded at the size of the Chinese communities that had developed in Siam and elsewhere. ;)

a general note most seem to be forgetting;

comparing the chinese fuChuan and a caravel are fine; until one remembers that caravels were the small but sturdy ships of exploration and trade; fighting was carried out by larger ships, even in that time. And while they may not have been as big as the trewasure ships, the europeans wouldnt have been as intimidated by the chinese "super-ships" as you may think

a general note most seem to be forgetting;

comparing the chinese fuChuan and a caravel are fine; until one remembers that caravels were the small but sturdy ships of exploration and trade; fighting was carried out by larger ships, even in that time. And while they may not have been as big as the trewasure ships, the europeans wouldnt have been as intimidated by the chinese "super-ships" as you may think

I doubt the largest Euro Warship of its time was more than 100 feet. A 400 footer would definately have them surprised.

Kitten, however, is also right. The ancient Chinese were also incredibly short-sighted. They didn't see that even empty land can be developed. Or how lucrative it is to conquer and subjugate others. All they did was collect tribute, capture some exotic animals and then leave. What a waste! :mad: There is also a matter of the trend of the Chinese imperial system leaning towards more absolutism. In the Song era, the govt model was of the emperor being more of a figure-head and final decision-maker, whilst the officials fought it out over policies (it was a very tense and colorful era; I might write a bit on this someday :)). Further, the emperor was limited by tradition, strong local/regional govts and such.

Then came the Mongols and their absolutist 'control' style of governance. The Ming, who succeeded them (and drove them back to the steppes), absorbed this tendency too. The Chinese imperial state became more of an empire in need of 'control' over everything and all its people; of more of a top-down govt.

So, in the end, I blame the Mongols. :)

a general note most seem to be forgetting;

comparing the chinese fuChuan and a caravel are fine; until one remembers that caravels were the small but sturdy ships of exploration and trade; fighting was carried out by larger ships, even in that time. And while they may not have been as big as the trewasure ships, the europeans wouldnt have been as intimidated by the chinese "super-ships" as you may think

These ships were mainly used for trade aswell, and were very sturdy too. What do you mean the Europeans will not be impressed. When Marco Polo went to China he was awed beyond belief, I doubt they would disregard these huge behemoths of the sea and just go about their colonization as they did in real history...

Xen - EVEN so. The Great Harry (Henri Grace a Dieu), one of the largest carracks of the early 16th century - and carracks are pretty much top of the top as far as size goes (galleons are actually SMALLER than carracks) was a "mere" 165 feet - not even half of a treasure-ship, and that's about the largest Europe fielded a century later.

Warships-wise it does NOT get much better ; even an 18th century ship of the line in Europe is a mere 200-odd feet (227 feet for Nelson's HMS Victory). American ships of the line were of similar size.

In fact, according to a quick browse of American stats, the 400 feet line wasn't really broken for warships until the advent of the XXth century, and then only with heavy cruisers and battleships - and even then the treasure ships outsized any american battleships prior to the launch of USS Virginia on August 6, 1904.

Even the first American dreadnought (USS Michigan) was just fifty feet longer than the treasure ship.

I never said European warships gotr bigger then the treasure ships; only that the rather small caravel isnt what the Spanish amoung others woudl be rankign up to ;)

and in the game of size, while the treasure ships woudl be impressive, one wonders how well they might so in battle agiasnt Europeans ships of the same era.

Against early 1400s warships?

It depends what exactly the fleet is outfitted for. If it's outfitted for trade with little to no fighting-able men on board, then China is in trouble. If it carries a sizeable complement of fighting men onboard, then it's Europe that's in trouble. They could probably garner enough galleys to match China's force in number of men - but that's the problem, they're galleys. European renaissance galleys wouldn't be nearly as ocean-worthy as ships built specifically for long-range journeys.

And moreover that would take a Lepanto-style united effort.

You have to remember after all that it wasn't just ONE ship - China had a fleet of treasure ships, and while not all of the ships that sailed with Zheng He were of the 400+ feet variety, I wouldn't be too quick to assume there was only one of those behemoths in the fleet.

And given that the early 1400s was a time of boarding battles for Europe - Drake and the English naval revolution were still well over a century away - the larger ship would indeed have held the advantage if both were primed for battle.

Yeah, I'd have to agree, Europe's fleet would be smashed even by just a fleet of plain treasure ships... Plus there was the fact that the Chinese had other types of ships, thousands of those on each voyage, many of which carried hundreds of dedicated soldiers each, and many of which carried cannon.

Against early 1400s warships?

It depends what exactly the fleet is outfitted for. If it's outfitted for trade with little to no fighting-able men on board, then China is in trouble. If it carries a sizeable complement of fighting men onboard, then it's Europe that's in trouble. They could probably garner enough galleys to match China's force in number of men - but that's the problem, they're galleys. European renaissance galleys wouldn't be nearly as ocean-worthy as ships built specifically for long-range journeys.

And moreover that would take a Lepanto-style united effort.

You have to remember after all that it wasn't just ONE ship - China had a fleet of treasure ships, and while not all of the ships that sailed with Zheng He were of the 400+ feet variety, I wouldn't be too quick to assume there was only one of those behemoths in the fleet.

And given that the early 1400s was a time of boarding battles for Europe - Drake and the English naval revolution were still well over a century away - the larger ship would indeed have held the advantage if both were primed for battle.

I think this comparison of China's ships against "European" ships somewhat misses the point... at least when considering the case of Portugal, the first global empire in the modern age. Portugal got started before the rest of Europe in this regard... the Portuguese, although valiant, were not a militaristic power... they had too little manpower for this... they were incredible sailors and explorers... they set up a "commercial" empire in Africa, South America, India, China, Japan and the rest of Asia... they simply never had the manpower to actually rule this extensive territory with power.. they made strategic fortresses and controlled commerce and explored.... they fought strategic battles and played politics... but they never could even dream of ruling these lands with brute power

a general note most seem to be forgetting;

comparing the chinese fuChuan and a caravel are fine; until one remembers that caravels were the small but sturdy ships of exploration and trade; fighting was carried out by larger ships, even in that time. And while they may not have been as big as the trewasure ships, the europeans wouldnt have been as intimidated by the chinese "super-ships" as you may think

I would tend to agree with Xen on this one, the Portuguese were incredible explorers... I wouldn't underestimate them so easily. They would have explored and traded with whoever they met

Whatever gave you the idea I believed the Portuguesse (or other Europeans) would not have been willing to trade with the chinese?

They would not have been intimidated and scared away from trading - if anything the treasure ships sailing in early would most likely have been a tremendous boost to exploration.

But the opinion I'm holding is not that - it's strictly on the military intimidation factor. And on THAT factor, I'm holding to my opinion that the treasure ships would have driven Europe to steer clear of provoking China in a fight. When battles are decided by boarding, you just do NOT pick a fight with a navy that has ships twice as large as your largest, especially not when these ships have just demonstrated their seaworthiness by sailing the length of nearly the entire known world.

...especially not when these ships have just demonstrated their seaworthiness by sailing the length of nearly the entire known world.

Something these ships never did.

nearly is the key word kitten....

Against early 1400s warships?

It depends what exactly the fleet is outfitted for. If it's outfitted for trade with little to no fighting-able men on board, then China is in trouble. If it carries a sizeable complement of fighting men onboard, then it's Europe that's in trouble. They could probably garner enough galleys to match China's force in number of men - but that's the problem, they're galleys. European renaissance galleys wouldn't be nearly as ocean-worthy as ships built specifically for long-range journeys.

And moreover that would take a Lepanto-style united effort.

You have to remember after all that it wasn't just ONE ship - China had a fleet of treasure ships, and while not all of the ships that sailed with Zheng He were of the 400+ feet variety, I wouldn't be too quick to assume there was only one of those behemoths in the fleet.

And given that the early 1400s was a time of boarding battles for Europe - Drake and the English naval revolution were still well over a century away - the larger ship would indeed have held the advantage if both were primed for battle.The Ming navy had a few thousand ships of all varieties... And they had nasty weopans - not just primitive cannons, but also biological-chemical type fillings as cannon-fodder. IIRC.

And the fleets sailing out to the West had sufficient military power to do much. As one example that I recalled vaguely when the king of Ceylon refused to submit, the Chinese fleet landed an army, chased down the king and brought him back to Beijing in chains. After he properly and humbly submitted, he was brought back to Ceylon and reinstated as king.

As another example, when the Siamese had wanted to march down the Malay penisular, the port-city of Malacca requested for aid fr the Ming. The Chinese sent an envoy to Siam, backed by a fleet. End of story.

Kitten - in case you forgot, the discussion we were having here was "What would have happened if the treasure ship reached Europe", not "What did Zheng He accomplish", which we're all pretty agreed on.

Obviously, had they done that, they WOULD have proved the seaworthiness of their ship by sailing the length of the known world. The fact that they didn't in reality is patentedly irrelevant, BECAUSE WE ARE DISCUSSING A "WHAT IF" SCENARIO here.

XIII - I knew about the other ships ; I wasn't sure how well the treasure fleet was armed for battle though.

XIII - I knew about the other ships ; I wasn't sure how well the treasure fleet was armed for battle though.They were very well-armed, with large contingents of Chinese marines on-board. The fleets were coming to bend your knee to the Emperor of All Under Heaven; not for a social visit. Bad things happened to those who refused to.

The Mandate of Heaven wasn't just about the divine right to rule China - it was the rulership of All Under Heaven we're talking about, meaning literally the world. ;)

I'd assume that if the Chinese knew a seaway to Europe, the fleets would pay a visit too. :evil: How that will turn out; I have no idea. :p

They were very well-armed, with large contingents of Chinese marines on-board. The fleets were coming to bend your knee to the Emperor of All Under Heaven; not for a social visit. Bad things happened to those who refused to.

The Mandate of Heaven wasn't just about the divine right to rule China - it was the rulership of All Under Heaven we're talking about, meaning literally the world. ;)

I'd assume that if the Chinese knew a seaway to Europe, the fleets would pay a visit too. :evil: How that will turn out; I have no idea. :p

I'm almost certain China did know about Europe- they just didn't care less. At least, the post-Zhu Di emperors didn't. I thought Zheng He's voyages were more focused on the Pacific than anywhere else...

I said a seaway to Europe - the Chinese certainly knew about Europe; they'd received ambassadors fr the Byzantines during the Tang era 600-700 years earlier e.g. ;)

The Ming fleets sailed to everywhere known to Chinese mariners - East Africa, the Red Sea, the Persian Gulf etc.

I think it is great that the Chinese honors this explorer, and bring him to the light again.
I really think the recent development of China is very healty.

I'm almost certain China did know about Europe- they just didn't care less. At least, the post-Zhu Di emperors didn't. I thought Zheng He's voyages were more focused on the Pacific than anywhere else...

Then you were wrong and this mis-interpretation is something all the speculative scenarios as well as that thread Tassadar setup about the 7th expedition visiting everywhere helped to cause.

A map of the voyages of Zheng He which I've seen in numerous books and websites etc.

http://www.wwnorton.com/worlds/images/map2_6.jpg