I posted something like this a while back. Worker units with hidden nationality, 0 defense, 1 attack, and defensive bombardment cannot be captured, but may occupy the same square as the rival. Has anyone witnessed something along these lines?

It would make for a great addition. Preplaced terrain-colored barbarian units that can't essentially be destroyed except late in the game and even then by being bombarded with lethal-bombardment artillery.

Any comments?

I've never heard of that o_O

Could be interesting if it doesn't lead to a game crash.

I don 't think thats possible, Ocedious

Actually, I am playing a mod right now and thats exactly what going on. The Suspicious forest units are chinese with the same attributes I mentioned. My roman warrior is standing on the same tile as them. I have very successfully used this in my mods by creating a unit called resistor. He has these attributes: modern worker .flcs, available with nationalism, attack 4, defense 0, 4/0/1 Bombard and hidden nationality.

This makes capturing cities a pain-in-the-ass, and mine or the AIs.

The gifs should explain what's going on.

continued with last image:

The unit appears forest unit is invisible because I have used blank.flc for this. Actually, I have been using this type of unit for the Ai for some time. It appears invisible and you'll step on to the tile if you don't observe the small white hyphen /bar for the units.

They bombard defensively, and lethal if you want it. Makes a nifty addition.

Does this only work with these very specific parameters?

Yes, but the problem is the type of unit you create can sometimes backfire on you. Resistors are simple. Cost 1 population, 0 movement, ZOC, defensive bombard, basically footunits that can't leave the city.

But these ones I am working on now are meant as dangerous enviornment units. They attack sometimes if you give them a bombard range of 1, but are impossible to kill since the game engine doesn't attack them. Bombards' the only way to deal with these and occassionally that too fails.

So what, if anything, do these units do if they're immobile in a city? How does it damage the enemy?

A few other questions:

Can you increase the Attack strength to above 1?
Can this unit still die when attacking?
Does invisible nationality have to be active?

So what, if anything, do these units do if they're immobile in a city? How does it damage the enemy?
With ZOC, they attack units in a city's proximity. I have seen the AI build this and use it in my mods.

Can you increase the Attack strength to above 1?
Yes. Resistors are just one example. I am still guaging the AIs use of these. Another unit I have observed is the Khmer warrior (using the jomon warrior .flcs) It has an attack of 1 and a defensive bombardment. And it works very very well. Another is the Indian Thuggi/spy/robber type unit. It attacks and occupies the same square.

Can this unit still die when attacking?
I have yet to see this happen. However there is atleast an exception to this rule. If a unit is inside the city and you attack the city and the city falls, the units disappear. I posted this as a possible bug sometime ago, but got wrapped at the university and lost track of the thread.

Does invisible nationality have to be active?
Yes. If not, the unit is attacked like anyother unit and is killed because they keep attacking/defending till one of the rival dies out. Usually this is the resistor.

Another odd thing about these is if you have units with these attributes outside a city and an enemy is also on the same tile. For say 3 chinese resistors on a hill with a roman spearman. If a chinese archer approaches the hill tile, the resistors actually bombard the archer and then the spearman picks him off. The units treat the parent civilization as if it were the enemy. When the roman spearman moves away, they treat the parent civilization as a friend again :eek:

This is the weirdest thing I've heard of. Obviously a bug, but if it does not lead to game crashes, it could be handy in fantasy mods (lethal forests, swamps etc., perhaps...).

I am sure its a bug. The best part is units are not destroyed if you disable their ability to fortify. Fortified units however are destroyed if they are unable to kill the attacking rival units. :)

So has anyone else tried this? What happened? Interesting results? Any comments?

It would be a shame to lose this thread if no one tried these settings out. This type of unit offers a lot of potential.

I don 't think thats possible, Ocedious

Yes it is. A 0 unit with Hidden Nationality can't be destroyed. In fact, it can share a space with another civ's units. The problem with this is that having that unit in another civs territority will draw quite a number of that civ's units to that location to try and destroy it. That allows the human player to draw off a sizable portion of an enemies forces to wherever he/she wants. In short, it's an unfair exploit that I don't think should be used.

Yes it is. A 0 unit with Hidden Nationality can't be destroyed. In fact, it can share a space with another civ's units. The problem with this is that having that unit in another civs territority will draw quite a number of that civ's units to that location to try and destroy it. That allows the human player to draw off a sizable portion of an enemies forces to wherever he/she wants. In short, it's an unfair exploit that I don't think should be used.

I have tried this and it doesn't draw any unwarranted attention because it has no defense. I mean 0 defense. It will not attract any units, becuase the AI doesn't consider it as much a threat as a defense stat unit.

In addition the AI will build these (if you'll check the post about resistors.) Its an exploit that the AI uses. It has used it against me several times. Crazy, but true. :crazyeye:

That is interesting... and even if it did draw off AI, hopefully at the very least you could make it invisible (Does the bastid AI know where invisible units are to attack?) and use it on landmark terrain.

I am suspicious about AIs and its knowledge of terrian/units. I have seen romans build a road to a mountain next to a city in BA, only to have the mountain tuen up iron whne they discover IA. Not to mention irrigation without a river in the Ancient era.

Invisible is a good idea, but fit for hostile/defensive terrain. This allows the AI to see units, but it can't do any thing about it. Other than bombard the hell out of them .. or use a cruise missile :mischief:

Does this work for water units too? Because subs may at long last be useful! :p

I have only used this for land; I see no reason for it not to. WWI U-boats and stealth bombers are good candidates for Water/Air renegade/resistors. I'll try it and give ya a more accurate response. :)

Does this work for water units too? Because subs may at long last be useful! :p

Checked it out this morning. Yes it does. A sub that is hidden nat. Defensive bombardment/ 0 defense, and unfortified, may share the same square. Fortified, it is destroyed. Smae as the land untis.

The Cruiser in Egyptian, the Sub is Roman :)

I found out this little "bug" a couple months back. But I've been using it a little bit differently. I've used it to create spy & terrorist units. Not giving them any attack points, but giving them the pillage function. I've positioned them at rival cities strategic resources as well as capitals. If they all of a sudden declare war on me or any of my friendly civs, they then begin losing resources necessary for their attacking units, plus I knock off communication with their capital. Wars don't seem to last very long then. ;) It's helpful at keeping those war-mongoring nations at bay.

I kinda came across this a while back too, but my reason for using this type of unit is to give the AI a unit it will create and use, not ignore. The AI is very, um, stupid in Civ, and C3C is not improvemnt either. So I use these in a manner consistent with AI behavior. The units work well, becuase the AI needs all the help it can get.

The subs are a new thing though since I hadn't tried it with 'em till DPII sugested it.

This is confusing, but it sounds like it could have some good uses. So the only way to kill this type of unit unfortified is to use lethal bombard?

This is confusing, but it sounds like it could have some good uses. So the only way to kill this type of unit unfortified is to use lethal bombard?

That I am aware of, yes. But surely someone out there will work on this and comeup with other more interesting ways :hmm:

Do the units have hit points? What happens if you give them bombard range over 0? Can they be used to attack? Will the AI attack with them? I might redo subs...

Do the units have hit points? What happens if you give them bombard range over 0? Can they be used to attack? Will the AI attack with them? I might redo subs...

Yes they can have additional Hitpoints.

With a range over 0, they can bombard like artillery instead of just defensive

Yes, the AI does attack with them

How can a unit w 0 def have HP?

Somehow it does... I'm guessing that the Attack value is what allows it to have HP. Probably if the unit has either an attack or defense value.

Has anybody ever tried a unit with 0 Attack and some defense and see what happens?

The only fundamental flaw I see with Subs currently is that the AI will not know to use them for Naval Power.

BUT on the other hand, if these things have Hidden Nationality, that might be for the best anyway.... because invisible submarines that can sink anything without there being a state of war are just a pain! :rolleyes:

I've done some testing with this, and here is basically what is happening, in one post:
There are only 2 requirements for this to happen- hidden nationality and 0 defense. If the unit has an attack value it can attack another unit, but cant otherwise move into a tile occupied by another civ. Any unit with an attack or defense value has HP, because it can engage in battle in some way, and therefore be injured. Bombardment is not affected at all by this concept, as far as I can tell.
This could be used in a variety of ways, and the game doesnt seem to have a problem with it.

I've done some testing with this, and here is basically what is happening, in one post:
There are only 2 requirements for this to happen- hidden nationality and 0 defense. If the unit has an attack value it can attack another unit, but cant otherwise move into a tile occupied by another civ. Any unit with an attack or defense value has HP, because it can engage in battle in some way, and therefore be injured. Bombardment is not affected at all by this concept, as far as I can tell.
This could be used in a variety of ways, and the game doesnt seem to have a problem with it.

You don't say :mischief:

You don't say :mischief:
Well there were some questions floating around, and you seemed to imply the defensive bombard was a requirement. I wrote it out as much for my own understanding as everyone else's. :p
btw, I fortified a worker and let the AI move onto its tile and nothing happened. What were the stats for your sub?

Well there were some questions floating around, and you seemed to imply the defensive bombard was a requirement. I wrote it out as much for my own understanding as everyone else's. :p
btw, I fortified a worker and let the AI move onto its tile and nothing happened. What were the stats for your sub?

Its odd as to what happened with your worker. Fortified units without a defense are destroyed whenever I use em. But like I said, I am still figuring out all the possible uses and conditions under which this works best.

About the sub, it was the same as a regular sub in C3C with 0 defense, HN, and additional bombardment equal to its defense.

About the defensive bombardment, I originally used the 'resistor' for which I created an immobile, 0 defense, ZOC offensive unint requiring 0 shields and 1 population. The defensive bomabardment was a convenient way to depict resistor actions; though I in no way meant to imply that this is a must.

To each his own, but I would definately like to know how else if not as a defensive unit would anyone use these units. All the units in my mods are population driven; with 1 food required per population; legionaries need 1 population to make, just as worker. And I have the join city option available which is probably why the AI uses it so well. Only very strong units are multiple population driven, Subs need 4 population, Tanks 3, A-Carriers 3 and so on.

I still want to know what happens when you have a unit with 0 Attack and 1 or more Defense.

DPII, if the unit has defense, but not attack, it will act as a normal unit, except that it can't attack.

@ocedius:maybe it does have something to do with bombard, since my worker was simply given the hidden nationality flag and 1 attack.
Slightly OT, but a carrier should require more population than a sub. Subs typically have a crew of about 100, while a single carrier has a crew of thousands :eek:

Thanx for the tip .. guess I'll put Carriers for a pop 5 then. Oh and DPII, hHN or no HN, a defense value other than 0 will cause a fist fight till one of em drops. :)